Audio

One surgery. Then I opened the patient and I had anatomy in my mind and it was, Oh, so this is that bone. This is the way the root is. Here is where we have the muscles attachments. So when you start to apply the basics on your practice and you are thinking during the surgery, this is really important because in the beginning you are only afraid acting on the defence. But when you study and you apply the basics on your patients, practice on your practice with the patient, then you feel confident and you know what you are doing. So immunology requires a lot of basic studies and then be prepared, be prepared to do courses because you need to finish your dental school and to make it in patients, you need to do clinical practice. It’s not only about doing a one way course, make any plans in the plastic job and you believe you’re ready. No, no, it doesn’t work like that. You need to do courses and you need to do courses in patients. So we need you to practical education.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Sergio, welcome to the latest podcast. We’re here today at the Near Community event, which you’ve been presenting at some of the latest innovations with near event and the latest research. But let’s push that to one side for now and tell me about your backstory. So introduce yourself. And actually just to give the listeners some perspective. What volume of implants have you placed over your career?

Oh, okay. Well, I’m Brazilian. Like I said, I’m not really from Rio de Janeiro, and it’s where I graduated in dentistry, where I have my family or my parents. But then about 15 years ago, I moved to Korea, to the south of Brazil, where we have people in the And the reason why I decided to move was because of work. I noticed that the place where I work nowadays, it’s a very nice environment for innovation and developing products. When I finished dentistry, I remember that I did a promise and my promise was to look after the patients. And then when I was started practising, I don’t know, I felt like if I could become a professor or if I could turn to a trainer, or if I could lecture instead of me only helping patients. The promise that I’ve done when I graduated on looking after the patient, I could multiply it in other hands. So I was really motivated and inspired by becoming a professor or trainer and a lecturer and going to the academic world. So that’s why I decided to do the mastering in my Ph.D. And then when I started to train people and they could multiply.

The reason why I was doing dentistry, which was basically to look after the patients. I thought that if I started to develop new solutions, I could even help other professors and other trainers to help more people and then to help more people. And that’s when Amir then came to my life. And, you know, in the beginning I was working for education in Odense, so I was responsible for international education. So all academic work, you know, like doing manuals, literature review, preparing presentations and stuff like that. And but I was really close to the development team, and my dream was to work on the product development. And it took me some years to be confident enough and to work in a group in an environment where we have much more engineering than dentists. But I would say that now I love what I do. I love to create solutions, to create innovation, to create new products, because I believe that like that and helping more and more people. And the reason why I do my work is just because of the patients basically is this.

And so if you were to split up your time and just give us an insight into your world, how much of your time do you spend actually putting implants in patients mouths versus working on product development versus, you know, red tape and paperwork and all the rest of it? Just describe your your job, right?

Well, I graduated and reunited eight and at that time was extremely expensive to do in ontology. Basically, when I graduated, I was a dentist in the in the Brazilian army. And I had to make a decision or I would buy a car or I could buy a surgical motor and and a surgical cassette and do a course on ontology. And then I decided to use public transport and I invested my money. At that time it was really expensive on immunology. So in 1999 I did my first implant and then I started working as immunologists because in Brazil we have this as a field of dentistry, as perio or endo. So implant is something local. Yeah, is this is a special thing in my country. So I turned to an implant allergies just and then I decided to do the master and that was always clinically driven so I never liked to do only in vitro research. I always like to do some research where I could see results, you know, and tangible results. And so from 99 to 2006, I was sharing my private practice with this courses on immunology. And then in 2007 I was doing my PhD in and I came to the UK and I stayed one year at Eastman where. Fortunately, I couldn’t practice because of no license and stuff like that. But then in the UK, in Nisman, I met Dr. Zafar and that’s when I did my first international lecture for his courses. And then I started to see a common There is more war. The world is much bigger than I thought. And then this one year I couldn’t see patients, but at least I could see different.

People pass the knowledge.

Yeah. Personal knowledge meant and met new friends. And then when I come back to Brazil, I keep practising in Brazil nowadays because I share my practice with product development. I only work as a clinician twice a week, Tuesday and Thursday. And as an average, we make like 500 implants per year. Because I don’t do any other work on dentistry, I only do implants or prostheses with implants or sometimes procedures to spawn. But mainly it’s in ontology.

So in those two days you’re placing 500 implants across the year. Yeah, exactly.

They do a lot of large. Yeah, we do a lot of large. So then the numbers tend to go up. And like I said, I don’t do any other things and I don’t do wisdom teeth anymore.

I just throw in metal rods in people’s heads and zirconia. All right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And how many how many zirconia do.

All the ceramic implants are doing? Really well. I see it. I don’t see this as a substitute of titanium steel. I see this as a new option. And another two or maybe another technique or another solution we can offer to the patients. I also don’t see that ZIRCONIA implants are not for a niche of patients like the patients that don’t want metal in the body. I don’t see like that.

Okay.

I believe that ceramic implants are for has three basic indications. Number one, patients nowadays, they are no longer patients. They are health consumers. And so when they Google implants ology, they will look after, you know, grafting procedures, the treatment planning. So they have a lot of information on that. And also they can see what implants and for sure, the patients perceptions on aesthetics, it’s much higher when they see a white implant instead of metal implant.

Even if you never see that implant in the mouth. Right.

That’s true. That’s true. Yeah. It’s about the patient’s perception. So I believe that at the moment they start Googling it and they will see what implants. Well, they will ask for this for us. Also, there is another problem we have nowadays about periodontitis. And in that, well, in the literature, we can see that ceramic implants, they have less biofilm adhesion when compared to Titan and implants. So in cases of poor implant itis patients that has already periodontitis. Maybe that would be an implant that makes the patient’s life easier to keep a good hygiene.

Got you.

So for me, it’s about patients perceptions on aesthetics, less biofilm adhesion. And the third one, it’s about the soft tissue relation as well. Ceramic material has a much better adhesion of the junction epithelium. So from the biological point of view, it’s amazing the results we have from the soft tissue when it comes to zirconia compared to titanium.

And then with respect to comparing zirconia to titanium, is there any sort of studies in terms of longevity or strength or anything like that? What are the differences?

Well, for sure, it’s work with ceramic implants is completely different than to work with metal implants. With titanium implants, it’s like, you know, when we used to do bridges with a metal framework at the moment, we started working with metal free bridges, The way we practice, the way we try, the way we work has to be different. So we need to understand that titanium is different than zirconia, and we need to respect those differences. So for example, when you replacing it as a implant, you need to respect the osteotomy if you want the size too much and if you have talks over 16 centimetres, you can put yourself in trouble. So you need to respect osteotomy. Also when it comes to zirconia, we need to have in our mind that the design of the implant has to be different because the material is different. So we need to trust in the industry that did the correct research and for us. For example, we spend about five years developing this product because we were finding the perfect design for zirconia, which is a different design than when you design an implant made on titanium. So we need to trust in that and understand that different words.

And so how many non titanium implants have you placed in patients.

And lapel on the school? We placed already about 300.

Oh, wow.

We’ve been following following up with other colleagues, about 500 in the last five years. And the doctor told me and my boss and I, we did together about 200 implants and we have follow up for about five years. We’re not only doing this in the end of the day, we only have solution for singles between pre molars. And so that’s why in this five years, we only placed this 200 implants.

There’s still a lot, right? You’re following them up. And have you any patterns in terms of bone loss or longevity or anything like that, these early stages?

Well, in terms of bone loss seems really similar to titanium implants. In terms of soft tissue, it’s amazing. We can see soft tissue growth. I never did a research on animal research or preclinical research on the soft tissue level with cornea implants. I would like to I would love to do we already done in Minipigs, but we are making analysis on the Austin integration. So the Hospital for Medical analysis we’ve done was comparing in the same animals replacing one side zirconia and the other side like a splinted mouse titanium. And then we placed implants. We wait for the regeneration and then we did a hostile mathematical analysis and we proved there is no difference between silicone and titanium on the bone level. So the bone biology is exactly the same, but for soft tissue, I never did this in animal. But from the clinical research we’ve been conducting, it looks to us that all the research we read about it is true. The soft tissue has a very good reaction when compared to titanium.

