Category: Podcast

[00:00:00] So there was two life events around that time that that really hit home to me. There’s a road in Doncaster where all the car garages are on and mum took me up there one day and she said, Look, if you don’t start working, you’ll be driving up and down this road and you will not be able to go into any of these car garages and buy it. The car that you want. Will just go up and down, and you will not be able to go inside and afford something. If you not working, you can go inside any of these car garages and buy what you want.

[00:00:28] That was one life event, and then

[00:00:30] I’m not sure what we’re talking first. But then that also said, Look,

[00:00:34] I’ve got money. You haven’t got a penny.

[00:00:36] If you don’t start working, you will have nothing. So those were the pretty much the two life events that really gave me the kick of the backside that I needed to start to work.

[00:00:51] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:08] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Professor Hussein onto the podcast. Afsar has been dominating in Doncaster with a couple of practises. He’s achieved a very high level of Invisalign Dental implants, facial aesthetics, Doncaster not really the in my experience, the kind of town where you would expect this sort of high end treatment to take off. See as officers worked out a nice way of, you know, capitalising in that market. So we usually start these things by talking about the backstory your Doncaster born and bred, but that’s about your childhood, about, you know, when did dentistry first come onto your radar? What kind of a kid were you? That sort of thing.

[00:01:56] I’d like to think I was a good kid, but by my report to say otherwise, really, I was a pretty average student. You know, CS and DS and BS.

[00:02:06] All my reports said if

[00:02:08] I tried harder, he could be something. Or if I have to try tried harder, you get better grades. Movies come home crying after every single parent evening. So I was always one of those kids where,

[00:02:21] Yeah,

[00:02:21] I was I was quite naughty. Actually, it wasn’t until I got to make, you know, 15, 16 years old where I started to settle down

[00:02:28] And thinking, You know,

[00:02:30] I probably should stop trying to work because I need to, you know, get get somewhere in life. So that’s a dentist. That’s a dentist. Yeah, that’s a dentist. So, yeah, he has a practise in Doncaster after.

[00:02:44] Were you always going to be a dentist? Was that always the plan?

[00:02:47] I think what I was growing up, obviously with the Asian community, we know there’s our doctors and dentists around, and obviously I saw my dad and I saw my other friends, parents who were GP’s and doctors. And it’s probably thinking and I’m like, I kind of like the lifestyle that we have. You know, dad always pick me up from school. He was always at my place and always at my sports events, you know, never was on corny nights. And I think, you know, I kind of like that, you know, children, lifestyle. He was never, you know, it was always home with me. If I need something, he was always there. You know, work never got in the way of, you know, anything like that.

[00:03:26] So I kind of wanted, you know,

[00:03:29] That sort of more chilled out lifestyle I could, you know, I could dictate where I wanted to do really.

[00:03:35] So I’m quite interested in, you know, someone who’s come from that background of dentistry. What was dentistry actually like compared to what you thought it was going to be like, you know, observing your dad?

[00:03:47] I thought it would be easier

[00:03:50] Than it is.

[00:03:52] I thought, you know, you could just do whatever you want to do, whether you want to survive that.

[00:03:56] But that obviously

[00:03:57] Did turn out to be case. But yeah, it does take a lot of hard work

[00:04:00] In that that

[00:04:01] Did work kind because he’s had his own practise for a while. So now I’m kind of experiencing what he actually went through with, you know, dentists, patients, staff running practise management practise. So yeah, the the reality quickly dawned on me that it’s not all, you

[00:04:19] Know, easy,

[00:04:20] Easy life, easy money. It takes, you know, a lot of work, you know, work starts when you wake up and work finishes when you go to sleep.

[00:04:29] Going back to when you were growing up and you say you see your DS bit of a naughty kid or whatever based on your report, did you kind of know you could just pull it out of the bag when you were 15 and 16 and just switch it up a gear? What happened around that time?

[00:04:43] So there was two life events around that time that that really hit home to me. There’s a road in Doncaster where all the car garages are on, and mum took me up there one day and she said, Look, if you don’t start working, you’ll be driving up and down this road and you will not be able to go into any of these car garages and buy the car that you want to just go up and down, and you will not be able to go inside and afford something. If you start working, you can go inside any of these car garages and buy what you want something that was one life event. And then I’m not sure what we’re talking first. But then that also said,

[00:05:16] Look, I’ve got

[00:05:17] Money that

[00:05:18] You haven’t got a penny.

[00:05:19] If you don’t start working, you will have nothing. So those were the pretty much the two life events that really gave me the kick of the backside that I needed to start to work. But life wasn’t easy in the sense that

[00:05:32] I couldn’t just, you know,

[00:05:34] Shape up and turn up because I’ve not I wouldn’t say I’m really Booksmart. So I did just miss out very marginally on my ability to get into Dental for first time, so I did have to do a reset. So I took a gap year, worked hard and then reset and then got into Newcastle University second time round. So then, yes, I had to take a year out to basically work hard and study. I got a job over at Staples, you know, working and then. Wow study and then got in second time around.

[00:06:05] What was the car that inspired you to say, I’m going to drive that car when,

[00:06:12] When I can? So on my wall, I had a picture of

[00:06:16] A Ferrari F430 and that was

[00:06:20] That was that was a car basically that, you know, that was, you know,

[00:06:23] Every every every guy’s everybody’s got a car in his bedroom wall and that was the kind that I had the Ferrari F430. So that’s the kind of that’s what drew me to. Well, what about drive? I’m quite I’m quite blessed. So I’m quite blessed now. I’ve got a few cars. What few track cars, a few supercars, so. So what do

[00:06:47] You drive now? Do you drive a Ferrari?

[00:06:49] Yeah, I do.

[00:06:50] Amazing. So you actually got your girl? Very good. Nice. Well done. So yeah, so we make, you know, we make goals for ourselves. And, you know, I’ve some thought in my life that, you know, if I get such and such, I’ll be happy. And then you never it never actually lives up to that, is it? Especially not with things, sometimes with the experiences. But you know, now that you’ve got that Ferrari that you dream so much about, does that sort of sort of take away from your motivation to keep on doing more things?

[00:07:22] Yeah, I was quite fortunate to a few years ago, be able to buy a Ferrari. And then after

[00:07:26] That, you don’t

[00:07:27] Get bored of it, but you kind of realise that you have achieved that. I’ve done it. And so I needed some sort of new motivation, new motivation. So nowadays it’s just, you know, building my practise and because my practise is my baby. So I’d like to see it develop like to see it, just be able to get better and better off a wider range of treatments and formula.

[00:07:47] That’s, you know, good clinicians, good stuff.

[00:07:50] And that’s that’s what makes me happy.

[00:07:52] Do you see those things as almost like rewards for achieving what you’ve achieved and doing really well? And the reason I’m bringing this up is, is my brother, right? He’s a Colima car guy or whatever a thin guy, right? But you know, without without putting too fine a point on it, right? He sees these as almost like milestones of rewards for the hard work, the effort, the energy, everything that he’s put into it. It’s just like a treat to himself. Yeah. Is that how you see sort of the cars, the truck cars, the sports cars and things like that, almost like a reward to yourself to say, Hey, you know, I was going down that road in Doncaster one day and I’ve proved it to myself now.

[00:08:35] Yes, I think I think definitely like, you know, I’ve been qualified 11 years now. So, you know, about eight years ago, I thought, you know, life’s good. I mean, I’ve got a decent cup, but you know, I could definitely never, ever, ever afford a Ferrari or fodder, you know, something like that

[00:08:53] What these other dentists drive

[00:08:54] And then. But no, I kept plugging away, kept working hard and then saving up and developing my business. And then all of a sudden, you know, I found myself in a position where I could do it. So that was, you know, quite a good milestone, really. Where yeah, because right, you know, I’ve achieved what I wanted to achieve all those years ago. But then I didn’t want more, but I wanted to achieve something else. Mm-hmm. So I’ve got to another milestone now where

[00:09:21] I can probably just

[00:09:23] Start relaxing a bit and not working so hard because I’ve got, you know, five or six associates. I kind

[00:09:29] Of do the kind of work

[00:09:30] That I want. So I’ve cut down my NHS work and started to do a lot more Prav work, a lot more implant work. We do a lot of investment. So all this stuff that I enjoy, I really enjoy facial aesthetics. So I’ve got into a phase of life where I’m doing what I want to do with the I’m doing all the dentistry and aesthetic work that I want to do, and I kind of don’t do what I don’t feel comfortable doing, like fillings and things like that. I kind of grown away from that sort of work and go on to the Invisalign and facial prosthetics and implants of work now.

[00:10:06] And it’s there. Is there another milestone that you’re looking at ahead of yourself? You know, sometimes I speak to either a lot of my clients or friends, right? And often we look ahead of ourselves and we think, Crikey, I’m just x amount away from there. Whether it’s a financial target, whether it’s it’s a thing or whether it’s a business milestone. And often we’re looking at that gap that’s in front of us. But sometimes we forget about how what we’ve achieved, which is the gain that’s sat below us. What is that gap for you? You know, the next step, the next milestone, what you want to achieve. Is it more of a work life balance thing? You know, it looks like you’ve achieved the pick your battles in terms of dentistry and pick and choose the type of patient you want to achieve. Is there something else ahead of you now in terms of what you what you’re striving towards?

[00:10:54] Yeah. So my life has kind of been crazy up until last year where I’ve been working long hours, you know, literally 12. Thirteen hours a day for, you know, for six days a week, and currently we’ve got a couple of projects going on, we’re extending the practise to add on a few more surgeries. We’re currently renovating the other practise to become more of a, you know, like a hopeless visual aesthetics

[00:11:16] And more complex

[00:11:18] Work. So that’s

[00:11:20] The milestone for

[00:11:21] Me. Next is to get all those completed and get all the chairs filled. But I think this year I’ve also had a lot more of a I know it’s really January right now, but I’ve never had more of a work life balance, which is what I wanted to achieve because for the last 10 years, it’s literally has been work, work, work, and now I’ve just started to like, calm down a bit and say, you know, my kids are actually grown up and I need to start being

[00:11:46] There for, you

[00:11:47] Know, more for them. So I’m spending a lot more time with the wife. I spend a lot of time more, a lot more time with the children, you know, going to see the place doing the school runs, which I never did before picking them up. So, you know, I’m enjoying

[00:12:00] And really enjoying that aspect

[00:12:02] Of it at the minute. So I’m taking a bit more of a backseat role in my practise. Now I’ve got a good team. I’ve got two really fantastic practise managers who can oversee everything and make sure that the practises don’t be so happy and I can take a bit

[00:12:17] More of a step back. And you know, for

[00:12:19] Me right now, it’s all about Work-Life Balance now.

[00:12:22] That’s lovely. And me and Piers spoke about this even with with guests in the past that, you know, we can look at this work life balance doing those 14 to 16 hour days. I’m putting that grafted and something has to give right, whether it’s that, you know, missing out on part of the kids situation, right? Or those situations where children are two and go, why you never hear daddy or there’ll be little conversations that happen that kind of pull on your heartstrings. But you know what? You just crack on and do what you’ve got to do because you’re a man on a mission, right? And then you get to a point like where you are today, where you can talk back in. Have you ever been any conversations like that that you’ve had with your kids?

[00:13:03] Definitely. Definitely. So. Two months ago,

[00:13:05] I came home and it must have been around 6:30 in the evening, something like that. And one of my kids said to my wife, I was just in the car pulling up. So she told me afterwards. But one of the kids told my wife that, Oh, that’s human. We’ve not even started eating dinner yet. So which basically kind of means that I’m always home after they

[00:13:26] Finish eating dinner,

[00:13:27] Or I’ll get home when they lie in bed trying to go to sleep. So there’s been multiple occasions over the last couple years where the kids have just kind of said that, you know, I’m home early because I’m eating dinner with them or I’m, you know, playing with them just before bedtime. So, you know, work wise. My wife

[00:13:46] Was getting worse

[00:13:47] And worse as the years went by because the practises were getting busier, so work was very good. But then my home life started to suffer like that. So and I kept saying to my wife, You know, I’ll get better or get better or we get better, you know, I’m, you know, I’ll be able to cut down and cut down. But as things got better, the practises, we got busier

[00:14:08] And busier, you know, through

[00:14:09] Word of mouth, and

[00:14:11] There wasn’t

[00:14:11] Just any given in the system for me to slow down.

[00:14:14] Do you think sometimes that perhaps on occasion, that’s a positive example for your children? Because, you know, I look at my dad when I was growing up right, and it was all gruff, gruff graft. He didn’t have time to play with those kids, right? But he taught was the art of graft and the value of hard work. Payman brings this point all the time. It brings us all the time and says, Actually, don’t beat yourself up about it, Prav, because you’re setting an example for your children and they’re learning by what they see and what they witness day to day. Ok, dads occasionally holds the dinner, but is working bloody hard, is not out partying, is he? Or, you know, he’s down at the local boozer or watching football or something like that, right? He’s out working hard and they see that as a big sample. But your thoughts on

[00:15:00] With no matter is never that, that

[00:15:02] Actually that was a

[00:15:05] I’m content with what what he had. So he has a what it was like a one to one to two serve practise, and he’s never had the drive or, you know, the

[00:15:16] He never wanted to make it

[00:15:17] Grow. He was happy to content with his with him and one of the associate, maybe a hygienist one, you know, one day a week. It was always fun for lunch.

[00:15:27] So, you know, he

[00:15:28] Always came home for two miles away from home. So and he was always

[00:15:32] Home,

[00:15:33] You know, 5:30, five, 5:30 at home. So and eventually, you know, we had a comfortable life. We had nice cars. We always went on holiday. You know, he had a great work-life balance. But, you know, I guess you just had no desire to, you know, expand his practise.

[00:15:49] So sometimes we kind of are the same as our parents and then sometimes we’re the exact opposite of our parents. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Did you always have that plan? Did you look at your dad and think, Well, I’m when I become a dentist, I’m going to have multiple practises? Or, you know, was this a planned out thing? Did you know years ago that you were going to do that or not?

[00:16:09] So what I was, you know, growing up when I was 17, 18, when I was in Dental school, I always wanted a big practise,

[00:16:17] You know, five

[00:16:18] Six surgeries. I thought I was advising myself having one practise, five six surgeries

[00:16:22] And you know that be that.

[00:16:24] So as I started a period before this one surgery practise came up after eight as an associate, and that was, I think you should buy it. And I’m like, No, you know, it’s got a very smart contract. It’s wonderful to practise,

[00:16:38] You know, seeing 100

[00:16:39] Percent don’t really work. You know, that’s kind of, you know, the mentality.

[00:16:44] So I can’t

[00:16:45] Do anything with, I can’t expand it. It’s can be too difficult. It’s just a way somebody I’d rather just wait for something bigger to come up that I was like, No, no, no, no, you should definitely have a look into it. So after most discussions, after much deliberation, I ended up buying this practise and it was one of those, you know, rundown onesies practises where, you know, wallpaper on the walls. And it was just very rundown and very, you know, it’s not been touched for 25 years, really. And then a few words then I’m like, What would I have taken like a 50 percent pay cut on what I was, what I was earning? And I need you to live with this practise, realise that it’s just going to, you know, bankrupt me and I’m just not going to enjoy my life. So then I started to think about ways to develop it and you got developed, you know, developed started to increase the turnover.

[00:17:32] So what do you do?

[00:17:34] What? What did I do? So when I bought it, it was a hundred percent NHS, so there was no private work offered you or they’re owed or if you did this, Udas and he just, you know, whatever, basically. So I started offering, you know, whitening crowns, veneers, you know, all the all the little private add ons, composites, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s how it kind of grew.

[00:17:57] And then when you existing patients, yeah, yes.

[00:17:59] I went to the existing patients and then through word of mouth, did did more patients come? And then I started to do facial prosthetics, which obviously added support to that. And then the next practise came up for sale. So I thought, OK, this is a great opportunity. So I bought that or that was not a single surgery practise, no next door. So then I did some better work and enjoyed those two practises together to create a three surgery practise. And then things just got better and better, better. We started to get into Invisalign and composite bonding and, you know, more and more cosmetic work. We’ve got a couple therapists on board as well, and that it just it just grew, grew and grew. You know,

[00:18:39] After you set up your practise pretty soon after VTi, you know, it’s not a joking matter, sort of eight months after vet to start a practise. And you know, it’s obviously gone very well now, but they’ll take us through some of the mistakes that you made along the way, things you would have done differently. So anything you would done differently.

[00:18:58] Mm-hmm. So mistakes that are made or made plenty of mistakes, you know, I’m sure we’ve all been there riveted, you know, to through crowds and we’ve know off some good pat on the back. And then they’ve come back six months later, a year later, with one of them fractured.

[00:19:13] And what about from the business point of view,

[00:19:16] From the business point of view? Mistakes wise, I’ve hired. You know, staff or associates

[00:19:22] Or whoever who haven’t really

[00:19:24] Had the same philosophy as, you know, as I’ve had, so, you know, we’ve not really

[00:19:29] Gone and you know,

[00:19:31] You know, you could see that as a as a bit of a mistake. Mistakes wise, well, sort of.

[00:19:36] I thought you talk about growing the business word of mouth, but you know, what was it about those early patients? What were the early tactics that you used or how did you treat those early patients differently to get the word of mouth because you’ve always done something right to grow practises so quickly?

[00:19:52] So there’s two distinct patients where I can

[00:19:55] Remember doing

[00:19:56] Work and then then personally

[00:19:58] Over Facebook and

[00:20:00] Instagram, and it just going crazy from there. They weren’t influencers. They weren’t, you know, some celebrities, they were literally one person was a semi-permanent makeup artist near me and the other person who was she did nails. So, yeah, I gave one of them some composite bonding. And then the other one had in mind that composite bonding.

[00:20:21] And then literally just from those two, there

[00:20:24] Were probably a few years apart. It just went viral. It just went crazy.

[00:20:28] And so interesting. You know, Prav, you remember we talked to Payman Sobhani and he said his whole business was built on one patient, one Qatari patient. And the difference that that, you know, one or two patients can make, especially in this day and age, it’s really interesting to see that, you know, at the beginning, you need spend time treat people really well. You’ve got the time to treat people well. You never know. One or two patients can make the difference. So interesting.

[00:20:56] Yeah, totally. Ed, I I can think clearly about these two, and I think it’s it’s all hinges on these two patients that we treated.

[00:21:05] And it just went crazy.

[00:21:07] And so and you know, there were there were influences. There weren’t celebrities, there weren’t royalty. There were just, you know. Yes, definitely.

[00:21:16] They yeah. So I’ve got a couple of questions because I often get people booking calls with me 100 percent NHS, right. And the first thing they say is, look, I’m doing 100 percent NHS. I want to start private, OK? So the first thing I advise them to do is they need to cut the cord with the NHS in any way, shape or form, whether that’s wholly an associate to take some of that slack, to make it so it can free them up to do the private right. That bit they really struggle with, right, emotionally, physically, mentally because they feel a degree of loyalty to those patients whose check-ups they’ve been doing. And they and their rebuttal to me, when I say that is this they won’t go to anyone else, right? So I want to learn how you switched pivoted from that. And then the next thing is, you know, pay mentioned, you know, you’ve got apex Invisalign, right? That’s no joke, right? This practise isn’t businesses out there who are saying, Hey, we’ll take you to apex in 12 months or whatever, right? We’ll show you the secret sauce. I want to know what your secret sauce was in getting it going from from, you know, two patients, one of whom you did Invisalign. And now you know, you do it pretty much as much as the biggest players in the

[00:22:29] Apex just means that you in the top one percent of design providers in Europe.

[00:22:35] Just just yeah, yes.

[00:22:38] How many Invisalign cases do you actually do a month?

[00:22:41] We, I think we do about 30 or 40 a month new ones.

[00:22:46] Absolutely. You mentioned you had some practise managers. What’s the relationship with them? What are they responsible for? And you know what you do? Do you have a meeting a week with each of those or how does it work? How do you run it?

[00:22:57] See, this is the thing I I had no idea because, well, let me go back to Prav questions. First of all, so and then we’ll then we’ll come on to that. So I’m literally now going through the phase of,

[00:23:10] You know,

[00:23:11] Let’s say, giving up my own NHS patients, which I’ve treated it for 10 years to other associates and recruiting new associates to do it. And it’s still, you know what I see my patient

[00:23:22] Went through, but to me,

[00:23:24] It just, you know, I get that that feeling said, you know, I want to go say hi to them. I want to say, Hi, how’s life?

[00:23:31] How’s work? Because it’s even

[00:23:33] Now. It’s hard for me to see that patient, which we really are. That patient’s not seeing me, you know, like all my patients, they’re all really nice patients. So it is. I get it. That’s really hard to give up that sort

[00:23:44] Of those

[00:23:45] Patients because, yeah, because you’ve got that good relationship with them. And I’m quite, I mean, quite an affluent area. So it’s not it’s not a high area. So you develop is quite high.

[00:23:55] And so the associates

[00:23:56] Get paid a good, you do it as well. So yeah, so that is how I try

[00:24:00] To put the bit

[00:24:02] Aside and go more towards the private

[00:24:04] So. So the conundrum here is the let’s say you’ve got eight hours in a day and I know you’ve got 16, but let’s say you only had eight, right? Yeah. And in those eight hours, you have literally got your hands in an NHS patients spouse. Yes. Seven. Point, nine hours of that day, but you need to free up four hours of that day to do to start delivering your apex dentistry. Yeah. What do you do with those four hours of patients? What’s your what what’s what’s the communication that has been sent to those patients to say, Afsar can’t see you anymore or is that how you deal with it goes from eight to 16 hours.

[00:24:43] So the way that we’ve dealt with it is that we’ve obviously we’ve had new associates to really tell these patients that, you know, you don’t see after today

[00:24:52] Or really, really going to be,

[00:24:53] See, you know, this is a date. So some of them are OK with it. Some of them are not OK with it. So I have seen a few. I’ve seen a few patients on VHS, but the vast majority, I’ve kind of, you know, passing to two different dentists. But yeah, so that’s how we’ve done it. We’ve just explained to them that, you know, that my eye is a bit

[00:25:17] Focussing

[00:25:18] On this side of the true

[00:25:19] Eye that

[00:25:20] Decided dentistry. So most of the care that person will understand that. But I do go out in the kitchen and say hi to them and you know, so and I think the correct comforted knowing that I’m around still that I’m still in the building. So, you know, if they need me, they know exactly where I am.

[00:25:37] So what did you find these practise managers? Were they people who, you know, work for you and you sort of elevated them up into that role? Or did you advertise for them and ask around, how did you find them?

[00:25:47] Yeah. So I’ve got to execute practise matches.

[00:25:51] So is there an element of performance related compensation and you know, bonuses are the managers particularly are they are they the ones who get bonuses or does everyone?

[00:26:01] So yeah, so. So we do have we do give bonuses. We do give. I got to give generous bonuses because my staff all work hard. You know, we are very busy. They all work hard. And, you know, they’re great, I think, and they do get bonuses and they do get incentives if we do hit certain targets. So, yeah, I’m very big on, you know, rewarding staff. Just, you know, for me to give your example,

[00:26:27] Must

[00:26:29] Not last year, the year before for Christmas. I want more, more and more big handbags for, you know, for the bonuses. So, you know, it’s just nice to look after them. And because, you know, they really do have to be,

[00:26:40] You know, they, you

[00:26:41] Know, they buy me lunch, they make sure that I’ve got, you know, coffee and, you know, I’m well looked after.

[00:26:47] So, so other managers also responsible for the, you know, the hiring and firing on the non-clinical team.

[00:26:55] If we need extra members of staff, the practise managers will come to me and say, you know, I think we need to take on an actual member of staff, whether it be a nurse receptionist or we, you know, we to a place where someone is leaving.

[00:27:06] So they kind of put the

[00:27:08] Ad out and then we interview them together. But ultimately, I’d like to give them control. You know, the decision? The decision is yours. Who do you want to take on and for what reasons? And then we can have some sort of agreement. So yeah, they so they kind of do the hiring and the firing, let’s say,

[00:27:25] What are you looking for in associates?

[00:27:28] So an associate, I’m looking for someone with great work ethic. I think having a portfolio is, you

[00:27:34] Know, a very good thing to have.

[00:27:36] And that’s pretty much where I look for in this area because obviously in an interview, you can’t really get to grips with

[00:27:43] How they

[00:27:44] Are with patients and how they are with, you know, others because there’s very little you can ascertain

[00:27:49] From a 10 or 15

[00:27:50] Minute interview because these warheads are desolate. So we have tragedies in the past with them. So, you know, after, you know, a day or two of doing a trial date, you kind of

[00:28:00] Know how they’re going to be.

[00:28:02] So that

[00:28:03] Gives we we we

[00:28:05] Do that as well.

[00:28:06] Sometimes look, when we look for associates, you know, there’s it’s a multifaceted job, you know, there’s obviously, you know, it’s got to work for the business. They’ve got to be clinically good. There’s the sort of the chair side manner, part of it. Obviously, in private these days, I find the chair side manner. But even the most important thing, what do you think?

[00:28:27] Yeah. So obviously there’s a whole bunch of tickets, so there’s a money making side of it. But I like associates who were, you know, on time the punch punctual or associates were on. We had a really nice level. We can just talk to each other like Fred said. We can look at cases and we can, you know, call each other out on things which aren’t quite, you know, road stuff. So that’s that’s really good. Yeah, there’s you know, there’s bedside manner there’s but they’ve got to be clinically good as well. And they’ve been, you know, continuing on courses and, you know, just try to keep up to date. So that’s kind about what I look for.

[00:29:03] How do you triage the word when it comes through? So, you know, I’m assuming you’ve got you’ve got a certain amount of NHS dentistry coming through the door and then a certain amount of private dentistry going through the coming through the door and then your various associates. Is there any kind of triage process in terms of will this? Typekit patient with this clinical need goes to me, this patient with certain clinical needle go to associate one to three and how will the team informed about that whole programme?

[00:29:32] So we’ve got quite we’ve got quite a nice setup now after obviously much deliberation and Typekit. So yeah, we’ve got A. Payman before we got to therapists who do all our composite bonding. So all the money goes to that. So they’ll do the consultation

[00:29:49] Because

[00:29:50] We’ve looked at the therapy. So it’s good practise. They can do x rays, they can true partner, they can do, you know, bits and bobs. And then if they want to check that with it, I can

[00:29:59] Also check

[00:30:00] The pan over so it copies. A bundle goes to the therapists.

[00:30:03] So how do you find therapists who are up to doing composite bonding? And how do you know patients take the fact that the therapist is going to do the composite bonding?

[00:30:15] And I don’t think coverage of bottom is quite an art, actually. So, you know, we’ve had therapists who were self-taught and they are literally self-taught, but they are so, so good at it. And we had some therapists on training courses and, you know, it’s also good. So yeah, it’s all about finding the right therapist, which can be very difficult.

[00:30:36] So if you’ve treated a patient, let’s say you’ve prescribed AB for a patient, would you do the alignment alignment and then the rest of the case moves over to the therapy? Yeah.

[00:30:47] So I do the hybrid that obviously which is an herb and then the the bonding part goes to the therapist. Yeah, my therapies are on a percentage just like my associates

[00:30:58] Are your therapist on a percentage or do you pay them on an hourly rate?

[00:31:02] Yeah, I find that that’s the best way.

[00:31:04] So how do the patients take the fact that it’s a therapist and not a dentist? I mean, do you do you explain to them the difference before they go ahead?

[00:31:12] Yeah. So, yeah, good question. So what? I first started out, you know, the dentist did everything, and then when we started to move to a therapist model, patients used to ask me, Well, why aren’t you doing it? You know, what’s the therapist? And I told patients, the therapist is as good as me, if not better, better than me. If I was to give my if I wanted my mom to have treatment, I’d send my mom to this therapist and not be because they’re better at it than me. So, you know, 10, 10, find that works. And you know, a moment like this. The therapist is so much better off than I am

[00:31:43] That, you know, you get far less

[00:31:45] Complications, far less fractures, forest issues with it. So I think what we need to tell patients that they’re more happy with it because they do trust me. So it’s kind of it works.

[00:31:57] Just some of your associates do AB.

[00:32:00] Yes, so my associate also does. And so we got kind of like a set up where, you know, we’re trying to split up the clients half and half. So one could still do one that I’ll do one procrastination and then we’ll look at the numbers because it’s all about. And then if I’m doing more, then we’ll try to push more of it to him or his mother, and we’ll try and push forward, be to try to equalise it. He’s done some bonding, but

[00:32:24] Again he he has sent

[00:32:26] His to the therapist as well because he’s got a few and he likes it. But then I don’t think he’s that keen on it, which is which is fair enough. So we’ve got therapists who can do it.

[00:32:35] It’s an interesting dynamic because, you know, I’ve spoken out and works with a lot of associates and, you know, they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, right? So I can I can very much imagine having a conversation with an associate who’d say, Actually, do you know what? I’m keeping that bonding for myself. You understand where I’m coming from because they think, Well, I’ve solved the case, won the case, blah blah blah, so on and so forth. I’m not letting this go to a therapist. Yeah, but I guess, you know, you know, from my perspective, I look at it and think, Well, you know what? They’re going to be busy doing more Invisalign or doing more, whatever. It’s not going to be sat there twiddling their thumbs. But sometimes you know, you do get some associates who feel they’ve got a sense of ownership over this patient and want to do that. Have you ever come across that?

[00:33:20] So, yeah. Oh, definitely. I’ve had one of my associates I’ve had I’ve had since he left FD, so we’ve kind of grown up together and we’ve kind of moulded each other. So back in the day, he was like, You know, we’ve had our fights say, you know, all you do more than me and stuff like this and you know, and all that kind of stuff. So we’ve had our issues, but we’ve kind of as time has gone by, we’ve kind of iron those out and we’ve got some sort of structure and some sort of system in place now where it’s more equalised.

[00:33:48] And you know, he has full freedom.

[00:33:49] If you want a Bundy case, he’s very he can do it. If he doesn’t want it, he can pass it off. So I don’t force my associates to pass off

[00:33:57] Or the body, you know, is

[00:33:58] Their patient. He can do as he pleases.

[00:34:01] So he’s got

[00:34:03] Full force for freedom.

[00:34:05] It’s actually quite interesting. You know, we’re getting a lot more therapists on many spas, makeover on the composite course and, you know, they often do some of the best, best work as well. And, you know, maybe, maybe it’s self-selecting, right? Maybe someone who’s. Finds the money for a composite cause the therapist provides money for the cognitive course might be really keen one or whatever it is, but I’m quite interested in this question of, you know, as the pendulum has swung

[00:34:31] One way or

[00:34:31] The other, you know, in in in the favour of principles, then in the favour of associates, you know, with lockdown and then with a shortage of associates, is this therapist model going to actually, you know, be something that we’re going to see a lot more

[00:34:45] Of? What do you think, Prav?

[00:34:48] You know, the way I look at it, if we just take it right back to brass tacks, it comes down to the values of your practise, right the way you treat the patients, the way you want to deliver that treatment. And we talk about pendulum swinging associate to to to principle and all the rest of it, right? Ultimately, if you’ve got some values in

[00:35:09] Place are

[00:35:10] There and you understand your associates. So, you know, often I have conversations with our associates and said, What do you want? I think it’s a really important question that principals don’t have with their associates, right? What do you want? Ok? Is it money? Is it work life balance? Is that these high ticket cases? Is it a mixture? And just asking them what they want and get into the bottom of that and delivering what they want? So if they want a flood of Invisalign patients, they want a flood of implant patients or a particular type of patient. If you deliver that, there’ll always be give and take right. This is not a case of without putting too fine a point on it. Screw you, associate. I’m going to replace you with a with a therapist or after.

[00:35:54] What do you think about the therapist model? Do you see that side of your business growing and associates getting

[00:36:00] Less or or what?

[00:36:03] We’ve definitely got a good therapist model going on. And I think my practise is very therapist heavy, let’s say, and then do the practise, which is which was, you know, which is predominately private. That’s very dentists heavy say, you know, the associates don’t want to pass off the work to the therapist, which is which is also, you know, fine. They’ve got freedom. So if the therapist is there, if they don’t want to do it, if they were to pass off, if they do want to do it, then it’s then it’s what are there for them. But I might to

[00:36:33] A whole team.

[00:36:34] So we’ve got because we do something. And for example, we’ve got very cyclic process. So, you know, I don’t do any of the scans. So the patients don’t see me for the scans. They see the nurse with the scans. So the nurses do all the impressions, the nurses do all the oil scans for the patients.

[00:36:51] So do you scan all patients, every single patient?

[00:36:54] So we scanned all the evidence on patients.

[00:36:57] Ok, so not not every single patient.

[00:36:58] No, not all patients.

[00:37:00] So I think the nurse who does it,

[00:37:02] I think she sees about a hundred patients a month, whether that be for the white impressions, whether that be for

[00:37:07] Every 10 compressions, whether that be

[00:37:09] For scan. So, you know, I had to use a whole team because it just creates a better patient journey and everyone gets involved.

[00:37:19] So after what you put it down to, you know, being this apex predator Invisalign guy, it doesn’t happen by mistake. How have you grown it so quickly?

[00:37:28] I’m not actually too sure how we’ve got this big within design. And I could I could answer your question, probably. But it’s just somehow it’s just it just happened. We do. We do. We advertise very

[00:37:41] Minimally.

[00:37:42] But just recently we’ve been advertising using Ignite, where we do get quite a lot of leads. But maybe I think it’s it’s just through word of mouth and Facebook and Instagram. So the patient requires one, whether we give them the price and et cetera, they come in from the consultation.

[00:37:59] And then, you know, so what about follow up? Do you follow up the ones who don’t go ahead?

[00:38:04] So I should say we do, but we don’t

[00:38:07] Because I don’t actually speak without B.S. that we don’t need to follow people up. I think I think we do do a lot wrong. We don’t follow up, you know, we don’t follow leads in this. But I think what?

[00:38:17] But what I’ve

[00:38:18] Always done quite wrongly, O’Reilly is I’ve always kept stuff when I first get into keep stuff cheap. And then as the years go by increasing an increasing increase to what we call an acceptable amount. Just to give you an example, when we did composite bonding, I used to do it for £80 a tooth,

[00:38:36] £80 a tooth. Oh my goodness. No, no. Don’t do that.

[00:38:39] Yeah, yeah. So and now and you know, and now we quote people two or different parties, do they don’t even bat an eyelid because we’ve got the reputation to do it? So I think it was only two years ago where we were doing it for age partners tooth.

[00:38:53] And I thought now that we’ve got the

[00:38:54] Reputation, we increase it. So we’ve been increasing it twice a year. So now we’ve clawed through what we call a normal, acceptable amount.

[00:39:02] What’s your pricing model for Invisalign?

[00:39:05] Yeah. So we used to charge the design research charge two thousand five hundred for pretty much four go, which is not bad. Actually, it’s not cheap, but it’s not expensive and three thousand three hundred four four, which is on the cheaper end of of it.

[00:39:21] But now we’ve, you know,

[00:39:22] Increased to a more normal amount.

[00:39:24] Does that include whitening, including whitening? Do you have that upgrade conversation with a Prav? Prav, an expert at it, will let Prav have to tell us about that

[00:39:35] In my practise. So we looked at the business model of every patient comes through the door, right? And without putting too fine a point on it, how can you increase the amount of money that you take? From every patient period, right? You analyse every treatment, every patient is, how can you maximise the revenue from that patient, right? So let’s say someone comes through the door, keep the numbers simple. You charge someone four grand for Invisalign and you say includes whitening and retainers at that point. If you were to say that conversation, if you were to say to that patient for an extra two hundred and fifty quid, you can get enlightened with it. So it’s now four to 50. Yeah. The level of trust is somewhere on the floor at this point because you’re a salesperson, right? Yeah. That’s not the right time to have that conversation. Yeah, by the time they’ve been through their treatment and they’ve had, I don’t know, 10, 12, 15 appointments, whatever it is, the level of trust is through the roof. Even when I speak to some practitioners, they say their patients are starting to feel sad about the fact they’re not going to see them again because they’re coming towards the end of the treatment.

[00:40:41] You’ve probably experienced that yourself, right? Yeah, yeah. Ok, now at that point where you’re handed over the whitening or you’re having that conversation, say, look, you get in this free whitening with the treatment and b that, you know, boutique Phillips or whatever that that lower rate whitening is. Yeah. And then at that point after that, we have the OK great conversation say. But if that’s worth three hundred and fifty quid for an extra two hundred and fifty quid, we can upgrade you to enlighten. We find that ninety five percent of our patients go for that. But you can go for this. It’s still a high quality premium whitening. Now what usually happens in that conversation? You think about the psychology. Do you want to be in the five percent or the ninety five percent? Yeah, OK. So that’s that’s one point. Yeah. The second point is that the level of trust is so high at that point.

[00:41:35] The patient doesn’t forget this, not just about the trust. It’s also that the hassle, you know, you’ve just been through the hassle of Invisalign, if there’s a real commitment. Yeah. Of course. Of course, my wife had it done. It’s a difficult treatment.

[00:41:48] Yeah, yeah. And so what we found is we increased the value that we were getting or the revenue we were generating out of the patient. By having what’s called that whitening or great conversation, you can have the same retainer or great conversation. And naturally, if they haven’t even considered bonding at this point, they’re definitely going to get a conversation about that. And the majority of them look great. So we end up in a situation where the, you know, the value or the revenue per patient goes up just because you make a conscious effort to have a business discussion around it and then put the process in place.

[00:42:24] Yeah. So we definitely have spoken about O’Grady whitening, but very few talk about Great Rivera’s, which, you know, processes that we should be having with these patients. So again, we’re not we don’t do things right sometimes. And, you know, we should be something that will we could be looking at the future to try to get increased revenue from each patient.

[00:42:46] You know, you talk about mistakes, but you know, you’ve definitely done some things right. You know, you don’t you don’t go from one surgery to Ferrari, but without doing something right? Yeah, you’re obviously very good with patients. And you know, the kind with patients or something you’re bedside manner must be good. Your patients have built up trust in you.

[00:43:07] Yeah, it’s been. It’s been a very surreal journey. But you know, I’ve had I’ve had one thing I would say I’ve had good people, you know, beside beside me, whether it be product to love a good people, mentor me, that you know, yes, he’s got one to celebrate, but he’s got, you know, the ins and outs of business. He’s made the mistakes, you know, even now he’ll say, What are you doing? You know, this is what you’re doing is not right. You just change this. I’ve had good mentors throughout my career. You know, when I was in FDA, my trainer was, you know, a good guy. That’s no was he was from salary Dental care. So and then and then my other two jobs, my service jobs, you know where sedation in for them undivided from death. So these guys taught me, you know, very skills, which obviously it’s all part of the journey, isn’t it? Really? And then then you might know Sheriff Card from Rockingham House.

[00:44:02] Oh, great guy. Sheriff Kern, one of my favourite people. Really, really

[00:44:05] Visionary. Great guy. So yeah, I’ve he’s known me since I was maybe one years old and he did work experience for my dad. So, you know, we’ve. So yeah, we’re grateful. We’re friends. So he’s, you know, he’s been a good mentor as well.

[00:44:17] So he’s a he’s a top

[00:44:19] Guy as well. So I’ve I’ve had really good backing.

[00:44:22] Let’s get on to darker days. What’s been your darkest day from a business perspective?

[00:44:29] Parker said, business wise. So. It was obviously the big, mysterious financial.

[00:44:37] I literally had maybe

[00:44:39] A few thousand in my business account because a big Payman went

[00:44:43] Out and I,

[00:44:44] You know, I just got my my numbers wrong and I think, you know, crap, I need to run a business on

[00:44:50] This. And it’s not, you

[00:44:51] Know, it’s not sufficient. So it’s at a good few sleepless nights thinking, how can I rectify this? How I need, you know, I need some buffer in my account. So, yeah, so that was quite quite a dark day. And so Agnihotri had just had to put some more hours in at work and tried to work the weekend just to just to earn some just to get that money back in.

[00:45:13] Was there ever a moment where you thought to yourself, shit has seriously hit the fan? Now, what have I done or something imploded? Maybe it was the work life balance situation and you just felt, Oh my god. Yeah. Has there ever been those ever been those moments where you’re so down in the dumps where you think, How the hell am I going to dig myself out of this? Not just like, I’ll just put a few more hours in and I’ll lock it from 16 to 18 or whatever, right? Well, real dark hole where you think, actually, you know what? I don’t know how I’m looking up out of this hole, and I don’t even know what the way out is, whether it’s, you know, work life balance, patient can play everything, all sort of coming in at once. Have you ever had that sort of moment in business where you thought, this is it so?

[00:46:04] Oh yeah, definitely. I’ve never had had one of those. It was a couple of years back, actually, where

[00:46:10] I started on my implant journey

[00:46:12] After graduating from Sheffield doing the one to one course, and I started to place implants and then I felt, you know, actually this patient, everything looked OK. And then when it came out, she’d done four surgery breast implant. And I think something’s not right here, but I breast implant, you know, just took a leap of faith and close it back up and then a couple of days later, severe pain. And I’m thinking I shouldn’t have done that. It’s just I should have

[00:46:44] Took a step back,

[00:46:46] You know, no breast implant

[00:46:47] Cause I

[00:46:49] Just thought about it. And yeah, so that patient went went on

[00:46:53] For a bit, but we kind of got

[00:46:55] It resolved. But yeah, that was a I had a good few sleepless nights a weeks about that.

[00:47:01] Just a painful implant. That’s such a difficult thing as such a difficult problem to solve.

[00:47:07] No, no. And I’m the Typekit guy where I just jump in and I’ll just do something, you know, because as I say, you know, new shit is fun. So just jump in and, you know, go ahead at eight

[00:47:19] And just do it.

[00:47:19] As example is, is beside, you know, after the trade cos people either jump in and they do it or they get scared of it and they kind of, you

[00:47:28] Know, don’t do that.

[00:47:29] Many cases where I just kind of jumped in, I just went for it. And, you know, I probably shouldn’t have, you know, doing this on people that I should have thought about it but

[00:47:39] Know I miss that type of

[00:47:40] Guy. Just sometimes I just go for it. Yeah. So most times it works out fine, but you know it can go wrong.

[00:47:50] So, so what did you do about it? What did you do with that patient?

[00:47:53] What I do. So it’s all about obviously patient correspondence and just talking the patient around and in the end, I taking out, but just just leaving it and just refer to the patient. And I just, you know, it just kind of resolve that way, really. But yeah, I should have. It’s one of those where there was there was all sorts of red flags and I didn’t listen to it and I just I just did it. So, yeah, the resolution was actually quite simple, but it took a bit of time to get data together.

[00:48:23] What about what staff have you had any terrible things that have happened with staff over the last 11 years? Must have been some stories over staff.

[00:48:31] So I think the documentary staff was when I first bought my first practise. You know, it was very, you know, they’ve been there for 30 years. You know, they were the type where the waste, where those, you know, those white dresses. So they’re very old school, you know, they weren’t really in tune with the modern way of thinking, you know, you know, cosmetic work and private work. So I think and then a couple of them were our long term sick with stress, and then I had to go through all the hate child complications. And that was very, very stressful because that was, you know, I’d only been there for probably four or five months or six months. So I was in a new practise, very young and having, you know, all these staff issues and, you know, had the thing of, you know, are they going to contribute or are they not going to a tribunal?

[00:49:17] So that was,

[00:49:19] You know, that was not not good stuff wise, but at the end, it took months for that kind of like, write this off. But that was not a fun at all.

[00:49:28] After now, in retrospect, when you look back on your career, yeah. Do you think you jumped into early to practise ownership? And you know, is that some advice that you would give to a young dentist now to, you know, start as quick as possible, make mistakes as quickly as possible? Or would you wait?

[00:49:46] I think I think I did it because I knew that I had good backing. You know, my dad has a dentist and, you know, he’s only a few hours on the road. So it kind of was that. But yeah, I mean, you know,

[00:49:58] My income dropped and

[00:50:00] I was like, You know what, I’m going to do? But no, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t

[00:50:03] Do anything anything differently

[00:50:05] Now if I had to again. But now I would say to anyone, you know, take it, just take a leap of faith that you’ve got to you’ve got to. It’s all about comfort zone. A lot of people had to stay within their comfort zone. If you take that faith outside your comfort zone, it’s just, you know, walk away is something good. It’s all about leaving your comfort zone.

[00:50:24] So, you know, the plans to make more of these and keep on dominating South Yorkshire. Or have you had enough and you know, you’re now going to focus on the work life balance?

[00:50:35] So currently, I’m trying to extend my foster through practise into a service as you practise. And then and then and then renovating my dad’s practise to have five surgery this far with beauty. But after that, I think I’m done.

[00:50:51] Have you thought about an exit plan? I mean, I know, you know, you’re quite young. How old are you?

[00:50:56] Thirty five.

[00:50:57] Yeah. So it’s a bit strange to talk about an exit plan at that age, but you know, the valuations are high right now. So, you know. Has anyone offered you an exit? And you know, what are your thoughts around exit? Are you planning that?

[00:51:11] So actually, in August last year, I was actually thinking about retiring. I was thinking about this,

[00:51:18] You know, selling up,

[00:51:19] You know, I got offered, you know, I got offered good money by a couple of corporates and I thought, You know what, if I do this, I can just do it and work one or two days

[00:51:29] A week and just have a

[00:51:31] Have a chat. But then the more and more I think I thought about it like, you know what my brain is, were that way. I’m not going to. I’m not going to do that. I’m going to end up doing that for six months.

[00:51:40] And I just, you know,

[00:51:42] Go buy cigarettes and build them up and drive my wife crazy once again by working dots and trying to, you know, build that up. So I decided not to do that. I just kind of steadied myself where I am. I mean, you know,

[00:51:57] Obviously when you exit at the end of the day, you’re working for someone else and you have to do what they say in the end. So, you know, maybe you’re at this point of contentment where you’ve got complete control over your practise. So, you know, keep going. Keep going. Why not?

[00:52:12] Yes. Yeah, I mean, I thought about this and I thought, you know, it’s it’s it’s the fact that where we do now, I’m really comfortable with because what I’m doing now, I could not do it if I was an associate or if I was working for one or two days a week because

[00:52:26] I have literally, you know, I’m

[00:52:28] At the place where I can kind of do what I can see, the patients I want to see. And if I don’t want to, if I don’t, yeah, if I don’t want to

[00:52:33] Do so, I just pass it off to a

[00:52:35] Therapist or pass off to associate who does want to do it and where. If I work for someone else, I just cannot do that. So.

[00:52:42] So I’m sorry. You know, Guy, like you must have been, you know, you must think that you’ve got a number, a number that you would exit for the number in your head that you would exit for. Do you think of it that way?

[00:52:53] No, we don’t need to know what that number is unless you’re comfortable show.

[00:52:58] I do have a number and you know, I do have it and I got offered it last year, but I just think I’m just too young. I just don’t, you know, I’m just I’m just too young. Yeah. And that’s the thing. I think I think my age is, you know, get to be. I think I’m just too young to be doing that.

[00:53:17] So I’d rather just own this for a bit longer.

[00:53:20] You know, raise car a couple of days a

[00:53:21] Week and work, you know, two

[00:53:23] Or three days a week. And you know, I’m

[00:53:26] Good for now. So there’s that. What’s your magic number? You know what your magic number is. You’ve been offered it and you’ve walked away from it. Right? And the narrative may have been that flippant. If I want to shoot this off to a therapist now, it’s not going to happen under new ownership.

[00:53:38] Yeah, yeah. That’s the thing I’ll do to yeah,

[00:53:41] That’s there is a strong case that there are people out there that would buy. It would let you carry on running and operate in exactly the way you are today. The reason I know that is I’ve just exited in December and nothing, absolutely nothing has changed. Right? And that was one of our concerns. That’s not to sort of say, look, change your goal or whatever your mindset. Just be aware there are options out there that enable you to carry on and get your magic number and have a whole stack of every single colour of those Ferraris that you you right? But but that’s being put to one side. You know, my dad would always say to me when we were younger, everything is for sale. Son just depends on the price. Yeah, it depends on the price. So, OK, so what’s the plan? What’s that? You’re thirty five now, OK? You’ve obviously thought long and hard about this because you came across that crossroads, you know, however long ago it was and hit that thing. So where we go in next and what is your exit strategy if there is one?

[00:54:46] So right now, my main

[00:54:48] Thing is to, you know, I’ve

[00:54:50] Got a nice

[00:54:50] Practise, I’ve got I’ve bought

[00:54:52] His baby. You know, he’s had it for 30, 40 years, so I’ve now got his baby. So my main concern is to make him proud and see, you know, let’s see, see what I could do with his business and how I could make his business grow to the next level. And, you know, even even, he said, you know, once you’ve grown it, I don’t mind if you sell it.

[00:55:12] I just, you know,

[00:55:12] Just just do good with it. And, you know, put your spin on things and, you know,

[00:55:17] Do what you’ve done to your

[00:55:19] Your business. You know, my first, you know, my first practise and then, yeah, so that’s my big thing. So over next, probably two or three years,

[00:55:28] We’re going to

[00:55:28] Develop that. But, you know, it’s probably three or four years. I’ll be looking to take it, you know, a bit more of a backseat. I think that’s that’s that’s where I’m heading at the minute.

[00:55:39] Really, really.

[00:55:40] Continue.

[00:55:41] Continue what I’m doing. But you know, you know, basically my parents proud of, you know, of just cherish their baby.

[00:55:50] Yeah, they they say behind every successful man is either even more successful or crazy woman, right? And if so, tell me a little bit about your family.

[00:56:02] Yeah. So yeah, we’ve not we’ve not talked about family yet. So yeah, I’ve got, you know, an amazing family and amazing wife.

[00:56:09] So I actually

[00:56:10] Qualified the week later got married.

[00:56:12] So she’s been with me, you know, every step of the way.

[00:56:16] She’s seen the darkest day. She’s seen the good days. You know, when we were younger, I was working four days a week as an associate for eight months. So, you know, we were just loving it. And then we kind of obviously what the practise together. She was a practise manager, so we helped develop the business short term and then she got pregnant so that she stopped being at work actually for the past eight to nine years of that. So but you know, she’s she’s taken care of because I’ve been working crazy hours and it’s been getting worse and worse. My work, my work life balance was getting worse. So she’s taking care of all the home life and, you know, making sure that it’s done. And so, yeah,

[00:56:55] And actually on the weekends,

[00:56:56] You spend a lot of good quality time. But yeah, she’s she’s put with, you know, me not being at home, basically. So she’s an amazing woman. But now I think it’s time I said I give take a bit tired out and just spend some time with him and the family say, I said, I’ve got a daughter who is eight years old, their son, who’s six, and a daughter who’s three.

[00:57:17] So, you know, it’s time I just spend some time

[00:57:20] With them helping with the homework, tried to get home before they start eating dinner. You know, all these all these things notice small things where the kids notice.

[00:57:29] And, you know, because

[00:57:31] This is where, you know, I don’t need no need to don’t need money. You know, we’ve got,

[00:57:35] You know, I think, quite blessed.

[00:57:37] So now it’s just a case of showing the kids that, you know, you can have a good work balance. You can spend time with kids and you can have a nice house, some nice cars. But you know, you can have both

[00:57:49] What you like in terms of switching off when you get home. So I used to struggle with it and still do actually is that you get home and it’s, you know, the ideal scenario is that work just flies out of the window when you pick it up the next day. What’s what are you like with that?

[00:58:06] So, yeah, so no, I’m really bad at actually. So in the sense that, you know, I’m always taking work with me, work or whatever will be. So I’m always, you know, even though, for example, I pay one of my staff to do the social media hours so they get paid, you know, between two and semesters. So I’m always checking and making sure they’re getting done. And so I’m quite controlled in that sense, which is obviously not good because when I’m at home, I’m always checking things and making things again done and the way I like it.

[00:58:37] But I guess, you know, one or two months

[00:58:39] Are, you know, two wait trade to have started to just come out, you know, things are fine. They, you know, I is taking care of, you know, they can do it, they can do it to a good standard. Just let them do it. So. So now you know

[00:58:54] What kind of a boss are you?

[00:58:57] I’d say that I’m quite demanding, but my staff will probably tell you that I’m quite laid back

[00:59:02] Because I’m kind of,

[00:59:03] You know, it’s all stuff gets done as long as we’re busy and stuff gets done always well. And it’s when stuff doesn’t get done, you know? You know, if a patient complains, and that’s when I start to take, you know, get a bit angry, decide, say, right, why this happened, how can we fix it? So I’m quite laid back, actually. So I’ve heard, but I can be demanding if if stuff does get done.

[00:59:25] How have you developed as a leader? I mean, obviously, it takes different skills to to be the

[00:59:31] Leader, you know, to be the sole

[00:59:32] Practitioner in a single chair practise compared to, you know, the number of people that you’re having to lead now. How have you changed going in these 11 years

[00:59:42] As I kind of think I’ve done the same thing always.

[00:59:45] And it’s just it’s just

[00:59:46] All everything’s just falling into place. I wouldn’t say that I’m any different that, you know, to always tell you to to our now, I think it’s just to say I’m laid back in. It’s all about I think it’s all about hire the right people just getting along with everybody, making sure everyone knows what they’re doing. And you know, everyone has a certain skill set just utilising that skill set.

[01:00:07] What’s your favourite clinical treatment? Do you have one that you know you like the most?

[01:00:11] What do I both?

[01:00:13] I would say

[01:00:14] In this world and in parts that’s my, you know, interest at the moment. I really, really like, enjoy this ride because it’s, you know,

[01:00:22] I really reside and

[01:00:24] I presume practising talking to patients through the whole journey. And because it’s that that’s kind of, you know, those two things are quite life changing.

[01:00:32] So with with implants, though, it’s one of those things that you have to sort of super focus on, you know, and do that and not do anything else. And that’s what I understand anyway. We’re talking to lots of implant soldiers on this, this this show, you know, how have you gone into that, you know, by dabbling a little bit and how far in it are you?

[01:00:54] Oh, definitely.

[01:00:54] Literally. Just last week, I showed it to my practise man and say, You know, I need it or my my came because, you know, I think I’m still quite basically, I need to be ready to start doing more courses that get you bought into that. So literally last week, I was told my practise manager about it. So yeah,

[01:01:10] It’s a very the switch. You can work,

[01:01:13] You know, in practise soft tissue surgery and,

[01:01:16] You know, grafting

[01:01:17] Inside have said on for this. You know, it’s it’s endless, isn’t it?

[01:01:22] Isn’t it is an interesting question. So someone in your position who has got a certain level of implant experience, but you know that there’s a lot more to learn. How on earth do you go about finding the right course, the right person to train you? What do you look for? You know, I have this conversation with what? Well, several clients that I work with who do this right, you’ve got Hassan, we’ve got Alfonzo. We’ve had first hand on year loan to different people out there. My brother. Yeah, loads of different people who teach implants. What is someone like you look for?

[01:02:00] So I went of the Sheffield. What one course and there. And then from there I met, met a few people and then, you know, they’ve been helping me and mentor me from there. So and then I’ve also asked, you know, some good advice from it, from Sheriff Carter, who

[01:02:15] Is obviously very good at it.

[01:02:17] So I’ve had I’ve had kind of good mentorship from a few directions, you know, whether it be restorative or implants. My my dad’s always had, you know that he’s always had some good contacts. So I’ve always gone to them and they’ve always helped me out. So I’ve had good backing right from the start. So, you know, it’s all about contacts, really, you

[01:02:39] Know, word of

[01:02:40] Mouth. What about

[01:02:42] Them? It’s like that thing you say Prav about the the who, not the what,

[01:02:46] The who, not the how they the who, not the

[01:02:48] Have the who, not the how. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re coming to the end of our time now. So I don’t know if you’ve heard this podcast before, but we always end with the same questions or the same two questions now. Mm hmm. I’ll let Prav kick off with his.

[01:03:03] So after, you know, imagine it was your last day on the planet and you’ve done you’ve done all your graphs and you’ve made your dad really proud and you’ve grown his practise into into something similar to yours, if not better. And everything is great. You’ve you’ve sold them and achieved everything you wanted to in life, but it’s your final day on the planet and you’ve got your three children around you, your wife, and you need to leave them with three pieces of parting advice. What would those be?

[01:03:38] So it would be do what you enjoy.

[01:03:44] Don’t don’t get

[01:03:44] Forced into doing something that you

[01:03:46] Don’t want to do,

[01:03:48] Do what you want to do in life and enjoy

[01:03:50] It and, you know, just be happy in

[01:03:52] That sense.

[01:03:54] Second, what

[01:03:54] Would probably be have a good work-life balance because I’ve never been there,

[01:03:59] So have a good

[01:04:01] Week apart.

[01:04:02] Will you just be happy?

[01:04:04] Your family will be happy, your wife will be happy?

[01:04:06] And then I’d say, just

[01:04:08] Just look after your family. Just be there for one another. Help help each other out because family is family at the end of the day, so that those would be my advice.

[01:04:18] That’s a bit of a cheat. The second or the third one with a saying, we, you have to do one more.

[01:04:24] This is keep one more, make one more.

[01:04:26] Well, I have to think about that. I’d always have enough, always have enough money for a rainy day because I’ve been there. I’ve I’ve run out of money. I’ve had to go to a bank of mum and dad and ask for a loan for a new surgery.

[01:04:41] Okay. And how would you like to be remembered after there was? And then just finish that sentence?

[01:04:51] I’ve had to think Elizabeth herself is a kind, caring,

[01:04:56] But also hardworking

[01:04:59] After and now pays. Final question! Fancy dinner party? Three guests. Dead or alive? Who would you pick?

[01:05:09] So would they be the power of a cabinet by childhood hero back with you, back

[01:05:16] At the centre

[01:05:17] Because he’s just a legend and the old Doncaster guard Jeremy Clarkson is

[01:05:22] Here. Don’t call us the guy, Jeremy Clarkson. He is, yeah. I never knew

[01:05:25] That he went to the same school as me. Yeah. Jim Clarkson before he got expelled.

[01:05:30] Jason Smith is a Doncaster guy who is he is. He is a three car guy. You love your cars, man.

[01:05:37] I like that very much. I do. I do other cars. I do have a cars.

[01:05:41] Well, Gandhi is not getting much of a look in these days, though, with the car.

[01:05:44] No, no, no. He’s not. And actually one one one final question, which is, let’s say you have 30 days left and you could do anything you want. You had all your health and wealth intact. What would you do, mate?

[01:05:58] No, I definitely I’d actually travel the world. My aim, my aim is, you know what? I want to, you know, I get my time with the kids, get older because hopefully my my kids will be older and I’ll be still relatively young to, you know, take the wife and travel the world because we’re actually we’re not forwarded enough.

[01:06:16] And yeah, don’t go

[01:06:18] Places closest from Los Alamos, you know, safaris, et cetera. So that is that is

[01:06:24] If people want to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to connect with you?

[01:06:28] They want to. They can always email me

[01:06:30] Or Facebook me,

[01:06:32] You know? Yeah, I’m always open to a chat. So, you know, I’ve get people come up to me and say, You know, how to do this? Or What have you done to do this? And I’m happy to chat with anyone about anything, really.

[01:06:42] Well, I want to thank you both. It’s been a lovely conversation. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you.

[01:06:47] It’s been great. Nice to see you both. Really, really good.

[01:06:51] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:07:07] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

[01:07:21] If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:07:32] And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] I never hated dentistry.

[00:00:01] No, you love it, you

[00:00:03] Love it more than I loved it.

[00:00:04] I will never be able in my life to hate dentistry you love. I will never be able to do that. I love dentistry and I think it’s it’s. Other dentists probably have. This, too is not that you hate it or you don’t want to do it. Is that that concern that you might hurt someone, you know? Yeah. And you don’t want that because you care too much.

[00:00:27] You know, I think

[00:00:29] The person I like, I like, I like where you’re coming from, Alex. You’re a very special person to be with thinking like that.

[00:00:34] I think thank you. Think, you know, I’m not sure if it works like in my

[00:00:38] Advantage, but I’m just

[00:00:40] I’m just saying like probably my fear was coming from. But what if I really make a mistake like and I hurt someone, you know?

[00:00:53] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:11] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Alex Luzinski onto the podcast. The reason for this conversation is that I saw a couple of posts by Alex on the Dental group that is for people who want to leave dentistry, and some of our listeners will remember. Episode 60 one with Tom Youngs, who wrote, My great good friend who left dentistry after only one year as an associate, and I felt like it was such a massive loss to the profession. And then we heard his story and you know what he was doing. So I wanted I wanted to speak to Alex because her post really touched me. It was a very gentle post about how it’s gone. She hasn’t completely left dentistry as of yet, but the journey and the first steps and often those first steps of the hardest steps. And so I really want to hear it from her. Lovely to have you, Alex.

[00:02:00] Thank you for having me and thank you for, you know, inviting me because I never

[00:02:05] Thought that post

[00:02:06] Will have such an impact. I’m happy and I’m also nervous because I don’t do podcast. You know, I’m my mom, I do lunch, dinner, breakfast and stuff like that, and

[00:02:16] Then I go to work. So this is really fancy for me.

[00:02:19] I thought, if I if I’m not,

[00:02:21] If you listen to any rules, that’s your job to like, tell me when to stop. Do you listen

[00:02:27] To some podcasts?

[00:02:28] I do. I do listen to podcast. I find it very soothing, you know, especially I always like the radio voices. They give me peace and quiet. And yeah, I do listen to funny

[00:02:40] Because sometimes I invite guests onto the podcast and they say, What’s the podcast? And then you have to say, it’s just a conversation. That’s all it is. You? Yeah, yeah. And because they’ve never listened to one, they get really worried about it. But, you know, I was really happy. You accepted.

[00:02:53] Thank you so much. Alex, tell me

[00:02:55] Some of your back story. You know, I’m very interested in, OK, we’re going to get onto the point of you decided dentistry wasn’t 100 percent for you. We’re really interested in as a kid or just when you were about to go into dental school, what you thought dentistry would be.

[00:03:12] And and by the way, I think all of us find it, you know, different

[00:03:16] To what we thought it was going to be. I found university itself completely different to what I thought. I had a picture of university from a, you know, an American movie with one people playing guitars, you know, just ridiculous, childish vision, let alone dentistry and what that was going to be and what it’s going to be like to be a dentist. And even though I spent some time watching a dentist, you don’t get anything from that to tell you you don’t really understand what, what the hell is going on or the struggle is going through in the mouth. It was a different world. What was it different? I mean, tell me about what you thought it was going to be, what it was in dental school for you. And then when it started, you know, feeling like it wasn’t right or whatever.

[00:03:57] So I don’t think like as a kid, you know, when when you start thinking, Oh, what am I going to do with my life?

[00:04:04] I don’t remember

[00:04:06] Me ever thinking, Oh, I want to be a dentist, because in Romania, especially like during my childhood, yes, your thought how to take care of your teeth and stuff. But it’s not something as important as other things, you know? So I wasn’t paying very much attention to dentists and clinics, and I wasn’t in the right, you know, environment to to meet those people until one day when in my block of apartment, there was this young lady with great energy, a fantastic energy like he impacted me the moment I saw her, you know? And later on, you know, it’s like whenever someone moves in your neighbourhood and in Romania, we’re very friendly. So we we all jump to help her and stuff like that. So I started talking to her and she was studying to be a dentist in Romania, in my city, in Yash. And it was very interesting because she was practising. Obviously in Romania, we are allowed to practise starting year for we are allowed to practise on patients as long as you find someone willing to, you know, work in your mouth with their mentor and stuff. And I said, Yes, absolutely, you know, and obviously I had I had some problems. Obviously, I wasn’t brushing my teeth properly and she was extremely gentle, but at the same time, very, very passionate.

[00:05:30] And she asked me to be that patient for her. Yes, yes.

[00:05:33] But also, we were kids, you know, it’s like nine difference between me and her. So she wanted also to help me. Like her goal wasn’t to OK, I want to show you, you know, about this profession and stuff was, come on. You have this opportunity to have your teeth fixed and you can help me as well. So it worked both ways. But you know, I got my teeth fixed and much more than that. They got like, I want to become a dentist, and I stuck

[00:06:02] With her until

[00:06:03] She. Completed her studied and studies, and she became a dentist and she opened her clinic because in Romania, it’s it’s a bit easier. I mean, you need to do a lot of sacrifices, but it’s a straightforward situation if you have some parents that can support you to open a clinic. And I was in high school and I remember going to school and then after school, I was going into the clinic because they were very close to each other and helping her out, you know, like a like a shadowing or stuff like that. And I loved it. I mean, the interaction with the patients, you know, all the interesting things. The x rays do impressions. For me, it was, whoa, this is like something that I definitely want to do. And that was it. I never thought about other career or something else I want to do, and I just went for it. That’s why I became a dentist, and I’m still I think she’s my mom. She’s my godmother. You know, in Romania, we have a godfather and godmother when you get married. So like witnesses here, yeah, so so she’s she’s my godmother. So we we’re still in touch and she still has the same clinic and stuff, and it’s fantastic. I think it’s quite quite amazing.

[00:07:13] So, so when you went to dental school, then what were you like as a dental student and what were you? What was your impression of dentistry and dental school?

[00:07:23] I think I loved it. I loved it, and I struggled at the same time because it’s a lot of volume, as you know, it’s a

[00:07:30] Lot of things to

[00:07:32] Learn. In Romania, we have like three years of general medicine within the dentistry faculty, basically. And after that, you start studying like teeth, basically with morphology and everything else that comes with it. So starting year four and until the year for I wasn’t like, OK, do I like it? I don’t like it. But it was OK. I was. I was going through it quite easily. It wasn’t difficult for me to pass the exams and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. But I wasn’t like obsessed with it, you know, like I wore, this is really my passion. The moment I started to to, you know, to

[00:08:08] Get into

[00:08:09] The dentistry field more, I started to see that I like it, you know, and I found a really good mentor, my prosthetic. He was fantastic and I again, I stuck with her because it was the passion that I was seeing in these people. This is what attracts me to it, you know, and I stuck with her and she helped me graduate, you know, and she helped me with the disease, and I had my disease in prosthetics and it was very nice. I really enjoyed my last two years because we did a lot of hands on. We have a we have like a part of the university has like a little clinic. When people with, you know, that are not very well financially, they can go and have their teeth fixed there by students while the mentor is there. So it was it was an amazing opportunity and I was there from the morning until the the late evening. Always, always, always. At some point there were some people like throwing me out, you have to go home. I mean, there are other people that need to study like, it’s so much, so much. So I enjoyed it. I really, really like it.

[00:09:16] I mean, you qualified and did you work in Romania at all or did you?

[00:09:19] I didn’t work in Romania. I told my teacher actually was a little bit upset with me because she was hoping to become her assistant, you know, to go into the university and to teach as well eventually. But I always wanted to come to to England because I said, I need to. I need to give my family a better education. We had, you know, Romania is it’s a good country, but also we have some problems. And I said, my kids needs to have better educational system than this.

[00:09:46] Did you have kids already or you said your future kids?

[00:09:49] I my future kids. I had I had my first kid in my last year of university. Ok, so while I was doing my thesis and stuff, I also gave birth. Like two weeks later, I had the exam and stuff, and it was fantastic. I loved it.

[00:10:03] So when did you get married in 2012?

[00:10:06] Year five, we do six years in Romania of university. So Year five I got married. Year six I had a kid and then next year we moved to London.

[00:10:17] Is that is that common or is that uncommon? Because that seems uncommon for me. Someone in middle of Dental

[00:10:23] School getting married? I don’t know.

[00:10:26] We had other colleagues getting married, so I was the only one. But I understand what you’re what you’re saying. Yes, it’s it’s again, it’s a lot of volume to deal with my husband. He was studying general medicine, so he finished medical studies. So maybe that’s why we did it.

[00:10:46] He was a OR.

[00:10:48] Yes. No, he’s actually smaller than me. He’s younger with two years and he had to. I had to leave him behind and we moved here and then he kept travelling. Romania, U.K.

[00:11:00] So find the process.

[00:11:01] Yeah, yeah. Well, you know the life of an immigrant. I was I was telling you before, we’ve got eight Romanians working at Enlightened, so yeah, I think we’ve got, you know, living in London, working in London, we’ve got more more immigrants than than than local people. But the question of when you came over, what were your initial impressions or had you been before or what was the story?

[00:11:22] So I’ve been in 2011 for three months and I did some shadowing on Harley Street, believe it or not.

[00:11:30] Well, it was fantastic.

[00:11:32] I loved it. You know, I mean, I was from Romania and I never left the country before. So you need to give me a bit of credit that, you know, everything was fantastic. You could have sent me to any country and I would have loved it. But I really had this connexion with this, with this country and with London, and I liked it. And I said, I want to come in practise here,

[00:11:58] You know, get up and go to sort of leave. A lot of people associate that with people who, you know,

[00:12:04] I don’t know, desperate or

[00:12:07] Or whatever. I mean, you said, OK, you wanted just a better education for your kids. But as a dentist in Romania, you could probably be one of the highest up people in society, and you could probably put your kids in very good schools. You know, the education system in Romania, it’s pretty good. So what was was it? Was it more to do with exploring and seeing the world? Kind of.

[00:12:27] Oh, I wanted something different. You don’t want to open the clinic at the ground floor of my apartment building and have everybody come to me because I was seeing Angkor, my godmother. You know, that was having the cleaning and she wasn’t like the happiest person ever. Like, every single day when she came back from work and stuff. But I wanted something different. I always want something more, you know? And if I could make a change to achieve that, I would do it. And we had a small baby. I mean, Sophia was like, probably if it wasn’t even a year old when we moved here, we just took suitcases. And that’s it. We just came in, Wow. And I never regretted it.

[00:13:09] Tell me about your first job, first job interview in the UK. Did you have to give it as well? Oh no,

[00:13:15] No, because I always work in private field. Ok, so it was it was. It was a very gradual. That’s another thing I would like to talk more about. Actually, maybe other people will learn from it, not people that study here, because I think you have a very good way to teach your students what to look for and what to be careful of when they take a job. But for people that are coming from other countries, it’s a bit more difficult to get to the bottom of those kind of informations. And whatever is official there, it’s not enough to be honest with you. So the first job I had I had it was with I was like, I was hired like a Dental nurse and it was a fantastic dentist. I’m not sure. I mean, I was, I will say

[00:14:03] His name, but Dr

[00:14:05] Jerome Siba, he has a he has a clinic, a fantastic clinic in Rochester Ro in Victoria, and he was opening it up and he was looking for a Dental nurse. And I said, Listen, I have

[00:14:19] To get into a

[00:14:20] Clinic at least to see things, and I’m happy to work as a dental nurse to get things going and for me to get used to the, you know, well, the terms and all the processes and everything you know is you English

[00:14:32] With your English? Pretty strong at that point, you know?

[00:14:34] Yeah, I think it was good. It wasn’t like fantastic. I mean, it’s not fantastic now, but it was OK. You know, it was it was quite okay. And he was happy. So the first job was with with with him as Dental as his Dental nurse. And and he was very supportive and extremely kind, and I learnt so much from him.

[00:14:53] And while I was

[00:14:54] Doing the Dental nurse, I was still applying, you know, because it’s that circle like, no experience, no job, no job, no experience, right? So nobody would take a risk to hire me as a private dentist, you know, just to start working without prior experience in this country. So I said, Well, I still have to do something, and I was never afraid to to start to the bottom. I mean, for me to get somewhere, you need to start somewhere. So I would just do it. So I did it. It was fantastic. I started applying for other jobs and I stumble upon Harley Street whitening clinic job that was hiring dentists to do whitening, cleaning, whitening, treatment and stuff and say, Yeah, well, I think I can do that. I was I was aware of all the, you know, the whitening problems and that only dentists can do well. I’m a dentist. That’s a good thing. I can do it. You need to have I have insurance so I can do it. That’s fine. The clinic is on high street, so it’s a clinic. It’s, you know, it’s out there, so it’s OK. So I went on and do it, and I did it like for a few months only.

[00:16:01] What was that called?

[00:16:03] It was a state is something with. Well, I have it because there’s a big story about it. Oh God.

[00:16:12] Just tell me this story is bad

[00:16:16] Because that’s where all my, my, my fears about dentistry started. I worked just for it from August until February because I was keep applying for jobs because I was wanting an associated job in a clinic, you know?

[00:16:32] What was it

[00:16:33] Like? Light activated? Exactly.

[00:16:35] Yeah, yeah. Like, we still have them, right? But I was I was. I took with my. I’m very I’m very reluctant to anything to anything. So I remember, like yesterday, I put on my insurance I was with, did you at that moment I said, I’m working this time in the clinic because I was doing some hours as a dental nurse with Jerome. Yeah, yeah. But also I’m doing a non-clinical hours and I wrote it down and I send it to them because I want to make sure everything is OK. You know that I’m allowed to do that. Yeah, I said

[00:17:12] Non-clinical treatments

[00:17:14] Of whitening, you know, like I have, I have the papers and everything, and they said they’d find the words. They didn’t tell me anything or ask questions. What what kind of clinic is that? So I start doing that. I did it for for six months, August until February. Centre for Dentistry. That is gone now. They gave me a job in south and central, spent it in Sainsbury’s. Yes, I worked for them four and a half years. It was amazing. Which practise? Oh, I worked in a lot of them. I worked in Chichester and rusting down in Brighton. I’ve been to

[00:17:46] All of those. I’ve been to all of

[00:17:47] Those because I was happy to travel. Listen, give me a one. I’ll do it. You know, I’ll do it. It keeps me busy. I was like, that seven, maybe not seven, but six days a week. I’ll do it. I was hunger for dentistry, for teeth.

[00:18:02] Yeah.

[00:18:02] So March eight, March 2016, I went to take over my my first real job, you know? And a month later, my manager, my manager from the whitening clinic called me, Well, Alex, we have a problem because we have some patients that complained about some problems, you know, whitening and stuff. They said, OK, I’m calling the insurance. I kept it cool. You know, I freaked out on the inside, kept cool on the outside, and it was really ugly. It was really ugly because obviously the manager disappeared. Not just that, but he tried to offer money to those clients. Meanwhile, obviously I called my insurance. They said, Send us anything you have, we’ll take care of it like always happens. And it was good. It was good, but it kept going for four years.

[00:18:52] Bloody hell, what was GDC involved?

[00:18:55] No. Wow. Well, yes.

[00:18:57] Four years at the very first. Well, it wasn’t the first job, but it was the second. But my real job was the dentist. Yeah, and if if there wasn’t written in my insurance, the clinic name and what I was doing there, they wouldn’t have fought for me.

[00:19:16] But what kind of complaints were they

[00:19:19] That they had burns and stuff?

[00:19:21] Oh, did they have burns?

[00:19:22] They had a little bit of burns. That’s true. But you know, I didn’t know you need to put the badge number. I didn’t know the clinic was like I was a dentist. I was insured and I was everything was in order with me. But the way the

[00:19:35] Manager was dealing

[00:19:37] With everything else, it wasn’t okay and nobody told me that because obviously I had an induction and I was inducted by a fellow Romanian dentist that could have told me, you know, listen, you need to be careful of this and this and this and take as many notes. We didn’t have a system, we didn’t have a software. They were only like some, some forms they were signing. And that’s it, you know,

[00:20:00] And you was right. You were going to place on Harley Street as far as you were concerned, so that it must be

[00:20:05] Exactly because when I did the shadowing, it was a proper clinic, you know, and with with dentists and with nurse. And when I saw the job, I said, Oh, I know that place. It’s a really fancy place, so it must be regulated and stuff. And it wasn’t so I it was the big, you know, bump in my face SoC. But you know, it was very interesting because I had to make a decision like, what do I do? I took with a really good friend in dentistry, and she said, You need to tell everyone, Alex, you need to stay because it’s a real thing. Your mental health will be affected. And I don’t think if you will be able to work, you know, because it’s always at the back of your mind, oh my goodness, I have this claim. And it wasn’t one. So it was three patients complained. All of them had the treatment at the same day in my very last day at work. Wow. So it was it was unbelievable.

[00:20:59] I thought, did you have a

[00:21:00] Bad day or do you think they set you up somehow?

[00:21:03] Listen. Two of them, they are doctors, the patients, so the the patients, yes, they were doctors, not dentists, doctors. Wow. And they were having. They were having the wedding. So two of them are connected. But the third one is not. But it was the patient before them.

[00:21:21] It just seems like too much of a coincidence isn’t there?

[00:21:24] I don’t know.

[00:21:24] What was it.

[00:21:26] But listen, it freaked me out for four years.

[00:21:29] I wasn’t. You know,

[00:21:31] It’s it’s a I want to talk so much about this because I think so many dentists and I had, like my case wasn’t like, you know, really serious damaging with long term problems. You know, it was something cosmetic. And you know, you have all these physicians that analyse your patients and they are telling you if there really are problems or not and stuff like that. And most of the time, they were not. None of their problem was my business, my negligence. Let’s say yes, but the powder was that I ruined their wedding.

[00:22:06] Yeah, so they

[00:22:08] They kept pushing that. And then they they accused me that they had to split up because of I ruined their wedding and stuff like that. So it was so it was so ugly. It was so ugly. But eventually, after four years, I think it was May, May 2020. So it’s very fresh for me. I’m still celebrating, you

[00:22:26] Know, when everything

[00:22:28] Was cleared out and the insurance pay and you know, they had to leave the country for whatever reason, and that was it. But for me, I was. It will always stay with me. You know, it will be you.

[00:22:40] Let me tell you, because you know, I started we’ve been doing whitening for 20, 20 years now and we started with light activated whitening and and it wasn’t at all your fault. Yeah, there’s there’s some system, some situations and some viscosity of gels. Yeah, when it’s a very watery gel and particularly, I’m sure this guy was giving you something, something really cheap and nasty. He was he was supplied.

[00:23:05] Obviously, it was all eBay stuff because I did my

[00:23:08] Research afterwards, you know, I mean,

[00:23:10] Powder powder gel mixed with liquid. That’s such a watery thing that it seeps under any damn that you put there. And and the thing is, as a dentist, do you think it’s protected? You put the stuff there and then it’s been seeping under. Yeah, I know the situation you’re talking about,

[00:23:28] But not

[00:23:28] Just that the guy the manager was, you know, they were selling because after that I heard that they were selling the packages with the treatments on Groupon. These Groupon, I think the green thing and you know, if they bought a certain package, they would send them whitening kit for home. So all these three patients had the home whitening kit as well. Yeah, but how how do I prove? Because because I didn’t have any notes, I didn’t have any system. I did. I mean, he he did provide some things that the consent form I took from the patient and stuff, but that was it. There was nothing written about, Oh, they use the home kit whitening like we do in a clinic. You know, this patient will follow like after the surgery enlightened, for example, they will sleep with it at home as well and stuff like that. And you take the batch number and you take, Oh my goodness, I wasn’t aware of all that. So obviously it looks like it was my fault not knowing all these things and and asking things, because if something doesn’t look right and you don’t ask, it’s as much as your fault, right? Yeah.

[00:24:35] So Typekit a while to get over that trauma, I’m sure I bet you still still feel it a little bit right.

[00:24:41] I feel it 100 percent. I don’t think you can ever, because it’s not even I mean, then I worked and I continue this friend of mine. I was telling you, she said, maybe you should not work. And I understand her advice because it wasn’t easy to go every single day in a practise and see people with the same confidence. And, you know, with the same, well, even later,

[00:25:06] Are you talking about later in centre for dentistry?

[00:25:09] Absolutely. You would never know

[00:25:11] How I mean this. All these complaints ended in 2020. The Payman. This all finished in 2020. So all these years, if I would have listened to some people, I wouldn’t have worked. Which doesn’t, doesn’t make any sense, but I I fought through. So I fuelled through this years like whenever we had even a system in the family because I was so stressed out whenever I was. You know, you get this when the insurance people send you stuff from the solicitors and stuff, you need to put the password in and then you open the document. And my husband was doing it for me, reading it. And then when I was getting home, telling me in a very soft, kind, gentle manner, what’s going on? Because the moment I would see that I got an email from these people, I was like, Oh my god, oh my god.

[00:25:59] Oh, what a lovely guy he is. What a lovely thing.

[00:26:02] Amazing. It’s very it’s very important to have a support. I don’t think it’s

[00:26:07] Right to tell

[00:26:08] Someone that deals with a complaint or you need to stop working because I mean what that would do to them, you know, just what? Stay at home. I would stay at home, like for four years, and during this time I had a second baby. But still, you know, I try to keep it cool and just go on with it. And I was what gave me confidence, obviously, was dentistry because my patients were fantastic. My manager was fantastic. I don’t know. I don’t know what the successful dentist is. Maybe you do. I have no idea. But whenever my patient lived, like whenever someone leaves the clinic happy, I think that’s a success. So I never, ever, ever since that whitening complaint had another one, like in a proper clinic that has a complaint system, you know how to manage the complaints whenever they happen and stuff like that. And that almost I had to prove to myself that, you know, you actually can do it. And that was just like a

[00:27:08] Hiccup

[00:27:08] Early on in your career to have.

