Speaker1: I remember saying to my assistant at the time, I said, I’m not going to be able to pay for this month because I’m not going to work this month. I just need to not do anything like I’m about to break. And funnily enough, two weeks later, lockdown was announced. So if it had to happen at any time, it was then for me.

Speaker2: This is mind movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:00:30] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi. Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers, the mental health podcast for dentists. Today I have one of my very good friends, my esteemed colleague, the beautiful Dr. Tara Francis. Tara and I had connected a few years ago. We actually had mutual patients. We had a lot of mutual patients. So Tara and I were [00:01:00] first early adopters, first mover advantage of treating influencers and doing all that stuff. We both built a profile online and in our clinics and our following, so we have that very much in common. Loved her energy. Loved her vibe. We got on really well. We ended up becoming really good friends with the influencers we were treating and we have like a little group together. So it’s really great. And Tara has been a very aspirational and inspiring figure within the dental arena. [00:01:30] But she also was one of the dentists that was very brave enough to leave dentistry and move solely into facial aesthetics. And she was very early on in that. I know a lot of people do that now, but I definitely think that you inspired a lot of people to do that. So welcome, Tara.

Speaker1: Thank you. What an intro. Thank you so much.

Speaker2: It’s so fantastic to have you here, Tara. So as I as you know, there’s a massive onus on mental health within our platform. We really want to help people. But I want you to kind of describe a little bit your journey into [00:02:00] how you left dentistry and why you left dentistry.

Speaker1: Sure. So I’ll start, I guess, into why I went into dentistry, firstly. And, um, do you know what? I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. I just knew that I liked people, I liked art, and I loved science, and it kind of the combination of the three worked. I was very lucky to have work experience with a family friend of ours who is a dentist. Um, and kind of [00:02:30] like, oh, I like this. He dealt with patients really nicely. You could see the personal approach. You could see it was more than just fixing a tooth or whatever it may be. Um, and again, coming from a middle eastern background, that kind of expectation that me and you, um, have experienced meant that, okay, dentistry fits the bill on all parts, so let me just do it. I actually failed my first year of dentistry, really, and I had never failed anything in my whole entire life. So [00:03:00] that was a huge struggle to deal with. My dad didn’t talk to me. It was yeah, it was tough and I was fortunate enough to be allowed to re-enter. So I repeated my first year completed dentistry, really disliked the whole dental university experience, and I speak quite strongly about that because that was my personal experience. I yeah, and when I speak study Kings King’s is a great uni. It’s not about King’s. It was just my experience. [00:03:30]

Speaker2: I really resonate. Right. Because and I speak about this a lot and people get really shocked. I never felt like I fitted into dentistry. In fact, I still don’t feel like I fit into dentistry, although people feel that I have this massive like platform. And wait, I applied for dentist. I wanted to be a dentist since I was 12. Then I applied to dentistry and then I got the the interviews because I got the grades and then they didn’t give me the job. But why didn’t they give me a job? Well, they just didn’t think that I’d be a good dentist, but they didn’t give me a reason why. I’m pretty sure it was judgement because I was a bit more creative and [00:04:00] worked. You know, the is it the right sort of part of your brain that’s more creative? I’m pretty sure the left, the left side of the brain. And then I pretended to be someone I wasn’t. Then I got a job, then I got a position in dentistry. And then when I got that position in dentistry in dental school, I had no friends. I literally had no friends. All my friends were in the arts, and I was just so drawn to people that had a critical way of thinking, were a bit creative and like, believed in magic, as I said, you know? And then what happened was, again, I got all the grades. [00:04:30] But then when it came to applying for a job, I had to go through clearing. So I totally resonate with what you were saying. And when people say university is the best time of your life, I’m like, I don’t really think it is. And I actually think also as a female, you don’t really know who you are during your university years.

Speaker1: I still don’t know who I am.

Speaker2: I know I’m still working it out.

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s so interesting that you say uni is the best time of your year, your years or your life. My mum said that to me and while I while it was leading up to university, [00:05:00] because coming from a middle eastern background, my parents were a little bit more strict. I wasn’t allowed to do certain things that my other, more English friends were allowed to do, and she was like, don’t worry, when you get to uni, you know it’s going to be all great. And then it wasn’t. It just wasn’t. So yeah, the jump from secondary school where I felt quite at home with the friends that I had created, I was that person that was friends with the dinner ladies and like friendship, lots of different friendship groups, um, to then go to university. That was mixed [00:05:30] because I went to an all girls school. It was just a big jump. I was in a very controlling relationship that I didn’t realise that. The time I didn’t move out, so there were loads of things that contributed to me failing my first year. But I, you know, repeated it.

Speaker2: And how did you handle that? How did you handle that failure? Because there are so many people that think that it defines you. And I think the narrative within dental school is that you feel like you’re a failure in life when you fail your exams. So how did you handle it?

Speaker1: Um, I [00:06:00] just really struggled. My mum communicated with me effectively. Um, my dad, however, did not. And that was the biggest struggle because I felt like I had let him down. But then I also felt like, why are you angry at me? Like I’ve done so much, like I’ve done so well so far. You know, I’ve been this daughter that you’ve wanted me to be. Um, and I know after having therapy and stuff, like, it was just his way of dealing with things. And I absolutely love him so much. And he’s done so amazingly for me and the family. Um, [00:06:30] but yeah, that was the toughest bit. So I just had to get through day by day. I was thinking of, okay, if they don’t allow me in to repeat my first year, what can I do? What degree can I kind of apply to next? And it was going to be maths, which is completely off topic. I was like, it’s just easier. You can just be right or wrong and that’s it, you know? Um, so yeah, I just tried to get through.

Speaker2: I think the Middle East and struggle is strong. Right. And I’m going to say as well, you’re a hybrid of me and Payman, right. Because Payman is an Iranian [00:07:00] and I’m Lebanese, so you’re the hybrid. But I think the Middle Eastern thing is super strong. And it’s, it’s it’s interesting because as somebody that’s done a lot of work in therapy and really understanding, we actually had a guest that talked about it. I really think there’s something like cultural and generational trauma as well that’s passed on. And most of us come from a family of immigrants in some way. They came, you know, to the Western world to give us opportunities. And there’s definitely this heaviness that all of us carry with needing to perform and [00:07:30] do well. And there feels like a conditional love, which it’s absolutely not. Because, like you, we have parents that give us unconditional love. But there was also very much like do well in your grades. And I remember I was sick at school when I was young and my dad goes, I had chickenpox, actually. My dad goes, one day of school costs this much you have to go to. He sent me to school with chickenpox and they sent me straight back there like he’s going to she’s going to infect the whole class, you know, like, you know, and it’s good for their [00:08:00] immune system, you know. But the point is, there was such an onus. And that’s a blessing and a curse because I definitely think, you know, we work really hard and we really push the boundaries. So, you know, on the one hand it makes us very ambitious. It makes us like really want to care for people around us. But then the curse is we burn ourselves out, we feel guilty, and we feel that love is conditional in, you know, in some senses as well. And it’s something one.