So if we step right back now, said Joe, tell us about your childhood, where you grew up, what it was like growing up in Brazil and your parents as well. So how did you get into the career? So so go back to your childhood. Tell us about that. Brothers, sisters, siblings. What was all that like?

Yeah, well, Brazil is a huge is a huge country. Brazil is a huge country. And I was born in Rio, but my father is a military, and so I spend most of my childhood in a military base, which is is nice. I could play in the street was everything was safe. And also we I mean, I would say 90%, 80% of my time we lived in Rio, but I lived also in the countryside of Brazil. Once we lived in the area in the central Brazil, closer to Paraguay, it’s closer to a big force we have in Brazil because we have Amazon and then we have this area called Pantanal. And so I lived in this place when I was six years old, seven and I have memories from that time. And when we come back to Rio, I started writing horses since I was seven, right? Yeah, maybe because of the countryside, I don’t know. And so my my childhood was basically going to jump with the horses and then, well, going to the beach, enjoying the beach, the nice weather of Rio and sometimes studying. Sometimes you need to.

Study every now and then. Yeah. Yeah. And so what were you like at school? You were a smart student was to get into dentistry. If you’ve got to be a certain standard there and just tell us about it.

Because of the horses, my dream was to become a vet.

How interesting.

Yeah, because of the horses. I would like to become a vet. And that was jumping and that was good about on the sport. And I said, okay, you know what? We become a veterinary. And then I would work only with horses. And then my father came to me and maybe different than nowadays. My father said, You know what, Sergio? If you want to become a vet because you like horses, that’s not the correct way. You shouldn’t work. On things that you, you know, really appreciate it. This is your hobby. You shouldn’t work for your hobby. He said.

Okay.

You should work in something that can sustain your hobby. And horses are extremely expensive. So you need to do something that could sustain your hobby. And I said, okay, you know what? I like biology. And then I said, Okay, maybe if I become a dentist, I could try to do that. And then I did dentistry.

So it’s not just a random thought. Did someone push you to dentist anyone in the family? No, nothing like that.

Zero. No one in the family was. And then I start from scratch and it was basically because of the horses. And then. But then it took me, Oh, wow, 24 years. Because when I started doing dentistry, I by the way, one of another reason why I decided to dentistry and not to become a physical doctor, a medical doctor, was because of dentistry. It’s like four or five years. And if I become a medical doctor, it’s like five, six, sometimes seven. I said, No, I don’t want to spend my whole time in the university. But then I did dentistry, I did specialisation, I did master, I did a P.S..

And now you’re back in the university. Yeah.

So it’s been my whole life studying. And then I quit. I had to stop with the horses because, yeah, I fell in love in the industry.

When did you quit the horses?

It was 2002. And after 20 years, now I’m back with the horses. Yeah. So after 20 years, I finally managed to do this. Amazing. I’m not rich, you know, But, you know, I’m capable to keep the horse. So it’s. It’s fun and it’s fun to to back. To be back on on on this.

And the you as passionate about that hobby today as you were as a kid.

Yes, that’s true. So basically today I wake up five in the morning to go and see the horses from 6 to 7 and then from seven I take a shower and I go to the clinic. So that’s what I do in the mornings. So every Monday, Wednesday and Friday I go to the horses. Every Tuesday and Thursday I go for running. And then Saturday and Sunday I do both.

And so when you say you go to the horses, what do you do? You ride them in a field, you jump with the jumping. Yeah. Yeah. And is that competitions involved in that. Yes. Do you partake in them.

Well, this year I was, I was the winner of the state championship of Para Now where we’re.

Olivia. Congratulations.

Yes, I’m a state champion right now.

Wow. Wow. And so with the. Because you took a break from the from the horse thing, right? And then you come back. How long was that hiatus? How long was that break?

It was 20 years.

And 20 years later, you come back and win the state championship.

It’s like cycling. Yeah.

You never muscle memory. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Wow. Wow. That’s amazing. And so. Okay, so fast forward, you go into dental school. What is dental school like in Brazil?

Well, in Brazil, I’ve been to the Rio de Janeiro Federal School. So it was a public school. And at that time now this is about five years. At that time it was four years. And basically the two first years we do the basic. So we do anatomy physiology. Exactly. All the basic stuff. And then the last two years, we go to every special field. And then the last year we have what we call is like a general practice. So in the last year you spend one year just seeing patients and doing a little bit of everything. But in Brazil, when you graduated in dentistry, if you want to advertise a special field, you need to do what we call specialisation. Specialisation is a kind of a course between a graduation and the master, and this specialisation is just a clinically driven course. So you don’t need to write a big paper, you just need a monograph fee with a literature review, something similar, but you need to see patients doing two years, so you need to see patients and treat patients. And when I finished dentistry, I did my specialisation on orthodontics and the reason why I did X is because the first department on my school wasn’t that good. And I felt like, okay, you know, I know I do specialisation and approach to doing X and then I go to the to my practice. When I did President X, We are starting to do implants in Brazil. So I said, okay, I’m doing precedent, so I need to understand how to do prosthetics for implants. And when I started doing prosthetic for implants, I said, You know what? I think I need to do surgery of this. And then I did a course for surgery with implants, just replace one or two. And then I said, oh, no, you know, I think I need to do something for grafting now because I went to delivery everything for my patient.

So when you did the implant course, we were like, This is what I want to do. Yeah, this is my thing. You fall in love with implant dentistry at that point.

Yeah, definitely. When I was in the dental school, I was. I mean, I really liked anatomy or anatomy and I really enjoyed surgery. So I was as a GP, I was doing with wisdom teeth, for example, reason tooth on the practice. So I was really comfortable about surgeries and then I decided to do prosthetics because I was missing this learning. And then when I did Info ontology is where I could see, you know, the two things that I was falling in love, like the prosthetics and the surgery. Combine it in one technique. So that’s why I fell in love with ontology. And like I said, nowadays I only do implants.

Amazing. And how did you get involved in the product development near what, like you went from riding horses to saying, I need to pay for my horses, so now I’m going to do some dentistry to pay for my horses and you got, you got this place to, you know, you did the specialisation and then from here you found yourself in a position where you are involved in research and product development for any then with the founder, creator of Near Dental. How did that opportunity even come about?

That’s a nice story because I would say I could say that I was lucky. Basically when I was doing my master, I was doing my research on bioengineering, so I was doing photo elasticity in order to understand the stress fields around the implants with different connections. In order to make the photo elasticity analysis, I need a company to produce special implants to place on the raising to make them that analysis. And well, in Brazil we have some local producers. And then on the school that I was doing, my master at Dr. Tommy, my mentor nowadays in my boss, he’s the founder of Neo. Then he went to the school to do a live surgery and then I had my project, my hands. I was a masters student and I came to him and I said, Hey, could you could you produce those implants for me? And he said, Why? And explain it to him. And he said, Yes, So I support you in your research. And then he did a implant and he send it back to me and I did the research. And before publishing, I felt that that would be correct from my side to show him the results before publishing.

So I showed him the results. And then I would say that. Dr. Toma that’s that’s when I got I would say lucky, because he was like an angel in my in my life. I don’t know. We get along together quite well. We have similar lifestyles, let’s put it his way. And then he said, okay, I like your research. Could you present your research to my students and say, Yeah, yeah, I do this? And then I presented a research and then it was 2004 in a congress in Sao Paulo, and I’m from Rio, and this was a big show in Sao Paulo. We had Professor Brenner work on this show. They were celebrating 40 years. It was a 40 year anniversary of integration in Sao Paulo. It was a Saturday. And then, well, I had already presented the research and he came to me in the booth. We were in the boost for near the end, and he said, Sergio, you know what? I’m open and dental school in Chiba Lapel. And he said, You want to work for me? I said, Yes.

Yes, definitely. Why would you say no? There was that look. Was that like the opportunity of a lifetime?

Right, Exactly. Because he saw my presentation before and he said, You want to work for me? I mean, you’re doing a PhD, correct? So what if you work for me and I need people like you in my school said, Hey, that would be wonderful. It was a Saturday. And then I asked him when you want me to start, and he said, Monday morning, 8:00. And I said, Monday morning I’m in front of your factory. And then I get back to Rio. I was already married and I informed my wife as an A Honey, we are moving to Chiba.