[00:27:10] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:11] And yeah, the fact that you were coming to a new system where you didn’t know. I mean, if, for instance, if you said to me whitening clinic Harley Street, I would immediately say, be careful. Because a lot of those are run by non dentists that are owned by non dentists and people who think whitening is whitening. And like you said, they go for the cheapest product. Maybe they could at internet marketing to get people in. They are, but but that’s about the end of it, you know, and to put it on Harley Street to make it look like it’s, you know, the people, the kind of person who comes to Harley Street thinking they’re going to see a top end person and a top end clinic. And then the clinic is run by a non dentist and it’s using all the cheapest stuff. And procedures aren’t right. It’s, you know, you walked into that from not knowing the situation. In the same way as if I turned up in Romania tomorrow to set up my whitening company, I’d end up making a whole lot of big mistakes that you wouldn’t make. Yeah, because you know, the system, the

[00:28:11] Exact and that’s the awareness I would like to raise, you know, for a lot because maybe I mean, I think, as you say, if you’re here, you know your stuff, you know, especially in London, it’s impossible not to learn these things. But when you come from a different country and you see someone willing it to give you a job and you see that you tick all the boxes that you’re actually allowed to do, the job said, why not do it? Why is this people operating a business if I’m not supposed to work there, you know, then tell

[00:28:41] Me, Look, you should, you know, on the face of it, you start working in centre for Dental Street, you start getting happy patients, you start doing the kind of work that you were trained to do. Yeah. What went wrong?

[00:28:52] Nothing.

[00:28:53] But then why we leave

[00:28:54] It was always, I mean, my mental health completely changed. I don’t think I mean, I really hope whoever is listening this podcast and dealt with some complaints, I would really like them to send me a message to tell me if they 100

[00:29:11] Percent got over it. I hear you. I hear you because

[00:29:15] I didn’t, and I don’t think I will ever do. Listen, I

[00:29:19] Still want this, Alex. That’s ridiculous. That’s ridiculous. I’m sorry. I don’t mean to say it’s ridiculous because

[00:29:24] It’s it’s not like

[00:29:25] It’s still reality. It’s your reality. The other means

[00:29:28] The word was wrong.

[00:29:29] Ridiculous is the wrong word.

[00:29:31] But but but you will get over there. Yeah, I mean, you know, I know people in much worse situations and gotten over it. Yeah. And you know, I don’t know you. I don’t know

[00:29:43] Exactly whether you will or

[00:29:44] You won’t. But my point is, you know, it’s like, it’s like, I don’t know, like like a like a death.

[00:29:52] Yeah.

[00:29:53] You’ll never forget it. Hmm. But in the end, you know, you move on from it. You know, well, if God forbid someone

[00:30:04] Close to you passes

[00:30:05] Away, I’m not going to say you’re ever going to get over that because, you know, that’s that’s a that’s a thing that you know, you’re never going to get over, but you can get back to the person you were. I wouldn’t write yourself off that quickly, you know what I mean? Very lucky to do

[00:30:21] That, I think. But look at you, you’re very wise, right?

[00:30:25] I probably you lived

[00:30:26] Like four times more than I lived so far.

[00:30:29] So that’s my job to tell you these things, then.

[00:30:32] So it’s it’s it’s amazing that you tell me this and I think you’re absolutely 100 percent right.

[00:30:38] But it’s like being scared

[00:30:40] Of heights, you know, you can’t really control it. And you know, when we will go to like my transition and stuff and when I took some space out of it, I started to miss it. And I understood going back in the clinic to get them actually doing a brilliant job. Of course, I’m not, you know, like maybe a good cosmetic surgeon kind of dentist that does impeccable bonding techniques and stuff. But the way I treat a patient is always fair. And it’s with gentleness, and I think fair is the most important word here. Yes. And I do what’s right for them, and I understand that and I feel it every single time I’m in the clinic. But somewhere, you know, deep inside, it’s always that very bad memory. It’s not just what happened, but how long it took to clear out, and it’s a reliving. Every time you get to go through this process, you understand that it’s an ongoing feeling that you’re experimenting. Basically, you’re you’re feeling basically and maybe it’s something, you know, maybe I need to educate myself, I need to

[00:31:52] Talk

[00:31:53] To in this country. We’re going through a nightmare

[00:31:56] Legal situation

[00:31:58] As dentists. Yeah, in that, yeah, more dentists are getting more complaints and being sued by more patients than than in every other country apart in New Zealand, apparently so more than America, you know, which is, you know, we were always used to look at American dentists and laugh about how they’re getting sued all the time. But it’s happening more here. And I know this isn’t helping your little,

[00:32:20] But it’s very encouraging.

[00:32:24] But but the thing is talking to you, I can see you. You’re one of those dentists. We need more dentists like you. Yeah, more people who

[00:32:32] Are doing it for the patient

[00:32:34] Fair. You know, you’re obviously you’re an enthusiastic person. The profession needs more people like you. And it’s a damn shame of people like you who someone who’s gentle and responsive. You know, the problem is someone who’s gentle yourself. I’m not talking about with your hands, but a gentle person gets hurt more by this sort of thing than someone who’s hard and just shrugged it off. But you know, I know dentists just just to help you out. I know dentists have been sued every year for the last four years.

[00:33:02] And you know,

[00:33:03] The more it happens, the less they worry about it. Because they figure out, they figure out the system of what is what is a real complaint brokers and so forth. And, you know, complaints they shouldn’t happen. But but you should think of them as part of the job. Now in UK dentistry, it’s easy for me to say I’m not practising anymore.

[00:33:26] And not even fair. Yeah, when I

[00:33:29] Was practising, when I was, I stopped practising 10 years ago. But when I was practising it, just this thing just wasn’t a big issue. You know, it wasn’t as big an issue as it is right now, and I know a lot of the younger dentists are stressing a lot and we’re about to do a whole mental health month invited talk to people about I know the number one cause of mental health problems in dentistry is patient complaints, so you should join that little walk we’ll talk about.

[00:33:55] Absolutely.

[00:33:56] So, OK, so you decided it damaged you. You thought irreversibly and and you decided you were going to pull away from dentistry and look at other avenues. Yes. Tell me about that story. So how did it, how did it? You know the confidence it takes? You know, we’ve only ever done dentistry, right?

[00:34:15] So that’s the hard part of it, because I ever I mean, anything I read in anything I learnt was for dentistry, for teeth, and I have a very good friend of mine, a very good friend of mine. Her name is Alex. And she she always says, like, but you have transferable skills, you know? I mean, I hear this so many times. I’m a bit tired of it. And she has a very good heart and she’s amazing and she’s very, very important to

[00:34:49] Me,

[00:34:50] But doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t want you content. No, she’s not the dentist, she’s a she’s a she’s she’s practising. She she worked for Facebook and now she’s on Amazon. Well, she’s a very good. She’s practising now to be a coach and to help you understand some like not a coach, like old coach, but like a really important one. She she helps people like high level CEOs and stuff to do.

[00:35:18] You do you believe that there aren’t some things about them to help you?

[00:35:22] Absolutely, they are. But tell me, because I applied to many jobs, especially when COVID hit, hit and stuff. Yeah. Who cares about them and who takes two three minutes to understand what my transferable skills are?

[00:35:39] You know, it’s a matter of marketing, though. Yes. Yeah. You know, I could put someone in front of you who will say stuff like, you know, as a dentist, I’ve had to learn complex things being under pressure. Yeah, exactly. Make people happy.

[00:35:53] Time management,

[00:35:54] You can, you know, the waste

[00:35:56] Management? Yeah.

[00:35:58] Although I can see you being the sort of very in the short time I’ve had with you, I can see you being this very sort of honest, to honest person.

[00:36:06] Maybe that’s my problem.

[00:36:07] Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:09] And you know, marketing is about first lying to yourself and then telling other people that lie

[00:36:17] Like,

[00:36:18] You mean, like, fake it until you make it kind of thing.

[00:36:21] But lying to yourself, you have to. You have to believe and in this new thing that you’re saying. And so that takes a degree of confidence. And, you know, I mean, lying is the wrong word for it. But it’s this present presenting it, presenting it to yourself in in in in a way that that makes sense to you. And then you can you can sell it to other people. Yes. But you know, again, in Dental school, we weren’t taught marketing either.

[00:36:47] So go on. No business skills, nothing but how to

[00:36:52] See what happened, what happened? Where did the flower thing come from? Had you done anything like that before or did you always want?

[00:36:58] Okay. So listen, I didn’t give up on dentistry very easily. I did. Well, first of all, with me, I didn’t give up at all. I haven’t given up yet, but no more than that. So I had another baby. I kept going. So I worked until I was pregnant. I went to work from London to Chichester on my eighth month of pregnancy every day for I love it. You know, I didn’t care. Yes, I didn’t want to leave my patients. I knew it was time for us to come back to London because things weren’t very good with my husband job. And we said, if we need opportunities, you need to be in London. So that was the reason it was a good choice for us. But that meant for four, until I got to my maternity leave, I had to travel. I think it was seven months, four days a week, sometimes

[00:37:45] Five London to

[00:37:47] Chichester, back and forth. But I loved it. It was home for me. You know, I really like that clinic. The staff was fantastic. The people at the CEO and stuff, amazing. I liked it. It worked for me. I had some, some freedom to learn stuff to use some materials. You know, you can’t as an associate, you don’t really have that all the time. So when I moved to London, I said, give please give me the opportunity to work in Fulham, in the Sainsbury’s one. And they they said yes, of course gone. I went not full time because, you know, I learnt my lesson. Let’s do it a bit more part time. I had a baby at home as well. So I started with two days. Of course I loved it. I always loved teeth and see patients, and I think talking with them and making them feel a bit better. It’s something that I really, really enjoy. So I start working there and at some point I think maybe they felt they have a little bit of problems with the with the overall organisation and they will have to sell. So they they wanted to sell the practise to me and I was I was ready to buy it. We started the papers. We’re starting everything, everything, everything and then the COVID hit

[00:39:00] And my

[00:39:00] Lawyers, I had a very nice lawyers and financial advisors was telling me, Alex, I do appreciate your enthusiasm to close this deal.

[00:39:10] But if

[00:39:11] Bigger

[00:39:12] Names in the

[00:39:13] Industry don’t buy that, they don’t buy anything at this moment, I can’t let you buy. It’s just not a good move for you.

[00:39:21] Well, that was bad advice. But yeah,

[00:39:24] I don’t know. You know, listen,

[00:39:27] Because I heard they heard about the prices that some of those scientific entities went it and they were bargains bargains.

[00:39:36] Yes. But there are many things that,

[00:39:38] You know,

[00:39:40] They aren’t out there. You can. You can, you can. I can

[00:39:44] Take you in private

[00:39:48] Because I was I was I wasn’t given a bargain deal. Yeah. I wasn’t I was I was given like a real deal, like call all your friends and family and borrow money to make this happen, and I was ready to make it happen. I almost did, but then I didn’t. So later on, they went into administration. I think that’s not a secret anymore, right out there.

[00:40:10] I guess it was after they went in administration that the bargains started happening.

[00:40:14] Exactly. Yeah. And I didn’t have a seat at that table, a death round table. There wasn’t a chair for me, so I didn’t. I didn’t get. But they understand. I mean, again, punched in the face takes some distance. You’re fine. And you know, everything stopped because COVID happened, so we couldn’t work anyway. Lockdown full time. I moved my mother in law. Bless her heart from France here to stay with my kids while I was taking over the clinic. I moved in freaking Chelsea. That is so expensive from Greenwich, so to be close to the clinic. So I I was motors on, you know, everything was on. Then everything

[00:40:55] Stopped backwards.

[00:40:57] Pay the lawyers, pay the financial advisers paid the family and friends back and stuff like that. And what do you do now? And I said, You know, my goodness, I’m sick of it, that I need something else, at least at least for for some time.

[00:41:10] And was in lockdown an opportunity to think?

[00:41:12] Yes, exactly.

[00:41:14] And were you in Chelsea at that point? I was.

[00:41:17] I was in Chelsea in a flat marina point in a flat

[00:41:21] Looking fantastic

[00:41:23] Flat. I mean, so expensive.

[00:41:25] I live in Fulham myself.

[00:41:27] Oh, I know, you know, I mean, yes,

[00:41:30] I’ve been to that

[00:41:31] Practise many times.

[00:41:32] Yes, it’s beautiful. I mean, I’m

[00:41:35] In North London now. So it’s like, whereabout in in W2, whether

[00:41:42] It was in your Hampstead. Oh, I yes. Yes, yes, it’s very near.

[00:41:46] I’m not in there. Yes, people don’t think I live in Hampstead. It’s not. It’s just like for you to know where is on the map

[00:41:54] Because I was

[00:41:54] In that one before I was, I was in Primrose Hill before.

[00:41:58] Oh, OK, so that’s that’s quite close to us. Ok, perfect. Perfect. Yes, so it’s a beautiful area, but you know, I turned my life upside down. My life gets my mother in law, kids, everybody likes to because they wanted to buy that clinic. It didn’t work out. Fine, move on. I was always very creative in my life. I do stuff every single day. I always tell my husband I need to do things with my hands. If something doesn’t come up from my

[00:42:24] Hands every day,

[00:42:26] Something is not right with me and I always like flowers and I always do nice arrangements, you know, for various and I said, Just go study them when you staying home anyway, just do something. So I went and did a florist design course with Judith Blacklock in Knightsbridge. I think it is, and I loved it. It was fantastic and I said, Well, maybe I can do something with it, you know? And slowly, slowly I started to understand the business and to see if I can do it. I don’t know yet, you know, if if I can do it, but I’m just doing it and we’ll see what happens. That kind of person is very,

[00:43:07] Very talented at it.

[00:43:08] I mean, I can’t I can’t just wait for having everything perfectly aligned for me to do something. So I just need to do something, you know?

[00:43:17] But I looked at your page and I’ve got some history in flower. My my mother did some flower arranging for a while, so I know it’s it’s much more involved subject than people realise.

[00:43:26] Oh, no,

[00:43:27] But your page is called flower sorry and

[00:43:30] Consultant

[00:43:31] Alex and Flower Land on Instagram. Everyone should go and have a look at that page because some of the work on this is really stunning. I mean, it’s I think as much as I’m telling you, don’t leave dentistry, I love what you’ve done on that in that area.

[00:43:44] Thank you.

[00:43:44] Thank you very much. I definitely found something there. You’ve definitely got some inspiration there. So as a business, as a as a job, I mean, it’s weird because

[00:43:53] There’s one thing you could the

[00:43:54] Job of being the person who puts the thing together. That’s one thing. But running a whole business around that is a whole other thing.

[00:44:02] Yes.

[00:44:03] So how far are you in that out?

[00:44:05] Are you just the person fixing the flower? Like doing the design?

[00:44:08] So I’m the person fixing the flowers. My husband is the person delivering the flowers because he knows how to drive. So he works. He works, he works from home now. He might travel soon. Like with his job, he works for Amazon, but he’s the my delivery guy. You know, I.

[00:44:23] So it is a business that is a business. It is not working for someone.

[00:44:26] It’s a no, no, no, no, no, it’s my business. I just need to to put more time and money in it just to to to grow it a little bit.

[00:44:37] So how are you getting customers from from that page,

[00:44:40] From that page, word of mouth, word of mouth? And they have some really nice neighbours around here that you know, Oh, I forgot this my my wife’s birthday. Can you bring me some flowers like and they.

[00:44:53] Yeah, and it’s very

[00:44:56] Nice, you know, it’s amazing, it’s tough, but it’s nice. So when I applied for the role at the Dorchester Hotel, I was really impressed that they called me for an interview, actually, because I have no experience in the proper floristry field. I just did some, I did some, some courses and I worked on my portfolio. Basically, I wanted them to see that I do stuff and it’s all my stuff, everything. It’s on Instagram. It’s my stuff. And it was fantastic. I mean, for me, it was like, Whoa, I can actually do something else and people do listen to me. But it’s it’s such a big shock when people ask me what I want. Why do you want to leave the industry? You know, because I mean, as you said, problem a bit too honest. Yeah, I can’t be either. I mean, I can’t fake anything, really. So, you know, I said, Well, I’m not really living like forever because I will always stay registered just in case, you know, something happens and I need to go back to it. But I would like to explore this part of me as well. And why not have something on the side? Because later on in my life as a dentist, I was educated at Listen, don’t put all the eggs in the basket. I don’t have the power to go on the estate and bitcoin and stuff like that, like all the wise people do, because I know zero about that stuff.

[00:46:18] But I said, I know

[00:46:19] Flowers now, so why not explore this part? So they took me on. It was fantastic. I did three months with them just because now I feel like I want to concentrate more on other things I saw behind the doors, you know, of a business of a luxury business, VIP clients, how to deal with them and stuff like that. It was a very enlightened experience for me.

[00:46:42] But also what you might find is that one day you open some very high end Dental clinic and the the the reason why it’s so high end is because you on the flower side, you you figured out some new skills around, you know, high end clients and making things beautiful and service. And you might it might end up that way. But I remember telling my parents I was going to stop being a dentist and they nearly had a heart attack. I mean, my my mom was particularly sad. I mean, almost like I was,

[00:47:16] I was sort of, you know, all the

[00:47:18] Work she’d put

[00:47:19] In. It’s almost been like a failure.

[00:47:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then there was I had this and I understood it and I and I was worried about it. And I always thought, Oh, I better just keep on doing. One day a week here, or two days a week, that still still continued. Being a dentist and then I had this sort of moment of clarity about, you know, it was actually my co-host was not here today, Prav, he said to me, Look, if you’re going to do this teeth whitening thing, you’ve got to really commit to it psychologically. And an I can’t see you committing to it psychologically until you stop being a dentist. And and he was a doctor himself, a top doctor. He was top of his class in Oxford, but he stopped doing that and he’s now doing marketing for dentists. And so because I trust him, I suddenly thought I had this moment of clarity that wait a minute if it all falls apart. Just go back and be a dentist.

[00:48:14] Yeah.

[00:48:14] And as a dentist, I can put food on the table for my family, even as a, you know, associate, you can do OK as an associate, right? You can, you can. You can do very well as an associate, by the way. So that’s something gave me the confidence to say, well, what is going to really just go for it? Yeah. Of course I’m

[00:48:32] Still in dentistry. As you can

[00:48:34] See, I’m

[00:48:36] Quite left dentistry now. I tell you what I’m very interested in. I gave up dentistry for five years. Then I went back and like you said, I really appreciated dentistry when I went back to it. Yes. And there was something about, you know, in outside, in this job, you know, selling stuff to dentists is a lot harder than selling stuff to patients. You know it by its very nature that the patients sitting in your chair. It’s already saying, I trust you. You know, whereas dentists, you know, we’re trained to say, Hey, why? How, you know, just be sceptical about.

[00:49:13] Yes. Like, make me buy it. You know, the prove it to prove it.

[00:49:17] Yes. Where are the papers? Yeah. Where are the

[00:49:19] Papers?

[00:49:20] And so just the more difficult I found it more difficult anyway. Right now, I don’t. But back then, back then I definitely found it more difficult. So then when I went back to being a dentist again, the relationships, meeting people, the number of people you meet as a dentist,

[00:49:37] You know, 10 or

[00:49:38] 12 or 15 people a day you meet. Yeah, when you’re in it, you’re like, God, I wish there were less of them here. But when you when you’re out of it, when I’m in my office, the same 40 people, by the way, we’re all working from home now. So I don’t see those people even know. I don’t have the same sort of influence, the same influences coming into me. Yes. And then from the work perspective, when I went back, I sort of was just sticking to the bits of it that I really liked. You know, I didn’t do any endo didn’t do any kids. No, no full mouth stuff. You know, I was basically preaching and bonding. So I’d like to hear your your reflections when, you know, does it make dentistry more attractive once you left a little bit?

[00:50:25] I wasn’t I.

[00:50:26] I was the kind of general dentist. I have a very active conscience, so if I know I can’t handle 100 percent a procedure, I won’t offer it myself. Yeah. So the way I work as a dentist and I’m very serious about this was multidisciplinary with Centre for Dentistry offered me that I had a fantastic indoor guy, a fantastic pathologist and the surgeon, of course. So I basically I was like this dentist that was orchestrating all the treatments. Yes. Discussing with the patient because my appointments were generous enough to offer the patients all kinds of information they needed. So they will go and see Dental guy and see what he can do and then see the pathologist and then decide what’s the best approach for him financially and not just financially to do the treatment. And because I did this kind and it’s not a defence defensive, I think it’s called yes, dentistry, it’s what I think it’s fair to offer to my patients. Yeah, the Pennsylvania. Yeah, in Romania, we have a you can be a specialist in cardiology, and I think kings are doing something now like a master.

[00:51:46] She’s doing it. Yeah.

[00:51:47] Yes. So I might look into that. But in Romania, I was always fascinated about these professors that was teaching us how

[00:51:55] To deal with with the

[00:51:57] Dental decay, which was the number one disease at that time in the world, affecting so many people. And I said this, and I’m happy to do that. I’m comfortable

[00:52:06] In this, in this seat

[00:52:07] Where I am. And I was always telling my patients, do I know how to do an end or treatment? I do. Do I do it better than a specialist? Never do. I want you to have the best treatment I do. So if you want and if you trust me, you need to go and see a specialist for this treatment. So we’re friends until the end of the treatment and afterwards.

[00:52:28] And it was working

[00:52:30] Fantastic and this is how I work now. Every time I see a patient with a very difficult case, but I always bring all the team in. So I send them everywhere and they send them back to me and said, OK, now we can do this and now we can take the. And I love it. I think this is beautiful. And just like you, I enjoy what I’m doing. So I didn’t change anything. What I did before because I was scared or is just is the bad memories that are keep coming back to me. But when I’m with the patient, I don’t know if you have this. I always tell my husband, like when I’m thinking about something I need to do, I always find it difficult in actually doing it. Yeah, I don’t know if I’m funny or other people. That’s true. But when I’m in the clinic, that’s it, I’m I’m like someone else, you know? I know exactly what I need to do. I never let my patients, you know, Oh my gosh, she’s not very confident on that kind of, even if I’m not confident in what I specifically tell them like about the diagnostic and I, I always talk with them like, Listen, I know what I’m saying, and then I send them to other people to to take them out and stuff because I think that’s very important. So I don’t have a problem with that. But I think probably I

[00:53:44] Was working a bit

[00:53:46] Too much and I was always afraid that I would do a mistake, you know? Of course I did mistakes. I mean, yes, I did. I mean, at some point there was I was working without. I was polishing feeling on a patient and I touched the sublingual mucosa. And it just, you know, it opens up like beautifully, like a big mouth. I said,

[00:54:08] Ok.

[00:54:09] And I said to the patient, I was very calm. I had the brilliant nurse and I said, Can I have some stitches, please? And I just ditch it out. And I talked to the patient. I said, This is what happened. It can happen. I’m sorry for it. Next time, I will be more careful. Put it in the notes and everything was fine. She was very happy. She never even thought because she was still numb, you know? But you need, you know, do you take out the rubber? Damn, you want to do your fantastic polishing and stuff? And that happened. Whatever. So I do mistakes. I do mistakes. But having always a team in the support system at home with the clinic anywhere I am, that helps me the best because I don’t think we can do anything by ourselves, really. So that’s why that’s why I went on Facebook and wrote that post. Because I want people, because I’m I’m I’m very lucky to have people to talk with. I’m very I’m very grateful for you to take time to talk with me right now. But somewhere, somewhere in the house in a flat, there’s a dentist dealing with so much trouble. There’s nothing to talk with. And he said, or she says, Well, who I am to, to ask Payman to talk with me or Alex or whoever that is. You know,

[00:55:19] You make a brilliant point. You make it pretty important. I mean, I’d say the number one learning from all of this is talk to someone. Yes. And by the way, if you don’t feel like you know anyone these days, at least we have things like coffee Dental. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that.

[00:55:34] That’s that’s the thing I never heard of.

[00:55:36] That dentist can call up and talk to another dentist, and you know,

[00:55:40] It’s brilliant

[00:55:40] Going. If they’re going through something we know in our in our profession, it can get stressful beyond stressful, stressful to the point that people do the worst things, you know, and it’s something that we need to always look out for. And you had your husband and you talk to people, but you know, I just talking to you. I just think it would be a real shame if you if you don’t practise dentistry. I think, like I say, I think we need more dentists like you. People who are enthusiastic want to do the best for the patient. And I think so. In your case, you should wait until you kind of get over that,

[00:56:16] That trauma that you have. Yes, I’m I’m much better now.

[00:56:21] Keep going. Like, like, I gave up dentistry by mistake, not on purpose.

[00:56:25] You know

[00:56:26] How damp it’s like, how do I still work,

[00:56:31] Dentist? I adore being dentists a lot,

[00:56:35] By the way,

[00:56:36] Now that I’m not a dentist, there are some things that are much better about not being a dentist. Things like that. I don’t want to turn up, you know? Yeah. Turning up is a real pain for me. Like I like to some nights like tonight, I might decide to stay up till three a.m.. Yeah, if I had an eight o’clock patient tomorrow morning, that would be impossible. But but where I am at right now, I could do fine.

[00:56:59] We can talk until tomorrow.

[00:57:03] But what I’m saying is I definitely wasn’t one of those guys who hated dentistry and had to find something else to do and found this. And then I left it. That wasn’t my situation. My situation was this. This opportunity came along. It suddenly became so busy that there was no way of being a dentist. So, so, you know, I had to pull out of it.

[00:57:21] I never hated dentistry.

[00:57:23] You know, you love it.

[00:57:24] You love it more than I loved it.

[00:57:26] I will never be able in my life to hate dentistry you love. I will never be able to do that. I love dentistry, and I think it’s it’s other dentists probably have. This too is not that you hate it or you don’t want to do it. Is that that concern that you might hurt someone, you know? Yeah. And you don’t want that because you care too much.

[00:57:49] You know, I special

[00:57:51] Person I like, I like, I like where you’re coming from. I like, you’re very special person to be.

[00:57:55] I think I think you think, you know, I’m not sure if it works like in my

[00:58:00] Advance, but I’m just

[00:58:02] I’m just saying like probably my fear was coming from what? What if I really make a mistake and I hurt someone

[00:58:10] That’s a medical.

[00:58:10] That’s a medical thing anyway, right? Fear of messing up, I mean, I used to have that fear when I did my oral surgery job and I really wasn’t qualified enough for the job, but they throw you in and suddenly you’re in A&E stitching up someone’s face for the first time in your life. And, you know, like, that’s a child or whatever, and you’re stitching it up, you know? Yeah, but but medicine is that way inclined. You know, we learn by

[00:58:34] Doing a lot of times,

[00:58:36] You know, that’s what it is. You love dentistry. You love dentistry. So obvious. You love dentistry.

[00:58:42] Yeah. I wasn’t expecting.

[00:58:44] I wasn’t expecting this conversation at all. I was expecting to say, I hate it.

[00:58:48] No hate is not a word in my vocabulary. I don’t think I hate anything. It hate is a very strong word for me. It needs to be like, maybe I don’t like guns. They might say, I hate guns, but the way maybe we use it, because guns doesn’t have to be all negative, you can still have some fun with them. You don’t have to point them another person. You know, it’s the way you use what you have, and I will never be able to hate dentistry. But what I what’s the point I really want to make and to stress out is

[00:59:21] That I really

[00:59:23] Need I mean, I was fantasising when I was dealing with this complaint. Having like because I wasn’t like, you know, new to Dental is being sued and stuff. In your case, I wasn’t like a snowflake that doesn’t know that I was aware of that. However, I didn’t see any movement towards changing that in the profession, and I apologise if there’s something happening that I’m not aware of. Moving into that direction, I really apologise for that if I’m not educated enough. But I didn’t feel like if I would speak up at that moment because I was frustrated and I didn’t want that to happen to me. You know, it was my very first job and nobody freaking told me that I need to be careful of that. I was so upset, you know, and I feel like, OK, if I go and speak out, they will back up. But I didn’t feel like it, you know, because I was reading like for dentist by dentist and all these groups that are fantastic.

[01:00:22] It wasn’t.

[01:00:23] It was never a follow up. You know, you hear like, complain, complain, complain. But what happened? I mean, how did you deal with like in a really good movie and the power cuts out, you know, and you’re like, come on.

[01:00:35] Like, what happened, you know,

[01:00:37] To to give me the confidence to give me the confidence,

[01:00:41] You know, to

[01:00:41] Come, OK, listen, people, this happened. Like, What do I do? Do you have that kind of attitude towards it? And I think this is this is what I did know how to do it, but hopefully I will be able to do it at some point to to raise some awareness. Yes, if you want to leave the profession

[01:00:58] Because you don’t like

[01:01:00] It, fine, just do it. But again, awareness that is tough is tough to go and start from the bottom. In any other profession, it’s tough to take that pay cut. It’s tough because it it will affect your family. If you have one it, it will affect you if you have one. Because if you if you’re used to a big income, if their realities and I feel like sometimes we tend to make everything like to sugar coat like Willy Wonka, you know, we don’t get to do really discussions and conversations from the heart like, what do you really feel without,

[01:01:34] You know,

[01:01:34] Without being judgemental and stuff?

[01:01:38] So this is this is what I

[01:01:40] Would like at some point. I mean, you’re much more experienced in denial. I mean, podcast and stuff like this, you know, like, I mean, if you would see everybody, if you see my on my tablet is sitting now, you will like, laugh out loud like it’s ridiculous. So obviously you have the gear and you have everything you need to make this happen. But I feel like there’s a there’s a need for this kind of this conversation. More Dental. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And even publicly, because sometimes I mean, I had patients, I was telling them, you know, I might leave patients that are closer to me, like, but why? I mean, you’re so good. You don’t seem like you’re stressed. Like, Well, of course I’m not. I don’t want to show you that because you wouldn’t

[01:02:21] Open your mouth. No, I come on. I don’t want to waste my time.

[01:02:25] But still, it’s a stressful job. And you know what? I think most of the people complaining about dentists have no idea what this profession is like.

[01:02:36] Alex isn’t flower arranging a stressful job?

[01:02:39] Oh, it’s very stressful. I mean, mess up a bride’s bouquet at that time.

[01:02:45] We go back to messing up weddings.

[01:02:47] But yeah, exactly.

[01:02:48] But different because it’s something that you can easily replace. But if you affect the person in in an appearance and we work with mouth, we work with teeth between your heart and your brain and it’s in their in their face. It’s so much personal, you know, it’s you can’t hide from it, you know? I mean, you need to have a vocation. You need. It needs to be your vocation to be a dentist. So I think, like you said, maybe you think I’m a brilliant dentist? I might be, but

[01:03:20] There are so thousands

[01:03:22] Of them out there saying like, but I’m not good enough, especially if they have complaints that went on and on and did involving and stuff like that. I think we need something to support these people, you know,

[01:03:34] To to

[01:03:34] People for these people to understand. Listen, you’re not alone. It’s messy. It’s ugly, but you are not alone. And look, this is a system to help you deal with

[01:03:45] It and stuff

[01:03:46] Like that.

[01:03:47] I think the thing about making mistakes here is that, look, I’m not the best dentist. You’re not the best dentist, right? Yeah. Then there’s the guy who’s better than me and you. Yeah, I don’t know. Tiff Qureshi, whatever the famous dentist. Yeah. Then there’s a limit to his

[01:04:03] Understanding here,

[01:04:04] So he could do something that the guy above him would say was a mistake. Yes. Yeah. Basil Mizrahi. These must be the top dentists in the UK. Yeah, yeah. But there’s a guy in Switzerland somewhere better than Basil was right? And he’ll say what he’s doing is wrong. And this this notion of making a mistake. Yeah, there’s one type of mistake which is like, OK, your drill drops and and hits one of those sort of incidents, which is, you know, that’s irrelevant type of incident, right? There’s another type of mistake, which is a decision making mistake. You know, you decided to go down this plan and it was the wrong thing decision to make, which I say a more serious kind of mistake. But nonetheless, I’m at my level. You’re at your level and it goes on and on and every single person has a dentist better than them, you know? So it’s just the reality of of life.

[01:04:58] And then the main mistake?

[01:05:00] Yeah, it’s like a patient management mistake. Yeah, where the patient lose this trust and it’s been shown a million times know the patients who sue are the ones who don’t like their doctor. You can make massive mistakes on people. If your patient likes you, he’s not going to sue you, for instance. Yeah, yes. Well, any sort of management mistake.

[01:05:24] The problem is

[01:05:25] When when it goes to a complaint, it starts to question, I can see someone like you like. You’re not your typical kind of, you know, trying to buy your

[01:05:32] Ferrari dentist

[01:05:34] Here. Someone like, you know, who’s giving, you know, who wants to be someone who contributes, who wants to be someone who, you know, you said fairness is your number one thing when a patient comes with a problem. Most dentists think, Well, that problem is worth to me

[01:05:47] £2000 or twenty three

[01:05:49] Thousand pounds. You’re thinking, who’s the best person for the endo? The best person for the Crown’s the best person and just orchestrating that that whole thing?

[01:05:58] Yes.

[01:06:00] So you know, what I’m saying is most, most times people, people like you shouldn’t be leaving our profession. What should it be leaving our profession? Should I be leaving our profession? I keep coming back to that. Yeah. But but you know, a management mistake can can do that. We shouldn’t, shouldn’t focus on mistakes, you know, although by the way, this podcast does, this podcast has that question. What was your biggest mistake? But I guess you’ve answered that for me. Let’s let’s move on. Let’s move on because I’m very interested in everything that you said there. Do you now feel more confident as

[01:06:38] A human now that you’ve learnt

[01:06:40] A second skill? Or do you see it like a hobby?

[01:06:47] I think like another passion of mine. I don’t see it like a hobby. It’s more than a hobby because it’s like it’s other things involved in it. You know, you need to to. I mean, I guess you put money in hobbies as well. I don’t usually do that unless it’s like, I

[01:07:02] Don’t know, going to a good music

[01:07:03] Or something, which I think it’s something I enjoy as a hobby, you know? But I think it’s more than that. I don’t know if learning a new skill made me confident,

[01:07:15] But the new

[01:07:17] Skill took the attention away from the initial skill, which helped me cleared my mind. So when I went back to it, I said, Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, everybody. I’m actually a good dentist. And when I went back in the practise and my good friend, I work in a clinic in Watford. Now it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a very nice clinic, quite new one. And I saw that OK. And the patients are it’s like for me, they’re all the same. I never think like these patients like that. These patients like that when someone comes in, I just I’m the same with everyone, you know? And I think that whenever the fog goes

[01:07:55] Away and you go back

[01:07:56] With, you know, a new fresh, it’s like coming back from the holy day. It’s everything changes. Yeah. So I think it’s very important to have something else. People are running. I don’t run. People are going to the gym. I don’t do that. I do I’d like to do yoga and stuff to relax myself, you know, but that didn’t help me mentally to maybe I’m not, I’m not doing it right, you know, mentally didn’t

[01:08:22] Help my heels. I needed help. You not breathing, right? Yes, I wasn’t breathing right. I wasn’t sucking

[01:08:29] My tummy or something like that, but focussing, OK, I need to do that to get better. I need to learn about flowers. I need to. When I went back to dentistry, it was, Oh, I know so many things about this and I’m so good at it. You know, back

[01:08:44] In your comfort zone again, wasn’t it?

[01:08:46] Yeah, it’s like a comfort zone, but not just dad, but you want to improve it, you know when you’re enjoying it more? Yeah. So I think the best advice that I got was like, Don’t do it full time because you’re going to get burnout, especially when you’re when you’re just entering it. You know, you want to do everything. You want to please everyone. You don’t want to say no to no patients and stuff like that. But now I do it and enjoy it at the same time, you know, I never, ever and never in my life. I hope I won’t ever think, Oh, OK, this patient has this problem. So that means two pounds and stuff. I’m not built that way. Probably that’s why maybe I’m not a good business person and stuff, but I can’t, especially when it comes with someone that is in pain, that heaven has teeth that can’t smile properly. It hurts my heart that my goodness, I have everything. I need to fix it and I can’t because they can’t pay it. You know, it’s ridiculous that I find ridiculous.

[01:09:44] So I can’t

[01:09:45] I can’t think about patients like money providers for me. Of course, I’m not a pretty naive, you know, to see like, OK, I’ll do it because it’s not my clinic. I can’t do that. And if I would do that, it’s not OK. Even if it’s my clinic, you know, because you still have some, some responsibilities towards your family and to yourself, right? And it’s not just right to to give people something just like that. We all do charity stuff because, you know, it’s in our human nature to do it, but it’s impossible to do it all the time. So I will never think about dentistry like, Oh, I can make so much money, I can buy a Ferrari or stuff. I don’t even try, so I don’t need it. But I want to help people and I want to help dentists. And I just wanted to talk with people, you know, to make them understand this is not the end of the world. And even if it is, it’s fine. It’s, you know, I have a really favourite thing like if I reached the bottom, it’s the best place you can be because it’s just like in a particular way. You just put you just, you know, go towards the surface with like more speed than ever. It takes more to think. But when you get, you just go out there and it’s not going to happen overnight and stuff. But it’s going to happen eventually

[01:11:03] To some advice to someone who’s now looking at going out of their comfort zone into another profession or another area, and it’s lost for confidence.

[01:11:18] I think they should try it. We always think like, Oh, I can’t

[01:11:23] Do it, I can’t

[01:11:25] Do it, I can’t do any, I can’t do that, I can’t do that. You can do it if you want to do it or if you really, really want to do it because I I don’t miss doing an end or treatment. I don’t even want to hear about it. You know, I’m happy when the patients come back and it’s done and dealt with, and it’s beautiful and you know, it’s microscope and stuff. Fantastic. I mean, I can talk about it with the patient. It’s like, Whoa, my gosh, this is the best treatment ever, you know? But if you want to do something and you don’t have confidence, just do it. And you see, because this friend of mine, Alex, is really good, I don’t know how she put it, but she said it’s not even confidence. It’s all the layers underneath, right? It’s like to educate yourself is to push yourself. Because if you ask, Oh, please, I want to have like more confidence, OK, how do we get confidence? Will you put yourself in uncomfortable situations? And if you get that, OK, I did this and then I did that, and then I did that. You get more confidence. Well, maybe the fourth thing you’re going to do is not going to seem as hard as the first three ones.

[01:12:30] And I mean, going for your first flower job? Hmm. Did it feel the same as going for your first Dental job and sort of know not knowing?

[01:12:40] Absolutely not, no. How did

[01:12:42] It feel?

[01:12:43] No, it feels. It feels nice. You know, it’s I don’t like this word nice because it’s so vast. I mean, I don’t know what knife is. It feels it feels good when you complete a work. I mean, I did a waiting for a friend and she was very happy. It was very you take that. It’s very rewarding, you know? But what what dentistry gives me is amazing because you have all these yet like you spreading yourself, you know, to all these people that and if you help them and most of the time you do, some of them are very grateful. Some of them are grateful, but they don’t show it. Some of them are grateful and don’t want to show it. It’s still happening and it’s still coming back to you in in a way or another.

[01:13:27] So I think I always tell

[01:13:29] My husband because every time in December, you know, since everything is like, Do I keep on the register? Or I don’t? I always stay on the register, you know, but it’s always that question. And I think I read about other people having that dilemma, too every December. But I always stay on because, you know what? I always want to be able to go back to it.

[01:13:54] I stopped 10 years ago, and I’m still on the register. Good for you. I even paid my my indemnity for like maybe 15 years after I was like, Wow, it was weird. I was like, OK, just in case.

[01:14:07] Kind of just in case.

[01:14:08] Yes, yes. But then it turned out I didn’t need to. So I wasted a bunch of money there. Yeah. All right. I think we’re coming to the end of our time, but we always end these podcasts with the same two questions. Yeah. The first one is. You’re on your deathbed. You’re surrounded by your kids, which I should have asked about your kids, but you’re

[01:14:37] Fine, you’re

[01:14:38] Surrounded by your kids, your loved ones, your parents, whatever you loved people, people that you love most in the world. What are three bits of advice you would give them? And the world

[01:14:48] Does stuff I never thought about my deathbed.

[01:14:51] Ok, don’t focus on the death part. Just the three bits of advice.

[01:14:58] Two, I want them to be happy to go do stuff and like to travel. Travel not to get stuck. I have a thing I don’t get attached to, I don’t miss. I mean, I’m sorry for all the Romanians listening. I don’t miss my country because if I have my family with me, you know, my kids and my husband, my husband is my soulmate. We are together since forever 20 years, married for 10. I have my support system with me. I don’t need anything else so I can

[01:15:32] Move on and don’t get

[01:15:35] This stuff. I do know things that

[01:15:39] You know you don’t want to wait you down.

[01:15:41] Yeah, yeah. I don’t get attached to things, but I love having an impact on people. So I think invest in people and travel to meet those people that might need your help and just try to be happy and enjoy this life, you know, because it’s just I know it sounds like a cliche, but just enjoy it every single day. Try to do something new and a little bit to to push yourself, you know, to to do something new and just just enjoy the rewards. You know, that comes with anything. Just enjoy it. I think that’s really important.

[01:16:15] I love that. I love that. And the final question. Yeah. Fantasy dinner party.

[01:16:25] A fantasy dinner party

[01:16:28] For three guests. Yeah. Dead or alive.

[01:16:33] Who would you have?

[01:16:38] Yes, tough.

[01:16:40] And so he’s just me with three people that I want. Yeah.

[01:16:44] You want your husband that, you

[01:16:46] Know, just, yeah, your husband’s your husband’s around, OK? He he he’s busy.

[01:16:53] Yeah, he’s working also.

[01:16:56] I would love like I would love maybe a celebrity, but I don’t have any ideals, I’m not crazy about people.

[01:17:01] What about when you were a kid? Did you not have like an idol, Celebrity Idol?

[01:17:06] I did not. Oh, I see. That’s sad, right? No, I don’t scream when I see a band I don’t get nothing sad about. Hmm. It’s very tough for me, I don’t know.

[01:17:18] Definitely, definitely a perfectionist.

[01:17:21] No, no, no. You don’t have to give the perfect answer. Look up to people.

[01:17:25] It’s not because I don’t look up.

[01:17:26] It doesn’t have to be an idol. It could be. But you know, it could be, you know, Shakespeare, your grandmother and you know what I mean? It could be. It could be anyone.

[01:17:36] Ok. Well, I don’t want anyone in the family. They know a lot about them. I would think maybe someone with a lot of influence like someone.

[01:17:49] Like. Obama. No, no.

[01:17:55] Well, I would like. Listen, I

[01:17:58] Would like to have dinner instead of three people, maybe I would like to have dinner with. I mean, it’s a stupid answer, but please forgive me. I would like to have dinner with Kate Middleton.

[01:18:10] Sure. Why is that stupid?

[01:18:12] I don’t know. I mean, it’s a cliche, right? I mean, with all this royal drama and stuff, but I would like to have dinner with someone that has

[01:18:19] Why you want to actually find out what it’s like in the palace or whatever

[01:18:22] What it’s like, but only if she’s allowed to talk stuff with me. You know, like, she’s like, Yeah, yeah, I would definitely

[01:18:29] Like to to have

[01:18:31] Because Dorchester was the same, you know, a very interesting world for me with the luxurious VIP people and stuff like that. I want to be a fly on the

[01:18:42] Wall like in that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:18:45] Like ta ta ta. Yeah. And I think she’s quite a decent person and she’s like a nice, you know, I wouldn’t feel I mean, again, I don’t want to sound stupid. I wouldn’t feel intimidated to have a conversation with her. You know, I

[01:18:59] Think she was a regular person before she married the

[01:19:02] What’s his name? No, I think she’s she’s quite she has Royal

[01:19:07] Connexions, maybe, you know, but you know more about it than

[01:19:09] I do. But yeah, I think she seems like a normal person.

[01:19:12] Yeah, yeah. Well, she’s coming from a very rich family. So obviously the royal family, it’s better.

[01:19:19] But you know, she was used to do the good stuff.

[01:19:23] But what I always fantasise about is not like dinner or talk. It’s just I don’t even want to do to have conversation, but to be a fly on the wall like when something important happens to see.

[01:19:35] Even because I’m going, I’m going on a podcast, coming up and reactants podcast. I’m the guest. And he’s already told me that one of his questions, his final question is Where do you want to be a fly on the wall? During which? Which situation? Yes, I was thinking, You know, Cuban Missile Crisis. You know that the guy who was ordered to shoot to kill JFK, you know that guy, that moment,

[01:19:58] You haven’t worked

[01:19:59] It out yet. That sounds like boyish stuff.

[01:20:01] I would be like, it’s like. Of course.

[01:20:04] I mean, I would like to be more like, you know, like a little dramatic situations, you know, like at the palace or when something really exciting happens

[01:20:13] Like,

[01:20:14] You know, Harry’s wife, Markle. What’s or something?

[01:20:17] Meghan Markle? No, I’m not interested.

[01:20:20] No, no. When there was that little argument between Kate and Meghan, that’s the last one.

[01:20:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:20:26] So that kind of things I would like or, you know, it was always fascinating about even dentists. I’m I’m following a dentist in Boston.

[01:20:36] He’s very good,

[01:20:37] And I always look at her and I, you know, she’s with this Instagram and stuff. Everybody has a lot of stories where they share a lot of things. Oh my gosh, I’m like, I’m I’m drooling over those stories because it’s fantastic

[01:20:49] To to

[01:20:50] Be able to be there. And during COVID, even in here in UK, I had so much access to see what other people do and even people like you, you know, that had so many experiences chose to open up those doors. You know, it’s like, I don’t know, very exclusive

[01:21:08] Clubs where you don’t

[01:21:09] Get in, you don’t get it. And that’s it, you know, so being able to get, you know, get into it. Yes, I would like to.

[01:21:18] Definitely I’m not letting you off with that. You need to continue and give me two more.

[01:21:22] Two more people. Yeah. Wow.

[01:21:26] Hmm.

[01:21:28] So, Kate Middleton.

[01:21:32] Was Ceausescu’s wife called she used to?

[01:21:35] Yeah. No, you I don’t even know, but no, I mean, are you taking anything before your time? Maybe I would manage co-manage.

[01:21:50] Nadia Comaneci

[01:21:51] Yeah.

[01:21:52] Know before you type, I would get all these people before your time. But.

[01:21:58] Maybe I would go with like I would like to meet and have dinner with Celine Dion. Oh, I think, yeah, I think she was one of the artists that I was. Oh, Celine Dion, you know, I would get a bit nervous if I would

[01:22:11] If she was her. Yeah, yes.

[01:22:13] Exactly what a policy Kate Middleton, Celine

[01:22:16] Dion and I definitely need to choose a man, so we balance it out with balancing out.

[01:22:21] Well, it can be one of those sex and the city like girly parties, you know, it doesn’t have to be a man.

[01:22:26] Oh, the Parker. I never watched sex in the City

[01:22:29] And it’s like, you know, for women, whatever.

[01:22:31] Oh, I know who I want to meet and I want, you know what? I don’t want to meet Celine Dion.

[01:22:39] I changed my mind. Well, you can have me.

[01:22:41] Oh, good. I want to meet and to have a conversation with Jerry Seinfeld. I am upset a bit with Jerry Seinfeld. Did you watch the sitcom?

[01:22:52] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness.

[01:22:55] Like when me and my husband and we have a conversation like about kids, it’s always lines from Jerry Seinfeld. We can have a full day conversation only using lines in Jerry. It’s amazing. So I love that show. I would, because he’s fantastic. I think he’s very smart. He’s a very good businessman, is an extraordinary businessman. He did coffee. Comedians in cars getting coffee. Did you watch that on Netflix? No, you should. I mean, when I used to

[01:23:24] Watch kerb your enthusiasm a lot and that had something to do with Seinfeld.

[01:23:28] I didn’t watch that. Wash it.

[01:23:30] What’s it? You like it? Ok? Or maybe you. Or maybe you were. But what’s the coffee? One celebrity is having a coffee.

[01:23:37] Comedians in cars, getting coffees. Getting coffee with Jerry Seinfeld. So he chews. He choose a lot of celebrities. He they he chooses a car based on what I think their personality is, and they go and have coffee. And it’s hilarious. I mean, it’s just jokes and sarcasm and stuff, which is fantastic. So that’s it, I.

[01:24:00] Well, the good news is you can have all three because it’s three guests.

[01:24:03] Yeah, OK. But just in case someone pulls out, I’m fine. If Jerry Seinfeld

[01:24:08] Comes,

[01:24:10] We finally found your idol.

[01:24:13] Yeah, yeah.

[01:24:14] I wouldn’t say an idol, but definitely something I look I would like to meet. I don’t know if I would be able to have a conversation with him.

[01:24:23] I know you’ll be fine. You’d be fine. I could see

[01:24:25] Very

[01:24:26] Smart and he knows so many things and he’s has so much money. Oh my gosh, he’s so I think he’s the richest comedian ever.

[01:24:33] Well, you picked three very, very, very rich people.

[01:24:36] So that’s Google. Yeah.

[01:24:39] So if by any time you know in your life, if you ever get to meet Jerry Seinfeld, say hi.

[01:24:47] I mean, I’m sure you

[01:24:51] Have better chances than me. You know, funny story. When I did my shadowing in Harley Street and this dentist I worked for, she used to see Jo Martindale, which is like a it’s like a D.J.. It’s called like when you do this music for crowds and they just dance like for many, many hours on the same tune or something. And he wasn’t famous. I don’t know if he’s famous here, but on his Facebook, like he’s exploding and stuff. And I said, Listen, Joe, please, like whenever you become famous, you know, because I was, it was asking people coming on Harley Street in my naivete and people that were having conversations with me like how

[01:25:30] Famous I feel.

[01:25:31] And he was like, No, I’m not famous yet, but listen, I’m doing this music and I’m going to sonic stage and stuff in the US. And I have like a tourist. Whenever you become famous, please remember me because I was here when you had your treatment done and stuff, and I was like sucking your saliva out and stuff. And later on, he became famous. Know, sometimes occasionally I have patients that they work with, like a little bit of people, high end people, you know, and say, Listen, you might get famous because I had people that got famous before,

[01:26:02] So it remembered me, you know? Yeah, they never do. But you know, it’s funny. Yeah, he’s very funny.

[01:26:08] It’s like when when my friends are looking like their companies are about to be sold, you know, I mean, I remember me,

[01:26:17] So I’m happy. I’m not the only one.

[01:26:20] It’s not because they want their money. Just to make sure you remember me. I had something to

[01:26:24] Do with you eventually. You know, I want to

[01:26:26] Be I want to be at that party, that first party after they’ve sold their companies. I want to be.

[01:26:32] Absolutely, absolutely.

[01:26:34] But it’s been absolutely lovely having you and

[01:26:37] Thank you for having

[01:26:38] Me. Something different, actually, because normally we’re talking to dentists about their careers and how they’re going to make their careers better and all that. But I would say we’ve done, I don’t know. I think we’re on 112 episodes. I talked to a few dentists now,

[01:26:52] Maybe

[01:26:52] The one that I would say is the best. Then the one. The one, the one who. I would like to be a dentist more than anyone else. Honestly, I mean it. I mean, I’ve been interviewing something that the top dentist in the world, but it’s really beautiful, really refreshing to hear it from you the way that you said it. So thank you for taking the time and

[01:27:13] Thank you so much.

[01:27:16] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:27:32] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] Now, a lot of what I do in all of my drive is, is because, you know what my parents have gone through to get rid of today. I can never match up to that, no matter how good of a dentist I become or how much I achieve in my life, nothing’s going to be harder than what they’ve gone through. What previous immigrants and refugees have gone through when you go to war, seeing people get killed or all of that horrific kind of moments and took your life, it’s when you’ve gone through that and you come into a new country and given a second chance, you embrace it and do the best you can do to be the best you can be. So although these people at the moment right now, some may have education, some may not. I’m so sure that the ones without education when they come here, they’re not going to be sitting on their homes watching TV or anything like that. They’re going to be working as hard as they can because they know they’ve been given a second chance in life and they’re going to work as hard as they can to to be able to provide and give back to the country they’re in and also to provide a better life for them in their families.

[00:00:55] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry, your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:12] It gives me great pleasure to welcome Dr. Janet Dental onto the podcast. Jan has been on my radar for a while. One of these guys who’s got the sort of burning ambition to make a difference in the world is the way I see it. This young dentist who’s already achieved so much content creator. I’m pretty jealous about some of the people you’ve interviewed, actually, but people, people who didn’t respond to

[00:01:38] Me

[00:01:40] On your show. Award winning young dentist of the Year London marketing expert will get into that digital marketing done a lot in your in your young life. Jenna. Lovely to have you, Payman.

[00:01:54] Thank you so much. I’m a huge fan of you, your work and your podcast and truly humbled to be here with you.

[00:02:00] Cool. Jenna, you had a very unconventional childhood. We were talking about it before. Tell us about, you know, your early life and how you ended up as a dentist.

[00:02:12] Sure. So my early life, I probably have to start with saying that I was born here in London, UK, but my parents, they actually come from a little island off the northern coast of Sri Lanka. It’s a long story to to get to where I am today, but their journey is much more interesting than mine. They both come from different socioeconomic classes. My my mum was actually born in a mud hut and raised in a very big family. It’s kind of like one of those movies you see where you see these villages and tribal people. When I went back to Sri Lanka and she showed me, it was pretty much just like that. So my mum was born there. My dad was born in a slightly wealthier family, actually. His dad had grocery shops in the mainland of Sri Lanka. And when my dad’s dad had my dad being the oldest of the sons of the family, his job was to look after the shops and he was doing very well and he was living life enjoying it over there. Unfortunately, however, in the early nineteen eighties there was a civil war in Sri Lanka, and when the war happened, the Sinhalese mobs and governments they attacked, burnt down and killed Tamils and Tamil Tamil owned businesses in the process. So everything my dad’s dad and my dad had was actually burnt down to the ground. He lost everything. Thankfully, thankfully, he wasn’t hurt, but a lot of other Tamil people were killed. But the situation of my dad was he was left with nothing. Didn’t have any education because he dropped out of school to look after the shops. So when both my mum and dad were caught up in the Civil War on CROSSFIRE, it wasn’t safe, and they both seek asylum to move outside of Sri Lanka and both ended up in London.

[00:03:45] How was the story of how did they actually get to London?

[00:03:48] That was a very long story, you know? My dad was like, Don’t tell people how I did it because I didn’t think was most to do so. But my dad had to come to to France and then from France to London like he was, he was homeless in France. He was sleeping in temples. My mother went through with her family. It was all you know, in the eighties, they all you can ask any refugee from the 80s, there was a very long kind of process to do so. But you know, thankfully both of them ended up in London. They both met here, and that’s when they started their journey. They didn’t know the culture, they didn’t know the language, but they both, you know, worked hard to get to where they are now.

[00:04:25] China, in the era of Boris Johnson and Trump and all that, it’s fashionable to sort of knock refugees a lot. But when you when you see pictures of of people on boats trying to come over the channel and all that. Yeah. Well, how does that resonate with you? And you feel like your experience gives you a different outlook? You know, I mean, today, today it seems like it seems like, of course, there are economic migrants. And for me, whether you’re running for your life or whether you’re running to make a better. The life for your kids shouldn’t be such a big distinction. Of course not. How do how do you feel about it when you see these pictures now?

[00:05:07] I completely agree, as in, you know, my my whole family, my two brothers, a younger brother, works at an Afghan resettlement scheme where he’s dealing with, you know, people like you said, from boats and stuff coming into the country, trying to help them out, trying to provide them shelter and care and stuff, and something that’s very close to our hearts because our parents have gone through it ourselves. And I think it’s a bit of a shame when you do have people like like Trump or Boris in power who can stop people who are fleeing a war that are fleeing a war where they’re fleeing to provide a better life for their family. Why wouldn’t you if you’ve got the resources there to be able to help them, why wouldn’t you do so? You know, and a lot of people complain, saying there’s not enough space, there’s not enough resources. But you know, at the end of the day to make someone live as just a normal life providing, you know, just basic shelter and food. Of course, there’s space for that. You know, I don’t I don’t think there’s there’s an argument there at all.

[00:06:00] And you know, look, we’re going to get to you what you’ve achieved through this podcast. But you know, you can you can look at a human being coming across the channel as a drain on resources. But then, you know, you can look at them as someone like you who’s who’s now contributing so much to society. You know, I can see, you know, your burning ambition that you’ve got. Do you feel like that’s where it comes from? It comes from that sort of almost like repaying your parents, are they?

[00:06:34] Oh, of course, I’ll get to that later on. But you know, a lot of what I do and what my drive is is because, you know what my parents have gone through to get to where they are today is is going to be completely. I can never match up to that. No matter how good of a dentist I become and how much I achieve my life, nothing’s going to be harder than what they’ve gone through. What previously are immigrants and refugees have gone through. When you go to war, seeing people get killed or all of that horrific kind of, you know, moments into your life, it’s when you’ve gone through that and you come into a new country and you’re given a second chance, you embrace it and do the best you can do to be the best you can be. So although these people at the moment right now, some may have education, some may not. I’m so sure that the ones without education when they come here, they’re not going to be sitting on their homes watching TV or anything like that. They’re going to be working as hard as they can because they know they’ve been given a second chance in life and they’re going to work as hard as they can to to be able to provide and give back to the country they’re in and also to provide a better life for them and their family.

[00:07:30] Yeah, for sure. And you know, it’s not only people running away from war, right? I mean, we’ve we’ve got a bunch of, you know, people, people from the European community working in Enlightened and you know, these these people for the same pay as we’re giving someone might come at school. Leaver might turn up who is here, someone who didn’t even finish school. I’ve got someone who’s got a master’s degree from Romania or from Lithuania or whatever, and that the basic point of someone who’s got get up and go to go leave everything like you said, your dad, that a number of shops and the successful life to leave everything and go to the other side of the world is a person who’s going to contribute once they get there. Of course, what’s what’s your dad up to now?

[00:08:22] Well, both my parents, from the moment they’ve got here, they’ve always been kind of just working these odd jobs. My dad’s been a postman Royal Mail for about 20 years, and my mom works in the supermarket as a cashier. So day in, day out. They both work extremely hard their day, even though they had their retirement age. They don’t want to stop.

[00:08:42] So go and tell me about your childhood so you could at school?

[00:08:46] Or what was your story? Yeah, as in some of my parents came here, they met and married and we lived in Wembley, Albert and North West London. We lived in a house that was full of people. It was a three bedroom house. One of the rooms was by another family. We had the downstairs room and it was another room where about seven refugee men were sleeping on the same bed. The house was always packed or was full of people, and it was me and my older brother and my parents. At the time, we all slept in one room and one bed as well. And at the time, you know, it was, it was. I loved it because the more the merrier. I always thought, and you know, I always had good moments. We didn’t. We want we want to be a wealthy family or anything like that. We we didn’t come from much, but I had an amazing childhood thanks to my parents. They worked really hard to be able to provide what they could. My older brother was always very academic. He’s a doctor. I studied in King’s College London. A journalist, a humanitarian, does amazing work. So to live up in his footsteps was was quite hard for me. At school, I was doing OK. I always wanted to do dentistry. When I first applied, I got my offers from Queen Mary’s and Manchester. However, I was very, very much into my little bubble in London there. Growing up with all of my friends and stuff, I really wanted to stay in London and all I got was a. A B from creameries, Mary’s and AB from Manchester and end up getting AC, so Manchester still accepted me, but because I was just one grade or three Mary’s, I thought to myself, No, no, no, I don’t need to break out this London bubble.

[00:10:12] I can reapply. I can get the three A’s and go back into Queen Mary’s. I carried on doing my arse day and I ended up getting three days in a bee. Queen Mary still said No. There were no. I said, Well, it’s just wasn’t it? So unfortunately, I took a gap here do a B or C and drop my B or C. When I was living in London, I was very impressionable with people who who had had the, you know, the money, the success, that life at such a young age. And it wasn’t always the most legitimate things they were doing. And I was so impressed by, you know, how much, you know, one day someone could acquire a young age. So when I started to hang around with them, I got pretty much into the wrong crowd and my parents were like, You know what? Your this is not going to happen here because we just had my younger brother and younger sister as well. And to be a role model for them, my parents were like, No, you’re not going to be living here anymore. And they actually went to go, send me to go live my auntie. And when I went to go live with my auntie, you had to go, wake up, call there. I’ve been given a second chance and she really took me in, took care of me, gave me a strict timetable when I worked really hard after it, I see my options are very limited as well. I decided that I had an offer from Valencia, Spain, and that’s when I went to go study dentistry.

[00:11:23] There I studied in Valencia.

[00:11:25] Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:28] Amazing. Amazing. Coming across quite a lot of people is telling us it was. So do you learnt Spanish as well?

[00:11:33] Yes. Yes, the course was the first year was in English and then after it just progressed onto just studying in Spanish. So my final exams or essay questions of Spanish lectures in Spanish. So it was it was very nice to be able to learn a second language, but very difficult to to learn that second language and to learn dentistry in a second language as well.

[00:11:51] Were you there the same time as the twins from Yorkshire Dental?

[00:11:54] Yes, they were my class. Yeah, both of them.

[00:11:57] Yeah, I’m going to have them on at one point. Were they? Were they busy doing Instagram from college? They were telling me,

[00:12:05] Yeah, as in, I think I actually at the time, I had a clothing brand that I started in my while I was doing my university there, so I knew how to work with Instagram and social media influencers. So I worked with them and I was like, You know, it will be amazing if we could use this element of social media influences into the Dental world. And they started doing it with influencers providing them free teeth, whitening this and that to be able to, you know, post about the page and about the clinic. And, you know, their dad was an incredible surgeon set up, you know, did a really good job with it. And yeah, really, really good guy. And you know, he’s been able to to provide them with a huge, great platform and opportunity to to be there are today.

[00:12:45] Tell me about the clothing brand.

[00:12:47] Yes. So when I was in university in London, I studied biology with psychology and the PSC here in London. I used to work in a clothing store called Hollister, Abercrombie and Fitch. And a lot of people in that store were all kind of like even models or into fashion and stuff. So when I started, you know, networking with them, I learnt a lot about fashion in London. There are much bigger brands like Trap star Michael Spinelli. They’re quite unique, kind of these street urban wear and the kind of learning the process of it and learnt how to set up myself with one of my friends who’s been very successful with his own clothing brands. So we set up a company in Valencia. We launched events as well. So we had like, you know, different nights out and we’ve done really well the first couple of years. We have people from Australia and New Zealand, America, big names Chris Brown with all of our stuff and promote it and stuff. So it was really, really good. But it’s very hard to run. It’s it’s it’s been where we have kind of waves, where it peaks, then it goes down like fashion, you know, there’s always ins and outs. And I realised that the margins from the money I was making, I’ve probably made a better living. If I just focus entirely on dentistry,

[00:13:56] One degree, that takes a lot of confidence to do that, right? Yeah. If it was me and I was in Valencia, that now we’re talking like in a way, I know you were born in the UK, but we’re talking like third country from Sri Lanka. I put my head down study what I probably wouldn’t even study. I’d go out, have a good time or whatever, but there you are, making a fashion brand while you’re at it.

[00:14:23] Yeah, as in, I was in a very different place too to pretty much most students in Valencia, Spain. Like, you know, you spoke with the twins earlier and spoke of a lot of people in my class. They come from wealthy families, they come from dental clinics or dentist and stuff. Both my parents are refugees who work in minimum wage jobs. So what are you

[00:14:41] Trying to pay your way through? Was that what you were trying to do?

[00:14:43] Of course. Of course. Hollister transferred me over to one of the stores there. I worked in residency. I went to nightlies. I had to be able to pay for my education at the same time and studying so most. When I finished university, I went straight to work and after work from the restaurant I worked in. That nights is run in different bars and stuff, so I always had to be extra and effort, and I had to because I realised how much my parents were sacrificing to be able to send me there because I didn’t have the money. Something I really pursue my dad with. I was like, Dad, look, this is something I really want to do. I promise you that if you send me, I will graduate or become a great dentist. This is something I can’t let go of. And it was really hard for him because he we have a younger brother and younger sister as well, and he doesn’t have the finances at all to support everyone. So for him to take that stake, to be able to remortgage the house that he finally purchased after a very long time to use all that money to send me there, I wasn’t just going to stay there, just study and show, you know, I had to study and work as hard as I could to be able to help pay for my tuition fees and my living costs. Now the reason why I’m doing so much is because I really want to give back to my parents and to my family for everything they done for me.

[00:15:53] An amazing, amazing story. It reminds me a bit of that sort of Gary Vee narrative of the incredible advantage of being an immigrant.

[00:16:01] Yes. You know,

[00:16:03] Of course it’s counterintuitive, isn’t it? You imagine? I don’t know. I’m trying to build a life for my kids of stability and good schools and all of that. But I already noticed, you know, that the burning ambition piece that you seem to have. My kids haven’t yet got that. Yeah. Now let’s say, let’s hope. Fingers crossed they get it in a different way or they learn a lesson or whatever it is. But what a beautiful, beautiful story. I’m interested in one other question. Jenna, when you were hanging out with those, what were they drug dealers or whatever they were? There’s unsavoury? Yeah, of course. It’s clear that the downside of that, yeah, but was that sort of, you know, seeing what it’s like to have money and all is that? Is that something that’s helped you as well seeing what that life was about?

[00:16:54] Of course, as in, you know, this is when I was a teenager, so I was very influenced and be able to see the luxuries they had to be able to wear nice clothes, go to restaurants, be able to provide for their families in the ways that they did. It’s something I wasn’t. I’m never I don’t live in fancy means at all. I don’t ever wear any fancy clothes or anything like that. But to be able to be financially secure, something that my family never had and you know, with respect to my parents because they provided so much love, time and affection to me. And you’ll see wealthy families where parents have the most money in the world, but they don’t necessarily have the same amount of time and love and affection from their parents. So although people could say that I was disadvantaged in some ways, I don’t ever see myself as that. I see myself from, you know, my parents did the best that they could provide for me and did everything they could for me. But when I saw that financial side to me, I was really intrigued. And I really wanted to be able to have that. Not for myself, but for my parents.

[00:17:54] Hmm. Well, you know, in life we chase things, don’t we? Yeah. And that piece, you just said you need the self-awareness to sort of understand that things aren’t going to make you happy, you know, security? Yeah. You know that notion of security?

[00:18:12] Definitely.

[00:18:12] You know, if you if you if the ground under you is constantly shaking, you want it to stop shaking you.

[00:18:20] You know,

[00:18:21] I do get that. But a lot of times we chase things. And once you get a few things, you realise God, things don’t make you happy at all. Experiences, memories, you know, that sort of thing. I still buy into that a little bit since. So where did you study? Where did you say, which year did you qualify from Valencia

[00:18:41] Qualified in 2019?

[00:18:44] I mean, so then tell me about your first actual was it Viti or how did it work? Yes.

[00:18:48] For my later. So, yeah, yeah. As in, we were still eligible to apply for the foundation scheme there, and it’s just to set up over here. So in it, I did my S.A.T. and my interview and stuff. And frankly, in Spain, I scored the highest ranking from there, so I was able to get my first choice in Essex. Unfortunately, as everyone knows, when COVID hit in March 2020, a lot of Dental practises had to close. So, you know, I was halfway through my year where I kind of had to stop practising and start telephone triaging, which was useful, gave me a lot of good skills, but I really, really wanted the hands-on element from it. So from then, I kind of took a bit of a break, worked on my Dental marketing company that I set up in university as well. I worked on that for six months, and eventually I had a good relationship with some people in the NHS that were able to give me another year in a UDC site in Nottingham. And that was very intense. But it really skilled me up to a point where I learnt so much in that year more than the whole five years. And Dental school.

[00:19:57] Yeah, you need that. You need that. So, but so the digital skills came firstly from the clothing brand and the events in Valencia. And then you started, did you start going, you know, approaching dentists saying, I can help you with digital marketing?

[00:20:12] Yeah, as in. No, that didn’t really happen. I think at the start, while I was doing my clothing brand, I also had a bit of a personal page as well where it kind of posed some fashion stuff and things from there. And people just saw that I was good with social media. They saw like that I was implementing like, you know, all of these things, giveaways, flies and stuff. My clothing brands and I had Dental friends, so I helped them with their dental practises. They did really well. And then for me, I just kind of had an idea, you know, I can branch out and work with different Dental training facilities. We work with Dental training consultants Shobana Anand. She’s good friends with one of the co-founders of my Dental marketing company. Then we worked to have. We were talking about more than about 20 plus different Dental groups like clinics, training facilities and individual Dental say in the UK. And it just kind of grew from there. So it was started in Dental school, but it really kind of took off in that year when COVID hit.

[00:21:11] Wow. So recent all of this to me, it’s a testament to your, you know, influence here that I feel like you’ve been around a while, but it’s actually so recent. It’s just the first pandemic. So, all right, so you did the bit of vet the UDC job? Mm hmm.

[00:21:30] Then what? Yeah. And then after that, after my UDC? Yeah. Well, during the weekends of my UDC, I started working in a private practise in Harrow. Here, I kind of just started to hone on a little bit into more of an industry that I wanted to do, which was, you know, dentistry that every young dentist wants to do these days, which is, you know, the whole composite bonding porcelain veneers and Breslin’s and whitening stuff. But it also kind of opened my eyes to different needs in a different sector, which was the private sector and the NHS sector. So it kind of made me think about what else I could do. And another thing that was also doing in Dental school was the use of AI in dental diagnosis. So one day in Dental school, in clinics, I had a treatment plan for one of my patients that I wanted to get an opinion from one of the professors teaching me. So I showed him the radiographs and told him about my treatment plan, and he looked at the ready world and he was like, You know what? I think you should do this instead and gave me a different diagnosis with a different treatment plan. The next day, I reconfirmed it with another person who gave me a different diagnosis plan.

[00:22:38] And finally, I realised that the diagnosis of radiographs and dentistry, they are subjective and they can always change based on the person who’s reading them or, you know, based on, you know, the level of the experience with the clinician or whatnot. So my cousin set up a company which was medical diagnosis using AI algorithms, and it was one of the first people in the world to do it. And I told him, You know what, as dentists, we take more radiographs than anyone. So with that, I kind of set out to build up my own algorithm using Dental radiographs. And now I built something where once you put a radiograph into the system, it will highlight all abnormalities to you. And now I’m working with a company up in Manchester Dental School for Manchester Imaging Ltd, and I’ve just been appointed their clinical director. And in the team, we also have someone called Ben Atkins, which I’m sure you know, yeah, he’s in a clinical team as well. And you know, it’s just we’ve just kind of joined the team and I think this year you’ll be hearing about it very soon as well.

[00:23:36] So look, the idea of machine learning on radiography, on radiology. You know, it’s actually it was one of the first applications of of IBM Watson, wasn’t it? The fact that the reason I know this is my brother is a radiologist and he’s he’s been talking about, Oh, well, computers are going to take over. We’re going to lose our jobs for the last three or four years. He’s been talking about that, but you can’t be the first ones doing that, but we’ll get onto the competitive nature of business later. How does it work? Do you do you want you want to teach this machine different diagnoses? Is it literally a case of putting in loads of images? What dentists thought about those images is that it?

[00:24:24] Well, what we have to do, first of all, is we have to have a large collection of of a database of different radiographs, highlighting different realities. So let’s take the Class one cases, for example, what we need about 20000 images of a class one carries, you know, from 20 to 20000, the more the better, I’d always say. And then we need to have expert annotated. So we’ve got professors from all over the world who Dental maxillofacial, all surgeons who diagnose red equals, and they’ve been doing so for decades, right? So once they’re at the highest level, we had about six of them go all the way across and annotate exactly what’s wrong with the graph and

[00:25:01] Finally get the radiographs from,

[00:25:03] Well, we got it. They got it from Manchester Dental School. I got it from where I was in Valencia, a network of dentists. You know you’ve had them on here, small clinic group, kitchen gin. So, you know, we’ve had a lot of cross and a lot of different places. Feed it all in. Have these expert annotators labels one and then put a machine to then start learning exactly what is what? And then it’s a long process. It took about a year to really develop something really solid. I’ve been working on it for so long, but then after every time it’s annotated, you can then see when you put a radiograph in, it highlights what you what is a class one carries. And it’s not to replace dentists or not to replace radiologists, but more to act as a second opinion as a safety net. Because sometimes when you’re seeing X amount of patients per day, you might look at a radiograph and miss something right. And when you do miss something maybe like in a UK. Get in trouble later on. The patient might be unhappy later on that didn’t pick it up and improves the diagnosis and treatment planning, and it builds more trust to the patient as well because they can exactly see where the algorithm is highlighted. Areas of abnormality. So it’s not just you saying, Hey, hey, I need to do five fillings. There is no actually, you have a look at this. This highlights ray abnormalities. You need to have five fillings, right? So it’s good in so many senses. But my favourite one is just building trust with patients and patients understanding their treatment needs better.

[00:26:23] Sure, sure. But tell me about some of the speed bumps along the way. I mean, there’s. Does it get it wrong and or did it get it wrong? And you had to change the algorithm or.

[00:26:33] Yeah, well, there’s been many speed bumps along the way. One of them was the NHS Health and Care AI Awards. That was something I submitted my work into. So with it, I did it alongside my cousin’s company who do lung X-rays and CT X-rays as well for the brain. So we all kind of worked on it all together and they had the application and have applications. Exact same principles. Pretty much the same kind of methods of using it. Everything was pretty much the same, but when we submitted it, they all got the grant and I didn’t and I worked on it for months. I spent so many nights just, you know, going over it and really put my passion into it. And I said, How are they getting it? And I’m not getting it. This is in my head revolutionary. This is going to help and change. It was going to help with the NHS backlog because we can prioritise which patients from based on existing radio whilst we have which patients need to be seen that haven’t done treatment on reduced the NHS backlog, improve patient care. So many things. And that’s when I realised, you know what, a lot of people, including the NHS with the long term plan, they don’t see all health as important as systemic health, even though it has been many studies that provide the link between the two, right? And that is a speed bump that I’m still working on today, and it’s been many dentists around the world that have, you know, put a lot of research into the topic. Dr Maguire Stanley, for example, there’s a lot of work between linking oral health and systemic health. Does another doctor called Dr Dohme in Germany? And the more and more I’m kind of looking at reading networking with these guys to really try and bring out that link into dentistry because I’m hoping more and more people will see it. And when they do, I’m hoping the NHS will end up giving me a grant one day.

[00:28:15] Hmm. Yeah. Don’t hold your breath, man. Tell me about the sort of So what is the corporate structure? I mean, are you working under your cousins now or have you set up a new

[00:28:29] Company and these guys are they want a whole different, whole different league to what I am now. They met really, you know, Boris and Rishi and stuff, and they they’ve done great work across the UK. They’re all in all the hospitals in India, America and stuff as well. And they really want to focus in on the what the work they are doing right now. So I decided to take it as a solo project. I was I got a call. You guys do that. I want to do this by myself. I then had a clubhouse. I think as Clubhouse is it the the application we speak? I think it was Robbie and Millard hosting it with Ben Atkin’s on Dental technology, and I so I joined the call and I started speaking with them as the first time I actually spoke with Ben. And Ben was like, You know, he’s heard about this Dental diagnosis using AI. And I said, Well, I’ve got a lot of experience with it. Let’s catch up. I had a call. He introduced me to these guys in Manchester University. There was a professor called Professor Hugh Devlin, who’s an international known dentist in Dental research in a lot of books and other research papers. And he had developed something similar to why I had. So when I spoke to the CEO and the team over there, we decided to collaborate, join forces and really are going to be able to provide something for UK dentists that were great. And at the time, Hugh Devlin was about to retire. He was right of clinical director. I was able to step in, spoke with these guys, got Ben Atkins on board and now hopefully the CEO Payman. I’m going to ask you to try it and tell me what your thoughts are on it.

[00:29:55] Amazing. So how far, how, how far away are we from a product ready to buy?

[00:29:59] So we have a product at the moment right now. Right now, we focussed on inter and animal only caries, which are probably one of the most difficult things to spot in a radiograph. But it’s like, you know, one of the things we put out right now and right now, we’re kind of marketing it as prevent preventable profit. So, you know, dentists who are looking at it can pick up on it and take their patients, Hey, listen, you’ve got early. And now more and more care is here. You need to go see your hygienist and use for toothpaste. Here’s kind of the work you need to do on it. We’re also developing things that we can pick up from calculus, bone loss, different stages of of of caries and all kind of abnormalities that would hopefully be ready by the later part of this year.

[00:30:37] And physically, how does it work? How how do you put it into your software that, you know, is that simple thing to do?

[00:30:43] Yeah. So right now, it’s a standalone desktop application, so you install it, you have it running there onto your desktop and what you do is once you’ve taken the ready. At the moment right now, we haven’t had an integration to the specific software you’re using. We’re hoping to get that along the way as well. But as soon as you take your radiograph, you can run it through the desktop app and in about five seconds, it will highlight all abnormalities for you so you can have a look with or without your patient to be able to see what treatment needs to be done here. And then you can relay that back onto your patient and then formulate a treatment plan accordingly.

[00:31:15] Have you raised any money?

[00:31:17] Yes, we raised about two million so far. So it’s going well, not as well as the big boys in the US, but where we’re hoping to raise more.

[00:31:26] So how long do you reckon your runway is? With that, I mean, how long are you going to be able to keep going?

[00:31:32] Well, we look to that. We’re aiming to get around five hundred Dental clinics by the end of the year using our software. And I think that’s a really kind of realistic target that we’re hoping to be able to achieve. You know, we’ve got a lot going on this year. We’re in talks with Health Education England. We want to speak to Dental schools to be able to get them training the Dental students with it. We’ve developed something called the Gap Tool, which is a general assessment portal to where when I give, I give you six radiographs and you’re meant to diagnose them individually by yourself. And then I want to give you six radiographs with the algorithm called Assistant, and it highlights all areas of abnormalities in the sexuality class. And at the end, you see a result of what you achieved by yourself. And then what you achieved using what we call assistant. And in it, we always see a huge number of increase detections using Assistant. And when he’s looking at the second time, you’re like, Oh, wow, can’t believe I missed that. I can’t believe I missed that. And we’re using it to train foundation dentist from the start of the year, we’re going to see how good their diagnosis skills are. And then we’re going to see which ones need more work. We provide them more training with and then more and more at the end of the year when they finish the training. Hopefully, they can go out to the real world and be able to diagnose and treatment plan accordingly.

[00:32:40] Doing a lot, man, a lot. How did you raise the two million?

[00:32:44] So this was this was Tony Travers and Craig Gardner. So these guys have decades of experience in business, finance, research and stuff. So there’s loads of venture capitalists and programmes set up to help UK based companies to be able to grow from there. So I’ve got to give my thanks to them. These guys have done a great job doing so.

[00:33:05] And so who’s calling the shots? Is it you or is there like a different CEO?

[00:33:08] So are we. I’ll be the clinical lead. So the clinical director, certainly from clinical base, I’ll be calling the shots. We do have someone called Craig Gardner, who is responsible for the commercial success of the business. By being honest with me, we all work as a team, as in Ben Atkins has decades of experience every time I talk to him. You always have challenging conversations. We always disagree like, you know, argue our points across. But at the end of the day, we come to a solution and it’s great to be able to walk in and sit into a room where everyone around me has decades of experience on what they do, right? So I always have to bring my A-game when I’m walking into today because I only graduated in 2019, but they don’t ever see me like that. They always see me as someone who’s got a wealth of experience in what I do. And so with it, I just make sure that I bring my A-game done, my research done, my studying know what I’m talking about, research all of the competitors and know what’s good. So it’s collective team that I ended today calling the shots.

[00:34:03] I’d get a CEO.

[00:34:05] The Yeah, we do have Tony Travers

[00:34:08] Used to get me.

[00:34:11] The thing about collective team calling the shots is, you know, it’s all well and good, but you need one guy. Yeah, that’s cool. By the way, in my company, it’s not me, you know? Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:34:23] So how does your work?

[00:34:25] My partner, Sanjay is the CEO.

[00:34:28] Ok, OK.

[00:34:29] Yeah, no, no, I’m not. I’m not the right person,

[00:34:33] But

[00:34:34] I don’t know. Maybe one day interesting question about competitors, then. Yes, I mean, I said to you before I get, I get a little newswire thing from from some, some accountants. And they said, Yeah, investor holdings are doing this. And if you’re aware of them, they own everything they are. Buy buyer care and cur, and they’re probably the biggest. Maybe after Invisalign, the second biggest company in all of dentistry, billions and billions and billions that were How are you going to go up against those guys? I mean, look, I’m doing it myself, right? We’ve got we’ve got competitors that many, many, many times our size. Yeah. And my advice to you is you’ve got a niche out here. So with Enlightened, we’ve called we said we’re going to be the world’s best teeth whitening system. And that’s our niche. Yeah, not the cheapest. Not, you know, whatever. Not not the most distributed. Yeah, but you you’re going to have to niche out and maybe what you said, the education angle. Yeah, because it’s the kind of thing that you know, if just for that example, if if if investor comes up with something in two years time which completely nails this and they’ve got billions right, they could they could. They could get a team of hundred people working on it. If they completely nail this and your system doesn’t give the same accuracy, then your system’s got to nail something else. It’s got it’s got to be something, something neat. But you know, it’s super, super impressive, dude. Super impressive. And the speed that you’ve done it in as well.