Speaker3: Thing we shouldn’t we shouldn’t sort of typecast as Middle Eastern or Asian or I mean, there are British [00:08:30] dentists, right, who passed exams and get straight A’s to get into dental school and, and all of that. And so that family where that kid is growing up, you know, somehow we get this feeling that, oh, in that family, it’s a different situation, totally in our families. And it’s not necessarily true.

Speaker2: Um, we fight a lot, by the way. So you’re going to see this. I love this, but no, but what I’m trying to say is yes and yes, yes and no. Yes and no. Because as you know, like when we spoke to our previous [00:09:00] guest that was talking about being from like an Indian family and how much weight that carried for him in different senses. And therapists and psychologists will tell you now, like different people carry different traumas from different cultures. It’s just a fact. Payman, you know, so if you are from a white, privileged background, there is nothing wrong with that. That doesn’t mean that you’re not hard working. They don’t carry, they may carry other traumas, but they don’t carry the same sorts of traumas that’s been passed on from generation to generation with us.

Speaker3: You’re right. There’s something about an [00:09:30] immigrant mentality. Yeah, there is something about that. Um.

Speaker1: I think where it stands is that, generally speaking, as an immigrant, you come with less, you are completely in a new environment. You have to learn your way. And most immigrants come here for a better life, for either themselves or for their offspring. So I think the pressures are passed on to the children, whereas someone who was born here, perhaps whether they’re Middle Eastern or English [00:10:00] or Asian or wherever, um, maybe they’re a bit more settled and those pressures are eased off slightly. Um, that’s that’s what I found anyway, normally.

Speaker3: That failing that first year colour the rest of your journey in university as well.

Speaker1: Um, kind of I think it’s actually made more of a profound effect now, because I speak to a lot of Dental students, and I can pass on the fact that actually, you don’t have [00:10:30] to have you don’t have to pretend to have the best time at uni. And it’s okay to struggle during university because the. Pressures all there, especially with certain universities. So I feel like it’s had more of a profound effect now because students can resonate, and not many people talk about the fact that they didn’t enjoy Dental University in the environments I’ve been in anyway.

Speaker3: I mean, I struggled a little bit, but can I just say they were the best years of my life? I love that.

Speaker1: View.

Speaker2: I love [00:11:00] that for you, babes. But listen like it’s not. Yeah, like literally good for you. Good for you. But also I think, you know, like the one thing that I really struggle with as a female, I talk about this a lot. I think that I really struggle because society has placed this emphasis that women are the best in their 20s. They’re the most fertile. They’re the most desirable. They’re the most beautiful. We talk about this a lot, right? Yet I feel like my brain was so undeveloped, and I actually feel like I’m more attractive [00:11:30] now because of the things like knowing who I am and my confidence. And that radiates a different type of attractiveness. And I think that that had an impact because I didn’t know who I was. And also at university, I was thrown into this environment where I was with like boarding school people. I’d never been with boarding school people. They were all white. They were all like, oh my gosh, you are so exotic. P.s I made Prince Harry’s books. I used to live with his ex girlfriend, I made it, I’m in spare.

Speaker2: Did I ever tell you that I [00:12:00] am in spare? He said he said he trusted me well, he trusted us. The girls that we lived with. I’ve got it somewhere here. I’ll read it to you. Anyway, the point is, is that I lived with those sorts of people, which was like a great thing. But also I had a massive identity crisis. I was really embarrassed to being Middle Eastern. I was like, no, no, I’m British, I’m British. I became way posher. I used to talk a bit north London before I left, like when I was at school. And now I’m like, you know, like sort of Queens, elocution, English. But there was definitely like that sense of really not knowing who I am. [00:12:30] And I think that those are. That’s why I think I find those years so difficult. Maybe it is different for men. I don’t know, because I’m only speaking on my own experiences that shape me. But I definitely didn’t feel like I knew who I was at uni, which contributed to my experience.

Speaker1: Yeah. Completely resonate. Also, I came from even at school, primary school. I came from a school that was predominantly white, Caucasian, and even with exception to a few other students that I knew of, everyone’s [00:13:00] families were living in Knightsbridge, Sloane Street, and then we’re in Acton in like a humble two bedroom house, you know. So even the struggle with my parents working so hard to put me through private school, um, but then I didn’t fit in with them. But then I didn’t fit in with friends that I had made outside of of my private school. So I was kind of like this in-between. And it’s not me feeling sorry for myself or anything like that. And actually, I’m really grateful that I got to experience two different worlds, [00:13:30] almost because I feel like it shaped me to who I am. I feel like I can actually engage with so many different people and truly connect. Um, but yes, being a female does have its certain implications. I guess being a male does to.

Speaker2: 100%, and we talk about that all the time. But let’s talk a little bit about how you transitioned into facial aesthetics, because I think what a lot of people realise, including Payman, is that they do dentistry and they’re like, I don’t actually like the dentistry.

Speaker3: So I didn’t mind the dentistry. [00:14:00]

Speaker2: Why did you quit then after like five minutes?

Speaker3: Five years. Yeah, but but the the work took over.

Speaker2: But. Okay, so tell me though, Tara, what made you transition?

Speaker1: Um, so I graduated and immediately after graduating, literally two months later, did a facial aesthetics course. I had to borrow money from my mum.

Speaker2: What was the thing that inspired you to do it, though?

Speaker1: I there was a tutor at uni and he would choose her head and neck anatomy outside of university. [00:14:30] So in his home country he was head of anatomy, but then in the UK was doing clinical teaching and a friend of mine and I had tutoring with him for anatomy because I was absolutely terrible at the time in learning it. And he used to do dermal fillers and toxin on the in his own clinic, and we watched him do it. And the way he applied the anatomy to how he was injecting and what he did, and I was like, oh my gosh. And I always loved things like beauty. And it just worked, you know?

Speaker2: Um, [00:15:00] did you dislike dentistry or is it just that you had more of a love for this?

Speaker1: I felt a bit neutral about dentistry. Didn’t love it, didn’t hate it. Just felt quite neutral. When I got into practice, I loved again the people side. Like I loved seeing the families coming in throughout the years. And like, you know, I’d, I’d genuinely, like, make friends with the families. Patients would come in just to see me. It was so nice. But I guess the practical side of it wasn’t it wasn’t, I don’t know, inspired [00:15:30] to to do.

Speaker3: More dentistry as.

Speaker1: Well. I dabbled, I dabbled and. Had I not gone into aesthetics, I’m quite sure cosmetic dentistry would have kind of helped me feel.

Speaker3: How many years were you a dentist before you stopped?

