Speaker1: Think Michael Pollan talks about this incredibly well is that you can have this experience and you can get [00:00:05] to the summit and you can see the horizon. But the reality is when you come, come down from [00:00:10] come off, this experience is that the integration then commences. You have [00:00:15] to climb that gain and there may not be a rope.

Speaker2: This [00:00:20] is mind movers. Moving the conversation forward [00:00:25] on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your [00:00:30] hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Speaker3: Welcome [00:00:35] to another episode of Mind Movies. Today we have the incredible [00:00:40] Simon Salter. Simon is a very important person in my life. The reason why [00:00:45] I started this podcast is to discuss mental health, and he’s been pivotal to my [00:00:50] healing, to introducing me to the right people. He’s one of the most charismatic [00:00:55] and magnetic individuals that I’ve ever met. And he [00:01:00] started a business called dirty. I’m sure you all know about it. I have been raving [00:01:05] about it on my social media. I’ve had a lot of dentists by dirty as well, but the genesis [00:01:10] of dirty isn’t the only thing that Simon and his brother [00:01:15] Andrew started. He had several business adventures, which we’re going to touch upon as well, but [00:01:20] obviously focus mainly on the benefits of mushrooms. How you started, [00:01:25] and I’m just so thrilled to have you today for this conversation. So thanks for joining us, Simon. [00:01:30]

Speaker1: Um, I don’t know where to begin with my thanks. It’s always hard when someone compliments you with [00:01:35] a small or big. How do you receive that? But, um, I’m very happy with those words. That kind words. I’m [00:01:40] taking.

Speaker3: Them.

Speaker1: Take it. Thank you so much. Welcome, welcome. And thank you.

Speaker3: So, um, [00:01:45] Simon, I want to talk a little bit about, um, your background. Right. So, [00:01:50] as I said, I want to know about the genesis of dirty, how it started. One time we had a dinner party at [00:01:55] my house, um, with my parents, and they told me as well, like, you know, they have had other businesses I [00:02:00] remember, like America. The American story makes me laugh.

Speaker1: Still being kicked out of [00:02:05] America. Okay.

Speaker3: And yeah. So tell us a little bit about kind of, you know, your businesses before, [00:02:10] uh, where you were, you know, at and how dirty started.

Speaker1: So, um, ah, [00:02:15] well, there’s so many ways to kind of approach this one. Um, and like I said, I don’t want to if [00:02:20] I go off this way, you bring me back here. Um, but it’s always been my brother and I, um, [00:02:25] we there’s a there’s a distinction in age. Uh, I’m just turned 40. [00:02:30] He’s 33. But if you certainly put us up against each other, I do hope you think that he’s older. Um, [00:02:35] with his biblical look from beard to hair. Um, and I say that because it’s really defined [00:02:40] to where we are now. You know, we’ve always got behind something we passionately believe in. We’re very unconventional [00:02:45] creatures, I’d say, and to the point that we’re incredibly unemployable. No one really wanted [00:02:50] us. And if they did, we didn’t last longer than than a week. And, you know, um, so [00:02:55] if it’s about where it started, it started when we met a lady by the name [00:03:00] of Wendy Goff, who lost her son to testicular cancer at the age of 18. Uh, [00:03:05] she gave a talk at my brother’s school. And it was [00:03:10] an extraordinary story because she said it was so much grit and at such a young age, [00:03:15] she she captured our imaginations. It was the fact that he lost his life because, uh, [00:03:20] it was a cancer that was treatable. But for him, uh, like [00:03:25] any a guy, we kind of, like, dismiss anything that’s about, uh, mortality. We just get on with our life. [00:03:30] Yeah. 18. Uh, there was something going on that was irregular down below.

Speaker1: And, [00:03:35] um, when he spoke to his mother about it, it was. She knew as a doctor it was far too late. [00:03:40] So she was now looking at a sand timer with her son, I mean, and I looked [00:03:45] at my and I was talking to my brother afterwards because what she shared, which was a very profound [00:03:50] statement that, you know, most cancers are treatable in the early stages. It just happened to be that testicular cancer [00:03:55] is near enough, 100% treatable. Now. It was what I kind of got from that. [00:04:00] My brother and I got that it was prevention. It was prevention over cure at a time when social media [00:04:05] was pretty much the mouthpiece where we can connect. It was a time where we felt this was an important [00:04:10] message to share. So we tend to kind of when I say we’re unconventional, we kind of see things [00:04:15] from a different perspective. So with that in mind, um, I kind of think [00:04:20] how old I was, but I was young and he was younger. Uh, we decided to, to create a campaign that [00:04:25] would penetrate that taboo and create a conversation online. And the great thing about [00:04:30] online is you can go anywhere and do everything you like. The bandwidth is limitless. So cut a very long story [00:04:35] short, we created something called Feeling Nuts. It started in 2000. Uh, got [00:04:40] your attention. Yeah, that’s all it ever was. And it’s supposed to be. And [00:04:45] we’re an attention seeking generation. Hence the success of social media.

Speaker3: How old were you then? [00:04:50]

Speaker1: Um. How old? How young? What?

Speaker3: How young were you then?

Speaker1: I was I was [00:04:55] early 20s. Okay, fine. What were you.

Speaker4: Doing? What were you doing before? What was your work at that point? [00:05:00]

Speaker1: Um. We weren’t we were just always coming up with ideas. [00:05:05] Uh, back then, I’d just come out of university, and he hadn’t been to university. He was. [00:05:10] He was building up an event side of business, actually, and I was building up a PR kind of idea of a business. [00:05:15] And we were coming together with ideas and there were things that we were doing. But it was really this that [00:05:20] kind of became a tipping point to our journey. Um, so [00:05:25] we decided that we were going to create a campaign. But in order to do so, [00:05:30] we had to go to the epicentre of entertainment being Los Angeles. So. We [00:05:35] didn’t have the means at the time, but we had patrons who would support us in [00:05:40] our endeavour was that we felt that we could actually make this a movement that wouldn’t just be a campaign. [00:05:45] So we did go to America with the support of others, and [00:05:50] we navigated that entertainment industry, sharing our message that we wanted to kind of raise awareness about [00:05:55] this. And we had our strategy and everything planned. Um, I don’t know if you want me to veer [00:06:00] off to why we got kicked out, but there we go.

Speaker3: Well, go on then. Summarise [00:06:05] it. It’s quite.

Speaker1: Funny. It’s, uh, so the idea of us, you know, we basically had this campaign, [00:06:10] it was doing so well in the UK, it was a hashtag called Philly Nuts. We’re getting people to kind of, uh, spread [00:06:15] the message about keeping their nuts in check or their partners to keep their nuts in check. And it was basically [00:06:20] using the hashtag. We would empower a whole community of people with the simple ways to keep [00:06:25] in check. And then you, uh, the, the influence of your community, do anything [00:06:30] you like, be through poetry, music, dance, whatever the expression was. And everyone got on board about on it, on it. [00:06:35] And, um, then this thing started where my brother and I pulled our trousers [00:06:40] down, grabbed our crotch, and, uh, we were challenging the world. Philly nuts. It was just [00:06:45] before the ice bucket challenge. So it was. It was, I remember that. Yeah. So [00:06:50] we started this idea where we would challenge our audience. And I think we challenged, [00:06:55] like, One Direction, five seconds of summer. No way. Uh, Sam Branson, [00:07:00] who was a pivotal part in that kind of moment for us. And it kicked off something very big [00:07:05] whilst that store’s going on, we’re going back to North America. But, you know, every time we go to customs, we’re not [00:07:10] saying that we’re, um, we’re saying we’re there. Was it Easter? Um, yeah. But, [00:07:15] um, uh, so what happened, uh, after coming back [00:07:20] from New York, from a few things we were doing there because of the movement was becoming so big, and we were going to [00:07:25] be creating a show.

Speaker1: Sounds so random because I’m not going to go too far into it. But we were going [00:07:30] to create, um, the event which was going to be in New York and LA. But not to worry [00:07:35] too much about it. The most important thing was, um, when we came back from New York, I lost my passport. [00:07:40] Now, when I got my new passport, we were coming back to, um, to New York because we were in a position [00:07:45] of signing, actually a quite big deal with ABC. Um, I got to the [00:07:50] airport and whilst we were in the air, apparently my esta visa declined. So the moment I landed [00:07:55] there, about 4 or 5 officers waiting for me, TSA officers, um, this is the period [00:08:00] of time when the TSA was massive, as you know, there were so many people working for them, but there’s not any more, [00:08:05] I don’t think. Um, so they, um, they decided to take [00:08:10] me to secondary. Um, they crossed. They did the whole Spanish Inquisition. They [00:08:15] put me in a position for like 6 or 7 hours where they interrogated me. Actually, I brought my brother in. He was fine to go, [00:08:20] but there was no way I was going to that situation without my brother. Um, so they, [00:08:25] uh, they we were there for eight, ten hours. Um, and then I all I remember [00:08:30] was when they left, we were just left in this secondary space. I don’t know if you’ve ever been in it before, but it’s not as [00:08:35] an Iranian.