[00:36:10] Definitely. Yeah, there’s this huge competitor. There’s a lot of people in America. They’re there, they’re a lot more open to this new technology and new advancements in the field, so they get a lot of funding for it. One of the ways that we decided to niche out was definitely through Health Education England, for example, we just had the Oxford chess game kind of trial, a gap tool and. Notice an increased number of findings using Assistant. So we’re just hoping to be able to start them young when they’ve come out of Dental school, familiar eyes themselves with the software as well. We’re also working with other dentists who are trying to get input from UK dentists at the moment. Right now, we’re not trying to conquer the world with this thing where UK company based in the UK is helping with the NHS backlog. Let’s help with our students over here and help with the dentists over here.

[00:36:55] So that’s the most niche right there, right? The NHS. Yes, the nice thing is right there, you can dominate the NHS with this.

[00:37:03] Yes. Yes, definitely. You know where

[00:37:05] The nice niche right

[00:37:06] There? Yeah. So that’s the plan. I’m still, you know, going around the world trying to meet Leaders and the Dental field, get their opinion on it, find out what they’re doing. So I can use that information to be able to put it on here because in the UK for dentistry is great, but we need to look elsewhere as well. How are they doing things in America? How are they doing things in Portugal? I’m going to Cancun to meet some dentists over there after, so I’m always trying to learn from world leaders around the world and try to implement it back into the UK and into my own practise as well.

[00:37:34] But you’ve definitely got a talent as far as collaboration. And you know, why is it that you can get Miguel Stanley on your little live thing and my cap, her and Dr Saleh? And you know, when you contact me, I want to talk to you. You know, you’ve definitely got a talent in that collaboration area. Communication and collaboration with this. Where does that come from?

[00:38:00] I think that comes from a young age. You know, when I was 15, I always had a job. I started working when I was really young in Valencia. I met this person, called his name was Jay-Z. He was responsible for all of the kind of elite events in Spain. And I was working in my retail store then and he met me. I got to know him. And then he started taking me out to all of these private events where we met footballers and all of these really, really cool people and that opened my my kind of communications because he was he taught me so many things, you know, when you were at a party, when you were somewhere, don’t stand with your arms crossed or you stand open, always go out and talk to people, get people’s phone numbers because we want to invite them for events and be able to make a living from it. So I got it. From then from a from an early age, I made friends with this footballer who played for United called Louis nanny. He opened my doors and a lot of senses. He actually asked me to do his veneers for him because I was introduced to him as a dentist when I was getting a dental student, and it would have been a great opportunity. But I was like, No, I’m not. I’m going to sit myself out this one because, you know, you don’t want to mess it up. So I think from where

[00:39:07] You naturally, naturally that way inclined. I mean, I don’t know if you’ve ever done one of these personality tests. You know, we do it for people who who are applying for a job like 16 personalities. I mean, everyone should, should, should have a look at that 16 personalities dot com. But it was these simple questions like if you go to a room full of people, do you stand at the side which you stand in the middle? Yes. And me, I’m completely the other guy. I’m completely people believe I’m very, very shy.

[00:39:34] Oh, I think you’re very particularly.

[00:39:36] No, I tell you, what do you do when I know someone, I’m too much the other way I’ll tell them everything. I’ll tell them secrets. I’ll tell them, you know too much. Yeah, yeah, I’ll say inappropriate stuff. But but when it when I’m when I don’t know someone if I haven’t met someone before, I’m very, very, very, very shy. And I find it particularly hard to approach Tom Dick or Harry and say, Hi, I’m Payman. I just can’t do it now. But but it sounds like you’re not that guy at all.

[00:40:05] I don’t know, as I like to think that, you know, obviously I still feel uncomfortable when it’s a new person and I’m trying to like, you know, introduce myself and start a conversation. But because I literally work from Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and even Sunday nights in Valencia and my job was to go out and network and build communications with people. I was

[00:40:22] Just kind of, as your job

[00:40:24] Is here, it’s got to change into me now that I just find it naturally, be able to do it. Mike, I’ve known for a very long time for like 2016. Got to know McGregor’s and Mike Appeler? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:40:34] I’ve got to know I’ve known him since 2007.

[00:40:36] Wow.

[00:40:38] I didn’t reply to my my my message

[00:40:43] As he showed me, he’s the hands.

[00:40:44] You get something out there. But when he first started with Larry,

[00:40:52] I know they’re they’re incredible guys. And I’m just I’m lucky, I guess, because to be able to network with people as you know, you inspiring

[00:40:58] You, you know, it’s important, you know, it’s an important skill that I think people should be good at. I’d love to learn, like if it was teachable. Yeah, I’d love for you to teach me that.

[00:41:07] Yeah, definitely.

[00:41:10] I can get it. I wasn’t born there, you know?

[00:41:14] But but you know, a lot of times what we’re really good at, we take for granted because we just comes naturally. Yeah. So now, you know, unbelievably in the middle of all of this, you also become. Best young Dental in London. I mean, where do you find the time, dude? Are you literally working day or night?

[00:41:38] Look like I said my parents work 11 hours a day, right? Nothing I do is going to be harder than what they do. Ok, so yes. I feel really humbled and lucky to have won these awards and be doing this. But I’ve got I’ve got big shoes to fill and I need to give back, you know, I feel personally that my parents have had a very difficult life. And at that stage of retirement now, and I need to work as hard as I can, not in 10 years, not in five years right now. So my parents are still healthy enough to be able to reap the rewards of what I can provide for them. So winning best young Dental is it was great. I never really showed my cases outside of like a judging panel to have a dentist on Instagram and stuff because I only qualified since 2019 and I’m super critical of my own work. I always look and review all of my cases after and, you know, just really think, how can I get better or what am I doing wrong? The little, little adjustments I can make, you know, I went to Portugal when I shadowed Dr Miguel Stanley, and that was very lucky to do so. He gave me like a private lecture and private seminar, and I showed him my work and he started posting my workout or my my clinical work, and I told him to delete it because I’m still super critical. I don’t think I’m the best dentist in any way. I’m not the most experienced, but I really want to be, and I really want to be able to learn from the best like, you know, you’ve got an amazing course as well for composites, and I really want to go on as many courses as I can learn, as much as I can and become the best dentist I can be.

[00:43:01] But I think do you think it’s possible to become the best dentist in the world and develop this AI system? You know, maybe, maybe it is studio. Maybe it is.

[00:43:12] No, no, no. I have no for me.

[00:43:15] For me, this AI thing, yeah. What it needs is to go into an incubator and have proper business people on it and raise, you know, around a round, be round, see and go and, you know, exit strategy. And you know, you’re far enough in it that if you if you turn around to me tomorrow and said, Listen, I’ve decided not to be a dentist, I hope your parents aren’t listening to you. If you turn out to me tomorrow, say I’ve decided not to be a clinical dentist to pursue this air thing. Yeah, yeah, I wouldn’t think that’s a bad idea, dude. I don’t think that’s about it because because because let’s say it goes nowhere in two years time. Yeah, OK, go become a dentist.

[00:44:00] Yeah.

[00:44:01] Listen, I’m not giving you that advice. I’m not giving you that advice. You know, everyone’s got to do their own thing. Yeah, but I definitely gave, you know, Bryant, Connor Bryant that advice. Yeah, he he was already the business was already happening and then he started doing his vti, and then he was looking for a job. I asked him, What are you doing, man? You know, the like. His business was on fire already. And I don’t know whether he took my advice or not, but you know, he put 100 percent, 150 percent into Bryant and you can see what’s happened there.

[00:44:36] Of course, I completely understand what you’re saying and what you’re saying is true. When you really want to be the master at something, you do need to keep it one hundred percent attention. For me, though, from such a young age, I’ve always had a passion into creating beautiful smiles working on the industry, and it’s not a job I don’t ever see it as a job. I love going into work. I love taking clinical photography to my step by step, learning and improving every day. It’s my hobby. It’s not really my work. So for me, you just give up the industry and do that. It’s giving up something I enjoy doing. I didn’t go to work ever thinking it’s a day of work. I really enjoy doing just the niche that I’m doing. You know, when we talk about endo or implants, I’m never going to go into it. I’m never going to specialise into it. I know, like, you know, personally, I can tell you, I’m not the greatest. And I don’t think so at all. And I stay away from it and focus into what I am good at. So despite what you’re saying, it’s something I do in my free time. You could just say, I say my, I want to be my job. My dentistry is kind of my passion in my hobby.

[00:45:30] I get it. But the reason I say it is because seeing what you’ve achieved at the same time as being a dentist, yeah, makes me think if you had time, yeah, you could really achieve amazing things. It’s a bit like, do you remember during lockdown? Yet suddenly all this amazing content started appearing. Yeah, yeah. People were interviewing Miguel, and there was all sorts of things coming out and people were. I remember Monarch suddenly had Coachman, you know, come on. And you know, when dentists have time, they can do all sorts of amazing. Then lockdown ended. Everyone started drilling again and the content just died. Completely died. Of course, because because it’s it’s time. It’s time. Yes, I understand what you’re saying. It’s a bit too early. It’s a bit too early to to say give up dentistry. You know where in the industry it is a bit too early. But do you understand what I’m saying to you that the main reason I’m saying it is because you’ve achieved so much while still being a dentist that I’m a bit worried, a bit like, you know, not worried, but excited to see if if Jana had seven days a week with no patients. What would happen to this, to this AI thing, you know, and it will take. But believe me. Yeah, and Mr holding the missal around. Yeah, yeah, let alone your other competitors. Yeah, I’m sure there’s six or eight other very serious competitors.

[00:46:56] Yeah, of course we go big players. We know we’ve got forty million pound companies from the US coming out over here. And, you know, I completely understand the competition we were up against, and it is definitely about finding your niche and just homing on on it. And for us right now is definitely the hub we have here over here in the UK.

[00:47:15] Tell me about winning this award.

[00:47:18] Wow, winning this award. Look, I know a lot of people don’t understand it to be like, you know, it’s just an award for me to get to this stage, to even become a dentist from when you’re looking at me. When I was 19 and hanging out in the streets all day, not having a good education, getting kicked out my family house, going to go live with my auntie, it’s kind of the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, kind of, you know me?

[00:47:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:47:43] So to go to that and a lot of people didn’t think I was a dentist and for my dad to go off and we mortgaged the house and send me abroad, a lot of people were like, What are you doing? Are you crazy? You’ve got a younger son and a younger daughter to look after your postmatch. Don’t have the finances to be sending a kid to a private school in Valencia. Have you lost the. Especially this kid, this kids on the streets all day, he doesn’t do anything like, what are you doing with me, right? And my dad did raise those concerns to me, and that’s when when I was at my auntie, so I was laser focussed, you know? I’m not going to do the industry. I’m going to become the best I can be. And I want to really, really do well. And as a Dental student, you see these Dental magazines, you see these Dental awards and had it in me when I was a student, I was like, I want to get there one day, you know? So I didn’t realise I didn’t think to myself, I’m going to achieve it, you know, a couple of years coming out, you know, when you’ve got so many people who have won this award beforehand were amazing dentists who have been in the field for so long. So for me to have won it, it’s it’s something I envisioned and I manifested when I was a student. I’m going to get up there, I’m going to get the stage, I’m going to bring this award to my parents and I want to make them the happiest parents there could be. I was like, I was almost in tears, you know, and I know what people will be like. Beautiful, calm down. Calm down. It’s an award, but it’s not just an award, it’s just what it signifies to to me that I managed to achieve the dream of being a dentist and to win an award like this as well. It means a lot to me.

[00:49:02] It’s beautiful. But tactically, what did you do to win it?

[00:49:07] Tactically, what I did to win it. So of course, clinical content I submitted to my son, my clinical cases, my baseline, my small, my curves.

[00:49:14] Listen, I know nothing about it, except what happens. They say, OK, send some clinical cases. What else do you have to do clinical work?

[00:49:19] Is there some work for what you’ve done to become a dentist? What you do outside of dentistry, what you do for charity work? I was talking about my clothing line earlier before we donate all of our profit to the climate reality change. So we do all of that as well. And just, you know, overall what you are. So funnily enough, Ben Atkin’s I found out after we got him as a team was actually one of the judges for the dentistry judging panel. When I asked him, Ben, why? Why my application? Why did I deserve to win it? Because there were so many great people that fly in this category, and it was because you’re doing something different. Your dentist who came out from Valencia, you’re not doing an ordinary ninety five Dental job as many people do. You’re outside air, you’re building Connexions, you’re doing this, you’re doing that and you’re doing clinical dentistry as well. So I feel as long as you can show that you’re a great dentist, but also outside you doing other things as well, that makes you different from the knees, from the normal and have your own niche. I think that’s what we’ll take you to in it.

[00:50:11] So I take it. This was before you were partners.

[00:50:13] Yeah, yeah. Before, before I.

[00:50:19] Yeah, tell you what we to.

[00:50:23] I won in November and we joined in

[00:50:25] January of the following year. Yeah, yeah.

[00:50:32] Amazing. Ok. It’s interesting, dude, because they get a lot of bad press, don’t they? The awards?

[00:50:38] Yeah, that’s the thing a lot of people look like. This is just, you know, whoever buys the most tickets, whoever does this and whoever does that. I didn’t even buy a ticket, you know, are going by it, by the small clinic group, Jen, in case you won the war before as well. And then great dentists, great training academy, great group of clinics and stuff. They always do bad press and I understand the bad press completely. Even, you know, when we have these top implements of dentistry and stuff like that, I get it all. But for me, it just means something a little bit different, just simply because of where I came from to get to even become a dentist. That’s why I find it really special.

[00:51:09] Yeah, yeah. Know your story sounds great because you know you thought about this when you were a dental student.

[00:51:15] Yeah, not so much that award, but just where it signifies to me in my life to be able to prove people who doubted me wrong before they could never make it to become a dentist and to work as hard to just provide and give back to my family.

[00:51:27] You know, on these things a lot of times sort of trying to get to the sort of the core of, you know, what’s driving someone and how those things happened. And you know, yours, I can see, is a very clear of often have these things and we feel like we didn’t get to it. Whereas whereas with yours, it’s so important for you, it’s like such as such as shining light that you’re following a particular goal of making your parents proud. You know,

[00:51:57] That is number one to me. Look, look awards at the end of the day. As long as your patients are happy and as long as you’re you’re being a good dentist, that’s what matters. You being ethical, your patients are being happy, you’re doing the right job. Awards don’t mean anything.

[00:52:07] I want to have this more happen, dude. If your dad sits, you down, says, Listen, Jana, I’m so, so, so proud of you’ve achieved way more than I thought was possible. I’m proud of you. And would that extinguish you?

[00:52:22] Well, I mean, those words to me is making me emotional as in Oh, it’s so beautiful.

[00:52:28] I say, I tell you where it goes for me. Then it ends up saying, I want to make my kids proud of me. You know, setting an example for them.

[00:52:37] That’s why I’m against people who who don’t come from my background who already had because a lot of people get sick to people who have had their parents that their Dental clinics and they take over the Dental clinics and they look all. They were born into a rich family or they were already dentists and stuff like that. Listen, I’m trying to do the same for my kids, right? I want to become a good dentist and provide them in future as well. There’s nothing wrong at all with your parents being successful in which and you’re blowing into that. You still have to work as hard. Not taking any credit away from them is what I’m trying to provide for my children as well. But my number one priority is always to give back to my parents.

[00:53:09] Yeah, I mean this thing about being born into it. So what

[00:53:14] That’s like, isn’t it

[00:53:17] Exactly that likely

[00:53:19] That? And anyone, anyone who thinks a successful rich people are happy that doesn’t know many successful rich people, you know, like this massive pain and having a super successful father, you know where you’re always having to live up to that, where you’re always compared to that person, even within yourself, within yourself, where you feel I’ve got friends. The father’s got a massive global conglomerate of companies all over the world. I went to school, went to school with the guy. And, you know, he can’t point to any achievement and say it was his own because even by himself, he knows he was put on a pedestal, you know. And you know, life life’s hard in many ways for many people. Of course. Let’s move on to darker days. Yeah, it’s weird asking someone as positive as you, but I do. I do like to in your darkest day in dentistry,

[00:54:18] My darkest day in dentistry. Wow. I think as a student, one of my darker days was when I when I developed this idea and I put it forth to my my teachers and they they laughed at me that I was wasting my time and it’s a joke and no one’s going to find it useful. That was a bit difficult to kind of overcome because when you think you have a great idea and you hear people who teach you dentistry, I tell you it’s no good. That was pretty dark for me, but I kind of just carried on working away on it, on silence.

[00:54:51] So you didn’t lose confidence or you did. You questioned yourself?

[00:54:55] I did question myself, of course, because these guys have been in the industry and teaching dentistry and know dentistry for four decades more than I have. It was very upsetting to see, and a lot of students were laughing at me as well. Stupid ideas, never going to work like he’s wasting his time in dental school. I wasn’t like, you know, I found it hard in dental school because for me, I was always working and I was working with be honest with you. I was working with restaurants and I was working in nightclubs as well, right? And the reason why I was working in nightclubs is because the guy I met knew I was working retail, so he’s going to pay me more to work in nightclubs. And I did it and as a student and not respected if you’re working in nightclubs. So sometimes when you see my professors coming up into the nightclubs and partying and stuff, they’d often see me being a VIP host and they often thinking ahead of that student doing a VIP. Or you must be a spoilt kid from from London and spending all this money is wasted, all of the VIP. And but no, actually, I was working in the club. And I come close to that. So as a student in school, kind of always kind of found it a little bit hard to tackle that angle. But I was a student president for the first few years, was trying to do the most I could for my students and stand out into that crowd as well.

[00:55:58] But I definitely did say once I graduate and came back into the UK, the community here has been great. The platform from seed energy to to UK, of course I work closely with the team and they’ve always been so positive and welcoming and pushing my ideas every time I want to. I want to write an article about I or I want to like, you know, other dentists from their platform because I think one of the things we do in the UK is we have our own community here, right? We have it’s really kind of like home and hub, but we don’t really look outside what’s going over in all of these different countries? What can we bring over from all of these different professors, right? So one of the things I’m talking, working with and with some of Dental academy, let’s be more professors from overseas. Great UK. You guys are all fantastic. You know you’ve got the masters of what’s happening in the UK, but what about this guy from this country, this guy from that country and bring them all in? So trying to work on that, I’d say my darkest days were when I was a dental student, but that came to light once I graduated and stuff started becoming part of the community in the UK.

[00:56:54] What about clinically,

[00:56:56] Clinically, clinically? Yes, so when I graduated, of course, my family were very happy and my parents wanted to have all the treatment they’ve been putting off for the last decade or so because all the way to save their money so I could do anything for them. I think my mum came into the clinic and I had to. Yeah, a lot of work to deal with her from from the background she comes from, which clearly wasn’t taught how to brush their teeth. So I need a lot of work with her and I’ve been one of her three molars. I thought would have been a simple end, though, and I ended up just doing the treatment on the trip, ended up pursuing the tooth.

[00:57:39] And it’s my own mum, my own mum.

[00:57:42] Yes, mum’s promoter. And from it, I.

[00:57:48] What’s happening? Okay.

[00:57:52] Oh my god, how am I going to tell my mum I failed to finish it?

[00:57:56] And what did he do?

[00:57:58] Did you brush it under the carpet? This chief has to come out. Sorry, bye.

[00:58:03] Yeah.

[00:58:04] Well, don’t worry,

[00:58:07] I’m

[00:58:07] Going to get you to the best bridge. I want to take you things like, you know, that was probably my my biggest mistake, and I realised I told my family from then on Mother’s Anatomy, You guys give me a couple of years and let me know what I’m doing. And that’s why. Now, for though, I don’t do any endo refer out, and there’s a lot of people who do a lot better than I do, and I just focus on what I’m good at. So that’s been my worst clinical mistake so far. And know, try to justify it to my mum was the car. Yeah, but you know, the crown on it wasn’t very good. Didn’t have the 2mm around it. But at the end of the day,

[00:58:39] It’s funny a perforation will do that for you. I think it was a mainly said this to me as well. I had a perforation in dental school. When you when you see when you see that blood coming through the through the end, it just keeps on coming. It just affects, you know, any pathway. And I remember Anoop bless his soul. He said there was one perforation that that then defined the rest of his career, that you just stayed away from endo. Oh, I think I think it was, he said.

[00:59:08] As probably to me,

[00:59:10] Yeah, you know, it will do that. It’ll do that because it’s such a horrible thing to happen. You spend your whole life trying to save stuff, right?

[00:59:17] Yeah.

[00:59:19] So I think that my dog is kind of cool moment.

[00:59:22] What about have you never had a situation where like a patient management? Error patient management when you haven’t been in it for long enough, maybe for

[00:59:30] Long enough and you’ve got to realise I’m not an undergraduate, I’m a postgraduate who studied biology with psychology. So with it, I’ve always kind of learnt about Dental.

[00:59:37] I’m good at communication communication.

[00:59:39] That’s the kind of home. And that’s why I’ve actually given lectures on my university to congresses around Europe and stuff. And I’ve been invited to talk about Dental psychology and Dental anxiety. So I feel that once patients there, once we were in the chair, once we were talking and everything goes smoothly. It’s great because, you know, I heard this quote where a patient will never sue a dentist that they like no matter what they do wrong as they light them. Hey, listen, don’t worry about it, you know? So I think that’s the most important thing above your clinical skills is make sure you’ve got a good relationship with the patient. Make sure that you know you both like each other, treat them as a partner rather than a patient. Feel like you’re both in it together. You do this work at home. I do this work in the clinic. Together, we’ll come up with a dream smile.

[01:00:19] So would you say, Janice? Big tip in dentistry is on that communication and communication.

[01:00:26] It’s definitely that. Don’t even see the patient as a patient, see them as a partner. Understand that to be able to achieve the results that you’re going to do clinically, it’s 50 50 because the patient has to make sure they’re all hygiene their foundations, their guns are as healthy as they can be for you to do the work. And so it’s always a 50 50. They have to be making sure that they’re not smoking their oral hygiene routine and everything is good. And once you establish it, as long as you do, you keep your end of the bargain. I’ll keep my end of the bargain. Always communicate. Always get proper informed consent. I’ve been lucky enough to become an honorary global ambassador. So dentistry ambassador before we kind of preach is one is informed consent sterilisation.

[01:01:09] What was it? Was it like being around Miguel with his patients? Oh no. How did you know? Yeah.

[01:01:16] Tell us the stuff I seen there. If I say to you, you wouldn’t believe it. You can never happen in UK dentistry and I’m white,

[01:01:24] White, white going to as an example,

[01:01:26] You’re going to find it crazy. You’re going to find it as in. I was really lucky because I he was doing a course there. I was planning to do a course there, but I think there was too many applicants that came to be able to control it under the coronavirus restrictions wasn’t possible, so I ended up going anyway. I was like, You know, my friend Nani’s from from Lisbon, Portugal, I went to go stay with him and stay with his family there. He’s recently moved into Italy to play there. So I stayed

[01:01:49] In town as well. Lisbon isn’t

[01:01:51] So beautiful. Love Lisbon. First time I’ve been there and it was. It was so nice. Yeah, I recommend everyone listening. Go check out Lisbon if you haven’t already. It’s really beautiful. The White Clinic for Moto Clinics I’ve been to in Lisbon, Portugal, is probably the most advanced Dental clinic I’ve ever seen. All the latest technology there. He does a high level of dentistry. There was a patient that flew in from Australia, right? She flew in from Australia to come to the Lisbon clinic to see Dr McGirr Stanley, and she had pain in her arm. She couldn’t move her arm. She went to see the doctor, went to see whatever dentist, and she had loads of implants. So loads root canal treaty teeth, crowns on not implants and went to go see it and was like, You know, my dentist says everything was fine. My doctor says, nothing is wrong with me. I don’t feel well. My my my brain is all clogged up. I can’t move my arm. I’m thinking of ending it all. This is my last resort. I’ve come over here. I want to fix it right the way I say it, like, you have to be there to really understand how it went and I looked in and stuff and he was like, cool. He did like a 3D CT scan from the x rays. I couldn’t really notice much wrong. But then after when you look to the CBD and saw all these habitations and who’s talk to me about Jawbone detoxification, they’ve never heard of it before.

[01:03:08] And the true pathological dentistry. So it came out there and he pretty much did a full mouth extraction and taking out on these teeth and is going into these competitions, I saw lots of pus coming in from the jaw stuff I’ve never seen before, right? And after he kind of cleared it all out, did ozone therapy do or less? The next day, the patient was like, my mind is becoming clear, and immediately after she stopped moving her hand, moving her arm. And that’s a question most is like, how does this all work, right? And he was talking to me about all of these like, you know, old Chinese traditions where you link all of the teeth to different organs and parts in your body and stuff like that. And as with the clinical evidence to this, like, you know, I’ve never really looked in any studies, anything like that, but the stuff he saw in between relationship was given me and stuff. It’s it’s something we don’t practise here in the UK. And it’s it’s not just one patient, it was another patient with trigeminal neuralgia who had all these headaches and stuff like that came in a similar kind of treatment and after I was able to be just fine. So it is truly life changing. I can’t really explain into that much scientific detail because I’m still learning about it, and I don’t really know the ins and outs of how even works. But it’s some dentistry that I’ve never seen before.

[01:04:18] So, so on the CBC. He could see something.

[01:04:21] Yeah, because doing some habitations in the Jawbone and some great nuisances that. Want a present one won’t want you couldn’t see in an RPG properly.

[01:04:29] Ok. And then he extracted the teeth in front of you. Yeah, pus started coming out

[01:04:36] In these habitations as you went down. Dig deeper than passed out. Coming out decapitations. Well, never seen it. I even spoke to Dr. Kahn, who’s an implant geologist here in the UK. Tpd of what’s interesting told him about my experience, and he was like, Wow, never would happen in the UK. We would. We wouldn’t be doing this type of treatment here at all. And the moment I was really lucky, he’s not.

[01:04:56] He’s not he’s he’s not like a, you know, a quack, is he? He’s like, he’s he’s an evidence based guy.

[01:05:03] Yes, definitely. Yeah, yeah, he’s on all of these papers research for me, he’s he’s definitely one of the best, most respected dentists in the UK. I was lucky enough because he actually took me to a room alone, and they seminar and presentation was meant to give to 500 students. He gave to me one on one and I was so lucky to be able to sit there and experience that with him. And you know, you taught me through everything, went through my clinical cases and.

[01:05:25] But listen, when you say when you say this could never happen in the UK, do you mean because it’s it’s on the edge of of, you know, evidence base and we would never risk it? Yes, based on GDP and all that.

[01:05:37] Mm hmm. Exactly what you mean. Exactly that,

[01:05:40] Exactly. Interestingly? I mean, we’ve talked I talked to TIFF Qureshi about this. Yeah, when TIFF was was was pretty much developing a lime bleach bond. Yeah. And you know, when we were developing enlightened, we did things that, you know, weren’t in the literature here. And we were saying

[01:05:59] About that when you kind of risky about the GDC and how tight we are here, did you

[01:06:03] See wasn’t the problem back there? I’ll tell you what, when any time I thought it was super risky what I was trying, I would try it on myself. Oh, wow. Yeah, we do a half and half on myself occasion. And then and then I would rope in my staff, my team and I’d say, Look, I want to try this on one half and try, and people really worry about one half getting whiter than the other or whatever. But that wasn’t my worry. My worry was always, am I going to hurt? So. But you know, at the end of the day, when you want to move something forward, you have to try it eventually, you know, eventually you have to try it.

[01:06:37] Of course.

[01:06:38] Of course. Very interesting, man.

[01:06:40] Yeah. But it was the experience I recommend. Like, you know, when we ever have the time, go check out White Clinic, it’s

[01:06:46] I would love to very often I met him once years and years ago when he was, he was actually in whitening. Back in the day, back when we started in 2001, we were doing light activated and he was representing bright smile in Portugal. Ok, but bright spark was a was a light before before Zoom, but he was clever enough to get out of it. I stayed.

[01:07:11] Oh right, OK.

[01:07:14] It was a new range from. You must have had a high smile, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s right. So like a professional product range, and he was talking to me about it because the CEO got in touch with them and I was like, Isn’t the same guy approached me and I did try of projects. But out here in the UK, even though Ha0 have their own professional package now, if you promoting high smile at a lot of dentists that will look down on you and say it’s wrong, yeah, so I’m a little bit careful with what I do. You have

[01:07:45] To. It’s the social media age man

[01:07:47] For social media.

[01:07:50] All right, buddy. I know time is limited, so let’s wrap it up. We always wrap it up with the same two questions. Prav ones and my ones, perhaps final question. Sure. You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your friends and family and parents and children and all with most important people to you in the world around you. What’s what’s three pieces of advice you would leave them with?

[01:08:21] Wow! Three pieces of advice I leave them with. Don’t chase money. Do what you’re truly passionate about. I think a lot of people in our lives do just chase the money and find what brings them the most money, spend all their time doing that. But, you know, if we spoke before, that’s not there. The materialistic things that really bring us true happiness. It’s the people in the memories that we cherish with them. So definitely spend more time with the people you truly love and create memories with them. That’s something I really want to do with my parents and my fiance and my family now is, you know, have that good balance, which I’m learning from a lot of people who are a lot older than me in the field to say, don’t be a workaholic, spend time while your while you can, but the ones you love. I think that’s one piece of advice I’d have. The second one is be kind. Everyone that you meet in your life has a journey that they’re going through what they present and their outlook might not be what’s going on truly inside them. So always be kind. Be with everyone you meet. And the final one is be generous, always try and give something back to people or just give something to people. Don’t look for people with opportunities and that were really what you can do for them because you realise that once you provide something for them and give something for them, whether it be your patients, whether it be your colleagues, you really try and true happiness in their happiness.

[01:09:48] Very nice one. It’s very nice. And my final question, sir. Fantasy dinner party. Three guests dead or alive. Who do you have?

[01:10:03] Oh, wow, that’s that’s that’s an interesting question. Well, it’s going to be a little bit controversial because although there’s been so many rumours about him, I can’t I can’t deny that I was a huge fan of him when I was growing up as a child.

[01:10:19] I think Michael Jackson again.

[01:10:22] Yeah, he’s coming up, man.

[01:10:27] People said him before.

[01:10:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s what I

[01:10:31] Was scared to say out loud. You know, despite everything that’s happened, but it was a huge influence on me, not just his music. But listen, when I say this, I say it carefully. But the person he was or portrayed out himself, right? Always being journalists was given to children in need, making the world a better place. All that stuff I loved as a kid, I loved watching him perform. I love the person he was. I don’t necessarily believe all these rumours and stuff and these allegations. But you know, that’s up for debate and a whole different podcast episode. But Michael Jackson will be one of them. Another one would be Steve Jobs. True visionary love this journey. Being able to, you know, come from nothing to get kick back down to, to do it to to what he achieved. Steve Jobs him and the third one would probably be Elon Musk or Walt Disney, one of those two guys, because truly, because of their entrepreneurial spirit, something I resonate with. I watch all this stuff. And you know what Elon Musk is doing with ideas as well? You know, self-driving cars coming up and all. It’s something that I feel was really cool. And I feel like in dentistry, in our profession, we can also use AI to take us to new wonders as well.

[01:11:43] Get cheap focus, but

[01:11:46] I’ll allow

[01:11:47] It. I think Michael Jackson can hang out with Walt Disney. And then, yeah, Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs give Michael Jackson a hard time.

[01:11:57] Before we wrap up who you are, who would you say

[01:12:00] I have the guy from Red Bull? I don’t even know his name.

[01:12:04] Okay.

[01:12:06] But in a way, I don’t want to find out his name because I like I like the fact that I don’t know his name. You know, like, it’s Red Bull. It’s what he’s done with Red Bull. This amazed me. Not not the drink, by the way, through the positioning. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The reason I laugh at Michael Jackson because I was a big Prince fan. Oh, Prince, which was if you once you once you get a bit older, you’ll realise Prince was definitely much better than Michael Jackson.

[01:12:33] It’s all that

[01:12:37] You know when you know Michael Jackson’s Billie Jean. There was no Billie Jean. Yeah, there was no Billie Jean. Billie Jean didn’t exist. Yeah, there was no kid. Yeah, he’s just it’s a cartoon. He’s drawn his prince. Everything he sang. There was,

[01:12:50] Yeah.

[01:12:54] And then my grandmother and you, grandma.

[01:12:56] That was classy, OK?

[01:12:59] But he’s been lovely. A really, really, really enjoyed it. And I just know going forward. Janet Dental is going to be on on, on our lips and you know, you’re going to be impacting the world one way or the other. And I know I’m sure your your parents are already very, very proud of you. So, you know, I hope your drive keeps going as well.

[01:13:19] Thank you so much, Payman. It’s been a pleasure and I’m a huge fan of yours and thank you so much for having me on. It really means a lot.

[01:13:25] I really enjoyed it. But thank you.

[01:13:26] Thank you. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it

[01:13:59] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:14:10] And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] You don’t need to be special to be successful, and I will say that this guy is probably my most successful client. He runs a practise that doesn’t turn over a great amount of money by any by any measure of this, whatever yardstick you use. But you came to me and he said, Prav, I’m working five days a week. Yeah, I’ve got a practise that I’m incredibly busy and and I’ve got some twin boys that I want to spend time with and I don’t want to miss them growing up. Ok. Fast forward 12 months later, we’ve got him into a position where he’s working two days a week. He’s the fittest and healthiest he’s ever been. Yeah, and he’s spending loads of precious time with those boys. Yeah. And in my mind, he’s my most successful client. He’s defined what success is, and it doesn’t have to be driving these flippin super cars and, you know, living in a mansion.

[00:01:00] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:17] Today on Dental Leaders, it’s going to be just the host me and Prav having a little chat. Shooting the breeze the thing that sort of spurred this conversation is that we’ve both been hearing and it’s all over the Dental forums and all that people who want to leave the NHS system and, you know, move to private. And the very common question that we’re getting is, you know, what course should I do? You know, like that as if that’s the the key. And, you know, I’m sure there is some upskilling that needs to be done, and it depends on who you want to be as a private dentist, obviously, which kind of private dentist you want to be. But what we thought was, you know, let’s have a chat. As you know, both me and Prav are very involved in private dentistry. And you know, one thing we should say is neither of us know much about what it is to be an NHS practise. I did one year of it before I moved out. You know, VTE, that was it. And, you know, Prav access all your practises and your clients are all private only Prav.

[00:02:20] Yeah, on the whole, you know, I have a few clients who are who are mixed. I’m getting more and more requests from clients that I’m coaching on. How do I transition? So there’s two main questions. One of them is how do I exit from NHS to private? And then the other one is, Well, how do I hold onto that NHS income whilst going private, right? Because a lot of dentists are scared of letting go of that contract, that income, that is a shocking the but also backing up the valuation of their practise. They’ve probably paid for that goodwill.

[00:02:54] Yeah, yeah,

[00:02:55] That has a value to it. And and you know, I work with a couple of guys at the moment that I’m coaching at the moment who are struggling to let go. The solution is really simple when you look at it from from a logical point of view in terms of what needs to happen next, right? Whether your goal is to retain that NHS income and just put someone else in that driving seat to deal with those patients, allowing you the freedom to be able to say, OK, I can now do private right and always talk about buying time. Yeah. And when I put it like this and I say to that client, Look, how much is this NHS dentists dentistry generating for you? And we lay the numbers up, OK? And then I say to him, Would you like to take four days off work and buy yourself out of that? And it will cost you a percentage of what you’re generating right now? And when you put that number in front of them, they look at me and think, Well, that’s a no brainer. Well, that’s that’s the solution. Ok? Is that you pay someone else to deliver that now you’re sat there with the other problem, which is, I need patience, right? I need these private patients through the door to fill my book. And I have very similar conversations with fully private patients that want a transition out of check-ups.

[00:04:14] Private dentists?

[00:04:15] Yeah, yeah. So there’s a lot of private dentists out there who’ve built their practise up over, let’s say, a decade, and they’ve built this loyalty with patients where they’re doing check-ups for 45 50 percent, even 70 percent of their time and then doing the high end work for the rest of it and they want to transition out of that. It’s a similar case to transitioning out of NHS without putting too fine a point on it. They need to let those patients know they can no longer provide that service so that they can then pivot their time into doing the higher end stuff and have that handed over to an associate. So from a patient communication point of view with that one person. The conversations are very similar, but there’s obviously a lot more nuances when we’re talking about transition of different types of private services versus transitioning from NHS to private. But the key problems that I see is I want to hold on to that income. I want to hold on to that goodwill. I don’t want a kiss all that goodbye because that’s the valuation of my practise. But I do want to spread my ring wings now and do the private stuff. But then comes the confidence thing, right? They’ve not done the right courses, they’ve not had the right education.

[00:05:26] And often as a marketing guy, it’s pretty strange, right? So people come to me and say, Hey, you know, run a Facebook campaign, do this, do that, you know, help us get more patients through the door, help us manage the workflow of the follow up, blah blah blah. And then they say, What sort of education should I do? They’re asking me that you’re not a dentist. I’m not a clinician. Yeah, but but there’s that position of trust where they said, Well, what should I do? And and I guess the question they’re asking me is, Well, what are your clients do and how did they get educated? You know, what courses did they do? And you know, my opinions are always incredibly biased, right? Because of who I’m involved with and so on and so forth. But I’d like to think that the people or the courses that I recommend generally. And a down the line of delivering excellence and ethical dentistry, right about Payman, you said earlier. Depends who you want to become, right? What dentist do you want to be this guy who’s smashing out loads of ab? Do you want to be a dentist who just provides a high level of private general dentistry? And I’ve got clients who are incredibly content on doing their private fillings, their private ndo, their odd, you know, restorative cosmetic units here and there, and they’ve got absolutely no ambitions of doing, you know, these high ticket cases or taking that risk that’s associated with those and are just happy.

[00:06:51] Go lucky. Transitioning from what used to be NHS dentistry to now just a steady, a way, comfortable way of doing private dentistry where they just provide a general level of dentistry. And for that, those patients right, those dentists who are used to seeing the same patients day in, day out, developing relationships with those patients, then the course that you should really go on is one run by Test Qureshi because his ethos and his his sort of teachings revolve around that everyday check-up, right? What you should be looking for in that patient, what you should be monitoring and then how you can from that loyal private base of patients generate some higher end dentistry that doesn’t involve any sexy sales skills or convincing or persuasion because you’ve built that trust with those patients, right? Pay what? What are your thoughts in terms of if we just think about education?

[00:07:52] I mean, look, I’m getting I’m getting two types of conversations. One is the first one that we just discussed. I’m leaving the NHS. There could be an associate, by the way. So you’re you’re kind of mentioning the the principal sort of thing on the price valuation. But I’m talking to a lot of associates to leaving the NHS. Not sure what to do next from the course perspective, from the treatment modality perspective, that’s that’s one. And then I’m also getting another interesting one, which is I’m already a private practise. There’s lots of new private practises about to open. How do I become the best private practise in my town? And we had that conversation, you know, with with we have the conversations all the time, but you know, let’s say you’re in a little town, like, where should we say Doncaster? Yeah, there’s there’s maybe four or five fully private dentists. Just I don’t know how many there is, but let’s say there is four or five fully private dentists. Now, if it’s true that a bunch of the NHS ones are going to become private or, let’s say, independent, then it’s up to the incumbent ones to become very private. You know, and I’m having that conversation, too. You know that conversation? How do I up my game? But you know, it’s interesting because for me, the soft skills are probably even more important than the clinical skills because it’s not magic, is it? At the end of the day, there’s a patient with a problem.

[00:09:22] And you’ve got to deal with it. You know, whether it’s private or NHS, that problem needs dealing with clinically, but the soft skills, I mean, when I was a dentist. No way would I ever, for instance, ask the nurse to go and get the patient from the waiting room. Never, never, never. Because that moment of going to the waiting room saying the guy’s name, acknowledging the guy I contact, maybe a tap on the shoulder. The conversation starting. How are you doing? What’s going on? That moment that walking from the waiting room to your surgery sets you up sets up the situation for how it’s going to go next. And then I would spend at least five minutes chatting before, you know, starting to look in the mouth or, let’s say, an examination at least five minutes. And for me, actually, that was my favourite time as being a dentist was talking to patients, just talking to them about what’s going on in their lives, their jobs, their families, which, you know, in NHS. There is definitely no time for that. And then, you know, OK, let’s let’s let’s let’s talk about the clinical side of things. Even then, there’s this soft skills, you know, painless injections. And they’ve being just generally being gentle, generally being gentle. There’s no time for that in the NHS.

[00:10:45] But even during that, let’s say we talk about soft skills, the gentle, painless injections, the soft touches, the pat on the shoulder, letting them know, Hey, you’re in control. You know, if there’s anything that you feel uncomfortable, just raise your hand and all that right, you’ve got no. But even then, right, the chit-chat is so important. What I’m going to do next? Yeah, the conversations, the dialogue between you and your nurse whilst being inclusive of the patient might all of us so important as part of that private journey. You know, you just mentioned one thing that just brought a little memory back to me, which is the first time I met my current personal trainer. Yeah, there’s the gym, OK, there’s the environment. There’s the glass doors that slide open before you step into the gym, right? But it’s an unfamiliar territory for many people who maybe have never stepped into that gym ever or has never stepped into a gym, ever. And the one thing Craig did is as I pulled up, he came and met me at my car. Had I had the five minute chit chat with me, walked me into the gym. Yeah, and then we went in and started talking about stuff, right? And all of a sudden, if you had any kind of anxiety or any phobia or anything like that, right, you’ve actually forgot that you’re making that transition from outside to inside. Same situation with you. You go and greet your patient in the waiting room. Yeah. Before they know it, they’re in your surgery. But they’ve not made that mental shift because you’re you’re distracting them with your conversation. That’s so important.

[00:12:23] Let’s not forget receptionist skills as well, you know, because, you know, I must have visited at least 500 probably more Dental practises in my time. Yeah, and I’ve had it all right. I’ve I’ve seen all different situations and it ranges all the way from you. Walk in the receptionist doesn’t even look up, just doesn’t even acknowledge you exist. Yeah, it’s busy on a computer, you know, like clicking away, which, by the way, not necessarily the receptionist fault. Yeah, there’s a there’s a massive sort of shortage. The staff shortage. Maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, know there is that. Yeah, well, you know, it could be the principals not staffing the desk enough, right? So the receptionist was super, super busy. I mean, I don’t know about your GP exactly the same, you know, vibe from when I get to the GP, she doesn’t even look up. Yeah, eventually looks up. Sort of like what you want. Who you? Hi, I’m Dr Langroudi from Enlightened. I’ve come to see Doctor Thing. Yeah, kind of shows you the chair to sit on. Yeah, you sit there and that’s that’s that’s one end. Yeah. And then I’m thinking the best one that I remember is finish where Gillies practise natural smiles, where, you know, before I’ve even walked in, receptionist gets up, opens the door. Dr Langroudi, we’ve been expecting you. How are you doing? Come take a seat. Would you like a coffee latte? Or, you know her cappuccino asking me questions? Nose knows about me already. Yeah, and you know, we know, we know the name of every person who’s going to walk into a dental practise because they’ve got appointments. Yeah, that’s not magic.

[00:14:10] You know what? It’s it’s it’s literally one of the first things that I teach when I’m working with clients, right? And it’s usually a, you know, a moment of clarity or whatever. And I say, OK, so let’s look at your day list today. There’s a 45 year old bloke who’s coming through your door for an appointment at two 30, and he’s probably going to come a little bit earlier or a little bit later. But the odds are if a forty five year old looking bloke walks through your door at two twenty five, yeah, his name is probably ninety nine percent Prav. Yeah, I think it’s worth you taking that risk and potentially getting the name wrong. Yeah, yeah. I’m working on that piece and just greeting that person by the first name. You know, one of the questions I always ask is that we’re all sat in a room and I asked them, asked everyone, What’s your favourite word? Yeah. And let me tell you, it’s the same word for everyone. Yet it’s different for everyone in this room and there sat there scratching their heads. Yeah, yeah. And your favourite word is your first name, OK? What is the word that you and you know, sometimes I take that a step further and say, if you were out in the street and somebody shouted that favourite word, you would immediately turn around now, do you know what it is? And sometimes they sit there sort of still scratching their heads and then they come out with some rude words, which is always, always amusing. But when they. Are actually, you know, when you’re having a conversation, you read Dale Carnegie’s book How to Win Friends and Influence, right? There’s a big emphasis on using that person’s name frequently. Yeah.

[00:15:50] Have you found an America? They’re really good at that. Aren’t they brilliant? I remember every time I go to America, I make a mental note. God, I’ve got to really listen out for first names. Yeah, and it’s actually the reason you must have some cousins or whatever in America. I’ve I’ve got a cousin. Manu chair is his name. Yeah, but actually in America, he’s max. Yeah. And in in in America, the first name is important. That’s why they changed their first names when there are difficult foreign names so that everyone knows them. But the number of times I’ve been in a meeting in America and I’ve just shaken someone’s randoms and not not even a meeting, I’m on a on a stand, on a Dental show and the guy says, What’s your name? I go Payman not. Not exactly an easy name to remember. And then five minutes later, he says, Payman, what I want to tell you is this is this is this. And it just makes you feel special. Just makes you feel special.

[00:16:42] Absolutely makes you feel special, man.

[00:16:45] I mean, I don’t know about you, Prav. When I take my call for service, the dude comes over and greets me by my name because he’s got the he’s got the car number plate, isn’t he? Yes.

[00:16:57] I had this. I had the same.

[00:16:58] Exactly how he’s doing it. Yeah, but I still love it. I still adore it.

[00:17:02] You know what? It’s because we’re trained to recognise these things, so we appreciate them more, right? I stayed. But just it’s

[00:17:08] Just lovely, isn’t it, when the guy comes to Dr. Langroudi welcome? Yeah, it’s just it’s just lovely. There’s nothing magic about it. He knows my car number plate. He knows what time I’m coming, you know, know exactly what’s going on.

[00:17:19] I got collared with that over. We hadn’t been away anywhere for ages, right? And so me and my wife booked a couple of nights at a place called the Gilpin in the Lakes. Really, really lovely place. My wife booked it. I didn’t know how much the damn thing was going to cost until I was checking out, but that’s another story. But as we pulled up in the car, the lady walks out of her little cabin. We wind the window down and she said, Mr. and Mrs. Solanki and I was like, What the fuck? Yeah. Then it clicked straight away. No play. Then she walks us over to our parking space. Everything that you can teach about customer service, every little step that I’ve spoken to my clients, that was executed to perfection. And because we know it and because we talk about it, you just appreciate it that much more.

[00:18:08] Yeah. But you know, if I’m an NHS dentist, yeah, and I’m scratching my head thinking, how can I improve customer service for my patients? I mean, NHS dentists earn well. They go to these these hotels like like you do, like, well, they they they take their car for service like me. Yeah. So it’s not there’s no magic in customer service. Customer service is about treating people well as individuals and, you know, being off service. The question I’ve got a good question for you, Prav is it is it teachable or isn’t it? Because definitely when you’re hiring, you want the kind of person who’s got that attitude already. Yeah, you don’t want to have to teach that. And I think, you know what? The first thing you said really rings true. We’ve got this. The major difference between private and NHS is that in the NHS, there’s an abundance of patients. Sure, customers in private. It’s the exact opposite. Most private dentists that booked maybe one week, two weeks ahead. They are, of course, the the super successful ones who have booked longer. But you know, there’s a there’s a shortage of patients. And so the mindset in NHS ends up being whoever you are, whether you’re this customer centric person or not, the mindset ends up being me. I am doing you the patient a favour by seeing you because there’s an abundance of patients. There isn’t an abundance of NHS dentists, you know, could taking patients. So I’m doing you a favour. You’ll do as you’re told, you know, if I if I run late. Yeah, if I run 15 minutes late, yeah, you should still feel lucky that I’m seeing you. Whereas in private institute, I used to work in the city. Yeah, once I never used to run late, ever. Yeah, I used to just have massively long appointments and just to have breaks, coffees and all that in between patients.

[00:19:58] Some things never change.

[00:19:59] Yeah, yeah. But but the reason was because once I ran five minutes late, the guy got up in a pissed off, left the place, got back to his office, sent a complaint, an email. Yeah, and and in a way, I get it, man, because you know, when I go to the GP and it makes me wait 45 minutes sometimes. Yeah, even though I know, I know the reasons why they’re pressurised and all that, it makes me a bit angry. Not that I get angry here. Not that I show it. You know, I’m still sweet as pie, but inside it makes me a bit angry. You know, his time is more valuable than my time. Sure. You know that thing.

[00:20:41] Yeah. And that mindset, you know, the the what you said, there is something I talk about, which is with the NHS patients, OK, they’re coming through the door anyway, OK? If one cancels, you’ll get another one through the door or whatever. Yeah, with the private patients, it’s a complete shift in mindset. You’ve now got to earn their business. Yeah, they’ve got money in their pocket and they can choose to spend it wherever the hell they want. Ok? And the fact that they’ve chosen you is the fact that you’ve earned it. Ok, but you still need to keep earning it by either delivering service. The little touches, right? The you know, on whatever whatever your equivalent is, you’re you’re welcome. Yeah, of how you greet those patients. You know, we’ve spoke about this the the Hilton DoubleTree cookie. Yeah, yeah, that’s my thing that, you know, I go in there and I know I’m going to get that cookie and I’m a complete mug. Yeah, so I’ll book there again without going to TripAdvisor or the price comparison sites because I’m going to get a cookie that’s probably worth two quid. Yeah, but it’s that it’s that experience that drives me in their right. And, you know, often often we speak about, Well, what’s your cookie? Yeah, yeah. What is it? So, you know, there’s a lot around those soft skills, but let’s go back to that. There’s an NHS dentist now. He’s got a truckload of patients that he or she is in fear of losing that income. Or, let’s say, the associate who wants to break free from NHS. That’s a different scenario, isn’t it, because they’ve they’ve got to pick a different job, right? You can’t just go up to your, well, maybe you can.

[00:22:19] But but well, no, you’re right. In general, and this is why all our courses are full, you know, your courses are full. There’s associates looking to upskill or to get CV fillers in order to go and get private jobs is is the reason why they go on is courses. They come many smile. Make over why? Because they want to show that to to to the private principal. For an associate, though, you know, these days there’s going to be such a lot of competition for private jobs and always has been. But these days, even more because people don’t want to be in the NHS system for any of our listeners abroad, they probably thinking, What the hell are they talking about? Yeah, yeah. But you know, we’ve got our state system that’s very, very broken and now a bunch of dentists who want to leave it. Yeah. So for instance, it ends up being about courses, but, you know, equally important, Prav and you know, you’ll be an expert. Instagram, you know. Yeah, you know, I’ve spoken to principals and we’ve spoken to principals on here who say if the dentist has a strong Instagram, the associate, that’s a really good, good thing for them. Of course it is. And in a way anyone can pay to go on a composite course. But anyone doesn’t have a strong Instagram presence in a way that actually does show you something, doesn’t it? And then on your side, Prav, you get people who’ve never done advertising before coming in and thinking that you know they can throw money at a problem. And that will be the end of it. And, you know, that is as much about what happens to those leads that come in. In fact, more about what happens to those leads that come in. You can deliver 50 Invisalign leads to them. What happens in the practise if we’re still in that NHS mindset of there’s going to be patients forever. They’re not going to be followed up.

[00:24:16] And, you know, I think yesterday one of your colleagues who who you referred to me, right? And he’ll remain nameless. But but you know, the conversation that we had on Zoom was, Hey, I want to go to Diamond Invisalign. But you know, whatever that tier is, they point to the apex predator, whatever, right? And and he has this ambition. And so I just have a little diagnosis. Call with with anyone, right? And we talk about, OK, who’s answering your calls? What happens next? If I delivered X number of leads, when were the calls be answered? What’s the nature of the communication through text, WhatsApp, email frequency follow up? And we we just we just go through this logical structure that I’ve got in my head, right? And more often than not, I tell them before anything happens, they need to fix what’s already broken. Because let’s say whatever marketing strategy you put into place, whether it’s delivered by my team and other agents, it actually doesn’t matter. There’s cracks in the wall, right? And all I am going to do or another agency is going to do is make that crack wider and longer. Yeah. And until we until we fix that crack, there’s no amount of marketing that’s going to give you what you need and that what you need, maybe growth, maybe different types of patients, maybe more revenue, whatever your lofty goals are, right? We need to take a step back and say, Well, guess what? In an NHS practise, no one’s ever tried to fix that. Or at least you know, that’s not.

[00:25:49] There’s no need to is the only constant supply of patients.

[00:25:53] There’s not that focus on fixing that right. So then it becomes a whole learning and unlearning process, right? So, you know, take you back to the question you asked me earlier, Is it teachable Prav? Yeah, it just depends on whether your team are coachable. And often the conversations I’m having with with principals is this that that person needs to get off the bus. That person is absolute gold. Yeah, this person, we can develop and grow. And I know that right. And however, you know, I’ll go in with a completely unemotional attachment to any human being in that business, and I will no have to spend in an hour or two on Zoom speaking. You know, sometimes we we do like a full practise audit where I interview team members in isolation

[00:26:43] And I’ll know with a

[00:26:45] Pretty clear degree of certainty because I’ve owned practises myself. I’ve worked with lots of practise owners. That person ain’t going to change and they’re not interested in change. And I’m doing this for four years. Yeah, they’re getting to the end of their career. Yeah, they don’t want to start skipping when a patient walks through the door and start asking them which type of mocha chocolate they want. Yeah, they’re not interested. Yeah. And so and so some people, unfortunately, if their goal is to reach whatever that goal is, some people will inevitably have to get off the bus and that becomes a hard, soft pill to swallow for the principal or or they move them to a different role within the practise. There’s always a solution. But yes, it is teachable, but it depends how coachable those those team members are and how excited they are for the vision, right? What that means

[00:27:37] Is the principal has, you know, has to take some, some some responsibility as well. Prav, right?

[00:27:43] Or listen, I believe all the responsibility, right? So, you know, when some people are looking at this and saying, Oh, OK, you know, this person’s not doing this or this person didn’t answer the call, this person didn’t follow up three days after, right? So they’ll say to me all this stuff, and I always turn around and say, You’ve got to look in the mirror mate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because all of these things that are happening are down to the person that I’m looking at right now on this Zoom call. Yeah, it’s our failure, either in leadership, not knowing what we don’t know. So lack of knowledge, right? We can’t just say it’s our fault and I’m out to blame because sometimes they just don’t know, OK, and then it’s an education for them. But ultimately it falls flat on its face with whoever’s driving and steering that ship.

[00:28:31] I mean, the thing is Prav, even from a, you know, I’ve learnt this kind of hard way, even from a day to day management perspective as the principal. It makes a lot of sense to blame yourself and take full responsibility. Because otherwise, your day is determined by that other staff members mood. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know, at the end of day, if she’s if that person is wrong, you hired her, you can fire her. You know, taking responsibility is really important. But the other thing is, you know, people look for tactics, don’t they? So let’s say a tactic could be have a team meeting once a week or a team huddle once a morning, once a day. Yeah. Mm hmm. The me and you know the idea that when you have your team meetings with your team? Mm hmm. That’s a whole different thing to when I have team meetings with my team. Completely different situations, totally different things come out of it. You know, it’s it’s to do with what that meeting was. Well, some people think, Oh, OK, a meeting. That’s that’s an important thing. And as if as if just having the meeting, it’s you know what goes on in that meeting.

[00:29:40] And it’s, you know, that’s one of my pet hates meetings for the sake of meetings. Yeah. And for me, I always like to come out of the meeting with just three things to action. That’s it. Yeah. Anything more than that and anything longer than that for me personally and for my team that I’ve worked with for many, many years. Yeah. Anything more than that. All that happens is we come back to the next meeting and say, What about the other twenty six things that didn’t get done? Yeah, let’s focus on the three crucial results, right? The three actionable things and meetings. And you know, that’s the topic of a whole different podcast where we can talk about meeting rhythms, huddles, what KPIs are what you should be measuring. And I’m passionate about that, right? Because a lot of people sit down and and come out with a list of twenty seven or 50 KPIs, but then you ask them the simple question If that KPI goes north or south, what are you going to do as a result of that? And they look at you staring at you with rabbit in the headlights and you think, Well, are you measuring it then? We’re measuring something that you’re not you’re not going to take action if it moves up or down, right, the whole point.

[00:30:43] Maybe we should go, though. But I wanted to ask you something else before we go there. Tell me some of the horror stories.

[00:30:50] Would you be?

[00:30:52] Patient calls, upsets, do you do Invisalign, do you do enlighten? What happens next, I mean, have you seen some examples? Oh geez, man, just completely waste that leader, though.

[00:31:04] Oh listen. More often than not, yeah, my own clinics included, right? We’re not. We’re not immune to all of that right. People have bad days. Yeah. And also, you know, you know, it would be a big part of when, you know, when we grew our practise and practise growth right, without putting too fine a point on it. Yeah. Marketing strategy, this that and you get the get the enquiries through the door. It’s what happens next. Ok? And a structure and a process that we went through religiously. Week after week and month after month was auditing inbound and outbound phone calls. Yeah. And it tells you so much about your business. Yeah, you

[00:31:47] Have your team listened on times to, right?

[00:31:50] Yeah, yeah. But we’ve we’ve I reckon. Me and Joanne sat down probably about a year ago, and between us, we’ve listened to in excess of 10000 phone calls between patient and reception, TCO or whatever. Right? We’ve heard it all right. Everything from munching on a bag of quavers while they’re talking to the patient slurping tea. Yeah, right down to almost like the the pissed off police, right? That what the hell are you doing? Calling me disturbing me? Yeah. Oh yeah, you want Invisalign? It’s five and or the pre judgemental thing where a patient asks, Oh, you know, how much is this that and the other and the receptionist was, We’re a private patient. We’re a private practise, you know, and the patient goes, I know that that’s why I’m ringing you, and it’s almost like they prejudged them, right? And sometimes it comes down to accent and dialect, right? Internally, some of us are very pretty judgemental. So I’ve heard people with like, let’s say, an Indian accent or whatever foreign accent, right? And and the receptionist on the phone sort of prejudging that patient. And we’ve had training calls around that where we where we essentially at random, we pull 10 calls a training session. We’re always revolves around ten calls, right? So we pull ten calls randomly random. It has to be random because when you’re training the team, you got to take the rough with the smooth. Out of those 10 calls, there’ll be some really juicy golden stuff where they’ve done stuff, right? Ok. You don’t just want to pick out the bad stuff, right? That training session has to have positives and it has to have all positives, right? Even if they’re negatives there and how you frame that when you’re sat in a room with those people and they’re listening anxiously, right? Wondering if their voice is going to come up next and then amongst their team shitting themselves, right? So you’ve really got to explain to them the reason we’re doing this is so that you can all get better.

[00:33:47] And if you’ve got some mistakes and you’ve caught up and you’ve had a bad day or whatever, it is brilliant, we’re going to fix that today as you want to listen to the mistakes so you press, play war or sat round, and sometimes the phone rings and rings and rings and rings and rings, and then eventually someone picks up and you’re like, Whoa, OK, the phone’s ringing for too long. Maybe we need a call answering service. If that’s happening too often, then the next one is it rings and rings. Patient picks up. How are you for it to get done? How can I help you? And it’s like, Sorry, where? Who? What’s your name? All right, let’s get this first part of the call. Tell them your name. Clearly who you’ll speak the very basics of telephone, right? Then we move on to the next step and the patient says, I’m looking at your Invisalign offer and of notice. You given a free way, free way. And the receptionist on the other end goes really doesn’t know the offer, doesn’t know the offer. So then there’s an issue between marketing and sales, right? And we need better communication. Already, we’re figuring out just by listening to the calls what’s broken in in the systems of the practise, right? And then we go on further and the patient doesn’t realise that the receptionist doesn’t realise that this patient’s main issue is phobia, not the cost or the price. So we pick up on little cues.

[00:35:02] Yeah, but you don’t come down. You don’t come down on the individual who took the call. Oh God, no. You’re very sensitive to that.

[00:35:10] You have to be right. And look, I did do at the beginning with my own team, and I was the worst human being in the whole business. Yeah, and then realised very quickly when I had a lot of negative feedback that hold on. This needs handling a little bit more sensitively, right? And I just did my tact right. I coughed up at the beginning, but listening to your phone calls? It’s a great thing it teaches you so much about your business and having somebody like us. Listen, there’s probably about six or seven coaching points on every call, right, that you may or may not pick up. But the most important thing is doing that regularly. You do that as a one off event. Once a year. You don’t even bother. Forget it. Right? Were you doing it once a month?

[00:35:55] So were you shutting the practise once a month for a couple of hours to do that?

[00:36:00] No. So what I do is I would be at the practise. We don’t. We now do it with with our clients over Zoom, right? But what we do? We would just splinter off into mini groups. So it’s really easy. Ok, so we’d have like three nurses, two receptionists upstairs with me. We’d go through the same coaching course, right? They’d go down, swap over three nurses, blah blah blah, so on and so forth. So we do two three sessions, OK, which meant we didn’t have to shut the practise down in my own clinic, and we had the luxury of me being able to go there and spend a full day, right? It’s not obviously not practical for for all of my clients, for me to do that and for them to be able to afford to do that. So often what we’ll do will arrange coaching calls over a lunchtime in an evening or whatever, maybe go through five calls instead of 10. Prior to doing that, we download those 10 calls. We then listen to those calls and we create some coaching notes and then we play them back. And the one thing that we’re trying to do during this whole period is have the team coach themselves, if that makes sense.

[00:37:04] So by the time we get to session four, we’re saying, OK, what were the good points? What the positives, what the negatives, what could have we done better here? Bom bom bom bom bom. And then I just chip in with my this just one little thing I would have done differently just to make this better. And look, even if you know we look at it and say, what’s the aim of that phone call? It’s to get a booking, right? Book a consultation. That’s what we’re trying to do. Half the calls where they book the consultation could have been handled so much better, right? Whether it’s that that was a 20 minute call, that could have been five, whether that’s it could have been delivered in a better way, whether that’s they could have mentioned the USP of that particular dentist, surgeon or whoever it is they’re trying to sell to the patient. Yeah, whether it’s telling them about what’s going to happen next, whether it’s saying good bye in the right way.

[00:37:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds me of I mean, it’s nothing to do this, but it reminds me of, you know, like you go to Marks and Spencer and pick up a tub of vanilla ice cream. Mm hmm. Doesn’t say vanilla ice cream? It says Madagascan vanilla

[00:38:11] With frickin pods,

[00:38:14] Vanilla or something? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s what that’s the description of it. Yeah, yeah. So when you when you’re saying, oh, when the the patient calls up and says, I want to talk, I’m thinking of having a consultation with Dr. O’Hara. The receptionist is trained to say Dr. Bahar is one of our top implant surgeons or whatever.

[00:38:33] Let me just take this a few steps back. That patient we went back to has got money in his pocket and can choose wherever the hell they like to spend it. Yeah, and they may ring three or four practises,

[00:38:45] By the way, including not a dentist. They could. They could book a holiday in Thailand instead of turning this year. That’s important. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:38:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. But let’s say they’re on that journey of exploring. They ring three or four places. The one of the things I tell my team is this I want that patient to get off the phone and think, Crikey, that was memorable. Yeah. In comparison to the other three calls they’ve had. Yeah. So I want that to leave lasting impact for them to say well. That person’s been doing it for a decade. They train other dentists, whatever those usurps are those two or three little points, right? They also said they offer this Dental monitoring products where they allow me to take pictures from home and beam them across to them on whatever, right? So whatever all those usurps are the dentist, but

[00:39:39] You’ve trained,

[00:39:40] You’ve trained the star hundred percent me otherwise

[00:39:43] Trained the staff to say, Look, Cow Pressure’s USBs up A, B and C the next dentist.

[00:39:47] Us yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And every call and an implant call an ortho call, a general dentistry call, a cosmetic call about veneers or composites or whatever. The call is identical. Their patients are greeted in the same way they treated with the same respect. All of them may have phobia irrespective of treatment modality, right? And this just that little bit in between. Yeah, do you know what? You’re in the best possible hands here? Yeah, you’re going to come and see Dr. Behera just to let you know he’s been doing this for 20 years now. He’s done X number of cases and there’s other dentists in the local area that choose to refer their complex dentistry over to over to Dr. Behera. So you’ve come to the right place. Yeah, you could be difference to a massive difference.

[00:40:37] It makes a massive difference, you know, because the next call? Yeah, we’ve got time at 12 o’clock.

[00:40:44] Yeah. Can you tell me about your Invisalign? Yeah, it’s a clearer line that it’s straight into. It starts at three and a half thousand pounds. You get free whitening underneath a £35 deposit to book the appointment. Would you like to book? Uh, no, I haven’t got my card on me. Ok, see you. Bye! Bump down. I got one more paperwork. Hmm. Yeah. And sometimes I listen back to those calls with the principal, with the T, and I asked them, Can you just give me commentary on that call? I cast no judgement at that point. Yeah. And they say, Oh, well, that was good. It was really good. Yeah, yeah. They gave the price. They did this. They said, we got availability, blah blah blah. And they say, OK, let’s try and elevate that experience now. And let’s try and think about the three calls

[00:41:26] Costing my mind back to when I was a dentist. I would, you know, defensively, let’s say you were coming to my practise and you start saying this stuff. Yeah, defensively, I would probably say something like, I’m not interested in the kind of patient who goes around calling six practises, and they’re probably a price shopper and all of this. But. If you’re looking for massive growth, massive growth comes with taking care of all of these different things, isn’t it? It does, but

[00:41:54] The point you make there is really important because it’s valid, right? So I’m not interested and I say the worst thing that you can possibly do is stick a patient in front of a dentist who thinks they can get their teeth straightened for a thousand quid. Yeah, because you’re wasting, you’re wasting the dentist’s time, you’re wasting the patient’s time, and no one’s going to get any benefit out of this. So, yeah, not interested in these patients who were shopping around or want the cheapest price? That’s cool. So we make sure that we say something or the narrative that is explained to the patient repels the sort of patients we want to repel and attract the sort of patients we want to attract. There’s nothing wrong with that. Yeah. So I work with some clients who who are at the upper end of the price scale. The ad campaigns point to the fact that we’re at the upper end of the price scale. And if you’re a discerning patient, this is where you should be enquiring right now. And then the conversation revolves around that, OK? A lot of people say you shouldn’t talk about price on the phone, and I totally disagree with that. Yeah, me too. I think you should be giving at least an indication. We have conversations with clients all the time and they’ll say to me, So are you going to write to me? You’re going to give me a proposal of costs and this that and the other more often than not, I said, Listen, I’ll give you a rough ballpark.

[00:43:15] Now this is why it’s going to cost to work with us. Yeah, X, Y and Z. I will write to you. I’ll put it all in black and white, and it will vary, you know, 10 percent in either direction, roughly. This is what you’re looking at. And and at that point, you know, at least you’ve managed their expectations and they realise, OK, you know, we’re out of price bracket here. This ain’t working or, OK, I can afford that. I’m willing to invest that into my business. And it’s the same with the Dental patients, right? Is that be transparent upfront about your prices when it comes to talking about price. I believe that you should believe that what you are providing is exceptional value because if you don’t, that will come across in your voice, in your explanation, in the words so that you choose to use. Yeah, it’s going to be about three and a half grand. Is that OK? Yeah, versus a more confident delivery of that.

[00:44:09] So, you know, I know, I know on this podcast, we’ve been through this sort of thing before, but I think we should we should continue. The Leaders called the receptionist has done. That bit, she’s big up the dentist in the practise. Mm-hmm. Either the patient has booked in or the patient has, and then there’s a follow up process that you’ve you’ve trained the practises on and and that’s a deep thing. It’s not just a call. Once again, there’s an email, you know, depending on what, what the what the objection was. If if the guy said, I’m looking at Turkey, you’ve got you’ve got something to send a video, but

[00:44:47] I’ve got a video of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:44:51] So then let’s let’s fast forward, you know, obviously the systems need to be right. We’re talking about this in private practise. There’s there’s a shortage of patients, so patients are absolute gold. To follow up with patients is absolute got, let’s say the patient is booked in. And then I set the bit about the receptionist the first impression of the practise. Not to mention, you know, we forget this when we’re dentists here, that the patients got no idea what’s going on in his mouth, no idea what’s going to. Then he has to go on is the deck or the people. Yeah, that’s that’s what he’s got to go on. So if your front door is peeling, the paint is peeling on that front door, the patient’s going to make more decisions about the kind of dentist you are from your front door than from the filling you put in his mouth because he’s got no idea what’s going on in his mouth. He doesn’t know you used the right matrix and wedged it properly.

[00:45:47] And you know, I’ve got a story for you about that, right? When I first got into this game, yeah, I went to a new practise in Manchester Square and near Manchester Square, central London, and I consider this part of my training. He said to me, Prav, I want you to sit in every chair in my practise and have a good look around and tell me what’s wrong. Cracks in the ceiling, whatever you see, just call it out. Yeah, then I want you to go and sit, recline in every Dental chair and tell me what’s wrong. Ok. I thought, bloody hell. You know, you’re right, yeah, because while I’m staring up there with these orange glasses on or whatever right, I can see every crack in the ceiling, every cobweb, every little bit of dust. Yeah, and that’s a that’s a reflection, right? You go into a restaurant, you know, what do you do when you go? You go through wigs or whatever, right? You go to the toilet. And it’s like. Yeah. You may judge that restaurant based on the on the pre-dinner, you know, toilet break you took

[00:46:57] In the restaurant, you’re eating the food so you know what the food is like in a dentist. You have no idea, you have no idea what you need doing and you have no idea whether the guy did it right or not. No idea at all. This is really particularly cat candidly like causes pain sometimes, but sometimes the best dentists are the ones who do. They’re not particularly grateful. Yeah, because there are certain things in that where you have to push hard and you have to, you know, wedge it properly. In all these things, you’ve got no idea, but no idea what’s going on. So all you have is everything else and that goes down to people. And then, yeah, buildings.

[00:47:34] Yeah, yeah, right. But but but the whole beautiful thing, right? You don’t have to have a beautiful practise for it to be incredibly successful. I’ll hold my hands up and say, Look, our practises in terms of décor and beauty. Yeah, are probably right down there. Yeah, I’m not. I’m not saying that, you know, you’re walking into a pit, right? Nothing special about, you know, this is not a Gucci boutique hotel, five star hotel like that you see on Facebook and Instagram these days where dentists have elevated that right? And I often get asked the question, Does it need to look like a hotel? Do I need to spend this much? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Because what’s more important than all of that is that initial conversation they have with the team, the rapport that they strike up with you, right?

[00:48:27] People are as important.

[00:48:28] Yeah, yeah. And and then you know what? They’re a bit more forgiving about the little cracks in the walls and things like that that’s, you know, less important, right, that you can put as much paint and polish and plaster on your walls as you want, but you’re never going to cover up that human touch.

[00:48:45] Let’s get down to we both know there are some dentists who will see you can probably think of in your own practise. Yeah, if the same patient in front of one dentist and in front of another dentist. Mm hmm. And the examination, the treatment plan, the case acceptance. We haven’t yet got to. He started doing any treatment. Mm hmm. Just that we both know there are some dentists who are particularly good at, you know, and I think it comes to, you know, how good you are, what you think you can deliver. You trying to do comprehensive dentistry to try and do single tooth dentistry, single arch dentistry. You know, what is it that you can achieve at the same time, though? I don’t think we need to worry if you’re an NHS guy going to private, and I think you need to particularly worry that I haven’t got skill because everyone has a level of skill above which they they can’t go. And one of the nice things in dentistry is you can either keep it very simple, you know, don’t go into the whole full mouth thing. If you don’t, you totally feel like you’re you’re up to it or you can refer for that piece. So the anxiety that people have about I don’t have the right skills. I think that’s a bit over edge. But the first question about showing patients what’s possible, getting them to accept, do you think that’s teachable? I think, you know, there are courses, the whole courses on that actually, after all that stuff,

[00:50:11] Without question, without question. And yeah, and look, I’ve seen associates principles just accelerate their their treatment plan case acceptance, right? Just by adapting a logical, structured approach until they find their own groove. Naturally, there’s people out there who who are just they’re born to sell. Yeah, yeah, without putting too fine a point on it that the way that they can communicate things and are really easy to understand way the rapport that they build up and the energy between them and the patient. You can’t teach them anything, man. It’s just their right. They just deliver and convert and whatnot. And you know, there’s there’s very few of them, but they’re there, right? And then the rest of them, things can be improved. I can sit in the consultation and say, Listen, mate, you know, all that stuff. You were talking about osteo integration, doing a stance this that and the other, the angle of the implant, all that sort of stuff. I stick it in your consent form or something, right? But that that conversation that you’re having with the patient right now? Yeah, Johnson, about the human impact of what you’re about to deliver, how it’s going to affect your husband, wife, children, social life, the foods that you have access to now. Yeah. And the happiness, the confidence that we’re going, whatever those little bits and pieces

[00:51:37] Are peace of mind. You know, a lot of times in Leinster, you’re selling peace of mind. Yeah, we don’t. We don’t even realise it. When you’re selling that crown, you’re selling peace of mind.

[00:51:45] Yeah, we are. And confidence, right? So other patients is. It is a big thing, right, and one of the things I’ve spoke to a lot of my principals and associates about is you use the art of storytelling is really powerful, really, really powerful, right? So if a patient comes in and you say to them, Do you know what you remind me of? Sure, I remember Sean Wright is an ex pro boxer. He came into our practise. He used to be full of confidence bouncing around that ring gear. But years of boxing took his toll. Dental neglect call it whatever you want hides in the corner, smiles with his mouth closed. Definitely doesn’t turn up to any dinners. Always walking around with a stick of glue in his pocket, running off to the bathroom, trying to fix it back in before he mumbles under his hand. Right? And that confidence he used to have in the boxing ring, he turned into a little mouse. Yeah, and it was awful to see Sean in that position. And when we implanted those solid set of teeth into his mouth, just look at this photograph. He’s right in the front beaming, Yeah, look at his social media. Phe is actually showing his teeth. He’s got that confidence back. And now he’s running boxing classes, teaching youngsters how to build their confidence. Yeah. And that you remind me of Sean. When he first came to see me,

[00:53:04] I think I take it Sean existed. He did.

[00:53:06] He did. No, no. Let me go. No, no. I didn’t make it. Or make sure sure I’ve got Sean’s video because anyone here who wants Sean’s video sent me a message. I’ll send you the link. I’m not that good.

[00:53:22] Yes. So that story piece important.

[00:53:25] Really important, really?

[00:53:27] Did you have associates that weren’t very good at this, that you trained into being very good at this? Yeah. Yeah, important. Ok. We move on. So case acceptance or not? Yeah. And then, of course, the follow up of not OK, the training of that, yeah, dentist then starts starts the actual treatment, and I can’t emphasise enough painless. I think if as a dentist, if you can be painless, if you can be nice and if you can work hard, you’ll be fantastically successful, fantastically successful. You know, you don’t need to be a super duper dentist, but painless. It was really important, the gentleness, super important. You know, I think more important to be a gentle, painless dentist than to have full mouth Dental skills. You know, that’s how important I think it is. But let’s talk about getting becoming a better dentist, choosing the dentist you want to be and then getting the education. So, for instance, if you want to be a full mouth dentist, then I would certainly look at know some of those courses. What you guys is has a bunch of courses on that, right?

[00:54:44] Yeah. Look, I think choosing the right course provider comes down to a few things like, you know, I could step into a dentist shoes and say, Well, who would I choose, right? And anything that the IRS is delivering, I’m I’m 100 percent biased. Ok, but let’s talk about, you know, let’s talk about courses that the IRS doesn’t offer, right? So implant dentistry, for example, right? Let’s say you want to do, you know, sticks and metal rods in someone’s mouth and transform them in the day? Yeah. Whose course would you do? What research would you would you undertake to figure out whose cause you’re going to do? Are you particularly married to a specific implant system? Is that the thing? And then you look at the providers in that in that area. Do you want to take a course where you can you can actually practise live on patients under guidance and mentoring? Is that your thing? Yeah. Do you then get additional mentoring outside of that classroom where you can pay for a mentor to come into your clinic and, you know, deliver some kind of hands on training for you? You need to figure out what is it and what your pace of learning is, right?

[00:55:54] You don’t Prav Prav not to mention that the two dentists on the same course. Will some of them will take totally different things from it and totally. I mean, you do that simple thing about if I’m going on a course, contact the the organiser or the lecturer before I get there. It happens occasionally, you know, on on, on on most Vamika, I think we we teach four hundred people a year. Yeah, three or four times a year, someone contacts me or Dipesh and says, Hey, I’m coming on the course at the weekend, really looking forward to seeing you. I mean, it’s just you imagine that’s like such a simple thing, but that guy ends up becoming like, like getting more attention when he walks in, Hey, you know, remember me? I contacted you. Oh, yeah, of course he did. Then during the course, you know, we already know each other and then post course and and all it was was just one email, one one text, social interaction. I’m looking forward to coming to the course, of course. You know, I had a conversation with Matty Parsons. Yeah, and I asked him, You know, why is it, you know, he came on our course and then went on to become one of the top composite guys in the country? Why is it that he did that and accelerated like that? And then there are other people who come on on our course and never put it into practise and depression. I actually, you know, really, we feel really bad about it when that happens, you know, the person came and we didn’t give them the confidence to go ahead. But my point is it’s not about what course you do, it’s about what you get out of the course that you do in the practise that you put in. And the course is the beginning of the journey, not the end of it.

[00:57:40] And and a lot of it comes down to, are you are you and execute, sir? Yeah. And now you’re in an environment that facilitates you to be able to, first of all, practise, deliver and hone that skill. Yeah. Ok. So I go on day purchase course, I learn how to do these sexy composites, right? But the next patient walking through my door, who needs that? Yeah. Or who desires that or who wants that? It’s going to be in two months time? Mm hmm. Yeah, I can’t execute it. And so, so you know, one of the things that we advise is that have these patients lined up before you go on the course? Yeah. Whether you’re doing it at a discounted rate to start with friends, family members, nurses, whoever it is, get your hands. You know, get your hands stuck in to practising what you’ve learnt in the shorter space of time between when you left the course and when you start practising.

[00:58:40] Yeah, so true. And when you

[00:58:42] Start delivering volume, you get more confident and then you’ll go back to you guys on your forum. Ask Dipesh a question or you a question or whatever, and you get a bit of feedback and then you’re off, right? They’ve had that little push and then they can come back and watch the course again, right?

[00:58:57] Six months later, they can, you know, Matty put it down to two patients. One, his nurse. Yeah, but his nurse said to him, Can you do composite veneers for me? And he said, Sure. And he tried to do it over a lunchtime and totally messed it up. And and so he had to fix what he’d done. So he came on the course and then he had to go and replace the work. Yeah. So he had his first case done already. And then the second case was the friend or family. You know, those two cases, he puts down his whole success to that. So, yeah, OK, so what you get out of the course important. So don’t just think course, which costs think about what you’re going to get out of the course. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, we go, we move on, right? I used to tell my nurse to call up three or four patients every day and just say, Dr. Langroudi wanted to know if you were okay. Yeah, yeah. And she would say, Oh, who should I call? And I say, you know, work it out, man. The one who had the C.T., you know, the one and the fact that I used to leave it up to her, she used to quite enjoy that fact.

[01:00:05] And the first few days she would tick them and then she would check with me, say these right? And after a while, it was like obvious she would deal with it the amount of pleasure my nurse would get from the good vibes that the patients would send back. Hmm. She she was actually it was actually like a nice thing for my nurse. You’d imagine it’s a chore, right? She’s got to call these four patients every day, but she’d come back every day. She’d tell me, Oh, Mrs. Mrs Smith was so lovely on the phone and you know, people don’t expect that call, you know? And then the patients would think, you know, Dr. Langroudi asked me to call you so that would make them feel good. Such a simple thing, right? Such a simple thing, but important important. These little things are important in private industry. Next time you go to a high end hotel like Prav was saying, or a place, any place where service feels good. Obviously pay attention to what was it about that that made it feel good and then be of service to your patients in private. Then you’re going to be of service to your patients.