Speaker1: Um, about four years or so, I started to cut down and gradually cut down further and further. And in 2018, I decided to stop dentistry as a whole for a year to see how aesthetics would actually build, because I found myself getting quite drained. [00:16:00] I was kind of doing a clinical day, travelling an hour and a half back home and seeing patients until like 11 p.m. for aesthetics. So I was like, okay, this needs to stop. Let me full focus on aesthetics. I’m a strong believer in the more you give, the more you get out. And that was kind of my trial run and it just took off.

Speaker2: So tell me as well, because when I first saw Tara, she was practising out of a gym. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: So had a room within a gym. So how did.

Speaker2: You. Because I think one of the things that people find most [00:16:30] difficult in life is taking that leap of faith and going out of their own comfort zone, especially when they don’t know what the outcome will be. Right. So the thing is, is that we’re lucky, right? Because in dentistry, you study for six years and you’re sort of conditioned to the next step, you know, like best practice, then you’re going to find a job and then that’s it. Like it’s all set out and you feel really comforted. But for those people, especially as you were like one of the earlier adopters [00:17:00] working out of something like a gym, like, how did.

Speaker1: You parents house at first?

Speaker2: Yeah. So how did you take that leap of faith? How did you work it out?

Speaker1: I saw that it was becoming successful and it was just becoming so unprofessional having people coming into my family home. I felt terrible for my parents. Like ringing people ringing on the doorbell at 10 p.m., my dog barking like it just didn’t make sense. And I thought, If I’m going to give this a proper go, I need to look into renting. So I rented that room.

Speaker2: How did [00:17:30] you make it work financially?

Speaker1: Aesthetics pays well, yeah. So I saw the money coming in. I figured out how much I can afford per month, found a space that could accommodate my financial budget. And yeah, it just worked. It did mean that I had to be more kind of conscious of, okay, I really need to see these extra aesthetic patients after work today, even though I didn’t feel like it because you’re tired from a whole clinical day. But that’s how it worked out. And then the more I was seeing patients, the more my diary was getting [00:18:00] full, the more I realised, actually, I can stop dentistry for now and and just yeah, take it from there.

Speaker2: Do you feel that working in aesthetics has impacted your mental health in a negative way?

Speaker1: I think most jobs can impact your negative, your mental health in a negative way depending on your mindset. So I could say yes at times it has, especially now as the industry is [00:18:30] becoming bigger, which is a benefit. But also imposter syndrome kicks in. There’s new kids on the block. I was the one that was kind of like at the forefront of it, I think in the dental world. Well, one of the few for sure, that put myself out there on social media, which is what allowed me to grow if I started out now, probably wouldn’t have grown to two the person or the the establishment that I’ve got now. But yeah, I’d say sometimes it affects [00:19:00] my mental health. I live in this kind of am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the wrong thing? Because I’m all for like embracing ourselves and embracing who we are and ageing gracefully. But then I’m here injecting people with with filler and toxin. But I also think I’m doing it properly. I’m doing it ethically. I’m consulting with the patient. I’m doing it in a medical kind of background, looking for red flags, saying no when I don’t believe it’s the right thing. So that’s how I make myself [00:19:30] feel like it’s okay.

Speaker2: I think that there’s like two folds to it, right? Because I think that also like social media, I know you feel like sometimes disconnected or so now you’ve got like automated messages, whereas I’m like heavily indebted to my followers as like, you know, someone like Karen and Bognor Regis will message me and I feel like I’m having an argument with her sometimes, you know, whereas Tara has an automated message basically says, this platform is not regulated. You know, one of those I’m sure you’ve seen it like if you want to [00:20:00] contact. So I know that you’ve been good at putting that in place. Was that for your mental health or was that more to kind of deal with, like the capacity of like, I don’t want to deal with bookings or was it also like I’m actually putting a boundary.

Speaker1: It was a boundary which I actually really struggled to put in place because similar to you, I was like, no, this is how I connect with people and this is how they feel like they can trust me if they can contact me. But it became like I was on, I’d be on holidays and anyone who I was on holiday with would know, right? Tara needs an hour and a half to, like, sort [00:20:30] through her bookings, to sort through her messages, because I used to do everything on my own. So it became it impacted my life. And yeah, I had to do it. And I was that person that didn’t have Facebook when everyone had it. But I got social media. I got Instagram for work. Yeah. So I am actually quite a private person.

Speaker3: Yeah, but did you not have a team?

Speaker1: No, not at the beginning. Nothing. I had no one got.

Speaker3: That busy without you having a.

Speaker1: Team. Yeah. It’s really.

Speaker3: So did you hire after that?

Speaker1: Yeah. So I hired [00:21:00] someone who’s now become my really good friend. She was actually a patient of mine at first, and she kind of assisted me with the back side of things. So taking bookings, responding to messages, changing appointments. I had no automated like book online system I had. Everything was paper notes. Um, so yes, I got her on board and we’re still friends and she works for my other company where I teach now. Um, and then eventually, kind of now I have [00:21:30] a PR like it’s moved from PR treatment coordinator. Um, you know, I work in a clinic where we’ve got great support.

Speaker2: So I think, you know, the one thing that I’m hearing as well, it’s very difficult for us as health care professionals to relinquish control. Yes. Control is a big thing. Like, we like to control every element and we don’t like to outsource that much in the beginning. Now I’m like, I will pay everyone everything to do everything, you know, but it’s a really difficult one, you know? And I was the same. And I didn’t even [00:22:00] like when I first graduated, like people doing my hygiene cleans, you know, I didn’t want to refer them to the hygienist because I wanted to do it myself. And it’s a funny thing because I think the control is such an important part of what we do. But also letting go of that control has been one of the best things for my mental health as well. You know, I think it’s been one of the best things because it’s allowed me to be more productive, and it’s allowed me to build the team of people. And I think you’ve got to just have some. You can’t live in fear. And what I’ve seen amongst the board [00:22:30] and in dentistry and medicine is people live in fear that if they let the control go, somehow the quality will be reduced or someone will steal their patients to.

Speaker3: Face the fact with delegation that the quality will drop. I disagree to start with. Yeah, to start with depends who you hire. Like if I go and hire the marketing manager of Procter and Gamble, the quality will go straight up. Right. But I’m saying the way the way these sort of businesses tend to work, we tend to give it to someone. Right. And so what you have to get yourself clear with is that the quality will drop to start [00:23:00] with. But once that person settled in and once you’ve developed that person, the quality will be up. Yeah, yeah, I think it’s that drop that we all worry about, but it’s understanding that having eight people at 70% is better than one person at 90% or whatever, you know, that’s that.

Speaker1: It’s nurturing, isn’t it? It’s nurturing your relationships. It’s nurturing your your company to be what you want it to be with the right people around. And I think when you know someone’s not right for you, that’s when you have to try and make that decision [00:23:30] to not try and make you make that decision to kind of maybe part ways about.

Speaker3: Taking that one step further. Have you managed to work out a way of delegating the actual work?

Speaker1: Yes.

