Speaker1: You’ve got to kind of put yourself first because we are individuals and if you’re not operating okay up here [00:00:05] for yourself, you’re not going to be able to like, do anything else that you’re going to start falling apart. So you always [00:00:10] have to put yourself first.

Speaker2: This is mind [00:00:15] movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental [00:00:20] health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts [00:00:25] Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Speaker3: Sophie. [00:00:30] Hi. Hi. I’m so happy to have you here [00:00:35] today. Sophie, I’m going to give you a little bit of background. So Sophie is somebody that I followed online for a really [00:00:40] long time. I had a massive girl crush on her, actually. And then I started working with [00:00:45] the incredible Becky Knowles, who works in PR. She started playing our parlour, you know, at the beginning, and [00:00:50] we had loads of amazing press. And she said to me, I’d love to send you Sophie Milner. I was like, I have low key even [00:00:55] like girl crushing her, liking all her stuff. One of the things that drew me to [00:01:00] Sophie was that she’s incredibly brave online, and what I mean that she doesn’t hold [00:01:05] back and she’s very opinionated in that sort of, you know, in that way that makes you proud to be [00:01:10] a woman. She often expresses herself in a way that I find very difficult, and I find her [00:01:15] to be very fair online, whilst also not taking any crap from anyone, which is what I struggle [00:01:20] with all the time, because I always feel like I’m people pleasing. Sophie’s not only one of the biggest [00:01:25] content creators in the UK, she’s also an academic. Um, so she’s somebody [00:01:30] that, you know, went to university, is very successful in her own right when it came to academia, [00:01:35] was a journalist, then turned content creator. And she definitely give [00:01:40] her a follow because she always provides the most insightful posts and talks about all sorts of issues, [00:01:45] from feminism to gender, gender identity to relationships to [00:01:50] fashion. So welcome. Sophie.

Speaker1: Hi. Oh my God, that was so nice. Thank you for having me.

Speaker3: No, [00:01:55] I’m so I’m so pleased that you could be here today. So for those of for [00:02:00] those people that don’t know you or don’t follow you, I want you to basically just give a little bit of background [00:02:05] on how you started content creating a little bit of your journey from school, university to now. [00:02:10]

Speaker1: Sure. So I started off doing journalism at university in Cardiff, and then I really I, [00:02:15] you know, I had that dream that every girl has of being a fashion writer in the city. So I went [00:02:20] on to do fashion journalism at Central Saint Martins as my master’s degree, which was [00:02:25] amazing, totally different experience. And then after that, I’ll be very honest, I really [00:02:30] struggled to get a job in journalism because I went straight into doing a master’s [00:02:35] degree and I didn’t really do any interning. It was that horrible issue of, oh, [00:02:40] you’re overqualified, but under experienced, go away and intern for free someplace [00:02:45] for a little while and will maybe consider giving you a job. I was obviously living [00:02:50] in London. I’d spent 18 months doing a master’s degree. I was like, I can’t afford to work for free anymore. [00:02:55] So I ended up going into copywriting at a luxury department store for their online, [00:03:00] um, side, which was which was good. It was a it was a very it was quite creatively [00:03:05] draining job. It’s definitely one of those jobs that they would be able to do just with AI now. So I don’t even [00:03:10] know if I’d be employed anymore if I still work there. But it’s um.

Speaker3: And to.

Speaker1: Chatgpt. Yeah, [00:03:15] legit. I feel like there’d be someone just plugging things into that, but it was just like writing creative copy [00:03:20] for, um, fashion pieces, which was kind of fun for a while, but it was the same thing every [00:03:25] day. And at the time I started my original blog. So this was like back in like [00:03:30] the blogger days when it wasn’t you weren’t an influencer or content creator, you were a blogger. So I’d started [00:03:35] that doing whilst I was doing my first degree because I was like, oh, I want to show that I have some like fashion interests [00:03:40] and experience. And I kept it up through my master’s and my [00:03:45] first job, and it ended up doing better than I [00:03:50] kind of was in my actual job. And even though I was applying and freelancing for like other journalism roles, [00:03:55] I just started earning more money on sort of like my side hustle than I was in my everyday [00:04:00] job. And at that point I was like, yeah, I kind of need to leave my job. And that was seven, [00:04:05] nearly seven, eight years ago now. But back then.

Speaker3: How would people how would bloggers monetise? [00:04:10] Right. Because for me, I used to sometimes see blogs. Do you ever read blogs? Obviously on fashion? Yeah. And I thought, you can’t [00:04:15] monetise this. I mean, I just thought this was something people did, you know, for fun. Well, it was.

Speaker1: Like it was the same as you’d see a sponsored Instagram [00:04:20] post. It was a sponsored blog post. So you would write about the products. It was almost as like SEO. So [00:04:25] you would write about like the products and the brands and whatever you were being paid to promote. And usually you’d kind [00:04:30] of almost do it as a package deal where they’d be like, oh, we want one Instagram post and a blog [00:04:35] post and what would be your fee for this? And you kind of sell it as a package, and your Instagram post would [00:04:40] essentially promote your blog post. And yeah, it would just help them with SEO. So this was like the old school days. But then [00:04:45] as things were like taking off, it was all just about like Instagram promotion and like, [00:04:50] you know, this was even know this was just as Instagram Stories became a thing. Yeah. So yeah, it was [00:04:55] all around the time of like when Instagram was really booming. Youtube as well, I do YouTube. The majority [00:05:00] of my followers grew during the 2016 period, and that was like [00:05:05] I went from having like zero subscribers to 32,000, and now to this day I have 42,000, [00:05:10] but I’ve only grown that last 10,000 in the past, like, like six years. [00:05:15]

Speaker3: But you know what? It’s so funny because we had someone else, um, who was an incredible podcaster. She [00:05:20] actually boomed. So she literally gained like 100,000 followers within like six months. And she’s [00:05:25] at that stage now where she’s like, you feel it’s almost like a blank. Blessing and a curse because you’re [00:05:30] like, wow, I must be doing something right. And then you grow really slowly and you’re like, what am I not doing [00:05:35] right? And then you get into that kind of like self-critical space and start to question yourself. [00:05:40] So I think, you know, that’s the sort of danger about growing so fast, you know.

Speaker1: No, it’s [00:05:45] so true. I grew really, really fast over the space of around about a year, [00:05:50] and then everything slowed down. And then it does. You kind of go, it was, you know, what? That [00:05:55] person describing it as a blessing and a curse is so, so right. Because I when I was growing, [00:06:00] I felt so overwhelmed. I actually had the worst anxiety. My mental health was possibly nearly [00:06:05] the worst it’s probably ever been, and I felt very out of control. I also didn’t have an agent [00:06:10] back then, so I had no real support and I just moved in by myself. [00:06:15] So I was living alone and it was just very difficult to manage, and I felt like I was getting hundreds of DMs [00:06:20] a day, like people just replying to my stories and people just like sending me messages being like, oh, what [00:06:25] would you wear to like, you know, like your boyfriend’s like best friend’s dinner, like kind of thing. And I [00:06:30] just felt so overwhelmed all the time. I felt like I was suffocating. So when [00:06:35] things slowed down, even though I was there, like, oh my God, like, do people hate me? Am I doing something [00:06:40] wrong? Am I like, am I a failure? It was all those things at the same time. I was like, this [00:06:45] piece is kind of nice. Like it’s a little bit like at least I feel like I can slow down a [00:06:50] little bit and I don’t feel like I’m being overwhelmed as much. So it was like a blessing and a curse [00:06:55] for sure.

Speaker3: No, I love that. So we move on because I think, you know, a lot of people [00:07:00] also think that they cannot leave a vocational career and then move [00:07:05] on to kind of like the online world. And we’re lucky enough to have had lots of people, like in the public eye [00:07:10] and in the online world. But it’s not for the faint hearted. You speak [00:07:15] about your mental health a lot, right? I want to know, though, what who was [00:07:20] your first kind of role model online that pushed you? Because I think confidence is a massive thing, [00:07:25] right? Like even me when I was starting like now I’ve got a platform, Dental platform, etc., [00:07:30] there was definitely someone that I looked up to that was like, I want to be like you. And it was from a confidence point [00:07:35] of view more than anything. And I knew that that’s what I wanted to emulate. So who was that person for you?

Speaker1: So [00:07:40] I always really loved, um, this woman called, um, Audrey Layton Rogers, and [00:07:45] she. She’s still around. Yeah. She is, so she is. Look her up. She is. She goes [00:07:50] under the name of, uh. Well, we used to go under the name of, um, be Frassi. And that was how she started as a blog. And she was just [00:07:55] this really amazing, sassy, stylish woman. And she’s just she’s a writer as well. So the way that she communicates [00:08:00] online, even when she’s talking, or if she’s just writing Instagram stories, it’s just so smart. And she’s [00:08:05] become a friend of mine over the years, which is amazing. And I met up with her like last, [00:08:10] last September in Barcelona, where she was living at the time for the first time, having been online friends with her for years. [00:08:15] But she’s just always, I don’t know, like I she really inspired me just to kind of like, really speak my [00:08:20] mind and be a powerful woman because she is a powerful woman. She’s someone who goes to the gym and weight [00:08:25] lifts and her like aspiration is to be like really muscly. And, you know, men will send her like, messages [00:08:30] on dating apps and be like, oh, are you trans and things? Because she’s so muscly and she’s like, no, I just have bigger [00:08:35] muscles than you. So it’s like, she’s just she’s just a really amazing, inspiring woman. Like [00:08:40] she’s very like, I can be like strong, muscular, feminine, all of these things. And one, she’s an [00:08:45] incredible businesswoman. Um, owns a brand now, and she’s based in Paris. Yeah. She’s amazing. She’s really. Please [00:08:50] look her up. She’s great. But my question.

Speaker3: Is to you as well. Were you always vocal online since day one? [00:08:55]

Speaker1: I actually think. Yes, I actually, [00:09:00] to be honest, yeah. Even when I first started my blog, I would always speak about slightly more [00:09:05] controversial topics or like more opinionated, not controversial, but like [00:09:10] I would, I would share my opinions more. And I guess it kind of comes from being a writer [00:09:15] and studying writing and even this actually really funny. I even think back to when I was 14 [00:09:20] and, you know, when the MSN was a thing and you had like these little like, MSN blog things. [00:09:25] And I used to write a blog, and I remember writing a fashion report of what everyone wore to prom when I was 14, [00:09:30] and I said that I was really disappointed that one of the boys showed up wearing shorts with a tuxedo, [00:09:35] and I just thought I said that he looked messy. And then he sent me like a really mean message afterwards. So that was like my first [00:09:40] trolling experience. At 14, he said he hopes that I died. I was like, oh my God, I received my [00:09:45] first death threat. 14 so I think I’ve always been quite like, opinionated. I just I think back [00:09:50] then I wasn’t necessarily sure the weight that my opinions held because I was felt like I was shouting [00:09:55] into a empty room, whereas now I’m very aware that the room is full with a lot [00:10:00] of people. Yeah.