[01:01:03] Yeah, yeah. Without question and just just, you know, I often sit back and just pick little things up, right? Sometimes a little notes tell. You know, I’m that guy who sort of says, OK, when I went to that restaurant and this guy came in, he told me this story about this and maybe I’ll go away and write a blog post on it or something like that, right? Just just on reflection. But I do take notes when when I experience exceptional customer service and try and figure out what’s going on, what did they do? What were the little words, you know, that made you feel a little warm and fuzzy, that ready break feeling where you start glowing inside, right? I notice these things right, because because we’re in that game.

[01:01:48] All right, man. Well, we’re coming to the end of our time. Just three questions for, you know, so I mean, I’m sure we haven’t covered it all. But you know, if you do want to contact us about anything that we’ve said on this? Feel free. It’s becoming a hot topic, becoming a hot topic. It is people deciding to leave and I get it, you know, I get it. I remember when I did my VTT, the idea that a third party was had any sort of influence on my relationship with the patient. That idea used to piss the hell off me that that’s I hate that idea. Yeah. And and now nowadays, the idea that such a big part of our workforce is figured out. It’s become a specialist at how to handle that third party. Yeah, like more than half the workforce has become specialists at how to manage the NHS system rather than taking time doing these courses and things that we’ve been talking about making their practises better. Yeah. So for me, you know, much as much as it would be nice if there was a lovely working NHS, there hasn’t been for the last 20, 30 years. And so it’s, you know, it’s time that people now think about what they’re going to do next. And of course, some will stay. Some will go over and there’ll be the sort of the independent, cheaper, private and then some will be those other ones that I said that would be up. They’re going to want to be the best practises in their in their town.

[01:03:25] Yeah, look on that note. Final closing note, right? A what is the best practise? And B, where do you want to go? Right. And I’ll I don’t. I don’t. I don’t really want to name this client simply because he’s not on social media and chooses not to engage and is not a super duper dentist, right? We spoke about this last night, but that you don’t need to be special to be successful. And I will say that this guy is probably my most successful client. He runs a practise that doesn’t turn over a great amount of money by any by any measure of this, whatever yardstick you use. Yeah. But you came to me and he said, Prav, I’m working five days a week. Yeah, I’ve got a practise that I’m incredibly busy in and I’ve got some twin boys that I want to spend time with, and I don’t want to miss them growing up. Ok, fast forward 12 months later, we’ve got him to a position where he’s working two days a week. He’s the fittest and healthiest he’s ever been. Yeah, and he’s spending loads of precious time with those boys. Yeah. And in my mind, yeah, he’s my most successful client.

[01:04:34] Yeah, he’s mine. He’s defined what success is and he’s achieved, defined

[01:04:38] What success is. And it doesn’t have to be driving these flippin super cars and, you know, living in a mansion. And, you know, he doesn’t even have a Facebook profile, right? And that’s my that’s my closing note.

[01:04:53] That’s beautiful, buddy. That’s beautiful. Yeah. All right, man. Where are you on the other side?

[01:05:00] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

[01:05:10] Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

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[00:00:00] Yeah. I mean, for me, social media is a platform to engage people, and I I see myself as a role model. I don’t want to portray myself as I’m the best dentist in the world or I’m the best, but I want to teach people what worked for me will work for you. You know, do it this way. This pattern worked for me. Take a little snippet out of it. Maybe it will work for you as well. And that’s all I care about. It’s not about showing, Oh, my composite is the best or my practise is the best or I’m the best person, but I want to leave like a legacy behind. So when I leave this world, which eventually all of us will, I want people to say, Oh my God, I learnt that from Nicola. Go there. It’s good to have empathy. It’s good to listen to people, you know, to leave that line.

[00:00:49] Why?

[00:00:50] Because I’ve seen a lot of my loved ones passed away, and I just feel like if you don’t leave anything behind, you get forgotten. And also what I think is every one of us have good things in our head. Why not share it so the next generation can benefit from it? You know, if you don’t share stuff, then then it’s invaluable. It’s not going to go anywhere, it’s going to go underneath that ground. So why not get it out in the open earlier on? And then if people want to then ask you stuff, they can come to you because you’re still alive?

[00:01:27] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:45] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Nicola Gore onto the podcast. Nicola, I’ve known for a while and see her regularly on Postgrad the lectures and she’s always, always trying to learn more. I’ve always known that about her, but where she really came to my attention was with her brilliant online presence, several different accounts that I’ve seen her, but also some of our sort of very successful guests that we’ve had on this podcast cited her as a mentor, someone who really inspired them. And I’ve always said this and I’ve said it before on podcasts about your first boss being an absolutely important person and setting the direction of your your career. And so for that reason, I really wanted to get her on to to sort of just talk about her passion for dentistry. We’ve discussed before what what keeps someone passionate intensity and I don’t know anyone who’s better suited for that question than Nicola. Lovely to have you, Nicola.

[00:02:43] How are you? Thank you, Payman. I’m very well. Thank you for asking me on your podcast. I’ve really been looking forward to your podcast and it gives me a pleasure to be here with you today.

[00:02:55] Amazing. Amazing. We usually start with the back story. Mm-hmm. What’s yours? So.

[00:03:02] Oh, my back story is very heavy Payman. And you know, my my background is Iranian, so I am half Iranian, half Indian. My father is Indian and my parents met here. And then I was born in England, in Bristol. And then my parents subsequently travelled back to Iran, where they were very successful. They opened up a few hospitals in a city called Mashhad, and my father was an orthopaedic surgeon, and he did a lot of great work for the Iranian community in Iran. He even went to war, and my mom was a director of hospital, so a very strong background in health care. And when it came to the time when I needed to get to uni, my parents both decided it’s better that I come back to the UK to continue my education. So I finished my GCSEs, which were called diploma in Iran, and then I came back to the UK. So you can imagine me, 17 year old coming back to the UK with really little English and not knowing much about the English culture, apart from what my parents told me and taught me. And I was so keen not to let them down because they were so successful in Iran, but they closed shop everything to come here for me. So I was so keen that I had to get to uni and I said two years, A-levels too long, and I’m just going to try and do it in one year. The college I went to didn’t really believe I could do it, but they accepted me.

[00:04:33] I put in my Alcoff form in which was at the time was called occa form, not UCAS, and I applied for medicine, dentistry, pharmacy and chemistry. Because if you remember those times, you could apply for everything. So my strong subject was chemistry is still is. I love chemistry, so I applied for all these subjects. I got interviews for everything. I don’t know how I got offers because my English was so bad, they probably felt pity for me. But anyway, I went to every single interview and I managed to secure a place with them. So then it was nitty gritty of passing the exam. I managed to pass the exams, I got the grades required, and when it came to the crunch of choosing what to study, my father was quite insistent for me not to do medicine. He said It’s a hard career for a woman, difficult to get to the top. He could see that I have got it in me to be able to get to the top. But he was worried that maybe it might affect my family time and being a woman and, you know, being a mother, I, you know, at the end of the day, you know? And so he said, choose dentistry. So that’s how I ended up taking the box, choosing dentistry, and I entered Guy’s hospital in 1989. As for my first year, fresher, fresher week

[00:05:54] So that the transition from Iran to here without language. Why, why do it in one year, why did you decide to say I’m going to do the in one year when everyone else is taking to use?

[00:06:09] What was the reason for that? Good question. One of the main reasons was my age, so I was already 17 and a half, turning 18. So at that time, I thought, Oh my God, I’m so old, you know everybody’s or it’s only 16, 17, you know, by the time I get to uni, I’m going to be older than everybody. Like at that time, I thought, you know, 18 is so old. So that was one main thing. Second thing was that, you know, I saw how hard my father had had all these businesses in Iran. He closed everything overnight and he came here to local and he, at his age, was 50 then. So my age, which I’m now, and he was, he started fresh. So we were staying with my auntie. We didn’t have an accommodation. We were living with my auntie for a good six months before my dad managed to get a mortgage and buy a property. And, you know, watching him work so hard at his age when he had everything he had chauffeur, he had this that, you know, and he closed his entire empire to come here for me. That was my main main trigger that I said, You know, Nicolo, you can’t fail. You’ve got to get in. You cannot let your parents down. And I had that back of my view.

[00:07:25] Were you very determined child before that? Yeah.

[00:07:28] Very determined. Very bossy. An only child. And no, no. I have two other siblings two sisters, younger sisters, younger than me, one year younger and six years younger. And they’re both married to a dentist now. So yeah, both both were very Dental family at the moment. And so but I think I’ve always been very determined. Always been like had the drive to do stuff, wanted to do more. And I never thought anything can stop me.

[00:07:57] So why?

[00:07:58] I think it’s from childhood. I was given this confidence by my parents that I would be a doctor. I can do well, I can do anything, and my parents gave me a lot of confidence. I think the way my parents raised, the three of us was like, You know, first, don’t worry about anything. Secondly, go in with a clear conscience and thirdly, have have the confidence you know you’ve got. You’ve got it in your head. You can do it, you can do it, just do it. And for us, failure was never an option. Not that parents didn’t want us to fail or whatever, and they never said, if you fail is bad either. So I remember, like, I’m getting some low grades and my mom would never tell me off, but she would say, You are my doctor and you’re going to be a doctor. And I think it’s important to feed positive information to children from a young age. Rather than saying you’re stupid or you can’t do this or you got a bad grade. I think as a parent is important, and I saw that firsthand how it helped me to progress and my sisters and we all were super confident not to the point of arrogance, but super confident and to the point where because my parents kept saying, You know, you guys are going to do well, we didn’t want to let them down. And I think all that sort of subconscious psychology helped us to get to where we are now.

[00:09:20] What did your sisters end up doing?

[00:09:22] So my my middle sister, she’s an engineer, electronic engineer, as she worked for Sky for many, many years, Sky TV, and she was sort of one of the top engineers for Sky. But then she’s had a baby, so she’s taken some time out. And my other sister, she’s a lawyer, so she did biomedical in kings. And then that’s where she met her husband, current husband at the moment. And then they both decided to do some integrated studying. So she did integrated law and then Payman with my brother in law did dentistry. So they’re both doing really well. All of them are doing quite well now and really, you know, very determined they’re running businesses. So I think it all boils down to childhood, how you are raised and what’s fed into your psychology from when you’re a kid, and that really helps when you’re an adult. And of course, other things along the way help as well.

[00:10:21] I’m quite interested in this relationship between your mum and dad because I’m definitely at that time, a Persian lady marrying an Indian man in Iran. Yeah, I mean, quite a racist society, wrong?

[00:10:35] Yeah.

[00:10:35] But how did how did he cope? How do I mean, I guess he was. He was a top surgeon that must have helped.

[00:10:40] Yeah, yeah, it did. But I mean, my my parents met in England, so my mom was studying as a midwife here in the 50s. My father, he graduated from India as a doctor, but he was raised in Australia. So he travelled to UK to do all his house officer posts, and they met in a hospital called New and Hospital in Hampstead, which is now a block of flats. And and the stories that they tell me, it’s amazing, I mean, I have actually written a big, huge article for my dad in a book called NHS Workers, which is going to be published soon. And so I’ve written all his story about him because I’m just so proud of him and my mom. And they both met and then they got married in Finchley. And after that, they did a lot of various jobs. I Canterbury Bristol, where each sister was born, and then because the weather wasn’t that great, they decided to go back to Iran. But going back to your question is that to be honest with you, my my grandma wasn’t very happy for my mum to marry an Indian boy because he said that, you know, because of actually a little bit of racism, as you say, and skin colour, you know, and things like that. But when they met my dad, they fell in love with my dad and my dad.

[00:11:59] Just the most amazing person of empathy. Very quiet, man. And he my my grandma just loved my dad and agreed to the wedding. And when my dad went back to Iran, I can’t tell you Payman that you know, his practise was in the centre of Mashhad. They would have three kilometres of people queuing to see him in his practise, and he had people where they didn’t have money to pay for the visit and they’d bring him prawns or chicken and things like that. And the and the secretary would say, But you know, you’re seeing a surgeon, you can’t pay with food. And my dad would say, You know what? It doesn’t matter because my prime job is not about money, it’s about helping and giving a service. And you know, we always are hospitals full, always filled with happiness, with joy, with food. Even at the time of revolution, where there was a food shortage and in the time of Iran-Iraq war, we were always blessed. We always had food on our table. We always had people would help us. So all the stuff he did was actually a blessing to the family, and people still talk about him in Mashhad a lot.

[00:13:14] Did you learn the language as well?

[00:13:15] Oh my God, perfectly really spoke better than me. I knew, and all of us so well, honestly, because his background is Indian. So he knew a bit of Urdu and Urdu and Farsi a bit similar like vocab wise. So he did learn it fast, but not obviously as fluent. You couldn’t write in Farsi, but he could speak very well. Yeah.

[00:13:39] So sounds like an amazing guy.

[00:13:41] Oh, amazing. Amazing. I wish you could have met him

[00:13:45] As he passed away.

[00:13:46] He passed away in March, unfortunately, so he’s left a big hole in our lives. Yeah, my god, it’s been very hard.

[00:13:55] Let’s move on to guys. Mm hmm. My brother was at guys at the same time as you. We’ve just found out just now. And then she’s a small world. My brother is a dentist. My my brother’s a medick. But I remember my brother when he got there, being a bit shocked by the sort of the rugby sort of culture of guys. We led pretty sheltered, sheltered childhoods. I mean, nothing. We didn’t go to any of the stuff that you went through. We came when we were five and six and all that. Yeah, it was, you know, private school and all of that. And I remember him being shocked by the culture. Just does that resonate with you? Or, you know,

[00:14:33] It’s so funny. I mean, when I went to guys, I was just so scared because I couldn’t speak English really well. I had no idea about the the culture or what what to expect. So when I went in and sort of I was quite timid and I’m like, OK, how do I deal with this? The best thing is I keep to myself. So again, head down in books and I just thought, You know what? Even if I don’t make any friends, at least I’ll pass my exams because that’s what my intention. So I am. After the first term, I did realise that sort of public school boys stick together, the ski kids stick together, the rugby kids stick together, and it was just like a quite sort of segregation. And then there were a bunch of Asians in my year. There was quite a huge influx of Asians, Indian Asians, and I thought, OK, I can relate to them a bit more. There were no Iranians in my ear, so I actually literally stuck to them again. Their culture was very different to me because I wasn’t raised as an Asian, even though I’m half India and I was raised more Iranian. So I have to say the first year, even though it was very different, but somehow or other in my head, I was expecting it because, you know, I had only been in England one year, so I didn’t have high expectations of it should be a bit more of a pleasant place or how it should be. I was just grateful to be there.

[00:15:55] You were grateful to be in. Yeah. And did you kill it?

[00:15:58] Oh yeah. Did you? Yeah. So so basically what happened after the first year? I thought, You know what, Nicola, you’ve got through the first year now. So come on, let’s start making friends. Let’s start, you know, being, let’s change. Change yourself. You know, I’m a firm believer that we have to move, you know, when in Rome, act like the Romans do. And and I think this is the key to success for me because I don’t stay with my own ideas, I’ll challenge myself all the time. So I started improving my English the way I talk. I started sort of booking on skiing trips. If people are going skiing, Arcam skiing because I could ski because Iran, we had good ski slopes. I knew how to ski. So I tried really embracing the culture and embracing the environment rather than fighting against it to say that, no, I’m never going to be part of this because I knew this is my life now. And in that way, I made a really, really good friends, English, Indian. And then when I was in my third year, oh my God, we had a huge influx of Iranians, which then actually just changed the whole scenario for me. So and that’s, you know, I met ball back and I met, you know, a lot of other people along the way. Farid on, you know, Mona, call me and these are all my really good friends now.

[00:17:18] Amazing. So such a small world?

[00:17:22] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:17:24] So then you qualified.

[00:17:27] So yes, then eventually in 1993, I qualified. I remember those days. There was no, no. But then she was four and a half years. It wasn’t five years after I qualified. The next graduates came out in 1996, and that’s, I think, when Farid qualified and all the other Iranians I know. So basically, even though vocational training wasn’t compulsory, I decided to do it. But actually, no, I lie. It was I was the first year that vocational training became compulsory, so we had to apply through the deanery and I applied through the Deanery to get a place. But those days the trainers actually chose their trainees and it was unlike what it is now. So I basically had to apply to so many practises who were training practises. I didn’t get a single place because most of the training practises were Indian and they were looking for more Indian dentists.

[00:18:26] I think that was the reason.

[00:18:27] Yeah, definitely, especially in London. It was definitely 100 percent or there were or they had already chosen the dentists they wanted because, you know, they had friends and family who kids had graduated, so they already knew who they want. Yeah. So me not having a dental background, not knowing anyone, I’d been only in UK for about by then for about four and a half years, five years I didn’t have any network, so I called up the deanery. I spoke to Patricia, who was. A lady there, and I said, I have no place because, oh my God, there is a practise in Guildford and also not in Guildford, in Portsmouth, on the Guildford scheme, who doesn’t have a trainee? Would you like to apply there? And I’m like, Where is Portsmouth? I have no idea. So looked it up on the map, showed it to my mum and dad and they said, Oh, it’s near the sea. You know, Iranians love sea, so it’s the seaside. You’re going to love it. Apply. So I went up for an interview, obviously got the place, and I was with a gentleman called Mr Taylor. Amazing man.

[00:19:25] Yes, this is interesting, isn’t it? Because I’ve been saying the first boss, if your first boss is Nicola, you tend to go a long way. So tell us about Mr Taylor, your first boss.

[00:19:34] So Mr Taylor was a very interesting man. He was a very sweet and very easygoing. He thought I was the God’s gift to his practise because I graduated from guys and he had graduated from guys. But he thought I could teach him more than he knew

[00:19:51] Because he before we go any further. That was a pattern, wasn’t it? Guys, people hiring guys be nice people.

[00:19:57] Exactly because it was a bizarre pattern.

[00:19:59] I got a job once and the boss told me, he said, You are the first he’d been there since nineteen sixty four. He said, You are the first dentist I’ve hired is not a guy’s graduate. No way. I can believe glasses guys has a thing like that. Go ahead. Sorry.

[00:20:14] Sorry, guys. So yeah, actually going back to guys, I have to say the first time I could actually understand what everyone was saying was when I heard one of the professors saying that you guys are creme de la creme. You guys are the chosen ones. This is how they used to do it with the guys graduates. Exactly. And anyway, so Mr Taylor, he never wore gloves. He never he didn’t believe in wearing gloves. And I’m like, I was totally shocked. And then I forced him to wear gloves and he would wash the gloves in between patients. So he was very interesting, but technically he was amazing. He taught me a lot of stuff how to, you know, communicate with patients. He told me how to, you know, do major cases without worrying denture work was his, you know, his good subject. So I learnt a lot from him. But after finishing the first year, I realised he wanted to sell his dental practise to me. Believe it or not, at the age of 22, I thought, I don’t want to buy a dental practise. So I said, No, no, no, I don’t want to buy a dental practise. I really have, you know, I need to get out. I wanted to do a house officer post. I knew that I wanted to get back to guys and I said, No, no, I’m not going to do that and I don’t want the same.

[00:21:32] Portsmouth. I’m a Londoner. I wanted to stay in London. I’d only been in London like six years, like in total in the UK, and I wanted to spend more time, you know, in London, creating more bonds and friendships. So I said, No, I’m really sorry. I declined. He was quite upset about it. He he got another trainee for the following year. Then after that he didn’t get any more trainees, and I then ended up backing guys doing a house officer post which one? So I did the Restorative House officer post for six months, which was really good. I did a lot of high needs as well, like HIV clinics and sort of STD clinics where people would come to do their teeth. And we had to have like high infection control and I was under pitfalls as well then dentists as well. So I was very blessed. And I think in guys, we were very blessed because we had really top consultants, you know, Professor Smith Pittsford, we had, you know, the prosthetic section, Mr Campbell, you know, we had such strong people to culinary school. Prof. Scally was there, but he left. When I and I went, he went to Eastman. And so we had really strong consultants. So again, another six months of learning and adding more leadership values to to myself because I had to sort of look after students on the clinic as well.

[00:22:52] You party that.

[00:22:53] Yeah, that. Yet you know what? I still didn’t allow myself to party that much

[00:22:58] Because I did that job, that very restorative house job. No, no, not not English language. Ok, OK. Cardiff. And it was the best year of my life. I I enjoyed that year from the partying perspective, because you’re kind of you’re not kind of a proper dentist yet. Yeah, and you’re not a student anymore

[00:23:16] And you’re having money because you’re getting paid.

[00:23:18] You got you got some money. I just found it the perfect position in between the teachers and the students. You didn’t do. No, I didn’t.

[00:23:27] I thought what I was doing, to be honest with you, shall I tell you something? We did party a lot during uni days and especially with the Iranians who were out in clubbing Iranian clubs and all that all the time. So and then I went to Portsmouth. I had nobody there, but people would come and visit me or come back. But then when when it got to the sort of guys again, it was quite serious again, you know, back to like, Oh my god, I’ve got to speak to this. Listen to this consultant and sort of how to deliver the work, and even though it was easy, it was like a nine to five, sometimes nine to four, you escape early, but I didn’t party that much. I think guys, people don’t party as much as Cardiff did. Maybe, maybe I was in

[00:24:10] The wrong group. It depends on your life. I mean, I see you partying all the time now. Now I do with all your buddies. Oh my god, now I do. Yeah, and and you know, it’s just it’s a time of life kind of issue, isn’t it? You find yourself in a particular situation where everything’s right. For me, it was that six month. How sure would you stop it?

[00:24:30] God, I’m so glad you enjoyed it.

[00:24:32] I did it. So then, OK, you went back. Did that house job felt a bit more confident, I guess.

[00:24:40] Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Much more confident. My language was a lot better. And then at the time, when I did the house job, I realised I really want to do a master’s degree and I said to myself, I have to do the master’s degree. I really liked restorative dentistry, so I then thought I was looking at the pathways and realised I need to do PhDs and to do PhDs, because at the time you had to do PhDs, you had to do 18 months of house jobs to be able to do part two PhDs.

[00:25:08] So I left. Yes, right? Yes. Yeah.

[00:25:11] No, not PhDs. Yeah. And it was quite hard. So I thought, OK, then this is it is what it is, so I have to go for it. So then I applied for oral surgery house aceto post and oh my

[00:25:27] God, I killed my. I hated it.

[00:25:30] I hated it. I hate. How long did you do yours for?

[00:25:33] Six months, six months? It wasn’t. It was house to house job.

[00:25:36] Where were you

[00:25:37] Calling

[00:25:38] Elaine Cardiff? Okay, so I was in Mount Vernon Hospital,

[00:25:42] Which I had excellent.

[00:25:44] Oh my god, it was hard work. Mount Vernon, Hillingdon and joint with Watford and North Vic Park. So we get we got a lot of trauma cases. We got a lot of people suicide doing everything. Bashing faces came to us in in our department and also a lot of oral cancer mouth cancer operations like that. So I had eight months of that month.

[00:26:12] I say show of that, this that must have made a man if you made it one of them.

[00:26:16] That’s made me what I am now. I am not joking with you. That created Nicola Gower. That was it.

[00:26:23] You know, I had I had Alan Berg in the Cornish dentist on AHA, and he he did one of those jobs and he said he adored it, loved it so much, decided to become an implant ologist in that job and all this and I said the exact jobs I hated every moment of it. Yeah, I hated the on court. I hated the

[00:26:42] The uncle was the one in four or one.

[00:26:45] Do you remember one in four one? But it was. It was, you know, in Cardiff when they had a rugby game, people would, especially if it was England, Wales. Yeah, they have massive fights. People would put glasses in the other people’s faces and all of this and I used to I used to hate it. But what we were saying was I would definitely recommend it to anyone to make a man of you because once you’ve done that, nothing else sort of faces you.

[00:27:10] Yeah, obviously, you’re so right. Payman Honestly, it just like I remember the first day, so I joined on a Friday and then they said, You’re on call this weekend and I’m like, Yeah, where do I stay? Where do so? They gave me, they showed me. The accommodation was while walking miles away from the hospital. Mount Vernon Hospital is a spooky place. People say they’ve got a lot of ghosts and all the honesty, and all the wards are separate and they’re all outdoor.

[00:27:38] Which Town is in?

[00:27:39] It is in Northwood. It’s in London, Middlesex, Middle Middlesex. Yeah, so I moved in on Friday to the accommodation and then Saturday I was on quote from Friday night. Yeah, and before that they did a ward round. So I had Gary, who was my registrar, was from New Zealand. He did a ward round with me to show me what to expect for the weekend. So first thing we go, we’re going to burns unit where they treat a lot of burns and there were patients there which were lying on gentamicin on all sorts of funny antibiotics I’d never heard before. And this particular lady shall never forget she was lying on this bed gentamicin being infused into her a lot of leeches on her face because I had done a skin graft for her and the only way where they could get the blood flowing into the skin graft by putting 48 hours of leeches on her skin. Literally the creature needed. And I looked at her and I said, OK, what am I supposed to do? He goes, Well, every four hours you have to check her bloods because gentamicin affects the liver and the kidneys, and we have to do all the blood tests to make sure her kidneys and livers are functioning well. And you have to. Move the leeches around, and I’m like, Are you kidding me? So the nurse looked at me and she goes, Have you done this before? I said, no.

[00:29:04] And she rolled her eyes up and I thought, This is it. I’m in for a long weekend, but that just got better and better. I mean, I was like, it’s just like, you know? And at one point I sat down with my consultant and I said, Why did you hire me? I said, You knew that I have no idea about this. He says, we like people who have no idea because we can’t teach them from scratch. And after six months, I thought, You know what? I can’t do this anymore. I just can’t do this job. This job is killing me. I lost so much weight over this and so much sleepless nights because, you know, learning to put when flaunts in trying to find beds for patients and trauma patients, stitching patients up, you know, with no nurse opening the clinic on your own at three a.m., you know, to bring people into stitch their lips and this and oh my god, how is it going to turn out or they’re going to look OK or disfigured, you know, with my stitching? It was a big learning curve, but when I left the place, I was like, You know what? After 18 months, I said, Nicola, you are now Nicola go. You can actually proudly raise your head, head up and say, You are Nicola. Go now because I went through it all.

[00:30:15] It’s like climbing Everest or something like the actual process is an absolute nightmare. But when you finish it, you look back and say, you just

[00:30:23] Think amazing and you won’t believe at the time minimum, would my husband were dating and we were just sort of just started dating then? And I would tell him to come and stay with me in the accommodation because I was so scared to walk to A&E on my own at two a.m. and he would walk me there. And then to the point where then the consultants realised that that he’s doing this because the security guard said it. And then they said, Why is this happening? I said, because I’m literally scared to walk on my own. And then they they said he can’t do this because he’s not hospital staff. So we’ll get you a security guard because I was literally scared. I was scared to walk. It was a long walk for my comedy. Whoever worked in Mount Vernon, they will sympathise with me. It was a long

[00:31:12] Did you guys meet guys?

[00:31:14] So we met in a party in Guy’s So in Queen Mary. He was studying at Queen Mary at the time and he we had they had an Iranian society there and we had the Iranian society in Guy’s hospital. So then we met through that Iranian society. So of course, he fell in love with me. Then that’s my story. Anyway.

[00:31:39] He pursued you.

[00:31:40] Oh, absolutely. And the rest is history.

[00:31:45] So, OK, you’ve now. Now you’re pretty confident worker. Yeah, you’ve done the restorative job. You’ve done this nightmare that you’ve just discussed. Mm hmm. Now, were you thinking at all? You wanted to? You wanted to get a post-grad, I guess. Yeah. You know, a lot of people don’t do that, but I guess you had your dad to sort of look at in that respect, someone who’s gotten really good at something academic. Yeah, academically, yeah.

[00:32:13] Academic, yeah.

[00:32:14] So was that always? Was that always your plan? Were you always thinking, I’m going to become a specialist of one, some sort like, I’m going to learn more, I’m going to get more education?

[00:32:22] Yeah. I mean, when I first finished Dental School, I didn’t think that I thought, you know, I didn’t even know what I wanted. But as the years went by, I realised that I really I am academic and I realise that I want to. I want to do more. I don’t want to just stop at a BDS. So that’s when I started applying for MSC courses, and that’s when I realised my my journey was to do PhDs and to to be able to get into a master’s degree. So I kept applying from 1996, I kept applying and I kept getting rejected. So I applied to East. When I applied to Queen Mary, I applied to guys. I applied outside London, Birmingham, everywhere I could think of. But I was getting rejected because I didn’t have my PhDs yet. Then I started working in a practise. I don’t know if you remember called Whitecross Dental practises, they were called.

[00:33:11] Yeah, yeah. Do you remember that? Well, yeah. Well, Paul Mendelssohn just passed away.

[00:33:18] Oh no, I didn’t know. Oh, God bless him. He he was a lovely man. I met him a couple of times. Oh, God bless him.

[00:33:26] He was pioneer

[00:33:27] Real. Very honestly. He had the vision. He had the thoughts. He was very driven. And I think the only problem was that he wasn’t there all the time in his practises. And that’s why the practise didn’t do well. But honestly, God bless him. But I learnt so much from from his vision and ethos of running Dental practises and how he wanted to be so up to date and modern. All his practise were really modern, modern. Beautiful. I worked in the Angel Islington branch, which was opposite the station, is still a Dental practise now. And I was there for a year. We had seven dentists there and actually I made really good friends with loads of them are still in touch with them. And then they had loads of balls and, you know, parties and get togethers with all the different branches. And through that, I made a lot of other friends who were then subsequently travelling to Australia. So that’s when in 1997 I travelled to Australia and I stayed in Australia for a year and I worked there as a dentist in doing oral surgery, interestingly in a hospital and I was earning money as well as enjoying myself. That’s when I started partying Payman.

[00:34:40] If you asked me when I

[00:34:41] Started partying, that’s when I started putting the two of you go. Yeah, no, no, no. Just me on my my own. I mean, I we weren’t married then, so I went on my own and we went with I went with a group of my friends, boys and girls, and we all stayed in that accommodation in the hospital. So we had a ball, so it was there. So we stayed in two in three places Brisbane, in in Rockhampton and then in Cairns, up north and then in Cairns. And we did a lot of flying dentists. It’s a big

[00:35:11] Step, a big step to do that

[00:35:12] Step on. What was it?

[00:35:14] What was it? What was it? What were you thinking? I mean, your family were here? Yeah, you’d have been here that long. No. I mean, were you actually thinking you want? You want to have a good time and then travel and see the world?

[00:35:25] You know, my dad, my dad was raised in Australia, of course. Yeah, because he when he was young, his father was an ambassador of India to Australia in Canberra. And my grandfather was a professor in chemistry, but he was an ambassador to the South High Commissioner in Canberra as well for a good couple of years. And they went on a boat from India on a big ship from India to to Canberra, and he did all his studying. That’s why my dad doesn’t have an Indian accent because he was raised in in in in Australia. And then he came. He went to India to do his medicine. So he always taught me so many stories about Australia and I really wanted to see Australia. I really wanted and it was just like back of my mind. And when this opportunity arose and these people were talking about Australia, they’ve got jobs, they’ve got this. Gdc will accept our qualifications. So they all told me, why don’t you come for a month, come for a month, see how it is. You can even get a job for a month, you know, and those things were so easy to get jobs there. Yeah. So I said, OK, they were going earlier. I said, You guys, you register me as a GDC, you know, with my GDC, get my Australian board ship for me. I paid all the money and everything to them, and they gave them all my certified copies of my degrees and everything, and they took it all there. They registered me and then they got me a job. And a month later I went. I flew to flew to Australia. I went to different impression.

[00:36:57] What was your impression of Australia when you got there?

[00:37:00] Very friendly, very nice environment, even though it was winter, but it was amazing. The work ethos was work hard but easy, work smart. So people were extremely friendly, very welcoming.

[00:37:15] I started of dentistry higher there,

[00:37:17] Very high standard high than I think. So I think very high in general. I think it’s very high. They come out of their comfort zone a lot in, you know, in all pretty. It’s all privatised in Australia. They have the hospital based dentists like I was just to do extractions and to do dentures. And maybe Paul picks the patient getting the patient out of pain, but no major cosmetic work and the and the rest is all private dentistry. Everyone’s got dental insurance a bit like America. But I think what the difference was that as a newbie going to Australia, I found them a lot more friendlier than when I first came to the UK in UK. I or maybe because I wasn’t that confident myself when I first came to the UK, I didn’t find the friendly, but when I went to Australia it was very different. I settled in really, really well and finding jobs was so easy to get jobs.

[00:38:16] London, we we think that is such a great city and all that, but it’s one of the most lonely cities in the world.

[00:38:23] It can be, and

[00:38:24] It’s clicked out very much. It’s not centralised. Like it’s not like, I don’t know if you know other towns like Birmingham. Yeah, or Sheffield, these towns, everything’s in one place. Like, if you want to go out, there’s one major area you go right in. In London, it’s very fragmented and this question of how welcoming they were, I think it’s an interesting question here because firstly, you were in a small town in London, some major city. But the how people talk to each other and how people communicate with each other. I mean, I remember in the US, once I sat on a plane, I was going from Los Angeles to Miami like a long flight. Yeah, and the guy who sat next to me as soon as he sat down, he started talking to me. And then and then we talked for six hours or something, and then we ate and slept or whatever. And I thought that I’ve met a soul mate. Yeah, because we’ve spoken for such a long time and straight away and connected and all of this. Yeah. But when the when the plane landed and they said it was like, OK, see you later. Bye. Anyway, you know, I thought we were going to exchange numbers. We were going to become lifelong friends here. And I realised that I talked to my cousin who lives out there, and she said, Look, we’re very quick to get to a certain point, but then very slow to become very close.

[00:39:48] Oh, interesting,

[00:39:49] Which is the opposite of here. Yeah, yeah. At the beginning, everyone’s very standoffish. Yeah. But if they like you, then eventually it’ll be. You’ll come in close to quicker, which is interesting. So that might have been part of the thing. So did you think about staying in in Australia, moving to Australia?

[00:40:06] Was that a good idea? Honestly, every day I was talking about it, I really want to live here. It’s amazing. You know, I was on the beach at two o’clock every day, you know, I was on the beach, were surfing, were doing scuba diving, I became a paddy advanced. You know me, I love, I love to do coasters and things like that. So, yeah, I love to do courses. I love to do stuff like that. So I thought, You know what? Let me do scuba diving now. So I learnt to be a scuba diver. Quite advanced. We did the Great Barrier Reef. I was living a dream, you know, because till then I was studying very hard. I was trying to settle into a new life. But when in 1997, I felt confident, I felt I’ve achieved stuff, I felt I can proudly put my head up and say that I’ve achieved, you know, because I went through all these difficult jobs and everything. And that’s why I was just having. I just let my hair down. Basically, then the real me came out and I met lots of gorgeous, lovely people there who were amazing. I got a lot of job satisfaction because my oral surgery background helped me so much.

[00:41:16] We used to take teeth out from Aborigines up in in the Northern Territory. We flew there to take to take teeth out. So, you know, I got a lot of job satisfaction at the same time. So then my mom called me, I called my mom and I said, Mom, you know, I really love Australia. I think I’m going to stay another couple of months and whatever. And she goes, Oh, OK, whatever. You know, if you’re happy, you know, do you have money? You know the same things parents always say, Are you OK? Are you comfortable with the accommodation? Because those days there’s no face time or anything? I couldn’t show them anything. I said, No mom, everything is fine. I’ve got good accommodation, good friends. So she said, the only thing is we’ve got a letter here saying, you’ve been accepted to Royal London for some courts. Have you applied for something? I said, What? What is it? Can you read it to me? So she read it that I’ve been accepted to do a master’s in clinical dentistry in Royal London Hospital.

[00:42:08] And I said, what I

[00:42:11] Said, when did that letter come? Oh, I only came a few days ago. I said, Mum, that’s like my dream. I said, Why did you keep it from me? She said, Oh, you know, your dad said, Don’t disturb her. She’s having fun. You know, it’s not important. I said, Well, this is like what I’ve been aiming for since 1995, doing all these, you know, PhDs and this and that and house jobs and stuff. I said, Mom, just call them, tell them, I’m coming, I’m coming back to the UK. I’m accepting this job. So my mom says, Are you sure this? I said, Look, mum, I have to do it. I’ve got this is my life. I want to do this master’s degree. But I said, What is the clean? I don’t apply for Emmeline Dental. I applied for MSC, so my mom said, I have no idea. Just do you want to ring them? So I rang them. I spoke to Professor Wright, who was the dean of Queen Mary of Royal London at the time. Lovely, lovely man. And he was doing. They were doing this joint master’s programme with Gary Pollock. I don’t know if you know Gary Pollock, who sadly passed away. Amazing man, one of my role models. I have to say amazing man. And I spoke to them. I said, I have no idea what this programme is. They said it’s a it’s clean. It equals to two masters degrees. It’s not one master’s degree, it’s two years full time. It leads to specialisation and it’s orthodontics, fixed and removable implants, everything in restorative. I said, Oh my God, this is my dream. But they said it’s two years full time, so you’ll you won’t have any income and you’ll probably have to get a loan or whatever. I said, I don’t care. I’m coming

[00:43:42] To just pay for the course

[00:43:44] I had to pay. Yeah, so you pay three. I think at the time was £3000, a term I paid for two years. So nine pounds or two times 18000 and then the cost. Of living, I was living at home anyway, so it was fine, but then I did carry on working in Whitecross on Saturdays to help with the income and also keeping my hand in the dentistry. So I came back, this was I think they told me in August that they accepted me and I came back September, so I wasn’t. I was in Australia for a year. I was there for a year. I came back September 1998 back to UK and I started Dental programme. I was the second batch to do the clean dance programme. It was all on site, nothing sort of online or anything. Everything was hands on full on everything, lab work, everything. And I had two amazing people with me, Jaubert, which I don’t know if you know him and Fortis Malus and they’re my best friends, best friends for life because they they we were together. We studied together day and night, and we did a lot of work together, a lot of lab work together. We were and we passed together. So it was a it was an amazing two years of my life and I finished that in two year, 2000 difficult calls. Yeah, very, very, very, very difficult. Of course. Very difficult course. Very integrated, very pressurised. We had to do loads of stuff like, you know, you know, things coming out of your comfort zone again every time and, you know, treatment planning for mouth, the full mouth cases,

[00:45:25] Lab work as well.

[00:45:26] Yeah. And we did all the lab work ourselves, which is to be honest with you, Payman. That is the key to a good dentist, I think, to do the lab work like nowadays. Unfortunately, undergraduates don’t get to do a lot of lab work, and they don’t get to do a lot of hands-on dentistry when they’re undergraduates and it reflects on their work. It does reflect for me the lab work I did in guys. The lab work I did during my Emmeline Dent actually established my dentistry because now when I look at restorative work, I know before I’ve even fitted them in the patient’s mouth, I know what’s going to be wrong. I know it, I can see it. And also, if something is wrong, I can rectify it. So I don’t know if you did a lot of lab work in Cardano, you did.

[00:46:11] We had we did some. I remember one, there was one one crown where I had to. The patient was coming in or something and I just went to a lab and I paint the lab to make.

[00:46:24] I love it. I love it.

[00:46:26] But it was one kind of like that.

[00:46:29] Which year did you graduate?

[00:46:31] 96 Oh, you graduated ninety one. You said the first year that was the five.

[00:46:37] Yeah, OK, so you aged 96? Yeah. So, you know, so I’m clean. Dental was again a turning a turning corner for me because it pushed me more into knowing that I want to actually be academic. I love I love academia and also I love teaching. It made me feel that I really the love of teaching grew in me because we were teaching undergraduates when we were in Queen Mary in Royal London. And that said, sort of my other bit came out that, OK, I love teaching as well.

[00:47:09] So I’d imagine unimagined someone who’s done all of that. Hmm. Would then go straight into private practise. Hmm. So, yeah, I did.

[00:47:19] So I the way so I started working at four boots, boots, Dental care.

[00:47:24] When that’s done.

[00:47:25] Yeah, yeah. So I started working for Boots. Boots at the time opened up millions of dental practises. One of them was a specialist practise in Watford and some were called Harlequin Centre, which now has changed his name to into and I. It was a huge practise multidisciplinary had orthodontics, had oral surgery or so everything, and I met some lovely people. Mark Hamburger, Brett Lefkowitz, who were essential in starting off my implant career and as I met them, started working with them and in that same practise I met a guy called Anvar Omar and where it was amazing, he was a foundation trainer, but he had recently sold his practise and he started working for boots. So there were some top people working with me at the time, and I was learning and learning a lot from them, observing them, and I didn’t have a patient. I would go into their room and I would observe. And South African dentists are amazing Payman. Honestly, their work is just superb. So I was going in, observing them, looking at their work, getting lots of tips, you know, and always learning. So one day hour came to me on at the time. By that time, I was married and I was pregnant with Jasmine, my first baby. So and Mike came to me and said, Nicola, I’ve got a story to tell you. I said yes on my tell me because look, I sold my practise in burnt oak. But I am originally South African and I. Want to go back to South Africa because my parents are there and my children want to move out of UK, so I’m going, I’m going back to South Africa and maybe Australia.

[00:49:03] But when I sold my practise, he said with the money because he didn’t want to pay the lot of tax he opened up, he got a place in Harrow Field, where was a computer shop. Yeah, he painted it and he put a dental chair in there and he said, This is Harold. We’ll Dental practise OK, no patients, nothing but just to be able to use his money a bit before he’s deciding what he’s going to do. And he said that a lot of patients have expressed their interest to come of my old patients to come to this practise. But he said, really, I’m on a time limit and I want to go back to go to South Africa. So he goes, Why don’t you come on, set up your own practise here, you’ve got all the knowledge, you’ve got all the skills I can see you’re driven. And I’m like, Anwar, can you see me? I’m eight months pregnant. And I do. I really want to do this. I spoke to Mahmoud and he said, Well, let’s at least go and see the place. I said, I don’t even know where Harold Weald is because it’s near summer. I said, I don’t know where Stanmore is. He said, Just come anyway. We we went, we went there and we had to look literally. It was an empty room, one Dental chair in the centre, and that was it. I said, Anwar, this is not a dental practise, he said. But you can make it. It’s a squat practise. You can make it. So I spoke to Mahmoud, and Mahmoud said, This is your opportunity.

[00:50:27] Come on, do it. You always wanted a dental practise. I said, I’m working. I’m going to have a baby. He goes, So what? We’ll help each other. At the time, Mahmoud was in computers. He was working for a Japanese investment bank and he was a contractor. And I said, But you’re so busy how I’m going to do this because just let’s go for it. So anyway. I think it was like exchange a little small amount of money, like 20 grand or something like that with Anwar. And we got the practise. We got the practise in two thousand and three, 2002, 2003, something like that. We we set up and we started working and I set up the practise. We made it into one surgery. We started off with Anwar’s original patients who and I spoke so nicely about me that they all wanted to come and see me. They didn’t even know me, started off with them. Then word of mouth got bigger and bigger. We did absolutely zero marketing the practise build up. Then I needed to get another surgery and we built another surgery in there. And all this time then I had my second baby and all this time was getting busier and busier. So I brought in. We made another surgery, so we converted into a three surgery practise, got more nurses, more staffing. And then it got to a point where I said to my, You know what? You need to be more Dental, more Dental, because this way it’s not going to work. You’re doing your contracting. I’m having to run two kids. The business is so difficult, especially when it’s squat practise.

[00:51:55] It’s interesting because up to this point, you were being your dad. Yeah, but now it sounds like you’re being your mum, right?

[00:52:01] Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you change hats all the time. And then I said, I need another dentist as well. I can’t operate like this. So we brought in some associates they didn’t work out. Unfortunately, at the end, I said, You know what? My sister then qualified as a lawyer and my and her boyfriend at the time, Payman qualified as a dentist from Queen Mary. And then it said, all patients looking for a job, you know, and at the time, you could still choose your vet. So why don’t you apply to be a vet trainer to me? My sister said that and I said, Ninette, you know, I’ve just given birth who want, you know how I hadn’t even given birth? I said, OK, for the second child, I said, OK, let me apply. Let’s go. So I applied for it. I got an interview. I was interviewed by several people who are quite high up in the ordinary. At the time they looked at me, they said, Are you sure you can handle this? I said, I can handle anything just, you know, I’d love to be a trainer. I got the post and Payman was my first trainee and he came in.

[00:53:06] He started working in surgery too, and he was there all the time. Amazing, amazing clinician and Ninette helped me on reception because then at the time, Mahmud got a position as a dental therapist to study back in Royal London again to study as a dental chair, to become a dental therapist. Because I pushed him so much, I said, Please go and do something related to dentistry. So Payman comes in to be my trainee, Ninette says. I’ll help you on and off because she had just finished a law degree was applying for low places law firms, she said, I can help you on and off on reception and you can hire staff and Mahmood can go back to university. So Mahmood was, I think, 40 41 at the time, something like that. He went. Man, he went back to uni. I had two young kids under the age of two, under the age of three, and one was my first trainee. Honestly, again coming out of my comfort zone. Yeah, it was not easy, but it was an interesting journey.

[00:54:13] And you said this was a mainly NHS situation,

[00:54:16] So this was mainly NHS. We had at that time was fee per item. It wasn’t like what the contracts we have now. So whoever came in would pay. But then we had some things which we would do privately like composites. I remember that, but mainly an NHS practise. So I came out of boots and left boots just in time, to be honest with you, because Boots got sold with one penny exchange. Unfortunately, the corporates didn’t do well at the time. Whitecross didn’t do well boots and do well, but but I learnt so much from boots. Everything I do now in my practise or the compliance or the stuff like Stitch, you see stuff I learnt very early on in year 2000, 2001, 2002 from Boots. Boots was running their practise. Really, you know, compliance was on top of their list. Yeah, and the materials, the equipment, intra oral camera, everything was digitised. So when I came into opening this practise, I was the first practise which had digital technology.

[00:55:21] So x rays,

[00:55:22] Digital x rays we had Kodak for we want. We were one of the first practises to have Kodak or four installed into the practise and digital x rays, the scanner, a Vista scan. We were the first one of the first practises and I kept pushing me, Niccolo, you can do this and I was amazing. I have to say one of my role models and my Omar, and we’re still very much in touch. And he always he always praises me on everything I do. He he’s really role model me a lot, and he was the one who would was enticing me. Come on, Nicola, you can do it. He’s actually who pushed me to open up my practise from squads and leave boots, he said. Leave it, you’ve got too much skills to work for someone. You’ve got to work for yourself.

[00:56:06] Do you remember? Do you remember the time it went from surviving mum to actually it’s paying the bills and it’s, you know, it’s actually fun to go to work. And how long did it take to go from one to the other? Um, because in the beginning, yeah, so hard in any business, isn’t it? Is.

[00:56:24] It is hard, I think. I mean, like you, you know you, you opened up your new business. Everything is risky. You know, everything is such a you’ve got to take a risk. But if you have a bit of a backup, then it’s not so much of a risk. It’s a challenge. So because Mahmoud at the time was working and we had income, we had backup. So it wasn’t like, Oh, we

[00:56:48] Going to put food on the table

[00:56:50] Exactly so we could pay our mortgage. You could pay our bills. And this was like more like a vacation for me is my dream. Let’s do it, you know, a bit like everything else I’m doing now in my life, you know, it’s a dream. But then if it pays, why not, you know? And then the only time it became reality that, oh my god, I’m now putting the food on the table is when Mahmoud actually became a student and he he left his work, so income was then all up to the practise. We had to earn money from the practise to survive, and that is when it got a bit shitty. But at the time I had a trainee, so I had a bit of income from the from NHS because of that. And also I was working more full time because the kids were a little bit older and so it was easier. So it all happened at the right time. But you can never say that you’re always out of out of the cold water, if you know what I mean, you’re always in it because being self-employed, it’s always up and down. Yeah, isn’t it until you really get established? So even now that I’m really established, I’ll still have my moments where I do worry, you know, income coming in, you know, my patients look, have my diary marketing. You know, you do worry all the time, I think being self-employed. And that’s why sometimes I just think nurses are so lucky and my, you know, staff are so lucky. They get their money at the end of the month and they don’t have to worry about anything. But whereas practise owners and self-employed people are always concerned that, you know, where are we going to be OK for the next, I don’t know, three years, four years, you know, so that projection always is in your mind

[00:58:31] And we talk about these different hats. The clinician. The teacher and mentor and now, you know, the business side that you’ve just discussed the management bit. Mm hmm. Which one of them do you like the most? Or do you like the mix? Well, by the way, you’ve got several others, would you?

[00:58:52] Author Yes, exactly. Author And also, I have my association now. British-iranian Dental Association.

[00:59:00] Ok, there you go. Yeah, yeah. Of course. I forgot to mention that

[00:59:03] I think

[00:59:03] We’re to beaches, which is your worst. Where’s really your passion? Is it in the Meccano? Like the fitting the full mouth rehab together and happy patients smiling, you know? By the way, myself, I used to love patients.

[00:59:17] Yeah, patients.

[00:59:18] Yeah, you know, I stopped dentistry 10 years ago and I missed patients. Do you really? I don’t miss teeth. Yeah, I do miss patients. No. So what is it for you now?

[00:59:28] So for me, I mean, it’s interesting how you say you miss patients because with patients you do build up friendship, you know, and you you learn a lot from them. And I do miss patients, but I have to also add to this that patients have become very difficult now, very demanding. And I think COVID has had a big long term effect on this, you know, and people want things now, especially with social media, the pressure of things like Deliveroo delivers instantly. You know you, you click on a button and you have your clothes in a package from Amazon. You know, people are like this now. Payman. I don’t know if you realise that, but everybody is instant. Why didn’t you reply to my email? I emailed you last night. Why didn’t I get a reply?

[01:00:12] It’s interesting. I know, I know that people are like that, but I hadn’t thought about the effect of it on dentists. It’s very interesting. So you’re seeing COVID itself is made people more. Absolutely. It’s because they like that

[01:00:24] More edgy people are much more edgy. I don’t know if anybody else would agree with me, but people are far more edgy. They’re much more demanding and they they want they pay. They want it, you know, and they feel as a paying person, they should have it now deserve it. They deserve it. Exactly. And delivering that is hard. You know, you’ve got to be on top of everything. Your Google reviews have to be good. Your Instagram has to be good, your presence has to be good. You know, you’ve got to show what that you are good at this and and on and off media, you’ve got to be the same. So a lot of my social media pages of my patients come from social media and, you know, they come in and it’s so hard to be on and off social media to be the same. Sometimes they’re not having a good day, you know, maybe you’re not that fun logo. Maybe you’ve had a rough day. Maybe someone sick in your family. Maybe something’s happened. Is affected your mood, you know? So, you know, it’s a low pressure, most people.

[01:01:23] It’s interesting that you noticed social media and capitalised on it at at, at our age. You know, when I would say that when you talk to people of of your generation and my generation, many of them don’t even do social media. No. But you, you saw it. You saw it for what it was.

[01:01:43] Yeah. I mean, for me, social media is a platform to engage people and I I see myself as a role model. I don’t want to portray myself as I’m the best dentist in the world or I’m the best, but I want to say I want to teach people what worked for me will work for you. You know, do it this way. This pattern worked for me. Take a little snippet out of it. Maybe it will work for you as well. And that’s all I care about. It’s not about showing, Oh, my composite is the best or my practise is the best or I’m the best person. But I want I want to leave like a legacy behind. So when I leave this world, which eventually all of us will, I want people to say, Oh my God, I learnt that from Nicola. Go there. It’s good to have empathy. It’s good to listen to people, you know, to leave that alone.

[01:02:34] Why?

[01:02:35] Because I’ve seen a lot of my loved ones past pass away, and I just I feel like if you don’t leave anything behind, you get forgotten, you get forgotten. And also what I think is every one of us have good things in our head. Why not share it so the next generation can benefit from it? You know, if you don’t share stuff, then then it’s invaluable. It’s not going to go anywhere, it’s going to go underneath that ground. So why not get it out in the open earlier on? And then if people want to then ask you stuff, they can come to you because you’re still alive?

[01:03:12] I had a conversation with family that. Yeah, I was I was asking him about, you know, when I see you guys on on social, you’re having such a great time partying all the time. Yeah. And I said, I said to him, Well, all these people, you’re partying with dentists. Yeah. And he said, Yeah, yeah. Mainly they are. And he said, Oh, mainly they’re, you know, regular dentists, you know, regular people. But you said, Nicola, she wants to be the prime minister. I don’t think he really meant you wanted to be prime minister, but there is something in you that wants to like, leave, leave a mark. Yeah. Or, you know, they make a difference.

[01:03:50] I love reaching out to people. People tell me you sold her a wheeled dental practise, which was your baby in 2009. For various reasons. We had to sell it. And they say, But you still there. It’s 2021 and you’re still there and you have another practise. You could have easily moved into that practise. And one of the main reasons Payman, which you might laugh at me, was that I just love training. I love to train the young generation. And I knew by staying in Hyrule Field is my only opportunity because I didn’t have an NHS contract in my Tortorici Dental studio, which I am, which is all practise. I don’t have it, and to get an NHS contract wasn’t easy. So I knew I should stay in Herrold. And also I knew that I have a good pool of patients who are here, who who are going to keep my income going. And also sunny was my foundation trainee. So what better than that? He’s already looking up to me is my trainee. I was his trainer, so you know, and everybody in the practise knows me. So why leave, you know, just cut down the hours? And I knew that by carrying on being a foundation trainer, this will give me the platform to do other valuable things to do.

[01:05:12] And I did. And now I’m receiving all the fruits, you know, 12 years down the line. All the fruits are coming to me now and that this is something that I’m trying to get across to everyone. I said, You have to give yourself time to grow. You cannot grow in one day. You can’t plant a seed and and seed next year, that’s grown. It takes time. It takes time for things to grow. And now I have grown and I still have room for growing. There’s lots I need to do still, but persevering and persevering with training, even though I don’t get no money from it because I’m not the practise principal. I’m just the tutor there. But it wasn’t the money side for me. It was just persevering and giving myself time to grow as a teacher, to grow as a person. It helped me towards running, writing the book that I wrote, and without that, I wouldn’t have been able to do that. But going back to your original question is that which one is the better thing for you, like teeth running a business marriage? You know, being a mother, to be honest with you, the whole package is it’s exciting for me, and it’s been a very challenging road, really challenging, challenging a lot of ups and downs.

[01:06:30] And you know, the way it is dropping kids to school, picking them up at the right time, homework. This at the same time running a business staff call in sick. You don’t have a nurse to work with. You know, there’s so many challenges along the way, but I’ve always met the right people. I’ve always been blessed to work with the right people. Maybe part of it is because I don’t see them as my staff, I see them as family and we work really well together. I have a lot of respect for the people I work with, and maybe that makes them feel that the business is this. And a lot of my staff feel that the business actually belongs to them rather than to me. And they sometimes tell me off for overspending for this that and I love that. And when my nurse yesterday told me I was actually looking forward to coming back to work with you, you know how I felt. I felt like a Million Dollar Woman, you know? So for me, the whole package is good. I can’t say which one is better.

[01:07:27] I think the word you used respect is actually an excellent word with regards to the way you should deal with your staff, your people and your juniors, because often that’s one of the things that goes out of the window. And you know, one thing I’ve noticed about staff, and now we’ve got quite a large, huge number compared to before. Yes. And it’s something that COVID taught me very well is that you’re not you’re not hiring the body, you know, it’s not like the person doesn’t have to be there at that time. And and, you know, I don’t own that person. I’ve got to win that person’s mind and heart. And, you know, if the person sitting. In my office on the computer from 9:00 to 5:00, I’ve got no, no idea what he’s up to really. I don’t want I don’t want to know, even if I try to go and look or whatever. Yeah, you know, I’ve got to win his mind and heart. But and and Kobe’s been interesting in that respect because now most of our teams, they come in one day a week and even now, now they’re not coming in at all. So everyone’s working from home. True. And it’s interesting. The word respect is absolutely right.

[01:08:41] And I see you on social media Payman. And you know, you’re a lovely guy. You are very humble. You are very sort of matter of fact about your business. You’ve done so well. You know, you’ve done amazing. I mean, I look at you and I just think, you know, you are such a great role model for a lot of people. And you’ve done honestly and you have done so well. You came out of dentistry, you started this business and you were there everywhere, and you’ve got time for everyone when I saw you back. You know you were so down to earth, humble talking to everybody. This is a great gift. This is like, this is a gift. And this is like, you know, you’re a true gentleman and you should never change, never change. Because this is a gift that not many people have, you know? And and also you are humble about it. And I think you you role model a lot of younger generation in the fact that you don’t want to be aggressive, you know, you don’t have to be arrogant about stuff.

[01:09:42] You know, you enjoy that, too. I think I think it’s a privilege. You know, Nicola, watching these guys, I mean, you must feel so proud when you see Kish. Yeah. Hmm. What was he like? What was Kish and Jin? I mean, did you know Jin back then as well?

[01:09:56] Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[01:09:57] What was it like back then? Were they the same as they are now?

[01:10:00] Oh my God, they are hilarious. Party animals want to party all the time. I mean, they were not serious. At one point, Kish hated dentistry.

[01:10:11] So for the audience, for the audience kitchen jin from the Smile Dental, Smile Academy and all that. So now what is it? Nine practises or something?

[01:10:20] Yeah, so they are no more in their portfolio. Yeah, I think it’s about 12 or 15 or yeah, they’re doing, Wang says.

[01:10:29] The academy, they’re doing so much, they’re doing something. But yeah, they cited you as a major mentor, major influence.

[01:10:36] They’re always so kind. Honestly, Jin and Keshav are always so kind. I always tell them, I said that you guys never forget me and you always, like, have me there on a pedestal. And I said, I don’t know what good I’ve done to deserve this because they’re always talking such lovely things about me, and I’m very blessed to have them in my life. But with Jin and Kish, they were, you know, they qualified, you know, they failed and they had to retake. Then they fell into my batch of training of a so blessed. And when Kish first came to see me, a poor boy, he wanted to serve, he came to see me just to say Hello, how are you before he? He started with me and I said, Stay, I’ve got a really interesting case, so watch the case. We finished at nine p.m. Yeah. And his mom kept calling him, Where are you? Kish Dinner’s cold. Whatever, mom, I can’t talk to you now. And he was really trying to impress me. Anyway, he did his training with me and everything. After a year or so, he stayed on in the practise and then he goes, Doctor God, I really don’t like dentistry. I’m thinking of going into properties, and I just find it very boring. I said, No, you can’t do that, whatever.

[01:11:42] Anyway, I said, No, no, no, no, you’ve got to learn more. Please don’t do that. Hang on for another year. And then him and Jin for some odd reason decided to do a master’s degree. So they enrolled for PG third course. And then because they were there together, I think they enticed each other to do more and more. So he did his PG cert and he did his diploma, and then he goes, That’s it. I don’t want to do any more. I’m fed up with this is enough. I said, Look, you’ve come this far, just do the Masters. It’s only another year, a dissertation. Just do it. I’ll help you. And he goes, Oh no, I don’t feel like I want to do it. I said, Just do it. So he then went on to do that as well. And then after that, the rest is your story. The story you see, you know, they got stronger. That Masters built Kish. What it he is now. He became much more confident they became to like dentistry because he was doing more courses, so he was learning more. You know, so what I’m trying to say is that for me, my mentality is never give up on people. When people come to me and they say they hate dentistry, they can’t do this, they can’t do that.

[01:12:48] I said, Look, just do it, I’ll be here for you. I’ll help you. And if they believe that I can help them and support them, they actually do it. And they they do really well. Not because I’m there. I hardly did anything for Kishwer Jain, but I think that support means a lot and and I’m just so proud of them. So, so Prav. They’ve done so well. And, you know, I teach on the smile now I. Used to therapists for teeth whitening icon and some cosmetic work, and I see how these Kishan Gin works so hard to run these courses that they’re all the time, that they’re all the time, that every weekend, sometimes three days in a row and then they’re off to Manchester, then they’re off to hear they’re they’ve done really well and actually was my angelic wife, was my associate for a while. So she’s a lovely, lovely girl as well. So they’re they’re family now. Payman, you know, I don’t look at them as my most of my trainees are like my family. They know everything about me. You know, they know everything about me. They I ask them for help. I help them, they help me. And you know, I’ve built up a really good network of really like minded people around me. I feel really blessed.

[01:13:56] Leaders. I mean, I find it difficult to ask this question now because, you know, you’re such a positive person, but I kind of want to talk about darker days. Yeah, and I know your time is limited. So there’s a couple of questions that I want to finish up. Go ahead. Let’s talk about your most difficult patient, your most difficult situation. The situation where you feel like you could have played it better so that we can all learn from it.

[01:14:20] So it was just only recently, actually. You know, I’ve had a lot of difficult patients, a lot of difficult patients. And so everybody has, I’m sure in your career when you were doing dentistry, you came across people, but somehow or other with good communication, with empathising, I managed to solve scenarios and it didn’t sort of extend or get worse. But lately I find patients are a bit more tricky. As I said with COVID and things, I find them a bit more trickier. But I had a case just before Christmas last year. A patient came to see me and he wanted me to fix the fixed retainer for him on his tooth. And when I had to look in his mouth, the fixed retainer wasn’t actually working well. It was actually pushing his teeth. And I said to him that I’m not happy to push to fix this fixed retainer for you because I believe that your your ortho has relapsed and I believe that the orthodontist has to have a look at this. And if I stick your retainer back on, it’s actually making things worse. And I said, Let me take a picture of of it to show you so you know, those big mirrors. I said, I’m going to take a picture with this. I’ll put it in his mouth. Take a picture. That’s when he flew off the handle. He started being a bit abusive and not not coherent. He wasn’t listening to what I was saying, and he was, you know, want to arrogant a bit of arrogance. He wanted me to stick the the thing on, and I said, Look, I think breakdown of communication is better if you leave the practise.

[01:15:51] It was about 7:30 at night was just before Christmas last year, and I said it’s better if you leave the practise. He goes, Well, I’ve got a lot of Dental friends who won’t agree with you, and they would have not taken a photo. I’ve never heard anyone take photos of people’s teeth. And I said, OK, fair enough. I said, Whatever you wish, it goes, I’m going to complain about you. I said, Look, if you feel that way, then that’s fine. I can’t stop you, but I’m not going to stick this on because it’s not in your best interest and I prefer if you see your orthodontist. He laughed. Of course, I think the same night he complained to GDC. And unfortunately, a couple of months later, I got the GDC letter, the dreaded GDC letter. The first time ever in my whole 30 years of career and I felt bad. I felt horrible. I felt like I’m a really awful dentist. I felt like, Oh my god, I’m training all these graduates, all these youngsters, they’re looking up to me every day. I’m getting five or six messages on my Instagram about the book. The book had just recently been published. I felt like a failure. It really affected me. Payman to the point like, I must stop dentistry. I’m probably really bad. The complaint was that Nicola Gall put the mirror in my mouth. She took a picture. Nobody takes pictures of people’s teeth. And the other complaint was that I didn’t stick the retainer on. So anyway, I had everything I gave it all to.

[01:17:18] Dental protection Dental protection passed over to GDC. I was distraught for six weeks, got the letter back saying that it’s just been destroyed because such a case just just has been thrown out. It’s not. It’s not a case, but I learnt a lot of lessons from it. You know, one lesson was that maybe I should listen to people better to patients more, you know, maybe my receptionist should actually take in better, like understanding of the situation so we can explain more on the phone that come on. You know, maybe the dentist may not be able to do the work, so don’t make promises where we can’t achieve. And the third one was that, you know, show the patients what you’re going to do because sometimes for us, it’s easy. Like, I’m just going to take a picture, bring the camera out and take a picture. But people are not aware of these things, you know, so maybe show them, are you? Happy for me to take a picture, even though I did say it, but maybe, maybe he didn’t understood standards, so I took it as a positive thing, even though it affected my life for good six to eight weeks to the point that I just like, really wanted to cut down clinical dentistry. But I think it really it really helped me and I tell the story to everyone, you know, let’s learn lessons. Let’s learn from any complaint we get. We must learn a lesson. Otherwise it’s pointless. All that worrying so that that was the main thing that in my whole career, I have to say,

[01:18:46] Would you really say that’s your low point of your career?

[01:18:49] That was one of the low points. The other low points of my career was when I had to. I was forced to sell Harry wheeled. That was that was and I was forced by my bank to sell it because it was during the recession. And a Bank of Ireland who I had my loan with was going downhill as they were approaching all their clients to give their money back because they were trying to keep their head above water and they wanted the clients to pay the money back. And I had a loan of about maybe 200000 with them still. And I just could not overnight give that money to them and they want. They gave me a week and they had threatening letters from solicitors and it was a mess. It was a mess and I tried to raise money here and there was raising fifty grand here, 50 grand, but nobody had £200000 to give me for, you know, within a week. Maybe if they had waited for six months, I could have done that. So you got to the point where I had to approach people to buy the practise from me and whoever could manage to buy the practise in a short space of time to raise the money. And because my practise was so everything was so up to date in terms of due diligence, I actually saw the practise within two months.

[01:20:05] Must have been heartbreaking.

[01:20:06] It was. I cried every day. I cried every every day because you heard all the challenges I had. Yeah, atop the business. And it was even now when I talk about it, it has been a really it was a very low point for me in my life and for Mahmoud as well, because by then he was a therapist. He was working, you know, and to give up everything we had worked so hard for and all the sacrifices we had made. And you know, it was very difficult. I mean, unfortunately, along the way, we broke a few bonds with people because of this, you know, maybe the staff, maybe they said nobody could understand. Now I can talk about it more openly. But at the time, people couldn’t understand the pressure I was under. It was a lot of pressure, and I think that was another low point in my career.

[01:20:57] What was the gap? What was the gap between selling the Harrow practise and opening the Potteries? The price?

[01:21:02] There was no gap because already TouchWiz was running. I just thought it was two months old. Oh, three months old then? Yeah, but we had zero patients. We had no patients in there. It was running. It was we had set up the city

[01:21:15] With a different bank. Top three.

[01:21:17] Yes, with Lloyds,

[01:21:19] Luckily,

[01:21:19] Yeah. But the thing is because that one was just on a rent basis. So you were just paying rent. I didn’t need a loan either. I had money to set it up, so it wasn’t like or I had to borrow my I didn’t borrow from a bank for two or three. Oh, did you? No, I haven’t borrowed from a bank. I set that up because I was so much. Later in my career, I had some money to set up to trade and pay money. We were able to manage the monthly rents and the bills, but and also to buy the initial equipment and material. We have money for that, but I didn’t have £200000 to pay a Bank of Ireland. Otherwise, I would have kept both practises. But maybe things happen for a reason. Payman, you know, it gave me more family time when I sold Taraweeh, it gave me. We took a two month sabbatical break. We went to Ibiza. We did loads of wedding. You know, international weddings of friends was happening. Spend money on myself, you know, it happened for a reason. And now when I look back, you know, everything in our life, Payman happens for a reason.

[01:22:25] How many kids have you go to?

[01:22:27] Two young girls, Jasmine, who’s 20, and a young ladies now. And Lily, she just turned 18 and we went to New York for her birthday. Just came back from New York.

[01:22:39] Did you not encourage either of them to do dentistry? No.

[01:22:44] You know, I did. I did encourage them. Initially was my dream. Do dentistry. I love you to do dentistry. But dentistry has become a very hard career now. I feel it’s not a nine to five job anymore. It’s not as flexible as people think it is. You take it home, you worry about it, you know, and the business side is hard as well. I would have loved them to be dentists because they have up and running dental practise. They have me. I could have helped them with their career, have network, you know, in dental schools, they would have known them because of dentistry. In a nutshell, it would have been so much easier for them dentistry. But they don’t like it. They don’t like dentistry. Why should I push them? Maybe as a second degree, they might do it. But when Jasmine said she’d rather do pharmacy and then eventually go into facial aesthetics because you can, as a pharmacist, I said, why not? And she can be a prescriber and she can do very well and choose her hours and not work so hard like I do. And Lily, she doesn’t like dentistry or medicine or anything like that, and she just doesn’t know yet what she was. Maybe a bit of psychology, maybe low. So I’m just going to let them do what they want as their initial degrees. If the second degree they say, Oh, actually, you know what? Mom really liked dentistry, then let them do it because then they won’t blame me. If things go

[01:24:07] Wrong, that’s the right approach,

[01:24:09] Isn’t it? Yeah.

[01:24:11] How about the book dentist, in a nutshell? How did it come about? And Dr Raby, a man who we’re having on this show soon as well, your co-host. How did you meet her and how did this all happen?

[01:24:22] So it all boils back down to me being a trainer when I was a trainer, I was every year teaching this. So I’ve been a trainer since 2003. Yeah, until now. Never had a gap in between. Thank God, and hopefully I won’t. I want to carry on being a trainer till I can. So I was teaching everything with tips. And, you know, every time I went on a course, the tips would be adding up. And you know, everything I teach them is like a cocktail of everything I’ve learnt throughout my career from oral surgery, cosmetic, my M.S., my my experience in dentistry. So when it got to one of my trainees called Kavita, I said to Kavita, Look, Kavita, this is like going back to 2019. I said, I think it’s better. If I rewrite things down and make it into flowcharts, it’s easier to learn. And she goes, Sure, how would you like me to do that? I said, So let’s start with bridge prep. Can you put that into a flowchart and write it down? Like from from the moment that we’ve treatment plant to putting study models, topical L.A. consent forms, you know everything. Let’s do it in a flowchart, she goes, OK, I’ll try. So she did it on words, and she showed it to me and I said, Brilliant, let’s do the next one on Crown. Let’s do the next one on either an immediate dentine ceiling. So we started doing flowcharts and I got a pool of paperwork together. Then I was looking at it. One day I said, Oh my God, I should make it into a logbook. So for my next trainee, it’s easier to teach. So I started putting it into a logbook and then and then I looked at it. I thought this would make a good

[01:26:00] Book,

[01:26:02] And then I looked on and I was like looking and searching. Like, what else to write? So I said, OK, we’re going to have different chapters restorative this that and the workload was getting too much. I thought, You know what? Let me let me find someone who’s so passionate about dentistry like I am. Then I started thinking of all my trainees. I know everybody was busy and busy with small academy. Kavita was helping me anyway with this stuff. The other trainees that were doing, they had implants or so. Most of my trainees have done a master’s degrees now, and they’re very busy in their own practises. So I looked on Instagram. I came across Rabiya, which I was following at the time, and she was like talking all about her cases in surgery. Similar to what I was doing. I thought, she’s really a mini me. I really like her. So I messaged her on Instagram. I said, Rabia, I have a small project I’m working on. I really want your help. And she goes, Well, what is it you want me to do? I said, Just come over because I don’t even know what I want you to do. Just come over, say she. She said, Where are you at her? She goes, Oh, I live in Harrow. I’ll come. So she came to her, revealed she had to look at this because, oh my god, yeah, let’s do it so fun. You know, whatever I said, I don’t know if it’s going to be a book or what. It’s a project. Let’s just work on it. So we started working on it together and eventually it hit.

[01:27:23] Eventually, she fell pregnant. She was very sick. She couldn’t do any more work, and then she then turned around, she bought a dental practise, then it became COVID and then everything just fell apart. So we wrote some of it, some chapters randomised. We made it into chapters, but it wasn’t nothing major. Then during COVID, we did a bit more together, which we had time. We organised all the chapters and stuff. And then it hit Christmas time, Christmas time. By then, Pouillon, my current trainee, had started to work with me. I said to puja, You’re so good at, you know, tech stuff, which I’m so bad at. Can you help me like, tidy these flowcharts up and put photos for stuff? And he goes, Yeah, of course. Tell me what to do. So he started helping me. And then by then I had also established Peter British-Iranian Dental Association and I had a committee. One of the people on my committee, who was my secretary, the secretary, his name is Millard Miller. And he is a year Dental graduate from Glasgow. You met him in VCD. Yeah. And he you did meet him. And he said, I said to him that, you know, he said, I can’t help you as well on this. It’s such a good project because I wanted him to proofread it because it’s in Dental school and I thought it’s going to help, you know, because he’s quite up to date. So I said, can you help proofreading it? So it started proofreading it, and he goes, The doctor goes, There’s lots more we can add to the book.

[01:28:50] I’m happy to help you. So then I said, OK, why not? Then again, it hit COVID time with lockdown, and in my family, everyone got COVID. Last Christmas really badly, especially Mahmoud porting his oxygen levels dropped to seventy eight. He was awful. I mean, we didn’t take him to hospital. I nursed him myself to recovery with oxygen and everything else. And anyway, so we were on Zoom, day in, day out, day in, day out, over Christmas, over January and we it up a lot worked on it. Pouyanne Miller were really, really good at, you know, helping me organising it, giving a bit more oomph. And polio was amazing at finding publishers and editing and publishing the book. And both boys helped me with with helped us with the marketing side and Instagram videos and putting the stuff together and like, we had plans of how we’re going to move this forward and eventually release it. So really, this book is a product of teamwork, is a product of unity, is a product of trust. It’s not just it was my project for four. I would say six months. I shared it with Robbie. Robbie helped me a lot on it. And then eventually we brought Pouillon Miller in, who actually finished it and helped helped us finish it and get it to where where it is now. So I would never say it’s just my book. This is our book. It’s a team team effort, and we had a group of specialists who actually peer reviewed it as well, and everyone’s been acknowledged. So again, another blend of luck.

[01:30:28] And now I love your your your stories tend to always go around. You inspired someone to do something. It’s a beautiful thing.

[01:30:36] Yeah, it’s a beautiful dude. Thank you, Payman. Thank you.

[01:30:40] We’re going to end it. We end it in the in the same way every time. And it’s weird because we’ve spoken for over an hour and a half and we still haven’t even talked about your current practise. But you told me everything you needed to tell me that the nurse is looking forward to coming to work, and that’s the best sign you can ever have. Exactly. So we’ve got two final questions. Prav final question in mind. First, obviously, perhaps final question. You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest all around you. What a three bits of advice you’d leave them, o

[01:31:18] Prav, what a difficult question. No one always have time for people, especially people you care for. Not family, first family, always first parents, first siblings, first, then your nearest and dearest friends, but then sometimes nearest and dearest friends become family, don’t they? Payman they become like family. So always have time. Always have empathy. Try and be. If I was on death bed and my children were there, I’d say Be organised, be organised. I want to leave that legacy behind because organisation is what helped me, you know, being organised. I have books. I have diaries. I have, you know, if I show you, I have every year I have a book. Yeah, and I write everything in here for my trips. I plan ahead, you know, and I’ve learnt this. It’s not. I haven’t been born with it. I’ve watched people who do it and it’s helped me. The other thing is always the people who help you give them the credit for it. Ok. Don’t take the pie and eat it yourself, OK? Because Payman Langroudi didn’t become Payman Langroudi on his own. Nick Lugo didn’t become Nicole to go on her own. You know, we all have a story. We all have a journey. And when you actually say that that you appreciate and you give credit to people who help you, you actually get respected more and you get to higher places and you will achieve your dreams. Why? Because people then want to come and help you because they know Nicola go Payman Langroudi will credit them for their hard work. Not going to choose them and throw them away. And I think, and I hope that people who have been in my life, they feel that I am like that and I don’t, you know, use them or abuse them. And I am giving them credit for all the hard work they do for me. And I appreciate it.

[01:33:24] That’s lovely. And my final question? Fantasy dinner party, oh, three guests. That’s our life. And would you pick?

[01:33:40] Oh, God. Dinner party, fantasy, dinner party. Oh my God, your questions are so deep, guys. Um? I will pick. Ok. Does it have to be family or it can be friends, it can be anyone, know anyone.

[01:33:57] It can be. Jesus, Einstein and your dad.

[01:34:00] Ok, I would like to pick King Pahlavi on our king, which we lost. So if you’re on Shah of Iran, I want to see what was going through his head. And I want to. I want to. I want to spend time with him. Yeah, yeah. I spent I love my dad, I miss him, I spent a lot of time with him and I know everything about him, everything, everything, so I will pick the people who I want to know more from. I like Obama. Obama and his wife make a lot of sense, and I’ve read their books and they make a lot of sense. So Obama, his wife and the Shah of Iran.

[01:34:43] Nice. Nice. Have you have you listened to the Obama and Bruce Springsteen podcasts?

[01:34:49] No, not yet, but I want to.

[01:34:51] It’s lovely, really. One of my favourite podcasts I’ve ever seen.

[01:34:54] It’s on Spotify.

[01:34:55] It’s only on Spotify. Only on Spotify. It’s called Born in the USA. Boy, oh wow.

[01:35:00] I listen to it.

[01:35:01] Definitely something like that. It’s called something else. It’s called something else. It’s called mavericks. Born in the USA. Some of the Mavericks born.

[01:35:08] Okay, that makes sense.

[01:35:10] So it’s been absolutely lovely to have you. It really has.

[01:35:13] It’s been my pleasure to be here with you

[01:35:15] For people who want to connect. Your book is available. Where? How can I? How can I buy the book?

[01:35:20] The book is available on Amazon on if you just Google, Amazon Dentistry in a nutshell on Amazon or search it on in the search box, you’ll find it. Also, it’s the link is on my Instagram at Dental Cosmetics, which is called double at the end, it’s on my private Instagram as well. The link and also you can also message me.

[01:35:45] So someone’s message? Your Instagram is the best place.

[01:35:47] Instagram is really good at Dental Cosmetics.

[01:35:50] Amazing.

[01:35:51] Yeah, definitely.

[01:35:53] So, so nice to have you, Nicola. What lovely, lovely stories are really, really, really inspired me.

[01:35:58] The have you’re the inspiration Payman. You’re the inspiration. Me and mom would always talk about you and actually dinner party. I want you to come as well.

[01:36:11] I’ll come instead of Mrs. Obama. Michelle.

[01:36:13] Yeah, you call yourself Michelle. Lovely to have you. Lovely to have you as well. Thank you for asking me. Payman This is Dental Leaders

[01:36:25] The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] You know, the funny thing is, I still get nervous when I go to the dentist, which is silly because obviously that’s to do with the childhood fear coming back up. But but yes, that’s kind of why I did it to overcome it and make sure that my my patients coming in, they come in terrified that they leave completely opposite, you know, having having had a blast head laugh even during their fillings, I talk non-stop. Sometimes they’re laughing and they’re like, Don’t do that while we’re having a feeling.

[00:00:24] So this is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:00:47] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Dr Rob Jarmon onto the podcast. I’ve come across on Instagram, mainly the real content creator. Also new mum, new practise owner and now co-author of a book Dentistry in a Nutshell, which we just had Nicola on the show. Nicola Gaur, the other co-author. Lovely to have you, Rabiya Payman.

[00:01:12] Thank you so much for inviting me. I’m excited to be on your show.

[00:01:16] It’s been difficult to find a time. You’ve got so much going on.

[00:01:22] I’m so sorry. I get this all the time. Honestly, babies are unpredictable. I talk about her all the time. She’s just made my whole life a rollercoaster.

[00:01:31] A one year old.

[00:01:33] Yes. To be one in a few days.

[00:01:36] So, so we talk about women in dentistry. And is it the right profession for a woman? Is it a good profession for a woman? As far as flexibility, kids, all of that. Now that you’re the busiest, you’re peaking. This is the most difficult it’ll ever be because young baby young practise. Can you corroborate? Was it a good idea to be a dentist from that perspective?

[00:01:57] Absolutely. Actually, it does give me the flexibility I’ve started easing myself back into work for when she was seven months and I could do half days with ease. It’s no, you know, I didn’t have to worry that I had to be in a position of nine to five or working five days, like some of my relatives who have to do that. Whereas with dentistry, I can work a day, two days, which I’m currently doing now. And you know, you can earn comfortably. You can work flexibly in the beginning when your baby needs you to. Like I was doing, I think it was definitely a great choice in terms of working life balance and, you know, being being a woman and wanting a family. I definitely find this is the profession that really allows you to do that. So, yeah, I’m very lucky that I picked a profession that I love and allows that balance that I always wanted.

[00:02:44] And is it? Do you have a partner in the practise or is it just, you

[00:02:48] Know, it’s myself, my husband and my brother. So my brother is a dentist, but my husband’s a chiropractor, although we do it together.

[00:02:56] So that’s good. So the fact that you were only there for two days a week, there is somewhat another owner there the rest of the time.

[00:03:01] Exactly. That’s kind of why we did it, because my brother actually has health issues as well. So he’s got Crohn’s disease. And sometimes because of that, just like as soon as I came off maternity leave, actually, it’s kind of like a tag team situation. He went for surgery. It’s one of those conditions. I don’t know if you know much about it, but you end up having lots of surgery throughout your life. So he’s been on sick leave for a few months, and he’s only coming back in a few days. So it was kind of comfortable for him and reassuring for him to know that actually he can take that leave because he’s the owner, but also his sister’s going to be there in the business, taking care of it. In the same way, when I was maternity leave, I knew my husband and my brother were taking care of it. So the question people ask me all the time, you know, do you feel like being a practise owner? You needed that. And I said, yes, I definitely would have bought a practise if I didn’t have my brother or my husband or someone to do it with. I really recommend you do it with somebody you trust.