Speaker4: Yeah. Very, very used to secondary. I don’t want to I don’t want to.

Speaker1: Stereotype a.

Speaker4: Situation. [00:08:40]

Speaker1: Not a nice place to be. And certainly when you’re in the position of the unknown, you know, we had no [00:08:45] reputation. So whatever happens, happens. Um, but then in a distance, you heard the clanking of chains. The new [00:08:50] officers were coming in, uh, so they shackled us. You know, you had to put your arm in the air. They put chain [00:08:55] around you, and, you know, they go through this whole kind of process. It was very it was very bad behaviour on their behalf. [00:09:00] And I say that because the letter we got was phenomenal, um, afterwards. But they, you know, within 24 [00:09:05] hours of landing, we’re back in the UK never to come back to the US again. Um, but another very long story [00:09:10] short, we went through the process of actually being of finding out who is the head of immigration, [00:09:15] who reports to Barack Obama. We guess the email we showed them everything we’re doing with this wonderful [00:09:20] video of Ant and Dec as a pair of testicles talking about this campaign that we’re doing. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. [00:09:25] And just the pursuit we were on and we got a letter back of an apology. He charged us with an [00:09:30] amazing team. And, um, now, uh, there’s [00:09:35] a whole process, but we got our visa, so we were able to go back to America. [00:09:40] But by that point, we’d actually started it all in the UK because of how long it took. Um, [00:09:45] so we can go back to America. It’s okay, but we’ll definitely every single [00:09:50] time I go into secondary for some odd reason. But, um, so, um, the [00:09:55] campaign became massive. The reason that it’s probably important to tell you that story is because, uh, it [00:10:00] became one of the biggest social movement of, of our generation. We engaged with over 2 billion [00:10:05] people worldwide who individually got involved in the campaign in some capacity.

Speaker3: With social media. Big [00:10:10] back then, uh.

Speaker1: Vine was big.

Speaker4: Vine.

Speaker3: I remember.

Speaker1: That. Um, so [00:10:15] we were always I say that because we’re always trending on vine, because everyone was doing something like grabbing their crotch or [00:10:20] talking about, uh, getting, you know, being in check, you know, awareness was our social currency. [00:10:25] I feel back then, um, and then it, um, it culminated in [00:10:30] a, in a big TV show on channel four, the O2 arena. So we found a way of, like, building a. Massive [00:10:35] movement and which was a campaign to the show. So the bigger the the awareness, [00:10:40] the bigger the TV show will be at the O2. So it was a wonderful show. It was presented [00:10:45] by Jack Whitehall, James Corden, uh, One Direction, Cara Delevingne.

Speaker3: Can I see it? Is it still [00:10:50] available online? Yeah, you can find it.

Speaker1: Yeah. There’s. Yeah, there’s, um, it became one of the leading [00:10:55] prime time entertainment shows because we Andy and I felt like we knew with the people around us that supported [00:11:00] us, we knew how to create attention. And which is why [00:11:05] I think, you know, that part of the story is important because that became our blueprint for life, you know, that became [00:11:10] our blueprint when we went on to kind of also manage, uh, and bring back David Haye from retirement [00:11:15] back into heavyweight division, uh, to going to, uh, build our company [00:11:20] limelight, which was almost like this marketing agency incubator where we would support, invest, [00:11:25] um, cutting edge ideas, businesses, founders, and take their vision and [00:11:30] find a way to scale and become like a leading category king.

Speaker3: Um, [00:11:35] but then. So then how was Dirty Born then out of all of that? And do you think that, [00:11:40] you know, you’re so obviously, you know, this philanthropic, you know, pursuit [00:11:45] is the reason why you were like, I want to do something meaningful because that’s what I’m hearing, right? You know, [00:11:50] it’s incredible to have all these success. But I think the most important thing that I’m hearing is that you wanted [00:11:55] to have meaning and impact for the right cause, right? Because you started out with something like wanting to help [00:12:00] somebody with cancer. Um, and then that, you know, I always say that like, [00:12:05] a life of meaning is one of the most important things. I’m lucky. I love my job because I know that I’ve [00:12:10] got a difference, you know, in that kind of sense. So my question is, you know, [00:12:15] how was Dirty Born then after that?

Speaker1: Um, so dirty was born [00:12:20] out of a time. Uh, I’d say it was.

Speaker3: Was it the pandemic?

Speaker1: Actually, [00:12:25] we started it came out of the pandemic. We we got involved in mushrooms probably about six [00:12:30] years ago because we would see our family and friends going through these symptoms [00:12:35] of anxiety or chronic symptoms or sleep deprivation and physical and [00:12:40] mental fatigue. Um, and in a time when there’s so much knowledge out there, the one [00:12:45] thing that prevails is white noise and going to see your GP. But there are alternative [00:12:50] ways to kind of become reclaim the power of your health. Uh, but, you know, [00:12:55] so our friends, they’re going they get you know, they’ll get go to their GP and get a sleeping pill or whatever [00:13:00] and just numb presents or something.

Speaker3: Yeah.

Speaker1: And just numb. No, there is a time for it. I do agree, but [00:13:05] it shouldn’t discount the idea that there are other alternative things that we can do. And actually, interestingly [00:13:10] enough, most of which is ancestrally LED, it’s there’s so much if you look at the arc of history, [00:13:15] there’s so much you can learn from how his historically, [00:13:20] how tribes and communities would adapt to stress. [00:13:25] Um, and, you know, so we would see a lot of friends going through it. And actually we feel like [00:13:30] we’re getting into that situation where we’re feeling a bit uneasy because, you know, when you’re building businesses or building ideas, [00:13:35] time becomes an enemy. Sleep becomes secondary. [00:13:40] Because I don’t think when we’re brought up, we’re brought up to understand how powerful that tool of sleep is and how that [00:13:45] will significantly impact your day for the greater and good or the complete opposite. [00:13:50] And if it is the complete opposite and you don’t know it’s about sleep, then I think you become your own worst enemy. [00:13:55] And if you become your worst enemy, you become, um, a bit paranoid. Yeah, fearful. [00:14:00] And which is why maybe a lot of these kind of, um, um, [00:14:05] pharmaceutical kind of approaches seems like the suitable approach. And also when you go and see your [00:14:10] GP and there’s some fantastic family doctors and GP, but just just from his [00:14:15] history and case studies is that, you know, the two things they don’t have is time and, you know, [00:14:20] resources beyond the bandwidth of what they know. So anything that’s [00:14:25] alternative is not really in on their radar.

Speaker3: It’s funny because as you say [00:14:30] that, as, you know, within the medical system and something for me that I’ve spoken about [00:14:35] quite a lot recently is medical gaslighting. So with medical gaslighting, [00:14:40] we spoke about this recently Payman and I as well is when someone comes in [00:14:45] and they present you with a set of symptoms, and because you can’t physically see the symptoms and the way that [00:14:50] you’re taught as a doctor or dentist, i.e it’s not on an x ray, it’s not on a blood test, it’s not on something [00:14:55] else. You tend to discount it and the symptoms that the patient’s feeling. And now [00:15:00] that we’re understanding that it’s so multifactorial, why people feel the way they do. So things like [00:15:05] sleep, nutrition etc. has such an impact on your overall health. And [00:15:10] we’re not actually taught that, by the way, you know, as undergraduates. And it’s just so, so important. [00:15:15] I think there’s a lot of awareness coming up now and recognising that all the woo woo stuff [00:15:20] is really important. You know, your overall mental health. Yeah.

Speaker1: Listen, we will um, [00:15:25] it’s something that’s becoming cooler and absolutely fundamentally important. I think there’s more studies [00:15:30] and research to support that as well. Um, I. Just saw a study this morning that, [00:15:35] um, I think it was 13,000 subjects on the basis of first light [00:15:40] is ten times brighter and more important than just getting your [00:15:45] light on in here, and that’s an amazing kick for your cortisol levels if you get it. [00:15:50] Um, otherwise it can affect your mood and your levels during the day. Um, but yes, you’re right. [00:15:55] So most, most people are diagnosed on symptoms rather than the cause.

Speaker3: So tell me as well, you said [00:16:00] that people around you were suffering with their mental health. Were you guys suffering?

Speaker1: Um, [00:16:05] slightly. I wouldn’t say because I’m comparing myself to [00:16:10] to friends and those who are going through it. Um, you see, in some [00:16:15] capacity, there were symptoms we were getting because of talking about sleep and talking about [00:16:20] not falling into the routine and how important it is to kind of be physically active and mentally active. [00:16:25] Um, so and also me being older and my brother and seeing sorry and seeing him [00:16:30] potentially going through some of those symptoms and myself going through some of those symptoms, I felt like [00:16:35] I was a success and failure on behalf of my brother, because I didn’t really have the answers. Um, [00:16:40] and I was speaking to a philosopher the other day and he said, you know, Simon, most of the time [00:16:45] the answers is if you walk into the forest and I said, sorry, and, uh, here [00:16:50] we go. Woo woo! Yeah. Um, because, you know, scientifically, just walking into a forest, it calms the nervous system down. [00:16:55] You know, everything.