Speaker3: So if someone wants to come and see you, do you somehow it’s hard.

Speaker2: It’s hard, man. It’s so.

Speaker1: Hard. But we’re getting there slowly. I’ve got two other dentists who do facial aesthetics within my team.

Speaker2: And did you train?

Speaker1: This is what I’m starting to love even more, and I’m realising I actually want to go more towards mentoring and I’m mentoring at the moment, so [00:24:00] I’ve trained them. I have kind of again nurtured them, I’ve helped them, I take them on courses, I invest in them, and I love watching them become who they are, becoming confident and obviously credit to them because they’re doing the work in the background also, but it allows me to feel really confident for my patients to see them, and that rubs off. If I’m talking about, you know, you should see doctor X for this. Sometimes they’re better at [00:24:30] me than me and I’m like, you know what? They’re actually the person I got here to do this treatment because they’re better than me. It transpires the patient believes me because they’ve come, because they trust me. And we can kind of then build that really lovely working relationship where we’re treating all around. So yeah, but it is taking time. It’s it’s a tough one because patients just don’t always want to do that.

Speaker2: I think also like what you’re saying there is also like letting go of ego. And I think that that’s a really important [00:25:00] thing to do, because when you realise that there are people around you that can do what you do better or will compliment the work you do, and you give it willingly, willingly, and you allow your team to have autonomy to make decisions. That’s always been my philosophy, and I’ve noticed that that’s not the philosophy of many other practitioners or practice owners. And I think that actually gives allows you to provide the best care for your patients. Absolutely. And it helps you and your mental health and [00:25:30] prioritise the things that you love as well. Because like you were saying. I realised I love podcasting surprise, surprise and being on television. And because I’ve decided to do like three days work, which means that my associates get more work and I kind of like, you know, like you said, there’s some patients that are really stuck. I can focus on the things that I love. And, you know, people are like, but you’re not like, you’re not monetising the podcast. And you could be in your clinic. And I’m like, it’s not about the money. It’s about the fact that, like, I just love being in here and winding Payman up in a room, you know? So [00:26:00] it’s just, you know, it’s such a fulfilling thing to do. And when I did like my mini series with Shivani, you know what I mean? It’s something that I genuinely love to do. You know, I love to talk to people and to connect to people. Having said that, though, Tara, have what was the lowest time in your life mental health wise?

Speaker1: So interestingly, it was just before Covid or the pandemic really became what it did when we got into lockdown. It was February, and [00:26:30] I remember saying to my assistant at the time, I said, I’m not going to be able to pay for this month because I’m not going to work this month. I just need to not do anything like I’m about to break. And funnily enough, two weeks later, lockdown was announced. So if it had to happen at any time, it was then for me it was like almost perfect timing because I just couldn’t take it anymore. I have worked a Saturday up until Covid every day until the age, from the age of 16, even [00:27:00] during uni. I don’t know why. I just felt this need to work, work, work and. I was very lost. I have been in a few abusive relationships in different ways, one of which was absolutely terrible and I don’t think I’d fully recovered. I was still like going through processing what had happened. Um, and I was finding myself. I was I mean, I’m still we’re always finding ourselves. Right. But it sounds really cliche, but I was finding myself and I didn’t give myself that time [00:27:30] to find. And yeah, I’d say that was my lowest time.

Speaker2: Yeah. And so do you feel like lockdown in a way, was helpful?

Speaker1: Oh, it was amazing. I moved in with my parents.

Speaker2: Some people loved it. Did you?

Speaker3: I mean, I was very worried for the business, but then once, once that sort of went out of the way, then you enjoyed it. Yeah.

Speaker1: I think what helped is that everyone was going through it at the same time. So you kind of had a bit of reassurance in that sense, and it felt a bit united. [00:28:00] Um, but yeah, no, it was best I was with my family. And, you know, we’re really lucky we have a garden, so I could just be in the garden and I would work out every day and cook, bake, listen to podcasts. And, you know, our industry, the aesthetics industry are adapted very, very quickly. They were doing online. Yeah.

Speaker2: Yeah. We did online.

Speaker1: Courses and stuff. So you still felt like you were in the know. It actually allowed me to delve deeper into skincare, which is something I’m so passionate about. Now I got the time to read up on it. I got the time to educate. [00:28:30] I got the time to consult patients, um, remotely. And you know, we could send them skincare. So I made the most of it, um, in both business, but also personal.

Speaker3: Tara, tell me about the difference between one skin doctor and the other. I mean, in terms of do.

Speaker2: You have do you mean facial aesthetics or do you mean.

Speaker3: Skin facial? Sorry. So do you have a style and do people come to you for your style?

Speaker1: Yeah. So my kind of tagline is enhance the [00:29:00] natural beauty. God, I can’t even remember my tagline. Enhance the beauty, natural beauty you already possess because I believe everyone has natural beauty and I’m not there trying to change anything. I just want people to feel more confident in their own skin. Um, so.

Speaker3: So if someone said something to you that you disagreed with, you actually wouldn’t do it or.

Speaker1: Yeah, no way. I think I’d say I say no to about 70% of the things people ask for. Um, yeah. They could come in and say, I want my nose and my lips done. And I’m like, you know what? Your lips [00:29:30] are actually great. Let’s just leave them. I’m not saying no, but let’s reassess in 6 to 9 months, because to me, I’m not going to make them any better right now. So yes.

Speaker3: In your experience, the difference between facial aesthetics patient and a cosmetic dental patient, insomuch as both of you have to look out for both, well, have an.

Speaker2: Interesting story to tell you. Go on. I have to.

Speaker3: Look out for that sort of body dysmorphia. Yeah. Where the problem isn’t the face of the teeth. The problem is something we have.

Speaker2: We have a mutual with this. Do you remember this? We do. Same [00:30:00] patient. Yeah. So listen, this this woman trapped, this woman travelled really far. She was from like, Wales or something. And basically she travelled really far to see me for the teeth. But she basically had a rhinoplasty and I think she had a revision as well. But she was obsessed with, like, this part of her face. So she booked a consultation with me. Her teeth were fine, right? But I think she felt like if she got her teeth done, it would change her nose. Do you see what I mean? Because of the way, like, the lip length is and stuff, meanwhile. But I just knew from her character [00:30:30] and the way she was presenting that she was someone not to be treated. You know, you’ve got those red flags. Yeah. And weirdly enough, she’d contacted Tara and I don’t know, we were both worked out that she contacted she talked, she contacted Tara for like surgical non rhino as well. And I think like we both sort of were like, right, we need to try and get rid of this patient because we need non-invasive filler.