Speaker3: It’s so funny that because I think that, you know, especially as women, we [00:10:05] can show traits of, I want to call it leadership, right? I want to call it leadership. Like, you can be a young [00:10:10] guy, like I was a loud young girl, and I love the camera. And I used to get labelled [00:10:15] as bossy, right. Because I used to be, you know, I used to be that girl that wanted all the attention. And I [00:10:20] think we’re recognising that was probably leadership skills that I was showing from a young age. And I think, like now, if [00:10:25] I have a daughter, I would like actually want to encourage her and I’d want to [00:10:30] like harness those as well. But I think in a way, like you sort of know the woman that you are or like from [00:10:35] a young age, and it’s important about being able to kind of express yourself in a way. [00:10:40]

Speaker1: Yeah, completely. It’s really weird because I feel like I was always I had this like loud, [00:10:45] like bossy girl within me that wanted to come out, but I was always [00:10:50] quite on the surface, very shy. It took me I don’t know what it took me to bring that out, but I’m the [00:10:55] same. I’d. I think it’s a shame I was even thinking of this whole, like how women are labelled bossy [00:11:00] and men are named like labelled like assertive. To two hours ago I was thinking [00:11:05] I was just, I don’t know where my train of thought just went there and I was like, why is it that this always happens? It’s really annoying [00:11:10] because even now I catch myself still sometimes referring to women and thinking, oh yeah, she’s nice, but she’s a little bit bossy. [00:11:15] And then I’m like, oh, I just did that thing. And like, yeah, it’s kind of having that self accountability. But [00:11:20] yeah.

Speaker4: I think the sorry to interrupt, but I think the the [00:11:25] interesting question is both of you as kind of influencers, I mean, in your way and [00:11:30] in your way, that there must be a tension between what you want to say and [00:11:35] what works to say.

Speaker3: We both looked at each other.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:40] Like a very knowing look like, oh yeah.

Speaker4: And, you know, to take it to its extreme, I mean, you could just walk [00:11:45] around in bikinis and you’re following, you’re following would grow, no doubt. Yeah, but that’s [00:11:50] not what you want to represent right to. Obviously you’re not going to do that. But what I’m [00:11:55] saying is how much of what you do is, is dictated by the algorithm. [00:12:00] And that worked. I’m going to do that again. And how much of it is what’s on your mind? And I guess there is this [00:12:05] perfect moment when the two things coincide.

Speaker3: I think I, you know, I like it’ll be interesting [00:12:10] to hear like Sophie’s viewpoint, because I think also an art to being a [00:12:15] successful content creator is mastering the algorithm. Because at the end of the day, if your [00:12:20] job is a full time job as a content creator, you need to monetise that as well. Let’s be honest, [00:12:25] it’s your full time job, right? It’s not just something that you do sort of on the side, which is more like me because I’m just [00:12:30] trying to gain patience. I don’t necessarily need to get paid for like ads and things like that, but when [00:12:35] I hit the algorithm, I’m like, oh, I know that this is working. So I therefore need to do that. But that doesn’t [00:12:40] sometimes align with what I want to do, because sometimes I put out something. I’m like, I love that even. It [00:12:45] might be like a sound bite of something that we’ve done. And I’m like, I love that. Me and Payman really spoke with passion [00:12:50] and it flops on the algorithm and I’m like, but why don’t people care about human rights, you know? [00:12:55] And then I might post something like, um, like you say, a sexy transition [00:13:00] and it does better. And I’m like, why is that done better? Or the opposite can happen. I want my sexy transition [00:13:05] to do well. I’m like, people aren’t validating the way that I look. So there is this internal dichotomy that goes [00:13:10] on between what I want to post and what I want to do well versus what I know does [00:13:15] well. And I think it’s interesting because sometimes I post stuff on stories first before I do on post, I’m like, oh, [00:13:20] that’s done well on stories, then I’ll post it. Does that make sense?

Speaker1: That’s really smart. See, I, I have this quite [00:13:25] a bit and I see things that obviously do very well on Instagram. And I have seen [00:13:30] creators that I follow grow like a hundred thousand followers in quite [00:13:35] a short space of time. And there is this very, very, very popular form of content right now. [00:13:40] And it is. And I you know what I’m going to say it. It’s and this is no shade at all because I think [00:13:45] it works for some people, but it doesn’t quite sit well with me. And it’s um, and I understand why it does. Well, [00:13:50] so it’s this whole form of content of, um, recreating Pinterest outfits on a size 10 [00:13:55] to 12 body or a size 12 to 14 body. And they are quite average [00:14:00] sizes for a lot of women to be in their late 20s, early 30s. [00:14:05] But we don’t necessarily see it replicated and we don’t see it on Pinterest. But these [00:14:10] kind of pieces of content tend to go viral a lot because a lot of people want to see it. [00:14:15] But for me, I don’t know. I have suffered with a lot of body issues in my in my life, [00:14:20] and I find that content that is very size specific can [00:14:25] be quite triggering.

Speaker1: And I don’t know, but that’s just very me and I, [00:14:30] I don’t know, it opens up channels of debate in the comments. And, you know, I’ve seen other people [00:14:35] do it before and people will be in the comments being like, oh my God, you’re not a size 12. You’re you’re definitely [00:14:40] way bigger than that. And oh no, no, what are you talking about? She only looks like a size ten. And I [00:14:45] just like, I could never put myself in the firing line of people dissecting my body. And I think when [00:14:50] you put out content saying, oh, recreating these outfits on a X kind [00:14:55] of body, you are instantly opening the conversation for your body to be dissected and spoken [00:15:00] about. So for me, even though I know I could probably gain a lot of followers by doing that, I [00:15:05] just can’t put myself there because once again, it will destroy my mind and [00:15:10] it will trigger me massively.

Speaker3: So what’s interesting that you say that because I don’t know if you’ve seen Sophie’s content, but Sophie’s [00:15:15] also been very open about surgery she’s had or kind of facial cosmetic procedures. [00:15:20] So when you’re so open and doing that, do you not feel like you’re putting yourself in the firing line then like, what’s [00:15:25] the difference?

Speaker1: I feel as though it’s it’s my face [00:15:30] and I feel it’s a real difficult thing that I’ve really toyed with. I remember when I had my nose [00:15:35] job and I, I didn’t want to tell anyone, I wasn’t going to tell anybody. [00:15:40] And I remember speaking to a few of my close friends and they were like, Sophie, how the hell are you going to hide it? It’s on your face. And I [00:15:45] was like, I know, but like, I’m having a very natural nose job. And I felt like I couldn’t [00:15:50] hide, hide that I had to tell the truth. And a lot of people said, oh, you know, [00:15:55] it’s better to be honest and open about getting work done than then [00:16:00] to, to hide it because, you know, like these beauty standards and, you know, it’s you’re [00:16:05] contributing to a problem by not speaking about it. And I was like, but am I not contributing [00:16:10] to a problem by speaking about it? Am I not encouraging people to go and get surgery? [00:16:15] And then I was stuck with this problem. And I’ve spoken about this so much, and it’s something that I still feel so conflicted [00:16:20] by.

Speaker1: And I flip between the two all the time, and it’s, do I tell [00:16:25] people about my cosmetic surgery, which I have, I have done or do [00:16:30] I and like, you know, risk encouraging people to go get surgery or do I just not say [00:16:35] anything? And I and like, you know, then people don’t know. But then people might look at me and be like, oh, she looks [00:16:40] so great. And oh, I wish I looked like that. And then it feels like a lie. So I don’t ever [00:16:45] know what to do. And I’ve, I’ve gone the other way now where sometimes I’m like, I actually don’t know if I want [00:16:50] to talk about it anymore, because I don’t know if it is helpful as much as [00:16:55] people like, oh no, it’s really helpful to be honest. We love transparency and influencer. I’m like, I don’t know if [00:17:00] it does help people, so I really don’t know what the answer is. And I feel conflicted all the time. It actually like makes [00:17:05] me feel really guilty.

Speaker4: The thing is, this needle that you’re dancing on is the whole problem. [00:17:10] Where in with Instagram, let’s say you can’t look at someone’s Instagram profile and no one [00:17:15] thinks you look at someone’s Instagram profile, that’s their life, because it is a sort of a highlight reel. At [00:17:20] the same time, what seems to work is authenticity. And [00:17:25] so he talks.

Speaker3: About this all the time.

Speaker4: Oh do you. So yeah. So so so you know the [00:17:30] problem is those two that tension between those two. But I noticed I was looking at your content. [00:17:35] I noticed you were doing things like uh, catcalling um, as a, as a he was.

Speaker3: Super interested [00:17:40] in this. He’s like, how often do you get catcalled? I was like, sometimes he’s like, but she gets catcalled all the time. I was like, [00:17:45] okay, fine, you know, are you feeling bad? I was like, okay, then that’s cool. Thanks for coming. [00:17:50] You know?

Speaker4: You know. So for instance, I didn’t even know it was a thing. I had no idea it was a thing, really. [00:17:55] Um, I do remember when I was 17 years old, one of my friends doing it all the time, but. [00:18:00] But I didn’t realise it was still a thing. I didn’t realise it was something that bothered you. Yeah. And there is a [00:18:05] I mean, I don’t think it’s equivalent, but there is a opposite of catcalling that I’ve [00:18:10] seen as well.

Speaker3: But with men.

Speaker4: Well, I’ve got friends who’ve got supercars and women are trying [00:18:15] to get their attention as they’re driving. Do you know, I’ve seen that many. I’ve been in the I’ve been in the car. [00:18:20]

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah. So that does happen too.