Speaker4: Japanese, they call it bathing in the forest. Bathing?

Speaker1: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. [00:17:00] So, um, and I think I’m saying that because that’s free, you know, [00:17:05] um, if you live within a park, go to a park if you’re feeling slightly stressed. Um, nature. [00:17:10] Nature, nature is one of our. Yeah, but.

Speaker3: How did you come across the mushrooms then? What was the first time you’re like, [00:17:15] oh, this is interesting.

Speaker1: So we would look at I was very intrigued by ancestral [00:17:20] ways of living. You know, how, um, some of these tribes could adapt [00:17:25] to stress when they’re always in a state of fight or flight? You know, in the sense that, you know, when you walk into this room or you [00:17:30] walk into your home, this gets to the mushrooms parts, by the way, when you walk in, you play. God [00:17:35] forgive me for using such a grandiose terms, but you play God because you get to dictate temperature, security, safety, [00:17:40] light, everything. And but back then they didn’t have anything like that. So, um, [00:17:45] they’re walking into the forest. They were defined as like walking into their own pharmacy. They would find these adaptogens. They [00:17:50] would find these plants, herbs and mushrooms. And I became fascinated by that and [00:17:55] sharing these kind of findings with my brother. And the more and more you go into, you look at these things, the more you go into a rabbit [00:18:00] hole. And, um, a friend of mine once told me that there was a mushroom tea master [00:18:05] in London, um, all in tandem with me looking into these fascinating kind of, um, [00:18:10] insights into nature and how preventative they can be. So we met with [00:18:15] her. Obviously, there is this misconception. You know, my brother thought I was, you know, well, I kind of thought as well that potentially [00:18:20] this could be the ceremony that you go and see rainbows and unicorns. Um, [00:18:25] but, um, but it wasn’t it was a fascinating experience. We walk [00:18:30] into a room and very aethereal lady, um, the smell of Palo Santos, you know, [00:18:35] all it down, lighting, sat down like everything is like you’ve just. You’ve just stepped away from the concrete [00:18:40] jungle. You’ve stepped into sacred, safe, uh, surroundings. So, um, [00:18:45] in.

Speaker4: Finsbury Park or something close?

Speaker1: Um, [00:18:50] it was west, but it was. Yeah, very, very kind of [00:18:55] similar. And, um, so she’d sit with us. And what was interesting is, like [00:19:00] each one of these mushrooms she presented was stunning. It was like. It was like like nature’s art. [00:19:05] And the one thing you kind of understand is like, wow, we [00:19:10] we miss all this. And there is something I should share in a minute. But, um, so [00:19:15] each one of these mushrooms, she would talk about the history of them, she’d talk about how [00:19:20] they were used ancestrally and then how their functional foods, because beyond their nutritional [00:19:25] composition, if the mushroom is extracted correctly, from what you see [00:19:30] to a powder, there are compounds in there that can improve the full kind of, [00:19:35] um, uh, embodiment of your wellbeing. And that’s from nature. [00:19:40] And nothing’s been shifted. It’s purely the mushroom. So we sat with her, we and it kind of developed [00:19:45] this idea of conscious drinking, which I don’t think we do in any capacity. So by [00:19:50] drinking it with her and understanding about the history and the benefits there and the science, [00:19:55] and you start drinking, you start to feel a bit, you know, there’s a feeling you get, um, that’s undeniable. [00:20:00] Placebo or not, it’s fine. Yeah. Uh, so that whole process was a couple [00:20:05] of hours, and my brother and I felt fantastic. Um, we took some of her powders to, uh, [00:20:10] she was happy with that. And, um, you know, after a couple of weeks of, like, adopting these into our lifestyle, [00:20:15] we realised our sleep was more important. Our focus was more on point. Our energy levels [00:20:20] were more on point. Could this be the mushrooms? And then it [00:20:25] it beckons this idea. Well, there’s more to learn. And so I [00:20:30] took a deep dive and I became this kind of, um, amateur. My. Cottages and my cottages is a [00:20:35] biologist who studies mushrooms.

Speaker3: Alternative career path. Just thinking. [00:20:40] Yes.

Speaker1: It’s healthy. I mean, you’re in the forest like 90% of the time anyway. And, [00:20:45] uh, the interesting thing is why my college is important and and why this part was important is to understand [00:20:50] that this kingdom, the fungi kingdom, is so vast.

Speaker3: It’s incredible. It’s incredible. [00:20:55] Did you see, um, was it called The Mighty Fungi or something on Netflix? There was this amazing [00:21:00] documentary.

Speaker1: Yeah. Fantastic fungi.

Speaker3: Fantastic fungi, I watched it. Did you ever watch it? No. [00:21:05] During, um, I heard.

Speaker4: I heard an interview on. You must have Joe Rogan about mushrooms. [00:21:10]

Speaker3: Was it Michael Pollan or something? Or maybe Michael.

Speaker1: Pollan or Paul Stamets or. Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:21:15] he’s.

Speaker3: Yeah. They’re amazing. So basically, because you asked me, I’m doing a little bit of like, reversal. [00:21:20] Um, Simon and I met because I had a little bit of a calling towards [00:21:25] mushrooms. I’d seen, like, loads about it. No, honestly. Honestly, like, I had a calling where I was like, oh, wow. [00:21:30] Like, it’s such a fascinating. My sister had always been obsessed with it and I was like, it’s such a fascinating [00:21:35] and beautiful thing. And then like when I looked into it, I was like, they are actually more powerful [00:21:40] than human beings, you know? They’ve outlived us. They’re going to continue to outlive us. They have [00:21:45] the capacity to do more than what we do. They’re so important. You know, there are even fungi out there that [00:21:50] literally eat plastic, you know, imagine if we implemented that with the plastic problem, incredible things that they [00:21:55] do. And there was so much like beauty and healing capacity when it came to mushrooms. I [00:22:00] was particularly interested in the mental health benefits. So as I told you, I’d gone through this like journey of having [00:22:05] like bouts of really bad mental health. A friend of mine had introduced me to Simon. I heard [00:22:10] of dirty. I went and had a, you know, one on one with Simon. I’ll never forget it for like a couple of hours at [00:22:15] White City.

Speaker3: And he was like, I’m going to put you, like on a good path. Introduce me to some people. [00:22:20] We went on a retreat together. That’s how I met Louis. Um, and for me, there was something [00:22:25] so beautiful because I’m going to sound cheesy. There was a there was a certain type [00:22:30] of community that are interested in mushrooms, the healing capacity [00:22:35] of mushrooms, and just that whole thing and that community made me feel really safe. And [00:22:40] safety is such an important part for my mental health. And you recognise that people like [00:22:45] Drop the Ego and the Superficialities and things like that, and with the mushrooms [00:22:50] as well, we were doing things like movement classes, breathwork. We know [00:22:55] an amazing breathwork coach as well. Um, and you know, those are all ways to like heal your [00:23:00] body instead of like numbing it, as we said, you know, and you can get to that elated state, like even with [00:23:05] the breathwork, you know, they do the ceremony with the dirty and the cacao, the breathwork can [00:23:10] literally make you feel on that, like altered state, like because it alters your breathing, your oxygen levels. So [00:23:15] for me, it was like a really powerful inlet into how to improve your life without having [00:23:20] to medicate. So yeah, so that’s why I really got into it.

Speaker4: I’m interested in this. I [00:23:25] mean, you could have been, uh, like a hippie who sort [00:23:30] of went on this ceremony, carried on with the rest of your life. Um, but, you know, [00:23:35] you you start the business. Yeah. And, you know, looking, hearing your story, [00:23:40] the there is this sort of impact that you want to have [00:23:45] every time you do something. Yeah. And, you know, I’m thinking back to what you said. If [00:23:50] I was a 24 year old or whatever you were, and I heard this story about this, this unfortunate [00:23:55] cancer story. Sure. I might have hugged the mother. I [00:24:00] might have told a few friends, but the idea that I’m going to start a campaign, [00:24:05] yeah, that’s one step. And then to say, what are we going to do for this campaign? I’m going [00:24:10] to go to LA where the movie people are, and if I got to LA, I wouldn’t [00:24:15] know where to start. Yeah. So tell me this. Well, going back one [00:24:20] step further to your childhood, um, what was it about your upbringing that [00:24:25] makes you want to have an impact?