Any kids that. This point or the family as well or. No, no, no, no. Okay, kids.

Okay. Hey, honey. You know Natalia. Well, I have a proposal, and I like this man. I mean, I like the way he’d been conducting the business. And, you know, Monday we are including Sheba. And I said, Come on. Are you crazy? Yeah. Yeah, let’s do it. And she was also another angel in my life. And we went together. And then Monday morning I was knocking on the on the door and actually being open and said, Come on, you serious? Are you really here? And then and to today he makes jokes on that because I think that’s yeah, it was really fast.

Amazing. Amazing. And so what’s what’s home life for you like at the moment outside of dentistry let’s say you’re not riding the horses or what do you do? What do you do at home? What do you do for fun?

Well, creative is a nice city. The quality of life is pretty good. Now I have a kid 13 years old, so I’m enjoying most of my time with the family. And also because of this international work that I do, you know, I travel a lot every year and then I’m coming to here to see my friends in a UK. And well, basically we like to travel.

Yeah.

And we have some friends in Katiba and it’s much more, you know, I dedicate my time to the family because I work so much that I think that in order to compensate my physical absence, I try to, you know, the the few moments I’m encouraged by, you know, I need quality.

Your present.

Yeah, that’s just what I do. I say, So what’s.

Your work life balance like?

Oh, my goodness.

It’s tough. Yeah. Yeah.

I work too much. Yeah. Sometimes they complain. Usually I leave home by 530 in the morning and I.

Go to the office.

About eight nine. But then in the weekends now I manage to stop and the weekends.

So on the weekends do they get 100%? Sergio. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And that’s important, right? Yeah. It’s that you can be there and not be there, right? You’re correct.

I think that most of the dentists, they love what they do and since we, we work with the hands and then it’s not an easy job. It’s a tough job, then it’s free stuff and we want to delivery it. Usually we centralise everything with us and then when you see you there, you know, in a big immersion on the patient and you don’t want to leave the clinic and to not finished.

So yeah, in Brazil, here in the UK there’s a lot of, shall we say, like little fear of patients sort of suing you for doing, making the wrong move, doing the wrong thing, blah, blah, blah. And so dentists are fearful on the whole of if I do this or try this or do that, or if I forget to do this, it’s my career on the line. Right. What’s it like in Brazil? Is it is a more relaxed what’s what’s the relationship there like?

Well, I can see that here and in the US it’s harder. But in Brazil is turning to that. We have in more and more legal problems with the patients and night. I believe that also the relation between the dentists and the patients is turning more, let’s say, physical and less emotional. Okay, So that’s when we have chances of this happen. So right now in Brazil, especially some wolves and Belo is the biggest city of Brazil. We have in some some lower lawyers that they are becoming specialists on health problems.

Screwing dentists over basically.

Yeah, dentists and many doctors. Yeah. So the attorney and specialise it on that. And like I said, you know, in the end of the day I believe that we are human beings. Obviously every, every, every problem, you know, everything in life has limits and bounds. But I don’t believe that most of my colleagues, our colleagues, they want to do something wrong to the patient. I believe that most of the dentists, they are trying to deliver the best. But but again, you know, failure can happen. And if you prove to your patients why you did this and that, and if you are convinced about your treatment planning, sometimes I think that people, even though you explain to them because the human relation is becoming different.

Less emotional.

Less emotional, is growing. And even in Brazil, and I tell you that Brazilian patients, they are really patients. Yeah, because already we run a lot of. International courses to get. And then when they see, you know, a dentist here from the UK coming to Brazil, when we are running courses and having these doctors come in today, I can see that they are really amazed with the with the Brazilian patients. But even though it’s.

Changing, it’s changing, it’s getting it’s get it’s moving in that direction, Right? Yeah. Just on that note of like making mistakes and stuff like that, that one of the things I ask on this podcast is revolves around this concept of black box thinking. So in the airline industry, they have this little black box in the plane and it records everything, right? When stuff kind of kind of goes off track or goes wrong or whatever it documents it. And that’s shared with the whole airline industry to improve overall safety. Right. Right. But in health care, we’re so used to brushing things under the carpet if we make mistakes. Right. But if we shared our mistakes with the world, everyone would benefit, right? Absolutely agree. Can you think back to any moment in your dental career where you had one of those moments where you thought, Fuck. What if I just don’t? And how did you deal with it?

You know, it already happened to me. It already happened to me. And I already had this moment. I remember here two big moments that I had in my mind. And I felt because I could see that I did something wrong. And then I felt really bad. The first the first feeling I had, it was depression. I was guilty. I said, Oh, no, I did something wrong. And for me. What I decided to do. I set out to have an open conversation with a patient. So I had all the data in my hands like models, x rays, and I decided to explain the patient what happened, what I’d done wrong, and what I could do to fix what I had done wrong. Hopefully it was possible to fix what what I did wrong, but I decided to have this clear conversation with the patients. And I believe that nowadays with digital dentistry and the moment we are starting to have more and more digitalisation of the patient’s data, it’s becoming easier to have this communication with the patient from the good things and also from the bad things. And also I believe that this digital dentistry can even protect us because we can show the patients the reason why we decided to that particular treatment treatment and then if it went wrong, we can prove to them that the moment we took the decision, there were reasons behind because we have everything, all the data, you know, it’s easy to achieve. You have it recorded, you have it in a cloud, whatever, in external HD. So nowadays I believe that the communication with the patient, even in difficult situations, can become easier because of digitalisation, of dentistry.

Going back to this problem, the patient, you explained everything to them. What happened?

Well, one of the patients from these two worst cases I had, one of them understood and well, we managed to to fix. So I contact another colleagues. That was quite important because in order to fix what I’ve done, for example, I need to do some orthodontics for the patient. So I contact some friends and they help me. One that I think that the network is quite important If you have friends to support you in a moment like that, it’s really important. And usually we then we work alone. And if you stay in the nutshell, not not a good way of doing it’s good to share and to speak with others and and keep your network on. So this guy helped me and the other one, I had to repeat the treatment and then again I explained it to the patient. I cover all, all the costs and I decided to the second surgery to invite someone with a higher experience than me. So I went to the surgery to redo what what, what I have done with a highly experienced doctor. And I believe that training and education is crucial because when you’re doing training education, you can share, you know, the challenges and the decision points with someone that is highly experienced than you. And that’s how I save myself from from this second situation.

What were the two mistakes?

One of them. I extracted the wrong molar.

Okay.

Instead of removing the first one, I remove the second mole in one of the teeth. The other one was a psychometric surgery. We did the zygote, my implant, but I didn’t have the proper engagement of the psychometric implant on the bone. And it was one of the first that I’ve done. And when I did it, I felt that I had poor mental stability. But then we did this in the hospital, and then one week later, when we did the tumour scanning that the the psychometric implant was actually out of the coma, what’s inside? And so sometimes it touched the bone and you have a feeling of mechanical stability, but actually it is not, wasn’t engaged to the osteotomy that I’ve done. And this was because I didn’t have the experience to open the flap correctly, a bigger flap in order to see what I was doing. And so we had to remove this implant and well, we didn’t we even didn’t do another osteotomy. The osteotomy was there is new.

Implant.

Exactly back in. But then the patient had to go to hospital for a second time and.

Well, thank you for sharing that Sergio, because I think it takes a lot to be able to sort of just admit your own mistakes. Right. And at the same time, for other people to sort of say that somebody in your position, a professor, somebody who’s involved in product development, engineering and all the rest of it, is also somebody who makes mistakes, right? So we can we can all do that and nobody’s infallible, Right? So, yeah, I think that’s you correct.

When when we ride horses, we used to say that you only fell from the horse if you hide the horse. Because if you don’t hide the horse, you never felt from the horse. So I believe for clinical practice is the same. If you don’t do patients, then you’re never going to fail. Because if you work with patients, you will fail. We are human beings and what we’re trying to do nowadays is maybe with, I don’t know, technology and artificial intelligence, with softwares, with techniques. We are trying to reduce the human error, but still we depends on human beings. And if you work with people and if you are doing clinical practice, be sure one day something will happen and you need to be prepared on that.