Speaker3: But because I think it’s really important that Sophie has [00:18:25] this conversation because when the Sophie, when the Sophie Everard thing happened, Sarah Everard [00:18:30] um, when the Sophie Sarah when the Sarah Everard thing happened, Sophie was very [00:18:35] vocal about it and felt very passionate because obviously as women we felt so much violation. [00:18:40] Um, you know, she represented so many of us and so many different ways, [00:18:45] you know, and you were really open about that. What I have found interesting, though, and I’d be interested [00:18:50] to get your view on this. I recently went out with a few girlfriends [00:18:55] and what I realised is women behave. Really? Really thirsty to men, even if men [00:19:00] have a girlfriend. I was so shocked. This has happened to me a few times, where I’ve been [00:19:05] out with my girlfriends and other women are blatantly hitting on their boyfriends blatantly, [00:19:10] blatantly. And I’m like, whoa, this is such a like boundary like. And I felt really. [00:19:15] And my girlfriends get really upset because they’re like, I’m standing here like, it’s so rude. Do you know what I mean? [00:19:20] And so I was like, this is so interesting. But obviously I asked the guys, I’m like, do you like that, guys? And they’re like, no, [00:19:25] we actually don’t like it. So, you know, you speak a lot, which is what I want to touch on [00:19:30] you on, like, you know, kind of men, you know, female energy, male energy, toxic masculinity, all these different [00:19:35] elements. So like, let’s break it down, like with with catcalling. What how does it make you feel [00:19:40] and what and do you think that we are moving more towards the side where we’re actually [00:19:45] scaring men off to make a move?

Speaker1: I mean, catcalling makes me feel naked on the street. It [00:19:50] makes me feel uncomfortable. Even earlier today, I was walking [00:19:55] up a road and I saw a group of, um, builders scaffolders. Instantly I felt anxiety [00:20:00] because I was just like, fuck sake, here we go again. Sorry. So I was just like, here we go again. Okay, good. Because [00:20:05] I was just like, because it happened so frequently. And whether it’s just whistles, whether it’s just the way they all stop and stare and put down [00:20:10] their tools and stare as you, as you walk by. And I know people will be like, it’s a compliment, but it’s not. And a really good example [00:20:15] of this is the fact that there have been times where men [00:20:20] in those environments have been have actually, genuinely paid me [00:20:25] a compliment. So there was a delivery driver, and delivery drivers can be quite notorious for catcalling and beeping [00:20:30] their horns or staring out the window. There was a delivery driver who was doing a delivery and I was walking by and he went, oh [00:20:35] my God, you’re absolutely gorgeous. Have a really lovely day. And it was so, so [00:20:40] nice. Whereas that is so different to a man like beeping their horn really aggressive at you [00:20:45] and then making you jump and then them laughing at you, that is completely different. Like [00:20:50] one is a compliment. One is not a compliment. And this is the thing. It’s how it is put [00:20:55] out there. I had this guy come up to me in the street and, you know, he sounds really bad.

Speaker1: He looked he looked [00:21:00] homeless and he came up and he was just he got he got quite close to me and then went, you’re bloody lovely, darling. Where are [00:21:05] you going tonight? I hope you have a lovely time. And I was just like, you’re so nice. That is so. And it wasn’t [00:21:10] threatening. It wasn’t horrible. He just left it as it was. And I think that’s the thing. I think a lot of people, people who [00:21:15] say like, oh, yeah, well, you know, catcalling, catcalling, it’s just a compliment. It’s not, it’s not if [00:21:20] it’s not done in a complimentary way. And I think a lot of men will hide what they’re doing [00:21:25] as a compliment, when actually it’s just them trying to impose their power dynamics. [00:21:30] I got I’ve got men fired before because I called their employers. I complained about [00:21:35] them, I called their employers, and I posted online about it, and I was just like this company. Someone called me. And then actually, [00:21:40] like the female CEO called me and were like, we are absolutely disgusted [00:21:45] by this behaviour. We want to know exactly where this happened. Do you have a photo? Send us the photos. We need the registration [00:21:50] plate. And then they ended up firing the guys like it’s happened a few times and [00:21:55] it’s. But the companies have always taken it very seriously. So this is what I’d always say. I would always say complain [00:22:00] to the company and I think they.

Speaker4: Deserve to be fired.

Speaker1: Yeah I do, they should know better. They absolutely should [00:22:05] know better. Like you shouldn’t be going around treating people like me. I don’t think so. And I think that’s the thing. I think at least [00:22:10] he should have been reprimanded. I think, okay, maybe fired was a little bit harsh, but I feel that at [00:22:15] the end of the day, it needs to be taken seriously. And I think if someone gets fired, it shows that [00:22:20] they’re taking it. Yeah, it shows that they’re taking it seriously and that other people won’t be doing it anymore.

Speaker3: So [00:22:25] my question is though, so we have a lot of we talk a lot about men’s mental health as well. [00:22:30] And you know that like the biggest cause of male death under the age of 25 is male suicide. [00:22:35] And, you know, men are massively underrepresented. I talk a lot about Andrew Tate and I shouldn’t on this [00:22:40] podcast because I feel like we’ve really failed society. If he is [00:22:45] the male, um, the person that men look up to, you know, I feel like we’ve really [00:22:50] failed them. But my question is as well, how do we I mean, [00:22:55] how can we do better? Do you know what I mean? Because also. So on the one hand, I totally agree with you. [00:23:00] Men shouldn’t treat women like me. The ones that are behaving badly, you know, should sort [00:23:05] of like be called out. We should set a precedent and a standard. But do you not think that also some guys [00:23:10] will be like, well, I don’t know how to approach a girl, like, what’s the way to do it? You know, like, how can we do [00:23:15] better for these guys? And who can be who can be, who can be like the person that they look [00:23:20] up to? Okay.

Speaker1: So this question I feel is twofold. Guys who are like, oh my God, I’m scared to approach a woman. Honestly, [00:23:25] if you’re scared to approach a woman, then you don’t know how to approach a woman. So that’s one thing that’s that’s instantly a problem. Go [00:23:30] on YouTube, you can find it out. Like, honestly, look at how look at how women find female content [00:23:35] creators who say how to approach a woman. Totally. But then the whole thing about actually [00:23:40] like men’s mental health and then not having a role model, that in itself is a very, very sad and [00:23:45] difficult issue. And the thing is, I genuinely do believe there are a lot of male role models out [00:23:50] there that are a lot healthier, but I think what we need to I don’t think it’s a case of like, oh, we don’t have them [00:23:55] because they exist. Like I always I mean, I’m a. Formula one fan. So I’m like Lewis Hamilton. [00:24:00] He’s amazing. Like, you know, he he stands up for, you know, women’s rights, LGBTQ [00:24:05] rights. He stands up for men’s rights. He stands up for. And he still.

Speaker3: Gives like an alpha.

Speaker1: Energy. Yeah. And he’s [00:24:10] like he’s a mixed race man. So he’s like you know he’s a he’s a black man. So it’s like but maybe that’s [00:24:15] part of the problem. Maybe there’s racism in there. That’s why people don’t want to look up to him. They want to look up to like a, [00:24:20] uh, someone who is a straight, very straight white man who doesn’t represent all these other things. [00:24:25] And I think that’s that’s the issue. I think there are a lot of male role models out there who [00:24:30] are good people, but for some reason, a lot of men are gravitating towards these [00:24:35] bad role models. And I think I don’t know why that is. [00:24:40] I feel I do I feel like I feel like men in society today feel, do feel quite lost. And I think, [00:24:45] I think the issue is a lot of women have gained a lot more equality, and [00:24:50] men are feeling slightly uncomfortable, like they don’t necessarily [00:24:55] know where their place is anymore because they’ve always kind of had that role of being like, oh, I’m a provider, I do this, I [00:25:00] do that well now it’s like a lot of women are outearning men in a lot of cases. And, you know, like doing better [00:25:05] than men. And I think men are a bit like, oh, well, where do I stand? And well, you know, you can buy me dinner. And I think [00:25:10] it’s kind of level the playing field and makes them feel like they don’t know where they belong. But I don’t feel like the [00:25:15] answer to that is to then make women feel like shit. Like. No. Like, you know, [00:25:20] I feel like there needs to be a a better solution. But with we don’t know what that [00:25:25] is. You know what.

Speaker3: My pet peeve is? Men that say, oh, she intimidates me. She’s intimidating. [00:25:30] Oh, and I know that you think that’s a thing. You’re like me. No, because I’m just like, it’s annoying. Like, just man [00:25:35] up. Do you know what I mean? Like, why am I intimidating you? Because I have a voice. Like, I’m sure Sophie gets all the time [00:25:40] because I have an opinion, you know? And it was so. It was so funny because I [00:25:45] was with a group of friends, and, um, one of my friends is dating a very sort of alpha [00:25:50] guy, and he was like, I want my a girlfriend. That’s [00:25:55] my plus one.

Speaker4: He’s a fool. He’s a.

Speaker3: Fool. I love that, I love that. [00:26:00]

Speaker4: Yeah, but the intimate intimidation thing is real. Insomuch as when when you’re younger, as [00:26:05] a man. I mean, you say that you should just go and find out, but it’s very, [00:26:10] very, very hard as a as a man to even approach a girl. Yeah. These [00:26:15] days when everyone’s in their phones. Yeah. It’s, you know, there’s, there’s nothing there’s, there’s, there’s [00:26:20] no way of making any connection. At the same time we’ve got swiping to the right or whatever that is. [00:26:25] Yeah. So, so that’s kind of made up for it. Yeah. But the Andrew Tate thing that we keep on talking about unfortunately [00:26:30] I think it’s, it’s a, it’s a case of what you said is right Sophie [00:26:35] that that underprivileged men. And by that I don’t mean [00:26:40] black or I mean it turns out white underprivileged men are [00:26:45] some of the most unrepresented people in society. Yeah, they’re the ones who do the worst [00:26:50] in society. And that may have been the cause of Brexit. True. [00:26:55]

Speaker3: Yeah. Fear. It’s the fear. It’s the fear that made them. Yeah.

Speaker4: It’s like right now a voice [00:27:00] is being given to women, trans people, you know, uh, different races, but white [00:27:05] underprivileged men haven’t got a voice. And so they’ve gravitated to this sort of extremes. [00:27:10]

Speaker1: I don’t know if I feel like they don’t have a voice. They’ve always had a voice. I feel like I [00:27:15] feel like if there’s a pie chart and there’s like, this much voice, [00:27:20] I feel like they’ve always had such a big percentage. But I feel like now because of, like other, like slices [00:27:25] of this pie are being handed out to, to to more minority communities. They feel like they don’t have a [00:27:30] voice anymore, but they still do have one.

Speaker4: The thing is, Sophie, so you speak for trans people. Yeah. What the percentage [00:27:35] of those compared to white men.

Speaker1: Yeah. But it’s more the fact that like they’re [00:27:40] a minority and they haven’t, they haven’t had a voice for a really long time.

Speaker4: Percentage of those in society is what [00:27:45] I don’t know what it is. What is.

Speaker1: It? I don’t know what it is either. I don’t know, I’m not a trans expert. [00:27:50] I just like advocate.

Speaker4: I’m just one less than 1%. Yeah. So if they’re less than [00:27:55] 1% are given a voice and then you’ve got men who [00:28:00] might be, I don’t know, underprivileged men might be 20% haven’t got a voice. [00:28:05] That’s where it’s come from.