Speaker1: Um, no [00:24:30] curveball there at all. Okay, so that’s a wonderful it’s such a wonderful [00:24:35] question because I love my my parents so much that, um, [00:24:40] and they’re very I’d say my father is very conventional. My mum is probably [00:24:45] more unconventional. She grew up as a PR, um, superstar on Fleet [00:24:50] Street and then built a model agency. And, uh, was always pushing the idea [00:24:55] of doing things independently. She, um, and my [00:25:00] father, when we had this idea, uh, never shelved it, never [00:25:05] told us. Shelve it. That’s what we passionately believed in. Uh, then then go for it. There were some challenges in the very beginning [00:25:10] because, uh, different generation. So, um, but they’re very calm [00:25:15] and wonderful human beings. Um, and it was it was [00:25:20] a wonderful upbringing because they were kind, uh, they weren’t unconventional, very tamed. [00:25:25] Uh, family of, um, brought up in, you know, north London, in Edgware or Edgware. Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:30] Um, so, yeah, they. It. It was just [00:25:35] something, I think also because my father was in property as an estate agent and very conventional [00:25:40] and traditional and never extended out that I think for my brother and I, our frustration [00:25:45] was, there’s so much more you can do. Yeah. Uh, and then, you know, as technology changes and, and, [00:25:50] uh, the excitement of property and, you know, it brought all these other guys in. It was my father was like [00:25:55] the number one in, in Edgware. Uh, there were about 18, 20. And he just got swallowed up [00:26:00] and or so our frustration is to is to change the game and we see something, uh, that we passionately [00:26:05] believe in. It’s our, our impulse is to is just to go for it. [00:26:10] And, um, and maybe that was a slight kind of, uh, springboard for the reasons [00:26:15] why. But, uh, you know, Mum and dad have always been very supportive, and I think in some [00:26:20] capacity, we always wanted to create something that we could give back to them. That was another thing. [00:26:25]

Speaker3: I think that’s so important. I think, you know, when you’ve got that close relationship with your parents, you almost feel [00:26:30] like you want to do something. I mean, I certainly have that with my dad. You’ve met him.

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah, but.

Speaker4: You make it sound so [00:26:35] effortless. Um, is that just the way you come across, or.

Speaker3: Yes, it’s [00:26:40] the way Simon comes across.

Speaker1: Yeah. Because.

Speaker4: Have you had some failures along the way, surely?

Speaker1: Yes, [00:26:45] it was a very quick answer. Yeah. There’s, there’s, there’s been failures and and even today there are, you [00:26:50] know.

Speaker4: Failures.

Speaker1: Yes. Yeah. But there’s this concept of failing forward in a sense that to get up, brush [00:26:55] the sand off and keep going forward, there’s no fairy tale to every thing that we’ve [00:27:00] ever done. I guess I’m giving you the top line, but you can definitely give me the Spanish Inquisition [00:27:05] and I can crack open, uh, some challenges. But the interesting thing is, is, is I would say one of the [00:27:10] greatest strengths I’ve had is my brother. And I hope it’s the other way around as well. Because to do anything [00:27:15] on your own, to do anything individually, you’re consistently in this, uh fisticuff with [00:27:20] your ego or you’re always putting pressure on yourself. And when things don’t go right, who [00:27:25] do you who do you go to? Who can you entrust in and actually to build something with someone you love? [00:27:30] Yeah, well, that’s another rarity there. Uh, so it’s a testament to our [00:27:35] bond, um, to everything that we have done. But there’s definitely been challenges. And [00:27:40] we’ve even every morning, even this morning, I’m going through I’m being challenged about, you know, [00:27:45] dirty, you know, because every day you’re challenged. I don’t know if you agree, but you’re challenged about your business, what you’re doing, where you’re [00:27:50] going 100%. Uh, so, um, and.

Speaker4: Are you are you opposites, you and your brother, as far [00:27:55] as, um, your skill sets?

Speaker3: Yes, I think I think so as well. But, you know, it’s so funny [00:28:00] because, Simon, I’m going to say you kind of remind me of me as well, because obviously, [00:28:05] as you know, like with parlour, like, I feel like you’re definitely more of the sort of like you’re definitely very creative. [00:28:10] You’re more like of the visionary, sort of like ideas type person. [00:28:15] I’m just assuming, by the way. But like, our logistics are something I just said to Payman before you arrived. [00:28:20] Like, I hate logistics, as in like the kind of like the operational side. I hate [00:28:25] it with a passion. Like literally hate it because also my brain doesn’t really sort of function [00:28:30] in that way. Like I find it’s such an immense challenge to think about things operationally, [00:28:35] whereas like, I love having ideas, etc..

Speaker1: There’s a mushroom for that. Sorry.

Speaker3: Yeah. [00:28:40] And um, but.

Speaker4: Partnership is such a funny thing. You haven’t got a partner in, in business [00:28:45] in your Dental business in Chelsea.

Speaker3: Yeah, it’s funny because.

Speaker4: But, but but with [00:28:50] me and Sanj, for instance, I see him as a brother. I mean, we, we, you know, we were in university [00:28:55] together since we were 18 years old and yeah, we’re opposites in that. He’s very good at the [00:29:00] stuff you’re talking about. He’s very good at computers. He’s very good at systems. He’s he [00:29:05] loves that sort of thing. And but you do have to align on [00:29:10] basic principles 100%. And I think the one other thing, and, you know, we’ve been [00:29:15] in business for 22 years or something. The other thing you really have to align with your partners on [00:29:20] is risk profile. If you’ve got risk profile. And [00:29:25] that’s along over the years, that’s been a big issue. Right. What are we willing to risk [00:29:30] to do whatever. I mean, I’m sure you guys have all sorts of plans, right? I’m sure you want to put it in [00:29:35] soft drinks or whatever it is.

Speaker1: Oh my God, are you in our meetings? You’re [00:29:40] right. There’s, um. I think one thing from what you’re saying is that, [00:29:45] um, it’s quite hard to own up to your weakness sometimes and show vulnerability because [00:29:50] you don’t want to be.

Speaker3: I love it, I show it all the time. I show it all the time. My vulnerability is.

Speaker4: Vulnerability. [00:29:55] Oh, 100%. You go into Parliament meetings and say, look, I can’t be bothered with [00:30:00] that.

Speaker3: Am I going to get it? No, no, I, I think, I think I think there’s like there’s a challenge, [00:30:05] um, with that because with a start up sometimes [00:30:10] and I don’t know if it’s the same for you or if it was the same for you. They’re like, okay, we get that you don’t get it [00:30:15] or that you find it hard, but just learn it. This is a start up and we can’t afford to have [00:30:20] other hire someone. So the only person that’s going to do it is you. So you’ve kind of just got to like, suck it [00:30:25] up and do it. And I think that there’s a real challenge in that because I love to work [00:30:30] to people’s strengths, not their weaknesses. Is right. So my I’m having to [00:30:35] work on my weaknesses and I’m not excelling in the things that I want to, but that is the reality of [00:30:40] a Start-Up, I think. And that’s really difficult because also within the dental clinic, I have [00:30:45] an absolutely bomb operations manager, like, you know, a refurbing the whole clinic, [00:30:50] you will come on the refurbs done. We’re gutting the whole thing. Literally. [00:30:55] I’ve had to just sign bits of paper she’s had like topless. She’s done all the meetings, like everything like that. [00:31:00]

Speaker4: Because. Because the dental clinic can afford her.

Speaker3: Yeah, correct. That’s exactly what I was about to say.

Speaker4: But [00:31:05] with brothers, you instinctively know each other’s strengths and weaknesses, so it doesn’t have to be [00:31:10] explained, you know? And with me and Sanj, it’s a bit like that. He does more than I do, simply [00:31:15] because it’s absolutely clear those things shouldn’t. I shouldn’t trust me with those things, [00:31:20] you know. Yeah, I.

Speaker1: Agree, I think if you if you look to our team, it’s a testament to the vision [00:31:25] the team we have are extraordinary. Not all of them are seniors, but they some of the players senior role [00:31:30] and they absolutely they’re amazing. They are. They smash out the park. And I say it’s a testament [00:31:35] to the vision because, uh, it’s not just a business of building. There is a movement [00:31:40] certainly in mushrooms, and I feel we’re at the forefront of it. So [00:31:45] when we spoke about content before, when we spoke about we were speaking about logistics and, [00:31:50] you know, supply chains and, you know, going internationally and cogs, cogs, cogs. Yes. [00:31:55] Uh, we’re all in it. We’re, you know, this is something that we’re all invested in, into. And [00:32:00] I think, you know, to, you know, I should say categorically, these are functional mushrooms. I know we spoke [00:32:05] before, but these are functional.

Speaker3: That’s what I want to I want to get into. I think it’s really important. Can you please tell us what [00:32:10] are the ingredients and dirty and the benefits? I’m obsessed. I have like five a day, by the way. I [00:32:15] think it’s a bit too much, but.

Speaker1: No no no no no. Listen, a healthy addiction. Yeah. There’s nothing. There’s [00:32:20] never too much, um, with mushrooms. Um, if I can say these are functional [00:32:25] mushrooms, so they have a nutritional value. But beyond that composition, they have a compound [00:32:30] in each one of them which impacts the body in such remarkable ways. And [00:32:35] when you see it from our customers, when you see it personally, it’s undeniable. [00:32:40] And then you can even, you know, look back at, um, look back at the history of mushrooms. [00:32:45] And there’s, there’s a history. I think it’s so important because you become even more undeniably connected.