If you could advise a new graduate who’s interested in getting involved in implant dentistry. What would your advice be to that to that individual in terms of the career path, the courses? What do you say to them?

You know, if someone wants to do an ontology, the first thing I would advise is a study. You need to study a lot. Prepare yourself, prepare yourself, studying the basics. I think that you need to study anatomy. You need to study occlusion. You need to study physiology. And then when you are in dental school, you need to be prepared for that by studying the study, the basic dedicating yourself to the basic. I remember until today, the first surgery that I’ve done in my life, that I felt really secure because the first surgeries I was shaking and then and I was afraid of something can bleed more than normal. I don’t know if I can handle if I turn my if I turn myself to a difficult situation in here. But I don’t believe one surgery. Then I open the patient and I had the anatomy in my mind and it was, Oh, okay. So this is that. This is the way to put this. This is where here is where we have the muscles attachments. So when you start to apply the basics on your practice and you are thinking during the surgery. And this is really important because in the beginning you are only afraid. You are like, let’s say, acting on the defence. But when you study and you apply the basics on your patients, practice on your practice with the patient, then you feel confident and you know what you are doing. So immunology requires a lot of basic studies and then be prepared, be prepared to do courses because you need to finish to finish your dental school and to make it in patients. You need to do clinical practice. It’s not only about doing a one week course. Make any plans in the plastic job and you believe you’re ready? No, no, it doesn’t work like that. You need to do courses and you need to do courses in patients. So we need you to practice practical education.

It’s funny you. You mentioned that at the beginning, when you place in implants, you’re scared, right? You’ve got you’ve got this fear. Yeah. When? When, when I was speaking to him earlier, he mentioned a similar concept, right. That these patients. And you’re scared. Right. But he said when I was doing those first implants, I was playing the role of an actor because you can’t let the patient know that you’re scared, Right? Because then their confidence in you sort of changes. Did you have a similar situation there when you when you first started placing?

You know, when I started placing implants, I was worried about the next drill. Okay, which one is the next drill? So I was much more focussed on on the sequence of drill than actually in the patient.

Okay.

And, and I was sweating like crazy shaking. And again, I think that if I had studied more and then because for me you need to be worried about how can I open the flap, how can I release the flap, how can I suture properly? Like the sequence of truth is just as a consequence. So don’t be worried with the sequence of drill. Be worried about the implant positioning. Be worried about the patient’s health. And then maybe nowadays, you know, I would maybe have the catalogue of the company opening in front of.

Me in the order.

Exactly. You know, I would say, okay, let me look at that and then. All right, that’s the next rule. And I’m focusing on the patient and you should be focussed on the patient and not on the system.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So coming towards the end of this interview, what we what we usually ask is I’ve got a few final questions and one of them is Sergio. It’s your last day on the planet. And you’re surrounded by your loved ones and you need to leave them with three pieces of life advice, three pieces of wisdom. What would you say?

That’s a good one. The the first one. I would say be yourself. Don’t pretend to be what you are not. You know, for me. My big personal journey is to understand myself. And I want to be myself. I don’t want to be someone that I’m not. So be yourself. Number two. I would say. Be humble. Because when you are humble, you you are open to learn. When you believe you know everything. You. You know, you’re living in a war that you’re just closing your eyes. And then when you close your eyes and you start only to think about you and you, you’re not humble enough to learn. You will fail. So I would say be yourself. Be humble. And I believe that you should be honest. You should be honest with people. I believe in energy. And if you if you give bad energy to the universe, the universe, we will give you back.

That same shit back to you.

Yeah, exactly. So be honest, be positive with people, and then the energy you get back is a good energy. Yeah.

And so what would you like this to say then? So Sergio was. Dot, dot, dot.

Oh, I would say. Sergio was a nice guy.

Simple as that.

Simple like that.

Simple as that. Yeah, mostly. Yeah. And imagine you had a fantasy dinner party. Okay. And you could invite any three guests. Dead or alive. Who would they be? I won’t tell you in the and situation.

The first the first person I think I would I would invite her to come would be my grandfather. I have had good memories of my grandfather. We had fun together and he was a nice experience. A nice example for me.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I would say my grandfather. You know. I don’t like to regret the good and needed the bad things I’ve done, the bad things I’ve done because no one is perfect. I try to fix. And so. I tried to be with the person when. When when someone is with me. And I believe that true friendship and true human relation, even though sometimes you cannot provide the proper attention to the person, the patient that the person deserves. If is a true friend of you, he wouldn’t, you know, he will understand.

You understand the situation.

Why you cannot be with with with them. So when you say three people is hard for me because I believe that a. Most of the people that I’ve been living with, I try to to be with them when we were together. So I would say, you know, I don’t feel that I don’t have this feeling, you know, I’m missing. I miss it to do this or miss it to do that. That’s why the only person that came to my mind was my my grandfather.

So that was one of my choices. Yeah. Grandfather. Just because I miss him today. Yeah. Yeah.

And maybe because he. I mean, we lost him when I was too young. And so let’s say I wasn’t mature enough to.

Proper.

Exactly to have a population with him. So that’s that’s why I was thinking about him.

Any celebrities or any one that you’ve sort of sort of thought, I’d like to sit down with that person one day. I wish I’d have had the opportunity to sit down with those.

And speak with someone. Let me say, you.

Know, over dinner.

Yeah. I don’t know. I think I would like to speak with Albert Einstein. Yeah, it seems like an interesting character. Yeah. Maybe. And you know who come to my mind when you said Clint Eastwood? Maybe because of the cowboy movies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s cool. That’s cool. Sergio, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you so much.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

To suggest to a patient that I think you should speak to a psychotherapist as the dentist. That could go only two ways. One could be positive. They could be open to it, or one could be like, What are you saying? I’m crazy? You know, It’s like and I guess I had to use various communication techniques to introduce that. And when I introduced that, she said, I’ll try it. And I always I said, I’ll pay for the first consultation if nothing comes out of it. I’m happy to remove everything and restart or let’s see what to do right. And she goes, okay, she did. He called me the next day and said, She’s giving me consent to speak to you. There’s nothing dysmorphic. Everything is fine. There’s no trauma in the past. There’s nothing going on. But I suggest you don’t do anything for three weeks. And she’s agreed to that, too. So she woke up in the middle of the night after having had the therapy about two weeks beforehand and realised that actually she just was seeing getting the emotions of her dad, losing her dad every time she looked in the mirror. And because the only thing she changed about herself was the teeth. It had to be the teeth.

Crazy man.

This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav selling cake.

I think, look, the real worry is there was a time where the man in the street, like the cab driver in the street, would say, I’m going to get my teeth done and I’m going to put crowns on all my teeth. And he’d be the 60 year old guy who mistakenly thought that was the right move. But at least he’d be a 60 year old guy. Exactly. Now we’re getting 21 year olds.

Yeah.

You know, and I think Shorty said something on Tick Tock about you’re going to end up with dentures. You know, I mean, she just said like that. Yeah. She said she essentially said, look, you’re saying whatever you’re saying and you’re feeling whatever you’re feeling. But also consider that you’re likely to end up with dentures now because of this. And we are, as a profession, guilty of not getting that story out enough.

There’s a restorative cycle, Right. And patients need to know that. And then the sooner you start that restorative cycle and the more irreversible, irreversibly you start that cycle, the fewer options you have. So it’s not even that you have to replace it. Some report saying, oh, you have to replace them every ten, 15 years. You’d be lucky to get ten years out of this dentistry. You’re lucky to get five years. We have people coming in, sitting there with little to no tooth left and nothing we can do about it. And then 2123.

So tell me. But when I asked you about the sort of the talking about it. So I wasn’t, I wasn’t really asking why I get why, but how I mean, what you do marketing wise. Yes. You treat people really well. Yeah, I get it. But you have tactics. Do you do you like. I see. For instance, I’m on your site right now. You’ve got these amazing basically the blog posts of questions that people probably asking on Google. Right. What are possible? Some veneers. I bet that works well. I bet these come up well when people.