Speaker3: Yeah, perhaps. Perhaps. And that’s why they gravitate towards people like Jordan Peterson [00:28:10] as well. You know, like which I know is a massively like, controversial figure and interestingly, [00:28:15] somewhat um, um, he said some really rogue things. What did he say? Oh, [00:28:20] this is not for this podcast. The rogue things, trust me. Um, basically. But who [00:28:25] is piers Morgan was actually interviewing Jordan Peterson. And I know, like the one thing about [00:28:30] Piers Morgan that I appreciate is that he just gives a platform to different voices. [00:28:35] And recently, like, I know that like a lot of people don’t like him, and I completely can see why. But I [00:28:40] think over like only very recently, I’m like the person that he put like for example, like, as you [00:28:45] know, like I’m from an ethnic minority. And he recently allowed like a big YouTuber who was like from [00:28:50] Egypt, um, to come on there, that would normally be considered quite controversial. And he has like he [00:28:55] had a voice, you know, for the Middle East anyway. So when he came on there, he said to Jordan, he’s like, you sound [00:29:00] like you’re the voice of like, sad, lonely white men. He actually said that. So as you were saying that, [00:29:05] I was like, it’s kind of true. So they do have that voice in a way. You know, I do think that there is that sort of representation. [00:29:10] Um, one thing that I wanted to ask you, though, as well, is [00:29:15] that, you know, you’re very open about your mental health online. Do you feel over the last decade [00:29:20] that your mental health has become, you know, very difficult [00:29:25] because of being online? Or do you think it’s because of the difficulties of just growing up, as it were?

Speaker1: I [00:29:30] definitely online is a big trigger, and it has been a big trigger for me, I think, especially when, [00:29:35] like I said, my platform was growing a lot and I felt very overwhelmed. And even sometimes [00:29:40] it feels I don’t really get a lot of bad comments anymore.

Speaker3: But [00:29:45] I think it’s because you call them out and I admire you for it. Because even when you get like the negative nellies, you’ll [00:29:50] screenshot it and be like, and today is like winner is.

Speaker1: You know what? I’ve actually stopped [00:29:55] doing that as much because I actually felt like I was feeding it more. And I mean, [00:30:00] very much so, like this kind of very transitional phase of my life where I usually call a lot of stuff [00:30:05] out, but now I’m a little bit like I’m very picky and choosy with it because I’m like, actually, do I really want to spend my [00:30:10] energy on that? Or do I just want to just let that go? Like, unless it’s like really bad and I feel like I really [00:30:15] need to like argue with my case. I feel a lot of people that come to you and complain about [00:30:20] things or have a go at you. It’s the thing is you’re you’re not going to change their minds. [00:30:25] And trying to change their mind is actually a total waste of your energy, and it’s not [00:30:30] worth it. So even the other day I posted about something and I got some shit [00:30:35] for it quite quickly, and I deleted the thing and I just instantly was just, I just, [00:30:40] I was like, I, I could get into an argument with this person or I could try and explain [00:30:45] myself, but I was like, there is no point because they’re never going to see my point of view.

Speaker1: They’re just not. That’s the thing. [00:30:50] And I just find in terms of my mental health, it’s really changed over the years. I’m [00:30:55] in a very good place with it now where I find it easier to let things go. But even now I find it [00:31:00] people. It’s just tick tock. People are so mean on TikTok. Like, I [00:31:05] don’t usually look at the comments either, but it’s just like when I have done, I’m like [00:31:10] are like, oh, and it takes me back to how I felt when my platform was first growing. And like, I would get [00:31:15] really mean comment about the fillers that I had back then. To be honest, my fillers were really awful back then anyway, [00:31:20] so I kind of deserved it. But it’s just it’s difficult. I recently so I, I’ve [00:31:25] gone through like bouts of depression over the years and I spent three years on [00:31:30] antidepressants, which I then, you know, came off and I’m really glad that I came off them.

Speaker3: Can you tell us a [00:31:35] little bit if you don’t mind sharing, though, do you, do you believe because we were talking about this, do you believe the antidepressants, in hindsight [00:31:40] masked your symptoms rather than got like to the root cause of them? [00:31:45] And do you think they had their place and would you take them again if you needed them?

Speaker1: Okay. Very, [00:31:50] very, very complicated. It’s a simple question but complicated answers and very conflicted feelings. So [00:31:55] I would absolutely personally try and avoid taking them again. And [00:32:00] this is simply because for me, after a while of being on them, they really numbed me out. [00:32:05] Um, I also gained a lot of weight on them, which [00:32:10] then I have, like I said, I have body image issues. And then that I went into really full blown body [00:32:15] dysmorphia where I was like then experiencing a whole different mental health issue, [00:32:20] and it was horrible. So I felt really out of control of my body. So [00:32:25] it was really difficult. So I was like, oh, what do I have? And I then actually came off them and [00:32:30] like, really? I was in Bali and I actually didn’t take enough with me and I was like, oh God, I’m going to have to [00:32:35] stop taking my antidepressants. And I was like, I’ll have them. I’ll wean myself off them. And then I just actually was fine. Like, I [00:32:40] didn’t really have any withdrawal symptoms. And I was in such a good place mentally because I’d been really doing the work, and I’d always [00:32:45] tried to do the work. I’d been in therapy for years, but I don’t know, something just felt different.

Speaker1: I [00:32:50] felt like something had shifted in me, and I really started looking into, like, more holistic ways. And I’m [00:32:55] never going to be one of those people who’s like, you’re going to heal everything holistically. But I will always try and be someone who will [00:33:00] heal something holistically first. And then after a few months of being off my [00:33:05] antidepressants, I then started noticing I was getting depressed again. But it would [00:33:10] last for like two weeks and then go away for two weeks and then would come back for two weeks and go away for two [00:33:15] weeks. And then it hit me in January last year. This, this year, um, [00:33:20] that I thought it was Pmdd, which is premenstrual dysphoric disorder, which is essentially [00:33:25] severe PMS. And it’s caused it’s not really known exactly exactly what causes it. Some [00:33:30] social and it’s like but basically it’s like having suicidal thoughts and tendencies and [00:33:35] ideations before your period. You, um, like, you can’t leave the house, you have no energy, [00:33:40] you have rage, you honestly become a monster. And it is it is like PMS [00:33:45] on steroids. And it it felt like someone just flipped a switch. One day in my brain, I’d [00:33:50] wake up and I’d be a different person.

Speaker1: And it was really scary. I used to actually feel like I was hallucinating, [00:33:55] like the walls were closing in on me and it got. A very scary to a point where my parents had to come down and [00:34:00] stay with me for a while because they were like, we can’t let you be alone. And I went and saw a specialist [00:34:05] and they were like, you know, there’s several routes of treatment. But once again, it was going to take me [00:34:10] back down to the antidepressant route. And I was just like, which actually I look back and I’m like, was [00:34:15] my antidepressants just masking Pmdd for years? Was I ever really depressed or did I [00:34:20] just have Pmdd? I don’t know, but either way, whatever happens, I just changed. Like my diet [00:34:25] and the supplements that I was taking. I started seeking holistic measures and getting acupuncture a few times a [00:34:30] month, and it completely changed everything. And it took a little while. [00:34:35] But like, I actually feel in control and even just knowing what it is, knowing like tracking [00:34:40] my cycle, knowing when it’s coming, I can feel I feel more in control of it. So if I have a I just manage my lifestyle [00:34:45] a little.

Speaker3: I totally agree, I think knowledge is power and I’m the same as well. Sorry. Pay. This is a very girly, [00:34:50] girly girly.

Speaker1: Like.

Speaker3: Route. But ultimately what I realised was is like [00:34:55] hormones. Hormones are the things that like really, really differentiate us. [00:35:00] Like it’s so it’s crazy like for women. And I’m sure you’ve seen this with your wife as [00:35:05] well. Like it really does control things. And it really even like my decision making process is completely [00:35:10] altered at like certain points now, having an app and knowing at what point I am in my [00:35:15] cycle has totally empowered me because like I said, if I’m like, why do I feel so crap today? And [00:35:20] like, the world is like caving in on me, and then I’ll look and I’ll be like, okay, I know I feel this way [00:35:25] because of this. I’m still feeling this way, but I know that this isn’t a permanent state, and I think there’s something [00:35:30] so powerful in that. It is.

Speaker1: It’s so true. And I think it’s it is one of these things that I think women’s [00:35:35] hormones have kind of been laughed off as like, oh my God, hormonal. And we do ourselves like, oh my [00:35:40] God. Yeah, I’m just pmsing. And like we, we do it to kind of like normalise it and just make it not seem like a big [00:35:45] deal, but it can be a really big deal. Do you guys.

Speaker4: Think do you guys think the stigma of talking about, [00:35:50] you know, PMS is a thing that we should get over and it should be that [00:35:55] you can you should be able to say, it’s my period and I’m not feeling like talking about this or [00:36:00] whatever. I think.

Speaker3: 100%. Do you know what you know? Like there are days I don’t know how bad Sophie’s get. Sophie’s [00:36:05] get Rs. But there are days where I really don’t want to turn up to stuff, and I almost feel like I [00:36:10] need, like if if we acknowledged it and validated it and I’m like, my PMS [00:36:15] or Pmdd is so bad today, I feel crippled. I don’t want to leave the house. That’s how I feel sometimes, but [00:36:20] I feel like I can’t say it because people will be like, get over yourself and take a paracetamol when it’s actually more complex than that. I literally [00:36:25] just want to be on the sofa doing nothing and like, brood. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker1: Like, you know, I think it’s actually really brilliant. [00:36:30] There is so much more conversations happening from, you know, like big celebrities and, you know, people [00:36:35] who are in like the medical industry talking about this and the impact of it. And I’m seeing it more and more, [00:36:40] even globally, like people speak in America, like Australia, talking about it. So it is getting [00:36:45] a lot more even like Pmdd was on it, like it had like a little feature on Emmerdale. One of the girls in Emmerdale [00:36:50] had. Yeah, I think it was Emmerdale. So it is getting more publicity, which is great.

Speaker4: Are you not conflicted about [00:36:55] it though, because you know, there’s a, there’s a misogynistic side that says, oh, women shouldn’t [00:37:00] be judges because what if they’re having a bad, you know, day? You know, in Islam it’s actually [00:37:05] written. It’s one of the things that’s written. So are you not conflicted by that? I’m quite conflicted [00:37:10] myself. Yeah. Because, you know, there are women I know, uh, very close to me who [00:37:15] I never know when, when, when it’s their period. And there’s women I know who [00:37:20] tell me every time that’s.