[00:03:50] Yeah. And I think, you know, business in general can be very lonely unless you’ve got someone else. It’s it’s one of those I speak to, you know, a Prav, my co-host who’s not unfortunately, not with us today. He’s partnered in several businesses and then he’s got one on his own. And he says that the one on his own, when the chips are down, he really is on his own. There’s there’s no one else to talk to. But let’s take take me back. Let’s go to your origin story. You know, where did you grow up? Why did you become a dentist? When did that first come onto your agenda? What kind of kid were you? All of

[00:04:21] That? Mm-hmm. So I grew up in Harrow. I’m one of three middle child. Me, my brother became dentist. My sister’s an optician. I think I was the age of 12, kind of. When I decided to become a dentist, I had a great phobia. Up until then, I had to have some teeth removed when I was younger. So I just remember the horror of that feeling of having my teeth removed and the dentist being really scary, not knowing what was happening. And I just got to the age of 12, and I just remember thinking, I don’t want to be so scared of something, you know? And why can’t they be nice? Then it’s non scary dentists. And I was in my appointment with my dentist, and he was about to give me a lei for a filling. And I said to him, You know, I’m going to be a dentist, I’m not going to be a scary one. And he just started laughing at me. He just he just laughed because you think I’m scary, it’s absolutely terrifying. And I don’t know from then. I just kind of, you know, I have a couple of relatives as well that are dentists that it kind of help to see their lifestyle at the same time. And but I was 12 when I decided mainly routed by the fear of dentists and wanting to do the opposite. So, yeah, age of 12.

[00:05:21] But wasn’t that you kind of overcome your fear a little bit?

[00:05:26] Do you know the funny thing is, I still get nervous when I go to the dentist? Oh, you were just silly because obviously that’s to do with the childhood fear coming back up. But but yes, that’s kind of why I did it. Overcome it and make sure that my my patients come in and they come in terrified that they leave completely opposite, you know, having having had a blast head laugh even during their fillings, I talk non-stop. Sometimes they’re laughing and they’re like, don’t do that while we’re having a feeling.

[00:05:50] So I used to have a boss. He used to say, Oh, you young people like me. Obviously, I’m not young anymore, but you young. And the problem with you guys that you’ve never had much dentistry done yourself, so you’re not in touch with what it’s like to be a patient. And it resonated with me because a couple of times where I did need something, my wife’s a dentist. She’s into, you know, the nervous patient and all of that. Yes, and she gave me this ID block, which I did not feel at all. And and I’m a dentist, but I was I was. I kind of know what she was up to, right? Yeah, that started going numb. And at the moment, it started going numb. I started thinking, God, all those times I pushed that plunger in too hard. You know, I must have given thousands of I.D. blocks at that point and that the amount of, you know, damage I did to not not damage clinical damage, but damage to to the relationship by not just taking a little bit longer because she took a ridiculously long time to push that, but to take a long time myself. Yeah, yeah. But it it goes to show that some of those, you know, softer side, softer skills are even more important. All right. So so you decided then where did you go? Where did you study?

[00:07:06] I study at bots. So the one thousand nine bots on the London Yeah. Merits? What were you like what we liked as a student? Yeah, I’ve always been a studious student. I loved studying really sad. I know the opposite of many. A lot of people talk about the educational struggles, and they probably hate when I speak about the opposite and always feel a bit embarrassed, like, should I share it? But I just enjoyed school. I enjoyed studying. I enjoyed revising the way I used to work with. We had a building called the Gared Building. I had loads of educational rooms in there and I used to go in, go myself. I didn’t like the library because everyone used to come and chat to me and I’d get distracted. And when I’m there, I like to focus, so I’d get the whiteboard up and just draw and write and teach an imaginary class. And one or two people would come in to some of the guys from my year and they’d just sit there and they’re like, Can we listen? I’m like, Yes, listen. And then I would just teach it.

[00:07:56] I was teaching myself anyway, and they would learn. And then it was really nice to actually have someone listening. So I don’t have to have imaginary students, and that’s just my learning skill to teach and draw and write and make posters and then stick them around my house. And when I’d do brushing my teeth, I’d see something. Oh yes, remember that in my bedroom, on the wall something. Oh yeah. And somehow I’d remembered things just because I was walking past the posters every day. But yeah, that was my learning style. Even in school, even in school, actually in school, I actually used to have a photographic memory. I was lucky, so I could just be like Page 39, because to have these like what they called Fiji books or see, I don’t remember what the names of them there was like these colourful books like Biology, Chemistry and you just I used to remember, like, I’ll Page Forty Nine would have this guy on it. And this this is this. And when I got to uni, that photographic memory went, which is why I changed the teaching style.

[00:08:47] What helped when to help with the old vagus nerve or whatever?

[00:08:51] I guess they did. That’s where I draw the pictures you see and then have this funny new monarchs to try and remember it like really, really random ones.

[00:08:59] But have you had, you know, this theory? Are you the oldest or what are you a middle child? Well, the theory, you know, the idea of, OK, you’re saying you had a photographic memory kind of different, but the idea that the first kid comes along and says something funny and the parents say, Well, you’re the funny one, and then that that positive reinforcement music starts to be funny. Second kid comes along. Funny is taken and does says something clever, and the parents say, you’re the clever one. And then and then that sort of propagates itself. And, you know, like, why is it? It’s fascinates me. Like, how did you become that cat? Were you trying to please them? Like, what was it?

[00:09:38] My my sister is was that is the clever one, she’s got like a 98 percent for physics. She is the clever one. My brother’s the genius. He spent most of he spent most of his life being sick. So, you know, he was diagnosed at a young age with Crohn’s and he was really sick. And, you know, in college, they almost said to him, like, No, we have we can’t put him through because he hasn’t attended his whole maths class. And I was like, No, like just my dad was like, You admit him, he will sit the paper and he will get a name, don’t you worry. And he would be sitting sick in bed. And I just remember sitting there. All I did was read him the statistics book, and he came out with an A.. That’s what once I just read from one page, one cover to cover and

[00:10:16] He smashed it, the family failure

[00:10:18] And the family failure. This is the thing I have to say. I have to study and study like at least six weeks before and just study. And then I don’t know if you speak Punjabi or my family is to call me a monster, which means like, you know, in India, Pakistan, how they teach us articles, Apple vehicles policy, crosscut. So my dad would be like all this. She’s just doing her. I’m like, Yeah, I’m going to do that. I’m going to get that video because it’s not coming naturally. You know, even maths. I used to just scrape a pass in maths, biology, chemistry at like flying by. But maths was so hard. In the end, I got an A in A-levels, but it was really hard for me. Even now, everyone makes fun of me. My general knowledge is rubbish. I don’t I don’t listen to the news. I don’t read news articles because it depresses me. If anything is happening in the world like war and people fighting over things, it just makes me really upset and sad. So I just stay away from it, which is why I never know what’s happening unless it’s like something really big, like blows up on social media. I’m like, Oh, that’s what’s happening in the world. So ignorant. I know it’s so bad, but that’s me.

[00:11:19] And how about the when it went, Dennis, you became more practical. Did you take to that very easily as well or not?

[00:11:25] No, I found that quite hard. Such a crowd, perhaps root canals, but I think that was the lack of exposure and Dental school. I really think Dental school in the region. You know, the way they the way they do it. I passed having done eight canals, not eight teeth, eight canals. There was three separate teeth that had filled on a molar, two canals in one molar, three molar here. And they passed me. I came out of dental school, absolutely incompetent. I think the only thing I could probably do was be safe. Have an idea of the procedures, but was I couldn’t as hell. No, I became a good dentist in training.

[00:12:01] I think I agree with you. But the question of what do you want to take out? Yeah, if you want to put more in, like, for instance, I’ve got lots of problems with dental school. There’s no teeth whitening in dental school. Yeah, for no reason. Yeah. I mean, 20 years ago, there was a legal problem, but there’s lots of we did this composite course. Lots of dentists on the course don’t know what a line angle is. Yeah, yeah. And and yet a line angle. Yeah, lots of lots of dentists on the course don’t know the difference to the nanocomposite and a and a micro hybrid composite. These are things you use every single day. And yet we spend hours and hours and hours doing. I don’t know what was it, biochemistry or pipettes and

[00:12:40] Dental materials Dental.

[00:12:42] Now the question is which bit of it isn’t necessary? Because, you know, I’ve often thought some of that biochemistry bit take that out,

[00:12:50] But they should take that crap. Yeah, yeah, ridiculous. Like no actual microbiology of it. When do we ever take a biopsy and have a look underneath?

[00:12:57] But what if you want to be that Dental? What if you want to be that guy?

[00:13:00] You might want to do that one percent. They can go do that. But you know, 99 percent of us are drilling, billing, whitening, doing all those things we should be able to do. Be competent in doing your work now. Might the trainers have so much pressure? Because when I qualified from dental school three years later, I became a joint PhD trainer with my trainer, so I was one of the youngest. And when when I watch these PhDs like this, new dentists come out and join our practise and I was helping them. They would show me their impression, like, is this impression good enough? Like, No, this is this is basics. You should be able to take an impression and be confident in it. You know, it’s what you say.

[00:13:35] You couldn’t find two thousand nine.

[00:13:37] No, I started 2009 qualified 2014.

[00:13:40] So 2014 is still a bit early for scanners and things. Did you? You didn’t have scanners, scanners.

[00:13:46] What I thought we were taught composites in Dental school properly. I think I did like one or two composites. Kids aren’t even taught. Amalgam kings aren’t taught Malcolm, but I’ll bet that I had in 2020 one he couldn’t do an amalgam. I had to show him how to place an amalgam because he came from kings. I was like, How can you not place an amalgam? You have to say, no, you have to go into NHS dentistry for a year. Why wouldn’t they teach you that now?

[00:14:10] That’s a bit mad. Yes, a bit mad. Ok, so then you got out of dental school. What would your next move? Vti.

[00:14:17] Yeah, it was your first boss.

[00:14:19] I’m quite interested in the first boss being an absolutely important person as far as the team

[00:14:24] Was, and he was incredible. Just win the girl from High St Dental practise in Walthamstow.

[00:14:29] He’d been trained Jaswinder Gill from the other one.

[00:14:32] Everyone was mixed them up. I need to tell you just that, you know, so famous as a famous twin. You know, he’s in Walthamstow. He owns like. He’s like a practise tycoon, owns like multiple practises and, you know, he’s more in the business side of dentistry. He’s an oral surgeon, awesome guy. Completely he he completely goes to the opposite of what you’d expect trainers to do was so laid back. So chill, no hand-holding. I remember the first time I had to do a surgical extraction and I was like, Oh man, I did get two of these in uni just to pass the criteria. And he goes to me. I walked into a room. I said, I have to do operate four surgical extraction. I don’t know, can you come watch me? He said. This is, you know what you do. And there’s the patient in his chair who is a patient man. He goes, I’m just going to show him something. Yeah, you’re going to cut here. You’re going to cut here, right? So you can see you’re going to lift it, you’re going to cut the bone. You know what to do. You got to remove some bone enough to move the tooth and you’re going to lift out. No problem. I’ll come back and check on you in an hour. I left the room like walk. This is like two weeks a day after you training and now let you came back and he’s like, Oh, you got the tooth out? No problem. And he left. I was sweating. I was sweating. I was dying in that extraction. But he was right. He just got there. They’d take hours to gel and everything. He’s a cool. He’s a cool dude. He’s a cool dude. He doesn’t believe in something.

[00:15:51] What else do you learn from him apart from all, because he was an oral surgeon? But what else did you learn from him?

[00:15:56] You know, just to be like now I bought practise when I’m really stressed and this this practise stresses me out. I always remember one thing he said to me his dad died and he was still coming to work two days later, and he was busy and was running at practise and the staff were to his room complaining about something. And then he came to my room and I said, Don’t get it, don’t you need some time off? Don’t you get like stressed, overwhelmed that you need some time to yourself? And he goes, Yeah, I’ll be OK, but this is life. You know, it’s not one thing. It’s another thing. You know, you just could keep going, stay strong, and you just kind of said it in such a kind of calm way. And sometimes now in my head, when I’m overwhelmed, I just say to myself, You know, if it’s not this thing, it’s another thing, you know, not everything’s constant. If you’re having a really great time now this is going to pass if you’re having a really crap time right now. This will also pass, you know? So just try to find the joy in their everyday normal, pleasant moments, calm moments. The boring moments just enjoy those because, you know, nothing’s always the same as never, always going to be bad or was going to be good. So it just kind of that just stuck with me for some reason, and I just always kind of revert back to that in my head like just, you know, it’s going to be OK. It’s fine.

[00:17:09] It’s actually, you know, I had a crewmember multi changes. Do you remember that before your time?

[00:17:18] That’s before my time. I did read up on Moose.

[00:17:22] So boys and girls, the way it used to work before your phone had all the music on it was there was the CD players. And if you were really like up there, you had this thing called the CD Multichain, which is five CDs under the seat of your car. Yeah, I’m talking about in the car, in that black thing under the seat of your car, and it was actually revolutionary that you had five different CDs that you could listen to my

[00:17:45] Oh

[00:17:46] My CD multichain. You broke in my Alfa Romeo and I used to have and I could only play one CD and I could. I couldn’t even take it out. It was just I could only ever play one CD and the one CD I could play. Was that an Anthony Robbins one about overwhelm? How to handle overwhelm? And interestingly, there was 24 CDs in that in that collection. That’s the only one I remember. Yeah. And it goes to show how important repetition is here because I must have listened to that a thousand times. But if I’m ever in overwhelm, I know I can just go to that. What the five questions of overwhelmed that he said to ask yourself, and I’ll be out of overwhelm. And it’s very interesting that you’re saying if you’re ever in overwhelm, you think back to Dr. Gill and that moment. And wouldn’t it be great if we, you know, we had a thing to go to every time we were in? I don’t know, anxiety over, well, joy, and I’d really love what you said about, you know, not not realise, not not taking the happiness too far and not taking the sadness too far. Because when you’re doing content creation, which is what you’re doing, one of the biggest parts of that, I think, is when people say, Oh, Rob, you, you’re amazing. You’re amazing, you’re amazing. Don’t take that to heart. And if the rude person says something bad about you, don’t take that to heart, you know? So tell me about the how did you get into content creation? Your pages? Your pages call us Dr. Rob. Yeah, man. Yeah, sorry to have to rob you too difficult to remember, but that’s gone.

[00:19:22] Oh yeah, no, I I’m quite a private person, which people laugh at when they see me on social media now sharing everything like, Yeah, you’re private. But a few years back, my husband started his social media for marketing purposes to increase his patients because he’s a chiropractor. And he said to me, Why don’t you get on there as well? You know, be good. I said, I really need to market. My practise isn’t really need it. I was working just for somebody else at the point it was like, No, it’s good. Like, This is the way it’s going now. People get on social media and do something. And I said to him, But what will I do? Just whatever the dentist is doing is that know, be yourself. And I was like, Well, I don’t really have anything to offer them. These guys aren’t offering look at these guys have got so many more degrees and qualifications and they’re running courses and they’re doing, you know, they’ve got thousands of followers. They’re doing amazing things, you know, I’ve got nothing to offer. And plus, I feel too anxious, you know, people are going to judge me. People might do comments. You might say, Oh, that’s crap, dentistry, why are you even sharing that? And he’s like, Well, you’re not doing it for this. You’re doing it for yourself and your patients and your patients are going to love your work, you know? Yeah.

[00:20:23] And I said, not really. And we thought about it for a little while, and then he was like, You just need to do it. It’s part of growing, especially because this makes you so uncomfortable and you care so much what other people think. You just need to get on there and do it. So I did it. I started off my page. I looked at some other pages. Okay, so this is how everyone does it. A picture of themselves, a little quote and then some teeth. And let me start like that and I started like that. But in my stories, I thought, Let me be myself and I’ll share my day because nobody else seems to be talking about. And it’s just dentistry. And I’m predominantly an NHS dentist. So I started sharing an amalgam, filling the fact that I see 20 30 people a day doing a check-up here, some kids, and then I’ll share some of my composite bonding, some of my whitening talk about, Oh, this is how you do whitening. And I show so all my stories. And funnily enough, not patients. But dentists started messaging me young dentists, dentists from uni being like, Oh wow, it’s so nice to see someone sharing amalgam or a feeling or an extraction, and you’re sharing kind of tips about the different types of anaesthetic. And it’s so nice because when we look on social media, all we see is lime bleach and bond smile makeovers.

[00:21:28] That’s what we thought the industry was like, and you need not teaching us this and we feel really anxious that we can’t like know do dentistry this good and not just young university dentists, but also colleagues. Some people are older than me saying I was so nice. I felt like really incompetent and disheartened when I see all the work thinking I haven’t achieved enough, you know, because I’m not doing this and I’m just an NHS dentist, I’m just a general dentist. I haven’t done any specialisms. I haven’t done anything. All I’m doing is fillings. And so it just kind of started from then. I just started showing more. More followers came and then I thought, How can I help them in a different way? And I thought these people that they look up to? What happens if I just show them that they’re normal people? And a marketing company reached out to me Dental hype and they say, Look, we want to start doing X Y Z project, and we like the way you talk on camera to your stories. Can we work together? You know, and I said, OK, sure. So we started interviewing all the big dentists. You know, Ryan Eskander, Simon chant. You know, all the famous guys, doctors say the aesthetics, all of them, and just getting them to open up on a little show we made called influence about their insecurities, their fears, how they got to the success where they are now and made little videos.

[00:22:39] And, like you said, all the positive messages rolling. And it’s so nice to see that they just normal people and you know that they do get anxious and this is what they’ve done to get where they are and you know, how to grow and how to improve themselves and their successful tips. And then from there we went on to I just kind of when I left the video side of things, I thought, Let me go on to now the educational side of things, because people like the tips that I share about Scotch bond and they’re like, Oh, let’s talk about Scotch bond, or they don’t talk about this kind of material and different composites and, like you said, line angles. I remember once talking about that, my story and someone said, Oh, I didn’t know about this, and because they didn’t know these tips that I picked up from courses and stuff, they kind of were reaching out to me even more. And I just started reaching out to these dentists that produce amazing work and said, Do you mind doing this with me on Instagram? And they were like, Sure, and I was learning and I was teaching at the same time, and I love it. My two favourite things learning and teaching. So that’s kind

[00:23:33] Of where I’ve seen, I’ve seen. So I definitely saw the influence series and that was in person. You could go into their practises. I wasn’t taking quite a long time, right? The organisation and all that.

[00:23:45] So I took it when they’re free and when we’re free.

[00:23:47] Yeah, yeah. And then the other thing was, you call it toe topics or something.

[00:23:51] That was my new thing. I did myself.

[00:23:52] Yeah, yeah. So do you get nervous? Sometimes if you if you’re going to talk to someone who’s an owner, it’s funny because you pick like you said, you pick some of those subjects that aren’t necessarily the sexiest subjects canal. Yeah. If you’re going to go talk to an expert on dentures, do you sometimes get nervous that you’re not up with the latest or up with the latest questions to ask? Or are you or are you up with all of that? Or do you do homework before?

[00:24:18] That’s the thing. No, I didn’t even do homework because I thought, if I’m going to, you’re just going to my dad.

[00:24:23] Just be yourself and ask your curiosity.

[00:24:26] I don’t know exactly what my dad is an engineer, and he went into teaching and he said to me, Do you know what? Because when we were younger and when he would teach us something, he’d be like, OK, that’s it. Now you should know how to do it. Oh, I, dad, this makes sense to you. But remember, I’m done. This does not make sense to me or we explain it, and he’d get frustrated teaching us. And then when he became a teacher, he noticed that everyone has different abilities. It doesn’t just make sense to everyone the same way because my dad is like, he’s a physics maths genius, and because it made sense to him, he didn’t understand how to teach it. Then over time, you start breaking it down and realise that actually someone needs to learn a different way. So I thought if I pre learn, then I’m going to only touch a topic on the surface. But if I don’t know anything, I will ask questions how the viewer would like to know, like when I come in and say, OK, I’ve studied already about copy Dental. Is this how you do it? But if I say, how do you actually do this? How do you actually take that putty and make a copy of a denture? Oh, you cut a wedge in it and line it up. And then my videos were showing me learning, and then they were learning as I was learning, because otherwise you end up skipping up these tiny details that people don’t otherwise pick up or understand how to piece together. So I just felt, let’s just go in like me. I don’t need to know everything to teach.

[00:25:40] They’re really good. And you’ve got there’s a wacky side to the way that you come across. It’s almost like a crazy, crazy professor, kind of. I know that’s not the right word. That’s not the right, but I like it. But there is something your performance seems so natural like. And you know, I was thinking when I first time I saw you, I thought, This is it. This is amazing. This is this is you. And, you know, jazz gulati. You know the idea?

[00:26:06] Yeah, he’s cool, guy. Yeah.

[00:26:08] Well, you and Josh Gulati, for me, are just such a brilliant sort of not the normal way people have to learn that people don’t have to go to university and get a degree. Yeah. People can learn in lots of different ways. And when I saw your content, when I saw it, I thought, this is really, really valuable. It actually made me think of something. You know, we do this composite course with Depeche Palmer.

[00:26:28] Hmm, look, cool guy ahead of him.

[00:26:30] He’s very, very, very strong, but he doesn’t like social media. Yeah. And I was thinking, this girl, Rob, who I’d never met you before here is actually impacting more lives than Dipesh, who’s a composite genius. But the lives that he’s impacting are the ones in the room, you know, the the 30 delegates that turn up

[00:26:51] And can afford to. Yeah.

[00:26:54] And if you look at Jay-Z, I don’t know if you watch Jay-Z’s of Dental podcast yet.

[00:27:00] I need to. I’ve seen a couple of people mention it.

[00:27:02] I loved it so much. I sponsored it. And it would be like, you know, you’d think, Oh, there might be some sort of competition between this podcast and not at all. I loved it. I adored it. And what I particularly love about it is that, you know, learning in a different way. Learning because you want to learn. You know, that’s the beautiful thing about it. If I’m on your page looking at your content, it’s because I want to be there. And if you’re saying something in a way that connects to me. Amazing. Amazing that, you know, we talk about all the terrible things about social media, but this just amazing new stuff. You know, I take my hat off to you. I really do. Thank you so much. So, OK, let’s go back to your career. You did that job with Dr. Gill.

[00:27:45] What that? So I stayed there for quite a few years because, you know, although it was a Nash bash job in Walthamstow, everybody is exempt. Everybody needs dentures, everybody needs crowd. And they literally do. I kind of actually was actually after my VTA, I applied for an oral surgery position because as you do when you come out, they tell you you must do PhD, you must do it. It’s like a robotic system. Nobody tells you what you should be doing. They just tell you this is what you should do. So I thought, OK, I’ll just do that. I applied. I got into Norfolk Park, which is like around the corner from my house, and I thought, I’m going to do this. And apparently I still don’t know to this day how this happened. Divine intervention I did press accept on the offer. So then my my fat gene comes to me, son. I’m over haredi at the time and she goes to me, Rabbi, you, I haven’t got your references into four Norfolk, Parker said. Do you mean she’s I got everyone else’s? Yours hasn’t come through and I’ve logged to the portal. She’s like, You did. Except I said, Yeah, I was the first one was I remember I was at Manchester BBC and I pressed Accept and I told everyone else to accept. And the open Dental says, you declined and you declined your offer because you didn’t accept blah blah. Oh my god, I cried for twenty four hours, Payman because that interview was flipping hard and I did really well because I studied like, you know, my zombie self. I did, and I got the place I wanted. And then she called up.

[00:29:00] She’s like, Oh, there’s me crying on the side, I believe on my training days to crying in the corner and she called, and they’re like, nothing we can do really giving it to somebody else. And she was just like, Robbie’s can apply next year. I was like, No, I don’t want to fly next year. I’m going to go back into general dentistry. This is bullshit. And I went back to my doctor and I was like, Oh, can I work for you? And he’s like, I’ve only got I can only offer you two days because I thought you were going to go direct. And I was like, Oh man. So I did two days for him, and then I found another job up in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, which was less NHS. So I thought, OK, I need to be diverse. If I spread my days out, I’ll keep it exciting. So two days nash bashing and two days something a bit nice where I can upskill, you know? And I did, and I worked maybe three years like that, spread across two practises, and I stayed on in Walthamstow because I had the opportunity of becoming a trainer. And I thought this will be nice to get to teach. You know, I was already teaching them new ones that came out because they would come to me because they were scared of Dr. Gill. As cool article is, he’s got a very scary persona. It’s quite big, big guy. And very much like, yeah, this is this is his response. Like, it’s not a very like warm, a motherly, you know, you can do this, go off, you go, why are you asking me the stupid question?

[00:30:08] So seek danger,

[00:30:11] Jesse, because I heard the one time actually even told me off because, you know, this patient came like half an hour late and I was like, I can’t see them. Like, I’ve got this Payman in my room and he goes, Rob, yeah, I heard you said, you’re not going to see a patient. And I was like, they were half an hour late. Dr Gill, I’m running really late already. He’s like, How dare you say, no, you’re not going to see a patient? He’s like, How many times do we run late? I’m like, Sometimes we do because somebody else turns up late. That makes us more late, and I’m already running late and I’ll be one hour late. He goes, Doesn’t matter. He goes, I hate this dentist, but sit in their office and they sit there with their arms crossed and they refuse to see a patient that’s late, but they’ll run late themselves. He said, Look, I looked at the end of the day, you actually had time here because this patient cancelled, never refused to see a patient. You tell them, I understand you’re late. I will fit you in at some point. He actually actually, I have to say he told me that, and I’ve never actually refused to see a patient, even if they’re late. I tell them, Look, I know you’re late. Things happen. That’s fine. You take a seat and I’ll see you where I can and they appreciate that. And I said, If you can’t wait, I’m happy to reschedule you. And to be honest, most patients of mine aren’t. But if they are, I never have to see them. I’m still traumatised from the telling off I got.

[00:31:10] But yeah, it’s a good point. It’s a good learning point. I agree with that. Yeah, I agree with that.

[00:31:15] Yeah, yeah. So I feel kind of sorry to digress. But yeah, I became a great trainer with him. Yeah. And then after that, my mum in 2018 was diagnosed with cancer. So she’s all better now, but she was diagnosed then, and it was really hard to take her to appointments and be there for her, and I wanted to be there for her. Not that nobody else could, but I wanted to be the one because I felt like I was doing something. So I said, Doctor, go, I can’t travel. It takes me an hour and a half to get to an hour and half back this three hours of my day. I just need to find a local practise, and I did. I found a local practise that left Dr Gill. The local practise is where I work now in Elizabeth. So I joined the twenty seventeen and then I just stayed in 2018, which was diagnosed. I just kept there. Three days left Dr. Gill and Mom got better. But then I, you know, just held on to this practise and bought it in 2019. So there for three years or two years before I bought it.

[00:32:10] Tell me, tell me about tell me about what was going through your head regarding buying this practise?

[00:32:16] Well, I was in that. I always wanted to buy a practise, actually. I’ve no idea why. Now, when I think of, I now have a practise, I’m like it. Why was I always wanted? I always want to buy what I wanted to do because I knew I didn’t want to specialise. You know, I thought, you know, it’s not for me. I don’t want to do all surgery. And though I like doing a bit of everything, I don’t want to specialise. So it’s usually specialised or you become a practise owner, you know? You know, I did really think I was staying associate was an option for me at that time. I just kind of thought by all socialised and thought by is the one for me. And, you know, I’ll get to do things my way and build something and do something again outside of my comfort zone because I see myself as an academic. Business is so out of my comfort zone, you know, to to go to work nine to five, do what you’re done and be done with. It is one thing, but to then be there thinking about it. Twenty four, seven, how you’re going to grow, supporting other people, it’s a completely different thing. And it seemed a lot easier at the time that buying in a pandemic and then running it when nobody else could give you advice because nobody else knew what was going on. They had no clue, you know, ask somebody for advice and we have no idea what to do.

[00:33:18] This is a new thing for us. It was a really hard, really hard. But I did an interview with another dentist on Instagram, and he asked me if you could take a time machine and go back and buy the practise. Still, would you? And it took me ages to come to the answer, but I said yes because I’ve been so stressed these past two years, but I think I have learnt and grown so much from it more personally than business wise, you know, learning how to deal with my anxiety and stress. And I learnt a really important thing recently that because I’m a people pleaser and I want to make everyone happy and you know, everyone to like me, and there’s just something great. I mean, I think it’s ingrained in all humans. We all want, you know, that’s what we’re designed to, you know, get like us. I realise that being a leader and a boss is very different to being an associate. When I was associate working there with the staff, they loved me. I was great, you know, I didn’t. I didn’t pay their wages. I didn’t tell them what to do. I’d come in two days, have a laugh. Biden staff leave, but now I’m there telling them that I need them to be on time. I need to do this, you know? You know, I order organisation changing rules. I realised to be a great leader. Sometimes you can’t necessarily be likeable at all times. That’s something I really struggle with.

[00:34:30] Me too. It’s hard. I’ve got a big issue with that myself. But but there’s two ways around it. One. One of your partners becomes that.

[00:34:39] That Can I make my husband doing your husband to my brother? Be the meanie. But still, then they tend to you to look for other things, so you still have to sometimes.

[00:34:47] Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. The other side of it is with experience. You get to the point of realising that that is leadership. Having those uncomfortable conversations,

[00:34:59] I really struggle Payman, I

[00:35:00] Mean, look, there’s some there are some conversations that I’ve had to have, sometimes with people who who who would like, you know, were instrumental in the growth of the business. People who who give, you know, they were doing, you know, they say they would sleep on the floor with me if I asked them to. They would, yeah. And yet that person’s no longer in the right job. And it’s, you know, how do you how do you deal with that? It’s another totally difficult, you know, we say people pleaser. I’m definitely that guy. But but it comes down to in the end that, you know, leadership is about lots of things. But one of them is that I think I think though, you’ve got all the other things right down. Yeah, because the main thing is communicating with your people

[00:35:47] And communicating, I think I’m too open and too honest to the point where I tell them, tell them, like we just spent, you know, 40 grand, just fixing the bloody boiler. I don’t know how this exploded. And then we got the electrician and the chair, and I tell, I’m really open and really honest. Sometimes my partner is like my husband, brother, like, you don’t have to tell staff everything. And I’m like, Yeah, I know, but that’s for me. That’s I think I talk too much. I tell everyone

[00:36:10] Everything. We publish our numbers every day.

[00:36:14] Yeah, honestly, you could Google me, you know where I live, my back for my password, for everything because it’s the same. Like someone’s going to hack me and take my money.

[00:36:22] So tell me, OK, you’ve got that side of it, the leadership, the leadership side of it. But what about the pandemic? You bought it. And straightaway, that was pandemic

[00:36:31] 5th of April. We signed the contract. I mean, I because we just got back from Australia because my husband’s Australian and went to this family and there were while we were out there, they’re like, Don’t come back. It’s really weird here. Like people are queuing in the shops. Things are like, you know, missing from the shelves. There’s no toilet paper happening so easily. Like in Australia, everything was normal at that time that I just stay there. I was like, No, I’m going to come back. We’re going to sign these papers, you know, we’re buying the practise. Yeah, and we came back and we’re like, Should we do this? This is a good time. Like, is this we’re about to put millions into this tiny two and a half chair and it’s just practise in either worthless that house. It’s not even like a magnificent thing, you know, then I just practise those are listening, you know, goodwill costs an arm and a leg and kidney in our brain. It costs so much. So we spent a lot of money on this tiny little place to go and we should be between this should we be actually investing in this?

[00:37:19] And were you convinced that buying an NHS practise, I mean, you’re not thinking, you know, private.

[00:37:25] I’ve always worked in NHS and I I think it is a flawed system for dentistry, but I do believe in the NHS and I just feel like if they come up with a better system, it can benefit all. Like, you know, the banking system is truly ridiculous and you know, you can get a root canal for a Bantus and you can get a mouth guard for a three. It’s it’s really stupid system, but I still believe in it, you know, and a lot of people rely on and I do find that and it just brings patients in and it brings in goodwill. And like, I’ll get patients come in for NHS check up, but leave with an Emacs crown and wanting Invisalign just because they want to know that they have access to the NHS because they feel the working class like myself, and they want to know that they can access that. It doesn’t mean they’re necessarily going to go for all amalgam fillings. And so I think there is a tactical business logic to it as well, not just I believe in the NHS. There’s a bit of everything going into it. And it’s also that security that during the pandemic, we still had the NHS money coming in. You know, whereas private practise, a lot of them struggled unless they had, like done plan and practise plan and that kind of money coming in and patients hadn’t cancelled it. The those practises were struggling. And I think then it just kept us afloat.

[00:38:31] But there’s a group. I mean, there’s definitely a group of people now saying they’re going to leave the NHS because of this.

[00:38:36] Oh, loads. I did a poll the other day like five percent, 80 percent. Well, that’s on the BDA. Yeah, but like 50 percent of people might think that voting, I think, was about one hundred and two said that they are leaving. Yeah. And I was like, Wow, that’s not.

[00:38:50] You’re not thinking that yourself.

[00:38:52] No, I own the business. So, you know, and I’ve just paid a lot of it, a lot of money for that kind of contact. I had paid for that. Goodbye paid for that. And it’s like, I can’t leave it. Sometimes I think, yeah, we should. But no, it would be a really bad business decision and it would lose a lot of money if we do that. So hopefully that just doesn’t go anywhere any time soon. But maybe if I was working for someone else, then maybe, yeah, maybe I would. Maybe it would tell me about keep it to a limited number.

[00:39:20] So tell me about motherhood. I mean, we discussed it at the beginning. I’m the chuckling. I mean, you are you still as sort of into teeth as you were before being a mother?

[00:39:33] Yes, surprisingly. But I find it harder to be so because before I had Ilana, I would just be like, message somebody on his tribe like, Oh hey, Ahmed, feel you know you do great composites. You teach really well. Can I just come to you? Like, yeah, I’m in Pimlico. If I jump on a train one hour. Go over there. Film with him. Come back. Now it’s like, I want to film with somebody, but I have Ilana and my husband needs to go to work. I don’t want to put her in nursery, so I can’t really. It has to be a day where I can be like him. Do you mind taking the day off? Did you watch it? Then I can go film like even now today to do a podcast review so that she’s not crawling around and screaming and jumping on me. Like, come to my mum’s house and said, Can you watch her for a bit while I’m on a podcast? So it’s it’s a lot harder to work around. It’s not as flexible when you have a baby in terms of my free time is no longer my free time. But in terms of loving dentistry, the two days I go back to work now, I do love it. I absolutely love it.

[00:40:25] I love it even more, right? Because yeah, me time. My wife, my wife used to say, it’s me time and I can understand it. Meeting someone else. It’s not weird.

[00:40:35] Yeah, I know they say that, right? You’ve got your work life, your family life, and then you’ve got your meet my me time. Work time is the same because I don’t really have any time. So I get to go to work, talk to my staff. I get to chat to my patients. Have a laugh, do some dentistry and then come home to my baby and just love and miss her even more.

[00:40:52] I mean, bit of advice and you know, there’s no right or wrong in all of this. Yeah, but nanny. And I honestly, honestly, you’re busy. Yeah, yeah. And you know, your mom, I don’t know where she lives and how far away she is and all that, all of that lucky, but not too far. But, but, you know, busy people and you should consider nannies in general. And we had a nanny. She stayed with us for 12 years now. Ok. It’s not always going to be like that. You might struggle. You can’t trust people. There was a time where every time my kid used to say something amazing, I was like, what? Actually, Matt? And then she said, Oh, the nanny taught me that. And I would sort of feel like, Wait a minute, this is cool. Yeah, you’re getting something other than flexibility out of out of the out of your nanny.

[00:41:39] My mom is like my current nanny at the moment. She’s terrific.

[00:41:42] Yeah.

[00:41:43] And she’s the one who teaches a lot of everything.

[00:41:45] I mean, maybe I’m saying both sets of grandparents of my parents and my wife’s parents were both abroad, so we had to have someone to help us out or whatever. But it’s a bit like your first employee. You know, you need someone to push you into hiring sometimes, you know. We’re like that enlightened my partner, Sanjay. Whenever there’s a problem, he’s thinking, Who? Who can we bring in to take care of this problem? And for me, my natural position isn’t normally to think of hiring. You know, I like I say no, right? Or What are you going to have more?

[00:42:19] I would like to. I would like to, but I kind of want to because I found out when we signed the papers for the practise in April and then we had to close the doors the next day. I was really sick. I thought I was just tired and stressed and thought, week close a practise, you know, I can’t furlough the staff, can’t get business grant because technically we counted as a new business because we were after March. Anybody before March got all the grants and we didn’t. I thought, Oh, this just must be the stress of this is why I’m getting sick and tired, and

[00:42:44] I feel like working capital to cover that all your staff’s wages for three months.

[00:42:49] So luckily, because the money was still coming in, of course.

[00:42:52] Of course, of course.

[00:42:52] Of course, costs were you able to not furlough them, but we just told them, Look, stay home, we’re going to pay you, we’re going to fixed ours. Six, We just paid all the staff. You’re going to get a fixed wage if you want to come in a couple hours a day, you can do. And we had our receptionist calling all the people over 60, checking that they could get the food and shopping done and stuff like that, you know, and that’s a lot of times the nurses would come in and just reorganise the shelves and the cupboards and just a couple of hours just to keep them on. They enjoyed it so that I could get out of the house could attract at home. So they kind of enjoyed coming to the practise and they’d be like, Look, there’s no fixed hours, nothing. You paid nine to six. But if you want to come and you can, and then we just started redecorating because we were inside the practise that we were, OK, let’s just paint the surgery. Let’s do a few things. And like when I was painting, I was like, Oh, I’m getting old. And then I took a pregnancy test is like, Oh, OK, so I got the practise. I got the baby exactly the same time. So yeah, that was a big, big surprise.

[00:43:46] And how about this book now? I mean, it’s not like you weren’t busy enough

[00:43:50] And you started the book before the practise and before. But oh, really? Yeah. So when I started social media actually about a year after Nicola had been following me for a while to go, I you said you just interviewed her recently. Yeah, I love you. And she, similar to the media company, just messaged and said, OK, I really like the way you talk on your stories. I like you and you know, you seem young and full of energy. I have a project for you. Come meet me at my practise. And then I told my husband this random lady brand of Iranian lady. She looks quite sweet on her stories. She wants to meet me for a project is like what project looks like. She hasn’t said she’s uses a secret project, because why are you going to go meet this random Iranian dentist lady? You don’t know to do a secret project you don’t know about? He, just like she could be weird. I was like, No, I can see her videos. She’s not weird. She’s just, he’s not. Why you? I said I didn’t know. She said she thinks I’m nice. She’s been following me. She’s like, OK. Then I went to her practise in her will. So she has. She has to. And I went there and she goes, I want to write a book. And she was like, people my age. They just they just don’t. They’re not interested anymore. They want to retire. They don’t have the zest to this. And she’s like young people. They don’t have the knowledge, but she’s like, You’re you’re in the middle. You seem to have the time, the knowledge, the zest for dentistry doing a work on this project with me. And I said, sure.

[00:45:01] I said, if we’re 50 50 partners, I’ll put in as much energy as you want me to. But I said, you know, I want my money that I come from this to go to charity because I’ve been looking for a project to do for charity. So do you mind if I do something like that? She’s like, I have no problem. I said, OK, let’s work on it. So we just started working. She had some ideas already. She’s like, I want it to be like a flow chart book. And I said, Whatever, you know, I’m ditzy and brown, so we’re taught like, you know, if I was older than you just kind of say, I was like, Yeah, whatever you want to call, I will do it this way. She’s like, Can you come to a practise? Yes, we’ll do it. Yes, boss, like everything. And so she loved it. This partnership worked. I had so much respect for her because she had so much knowledge and so much time and energy to share with me. And I just had the time at the time to sit there writing up stuff, looking at evidences, looking at papers. And when I started doing the project, it was quite exciting because I was like, Oh wow, you know, there’s 10 different ways you can do this. There’s 20 different ways you can do this. And you know, all the evidence is behind things, and we just started working on the book. And yeah, I just went from there, just kind of spiralled and just got bigger, and we started making more chapters and adding more things. And it just. Came this dead Australian after an exciting project for the two of them really

[00:46:02] Is really interesting, so fully for charity. It was just your bit for charity and Nick Nick Fury.

[00:46:11] I think Nicola’s doing a few things. Tragically, she was mentioning there’s a few things she wants to do, but I never question is that whatever you do with your heart is your blood. I always mention, I always say my profits are one hundred percent go there. But there is a few things she’s doing for charity as well. But I had a few places that I wanted to help and I want is I don’t know if you know who does wells and wills. Yeah. So just donated there for a village there, which was quite nice. And there’s a few schools in Pakistan and there’s some homeless shelter here in the UK. Hand on heart, I like there what they do for their charities, so I just kind of wanted to find a way to make a difference because I feel like my time isn’t my time now. So if I can’t donate my time for charity, at least I could donate some wealth. So something

[00:46:50] Crappy. Why are you that person now who wants to do something for charity and believes in the NHS for what it is? And you know what? Why don’t you do the other type of, you know, like make as much money as I can and

[00:47:04] Maybe religiously like and from things that happened in my life? You know, when I got married to ill two weeks, three weeks after his mum passed away from cancer, she was diagnosed four months before the wedding with melanoma, and she passed away two weeks after the wedding, which was Australia. It was really stressful time actually flying back and forward, and we got married early before the wedding date so I could fly with him, you know, practise her parents, Pakistani. They’re not gonna let me fly with her, with my fiance to Australia. You get married in the mosque, got off. You go and then you fly to Australia. And then we saw her in the hospital that she was like, No, you guys go back for your wedding. I want to see your wedding pictures. I can’t be there the wedding, but I want my son to have his wedding. So we flew back and then three days flew back into Australia. And then she she was in palliative care for two weeks, and then she passed away. And when my father was putting her stuff away, you know, her PhD is under What do I do with her PhD? What I do with her gold jewellery? Look, I walk in closet with all these clothes. What do we do if she’s not taking anything with her? And it’s true. We don’t. We don’t take anything with us. You know, we only think you really can leave behind is people who might say something nice about you. And I remember at the funeral when everybody met me, we didn’t have our reception to laughter and they were like that that up in the black, she must be a Carlile’s new wife.

[00:48:19] You know, that’s that’s her daughter, Leaders, Janet’s daughter in law, and I can hear people whispering, then they’ll come up to me like, Oh, you know, sorry about your mother in law. She was amazing, and everyone had these wonderful things to say about it. She’s so helpful. She helped us with this and she helped me do this, and she was so kind. And it’s just it was amazing to hear about her because I didn’t know her for very long and I thought, you know, when I die, would what would people say about me? Have I helped anyone? Have I touched anybody in a special way to make them feel that they would want to come to my funeral and say something? And, you know, so I just felt like maybe I hadn’t made enough an impact in somebody else’s life other than mine or my family’s. So I thought, how can I help somebody else? You know, how can I leave something behind that benefits others? And then I started becoming a bit religious and studying into it and thinking, Oh, what is religion about? What makes somebody a good person? What means somebody will enter heaven, whatever religion you believe in with, you know what? What, what is it? And every religion, text, religious textbook you read, every religion you look into is about what do you do for others? So I just started looking at, OK, what can I do for somebody other than myself? And yes, that’s where it kind of came from.

[00:49:28] That’s beautiful. You know, I’ve been recently thinking about religion, about God. I don’t believe in God myself, really. But but the question of do you believe or don’t you believe that now is less important to me then should there be a God or shouldn’t there be a God? And where I’m coming from is? Give it another five, 10 years. Yeah, and we could easily arrange for AI and computers to literally keep an eye on everyone. Yeah, yeah. If there was this fact checker in your in your ear that there was a situation where I can’t lie to you because as soon as I tell a lie, your your fact checker just, you know, tells tells you. And and if the computer knows and it does, it already knows where you are, what you’re buying. All of that stuff, if it knows your intention and all that. Yeah, yeah. Is it a good thing? Will society be better off if everyone knows there’s a third party, an outside force, checking up on them rather than with God? It’s like, OK, he’s all knowing all that. But not, but not everyone believes in God. Yeah, true. But so, so if we all knew there was an outside force checking up, checking up on us, would we be? Would we be a happier society or not?

[00:50:41] It would be a happier society. It wouldn’t be a society. Yes, very different society. So I did check. I would say, I think twice before doing something dodgy. If you think the police is watching you.

[00:50:50] That’s the thing. Yeah, that’s the thing.

[00:50:53] I think that’s where the religious, you’re right. There’s a lot of religion. You have the group that do it out of fear, like God is watching me. God will punish me. And you have the group that do out of love that I do it for the love of God and the love of people, you know? So you would end up with, I think, a fear based society, which I don’t know if always is the best way. But I guess if you’re scaring people into not murdering and not stealing, maybe that’s not a bad thing.

[00:51:14] Well, you know, you know, traditionally you’re a good person and you go to heaven or whatever. Yeah. This way you could be a good person. The computer could drop bitcoin into your account, you know, like it could be like something that’s like, you know, you

[00:51:27] Think I like your system?

[00:51:29] I’m not necessarily saying it’s a good idea because I don’t want outside force knowing what I’m doing all the time. But but what I’m saying is it’s it’s it’s we’re there. We’re literally there. We could, we could set it up. You know,

[00:51:41] It’s I honestly, I talked about vacuum cleaner the other day and now keeping adverts for a shark vacuum cleaner. And I really haven’t I? Yeah, they already watching. They know everything. If I stare at it bit too long for necklaces and now my Instagram, every advert is like a monarch of another day or Pandora necklace, so they know everything about us already.

[00:52:00] It’s kind of a good thing, though, isn’t it? Because it’s better, better that than than you get ads for, you know, shavers, you know,

[00:52:07] You have a point. Now I spend more and I don’t need to.

[00:52:11] Let’s let’s move on to darker days. Hmm. We ask everyone this question on this podcast. What’s been your worst day in dentistry? Maybe it’s maybe it was your most difficult patient, maybe your biggest mistake that you made on a patient, something a story that you know, give us your juiciest story that we can all learn from. It’s not just about juicy, right? Something, something we can all learn from. Something you would have done differently in retrospect. On reflection,

[00:52:42] Don’t think it was super dark when actually surprising. You don’t have a juicy, juicy, dark one. I think maybe we haven’t done enough exciting dentistry yet to do a super dark. I know amazing small smokers yet. What kind of the aligned region bond safe dentistry I’ve been practising, you know, none of those full mouth rehabs recently. I could think of a mistake I did recently. You know, I came off maternity leave and it’s been a while and I did have beautiful crowd prep. It was just so nice. And on the, you know, I looked at the x ray, but I didn’t really look at the x ray and I didn’t look at the distal margin, how low it was. And I came to it and I thought, Oh, the gum looks a little bit higher here. I just like a gentle ginger to me. Put the crown on patients. Happy hunky-dory. Two months later, she came to me last week and it’s popped off and she’s like, You know, I’ve got ten crowns in my mouth and none of them have come off. They’ve been in there for years. How did this one come off? And then I looked at the x ray and she needed crown lengthening. Obviously, the distal margin was so close to bone, and had I just spent the time looking at the PA that I took, so I did a very robotic. I took my PA and looked at it. No pre-collision. I didn’t assess anything else. Yeah, I tried to blame the fact I just come off maternity leave and I was acting in a robotic fashion. But actually, I think if I just spend a little bit longer looking at the x ray, I think I was just overwhelmed by the fact that I’d come in how to keep to time had to do this and so that everything was beautiful.

[00:54:06] How did you handle it? What did you say?

[00:54:08] I told her, actually, I just said to her, I only said her name. Then I said, the patient, lovely patient Miss X. I said to her, If I tell you honestly, the reason is everything is perfect. I use the best crowned best materials. Lithium, like a crown comes with a five year guarantee is called iMac’s crown. As you can see here, I should have pictures and one thing we have in our practise into your camera and I love it. I swear by it. I tell all dentists on my stories. Forget if you can’t afford an SLR, get yourself into your camera. So that is a lifesaver to save you so many times. And I take pictures and it opens up that communication with patients. And, you know, if I forget the dark days, if I give you one lesson to them is invest in a thousand fifteen hundred pound like intra oral camera. You can take pictures and your patients yourself will look at the picture and be like, Oh my God, I got a whole year. Oh, I’ve got Tata here. I need to see the hygienist. They tell you what they need rather than saying, Oh, you need four fillings instead and they leave thinking, Do I really need the filling? Do I not need the fillings because they don’t understand x rays? Even though I show them the x rays and I show them both levels, I show them this black shadow is decay. What does that really mean to them? But when I take photographs, then I put a photograph next to X Ray and I say, Look, can you see this grey doing? And you see this x ray? This is a cavity, but can you see here the black dot here? But that’s just staining because it’s not sticky, and I take a long time communicating everything to them, and I leave the worst picture of their mouth behind me.

[00:55:29] And when they talk to me, I can see them just looking at picture thinking, Oh, that’s my mouth, and they’re trusting me. And because they can see what’s in their mouth and they always say to me, I’ve never seen inside my mouth like that before, and I’ll take a picture of the calculus. But you see the hygienist, they’re like, Oh, yes, I need that. And for this lady, what? I’d done it. I’d taken a picture throughout. I’d taken a picture of a preparation because that distal margin was low and I’d warned her that you might need root canal. So my fear was that she was going to come back and she might need an end date. But it turned out the crown in popped off and I explained to her I said, Look, I was hoping to get away with doing a crowd without needing to resect any bone. But actually? And even if I’m truthful, I should have said to her it was my mistake. I should have cut the bone down and then done this, and I wouldn’t. It popped off what? I slightly added a little bit of. I’m not untruthfulness, but I didn’t fully say to her, This is this is this I said to her I was hoping to avoid to need crown lengthening. But I said, ideally, I said to her, I should have done this from the start, but I didn’t.

[00:56:29] And this is why the Crown has come off. If I was you, I’d also be upset because now you have to go through this procedure again. I would like to give you a refund, so I gave her the full refund. I’m going to stick this crown back on today and because it’s been two years since I’ve done a crown, the procedure myself, I’m qualified to do it after the course and training in it. I don’t want to do this for you because I know I’m not the best person to give you the outcome that this tooth deserves. So I have another dentist, Dr. Navid, and he’s fantastic at what he does, and I will share your case with him and he will be able to do this for you. And she was like, I was absolutely fine. I said, If you’ve lost trust in me, I completely understand. And she goes, No, she was. I came back to you because I trust you. You’re the only dentist I ever been to that showed me all the pictures of mouth told me all the problems in my mouth, and you even said to me that I could go for the cheaper option. But I still picked this option because of the way you described it to me. So. She was like, no, I haven’t lost trust in me. And she goes, I blame my stars. She’s like, I’ve had a lot of bad things happening lately. It’s in my stars. So blasé was that kind of vision. It could have been a patient that could have been the complete opposite. You don’t blame the stars and blamed me and my competence, but

[00:57:32] Probably that seems like a success story to me.

[00:57:34] Yeah, but to me, it feels bad because I should have planned that case properly in my head, of course, but you must

[00:57:40] Have a better story than that.

[00:57:43] Honestly. And apart from, you know, not getting to a deficit, no, honestly speaking, that for me is for me, that was bad because that was poor planning, though it is bad.

[00:57:53] I get what you’re coming from, but it’s not. Yeah, well, I’m a.

[00:57:58] Ok, good. That makes you feel really good. Actually, I been feel guilty since I’ve been feeling really guilty for her. I just like, you know, Oh, OK, good that you really feel something.

[00:58:06] Are you sure ever a patient who lost confidence in you?

[00:58:10] Actually, I have patients who lose confidence in other dentists that come to me, even though I feel like they’re better dentists than I am. And they are, and I always say to them that this work is incredible. I think what it is, you know, Payman is my communication. You look at fundamental stuff for ages that

[00:58:26] Bedside manner, stuff really, really counts.

[00:58:28] I’m not the best dentist in the world. Honestly, I look up my work. Sometimes I’m like, That is a really crap composite bonding case. And I do have one month

[00:58:37] Ago, I’ve chosen a surgeon based on bedside manner. Yeah, and it doesn’t make any sense at all. It has nothing to do with the way it’s going to do this operation, but you end up choosing the one you connect with the most, you know? Yeah. So, you know, I

[00:58:50] Am like, Yeah, I do. I think because I know my dentistry is good and not incredible. I know I have to have my bedside manner here. So, yes, my my composites are great on my fitness, but can I do full of going on my exams course on Monday for veneers and crowns? I’m doing his to tear up my skills because because I’ve been an NHS dentist for such a long time. Yeah, I have done a lot of energy dentistry and I’m bringing now creeping in those skills of, you know, doing good whitening and applying bleach and bond and doing more in baseline cases. And what I’m going, what aesthetic now a lot later than I feel like dentists these days come out. And after FDA, they’re doing a line detour bond, you know, whereas when I’m qualified, that wasn’t the thing everyone did. And it’s just industry for five years. And then you chose to go private or do extra things. So now it’s kind of like I’ve been, you know, if I didn’t have maternity leave in the middle of the pandemic, I think I would have done it maybe two years ago, which is when I did start the two year course. I’m only finishing it now. I would have done a lot more exciting industry where the challenges would have come, where I would have really put a veneer on the wrong way round or done more things that I could be like. Actually, this happened to a friend of mine. I know the nurse. I think she prepped the veneers and he was like, I put them back on. But I think she put the upper right one up, left one in different places and he’s like, Put it on. And he was like, Oh shit, that looks wrong, but you had to polish it off.

[01:00:07] Listen, when asked this question, the same question I just asked you if Basil Mizrahi. Yes. Top dentist in the country. He’s done that, has he?

[01:00:17] Yeah. Well, I haven’t done a video case yet, so now I know from learning from my friend, this is why it’s so important to talk to us. And I know that’s I’m telling you, I’ve done dentistry, I’ve done single veneer. And that’s it. I’ve done a composite bonding. I’ve done, you know, three to three case veneers. No, whenever it comes up, referred them off. I’ve been playing it really safe.

[01:00:37] Payman really. Well, that’s that’s that’s absolutely right. Isn’t that that is correct, isn’t it? Yeah. Dental. I feel like deferring things that you don’t think you’re up to. Yeah, that’s that’s the way it should be, right?

[01:00:48] Yeah. So I haven’t done veneers, but I’ve done lots of crowns. I haven’t done a full mouth rehab yet, but those are things that I want to do. But I want to have the skill before I experiment with someone, and I will tell them that you are my first case and let us

[01:01:00] Talk about, well, let’s talk about the future then.

[01:01:03] Yes.

[01:01:04] How much of your future do you see as, you know, dentist treating patients and how much of your future do you see as teacher teaching dentists?

[01:01:15] I’m hoping to do a mix.

[01:01:16] Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree with that. But but you know, your page is definitely I know you said you started out trying to find patients, but it’s definitely a dentist focussed page. Yeah. And you’ve got a massive talent in that area. You know, you really do. I don’t want to embarrass you, but you’ve got a massive talent in that area. And of course, your credibility as a teacher tends to come from being a wet fingered dentist anyway, so it makes sense for the whole thing to work together.

[01:01:44] Yeah. Learning from my own mistakes. Yeah, but in

[01:01:46] Your own head? Yeah. Like, I don’t know. I would say in the content side, you’re really particularly special. You’re one of the special people in the area. As a dentist, I know maybe you are. Maybe you know

[01:02:01] What to do. I want to become that, do you?

[01:02:04] That’s my point. That’s my

[01:02:05] Point. Do you? Yeah, I do. So like obviously because of having Alana my take out, you know, first, it was a pandemic for a year and then I had Alana and then she needed me because she was allergic to cow’s milk, so I had to feed her personally. So that was a long journey myself and I couldn’t just go to work, so I haven’t been able to go out and courses and do things. But my first step now, tomorrow is my first on Monday is my first day back into courses and I really want out my skills. I really want to be able to be the best dentist I can be and then learn from my mistakes and then teach it on, which is what 20 topics was about. It was about helping other dentists feel confident in themselves and not feel like they can’t achieve what the other dentists are achieving. You know, because I’m I still feel it sometimes when I see other people’s work, I’m not with this person and we went to the qualifier two thousand bloody twenty. You qualified and you put your work is better than mine. Wow, I need to up my skill

[01:02:52] And you wait, wait to get a bit older. That’ll have to start happening all the time. It’s Richard Field that bagged fourth year dental student. And then and then you suddenly see him take you over and think, like, I stole that. If I needed something done, I’d go to Richard Field, right? That’s the thing, right?

[01:03:11] Sometimes I think I’m like, if I do feel comfortable doing my own veneers, not that you’ve been inspired, but if I ever needed do that, I know that I’m not good enough yet, you know, so I need to be able to be like, Yes, I want to go to myself and there’s no other dentist better than me, and I want to be that dentist, you know?

[01:03:25] But with the practise as well as practise, do you have plans? Do you have plans for own growth of the practise or more practises? Or what are your plans now?

[01:03:36] You know, up until recently, every day I was like, I just want to. I want to. I wish it came with the receipt where I could return within 12 months. You know, I was like, Oh, you back, I want to go back to the guy, man, this is hard. This is so hard. I hate dealing with people. I hate dealing with staff hiring, firing, just relying on other people. You know, I wish I had robots. You know, my staff are great, the girls are lovely and I love how they work together. But when they’ve got issues or they’ve got problems, we’ve got. Issues, we’ve got problems. You know, it’s just trying to work my way out of because as an employee, I just used to come in and five do my job, no drama. I just. I expect everyone to be like that, but it’s not like that with everyone. And it’s hard and it’s hard managing them and accommodating them. And and which is why I feel like I still have to do this to the point where I don’t feel so overwhelmed by it, like initially social media and putting myself out there and filming, making videos used to make me sweat when I was doing influence.

[01:04:26] The one thing I have to give to that media company, they really helped me get out of my comfort zone and talk on camera and not be so anxious. And now I actually give up a video conference. And I thought I’d be nervous. I said to them, I’m nervous, but actually I wasn’t. It was the first time I didn’t get dry mouth. I didn’t get sweaty. I thought, OK, so I’ve grown in an aspect of myself, which I didn’t ever think I could do. So now I need to do that in this business. I need to be comfortable being a leader, not just a people pleaser, and I need to just expand this business and not be scared and run away because right now I have to have a meeting with my staff this week with my nurses. You know, somebody asked for a pay rise, somebody that offered this, somebody asked me something that maybe they don’t deserve. And I’m like, Oh, to have that conversation to say that to someone. Well, the first time I defy someone, I felt like I was going to throw up. It was so hard. I literally cried two weeks ago. Never gets

[01:05:13] Any easier. It doesn’t.

[01:05:14] I need to. I just, you know, I need to grow.

[01:05:17] What does this come from? I mean this every time I ask you a question, you say, Well, because it makes me uncomfortable. I’ve got to do it. How long ago did you become that person? Because that’s my husband. Is it? Is it?

[01:05:30] Yeah, yeah. I’m I’ve always been just comfortable with what I know, and that’s what I like. I just like doing things that I’m good at and just being comfortable in that. But when I got married, I realised he’s the complete opposite. He does everything like if he doesn’t get something, he’ll just keep doing it until he gets good at it. And then he’ll move on and he’ll just attack all these challenges. And I’m just like, Oh man. Someone said, my cake wasn’t good. I’m never going to bake again. That was me. My uncle once said to me, Robbie, I like your cake is it’s still undercooked. I’m like, How can you undercook a cake? This cake seemed fine. Oh, I’m never going to bake again, you know? But I can’t. You can’t be that person. You’ll never grow. You’ll never go anywhere. And it comes from him constantly hearing it from him and then him introducing me to reading books again. And I stopped reading books when I was younger. I used to love like Enid Blyton, real, like a bookworm, and then I just stopped, and then he introduced me to Audible. And then different books like, you know, obstacle is the way the subtle art of not giving a f and a few other things, you know? And I just thought I knew stylistic, and I started listening to this and I think, Oh, wow, like this is how people think and this is how people develop and grow books. Books is the way I did realise, and I hate reading. I fall asleep. So Audible was fantastic. Anybody who struggles with reading, I definitely recommend it. Now, when I drive to work, I’m listening to a book, you know, and it’s it’s fabulous and it really helps me change the way I think.

[01:06:46] Well, what are your responsibilities in the practise and what are the other two? Have you set those sort of clear boundaries of who does what?

[01:06:52] Yeah, yeah. So my brother does money. He’s money, Mr. Money, Man, Finance, paying the staff, et cetera. My husband’s a practise manager, so he does everything we’ve called. We say, if anything’s broken, go to Kalil. If you want any money, go to a man. If you got life problems, if there’s any complaints, you come to me. So I’m the people pleaser, which is why it’s hard. So I’m the one who deals with patient complaints, keeping the staff happy, motivated if they’ve got emotional problems and issues and stresses, and then come to me. So I’m taking how many

[01:07:19] People is it?

[01:07:21] It’s a small practise, but we have everyone working part time. So we have two full time nurses, one part time nurse, two full time receptionists. So it’s five main staff and then dentists there about, I think, seven part time dentists and three part time hygienists.

[01:07:38] And it’s funny listening to you, it really resonates with me about my teams as well. I’m responsible for two teams. Yeah, one of four and one of five. That’s me, a nine people I’m responsible for in my company. And sometimes I go through massive stress about one of these nine people like huge, massive stress about it. And then you think, you know, Richard Branson or Jeff Bezos or something like a million employees here, and they’re not thinking about those million, by the way, we’ve got 40 employees, but I only think about those nine. Yeah, but it’s it’s a funny thing that, you know, get yourself properly involved with people. Hmm. You end up, you know, feeling their pain or, you know, those sort of things. I want to finish it with you didn’t tell me what you want to do in the future and the practise.

[01:08:30] What are you going to do? Yeah, I want to expand it. We’re hoping to. But the council is being annoying. Once upon a time in our backyard, we used to have sheep, so we can’t expand it that way. The conservation area. So, you know, now it’s concrete and so an extra train station, but still so we’re trying to push through through the council and get some funds to expand a little bit, add one or two more surgeries because at the moment it’s quite small. So it’s kind of like a situation where we can complete and just contract and make a little bit of more money with the hygiene, but really to expand, to grow, to be able to pay off that loan faster, we need to add another chair. So we’re not so dependent on fashion nowadays to complete our contracts right now. That’s what it is. You know, it’s kind of a break even situation, which is a good place to be in. But I want to be making money, you know? Sure. So.

[01:09:14] So it would be interesting if you could put a dentist from 30 years ago and told him, Look, this is what she’s saying. You know, the economics have changed so much that, you know, break even you’re happy with break even. There’s no way people would be happy with break, even back back in the day. You know, when I finish it with the usual final questions that we always ask on this podcast. So there’s Prav ones. And if you’ve ever heard this before?

[01:09:40] I wish I listened to the podcast.

[01:09:43] Now I feel that it’s a bit dark. It’s your it’s your final day. You’re on your deathbed. Oh, it is dark. Yeah. Don’t focus on the death, but you’ve got you’ve got your friends and family, all the people who are dearest to you around you. What a three bits of advice you would give them for their lies.

[01:10:05] For their lives, yeah. Hmm. I think enjoy every day, you know, all the little things, the mundane things that sitting there watching Netflix with your husband and making yourself a cup of tea, do as much as you can for other people. And. The 33. Don’t worry so much. You know, I feel like I worry a lot about everything. Just don’t worry so much because this life is really short. Nice.

[01:10:43] Yeah, it’s interesting when you get when you get these from people that normally it’s like that where you get one or two of the thing they’re doing and then one or two of the thing they’re not doing, you know, like you’re you’re a worrier, you don’t want that for other people.

[01:10:55] Yeah, it’s not nice. Not nice. I need to stop now. You made me think about it. Yeah, maybe it’s just calmed down.

[01:11:05] Chill. And my final question, it’s a bit of a like a fantasy dinner party kind of story dinner party. Three guests that are alive.

[01:11:17] Oh, who would I have? I hate these kind of questions, because I have no idea who advice, because one I can’t cook very well, my husband’s a cook. Secondly, I’m thinking, I’m thinking, who would I have? What would I want to know? Hmm. Maybe one of the former presidents of America, so I could find out all their secrets and like, tell me all the secrets of what’s happening in the world, what’s actually happening, what’s actually going on? So one of them guys, any of them who goes any of them? And if

[01:11:43] You think the president knows what’s actually going on,

[01:11:46] Yeah, they do, right? They definitely do

[01:11:50] Have the deep state, the deep state, the deep state of the people who don’t change when the president changes, they’re like, you know, they’re in the proper the

[01:11:59] Constant. Okay, maybe any one of them, guys.

[01:12:02] Henry Kissinger, we’ll go with him.

[01:12:05] Yes. Yes, maybe. Who else need to help me out here? Somebody who else would I like? I’ve never thought about this.

[01:12:13] You know, Einstein Gandhi, your grandmother, you know?

[01:12:16] Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, some. And my grandmother still lives some. Somebody maybe Nelson Mandela. He’s a cool guy. Definitely him.

[01:12:27] You can always tell the perfectionists on this question. They take it very, very seriously. They won’t answer until they’ve got the exact right answer.

[01:12:40] Oh, you only get one chance, right? Yeah. Then I’m screwed. I pick the wrong people.

[01:12:44] So you’ve got Henry Kissinger, Nelson Mandela real opposite people, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this guy,

[01:12:52] Who else has been quite cool.

[01:12:55] Hmm. Childhood, Jackson, childhood hero, I was going to say,

[01:13:01] Was he actually killed Michael Jackson? He would be an interesting one. Michael Jackson Entertainment is always a good singer and dancer, so there’ll be some good entertainment.

[01:13:08] What an interesting party. Yeah. Henry Kissinger, Nelson Mandela, Michael Michael Jackson and Rob.

[01:13:18] Yeah. Why would you know who if he was actually killed or did he have a heart attack? And you know, just some entertainment would be nice. I think about the guests.

[01:13:28] It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you. And honestly, I don’t know if you got it, but from my side, yeah, I want to encourage you to do more of the content. Yeah, focus on the content.

[01:13:42] Would you like to work on the content with me?

[01:13:44] Payman. Absolutely. 100 percent. 100 percent. But the content? Don’t forget the content itself can pay. If you want it to pay, it can. There’s no there’s no problem with that. I know you might think it’s might pollute this wonderful thing that you’re doing if you start bringing money into it. But it someone someone like you comes across as so authentic who teaches with so much joy. For me, those two things you know that so rare. They get someone who’s so authentic teaching with so much joy that you know you have a following. And once you have a following, you know you can you can find something you’re good at and sell a course on that or whatever it is. But you’ve got a talent there. For all I know, you’ve got talent in practise ownership as well. But of course, from that, I’m I’m not there seeing how you’re performing on that. You’ve really got a talent on the content side. I’d encourage anyone to have a look at your page to get your book. Well, Nicole already plugged it, but tell us Amazon, right?

[01:14:47] It’s available on Amazon.

[01:14:49] Amazing. Dental G. In a nutshell.

[01:14:51] That’s it.

[01:14:52] Amazing. It’s been so, so nice to have you. Thank you so much.

[01:14:55] Thank you so much Payman for having me.

[01:14:59] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

[01:15:09] Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:15:14] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] But contentment so undervalued, I mean, at the end of the day, it’s all about being happy, right?

[00:00:04] Yeah, if you find contentment, drive success, like if you can find what makes you happy, then you’ll end up doing that and end up being successful. Like, look at Mini-SAR makeover. I just love coming back to that course because I just love being with you guys and it’s a fun weekend away and and I’m not doing it for like any personal gain or that kind of, like you say, the city of London. You know, let’s go here and let’s further our career and what’s in it for me. I just do it because I love it. But it has then naturally led onto me meeting some amazing dentists. Me learning loads more because I’m seeing the lectures again. Me. And you know, when you teach something, you learn it even better. So the benefits come without ever doing it because there’s benefits.

[00:00:49] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:06] It’s my great pleasure to welcome Dr. Matt Parsons onto the podcast. Matty’s one of my good friends who I first met on Milly Smile make over the composite course that we do. Since then, he’s gone on to become one of the top composite guys in the countries. Fair to say with a brilliant social media profile and actually teaches on the course Know started out, you know, demonstrating and now teaches on the course on marketing. Lovely to have you met. I met you. Ok? Yeah, it’s been a long time coming this one. I’m really happy we managed to do it. I wanted you on with Depeche Mode as well. Anyway, I’m really happy you’re here for anyone listening. This is 1st of January twenty twenty two, which sounds weird, but with the way the virus did. Did you go out last night and have a good time?

[00:01:54] No, no, we were. We were off with a crying baby last night.

[00:01:58] Oh yeah, we went out. But it was it was very quiet. We actually ended up coming home at 11:30.

[00:02:09] I hope you’re straight to bed.

[00:02:11] No, no, no, we did. We stood up, stood around for the, you know, the Sydney. Whatever fireworks? Yeah, a bit different than, oh yeah, Matty. We usually start with the back story charted. What made you become a dentist?

[00:02:27] What if you find out this crazy bombshell for me now? Like, Well, I was born in Uganda,

[00:02:35] Just like

[00:02:36] A boxer that you never knew

[00:02:39] Your mother was a spy? Yeah, yeah. Have you been in the in the

[00:02:44] Forces my whole life? So yeah, I grew up on the world, just outside Liverpool. Normal upbringing, kind of 2.4 kids. Two younger brothers decided I wanted to be a dentist when I was in primary school, about eleven. Really? Yeah, I thought it was. I well, I wanted to be a vet when I was really young. I wrote a letter to Greenpeace wants to save the whales. So I was like some little weird hippie animal lover. And then my friend Benji said to me one day, Oh, I’m going to be a dentist when I’m older. We’re like 11 years old. And I said, Oh, right, OK, cool. So do I. And it genuinely stuck. And that was like the day that I decided, Well, there’s Benji do. He’s an engineer?

[00:03:29] He didn’t. He didn’t make it. But yeah,

[00:03:31] Did you know? So you kind of you do that thing. Don’t you think about all the different options and thought about medicine? Thought of that, thought about all the things, but always kept going back to dentistry work experience. Liked it.

[00:03:43] Enjoyed it. Did you think about leaving Liverpool or were you always going to stay in Liverpool? No.

[00:03:49] My first choice of you and you would have been Manchester if I’d have got an offer. Oh, so my group of friends kind of went to two different unis Manchester and Liverpool John Moores. So going to Liverpool Uni meant that I wasn’t at the same uni as my friends. Or if I’ve gone to Manchester, I would have been, so I would have gone to Manchester, but I didn’t get an offer. So Liverpool was kind of second choice but worked out great. You know, it’s a bit of a sliding doors moment where I look back and think it’s definitely a good thing that happened because I ended up with making really good mates and, you know, absolutely loved my time there and I wouldn’t change it for the world. But the plan was to go to Manchester. My other offer was Newcastle, which I felt was a bit too far away, which is weird because it’s literally a couple of hours and now that feels like nothing at all. But when you’re 18, you know, the drive to Newcastle feels like a different world away compared to the drive to Manchester.

[00:04:38] Did you not consider London or anything

[00:04:40] Wasn’t even on the radar? I don’t know why it wasn’t. It wasn’t a conscious thing. I didn’t even consciously discount it. It just never came into the into the frame. My other, I think Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle, Liverpool, my four choices. I got offers from Newcastle and Liverpool.

[00:04:58] What kind of a kid were you, dude? I’ve got you down as the class clown. Is that not?

[00:05:02] Yeah, no. Nail on the head. Didn’t really know when to take things seriously. Was never, ever nasty. You know it was never horrible. Or I was kind of like forever getting in stupid little bits of trouble like it was never be. It never a big deal or anything. But it was like, you know, mum, my dad used to. Roll their eyes on parents evening when they hear the story and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I think I kind of probably pulled my finger out when I went into sixth form. I don’t know what happened, you know, the the switch just seemed to flick. I started working hard and got the grades I needed in the end.

[00:05:46] And then in Dental school, you were president of the thing, right? The student body. Is that in the final year, that happens for you?

[00:05:55] That was good. That was that was a great year because a few of my good friends were on the committee as well. So we were like organising the event and the nights out and the parties. And that was really fun, really, really fun. Dental school was amazing. Then Dental School was like five of the best years of my life,

[00:06:11] So uni tends to be fun for a lot of people. But did you take the dentistry as in? Were you one of the top guys in the class

[00:06:18] And were nowhere near? Not even close. I would say that I did, and I did enough to pass the exams. You know, it was I didn’t really get passionate about anything and I didn’t really do any extracurriculars within dentistry. I didn’t fail anything. Well, no, I did. I failed cross infection control once because I halfway through maybe taking a tooth out. I leant over to the bin, pulled my mask down spot, spot my chin into the bin and pull my spackle. I choose to like talking to one side and was like, You really

[00:06:52] Can’t do that.

[00:06:54] So I got I’m like, I can’t remove what they call it now, like a probation from my cross infection control warning. Yeah, but no.

[00:07:03] And did you live at home with the whole at all or did you live out the whole time?

[00:07:08] Yeah. I went to halls, went to the first year and lived in like student houses the whole way through, didn’t live with dentists the first three years, which was, I think, good for me.

[00:07:15] Yeah, that’s always a good idea, isn’t it? Did you then work in the NHS at all?

[00:07:22] Yeah, yeah. So did Viti in North Wales. So there was. We did. We were the second year to do national recruitment for VTi. So there was like this big kind of procedure in terms of the application process and our group of friends. It was kind of six of us. Three of us took us, took it really seriously. And for all the work in, did all the research or the read and everything else. And three of us, which I was in kind of said, No, do you know what? We’ll smile and we’ll charm them, and we’re good and we can chat and we’ll be fine. And the three that really put the work in got like these great positions in the great schemes and me. The other one was Jack, who, you know, Rishi, you’ve met as well. Yeah, me and Jack both got North Wales, which is like way down on the list of places that are popular in the Rankin scheme. And Rishi didn’t even get a place. He did eventually, but the three of us just absolutely bombed it. What turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me, really in some ways, because I ended up working with Adrian Thorpe and Ravi Buju on agent specialist oral surgeon Ravi Dental special interest in Ortho loved a bit of endo as well. And with North Wales, you can’t bloody refer, you know, you don’t have a teaching hospital. And the patients generally won’t go private for four and oh, four surgical for this, for that. So it’s just in at the deep end and your options are either give it a go or it doesn’t get done. And when you’ve got mentors a lot and you kind of having to try things, you end up just jumping in at the deep end. And I’ve got such good experience from that. That was obviously VTi year in the NHS and then stayed on there for six months afterwards as a kind of 90 percent NHS associate after that.

[00:09:06] And then he left

[00:09:08] And I left, then I went to Australia. And so we flew we flew New Year’s Eve near enough where I think like twenty eight December or something, we flew to Sydney. We spent three or four months travelling up the East Coast. We flew over to Perth, where I stayed there for half the year, got a job in Perth. It’s really easy to get a job in Perth. Kind of an idea. So my dentist equivalent over there didn’t get on well with Perth. It was just a bit isolated, a bit quiet, not quite right for us. So then we went to Melbourne, we decided to go to Melbourne and we made the decision. We were applying for jobs. But Meg, sorry mate, got offered a job ex-officio and I applied for loads of jobs, didn’t get any and we were sat talking and I was like, Well, we can’t really go if I haven’t got a job and they will say, But let’s just go and just see what happens. And I was like, OK, cool, we’ll go. So we booked our flights. Kind of signed for an apartment over there. And then I think it was like a day before we went. I got a phone call back from someone like, Oh, you would be interested in interviewing you. So this phone interview and got the job and it was like it all worked out in the end kind of thing. So I flew off to Melbourne, worked there for probably eight months in private practise, just general check-ups, fill ins, all that kind of stuff. And that was that was not because that was like thrown in to this very expensive private dentistry where Mr. Jones walks in and you say, Oh, you need root canal on the ground, it’s going to cost you three thousand and they go, OK, they don’t even flinch. It’s completely normal. And that was bizarre when I kind of had two patients declining to have the crown on a route filled tooth because of the three charge in the UK to walk into that was really strange.

[00:10:49] They prioritise. They prioritise healthcare. I mean, dentistry as health care there and everyone sort of saves up for it, right? Yeah.

[00:10:55] Like a lot people, people take out good insurance policies and like jobs that come with good dental insurance are really desirable and it’s a completely different culture. And it’s also a little bit more like they take ownership for it. It’s like, hands up my fault, I need a root canal. Oh, well, it’s going to cost me a lot. I knew that.

[00:11:17] Yeah. And you didn’t have like trepidation first day of treating patients over there, the whole different mindset. Yeah, something jumped in to shit myself.

[00:11:26] Oh, you do. Oh, it was awful. I walked in day one and I was like, I don’t know what it was, but I asked the nurse for counsel and she was like, What’s that?

[00:11:34] I was like, like the patients in the

[00:11:36] Chair had black mouth open, numb cavity open, and I’m like,

[00:11:42] I don’t know something similar.

[00:11:45] And they did. They had an Australian equivalent in the end that we used.

[00:11:48] But yeah, that cliché that people say about being life being laid back over there and all is that. Is that real?

[00:11:56] I don’t think it’s laid back. I think they’re actually quite intense. But what they do, what they’re good at is work life balance. So they I think in this country, I think probably London, especially there’s a work life balance, has a tendency to slip too much towards work and not not enough towards life in Australia. You finish work at a decent time and then you have a life outside work. You don’t just go home, have you dinner? Go to bed to get up early the next day. To go to work, you’ll go to the beach, you’ll go to a bar, you know, over weekends you’ll get off and you’ll exercise and then you go for a. For breakfast, they just they don’t seem to work too hard is what I’m trying to say when they’re in work, but they’re intense people, kind of. They’re competitive and they are the fairly they’re not liberal politically on the whole and stuff. I wouldn’t say the laid back, but Work-Life Balance is really good. They almost like they aggressively chase their work-life balance. So that makes sense. Oh yeah.

[00:12:55] Oh, interesting. And was there any thought of staying on there?

[00:12:58] We had the conversation, but it’s just too far away, which is a ridiculous thing to say. You know, did you not realise that? But it feels a long way away when you’re there. The time difference is big. There are a couple little things that happened while I was away, like sick, like lost an A. and lost the family patents, stuff like that. And you felt completely out of it and just nowhere near what was going on. And also, you know, were quite family and friends orientated. So we’ve got look great families here, lovely group of friends, both of us. And it was kind of you’re making the decision, OK? The sunshine and the work life balance is brilliant. But if someone said to you, OK, would you like great weather or to spend time with your friends and family? That’s kind of what it ultimately boils down to for us. And, you know, no, no judgement for people who do move over there to stay because they might think, Well, we’re going to set up a great life for our kids and all this kind of stuff. And there’s obviously a hundred arguments either way. But for us, it came down to Do we want sunshine or do we want friends or family?

[00:14:02] So you got then I guess, the taste for private dentistry. Did you then come back and decide that say, I’m only going to do private

[00:14:10] Now, straight back, straight back to Wales, straight back to NHS? Did you? Yeah, I I had no desire to become a private dentist, to be a cosmetic dentist ever, right? No, I didn’t. Similar to what I said before, how I didn’t actively think against London. I never actively decided to not do it. But it just, you know, I hadn’t really given it much thought. We am the best thing about Australia was that it gave me the time to get a little bit better. So like straight into the NHS at home more and you’ve got 50 minutes. Forty five minutes booked, whatever it is, busy practise, you never have the time to, you never have enough time to get quick. If that makes sense is a bit of an oxymoron because you’re always you’re never comfortable doing it. And as soon as I went into that private system where I had loads of time and I was like slowly, slowly finding canals working my way down, then I then found that I could call my own and do a far better root canal in less time because I’d developed the skills first, and then the speed came afterwards. So that makes sense. I feel like the NHS makes you get quick before it makes you get good, whereas we should be trying to do the other.

[00:15:22] Really. Thank you. It’s very. Well, anyway, the know. So yeah, it came back to NHS. I four days a week in Wales, one day a week at practise, practise, practise at the time in Liverpool, which is a predominantly private practise. It’s got a big NHS list there and I was I was more doing more NHS than I was private there. So the story about I suppose that the first step was that my nurse said to me one morning, if you seen these composite veneers and I said, No, what are they? And she said, Show me, I don’t know who someone’s Instagram for before and after, like 10 combativeness or whatever it was. And I said, Oh, so what? Just buckle composite. This is like, Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, you want me to do it for you? She’s like, Come here? And I said, Yeah, I’ll do my lunchtime show. Ok, cool. So literally, we finished with a patient at half 12. She jumped in the chair an hour an hour. I thought it would take me through 10 teeth and the teeth were like crowded and twisted.