Wish I knew which one works, which ones work well, and which ones don’t.

You can find out, right? I have no idea.

Because.

Oh, that’s the technophobe. When you call yet.

Again, this is something that I don’t know many people know, but Bespoke smile is owned by me and my non clinical director.

Okay, so he takes care of that.

She she takes care of all of that, which means my focus is clinical dentistry, BCD and Bespoke Design academy the dentist I’m a spokesman academy are my big huge passion and really the dentistry that I do now I do so I’m still in practice, I’m still learning and I’m still every day picking up different things in every case, thinking we could have done this, done this, done this, and breaking it apart so that I can bring a better level of education.

And I take it your business partner isn’t in this photo. The clinical team.

Very well respected in her field of management consultancy and has turned a lot of businesses around in the past and dentistry was new for her. Actually, I’ve known her since we were kids since we’re about 14 years old.

I mean.

And it’s scary to go into business with someone that you have known that long. It is. Sometimes these things don’t work, but we took the risk and so far so good because we have very, very different passions and different skills. What you’re looking at those blogs and the marketing is all her. I just get told what to do. I get emails that write this article for this so-and-so magazine or write this blog, or we’ve got this blog writer who is like 17 and in school holidays and writing blogs and things like that. Can you double check it? I get sent all sorts of things and I just get corrections and things like that. It’s a daily thing. The strategy, the decisions, the what we do, what we don’t do is really not me. What you will what you should know is that everything on my Instagram is 100% me. So any of the video content, what I put on my page, that is, there’s no strategy there. It’s what comes into my mind, what experience I may have had on film and that will go out there and that’s it. So I don’t have any managers who run that for me or anything.

And so, so do you do you do have a master plan that you’re going to should we go all Robbie Hughes You’re going to stick one in every world capital.

Um.

Oh.

Yeah, that. By the age of 30, I’d have ten practices. I’d be playing golf, I wouldn’t be working. And then I see people like you play who’ve done very similar things to that, except not with practices. You know, you’re not having to go into them, not having to see patients, having to go, you know, you’re working on exciting parts of dentistry that need people like you to be to be in the lead of. And I always thought that’s where I would be. But I still loving my clinical dentistry and I’m loving my academy dentist and I’m growing that side a lot. That is really my focus the last year or two. I’ve been growing the academy. I’ve been offering more of what I’ve been asked, asked being asked for, and how we can deliver education. We’re now international. We’re seeing dentists put up on my Instagram all the way from Botswana to come to the training.

I know.

That that was a huge privilege for us to host her and dentists from Ireland, Scotland.

And we have long courses and short courses.

We had we had two courses and I scrapped those courses because it was a little bit of information that was that was actually a bit scary to leave people with. You can’t just show someone in two days how to do veneers and then and then not give them the occlusion and the treatment planning and the psychological assistance with the patients and the emotional side. And you can’t do that. So I got rid of it. And so my focus really is not on practice growth or more practices. Yes, that is in our mind. And that is that is possible, but it’s not where my headspace is right now. My headspace right now is how do I deliver the best education for the First Man Academy and answer more of the questions that our delegates are asking for? And in what? In what way? Is it online? Is it is it in-person? Is it hybrid? What is it? And that’s where my focus is right now, is I really want to grow that that side of things.

So I want to talk about your back stuff a bit more, but. I’m very keen on the dark side. We hear about errors.

Errors. The device.

No, no, no, no. We’ll come to back later. Okay. Errors, clinical mistakes. Times where you’ve you know, you talked about the psychological side of it. Just something tells me you learned that the hard way. Yeah. Even even with my limited experience, I fitted veneers or whatever, and the patient was over. The moon, went home. Best friend said something, came back in tears. That whole thing. Tell me about things that have gone wrong.

Things go wrong. Things have gone wrong. Luckily, I would say now. Through all those mistakes. Things are very, very slick. So if something happens, it’s almost a shock to me that this has happened and then we’ll see why. But we have the answers to why, because we now know we’ve made nearly every mistake. But big mistakes are managing patients expectations. That’s why I talk about the emotional side and the management of the side management side of the treatments. Specific reason do attract patients who have high expectations. Definitely. And that is especially at the level that I’m at. Right. Or let’s say a central London high street veneer practice might be that things are going to be attracting patients who have either existing veneers. And I see patients who have had veneers by the top people that you and I both know, and they’re coming to me and they’re asking for things to be changed. And it’s like, you know, there is a there is a psychological element to this. I don’t look at my teeth as closely as these patients do. And so we’re dealing with people who have very critical eye. But a lot of the time it’s about accepting things, but educating the patient in order for them to accept it. So I call it trade offs. This is the number one mistake I used to make. I never talked about this.

I was taught really to sell a dream and I wasn’t really skilled in any way to manage what happens if that dream doesn’t come true? Beautiful. And that was the biggest problem that I had to fight through. And now I call it trade offs. And I have this conversation with my patients. Some of them do think that I’m a little bit I mean, you talk about communication and you mentioned I’m a good communicator. Some of my patients don’t necessarily like. How direct I am sometimes about some of these things. But what I think they do trust is they trust where it’s coming from in terms of they know I’ve done this enough times that I can say confidently, you will not like that because of this factor. So, for example, a simple one is colour and my Instagram, I’ve talked about this again and again and again. People will come in wanting white straight teeth, but I want them to look natural. That’s the add on bit that we now have, right? And then it’s sort of they know that my vibe is not super white teeth. So we get to my whole process is about creating a set of temporaries that are absolutely diagnostic, whether it’s functional, whether it’s looks. I make so much effort on the temporaries, sometimes the temporaries to the finals let live up to it. We have a process with the lab technician where they should live up to it like they absolutely should.

I approve every single veneer that I fit. I will not let one come out of the lab unless I’m happy with what pictures I see in the lab. So that process is really strict. But in terms of the patient, they don’t necessarily know all that if I’m going to. All they care about is are they going to get what they wanted. And sometimes patients will want everything, but they don’t know that they can’t have it all or they don’t want to hear it. So how do I explain to a patient that usually doesn’t want to hear it in a way that will help them to understand and accept it to make them happy? It’s not about making an excuse for something because I can do pretty much what they want, but I know that there’s some aspect of it that they won’t like, for example, colour if they want it really white, but they want the teeth to look natural and they want the teeth to look small and they want the teeth to match with the lower. And then you have the added issue of what’s behind it. So obviously they’ll be enlightened beforehand to death and they have no more yellow ness and all that stuff. But that understanding of the patient, I’ve now done it.

I’ve made teeth that are too white and they’re thicker because the technician had to have to layer more porcelain. How do I do that stuff and then say to the patient, Yeah, you can get some more teeth? So I now have a trade off conversation and if a patient says to me, I want X, I want longer teeth, it’s that. Okay, let’s break that down. You want longer? See? What does that mean? What is it you want to lengthen? And then they’ll and usually it might be that the laterals are too. Too long. Too long. Right. And essentially, they may not be. They need longer teeth. So you need to deconstruct everything the patient sets and then say, okay, you want longer teeth, what can you handle? Because there’s no point making you something that’s going to break. So let’s add some length. Let’s test it out and then let’s see. And they say, right, if you have these longer, the side effect is going to be that that one is going to look shorter or your canine guidance might go, well, what is the next step? It’s not just about saying, oh, yeah, we’ll give you that. What is the side effect of that? That is where I made huge mistakes because I was led by the patient way too much. And I didn’t I was too scared to.

Explain the trade-offs.

Or explain it. And there’s another video that I put out. You can see I went through a lot a few years ago when I made a video because one of the videos is called saying No. Right? And I start that video by saying I’m saying no in order to help you to say yes. And the reason is that I know they’re going to love it, but I have to get them out of the frame of mind of what one, one, one, one, one, one. There’s an understanding. And those communication things, that understanding things I learned the hard way because I had to redo a lot of cases. I had to figure it out because by spending time at the lab, Why is it that when I ask for this, this is what’s coming back? I just did pop ups at the lab. I used to just turn up randomly to see who’s got my case, which lab technician is working on it, What is their technique? Why is there no consistency? And then I learn a lot about how the materials are used, and that’s when the trade offs thing started.