Speaker3: Gonna be me. Yeah.

Speaker4: But. And I’m a bit conflicted because. Because [00:37:25] to start with, I used to think, well, don’t tell me about it, you know, just handle your handle yourself. [00:37:30] Yeah. But then when you hear about the the stories of how bad it can be, like suicidal thoughts [00:37:35] once a month, I mean, it’s a ridiculous thing. Um, I didn’t know that. Yeah. And if that’s [00:37:40] a real thing that we should that should be we should accommodate. Yeah, that should be taught to boys and girls. [00:37:45] And then, you know, this is a real thing. Yeah. You know, it’s definitely such a weird.

Speaker1: It is, it is. It’s [00:37:50] my it was actually my dad who was the one who googled it and was like looking into it. My dad was like, oh my God, this is exactly what [00:37:55] Sophie has. And it was my dad who was like the biggest advocate for like me [00:38:00] seeing a specialist and seeing the right person about this and like, which really surprised [00:38:05] me because my dad’s like 70 years old. He’s like the most like typical straight white, like working [00:38:10] class guy from the Midlands ever. But it was really sweet and um, but yeah, it [00:38:15] is, but I do I feel I feel conflicted sometimes because I’ve always my mum on the other hand was always [00:38:20] there like, oh yeah, well it’s just hormones. You should be able to control your hormones and your emotions. Sophie and I just couldn’t [00:38:25] growing up. I found it really hard and like, there is a thing in my head where it’s like, [00:38:30] well, I should be able to. And I don’t like the fact that, like, I’m affected by this. Like, I [00:38:35] don’t like it and it makes me feel like a weaker person and it bothers me. Whereas now [00:38:40] it’s like I’m just like, you know what? Stop trying to fight it and just go with it. And like, if I’m having like, [00:38:45] I like I said, I don’t get the suicidal thoughts anymore.

Speaker1: Like, I don’t get this and that because there is [00:38:50] whatever I’m taking now to help. And like the acupuncture, it has just alleviated [00:38:55] everything. It’s managed it and it’s amazing and I haven’t. Had to take anything else, but a lot of women get it worse. The only thing I [00:39:00] would say about talking about it I found like people suggested forums, [00:39:05] they were like, oh, look on this forum on Reddit and look on this like join this Facebook support group. Oh my [00:39:10] God, it was hell. It was because everyone was talking about like the worst parts of it. And it made me feel [00:39:15] worse. And it made me feel scared. It made me feel really, really scared and negative. Yeah. And then if [00:39:20] someone shared a success story being like, oh, I’ve been taking these supplements and I’ve been doing this and this has helped, [00:39:25] people would kind of then like shit on it and be like, oh, well, good for you. I’m having to [00:39:30] take because HRT is one of the treatments for it. Yeah. So some people and like if it gets that bad, some people [00:39:35] have to have a hysterectomy. So it’s really severe. But like but how.

Speaker4: How far should [00:39:40] we take it? Rona, if your nurse calls in and says I can’t come in today because it’s my.

Speaker3: Listen, I’m very. [00:39:45]

Speaker4: Listen by the.

Speaker3: Way I think I think look listen it’s very different right. As in like, you know, now being [00:39:50] an employer, I have a lot of empathy because in a way it’s part of mental [00:39:55] health. And I have so much empathy for mental health because I and, you [00:40:00] know, I still struggle with being open in terms of like when I don’t want to turn up to things. I really struggle [00:40:05] with actually telling people, you know, I’m not I’m talking about social things. There are days where I’m like, I have such [00:40:10] bad anxiety, I don’t actually want to go. But I forced myself to go. And that’s again because I’ve been conditioned, [00:40:15] like you said, like pull yourself out of it sort of attitude, when actually it’s probably really healthy [00:40:20] for me to just sit with the emotions at home. Like, I’m not saying like sit there and be in a depressive state, [00:40:25] but, you know, sometimes just sitting with the emotions can be okay for you. And don’t get me wrong, sometimes [00:40:30] going out and actually that was really nice to see my friends and like, you know what I mean? Get into that. But [00:40:35] mental health in the workplace with my job. Um, some people I [00:40:40] think have been abusing it, I think because they’ve been like, they know that the conversation’s more open. [00:40:45] They’ve been like, I’m going to use this as an excuse not to come in when I know they don’t really [00:40:50] suffer with that. But obviously because I know because.

Speaker4: I hear, you know, I hear you, I hear you.

Speaker3: No, no, no, because [00:40:55] it will be a character that I’ve worked with. And I know that they’ve been binge drinking and gone [00:41:00] to like, a Hindu, and suddenly they call up for mental health when you’re like, you’re just hung over, you know what I mean? [00:41:05]

Speaker4: The thing is, the thing is, yeah, in these situations, either the employee is going [00:41:10] to get one over on the employer or the other way around, like if you’re too hard on [00:41:15] it. Yeah. There’ll be times where you, you actually make people come in or, or make but I.

Speaker3: Don’t, but I [00:41:20] don’t, but I never do, but I never do.

Speaker4: So so what I’m saying is I would rather my employee gets one [00:41:25] over on me. I would rather a few employees cheat. Yeah. Then my [00:41:30] actual suffering employee isn’t her. Oh, yeah, 100%.

Speaker3: But that’s that’s that’s already [00:41:35] it. Because I never question it is my point. You know, like, I sometimes you have a hunch because you really know sort [00:41:40] of the type of person. But I never question it because I have such a strong [00:41:45] like view. And I get frustrated because I feel people still around me don’t aren’t empathetic [00:41:50] to my own situation, you know? So I would never do that, you know, and I think that that’s like [00:41:55] really important, as I said, like people having open conversations like Sophie does all the time about this [00:42:00] stuff is always like a great comfort because I’m like conversations being open. And I know how many people you reach, you know, [00:42:05] through those conversations. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker4: Can I ask you, Sophie? Sorry. There was something you said [00:42:10] on the podcast that I listened to about travelling alone. Yeah. And [00:42:15] also about this is the one I’m really interested in eating alone in restaurants.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:42:20]

Speaker4: And is that a worry? Like, would you not eat alone in a restaurant?

Speaker1: I would, [00:42:25] but I don’t. I don’t think I’d go out for dinner in London just because, I don’t know. I just feel like I just it’s [00:42:30] more just because, like, I like being at home and I’m like, I don’t know if I could be bothered to go out for dinner. If [00:42:35] I was out and I was hungry, I would do it, but I wouldn’t take myself out because I’m like, I like to, I [00:42:40] love, I love to cook and I’m like, why would I take myself out and spend £40 on a nice dinner and a drink?

Speaker4: Listen, [00:42:45] let’s say you were in another town or something and you, you were on your own. Would you, would you order [00:42:50] delivery to your hotel or would you go, like.

Speaker3: If you’re in Paris, for.

Speaker4: Example? Oh, let’s let’s [00:42:55] leave that to one. If you did go out by yourself in, in Manchester, how [00:43:00] is it that you feel that do you feel people are looking at you thinking, is she on her own?

Speaker1: Yeah, sometimes, yeah. [00:43:05] I feel like it feels a bit more weird in the UK. I’d feel weirder about it in Manchester than I would [00:43:10] in London. Probably so funny because honestly, no, I agree. Well, I grew up in Leicester and there was this very weird [00:43:15] judgement around, like doing anything by yourself, I remember. No, honestly, I [00:43:20] went shopping. I remember I was like, I had the afternoon off college and I went shopping and my boyfriend at the time was like, [00:43:25] oh, are you going shopping with? And I was like, oh, I’m just going by myself. And he was like, that’s so embarrassing. Why would you [00:43:30] go shopping by yourself? That’s so weird and embarrassing. So maybe obviously things like this have ingrained it [00:43:35] in my head that it’s embarrassing to do things alone. And I feel a lot of people have maybe had similar things, but [00:43:40] it’s something that I’m now like, I’m questioning a lot because it’s just like I’m the kind of [00:43:45] person that if I feel a certain way, I like to ask myself why I feel that way. Yeah. And like, challenge myself.

Speaker4: You’re [00:43:50] sitting in this restaurant by yourself, eating, reading a book. You actually thinking that person [00:43:55] thinks I’m. What?

Speaker1: No, I’m. So this is this is a thing. It’s it’s the I often [00:44:00] people, including myself, we’re more worried about the idea of something than the reality of something. [00:44:05] So that’s the thing. Like, I feel like in reality I’d be like, this is very nice. [00:44:10] This is really chill. I don’t give a fuck. Whereas like the idea of it, I’m like, oh, like, that makes me feel [00:44:15] like, oh no, what if people look at me? So yeah, it’s just kind of I’m kind of in this like period of unpicking [00:44:20] myself from caring so much about what people think, whilst also kind of having a job where [00:44:25] it’s kind of my job for people. Yes, exactly. It’s conflicting. I feel like my life is like [00:44:30] a constant conflict of what about you.

Speaker4: Um, by yourself in a restaurant?

Speaker3: Do you worry about do you know what [00:44:35] I had? It’s so funny, right? Because I have always [00:44:40] said to myself, it’s so important to be comfortable on your own. And [00:44:45] my journey was a little bit different because I had I was one of those tick box like [00:44:50] life plan people. So basically, like, I went to school and I knew I wanted to nail my A-levels and GCSEs because I needed [00:44:55] to get into dentistry. So I wasn’t interested in having a boyfriend. So like, we hung out with like boys schools, [00:45:00] but I really wasn’t distracted by boys. Does that make sense? Because I was like, I just want to like, nail my exams. [00:45:05] Then I was like, I’m going to find my boyfriend at uni and then I’m going to be married by the time I’m 30. Like, you know, like all those like [00:45:10] BS, you know, 36 now, not married. But anyway, I basically then decided, [00:45:15] um, that when I went to university I was [00:45:20] like already like so happy, like being on my own. And then I had a few heartbreaks [00:45:25] in university, and I kind of, like set out on this mission of, like, being really comfortable on your own. And one of the challenges [00:45:30] was like doing stuff on your own. I remember at university, I went to the theatre on my own because I thought that was [00:45:35] a really, like, brave thing to do, you know, kind of like towards the end of university.

