Speaker1: I just didn’t want to go out in the house. I didn’t want to engage. Started thinking, oh, no one likes me, but I [00:00:05] wasn’t phoning them, you know? So your behaviours changes. And I started to [00:00:10] make excuses. Oh, I can’t go out because of this or I can’t go out because of that. And at that point I [00:00:15] was like, something’s happening. I need to I need to sort myself out. I’ve clearly come to the end of [00:00:20] a carriage in this train, and if I want to go to the next one, I need to address myself.

Speaker2: This [00:00:25] is mind movers moving [00:00:30] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental [00:00:35] professionals. Your hosts Rhona Eskander [00:00:40] and Payman Langroudi. Hi everyone. Welcome to [00:00:45] another episode of Mind Movers. We’re in season two and we’re really excited about the guests coming on today. [00:00:50] Today we have an amazing guest, Paul. Paul Sculfor how I say it right then. [00:00:55]

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. You find the first time.

Speaker2: Okay, fine. Paul and I have known each other. In fact, we didn’t, [00:01:00] you know, spend a lot of time together growing up. But I almost have known you for, like, ten years [00:01:05] because I met through your partner, who’s an incredible woman who is working for an incredible [00:01:10] brand and doing amazing things. And Paul and I got on really well, and I, you know what? One of the conversations [00:01:15] we had, I don’t know if you remember this is about sobriety. So I had told you that I was teetotal and I’d [00:01:20] been teetotal my whole life, and you were also teetotal. So that’s what struck up the conversation. Obviously, it’s [00:01:25] very interesting. Fast forward ten years. I think that you saw that I did a podcast with Arter. [00:01:30]

Speaker1: I did the lovely Arter.

Speaker2: Yeah. You remember Arter. Yeah. So [00:01:35] through that, um, you know, Arthur connected us and obviously I’ve been [00:01:40] following your journey Paul back in the day on Facebook, may I add not just not not just Instagram. [00:01:45] And I’ve obviously noticed, you know, the changes that you’ve made in your life, what you’re doing. [00:01:50] I knew you when you were a model. And then what’s your what’s your transition more into kind of the wellness space? I hate [00:01:55] using the word wellness, but you know what I mean. You know, the space that benefits our mind and our [00:02:00] body better. You know, that’s the way that I like to put it. So welcome, Paul. So lovely to have you very much.

Speaker1: Thank you. Thanks [00:02:05] for coming. Nice to be.

Speaker2: Here. So first of all, I always like to start from the beginning and [00:02:10] you know where it all started. I know about your past, you know, what you were doing before modelling, etc. but do [00:02:15] you want to tell us a little bit about where you came from and how you ended up, you know, where you were [00:02:20] just before, what you’re doing now? Because that’s the future. But you know a little bit about your past growing up.

Speaker1: Cool. [00:02:25] How long have you got? It’s been a while.

Speaker2: Tell us the juicy parts. Hahaha.

Speaker1: There’s [00:02:30] a lot of them too. Um, I am a rare Londoner. Um, born and bred. [00:02:35] Um, I was born in a hospital in [00:02:40] Dagenham, but brought up in Upminster. And if you don’t know, Upminster is a last borough east. [00:02:45] It’s a really lovely little Victorian town golf course, tennis clubs, [00:02:50] lovely. It’s like a little commuter commuter town. Um, and that’s where [00:02:55] I went to school and was brought up there.

Speaker2: Amazing. And then what happened?

Speaker1: Well, [00:03:00] how. It depends how much you want to know. Um, I went to I went to [00:03:05] school there and, um, which was nice. It was a good school, but I had quite [00:03:10] a. An interesting upbringing in the sense that my father [00:03:15] wasn’t around a lot because he was working, so I was brought up most with my mum [00:03:20] and her friends, um, and had a difficult [00:03:25] time sometimes with my with my dad. Um, so as [00:03:30] I, as I was, um, sorry, as a young guy, I was quite, [00:03:35] quite an anxious child. Um, uh, quite a self-conscious child. And [00:03:40] I used to spend a lot of time. We actually lived in the last house, um, in [00:03:45] London before you went to the fields and the woods that broke out into into [00:03:50] Essex. So I spent a lot of time there, and but I was fascinated with [00:03:55] sports cars and motorbikes.

Speaker2: Classic [00:04:00] boy, classic boy.

Speaker1: And I spent a lot of my time designing cars and motorbikes [00:04:05] when I was a kid. Um, and I was of the generation back then where we were the first kids [00:04:10] with BMX. So for our backpacks on and just ride off for hours and, um, [00:04:15] so I spent a lot of time outdoors. I spent a lot of time moving and being [00:04:20] physical. Um, I became a gymnast, which I [00:04:25] loved. I loved it because I liked the feeling of flying and [00:04:30] moving and, um, I would probably have been diagnosed [00:04:35] with ADHD now because one of the kids who couldn’t sit still and, uh, so [00:04:40] I became a gymnast, um, very successful, became a trampolinist, which [00:04:45] I was very successful at. I became a footballer, which I was horrendous at, um, [00:04:50] played in defence, played football. So I think I had a in my mind [00:04:55] at the time, a very normal upbringing. Yeah.

Speaker2: Amazing. So [00:05:00] you don’t think your past necessarily impacted you in a certain way? Childhood? [00:05:05]

Speaker1: It depends what certain way you mean.

Speaker2: Well, you said your father [00:05:10] wasn’t around, so what do you feel your relationships were like then after that? Well. [00:05:15]

Speaker1: The environment I was brought up in, there was a lot of the members, [00:05:20] a lot of drinking. Um, I come from a family of boxers. Um, [00:05:25] my dad’s side were dockers, so it’s a very manly environment. [00:05:30] And, um, I was quite sensitive as a kid, and I found [00:05:35] that quite abrupt. Um, but I learned to live and put that armour on and [00:05:40] be in that environment. Um, but when I, when I [00:05:45] started to box, I first went. My father’s cousin had a boxing club. Two [00:05:50] of them actually had boxing clubs. And, um, I went there when I was 12 and [00:05:55] he basically said, would you like to have a fight? And I said, sure. Yeah. Just not having no idea, [00:06:00] thinking I’ll. I’ll show my dad that I’m okay and just got my ass whipped around the ring [00:06:05] and couldn’t work out how this guy was so nimble on [00:06:10] his feet and could move around so well. Um, because before then, I thought boxing [00:06:15] was an aggressive sport and you had to be, like, really angry. And it’s completely [00:06:20] the opposite. It’s an art form. So after that humbling experience, I asked [00:06:25] my dad if I could box, and he took me to a local boxing club. Um, they’re always in pretty rundown [00:06:30] areas. We went to Dagenham. Um, and I started to box and I [00:06:35] loved it.

Speaker1: I really, really loved it because I realised that, um, when you [00:06:40] become good at something like that, you don’t. It takes away a lot of [00:06:45] your fear. You don’t have to prove anything. But before, I was quite fearful of [00:06:50] angry people and loud voices and stuff because my dad was very loud and had a wonderful temper. [00:06:55] Um, when he used to come in, the dog used to run out of the house. So you knew that, uh, you [00:07:00] know, probably a good time to leave. Um, but I’d like to say that I have [00:07:05] a good relationship with. My dad is a good man. He just had a very hard upbringing and didn’t have the toolkit. [00:07:10] So I found, um, I found it tough early on because I really wanted to [00:07:15] be my dad’s friend and please him when he was around, so I probably [00:07:20] worked a lot in that area. How’s that affected me? Later on in life? I realise you don’t have to do that. [00:07:25] Um, I realised that all the judgement I had on my father, [00:07:30] all I had to do was look at his upbringing. And actually from where he came [00:07:35] from, he’s. He grew tremendously well, but was still probably outdated [00:07:40] for the time when I was born. You know, I.

Speaker2: Think it’s interesting because, you know, I always [00:07:45] ask this question about the past and I do. I [00:07:50] have a therapist. We literally had my therapist on the podcast, and I’m very interested on how your [00:07:55] past shapes who you are. And obviously, as you know, there’s two groups of people, right? [00:08:00] The people that end up being just like their parents and the people that end up being completely opposite to their parents. [00:08:05] And like you said, you know, the older generation, our parents, they don’t [00:08:10] really have they didn’t have the toolkit, you know, like my parents grew up in the Middle East [00:08:15] and, you know, they’re like on survival mode, like country might go into war. Like we don’t have time to be [00:08:20] depressed, you know? And that was the mentality that I grew up with. And I think that understanding [00:08:25] mental health for my parents was more like, if you’ve got depression or anxiety, there’s [00:08:30] an imbalance in your hormones. They didn’t really understand that actually your environment has a huge [00:08:35] impact or your past, etc. but also what I’m finding really interesting [00:08:40] when I hear you speak is about the boxing. And, you know, Payman and I have spoken to [00:08:45] a lot of people in the sports space, particularly men, and recognise how healthy it is to [00:08:50] have a sport. And like you said, stereotypically people like boxing is a really aggressive sport. I even think that, [00:08:55] you know, you see people being beaten up. But I’ve spoken to some boxers and they say actually that [00:09:00] release, you know, that release of energy and emotions in the ring makes [00:09:05] you a much safer and composed person in real life with your emotions. Like, I have a friend, he boxes [00:09:10] every morning first thing when he gets up and he’s like, I have that gun. And he’s like, as a man. He’s like, I [00:09:15] feel that’s actually really important. And he goes. And then later on in the day he goes. I really find it easy to [00:09:20] control my temper as a result of that habit that I’ve formed every day. You know.

Speaker1: I [00:09:25] think I think there’s a difference between boxing training, which is very, very healthy because it helps you [00:09:30] obviously with eye hand coordination, you work every part of your body if you do [00:09:35] it properly and it’s physically tough, but it gives you an appreciation for things. [00:09:40] And, um, the discipline is really nice. And I think when you’re, when you’re in the ring with somebody [00:09:45] and it’s just you and them, it doesn’t matter what goes on on the [00:09:50] outside. Yeah. Um, I remember having a fight if you, if you’re an amateur. Um, [00:09:55] the British Championships are usually held in York Hall in East London. Um, and, [00:10:00] um, I remember having my first fight for the British Championships. I was 15, I [00:10:05] only had seven fights. I won seven, um, but I was fighting a guy from a club, [00:10:10] West Ham club called Repton Park. Which is the best? Repton. Which is the best for guys, really? [00:10:15] Or one of the best. And I was in a small club out in, um, at that time a place called Howard Wood. [00:10:20] Yeah. And um, there was no one else for me to fight because I’d fought everybody. Um, [00:10:25] so they put me straight in for the championships. And, uh, I remember [00:10:30] my old trainer, Roy. He was great. He was like the old guy from Rocky. He’s like, okay, kid, you know, you sit [00:10:35] there, you’re knocking out boxing, but you can beat him.