So, look, the I think when we’re younger, sometimes the thing you said about selling a dream, it’s almost a conversion. That’s the most important thing, right? Because you haven’t done any. You’re thinking that’s what the goal is. Then as you get older and I guess to be blessed, be let’s call it what it is, you’re, you’re more secure in yourself, you’re more secure financially, you’re more secure reputationally. You know what you can and you can’t do. Yeah, I was having this conversation with Andrew Dorward and he was saying, Yeah, look, people mistake talking about complications as something that’s going to lose you the case. But actually, if you talk about complications with authority, the people think, well, this guy knows what he’s talking about. They actually trust you more. So so I get the conversation piece, but I still want to explore the moment something went wrong. Like a God moment or a patient who went berserk psychologically.

I’ll give you an example. Where no matter how much communication, no matter how many trade-off conversations, no matter how much evidence, I have to show that we did everything correctly the first time. The second time. The third time. And the fourth time. The problem that the patient was going through is not going to be answered by dentistry. That’s what the conclusion in my mind is when things now with our workflow and everything that I know now and mistakes, if something gets to that stage, I know that it’s not the dentistry. So I have to now learn to. Well, we have to all as cosmetic dentists learn to pick that up early. And so this case was a case where we had a couple of veneers. She had existing on the front teeth, very old veneers, slightly canted. We agreed to less units than I would have agreed to do now, because I know that wasn’t the right number, because it’s never going to look right on the right hand side. And so we did that, and they looked pretty good. They were a copy of the Temporaries. So fine. Then the patient was going into BCD meeting a few years ago, and I was late because I was on the phone to the patient because the patient was really panicking that she doesn’t like them, doesn’t like it, doesn’t like or do not like about them.

You just got to get used to it. It’s very new, but there shouldn’t really be that when you go to the final set because the final fish should be a copy of the temporary. So the shock factor should really be had been earlier. So that was a bit of a concern. But I thought, okay, some people do just take time. There are groups of people that take a lot longer to get used to things. So then we left it for a bit. Then she sent me another. I can’t get used to it and need to discuss it. Come in. Fine. We decided to change them with some changes. Some corrections didn’t like them. Same thing happen again. And then it was a case of you were happy with the temporaries? Yes. Let’s make an exact copy again of the temporaries, which we did and then still doesn’t like it. And like for different for the trade off reasons. Right. So, for example, I want I want that bit cut. I want she had a bit of a counter smile so we.

Had to cut it. I get it. I got it.

One side had to be longer in order to straighten out the arch, Right. So to do that we had to make one side longer. But I think it’s too long. If you bring it up, we can do it again. And it’s like a back and forth back. But what is the trade off? You either have a candid smile or you have one side longer than another. The fact is it doesn’t actually look longer. It looks correct. So that’s the thing. And I’ve been through this scenario more than once, but it’s just a rehash unless we get into the tiny nitty gritty of like the expectations.

No, no, I get it. I get it. Do you now have a spidey sense for it or is there a process like do they fill out a questionnaire that.

We started the questionnaire. I don’t know what happened. It just kind of didn’t didn’t stick. What I do have a sense now, I do and I can sometimes get it wrong, you know, sometimes it’s still a skill. It doesn’t quite work. There’s still someone who doesn’t have the right expectation at the end, and I can’t really work around it most of the time. No, but I now work with a clinical psychotherapist.

To you.

Who is actually a patient of mine, and he has been through the treatment. So there’s no one better to help people than him is also, he’s professionally trained to deal with people with dysmorphic tendencies or difficulties. Difficulties adapt to change. I have an incredible story about a patient of mine that we treated, and she had a lot of things we could correct. My wife did some gummy smile. Botox. We raise one side of the mouth with soft tissue laser. I placed some super minimal prep, no prep on the size veneers case was stunning. The really beautiful. Couldn’t get used to it. Couldn’t get it can get used to it. But very, very lovely, very understanding patient. The best things go wrong and the patient is on your side with you, you know, that’s the that’s the we’re so lucky when that happens because we’ve got to work together with the patients and that’s what we always try and we don’t want to be fighting with them about it. So this was one of those cases and we had a WhatsApp group, me and my wife and the patient. We’re trying to figure out what can we do with this? And I said to her, and this was this was really to suggest to a patient that I think you should speak to a psychotherapist as the dentist, that is, you know, but that could go only two ways.

One could be positive. They could be open to it and one could be like, what are you saying? I’m crazy? You know, it’s like and I guess I had to use various communication techniques to introduce that. And when I introduced that, she was she said, I’ll try it. And I always I said, I’ll pay for the first consultation. Nothing comes out of it. I’m happy to remove everything and restart or let’s see what to do right. And she goes, okay, she did. He called me the next day and said, She’s giving me a consent to speak to you. There’s nothing dysmorphic. Everything is fine. There’s no trauma in the past. There’s nothing going on. But I suggest you don’t do anything for three weeks. And she’s agreed. That, too. And then he then he called me and said how she spoken to you? Because she said she’s going to she has discovered that she had the veneers done because and this was in the back of her mind, she was nursing her sick father for a year before he died. And he died soon, soon before she came in to see me for a consult.

And she has grown up in a society that’s abroad and another kind of Switzerland where they’re very polite. There’s a big divide with respect of a professional. And so there’s that slight issue. And then it’s the case of she never really had a concerns about her smile. She didn’t reach she wasn’t really that bothered. Someone had said to her once, Oh, you’d be really pretty if you had a nice smile. Sad, but we hear that a lot. And she did her teeth because she thought that that would solve the grief and things like that. And it wasn’t that she didn’t because she was very vague about what she didn’t like, which is when when I start thinking, is it something else? So if anyone wants a tip, I would say someone is not specific about it or they can changing what it is, then sometimes it’s not the teeth. It could be something else going on. So she woke up in the middle of the night after having had therapy about two weeks beforehand and realised that actually she just was seeing getting the emotions of her dad, losing her dad every time she looked in the mirror. And because the only thing she changed about herself was the teeth. It had to be the teeth.

Crazy man.

And she ended up continuing the therapy with with the therapist for a while, quite a few months about other aspects. And a lot came out that was not the teeth were just the just one of the things.

The name she’s given to her pain the.

Facts of the issue. So she she feels still patient about and she’s fantastic. And we removed the veneers and only the front teeth with Canted Midline had the contact opened, so we did some composite veneers for her on those. All the rest are her original teeth because there were no prep veneers. And this is why I mean, this is not that you’re going to have to take them off for every patient, but we took them off. Our teeth are exactly the same. Just super happy. All that emotion she felt. She said to me, I feel like in the chair a weight has been lifted. It’s like release. Soon as the veneers just had to go.

It’s a beautiful story, man.

And that was because a patient was open to me, suggesting, talking to someone else about it and had another patient last week who said, I’ve actually start not she’s just got it’s veneer related but it’s not really it’s it’s and she said I’ve started therapy because this is not about my teeth this is something else. And I think now it’s not as much of a taboo thing. And I have suggested it to many patients sometimes before they start. And it’s some people just say, No, that’s not for me. Okay, fine, maybe come back to me in a few months or some say, Yeah, okay, that’s interesting. Then we do that. And I think that we should, as dentists, be really working collaboratively with people like that, especially at this level of cosmetic dentistry.

So it’s such an interesting learning thing that you just said. Although I think my idea of dark and your idea of dark is slightly different because that seems like a success story to me. I’m looking for a failure story. I’m like, Oh, shit, man.

Um. Clinically, I guess clinically it’s. I don’t think there is one. I’ve not taken out the.

Wrong ID You never did. You never fit, fit the teeth and just somehow you are unhappy. You’re.

Yeah, but that’s not so. This is a good this is.

I don’t know. I’m making it up as I go along. I, I am.

I believe that a case is only successful if I’m happy with it. If my patients happy with it. That’s a base level of success for the case. Yeah, that’s not enough for the case to be successful. It should be both. And if I if I listed every time I was unhappy with the case, we’d be here that you’d never finish.

So, Matty, you know Matty Parsons, he lectures on our composite course, and.