[00:16:21] Like it was. It was not. It was like a really hard case by half on and we’d been through shades and all that kinda stuff. She wanted the White House. She could buy half on. I had done her centrals and that was it, and I was like, Oh God, I’ve got a full afternoon of patients waiting for me now and we have to carry on. So she got up the chair. We did a full full afternoon of patients like every time I looked at issues just like these two bright white Bugs Bunny Centrals and like nothing else on the patients, must’ve been looking at us thinking, what the hell is wrong with her teeth? And then we say, I think I can’t believe we did it in gaps between patients or stayed late or something, but we managed to physically get the comms on the teeth and they looked rubbish. And I was like, Right, I need to learn how to do this. So I messaged my mate from uni saying, I’m thinking of doing a composite course, and I was like, OK, so me and Jack booked on came along. And yeah, the rest is history just went from there. It’s a

[00:17:23] Funny idea because that day, I remember that day, I remember you that day I do,

[00:17:29] Because you say that to everyone.

[00:17:31] No, no, no, no, no, no. Seriously, you clicked on that first day, but I remember that day for it being the most difficult hands on that we’d ever done. And even to today, the most difficult hands on we were the I think chicks was helping us, you know, chicks?

[00:17:47] No, it wasn’t. You’ve said this to me before it was that Dan Chong was there. I promise you, because I know chicks from uni chicks of chicks as a friend, and I promise you

[00:17:55] Would know if he was there. It was. It was done, definitely done. And we, our dad, was in the theatre. I was at the theatre.

[00:18:02] There was too. There was two in the theatre. One of them was the worst one ever. I’ve kind of I kind of put it out of my memory and nothing to do with the cause. But the facilities there was, there was there was a play going on when we got there and no staff at all like no one.

[00:18:19] So I don’t think that was my I think I think I must have been

[00:18:22] The second one. Yes, it went without a hitch, I’m sure. All right. So, so so

[00:18:29] You did the costume. And now I’m quite interested in this year because, you know, I actually mentioned this on the course. Sometimes as they look, some some people come on this course and go ahead and become, you know, super prolific composite guys. And then lots don’t lots, lots go on and don’t even start. I’m quite interested in, you know, what did you do? What was your first case? Did you come? Are you one of those cats that you know, comes comes to a course with the full intention of I’m going to start this properly and with a plan of how you’re going to go ahead. Is that you? Or, you know, what is it? What was it that you did that made you propel you into doing a lot of this work? I know it’s a long, you know, it’s a journey and so on, but give me those early things that you did from the course.

[00:19:11] Well, the first thing was to redo my nurses see what was a good start. Second thing, while I was on and I hadn’t even really thought about it, I had a patient, Nina, who she was. Basically, we were trying to whiten the teeth, but they were so sensitive and couldn’t do it and couldn’t get to shade that she wanted. And this that and the other. And she was in for like a review or something not long after it on the course. And I kind of said it wasn’t a first sorry tell a lie. One of my nurses friends, after I didn’t read it, my nurse’s teeth, one of her friends said, Oh, can I have that done? We’re like, Yeah, cool, we’ll do it. And then another one where kind of an existing patient of mine, we tried writing, couldn’t do it, couldn’t do it and there, but didn’t want traditional veneers because very scary and all that kind of stuff. So we did composites on her, and that was like the first one where I actually took a before and after really and posted it and I just posted it on my I wanted to do no. Dossey Dental posted it on their Instagram and I just shared it onto mine. And I think I did that like two or three times. And my brother said to me, You should set up a proper page for this. By the way, don’t just keep putting them on your your own page where you meet your mates are on you. And Meg at the same time was kind of saying the same thing. So I thought, OK, cool. So I set up a page and it just it grew and it started kind of very much because. People, I’m sure, will get on so-called social media, Instagram, but you tend to attract what you put out there. So because I’ve done a couple of sets of composite veneers, then people came in wanting combativeness and it became a little bit the composite veneer guy, which I didn’t want to

[00:20:44] Be literally telling me that your first two cases brought in more cases. That will happen.

[00:20:48] Yeah. Whoa. Well, to put into all you like, I don’t want that to sound like a dick thing to say. Because of those first three cases that I spoke about, two of them now have ceramic veneers. So I wasn’t exactly set in the world like.

[00:21:03] But you know, one thing is, look, we have we have to remember composite in the U.S., you know, our parent is in the U.S. The. Yeah. And they they teach composite. They’ve been teaching composite veneers for 30 years. But in the U.S., it’s kind of thought of as a transitional treatment, not not as definitive. Over here, we’ve kind of gone into, well, this is it. And it’s a bit worrying because, you know, we know it’s not going to last forever, but I wouldn’t I wouldn’t, you know, I wouldn’t think because those two are impossible. Maybe they weren’t great. Maybe wasn’t great. But OK, so you mentioned the social media, but you went and found your first case like that. Just like that straight off the course I’m going to do, I’m going to do something.

[00:21:45] Yeah. Well, it fell into my lap. I did the course because I copped up my nurses, so I had to redo hers. And then her friend said, they look amazing. Can I get mine done? You know? I mean, yeah. So that’s my top tip for anyone is to do a really crappy set of composites before you come

[00:22:01] On the course,

[00:22:02] And that will be your springboard when you’ve got to redo them.

[00:22:05] But you got you got to understand what I’m saying here, right? Because you’ve sent enough people to the course yourself, friends of yours. Yeah, they have all become big time composite guys. So what? What is it about one guy who does and one the guy does? I mean, we shouldn’t. We shouldn’t forget. You live in Liverpool,

[00:22:20] The world’s capital.

[00:22:21] Yeah, the world’s capital of cosmetic dentistry,

[00:22:24] Cosmetic dentistry, teeth whitening. Our biggest users always come from there. But you know, you know, I’m still interested in the mindset because you’re quite young. How old are

[00:22:33] You? Thirty one.

[00:22:36] Oh yeah. Not that you would have been better if you hadn’t said quite quite. You’re quite young.

[00:22:40] Yeah. And and you’d suddenly change from an NHS guy. Basically, you’re saying to a composite of an air guy out of the blue.

[00:22:49] Yeah, interesting. It happened slowly. It picked up, you know, it was a couple of years, I think. I think I set up my Instagram account maybe two and a half years ago, and I stopped the NHS probably 12 months ago

[00:23:03] As an estimate. Well, let’s listen to that.

[00:23:05] Maybe that’s what you’re saying. Maybe saying the sheer weight of patients coming to you from Instagram ended up meaning you had to do the work and you learnt on the job. On Tell Me about the Instagram thing because I watched your account go from 15000 to seventy thousand within the weekend or

[00:23:22] Something crazy,

[00:23:25] Crazy growth on that account. And anyone who hasn’t been there needs to have a quick look. Dr Matt Parsons. The amazing thing about the wonderful thing about is your face isn’t on it at all. Not a single picture of you on it. And so, you know, people like me who are camera shy people like me would always think, Well, it’s not for me, but you let the work, do do the talking. Tell me about your Instagram Story.

[00:23:48] And so I’m no, I am not a guru. Like, it has been just really good fortune and I don’t know why it did blow off one. I don’t know why it did. And I’ve asked myself and I’ve got some ideas and we spoke about this before, but I’ve got some ideas as to maybe what happened. But then other people have done similar things and it hasn’t happened, and I don’t know why. I don’t know what what the turning point is. I don’t know. But so yes, that’s what a few cases on started growing it. It started growing slowly. Sorry, should I say it’s not something that you go and grow yourself? It’s started to grow mainly with patients kind of shouting me out if you like, you know, and that that’s because I get asked this quite a lot by dentists about where the where do you start? Because I’m here with five followers and it just feels like this impossible mountain to climb to get it anywhere near the point where we want it to be. And the first thing is is ask your patient.

[00:24:44] We were all taught at uni that confidentiality is key and no one is ever going to want to know that they’ve had their teeth done. That’s not the case. Everyone wants everyone to know that they’ve had their teeth done. Maybe this is a Liverpool thing I don’t know, but I see exactly the same in Manchester and, you know, not a million miles away, but it’s a different city nonetheless. People want to tell everyone that they’ve had their teeth. It’s almost I don’t know if it’s a I don’t know what it is. I don’t know what it is. But they if you say to someone or by the way, tuck me in a selfie on Instagram, then that’s not you saying that’s not you being cheeky or anything like that. If you say, you know what, your smile looks really good. I’m proud to be associated with your smile. Please show it off. Please tell people it was me. It’s a compliment to the patient, you know what I mean? So that was how it I think the ball started.

[00:25:28] Roland, you say that’s all your patients.

[00:25:32] I probably do.

[00:25:33] Yeah, I think that if you’re happy with the work, yeah. And if I should say this and I haven’t said it too, that doesn’t mean that I don’t like your teeth. Probably bleep that one out as well. Maybe you don’t mind.

[00:25:47] No, I will probably say. I probably say it to everyone. And if not, if I don’t say it’s over on, then it’s not. I haven’t consciously not said it. It probably just sometimes doesn’t naturally flow into the conversation. But yeah, that was the big thing I found, and that was where all my patients came from. And on that alone, I was doing loads of this kind of work, and it was getting to a point where I was having to like this wasn’t an OK. I can’t wait to get rid of my NHS. This was a this is a ball like I can’t do the Udas that I’ve I need to do for this this year. Do you know what I mean? They like to leave a job, I basically have to leave my job in Wales because they had an NHS contract and I had to fulfil a certain number of days and these new patients coming through. I couldn’t do these treatments and keep up with the goods that I needed to do for that contract like it got in the way, which is a ridiculous thing to say. It was a lovely thing to get in the way, but it wasn’t like a let’s see how we can grow this and then the competition. So I spoke to K about this. K Kailash did a competition one time on Instagram.

[00:26:51] Kelly Solanki.

[00:26:52] Yeah, and I messaged him because I knew him through you guys. And I messaged him and I was like, Oh, Kate, it’s such a good idea. I’m going to completely rip you off. And he just sent back, you know, laughing faces go for it, brother kind of thing. And I did it and it just blew up. But it just I think we went from within a week. We went from about 5000 followers to about forty thousand followers, and I had not. I said to make literally like not even that long before we were talking about it. And I said to it, You know, the problem with reducing my NHS commitment and doing more of this kind of cosmetic stuff is that what if it doesn’t last forever? Whereas the job security in this, you know, patients are coming in and they’re getting a consulate within a couple of weeks and we’re doing the treatment a few weeks later. And this might not be sustainable. Who knows? I can’t completely bin off my bread and butter dentistry for this. And then that competition overnight just created a waiting list that then gave me the the security and allowed me to kind of jump in with both feet really into that kind of stuff.

[00:27:58] What was the competition, would you say?

[00:28:00] It was. I put it like a post on just saying. Smart composite smile makeover competition, you’ve got to like this post comment on this post tagging three friends and all of those friends that got to be following for your entry to count and pick your favourite smile from my page. Share it to your story and tuck me in. And I think that last bit was the one that no one else had done. Everyone else was doing. Share this post or as mine was, share your favourite smile. And by this stage, we had a few cases on there and it became a little bit self-selecting. So the the girl with the big, you know, massive hair in rollers and six inch long false eyelashes and big fake boobs and whatever else she’d like the one that had, you know, S-band very square composite. So she share that her story. But a lot of her followers would be into the same stuff she was and would resonate with that. Whereas the guy who maybe is a bit more like me or you, I don’t know, would maybe see a slightly more natural case and say, Oh, that’s I like that. I’m going to share that one. And his followers would be into the same kind of stuff. So it was a weird, like targeted marketing in terms of the style of the case in a weird kind of way. I don’t know. That’s one theory on why it went well.

[00:29:20] Ok, so then so then, you know, 20000, whatever new people are following you now. Did you also then follow up with with all the people who entered the competition and say, Look, you didn’t win, but lucky for you, 10 percent off or something?

[00:29:35] I had the idea. Yeah, no, I didn’t. I didn’t need to. That was my plan. It was when it blew up. I was kind of saying, Look, we’ve got all these new enquiries and this, that and the other and what you always you always think it’s a bit too good to be true. So I said, OK, you know what we’re going to do next is that exactly that offer, like maybe a little discount for everyone went to say, thanks for answering. And we just we were too busy

[00:29:59] And people started saying, Book me in

[00:30:01] Full stop. Yeah, we were booked up after that competition six months in advance for consults to consultations a day every day for six months. And the receptionists. Had a bloody heart attack because that Monday morning, the phone just was

[00:30:19] They just they couldn’t do the job, they couldn’t do the job. You all of a sudden you just had 40000 people.

[00:30:26] It’s OK, so not all of them wanted to come in for consultation, obviously some we’re trying to win the competition when I was looking through the messages and we ended up trying to respond to as many as we could. We’ve got like a little crack team together and started going through them all, and I reckon we had five thousand enquiries of people asking questions about booking in. And maybe that ended up being a thousand people who actually went all the way through and got in touch to book in like a thousand people calling a practise in a few days. And these receptionists have been like an NHS slash mixed practise receptionist for 30 years. They can book in a toothache appointment and book a check-up, and all of a sudden it. It was just carnage. It was absolute carnage. So we set off a like an online waiting list with a colleague of mine, Mark, and it all became a little bit more automated and we could just send out like 50 invites at a time. And it would it would slow it down. And then we move towards directly booking into the diary and all that kind of stuff. But we managed it in the end. But it was. It was. It was just crazy.

[00:31:25] And what’s the story now? If today I want to see Matt for composite veneers? When when will I actually get my composite veneers?

[00:31:32] And if you put your name on the waiting list right now, where are we? Well, first of all, not an easy thing to remember. Yeah, I reckon your consultation will probably be maybe May, June, so all of that will probably not be any treatment in like August. Bloody hell. Yeah, I cocked up the way in recently. I ah, I had a bad night, so I was looking through the diary and I realised that like this was only a couple of weeks ago. In January, there were no sorry. In February, there were like next to no consultations booked. And then I went into March and went on and then April and I was like, shit like the bubble’s burst and the patients aren’t here anymore.

[00:32:11] My job, I don’t have a job, and I

[00:32:17] Spoke to Mark because he’d set up this thing for me because that the system we used, we used Dental and Dental can only search for appointments in three month windows. So every time it book beyond three months, mark it after kind of manually go in and shift that three month window along a little bit. And I said to him, Look, is there a way you may be setting up so that I can do this because I feel bad bothering you all the time? And he says, Yeah, OK, I’ll do it. So he set off this a little slider for me to change, and when I logged in, it was set to 90 days, roughly three months. So I thought, OK, that’s when people can book up until that stage from now. So I put the slider up, it’s like a hundred and eighty or whatever it was. And thought, OK, that’s just going to allow people to buckle to six months in advance. But what I was actually telling Dental was don’t book anyone in for six months, like that’s when to start looking. So we had all these. Yeah, so but we were it now. We sent out a big mass email and we had to do it all manually. And we’ve just filled the diary for a little while now.

[00:33:11] But tell me about how things have changed in the process. I don’t mean in the actually the building, the composites, I mean in the process. What was it like coming to you then? And was it like now? Is it the same? Is it straight into a consult with you? Is it a TKO? Yeah, it’s actually in Liverpool.

[00:33:28] It’s the same. They come in, it’s a half hour consultation, a brief exam. You know, we’re not taking photos. We’re not taking scans. It’s not a big, comprehensive thing. It’s it’s it’s a brief exam and a chat and move on from there, really. We I will put a training plan on with my nurse. We’ll email that out to the patient and they’ll contact us to book their appointments. So I work in Manchester, Ru, but we’ve had Xaba on here before. You know, Xavier, you know, Ru Dental. That is slick. Like that is a real, well-oiled machine. And that’s a that’s a different system. That is the patient comes in and they have, you know, time with the CTO. Then we’ll come in and they’ll see me. And by then, all the photos will already be taken and then they’ll go back to the TKO. Once we’ve maybe come up with a treatment plan and they’ll talk through the plan, they’ll go through consent to the book appointments. They’ll, you know, a heck of a lot more gets done on that, that first the first day that the patient walks through the door and it gives me time, you know, for example, let’s say they’re having some whitening done. I can. It gives me the time to take a quick scan and send it off to you guys at the consultation, which then saves an appointment afterwards and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, no, nothing. Nothing to live for, but I work in a different system in Manchester, but I think I don’t know. I’m inherently quite lazy, so I end up just going with what’s there and you make it work and it’s fine, and there are pros and cons of each way. And but we’ve not made everything like super streamlined and super slick or anything like it’s we don’t we don’t need to. It’s nice to enjoy it and just feel comfortable and work and. Talk your way through and meet nice people and look after them the best you can.

[00:35:07] Yeah, although it’s fraught, isn’t it, because you’ve got patients you don’t really know? It’s not like a normal Dental practise situation where you might have met the patient for three or four years going before you start a treatment plan and then you’ve got you’ve got wants rather than needs, which I’d much prefer once myself when I was a dentist, I said, love the idea of once I used to say to a patient, this feeling doesn’t need doing, but do you want to do

[00:35:32] It like a

[00:35:37] Picture of a stained composite? I just get off on it. I just love it.

[00:35:42] But you know, it’s seriously so

[00:35:46] I just love it. That idea, I, you know. We all understand this. This issues with cosmetic dentistry and all the issues that we all know about. But there was one part of it I really loved about it was that it almost much more honest in a way in so much as I take my car for a service. Guy says brakes need changing. I’ve got no idea whether they need changing or not, man. I mean, like, I’ve no idea. And so, you know, you need that feeling on that back to, OK, you know, there’s, you know, you’re a new dentist, and I was in a private practise for me in Kent. Yeah. So this very British place and I turn up, you need those two amalgams out. You know, there’s this look on the face. It says, Do I really? And I get it. I totally get it now. It actually made me go, go out and buy straight away and intro camera when I was an associate so I could show them. But the the idea of this doesn’t need doing, but do you want to really make just to make me very happy? I think a little buzz, a little dopamine rush when I make sure to say yes to that.

[00:36:51] And you’ve said that to me before, and I say, you don’t need to drink this drink. What do you want to see?

[00:36:59] You know so much?

[00:37:03] Do you remember that dinner we had on mini spa maker of that night?

[00:37:07] I was with Barry Terry Rogers? Yeah.

[00:37:12] I hope he’s I hope he’s listening. Derek from Australia. So, OK. The problems, the problems of treating new people. I mean, you do a nice bit on the spa makeover, but the difficulties of the patient who doesn’t know what they want.

[00:37:28] Yeah. So I think to two things what you said then first of all, I completely agree that the cosmetic stuff is it’s nice that my favourite thing about my job is that my patients want to be there as a dentist. You get told every day, multiple times, I don’t want to be here, I don’t want you to do this. And as a dentist, you don’t want to do it, your root treat. And so on top of seven and you don’t want to do it and they don’t want you to do it, but you’ve just got to sit there and get it done and it’s crap. Whereas in this, it’s doing treatment that, well, I don’t the dentist love doing it, but I didn’t. This is like patients. I’ve, you know, I’ve been so excited for this. I’ve been looking forward to this. I can’t wait. It’s like Christmas and I’m doing work that I like on them, and I know that they’re going to smile and be happy at the end rather than, oh, that was an ordeal, you know, it’s just a positive, positive day. It’s a nice, nice atmosphere. And then the second thing about about kind of that trust is I’ve I’ve gone full circle on that, you know, like I feel like, yes, I totally agree that as a GDP, especially before you built up that rapport, you get just a little hint of, you know, do I really, really need that? Because the last guy said it was fine. Are you sure you sure you’re not, you know, just need new wheels on your car? Is the old kind of thing that they say, isn’t it? When I first started doing this kind of work and get patients from Instagram, I had a I had a habit of of giving what they wanted.

[00:38:51] So I definitely tackled cases that would have been better with Ortho with composite or cases that would have been better with porcelain, with composite. And I didn’t do that out of any kind of malicious, you know, money grabbing or anything like that. It was I was too kind of too eager to keep that patient happy. I suppose. I didn’t have the confidence I would maybe say to to correct them. But like I say, with time that develops and gets better, doesn’t it? And now patients coming in who will be better treatment, treat it with something else. I’m quite comfortable saying, no, you know what comes? It’s not the right option here. Let’s look at X, Y or Z instead. And and you know what? It never, ever ruffles a patient’s feathers the wrong way. The overwhelming reaction is, you know what? Thanks so much for your honesty, because they’re they’re fully aware of the fact that they were walking in asking you for a something that was they were going to spend a few thousand pounds with you and and for you to turn on and say, No, do you know what? I don’t want to do that, so I don’t think it’s the right thing for you. There are some other options that it, you know, we worry that it’s going to be taken a certain way, but it’s not. It’s actually taking the opposite way in my experience.

[00:40:02] Well, it is. If you if you say, OK, don’t do the bonding, but just have some, just have some bleaching in a couple of edges. Yeah, but but sometimes it goes the other way, right? Sometimes you have to say to the patients. You can spend more than you’d have to spend with composite veneers. I think you’re right. I think I think there’s a level of confidence that comes with knowing your six months booked ahead, who comes it comes out in your voice that the patient can see, Look, this guy doesn’t need this work. You just you’re just saying it as it is.

[00:40:32] Yeah. And a lot of that is the patients. You know, there are there are so many better cosmetic dentists out there than me, but these patients are going to see me for one reason or another have decided that I’m the guy they want to see. So they’ve already decided that I like this guy. I trust this guy. I want him to look after my teeth. So you’ve got it’s not like new patients when when people talk about, beware of the new patient with no rapport, you do have a rapport because they’ve decided that they like you or the main thing about rapport is is trying to essentially for you to try and get to know your patient on what is right for them and for your patient to trust and get on with you. Now, that second part is already done because they’ve come in because they trust you and because, you know, so that lack of rapport in the traditional sense. I’ve not found it to be an issue genuinely. If anything, it’s the other way its patients come in and go, Oh, you know, you’ve got all these Instagram followers in a big way, unless so you must know your shit. So whatever you say, I completely get it. It’s like you’ve got the credentials to to say what? What is right for that patient? And that that can go on.

[00:41:43] That is then you’ve got to be really kind of. Hold yourself to a high professional standard there, because if you’ve got patients who are saying, tell me whatever money, no issue, you know, yeah, and you’ve got to turn around to them and say, Honestly, let’s whiten your teeth, and that’s what a little bit accomplished on two teeth, and I bet you’ll love them. You know, I mean, you’ve you’ve got to hold yourself to that in terms of the patients coming in. Yeah, the three types you’ve got, the the patient comes in. The Scouser, the stereotypical Scouser, you know, I am. I thought, you know, 10 composite veneers, please. I want the whiter shade you’ve got. I know my bottom teeth are bright yellow, but that doesn’t matter. I don’t mind if it’s a different, if it’s a different colour. Or we may took a composite veneers and I want them. I don’t want any any porcelain veneers so thrilled and I can’t afford them anyway, to be honest with you. So just 10 10 composite veneers the waist as she can and I want them to look like I’ve been to Turkey, but I just don’t want to go to Turkey and that patient. You go, OK, cool,

[00:42:44] We’ll book you in. You just give me a take off.

[00:42:47] On the other end of the spectrum is the guy who comes in with very specific, you know, I don’t like that this tooth, my overwrite three is slightly rotated. My upper left, too, is a little short. And I don’t like this amalgam filling that I can see in my in my four. And you go, OK, again, there’s a treatment plan. Let’s let’s not start going well. Have you thought about 20 veneers? Because if they’re telling you what they don’t like, just address what they don’t like and go down the route of the different ways of addressing those. It’s that middle ground that are really hard where they say they say things like, I want my teeth to look done, but not to done and white, but not to white and maybe a bit fake, but quite natural. And you’re like, I don’t know, you’re like just talking in riddles. I don’t I don’t really know where you are. And and that’s the only time I’ve been stung, not stung, but I’ve not got it. Necessarily quite right for the patient is where they’ve asked for natural. And we’ve gone, you know, quite often incisal and braziers and maybe a little bit of texture. And this, that and the other and the kind of they come back and they go, I feel like I’ve got like little gaps between the edges of my teeth and like, there’s like lines on the front of them and I’m like, Yeah, that’s natural teeth look like. And I, oh, no, I don’t like that. So it’s such a visual thing, and it’s so different from person to person that

[00:44:10] So what do you do? Do you get your portfolio out photos? Do you like?

[00:44:14] So what I do, I I start with, I’ve got a go to case. I won’t say what cases, but there’s one case I always go to and it’s like the whitest square respondents on my page and I show it to the patient. I say, Is this too much for you or do you think they look nice? And if they go, No, they look nice, I go, OK, you don’t want natural, you know? Yeah. And then I’ll kind of go down a couple from there and just try and get a bit of a bit of a picture, really and figure it out. But you know, if we’re talking about composite, then it’s OK because if you don’t get it right, you can change it. You can add, you can remove, you can soften, you can redo whatever porcelain you spend time with. The temporaries don’t, you know, get the temporaries perfect and ask in the lab to copy those so you don’t have to get it perfect in your head. As long as you’re ninety five percent of the way there, you can work on it together if you need to afterwards

[00:45:04] After your work. So beautiful. I mean, it’s interesting because it is, though it is. We use it’s funny. Enlighten if we’re trying to talk to someone who’s not a dentist and we’re trying to highlight something about smiles, it’s a standard thing across all the departments that we pull up Matty’s

[00:45:22] Page and then

[00:45:25] On the Zoom we share, that’s what a line angle is that

[00:45:29] I didn’t know that talked

[00:45:33] Everyone. We pull up Matty’s page or we want to like, point something out. If you translate Dental,

[00:45:38] Speak to something that’s copyrighted that enlightens. Had a good year. I’m going to come after you. You’ve got a few quid in the bank. I can get my hands on there.

[00:45:48] But when did you go from, you know, just, you know, putting those buckle composites on and to where we are today with this beautiful, beautiful work? Was there a moment where you felt like I’ve got it now? And what are the what are the key things? I mean, look like your case? As I said, the line angles are beautiful. You’ve got a whole podcast with jazzy Gulati on this right right angles you. The line angles are beautiful, the symmetry and yet very natural overall, especially considering you live in Liverpool.

[00:46:18] The work now because people don’t realise

[00:46:21] People, people do not get the how white Liverpool people want their teeth and you know, people don’t get it. If you don’t, if you don’t know, you don’t, you don’t know for sure. But when did you get that moment of I can do this and what are the key things you look for when you’re doing a smile? Where do you start? How do you make sure what are the key sort of milestones of a smile

[00:46:41] That make it so nice? Well, it’s kind of easy to say, first of all, because I certainly don’t feel like that about my own work. I’m quite, I think, self-critical and always look into. I’ll always look at the case and spot something. I’m like, Damn, I wish I’d seen that and thought about, of course. But in terms of that self, is it self-actualisation? They call it where you think I’ve got this? I feel like I. I drop in and out of it. I kind of I’ll do a case and I’ll be like. That went really well, that’s good, that’s good, like, I’m happy with that. And then I can look back at that case three weeks later and go, That’s shite. That is awful. Why have it on that? Why haven’t it or not? And it’s just ebbs and flows, and some cases go well in some cases don’t don’t go so well. Well, one thing obviously never forget that Instagrams a highlights reel. You know, you’re only seeing the ones that’s gone. Well, there are there are cases that don’t go great and we need to tweak and make changes to. I think, you know, now it all becomes quite second nature. The first time you access a molar, you are consciously thinking about where these canals are, whereas eventually you just drill your access cavity and there’s the canal so you don’t think about it. So consciously going back to when I used to, like, go through the steps in my mind, it’s coming round to the front of the patient often, is what I’d say.

[00:48:01] We sit behind upside down until a little bit of an angle and we are always counting mid lines and incisal planes and all that kind of stuff. So sit in the patient corner on the front, make a little tweak here or there and set in that kind of the incisal upside down T. I call it so across your psychology to be centrals and that centreline, once that is kind of set to the face, the rest of it flows quite nicely from there. All the things that I’m kind of looking for while I’m while I’m doing it, line angles on laterals. They for me got easy light angles on centrals and on laterals make or break a case and having the flow of the lateral. The lateral wants to look like it joins the central to the canine. You know, it shouldn’t look like for central incisors and then a canine. The lateral should should kind of. It should just transition from the one to the three, and it should kind of curve up this the Leon and kind of exaggerate. Yeah, exactly. And it and it should kind of curve up just as the kind of the angle, the kind of the tip of the three comes down and out and and that flow from one to two to three. For me, that’s what like I look at and think, is that quite right? Is it not?

[00:49:18] Do you do the thing that Dipesh teaches about having the three at the slightly darker shade?

[00:49:24] I try and avoid doing anything that Dipesh teaches, to be honest with you, because it’s

[00:49:28] Really it’s

[00:49:29] Never really stopped me in good stead. No, no,

[00:49:32] I did that once

[00:49:33] Or twice, and it made no difference.

[00:49:36] So but you know that headlight effect people talk about?

[00:49:38] Yeah, no. So what? I’ve learnt the hard way in terms of longevity of composites. There’s there’s three things. Number one is make sure you sandblast before you edge because there is plaque and there is tartar and calculus on these teeth, especially like the medial area of a two and stuff like that. So get all that off and you’ll be amazed how much cleaner your etch look. Your pattern looks if you’ve cleaned it properly. Second thing is cure through glycerine, because with the best will in the world, we are not going to polish every millimetre of composite that’s in that contact point. We don’t we can’t do that without creating diasporans everywhere. So if you’re leavin on cured resin in your contact points that the patients then going to go away and stay in and discover, that’s when you get that into proximal staining quite quickly. What the third thing is, keep it thin. And Andy, Andy told me that he’s big on it. The thinner you keep them, the better they look for for longer than much easier to clean. You don’t get those dark into proximal areas and stuff like that.

[00:50:41] And you also get everything looks a lot more natural because you get that slight colour gradient of the tooth shining through. You know, you get that richness. Yeah, exactly. You get a little bit less warm at the tip, a little bit warmer up at the neck. And the kind of the carry on from that is that you then naturally get the canines looking a little bit yellow than the ones and the twos, and you’ve not had to do anything to achieve that. It’s just the natural curvature of the teeth comes through your composite when you keep it really nice and thin. So I did, I did do it. I did it. At first, I couldn’t tell it. There were different shades by the time I’d done them, because, you know, by the time you’ve got a lip in the way and you get the shine through and the different thicknesses and this on the other, they just look the same to me and patient never said anything. I thought, Oh, what’s the point? It’s just slightly more complexity that feeling.

[00:51:25] How long does it take you to do six eight teeth,

[00:51:28] Eight teeth now, or probably book two and a half hours

[00:51:32] At the end of that two and a half hours? You’re just tired? Or are you not?

[00:51:35] I mean, not anymore. I used to be. I used to be wrecked. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:51:39] So what I was going to say was at the end of that long appointment, it’s almost like you’re so spent that you then bring them back in for four for sort of refinements or no, is it done?

[00:51:51] No, it’s it’s done. I’ve had refinements once or twice where some cases are hard and you’re struggling and you get into the engineering at the time so far. But I’d say it’s maybe. I can count on one hand at the time that people have come back for planned refinements and that patients come back who have wanted to make changes, and that’s absolutely fine. But in terms of me sitting there, I can go in right. We’re nearly there. I’ll get you back in a few times.

[00:52:14] So, so do you now now it’s become so sort of second nature. A. McLain talks about it as almost like meditative when he said it. I couldn’t believe you were saying

[00:52:26] Because,

[00:52:27] You know, when I was a dentist, I know if I was never so comfortable that it was meditation. Do you find that at that point now?

[00:52:35] Yeah, I love it. It’s it’s my it’s like my chill time in my day. If I’ve got composite bond, then it whether it’s edge bonding, not funny. I do a lot more edge pollen than I do composite veneers. And that especially is just so nice to do. It’s just yeah. Whereas on the on the Nash it used to be, if I had a big block of check-ups, I think sound I can switch off now and just get through these check ups. Now the consultations are where there now. I’m tired if I’ve done a few consultations in a row

[00:53:07] With some other clinical tips. What are you? What are your tips on diets to make closure?

[00:53:12] Dysnomia closure? So I do it. Everyone does it differently. I’m a free hand kind of person. I don’t love matrices. I don’t love beauty indices. I prefer to just build it as best I can. So with a diastole pick where you want your contact point to be, if you’ve got to Centrals and they’re the same with each and you’ve got a two mil gap, then you want to add one meal to the meat of each central. However, let’s say you’re bond in two to two or three to three, and let’s say that there’s a space between upper left one or two, but there isn’t one between upper right one and operate two. Then you want to close that Midland Estimer off the upper right one and increase the width of the upper left one decilitre, then close the gap. So then you’ve got the. Does that make sense? Kind of always plan your spacing. You don’t have to close every gap evenly off of each tooth. I will build freehand a palatal wall with strong composite hybrid composite. I will then put Peaty and always do it from the plate. Ok, that’s a top tip. Close distance from the palatal because otherwise you come from the first thing.

[00:54:20] You’re looking at the teeth and you’re right, I’m going to close this. I’m going to shove some CompStat on you shove it on and then you come. You’re kind of your path of insertion, if you like is from the labial and then you do it. It looks lovely and you look in the mirror and you’ve got this like weird contact point where they kind of come and meet labile and then drop back in. You’ve got a big gap because you can sort of plate them. Yeah, yeah. So kind of your first thing, get your mirror out and close them from the palatal and then build forward off that. And then you get a much nicer contact point and everything else, and I’ll build it from the palatal off one to get my centreline right. Get it level. I’ll put you over that and do exactly the same off the other tooth and I’ll take my feet off and then I don’t have a diamond to close anymore. And then it becomes a little bit of microfilm or whatever it is enamel composite, which which which

[00:55:07] Which matrix

[00:55:10] Not. So I’ll build it and then put, you know, build it, then put Peterffy over it and then build the other one, but only almost like a free hand plate or shell, I suppose. And then I’ll use like a mile or pull to then do the labial three quarters.

[00:55:24] You literally use your thumb for the for that plate or show what you use one of those tall VM or instrumental.

[00:55:31] Sometimes I use a finger, but yeah, I think finger or thumb one of the two.

[00:55:37] Which makes it all go then

[00:55:41] To be ashamed of you, because the work is great, you know, we teach place composite with your thumb. The final layer.

[00:55:51] But this is why I always feel like a bit a bit of a fraud talk on things like this because I don’t I don’t feel like I. I kind of just wing it and make it all. But I know that what I do isn’t the gold standard, but it works for me. And that’s a big take home point is that just know because someone whose work is great does it one way. There’s a really good chance that that won’t work for you because your brains don’t work in the same way. Me and Jack, my colleague and friend who you know as well, our brains are completely different and I am kind of fiddly OCD a little bit at a time. Paint brushes little IPCA. He is like, Right, let me bug as much composite on as I can, and then I’ll spend three hours on it. Or do you know, Andy and Andy obviously was lucky enough to well enough to work with Manchester, and he has this composite on the tooth in like a like a minute and it’s cured. And then it’s just the rest of the equipment is shaping and polishing back and is his results are obviously unbelievable. So I think like, see what people do and see what feels natural to you and then just play with the different ways and see what works for your for your brain. Because we’re not all programmed like Depeche. If we were,

[00:57:03] We’d all be different. I get it. I get it. I get it. It’s interesting. Yeah, because we try to do this little series called the Mind Mini Tip, and that’s exactly what I was after. It was after those little tips that, you know, things that you do differently to everyone else. And and I know, you know, as a dentist, I know we all do things differently. But it was interesting when I said that to people kind of people find it difficult talking about it. I think

[00:57:29] It’s because I think we’re,

[00:57:31] You know, the biggest you said about, you know, like, how did you what made you develop clinically? And it was it was Instagram, you know, not ashamed to say at University of Instagram, seeing the work out there, visualising what you can achieve and being like Jesus, like I, you know, that is so much better than what I’m doing. I need to book my ideas up. Or, you know, I like that about that case. I’m going to try and do that in my next case. And that was where I learnt just seeing visual pictures. And that’s where I think maybe that trepidation in terms of giving a top tip comes from because your worry is this isn’t the status quo. You know, we all as dentists, we want to be in the herd, we want to be, you know, doing what everyone else is doing. And as soon as you put your neck out there a little bit, that’s when we feel like it’s a bit of a risk. And if everyone else is closed in disasters with bio clear, you don’t want to put your head above and go, I just shook my finger behind and pack it against PCF because you’re always like, Am I missing something here? It’s not like it’s the unknown or knowns. I remember when I when I first came out at uni, my first ever composite was on a on a central and I etched it and then I just put some composite on.

[00:58:33] I my trainer was sitting with me and he was like, Oh, like, you know, Bond, James Bond. And I was like, All right, OK, so I used it. And afterwards I was like, Well, I thought it was called Dental Bond, an agent that was just enamel. And that is like, you know, I’ve qualified as a dentist and I don’t know that I’ve got to use bond if I’m in and I’m like, It’s crazy, but I’m not ashamed to say it because we’ve all got these little black spots where we just missed one two minute sentence in a lecture one time. And like, I don’t know, no shame. So. And that’s the fear. I think, you know, I’m saying, yeah, just stick a finger behind and pocket that. But then someone who knows a lot more Dipesh might listen to that and go, Oh no, that’s terrible, because x y z will happen and I go, All right, OK, well, I won’t do that again. And that’s the thing is, you just you just don’t want to look like an idiot. Well, I know I’m an idiot. So it’s fine. I mean,

[00:59:23] The amazing thing

[00:59:24] Is the

[00:59:25] Amazing thing about the Dental courses. So many dentists come out of five years of dentistry without knowing what a line angle is. Yeah, I do. You know another? It was in the course somewhere,

[00:59:38] So I remember I I showed it

[00:59:41] To somewhere in morphology

[00:59:42] Or something. Yeah, I show my mate John, you know, John as well, John Carter, a picture of some

[00:59:47] Teeth that I’d done. And he said this way, this is years ago when we work together anyway. Yeah, the nice them lad. But you know, you just work on that line angle there. And I went, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I walked away and I thought, What is a line until I

[01:00:00] Haven’t got a clue. I don’t know what he’s talking about.

[01:00:04] And it was like when he described on the course it was a light bulb like, Oh, that’s what it is. So, yeah, exactly that. You know, we don’t all know everything.

[01:00:16] Never will we accepted it. So tell me this, did you? I remember when I was dentist, that was one thing that I used to do sort of on purpose to get, like you said, nurses want to feel like they’re doing a job for that patient. They’re doing something as far as patient care so as to get the nurse involved in much of it, you know, for. First of all, forehand Dental itself is is like that we were taught beforehand, it luckily the place I was, I was the part of the clinic that I used to work on was awful handed, but also things like for me, I’d get the nurse to choose shade. Sometimes I’d get the nurse to call core patients and say, Is everything okay? I’d make the tea for the nurse. I see this coming up in in on the group sometimes, and it’s.

[01:01:06] Do you know what, it’s really difficult because I’ve worked at a few places, I’ve seen really good management and I’ve seen lots of good management. And I think it will. I’ve got to be careful to not say the bad things because it’s a dig at someone which isn’t fair. The two practises that I work at now are both really, really well managed and well run. And you know what D’anticorps did as well? My practise was amazing. And you know, that was a big thing because Adrian was lovely. But Ravi was like, it is like disgustingly nice, like one of those people who you think is putting on, like pretending to be nice. And then the more you know, you’re like, Oh, geez, no, this guy is actually just this nice. And the nurses would just have done anything for him, like they just loved him. And Ravi now works at room with us as well, and everyone absolutely loves him. And don’t underestimate how important it is to like to just be nice. Just be lovely to people like if you’re barking orders and telling people and pulling people for chats that they don’t want to have and stuff like that, it’s got to be done.

[01:02:08] Sometimes, of course it has. But if the vast majority of the time when you’re able to be, if you’re just a nice human to people, then you get that two way respect and you also open up. You don’t want your nurses to be or your admins have to be like, Yes, sir, no, sir. Let me do whatever you say. That’s a terrible that is like the opposite of, you know, black box thinking and all that kind of stuff. You want that you want to turn around, you go, Do you know what might be in a deck there? Or actually, you did that case and you use that composite, but you should use that one. Do you know what I mean? You want them to be empowered to give that feedback? I think the traditional model of dentist or nurse down there is load of crap. And if you have dentists, a nurse doing different roles within the same ultimate aim, then you put yourselves on on that level and everything, just you get a lot more out of both of you and it works better for everyone.

[01:03:03] Yeah, you’re totally right, I mean, at the same time, there is an issue about if you were the owner, would you be able to be as friendly? I mean, I I am with with with my team, but then I’ve got.

[01:03:16] Yes. And this is the thing. I’m only I’m

[01:03:19] Only saying this. I’m like Georgie management, having never managed. So yeah, basically what that last 20 minutes of technical issues and everything just delete that because that is not a valid opinion on anything.

[01:03:36] Tell me about I’m going to move on to darker areas. It’s your speciality. Tell me about, yeah, tell me about your your worst day at work. Your most difficult patient.

[01:03:49] My worst mistake. My worst I to come to mind straightaway. The first one was and you know, it’s fresh from memory because it’s New Year’s Day to day New Year’s Day. A few years ago, I’d I hadn’t paid my registration. So 31st of December, I thought we were having a house party. That night, I was like, I’ll pay it later. I’ll pay later, pay later. At one point, logged in, put my card details in. Thought cool done right. Let’s carry on with the party and woke up the next morning just thought to log in and check. And it hadn’t gone through whether I’d come out of it too early or declined or whatever. I have no idea what happened, but I hadn’t paid it. And God, the worry that that feeling on New Year’s Day, because no one you can’t talk to anyone on New Year’s Day. So you’ve got this like twenty four hour silent treatment from everyone who knows any answer about how that are going to be able to work for the next three months. You go online, first thing you do Facebook forums searching for it and the stories people like Karl worked for six months. You have to reset these exams and these competencies and you’re like, Oh my God, I’ve got, I’ve got a family, I’ve got a mortgage to pay like we’ve got. We were getting married that year and oh, that was that was a really horrible day.

[01:05:01] But if anyone’s listening to this, well, it will be. It’ll be gone by then. But it was fine in the end. I was off the register for like five days, but now forever on my registration. It always says current registration period started in like five years after I graduated, which is really annoying. Oh, how funny. My worst on clinically was when I was not long out of itI, really, and this guy came in a classic NHS scenario. It lost pretty much the whole of the crown of his tooth and just wanted me to do something. And I was like, Oh, you know, couldn’t afford kind of elective no post and crown and all that kind of stuff. He’s like, Can you actually put a fill in on it? And I was like, I’ll try. So, you know, good old go and get the pin kit out, put a couple of pins in one of the pins lingual or whatever it was drilled a little pinhole. No problem. Got the pin drill. Put it in and I put my foot down to the pedal and they kind of they spin in and then they shear off the shank. So I put my foot down and it just the pin bit. The shark say it was the pin bay just disappeared and I was like,

[01:06:03] Uh, what was

[01:06:05] That? And you know, that like, plunge in your stomach and that sinking feeling in that heat and you go, Oh God, where’s this gone? I’m thinking in my head that’s gone into the pulp. This is a nightmare. What have I done? What I’ve ever done? Take a quick x ray. It’s come up the side. It’s gone through the tooth and the tooth into the PDL. Yeah, explain it. Tell the patient what happened, dad, understand any kind of, you know, he knew it was a bit of a last hope anyway. And blah blah blah. But I really like that affected my mental health for, I would say, a week. Like, I couldn’t stop thinking about that. And lastly, because it was so everything even tore, everything we do on a daily basis is to try and save the tooth and see the such precious little things that you bend over backwards and risk your neck and your sanity to save them. And then by just. Doing something wrong. I had just written this one off of the bin. It was a horrible feeling, really, really awful.

[01:07:00] I’ve been there. I perforated in in Dental school and I know what you mean. I still sometimes think about that moment, the blood coming through. But I still, I’m not going to let you off with that. That’s just too easy. What you just said. My.

[01:07:15] No, I’ve done absolutely loads. I heard you podcast. You did with a lady and a messenger afterwards. I’ve done exactly the same, you know, taking out the the lower, whizzy and the shank of the bird earnings on the patient. Yeah. So I was I was made. I’m done.

[01:07:28] Yeah, yeah, I’ve done them all, honestly.

[01:07:30] We could do another podcast. I was mid-end on a friend of mine and a colleague came in and said, Can you give me a hand with this tooth? And I was like, Yeah, OK, I’ll wait there. A second run through. I happily away bone, you know, whipped out whatever. And as soon as I kind of came out the corner of the mouth just like drooped open and I was like, I was.

[01:07:52] Thankfully, the nicest patient.

[01:07:53] I was like, Right, I’m so sorry. I’ve I’ve cut your lip a little bit whilst trying to get this out. A couple of stitches in it and we’ll see how it goes and hopefully it’ll be OK. And he’s like, cool. And he came back a few weeks later and it healed and fine and not really scarred or anything. So it wasn’t really a problem. Broken files, loads of them perforations, loads of them.

[01:08:12] Now, have you ever had a patient? You’ve done a small maker before and they sat, I like it and you can’t, you know, like, you have to start all over again. One of those?

[01:08:21] And. Ok. A few examples of this without naming names, I had a patient who said, I whatever you do not know it wasn’t that it wasn’t. I said, would you like your top two or three white and bottom teeth? And she said, No, I’d like to be the same shade and I’m like, OK, cool. So we shade marched and we did it, and it was really nice result, really nice result. And I was made off and she was happy, went home, spoke to boyfriend. I think if I remember correctly a little while ago now who said, Oh, they’re not very white, are they came back and said, Oh, I want the whiter. And. That was the first one that I can remember where it was like basically saying, I don’t like my teeth. So and which is fine. You know what, Polish and back a little bit didn’t didn’t take all the comps off sandblasted, put a lighter shade on fine don. Not not seen since ones where the patient up and gone, but I don’t know if I don’t know if I like them. And then there’s there’s this a.

[01:09:18] What’s your standard response, go live with them for a week, and then

[01:09:21] I say it’s the patient’s normal normally at the start of the appointment. It depends on the patient. You can pick your patients, some patients, you know that they’re going to just love them, you know, you know that this is some patients. You just get a bit of a sixth sense for it and often for those patients. I’ll say at the beginning, you know what? You’ve got high standards or very specific or you’re a bit funny about your teeth or whatever it might be. I’m not going to make any changes to these today. I’m going to put them to where I think is right. If you’re not sure of them, that’s OK. Don’t worry, we can always make changes. But what I don’t want to do is to essentially polish the back to your natural teeth, and it was a complete waste of time. So the rule is at the end of the day, we’re not making changes. But next week, this is the point with your name on it and we’ll make all the changes that you want. And the reason I do that is because I had a patient who essentially I did slip on the edge bond in three to three. She essentially made me polish them all back to enamel by saying, I don’t like that, but I don’t like that bit really, really particular with what she said. Lovely, lovely patient by the. We don’t have this line. Everything first. Really one of the nicest patients, but really particular and then kind of essentially got to a point where they looked exactly the same and then came back and was like, they look exactly the same. And I was like, Yeah, they do. So then we redid them. In the second time, I said, OK, I’m not making any changes today, but next time.

[01:10:35] And she came back and she did want to make a little tweaks to them, but it was a lot more controlled. And, you know, she knew a lot more what she wanted. And I’ve had patients a couple of times where I’ve had this chat and they’ve got they’ve gone OK and they’ve gone to the car. This was this and wants I can remember it was quite recent. And then she came back in and said, Honestly, I just feel like they are too square. I think it was. I said, OK, come in. Let’s at least soften them a little bit for you. So obviously there’s exceptions to every rule, aren’t there? Yeah, but you can’t. You just have to be really open with your patients and honest. And if it’s in composite fine, you know we can change to our heart’s content. It is. I do not mind spending the time doing this. You spent a lot of money and you see them. We’re not going to stop until the perfect for you, so you let me know what you want to do and I’ll do it. Porcelain is tricky, but then porcelain, you’ve got the whole you do a try and first you’ve had the temporaries on, you’ve made the patient aware. You know what, if this isn’t quite right, this is a hell of a job to do it, so be a hundred percent certain with me that these are right for you. You’ve gone through a lot more words. Composite, it’s a bit more, you know, let me do what I think is right for you, and then you let me know what you want, what you want to tweak.

[01:11:46] But you’re a super confident guy. But I mean, do you do that, you agree. I mean, you are definitely super confident.

[01:11:56] I don’t. I don’t. I don’t feel it.

[01:11:59] Really, because some of the things you say, you know, it sounds like so simple the way you say it, oh, it’s got to be just got to be yourself. You know, a lot of people find difficulty, you know, with that that simple notion of just being themselves with the patient, you know, with you. There’s a few things that with you come completely. Second, nature, for instance, that first time you lecture and I said to you, What other lectures have you given it? You said, it’s my first one. I was like, You were strutting around with a bottle of beer

[01:12:34] Like

[01:12:34] Like as if you own the stage where you know, you had the crowd laughing. You know, it was it was just brilliant. Brilliant performance. First time on the stage, first time. Where does the confidence come from? You’ve always been confident.

[01:12:51] I think in some ways I am confident in other ways I’m not. I don’t really know where it comes from, I suppose just. It’s the same thing. Maybe, you know, or chicken or the egg, we were confident kid who made the most of that or were you messing around with that? I don’t know. But then I’m no more confident than my brothers or my friends. I suppose it’s probably just it’s just the way, and it’s an impossible question for me to answer, really, because and this is why this is a problem. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t feel like I am particularly confident. If you’re telling me that I am, I trust your opinion and it’s a nice thing to hear and I’m grateful that you say it, but I don’t even know that I am, let alone give you a reason for why I am, if that makes sense.

[01:13:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but you remember being like, I don’t know, unsure of yourself. You seem so sure of yourself, you know, like for for a young guy, sometimes even when you’re not talking about teeth, you know, you seem so sure of yourself. Yeah.

[01:13:53] I don’t know. I mean,

[01:13:54] The president, you went for president of that society thing here. I wouldn’t have never have done that. Never, ever, ever have done it. So called.

[01:14:03] Well, why wouldn’t you have done?

[01:14:05] Because I’m like, if I go to a room, I’ll I’ll always stand on the side of the room. I won’t get into it. Contrary to what you might think, you know, at the end of day, you’ve got to remember we see each other at many somehow make it my event. Even even at my event, I’m quite shy. You believe it or not of meeting people, whereas you don’t seem that way. You don’t seem that way at all, man. You seem like you just fully confident. Have you ever done like drama? Have you done that?

[01:14:33] No. But. So like, do you think, could you pinpoint where that lack of confidence in certain issues come from? Or do you feel like that’s normal and other people are confident? Do you know what I mean? It’s difficult to when you know we’re all our own normal, so you can only really explain a reason behind something that’s a deviation from the following sense. Proper politician.

[01:14:57] It’s interesting. No, no. You’re right. You’re right. It’s interesting because because I don’t know if you listen to my episode with Alan, the Cornish dentist, I did. I said the same thing to him, and he basically said the same thing that you’re saying. It’s like you’re saying, doesn’t realise he’s confident. And then when I pushed him on it, he kind of went well, I guess, team sports or whatever. Then and then he got got back in touch with me the next day and he said, Oh, now now I’ve been thinking about times in my life and and now maybe, maybe it is very amicable for the guy. I don’t know.

[01:15:29] Guess? Is this what therapy is like? I have a love island. I’ll seek some 50000 is the guy. He’s such a nice guy, I suppose, because I suppose my

[01:15:40] Parents are fairly confident. My friends are confident and it’s just what

[01:15:45] Are your parents to do? And I ask you this.

[01:15:47] My dad is well. He was trained as an electrician and he’s kind of a project manager now. And my mom is a teaching assistant as a teaching assistant.

[01:16:01] So teaching assistant, did you? Did she ever teach in a school that you were at?

[01:16:05] No, she only started doing that. She she used to work as though she was a cashier in a bank, and then she had me stop working, kind of, you know, stay at home, mom until she worked part time. She did like Saturdays in the bank. I think I remember when I was a kid, but, you know, mainly at home. And then when my little brother, because there’s a big age gap between me and Josh, my my second brother when he started primary school and she had no more kids at home during the day. That’s when she took a job at his primary school. So her first job was like in a classroom with him. And she’s kind of she’s in a different school now, but. And that’s when it started,

[01:16:41] And the needs of your brothers, consider dentistry,

[01:16:44] Though, purely like. Probably out of stubbornness more than anything, so Mike Mike’s a doctor might is his GP training now and when he was writing his personal statement and all that kind of stuff, I was like, Well, you know, have you not thought about that six hours in what would have been like, second year Dental school? And he was like, No, I’m not doing the same as you kind of thing. I want to do medicine. I’m just going to go the opposite way. And now that me and my kids do medicine and dentistry kind of the health, if you like. Josh is Josh is like, Well, I’m not doing anything like that. I’m going to do law. So now Joshua Leaders doing law and of course, the barista. So it’s probably, probably a bit stubbornness, but also quite quite different people. I was always like little hands on things in health and like as a young kid, it was always painting and drawing and then up to like GCSE, I did after GCSE. I did like woodwork GCSE, and they were the subjects where I really enjoyed them and I was like, not truly good at them. And I just got on well in those classes and it didn’t really feel like school to me, whereas Mike was interesting. Mike Mike hated all that kind of stuff like his handwriting. That’s why he’s such a good doctor. His handwriting looks like a spider’s just run across the page with ink on its legs.

[01:17:50] How interesting do you say that man? Because so often, you know, getting into a deep conversation with Dipesh? And he keeps going back to woodwork at school as as as one of the key things. You know, it’s so

[01:18:04] Transferable in terms of that kind of that three dimensional spatial awareness creating something with your hands, isn’t it? And it’s different to, you know, like woodwork, especially like that is the one that I feel most similar to from school, not painting or anything like that. That’s two dimensions. You’re not thinking about things from different angles, not like making models where you just follow an instructions and remember the classic like you have to take air fix models to you, interview

[01:18:31] This stupid thing and

[01:18:34] Detail. It was like, Right, I’ve got a piece of wood and I’ve got a saw and a chisel and a file and and I want to make this piece of wood look like that. And it’s kind of the same. You’ve got a blob of composite and you want to make it look like that.

[01:18:46] Let’s look at what you reckon you’re going to be in five years time, you’re going to have a practise, we’re going to do. What’s the future look like for you? Did you like the taste of teaching that you’ve had so far?

[01:18:58] Um, honestly, I don’t really know, because if you’d have asked me five years ago where I’ll be now, it’s nowhere near. What I’m doing now. It was never a conscious decision, and I’m I’m kind of I’m I’m so sorry, I’m just dodging your questions. This is sort of horrible. But no, not actually. I will answer it. But if I decide, OK, in five years, I want to be XYZ at the risk in my mind then, is that I pass up other opportunities and other avenues that are open and all the things that I enjoy that I didn’t expect to enjoy because this is my goal. You know what I mean? Whereas if you just kind of almost say, I’m going to take one step at a time and each of those steps, I’m going to make the right step based on the information that I have, you’ll end up in the right place for you. And it will happen naturally and then you won’t end all kind of the tortured the guy who should have been and ended on test, but went down the route of Prav since then and always wishes he’d been done so that the dentist who wishes he’d been a doctor kind of thing because you, you don’t me with you.

[01:20:02] Let me

[01:20:02] Make sure. Let me make sure I’m understanding you clearly here. You’re not saying that there is a five year plan that you’re not sharing with us because you don’t want to disappoint us, the audience. You’re not saying that there is no five year plan.

[01:20:15] There is no five year plan. There are things that I know. There are things I love doing. So for example, teaching, yeah, I love that. You know, I’m very much helping Dipesh on your course, which is absolutely which is the way it should be and what I really enjoy it, and I really love that little light bulb moment or when, you know, because I think, yeah, we’re all going to which I love that. I love that side of things. I love helping people I love, I love. My favourite is messages on Instagram. Like, You know what? I listen to your podcast with jazz, and I’ve done this case and they’ll send me a photo and they’ll be like, my line angles are way better. And I’m like, Yes, I love that. That is a cool thing. So I really like teaching and feeling really good feeling. I think business ownership practise ownership is definitely a way to go, but I don’t necessarily know if I want to go and set up a squat on my own kind of thing because I feel like dentistry as a hobby. I’m really, really lucky in that I don’t feel like I’m going to work. I feel like I’m going to do something that I really like doing.

[01:21:17] And my worry, if I set up a practise with all the stress and everything that comes with it is that I would maybe detract from that if I was having to focus more on other things that I didn’t feel as passionately about. Also, you’ve got, you know, what’s your why? Why are you doing that? I love my job. I earn enough money to live a lovely life, and I come home when I forget about work. And like, we’re talking before about being on a level with the nurses rather than having to kind of manage things differently. I like that. I go into work and the nurse and my friends and and reception of my friends and the other dentist are my friends, and I know it’s a lovely, lovely place to be in. So practise ownership. It feels like the right thing to do because I do enjoy the idea of like maybe setting protocols in place and watching something grow and everything else. But maybe it’s a bit of a middle ground like in a partnership with the right people or that kind of thing. I don’t I don’t.

[01:22:10] Do you do any back teeth at all?

[01:22:13] Try and avoid them. Not out of like snobbery, I just really don’t like them. Like, I hate asking patients to open a bit wider. My and I’ve got really fat fingers like proper sausage fingers and like doing back teeth isn’t suited to me. Yeah. So what? I will do them, I’ll do them. You need a bit of variety.

[01:22:32] Don’t you know what I was going to say was like, you know, for someone of your age to be in the position you’re in, it would be really not sort of self-aware to not sort of appreciate, you know, be thankful. Have gratitude for for where you’ve landed, you know, you. Yeah, and I don’t want to make it sound like it’s luck only. But but I, you know, it is like you complete look, but it’s not. It is what everything is like. Everything is like if you to look at it that way. But I’m. My point is that you’ve managed to get yourself quite quickly, quite early on in your career, in a situation that most people would be really happy to be in. I mean, I know I would if when I was a dentist, if you told me you would only treat front teeth, there probably would be no enlightened right now.

[01:23:22] I just I’d just be doing that.

[01:23:23] I’d be treating front teeth as it ended. That said, that said, even this will become boring. You know, most jobs become boring. You know, it’s a weird thing to say because dentistry such a personal thing, it’s like saying you’re going to get bored of it means that you’re going to get bored of humans, which is unlikely. But the future, the kind of guy that you are, the confidence that you have and and the outside the box thinking, I know that you do. And when we discussing the next version of Enlightened and you come out with something and I’ve been I’ve been racking my brains for eight years about something.

[01:24:00] And then you’ll say something and saying, Oh yeah, that’s a good idea.

[01:24:05] Yeah, it would be a shame if you didn’t do something where you were the designer of the thing. You know what I mean?

[01:24:11] Yeah, I mean, and I would actually I would love that, but I would love exactly. Like you say, it’s a long career. And you know what’s funny? I was always like a staunch GSDP. Like, You know, are you going to specialise? Is the question everyone gets asked. My answer was, no, I don’t want to. I didn’t go and do an Saaho year because I knew that I didn’t want to do speciality training, so there was no benefit to me and know that kind of stuff. And then I’ve ended up essentially specialising in something that it’s not a specialism like a specialism specialism, but I’ve I’ve niche down really early, which is something that I never wanted to do. But I’m absolutely loving it. And I think the reason that I love it is because it’s happened naturally based on what I love doing. And if the next thing that comes along naturally falls into place, then I’ll probably love that as well. But I love my job at the minute, everything about it. So why would I consciously go, OK, this job? That’s great. Let’s stop this and let’s do this instead, because the grass is always greener. Yeah.

[01:25:04] So have you always been a content guy or you’re not even saying that you just think you’ve land on your feet and you want to enjoy it?

[01:25:11] And I think I’m a content guy generally. Yet you know what I am. And whereas before I was talking about the whole confidence thing almost saying this feels, you know, I don’t really even know that I am. This is something I do know that I’m a naturally very content person, which could also read as I’m a very lazy person and I’m happy to just do whatever’s going on at the time. But, you know, I’m kind of I’m happy with my lot and I’m really lucky for the people that I’ve got in my life and the lovely things have happened to me and the lovely job that I’m allowed to do and the great little baby that I’ve got downstairs and the brilliant wife and great family and great friends. And and they’re all a thousand times more important than whether or not my line angles are a bit shit on that last case. So I think keeping things in perspective has always got. I remember at my Dental School interview, I got asked, How would you cope with the pressure of the job? And I said something on the lines of, I don’t really know if it is pressure because, you know, pressure is like a fireman running into a building. And it’s not really pressure. It’s just teeth. With hindsight, what terrible answer. But that is like, that’s how I feel. It’s, you know, there’s no real. The stress and pressure is easier when you put into perspective and know what your actual important things are.

[01:26:27] Yeah, and you know, contentment, it’s it’s an undervalued thing. Somehow, it would sort of programmed to think that you’ve got to never be contented. You’ll never get anywhere, if you can. It’s a weird I don’t know if it’s like a city of London kind of, you know, that kind of business man who works all night, all day, all night. But contentment is so undervalued. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s all about being happy, right?

[01:26:51] Yeah. If you find contentment, drive success, like if you can find what makes you happy, then you’ll end up doing that and end up being successful. So like, look at Mini-SAR makeover. I just love coming back to that course because I just love being with you guys and it’s a fun weekend away and and I’m not doing it for like any personal gain or that kind of. You say the city of London, you know, let’s go here and let’s further our career and what’s in it for me. I just do it because I love it. But it has then naturally led onto me meeting some amazing dentists. Me learning loads more because I’m seeing the lectures again. Me. And you know, when you teach something, you learn it even better. So the benefits come without ever doing it because there’s benefits.

[01:27:34] Yeah, for sure. For sure. Let’s wrap it up. But it’s been. It’s been lovely to speak to you. You made a mockery of my final question.

[01:27:47] It’s just so you. The is now, buddy. You made a mockery of pace.

[01:27:55] Final question. It’s such a shit question, right? But let’s start with Travis. Final question. More darkness. Yeah, a little bit. You’re you’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest around you. What a three pieces of advice you’d give them.

[01:28:16] Right, you know what? Honestly, I listen to the podcast. And whenever I listen to these answers and I’ve never actually thought about what I’d say, which is ridiculous because I knew it was coming on. Three pieces of advice, I would say never lose sight of what the actual important things in life are like the the brand of your T-shirt or the make of your watch, that doesn’t really matter, like if the people around you. Well, if that note, you know, that’s actually not a fair thing to say, because for some people, they do take joy from that and that is absolutely fine as well, but don’t kind of conform to what someone else thinks is great. So if you’re surrounded by people who are dripping in Louis Vuitton and you’re not interested in it, don’t try and get your happiness from buying loads of Louis Vuitton to try and keep up with them. Find what? What makes you happy and stick with that? Number one number two is travel. Go in like, see the world. It’s a it’s a it’s a big old world and we’re in one little country, one little city, whatever it might be. You know, go and properly travel. Like, take a year out, two years out, kind of travel.

[01:29:30] Yeah. You know what I’d add to that travel young. Yes. Because travelling, travelling five star or whatever travelling old is not the same thing. Yeah, it’s it’s all well and good. I go, go and get a nice Thai food in Paquette or something. It’s not the same thing as when you get to pocket with a backpack aged 19. It’s a different situation altogether.

[01:29:52] And just like just rocking off in Peruvian towns who don’t speak any English, there’s one lady we were trying to order Pringles and she was stood there and she had a tube of Pringles behind her. And we were like Pringles, like points in Pringles, OK? And she was like, Yeah,

[01:30:10] Read Lost Inglis, really? Could you not have guessed that? Like, that sounds so similar. But yeah, like kind of go go to somewhere.

[01:30:20] It’s really uncomfortable with no money with either on your own or someone that you love and just enjoy it

[01:30:27] For those travels you did in South America. Was that totally different time to your Australia trip or did you? Was that all part of one thing?

[01:30:34] Yeah, no. We took like two years out, so we left. Yeah, we went to Australia and then. We came up to the UK like twenty two months later, something like.

[01:30:46] Well, yeah, it’s good.

[01:30:49] And I’ll address that one, but that’s bad third thing. Go and do the mini smile make over course, it’ll change your life.

[01:30:57] The news that such a loser? No, no, no. Stay away from Payman Langroudi on a night out. He is only going to be bad news.

[01:31:11] Are you ready? You ready to answer my fantasy dinner party question now that you’ve made a mockery of it? Three. Three guests that are alive. Fancy dinner party.

[01:31:22] My first one would be the guy who owns Red Bull.

[01:31:26] Shut up. My second will be your grandma in China. I think I was think I was lonely because I was I was listening today and I was thinking about it

[01:31:42] Today and I was struggling to narrow it down. I’d love to sit down for dinner with Dave Grohl, lead singer of the Foo Fighters. He’s just got such a like a what seems like a passion for life, and I’ve recently read his book and all that kind of stuff. John Lennon. I would love to hear his views on things and stuff like that. And Freddie Mercury. Oh, imagine that part

[01:32:08] Three, three musicians there, yeah. Oh, do you know what, right? You know, what could I get a hell of a party, right? Could I

[01:32:13] Cheat? Could I have a fourth? Because the fourth one would then be my wife? Because imagine going to that dinner party and then not having had anyone there? Yeah.

[01:32:23] Wink, there’s the brownie points. But imagine coming home from that dinner party

[01:32:31] And not having someone that was there with you that you could talk about it with.

[01:32:34] It’s interesting you say that. I mean, it’s a beautiful thing to say, but you know, when you travel alone, have you ever travelled alone? I went with Mike.

[01:32:42] No, I haven’t. Really haven’t. Really. I’ve been

[01:32:44] Little places. But OK, forget. Have you ever been to a restaurant alone?

[01:32:50] Yeah, yeah. I’ve eaten alone. I picked a loads. Yeah. Most nights, you know? Yeah, I actually

[01:32:59] I actually love going to a restaurant by myself. I think it’s one of my favourite things to do.

[01:33:04] Yeah, I did it.

[01:33:06] I mean, I’ve got to have headphones. I’ve got to have headphones to tell you, I’m not quite by myself, am I? I’m listening to something. I’m listening to a podcast or something. But I love being by myself sometimes, and that story of having someone to share it with. I have there’s been times where I’ve been on a just a simple thing made up, you know, I’ve been on a road where it just looks unbelievable. You know, going through even in the UK in between, you know, trying to go from your side of the country to the other side, there’s some there’s some hills, there are really beautiful. But. And that question of I’m looking at this thing and there’s no one here to share it with me has crossed. My mind has crossed my mind. Yeah, but there is a catharsis in it. As long you know, there’s a there’s something about, you know, not sharing with someone doing it on your own. There’s something about that. We’ve got we’ve got quite deep there, always. It’s been lovely to have you back. I look forward to seeing you look forward to seeing you in Newcastle.

[01:34:09] Lovely talking to you, mate, and I’ll I’ll see you in a couple of weeks. It’s really close.

[01:34:13] Yeah, yeah. Thank you. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole

[01:34:36] Thing and just a

[01:34:38] Huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value

[01:34:46] Out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] Patients don’t always know what they want, they they think they do, and they come in asking for something. And you know, it’s your job to actually educate them and actually show them that really what they’re asking for is not going to look right because you don’t want to start a treatment where inside something’s telling you all, you know. You know, you always want to have total confidence in what you’re doing from the very start, because again, from experience, the cases that I can think of where I’ve done what the patient wanted and actually it didn’t look right. And I knew from the start it wasn’t going to look right, but I almost wanted to do it for them, for them to say, Oh no, you were right.

[00:00:47] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:05] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Dr Tom Crawford Clarke onto the Dental Leaders podcast, kind of a series now where we’re doing, we did some sort of very established practise owner types. We’ve done some very young just out of university ties, but now a kind of a series. We just had Alan Bergin on as well kind of 10 years qualified in my world. That’s still a new boy. But 10 years out, you know, the kind of people who might be senior associates may be starting to think of opening their own places that that sort of bit in your career. Hi, Tom. Lovely to have

[00:01:40] You. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

[00:01:43] Tom, we normally start with back stories. I know you’re from a family of dentists. Your mum and your sister.

[00:01:50] Is that right? That’s right. Well, it goes back a bit further than that. So my my grandfather on my on, my dad’s side, he was the first dentist in the family. And I think what was amazing was that my mum, when she was three or four years old, actually used to see him as her dentist. And listen, did they know that, you know, 20 years later that they’d they’d be marrying the son of the dentist that she was seeing? So then my my mother is a dentist, her brother to my uncles, a dentist, his sons and my cousin is a dentist. And then I’ve got my older sister was a dentist and my younger sister actually was a dental nurse for for some time, she moved away from dentistry and and actually has come back, and she’s now my full time TCO, which is amazing.

[00:02:37] So was there ever any doubt that you were going to do dentistry or wouldn’t? When did you actually decide?

[00:02:42] Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I was 15 16 at school. I enjoyed sciences. I enjoyed sport. So I was doing biology, chemistry, maths and and P.E. for my A-levels. And it was a decision whether, you know, medicine, dentistry, physiotherapy. I was quite heavily involved in rowing at the time. So again, that was always also a consideration. Whether I been going professional probably wasn’t ever on the agenda, but whether I was actually going to take that more seriously. After I left school, my dad was in property and he sort of said at that time, Really, it’s not the area you want to go into. It’s very uncertain. And obviously we had a nice lifestyle growing up and my mum definitely had given me the information, shall we say, to choose dentistry as a career. And I certainly haven’t. I haven’t looked back whether I’d want my daughters to go into dentistry or not. I don’t know yet, but for me, it’s been a great profession so far, so I suppose it was always maybe it was in the blood, maybe it’s something in the water, you know? But yeah, dentistry was it was kind of it was kind of what I was set out to do. I think from the very start,

[00:03:51] You grew up in

[00:03:52] Winchester, in Worcester, where this is where the sauce comes from. No, no. It’s fine. No offence taken.

[00:04:01] So what were you like as a kid? Very sporty.

[00:04:05] I was very much into sports. I have, you know, pretty good, pretty good hand-eye coordination. My my foot to eye coordination wasn’t quite as good, so football was definitely not on the cards you to play a lot of rugby. And then I think at 14, my my rowing coach at the school sort of said to me, You know, you’re quite tall. Have you tried your tried your hand at rowing? And I hadn’t even really ever considered it, to be honest. And I still don’t know what made me go down to the first training session. And then, yeah, it just it just took off from there. So training twice a day, most days of the week. It definitely shaped me as a person because, you know, trying to balance that with school was quite tricky.

[00:04:51] And do you still run now?

[00:04:52] Do you know what? When I left school at 18, I was national champion. I think five or six years in a row I’d ride for Great Britain and went to Bristol University and never have sat sat in a boat again. So it’s still, you know, on certain mornings when the river is beautifully calm and the sun shining. I think to myself, Oh, I wouldn’t mind getting out on a boat, but it’s weird. I’ve almost convinced myself now I’d be terrible and I just couldn’t. I just couldn’t face it. So, yeah, not set, not set foot in a boat since

[00:05:28] I know what you mean, though, I used to play quite a lot of tennis when I was a kid, and the idea that I’m not going to be as good as I was back then breaks my heart. I still want to play anymore.

[00:05:39] The funny thing is, you know, you probably would be better than most people. But yeah, it’s funny what you tell yourself.

[00:05:47] So then you why Bristol was it, had you been there, you know? Did you have any connexion to the town?

[00:05:53] I didn’t have any connexion. I mean, I was from Worcester, so yeah, but yeah, it’s nearby and it’s an hour’s drive. And I’d applied. I think I applied to Manchester, Leeds, King’s, Cardiff and Birmingham. I think and obviously Bristol. And I just I just really liked it when when I went round, it was quite a small university. At that time, there was about 60 sixty or 70 to the year and it just had a great feel about it. And you know, the thought of being able to drive home at weekends and my washing was obviously at that time of my life, quite quite important. So, yeah, beautiful city.

[00:06:32] And and I can imagine as a student, it must be a wonderful place to study. I was in Cardiff and we used to go over sometimes and I go, I go regularly now, obviously. How were you as the Dental student? You took the class or not?

[00:06:47] I certainly wasn’t top. I hopefully wasn’t the very, very bottom I was very much in in the middle there. I mean, there was some ropey years maybe where I probably could have worked a little bit harder. But yeah, I definitely didn’t excel. I mean, there were certain areas where I remember being quite good at orthodontics, but it’s just weird, isn’t it? The the way that you’re measured is obviously how you perform in the exams. And I think if you have that kind of ability to learn for an exam and answer the questions correctly, you can be perceived as a better student than maybe the work the work you’d put in would imply. I’m sure I’m sure a few of the tutors or the teachers at Bristol probably were keen to see the back of me. But I said, I

[00:07:33] Mean, I’ve got an uncle to uncle, so dentist. But I wasn’t near them around the time they were in different countries. When you when you went into dental school with your mum and your sister and all that, you know your granddad, you said your grandfather. Yeah, so did you did you have an outlook on the kind of dentist you were going to be even as you were being in dental school? Is there pressure to improve on the generations?

[00:07:59] I don’t ask. It’s a good question. I don’t know. I don’t really ever felt that. I never felt there was pressure there. I think dentistry has changed so much. And certainly when my grandfather was a dentist to now, it’s it’s a different profession. You know, he it was just fully NHS, and he was telling me that, you know, they opened the practise and, you know, queues of people down like down the road to see them. And obviously, you know, he had a very good living. And I think for doing not doing very much, you didn’t have to do any advertising, for example, I think he was the only dentist in Worcester at the time. And obviously, my mother actually took over his practise, which is very nice. So obviously there was maybe a bit of me that thought I might go back there one day to to buy the practise of her. Or maybe, you know, join join with my sister. And I think there was a moment in my career a few years ago where I had that opportunity and it came became fairly obvious that my sister and I, as much as I love her dearly, we were never going to be able to to work together. So at least I now know that that was that was tried and tested and wasn’t going to work and

[00:09:09] Expand on that for me.

[00:09:10] So I don’t know how to put it in a nice way. I mean, I think we have a lot of respect for each other. Like I said after the new year, I think I think there’s always that element she was. She’s two years older, but she did a degree before dentistry, so she was. She’s technically a few years younger than me in a Dental kind of experience kind of way. But you know, she she, you know, brought the practise of my mother’s Dental partner at the time a few years back. So she had her foot in the door. And I think she very much felt it was her practise. And if I wanted to go in there and change things, it would, it would have to go through quite a lot of hurdles to to maybe make it past. And I think, you know, for me, I went into it thinking, Right, I’m going to change all of this, and I think it was partly my my problem. You know, I I probably kicked the business, if you like, because, you know, I had all these great ideas and my wife who works, works for the business now, you know, she had great ideas, and I think my sister just didn’t want it to change at that moment in time, which is absolutely fine. And I respect for that. But yeah, I think I think it was just it was just never, never going to work.

[00:10:16] So sometimes those things are best left. I mean, Prav, my co-host. He could easily have gone into business with his brother, but both of them, we had them on. Both of them said, now that whatever. And they both run super successful businesses of their own.

[00:10:33] Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:35] So it doesn’t, you know, I don’t think you have to beat yourself up about it, but I just wanted to know what the origin of that was. So go on qualified as a dentist. What do you do next?

[00:10:46] So I didn’t take a gap year. I mean, I’ve a July birth is I’m quite young for my academic year as well. So I think I was twenty two when I’d actually qualified as a as a dentist officially and obviously just got a VTE job. I was very fortunate. I got a very good vet. Trainer is a guy called Dinesh Fakey up in Redditch, so I moved home, which was convenient and I worked there for a year and I had a great time. He was a he’s actually a Royal College of Surgeons implant tutor, so I felt like I had a very good starting point to my career was very, very helpful. And I think it instilled in me, you know, or maybe gave me the I don’t know the idea of who I could become, I suppose looking at him. I was in admiration of him. Then finish it. And that’s when I took a job with our good friend Simon Childs, parents down in Staines. So I was there for a few years and it was nice, actually. Simon started working at the practise with his wife, Meghan, when I was still there. It was nice to have a stint working together and it was a busy NHS practise at that time. I think I was doing eight thousand ideas. It was. It was full on, but I think, you know, again, the NHS is amazing. It has to be there for people, but it allows dentists to actually get experience at that time.

[00:12:07] In your career where you don’t really know very much, you know, you just need to get your hands dirty and actually just do a lot of a lot of stuff because Bristol was very good. You started seeing patients in the second year, but you still didn’t really get a lot of hands on experience just because of various reasons. I’m sure you get less experience now, especially with all the issues with COVID, so it was just good to actually be in a busy practise and understand and learn what I did and didn’t like or what I wasn’t very good at. And I and I took the decision to do the Restorative Diploma at the Royal College of Surgeons quite early on. I think I was I don’t know whether I’m still am, but at the time I was the youngest person to to start that course and it was a full on course. It was financially a lot of money. I think it was twenty twenty five grand to do it. You had to write a two or three thousand word essay every month, you know, 50, 60 papers. But my goodness like that just gave me so much understanding at the basic knowledge of everything, you know, inclusion, especially that I still think it’s actually had a lot of influence on the jobs that I then got afterwards and I suppose the confidence in my own clinical decision making and treatment planning.

[00:13:18] So yeah. You studied with Simon as well, right?

[00:13:22] So he was at Bristol when I was at Bristol doing dentistry. He was doing pharmacology. So we had three years, three years together and it was funny. I met him on Freshers Day. We were literally a few doors down from each other in the same halls, and we’ve literally been best mates ever since. But yeah, then he went on to obviously do dentistry at King. So yeah, we had we had a few years together.

[00:13:46] So then after that, how I mean, it seems to me like, you know, I’m in the sort of the privileged position of being able to see you guys come through and watch your careers. And it seems to me like you sort of accelerated towards Harley Street. I mean, I remember when you qualified, I remember that time quite well. How did that happen so quick?

[00:14:08] Honestly, pay. I still look back, and I think, how on earth am I? Am I where you know, how am I? How am I here? It certainly was never a dream of mine, I suppose. Maybe I didn’t have. Maybe I didn’t think it was ever going to be possible. So why? Why dream? An impossible dream? But it all sort of happened by default. I think I was working at a time as an associate and it was a mixed list, and I and I just wanted to take the decision that I wanted to start to do implants. And at the time I started on the course with Dr Aselicon Osborne. Dr Corey Fran and and Zack Cannon. And obviously through that I met Matt Fazilka. So at the time my associate job, I wanted to sort of cut down my hours, stop the NHS side of it and put a bit more time into education. And and it just came about that I had a bit more time and physicians sort of said to me, Look, you know, by that point, I’d done four or five years of courses with her, and she just said, I’m sort of looking for a sort of semi associate, but I also, you know, I have space for you to rent a room from from me. And I sort of took the opportunity with both hands. I bought a very small list off of her of patients and started renting a room from her one day a week.

[00:15:32] And then it was almost like with sort of COVID. You were sort of forced into this position where you had a lot of time, especially through through the initial lockdown where we weren’t doing anything and my wife and. I who my wife has an advertising background, so she does a lot of my social media and we just put out that we’d be doing sort of free FaceTime consultations. And during that first lockdown, I think I spoke to about 400 people on consultations. Wow. And I basically just had a list of people to see and I then have now worked it up to, you know, being being there for four days a week with a pretty healthy waiting list. So it kind of just came about by default and I was very fortunate. I have a lot to thank and oh, positive for my career because, you know, without that initial opportunity, I certainly wouldn’t be where I am today. But yeah, it just it just it was a sort of fight or flight response, really. I had to make it work. I sort of, yeah, my associate job kind of. It wasn’t going the way I wanted it to, and that ended quite quickly. So through death, I just I just literally had time to kill and I had to make it work. So. So yeah, that’s where I am.

[00:16:45] So the arrangements are they is it literally you rent the room? What’s what’s the actual arrangement, isn’t it?

[00:16:51] That’s it. I just I just rent the room. And then she she obviously is very heavily focussed on implants and, you know, big, big cases. So any of the various

[00:17:01] Cross referral between you?

[00:17:03] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I’m obviously not at that level yet where there will ever be one day. I mean, again, the being at the practise, I get to spend as much time as I want with her on, you know, ridiculous cases where obviously a lot of dentists who she’s towards over the years referring to cases they can’t do. And you know, we’re talking serious, serious stuff, and I just don’t know whether I’ve ever got the balls to do that on my own isn’t what I get doing it when someone is there holding your hand and telling you what to do. But my goodness. Yeah.

[00:17:36] But but you are doing implants yourself as well.