Speaker1: I know you can. And, uh, it [00:10:40] was interesting. So I fought the guy who was currently the British championship champion, [00:10:45] and he had, I think, 60 something like 64 fights on his belt and won most of them. [00:10:50] And it was really interesting because he was right. The guy outskilled [00:10:55] me, but I hurt him so much that he couldn’t go on [00:11:00] to fight that night. So the idea was that whoever won that you fought again in the evening and then you won the championship. [00:11:05] Um, and he because he was from a big club, [00:11:10] a popular club, he won. But there was an uproar because it was basically I beat beat [00:11:15] the guy and then he had to he couldn’t box for a while because he got really hurt. But then I understood [00:11:20] the industry then because I didn’t win either, because it was this guy’s, you know, had to had to win [00:11:25] at the point. And, um, so I gave up for a while. Yeah, because [00:11:30] I didn’t like the business around it. But as a, as a person, it really was interesting because [00:11:35] on paper, I shouldn’t have been able to win. Yeah. Um, and it was a really nice [00:11:40] battle, I guess, as a young kid that had a lot of anxiety and a lot of fear about things, [00:11:45] to know that I could stand on my own two feet. Yeah, yeah. So, Paul.

Speaker3: Would you say there’s a I [00:11:50] mean, looking at your story becoming one of the world’s top male models? [00:11:55] Yeah.

Speaker2: We want to talk about.

Speaker3: That disconnect between that and the self self-conscious child. So [00:12:00] was boxing the. Yes. Tell us how the modelling started.

Speaker1: The modelling started. [00:12:05] Um, my mother sent off a photograph to a competition which I didn’t know [00:12:10] about. Um, this was in 1991. [00:12:15] I’d been approached prior at the King’s Road. I used to go shopping down there when I was 20, and, [00:12:20] uh, this lady had come up to me and said, oh, you should be a model. And I was like, yeah, sure, whatever. Yeah, just carry [00:12:25] on. Um. And she insisted. She’s like, look, I’m a photographer. Can I take some photos? And I said, sure, [00:12:30] why not? And she literally had a camera. So we took some pictures and, um, she gave me [00:12:35] her phone number, swap phone numbers, and I went back and saw them. It was actually pretty cool. And she took [00:12:40] me into a model agency called So Damn Tough at the time, which was like a kind of [00:12:45] working man sort of place. And, um, and it was all the rugged guys like boxers [00:12:50] and whatever, and, um, they wouldn’t take me on. And then she took me [00:12:55] to models one, where Davina McCall was the head booker at the time, and, [00:13:00] uh, I didn’t have great skin. So she said, well, we’re waiting to see for a little while. [00:13:05] And then he phoned me a month later and said, no, it’s not, it’s not worth you coming in.

Speaker1: So [00:13:10] that was my first experience of model agencies. Then. Um, my [00:13:15] mum sent off this competition and it had you can win a holiday and you get a wardrobe [00:13:20] of clothes. So I thought, that’s perfect, I’ll do that. And I was in hospital at the time having my appendix [00:13:25] out. So as soon as the end of the week came, I just went to this thing. I still had stitches in and [00:13:30] it was at limelight. Penny Lancaster, Rod Stewart’s wife, come third [00:13:35] and, uh, and I won. I couldn’t believe it. There’s all these really handsome, chiselled guys [00:13:40] in there that really looked the business. And I just went in a pair of black jeans and a [00:13:45] white t shirt. I had no idea what it was about. And there was a boxer called Gary Stretch, [00:13:50] who used to be a model. And, um, he was on the thing and we started talking and [00:13:55] basically like, you should win this. You’re a good kid. Anyway, I won it. And, [00:14:00] um, they kept phoning me for a month saying, do you want to do you want to start working? [00:14:05] Do you want to come in?

Speaker2: And we were builder at the time.

Speaker1: So I was never really a builder. [00:14:10] How that come around? I did do construction. I did, um, double [00:14:15] glazing and suspended ceilings. Um, but how that come around is at the time [00:14:20] I wasn’t doing anything. I was probably being a bit of a naughty boy. And they said, what do you do? And I said, oh, I’m [00:14:25] a builder. Yeah, that’s what I do. So first thing I thought of and it just stuck, basically because they [00:14:30] put that in the papers and um, I finally went up there [00:14:35] and went for a casting, which I had no idea about and got the [00:14:40] job. And that was my first introduction. It was it was very, very foreign to me. [00:14:45] I had no idea what I was doing, but I had a wonderful agent, um, called Tandy, and [00:14:50] she’s like a pit bull. And she’s like, right, kid? What you’re [00:14:55] wearing, you need to change. She took me shopping. She said, this is what you’re wearing now. This is your [00:15:00] new style, and this is how you have to be when you turn up on the job. Um, so that was the first.

Speaker3: How [00:15:05] long did it take from that to catwalks and model shoots?

Speaker1: And [00:15:10] it was a very short period of time, I think. I think probably [00:15:15] it took me about two months to get my first job, which was a magazine. Um, [00:15:20] and then I remember getting a Speedo job for trunks up in Manchester. [00:15:25] And then after that I did a thing called The Clothes Show Life. So [00:15:30] funny enough, Warren Warren. Now, is it Warren Avenue? Where are you from? Warwick? Warwick Avenue. Um, [00:15:35] someone used to have a house there that used to cast him from. And she would do [00:15:40] the shows. So I went to this casting. She said, can you can you dance? I was like, yeah, of course [00:15:45] I can dance. She goes, okay, we’re doing a clothes show live. I’m like, yeah, fine, whatever. And when I got there, I didn’t realise [00:15:50] it was choreography because I’ve been a gymnast and trampolines, I could move, so I [00:15:55] basically blagged the job. And then the next thing we’re doing eight shows a day up in Manchester or wherever it was and, [00:16:00] uh, learning how to dance with the other guys and stuff. And it was good.

Speaker2: Question [00:16:05] for you, though, because I hear this, um, do you think that you [00:16:10] just fell into it with modelling, or do you feel that subconsciously I hate using [00:16:15] the word, but everyone loves it. So buzzword manifest, did you feel that you subconsciously manifested? And [00:16:20] obviously manifesting is thinking about something that you really want and then, you know, it [00:16:25] kind of comes your way when there’s preparation and opportunity, and I guess we can call that luck. [00:16:30] Or do you genuinely feel like these opportunities just came your way and you thought, oh, actually, [00:16:35] mine must be quite good looking. You know, a lot of people are asking me to do this, you know. What do you think?

Speaker1: It was [00:16:40] two points to that, I think. I never thought about [00:16:45] it before I met. I saw one guy once on Davies Street [00:16:50] in Mayfair who looked like a model, thought, wow, he looks impressive. He looks really cool. And and my [00:16:55] mum used to get a catalogue and there was one guy in the catalogue in the motorbike section that always [00:17:00] used to wear the leather leather gear, and he looked really cool and his name was Zayn MacDonald and I did my [00:17:05] second job with him, which was bizarre. But when I started, um, [00:17:10] I would say that I manifested it in the sense that [00:17:15] I really wanted to do well, and I really wanted [00:17:20] to do well was because my upbringing, we didn’t do much. It was I felt quite bored with it. It was [00:17:25] very local, in a small, small kind of London mentality. So [00:17:30] as soon as I started to work abroad and meet different people from different places, it blew my mind and I [00:17:35] was so hungry just to have the knowledge of life that yeah, I would, [00:17:40] I would. I basically travelled for eight years and stayed no [00:17:45] more than like two months in one country. So I’d be in Paris knocking on doors. [00:17:50]

Speaker1: And back then you would literally physically go to see a client knock [00:17:55] on the door, give me your book, have a chat, leave and go and see another one. It [00:18:00] was such a busy business, you would literally go and see 8 or 9 clients a day. So I’d see 8 or [00:18:05] 9 clients a day in Paris, and then the jobs you would have a month or two [00:18:10] months full of jobs happened, or a couple of weeks. So I’d seen everybody. So I’d say to my agent, right, [00:18:15] I’m going to Milan, I’ll do the same there, and I’d work. And then from there I’d go [00:18:20] to Athens, or I’d go back to London, or I’d fly to New York. So I constantly drove [00:18:25] the business myself as much as possible, so I wouldn’t just sit there and think, [00:18:30] well, nothing’s going on this week. I’ll just hang out. I’d phone up and say, where’s [00:18:35] busy? What’s the market doing over there or over there? So sure, I manifest it in the sense [00:18:40] that I wanted to do it, but I put the work in. I don’t think [00:18:45] that you can sit in your house, desire something, and not do something about it, and it will happen.

Speaker2: You [00:18:50] know what? And I also think there’s something to be said about self-belief as well. I was listening to a manifesting [00:18:55] podcast the other day because I’m going through a transition stage myself, and [00:19:00] someone said that you could say, like, you think you really want something, but there’s also [00:19:05] a part of you that thinks you don’t deserve it and you actually prevent yourself from getting it. And I thought [00:19:10] that was a really interesting point as well. I’m not saying you should be self-congratulatory and say like, I’m [00:19:15] the most amazing person in the world, but it’s also having that innate belief, which is really hard, that I deserve [00:19:20] to do well because I’m willing to put in the work and I’m willing for good things to come my way. And I think [00:19:25] that that’s a really important part of it as well.

Speaker1: I think there’s another part to that. Yeah. I [00:19:30] think, you know, some people believe that they desire something, but they actually [00:19:35] really don’t because they think they either have to have it or they think [00:19:40] that that they would be appreciated if they have it. Um, so I think there’s another element [00:19:45] to that. Yeah. So I really wanted to be an actor at one point. Um, and [00:19:50] I studied for three years, Myers and Technique and I went into the industry, and it was [00:19:55] mostly because people were saying, oh, you’re great. You’ve done so well, you’ve done so many TV commercials [00:20:00] and worked a lot of directors. You should do TV and film. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, okay, maybe I should do this. [00:20:05] And I lived in the States, like I said, and I went to castings and auditions [00:20:10] for movies. And then I realised it’s a completely different business [00:20:15] from modelling. And I had I was very fortunate because I’d done so well [00:20:20] in the modelling. I knew people I could just go straight to another agent, which I did. So I bridged across, [00:20:25] um, but it’s a different business. It’s completely and utterly a different business. So I [00:20:30] managed to do I actually sat there and I said, um, to [00:20:35] the universe, let me get three movies. To [00:20:40] see if I really like it and to see if I am a good [00:20:45] actor. I can do a job. And literally within this six months after I had had [00:20:50] three movies come up, which was bizarre, and I did them all, and [00:20:55] at the time I was going through a change, but I really was observing [00:21:00] what was going on, so it wasn’t when I started to model, I was just blindly doing it and really [00:21:05] pushing to to get the job where with acting, I was unsure if [00:21:10] I wanted to do it properly.