Speaker3: Well, tell us a [00:32:50] little bit about the mushrooms you’ve integrated into dirty.

Speaker1: So we have I should have brought the mushrooms in, [00:32:55] but, um, you have lion’s mane. B-roll.

Speaker3: Yeah, I love it. [00:33:00]

Speaker1: You have lion’s mane. Uh, it’s called. Yeah, it’s called lion’s mane. Because when you go into the forest, [00:33:05] it’s a mane of a lion. It’s all about focus. That mushroom, it’s all about, um. [00:33:10] It’s great for two brains. Your first. Your first brain here and your second brain, your gut. [00:33:15] Uh, and they both are entwined with each other. I think that’s why people feel so good with it. It’s got [00:33:20] an amazing, uh, note, this taste. It’s like caramel. Some say misu, some say dark chocolate. [00:33:25] Okay, fine.

Speaker3: Whatever floats your boat, you know.

Speaker1: Because the first thing and one thing about mushrooms, they’re [00:33:30] always thinking about, it’s like a yucky kind of expression. But this is [00:33:35] a phenomenal. I start with this one because this is the one I start in the morning with. Because when I wake up in the morning, I [00:33:40] want to make sure that I’ve got a clear mind, a clear head, and for some reason, it feels like it’s something’s [00:33:45] left. It feels good, I love it. And, um, they’re, um, some of the history and [00:33:50] some of the research that supports that makes me even more excited by it and more excited when we get the reaction from [00:33:55] our customers. It’s probably one, the number one, number one, one of the top leading mushrooms. Yeah. You [00:34:00] then have chaga, uh, chaga mushrooms is is found usually in the Siberian [00:34:05] forest. It grows on birch trees and, uh, it grows in very extreme [00:34:10] weather conditions. And that is representation of this mushroom. This is like the immune boosting kind of mushroom. [00:34:15] It’s got the highest source of antioxidants known to anything else that Mother Nature has to offer. Um, [00:34:20] and it’s a way of like almost wearing a, um, like an S on your chest. [00:34:25]

Speaker1: So going through seasonal changes and you feel your immune systems being compromised, this is a great one to have. And actually, in [00:34:30] the morning, your immune system can be compromised. So it’s a really lovely kind of mushroom to [00:34:35] have. Uh, you then have cordyceps, known as the energy mushroom or the [00:34:40] performance mushroom. Uh, this mushroom has been used for thousands of years, found in the Himalayas. [00:34:45] And this one is incredibly good for those who have energy fatigue. [00:34:50] So it’s been shown like it can increase your energy levels. You know, our ATP, which is almost [00:34:55] a library molecules wraps around your cell that can deplete, um, off. You know, I think it’s after like 2025. [00:35:00] So this could be the precursor for that. And it tastes nice. It’s again, it’s [00:35:05] got a very nutty kind of profile. And anything I’m saying, by the way, at the moment, you can add these into anything you like shakes, [00:35:10] coffees, teas, you name it, cereal, salads. Um, and then you have, uh, tremella [00:35:15] the beauty mushroom.

Speaker3: Yeah. I was going to say it’s so cute. Yeah.

Speaker1: Um, [00:35:20] and that for many, they people call it the precursor for the hyaluronic acid. [00:35:25] It’s got, um, a molecule on it that can hold up to 1000 times its weight [00:35:30] in water so it can penetrate the skin, the skin, not skin, the skin. And quicker, so it could be great for [00:35:35] volume of skin elasticity. There’s a wonderful, um, story of this, uh, [00:35:40] Chinese, uh, beauty. She’s one of the four beauties of Chinese history called Young Guelfi, who [00:35:45] attested Tremella for her beauty. So it’s just nice to romantic to kind of look at what they were saying [00:35:50] back then. You then have, um, Ricci, which is, uh, also [00:35:55] known as the Mushroom of Longevity. It’s been used for thousands of years. It’s probably one of the it’s [00:36:00] probably the most researched mushroom in the world. And people drink it and they feel calm. People drink it and they [00:36:05] have better sleep. And there’s some amazing studies out there that needs to be way more studies. And that’s probably that’s [00:36:10] probably the great problem we have with functional mushrooms. And for mycology as a whole, is there’s probably [00:36:15] over 50,000 mycologists and a high percentage of them are underfunded because it’s only recently [00:36:20] become a bit sexier this industry. If you have.

Speaker4: A product that has all of them.

Speaker1: Yeah yeah [00:36:25] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker4: Because I’ve got, I’ve got the lion’s mane and reishi.

Speaker3: I’ve got the coffee though, and the coffee’s got [00:36:30] loads of them in it as well.

Speaker1: You’ve got chaga in there, you’ve got lion’s mane, cordyceps and actually is [00:36:35] 80% less caffeine with every teaspoon. So what.

Speaker3: That’s why I can have lots of it. That’s why. Because it doesn’t it doesn’t affect [00:36:40] my sleep, the dirty. But it’s still it keeps me sort of feeling awake. You know, you get that hit. [00:36:45] Uh, Simon, but can you tell us a little bit, um, as well, about the difference between psychedelic mushrooms? [00:36:50] Um, you’ve already explained the functional ones. So the psychedelic ones and also, [00:36:55] um, if there any research behind the benefits of psychedelic mushrooms, [00:37:00] particularly with regards to mental health? Uh, we recognise it’s not currently legal. I’m reading a [00:37:05] lot of research now, as we, um, previously mentioned, um, Michael Pollan, Paul [00:37:10] Stamets, you know, there’s a lot of and unfortunately, uh, you know, back [00:37:15] in the day, in the sort of 70s and 80s mushrooms were making massive headway within [00:37:20] the medical world. Uh, they were using, you know, even other sort of, [00:37:25] um, medicines like MDMA to help treat, you know, post-traumatic stress and [00:37:30] mushrooms for depression, etc.. And then, as we know, it was a political decision, [00:37:35] the war on drugs. Right, because we had who was the president at the time, Richard Nixon. That’s [00:37:40] it. Nixon came along and he said, Reagan.

Speaker4: And Nancy.

Speaker3: Reagan. But but the thing is Knicks, Knicks, Knicks, [00:37:45] Knicks. No. But the Knicks. And this is the thing they wanted the Vietnam War. And, you know, from what I understand, [00:37:50] with psychedelic mushrooms, they make you very in touch with nature, with human beings. And the [00:37:55] your instinct isn’t to go out and kill people. So people are like, no, no, no, like love and peace, you know? [00:38:00] And so he wanted to he wanted people to go fight the Vietnam War. So there was just, you know, this [00:38:05] kind of like conflict. So I’m really interested in this from like a medical point of view. So tell us a little bit about psychedelic mushrooms. [00:38:10]

Speaker1: So I would say just a dovetail before I say it. There’s, there’s um, a wonderful guy by the name of [00:38:15] Robin Corey Harris that I would suggest anyone looks him up. He’s, um, he’s a researcher here [00:38:20] in the UK and his research is phenomenal. He works alongside another chap by the name of David [00:38:25] Nutt. And there’s another guy called Matthew Johnson who’s a clinical psychologist. Uh, in [00:38:30] America, I think he’s one of the first researchers to be handed $5 million by the FDA [00:38:35] to kind of do research into how psychedelics could suppress the addiction with nicotine. [00:38:40] Uh, so anything I speak to is in breadth of these kind of great researchers [00:38:45] and what they’re doing. Um, where would you like me to go with this? Because there’s so many. I mean, the history [00:38:50] is very important because I feel the government was trying to control something they couldn’t control. [00:38:55] I think had some, um, great leaders and pioneers, from the Timothy Leary to the Ram Dass [00:39:00] and Robert.

Speaker3: Well, tell us a little bit about so from, from a medical perspective, what are [00:39:05] the, um, psychoactive elements of mushrooms that can help the human brain? [00:39:10]

Speaker1: So that’s psylocybin. And actually, maybe as an analogy, if you were to do a B roll here, there’s a wonderful [00:39:15] image of a brain on an fMRI scan. Uh, [00:39:20] not with, uh, psychedelics. The classic psychedelics being psilocybin. And with psilocybin, [00:39:25] one is dim and the other one’s like a disco. Yeah. Every [00:39:30] part of the hemisphere is is connecting in some extraordinary ways. And, [00:39:35] um, so psilocybin almost. I don’t want to, like, [00:39:40] own the kind of medical side to this, but it almost kind of amplifies your serotonin receptor. [00:39:45] Yeah. And, um, and fits perfectly into that pathway when it digests into [00:39:50] liver and it goes into the brain, breaks the brain, brain blood barrier. Um, and then you have the prefrontal [00:39:55] cortex, the overacting part of the mind, the Woody Allen of the mind, that part which becomes your enemy [00:40:00] sometimes you go parts starts to close down when you, when you, when when you take it. So I [00:40:05] think the reason why people are so fascinated by it in the mental health is because if you go with intention [00:40:10] set and setting and you with the right kind of, um.

Speaker3: Community.