[00:17:39] Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously through social media, yeah. If people do know of me, they know me for composite bonding and Invisalign. But you know that that does take up a vast majority of my work at the moment just because of the the referrals I’m getting and, you know, just the demographics of people that I see. Obviously, it’s very easy to market it on on social media because it always looks very nice. And you know, that’s that’s what gets the patients interested. I’ve not really understood how I can market the implant side of things because again, you know, not not seeing a tooth there, it doesn’t always look that sexy on Instagram, and obviously people do it very successfully, so I need to probably take some advice off them. But yeah, I don’t mark it for implant patients. I I do it by just by chance of patients who’ve come to see me do need implants or they know of someone that needs implants. So there’s a sort of internal referral there. But yeah, a lot of the cases I’m doing are with Physiol, So.

[00:18:35] So then you know, you said your wife has an advertising background. Does she spend most of her time working with you or does she do a different job as well?

[00:18:44] Well, she’s she’s got the very, very hard job of being a mother to two beautiful little girls. But no, she she she had 11 years in advertising. And you know, when I when I met her, she was working for a really very good firm and, you know, working on awesome accounts. She was sort of a global account director, but we had our first daughter and it just came to the realisation that she was working crazy hours. And if she went back to it, she was just not going to see the kids or the kid at that time. So I’m not the biggest fan of social media, but she is. So it was just, you know, a perfect harmony, shall we say. And and yeah, before that, I didn’t had it. I didn’t have any social media account and we started it together. And I mean, most, if not all, of my work comes through through Instagram.

[00:19:35] So did you any paid or is it organic?

[00:19:37] Do you know what we did? We did, we did there a few paid adverts. So, you know, it’s amazing the spend that you can have and the return on that spend, it’s it can be very successful. You know, you can spend £30 on an advert promoting it and you know, you could get 50 or 60 Leaders off that. But a lot of it is just, you know, now it’s just organic because again, I don’t post that much purely because we’ve literally got a two or three month waiting list to see people. So it’s almost like, you know what, almost what’s the point of posting?

[00:20:09] I know obviously a fantastic position to be in, huh?

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:15] You know, the I’d say, the majority of people that I come and see in the West End, maybe they’re booked if they’re lucky, two weeks ahead? Yeah, many of them less than that. Yeah. So that’s a really fantastic position to be in. What would you say, as I’m quite keen to hear it from from someone who’s not sort of a social media fan. What would you say is the secret to building up a page that actually converts patients? Because we have, you know, there’s plenty of people who do pages for dentists and then there’s people who do it very successfully for patients. What would you say is the key is as someone who’s not keen on it?

[00:20:56] Well, I mean, our pages, certainly for for patients, you know, with pretty much the prime purpose of getting patients to come in. So so I think for us, I’m always having to paraphrase my, my, my wife here, you know, it’s to make people see you as a person rather than a dentist and to paint the full picture because you know, when people are coming in to see you for what can potentially be life changing treatment, they they have to almost, you know, we have to know each other and to start treatment on a patient that you don’t know, it can sometimes end up in a sticky situation. So. So I think having that initial well, information for the patient to see you and to suss out whether they like you as a person is probably the most important thing that I think the social media can help with.

[00:21:50] Yeah, but what? But what are tips? What are tips? I mean, what? What have you done differently to get your? How many thousand followers have you got £15000?

[00:21:58] No, no, no. Do you think the thing is baked again? My wife wanted to get to 10K like last year, but we’re only on eight. And it’s funny because the number of the number of followers you have, it doesn’t seem to, you know, it might be. Yeah, it really isn’t. And I think it used to be, and it was almost like a kudos thing. Or, you know, how many followers have you got? But yeah, I mean, my my personal tips would be just again having having a wife who was a non dentist is very right because you’ve made the right person because I’m really not going to take much credit for it. You know, she she, but she sees teeth in a very different way that I see teeth, right? So, you know, I can be so proud of a case that I’ve literally bent bent over backwards. I’ve done everything in it, and for me, like the skill that’s gone into it. And she, you know, she will sometimes look at it and think, Well, so what have you done like? You know, what’s what’s the difference? Whereas other things where you just think, Well, that’s that’s a simple, you know, everybody can do that. And actually, you know, she’ll say that’s actually more impressive. So to have that kind of benchmark, I think, also also can help. So maybe maybe you need to get my wife on on the next podcast and she would help them.

[00:23:16] I mean, you make a brilliant point, though, because you know, the retracted view we love and it scares the hell out of patients, you know?

[00:23:25] Well, that’s a good point. I’m just, yeah, oh yes, my shots are key.

[00:23:30] Yeah. And and then, you know, the thing you were saying about making humanising you, I mean, if we talk about who, who’s the most someone like Rhona, who’s so popular on social with patients, she’s she’s kind of constantly talking to the camera, and I don’t follow that avidly, but she’s she’s she’s doing things which are non dentistry a lot of the time.

[00:23:55] Oh, oh, goodness, yeah. Yeah, she’s yeah, she’s a

[00:23:57] Celebrity commenting on, you know, new stories and this sort of thing. But look, I think it’s an important question because you’ve definitely done it successfully. And it’s it’s kind of a it’s a wonderful sort of case study for someone who you know you were doing one day a week lockdown hits, which is, you know, when at that point none of us knew what was going to happen next? And then you come out of it busy four days a week, waiting list in a matter of a year. And it’s it’s been a great year for a lot of people in dentistry. You know, I guess because of lockdown in a way, but it’s an important question. Because there’s a lot of people who who could benefit from that, especially now with the whole NHS story that we can see falling apart and a bunch of there must be a group of people who are already on the cusp of leaving the NHS, who are now going to say, Look, that’s it enough. And when you speak to people who are only in the NHS, they tend to have this view of private that it’s the same thing, but more expensive or the same. And I’m not even talking about the quality of the work, just the same thing, but more expensive. And it’s definitely not. And the thing that isn’t the same at all is the number of patients waiting to see you. So cracking that really is the key. How about tick tock? If you look to that

[00:25:20] And to be honest with you? So obviously, we’ve got a four month old baby at the moment. So are we? Yes, they got a three and a half year old and a four month old. And obviously our priority is has being slightly shifted towards towards the kids so slightly, just slightly. But, you know, next year, I think we’re going to we’re going to really push it and see, see what, see what we can make happen, basically. But the thing is, I I don’t know. Talking on camera, I’m happy to do it, but it takes a lot of time. Me planning and preparing what to say. It doesn’t always come naturally. I remember having some head shots taken and I genuinely hated it. You know, it’s just it’s not. It’s just not for me. I’d much rather be. Yeah, I mean, then generally, dentists feel comfortable in somebody’s mouth, right? So, you know, that’s our safe space. And, you know, put me in my Dental surgery in front of a patient. I’m, you know, that’s my that’s my arena, right? But take me out of that. It’s, you know, it’s a totally different experience. I mean, I’ve done a than a lecture recently, the ADYE, and I did it with Zieler. And it was, you know, to a room of three hundred dentists. And it was, you know, I don’t mind public speaking. I quite enjoy it, actually, but only one I’ve really prepared. So, you know, things like social media, I think because it’s so quick and you’ve got to just be I can’t imagine you will spend a week or two weeks preparing, you know, 30 second video, right? So it’s just going to come naturally. And just for me, it just doesn’t. And I don’t have any desire to try and make it become more natural. You know,

[00:26:59] I know what you mean. I mean, I think though you’ve got one has to think, what is what is the medium your best on? Because I’m just like you. I hate it when when there’s a camera and lights on, I’m just this other person. I literally hate it. And then at the same time, I break the balls of all my marketing people and say, Why do we make more more content and all of this? And they say, Well, why don’t you? But the strange thing is, for instance, on voice, I haven’t got a problem at all. I mean, I mean me and you can see each other right now because the platform, but the video isn’t going out. And as long as the video isn’t going out, I can scratch my back and, you know, move, you know, I’m awkward on camera, but it’s it’s it’s important to know what you’re, you know, be self aware of it. What is it? You’re good at? What is it? You’re not good at and you know you’ve got your wife there? I actually really love the page, dude. I was looking at it today. It’s a nice combination of before and afters and you know, pictures of you welcoming sort of celebrities. It’s all about the celebrity side, the sort of the influencer side is that was that something you went after, you know, in a in an organised way? Or how did that come about?

[00:28:10] Yeah, very much. I mean, again, my my wife can see the potential of it. It’s a running thing here, isn’t it? So obviously there is there is real potential there. We’ve worked with quite a few sort of influencers and, you know, some have literally brought in 50 plus patients of, you know, one case where you’ve done it free of charge. So it might be a sort of three grand investment, but you know, you’ve literally got hundreds back. And but it’s all about trying to work with the right right people. It’s not always been plain sailing like we’ve we’ve certainly had a few who we haven’t actually gone on to treat because they’ve, you know, just mess this around with appointments and it’s, you know, it’s never going to work if that’s how you start off. And that can be the same for just patients in general, right? You know, if the patient is failing to turn up, it’s kind of alarm bells. But but I think just trying to find people that fit with you and fit with your ethos and fit with your kind of personality type and just making sure that you’re getting the right demographic of patients and we get them to to send in their stats of who they follow, where the people live, what ages they are, because that has a big sort of impact on what you can get back. I mean, we’ve treated people with 300 and 400000 followers and not got a single patient. And you just think it’s actually the ones with a smaller group of. Followers like 30 to 60 K, it seems like they’re exactly more engaged and that the, you know, the people just I think, yeah, I think I think that is exactly it. It’s more engaged and they just will listen to what they’re saying. I think if they’re too big, it’s more. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know the ins and outs. You probably know more than me about it, to be honest.

[00:29:54] But I mean, we’re working on it on on our side. We bought a platform that you can check the influencers, check you know, where, you know, for instance, like the person with 400000 followers, maybe three hundred and forty thousand of them are in South America or whatever. That’s why, you know? But yeah, it’s another it’s another whole new area I find nowadays with marketing. You’re having to subsection marketing into lots of different sections and find, you know, different specialists in each one of those areas. And pretty soon, we’re going to have to start making everything in 360 for the Metaverse. Oh, let’s let’s get onto some of the clinical stuff. So you’ve you’ve done have you done all of that sort of digital smile design piece? Is that when a when a patient comes to you and says, Look, make my smile better? Yeah. Take me through. Take me through the process you run through with the patient. And you know, of course, we all do a certain number of things. But but what are you looking out for most?

[00:30:57] Well, I mean, the work the workflow for us is that they they get a virtual consult now with my with my treatment coordinator, Lydia, my my youngest sister. So. So that’s done beforehand so that she’s got a set of questions that she asked them. So we get a good idea of what they’re they’re looking for. And, you know, she gives them a range of costs as well, so they at least know what they’re looking at because again, there’s no point somebody coming in and seeing you when it’s out of their out of their budget or, you know, it just wasn’t the right fit. And I think because of Instagram and because the patients are coming through Instagram, they know that my my aim is for them to look supernatural. I want them to be walking around and people complimenting their teeth. Not or who’s your dentist like? You know what you had done? So, so the patients I see are generally asking for them. So when they do come in to see me, they’ve got all the information ahead of the appointment. And it’s really just for me to get to know them a bit better and truly understand why they’re having the treatment. Because yes, you know, so many people come in and say, I want, I want my smile to look perfect. But you know, it’s such a subjective term and just trying to get down to the nitty gritty of what it is they want. I think sometimes all the questions that I ask and the fact that I’m there just simply listening to them can sometimes get you into a bit of trouble because you’re almost giving them too much information and then they become almost too informed. And they, you know, they start telling you what they think they need. And sometimes certainly with the demographic of patients that I see on a Harley Street, you’ve almost got to just be careful, I think, with the amount of information you give them. And that’s just in my my experience.

[00:32:33] I’m an example of that. So you tell someone they’ve got a centre line shift and then they start obsessing on that.

[00:32:39] Exactly. That’s actually a brilliant example because, you know, a lot of my cases, I’m doing Invisalign on beforehand. And, you know, with the power of digital dentistry having a scanner, you know, the photograph. It is so amazing for us as dentists to actually be able to show these patients the problems and just inform and educate them. So it’s been, you know, I think we are very lucky to be in the era of dentistry that we’re in. But, you know, I want to give them the information because afterwards, if you hadn’t told them about the sensor line shift before and they noticed it afterwards, it’s your fault. Right. But then but then so you want to tell them beforehand, but then you don’t want them to get a, you know, a complex about it, right? Exactly. So it’s such a fine line. And I think the benefit of spending time and talking and listening and the consults are an hour when they come in to see me is that I think you build such a rapport and, you know, by using, you know, body language. And I’ve done so many courses on interactions and communication that you can suss out when, when, when is the best time to sort of give them the information, right, so that they they don’t react in a bad way? Because if you if you don’t know them very well and you jump in and oh God, your sense lines off, that’s obviously not going to go down too well. But if you’ve listened to them and you know, they’re not interested in that and you can kind of gently explain that, well, this is slightly off of your mind, slightly off. And there are studies to show that it can be up to four millimetres off as long as it’s, you know, parallel to your face, it doesn’t really matter. And I think that that obviously is the way to go to go about it. But I feel like I’ve lost track of the the question that you asked in the first.

[00:34:22] Well, so the process, the patient journey, you said they start off with the TKO. Yeah, on the virtual console, the TCO pretty much works out your your sister in law. Sister, sister, yeah, works out pretty much what they need and whether they’ve got budget.

[00:34:39] Yeah, I mean, I mean, it’s not it’s not so much, yes. I mean, they are they usually come in asking for something, right? So they usually are saying, I want in Beslan and constant violence. I know, I know that’s what time does, right? And the benefit of having Lydia there is that she’s had in Beslan. She’s had composite bonding with me. She’s had, you know, wisdom teeth. She’s had an implant with me. So she’s pretty much a walking, talking advertisement for me. So it’s, you know, that has been amazing having her on board. But yeah, she’s she’s just making sure that they they they know what I’m about and what I’m trying to achieve. And, you know, I’m not doing turkey teeth. And if they want that, it’s best not to come and see me, you know?

[00:35:17] So look, you’ve done the one art you’ve done the one hour consult at this point. Have you already gone into at the end of that consult if you got into what the plan is going to be or the stabilisation phase of what have you done? What what’s the patient leaving with?

[00:35:32] Say what the patient is leaving after that appointment is we’ve discussed their scan. So a digital scan, we’ve discussed their x rays and when I say discuss them, I’m showing them the x rays I’m showing them. This is the right and this is the left. This is the top of the bottom. These are sort of areas of black bits that I’ll go into later. So I’m just trying to give them a little bit of information, but I’m certainly not treatment planning anything because again, that can get you into a tricky situation when you’ve you’ve thought you’ve seen the problem, you’ve you’ve diagnosed what you think of the problem. And then later, on reflection, you know, it was only part of a bigger problem that you’ve missed and trying to crawl back from that is never a good position to be in. So I’m really just trying to get them to know me, me, to know them, give them a little bit of information, talk about the scan like I said, and I just follow it up with a with a sort of written treatment plan. And then then they get a phone call from from Lydia to discuss any questions if they want to come back in to see me for a complimentary chat, they can do. But usually people are, are, you know, going going ahead and then the next time we’re seeing them is just sort of maybe start starting baseline or see them for a mock up, for example. So, yeah,

[00:36:44] So you don’t you don’t do that thing where you sort of stabilise with some simple treatment and then then go for a full mouth approach? Or is it mainly a line bleach bond

[00:36:55] On honesty pay? At the moment, the demographic of patients I’m seeing are ninety nine percent of them are Dental fit. They have dentists, they’ve been seeing them for Dental. Yet the younger, you know, the 20 to thirties, mostly female. And if obviously clearly if they have dental issues, I’m obviously telling them that they need to get this done before we start anything. And honestly, I’m pushing them to go back to the dentist to get it done purely because I just don’t have the time to see them. And, you know, I’ve moved away from general dentistry, to be honest, although I have a small list of kind of Harley Street patients that I do too see for their general care. I just I just love the energy of somebody coming in and actually wanting to see you and actually wanting to have treatment done. I’ve never had that same same response. When you’ve told someone that they need a root canal, you know, so I’m I like to enjoy my time at work. I like to be in a happy place. And yeah, that was kind of the reasons why I’ve moved away from doing general dentistry. But yeah, I mean, obviously, if they need any stabilisation and they want me to do it, then we would do that and then start start their treatment. But like I said, just at the moment, the the patients that I’m seeing identity fit and they and they are just really in need of of cosmetic treatment.

[00:38:15] I mean, it’s nice to see on your page to the smiles are very natural and and I suppose it’s really nice to have a patient come to you and say, I’ve come to you because of how natural the smiles look on on your page. It’s the you started off on the right foot, haven’t you? Definitely. And when I think back to the days when I was a dentist and the number of times I used to after we used to have a 40 minute examination and I’d attempt to have the treatment plan written up at the end of that 40 minutes with very, you know, nowhere near your level of knowledge, I’m sure. And you know, it’s strange, isn’t it? Because most practise that’s what’s happening like ninety five percent ninety nine percent of dentists are having to treatment plan on the run on the go. Write all the notes, all of that stuff to happen at the same time, and you’re never going to be able to present to the patient properly in that most people don’t get 40 minutes either, right? Twenty. How how do you fit the sort of how do you square the circle of these Instagram align bleach blonde patients with physical work? And do you do? You know, you’re not. You’re not. You haven’t got access to those implant patients yet. Is that right?

[00:39:33] So, so what do you mean, am I am I doing implants on her patients?

[00:39:37] No, I mean, you know, you’ve got some implant skills. Yeah, are you? Are you able to use them?

[00:39:43] Use it? Definitely. So I mean,

[00:39:44] Is he doing a line bleach blonde?

[00:39:46] So I spend I spend three, three days doing that and I spend one day with Priscilla. So, you know, we’re literally doing block graft sinus lifts. You know, we’re doing x plants, full arches, you know, soft tissue grafting like it is. It’s very it’s a very different, very different day. And that’s why I love it so much. And I do think to myself, Gosh, I have a set of skills here that I’m not really using to their full advantage right now, but I just think, well, I’m actually pretty happy. Like right now, I’m pretty happy doing what I’m doing, and I think we can be so obsessed with always being better and doing doing new things and actually to be content. Right now, I’m just I’m actually just really, really happy in my, in my, you know, current situation. I almost just want to enjoy it for a little bit longer until I sort of start rocking the boat again and going on and going on a different direction. But no, I mean, I think the implant side of my of my work is maybe more the future, but who knows, you know, composite bonding is very much a I don’t know. I feel like it’s not so much a fad because I think it’s here to stay like it really is for me, the best course of treatment for a lot of patients who are thinking about cosmetics. And clearly, you know, having veneers done is is always an option that’s presented to them. But because they are young people, I don’t I don’t want to be cutting down teeth. So, you know, for me, the composite is the route to go down. But I think, you know, implants is just becoming more and more popular. Less and less people want to have removable denture and you know, more and more people are keeping a lot of their teeth. So it’s just the, you know, the a few units missing and implants are obviously the right, the right option for that for a lot of people.

[00:41:41] Of your top tips for Invisalign?

[00:41:43] Well, I I think you’ve got to set yourself a target, right? So if you if you love doing Invisalign and you’re not maybe doing very much at the moment, my wife and I set myself a target and I wanted to do one hundred cases in a year, and I think I ended up doing about one hundred and fifty and it was just, you know, having that target in my head, right? What do we need to do? We need to do a bit more marketing. We’ll get the patients in to change our workflow, you know, adjust the prices, you know, or I always include sort of whitening, for example, with them, with the cases. And so I think just having a target for how many cases you want to do. The other thing is obviously your clinic. So I know a lot of people, a lot of colleagues outsource their clean checks. I still do all of mine. I actually enjoy doing it number one. And I also feel like it helps you massively because when you see things don’t go quite to plan like you’re almost in a better position to work out why and don’t trust the clinic that you get back. I think 70 percent of clinics are just approved on the first run. And, you know, really they I’ve never come across a clinic that’s adequate to be approved when it’s just come back.

[00:42:53] Well, where did you get the skills to to sort of figure out the clinic side?

[00:42:57] So I learn very much by by just trying and doing it. Yeah, and I’m 11 years qualified. I think I’ve been doing Invisalign for probably seven years now, so I definitely have made mistakes. And I think you can be so lulled into trying to get the patient to go ahead that you get this clinic back and you tell the patient, Look at this, this is this is amazing. You know where we’ve got to we’ve we had a bilateral cross. Buy it and now it’s fixed and you just think and I’ve started cases where I have genuinely thought that that was going to be sorted. So I think doing it and making the mistakes, but I did a year long orthodontic course actually called KEF Tactics an awesome and awesome orthodontist called Raj runs it. And that tactic? Theft tactics? Yeah, tactics is really good. And again, if anybody is listening to this and they’re interested in an ortho course, that is, in my opinion and one of the better ones, because it’s not just about aligners, it’s about fixed braces. You know, you’re learning to do fixed braces, but it just actually gave me a such a good understanding of of biology and anchorage and the reality of what movements are difficult. And, you know, sometimes it’s impossible to get a tooth where you want it to get to. If you’re just going to be using a line as a loan and the ability to use sectional fixed braces or use pads and things, those are now what I’m incorporate into my Invisalign treatment. So. Oh, nice. Yeah, it is good. And I signed up to an online thing. It’s called Master Aligner Academy. And again, that’s run by these two Portuguese Invisalign dentists, and it’s just it’s just wicked. You get so much information, it’s really reasonably priced. I think it’s about 80 euros a month and you get like a lecture every month and run through clinics. And yeah, it’s just it’s just a nice, nice group to be a part of. I think there’s like almost a thousand dentists worldwide now on that on that group.

[00:44:57] But I’m interested in what you’re saying because in my day when I was a dentist, I was doing some Invisalign. I was, I was. I took over my wife’s list of patients when when she was pregnant with our kids. And by far the most stressful bit was the clinic part. Mm-hmm. And back then, it didn’t exist to outsource your clinic. But if it did, I definitely would look at that because I was pretty much either accepting the clinic or having to go to someone who understood what they were talking about to see whether it was the right thing or not. And I guess that is outsourcing, isn’t it? Yeah. But but obviously I hadn’t done the education, and I think back then we used to think you can go on a two day course and start, you know, and there kind of was like that, you know, you’d go on. I think with one day course, they’d essentially show you how to use the platform. Not much ortho in that one day and then you just start and you’d make your mistakes. And that’s that’s where it was. But I did come across people who really enjoy that side of it, so it’s interesting. What about bonding? What what education have you had for there?

[00:46:10] So I I did a GC course out in Belgium. Belgium. Yeah, I was. I was in Spain, so it must have been. It could have been nine years ago, and it was like an anterior posterior two day thing. I went with my mum and my sister, actually. Quite honestly, I drank far too much beer. And the second day of learning maybe wasn’t quite as effective as it could have been, but I did that. And then, you know, I haven’t made I I know I’ve done hundreds. If not, I mean, maybe, yeah, maybe up to 1000 cases of bonding. And you just think, you know, by doing so many cases, you’re going to you’re going to learn. And obviously, you take tips from very eminent dentist, obviously like Monique. I’ve got good friends who I always always ask questions about, you know, tips and tricks, but I just learnt by doing it. I don’t use anything fancy. I literally just use clear matrix strips, and most of my cases are just free hand. I’m always doing a free hand mock up beforehand, so that again gives me a good insight into what the patient’s expecting. It gives me an idea of the phonetic appearance are lots of photographs, et cetera. So yeah, and just use and press direct as my is my go to composite. It’s yeah, it’s just it’s just a lot, a lot, a lot of bonding units. And what do you use for polishing? I use various things. I use soft like sticks this for shaping. I use the ASUP polishes there. They’re pretty decent. Most silicone spiral as a decent and

[00:47:53] They’re all made in one place, but

[00:47:55] I’m sure they are made.

[00:47:57] There’s a patent, there’s a patent on it. There’s a patent on it, right? Yeah. So and a paste as well. Look, no with any that there is no patent.

[00:48:05] Yeah, there isn’t really a piece. I mean, the the there’s a there’s a brushed by kick, which I use before the polishers. Rubber wheels for me is what I tend to use and different sort of gradients of that. And then usually just finish it off with one of the ACEP polishes to

[00:48:26] Use that thing, that that overclocked instrument with the why the what they call

[00:48:31] That? Do you use that? Yeah, I mean, that is my my bread and butter. I’ve just run out of the smaller size and I’m trying to use this like five millimetre or six millimetre pad. And it’s just like my thumb basically trying to put this composite on a teeth. So it’s funny how you become so used to what you’re using. I use I use this awesome instrument called an Acro Flex. I’m giving away all my tips now. It’s like this really, really flexible ended instrument. The the nurses have a great habit of breaking, so I usually have two or three in my drawer, a very thin plastic. It’s it’s like unbelievably thin and it’s super flexible.

[00:49:09] Yeah, we have one called IPCA PKL that gets broken at lot.

[00:49:12] So I’ve used that. But this things are even more flexible than that. And it’s yeah, once you start using it, like, I just can’t not now use it. But yeah, once once it comes back from the Dickon with one end instead of two and you’re looking at nursing nurse,

[00:49:28] Is this who’s the manufacturer of that?

[00:49:30] And it’s. Really, actually, you really. Oh, is it? Yeah.

[00:49:36] Crow flicks I’ve never come across,

[00:49:37] They’re always on back or on on on Dental directory, so I don’t want people to be buying it now because I think I’m the only one that buys them.

[00:49:47] I want to move on to darker days. Yeah. Well, what’s been the darkest days dentist?

[00:49:53] And well, I’m generally a pretty happy guy, right? So I try and see the the good and most things, and I try and try and be positive about stuff. I mean, there have been situations clinically where it’s been. It’s been sort of, you know, touch and go bump clenching moments where I did an implant and a patient on a Saturday morning and everything was fine. It was a lower lower five seven. Yeah, I sort of submerge them close the flap. Bleeding stopped. She had been, you know, she was taking warfarin. So we left her in the clinic for a while. No bleeding corner of the afternoon. Absolutely fine Sunday. She she messaged, saying that it’s bleeding a little bit so of gave her advice throughout the day. She said, No, it’s fine. It’s fine. I went to bed, woke up in the morning on Monday to a barrage of texts being like, It’s bleeding a lot. What do I do? You know, when you wake up to these texts and you think, Oh, right, so Corder didn’t pick up, called a house phone, didn’t pick her up, and I was thinking, I mean, you know, obviously you’re thinking very much the worst. Eventually, she’d call me back. She’s like, No, I’m, you know, it has been doing a lot all night. Can I come and see you? So I got her straight in and she had this huge haematoma in her mouth.

[00:51:08] And I just, you know, obviously she’s looking, you know, you can see something at the corner of your eye looking at you and you’re trying to keep this super calm, cool face thinking everything is absolutely fine inside. You are literally breaking it. So I just removed like the blood clot, stuck a of gauze and there put a load of anaesthetic in and just and I obviously had a full day. Patients bear in mind and I just got to sit in the waiting room. Luckily, at the time, there was a separate waiting room she could sit in and I actually called for and I just said, Look, I’ve got this patient. She she’s bleeding a bit. She sort of said, Look, you’re doing all the right things. But ultimately, if you need me to see her, just get her in a cab and send her to my practise and I’ll take care of it for you. And I don’t know how many dentists would just be like that. You know, it’s it’s unbelievable the way that she can be. And I think that from that moment I thought, Well, actually, so I’ve got I’ve got a everything’s going to be in a way like, I’m not having to go to any of this patient. I’ve got like, I’ve got a solution. And and luckily, the bleeding had just slowly stopped, but the patient left at like three p.m. in the afternoon. And in hindsight, I should have got some tranexamic acid mouthwash.

[00:52:17] And, you know, those sort of things that, yes, we talked about it and I thought about it. And in hindsight, you know, I made the wrong call by not not getting it in, but whether it would have helped or not. Who knows? But that was that was pretty, pretty tough. And you know what was really weird? I’m not a I’m not a sort of particularly religious guy. My I grew up, my parents were very religious. I went to church every Sunday. I used to carry the cross in the church service and all that. But it was that day where my dad for some reason had gone on a survey of somebody’s house who was a sort of a sort of psychic kind of lady, right? A clairvoyant. And she I don’t know why, but they got into a conversation, and I think my dad was talking about his dad, who was a dentist, and she said, No, I can feel his presence in the room and I can feel that he’s he’s there with your son and he’s just looking out for him and pay. I’m not joking, mate. Like, I hadn’t talked to my dad at this point, and I called him that day and he said, Tom, you know, that is that’s weird. Like, so that was that was that was a weird ending to that day as well.

[00:53:28] But you were religious. Yeah, but tell me, look at that something in a way out of your control. What happened there?

[00:53:34] Yes, I think it was because there was, you know, looking back, there was nothing else, you know, I got nothing,

[00:53:40] Nothing you could have really done

[00:53:41] Differently. No, I mean, exactly. It wasn’t like I sort of loaded it or put any abutments on it. You know, the flap just went back like there was no there was no tension under the flap. I think I think it just,

[00:53:51] You know, give me an example of something where it went wrong for you. You know, insomuch as the way you handled it made it go wrong.

[00:53:58] That was my fault. And I think, I think just over promising to patients wanting them to accept the treatment plan and

[00:54:07] The early days, right in the early days when you haven’t got much work. Absolutely. There’s pressure to do that completely.

[00:54:12] And you know, you see this big ticket treatment plan. You get all excited and you just look back and you think, you know what? What on earth was doing? Like, I wasn’t chasing the money, but I wasn’t. I wasn’t treatment planning it correctly. And, you know, at that time, based on the knowledge that I had, it was in my head the right thing to do. I’ve never, ever, ever, ever. Sold a treatment to a patient that they didn’t need, right? So, you know, but you look back and you think, you know, I think it was a, I guess, a seven unit bridge with, you know, like a double abutments and you just think, Oh, God, like at some point that’s going to fail quite badly. But you know, what can you do? Like it was in my head the right thing, the right thing to do at that time.

[00:54:55] I think the conversation needs to be heard, you know, that I’ve been there. Young, young, private dentist with my book not full. And at the time, we were doing a lot of veneers posting videos and and it was pretty. It was pretty girl sort of where you know how it’s going to look and you’ve got the guy to show you how much enamel to remove, to stay in and out and all pre all of that. Yeah, and over enthusiastically selling it to a patient and then living to regret that, right? Living to regret how. And the strange thing is, as you get more experience, you realise sort of the less you push, the more acceptance you get.

[00:55:35] Absolutely. Well, I think the patients, yeah, yeah, completely. I think the patient is going to feel it. And they and obviously, you know, it comes it comes across that you’re, you know, you need to work. Yeah, like literally like, you know, without sanding. It’s not we’re not sounding arrogant. Like sometimes I don’t I don’t need the work. So I’m always saying to them, you know, like people have come in and asking me for four Invisalign and bonding. And actually, I’ve just said, look, just just have some teeth whitening and just just see how you feel. Your teeth are actually very nice. So, you know, in my younger days, I probably wouldn’t have done that. Know I would have I would have gone with what they wanted, right? And if they wanted veneers, I would’ve said, Yeah, let’s let’s do it like, I’m doing what the patient wants and I’m doing the right thing. But you know, now now it’s it’s it’s obviously through experience. You you’ve still got to do what you feel is right. It’s not. It’s not what the patient wants. Well, I’ll rephrase that. Patients don’t always know what they want. They they think they do, and they come in asking for something. And you know, it’s your job to actually educate them and actually show them that really, what they’re asking for is not going to look right because you don’t want to start a treatment where inside something’s telling you all,

[00:56:51] You

[00:56:51] Know. You know, you always want to have total confidence in what you’re doing from the very start, because again, from experience, the cases that I can think of where I’ve done what the patient wanted and actually it didn’t look right. And I knew from the start it wasn’t going to look right, but I always wanted to do it for them, for them to say, Oh no, you were right. You know, then the then the realisation hits that I’ve got a now, sort it out. And you know, it took me three times as long and I’m sure I didn’t charge the patient and I thought, why did I do that again to prove a point? So, so now it’s very much, you know, I hear what you’re saying, I’m listening to what you want. I’m trying to actually really understand what it is you want, not what you think you want. And then trying to present a treatment plan to the patient that’s, you know, hopefully meeting their their real needs. That’s that’s that’s the plan anyway.

[00:57:49] Well, I think what you said earlier about being content with where you are and enjoying it, it’s it’s actually a beautiful thing. I mean, what our goal is there than being happy, right? But what do you see for the future? Do you you see you staying in this sort of one room situation? Or do you see yourself scaling bottling TCC up and and and kind of scaling into bigger ideas?

[00:58:17] Yeah, I mean, I think there’s I always have these conversations with myself and, you know, have lots of ideas. And I suppose there’s a few different paths that lie ahead of me. And right now, I’m very much at that crossroads and I don’t know which which which path I’m going to be taking. Of course I’d love to. I’d love to do what Fossella has done for me, for other dentists, you know, to have that opportunity to rent a room and almost, you know, build your own sort of mini practise, but without all the extra stresses. You know, that’s been remarkable. And you know, I’ll thank her every day for it. So for me to do that to somebody else or other people, that would that would be nice. I would obviously love to have a passive income and own a practise and have associates. And you know, it’s it’s hard when you’ve you’re the breadwinner and you’ve got a house and two kids and you want to take a holiday. But actually the the cost of the holiday, plus the cost of still renting the room when I’m not there, you know, you just think, gosh, like it turns out to be quite expensive. So to have a little bit of, yeah, some associates working for you, of course, that would be lovely. But I have a lot of friends who in practises and the grass is always greener. So, you know, it’s it’s yeah, it’s a strange I’m in a strange place. I’m thirty thirty four, thirty five and I feel like I’ve I’ve got this far and I’m almost now ending this first chapter. And it’s very much about where where DCC is going on, going on from here. And honestly, I don’t I don’t really know the answer, but hopefully, hopefully next year I’ll have a better idea.

[00:59:55] Yeah. So look for four month old baby is going to do that to you, thirsty, you know, because no sleepless nights and worries. And you know, my brother just had a kid and it’s just reminded me of all the things you worry about with a kid. Yeah. And I know you’re not the type to beat yourself up about it. So don’t, but don’t beat yourself up about it. It’s nothing. On the other hand, you’ll be amazed how quickly thirty four turns to 50, like really quickly, much quicker than 20 turns to thirty four somehow. I know it’s a cliche, but it’s real. And you know you’re the kind of guy who, you know, you’re very personable and that for me, the number one skill of a business owner is communicating with your people, you know, with your weather, whether it’s your people or your customers, you’re in your case, your patience, but communication. And definitely you’ve got communication down. You’re likeable kind of person. Do you remember a time where you weren’t as confident?

[01:00:58] Oh, god, yeah. I mean, do you know what? I remember my very first CD conference. It was in Edinburgh. I think it must have been six years ago and obviously through, you know, Simon at the time had been quite heavily involved and he was like, you know, come along. It’s a great conference. And you know, now the backdrop is now

[01:01:17] You’re on the board of it, right? You’re one of the committees

[01:01:19] On the committees, and I’m probably going to be applying for the board next year. Yeah, and and and the very first course I went to and I had all this expectation and I turned up. I didn’t really know anybody. And I think because of my I look back now and I think because of my attitude, you know, I I’m quite shy in certain situations and I wasn’t approaching people. I wasn’t talking to people, but I saw it as, Oh, these people aren’t talking to me. They’re all very cliquey. They’re not, you know, they don’t, you know, yeah, it was very much me, but I at the time was not seeing it that way. So I suppose, yeah, there was definitely a time in my life where I didn’t have that confidence to just to go and speak to people, really. And, you know, just just just through getting to know them, you actually realise that everybody there is very much of the same mind. I mean, obviously you’ve been for many years. So you know, you know, right there, excellent dentist want the same thing for the patients and all like a good beer at the end of the day. So it’s a win win.

[01:02:22] It’s a funny one BCD, because as you’d expect, for someone like me to be not into it because no one’s really there to shop, no one’s really there to buy things. Yeah, so you know, it ends up, you know, some often costing, you know, a lot, a lot of exhibitions, you know, you get a return on. Usually I do, and yet keep keep going back to it. It’s it’s almost like friends, you know, seeing friends again, it’s a little family. It’s a nice little family, and obviously, you know, you don’t look at everything as Roy, right? It’s not like every every activity you do has to bring in a certain number of dollars, otherwise it’s not a worthwhile activity. Know, I love Becky and it’s nice. This time was lovely, wasn’t it, this time going back?

[01:03:08] It was. So it was after lockdown.

[01:03:11] It was always like people wanted some sort of event.

[01:03:14] There were some pent up energy there, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, this is interesting about your your return on investment, actually, because just going back to the earlier question about, you know, working with influencers, you know, actually there are certain ones that you would work with knowing that you’re not going to get real any return on investment. But actually, it’s just good to have that exposure and just a good to have that person on on your page. So I suppose a little bit like, you know, at the back, you know, you’re not really going to be, you know, you might be losing money, but you’re still getting that exposure and you’re still associating yourself with what I still think is like an amazing it’s about.

[01:03:54] It’s about a conversation sometimes, you know? Absolutely. I mean, in a way, look, we had dinner at Bakhtaoui together. Yeah. And now now here we are. You know, you probably wouldn’t have been on this as as early if we hadn’t had that dinner, you know, you know, simple thing like that.

[01:04:11] Yeah, but that’s just dentistry. Do you not think Dental dentistry is such a small world? And again, any advice to a young dentist out there is that, you know, you think that you’re going to be in a mutually exclusive event, but you never know how long it would take. But some, you know, a lot of the time things will always come back and somebody will know somebody or, you know, there’s always this repercussions of of of anything in dentistry. So it’s just just being aware of that good a good things and bad things, obviously. But it’s just it’s just a small world, you know, like you’ll bump into people some somewhere random and you think what? You know, it’s like my, my, my, my mum. You know, Simon’s mum and my mum were at the same uni together a year apart. And you just think, Well, yeah, I mean, that’s weird. But they didn’t know each other if they didn’t know each other. So anyway,

[01:05:07] No, but you’re right, I was having coffee with Rupert Monkhouse. We both live in Fulham. Yeah, and he he said, Oh, I mentioned you were going to come on. And he was like, Oh, I used to work in that practise the practise. Yeah. It’s just such a small business.

[01:05:24] And what’s funny is that, you know, there’s like, what, forty thousand dentists in the UK. But yeah, it’s the people that you actually want to associate with. There’s probably only 1000 thousand right or less than and actually all those people are all part of the same societies. They all go to the same things. They all do similar things. So actually, you think that you’re part of this forty plus thousand community, but in reality, you probably are in a much smaller circle than you realise. And that’s probably why you end up bumping into people that know you or know of you a lot more than you think.

[01:06:00] Yeah, it’s you know, there’s I don’t know if I’d go as far as to say the people I want to to mix with. But but I would say that there’s I’d say out of the 40000, there’s twenty thousand who don’t want to talk about dentistry outside of their day job, for sure. You know, that’s that’s definitely true. You know, I think about sometimes with my year people in my ear. The same ones turn up to all the events, you know, showcase or be a CD or, you know, it’s just a measure of my year who was like thirty six people, the same six people are the ones I see all the time at Dental things. And so you know that conundrum and I think for you at your stage in your career, you’re just at that inflexion point. Yeah, of is it something that you love and you’re going to just get better at it all the time and enjoy more and more and more? Or is it something you start stop loving so much and start wanting to get out of starts around the beginning of the end? You know, you’re both at the end of the beginning and at the beginning of the end, in a weird way.

[01:07:13] You know,

[01:07:14] It’s back breaking work in the end, right? There’s some of that. For me, the thing about the worst thing about dentistry is showing up. Yeah, you know, you’ve got to be there to actually do the work. But then there’s so many plus sides to it. And when I went back to it, I really appreciated the plus side. You know, the talking to people that however much we complain, the relatively easy cash. Yeah, you know, don’t hurt people and and you’re pretty much be OK. Be nice. I didn’t have when I was a dentist, I didn’t have the whole GDC hassle. How much does that bear on you?

[01:07:52] Massively. I mean, I pretty much walk past the GDC office every day on the way to as a reminder that, you know, don’t mess up to date on. And I mean, it’s I think it’s there in every, every dentist head, especially younger dentists. You know, what are the stats you’re you know, you’re you’re likely to get sued twice right now. That’s sort of the the statistics, which is awful when a lot of people are just they’re trying to do the best thing for the patient. And I think a lot of complaints probably come down to a lack of communication, which, you know, is why that is a big part of my of my kind of workflow and my ethos. But yeah, it’s always it’s always in the back of your head that a patient, the patient has so much power that they can just change their opinion, change their mind. And somehow it’s now it’s your fault that they’ve changed their mind. But now you’ve got to deal with it. And if you don’t deal with it in the right way? Well, I can just quite simply go to any kind of, you know what,

[01:08:57] Google bad Dental.

[01:08:59] Exactly. And then and then you know, your career is in jeopardy and you’re faced with a seriously stressful time when it wasn’t sometimes even justified. It’s obviously there. And I think,

[01:09:11] You know, one of us did. The cosmetic dentistry tends to come with this, right? I mean, it’s it’s a funny combination because cosmetic dentistry has a big, subjective element to it. I like it or I don’t like it. Yeah. And yet when you’re in this in this sort of framework of a patient can ruin your career. Mm hmm. It’s weird because someone could come and have 20 veneers done. Agree to everything, sign off on everything, and then at the end of it, say, I don’t like it. Yeah, and and then they’re very likely to get their money back. Very likely.

[01:09:47] Oh, pay. I mean, I’ve you know, of course you’ve I’ve been in situations like that where again, you look back and you think, what could I have done differently? But you know, the sad thing is you’re just going to refund the patient because it’s the easiest way out and it’s just not worth the hassle sometimes. So I wish I had bigger balls and just thought, Well, actually, you know, if I if I truly am not in the wrong gear, I’m not thinking. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I just I’m just not not there at that stage. I think, yeah, that’s not me. I just I try and please people. And if for some reason they are unhappy, I mean, look, it doesn’t happen very often. I’m very fortunate. But the very rare occasion, I’ll just say, look, it’s fine. Just, you know, have your money back. It’s not. It’s not an issue.

[01:10:35] If you if you go on to open a practise or a chain of practise or whatever, what kind of boss do you think you’ll be? Do you think you’ll be the sort of the hard type or the too soft type? I think you’re going to be a softy, right?

[01:10:47] Do you think I’m a hard type of guy? I’m really not. I mean, I will. I would very much be the soft type, and I suppose that’s the worry. I almost need like a dragon practise manager.

[01:11:02] Carrot stick to you, Kyra. It doesn’t mean, you know, it doesn’t mean you can’t do it, dude. I’ve got I’ve got a partner who takes care of that side of things in enlighten. Okay. If you’d left it up to me, I’d just say yes to everything. Sure. That’s that’s my problem. I literally say yes to whatever the question is. My answer is yes.

[01:11:23] The staff sometimes do the same. It’s it’s a funny way of life, though, but you know, just just just actually just saying yes to things generally opens doors. And, you know, if you say no, if you say no, then you’re probably a bit more reserved and you’re a bit, you know, probably quite careful. You’re sort of worried about the consequences. So it’s it’s easy to say no, but to say yes, this is a fun, fun journey. It’s just like, Yeah, sure. And I obviously has got me in sticky situations, both in a in a work and a personal personal life. But, you know, I think if deep down the intentions were good, then then nothing too bad is going to happen, right? So if you didn’t mean any harm, then it probably would be OK.

[01:12:10] I’m going to ask you a hypothetical question because I know there’s no such thing as a day off for Tom right now. Yeah, but if there was if you had a day to yourself to do whatever the hell you wanted, yeah.

[01:12:22] What would you do? What would I do? And I definitely play some golf. Yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, trying to fit in golf with with two young children. My wife is brilliant. Yeah, well, you know, was really funny. Last year she brought me. I’ve been playing golf for 20 years and I can’t get my handicap under like 20, right? So she bought me these these six golf lessons with a golf pro in a club nearby. And let’s see on my birthday, like a month before our second daughter was supposed to be born. And I said to her, that’s seriously generous, number one. But also you do realise that for six Fridays, for two hours, I’m out like, you know, playing golf. And I think the reality hadn’t kind of set in. So every time I went on my lesson, I felt so guilty. But yeah, I think I think if I had a day off and there were no there was no children to look after and my wife was off having a nice day herself. I definitely have a round of golf in with a few friends and probably my dad. And then I’d probably be hitting hitting a sort of party in the evening and and waking up at, well, get to bed at 6:00 a.m. That’s probably my perfect day.

[01:13:34] Your closest buddies, still your school friends.

[01:13:37] Or you know what? It’s really sad. Like, I don’t I don’t speak to any of my of my schoolmates. Probably a combination of reasons. I went to different university. They all went north. I went south. And yeah, it just it just somehow lost touch of trying to got back in touch with some of them live with a few recently, but it’s all kind of petered out. So all my friends are uni mates, actually, all from Bristol. There’s seven guys me included in a sort of fairly tight group of friends, and we try and meet up four times a year. We’ve all got families and it’s hard to get seven people’s diaries to align for four times in a year, which is crazy, really. But we try and get a weekend and we vote in a president and so sort of social social secretary each year to organise the events. But it’s good fun. Yeah.

[01:14:30] I’m going to close it with some of Prav questions, sure. Running a deathbed. Yeah. Because the nearest and dearest around you. One of three bits of advice that you’d leave them and the world

[01:14:45] Fairly morbid, especially at Christmas time, this bait. I mean, yeah. And I suppose. So to be content and to have followed your dreams, I think that is so undervalued. I’ve come across so many successful dentists. Well, I mean, a lot of dentists in the world that I live in, but a lot of people, you just think God. You are from the outside, you’re so successful, but they’re still chasing something that you just think, God, I wish, I wish I could be in your shoes and actually just think, Gee, what? I’m really, really happy with where I’ve got, so I think that is that’s quite important.

[01:15:25] Think that the tension between contentment and striving, we’ve got that sort of in society. We’ve got those two things in tension. And we like almost like being content. It’s almost like failing completely.

[01:15:37] Yeah, that’s so true.

[01:15:39] And it’s it’s a shame, isn’t it? Because like I said before, that must be the most important thing to be happy, right?

[01:15:45] Absolutely. I mean, you know, we we all suffer with a bit of mental health issues, and I think now, you know, people are talking about it and it’s a real common problem. And I think people, especially with social media and I think this is one of the reasons why I try and stay clear of it, because even when I go on social media and I’ve gained down my, you know, my news feed, I’m comparing myself to these people and I’m thinking, Oh what? I don’t have that car or I’m not on holiday. And I think just for me, it’s just better just to stay clear of it. But yeah, I think it’s something that we all need to try and work on to be content and happy.

[01:16:25] It’s definitely the number one be content.

[01:16:27] Yeah, I’d have to say that I think trying things once is a good thing, you know, experience life to its fullness. I think we are on this planet for maybe no reason at all. Maybe we’re just evolved from a simple bacteria or an organism and and there is no greater being. But you know, it’s it’s it’s pretty cool to be to be here and there are so many things to enjoy, and I think you just got to try and enjoy everything you can possibly enjoy. And I suppose don’t don’t stress over the little things and just, you know, be be the person you want to be. I think that that would be my my my leaving comment. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:17:08] What’s? But I’d say that’s one. So that’s two you’ve given me,

[01:17:15] I gave you quite a few.

[01:17:18] No, no, that’s the, you know, try stuff. I guess it’s different to be the person you want to be.

[01:17:23] Yeah, I’ll go for one more. Okay. Well, just just actually be honest and have integrity. And yeah, just just go out and start the days as you as you want. And I love the film. It’s called About Time, and it’s about this family that have the ability to travel back in time. But when there are major points in their life, like a child is born, they can’t travel back before that because when they come back to the present day, the child could be different, right? And I always watched it. I always leave that thinking, Yeah, actually, just just be just be true to yourself. And yeah, be honest. So that’s that has to be three.

[01:18:04] Yeah. Yeah, that’s three. And what about I mean, I think we asked you at BCD and we’ve got Henry the eighth as one of the guests that came out on the final video. But the fancy dinner party, three guests that are alive, Henry VIII

[01:18:18] Got

[01:18:19] Your reason. Just cracked me up. What was the reason? Because I’ve never, never really chatted to him before.

[01:18:27] I’m not sure about it. I’m not sure if I’d slept that much that night. And you took. Yeah, I mean, I still I still I still would have Henry the eighth. And yeah,

[01:18:37] Yeah, no. That was one of the best answers.

[01:18:39] You know what the thing is, right? The only picture these give Henry the eighth is a is a book, and I’d love to, you know what he looked like in real life and and

[01:18:51] How was you never see him sipping a gin and tonic?

[01:18:58] So obviously living, you know, very close to Hampton Court Palace, you just think, yeah, I mean, how amazing it would be to meet Henry the eighth and actually really understand what it would or what it’s like to live back then. So I’m still saying that he’s coming if he can make it amazing. So Wolf of Wall Street film The Guy after Jordan Belfort, he would actually be quite quite an interesting character.

[01:19:21] I bet he’s got a few stories to tell you to actually

[01:19:24] Find out how much of that, how much of that film is true. I did. Did they actually? Yeah, he does.

[01:19:32] He does. He does a podcast, I think.

[01:19:34] I think he does. Yeah, I think he does listen to Jordan Belfort. Who else? I mean, I buy a lot of clothes from suit supply. And so the founder of Suits apply. I think his name is it’s like some sort of Scandinavian name for Bulk de Jong or something. And so I think he would be quite fun because to actually just work, you know, ask him some, some some sort

[01:20:04] Businessman you admire. Is that what it is like?

[01:20:06] How he did it? Absolutely. How he did it, where it came from, because it just it just seemed to kind of expand massively. And they’ve got shops popping up everywhere and all the clothes that it just really, really great. Like, they fit well and they look great. And yeah, so it’s out to have a chat with him. It would be interesting.

[01:20:25] Yeah. When you’re six foot two or whatever, everything fits well and looks like, how tall are you?

[01:20:33] Yeah. Six, six two. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:20:36] Yeah, yeah. If you got any problems with stuff looking good in fitting, well, anyway, that movie to have you, man. Thanks, man. And it was it was a good laugh, actually.

[01:20:49] Yeah, it’s good fun

[01:20:50] And see you soon and

[01:20:53] We will. Thanks, Pete. Take it easy, mate. All right, buddy. Bye bye.

[01:20:58] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:21:14] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

[01:21:29] If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

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[00:00:00] There’s quite a few things that you need to consider when an offer is made for your business, and there’s a lot of due diligence in that process, you know? What does the offer look like? How much cash are you going to get on completion? What does your earnout period look like? Have you spoken to previous people that that corporate has bought or partnered with? And what’s their experience been like in terms of getting there now out? For example, was there any price chipping along the way in the negotiations? What did they look like? Speaks to an interview the lawyers and asked them what it’s been like dealing with buyer, a baby buyer? S. How did the deals usually go? Are they usually quick? And then, you know, how does the deal turn out in terms of the in terms of the year now? Are there any growth shares? You know what happens if you overperform for that business and in four years time you’ve increased their rear bit by a hundred K or 200 K? Is there any upside for you? There’s so many different things in the way in which all the offers end up on the table. They’re slightly different in many ways, and you just need to sit back and absorb what has been offered on the table and what every single element means.

[00:01:17] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:34] Well, we’re coming to the end of twenty twenty one and I thought we’d have a little run through the year and look at what we’re looking at for next year. And it’s lovely to have Prav back on the show. Hey, Prav.

[00:01:47] Hey, buddy. Yeah, I’m good. I’m a good. I’m good.

[00:01:52] I’ve had quite a lot of listeners ask me, you know, West Prav. So where have you been, buddy? Do you want to explain to the audience where you’ve been all this time or? Yeah.

[00:02:03] So I crawled into a hole, right? And I’m just coming back out of it now. And, shall we say, over the last sort of three or four months, you know, I think I think let’s go back to the beginning of the podcast, right when we set up Dental Leaders Me and pay, we made a promise to each other that we were going to launch an episode every single week. I remember when we kicked off and I said one a month and they said, No, no, no. He he negotiated and he said one every two weeks. And then he said, Listen, buddy, we’ve recorded 20. Let’s just do one a week. Let’s just do one a week. And then and then the momentum we picked up the momentum. We have lots of listeners that get in touch with us who look forward to listening to this on their morning commute, their run when they’re exercising, whatever. So we promised we would not let the weekly sort of rhythm disappear. But, you know, I’ve had a project on that I’ve been working on and I’ve had to take some time out from the podcast. And this is where teamwork comes in, right? And and Payman has been there to, you know, do a lot of the interviews in my absence and then even me when my schedule’s allowed me to.

[00:03:10] You’ve probably noticed I’ve done the odd solo episode. I’ve interviewed a guest here or there without a. Now we’re back as the dynamic duo. So where have I been the last three months? I’ve been deep within due diligence in the process of exiting from my group of practises. So that’s probably been the most stressful and intensive three months of my working career. And there was a lot of preparation leading up to it and during the whole process, and I’m happy to answer any questions around that. But I had to step back from some of my duties and the podcast was one of them I had to focus on. Obviously, my agency, the fresh, my work with the Ace Academy and then the exits as well. And it has been like doing three or four full time jobs, burning the candle at both ends. Fitness goes outside out of the window, family life went on hold for a bit and I had to park that and we’re out of the other side.

[00:04:11] So, you know, it was a surprise to me how involved the processes of selling a practise by talking to you and all the conversations we’ve had in this period. But, you know, I’m quite interested to know, is it is it that this was a, you know, first of all, a complicated deal in that you had three practises and so forth? Is it that you’re one of these all or nothing kind of people and you are? This is true, but you jump into stuff and when you get into something, you fully get into that thing because I just can’t imagine that most dentists, when they come to sell their practise, have had to devote the amount of time that you’ve had to to this, you know, is it that you’re a perfectionist and is the process much more complicated than most people realise?

[00:04:59] Hey, this could have been done in several ways, right? And you’re right, I am a perfectionist and I need to know every single detail. Yeah, right down to every single line item in the zero accounts, right down to the process, right down to interviewing the lawyers that we were going to choose to move forward with. Reviewing every line in the heads of terms, reviewing every item in the lease, right? I am one of those individuals who has to absolutely understand everything. There are some people who sell the practise and they will just go through the motions. They will accept things. There’s things that will go over their heads. And it’s a bit like when I speak to some of my clients that I’m coaching, they don’t know how to read a profit and loss statement. They don’t know how to read a balance sheet. They don’t know. They don’t understand their end of year, but they just didn’t trust in their accountant and just sign the sign the thing at the end of the year, I need to understand and know every single detail and the process and journey that I went through. I wanted to document it. I wanted to make sure that everything was incredibly thorough. And let me tell you, when you actually sit back and and say to yourself, Right, you’ve been building this baby, and let’s not be, let’s not beat around this bush, right? This is a group of practises that I bought into four or five years ago.

[00:06:15] Ok, well, the group of practises was originally set up, developed and launched by Karl Beheira and his wife, Raha. Ok, it was their baby. They. Recline in mind for 10 to 12 years, and then I was fortunate enough to be able to be in a position to be able to buy in to that practise and assist in the growth development all the way through to exit. And the reason why I guess the process has been so intense is that I did want to understand absolutely everything and you only get one shot. Ok. It’s not like selling an Invisalign case. It’s not like selling an implant case. You sell one this week. It doesn’t go to, well, patient doesn’t go ahead or whatever you sell another one next week, you sell another one the week after you’ve only got one shot at partnering with the right business and selling your business right. So I wanted to make sure that every single decision we made was incredibly well executed. Thoughtful, thorough and cow is exactly the same as me. In that respect, he is insanely OCD about detail, and that’s where the two of us work really, really well together in the sense that we knew it was going to be an intense process. But I embraced that process and I saw it as a learning experience.

[00:07:41] I can talk to you about it, but when you initially got into this partnership that the conversation about exit start right at the get go, were you saying, you know,

[00:07:51] Right at the beginning, maybe in the

[00:07:54] Beginning you said that you’re

[00:07:56] So right at the beginning. So there was a lot of due diligence even before I came on as a partner. Ok. Both on from Campeche and Raaz perspective and my perspective as well. So there’s a there’s an amazing book called the Partnership Charter. And we both both both parties, we read that and there’s right in the back of that book, there’s a bunch of questions that you must, must, must act, ask each other as business partners loads are super uncomfortable questions. But there was a lot of business planning, forecasting and stuff that we did prior to me, even at the point of buying the shares. And one of them was the exit valuation of the estate and we said to each other and we agreed together that when the valuation of the business hits a certain number, that is the point that we both agree that we will target that value, that that exit OK. And so when we hit that, then we knew we had to start planning, unlike all of these things, right? You have these big, hairy, audacious goals, and I don’t really want to talk about numbers because I don’t think it’s appropriate.

[00:09:05] But let me ask you, did you hit the number

[00:09:07] Two two years into the into the project? So I guess the point what I want to make is that when we did end up exiting, we exited for twice the value of what our big, hairy, audacious goal was. I think we we both underestimated it. But at the time, I think we both felt we were overestimating right. That was our that was our big, hairy, audacious goal or whatever you want to call it. So. But you know, there were a lot of structured discussions about what my duties were, what car pressures duties were, what Raaz duties were, what we were all expected to do in this business. And forget about the exit. Forget about the partnership with the new team that we’ve just partnered with. There was one overriding factor in this whole business and that was maintaining exceptional customer service, maintaining an amazing patient experience, generating a sales, marketing and training business that was scalable, where Carl Peche could step back clinically and pick and choose the cases he wanted to do and where Raha could step back and focus on family and focus primarily on sort of coaching a lot of the team in terms of the the sort of day to day running of the practise and keeping them well motivated. So we all had our goals that we wanted to achieve. And part of them revolved around, you know, reducing clinical input and focussing more on the business and also the various goals and KPIs that we had in place to grow that business.

[00:10:41] The rhythm of the monthly meetings, the rhythm of the quarterly meetings, the rhythm of the end of year meetings, right? And what the various outputs there were of them when KPIs changed. What do we do, right? When things went up? Yeah. What were the patterns and trends that we were spot in when things went down? How did we deal with them? And then on the day to day, you know, I think it’s really, really important to stress here that, you know, without having the right team and I’m talking about me, Campeche and Rafa together, working as a team, none of us would have been able to achieve what we achieved. Ok, I’ll give you and I’ll give you a little bit of an insight into this if there’s a gap in the diary tomorrow afternoon. Kyle Pash will know about it. Not not in his diary, in an associates diary. If there’s a gap in a hygienist diary. Kyle Peche will know about that, and he will instruct the relevant team members to fill that gap. And it’s that micro level of detail and stress multiplied across multiple disciplines and areas in the business that drives the success of that business.

[00:11:47] So outline what was what were your responsibilities and what were his and what were rattled?

[00:11:53] Ok, so if we take it from a very simple perspective, I mean, I was the marketing person, sales and marketing person from right at the beginning, right when they launched. I remember meeting Karl Passion is one stroke, two bedroom flat in Birmingham and talking about this concept of the Dental suite that he launched and his baby and his ambitions. Right? And they grew that over the first 10 years, and Kyle Busch and Ray have worked their socks off, right? Then I came on board and my responsibilities were to drive business into the practise. As simple as that and my role focussed around sales, marketing and assisting with the customer service side of the business, right systems and processes. Another one of my key roles in the business was and still is putting together strategy working really alongside Carl Pash a lot of the time. But for me, my unique ability sits in document in that process. Am I to go to tools when running and managing any business? I Google Sheets, so essentially a spreadsheet and a tool called Lucid Chart. So I use Lucid Charts, a very simple flow chart and software, and a flow chart every single process in my business, whether it’s to do with how you answer the phone. Whatever it’s to do with delegation strategy, who’s responsible for what? And then things like if this happens, do this and if that happens, do that and having a visual representation on a flow chart for absolutely everything from people to management to out to marketing to, you know, campaigns and strategy, your sales process, your follow up process.

[00:13:35] I literally flowchart everything and anyone who works with me on a one to one basis knows that. And usually I work with clients on the basis of wheat up, wheat flowchart, everything to visually represent the process and also providing, I would say, a higher level of input for MeaCulpa Sharara to be able to bounce ideas off each other, right? And that was literally it. So what did I have to do? I have to generate the patients the enquiries and to make sure the sales team were appropriately trained and trained. Week on week, month on month. And we executed every single little detail right down to voicemail training, right down to listening to phone calls every time, right down to monitoring the emails that went out to patients and tweaking the language. And this started five years ago, and it still hasn’t stopped today. Is that constant quest for perfection, right? And then hiring new team members, onboarding them, having the systems, processes and delegation strategies in place in order to do that. So in answer to your question, pay. It was my responsibility, and it still is my responsibility today to drive patients into the business and drive the sales process.

[00:14:57] Caltech. And in that in that time? Yeah, in that time. But how did that? How did that play out between Cal and Raho? So one was clinical, one was operations.

[00:15:07] So Cal is focussed is primarily clinical. And also, I think on operations, he’s got his finger on the pulse, on many different areas. So on the clinical side of things, he’s got his WhatsApp group and I’m in that and you can see he’s helping clinicians treatment plan on a daily basis. He’s helping them with sales and that sort of stuff, right? And they come in and shadow him and spend time with him. But on the whole, he’s got his finger on the pulse, on numerous different aspects of the business. Yeah, rehab. She steps back from clinical and mainly focussed on the ground, working with our our amazing practise manager Kerry on, I would say, the easiest way to describe it. And I don’t know if it’s the right words, the touchy feely side of the team, right? Keeping the team happy, making sure that we’re appropriately motivated, giving them some personal coaching. Ok. And Roger is somebody who’s very much been in touch with the human side of the individual team members in the practise. And it’s all those things that generate that, that success that we have in the business, right? Without the patients being driven into the practise, there’d be no wants to do your sales training on your practise your treatments on, do do treatment plans, et cetera, et cetera. And without that, we wouldn’t have the team, et cetera, et cetera. You know, you know, so it’s been a fantastic partnership where we’ve all had our, shall we say, roles and responsibilities, and we’ve all played them out and fulfilled them to get us to where we are today.

[00:16:47] So then let’s go into the moment when you said, Right, we are going to exit and you know, what did you do from that moment up to exit? Because I’m sure there’s loads of people who have no idea what that process involves and doing that process. Of course, you can do that process well or you can do that process badly. You know, is it, you know, we were having the chat before. It’s not simply about maximising the value of the practise. It’s about, you know what, what you want to happen to your baby, right? From the owner from from an campus’s perspective, it’s something that they started as one practise single handed and just give us the numbers in terms of staff and all that numbers of people at the end of it all.

[00:17:33] So in terms of right, you know, right at the end, it’s three practises. And I think I think the easiest way to answer your question here is that, you know, you know, when we started looking at exit, what did we do, you know, there’s a few things mean me and Carl had discussions around the numbers. We did some research on what the market rates today, what kind of multiples are being played paid. How do you calculate how do we figure out what our value is today before we even start speaking to everyone, right? And we had discussions pre-COVID, right? And then obviously COVID put a spanner in the works. Yeah, but actually it was it was a blessing in disguise because what happened is, as we all know, in private dentistry, business grew. Right. And we’re still I still think we’re right in that post-COVID. I say post-COVID. Well, you know, we’re riding, we’re riding that success right where where demand has definitely gone through the roof, turnover has gone through the roof. Profitability has gone through the roof. And, you know, exit valuation ended up being a lot higher than, you know, than we’d anticipated had we gone through that pre-COVID, right? But you got one chance to sell your baby. Now this was my baby for four or five years. This was Shinra Peshmergas baby for 15 years. Completely different emotions for both of us, right? And a much, much bigger deal for for those two, and understandably so. Right. So we went through that process and you say, you know, you can either do it well or you can do it badly.

[00:19:09] Let me tell you some that the majority of people that exit won’t know whether they’ve done it well or badly. They won’t. Yeah, OK, because you’re blind to that, right? We did a lot of research, right? And the one thing that we wanted to do is engage a broker who had the same values with us, who is able to, first of all, open us up to, I would say, the the market give us some insight into what was possible and then give us lots of different options. Ok, so that we were able to see what was out there. We didn’t want to just go to one buyer, right and say, OK, well, there’s what we think your business is worth. We think it’s worth that. Let’s let’s play ball. So we engaged. We engaged the services of a guy called Max from flu told partners very, very early on, and we had numerous conversations with him. And I think when it comes to a broker. Number one, you’ve got to be able to get on with them on a personal level. But number two, they need to know their shit, they need to understand the market and you need to understand what you’re getting out of them versus doing this process by yourself. Ok? And what was very clear is there was a lot of value added, and I don’t think we’d have got to where we had had it not been for for this relationship that we’d developed with Max.

[00:20:31] So you knew that Max Max does it that way because you knew him from before we had it on the on the on the podcast, I we

[00:20:39] Don’t not really know. So so I think one of the things is that we we had we had a few conversations with Max and it was actually Kyle Busch and Ra who initiated the conversations with Max. And he said he said to me, Look, Prav, I’m going to stick you in front of eight to 10 buyers, OK? And then you can make the decision on who the right fit is, what the right deal is. Right? And what’s important here is that we have clear ideas of what we wanted out of this deal, not just financially who was the right partner. Ok, we’re going to be moving forward with this partner for several years to come working together. The team that got us there over the last 15 years, you know, their well-being and their future was just as important to us, right? And we what we definitely do not want to kill the brand in case we had we had certain things criteria that we wanted to meet. We wanted to know what life was like afterwards moving forward with this new partner and minimal changes. And we wanted to make sure we hit the right right valuation. So the best deal on the table is not the most money. I can tell you that for now, the best deal on the table is the right deal for you. So if you’re considering exiting or you’re you’re considering partnering with somebody. The most important thing you need to do is take a step back and ask yourself why. What’s the reason? What’s the reason you want to exit? And the buyers will ask you that anyway, right? But why is it that you want to move on now, OK? What is it that you want out of this? And what’s life after look like? Ok, get that clear in your head and then start speaking to the relevant people.

[00:22:25] There’s quite a few things that you need to consider when an offer is made for your business, and there’s a lot of due diligence in that process. You know, what does the offer look like? How much cash are you going to get on completion? What does your earnout period look like? Have you spoken to previous people that that corporate has bought or partnered with? And what’s their experience been like in terms of getting their earn out? For example, was there any price chipping along the way in the negotiations? What did they look like? Speaks to an interview, the lawyers, and ask them what it’s been like dealing with buyer a buyer? B Buyer C How do the deals usually go? Are they usually quick? And then, you know, how does the deal turn out in terms of the in terms of the. Now, are there any growth shares, you know what happens if you overperform for that business and in four years time you’ve increased their rear bit by a hundred K or 200 K? Is there any upside for you? There’s so many different things in the way in which all the offers end up on the table. They’re slightly different in many ways, and you just need to sit back and absorb what has been offered on the table and what every single element means. What we ended up doing is just producing a spreadsheet of each of the offers that were on the table and just trying to do a like for like compare apples for apples, right? You know, we know every day in dentistry, you know, someone goes and has orthodontic treatment in one place, another place and another place.

[00:23:55] Often the treatment plan is very different from this for the same outcome, and you draw the same analogies when you know, exits in your business. There’s lots of different treatment plans presented on the table. You’ve got to really break them down and understand what you’re getting yourself in for on what the future looks like. As part of that deal and how it shapes up. So Max puts several people in front of us, and it was a two way interview process. The first thing we did is we produced a prospectus that contained all the information about the business or the key USPSTF, all the key financial details. We did a lot of pre due diligence way before we even took it to market right and then presented that to all the potential partners out there, spoke to them, interviewed them, they interviewed us. And then it got to a point and we spoke to a bunch of people. We spoke to the existing usual suspects out there. You know who they are, the big corporates who go around mopping up private Dental practises. We spoke to private equity. We spoke to a business that we’re looking to get into the Dental industry, right? So they hadn’t they didn’t have a practise and they wanted to find a platform to invest in. Yeah, that was an exciting opportunity, right? But we considered everything. We looked at the risk versus the benefits and then decided to choose to move forward with one particular partner who you consider.

[00:25:19] Did you consider taking taking an investment and continuing and, you know, not not selling the majority share?

[00:25:28] We spoke about that possibility, right, but you know, if I’m looking at it from my point of view that you know what, my dilution would have been much higher. Ok? We felt that valuations that hit the appropriate level where we were all comfortable. Remember, we spoke about that magic number earlier. Yeah, we were at 2x that. So it just felt the right time. We looked at all different options, the partner we ended up partnering with. Yeah. And I might as well just spit it out now because I’m sure it’s on everyone’s mind right now, right? So we ended up partnering with Dental. And the reason for that, and without any disrespect to any of the players in the market, we felt their values aligned perfectly with ours and we felt that, you know, during the whole process when we presented the due diligence, when we presented what we wanted. We felt that they really understood what we wanted out of this, and we felt that life after involved minimal change and the change that it would involve was actually for the better. So reducing a bit of the red tape and reducing a bit of the headaches of running a practise and benefiting from the economies of scale. But actually in leaving us to carry on doing things the way we’ve always done them and actually supporting our growth. And I can honestly say during the whole process, when you’re buy buying a business or when you’re selling a business or partnering with someone, it’s you versus them. Yeah, that’s that’s how it is. Yeah, because you want the best deal and they want the best deal didn’t feel like that felt like we were both on the same team. Yeah, it was really refreshing to go through that. It was a lovely process and everyone on the team.

[00:27:16] The interesting, interesting thing about what you’re saying is, you know, you only get one chance to buy a practise, but some of these guys, they buy a practise every couple of weeks, right? Yeah. So they’re very experienced that you’re right. If you get the right fit, then you know, it’s going to have to be adversarial by its very nature to start with, isn’t there? That’s just one of those things. Tell me about the different types of groups that you met. Did you meet any overseas groups? So yeah,

[00:27:46] Yeah, we did. We did. And we met. We met a group, a European group that are looking to enter the UK market. They’ve got practises overseas and they wanted to find their first platform to invest into. Ok, really cool group. Exciting interest in for us. I think we felt it was a little bit too high risk because we didn’t have any structure here in the U.K. there’s no head office here in the U.K., there’s no support here in the U.K.. Ok, and we would be we would be their experiment. Yeah, yeah. We’re not selling our baby to someone who’s going to experiment on us, right? Even if even if the numbers stacked up to be better, right? It just and those were the type of decisions that we made, you know, consider it made it excel spreadsheet of pros and cons of each different partner. And then can you

[00:28:40] Choose can you expand on on the group? Like, how many practises do they have in which country?

[00:28:47] Remember off the top of my head, I can’t remember, but you know, it was 30, it was 30 plus practises, right? Wasn’t a huge group, wasn’t a huge group, OK? And I remember very, very early on we only had one meeting with them. We didn’t, you know, we had multiple meetings with with other people. And it was because we dismissed very, very early on that we felt it was going to be too high risk. Yeah. And then there was another there was another business that was purely private equity set up by somebody who was involved in setting up one or the other big corporates and splintered off wanted to set their own business up. And once again, another first platform, no infrastructure had the team on board. And, you know, really nice people. We met with them twice, but once again, I think we consider that to just be a little bit too risky. And we spent a lot of time interviewing them. Ok. You know, we grilled everyone really hard and, you know, they buckled a few times in terms of some of the questions, the detail was a little bit sketchy. And when you think when you’re ready to go into business or partner with somebody, if they’re sketchy on the detail, then you know, it’s just once again, it’s all about risk versus benefit, right? So we just we just stepped back from that.

[00:30:04] Ok, take me through some of the due diligence and stuff you had to get done in order for this to go through for the lawyers.

[00:30:11] All right. So one of the first things that we did is we did some due diligence on our lawyers. Ok, so what usually happens is you think, right, who’s the lawyer? We’re going to hire to do this right? And you ring your buddy up and you say, Hey, you sold your practise, which lawyer did the use? And then you say, Oh yeah, we used Bob Smith, right? It was really good. Ok, fine. We’ll just hire that guy. We will get in probably a half a dozen recommendations, both from clients of mine who have already exited. Yeah, and from Max, our broker. But we just decided we’re going to Zoom interview every single one of them, a couple of them twice. We had a list of questions we would ask them. And obviously, we wanted to know things like, you know, costs, investments, things like that. And we went through that whole process and we grilled our solicitors as well. And we wanted to hire a solicitor before we have the agreed heads of terms in place. So usually you might get your heads of terms in place and then hire a solicitor. I wanted to make sure our heads of terms were just a little bit more detailed. And so we hired our solicitor beforehand, so we did a bit of due diligence. We had a lady called Gemma from nights who was absolutely amazing. There were a handful of people that we interviewed who we thought were would have been exceptional. What sort of questions did we ask the lawyers? There are a few things like that might might not seem that important. But will you take a call from me at eight o’clock at night? Yeah. And some of those lawyers turned out to be not.

[00:31:47] Yeah, buddy. Well, listen, you know, I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. You get it.

[00:31:53] Yeah. Will you take a call from me at eight o’clock at night? Do you work weekends? How many deals have you done with this particular buyer? Ok. What have been the things that delayed the deal? What was the biggest thing that delays deals with this buyer? Do you have a list of questions involved in the due diligence process that you have that could prepare us for this, right? And the moment I asked that question within 15 minutes, I got a list of questions sent to me by notes. I asked everyone else that. I asked everyone else that, and they said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what notes did is they sent me that list of questions and that I felt that was prior to hiring them and that I just felt that, you know, it was one of those little boxes that they tipped to say, This is nice, right? This is very proactive. Whether you proceed with us or not, you are going to need to answer all of these questions. So the first thing that we did is started working through those questions even before we’d we’d engage them. So we went through that whole process. And then, what’s the due diligence? It’s the worst 90 days you’re ever going to experience in any in business, right? It really is. It depends how detailed you go, right? But right down to every little financial detail, everything that every item that’s been through the business, right? Every little line item in your finances. Ok, I learnt more about my business in that 90 days than I did in the last five years.

[00:33:22] Yeah. Interesting.

[00:33:23] And had I known everything I knew about my business, our business in the last five years, we’d have done things slightly differently.

[00:33:36] Yeah, yeah. It’s just an example of one of those things.

[00:33:41] If I just take one simple thing which comes down to the way we the way. We pay our associates, OK, so we pay our associates on cash received and not work completed. Ok, so you might think, well, what’s what’s the big deal there, right? Patient comes along, pays us four grand for also treatment on day one. Our associate has done a bond. Ok? Ok, so have they completed foregrounds worth the work? Absolutely not. But why? Let’s say the wrong 50 percent. They get their two grand minus the lab bill or whatever, right? So they get their money upfront. Ok. Now, just just from that perspective alone, from a cash flow perspective, had we paid our associates or our team based on work completed rather than cash received, a cash flow game would be completely different. Ok? Tiny little things like that. The other thing I’ll tell you about is when you go through every single cost in your zero accounts and you look at every single invoice and you do it because you have to at this point, right? You don’t do it because it’s a it’s an exercise that you just kind of like scoot over and you don’t go into much detail. You figure out there’s a few standing orders there that you should have cancelled maybe 12 months ago. Yeah. Below the radar amounts a hundred quid there, 200 quid there or whatever, right? We could have probably had our finger on the on the ball a little a little bit closer.

[00:35:11] But because of the way the business was growing was scaling. There were other problems that we had to solve and fix those tiny details, probably, you know, didn’t matter as much. But but there’s a lot of things that we could have done during that whole process that would have made made running the business smoother. But here’s a point. Here’s here’s a thought Payman. We’ve been through this 90 day process of deep due diligence. Now imagine and this is this is a concept whenever we do anything like this or always try and cast myself into nature. Imagine you run your practise every day using the systems and processes, documenting everything in a way that you decided to exit tomorrow and partner with somebody that all your due diligence was done. It was done OK. And I mean, to the fact that the way you keep your records and all your team members right down to the hepatitis B vaccination, their passport details their CRB. Absolutely every detail documented to the nth degree. Yeah, every little bit of your insurance, your lease, this, that and the other, right? Had I known all of that, I would have run my business exit ready. Every month year, I’m not something that I want to sort of an interesting idea.

[00:36:32] Interesting idea. But you know, it’s it’s it’s not it’s not normality, is it? It’s not. It’s not what normal normal businesses do. But why tell me why? Tell me why. Tell me why did? But what’s the what’s the huge benefit?

[00:36:46] The huge benefit is every single month. You know what your business is worth? Number one, OK? You know that. And if you know that OK, and it’s the same with every KPI, let’s let’s go away from dentistry. Let’s go to bench press. Ok? So if I’m bench pressing every Monday, right, and tomorrow I start with an eight kilo bench press, OK, and I document that Prav bench press eight to kilos last Monday, and they three Mondays later is bench press in eight to five kilos any documents. And if you document that stat every single Monday, what do you think is going to happen to that number? It’s going to go up and up. It’s going to go up because you’re measuring it and you’re documenting it, right? And that’s the same thing with that. The other benefit is that if you ever got to the point where you said, right now, we’re ready to partner with somebody. Can you imagine can you imagine going to your potential partner and say, by the way, here’s the thirty five folders that you’re going to need for due diligence? Ok? It’s probably going to take you about 20 days to work your way through that, but I’ve just saved myself 90 to one hundred to one hundred and twenty days of hell. But during that whole process

[00:38:02] Is also also, I guess, you look better right to the potential buyer. You look like a much more professional organisation with without question.

[00:38:11] You know, there was a few comments that came back from Dental, which were the level and depth and detail of organisation and the way we presented everything to them. Yeah, they were incredibly impressed with the way that that was all handled. Ok. So there is that and you know, at the end of the day, they’re making an investment as well, right? They need to be clear that they’re choosing the right partner as well as us. Yeah. So, yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, it looks better. But you run your business better. You spot these little issues better. And if there’s anything that’s going to come out of this experience, rather in addition to, you know, having achieved this goal that we’ve we’ve we’ve achieved during the process, right, is that I do want to put together some kind of education that allows practise owners a deeper insight into the process, the pitfalls, what’s involved in the due diligence, what they can do today to get their business ready for the next next stage and what sort of questions they should be asking themselves and thinking,

[00:39:15] Hmm, I study very nice. I mean, and I guess that applies to any business, right? And you didn’t have any NHS element in your. Nothing like this, did you? Nothing. No. So that complicated because that’s another thing that, you know, I know in selling practise that becomes a whole headache and time wasting

[00:39:36] A whole headache, right? And the reason the reason there was no NHS. And I believe there was when Kyle Peche bought one of his earlier practises. And he’s always been a believer of the fact that you can’t offer a two tier service in a single business. And look, a lot of people do OK. But it’s always been his vision that we don’t do two tiers here. There’s one tier and it’s that minimum high standard that we offer and nothing lower. Hmm.

[00:40:06] Yeah. Let’s move on, Duke, let’s move on to where we are today compared to this time last year, when we sat, Boris had just cancelled Christmas. If you remember the Delta variant, it’s just hit. And here we are again on on with the corona situation. I don’t know about you, dude, but to me, just anecdotally, I’m hearing about more people getting this than I’ve ever heard before. And yet when we look at South Africa, which is furthest forward on this, it looks like there aren’t as many hospitalisations and so forth. And I think, you know, if we it’s easy to worry about this sort of thing a lot and we should, of course. But compared to this time last year, when it was Delta, when we didn’t, we weren’t sure about all the growth that every Dental business must have seen in this period. I think we’re in a better place compared to that. I mean, it’s been an extraordinary year, as far as you know. Look at it from from my perspective, I see people are doing dead a lot more private dentistry and enlightens one of those businesses that kind of kind of tracks private dentistry. And you know, you’ve

[00:41:22] Got the money on the head there, buddy, because whenever I speak to a practise, you know what? One of the first questions I ask them, how much whitening do you do? Yeah. How much whitening do you do? Do you track the number of white things that you do a month or a week? Right? And I truly believe that it is an indicator of private Dental, almost like a KPI, a benchmark. We use it all the time, right? How many whitening starts do we do? How many fingers starts do we do? So if your numbers have gone up in lights, then that’s a benchmark for the industry.

[00:41:51] For private, for sure, for sure, for sure. And I think it’s a lot of a lot of NHS, Baxter said then. Let’s face it relatively well out of the pandemic and you know, they obviously had. They’ve got right now this question of heading the 65 percent. And I think that going forward, the NHS side is is looking a little bit ropey. No one knows exactly how it’s going to pan out. But I think one thing we can all say is there’s not going to be any new money for NHS dentistry. It’s very, very unlikely, isn’t it? I mean, people do kind of think there’ll be different versions of the core service, whether whether that’s government imposed or whether that’s just the way practise set themselves up to have NHS as a core service. Mm hmm. But what I’ve seen a lot of in this year is a bunch of ex, you know, very NHS practises trying to set up private sides, trying to increase their private revenue, both on the corporate and on the independent side. I see I see that going on the private side. It seems like people have been, you know, making hay. And you know, I’ve had some of our users come back and say, Oh, look, things have slowed down a little bit now. Yeah. And you know, sure, things have slowed down a little bit now, but we forget there was always seasonality in dentistry. We just got so used to just these massive growth numbers. Yeah, how about you? What do you see with your clients?