He actually did our training a couple of years ago. 2020?

Yeah. Yeah, he said, he said he he talks about with composite veneers, the most difficult patients being the ones who say, Listen, I trust you. Leave it up to you. You decide because. Because you don’t know what they’re thinking at all. And in a way, you’d think that’s a really good idea. Right? Because give Sam carte blanche to do what he wants to do. But actually, he says they’re the hardest patients when they say white and straight and blocky. At least he knows what thereafter.

Of my workflow is allows them to experience it before they have made. Yeah, yeah. Made the commitment on the shapes and the size and the colour and.

Compared to composite.

Which is the difference. So that slightly is on our side. So if we do get it wrong, which we very rarely do now, right, but we might get it wrong in terms of some of my one squarer look or some of my white teeth, and they’re not honest about it initially because they don’t want to put me off. Sometimes it’s not about us getting the case conversion. They want to get us to convert to good.

Yeah, yeah.

And so and so sometimes you get that wrong, but there isn’t that permanence in our process, so it gives us that flexibility to adapt.

Well, why did you choose Marlowe? I mean, I know it’s a beautiful part of the world. Yeah. There’s there’s, you know, I’m sure there’s well-to-do people there. But nonetheless, you could have gone to central London. You could have.

Yeah. I was never drawn to central London for my first practice because I was nervous about it. I was really, really scared about doing it because I had been told by someone I really respect in the profession that I have what looks like. I have the skills to make a really good associate, and they could see that I probably am a good associate, but not the skills to be a principal and run my own practice or build a brand or. Or be a leader. Because it’s a different set of skills and it’s not for everyone, which is true. It is not for everyone. Right. But I always thought I did have those. So to be told that I don’t have those was really upsetting because I was kind of craving their support for the next step. So what happened was it drove me. I was that I have to have to like if anyone tells me I can’t do something, that’s it. Basically that’s the end. I will. And I have I have to because I have to prove them wrong. But I almost have to prove it to myself that I can, because now they’re putting doubts in my mind that maybe I can’t do it.

So I was in that frame of mind, and so I actually looked for practices that were not in London because I knew would demand something different of me. And maybe I don’t have that. And so I looked for small practices where I could keep my associate position because if everything went wrong, I’d be okay. I’d be able to pick up more days again or something. And that is really that’s how not confident I was to do that. And it’s one of the reasons I even brought on a non clinical partner because I was like, I have an associate job, I can’t run stuff, I can’t decide marketing, I can’t do that stuff as well. So that was how Marla was born, because it was a two surgery practice in an area that I had only been with my with my family for picnics and stuff. It’s a really, really beautiful part of the world, but I didn’t know it well. I knew it was affluent and I knew there’s a lot of Michelin starred restaurants in the same high street.

It’s a beautiful And.

I thought, Well, it must have something about it if, like all these celebrity chefs want to be.

There. Sure.

So that’s that’s why we chose that. And it was affordable to me that it wasn’t a huge financial risk for me and my wife. So it was really about mitigating risk. And that’s how we ended up in Marlow. There was no thought other than that. And then I heard that there were eight other practices in and around the high street, and I started learning all these things and people like, Are you sure? And you know what? The people the clients are like this and that. And at this point it was too late. So it’s just like, well, we just have to we have to make a success of it. That’s not an option.

And say you would have done differently. As far as the practice.

I would have got a bigger site because we have that problem.

You’ve grown into, you’ve grown out of it.

But you know, what would I’ve done differently? There’s not a lot actually. I’m very comfortable with what we’ve achieved, but I am craving a little bit more in terms of space and in terms of being able to house a little bit more for the facial aesthetic side. To my mind, if you.

Don’t do the teaching at the practice, would you do it somewhere?

Yes, we’re lacking a bit of space for that. So we do it at local. Local. We have like a mini conference for the first weekend of the six day course. So it’s all in one site, a really nice hotel nearby, but it would be great to have our own facility for something like that so that there’s that kind of thing that I’m missing that. But it doesn’t impact anyone’s experience of the course. But from my personal, it would be it would be nice. And yeah, I guess it would be nice to be in London, but I’m again, not craving that. I live in London. It would be much easier for me. But you could.

You could move to Marlow.

Know.

It’s an amazing place to live. Now.

This is slightly too far out for me. I need to be on.

It to be half an hour from the restaurants of Mayfair.

By the tube like tube. And my wife works in central London. And she said as she walks to work, both sides park in Hampstead and she she needs to be accessing town. So no, not too far. And I love my patients, but I’m sure they don’t want to be sitting at the Ivy next to me on a Friday.

Or you do. Let’s finish it with back again, back to where we started. What can we expect from a sound presidency? By the way, When when will you be the best? Is it.

Before me? You know, we don’t get ahead of ourselves. We have to celebrate Simon’s year. He’s going to be amazing. Then we’ve got Luke Hutchings. Who?

Oh, it’s Luke. And then new.

President elect this year. And then I’m VP this year. So there’s a two year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What’s going to happen? I have absolutely no idea that I’ve got. We’ve got two presents. We’ve got, we have two boards and we have new people every year joining the board. And so the direction the book is really set out for that year as our strategic planning weekend, which is this weekend for Simon’s. Yeah. So we just don’t know. We are thinking of ways ahead in terms of conference. As you all know, we start talking to you guys for our conference site years in advance. Right. And we have to plan ahead. But other than other than that, the direction we really listen to the members and we really try and give the members what they feel they lacked the previous year. So feedback is so important and we want any members who are listening to this. I really would want them to come and even just even just DM me or whatever, just.

Say, can I say my pick and I say my bit. Yeah. So, so yeah, I’m thinking this like sort of like a warehouse. Yeah.

I love that. So, hey, this is interesting. Wow. We have to select somewhere for 2025, which will be then I think it’s the 2025.

Hopefully by that, by that point I’ll be sitting with your friend in. The Cayman Islands.

But for two years time, I don’t care if the conference is going to be open.

They call it in event terms, they call it blank canvas.

Yeah, a blank canvas. Yes. I would love something. I would love something. I think that is something really cool and I would love to do something like that. I’m not the only person that makes decisions.

And so now that you youngsters are coming through now, maybe there’s a blank canvas. We’re talking gigantic single screen, not not three small screens and then bar bean bags, neon food while you’re watching the lecture.

I think there is there is definitely a lot that can be done. And we’ve got to we I don’t know if you’ve noticed the production level stepping up a little bit every year.

I did.

Yeah. So there’s little things that have been happening, which for me I love, like the lighting and that opening ceremony and the smoke and the music and the really top production filming that we have and all that stuff I think really is necessary and I want to keep building on that. And every year I just push for a little bit more so. So who knows by then? Who knows by then we may have sort of a warehouse project situation, I’m not sure, but I definitely not the only decision maker. And of course, we all know Susie Roland’s the queen of CD. And if she’s happy to run a conference in the warehouse, then then maybe it can happen.

I think I’ll have a little chat with you. Yeah.

Definitely. Listen to you.

Let’s finish this. It’s been a pleasure talking to you, man. A long time coming. So let’s finish with the usual questions that we finish with. Are you ready for fancy dinner party?

Oh, God, no. Fancy dinner party?

Three guests.

I didn’t want to be, like, obvious, you know.

Dead or alive.

That’s on Olivia. You know, I’m so bad with celebs, you know, I don’t know any celebrities.

Doesn’t have to be a celebrity. It could be. It could be Einstein. Your grandfather.

Yeah.

Jesus.

Yeah. I don’t really want to have dinner with my granddad. I never knew him, but I kind of don’t. I didn’t really want just.

I just threw that out.

I was like, Yeah, I do.

And then we had Jesus the last. Last time. Last kiss.

Really?

Yeah. So don’t say Jesus either.

I’m not going to say Jesus as long as they’re Barack Obama.

Barack. Yeah. Well done. Well done. Nice.

You’ve got to respect. Why have they gone out of my mind in terms of like people that have done amazing things? Oh, I got one that is actually really out there, which I definitely want to go, but only three.

Good.

Oh, can I say one? Have you sent the question?

Oh, no, no. You’re not coming in with a third guest?