Speaker1: Community [00:40:15] sitter, uh, a therapist, um, there are journeys have been shown that, [00:40:20] you know, one session of this experience is equivalent of like ten years of therapy. The [00:40:25] most important thing, and I think Michael Pollan talks about this incredibly well, is that you can have this [00:40:30] experience and you can get to the summit and. And you can see the horizon. But the reality [00:40:35] is when you come, come down from come off. This experience is that the integration [00:40:40] then commences. You have to climb that gain and there may not be a rope. So there [00:40:45] is a challenge there. Um, but if you look at, uh, there’s a certain chart, [00:40:50] that chart that was uh, I think it was called, but it was created by David Nutt and [00:40:55] it shows you, um, it’s called the Ld50. Like talking about the if [00:41:00] something how bad something is and right, a toxicity toxicity. [00:41:05] Yes. So if you’ve got something like nicotine and you’ve got coffee, sorry, nicotine coffee, cocaine all these other. [00:41:10] Right a bottom right a bottom, you can’t even see it. Maybe you need a microscope to see this part [00:41:15] you have set aside and MDMA and other kind of, um, psychedelics. Well that’s psychedelics. [00:41:20] So classic psychedelics. And I think [00:41:25] all I would suggest is I would definitely, um, say to people, if [00:41:30] they have any interest in there, look at the type of people I’ve spoken about. Um, [00:41:35] there are some extraordinary podcasts, because you have the Freedom of expression of podcast where [00:41:40] you get some great. I’m trying to think of another on top of my head.

Speaker3: But there was one as well, because the one, the person that really interested [00:41:45] me. So, as you know, I’m teetotal, so I’ve never drank, never taken drugs, never tried anything [00:41:50] clean and pure. Um, and there was somebody and I forgot his name because [00:41:55] I got really obsessed with him. Christian Anglemyer. Yes. So he was on Stephen Bartlett’s [00:42:00] podcast, and he really resonated with me because he was also talking about how he was completely teetotal [00:42:05] and had no interest. He didn’t even, like, ever have a beer or anything like that and grew up in Germany. [00:42:10] And he also was, you know, on a trip with some friends, had a [00:42:15] calling with mushrooms and said it was the most profound experience of his entire life. And now he’s [00:42:20] one of the most successful sort of tech entrepreneurs. That’s put a lot of money behind [00:42:25] mental health and psilocybin and how it can help. So I think it’s like an incredible [00:42:30] progression. And as I said, this is something that grows in our world. What is also interesting, [00:42:35] controversial because I like to be is I wonder, you know, I wonder sometimes about [00:42:40] pharma, right? Because pharma want people to be addicted to medication. Like I’m going to [00:42:45] just say it out there. They want us to be reliant and dependent. And you know, we were talking about things like [00:42:50] antidepressants and anti, um, anxiety medication because it’s [00:42:55] their benefit if people have to take these constantly. Whereas something like psilocybin, from what I’ve [00:43:00] read, you don’t, you can’t take it like constantly because you just won’t.

Speaker4: The thing [00:43:05] with pharma is that it’s not a complicated conspiracy. It’s a very simple conspiracy. [00:43:10] It’s like they want to make money. Yeah. And, and, and so their ideal [00:43:15] drug is one that you have to take for the rest of your life and that the whole population needs [00:43:20] to take. And if they could, they could find a way of getting psilocybin into FDA [00:43:25] and all that. They do that it’s not like the conspiracy, but I’m not sure because.

Speaker3: People but people, [00:43:30] but people, people can’t be dependent on it. Think about it. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker4: What I’m saying is, don’t worry, they’re [00:43:35] very clever. They’ll put a little side chain on it and you know what I mean? Like what? My point is [00:43:40] this. That it’s very nice and easy to say, oh, that’s a conspiracy. And they weren’t trying to keep these, these mushrooms [00:43:45] away from us and all. But if they could find a way of making loads of money on that, they’d make loads of money [00:43:50] on that too. Yeah. That’s way you know, it’s a business. It’s a farmer business. It’s one of those things. [00:43:55] Do you think.

Speaker3: It’s going to be legalised anytime soon?

Speaker1: Um, and.

Speaker3: Has it been legalised anywhere in.

Speaker1: America? [00:44:00] There’s probably about eight states, um, that have decriminalised. Now the question really is how do [00:44:05] you unpackage what decriminalisation means and, and how it’s served and served, how it’s [00:44:10] how it’s handed and what the punishment is if someone’s seen with it. But [00:44:15] there’s great pioneers and leaders in certainly in Colorado and [00:44:20] some, some other states. I think Portugal swells following suit. Um, there needs [00:44:25] to be certainly more research. It’s not really my wheelhouse. I only know more about the functional side [00:44:30] and also the the vast area of the fungi kingdom. And like you were saying, what, uh, fungi [00:44:35] is doing for the future health of our planet as much as our well-being, which is also fascinating. [00:44:40] Probably another podcast. Um, but I think it takes time. But the interesting [00:44:45] thing is that the government and UK government are starting to fund projects.

Speaker3: So ketamine is now being [00:44:50] is available on the NHS. I don’t know if you knew that for depression. So you can go to [00:44:55] um your GP if you’ve got symptoms you can have the intravenously um providing [00:45:00] ketamine. So I think it’s an interesting space. You know, as I said, because we’re understanding that [00:45:05] like integrative medicine. But as you said, it’s about integration. So people can’t use [00:45:10] these medicines as like a one off and be like, all my problems will be cured.

Speaker4: I’m kind of interested in what you’re [00:45:15] saying, though. But, you know, you’re all up for having these, uh, functional mushrooms, [00:45:20] but you’re not up for having a beer. Why? Like, as far as I’m concerned, [00:45:25] you know, because these are ways of managing your state.

Speaker3: Yeah. No, because I actually don’t like alcohol. [00:45:30] I’m going to be completely honest with you, I. Don’t have any judgement. My parents drink, my sister drinks [00:45:35] because the first reaction is like, oh, is it religion? I’m like, well, no, because I’m, you know, I’m Christian, [00:45:40] so there’s nothing to say that I shouldn’t drink number two. Um, I also, um, [00:45:45] have never liked it. I’ve never liked the taste of it. And I really didn’t enjoy the altered [00:45:50] state of people who drank around me. And the thing is, remember, because I was really, [00:45:55] like, always sober. And I loved to go out. As you both know, I love to party. I love to dance. I love to [00:46:00] enjoy. Which again, I think there’s medicine and just movement. I don’t know why people think you have to kind of [00:46:05] be intoxicated. Like I love that, but I notice people around me become a little [00:46:10] bit more aggressive, a little bit more annoying, you know what I mean?

Speaker4: But but you’re saying you’re [00:46:15] teetotal. You don’t take any drugs. Yeah. It’s almost like you’ve set a set a line there. Yes. Yeah. And [00:46:20] yet if, if I put you in front of a, some, some, you know, lady, [00:46:25] lady witch doctor type and she brews something up for you 100%. I’m there. [00:46:30] You’ll have it.

Speaker3: Yeah.

Speaker4: And it’s almost it’s almost arbitrary.

Speaker3: I don’t think [00:46:35] so, because I think that I see also lots of other substances [00:46:40] as a numbing, as something to numb. Whereas I think that this [00:46:45] is a medicine and I think it’s a medicine that and you might say like, oh, what [00:46:50] about antidepressants? They numb as well, I agree. But the thing is, there’s something about nature that [00:46:55] I feel so connected to, and I feel so connected to something that’s like grown out [00:47:00] of the ground. You know, I’ve always been somebody that really cares about, like the nutrition that I’m putting in my body. [00:47:05]

Speaker4: Um, marijuana grows out of the ground.

Speaker3: True. But again, I think that from the research [00:47:10] that I’ve read and again, I have seen people in universities smoke marijuana, [00:47:15] become stoners, and have also I’ve seen altered states, whereas I’ve [00:47:20] yet to meet one person that I’ve been that I know has done mushrooms for [00:47:25] medicinal reasons. And I’m like, well, that’s probably messed them up a bit, you know? So I think for [00:47:30] me and it’s different, as I said, the community of people that I’ve met that, you know, [00:47:35] take functional mushrooms or have done psychedelics, it’s much.

Speaker4: More wholesome, it’s. [00:47:40]

Speaker3: Much more wholesome and much more connected. And I think that really speaks volumes to me, [00:47:45] because one of the things that’s helped my mental health is community connection and safety. [00:47:50] And that’s what I’ve always felt around those people. And I think Simon may agree with me [00:47:55] that as you started this pursuit with dirty, your whole kind [00:48:00] of world changed in a way because you started also. Here’s cold water dipping, [00:48:05] right? So he got into that, which you can tell us about. And, you know, that involves going to the serpentine, [00:48:10] freezing cold water. I’m not there yet, by the way. Yeah. Um, yeah. So and [00:48:15] guess what? It was so interesting because he created this community called the Dirty Tribe, [00:48:20] and it turned up being like two people doing cold water dipping, then five, then ten. Do [00:48:25] you see what I mean? And it’s amazing.