Speaker1: So I was watching how it worked and whole process [00:21:15] and enjoyed engaging and doing what I was doing in the movies. And I had the experience. Um, [00:21:20] and I remember we had the premiere in Madrid of this movie [00:21:25] I did called Didi Hollywood. And, uh, and it was amazing because we came [00:21:30] out and we being a film star for five minutes and we were signing autographs, we got a really good picture of [00:21:35] it down the thing, and I used to have a big market in Spain anyway for modelling, so I had quite a following [00:21:40] and it was just and it was just I kind of experienced it as like being a movie star for this [00:21:45] moment. I thought that was amazing. And I went back upstairs to my room in the hotel and just sat [00:21:50] and had a cup of tea, didn’t go to the after party and I was like, that was amazing. But I’m not sure if that’s what I want to do for [00:21:55] a living.

Speaker2: Interesting.

Speaker3: What about, um, going from the East End [00:22:00] boxing? Yes. To suddenly being this super successful model. [00:22:05] Did you have loads of sort of pinch yourself moments? Like what? What what comes what comes [00:22:10] to mind when I say, you know, amazing moments in that period?

Speaker1: Oh, there’s definitely [00:22:15] amazing moments. But I think putting all the effort in, it wasn’t like, I don’t [00:22:20] know, I’ve never won lottery. Someone winning the lottery. Oh that’s great, I’m rich now. Yeah. It wasn’t a switch [00:22:25] like that. I still had to learn what I was doing, but there was moments I remember [00:22:30] my first job in America was down in San Diego. I’d [00:22:35] never been to America before, and we were staying in this beautiful hotel, amazing production [00:22:40] team that took us all to the incredible locations. And [00:22:45] then I’m working next to some really cool California surfer dudes, and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. [00:22:50] That for me was was incredible. And then there’s been jobs. I worked with, [00:22:55] um, incredible photographer called Bruce Weber, and my first job with him [00:23:00] was the Banana Republic campaign. And, um, they were just trying to bring the [00:23:05] company up, and there were 60 models. We went down to Montauk, um, [00:23:10] in Long Island. It was beautiful. And in this $20 million [00:23:15] home, all winnebagos around, food everywhere, amazing [00:23:20] cars. And I was like, wow, this is just another level of life.

Speaker2: Having [00:23:25] said that, though, you’ve obviously, you know, there was a huge transition into your lifestyle. Did [00:23:30] your mental health ever plummet and did you ever use coping mechanisms? [00:23:35] We also know that the Hollywood lifestyle and the fame and the fortune, you know, comes with a dark [00:23:40] side, and there’s certainly a massive element of self-soothing, you know, where people escape, [00:23:45] you know, their own reality, even though it’s meant to be on the outside, like this perfect reality. So [00:23:50] was there a transition in your mental health at any point?

Speaker1: I [00:23:55] think I realised early on that there’s a show and the show is, you know, when [00:24:00] you see movies, all you see as a, as a normal person is the red carpet, the lights, the [00:24:05] stuff. And you don’t see that there’s been four years of work going into that. So [00:24:10] I think by that time I knew there was that side of it, but I didn’t realise how cut [00:24:15] throat it was. And for me, I used to come, I was very close to my mum. [00:24:20] So when I was modelling initially I used to fly back always to sit with her and see her and [00:24:25] I found that very grounding and reassuring because you can lose yourself very easy, you [00:24:30] know, if you’re away from your stable, whether it be a family or certain friends, you can definitely lose yourself. [00:24:35] Um, self-soothing. Self-soothing. I don’t know about that. I ended up drinking [00:24:40] a lot and partying a lot. Um, and I think that was trying to fill [00:24:45] a void, but I didn’t know what the void was for at the time. So I would work [00:24:50] incredibly hard and party just as hard. Yeah.

Speaker2: What [00:24:55] do you think the void was now in hindsight?

Speaker1: Probably [00:25:00] a misconnection with myself. Yeah. I think in, in, um, a [00:25:05] lot of times in life we’re taught or we see other people’s behaviours and we [00:25:10] marketed that if you have this handbag or if you have this car, if you live in, [00:25:15] if you live in London, and then when you’re in London, if you live in this area and if you’re in that area, it’s living in this street and [00:25:20] then it’s what building you live at and what apartment you live in that building. So it can go down to whatever. [00:25:25] And that’s endless because then it’s okay, I’ve got the apartment, but do I have the gaudy wallpaper? [00:25:30] Have I got, you know, whatever kitchen. And it’s just it’s never ending. So [00:25:35] for me, it was about, um, I studied tai [00:25:40] chi for five years when I lived in LA. Um, I learnt a lot about meditation. [00:25:45] I did lots of yoga. I did a lot of time on my own. So this is what. [00:25:50] This is how I learned to deal with stuff. Um, I [00:25:55] used to. I always loved girlfriends and having a lot of time with people. So I [00:26:00] started to get agitated. If I stayed in a hotel room on my own somewhere and I was like, what [00:26:05] is that agitation? Why am I agitated? I should be fine and I needed to be around [00:26:10] people. So what I did, which I wouldn’t recommend. I took a year off [00:26:15] dating, texting any girls, looking at any girls, and [00:26:20] if I did engage at work, I was very polite but [00:26:25] just short and was not going to engage in any flirting or anything like that. So for a year I [00:26:30] spent really kind of on my own. Yeah. Didn’t watch TV, watched some [00:26:35] movies, read books. And it was really interesting. And [00:26:40] from doing that, I realised that, um, I found myself [00:26:45] through the fear of doing what I didn’t want to do. I didn’t want to be on my own. So I thought, I [00:26:50] better be on my own. Yeah. So spending that time gives you the space to see [00:26:55] what the truth is.

Speaker2: Do you know, I think that people have such a fear of being alone [00:27:00] and being on their own. And I see it even with like people that I know in my immediate like friendship [00:27:05] group or people, and they’re like, they come out, they’re serial monogamists, as I would call it, or they always [00:27:10] have, like the next person lined up before they fully break up with another person and they [00:27:15] might preach like, oh, I want to be on my own. I have to spend time on my own. But it gives them such intense [00:27:20] anxiety and like, well, I can’t help it that this person has come along because it’s actually a really difficult thing because [00:27:25] it forces you like, I love spending time by myself. Like I’m happy to have the house to myself, [00:27:30] as you said, like put a cup of tea, read a book, etc. but I [00:27:35] also need to feel that there’s someone there. Like I really struggled to be on my own. [00:27:40] And I think it’s some it’s something that people don’t really talk about or are happy to admit to because as you said, [00:27:45] it’s really sitting with yourself. And now that we have our mobile phones and our devices, we’re never [00:27:50] truly alone, you know? Because even if you, for example, don’t go on dates or don’t flirt with people, you’ve [00:27:55] got access to dating apps or Instagram, or you can check out people that’s not being on your own.

Speaker1: There’s a [00:28:00] difference between being diverted from yourself and being distracted. Correct, to being on your own. [00:28:05] Yep. And I really recommend, um, I really recommend it [00:28:10] because we had it’s a blind fear. So you’re willing [00:28:15] as a person to date the wrong person, uh, for however long [00:28:20] in the wrong circumstances. So you’re putting yourself second and wondering [00:28:25] why you’re not happy, and wondering why you have to be distracted to pick up the phone or whatever because [00:28:30] you can’t see yourself. And if you sit with yourself, it’s you. [00:28:35] It doesn’t matter where you are, who you. If you’re still with yourself, you can be in a room. I [00:28:40] used to have a friend of mine who’s the best conversationalist. You’d go to any party, and he’s talking to everyone. And I [00:28:45] used to think, how does he do that? And and I thought, oh, [00:28:50] I’m actually, I thought I was shy as a kid. I realised I was self-conscious, [00:28:55] which is a difference. And what that means is if we’re sitting here and I’m thinking, [00:29:00] Payman doesn’t like my shirt, oh, God, I shouldn’t wear a shirt he likes. Oh my god, or, you know, [00:29:05] or whatever it may be. I am separating myself [00:29:10] from you guys by thought, even in the same room. So [00:29:15] I’m in here while you’re out there. Yeah. So. If [00:29:20] you if you’re self-conscious or you’re thinking like that, you are separate. Whether you’re in a [00:29:25] room with 100 people or no people. So if you get to know yourself, then you get to know your [00:29:30] thought process. Then you can do something about it and then you can join everyone in.

Speaker3: Would [00:29:35] you say, would you say, that’s the it’s a crazy question, right? The secret to happiness. [00:29:40] I’ve been sort of grappling, you know, it took me 45 years to work out the difference [00:29:45] between sort of pleasure and happiness, but now it’s something I’ve really [00:29:50] been hating going towards. But my conclusion is lower expectations. [00:29:55] You’re talking about be be comfortable with yourself. Yeah, [00:30:00] but what I learned, maybe my problem is expectations. And your problem is being alone. That [00:30:05] thing.

Speaker1: Well, I’m, uh, a recovering recovering addict. Right? [00:30:10] Um. So sorry.

Speaker2: Can you to be more specific, as in, like, was it the alcohol or [00:30:15] was it substance abuse or what do you feel, what was the addiction for you. So I’ll.

Speaker1: Tell you. So [00:30:20] being a recovering addict, right. Um, you realise that alcohol, [00:30:25] drugs, relationship, shopping or food are but a symptom [00:30:30] of someone who’s an addict? So if you have a cold, you [00:30:35] have a runny nose. Generally, if you get rid of the runny nose, you still have a cold. [00:30:40] But if you get rid of the cold, you run a runny nose. So there. But a symptom [00:30:45] like we spoke earlier about the phones are distracting because I can’t sit with myself. So, [00:30:50] um, it happiness. It depends what your understanding [00:30:55] of of of happiness is. There’s a difference between excitement, joy, [00:31:00] elation, getting a hit of dopamine from something, or being happy [00:31:05] with yourself. And how I look at that is that I don’t want to be somewhere [00:31:10] else, or be someone else, or be in a different space [00:31:15] than I am at that moment. That’s happiness.

Speaker3: For me. Meditation [00:31:20] helps a lot with that sort of.

Speaker1: It helps a lot, but it also and people [00:31:25] misunderstand what meditation is. Meditation is not stopping your thinking. So you’re in a Zen place at [00:31:30] the beginning. You have to observe your thinking. Therefore you’re separating yourself from your thinking. [00:31:35] That’s right. So I can be sitting here and I could say, I did this podcast [00:31:40] and I was really uncomfortable because of whatever. Or I can say I had a [00:31:45] thought that I was really uncomfortable, but I was okay with that. Yeah, it’s a separation. That’s a big [00:31:50] difference.