[00:43:19] So we’ve seen we’ve seen huge growth, right, not only in my own practises, but with my clients across the board. I don’t think I work with anyone who offers NHS dentistry as a mainstream service, if that makes sense. If anything, it’s it’s tacked on because it’s either historic or it’s children or it’s minimal or whatever that is. I’ve had a lot of enquiries for coaching from people who want to transition from NHS to private.

[00:43:48] A lot now

[00:43:49] A lot and just the unknown, the minefield. What what does their education need to look like? What courses do they need to book in? You know, everything ranging from, you know, how to start at the beginning and get there. But on the private side of things, the growth has been in say OK, and there doesn’t seem to be any sign of it stopping and pay. I’m talking everything from from whitening and just a little bit of a white feeling here in there right through to, you know, ab type stuff, more complex restorative dentistry right through to those who have in sort of a full mouth of, you know, immediate loaded implant dentistry, you know, right at the top end of the scale where people are investing north of 30 40 K on their teeth, right? And we’re getting more people saying yes, yes, yes, right?

[00:44:43] Private does private kids also as well a few of your clients?

[00:44:47] Few of my clients, I mean, we we’ve run a few campaigns for just targeting mums, right? I think we’ve spoken about this in the past, right? And, you know, call me sexist or whatever, right? But when you target mums, you get a high conversion rate of kids ortho. But once again, a huge upsurge in that, well, you know, it’s probably down to the fact that, you know, similar sort of demand less of a supply. Ok. Longer waiting lists, maybe stricter criteria. And then the other thing that anecdotally here all the time for my clients is that they get a lot of patients coming through who are saying the reason they’ve decided to change their smile is Zoom. Yeah. And I’m not talking about your competitor whitening product here, mate. I’m talking about the the video conferencing, right, is on Zoom. They’re looking at their teeth all the time and they’ve become aware of it and then they want to change something. And this is so many of my clients who sign a reason for patients going ahead is seeing themselves on video.

[00:45:48] Yeah, well, you say you say you don’t see any signs of it slowing down, but we’ve got to acknowledge some of the concerns as well going forward. I mean, and you know, I think last year we all became virologists. This year, a lot of us are becoming economists, the economists, you know? Yeah. Well, you know, we’ve got this the inflation sort of situation, you know, there’s wage inflation, massive wage inflation. Yeah, loads of practises, not able to retain staff because staff are decided to go to other jobs that aren’t as difficult and pay paid the same. And I don’t think it’s only in dentistry. I think it’s across the board. We see it in our business as well, people, people asking for bigger pay rises and all of that. But but in in all businesses and then a shortage of skilled labour, there’s definitely a shortage of people willing to come and work. Yeah. Whether it’s Brexit, that’s caused that. But I do understand it’s the same situation in the US. Although, you know, Trump wasn’t exactly friendly to immigration, either, so I don’t know. Going forward, you know, we have to pay for COVID. Let’s imagine it gets easier from here. Who knows? Yeah, let’s imagine it gets the actual clinical medical situation gets easier. We have to pay for it somehow. And then on our side, look, we’ve had big issues with supplying product. You know that our supplier supplier can’t supply him some raw material. And again, across the board, you can see this. It’s the first time ever that Amazon problems they’ve ever had in my life.

[00:47:27] Look, we’re getting a little bit of work done at home, right and building supplies, materials, things like that, right? You know, we had a quote to have some work done at home. There was a bit of delay in getting the materials across and then and then our builder came and said, Look, I’m going to have to increase the quote by 20 percent, and there’s absolutely nothing I can do. It’s because the cost of materials have gone up. Yeah, and and he wasn’t trying to pull a fast one. You know, it cost the

[00:47:54] Cost of everything you. It was a

[00:47:56] Genuine, you know, sorry, Prav. But this is what it’s going to cost. You know, the labour had stayed the same and everything. And you know, we’re seeing it in practise now that when you’re looking to, for example, employ a nurse or a higher team member, the pool of people or at least the volume of that pool and quality of that pool is much, much smaller. Ok. Yeah. And some are going elsewhere into other industries. Some have had just sort of life changing moments. Yeah, you know, COVID has lockdown. Covid has given us all a chance to sit back and and sort of think what I want to do in my life. But do I really want to be socking spit for the rest of my life? Or would you rather do something, whatever, whatever that is, you know, you all have those moments where you think, you know, you reassess what you want to do even during this process where you know, I was, you know, thinking about the the other end of the reward that comes out of selling a business right is that you end up in a financial position that you become more stable. Yeah, it meant that I could afford to take less share of people. Yeah. Do you understand what I mean that that that you can you can actually turn around and actually turn more down, or you can tell someone to go take a hike and find another provider because because you’re a little bit more comfortable now, right? Same thing with with team members, right, is they have a reassessment of of what they want out of life, right? And what their priorities are and maybe flip over to other careers and things like that. And I think in dentistry, we are going to see certainly across the board a hike in overheads when it comes to wages, for sure, for sure. And it’s inevitable it’s going to come. And I think if we don’t talk about it, we’re just we’re just skirting around that issue.

[00:49:53] And I think around that you feel Prav because I think it may be high time for it. And I know it’s a strange thing to say. But but since the 2008 2009 recession, wages have really been quite stagnant. I know some practises give pay rises every year and a lot of that. I’m not happy about it to tell you the truth, you know, because it’s a pressure on on on employers, right? Yeah. But I do think that it might be high time and certainly your money just doesn’t go as far. There’s no way

[00:50:29] That we know that right. The money printers been going off like like the clappers, right? You know, we’ve got inflation. We’ve, you know, we’ve just heard from the Fed that they’re going to reduce tapering as well.

[00:50:41] And yeah, you know,

[00:50:43] Everything is just pointing to the fact that, you know. The cost of living, yeah, your bottle of milk, let let’s just take this down to brass tacks, right? What does it mean? Yeah. Is that your your bottle of milk is now going to be 10 quid instead of two? Right? It’s not. The money is not going to stretch as far. Yeah. And as a result of that, then people need to live and earn, right.

[00:51:07] And so I don’t think it’s going to go to ten quid. No, I don’t think I’m

[00:51:11] Overexaggerating here, right?

[00:51:15] But you’ve you’ve never lived, you’ve never lived through or you weren’t old enough to remember an inflationary period, have you? Were you? No, I have. No, I do. I remember. It’s terrible. It’s terrible when it happens. And one thing I would say to inflation is very nice. If you’re a big borrower, you know, if you’ve got two million pounds of debt on your house or something, suddenly that number doesn’t seem as scary anymore when all prices of everything, all assets go up. You know, I do think it’s a potential worry. And, you know, I think we’ve been living kind of on this printed cash and and, you know, corona. Covid hasn’t yet played out financially, let alone. I mean, we don’t medically, financially, it hasn’t yet played out. And and I think we’ve been extremely lucky as a profession so far to be able to navigate it. As I said to you before, I’ve got friends who own pubs and nightclubs and all that say navigating it very easily at all. But going forward, I think you’re right that, you know, we need to soberly look at it. And then, you know, the questions have been going on the forums. You know, who’s going to pay this extra? Have you ever seen that? Who’s going to pay for this extra money? Is it going to be the principal or is it going to be the associate? And I think there’s going to be new models that, you know, whether it’s a therapist led, you know, we see that a lot in my area and composite bonding. You’ve got some therapists, you know who you know, that’s all they do all day, every day. And from a principals perspective, that’s that’s quite attractive idea, right? You can, you know, you can get the money that way, I guess, and the associate principal disputes that have been happening in the last year. I think for now, maybe that the pendulum swung towards associate. But we have to be careful because if you know, if a practise owner can’t make the thing pay, he’s going to try and find new business models, right? You’ve got to

[00:53:19] Adapt, right? The one thing about about being a business owner, right, is I truly believe that owning a business is just about solving problems. There’s nothing more to it than that, right? You just you just fixing things and solving problems all day long, right? And you know, if you’re hit with something that makes your cost base go up, you’ve got to fix that problem. Yeah. However, that may be either increasingly the end cost to the consumer or adjusting your business model or a combination of the two or whatever. That is right. You sit back as a business owner and analyse how you’re going to how are you going to solve that problem? Ok. And that may end up adapting itself as business models. I mean, I’ve got I’ll say this without without spilling the beans because I think could shoot me if I, if I, if I shared this information with anyone. But you know, he’s trusted me with with some information about how he’s going to change his business model in his practise, going from one to seven practises, how he’s going to scale up, and he’s come up with a really unique model of how he’s going to deliver the industry. Ok, and he’s thinking four or five years ahead, a real, a real maverick, really, in terms of how he thinks ahead. When I look at that and the way he’s thinking, Yeah, I think, holy crap, that guy’s got some big balls, right? He knows that I take some risks. Yeah, but if what he’s thinking plays off and I’m pretty confident if anyone can do it, he can. Yeah, yeah, he’ll monopolise in the methodology and he’ll be first to market in terms of the way he and his team deliver a certain type of dentistry. So business models will change because we’ll be forced to write and some of them, some of us are thinkers that think ahead of the curve and some of us are reactive who respond to that situation. But change is inevitable.

[00:55:12] How about of your clients? Prav is do you see a shift from big practises to smaller ones?

[00:55:20] What do you mean?

[00:55:21] You know, because, well, because the cost base of big practises just seems to be so difficult. I mean. Well, let me let me go back a little bit. I think there was there was some thinking that you needed the size to get the sort of the, you know, what they called economies of scale before, you know, corporates were looking at three three surgery practises as a minimum. But now I see a little trend more going towards sort of boutique practises, you know?

[00:55:46] You know what it is, pay a lot, a lot of it comes down to actually, you know, what’s your business model? What are you doing? You know, you could have a small boutique practise that just focuses on high Typekit dentistry. Ok. So that income, yeah, you don’t need the economies of scale to deal with that. And then I work with some practises who pride themselves on doing a lot of general dentistry. And from that general dentistry, they generate their cosmetic dentistry. About 50 percent of their income is general and 50 percent of their income is high. Typekit dentistry, right? So their cost base is much higher. Ok. They need the economies of scale, et cetera, et cetera. You set up a boutique practise and say, Look, I’m going to focus my business on AB Implant Dentistry. You can go down the route of like the equivalent of the Evo Dental, who only do same day immediate loaded teeth, right? We are that it’s a specialist centre in inverted commas. Yeah. The only focus on that one high ticket thing and we do it well, right? So you know, you don’t you don’t need that entirely depends on your business model. Yeah. And you know, there’s a lot to be said for these practises who do. Yeah, a lot of general dentistry. I tend to find myself that those practise owners that focus on doing a lot of general dentistry and a little bit of cosmetic dentistry is generally happier as human beings.

[00:57:14] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, whether it’s the you can see the lack of the

[00:57:20] Lack of stress associated with those with those bigger ticket or more demanding patients, or the fact that they’re comfortable and complacent with whatever it is, they’re generating and doing their general and minimal sort of high ticket dentistry. But generally, as human beings, much more content, much happier.

[00:57:37] Well, while you’ve been gone Prav, I’ve changed some of the final questions. Ok, so I want to I want to quickly throw one at you, all of the mother. Fancy dinner party, buddy.

[00:57:59] Fantasy Dinner Party,

[00:58:02] Three guests dead or alive. Prav who would be your three guests, please? Dinner for a dinner party.

[00:58:13] Who? Elon Musk, for sure, for sure.

[00:58:20] Why? Why? Because look after the winner.

[00:58:24] No, not necessarily.

[00:58:25] But anyone who is history, go listen.

[00:58:28] Anyone who’s crazy enough to say that we’re going to populate Mars. Ok with conviction and take life onto their right thinks in a way above and beyond and completely different to the way we do, right? And then the guy, you know? And then he reinvented electric cars, right? You’re not going to be having normal conversations with this dude. You see some of the stuff he puts out on Twitter writes a little bit wacky. Yeah, I like it. Of course it’s going to. Of course it’s going to be wacky. Do you expect normal stuff to come out of this dude? Yeah.

[00:59:03] So, yeah,

[00:59:04] He he definitely be one. Yeah.

[00:59:08] And number two, interesting, buddy. If you’re interested, Elon’s done a couple of Joe Rogan’s. Yeah, yeah. I’ve seen three hour Joe Don, who second.

[00:59:19] Arnold Schwarzenegger, you got.

[00:59:22] Yeah, because he’s got muscle.

[00:59:25] Well, childhood hero, right? And look, if you if you was, he was he was he God? Yeah, for sure, right? And you know, in my younger years, I was into bodybuilding and all the rest of it, right? Oh, good. So, you know, definitely would love to sort of catch up with him and just learn more about where he came from and from wisdom. Very motivational guy, right? For sure. Third, jeez, man, put me on the spot here, buddy. Hmm.

[00:59:58] I know it is. Go granddad, my granddad.

[01:00:03] You know what? The moment you said that? You arsehole, man. Sorry. It’s my granddad.

[01:00:17] Yeah. Finally.

[01:00:30] No need to say anything more, buddy.

[01:00:34] It’s a beautiful body. Listen, it’s who he’s

[01:00:38] Been and buddy. You’re not getting away with this man.

[01:00:47] Trying to get out of that man

[01:00:51] Who he was.

[01:00:54] It’s strange because I’ve asked this question many times already, and I haven’t yet fully worked out my answer. But the first guy is the guy whose name I don’t know who’s the guy behind Red Bull. Ok, you don’t, you know? No, I do that, dude. There’s a guy. There’s a guy. And I kind of like the fact that I don’t know his name. I wish I could google it right now and find out, right? But but I like the fact that I don’t know his name and that he’s got brand, the head of, you know, ego to get ahead of his own name. And, you know, often we think with, you know, who owns Tesla, Elon Musk, but there’s loads of massive brands. We don’t know who owns the Nike, you know, I mean, I know some some people do know that, but there are some brands where the brand takes precedence over the personality. And I really, by the way, I’m not even a massive fan of Red Bull, the product, but the brand, what he’s done with it and just the thought process to go into that market with the with the incumbent Coca-Cola and Pepsi to take them on with this little can and and the marketing, the marketing, you know that you don’t see a can of Red Bull in the marketing at all, right? You know that they’re riding motorbikes off cliffs and jumping out of space ships.

[01:02:19] Yeah. And then of late, I mean, you are not sports fans. Yeah, but he’s bought two or three football teams. And part of it is change the names of the football teams to Red Bull first and then the name of the football team. He’s got one in the American. You know that that thing they’ve got going on in America and in Europe, he’s got a couple of team and of course, Formula One F1 number one. I’m not a big fan, but just the thinking that those play in races. Yeah, yeah. So definitely him. Let’s go to your Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was my hero back then. I got the ice to love Prince. I was a massive fan. Yeah, I have friends, for sure. For sure. I’m. And my grandmother, my grandmother, your mother said my grandmother or my mother had a very special relationship with her. It is a bit of a copout, but but you know, it is, it is what it is. What do you remember? Oh, it is a really funny lady, really caring, but funny, funny. One of the funniest people I’ve ever come across. Do you know what was that cartoon show? Penelope Pit Stop.

[01:03:37] And that dastardly and morally wrong.

[01:03:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and the get off that laugh that the dog might be like my grandmother, whatever she was say she was, she would laugh like that. Or, you know, she’d she’d be so funny that, you know, that’s what I always remember her as the laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. It’s been nice, buddy. It’s been nice.

[01:04:02] It’s been good to catch up and there’s going to be, yeah, the resurrection of the Prav and pay again.

[01:04:09] We’re going to do this podcast

[01:04:10] Together this year, for sure,

[01:04:12] Right? Let’s hope.

[01:04:13] My focus, you know, my my focus is definitely is definitely changing for twenty twenty two. So, you know, they’ll definitely be more present. Anyone who knows that I’ve been online prior to that, I completely disappeared from Facebook and Instagram, right? Those who know me will know why I went into a hole and just went as I do, you know, 100 percent into this project. And as a result of that, against my best advice that I would give to others, put my health. Second, you know, and things like that. And so things are going to go into a different gear now and you’ll see more of me.

[01:05:03] It’s lovely to have you back, buddy, you know, and I think going forward, we’ve been working on a bunch of stuff that enlighten and I’ve been thinking, You know, why don’t I give something back to this community? Because, you know, a lot of times I’m on a course or something and people come up to me and say, I listen to every single episode. And, you know, if you’re listening to the end of this one, then good because I’m going to be making some announcements with enlightened and making sure this community benefits from those enhancements, giving some free stuff out there. Good. All right, buddy. Well, I’ll see you in twenty twenty two, I guess. I guess that’s the way it’s going to be. It is, but it is. We’re here.

[01:05:45] We’re at the end. I’ve signed off for the year. Officially, I haven’t. That’s all that’s me doing. I’ve got to give back to my family, right? I’ve certainly neglected them over the last three months, so it’s time to it’s time to kiss and make up.

[01:06:01] Nice. All right. All right. My lovely, lovely having you back.

[01:06:03] But this is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:06:21] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

[01:06:36] If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:06:46] And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] Phobic patients who basically just need time. So many of them, so I’ve done sedation training in the last few years, but so many of my sedation patients, we sedate them initially and I try and wean them off it. That’s kind of my goal, and that is life changing treatment. I have a guy who he wouldn’t let us take photos even in the waiting room. He cried, coming up the stairs the first time he ever came in and he wouldn’t sit in a chair. It was traumatic just for him to come in the practise.

[00:00:29] We did

[00:00:30] A fair amount treatment under sedation, and then a couple of months ago, we placed two lower implants

[00:00:34] With no station and

[00:00:36] Us and

[00:00:37] Fulfilling. Isn’t it

[00:00:38] So good? So, so good?

[00:00:45] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:02] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Alan Bergin onto the podcast, a.k.a. the The Cornish dentist. Nice to have you, buddy.

[00:01:11] Hey, Payman. Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:01:14] It’s a pleasure to have you, buddy. I’ve come across your work mainly on Instagram, and I’ve got to hand it to you that that’s a great page. You’ve got going on the dot dot doesn’t matter. The Cornish Dental is what I love about it is that, you know, you kind of almost breaking the rules of Instagram in a way. It’s not quantity, it’s quality. Whereas, you know, a lot of people think I have to post every day and you’re not you’re not posting

[00:01:39] Anywhere near that that amount.

[00:01:41] But every time you post, it’s it’s a pleasure to go through what you’ve got there. And for me, I tend to break down dentists. I mean, it’s a dentist page, really, isn’t it? It’s not. It’s not a patient page, but I tend to break down dentistry. It’s almost like breadth or depth. And you it’s almost you’ve got both going on, which is really difficult to pull off so many different aspects of dentistry going hot on that page. But let’s let’s let’s get to the to the sort of the origin story. Where did you grow up? Why dentistry? What kind of?

[00:02:18] So yeah, I grew up in the south east in Surrey and pretty normal, normal upbringing. I went to a school in Reigate, played quite a lot of rugby. My dad was an engineer. He sort of worked his way up. He came out of out of school with pretty minimal qualifications and through hard graft and whatever worked his way up to doing well in engineering. And my mom actually was a dental therapist and talk therapy even in London, probably like thirty five plus years ago.

[00:02:54] Oh, and which is interesting

[00:02:56] Because, you know, my wife’s a therapist and, you know, they have the same discussions that they were having 35 years ago about their involvement and all that sort of thing. But you know, it wasn’t that classic of, you know, mums in the industry and you move, move, follow in their footsteps. I really wasn’t that aware of what she was doing and actually she wasn’t in dentistry when she had me. My sister’s three years older and she sort of finished finished that between the two of us. And then she had worked in a nursery in the nursery school for 20 odd years. So, yeah, I grew up in in and around Raleigh, in Reigate, and then went to university in Cardiff. Let me stay with you. Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:42] What made you do dentistry? How did it? Was it your mum was? It was that it really wasn’t.

[00:03:46] And actually, I didn’t didn’t even really start chatting dentistry until I was doing it with with her. And I think that was that’s kind of my sort of parents style of upbringing, I think the whole way through. They’ve always been there to sort of guide and help. But at the same time, in no way said, do this do that, they’re really been there are great in that way. And actually, it was I had a great dentist that I went to religiously every six months and there was never anything wrong. And you know, I can imagine my mum was pretty on top of our teeth and everything. So then I went to her braces and I kind of all of a sudden I was like, Oh, this is this is different. This is this is still teeth. And actually, to be fair, I walked up the orthodontist practise and I think there was like a BMW and Mercedes couple, the nice cars at the front. Oh, this is interesting. And then so I actually did some work experience in engineering because I was doing the sciences and whatever. My dad was like, Oh, maybe you know, you might like engineering and it wasn’t for me. So next door to our school was a really top private Dental practise just by a complete fluke. And I just I just went in there one day and said, You know, I’m kind of interested and I might be doing dentistry, just wondering if I could come and shadow you at this lady in there for a bit.

[00:05:22] And lady called Jill Nightingale just an incredible dentist, actually just the loveliest lady. And she said, Yeah, sure. So I went and saw her, I think, for like a day or whatever. And back then it was all about you, as it is now, I’m sure. But the UCAS application and trying to show your interest and something a bit different. And I had I think it’s like a double or triple free period every Friday. And I just I said to Joe, You know, can I? I’m literally next door. Can I come in for, I don’t know, a couple of months, just every Friday morning and watch you? She is. She’s totally on board with it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I just went and observed her. Asked her loads of questions, probably got in the way of it, but she, you know. One thing actually, she said to me that I always remembered was, she said, you know, I reckon about 50 percent of dentists hate their job and about 50 percent love it. It doesn’t matter what you do, just make sure you’re in the right 50 percent and that that kind of stuck with me all the way through, really. So that that sort of sparked my interest here.

[00:06:33] I remember Alan Gilmore in Cardiff saying something like that as well. Yeah. And yeah, yeah. So, so true, isn’t it? Because, you know, if you could bottle your enthusiasm for teeth and you know, I’m sure, you know, we’ll get onto that. You can bottle that. You can you can teach, you can, you can talk about it. But I guess it’s something to do with continuous improvement, though.

[00:06:59] Yeah. Yeah, I think absolutely, absolutely.

[00:07:04] And that’s what we all want to get back. I want to get back to your childhood quickly. It’s a pleasure. If you don’t mind. But you know, I listen to your podcast with jazz, and I think everyone should, because I’d rather not just covered the same, the same thing I’m glad to get. But what came through that podcast for me was your just confidence as a person, not not talking about dentistry, but as a person, total confidence. And have you got a kid?

[00:07:31] Yeah, yeah. 16 month old little boy.

[00:07:34] Ok. Early, early. But I’ve got I’ve got kids. And you know, in the end,

[00:07:39] What better thing can you do

[00:07:40] For your kids than give them confidence?

[00:07:43] So do you remember

[00:07:44] Being not confident ever? And then a moment of inflexion? Or were you just always naturally that that kid?

[00:07:52] You know, I don’t think I was that kid. I mean, in some circumstances, yeah, for sure. But my my dad, he’s one of his big hobbies. When he, when we were younger, was acting and he was at this local theatre group, that was great. And my sister went there every weekend and did this little workshop and quite a few of our little friends did. So I went along with them because they were doing it, and I just never really clicked for me. I just didn’t have that get on stage and be the confident guy. I don’t know if it’s confidence or just didn’t click with these people. I don’t know. But I didn’t gel into that into that group, so I definitely didn’t feel that. Yeah, confidence at that stage. But then, you know,

[00:08:43] Do you remember, when do you remember when you did? I mean, you’re definitely a very confident person, a doubt about that, right?

[00:08:50] You know, reflecting on that podcast with jazz was when we chatted all the way through. I sat back afterwards from that and thought, Do you know what? Actually, the majority of my kind of career and progression has basically been a series of high pressure situations that are sink or swim. And so far I’ve been swimming. But some of them, I think, were close to the mark

[00:09:15] Of,

[00:09:17] You know, actually actually getting through it. And I remember times in I did a maxillofacial year. I remember walking over to the ward once going down to A&E and I did it in Newport, which was

[00:09:31] There was, I think I’ve been to the hospital. Yeah, the hospital was a plenty of

[00:09:37] Plenty of trauma to work on there. Amazing place to work for a year, for sure. But I remember striding down the hallway with my staff grade and she said this is the vertical part of the learning slope. And so I would say, I say it probably initially stemmed from team team sport, you know, being in with the rugby guys. And yeah, as always, not the loudest guy, but I was having a joke and a laugh. And yeah, I definitely felt confident in those scenarios, for sure.

[00:10:15] When you when you pick Cardiff, did you pick Cardiff because you knew about the rugby?

[00:10:19] No, no, no, no. So I don’t know. So there’s that situation. I think it was like four or five universities and I put down Leeds, Cardiff, Sheffield somewhere else. And then my last one, I was saying to my mom was like, Oh my go. I like Manchester or Newcastle. And she went, You know, like my parents guided me, but they weren’t in any way push you on anything which was like, Why don’t you? Why don’t you think about

[00:10:53] Kings, which is like,

[00:10:55] You know, forty five minutes away? I was like, What? What she’s like? You basically picked the four universities at the furthest away from Surrey. Why you think about kings? I thought, Why don’t we go kings is like,

[00:11:07] Well, you know, they

[00:11:08] They look a bit more on personal statement. I think I was like, I don’t think I’m going to get the grades they’re. Thanks.

[00:11:13] Thanks for the service.

[00:11:17] And so I did put things down, I did put it, but yeah, I got I got, you know what it was actually. In all honesty, I went to the open day at Cardiff and I went and had the interview and I just really in the interview waiting room and all the other places. It was kind of like, no one’s talking to each other, just sitting with your parent you’re with and focus on the interview. Cardiff it was like all the young people sitting around a big table, just having a chat and getting on with each other. And I thought, Yeah, this is this is my mix of people, to be honest.

[00:11:55] It’s such a great city. I mean, the Welsh themselves and Nakumatt. I mean, I’ve travelled up and down the country and there are good people in a lot of different places to tell you the truth. I mean, there are different types of characters right in. In Liverpool, you get loads of funny Scousers. Everyone’s a comedian and everyone’s got some sort of side hustle going on. But in Cardiff, the warmth of that

[00:12:18] Community of of Welsh

[00:12:20] People and and you worked in Rhondda as well, right? Yeah, the whole other oh even more a deeper sort of family sort of situation. I just love the Welsh band. It’s stuck with me since, you know, I left long before you did, but just wonderful people.

[00:12:39] It’s one of those ones, though, that I’ve got so many great friends still that well, of course, they all still live there because none of them leave, in fact. So we went on, we went on a sports day once to Leeds. We at one of the boys, I think he was in the fifth year. He was getting a little panicky as we’re getting towards the bridge. Let’s see what’s up.

[00:13:03] He’s like. I got my passport.

[00:13:08] He never left way of getting to touch about it, but yeah, so. Brilliant, brilliant group of how

[00:13:16] Do you find Dental school?

[00:13:18] I loved it. You know, I wouldn’t say it was certainly wasn’t top of the class. It wasn’t bottom. I was just in the middle doing OK, trying to find a balance social, I guess with with education, and made it to most of the lectures, pretty much pretty much all lectures. But I think I definitely I definitely enjoyed it more when we got to the sort of hands on endowment, that was more me.

[00:13:47] Yeah.

[00:13:48] How did you meet your now wife there as well?

[00:13:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, so she was I was in second year and she was first year. We had a couple of joint lectures together. And it’s yeah, she’s from Cornwall originally. So. So we how we ended up here.

[00:14:07] So then tell me what you did after you qualified.

[00:14:09] So when I qualified, the first job I had was in max facts, and that was through a situation of mishaps in applying for Viti and just went horribly wrong. Just a nightmare. Basically had no other option. Literally one job, probably probably in the country, because I couldn’t. I didn’t have a NHS number, so I couldn’t do any of the DfT posts that had community with them, which was pretty much all of them. But there was one one matt fact post where basically the consultant there, great guy. John Llewellyn, small but fearsome consultant. I think the past, however many years, he was on a Tier two scheme and he’d effectively every dentist that did the first six months. He would pinch them for the second six months, and they kept losing out on this beauty spot. So they in the end just gave up and made it at 12 months max back post, but kept it as deaf, too. So. So that was pretty much the only job I could apply for. And just by complete fluke, I had a two week placement there about a month before the applications for that place and and my my very good friend who was partnered with she, she basically went up to him and said, This guy’s not got a job. You know, she’s she’s born and bred Welsh and the confidence in her. She just just had my back and said, This guy’s not got a job. He’s going, he’s applying for this place and then sort of looked at me like,

[00:15:50] Oh, right, okay, let’s

[00:15:52] Let’s test him out. See how it goes. And I had a few sort of string of successful things in that post, just like us taking out our wisdom teeth and that sort of thing. And then I applied for it and got it, which he never let me forget for the whole year, really, that he gave me that opportunity.

[00:16:12] And did you enjoy Max? I did the max factor job too in Cardiff and I I I hated every moment of it and really did. It just wasn’t for me. Did you enjoy it?

[00:16:22] I loved it. I did love

[00:16:24] It. I think there’s a few things that go with that. One was the the home team. We had a great group of people all really like in it together, you know, and there was none of this lazing around, handing over piles of patients. I lived with two of them who were two years above me in uni, so that was a great shoulder to cry on at the end of a long, long shift. But the other was it four or five of them, just just a really tight group of house. But we kind of had to be because I think we had like three. But no registrars for consultants, I think three staff grades. Well, one of the staff grades went off on maternity. Then we’re down to two. One of them went and did medicine. And then I think later on the other one did. And at one point for about a month, we had seven hos and four consultants, and that was it. And so it was a combination of, you know, the consultants getting pissed off when we called them about something very basic combined with what I really want to call them about this. So probably one of those first single swims,

[00:17:36] I think I’d recommend anyone to do it. Because it puts you in these situations that puts you under so much stress that then nothing else seems to stress to you after that.

[00:17:49] But yeah, for sure.

[00:17:50] For sure.

[00:17:51] Unfortunately for me, the first few patients we had passed

[00:17:55] Away, you know, after the

[00:17:56] Operation and I’d come straight in that situation, and the consultant was understandably stressed by the whole thing. And yeah, I found it really hard, man. I found it really, really difficult. But I still think it made a man in me. I do. I do think that, you know, I remember fracturing a few porosity back and my nurse just going berserk and eating like it was like no, nowhere near as bad as the things I’ve seen.

[00:18:27] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think I think it’s so true. Yeah, it does make a man. I mean, I remember a couple of just horrific traumas

[00:18:37] Where, yeah,

[00:18:40] Yeah, like attempted suicides. And oh, I mean, I remember going down to this one that I got a call for. Basically, it was it was bad, and I phoned my senior when I was walking down there and he was like, they said, It’s this and this and this, and I could kind of hear him on the other end. Oh my God. And he just said, Alright, try and maintain an airway, stop the bleeding. And if he dies, it’s not your fault. I was solid, solid advice on best. And yeah, those moments really do stick with you, as is like a not not.

[00:19:23] I think

[00:19:23] You’re right. You know, you can get shaken by that and go, Oh my God. But but other times you look back on it and go, Actually, this this this little bit of left route is probably not too bad, you know?

[00:19:34] Yeah, yeah. And it puts you in good stead. So your next job, you ended up doing quite a lot of ore surgery. Yeah, I can get yes, one,

[00:19:46] Yes, dear one. When I did it in the Rhondda Valley and in a little town called Treorchy

[00:19:55] And in that town, I think I ended up there once at 4am after a big party.

[00:20:05] It’s on me. It was great, you know, relatively low stress, I would say for what you’re what you’re trying to achieve in patients, but were lovely. But at the same time, some of them just like happy to be seen. And. But it was a bit of a reality check. You know, you come out of uni and you think I’m going to do this. So I’m going to I want to try and do the really good root canal. And and I suppose that was a good place to learn that situation of, you know, not everyone wants a root canal. And and I remember someone saying to us, once, you know, try not to care more about a patient’s teeth than they do because you’re going to you’re going to be tearing your hair out. I mean, yeah, all kinds of hilarious characters there, but absolutely brilliant place to learn just so much exposure.

[00:21:05] And yeah, he’s still living in Cardiff at that point.

[00:21:08] Yeah. Yeah, I was living in the bay there with Jess, my now wife. And so it was a nice, little nice little commute. Just drive up up to the valley each day as. 50 odd minutes and living down in the bay was, yeah, good fun.

[00:21:23] So you know that life of straight off the university, you’re still a new university town, you know, you kind of still got your sort of community around you and network around you. Look, I found my next job after that quite quite a bit of change. I felt lonely as a as a, you know, real person compared to the student, you know, nice sort of mix of people on VTi with me. Where did your first real job?

[00:21:54] Well, actually, so do maths facts. I’m sure you found this. You don’t really have any time to spend any money or live a life, basically. So I was earning a little bit, not much, but a little bit more than that. And no time to spend it. And that did my vote year. And Jess basically said to me, which is I’ve never been travelling and I’ve always wanted to. I thought, OK, I said, Let’s go, you know, end of this year, you’re never going to have a break in your contract ever again. You know, if it’s one year, that’s the end of that. And I’m like, Yeah, alright, cool. Six months into the details, let’s do it. We’re going to when we booked it and then I got towards the end. And yeah, towards the end of Beattie, my boss was saying, You know, I’ll offer you an associate position. Yes, I’ve come up with was how many thousands of eda’s and whatever it good money. Basically, I was thinking, Oh, that’s tempting, but we’ve bought this ticket, you know, so. So we did it. We went and best thing we ever did. I remember I was a bit a bit concerned at the time sort of thinking, you know, how am I going to come back and everyone else is going to

[00:23:08] Be way

[00:23:09] Ahead? My stunting, my career progression and whatever. And you know, all these silly things you think when you’re when you’re young, you know, I think, you know, you’ve been uni for five years and whatever you’re fresh out, you want to get going. I certainly did. Yeah, yeah. But we did it. We went, And where did you go? So start off Borneo and Bali for about a month. And then we went down to Australia a couple of weeks, five weeks New Zealand and then month in Thailand and month in Vietnam. And it’s just amazing. I just loved it, you know, and I think that was really good for me to not be so like, I think if I just got straight into it, I don’t know, maybe got a burn out or something, but it was a good slow down a bit and have a think about things. And from there we got we were getting towards the end of our travels and just said, you know, where do you want to, where you want to live? And I said, Oh, maybe sorry. And she said, Cornwall. So we ended up in Bath.

[00:24:10] So many of us were happy then, but then actually just absolutely loved Bath. And I remember sitting in this bar. Oh, amazing city. But we had to sort out flat before we got back. And before we went travelling, we printed off a load of CVS cover letters, and I think I had a few photos put together and we had them all ready to send out. And a month before he went back, we sent them out to every practise we would be happy to work at. I spend, I don’t know, 40 odd in the Bristol Bath area, but I remember sitting in a bar in Vietnam. Just Jess’s parents had very kindly gone to view some flats for us, and they were FaceTiming us looking around the flats. But they appeared to like travel between them and whatever, and we had to keep the internet connexion going. So we were buying these twenty three beers and getting more and more pissed. Looking at these flats, like, that’s amazing. I think we nearly signed up to something on the Royal Crescent through honest, but we got.

[00:25:19] How long were you away for in total? Was it

[00:25:20] Six months? Just under

[00:25:22] Six months? Yeah.

[00:25:24] So you spent all your savings? I’m pretty much what was it, backpacking packing, what were you thinking? From the husband on the one to a six month holiday?

[00:25:36] Do you know, full on, full on backpacking? I don’t know.

[00:25:42] You think sharing with others is that was it was like because the beach is so cheap over there. Yeah, because

[00:25:50] We were to actually like a joint room or shared room with one bed in. It is not it’s not that much more expensive, really. We stayed in a few dorm rooms and oh man, all those places. All those places. But you’ve got a camper in New Zealand. It was

[00:26:07] Amazing. Oh, wow. To do that whole South Island stuff.

[00:26:10] Oh yeah, I did the whole North Island, South Island five weeks.

[00:26:14] Incredible. Incredible. I mean, did you did you think about doing a year off before university?

[00:26:20] No. No, because I think I was really, I wouldn’t say overwhelmed. But I was very aware that like five year degree is a long time and one time actually that it kind of hit me, whereas I came back to Surrey just after we’d had. I don’t know if you had this, but we had like a halfway meal at two and a half years to celebrate getting halfway through the degree of sort of like miserable reminder. And I came back to Surrey and we went I was on a night out in London with just like guys from school, and they’d all finished their degree. I think they’d all just got like their first and second pay cheque and they were like, Yeah, let’s buy this place up, you know, getting the rounds in like, Oh, I don’t know if I can afford the train ticket home like, you know, uni dry patch there and that I found quite tough, actually, because I was thinking, Do you know what? I’m halfway through this degree, and all my friends are like hitting the earning now, and how am I going to catch that up and whatever? And actually then I think that’s when I kind of like solidified into with all the Dental people and whatever, you know, before that, I was living with guys from outside dentistry, which is kind of healthy, I think, for the first few years. Yeah. And then after that, yeah, really sort of got in with the Dental guys

[00:27:43] And tell me about the top in Bath.

[00:27:47] So yeah, Bath, I I got a job we live in in Bath, but I work just outside in a little town called caution. Fairly standard mixed practise. It was like two three surgeries, two associates and the hygienist and I guess it was kind of

[00:28:03] Associate led really

[00:28:04] The the owner. He had a single surgery practise on the circus in Bath, doing pretty much all only implants. And it’s great, you know, it kind of left the Dorian thing. I think I just did enough to keep the boss happy. So ticking over and that’s where I did my implant, MSI, which I couldn’t. I was a bit torn where to go, you know, I think it was like Sheffield London or Bristol, and it’s an expensive course combined with all the time off and everything. I was like, I can’t really decide between them, so I might as well do Bristol. It’s the closest and it just so happens that like pretty much all the clinical days, which is eighty five percent of the course was in

[00:28:45] Bath, about 500

[00:28:47] Yards down the road. So I felt really jammy when some people were like flying from Scotland. I think this lady from like the Isle of Man or something, and

[00:28:57] Anyway, travelling all

[00:28:59] This distance today for one day to take a suture out, you know, and I was just nipping back for lunch. So that was massively convenient. And also because my boss was heavily into his implants, he could kind of he just had an agreement with me that he’d mentor me, which I only realised later was pretty an economical way of doing things because mentoring is pretty expensive. And he basically said, Look, I won’t charge you, but as long as you once you once you get the hang of it, I can leave you alone, basically. So that was great.

[00:29:28] When did you decide? When had you decided to go into implants? Was that something you always planned to do or was it the influence of this boss in that?

[00:29:38] Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I got a taste for it, and then in the vet practise, I was in the good mate of mine, get a good buzz. He was doing implants there and he was about, I think, for four or five years. Yeah, four years ahead of me and uni. And so I could just see what he was doing and whatever. And yeah, it just got a bit of a taste for it. And then I decided when we’re travelling, it’s, you know, when we’re travelling, it kind of gave you a lot of time to think and kind of decide on a

[00:30:09] Pathway, I guess. Yeah.

[00:30:12] And then, yeah, we were there for. About four years in Bath is kind of funny, really how the Cornwall situation came about from being on the MSC. One of the guys, Tim Harris, who teaches on it, is Friends with my now boss, Mark and Mark Davies said to him There are any implant people on your course that would be interested. So he just put out an internal email to the MSC Group just saying, you know, anyone be interested as an implant job, come up in Cornwall. And I was on holiday with my wife and her family, and I saw an email come through and I was like, Oh. I might just enquire, you know, so I put my name down and Mark got back to me and said, Oh, you know, I own pure Dental in Truro Hospital. Oh bloody hell, I know pure Dental like,

[00:31:04] I think very high profile practise, right?

[00:31:07] Yeah. And I thought,

[00:31:09] Oh God,

[00:31:10] What if I put my name in for? And if I’m honest, I just thought

[00:31:15] That’s out of my depth. I’m not going to get that,

[00:31:17] But I was like, Well, you know, you don’t put your name in, you never find out. And I had a bit of an interest in I just I liked taking photos. And to be honest, it was about the round, about the time when you know the sort of Facebook dentistry is really getting going and you could just see these high profile guys posting these cases. I just had that thing in the back of my head of. It’s a good thing to do, you know, build a portfolio. I don’t think any of my I didn’t know anyone else doing that at the time. And so I just sort of thought, Well, I don’t know if I’m getting anything out of these photos, really, but these guys say it’s a good idea, so I’m going to stick it out. And then when it came to it, when on holiday, you know, Mark said, Oh, send me a CV, send me some photos and excerpts of your work. And I was like, Yeah, here you go, ping. Half an hour later, you had it. And he was. I looked great. You know, it’s pretty much yours, but let’s chat in the week when you get back from holiday and which time? I hadn’t said anything to my wife and she’s like,

[00:32:20] Well, you get off your lap, you doing your laptop

[00:32:22] On holiday.

[00:32:23] And I hadn’t told her because I was like, she will be over the Moon to move to Cornwall, but I can’t. I daren’t disappoint her and say, you know, whatever. I didn’t get it. I just turned that around because, you know, I’ve been horribly rude on my laptop. And she said, I just got a job in Truro, pure Dental. But it was for 13 months ahead. So that was a bit tricky. Going back to work and being I got a job in just over a year’s time. Moving to Cornwall and my notice periods like three months, actually actually given four months in the end. But I got within. I was doing a little bit of short term, although then I remember getting within the six month mark, but turning us in case seeing cases like, Oh, it’s a bit complex and I’m going to refer that, refer that to my boss. My nurse is looking at me like, what are we talking about? Like, I could do that. So yeah, that was a bit tricky. But yeah, it was worth it.

[00:33:24] Why was he looking for someone so early? He just a planner. The one thing

[00:33:28] I think it because we may be lazy. I think it’s because because the guy Jeremy Harris has taken over from had, you know, he was retiring, it was a long plan. You know, it wasn’t. Yeah, quick notice. So he wanted to give himself time to to look around. And I don’t know, perhaps no one has applied and

[00:33:50] Was a bit like that. It’s hard to hard to persuade people to come, come and move there.

[00:33:55] So I imagine yeah, I imagine so.

[00:33:57] Yeah, yeah. Well, when you told me Jeremy Harris, I took a gasp because he’s known for doing some huge cases for years that he’s been doing implant ology and full mouth dentistry, right?

[00:34:09] Yeah. Did you feel the same?

[00:34:11] You know, did you did you know him or have you heard of him before?

[00:34:15] I knew who he was, but I had no. I had no idea quite the extent of what he was doing, and

[00:34:23] I knew he had an honour to take over that list. Really?

[00:34:26] Yeah, a real honour. Yeah, I

[00:34:28] Mean, sometimes now even, you know, oh, unclip a chrome dentro, just like, have a look for a bit, you know, and

[00:34:35] Sit down there and

[00:34:37] Was this attachment and then, you know, patient breaks the crown and they’re like, Oh, you’re just going to do, you know, sort this out and you’re like, Oh my God, this is this is complicated. And so, yeah, really real honour, real

[00:34:50] Honour and a steep learning curve, I’m sure.

[00:34:53] Yeah, for sure. But because I had such a long time knowing I was going to start there, I remember I remember halfway through Max being like, I’ve hardly placed any Canada’s. I’ve been bottling out of it and letting all the nurses do it. So the last six months of Max, I’m going to pace at least five years a week for the rest of this. And so when I got that one year, you know, ready to go scenario, I kind of was, OK, I’ve got this job that I can either just like bury my head in the sand and try and survive it, or I’ve got 12 months to try and just nail the basics. And so pretty much from then on, I was like, Right, I’m rubber damning. Everything I’m going to make, take all the time in the world and have it go all this and just upskill as much as I can. I’ve probably made hardly any money that year, but. A long time on treatments and just try to get confident in the basics, you know, and so when I when I went to Pure, I was like, Great, I’m just going to, yeah, I’m rubber dam and everything. I’m happy with my crown preps and whatever. But the one thing Mark said to me was, You know, I like your portfolio, but it’s a lot of single single tooth density or small cases. And to work here, you’re going to need to understand full mouth, which is kind of daunting. But he said, Look, you’ve got to go and do Dawson go to the Dawson Occlusion Academy. He absolutely lives and breathes Dawson. And so if I’m honest, I we didn’t. We didn’t have a lot of occlusion

[00:36:34] Lectures at uni

[00:36:36] Or if we did, I don’t remember them particularly well,

[00:36:38] But I

[00:36:40] Had no idea what I was getting myself into go into to Dawson. And when I looked at like four modules of like three days each night, what is going on? And I sometimes find when I talk to my friends, whatever

[00:36:54] Is, you know, how

[00:36:55] I got interested in occlusion. Like what? What do you mean? Like, tap together and look at the blue dots here? And was

[00:37:03] Like, Yeah, but I think I think a lot

[00:37:06] Of people that don’t necessarily or haven’t done those sorts of courses don’t link occlusion with being able to do format rehabs and big treatment. I don’t know. I think you’re right. And actually, you know, this like study of occlusion is not about nerding out over the TMJ. I mean, yes, you end up becoming that person because, you know, just do anyway. But it’s about treating a whole mouth. And yeah, that was a huge game changer, really. That course for me, Alan,

[00:37:39] I look at your content. A lot of it is that sort of biomimetic sort of, you know, the rubber dam, these sort of protocols and that aspect I’m keen to know about, you know, the role of social media in the development of dentists because it’s very it’s very sort of fashionable to put it down. But I’ve definitely noticed that since social media dentistry has come along, the standards of young dentists, which just gone through the roof.

[00:38:13] Mm hmm. Ok.

[00:38:15] You know, it could be self-selecting and the ones I’m meeting or whatever it is. But but the standards are high and I want to know,

[00:38:22] You know,

[00:38:24] The other side of it, you know, but it’s all it’s very easy to say it’s rubbish. And you know, all the things that we know is wrong with Instagram dentistry and all that. But but what role did it play in your development as a dentist?

[00:38:37] And so, Alice, I started my Instagram account when I moved to Cornwall because

[00:38:42] That before

[00:38:43] Then I’d been taking my photos to get that portfolio together to get the private job. And I’ve got this job that was, you know, a huge leap up in what I’ve been doing. And I thought, Well, I’ve got to take photos for now, but know I could just work this job. And so as I do, I’m going to start with these Instagram accounts and it would just make me take photos. I’m going to post the case a week or whatever I decided to do. And that’s literally how I got into it, just to try and keep myself accountable, really to to taking photos and sticking at something that I’d kind of decided was a good idea and actually what I found more recently with Instagram. And I think this is where Instagram and Facebook differ, is that if you are a dentist that posts for dentists and you’re trying to post quality content or educational content or

[00:39:39] Whatever, like, it’s pretty

[00:39:42] Hard to post a lot of content, even like one a week is is time. And you know, there’ll be cases where you take take photos and you run out of time to take any more photos or it just doesn’t go well or whatever, you know. So I think for me, sometimes I’ll be in work. I’m like, you know, I’m photographing in this case, it drives you to push your your quality, for sure. I think I feel on Facebook because you’re in a big group, you only have to post, I don’t know, one case a month or whatever to stay relevant. You just got to keep your name in the hat, whereas in Instagram on Instagram. Yeah, it’s a really positive platform. There’s a lot of back slapping, and that’s cool, but you’re the only person on your page, and so you’re the only one that can keep your content going and drive it. And I guess I guess more recently, I’ve kind of flipped more towards like posting more stories and trying to keep just complete quality for my page. And also, I really like that interactive story part where you can I talk people through a case and I find a lot of people really resonate with that. I get so many nice messages like, Oh, thanks for explaining how to do that. And you know, I I definitely learn huge amounts of social media, Facebook and Instagram. You just got to be selective and careful and like, learn kind of within your limits, you know?

[00:41:10] Yeah, yeah, so so that’s kind of what I was asking is, you know, what you’ve learnt, where you’ve learnt it, which accounts you’ve learnt it from, you know, for instance, for me, someone like George Cheatin, you know, I’ve learnt so much from that guy just by looking at his Instagram. This is amazing. Yeah, yeah. And you know, I’m not even practising.

[00:41:33] But for me, it’s actually

[00:41:36] I know it’s good content when it makes me want to try the damn thing. I saw one of yours. You were using the tool. Was it you the thing? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the Liquid Dam is reporting that this is so obvious, right of this thing. But but maybe I’ll call and try that now. And it’s a lot better than the kittens, right? But but it does get a bad name as well. And and I think a lot of the bad part of it is when it’s aimed at patients and people aren’t taking care of, you know, anything other than trying to track the patient to them. Hmm. Did you have the did you have ever wanted to do a patient facing page because you’re definitely isn’t right?

[00:42:27] Yeah, it’s not. It’s not. I’ve had I think I’ve had one patient

[00:42:36] And they

[00:42:37] They came in, you know, it’s hilarious. Actually, I treated them last week and I came in and I said, Oh hell, I always introduce people to the rubber down its first filling appointment, and I said, Oh, you see one of these before? And she’s like, Yeah, on your page,

[00:42:53] I was like, All

[00:42:54] Right, cool. So that’s fine. We’re going to do this. So you’re going to tie some floss around it. No, but I feel like I should know. So, yeah, I mean, you were asking about influential pages, and I would say for sure, you know, Lincoln Harris on the right page, just the amount of quality content that God puts out that I’ve learnt huge amounts from from him. But for me now, it’s more about the little tiny things that you pick up, perhaps on a case you you’ve already done or you know how to do. But they’re doing it. One little step is different. And that’s that’s where you can just tweak and refine and you make these tiny, tiny little steps. And then you look back a year later, you’re like, Whoa, I’ve come a long way. But combined with that, like the the networking is is mad, and that’s something I’ve never, I don’t know I’ve never been good at. I never really had any intent to be involved in, you know, not not chatting to people like schmoozing people, I suppose, you know, it just doesn’t come naturally to me. But on Instagram, you start chatting to people and all of a sudden you know your chatting to people around the place. And that’s how I got to know guys like Chris O’Connor, who owns its Dental and yeah, chat to Georgia dentists every now and again. I’ve spoke to him on the phone and stuff, and especially down in Cornwall. You know, I don’t get to meet, meet and greet and, you know, go to those nice parties that I see online.

[00:44:40] I’ve spoken. I’ve worked a lot with Jason Smith and I’ve spoken to him about the Cornwall as a as a place to work and live. And there are the obvious advantages, right? But but there is that thing of if you want to fly to

[00:44:54] Portugal,

[00:44:56] You’ve got that whole journey before getting to the airport and then back.

[00:45:03] That’s funny. You said Portugal. Portugal is pretty much the only place you can fly from the UK and it’s like 40. Is that right? Is that

[00:45:10] Right? Yeah, I know you’re going to Portugal a lot. Yeah, but oh,

[00:45:19] Do you know what are so, so naive to that? As naive to that because

[00:45:23] I,

[00:45:24] You know, I grew up in Hallie, which is a £5 taxi ride from Gatwick, and I had no idea. But even living in Bath, you know, getting to Bristol Airport, I like this. This is a pain. I can’t. I can’t believe people put up with this. You know, they’ve got a

[00:45:39] Commute to the airport as a ticket.

[00:45:42] But now I’m in Cornwall two hours to anywhere, you know, get back to the the rest of the world, you get to Exeter. It’s like God, I’m only just starting. So yeah, there is that. There is that. But at the same time, you kind of having this sort of slightly more isolated situation. There’s perks to it, even in in work as well. You know, you’ve got this little community, a dentist that you can easily interact with, but at the same time, you’re not you’re not all fighting each other. There’s a lot of people down here, a lot of teeth, not that many dentists. So there’s more than enough work for everyone. And and that makes for

[00:46:19] Sort of

[00:46:20] Quite nice work environment as well.

[00:46:22] And your patient group, I know Truro has, you know, both both sides, hasn’t it? It’s actually a lot of, you know, didn’t need down there as well. But your patient group? Is it is it that sort of typical person you’d imagine who’s like retired to Cornwall and this time wants to get his teeth right? Is that is that it? Am I talking rubbish?

[00:46:48] Yes and no. Yes and no. So when I when I moved into this, you know, it’s high end private practise, I was like, OK, I’m going to have demanding veneer patients all day, every day, and I’m just going to see how it goes. And actually, it’s just not the case, I would say. I say my patients are probably three different categories. One would be what you would expect in private practise. You know, they want the best, and that’s fine. Some of them are great. Most of them are great. Some of them a bit more fussy. Then you’ve got phobic patients who basically just need time. So many of them. So I’ve done sedation training in the last few years, but so many of my sedation patients, we sedate them initially and I try and win them off it. That’s kind of my goal, and that is life changing treatment. I have a guy who he wouldn’t let us take photos even in the waiting room, he cried, Come on up the stairs the first time he ever came in and he wouldn’t sit in the chair. It was traumatic just for him to come in the practise. We did a fair amount treatment under sedation and then a couple of months ago we placed two lower implants and with no sedation and us and fulfilling. Isn’t it so good? So, so good. So, yeah, phobic patients. And then lastly, it’s like people who haven’t been in 20 years and they just they just come in and go. My teeth are wrecked. I’m going to pay for it. Just do the do what you can or do you need to do, you know, because they they they get there’s limitations with the system. They know they’ve got a lot of work to do and they just want to get it done. And some of those are fantastically rewarding as well. So, yeah, it’s not all difficult.

[00:48:28] So, you know,

[00:48:30] The kind of work that you do now, there’s quite a lot of full mouth stuff there, right? And you’re actually carrying that out now. Yeah, the conversation for the patient that comes in with, let’s say, Problem X, I mean, he might do probably he might come in saying, my front teeth are looking short. Yeah, or or whatever it is, my back is broken. Yeah. And then and then you have a look. And when you’re looking at things from that comprehensive sort of mindset, you might then turn around and say, you need. Thirty thousand pounds worth of treatment. Have you have you sort of figured out some ways of breaking that news in a sort of a piecemeal way to, you know, how how do you communicate with the patient to give them that news? Because, you know, I’m thinking, I’m thinking of my brother. My brother has a mutagenesis imperfecta and he has a full mouth of crowns. He should know better, right? He should know that when he goes to a dentist, the dentist might say, you need a big dream. But I remember my brother came back and say, the guy said it would be like 10 grand. And I said, Well, he might be. I haven’t seen him myself. How do you how did you break the news? What do you do? Tell me about it.

[00:49:44] So a lot of the time I find those patients come in and they’re like, I know it’s bad. They’re really they’re really bad ones. Say, for example, I find I find actually just slightly that some of the tooth wear cases where they don’t really know they’re quite tricky. They are. Yeah. Okay, so those ones. So my standard new patient assessment, everybody gets a set of radiographs that they need, usually set by a full set of photographs. We do the assessment and then we get out the chair, go and sit by a monitor in the corner and we talk through their photos and even the people with the nicest teeth. You put their screen on a T on a 40 inch monitor and they go, Oh my God. And so you’re instantly getting them to see the problem because you think that sounds mad. They know what’s going on with their teeth, but they don’t. And when you can actually show them. So, so let them see what’s going on is my first thing to do. The next thing is, and this is new, I don’t haven’t always done it this way, but now it’s how I always do. It is our stage people are. We’re going to take this in two stages. We’re going to do a stabilisation phase in a definitive phase and stabilisation is get your gums healthy, fill things we can fill, take out anything we can’t and get your maintenance on board. And some patients, that is a six month journey. You know, it depends on how often they want to come in, but other patients are like, Yeah, let’s do it, let’s nail this and other patients that come in every week for two months and just, you know, tidied everything up. They’ve got caries everywhere and whenever and and and then I say to them, and that’s going to end with a planning phase

[00:51:32] And

[00:51:33] I say, Well, you know, if you’re going to build a house, you wouldn’t just start putting bricks down. You’ve got to get the architect in first. And that’s where we’re going to start. We’ve got to do a plan for your mouth and talk to them about their bias a little bit. And usually they start to, you know, they see what you’re doing, you know, for example, they come in for this first film. I never started anything major. It’s like a little clues or on a six or something to start with. They come in.

[00:51:59] You treat them

[00:52:01] As you would anybody but to your best ability. You know, given topical, we’ve got a TV on the ceiling. I’m using rubber. Damn, it doesn’t hurt. They don’t drown with the water. The filling looks nice. Sometimes they have a little snooze until the rubber dam. If you really winning and they sit up there like that was all right, actually. And then, you know, sometimes they’ll go, Oh, it’s so look like on the photo and you showed them and they’re on board. They’re sold. They they’re like, OK, I feel like

[00:52:32] This guy

[00:52:32] Gets it or whatever. And then you get to the end of the stabilisation and you say, Do you want to do the planning? You know, this is a treatment plan for that going. Record your, your teeth, your bite and your jaw position. And I’m going to go away for six weeks with the technician and we’re going to plan your case in the background and then I’ll tell you what’s involved and they’ll get a wish list from them. And quite often, I’ll ask them if they have a budget because by then they’re starting to get the problem. You know, you touch on it a couple of times and you can. By doing a stabilisation phase, I find that you can really draw out people what they think about their teeth or what they hate or what. And you can go back to that of this is what I want to do to your teeth to fix them. And this is how it’s going to achieve your goal. You know, that’s that’s kind of my approach, really, but it’s always difficult. You know, I’ve had people I’ve had, I’ve had several people. We get into stabilisation. We’ve even done the planning phase, which is not for free. You know, we sit down, we show them a full mouth wax up and they go, Yeah, yeah, I’ll think about it and never come back. That’s OK. I’m OK with that like good cause they’re stable. And that makes me feel good because I know they’re healthy. Like, yes, they haven’t got the perfect bite, but they’re a heck of a lot better than when they came in. And I think I would feel a little bit maybe uneasy if I went, OK, here’s the here’s everything it’s going to cost. Yeah, and 30 grand and then never come back and I’ll go back. I. Scott Carey’s everywhere, like we could have at least sort that out.

[00:54:06] Yeah, so I guess you’re saying you use the stabilisation phase number one to get rapport. And number two, to understand their goals. And I guess they’re all hygiene. And you know, you get to know her mouth in a way isn’t, you know, the person. I mean, I’ve had right here

[00:54:24] On this podcast and you

[00:54:26] Know, he told me he sometimes does three examinations before starting treatment. And much of it is for him to work the patient out and to know whether that’s, you know, someone he’s going to work on with him. Sometimes it’s two years of of work before that final fit visit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about the actual work? I mean, you’re doing so many different things. I mean, the only part of your work that I can kind of relate to is the composite part. I mean, I know you did maybe a little bit of bleaching too, but the the buzz, the buzz of, I guess, with the full mouth cases, the buzz of everything fitting together, right? Marcano sort of buzz. Yeah, that was it.

[00:55:11] Yeah, there is that there is that. I think I’ve had several times where I’ve thought, you know, you often hear people talking about saying, you know, niche down and, you know, find your area and nail that. And I’m like, Yeah, I’m going to do that, but I haven’t found my area. You know, I I keep enjoying bits,

[00:55:29] And I wasn’t that

[00:55:30] Sure about dentures, and I had a few that didn’t go very well. So I went and did a course with Finley Sutton and I was like, Oh man, this is so good. And so now that didn’t really help me, though, because it just meant I’m doing more stuff now. We’ve got a great practise. Graham, it does end, though, and so I might just not even going to bother with that. Why? Why try when he’s already nailing it? So but apart from that, I just enjoy it. Oh, really? And it’s yeah, it’s how it fits together. But it’s getting I get huge satisfaction when I’m doing a crown Prav. I’m like, Man, that’s that’s crisp, you know? Or, yeah, a few composites and even all the little bits, you know, not just pretty anatomy, but a good contact point and all the bits that go with it. Just I find it really like just personally satisfying. And I think that’s why I struggle to. Some people would say, Oh, you know, you can try and do everything. I think I just a bit of a dabble, really and and

[00:56:31] Just

[00:56:32] I can’t inside.

[00:56:34] I can’t decide. I think, look, the most important thing is that you’re happy that it’s the most

[00:56:38] Important thing now.

[00:56:40] So as long as you’re happy, that’s it. But but I think I don’t know. To me, it looks like you’re going down the route of being a teacher of some sort. I mean, you’ve done some courses anyway. And it’s an important question, right?

[00:56:56] Should you teach

[00:56:57] More than one subject? And I think you can do. I think you can. You could. You can teach isolation, you can teach composite. You can teach,

[00:57:05] I don’t know.

[00:57:05] Can you teach in parts that probably some aspects of it, right? And you know, I have this conversation with Dipesh a lot. You know, Dipesh Palmer, yeah, he’s very talented in lots of different areas. And then the question of, you know, is what’s what’s the someone like Newton file like at implants? I don’t know if you’re going to be a teacher, you’re going to be a year course teacher. It sounds like because there’s so many different parts of dentistry that you’re interested in, isn’t it?

[00:57:40] Yeah, I don’t, you know, I don’t know the teaching thing for me.

[00:57:44] Just like it just happened.

[00:57:46] I didn’t. I hadn’t. I have no desire to to to teach and, you know, show off my skills or whatever. I just I really enjoyed teaching, actually. And yeah, when we ran the course this year, the first one we did was in, well, we actually set it up to do the first one in Newcastle and then the dates so happened that it failed, that the Baath course was going to be a month before we were like, Oh crap, we better get a move on, like our start date just moved a month forward. And so we’re doing this, this composite course with myself,

[00:58:25] Chris

[00:58:25] O’connor, who owns Incidente. When a guy Olly Bailey, who’s a friend of his

[00:58:30] Works up

[00:58:31] In Newcastle with him,

[00:58:32] A fantastic clinician

[00:58:35] And I’ve never met either of them. I chatted to Chris, seen him on Zoom, Zoom and Zoom a few times and we were kind of on the same page or whatever. I sent him my lecture and he was like, Oh, put it all together, and I had never given a lecture. I think, I mean, yeah, I don’t think I’d ever given a lecture in front of like dentists. I mean, I’ve done, I’ve done. I’ve done a 30 minute presentation at uni. Imperio the I knew nothing about, and I did I did a rubber dam webinar in lockdown, which I just I really enjoyed it. I just liked that kind of just telling people like This is what I do, and this is difficult. This is how you can make it work. We went to this course and that’s like, I don’t actually know how you can practise a one hour lecture. You can’t practise two days. So I spent like, I know what I’m going to say, but I don’t know how long it will last. You know, is this enough for two days? Yeah. And I basically planned what was going to say on the first slide and everything else. I knew all the other slides, I knew all the pictures there. My case is a new kind of the topics I wanted to cover, but just pretty much freestyle the rest of it because it was just talking about what I did every day. It wasn’t like, OK, I’ve got to have all these papers to back up this, I’m saying and whatever and defend yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And yeah, I really enjoyed it, and it seemed to go fairly well. So that was my like kind of first experience with teaching, really. And yeah, happy to continue it. It was really good fun. But yeah, I’ve got no major plans to set up the HILLENBURG in one year course in, you know, whatever you want to pick out my Instagram page.

[01:00:29] But do you see this? You do see what I mean by confidence, right? I mean, the next man would have said, Well, I’ve never talked before. I’m not up for this. I’m not going to do this. Or, you know, or or it wouldn’t have gone so well, but it just jumped into it and did it.

[01:00:43] Yeah. But the thing was, I was a bit like, if I don’t say yes to this, you know, when am I going to get an opportunity to teach a course like this? It’s just not. It’s just not going to happen, so I thought I

[01:00:53] Heard they picked you up from your account, your Instagram account. Is that how it happened?

[01:00:58] I think so. Yeah, kind of be kind of. Yeah, so I mean, I got chatting to Chris on on Instagram. I asked him a question. I think that like drew us into this funnel of nerd occlusion chat that he’s like, I like, he’s like,

[01:01:15] This

[01:01:17] Is guys as sad as I am, it’s Saturday night and he’s still messaging me. And then actually me, Chris Jaz Gulati. A couple other guys, my buddy Vijay and Richard McIndoe just started a

[01:01:32] Little online study club

[01:01:34] Just out of the blue, and we each that was it. Actually, we each gave a lecture on that and I said I’d go first and I gave a lecture on suturing, which I just wrote from this sort of advanced soft tissue course I’d done, and they had this really amazing bit on suturing. And so I told everyone, Right, you’ve got to bring you’ve got to you’ve got to bring a suture kit, some some sutures and a banana and a scalpel. And we did this suture lecture. And Chris, he’s like, I don’t do any suturing, but I’m so into this now. And that was basically that’s what I think where he went, Hey, let’s do. That’s what he basically said. Let’s do something together. It just came from there.

[01:02:17] All right. I’ve never done this before, but I’m going to try it this time. Yeah. I want your Altenberg in three top tips. I’m going to I’m going to fire the subjects. Okay? And I just want you to just think too much about actually to fire out your three top tips on rubber down

[01:02:32] Through a rubber down start. Easy. Don’t throw yourself in at the deep end. It’s just stressful. Give yourself time. Plan a little bit of extra time and

[01:02:46] Something practical and practical.

[01:02:48] Give yourself space when you’re isolating. So if you’re going to treat a lower six isolate camp, the seven and isolate, at least to the four 14th isolation is like my standard quadrant.

[01:03:00] I mean, suturing three top tips

[01:03:02] On suturing,

[01:03:06] You

[01:03:08] Get careful.

[01:03:15] Take your time to get in position. Don’t be bending over backwards with your arm twisted just to try and get the suture in place, move around, get comfortable and move the suture within the holder to get it in the right place so you can sit comfortably with your first throw. Get the not to lie flat and then what?

[01:03:38] What, what? What’s going on? Say that?

[01:03:43] Explain that. Okay, so when you’re tying your suture, they say you’re using a four 000 vehicle resizable suture. You’re going to throw the needle by. So wrapping around the suture holder and then you going to pull tight. That’s your first throw. You’re going to pull in the direction

[01:04:03] That the needle

[01:04:05] Went through the tissue. And if you’re not sure what if what you’re supposed to look like, the knot should lie flat, okay? And if you have it flat against the government and if you’ve ever done this, it will look like it’s wrapped over each other. Not like a little ball. Yeah, that’s how you get your suture tight. And then the second throw ties tighten that locks the first throw and you can’t rectify it with the second throw. You can’t do a crap job on the first one and then save it on the second one, pulling it really hard. That’s that’s basically the

[01:04:37] Crux of it. And much of much of successful implant ology

[01:04:42] From the aesthetic sort of

[01:04:43] Perspective. Suturing is a massive part of that, right?

[01:04:46] Oh yeah, for sure. That’s why I love it. I just I find it really quite sort of relaxing, you know, at the end of the procedure. I used to I used to be like, Oh man, get this wound closed down stress. This was a hard case. Now, like, OK, let’s chew. Let’s close this up. Let’s put some nice sutures in and relax a bit.

[01:05:09] Three top tips on composites. How many top three they it’s your fault for being good at everything. So, so

[01:05:21] Good. So one comes by Oh man, so many of them. Yeah, yeah. I would say take if you do a class to take your time to get your matrix, whatever you’re using, set up in place and the rest will be quite straightforward. Don’t just rush that bit and then be like, OK, now I’ve got to sort this mess up. Use a good bonding system, so I’m an optic bond AFL fan. You know, there’s decent self etched pieces out there, clear feeling that sort of thing. But do you use a decent system and know how to use it? So we do a little seminar in the course. It’s like an hour section, which Chris does, and it’s

[01:06:12] I’ve seen him to

[01:06:14] Four times down, I think, and it’s just brilliant. He goes through how, you know, basically what you’ve got in the drawer and how to use them differently.

[01:06:23] Yeah.

[01:06:23] And and isolate it.

[01:06:27] Yeah. Read the instructions, right? So many people don’t read the instructions. Yeah, sure. It’s interesting for sure. I wouldn’t worry

[01:06:35] About running out and running.

[01:06:39] I want to. I want to move on to darker days. We ask everyone on this podcast this question. It’s around either something you did that you later on regretted doing clinically or, you know, your most difficult patient, the most difficult management patient, something we can all learn from that. Hmm.

[01:07:03] I would say and this is so earlier I said about my sort of stabilisation and definitive phase, and I said, I haven’t always done that. And I got a little bit burnt once with a tooth wear case. There’s a composite rehab. And I did the full wax up. Lovely lady and plan the case. And I said, Look, you’ve got these two crowns on your Prav molars on the left. It would be ideal to replace them at the same time to get your bite right and to make everything look the same. She was like,

[01:07:44] Ok, well, I get that.

[01:07:45] That’s ideal, but it’s a bit out of my budget. So that’s fine. I can make it work. That’s no problem. But we just needed to, like, discuss that first. There’s a few other little bits. So we did the composite rehab and there was a situation. I can’t think what it was, but basically she saw a colleague of mine at a review and she she said a few strange things throughout. But she she said to my

[01:08:12] Friend Alan tried to

[01:08:13] Scratch these crowns on purpose when he was going around the composite because he wanted me to replace them because he wanted me to spend more money.

[01:08:21] And, well,

[01:08:24] The guy I was working with, he’s a legend. He doesn’t, he lacks a filter. And he said, OK, so

[01:08:37] So crowns

[01:08:39] Are crowns are glazed in a furnace when they’re made. And that’s the only way to get a glaze on them. So I’m going to have a look at your mouth in a minute and. If the guy is damage, then then Alan, scratch those crowns, but that glaze is in intact, then then you’re lying there like, just check it. Yeah, have a look. So we had a look just he struggled with. I don’t know what to say, but that glaze is fine.

[01:09:19] And he just sat in silence and stared

[01:09:23] As she said she went, she she didn’t lose it, but she was

[01:09:27] Like, No, he did it. He scratched them.

[01:09:29] He tried to do so. She complained. She went to the boss. So now she’s requested to see, see the boss. And you know, I’m thinking, Oh, did I? The polish that margin perfectly on the concept, you know, we see each other’s work, but you know, it’s not common that he’s going to like, inspect it like that and pick it apart. And he had a look and he just said, really sorry. Like? I worked, it works great. There’s nothing wrong here. He said, I’ll

[01:10:00] Pay for you to

[01:10:01] Go and have a consultation anywhere in the county. We’ll pay for that. Get a second opinion. And it went on and on and

[01:10:10] She kind of

[01:10:11] Came to see me and I was like, Oh, got some alarm bells going here? This is just getting out of hand. And in the end, I just sat down, had a chat to my boss and he’s like, Look, I think we should just refund her and cut our losses or whatever. And you know, it was a five to five composite build up case upper and lower. It wasn’t a quick fix, cheap treatment. And I said, Yeah, let’s do it. Which gave all the money back and said, Don’t come back. And that was like afterwards I was reflecting on it with my nurse. I just said, You know, how do we how do we avoid that? You know, how do I? I didn’t see that coming. And it’s because I didn’t know I didn’t know her, and I probably would have picked that out of her in a stabilisation. The tricky thing is, I know everyone needs stabilisation. You know, if they’ve got a clean mouth and a bit of teeth where there’s not like you’re going to do a load of, you know, composite. So in first, maybe do a bit of whitening and slow things down a bit. But yeah, now I I definitely have a more like if I get a gut feeling or whatever. Yeah, I try and slow it down a little bit, get to know the patient for sure. And some of the some of the former rehabs now that I’ve finished are just on the loveliest patients and I’ve got one in next week that we’re nearly finishing. I’m I’m looking forward to seeing her. She’s such a good patient and we’re super busy at the moment. Hopefully remains beer and I just feel like, you know what? Life’s too short to ruin your day with those patients. I’d much rather

[01:11:46] Say I’m sorry, and sometimes I

[01:11:47] Just sometimes I to say this is too difficult for me or

[01:11:52] Whatever. It’s a difficult it’s a difficult one, that one, because when you explained it to me, I thought, Well, there must be a juicier story than this, but she’s questioning your integrity there, not your not your actual work. And so I could understand how that must have felt very strange. Hmm. And you’re right. You know, not not knowing someone is is the best. I mean, for all we know, she’s a paranoid person and questions everyone’s integrity, right? But but you know, when when you look back on it, that’s that’s where you figured things could have been improved insomuch as you didn’t know her long enough before going into something?

[01:12:31] Mm hmm. I think that’s one of those one of the things. It’s probably one of the sort of my weaknesses, I suppose, like I was really disappointed in that, you know, I was really sort of like, Oh, I would never do that. So it was disappointing that someone would think that. But you know, you live and learn and hopefully dodged a few of those since then.

[01:12:53] What about with implants? You must have had some situations with implants.

[01:12:56] No, actually. Yeah, yeah, I had one. I had one where I was doing a sinus lift, and it’s like it was annoying. It was six and a seven, and the seven needed just an internal sinus lift like some style. But, you know, just crystal and. I’ve done the six, I was really happy with the position of it, and then the seven I went to do, I perforated the sinus. So annoying. And then I looked at it and I sort of weigh it all up and I decided to close rather than do a lateral window and try and fix it. I think I’d already placed one implant in the procedure was getting on, and it’s quite a big toe. I’m going to close. And then I left it to heal and then went back to it and it just had real. It is just impossible to then get those two implants parallel in the right place. And I know it sounds really minor, but it’s just it was. It was a. The patient didn’t really notice and it was compromised. But that’s something I find really difficult with implants is that, you know, composites, crown preps. You can like, tweak and tweak and refine. And and if if it’s not perfect, well, you could do it again. Implants, I really find the I think, you know, that sort of perfectionist side.

[01:14:26] I find that

[01:14:26] Difficult to when you get not even complications, just like, you know, someone doesn’t heal as you’d expected or you do a roll flap, you don’t get as much tissue out of it. Why didn’t that work as textbook? And that I find really frustrating. But maybe that’s just an experience, and I’ve only been doing implants right now for four or five years or so. Yeah, that’s that’s one of the difficulties in implants for me.

[01:14:56] Yeah. Well, it’s much less predictable is there. And as soon as you bring soft tissues, then it’s much less predictable. And you’re right, the finality of that placement, you know, once it’s in, it’s just full.

[01:15:08] Yeah, yeah.

[01:15:09] I mean, I had another one, I had another one. There was another central.

[01:15:13] She’s a smoker, but she quit.

[01:15:16] And I don’t know, just the tissues just did not hear well. It’s slightly slightly opened up a little bit on healing and she got she got more recession that I’d anticipated. And after I was like, Oh, maybe I should have done different flap design and blah. And she came from London and she’d seen some. She’d seen Richard Lee in London, top guy who actually went to go see actually a few months back before he moved to New Zealand. Just the loveliest bloke. Top, top dentist. And she used to be seen by him and she said, Oh, look, maybe Richard. So you basically had the implants fine with grafting and stuff. But she had some recession said. So maybe, maybe Richard can do something about it. I was like, hopefully.

[01:16:09] So I messaged

[01:16:10] Him was like, Hey, man, do you recommend it? He’s like, Yeah, go and see Sanjay down the road. So I messaged Sanjay, and it’s difficult. And I I don’t know. Yes. And he said, Yeah, yeah, and I don’t know. I don’t know these guys. Okay, yeah. But I didn’t know him, and all I had was on Richard’s word that this guy’s a good guy. And he end up calling me and I sent I sent the case over and all this. I sent the radiographs over and he called me, Oh man, is he going to say, like, you’ve really balls this laugh or whatever? And he’s like, Mate, I think you got unlucky. He’s like, It looks good. Your implant positions nice and blah blah blah. I think you’ve gotten lucky with the healing. I’m like, So glad you said that. But it doesn’t really help that he’s like, Yeah, I can sort this out. Like, don’t worry, she didn’t go and see him in the exit. It cost him whatever she want to go down there. And actually, I’ve been trying to get back in to finish it and put this

[01:17:06] Permanent crown on.

[01:17:06] But she’s she’s like, she’s so she looks like, Yeah, it’s cool. The temporary looks great. Yeah, but it’s not meant to be on as long as it is. Just come back and finish it. So I don’t know. She’s not too upset about it, which is kind of unfortunate.

[01:17:18] I’ve we’re at to close it out soon, but I want to find out your plans

[01:17:24] For the future.

[01:17:25] Is there going to be a dental practise down the line? Are you happy as an associate? Are you thinking that way?

[01:17:33] I think I’m happy as an associate. You know, I just I don’t think you can do it all. And for me, like the move to Cornwall, so I don’t work Mondays and that work life balance is like everything, really. You know that not working the Monday? Yeah, sometimes I’ll work like do some lecture staff and whatever, and I do stuff in the evenings and

[01:17:59] Yeah, whatever.

[01:18:00] But like if I had a practise, something else would have to give.

[01:18:04] And and I don’t know,

[01:18:08] I love people, but doing it for like dealing with people, you know, I’m not very good in conflict. I think I’d be too soft. I think I’d just be like trying to be the one’s mate.

[01:18:22] Yeah, that that is me too. I’ve got a partner who handles. Yeah, you don’t have. You don’t have to do it all by yourself. You could have a partner. Yeah. Practise manager or whatever. You know,

[01:18:34] Maybe one day, I don’t know.

[01:18:36] So, you know, you’re one of the sort of the people I look at and how many years post-graduation are you now?

[01:18:42] Nine, twenty twelve. Ok, just come up to ten years.

[01:18:47] Yes, if the way you’ve.

[01:18:49] It’s so funny, isn’t it, because if as a as a Dental student, if I told you, yeah, 10 years qualifying, there’d be a guy sitting here saying, you know, for your early stage in your career, you’ve done really well. You think you think, what the hell is he talking about? But then once you get into it, you realise stuff takes years to learn, right? Yeah. But yeah, so for you, for where you’re at 10 years out, it really it’s impressive to see what you’ve achieved. Thank you.

[01:19:15] I appreciate that.

[01:19:17] No, it is.

[01:19:19] Listen, let’s

[01:19:20] Finish it off with Prav know not with us, but perhaps final questions. It’s a bit it’s a bit dark on your deathbed. Yeah, your nearest and dearest around you. One of three pieces of advice you’d give them.

[01:19:39] Um. I think I’d say don’t chase the money. Like. I know a lot of it and a lot of times people say about, you know, you’ve got to enjoy your work, but also like not I enjoy it, but also just do it to your best. And that’s that’s I don’t know. I’ve tried to do that. I think just try and just do the best and the money will sort itself out eventually, hopefully. So, yeah, don’t don’t don’t chase the money and make

[01:20:13] It a quick buck.

[01:20:16] I think just also be to be honest with people like, you know, I think life gets difficult if you’re trying

[01:20:24] To

[01:20:26] Cover things up or, you know, just just be honest with people throughout, and things should be a bit easier. And and I think maybe like, yeah, something that’s fairly new ish to me, but just try and try and get a work life balance like it’s not all about about the work. And I guess looking back about like when I came out of uni and max backs, I’m like, Yeah, let’s hit the ground running. And my wife is like, Yeah, let’s go travelling, chill a bit. Yeah, great. That worked for me. And now we’ve moved to Cornwall and

[01:20:57] I’ve got to got that extra day

[01:20:58] To spend time with family

[01:21:01] Just to get that

[01:21:01] Balance. And and you know, it’s all about being happy, isn’t it? Really, it’s not about

[01:21:07] How do you find it as a dad, as a new dad? It’s tough, isn’t it?

[01:21:12] I love it. Do you know last week was 16 months old, my little boy, Jamie? And last week was the first time I opened the door and he just said, Oh, daddy’s home. And he came running to the door like with his arms out, like, Oh,

[01:21:28] This is so good, you can’t be that. Yeah, yeah. The final final question. It’s kind of like a fantasy dinner party, though. Okay. The dinner party, three guests that are alive. And.

[01:21:52] I think the thing I have, James, that he Castor, I really love that guy is so funny. James Acaster, he’s a he’s a comedian and OK, oh, you should check him out. He’s just the American knows he’s a Brit. He’s a bit like 8:00 a.m. Yeah. He’s like a friend is like a bit like Josh Widdicombe. He’s just like an awkward Brit.

[01:22:14] Secular sickens

[01:22:16] Me. Who else? Maybe Clarkson, I reckon he’s an eagle, he’s got some stories that you know, are not allowed to be aired on TV. Yeah, yeah. And oh, good, three, maybe I should have something a bit more serious. I don’t know. Maybe like. Maybe Jordan Peterson, he’s pretty. Oh, wow. He’s got some good, some good stuff to say every now and again.

[01:22:59] Yeah. Like you said, Michel. Brilliant minds. It’s been wonderful having you. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing it. I’ve really enjoyed that. And you know, I’m sure

[01:23:10] We’ll see each

[01:23:11] Other if we can get you out of Cornwall sometime. I’ll be there. I’ll be there. Sure. Sure. All right. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you.

[01:23:21] Thanks for having me. Thank you.

[01:23:24] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

[01:23:35] Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:23:40] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

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