Speaker4: Interesting how this dirty is much [00:48:30] more than a product. Right? It’s a it’s a whole movement.

Speaker5: It’s a movement.

Speaker1: It’s beyond it’s beyond the sipping experience. [00:48:35]

Speaker4: I mean, the success of the company has been meteoric, right? How many how many people are you now.

Speaker1: In [00:48:40] the business? Uh, 20, I think. Was that all? Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker5: But that’s [00:48:45] how much.

Speaker3: They’ve achieved with only 20 people.

Speaker1: Amazing. Um, there is that.

Speaker5: And how many.

Speaker3: Subscribers?

Speaker1: Oh [00:48:50] my gosh. Uh, I have to look, but it’s it’s consistently growing. But that’s merely because, [00:48:55] um, it’s consistency. And it’s [00:49:00] not like a one pill fixes all kind of concept. You know, this is something to build into your life and [00:49:05] which is why we have these amazing product iterations. Um, we have a wonderful NPD team [00:49:10] that are looking at something beyond the teas, beyond the blends. There’s some extraordinary things doing because we want to make sure [00:49:15] that dirty is part of your lifestyle, never to forced habit, but to kind [00:49:20] of elevate what you’re already doing. Um, and I.

Speaker3: Actually want to see a more readily available everywhere. [00:49:25] Like I go into coffee shops now and I’m like, I’m really angry. I can’t order a dirty because I’d rather have a dirty than a flat white. Now [00:49:30] what’s.

Speaker1: Happening? I mean, it’s happening. Yeah. It’s happening. I mean, we’re just you’ve probably seen we’ve now, um, [00:49:35] in listings and all boots or a.

Speaker5: Card.

Speaker3: With parlour.

Speaker5: We’ve had that as well, so I know. Yeah, [00:49:40] I remember.

Speaker1: Your photo of you outside with all your pile of products. Um, so the, the, [00:49:45] um, I think if I’m going back to your question, like the, the important thing is. Is [00:49:50] almost from our story, the fact that it positively affected our well-being. [00:49:55] The first thing is there’s an undeniable remit. Like, we’ve got to share this other people. Yeah, and that’s [00:50:00] when the movement starts. Uh, dirty is a great name for a conversation starter in an area [00:50:05] which has a misconception sometimes of mushrooms.

Speaker4: Brand. Yeah.

Speaker1: And so if I can say that, [00:50:10] um, the community is built out of the subscribers and those who are part [00:50:15] of the dirty community, the reason that the the tribe exists is because [00:50:20] I believe that everyone wants to be everyone wants to be better than yesterday. Yeah. Um, and [00:50:25] it’s a grandiose time to say, but every day you get an opportunity to do it again, but do it better. And my thing [00:50:30] was always, um, I think since the adversity of Covid, I do [00:50:35] believe that, uh, loneliness kills the spirit. And I think community kind of enhances [00:50:40] the spirit in many different ways. So, um, this was an idea of bringing [00:50:45] everyone to a meeting point. Um, what I find interesting is the paradox. No one wants to go into the cold, [00:50:50] but everyone comes. Everyone comes every morning. And, um, the idea of having between [00:50:55] 8 and 15 hugs a day is scientifically shows it increases your oxytocin levels. I can tell you it’s an average of [00:51:00] 20 hugs in our community, and these are strangers that have come together and come [00:51:05] to a meeting point where we all serve the same purpose. Just want to feel better.

Speaker4: What time in the morning is that? [00:51:10]

Speaker1: Uh, where do you live? Because. Okay. Yes. Uh, 7:00 between [00:51:15] 630 and 7:00. So you’re swimming with sunrise now? The thing is, um, everything [00:51:20] we’ve spoken about today is now supported by, you know, research, like, even, you know, so what we’ll do, actually, [00:51:25] we’ll have a dirty ceremony. We’ll drink lion’s mane before going and or drink cordyceps to increase [00:51:30] our kind of energy levels or, uh, or lion’s mane to be in that meditative state. Because years [00:51:35] ago, Shannon, Tibetan monks would drink lion’s mane to activate their qi and get deeper state of [00:51:40] meditation. So we do that in the morning and we we interrogate the fear of the cold, the idea of being the cold in [00:51:45] ten degrees or below, up to a certain amount of minutes, increases your, [00:51:50] um, your dopamine levels, your pursuit hormone, by up to 250%. Now, there’s no other [00:51:55] hours later. Yes, it’s like having our dirty matcha, which is a slow release of energy. [00:52:00] It’s a slow release of energy, and there’s no kind of dips to that. So the idea is that it’s not the easiest. [00:52:05] You know, I don’t think anyone’s going through an easy life, just generally, um, think that’s a rarity. So doing [00:52:10] something like this in the morning and knowing that everyone who comes is part of this dirty community, it kind of shows us something [00:52:15] more than just a transaction. And my I’ve always lived on the basis [00:52:20] that I passionately believe in community, and that’s why it exists within dirty. There’s so [00:52:25] many more things that we’re doing. There’s we do these dirty retreats, dirty weekends, we do dirty foraging, [00:52:30] dirty weekends.

Speaker5: But listen, but listen.

Speaker3: But but the thing is, it’s incredible because [00:52:35] they’ve also had like some of the biggest pioneers in wellness, you know, behind them, you know, [00:52:40] they’ve worked with Wim Hof, am I right?

Speaker5: Or you did some women.

Speaker1: Women. Russell, um, [00:52:45] Stella McCartney was one of our first partners. She we we actually created a nice, dirty, stellar tin selection [00:52:50] for her, um, her community. But, um, she has a passion for alternative, um, [00:52:55] fabric for fashion and, uh, fungi, mushrooms being. What, did you have.

Speaker4: Access [00:53:00] to these people? Was it your previous.

Speaker1: Uh, yeah. I mean, we’re always a couple of degrees of separation from, [00:53:05] uh, interesting people or pioneers of their respective industries. And I think it’s undeniable [00:53:10] for what we’re doing that people do want to get do want to back do want to collaborate.

Speaker5: So, Simon, there’s loads.

Speaker3: Of mushroom [00:53:15] brands and even like the feeling nuts. And you had like Ant and Dec like.

Speaker4: House now because a lot of. [00:53:20]

Speaker3: Yeah but how was it. Or have you always just been good at like I don’t know, like how do.

Speaker5: You meet these. [00:53:25]

Speaker3: People. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. I mean we uh.

Speaker3: He always like, he knows everyone. [00:53:30] You think I know everyone? He knows everyone.

Speaker4: If your mum is a PR you do get.

Speaker5: Yeah. Did you have any introductions. [00:53:35]

Speaker3: Via your mum.

Speaker1: No it’s not. No, no, no, it’s the DNA. I think it’s the DNA. What we drew from my my my mother. It’s [00:53:40] funny, I had a conversation with her yesterday, um, and we were talking about, [00:53:45] you know, growing up and and how she supported us randomly because we were talking about it today. [00:53:50] And I was inspired by her at a young age because she was going out there. She was going on stage at at schools [00:53:55] and talking about projects that she was involved in. So I did see her as an inspiration because it’s the mother. She’s [00:54:00] the one who pulls you into this world.

Speaker4: It’s a can do thing, you know, it’s if you see your it’s not necessarily that that his [00:54:05] mum directly introduced him to Stella McCartney, but it’s the fact that his mum was doing insignificant [00:54:10] things and he was watching.

Speaker5: I think that’s what also.

Speaker3: Yeah.

Speaker5: Yeah significant things.

Speaker4: It’s [00:54:15] interesting, you know.

Speaker5: Well that’s why.

Speaker3: I think like in dentistry as well, because I’ve always had like, you know, people always [00:54:20] ask even Prav, he’s like, how do you know these people? Even people have brought on the podcast. And I think it’s because I’ve naturally been [00:54:25] attracted to people that I feel are like movers and shakers. And I think there is something to [00:54:30] be said for like manifesting again, woo woo. But looking at those people, like I sort of like manifest [00:54:35] them into my life, you know, when I meet them because I, I’d listen to like Louis on podcast, [00:54:40] you know, I sort of knew Simon through Nino. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s all these different people that I’ve just sort of, [00:54:45] you know, attracted in my life. And I think there’s something to be said for that, you know.

Speaker1: I [00:54:50] think with certainly with my brother and I, we’ve, we’ve had mentors in our lives. Not not many but enough [00:54:55] and actually there’s a few more recently someone like, uh mogadore who’s a wonderful how do you know who I [00:55:00] met through a friend a few years ago. And, uh.

Speaker3: He’s my Egyptian soul brother.

Speaker5: You [00:55:05] know.

Speaker4: He’s my hero. I love him.