Speaker2: When you were talking about happiness and, you know, being comfortable [00:31:55] within yourself. I got asked yesterday, I was on a podcast and they were talking about body confidence. [00:32:00] Um, and I talk about my journey with body confidence. I had a difficult time at university. [00:32:05] I was always in with the IT crowd, you know, and having a great time, but I always [00:32:10] felt like I didn’t quite fit in. I came I come from a middle eastern background. It was a very like [00:32:15] public school boarding school mentality, and I never quite fitted in. And there were all of these different [00:32:20] judgements on the way that I look, and I went through a very like sad period of restrictive eating where I [00:32:25] was severely underweight and very unhappy, but also at the same time, because people [00:32:30] would congratulate me on me being the smallest version of myself. I felt better because I got that validation, [00:32:35] you know, it was a kind of horrible relationship that caused a lot of [00:32:40] internal conflict. Anyway, now I’m fine. I would say I’m fine in terms of like, I love food, I [00:32:45] enjoy food, I exercise, and I get on with it. But the question was asked, are you body confident? [00:32:50] And I said, I don’t think I’ll ever be body confident, but I am okay with that. You [00:32:55] know, as an I manage now as an I manage my thoughts and when I have a negative thought or when I have people commenting [00:33:00] on the way that I look on my parents and my body, I manage it. Whereas before I would [00:33:05] go into a state of total turmoil and I don’t know, like maybe you have the answer. [00:33:10] Like, do you ever overcome the issues that you’ve experienced? [00:33:15] You know, like you said, with addiction, like you’re aware that you had it, you’ve got coping mechanisms, but [00:33:20] do you think that you can ever fully get over those things.

Speaker1: Get over the experience [00:33:25] from the past, or get over them currently?

Speaker2: I suppose in a way that, you know, could your addiction [00:33:30] ever be triggered, or does the thought ever just stay kind of like prevalent in your mind sometimes? [00:33:35] Do you ever think about it? Or you’re just like, I don’t even think about it. I’m totally over it.

Speaker1: Two [00:33:40] things you said about being body confident. Are you confident but unconfident about the body? [00:33:45] They’re two separate things. Or if you’re a confident person, what’s encompassed in that confidence? For [00:33:50] me, I know that coming from a place of addiction [00:33:55] where everything is extreme. So when I was 13, um, [00:34:00] I’ve got pictures of me like 13, 14, 15. I was like 4 or 5% [00:34:05] body fat, ripped, um, completely shredded and looked amazing. I was very [00:34:10] confident about myself and everything. Probably cocky as a kid because you don’t know the difference. Um, [00:34:15] um, and. If you’re [00:34:20] it depends what you’re focussed on. So if you believe if I believe that my it’s my body [00:34:25] is everything. And as long as I look good, everything will be fine, then that’s a misunderstanding of what’s going on. [00:34:30] Also about what you said about we all have different differences [00:34:35] in life, right? But you have to look at the similarities. If you can find a similarity, [00:34:40] then you’ve got a common goal. So being a Londoner, [00:34:45] um, um, from a working class or a normal background, [00:34:50] I could pull out so many things where I, I could have been the victim of stuff. [00:34:55] Um, but I choose not to, but certain things can bother [00:35:00] me. Um, about that. Whereas you could turn round and [00:35:05] say, I was absolutely stunning. I had beautiful hair, I was fit, I was great. Most [00:35:10] people are uncomfortable going to uni or college, etc.

Speaker1: etc. and I’m very lucky that, [00:35:15] um, coming from my background in this country and then going to be very successful [00:35:20] and going to that place of study, which was amazing. And my friend group is incredible. [00:35:25] It’s an achievement where some people might not be able to even go to a [00:35:30] school or something. So you can turn it all around. Sure. Um, there [00:35:35] is a pressure of how we look as trust me, especially in the modelling world, and [00:35:40] it was very sad. I worked, I worked not long ago in Turkey, and there [00:35:45] was a girl who came on the job and she looked at, I mean, I [00:35:50] saw her pictures and she was stunning. When she walked on, I thought, I thought she just looked [00:35:55] very, very unwell and unhappy. And you can always tell in the eyes. And I sat down and spoke to her and basically [00:36:00] she said that her Milanese agent had told her that she’s got to lose weight and size [00:36:05] and this is how you do it. And I said, well, what’s this? Oh gosh, she [00:36:10] was having coffee, cigarettes, water and apples. And she that’s all she’d had for two weeks, could you imagine? [00:36:15] And I said to her, listen, you’ve got it’s not worth it. Just eat. There’s other ways [00:36:20] of doing stuff, but eat. So there is a problem in that industry in that way. [00:36:25]

Speaker2: And this is recent, right. Because I thought perhaps the narrative had changed a little bit with them. No. So [00:36:30] do you think that still think that the high end modelling industry is very much what it [00:36:35] was, for example, in the 90s?

Speaker1: Yeah. If you go to a job, if you’re [00:36:40] not, um, and the clothes have got smaller. So when I started I was a bit small [00:36:45] and I’ve got big shoulders always have done. Um, I like them, I’m quite proud of them. [00:36:50] But I got a lot of. Oh, your back’s too wide or your shoulders are too tall. I haven’t got I [00:36:55] was too short. I did my first show in Milan and it wasn’t on a catwalk. It was around the room [00:37:00] of chairs. And it was for Catherine, Catherine, hamlet. And as I walked out, this guy literally went, [00:37:05] oh, he’s sure, isn’t he? I thought, I’m six foot. Bear in mind the guy in front [00:37:10] was probably 511 and had heels on them behind. I was like, oh. So I started to [00:37:15] see that. Yeah. And it really, it really does affect you. Um, [00:37:20] but that’s that hasn’t changed. So when I started people were 40, 42 chest. [00:37:25] Now they’re 36, 38. So I went to [00:37:30] see someone the other day and all they had was sample sizes. I’m like 41, 42 [00:37:35] now. Um, I’m like, I’m not going to fit in those. Yeah.

Speaker2: And what was their response? [00:37:40]

Speaker1: Oh, right. Um, okay. Well, maybe you can try the jacket on. I was like, I’m not going to fit in it.

Speaker2: Yeah, [00:37:45] yeah.

Speaker1: So now I’m like, if it doesn’t fit, it doesn’t doesn’t work. But if I still do modelling. So [00:37:50] I did a wonderful shoot for Christian Dior for The Rack magazine and I said, guys [00:37:55] don’t get sample sizes. No one fits in them unless you’re really young and slim. [00:38:00] And I’m not. I’m quite a strong guy. So they just got my size and we did a wonderful shoot. That was [00:38:05] it.

Speaker2: So the the the onus on like the your looks and your appearance, [00:38:10] did that impact your mental health in any way? Because what I always think is [00:38:15] like, gosh, online particularly like with the younger generation, they place [00:38:20] such an importance on a depreciating asset. I mean, now we recognise [00:38:25] and I believe you know, that all stages of life, we’re beautiful in different ways. And I genuinely [00:38:30] believe that like 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, there’s different, you know, there’s different like [00:38:35] cycles in your life. But I worry because people that create a [00:38:40] platform or go into industries where it’s all about the way that you look, I [00:38:45] worry, you know, for the mental health, as you said, because this is an asset that that, you know, changes [00:38:50] and diminishes.

Speaker1: Yeah. You you got to remember that not everyone’s [00:38:55] like that, right? It is a beauty industry. And there are things that [00:39:00] sell and don’t sell. But look at Kate Moss. She’s tiny. [00:39:05] Look at Oliver Cheshire. You know, Oliver Cheshire had just changed clothing. Um he’s [00:39:10] small. He. No one would work with him. And my agent, the same one who helped me, was like, I work [00:39:15] with Olly. He’s amazing. I think he’s like 510. Yeah, the guy smashed it. I’m really well, [00:39:20] because he had someone around him pushing him that had a different vision. So it depends [00:39:25] on your level. If you’re general, you’ve got to fit into something. But as you make a name [00:39:30] for yourself, as you become more talented, what you do and it’s not just looks, you have to a you [00:39:35] have to know what you’re doing. Um.

Speaker3: What is that? What do you mean [00:39:40] within the shoot?

Speaker1: Yeah. You have to know. Yeah. I mean, it’s less now because you’re digital, [00:39:45] so you can, like, change things after. But initially. Yeah, we use on film. [00:39:50] You did one Polaroid. You got that shot right. You would [00:39:55] do eight shots a day, right. So you needed to know as a model where what [00:40:00] material are you wearing. How does that. Hang on your body. What is the energy [00:40:05] you’re putting through? So everything comes from the eyes, like acting. So what are [00:40:10] you portraying? What’s the story you’re doing? So there’s a lot to it. If you want to do really well, you can stand there [00:40:15] and look angular if you want, and just look at happy in your eyes and you’ll you’ll get away [00:40:20] with it. But to be really good, to really go to the top of that game, you have to be an artist [00:40:25] in knowing what you’re doing, what works, how do you move?

Speaker3: And the creative saying, [00:40:30] now I want sultry or whatever, whatever the particular mood is, and you’ve got to try. [00:40:35] And I mean, you must be really good at this, right? Because for years you were right at the top of that game. [00:40:40] But I think the question you were asking was more about, you know, losing looks. Yeah. And [00:40:45] you see that amongst the women more. Right? Yeah.

Speaker2: Because men obviously are celebrated, as you said, for ageing. [00:40:50] And I have a friend actually who’s a model now, I’m sure you know him. And he smashes it with his jobs [00:40:55] like Hugo Woods. Yeah, yeah. So he’s like someone that I’ve known for many years, [00:41:00] and I always see him on the kind of like older grey beard, grey like campaigns, which is like the silver [00:41:05] fox, you know, type thing. And but women don’t [00:41:10] obviously. I mean, Payman and I talk about this all the time, like, women are celebrated for their beauty in their 20s. [00:41:15] If they’re lucky, they might still have it in their 30s, you know, whatever the going says. So. [00:41:20] And obviously the industry, I don’t see women really in that. You get either the really young [00:41:25] ones or the really old ones. I don’t see the in-between market at all.

Speaker1: Well, you’re selling a dream, aren’t [00:41:30] you? In reality, um, I have have a [00:41:35] female friend of mine. She’s 80 and she’s so beautiful, so beautiful. And [00:41:40] beauty really is from within. You can have a really handsome guy with an eight pack. [00:41:45] Best body you’ve ever seen.

Speaker2: Ever.

Speaker1: And you know, he’s got no personality. He might [00:41:50] be a narcissist. Whatever it is, it doesn’t matter at the end of the day, especially [00:41:55] in relationships, because once you shut that door, it’s just you guys and you’ve got to get on. [00:42:00] And beauty really is from within. Like, I really learned that in my industry regarding [00:42:05] age, um, it’s a young industry, but I think [00:42:10] the grey fox is catching up for men because people don’t have money [00:42:15] before 35. Generally, I’m generalising around the world to 65, [00:42:20] and if you go and ask a lot of guys in a members club in London or whatever and [00:42:25] say, can you relate to this picture of someone who’s 19 versus no, [00:42:30] they had there was no correlation. And I think the industry lost itself for some time [00:42:35] because it was very it was only ecosystem, and it never looked out to see what people [00:42:40] would really want. As you get older and you look at pictures [00:42:45] of yourself again, I’m generalising. It’s a desire to be, oh, I’m so young. I was actually [00:42:50] really cool. I could move around. So there’s a romantic idea where I think ladies [00:42:55] want to be beautiful and keep their beauty.