Speaker2: So basically we both knew through our like assessment that this patient was like troubled because [00:31:00] you are going to get patients. And I really do feel for them as well. Like you do that get obsessive and I’ve got I’ve got two on the go right now when you’re just like, why am I doing this? Like obsessing over like minutiae detail. And, you know, I think like the more experienced you are, the more you’re going to be like, oh, but it’s really difficult because sometimes you’re in too deep. But when they start showing their true colours and you’re like, oh, this is a bit weird. And I think that has a profound effect on your mental health as well, because you’ll get texts and emails where, I mean, I’ve got someone. She presented a word document with her temporaries [00:31:30] and the Tryon and what she wanted compared and annotated at all. And you’re like, this is going to be a headache. Do you know what I mean? Because she’s never going to be happy. But you will get that. Do you know what I mean? You will get that.

Speaker1: You absolutely do. I think the more you’re in it, the more you can pick up. Similar to dentistry, you can pick up whether you, you know, it might not even be that you feel you can’t give them what they want. It might just be, you know what? You’re a personality that I’m not sure I can manage very well. Exactly. And we’re both going to be a bit unhappy with this. [00:32:00] So let’s just kind of I’m going to refer you on to someone who I think would be better suited, who I think could provide you with the care. That you deserve. Um, and that’s okay. I think we struggle, especially when we’re starting out. We feel like we have to say yes to everything, and we’re scared if if we don’t say yes, that patient’s going to go elsewhere and we’re going to lose business, but we end up saving ourselves so much more.

Speaker2: Yeah, exactly. Because along the way, the mental health aspect of it is so like it’s so, so much more important. You sound [00:32:30] now like you’ve got a little more balance. Would you say you’ve got more balance or not in your personal and work life?

Speaker1: I do have more balance. You know, I don’t think we’re ever I think we find balance. And then whoa, something comes in and you’re like, okay, now I have to rebalance. Yeah. And that, that, that period of time can be quite challenging, but it also allows to more growth. So yeah, right now I feel quite balanced. I’m you know I’ve really in the last year focussed on relationships and last the year [00:33:00] before I kind of became a bit of a recluse. I didn’t go to any industry events. I was just, you know what? This is my time. But I realised that didn’t necessarily make me that happy. And the more I read, the more I listen to podcasts and listen to professionals. You know, relationships are really important. So I try and invest my time in my relationships with friends and actually, it’s the best thing ever. I feel so lucky. Yeah, I feel so lucky. I say lucky, but you know, you know, I put the work in. I nurture again, nurture those relationships. But [00:33:30] I find, yeah, I’m getting it. I’m getting the balance. And with work I don’t work as many hours in clinic, but I take time in the background to do the admin side. And I like dedicate a day to that. So my Mondays are normally my admin days, and then the people that work within the companies I work with know that, okay, if we need to contact Tara to do anything, it’s on a Monday. Yeah. So there’s more boundaries in place. People can expect the right things from me. And yeah.

Speaker2: You also you [00:34:00] also have your facial aesthetics academy.

Speaker1: I do with a lovely Waseem.

Speaker2: So tell us a little bit about the the stages of that, how that happened, how that was born, the genesis as it were. That was the word I was looking for, the genesis of the lamb. Yeah. Um, and do you prefer your teaching over your clinical?

Speaker1: I think they go hand in hand. I think if you want to teach, you should still be doing along [00:34:30] the way, because so much can change in the world of aesthetics. We’re constantly finding out new techniques. New fillers are on the market, for example. Um, so I feel like that’s important to me. So they go hand in hand and that makes me enjoy them both, I think, just as much. But I’m definitely preferring the mentoring side as opposed to just teaching someone who comes on a day course. Um, so I’m the more kind of deeper aspect. I can help them with the business growth. I can help them treatment plan with a patient, I can help them [00:35:00] with their confidence and be like, you know what? You did a really good job there because I didn’t have that. It’s quite a lonely industry. Um, you’re in a room on your own. You don’t even have a nurse.

Speaker2: Competitive industry to so competitive.

Speaker1: We don’t.

Speaker2: Do well. There’s not enough cheerleading going on. And I think what what really shocked me within the aesthetic arena. And I think aesthetic facial aesthetics has worse, actually. And when I dabbled in it, I was like, I don’t want it. I don’t want to do this. People like really compete with each other. They use each other. Payman thinks I’m too sensitive, but that’s fine. You know, [00:35:30] I know that’s what you’re thinking, but it is really crazy because I’ve always been a cheerleader. I’ve always said, like, whenever I see someone doing really well, especially women, I’ve always cheerleaded and I’d want to learn from them. And what I realised is there’s so many relationships which are like transient people use you, people judge you, people gossip. And I really hate that about the sort of industries that we work in. But it might be the case in every industry. I don’t know, like my friend’s a jewellery designer, the one, you know, and she I [00:36:00] remember her saying, like, the jewellery industry is cutthroat, like the jewellers, like really compete with each other. So maybe it’s just every industry or successful in who knows, I think.

Speaker3: So I’ve got a I’ve got a question for you. Maybe it’s a bit Dental Leaders and mine movers. What are the things that go wrong the most often and that people should be looking out for more? And what’s been your biggest mistake that you’ve made with the with the facial aesthetics? Patient.

Speaker1: Oh, um, I can tell you the biggest mistake for us because it comes straight to mind. So there [00:36:30] was a patient who I had really built trust with. She’d gone elsewhere, wasn’t happy, came to me, you know, so thankful. Messaged me after I was like, you know, you made me feel so comfortable, etcetera, etcetera. Really happy with the results. That was her first time with me. Second time, um, we did a lip enhancement and I think a few days later she had messaged and sent me pictures and said, I’m really unhappy. There’s this, this, that. And I was like, this is not my work. Like, I [00:37:00] know my work. I’ve got my before and afters. Her afters are here. This does not look like this could happen. So I kind of jumped the gun and became very defensive because I feel very confident in the work that I do, and I kind of called her a liar without calling her a liar. And then I realised what I had done. So I kind of said, try to explain where I was coming from, and I said, please come in. Can I just see it in person? Let’s talk about it. And she was she was no, she was [00:37:30] as sweet as she could be. And but said her piece and I really appreciated that she said her piece saying, you know, I feel a bit disheartened that you you said that. I said, I’m sorry. And yeah, I checked in on her like a month or two later, she replied, but I had lost, lost that. So I think that’s the biggest mistake, is becoming defensive very quickly. So because I care about my work so much and it was such a small thing in person, it didn’t look anything like the picture she had sent me.