Speaker1: Uh, he’s a real darling. And, [00:55:10] uh, obviously had a tragic story. And that tragic story has given him a greater cause at the heart of it. So [00:55:15] we have a very deep and meaningful kind of connection. But I bring up the idea of mentors because there’s some things in life you [00:55:20] can never get at a lecture theatre. Yeah. Uh, travelling is a very important part, I think, to kind of totally [00:55:25] adopt the principles of different cultures, different way of life, different way of business thinking. And, uh, but just having [00:55:30] in a solid people in your life that you can rely upon, uh, there’s someone in our business [00:55:35] who’s our chair. I think you’ve you’ve met him, James Karzai, who’s also like a third [00:55:40] brother. Building a business like that is very rare. Um. [00:55:45]

Speaker4: Tell me about the going from the early days where, I guess, look in the. Do [00:55:50] you call this a supplements business? What do you call it?

Speaker1: It’s a very good question. It’s a very good question [00:55:55] because, yeah, it is a.

Speaker4: Lot of there’s a lot.

Speaker5: Of, uh, a wellness.

Speaker1: Wellness, I think we’ll [00:56:00] call it I think it’s important to call it wellness, because then you pigeonhole the whole, um, thinking process. [00:56:05]

Speaker4: Where I was going, there’s a lot of fakery in it. There’s I mean, I’m sure there’s good quality mushrooms [00:56:10] and bad quality mushrooms. I mean, I’m glad you brought that up. Get it from China?

Speaker1: Well, yeah, we my brother and I, um, [00:56:15] it’s actually using that word can create the misconception, but we. Because there’s an important part to that. We travelled the world [00:56:20] either digitally or physically, to find the best farms in the world. Because what we saw in the very beginning. Yeah. [00:56:25] Because, you know, we went everywhere in the northern hemisphere, Finland, you know, we went everywhere. And and it brought [00:56:30] some great realisation and education to the point. And, uh, you know, we, we, we [00:56:35] partnered with some of the most extraordinary mycologists to support our, our endeavour because at the heart of it, you can [00:56:40] create great marketing story, have a beautiful colour, a tin and a name. But it’s what happens [00:56:45] within that. You can’t fake it. And and it wouldn’t be right in [00:56:50] the heartbeat of why this started in the first place. So.

Speaker4: But it’s possible to fake it.

Speaker1: Yes. So [00:56:55] in America copy you.

Speaker4: They could just go on.

Speaker1: There right.

Speaker4: Now and just.

Speaker1: There are so many copycats at the moment. [00:57:00] I’m not I’m not saying that with confidence or braggadocio, but it’s absolute truth. [00:57:05] Yeah. Um, and I see the way they’re doing it and. Fine. But no one’s ever [00:57:10] come close to the way that we’re doing it, because we care so deeply about the transparency from forest to cup. We [00:57:15] say, now, if you look in America, it’s probably about 70 to 80% of all mushroom products, I think [00:57:20] mostly reishi that pull from the mycelial biomass that’s calling, that’s [00:57:25] pulling from the mycelium. Mycelium is a very, very important organism. Um, but when you pull from [00:57:30] it, when you’re extracting the mushroom, you’ll get nothing more than a fluff. It’s what’s within the fruiting body. [00:57:35] Now, if you want to go through the fruiting body process, that’s going to take time and costs. If you want to go through the mycelium, uh, [00:57:40] process, that’s going to be cheaper and easier and quicker to market. And that’s fine and actually fine go for it. [00:57:45] Because I would tell anyone right now who would listen to this, to take our product and take [00:57:50] every other product.

Speaker5: That’s what I’ve done.

Speaker1: Yeah. You have okay.

Speaker3: No no no no not not not every [00:57:55] no not every other one. But I think at one point I don’t know, my practice manager [00:58:00] bought me a different one. She’s like oh it’s slightly cheaper because I’ve been an avid subscriber. And I was like, I hate it tastes disgusting. [00:58:05] Like I’m just going to be completely honest with you. I loved dirty. And the thing is, I’m always [00:58:10] somebody that is happy to spend the money to invest in my health. I’ve just like that. Parlour’s [00:58:15] also a very expensive product, you know, and you know, because we’ve become a lot more like ingredient led as [00:58:20] well, you know, and Simon is so strict on making sure that we don’t compromise [00:58:25] on like, ingredients and packaging because he’s like, we this is a mission based project, [00:58:30] you know, so we have to be true to ourselves and our subscribers. So I think that that’s really important. [00:58:35]

Speaker4: At what point did you know, wow, this is more than just a sort of a [00:58:40] pet project. And it’s going to become becoming a gigantic business because because, you [00:58:45] know, I got to tell you, I’m a little bit jealous.

Speaker5: Of my success. No, no.

Speaker4: No, not success that [00:58:50] that you didn’t go through the massive pain. We went through six years of losses. [00:58:55] Yeah, well, there were challenges.

Speaker1: Definitely. Yeah, yeah, I’m sure we could meet at the same level [00:59:00] of those challenges. I’ll be jealous.

Speaker4: Is a bad word, but. But what I’m saying is that 2021, you started, [00:59:05] you said. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: It was it was coming out of Covid.

Speaker5: And it’s been astronomical growth.

Speaker4: 2023. [00:59:10] Yeah. What was it very early on that it became obvious? My God, it’s caught on.

Speaker1: I think [00:59:15] the tipping point comes if it’s about social kind of impact. Is the people sharing [00:59:20] it online, talking about it and the things they say is like, I couldn’t even tell you to say something like that to help [00:59:25] our product. But that was coming from a tearful, authentic, emotional human being who’ve been drinking our teas. [00:59:30] I think also, when we started doing our ceremonies in the very beginning, which Nino was part [00:59:35] of, we would basically copy what our the experience [00:59:40] we had, and then friends would have it and they’d feel the same. Our family members would have it and they would feel [00:59:45] the same. So by that point, you’re like this.

Speaker4: We’re on to something.

Speaker1: We’re on to something. And we didn’t. See, it’s [00:59:50] not like we didn’t. It wasn’t about seeing $1 billion kind of. It was about we seeing something that’s going to support, [00:59:55] you know, maybe that’s the the empathetic, maybe that’s the empathetic part. Empathetic [01:00:00] part that both my brother and I maybe lead with. Um, um, but I would say the distinction [01:00:05] between my brother and I. He’s an extraordinary CEO. Extraordinary CEO. Um, [01:00:10] I’m part my role is, you know, visionary on the creative partnerships and just building [01:00:15] that community out. And the one thing when you’re building, if you realise that’s not in your wheelhouse, don’t get too, uh, [01:00:20] trodden down by it. Yeah. Um, but we have both. We know [01:00:25] our roles, we know our responsibilities, and we know our core reason why we’re doing this. And if we can wake up every [01:00:30] day and understand and have that mantra about why are we doing what we’re doing, then even maybe the toughest times [01:00:35] can be slightly bit easier. Um, so the so transparency [01:00:40] has always been important. The science has been important. The research and the customer feedback has been incredibly [01:00:45] important. But transparency, uh, from forest to cup, the whole process of extracting a [01:00:50] mushroom is not an easy one.

Speaker1: And we’ve we’ve partnered with the family farm, six generations [01:00:55] of foragers within the community. 70% of them are foragers. And they’ve mastered the [01:01:00] extraction process. And it took a bit of time to find out who they are, how they do it. And [01:01:05] and now you just literally, you know, teaspoon of lion’s mane, for example. [01:01:10] Uh, it just becomes incredibly water soluble. The other thing is the, the reason [01:01:15] we brought I think it’s important we brought the, um, different, uh, extract powders out was to educate [01:01:20] everyone on each one, because we only ever started this as a as an educational platform. How do you take the complicated [01:01:25] language of fungi, simplify it, suppress the fear, and allow people to [01:01:30] understand your you’re drinking your ancestors? Because we show up to about 54% DNA with fungi. [01:01:35] So you’re half a mushroom, so love it. Um, [01:01:40] and and the mushrooms want to be they want to be harvest. They want to be picked. They want to be consumed. They want to be. [01:01:45] They want to be sporulated and put back into the earth. There’s an amazing kind of hole.

Speaker5: There is something so.

Speaker3: Beautiful [01:01:50] and so spiritual about the whole thing. Yeah. Um, I find this is also [01:01:55] fascinating. I could actually speak to you for hours and hours and hours. Simon, I think we’re probably gonna have to get you back with Andy. [01:02:00] Yeah. Thank you for being so helpful and so insightful. Um, [01:02:05] I honestly, like, I just feel like such joy when I, like, you know, spend time with you. And honestly, [01:02:10] I really think that dirty is not just a brand. It’s. It is a lifestyle. You know, [01:02:15] for me, I literally miss it, I crave it, it has helped me so much. But as you said, it’s also [01:02:20] the community that comes around it. And I think that, you know, you’re a real, um, asset [01:02:25] to this sort of world, especially the kind of, um, subscription world. And I’m honestly [01:02:30] so grateful that you could come today. So hope everyone converts to dirty. I’m not. I [01:02:35] pay for my subscription, by the way, if anyone is asking me. But honestly, it’s been amazing. [01:02:40]

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker1: Thank you.

Speaker4: Thank you so much for coming.

Speaker5: Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker1: Thank you, thank.

Speaker4: You. Inspiration.

Speaker5: Real inspiration. [01:02:45] Thank you.