Speaker1: But if you learn to [00:43:00] grow as a person and you have more interest than that, [00:43:05] and you have more value than that, then you should you should change. Because I think in life [00:43:10] I can only speak from a guy’s point of view early on. It’s all about material how much money we can get, how many [00:43:15] women? Well, for some, yeah. And can I date these people? Can I, [00:43:20] can I go to that place? I’m going to this beach. I’m going to that party. I’m wearing this outfit. It’s amazing. [00:43:25] Then after, as you grow older or grow up, um, that wears [00:43:30] off and you realise that’s not the answer and then you go for [00:43:35] relationships. How do I relate to people? How can I have a nice conversation or have fun [00:43:40] with people? And then after that, it’s experiences in life where we’re going to travel together, what we’re going [00:43:45] to do. So I think unless you change your, um, [00:43:50] thought process or understanding, then you’re not going to grow. Then you’re going to you’re missing this. You’re missing the [00:43:55] whole trick.

Speaker2: Do you think that when [00:44:00] you entered the life of sobriety, did your friendship group and the people [00:44:05] that you hung out with inevitably change, and the type of people that you found engaging in the [00:44:10] conversations that you were having? Yeah.

Speaker1: Absolutely. Because [00:44:15] you kind of find your tribe. If you’re a soccer player, you’re probably hanging around footballers because you can talk about [00:44:20] it, you know, play football or boxing or whatever, or dentists, you probably hang out.

Speaker2: I’m [00:44:25] joking. Joking. Yeah. Um.

Speaker1: Because [00:44:30] you can relate to something. If you’re partying and you like going out, your friends are going [00:44:35] to be partiers. It’s as simple as that. And you’re going to go out. And that was crazy last night and do what you did. [00:44:40] And I think everyone should go out and enjoy themselves 100%. But at one point [00:44:45] you kind of grow out of it, or there’s those that don’t grow out of it and they’re just, you see [00:44:50] the guy who like 55 years old, 60 in the middle, you know, in the corner of a club just trying to and you’re like, please. [00:44:55] Yeah. And bless them. There’s people that still do that because they’re trying to capture that [00:45:00] past thing again. So you have to grow individually. But for sobriety? Yeah. For me, [00:45:05] I had to change a lot of friends. Not that I made the decision to change, but [00:45:10] if you’re going to a party and you’re not drinking, people get bored of it because you’re not on [00:45:15] the same wavelength. You know, I disagree.

Speaker2: Okay, I’ll tell you why. Because [00:45:20] I’ve been teetotal my whole life. So I tried a drink when I was [00:45:25] like 13, when everyone else started drinking and I was like, I actually don’t like the taste of this. And then when [00:45:30] I saw more of my friends spiral out of control, lose themselves, become alter egos, [00:45:35] etc., I was like, I don’t like this. And then I had enough self-awareness, even [00:45:40] at that young age, to be like, you know what? I think [00:45:45] that I actually have anxiety and I actually don’t think [00:45:50] alcohol will be conducive nor drugs to my anxiety. But I continued to go [00:45:55] out because I loved music and I loved moving my body, and I loved all those things, [00:46:00] and I managed to stay up with other people. But having said that, because I never drank, there [00:46:05] was a never an expectation for me to be on the same wavelength as them. I think the only challenge was [00:46:10] dating because when I would go on dates, people be like, oh, she’s not drinking and it’s classic, can I buy you [00:46:15] a drink? So I had to do the like, throw the shot over my shoulder thing, like, you know.

Speaker3: Drunk on life, though, you know [00:46:20] that, you know, some people, some people are repressed a little bit. So [00:46:25] it takes getting drunk to be themselves. Totally. So I meant.

Speaker1: I meant an extreme about [00:46:30] that. You’re right about being on a different wavelength when your friends. Yeah. Oh, my God, I love.

Speaker3: You so much. It’s so [00:46:35] nice. Yeah.

Speaker1: Don’t tell me you’re on the same wavelength if you’re out dancing and having fun. She’s like. [00:46:40]

Speaker3: She’s like that when she’s sober, though, that’s calm down.

Speaker1: That’s different. So yeah, you [00:46:45] can’t be on the same wavelength as someone who’s crying into their drink and stuff. You’re either going to be care [00:46:50] for them or you’re going to go, okay, you’re okay. But there’s difference between what I mean, [00:46:55] I was generalising from going, I love to go out and party and dance and stuff with friends. That’s different. I can [00:47:00] do that. But at one point when they are of a really slurring or they’ve gone on to substances, [00:47:05] then I’m out. No, you’re.

Speaker2: Right, you’re right. Like and then there is that point. I mean, I went to the very [00:47:10] famous Chiltern Firehouse. It’s my favourite after I did my last podcast with you. It’s my favourite, [00:47:15] um, hangout place. And I always say it’s like going to a Great Gatsby party [00:47:20] because you go and you see everyone that’s meant to be seen and you see the celebrities [00:47:25] and you see, and I love to go as an observer because as I said, like Great Gatsby, everyone’s [00:47:30] there and they want to be there, but no one actually cares about anyone else that’s there. And if someone died, [00:47:35] no one would be at their funeral, you know? So I think it’s such a strong analogy. And when [00:47:40] I was there, I, you know, saw all these different people, but again, like they [00:47:45] start going on to the substances and their personas change. The thing is.

Speaker3: We talked [00:47:50] we kind of talked about this. You don’t see plant medicine or some, uh, mushroom [00:47:55] tea as substances. Yeah, but they are substances. Yeah.

Speaker2: No, no, [00:48:00] no. But the thing is, I disagree because I think that ultimately there are substances [00:48:05] that I said are used for self-soothing and can be abused. And then there is plant medicine. You use the word [00:48:10] medicine and it’s no. But personally, for myself, as I said to you, like, [00:48:15] if.

Speaker3: I mean, as he was saying, it could be shopping.

Speaker2: Totally. And I’m sure in your mouth [00:48:20] I’m sure you’ve read the work of Gabor, mate. I always bring him up on this. But Gabor would say that most [00:48:25] people have some form of addiction, and it could be an addiction to watching the Twilight series, or [00:48:30] it could be an addiction. We all have some kind of addiction, and that’s why he really pushes society [00:48:35] to re-evaluate the way that we treat addicts and addiction itself. And it’s super interesting. I follow [00:48:40] his work very clearly, and I get what you’re saying. But also I’m interested because from a medical [00:48:45] point of view, I don’t think that we integrate enough medicines that are actually conducive [00:48:50] to our health. You know, the type of medicines that pharma, for example, want to give to [00:48:55] people are based on them being reliant and addicted to them, whereas something like plant medicines, from the research that [00:49:00] I’ve done, you don’t need to be addicted to those substances, you know. Yes, there are highly addictive [00:49:05] to be.

Speaker3: Addicted to anything, right? Yeah.

Speaker2: Yeah, totally. But it’s also about intention, as you said. You know, we’ve [00:49:10] had people on this podcast that have talked about doing ayahuasca as we’ve discussed, but and there are [00:49:15] people that abuse ayahuasca. I meet guys at Chiltern Firehouse. They’re like, I’ve done my 18th ceremony. I’m like, okay, great. You’re [00:49:20] still like messing around here with million women, like living a hedonistic lifestyle. [00:49:25] But the point is, and then there’s people that go there because they’ve had trauma. They want to confront [00:49:30] their demons. They want to overcome stuff. So I think intention is a really important part of all of this with anything.

Speaker1: I totally [00:49:35] agree. But I would say that the word addiction is [00:49:40] if you’re not addicted to Netflix, you’re happy to sit down and have a gelato and [00:49:45] watch. Netflix is comfortable and you really want to see what happens in the next one. But you’re not going to go and rob someone [00:49:50] to watch Netflix or murder. So there’s a big difference is [00:49:55] a big, big difference. And in a place like Los Angeles, people would [00:50:00] shoot you in a. Neighbourhood to get money or something to go and get drugs. That’s [00:50:05] a that’s addiction at its worst. That’s at worst. Or there’s a wonderful [00:50:10] store near us that has some beautiful bottles of wine, and one guy keeps breaking [00:50:15] the windows and running in there to take it and run off. That’s an alcoholic who has addiction problems. Yeah, [00:50:20] there’s a difference between it’s really it’s really a big difference. And people should [00:50:25] stop using the word addiction for when they’re not addicted to something because [00:50:30] they’re not putting their whole family. You know, they’re not saying, I’m not going to feed my child [00:50:35] because I’m watching this movie. Let it wait. They won’t do that. That’s not addicted. That’s [00:50:40] really enthusiastic about something. They want to see it. Yeah, there’s a big difference. And I really believe [00:50:45] intention. What you’re saying is, is, is a whole subject, [00:50:50] um, that people can see that look like they’re doing the same actions in life, but [00:50:55] the intention is the key to what they’re doing.

Speaker2: But you’ve used the word addicted. So do you think that [00:51:00] what at some point your your well-being and [00:51:05] you know, the substances around you or the relationships around you, you use that word. Do you feel then that you were [00:51:10] putting anyone at harm or just yourself at harm to, you know, get that hit, as it were? [00:51:15]

Speaker1: Um, no. Well it depends. [00:51:20] That was a very broad question.

Speaker2: What I mean is, because you said you gave the analogy, like, [00:51:25] for example, no one’s going to kill someone to watch the next episode of Netflix, but you. So you have [00:51:30] to use the word addiction carefully. So you use the word you said that you were an addict, [00:51:35] you know, so I’m saying, so what extent would it be like, how did you feel that the self destruction or the destruction to [00:51:40] others manifested, manifested itself?

Speaker1: So mine wasn’t a destruction to others? Yeah, [00:51:45] it was, I was I was a sole trader, as it were. Yeah. Uh, and while I [00:51:50] was a sole trader, because a, I didn’t know I had addiction problems, um, until I [00:51:55] went into rehab. Um, and. I used to just [00:52:00] travel. I’m not a horrible person. Um, I’m a very kind person at heart, [00:52:05] and I was very sensitive as a kid. But I think I’m going back to your first question as well. [00:52:10] Probably reaction to a lot of that was to, um, you got to remember [00:52:15] that alcohol is a painkiller. So most drugs, right, emotional painkillers and mental painkillers. [00:52:20] And if you’ve got something going on inside that you [00:52:25] haven’t dealt with, you’re going to have pain or you’re going to have a thought process that tries to divert [00:52:30] you from feeling that pain. Hence why most people don’t want to be in themselves. Right? So when you get [00:52:35] to have the ability to face that to the core, then I believe [00:52:40] that that you arrest that addiction because that energy goes so for me, [00:52:45] um.

Speaker3: Was there a moment when you’re saying you weren’t you didn’t realise [00:52:50] that you you were an addict, but then you ended up in rehab. So was was there a moment where you did realise [00:52:55] and what was what was that?