Speaker2: But that’s the thing patients will also scrutinise, [00:38:00] and I think that’s the danger about like iPhones and social media like, which obviously you didn’t have, they’ll be there. You see this photo in this lie on a selfie in this angle, and you have your professional, like, 4K photos and you’re like, no, like anyone can make like, I could even make my composite veneers look bad from certain angles. Do you know what I mean? Like, you have to, like, recognise we’re also dealing with like, Snapchat dysmorphia, you know, like filters [00:38:30] and lights and all these different things being used. And I think that that’s extremely challenging. But like what you said, I sometimes find it really hard because with the recent stuff that’s been going on in the news, I have found it really hard to function. I find it really hard to function like, as you know, like my grandfather’s like Palestinian Lebanese. I have Middle Eastern family. I found it really hard and seeing human suffering has always really affected me. Like I’m a massive empath as payments are like massively like, if you started crying right now, I’d probably [00:39:00] start crying like I’m such an empath so I can just like I’m absorbing all the stuff that I’m seeing constantly. And I’ve worked in refugee camps, so it’s very hard hitting. Anyway, I had a patient come in and when the patient came in, they were the most beautiful veneers that we tried in like stunning. And I wouldn’t just say because when they’re not good, I’ll send them back. Beautiful feldspathic like trans, like all the stuff I try them in, I’m like, they’re amazing. She’s going to love them. She’s there with the mirror like this, right? And I’m [00:39:30] just like, and she’s pointing at an embrasure, not knowing. And obviously I called my technician.

Speaker2: He’s like, you better send the whole lot back instead of cementing everything. And I think I became a bit short with her because I didn’t shout. I didn’t get defensive, but I think I became short, you know what I mean? And you could tell sort of from my like, sort of like body language because energy doesn’t lie. And then afterwards I was like, you can’t behave like this, Rhona. You’re the dentist. Like they the patient is always right, you know, and I had to send the I felt really bad, like you said, because I was like. [00:40:00] I obviously called him like, I’m just checking in. I’m really sorry if it was a bad experience. Yeah. Overcompensating. But it’s really hard. And I think that’s one of the reason too. Yeah, exactly. I think that’s one of the big things, is that we really struggle with our own mental health because we can’t show emotion. And sometimes when I come home, my fiance, fiance can say that now my fiance, I end up shouting and screaming and he’s like, she goes, don’t take this out on me. And I’m like, but I need to express myself. I need [00:40:30] to express myself. And the thing is, is like, it’s just true. Like anger is a healthy emotion and we spend all day long suppressing our emotions for patients. But it’s healthy to be sad and it’s healthy to be angry, and it’s healthy to be happy. And like, I don’t believe in toxic positivity where we’re happy because like you said, like we have to sometimes express it. And I was like, how do we deal with it though, when a patient has also upset us? Scream into a pillow? I don’t know what the answer is. By the way.

Speaker1: I think you find your own coping mechanisms mechanisms, don’t you? What works for you? [00:41:00] So for me, it might just be like having a moment, taking some deep breaths, writing some like, I hate this person, you know, and just get it out the system, rip it.

Speaker2: Payman said. Actually, he writes out the text message of anger and doesn’t send it.

Speaker1: Yeah, that’s what I do. Yeah, I do exactly that.

Speaker3: Somehow it helps me. Yeah, I.

Speaker2: Get it, I get it. Today I started writing notes to a person that’s no longer in my life that I still think about. That triggers me. And I wrote it all out. It was like a stream of consciousness. Quite poetic actually. One day I might publish it, but. But I was like, I’m [00:41:30] writing it out and I’m hoping this is going to like, let out my emotions because I’m hurt.

Speaker3: Interesting. I’ve recently been on the other side of the coin where my son had his braces off.

Speaker2: And you’re not happy.

Speaker3: It wasn’t me, my wife. But but but the nicotine, like, you know, she she got down to this point of it could just be a little bit more, you know, a bit more like this, a bit more like that. And we went back three times to the orthodontist.

Speaker2: And they know your dentist’s. Both of you.

Speaker3: Do you here? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but [00:42:00] but it was it wasn’t Invisalign. It was. You know why. So he was he was bending wires and and all that. And I remember by the. She was right the first time I thought the second and third time, I was like, you know, come on guys, done this work. But but but she was she was like, you know, you only do this once. We got to get it right. And then the weird thing was once it was all finished, no one ever talked about it ever again. It was. We built.

Speaker1: It up. We built it up.

Speaker3: To something really important.

Speaker2: There are, there are, there are those rogue people as well. I think also, if you’re [00:42:30] on social media, the worst thing that ever happened to me and I’m going to open up, you know, a little bit, I don’t want to start crying because it was the worst thing that’s happened to me. I had a patient turn against me because of another dentist, because the other dentist who’s not, who’s newly qualified, by the way, one year had commented on my work and guided the patient towards a hellish year for me, a hellish as in to the point that I wanted to quit and felt [00:43:00] suicidal. And I thought this person, this dentist, just looks at my social media and assumes for some reason something or other and thinks that I’m dead. Because one thing I’ll never do, and I think that there’s probably a common understanding, even if you do not like the work another dentist has done. Never. It is not your place to comment or turn them against. I mean, I saw some a patient last week and she had a blatant root fracture and a six millimetre eight millimetre pocket had been going to her dentist every three months. [00:43:30] Dentist hadn’t picked it up and she kept saying, but she’s like, why? Why hasn’t he picked up? She was a new consultation. I said, do you know what? It could have just happened recently. That’s all I said. I said I wasn’t there to comment, but I was like, don’t worry about it. I’m sure he’s done the best job, you know, because I really believe it’s so important that we have each other’s back. Knowing the statistics that dentistry has one of the highest suicide rates, you know, it could be.

Speaker1: Us that misses it one day. I mean, I’d like to think we wouldn’t, but you just never know. Like nothing is impossible. So. Yeah, it’s it’s kind of like, hopefully we can [00:44:00] kind of give that other dentist a heads up and be like, listen, just wanted to let you know x, y, z. I think that would have been the nicer, more kind, more kind of camaraderie thing to do.

Speaker3: Yeah, probably the inexperience of the other dentist though. Yeah. Because when you when you’re newly qualified, you might not have even heard this before, this idea, you know, you might say something that where your words are incorrect, you know, when you’re newly qualified, it was.

Speaker2: A little bit more malicious than that. It was a little bit I mean, you know, we can we can share details. But I was just I was just really shocked. And [00:44:30] look, at the end of the day, I mean, like I’m a massive believer in karma anyways. And that’s what guides me. Calm has always been my guiding like force where I’m like, I don’t want to do bad on other people because I believe that it could come back to me. I genuinely believe that, you know, there’s some people that constantly commit stuff like fraud or like they’re serial cheaters. I’m like, I’m just too worried about, like the guilt and like the guilt and the like, you know, the repercussions of it all, you know? Yeah. Um, so you’ve talked a little bit about how [00:45:00] you’ve had some toxic relationships. Yes. And how they have shaped you. I recently saw a quote and saying, they say, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. But I would say, what doesn’t kill you makes you deeply traumatised, hypervigilant and, you know, constantly worried about being in pain. It’s sort of like funny, but not do you know what I mean? You know that statement. Would you say that those experiences did shape you, or do you feel they have left you somewhat traumatised and unable to move on in some parts of your life? [00:45:30]

Speaker1: Um, so. I’d say what? And I realise this maybe a few years later. Is that what it does is it makes you question your own worth. Worth, but also your own integrity and understanding who this person is to you. So you would you’d put yourself in this situation and make yourself believe that this person is okay. And you know what? They’re just doing it because they love me. Or you know what? He said he’s going to get better [00:46:00] or he’s not going to do X to me again. Um, and you question your own, like, what’s the what’s the word I’m trying to say.