Speaker3: But [00:45:40] the whole time I kept thinking, it’s so important to be on your own. It wasn’t [00:45:45] like I enjoyed the theatre on my own. I just kept thinking, you have to do this, you know what I mean? [00:45:50] Whereas now I actually don’t have a problem. But like, as Sophie said, say I’m like, [00:45:55] out and about and then I’m like, I’m hungry. I’ll go and get dinner on my own. I don’t really mind, but [00:46:00] more likely I will probably sit on my phone or call a friend whilst I’m on dinner, which is not really being on your [00:46:05] own. Would I go and sit in Nobu on my own? Probably not. You know what I mean? Because I think [00:46:10] that also those sorts of things are like shared experiences, but it’s not so much. I’m like thinking of people [00:46:15] looking at me. But you’re right, like different places in London, if you’re sat on your own in Nobu, people [00:46:20] are going to be like, oh my God, she gets stood up. That’s probably what people think, you know what I mean? In a swanky restaurant. Whereas if you’re [00:46:25] having like Pret at 6 p.m. on your own, I think people would think about it and I’d be completely fine with it. Do [00:46:30] you see what I mean?

Speaker4: I think it goes further than that. I mean, I think I think it’s like a by extension, [00:46:35] the question of should you be married by a certain age? Should you have kids?

Speaker3: I love those things [00:46:40] because Sophie’s also been like a beacon of like, truth for me in this sense.

Speaker4: You know, all of those things. I just [00:46:45] didn’t realise there was such a thing anymore. I think they.

Speaker3: Are a thing. What do you think? I mean, look, do you think [00:46:50] that women nowadays feel the pressure [00:46:55] and stigma to do things by a certain age? Or do you think it’s become less?

Speaker1: It’s definitely become less. Yeah. I don’t think [00:47:00] it is as much of a thing, but I think it comes probably more so. I think it’s a family thing [00:47:05] because I, I’m really lucky. My parents are very chill. They’re like, don’t get married, sorry, don’t have [00:47:10] children, don’t do any of that. Like, you know, they just want me to focus on myself, which is great. [00:47:15] But it’s really weird. Then when I speak to friends that are the same age of me and they’re like, [00:47:20] oh, don’t you don’t your parents are really pressurise you to get married. Aren’t your parents like, oh, when are you getting married? [00:47:25] Come on, clock’s ticking. And I’m like, no, they are the opposite. So I feel a lot of my friends. [00:47:30] The pressure comes from their family, who may be a bit more traditional, so I [00:47:35] think, but I definitely think it’s a lot. The pressure is a lot less than it was before because people are kind of [00:47:40] making their own path. So yeah.

Speaker3: And why do you think that is? Like for example, [00:47:45] from from your point of view, uh, do you want to get married? Do you care for it? No, [00:47:50] no. And why did you kind of come to that decision? It was.

Speaker1: Really weird. I found my diary from last [00:47:55] year at the start of, like last year, and it was like, oh, what my goals are in the next like ten years. And one [00:48:00] of them was like to get engaged and married to a man that I really love. This was what, like it [00:48:05] just over 18 months ago. And now I’m so anti the idea of getting married because [00:48:10] you know what? No I’m not. If I felt like it was important to my partner I’d be like it’s [00:48:15] not that I’m anti I just don’t care. I don’t see how it benefits me really like [00:48:20] that much. I don’t want to have children if it benefits me in like a guest, like a financial way, then [00:48:25] sure. Why not? Like but if I don’t really feel like I need to do it.

Speaker4: To [00:48:30] make an active decision that you don’t want children or it’s never you’ve never felt.

Speaker1: I’ve never. I’ve never wanted, [00:48:35] I never wanted them. And I just always assumed that as I got older, I would want to have them. And I get further [00:48:40] from it all the time, like further and further from it. And I just, I, I have, I [00:48:45] have a dog and that’s, that’s difficult enough and I love him, but I hate the fact that there’s something so that’s [00:48:50] so reliant on me. Um, it’s stressful. It’s very stressful, [00:48:55] and I can’t I know, I know how. How much I love and how much I give. And I give everything [00:49:00] of myself to others around me. And I the thought of having to give that to a child [00:49:05] and for for the rest of my life is actually [00:49:10] like, really a terrifying thought. Like, I just, I’m so happy in my own life, I don’t feel like I need I [00:49:15] think.

Speaker3: I think that’s really important as well. Payman because as you were saying, like, again, society has been like because [00:49:20] women can reproduce, they should reproduce. Whereas there are some women that really resent [00:49:25] having children or really resent, you know, not everyone loves, um, you [00:49:30] know, the thought of being a mother. Not everyone wants to be a mother.

Speaker4: I’ve, [00:49:35] you know, having employed a bunch of people, I’ve, I’ve had people say that and [00:49:40] now have three kids. So I’ve seen I’ve seen the transition. But you’re absolutely [00:49:45] right in that the decision to be single or the decision to [00:49:50] not have children should be put on the same status as the decision to get married and have [00:49:55] 2.4 children. Yeah. There’s no reason why one should be better than the other at all, because [00:50:00] in the time that I’m feeding my baby, you could be feeding the hungry in, in, [00:50:05] you know, wherever in Africa, you know. You know what I mean? There’s not one is not better than the other. Yeah. It’s just, you [00:50:10] know, a different choice in life, a different ways of living.

Speaker1: Definitely, definitely. And I think that’s the thing I think people need to remember. [00:50:15] Like, it is, it is. It’s a choice that people make. And like, I, I don’t want kids, [00:50:20] but I want my friends to have kids. I don’t want to have a life without children in it. I want to be able to, like, meet my friend’s children and [00:50:25] have that. Yeah, I just want to be able to give them back at the end of the day and just like, not have to worry about it. [00:50:30] So yeah, I think it’s really beautiful. But choice is important and respecting others choices is important too. [00:50:35] Yeah.

Speaker3: So tell me something, Sophie, how do you handle. We talked a little bit about [00:50:40] people giving their, like unsolicited advice and opinions. But how do you handle feedback? [00:50:45] Do you think that there is a difference between critique, criticism and feedback? And how? If [00:50:50] so, how do you handle it?

Speaker1: Absolutely. I feel you definitely put it into different boxes here. There’s people who just [00:50:55] want to criticise you and get a reaction and make you feel bad, whereas there’s people who will [00:51:00] give you feedback and you know what? There may be an element of kind of like a gotcha kind [00:51:05] of thing with it, especially if you’re a content creator or someone with a platform who speaks [00:51:10] about certain things and speaks about issues. People. I think people assume that [00:51:15] you have like you believe that you’re more morally superior. So if you say something [00:51:20] or get something wrong and they want to criticise you on it, they kind of people tend to revel in it a [00:51:25] little bit. Yeah, like I ha, I got you like you made a mistake. I’m in dentistry. Yeah, yeah I [00:51:30] bet. And I had it the other day. I said, I, um, I actually kind of like I [00:51:35] sent out an email without really thinking, um, too much. It was a newsletter and I got [00:51:40] a couple responses from it being like, oh, this was a little bit like kind of too focussed at [00:51:45] straight people.

Speaker1: It wasn’t very inclusive. And you know what? Like, even though, like that kind of bit of criticism [00:51:50] was like, oh no. Like it was like a knife in my heart. And I felt like I’d really messed up. It was actually [00:51:55] pretty fair criticism to for them to give. And I just said, like, I’m like, [00:52:00] you know, thank you for like, opening my eyes to this. Like, this was actually like, I really appreciate it. And I [00:52:05] would never, ever want to make anyone feel excluded because ultimately, as annoying as it can be when someone criticises [00:52:10] you, that kind of criticism, I know, comes from a good place of being [00:52:15] like, you know, like I want to be included. Yeah, exactly. Or I felt excluded by this. And it’s just [00:52:20] like, I’m not that kind of person that ever wants anyone to feel excluded. So I’m like, you know, I’ll take that on board. But sometimes [00:52:25] when it’s criticism, when someone’s just being mean, it’s just when it’s that kind of criticism. [00:52:30] I just I just have to ignore it.

Speaker3: I literally said earlier before you left [00:52:35] because I was saying that I was getting some hate online, um, earlier on this week, and someone said, [00:52:40] I’m unfollowing immediately. And I literally wanted to reply and say, this isn’t an airport. You [00:52:45] don’t need to announce your departure, love. You know, like, I just don’t get it. Like, you know, like, shut up, [00:52:50] you know, like and people feel that they they need to tell you that, like, as if also because [00:52:55] of.

Speaker4: Virtue signalling in it. And I think there’s virtue signalling in the comment you had as well. Right. [00:53:00] Yeah. I think even though even though you think that it might have been, you know, some, you know, okay. But you [00:53:05] know, it’s a funny thing because social media has got the comment section. Yeah. [00:53:10] That’s what makes it social. Yeah. And uh, we like the nice bits. We also don’t like [00:53:15] don’t like the criticism. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a weird situation we’re in that [00:53:20] anyone. One thing we’ve discussed a lot on, on this, uh, platform is the idea that [00:53:25] sometimes a fashion influencer isn’t allowed to [00:53:30] also be deep.

Speaker3: So true.

Speaker4: Or a dentist isn’t allowed to be shallow. [00:53:35]

Speaker3: Yeah. It’s like it’s like I can’t talk about fashion, apparently, because I’m a dentist, but it’s like, but this [00:53:40] is.

Speaker1: This is the issue. And this is what I said to a couple of my friends. I think that society [00:53:45] still has an issue with women being more than one thing. They like to put women in boxes. [00:53:50] It’s like, oh, you need to be like hot and pretty, but you don’t need to have an opinion. You need to be. You need [00:53:55] to be the smart, intelligent dentist. But. Like, not hot. I don’t want I don’t want to see your outfit and how, like, cool [00:54:00] your outfit is and your hair, like, you know, you shouldn’t be showing that. And I think even though women can be more than [00:54:05] one thing, I think I think people have an issue with it and I feel like they’re like, oh, but it makes me feel more comfortable seeing [00:54:10] you as this. So it is, it is. People think it’s just.

Speaker4: Women, you know, like I was I was I was talking about, [00:54:15] uh, I used to think a guy who’s really into sports isn’t into politics. [00:54:20]

Speaker1: It’s true. Because we have we.

Speaker3: Had we had someone on this podcast that’s really into [00:54:25] sort of like sculpting his body. Yeah. Um, but he’s actually really intelligent as well. And I think, [00:54:30] like, again, we have that stigma of like gym bros. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you’re somebody who and I think [00:54:35] that it’s really funny as well because there’s also and this is something I want to delve [00:54:40] into you as a strong woman, I’ve always been attracted [00:54:45] to strong women. So that’s why I gravitate to women like you. And it’s really funny because [00:54:50] Payman told me a few weeks ago that a certain female didn’t want [00:54:55] to come on this podcast. Look, she’s like, dying, didn’t. Okay, okay, fine, [00:55:00] fine, fine. I won’t bring up. Okay, so so so I’ve been told before, there’s certain [00:55:05] females.