Speaker1: Yeah, I got tired of I for me, I was just enjoying life. Burning candle [00:53:00] at both ends. I was told that, yeah, if you’re going to work hard, you should play hard. And that’s what I did. [00:53:05] But towards the end I realised that actually there was partying [00:53:10] and then it started to be partying and consequences. Then there was partying and more [00:53:15] consequences. Then there was a lot of consequences. And then I realised that I [00:53:20] started to, um, not want to leave my house like I’m fearful of going to [00:53:25] the shops. And I stopped looking people in the eye. What happened to this person? I used to be a bright kid [00:53:30] who really liked to engage with people. I love to turn up at work, and there was a couple of times [00:53:35] I turned up to work and I just didn’t want to be there. I felt awful, I self-conscious that [00:53:40] they can see I’ve been out all night and and it just wasn’t right. It just didn’t feel right [00:53:45] from someone who wanted to be very successful in their career. This was now overtaking the [00:53:50] drive to be successful and happy because I couldn’t see it myself. It was more about [00:53:55] trying to. Nothing worked anymore. And [00:54:00] I had this great analogy that someone told me that in 1954, alcoholism [00:54:05] and addiction was graded as a disease and an illness in America. So [00:54:10] you’re born at this ease with yourself, or you get [00:54:15] to a point where you’re at dis ease with yourself. So you take something from the outside and put it in [00:54:20] or behaviour so you’re at ease with yourself.

Speaker1: But at one point when that stops working, [00:54:25] you’re at dis ease with yourself or you’re drinking or not. And your [00:54:30] disease disease yourself with your drinking. So you are now completely at disease [00:54:35] with yourself. There’s nowhere to go. And at that point you have to make a decision. Am I going to go in and sort [00:54:40] this out because this is where I live anyway, no matter if you’re in a big house, small house you live in [00:54:45] here, or am I going to just go to the very end and try and be a rock star? So [00:54:50] for me, it was tired of those feelings, tired of being, um, just [00:54:55] feeling really ill and unwell and not wanting to do the things I used [00:55:00] to do and behave the way I used to behave. And I had incredible shame and guilt [00:55:05] because, um, I just didn’t want to go out in the house. I didn’t want to engage. [00:55:10] Started thinking, oh, no one likes me, but I wasn’t phoning them, you know? So your behaviours changes. [00:55:15] And I started to make excuses. I can’t go out because of this or can’t [00:55:20] go out because of that. And at that point I was like, something’s happening. I need to I need to sort myself [00:55:25] out. I’ve clearly come to the end of a carriage in this train, and if I want to go to the next one, [00:55:30] I need to address myself.

Speaker3: So what what was the process? Was one one [00:55:35] session of rehab enough for you to change yourself? Yeah.

Speaker1: So rehabilitation [00:55:40] is great. It’s it’s an airbag.

Speaker2: So hold on. So you went to rehab. At [00:55:45] what point in your life? How old were you? What age?

Speaker1: Yeah, I went when I was 33.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker2: Um, [00:55:50] and from the States, was it in the States or what was it? No, I.

Speaker1: Actually went in London. I was living [00:55:55] in Los Angeles. I came back because my mum was not very well, and I came back [00:56:00] and also being in my home environment shone out that something [00:56:05] wasn’t well, because like I said, when you’re partying, you tend to be with parties. [00:56:10] But when I went back to my home environment, I stood out because that was different. [00:56:15] And I started to get all the feelings and all the thoughts and process. So I went into, [00:56:20] uh, a friend of mine took me into a rehab. Uh, I went in there. I had no idea [00:56:25] what I was going in there for, except I just was burnt out. Um, and [00:56:30] I really went in there for anxiety. I went in there for an anxiety disorder because I just was like [00:56:35] this all the time. And, um, whilst I was in there, I realised that actually [00:56:40] I have been using substances and alcohol to soothe myself. Words you [00:56:45] used. A bit deeper than that, but it was basically just to try and take [00:56:50] the edge off life just so I could cope. And I said to someone, it was funny. I was running out the gate [00:56:55] from this rehab to run down to a pub, and I clocked [00:57:00] what I said. And I said to myself, if you go in there and you can have some pints [00:57:05] or some whisky or whatever, then you can deal with what they’re telling you about yourself. And [00:57:10] at that moment I had an aha moment. I thought, oh my God, I. I [00:57:15] need something out to to help me cope with life. And I thought, I don’t want to be like that. I don’t [00:57:20] want to be reliant upon anything outside of myself. So I went back in. I [00:57:25] checked myself in for another 28 days, and then I did aftercare after that, [00:57:30] and that took me on a journey of doing yoga, not to be physically fit, [00:57:35] but to actually do yoga properly. Meditation, Tai chi.

Speaker3: Manage [00:57:40] your state in a different way, right?

Speaker1: Yeah, but learn about myself because what people don’t do, we’re in our bodies [00:57:45] and everything we do is on the outside. If I get that house, if I get that car, if I get this, [00:57:50] I’ll be okay when I have that relationship and.

Speaker2: Then you get it and you’re not okay.

Speaker1: No, which is a great blessing [00:57:55] because then you realise, oh, I’m not okay. So something you also.

Speaker3: Dated A-list celebrities, [00:58:00] and you must have seen that idea that, you know, a lot of very successful people are very sad. [00:58:05]

Speaker1: It depends on the person, doesn’t it? Yeah. I mean, it’s I [00:58:10] think when you say this sad. I think a lot of successful people can be lonely because [00:58:15] other people can’t identify with them. So you hear normal people, for example, [00:58:20] um, saying, oh, I spoke to this celebrity and they was [00:58:25] rude, or they have to have a car service, so they’re stuck up or they have security. What’s their problem? Can’t they [00:58:30] walk around? But no, a lot of people can’t walk around because they will get too famous completely, you [00:58:35] know, pulled upon and let me know this. Let me have a picture in your life. You become unfree. [00:58:40] So I understand that process. Um, so there’s probably a loneliness in there because I love [00:58:45] to walk around. I really love to be free. And I learnt myself early on. [00:58:50] I used to get car service in New York. I used to love walking up to the ropes, to the clubs and being [00:58:55] let in and having my own table. But in hindsight, I realised that [00:59:00] actually what I’m doing, I’m pulling myself away from people. I’m isolating [00:59:05] myself. I’m in the back of a car, which is great because you, for the first five minutes you feel important and [00:59:10] and a car service is good because if you need to get somewhere, it’s fine. But I was looking at it the wrong [00:59:15] way in the beginning when I realised that like, [00:59:20] I get I get the tube a lot in London and I do like, like most people do, but for a long time I wanted to drive [00:59:25] or get car services. I didn’t want to get on the tube. Now I love to get on the tube. I want to be in the amongst people. I want to be [00:59:30] in life, you know, because I.

Speaker2: Actually prefer the bus. Just saying. Love the [00:59:35] London bus. Top floor.

Speaker4: 22 I.

Speaker2: Love the bus.

Speaker3: But did you ever get famous [00:59:40] enough that, uh, people were recognising you in the streets and.

Speaker1: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. In the 90s, 100%. [00:59:45] Yeah, yeah, completely.

Speaker3: What’s that like, awful or amazing?

Speaker1: Well, initially, [00:59:50] um, as a young man, I thought all of a sudden I’ve arrived. This is so important. This [00:59:55] is wonderful. And it be. It was a great feeling. It was a new feeling. And it was a great feeling because [01:00:00] I’d never had that in my life before. And there was moments where he was in a bar in Majorca [01:00:05] and we couldn’t leave the bar because there was a load of screaming girls and stuff, and someone took us out the back. So [01:00:10] it’s so nice to have them experiences. Um, and they’re fun. Um, [01:00:15] but if that if that was became important for me, for my life, I’d have been incredibly [01:00:20] sad. And I think it’s dangerous for a person. So I realised I [01:00:25] love my freedom and I love my anonymity, and I love to just wear whatever I want a pair of old jeans [01:00:30] and t shirt, and I don’t have to worry about it.

Speaker3: Yeah, I mean, if you go for a Starbucks and [01:00:35] you can’t get your Starbucks because people recognise you, that’s an awful life, right? I mean, I [01:00:40] always thought what would be amazing would be to have a very famous name, but not a very famous face, [01:00:45] you know, like, I don’t know.

Speaker4: It’s interesting.

Speaker2: There’s actually there’s actually a very, um, big [01:00:50] podcaster online. She’s amazing, I love her. Her whole profile is [01:00:55] built on just without her face. And even when she, like, releases [01:01:00] her podcast, it’s like she does a cartoon. It’s a cartoon. Do you see what I mean? And then when people take photos of [01:01:05] her, when they have her, she blurs her face out. It’s quite clever. And they basically like she’s built her whole profile [01:01:10] on like what she has to say, not what she looks like, which I think is very smart.

Speaker4: Um, yeah. [01:01:15] That’s what.

Speaker3: She did, wasn’t.

Speaker4: It? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker2: So I think.

Speaker3: You know, there are jobs. There [01:01:20] are jobs. I was trying to think of it, you know, what are jobs that are where the the name is more famous.

Speaker4: Than the face.

Speaker2: For [01:01:25] example, I had, um, I.

Speaker4: I have a friend.

Speaker2: Of, um, I [01:01:30] got introduced to somebody that was a lawyer and his. He owns [01:01:35] the most famous law firm in the UK.

Speaker4: And with a chance.

Speaker2: No, [01:01:40] this is Mishcon de Reya.

Speaker3: Is he.

Speaker4: Mishcon?

Speaker2: Yeah, exactly. [01:01:45] So any time his name is seen, everyone’s like Mishcon. Like, I didn’t even really [01:01:50] know who he was. But people are like, you know him? I was like, yeah, I know him. Do you know what I mean? It’s like I didn’t think anything of.

Speaker4: It, [01:01:55] like.

Speaker3: A DJ or someone, you know, like, yeah, like, I don’t know, people probably know what David [01:02:00] Guetta looks like, right? But the name is more famous than The Face. Or I know a formula one driver. [01:02:05] Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker2: But having, you know, Paul also [01:02:10] like, you’ve had the, um, privilege of, you know, working. King in an era [01:02:15] where there wasn’t. We weren’t so reliant on digital and mobile phones and etc.. Do you [01:02:20] think it has become worse for people working, as I say, in the luxe [01:02:25] business, because of online, you know, because of what they’re subject [01:02:30] to? And also, do you think the traditional modelling industry is suffering as a result [01:02:35] of online? And also, I.

Speaker5: Think.

Speaker1: It’s a big question. [01:02:40] I think, um, it depends on the person, because when you say subject [01:02:45] two, you’re basically saying the person’s a victim, right? But you have [01:02:50] a choice. People do have we still have choices of what we want to do. I think that, [01:02:55] um, the internet and apps like Instagram [01:03:00] or whatever have given people a platform that would never get one. Yeah, there’s [01:03:05] a positive, even for me.

Speaker2: That’s what happened with me.