Speaker2: Integrity.

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s like your own judgement. It makes you question your own judgement on the people around you. And that was the hardest thing. Also. Yeah, there are things that I didn’t realise were affecting me like I’d be. There were moments I was scared to drive down my street. I would turn my lights off on my car just in case that [00:46:30] person was there. You know, my ex was there because he would like he’d literally be waiting out there because I didn’t reply to his message. So I was scared to even go home. And like, that’s only just starting to wear off, you know, and in future relationships and the relationship I’m in now, I’m in such a like, caring, loving, safe, safe relationship. I had to seek therapy because I was like, I could ruin this relationship. Yeah. Preaching to.

Speaker2: The choir. Preaching to the.

Speaker1: Choir. Yeah. And interestingly, go ahead.

Speaker3: Yeah.

Speaker1: No. Please do.

Speaker3: No, no, go ahead.

Speaker1: I said interestingly, yeah. [00:47:00] One of those relationships, the worst one I still kind of have to be around or be reminded of because they’re within the industry. Well, partly within the industry that I’m in now. So that is a major struggle because, whoa, you don’t realise the trauma that like triggers, it’s like, whoa, go into fight or flight. Um, so yeah, it’s it’s been interesting but very challenging. And I’m really proud of myself.

Speaker2: We talked about we had a guest on as well that talked. I’d asked him about [00:47:30] this. I asked him about gut feelings and anxiety, and I said that I struggle because I don’t know if it’s my gut feeling because people say, you know, when you know. And then I say, but I don’t know when I know, because also sometimes it’s my anxiety. But I’m like, is that my gut? Should I listen? But then in hindsight, it’s my anxiety. Do you know what I mean? And it’s a really difficult, challenging thing because sometimes you can feel it like physically. But if you suffer from anxiety, it couldn’t be, you know what I mean? Because you’re constantly in fight or flight. Yeah. And I think that that’s a difficulty. And also there’s like safety somehow like also if you are used [00:48:00] to trauma or you’re used to uncertainty, it’s actually feels safer than certainty sometimes. So for example, if you’re in a safe relationship you’re not used to it. You somehow feel unsafe because you’re used to chaos. And chaos is familiar, and we always want to go back to what’s familiar to us. So it’s quite an interesting dynamic. Payman doesn’t have these issues, but I know what you mean, you know? And so and I find that I try to go back to chaos sometimes, you know, I’m interested in.

Speaker3: Okay, first of all, you were worried about your judgement. I how didn’t I see [00:48:30] it and all that. But I mean, it sounds like you’ve done some work with therapists and all that. Yeah. Is there something that you think that I’m guilty of attracting the wrong person?

Speaker1: Oh, absolutely. Now I realise I’m not guilty. But there was a point where I was like, why did I let myself go through that? That was the hardest thing. Like, how could I let myself stay in that for however long and then go into another relationship that was abusive in a different way?

Speaker3: But when I say guilty, not not necessarily that it’s your fault, right? More in so much as like [00:49:00] is there is there is there something from your childhood? Is there some, some, some standard you were trying to reach, some something you’re going to please your dad or whatever it was that that made you more prone to accepting this from from your partners. Yeah.

Speaker1: So I’m a really big believer in everything stems from childhood to the point. My friends are like, okay, Tara, like, you don’t need to psychoanalyse me right now. Um, so yes, I do believe that. I think I was so used to conforming to what [00:49:30] what I thought my parents wanted from me that this was kind of like my rebellious phase. And this was excitement. This was, yeah, a way for me to just, like, even when I was angry, I’d shout, like, to the point I’ve never shouted before. I remember I was in a room and I was screaming and I hadn’t. I would never do that at home. Like that was my way of just like releasing. And maybe I didn’t think I was worth enough to be worthy enough to be loved. And those men in my life, unfortunately, kind of helped me [00:50:00] believe that I wasn’t worthy enough trauma bond.

Speaker2: He was asking me what a trauma bond was earlier. Yeah. And I was trying to explain, yeah, that that’s exactly what a trauma bond is. And we sometimes mistaken that like deep. You’re like, this is the one. I have to make it work. And again, it’s actually a trauma bond. I compared it to Johnny Depp and Amber heard. You know, like that was such a toxic trauma bond relationship. And you see a lot of those in the public eye, by the way, you know, super toxic, super fiery. And that’s the thing. Like, you know, you just [00:50:30] you want something to be like that. That uncertainty somehow makes us really engaged as human beings, and we see that in all aspects of our life. And if you could choose another career, what would it be and why?

Speaker1: Something to do with dogs? Love it because I just love them. They are just are the best things. Like they make me happy. They’re just so loving. [00:51:00] Yeah. Dogs. A dog walker. Maybe like a dog. Home.

Speaker2: Would you be a vet or not?

Speaker1: I’ve thought about that, but I don’t know if I’d be able to deal with the kind of saddest stuff.

Speaker2: Oh, really?

Speaker1: Yeah, I did think about that. But no, just something like, you know, like a play den or like something like that. And who knows, maybe it will happen. Yeah, I even looked into dog cleaning.

Speaker2: I love cleaning, yeah. No, literally, you know, they can get perio. Dogs can get really bad.

Speaker3: Perio. Yeah I can imagine. Yeah.

Speaker2: You know and carries. They can do. My family [00:51:30] would tell my friends to brush their teeth. Do you brush your dog’s teeth?

Speaker1: Yeah. My my dog. Yeah a family dog. We didn’t do that unfortunately. Did he.

Speaker2: Get carries? Império.

Speaker1: He had 16 teeth pulled down.

Speaker2: See, you got to brush their teeth.

Speaker3: Yeah, I’ve seen those things where they do almost like a doggy spa thing. Yeah, I love those. See? What?

Speaker1: Like, how fun would that be?

Speaker3: Can’t get enough of this.

Speaker2: Literally. Do you have a dog?

Speaker3: No. I want one really badly. But my family aren’t.

Speaker2: I know dogs do bring one home. And dogs, dogs? Dogs are therapy now, Tara, you said you were also quite introverted person. [00:52:00] Yes. Yeah. Do you have a social media profile? Yeah. Um. And you have to talk to patients all day. How do you manage that? Are you an extrovert? Introvert? Is that what they call them these days?