Speaker4: I don’t see you as a strong, strong woman.

Speaker3: Thanks. So he winds me [00:55:10] up. He winds me up. He was.

Speaker4: What do you think? Being a strong woman is like a no.

Speaker3: But, you know, I’ve [00:55:15] been told before that like certain, certain females who I have no idea who they are, by the way, [00:55:20] will be like, oh, Rona doesn’t stand up for female rights or Rona doesn’t. And like, I’m such a kind [00:55:25] of like, cheerleader as well, by the way. And it’s and I don’t even know who they are out.

Speaker4: Of the ordinary. [00:55:30] You’re out of the ordinary. Yeah.

Speaker3: But what does that even mean? See what I mean? You know. No no, no.

Speaker4: Yeah. [00:55:35] You are you’re you’re an outlier. Yeah.

Speaker3: But I think for a dentist, for a, for a dentist because Sophie [00:55:40] doesn’t know the context. And like you said, like people want to, like box doctors and dentists into this thing. [00:55:45] They want to.

Speaker1: Box everyone up. Yeah, because it makes it easier.

Speaker3: It makes me really. But what I was going to ask you [00:55:50] as well is like, obviously like you’re a girls girl, you’ve got loads of female friends, so have I. But do you not find [00:55:55] that sometimes there’s criticism from women that feel that they don’t have a voice in a way, I don’t [00:56:00] even know how to put it. I don’t know what I mean, but I think you know what I mean. As in women that feel that they’re not like putting themselves [00:56:05] out there, and then they feel entitled to critique what we’re doing as if we’re arrogant. [00:56:10] Yeah. Do you see what I mean?

Speaker1: Yeah, I think so. I think there’s well, I guess it kind of comes down to internalised [00:56:15] misogyny. A lot of the time it feels like, you know, women, women hating on other women for being successful [00:56:20] and stuff.

Speaker4: Okay, listen. Listen to this, man. I have a son and a daughter. I drive them around. [00:56:25] Yeah. The conversations that I hear in the back of the car with my daughter and [00:56:30] her friends, and compare that to the conversation I hear in the back of the car with my son and his friends. [00:56:35] You know, women. The girl on girl sort of aggression is gigantic, [00:56:40] man. And my, my, my daughter isn’t that kind of girl. I thought, yeah, but they just [00:56:45] the girl on girl aggression is just a thing. It’s part of. It’s who we are. You know, I think that there’s an we [00:56:50] need to kind of accept that to some extent as well.

Speaker3: This is the thing I want to ask Sophie. So Sophie just, you [00:56:55] know, for people that don’t understand, can you explain what internalised misogyny is?

Speaker1: It’s basically when [00:57:00] I’m probably gonna really, like, mess up the explanation. So misogyny is obviously like the hatred of, [00:57:05] of of women. And, um, eternalised misogyny is when women hate on other [00:57:10] women, but it kind of comes from things that are essentially sort of set a lot of the time by men, but it’s essentially women [00:57:15] hating on other.

Speaker4: Women, a self-hating.

Speaker1: Woman. Yeah, it’s just women hate and women. But there is there’s [00:57:20] a lot of it. And it’s a real shame because it’s like sometimes like the issue is I the majority of criticism, [00:57:25] I get that, you know, obviously most of the people who follow me are women, like 87% [00:57:30] or something. So obviously the majority of criticism will be from women. But it is you, I [00:57:35] think I think the issue is and this this comes back to what I said not too long ago, I [00:57:40] really like to challenge the way that I see things, and if I feel a certain way, I like to challenge myself [00:57:45] and be like, well, why do I feel like that is correct? If why am I triggered? Yeah, exactly. And I remember I first did this [00:57:50] years ago. I must have been 22. I was working in a Mexican restaurant whilst doing my master’s degree and I finished [00:57:55] like two in the morning. It was a really late shift walking home and these girls are walking through Soho looking amazing. [00:58:00] Three girls, tall, beautiful, stunning. And I was there wearing like this awful, like Mexican [00:58:05] covered food everywhere, smelling badly. And these guys [00:58:10] walked by and I just went. I just said in my head I went slags. And I caught myself. And it was like, [00:58:15] why did I say that? To like, I didn’t say it to them, but I said it in my head and I was like, I [00:58:20] said that in my head because these three beautiful, confident women are going on a night out [00:58:25] and they’re going to have a really nice time.

Speaker1: They look amazing. I’ve just finished a 12 hour shift [00:58:30] and I look and feel like crap, and it’s a jealousy and an envy thing. And I was like, this is really [00:58:35] uncomfortable and horrible and I don’t like that. I did that and I started picking it apart [00:58:40] and I would notice myself doing it and then was like, no, I need to change it. And it’s something that I really changed over [00:58:45] the years. Yeah. And it’s something I really changed over this. Sometimes it even gets me now. Like if I see [00:58:50] like another influencer on a really cool press trip and I’m like, ah, bitch. But I’m like, like, that’s [00:58:55] coming from jealousy and envy. Do the work. Yes, it’s a problem, but unfortunately a lot [00:59:00] of people will do that. And they’re either they’re not self-aware enough to recognise it, or they [00:59:05] just simply won’t ever admit it because they don’t want to admit that the issue they feel triggered in themselves, and [00:59:10] that seeing someone be, I don’t know, like loud or cringey or whatever [00:59:15] online, it makes them feel this way in themselves. And that’s what I’m.

Speaker3: Trying to say to [00:59:20] you. So you might not think that, but like, I put myself out there, whatever you think. So when I get the criticism [00:59:25] from the other female dentists, I’m like, but why are you hating on me? That’s a you problem. [00:59:30] Because what I’m doing is not necessarily hugely controversial. You know, let’s put out there. So this [00:59:35] is a you problem and you may justify the you problem by inflicting and projecting on me. [00:59:40] And the thing is, I’m really good at the self reflection as well, because as Sophie was saying, when I catch [00:59:45] myself being triggered, I’m like, why am I triggered? You know, why am I triggered by that? [00:59:50] Oh, okay, I must be going through something for this reason, and I’ve got to stop. I’ve [00:59:55] got to stop myself in my tracks. Also, I’ve got enough self-awareness to know that if something [01:00:00] is triggering me, I don’t need to troll them or comment on it just to make them feel bad. To make myself feel better, [01:00:05] I will just mute the story or the post.

Speaker4: You know, there’s a positive side and a [01:00:10] negative side to everything. Yeah. And so the positive side of this thing that we’re [01:00:15] talking about is like empathy. Yeah. If you feel things [01:00:20] yeah you’ll feel bad things as well. Whereas men don’t do this because we just don’t [01:00:25] have that level of, you know, the wave going so high and so low. Sure. We’re just we’re just not feeling [01:00:30] much at all. Yeah, yeah. Feelings. Not our thing. Sure. Yeah. So maybe, maybe that’s that. But what I’m saying is [01:00:35] like because I see it in my daughter, you know, the 13. Yeah. I can see what I’m saying is [01:00:40] part of being a woman. Yeah. To have these things. And of course, [01:00:45] it shouldn’t be toxic. We should know it about ourselves. And what you said there was just beautiful, [01:00:50] the self-awareness of where is this coming from? And recognising that it’s coming from [01:00:55] a place of jealousy or or self-pity is a beautiful, beautiful way of [01:01:00] looking at it. Because you’re right. I don’t think there’s many people who don’t know, you know, just with anger, let’s say.

Speaker3: And [01:01:05] Sophie, do you feel ever pressure to talk about things [01:01:10] online? Because I think with the rise of influencers, we know that they have more weight and gravitas [01:01:15] even than certain celebrities. Um, again, we had another content creator on [01:01:20] the, um, on this platform before, and he had said, you know, like, actually most people now, [01:01:25] like, young people say that they’re people they aspire to be like or people they look up to [01:01:30] are actually content creators, which is great because I think you have the you have the ability [01:01:35] to change the narrative. But do you feel that you have to now talk about [01:01:40] every single kind of relevant issue, or do you feel that you’re pressured by your [01:01:45] audience to do so? I definitely feel.

Speaker1: Like it can be a lot of pressure. I if certain things happen, [01:01:50] I will sometimes be have people be like, oh, have you not seen about this? Have you not seen it? Like, [01:01:55] why haven’t you posted about this? And you can get a lot of pressure. But the thing is, for me, I speak about the things [01:02:00] that I’m knowledgeable about and also that I’m passionate about. And also I think people do forget [01:02:05] that creators are we’re not [01:02:10] news outlets. We’re not. And also, like, we don’t have the facilities to fact [01:02:15] check everything. And there is so much misinformation that spreads online these days. And I’ve seen so [01:02:20] many influencers post misinformation recently and like it actually is really [01:02:25] harmful. And it’s once again, this, this, this is all about like conflicting issues because [01:02:30] it’s like, I feel like there should be if you speak about something, you [01:02:35] should probably speak about things, but then also at the same time, you have the right to not speak about [01:02:40] it like it’s at the end of the day. Yes, influencers have a lot of power, [01:02:45] but what? That power can be really severely misdirected and sharing the wrong thing. [01:02:50]

Speaker3: I think there’s responsibility, which is what you’re saying, and people don’t recognise that whilst their [01:02:55] platforms carry weight and gravitas, there comes responsibility with that. And like [01:03:00] you said, if you post something that’s incorrect, it can cause more damage than good [01:03:05] and you can actually cause more harm to people. So I think that that comes that recognition and [01:03:10] I think, you know, I probably don’t get it as much as you, but I still get a lot of pressure. Rona post. This [01:03:15] Rona post is saying sometimes they want me to post about something so random in a country I haven’t even heard [01:03:20] of. Do you know what I mean? I’m like, listen, guys like and I hate. I don’t like people dictating [01:03:25] what I should and shouldn’t be posting. I consider myself to be a fair and humanitarian person. [01:03:30] But also my stance is, is that as a medical professional, I have responsibility [01:03:35] and I’ve undertaken an oath. So the way that I provide information should [01:03:40] always be somewhat fair. Does that make sense? And that’s why I like to think to myself. And it’s funny because then I get people [01:03:45] be like, you’re too neutral on this. Yeah. You’re not taking enough of a stand. Yeah. And I’m like, [01:03:50] no, hang on a second. You know, if you’re an intelligent person, you can kind of read between the lines. But just because I’m not saying [01:03:55] like this. Person is awful or this is this. You know, it doesn’t mean that [01:04:00] I’m not, you know, drawing attention. But as you said, I’ll only put out stuff that I know with [01:04:05] confidence is true.