Speaker1: There’s a positive to that. Yeah, 100%. And [01:03:10] if you use that as a tool to do what you’re doing an incredible job [01:03:15] and have a great space, that’s wonderful. If you’re doing it just to show something [01:03:20] like bags or whatever, and you’re famous for doing silly things, I don’t think that’s a great way to be. [01:03:25] Um. I am lucky that I was in that area because, um, [01:03:30] you had to know yourself better and your trade better at what you did. [01:03:35] And it seems to me now that the person that shouts the loudest gets [01:03:40] heard. And that’s not the person who’s the most skilful person, or so there can [01:03:45] be a bit of a difficult biased in that way. Um, and I think there’s a lot [01:03:50] of someone said it was quite funny. There’s a lot of Instagram models that that don’t have. Agents could never get [01:03:55] an agent and some of them done really well, which is great because it’s given the platform. But some of them say [01:04:00] I’m a model and I do really well, but they don’t, and they’re desperate to do [01:04:05] that. And I think that’s damaging to them. And I think the people that probably follow them have a, have a, have [01:04:10] a disillusion of what it’s really about.

Speaker2: I think you get that in dentistry as well. Like Payman will back [01:04:15] me on this one. I went to go see, um, a Picture of Dorian Grey last week, and [01:04:20] I have to say I hugely recommend it. It was one of the best plays I’ve ever seen, so theatre is my passion. Sarah [01:04:25] Snook, uh, was a one man band, so she’s the woman in succession. I don’t know if you’ve seen succession. Yeah. So she [01:04:30] plays 26 roles. And if you know the story of, um, Picture of Dorian Grey by Oscar Wilde, [01:04:35] um, about a young boy that’s always celebrated for the way he looks. Eventually someone [01:04:40] gets commissioned to do his portrait. He’s so mesmerised by it. But then it also hits him [01:04:45] that, you know, he’ll not always look like this. So he makes a deal with the portrait and basically says, I’ll [01:04:50] trade my soul to ensure that eternal youth. Then he goes on to live like an incredibly hedonistic lifestyle. [01:04:55] Now when you watch the play, they integrate like modern day. And it was really interesting [01:05:00] because Dorian Grey was like kind of looking in the mirror, but they put Instagram filters and it was [01:05:05] a constant with the Instagram filters, and I was like, it’s so interesting because obviously this [01:05:10] is somebody that represents the epitome of narcissism, like Dorian Grey, and the [01:05:15] more hedonistic and awful he becomes, the more he gets away with it because of the way that he looks. [01:05:20] And I was thinking algorithm. Yeah. And for me, I think like we have so much of that [01:05:25] now, like people celebrate a lot of people online. And I think you’re right. But I know [01:05:30] that, for example, in dentistry, people are chasing the numbers in the fame rather than patient [01:05:35] safety skills and all of like the traditional values. And I think.

Speaker3: It must have been [01:05:40] accused of that.

Speaker4: Oh, all the.

Speaker2: Time, all the time. And that’s why I made a huge promise to myself, like, [01:05:45] first and foremost are my patients. And Payman knows, like I’ve built a clinic with some of the best clinicians [01:05:50] in the country, you know, and it’s difficult working with like some of the best clinicians because they are all incredible [01:05:55] at what they do. And I could have been taken the classic model where I built a clinic just based off [01:06:00] my name, but I was like, no, I want my patients to get the absolute best. And I have been accused of that [01:06:05] because I think people assume when you because.

Speaker3: You’re so successful. Right? Well, did you ever [01:06:10] think about cosmetic surgery, Botox, cosmetic dentistry?

Speaker1: I’ve had loads done. Payman. [01:06:15]

Speaker4: Oh no you haven’t.

Speaker1: I probably need some. Um, yeah. One [01:06:20] once there was a time where, um, I was having a very bad [01:06:25] time before I went into rehab, when my self-esteem [01:06:30] just hit rock bottom, and I did go to see a surgeon, and I said, can you just make me look like [01:06:35] this? Which I have? I have my favourite photograph. Yeah, I.

Speaker3: Have my for yourself. Yeah. [01:06:40]

Speaker1: From a shot Versace campaign, um, in [01:06:45] Los Angeles with Bruce Weber. And it was just the best picture I’ve ever seen of [01:06:50] myself. And that image had locked into my mind. And I used to look in the mirror [01:06:55] with absolute hate. Like, what happened to you? What? What have you done? So I [01:07:00] went to see a surgeon to see. He basically laughed at me, and I’m very thankful for him because had [01:07:05] he not had morals and stuff, he could clearly see I was not. Well, um, he [01:07:10] could have said, yeah, let’s do this. And charged heroin, which he charged and stuff. And he said, no, you don’t need anything. [01:07:15] And I was literally pleading with at the time, I said, no, I’m not going to do surgery on you said said, come back in a year and we’ll talk [01:07:20] about it. I never went back. I didn’t need to. Um, so that was because my self perception [01:07:25] was so low.

Speaker3: Um, I had like a body dysmorphia type of, um. [01:07:30]

Speaker1: You can call it that. I don’t know whether it was body dysmorphia. It was just a negative [01:07:35] loop of thought processes where I was comparing myself to something at some point. [01:07:40] Correct.

Speaker2: And I do that all the time.

Speaker4: By the way.

Speaker1: So compare and despair, isn’t it? If as soon as you look at something, this is the thing, [01:07:45] you see someone in a beautiful car, or see someone you want to look like, you [01:07:50] just it’s snapshot image, and then we compare how we feel [01:07:55] to what we’re seeing and is never going to be the same. It’s always going to be discord because you don’t [01:08:00] know what that person’s going through, how they got what they got. And again, once you get there, [01:08:05] you’ll realise, oh, this is not that great. No.

Speaker3: But although this came up in, um, [01:08:10] dentistry. Right. The question, you know, there’s a lot you can do in dentistry that damages teeth. Right. [01:08:15] And so there are things like, uh, where you draw the tooth porcelain veneers, [01:08:20] you draw the tooth, and then you fit a veneer porcelain bit facing on the front of it. And of course, [01:08:25] now you can do the minimally and so forth, but. The question came up, would you do porcelain veneers on an 18 year old? [01:08:30] No. Global Dental Collective with me and the [01:08:35] people were giving different answers and everyone was saying no, no, no. And then someone, Sahil said, [01:08:40] what if she’s a model and that’s her livelihood? Um, [01:08:45] it’s a different situation. You know, I.

Speaker2: I understand, I understand, [01:08:50] hear what you say. And like, obviously I’ve had, you know, elective things done to preserve my youth, [01:08:55] etc. and I’ve had my teeth done. I’ve had my teeth done as well as, you know. But, you know, I had [01:09:00] something called composite bonding. And the reason why I had that done is because I had really like thin, eroded enamel. That [01:09:05] was the reason. And I do have people, in my view, when people come to me and I genuinely don’t see anything [01:09:10] wrong with them, I’ll have that conversation where I say, look, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you. Um, particularly [01:09:15] if they bring up like an Instagram or TikTok trend and they’re like, look at this. This person had like, are my teeth [01:09:20] wide enough? You know, because I start talking about Margot Robbie’s smile. And then I suddenly had an influx of patients being like, make me wider, [01:09:25] like make me smile really wide. And I had someone, she had beautiful teeth. And I said, listen, you don’t need anything now. [01:09:30]

Speaker3: But it’s not. It’s not a.

Speaker4: Need. No, but.

Speaker2: Listen. Yeah, yeah, I get that. But what I’m trying to say is as [01:09:35] well is that there are some people that do have low self confidence because of their [01:09:40] teeth. And I would disagree with you and say like for example, composite bonding. Everyone’s like minimally invasive. I’ve seen plenty [01:09:45] of non minimally invasive composite bonding. And on top of that removal of composite bonding is [01:09:50] not minimally invasive. I just had mine all redone. It is not minimally invasive to like remove it you know. So I [01:09:55] think that like anything that you do it’s a choice. And you as Paul said, you have to be doing [01:10:00] it for the right reasons. Like if you are trying to make yourself like you were in a moment in time. And [01:10:05] I’ve had people like that, you know, people who are 60 and like, look at my teeth when I was 25. Can [01:10:10] I.

Speaker4: Have that.

Speaker3: Surgeon right? This surgeon could have said.

Speaker4: But you can’t, though realistically [01:10:15] could.

Speaker3: Have said could have said he understands the risks, he understands the benefits. [01:10:20] He’s an adult. He’s come to me and said, I want this done. That’s consent I’ve got, [01:10:25] I’ve got we’ve got to think. Informed consent, valid consent. These are legal terms for you agreeing to [01:10:30] have something done. He could have said all that. He could have felt all that. Obviously his bank balance would have gone up. I don’t know what [01:10:35] procedure you were after, but he didn’t. He he he he saw something his spidey sense [01:10:40] or something, told him not to do it and advised him to come back in a year. What I’m saying [01:10:45] is, you know, we’ve got a thing in dentistry called the daughter test. Would you do it to your daughter? And [01:10:50] there is there is an element of it’s not your choice. It’s your daughter’s choice. [01:10:55] Yeah. If she really understands the risks and benefits and wants to go ahead, then [01:11:00] it’s her choice. But. But this guy saw something, and you’re [01:11:05] really grateful for him for not doing it right? Oh, completely. Yeah. So it’s a it’s a really you know, it’s [01:11:10] an interesting point. It’s a I.

Speaker2: Think that’s I think that’s something to be said though for like emotional intelligence. So you [01:11:15] probably know from fed as well. Um, I always bang on about this that there is a real lack [01:11:20] of nuance thinking and a multifaceted approach [01:11:25] to medical care within, especially within the UK. So typically when you go [01:11:30] to a doctor, a dentist and someone says, I don’t like this or I want, I [01:11:35] need to have this done, or I broke this tooth, they literally like see a diagnosis [01:11:40] and then they treat the symptom. Whereas multifaceted approaches [01:11:45] where we look at other things in life, like you said, it was your psychological condition, your [01:11:50] stress and your self-worth that were affecting you, needing to change the way that you look. A doctor [01:11:55] that doesn’t have emotional intelligence will be like he’s trying to reverse ageing. Does that make sense? And to reverse ageing? [01:12:00] We do this and it’s a completely different way of thinking. And I think that this doctor clearly [01:12:05] had the emotional intelligence, which I believe that I have as well, because and people will say [01:12:10] it’s a red flag patient, I would actually disagree and say it may be more difficult to manage, but that’s not [01:12:15] the reason you shouldn’t be treating it. You get to the core. And that’s why sometimes I ask people, why [01:12:20] are you doing it? Does that make sense? You know, like what is the reason that you’re doing it? So I think that that’s [01:12:25] a really important approach within like the medical arena.