Speaker1: I don’t know which way around it is, but I’m definitely an introvert. I am extroverted when I feel comfortable, when I know the people I’m around in work, I kind of have to like fake it till you make it kind of thing. It’s a thing and I believe in it. And, um. Yeah, I’d [00:52:30] say at work I’m confident in what I do so I can maybe be perhaps a little bit more extroverted. Um, but family home. I’m quite a quiet person, but I can have my moments. Like, I can just be, like, silly. I’ve got, like, my cousin and my sister, who I guess are my, like, who I’ve grown up with. They’ve seen, like, the silly side to me. So I think it just depends on who I’m around. However, being at work, constantly talking to patients, engaging with them, it’s a bit different to dentistry [00:53:00] because dentistry, they’re like with their mouth open. You’re not really talking to them for for the time you’re treating. However, during what I’m doing, people are nervous of what they’re going to look like, of what it’s going to feel like, um, of what people are going to think of them if they’ve had it done. So I’m like trying to overcompensate and just make them feel so comfortable because I want them to feel comfortable. I want them to feel excited for this journey and for something that they want. That at the end of the day, I’m pooped. Like I go home and I’m ready [00:53:30] to just go to bed.

Speaker2: And not talk to anyone.

Speaker1: Just pet my dog, have some food. I don’t even watch TV. It’s too much stimulus. I just, you know, put some candles on and then I just write journal. If I can read, go to bed.

Speaker3: How many different clinics do you work in exclusively?

Speaker1: I work in one at the moment for facial aesthetics, and then I teach with the Academy, so that’s in a different location.

Speaker3: Yeah. And would you say overall, is it is it just you or would you say, would you advise someone that it’s a better life than being a dentist?

Speaker1: I [00:54:00] think wherever your passion lies, it’s important to focus on that. I think financially aesthetics can be great. And as a woman who is thinking about, you know, maybe one day having a family, I think aesthetics works better for me in that sense, because I can kind of choose my own hours. I mean, if I had my own clinic, dental clinic, it might be a bit different, but I can choose my own hours. I can choose how long I want the day to be. [00:54:30] I don’t need to sit in a certain position for a certain amount of time. Um.

Speaker3: It suits you.

Speaker1: It suits me.

Speaker2: Yeah. I really hated aesthetics.

Speaker3: I dabbled pretty surprised at that.

Speaker2: Now I just, like, thought it’s right.

Speaker3: No.

Speaker2: Do you know what? First of all, like Tara said, like, I really hated anatomy. I don’t have a 3D brain. So as in, like, when I’m looking at you now, I don’t actually really know where the nerves and stuff are, even though we sort of deal with it. So I find it really hard. In school, I had to work much harder at biology than I did chemistry. Chemistry [00:55:00] came natural to me because I found biology really difficult. Like I was sort of just seeing words I didn’t really understand, you know, where they were. So it never came to me naturally. And then when it came to injecting, I just found like I couldn’t see anything. Whereas like with the tooth and dentistry, do you know, I mean, you can see the enamel and dentine, you can see the pulp, you can see a prep, you can see your margins. Yeah. It’s to blind. That’s probably why I stopped. Endo is like years ago. Do you know what I mean? I fractured loads of files in my time. Yeah, exactly. So I prefer [00:55:30] that element of it. I didn’t like the industry. I found the industry like worse than dentistry, which says something. And I also found it very challenging dealing with people that were so obsessed with their face. Like, for some reason, I still think there’s more of a stigma with getting stuff done to your face than your teeth. Have you noticed that, like, people are very like, oh, I’m having Invisalign, whitening and bonding or like I’m having minimal prep veneers that don’t involve. But whereas now they’re still be, as you know, like with other guests that we talked about, like they’re having like their lips done or a [00:56:00] rhinoplasty or anything like that, there is some sort of stigma related to the anti-aging or enhancement of the face compared to the anti-aging or enhancement of the teeth. Definitely. So I think like for me as well, even though cosmetic dentistry is also cosmetic enhancement, the type of people you attract are somewhat different. It’s different.

Speaker1: So different people don’t want to tell people that they’ve come to see me. Yeah, well, most of them, which is actually quite a struggle to build a business. A lot of it is word of mouth, but I’ll have patients. Obviously everything is confidential [00:56:30] anyway, but they’ll come out to exclusively say, please don’t tell them that I’ve had this done. And of course I wouldn’t do that because we’ve been taught patient confidentiality and we understand the importance of it. But it’s it’s yeah, it’s really hard to actually grow a business in aesthetics because of that. You know, I have so many influencers, so many like, you know, people in the on TV, but they might come and talk about going to a dentist, but they wouldn’t come and talk about getting the facialist facialist. Yeah, facial aesthetics done. So it’s a shame, but it’s [00:57:00] changing.

Speaker2: So, Tara, yes, it’s been amazing to have you. We could talk for ages. I want to ask a final question as well. And I think this is really important. One thing that really strikes me as you’re speaking is that you’ve overcome a lot of adversity, but particularly because you’ve built a successful clinic, being naturally an introverted person, I’m going to go back into this because a lot of people would say that they look up to certain people on social media and they. Feel that they can’t put [00:57:30] themselves out there because they don’t have the confidence. But you just said that you’re naturally introverted. So what would be your advice for somebody that wants to create, you know, a business of their dreams but doesn’t necessarily have the confidence because they feel that they’re limiting factor is that they’re not outspoken?

Speaker1: There are so many businesses out there where you don’t know who that person is behind it. You don’t have to be the face of a brand. I think you have to understand what you want. Success is different to everyone. [00:58:00] Some people, success is having a really lovely home life and, you know, having that time to themselves for three days a week and some it might be a business. And I think look at businesses that you admire. Look at what they’ve done and look at how you can emulate that. And if you can’t do that, if you’ve got the means to find a way to help yourself by getting someone else on board to help you do that, if it’s public speaking that might be involved, get some training in public [00:58:30] speaking like there’s no harm in bettering yourself in different areas. I mean, I’ve looked into public speaking not because I want a public speak, but because I want to improve on how I can put myself across. And you never know what opportunities might come just like that. Why not kind of arm myself with that skill?

Speaker2: And you know what? It’s funny because one of our guests, we were saying we were trying to have empathy for the kind of like unconfident boy that looks up to toxic [00:59:00] men now in society and blame women and hate women because they can’t speak to women. And she said, oh, just stop being pathetic. Like you want to learn how to talk to women. Literally go on YouTube and people will provide videos and provide videos on how to talk to women. And you can find it from a woman and from a man. So there is no reason like we have.

Speaker3: You see there if I, if I if a woman had said something like that and I say stop being pathetic, you would have you would have broken, you would have hit me down.

Speaker2: Listen, listen. Yeah. Because it’s a.

Speaker3: Guy you can say.

Speaker2: Stop being. No, no, no, I know, listen, I have [00:59:30] a lot. I listen, I have a lot of empathy for that, that kind of, you know, for that kind of person. Anyway, Tara, it’s such a pleasure to have you. You have been a great mentor and friend and continue to build a really successful business. Your insights have been so valuable. Speak up more. We love it.

Speaker1: Oh thank you. I’ll drive.

Speaker2: Thank you for coming on my much.

Speaker1: Thank you so much for coming. Thank you.