Speaker1: Yeah, I’m completely with you on that. And I feel I also, you [01:04:10] know what, me being the kind of, like, positive person that I am, and I try and always look for the good in people. I [01:04:15] think there’s two I think there’s two sides of looking at it. I think, you know, you touched on virtue signalling earlier. [01:04:20] I think there is an element of virtue signalling, signalling in it and that can come from some [01:04:25] people. I do also think that sometimes it comes from a frustration, [01:04:30] whereas you might have somebody who has 20 followers on Instagram who works a very regular [01:04:35] job and feels very, you know, there’s something going on and they want to be able [01:04:40] to talk about it. And they’re they’re looking at me being like, why is she not speaking about this? Or if I had that [01:04:45] platform, I would, and they feel quite helpless. So it’s almost them. They’re kind of directing their [01:04:50] feelings of helplessness and frustration out on, on me and other content creators [01:04:55] for not talking about it, and that I feel like quite obviously like forgiving and understanding of like I get [01:05:00] that like so I always try and be understanding of it. But I do feel like sometimes virtue signalling [01:05:05] can come into it. But either way, I always try and post as much as I can about things that I understand [01:05:10] and that I’m aware about, but there are limits to it. And also, I do [01:05:15] feel like at the end of the day, content creators, you can’t do your job like it’s [01:05:20] not necessarily your job to share these things. It’s not. And also like you’ve got to kind [01:05:25] of put yourself first because we are individuals. And if you’re not operating okay up here for yourself, [01:05:30] you’re not going to be able to like do anything else that you’re going to start falling apart. So you do always have to put yourself [01:05:35] first. So it’s a real it’s a real difficult one. I feel really conflicted a lot of times with these things.

Speaker4: What [01:05:40] about when I mean, you’re a fashion influencer. Yeah. What about when the issue is within fashion? [01:05:45] Then do you not feel like there in that situation you have to say where you stand [01:05:50] on it? I mean, there was that thing with I don’t know. Yeah. Such a question or something.

Speaker3: Yeah. Like with Balenciaga [01:05:55] or even like environmental issues. Yeah.

Speaker1: So I you know what, if anything, it’s harder to speak [01:06:00] about it when it’s fashion because at the end of the day, my brand partnerships are with brands. So it’s like as a, as [01:06:05] a essentially like an advertiser. I have to be very careful with what I say, unless [01:06:10] it’s something obviously really bad. But you have to sort of maybe stay kind of relatively neutral [01:06:15] because you’ve got to otherwise if you’re if you’re there, like speaking really critically about a lot [01:06:20] of things, you’re not going to be good for business. It’s not good for it’s not it’s not good for if it’s obviously something that I [01:06:25] really care about. I would like the Balenciaga thing. I spoke a bit about that, but my my perspective [01:06:30] on that was just like, I just felt really like it was really bad, but I felt I just felt bad for [01:06:35] the people who had spent a lot of money and like on the designers and people who weren’t necessarily rich but had [01:06:40] saved up money to buy things. And then now they felt like, you know, their items [01:06:45] felt worthless and they felt like they, you know, dirty wearing these things, like, you know, these girls who’d [01:06:50] spent all their money on their triple S trainers and their like bags and they were like, I can’t wear it now because [01:06:55] of all the controversy.

Speaker1: And I was just like, it’s stuff like that. It’s not fair. So I kind of if I’m going to speak on those issues, [01:07:00] I’ll kind of speak about, I feel like there has to be [01:07:05] some kind of like balance. Yeah, balance to it, definitely. But then I feel like that with a lot of things sometimes [01:07:10] I’ve kind of thought about things a bit more recently and been like, I have to make sure I kind of stay [01:07:15] relatively brand safe in a way, because I don’t want to ever put myself in a situation. [01:07:20] I want to be able to stand up for the things that I care about, and I will always do that. But also sometimes it’s like, and [01:07:25] this goes across the board, whether it’s issues that I’m talking about or even just making a joke about something, [01:07:30] I’m like, I have to actually remember, I have a platform and like people see what I do and that means [01:07:35] brands. It means possible business. So like, you know, you have to be you have to really think about what [01:07:40] you’re putting out there.

Speaker3: So you know what? Sorry, from a Dental medical point of view, like recently [01:07:45] I went I got invited as a plus one with one of my friends as a content creator. She took me to an event and [01:07:50] then she was like, oh my God, there’s this girl here. She’s really awful. And I was like, okay, what’s she done? She was like, she’s the kind of person [01:07:55] that got all this free skin laser treatment because she’s got acne at this clinic and then, like, did [01:08:00] her whole journey. And then she went and slated the clinic really badly. And then she was like. And then [01:08:05] was like, oh, guys, I started a new clinic. Follow my journey. It was really transparent. It was also really [01:08:10] bad because obviously people got really angry because they were like, you’re ruining like another, a small person’s [01:08:15] business, basically. And I was like, it’s really hard because, you know, like now with the [01:08:20] type of partnerships as we know, like where like people will go and like review treatments for free, [01:08:25] right? But then you don’t know, like, but then say they do have a bad experience in a way, they [01:08:30] want to be honest with their audience. But there’s a fine line, right? But then you don’t want to ruin that small [01:08:35] person’s business. And also you want to make sure that you’re doing it in a way that’s like fair. [01:08:40] Do you know what I mean? But like you said, she did a disservice to herself because loads of people didn’t [01:08:45] want to work with her after that because they were like, if you can go and do that because I think it was the way she did it. [01:08:50]

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s quite funny because you know what? It’s the way you do. It does really, really matter. [01:08:55] And like on that. One of the place that I go and get my hair done at. They’re amazing. They do [01:09:00] incredible hair extensions, and they were one of one of the women who works the salon were like, oh yeah, we were a little bit scared to work [01:09:05] with you because you’re so honest about everything. We were like, if we mess up her hair, she’s gonna drag us online and then no one [01:09:10] will come to us. And I was like, ah, oh. I was like, I don’t know if that’s a good thing for people to [01:09:15] think about me.

Speaker3: No, you know, I mean, I think that you’re always fair because I’ve never seen you, [01:09:20] like, really sort of slay any of the services. I know that you’ve also like, you know, you had an experience [01:09:25] also with threads, for example. And I think, you know, you were you were honest, but also you didn’t drag [01:09:30] it out and out and out, you know.

Speaker1: And I never named the clinic. I never named the clinic publicly either. That did it because [01:09:35] I was like, I don’t actually know legally, like where this leaves me. And they did. They still threatened me with legal action. Yeah, they still [01:09:40] they still were like, we’re gonna we’re gonna, like, get our lawyers involved. And like, I expect to hear from our lawyer. And I was like, I’ve [01:09:45] never named you publicly, so I don’t know what you’re expecting to do. Yeah. [01:09:50] So, yeah, it’s just crazy.

Speaker3: So, Sophie, we could speak for ages. [01:09:55] I know, because you’re such a diverse, interesting person. I’m so grateful you could come today. [01:10:00] What I want to ask you as a closing is, you know, what does the future hold? You know, for you, [01:10:05] I know we should always be present, and that’s so important. But really, you know, what’s the sort of [01:10:10] the plan for the next year? Where will we be seeing Sophie? Tell us a little bit about your current adventure. [01:10:15] That’s what I’m trying to lead on to as well. Yeah.

Speaker1: So I recently launched a bit, launched a business [01:10:20] called New Cycle Society, and it’s this business for women to in their [01:10:25] late 20s, all the way through their 30s to make friends in London and do cool things and events [01:10:30] and stuff like that. And we do everything from we went out for like a really kind of like a boozy, bottomless dinner [01:10:35] on Saturday night, which was fun. I don’t even drink anymore, really. So that was interesting. And, [01:10:40] um, you know, even a big formula One fan. So we do formula one watch parties. We do like we [01:10:45] do so many things, like just like Pilates classes, like, you know, candle making. We’ve got like, you know, [01:10:50] a live country music night coming up. There’s about around about two events per week at the [01:10:55] moment. So it’s a lot uh, and the community is amazing. There’s around [01:11:00] like maybe 320 members at the moment, and it’s only been running for around 6 [01:11:05] to 7 weeks, which is incredible. Congratulations. Yeah, it’s really good. And everyone who comes to [01:11:10] it, it’s amazing. And I’ve got some really good feedback at the dinner at the weekend. The girls who were the women that were there, they [01:11:15] said a few of them were like, oh, I’ve been to other things like this. And kind of essentially, I guess, your competitors. But [01:11:20] the people were a little bit, a bit weird or I didn’t really get on with the people there, but everyone [01:11:25] at my events has got on almost like they’ve been friends for. It’s almost been like, it’s like they’re connecting [01:11:30] with old friends from years ago. And one of them pointed out they’re like, but it’s because most of them have come [01:11:35] to this through following you, so they share your values. Yeah. So that’s why instantly they have this connection. We have [01:11:40] this connection. Is it women only. It’s it’s yeah, it’s women only. It was going to be open.

Speaker3: She’s gonna pivot. [01:11:45] We talked about that.

Speaker1: No we were it was going to be open to to to men as well. But then like when I launched, [01:11:50] all the women were like, nah, I like the sisterhood. We like the community of women. So it’s [01:11:55] like, ah, okay. This is like, okay. I guess it makes it easier in terms of marketing. But you know. [01:12:00] So yeah, but it’s amazing. It it’s really great. So, uh, it just kind of building that building the community. [01:12:05] I would love to branch out in other places, but it’s currently entirely [01:12:10] self-funded by me and like, ran entirely by me, so I can’t I can’t [01:12:15] really be in like, multiple cities at once without getting investment and [01:12:20] people to help me in other countries, there’s been a big, big call for like bringing it to Dubai. [01:12:25] Dubai and Sydney are like the places to the top two places. People are like, please bring it to Dubai and Sydney. [01:12:30] Yeah, but I don’t know who knows what next year will hold.

Speaker3: Blue Sky thinking it’s gonna happen.

Speaker1: No, I’m just like, you [01:12:35] know what? Whatever. If it happens, it happens. And I’m also bringing out my own, like, clothing line in collaboration [01:12:40] with a company called Label Rail, which I designed with some designers, which is going to be really [01:12:45] cool, amazing. So that’s going to be coming out early next year. So loads of exciting things. Amazing. It’s just lots of [01:12:50] cool.

Speaker3: Watch this space Sophie Milner is the one. Yeah, but thank you so much for sharing [01:12:55] your insights. As I said, Sophie’s been a beacon for me throughout my social media [01:13:00] journey and like speaks out on most issues. I’m like, I was thinking that I couldn’t articulate [01:13:05] myself. So I really appreciate it. And I’m sure you provided a lot of insights for a lot of people.

Speaker1: Oh, guys, [01:13:10] thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. Take care. Thank you.