Speaker2: One thing I want to ask you, Paul as well, [01:12:30] like I can hear and feel that you’ve done so much work on yourself and that’s [01:12:35] so empowering. I think for a lot of people, especially young men, Payman and [01:12:40] I ruminate often about young men because we worry about the role models that are out [01:12:45] there at the moment. And I think typically you would agree that a lot of the younger generation, you know, what’s [01:12:50] the one behind Gen Z, who’s behind Gen Z, Gen X? Why is that it? There are even [01:12:55] worse because they look online and they see these archetypal figures that display masculinity, [01:13:00] for example. And they see it as, you know, being macho in [01:13:05] ways that are like Johnny Bravo or something like that, almost like a caricature type, you know, person. [01:13:10] But I feel worried because I think mental health with regards to men is [01:13:15] not spoken about enough. There is still a huge stigma, and I don’t think we’re making much progress because, as I said, [01:13:20] where are the role models, where are the men like leading the way? And I think not enough is [01:13:25] given. Not enough space is given to. To these men. What’s your views on that?

Speaker5: Who [01:13:30] is the deep subject?

Speaker1: It’s, um. I’m. I do mindset [01:13:35] coaching, so I’m mindset coach. A lot of guys and I mentor a lot of guys. And I always have done in [01:13:40] the industry as well in fashion because when I was a younger man, I craved [01:13:45] to have a mentor and I never had one. So I learnt a lot of things by doing [01:13:50] mistakes, which now I’m grateful for because it’s shaped me. But I [01:13:55] really desire to have that. I love learning, I’m someone who just loves learning. I love people because you can learn [01:14:00] so much from different people’s experiences. Um. An [01:14:05] and like the guys. It’s funny because you [01:14:10] can it’s such a deep thing. Some of the guys I work with, I’ve worked with some of the toughest men in the country, [01:14:15] actually. You’ve had books written about them and we’ve sat there holding hands, crying, [01:14:20] connecting on a level that is, it takes you. I used to think crime [01:14:25] was weak. I was always told crime. Crime was weak. I remember one day I crashed my motorbike. Um, [01:14:30] it’s probably about 13, and I took all the skin off the whole side of my body, and. And my dad was called. [01:14:35] He came over. And I was clearly in shock because I’d been sick and stuff. And he’s like, pull [01:14:40] yourself together, get up, get that bike home and shower you off.

Speaker1: And I remember picking the stuff [01:14:45] off in the shower thinking, you know, it’s not not really a bit of compassion. [01:14:50] We won’t go, go mess. Um, but that’s how he was brought up. And that’s stood [01:14:55] me in good, because I’ve learned from that how to be compassionate, [01:15:00] especially with my girls. Um, but going back to the space, [01:15:05] it really comes down from your upbringing you need to have. It’s so difficult because everyone’s [01:15:10] different. But if you can find someone stable around you. So my idols when I was growing up [01:15:15] was my grandfather, my mum’s father, who who, um, was [01:15:20] the only person left in his bomb disposal unit. And, um, [01:15:25] he, he was a really brave man. Never spoke about the war and losing. [01:15:30] He lost loads of his brothers and they got bombed out in the war and stuff like [01:15:35] that. But he was always a smart, kind, strong man. There’s a difference between [01:15:40] being a masculine man or being a misogynist or someone who’s [01:15:45] trying to show aggression or whatever, because that’s not true. A masculine man, I believe, [01:15:50] is someone who is mentally, emotionally stable, has a protective [01:15:55] side to them. Um, like a lion. If it needs to go [01:16:00] and do something, it can, but generally is pretty calm.

Speaker1: Um, and [01:16:05] there are people that are making space online because, I mean, it’s [01:16:10] a deep subject. But if you look at people like around the country, the government, they’re not exactly being showing you exactly [01:16:15] how to be. So you’re looking at leaders of the country acting a certain way, [01:16:20] and that’s not helpful. Then you’ve got some people on Instagram that are trying to prove something [01:16:25] to themselves or sell something or market it. That’s not true either. It is difficult. [01:16:30] I always say to guys, a stable place, usually [01:16:35] for young men, is some something to do with sports, right? Even if you’re not a sportsman, join [01:16:40] a club of some sort. Because usually if you’re in a martial art, there’s a discipline. If [01:16:45] you’re in boxing, there’s a discipline. If you’re in swimming, there’s a discipline, tennis, [01:16:50] there’s a discipline. And you’ll find stability within doing something or finding [01:16:55] something. I always think that because otherwise you’re going to be on a street corner, or you might just be hanging [01:17:00] out in your castle, wherever it is, I don’t know, but if you can find some stability [01:17:05] around you, outside of your circle, if that’s not stable, then that’s [01:17:10] a good place to start.

Speaker4: You know? Yeah. Amazing. I love the.

Speaker3: Charity that you’re. [01:17:15]

Speaker4: Involved with.

Speaker3: To do with this.

Speaker1: Yeah. So our charity, uh, what’s it called? [01:17:20] It’s called Stride Foundation UK. Amazing grassroots. Federico and I [01:17:25] sat down. And your wife. Yes. And, uh, she was talking about, [01:17:30] um, perspective of what do people do if they have drink problems or [01:17:35] drug problems, where do they go? And we had this whole discussion at the time. If you [01:17:40] couldn’t afford to go into treatment or you didn’t want to go into 12 step program, what do you do? [01:17:45] So you could go and get a detox or something like that, um, [01:17:50] in the NHS, and then you go home and you’re left with yourself. The whole point is about yourself. Mm. So [01:17:55] we decided to set something up where we could help [01:18:00] people get therapy, put into treatment or get coaching. So we did [01:18:05] that and it’s kind of it. We set it up. We did a charity day at Jonathan Palmer [01:18:10] Racetrack, which was amazing. We did it with the Amy Winehouse Foundation, which was great. Um, [01:18:15] and then we had kids and then life got involved. So it became myself [01:18:20] just networking. And I was at a film premiere once, for example. [01:18:25] And, um, so a very important agent came over to me and whispered, [01:18:30] I’ve Sancho’s got a problem. Can you talk to them? It was famous actor, so [01:18:35] I talked to them and helped them out. So it became a real networking thing for me, kind of behind the scenes. [01:18:40]

Speaker1: And the only reason I came out and talked about addiction in the first place, because I, um, a newspaper [01:18:45] group that we finished in court a few years back had published, um, [01:18:50] articles about my addiction problems. Um, so otherwise no one would never know. But [01:18:55] actually now it’s great because I’ve got a platform to help others from. So [01:19:00] we now are doing a pilot program where we’ve got ex, [01:19:05] um, addicts recovering and I’m 20. I haven’t drunk for 20 years, I’m 20 years sober. So I’ve [01:19:10] lived sobriety as long as I was when I was partying, because a lot of people come in three [01:19:15] months, two months, start telling everyone how to do it and what to do. I think you have to live it for [01:19:20] a while. Um, so I’ve lived all of that for a while, and I went back into modelling and lived that one [01:19:25] sober, which is amazing. Um, so what I do is [01:19:30] we’ve got, sorry, we’ve got a school program where we go and do 45 minute talks. [01:19:35] Q and A after, if anybody has generally have has an issue or they have an [01:19:40] issue with a parent, we can give them a therapist to [01:19:45] which we will fund for them to have therapy and or something, or coaching or [01:19:50] mentoring or whatever. So that’s what we’re putting in place. It’s very small. We’re doing it small wasn’t to change the world. [01:19:55]

Speaker1: What I found that people that helped me really focussed [01:20:00] on me and moved me through the places and helped me, I needed to go and answer all the questions I needed. So we focussed. [01:20:05] We put a guy in 19 months ago that was in a very, [01:20:10] very bad way, um, a 52 year old man. Um, I actually knew him years ago. [01:20:15] And when we put him into treatment, he’d had a stroke, a brain stem stroke, which [01:20:20] is really bad. Survived it. Um, when he came out, we [01:20:25] smothered him with people that I know that have worked in sobriety and [01:20:30] stuff, and. He’s emotional. He’s not. He’s now 19 [01:20:35] months clean, sober. He’s got his life back. He’s really good. He helps other people. So [01:20:40] it’s like dropping a penny or a stone into a pool. The ripple effect is positive, least [01:20:45] to 15, 20 people around you. So we wanted to focus on people rather [01:20:50] than lots of people. So we’re doing the the school program now, um, [01:20:55] which is great. And um, after after we’re going to run it for six [01:21:00] months and see what the real feedback is and what the impact is, because when I was at school, [01:21:05] you’d get a policeman come in with a suitcase saying, if you take that, you’ll die. If you take that, I’ll [01:21:10] die. And that was it.

Speaker3: I visited my school to.

Speaker1: The problem with that is if you if you [01:21:15] have a joint or something, sneakily, you go, well, I didn’t die from that. It’s okay, I can.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: So sort of honest [01:21:20] conversation isn’t it, that says, look, there’s this the fun element. There’s the amount of risk [01:21:25] we do in our youth. None of that was was talked about, was it?

Speaker1: No. It was black and white. It was [01:21:30] fear. It was fear stuff.

Speaker3: I mean, let’s face it, there was a it’s fun getting off [01:21:35] your face, right? It’s you have to admit that, I mean, not that you would know.

Speaker2: Never, [01:21:40] never done it. So I wouldn’t even know, you know.

Speaker3: Well, what he’s talking [01:21:45] about is what I’m saying. Yeah. I mean, the.

Speaker1: Fun thing, really, when you think about it, what is the actual fun thing if you [01:21:50] want to be boring? In particular about it is, is that you don’t have to be yourself. Yeah. And if [01:21:55] you think about the old, uh, sentence, which people used to say was I was out [01:22:00] of my mind last night, I was out of my head. It’s because you don’t like being in it. Yeah.

Speaker4: If you find [01:22:05] a.

Speaker1: Place like what you said. I like dancing. Like you like being there. It’s a great place [01:22:10] to be. So that’s the bit that needs to be addressed.

Speaker4: Addressed?

Speaker2: Yeah, 100%. [01:22:15] Paul, this has been such an amazing, insightful conversation. I feel like I talked to you for hours and [01:22:20] it’s I feel really privileged that you’ve come on here. And, you know, I definitely encourage anyone that does [01:22:25] want to speak to Paul. You know, he has had one of the most inspiring career paths [01:22:30] and, you know, has become one of, you know, the most amazing coaches and amazing human [01:22:35] beings. So thank you so, so much for joining us today. We’ve really enjoyed it.

Speaker3: One final [01:22:40] question. If you don’t mind, go on. Payman. If your daughters said they want to be models, [01:22:45] would you give them your blessing? Um.

Speaker1: After [01:22:50] university, after they got their studies, and if they are stable young ladies, [01:22:55] then yes, I would not before they’ve matured enough to know themselves now.

Speaker3: But [01:23:00] the classic thing is they get classic thing.

Speaker4: They get classic.

Speaker2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker3: So no, no to that. You’re [01:23:05] saying.

Speaker1: Um, it depends. It completely depends on circumstances and what job? One of my oldest [01:23:10] ones did do a little modelling job because it was with Federica, my [01:23:15] wife, and, um, I knew all the group and it was great. And it was a healthy, fun [01:23:20] shoot. So yeah, that’s that’s different.

Speaker2: Thank you so much, Paul.

Speaker4: Thank you so.

Speaker3: Much. Thank you.

Speaker4: Very much. [01:23:25]