No, I’ve got one so far.

And you got Barack. You got Barack and Eleanor. Oh, oh, oh. Are you saying. No, I was just saying that the cliches.

Then they are. I’m sure many times before.

We’ll come back to them later. All right. Deathbed.

Deathbed.

You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest around you. Three pieces of advice. You’d leave them and the world.

Three pieces of advice. Number one, life is all about relationships. Because relationships can make or break your emotions, but also where you go next. So be nice to people on the way up because you might need them on the way down. That is definite, number one. And I really believe that a lot. Number two would be don’t rely on anyone else. Be your own person and and keep going in the face of adversity. Never let anyone else tell you that you can’t do something. Learn for yourself whether you can or not. Then let someone else make that decision for you.

That is nicely put.

Now, that could have happened to me and I didn’t let it happen. And I’m glad I didn’t. And what else? Find a suitable partner. If you want one, because. I could not be sitting here at 10 p.m. and I’m sure you would not be able to be sitting here in 10 p.m. if it wasn’t for the significant others in our lives who accept us for what we want to do, sometimes put themselves second for what we want to do. And that is. Is the number one thing. For me, I’m extremely lucky that I found Natalie, who supports me in everything and Will. I’m present. A lot of the time, but I’m not present. I’m pretty much never not in front of a screen or doing something. Either writing courses or something to do with the practice or something. Or I don’t go to social events. She has to sometimes go on her own. And those are things that are a huge sacrifice that not every partner can handle and that could make or break, I think, a career. So that would be the third thing.

Very well said. Very well said. But when when when you chose to ask the big question, I asked her to marry you.

Yeah.

I’m quite interested in this year because what happened to me was I’d been going out with my my girlfriend for ten years or something. And then at one point I said, Right, I’m going to ask her. So what was it that made me do that? I had a moment of clarity regarding a wheelchair, regarding like I was I was going through something. And I thought, who do I want to push this wheelchair? And I thought, Oh, it’s her. Like, I wasn’t going to call my brother, my parents. But but, but, but with our government asking to marry me. And it is an interesting situation, right? Because, you know, life, when life’s good, it’s easy to enjoy it, right?

Yeah.

And we and we all have wheelchairs, whether they’re real wheelchairs or not.

Absolutely.

Are you going to tell me or.

The three guests? Yeah. Could you see that? I was noting something down.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

But, you know, when when me and Nat decided to get married, we had a lot of adversity to fight. It was a year of absolute hell. And that, I think, has made us a lot stronger.

Because you saw what you saw. You saw what each other is like when the chips are down.

Worst of the worst. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s helped us. Who knows? We’re going to be married four and a half years, right? But there’s a lot that I’ve done in my career in four and a half years, and I would not have been able to if it wasn’t for her letting me do that. Three, three people. First would be Jeremy Clarkson, because, you know, it would be an absolute laugh.

Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And he’ll say something outrageous and it will be funny.

And which is I hate to admit it, you’re right. It would be a good party with him.

It would be it would be worth listening to. And I’m sure he has got some incredible stories about guests.

And stuff.

And trips, and I think that would be great. The second I think is probably a bit cliched, but I would I would actually love to learn a little bit more about Richard Branson. I think that I remember as a as a child, the air balloon ride thing and nipping that first kind of slightly outrageous entrepreneur in my lifetime. I think that’s quite interesting putting yourself out there so much and having that confidence.

But, you know, interestingly, interestingly, we think that sometimes with entrepreneurs. But but, you know, the guy who owns, I don’t know, like. I know he’s written a book and all that, but he’s not out there as easy. No, it doesn’t have to be that way. But you like. You know, I almost started Enlightened because of Richard Branson, not just because I remember buying this ticket for Virgin Atlantic. And I was going to fly a Virgin Atlantic and I wasn’t going to fly any other plane. And suddenly sitting on this plane and thinking, what the hell did that guy just do to me? You know, why was it I was insisting on it and not that I was having a bad time, I was having a great time with it was it was it was delivering. Yeah. But I felt that he had done it to me. Yeah. It really sort of woke me up to this idea.

I’m fascinated by entrepreneurs who have fingers in many different industries because in dentistry I definitely feel that we and I definitely I feel that I don’t I don’t know where to even begin. If I was in a different industry. I have a huge passion for property and development and I love that sort of thing. And we do a bit of that here and there. Definitely not in terms of a business, but that is a huge passion of mine. I don’t really know where to start to turn that into a business or even other things I would love to do, but I just don’t really know and I would love to learn from someone who is who’s been in so many different industries when how do you get the right people and how do you how do you branch out just from whether it’s something we do or we don’t do? But it’s just really I would love to know that because I feel like that was a. When we have a vocational qualification.

If you read his books.

Yes.

Yeah. Excellent.

And then the last person, which is a little bit random is Kris Jenner.

Kris Jenner of Of the mother. The mother? Yeah. Yeah. She’s a genius.

Exactly.

She is a genius.

I really do think that she is a genius. Whether anyone respects them for what they’ve achieved or not, it really doesn’t know.

She’s a genius.

You’re right. I would just love to know.

She reminds me of that guy, the wife of Ozzy Osborne.

Sharon Osbourne.

Yeah. You know, like that genius media person, because, you know, you got Ozzy, right? Yeah, she turned that into me.

And I used to watch The Osbournes as.

Me, too.

We do TV, and it’s incredible. And I don’t watch the Kardashian stuff and my wife watches bit in there and whatever. Like, I’m not into that.

I get it. I get it, I get it.

I just think to create a business out of that, I’d find that really interesting to to hear from.

It’s the same way, I guess it’s the same thing. I really, really admire Red Bull, the company, but I don’t drink Red Bull.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It’s the same sort of story. Amazing. So one final. Final. Who would be your dream guest on this podcast?

I think we’ve got to get I would love to hear Larry Rosenthal on here.

He’s been on. He’s been on.

And he said, watch that.

It’s unfortunately, the sound quality wasn’t amazing, but he’s been on.

Okay. So scrap that, then. Yeah. It’s got to be someone you can get on. Is that.

No. But the show is called Dental Leaders.

What’s the name of that lady? Yeah. Not really. Who do I love to listen to in dentistry? Um.

I’d love to have Caleb, by the way.

Have you done it? Has someone asked you the questions?

Yeah, that’s happened. That’s happened.

I would love that. Because you are one of the people that, again, industry I admire hugely. That’s what you’ve done. You’ve always been so supportive of young talent, and you always used to give me words of wisdom and things like that at conferences. But it’s the.

You execute it. I remember I remember telling you, Hey, become a veneer guy. I don’t want to take I don’t want to take the year.

I remember having that conversation with you. It was hands on day on Thursdays outside Amanda’s session. And that’s what you said to me.

It’s Sandra who’s a veneer kind of person, right? She had a great tip on veneers. She said that she can still hear me. She said she. She said to you that she tells all her patients that if if it fits and it’s right on the first go, then it’s very, very rare. It could be the second or the third. So it’s all all veneer patients says to them what she would say to a single, single veneer person so that when it works, it’s great. It’s amazing. No one, no one has a problem. And people are like more appreciative.

Yeah.

On the first.

Interesting, I have the entire opposite conversation.

I said perfect first pitch.

Perfect first time in terms of fit and the copy of the Temps. And if it’s not, then there’s something I have not done right.

Oh, that’s nice.

Too, because the process should not we should not be having surprises on the Fit Day, and I’m not familiar in other people’s workflows, but.

I don’t think she has that many surprises. But she was saying that to have that. So the patient then is doubly, doubly happy when it’s.

Yeah, I can see I definitely the single Centrals is like, yeah, it could be eight times. So not eight. But, you know, that’s I mean we all have our workflows, we all have our way of playing things. In my mind, I always say it should and it very rarely isn’t. And if it isn’t, then I’ll make it right. Because it should.

Be.

It should be. Who would I. Who would I want on here, though?

Yeah. Who do you own?

I would love Gallagher. I would love to hear him because I would. I would love to hear how he feels. Veneers have changed because I definitely have seen that, right? I’ve been in practices where it was the old way and the new way, and now it’s different. And I’d love to know that. I’d love to know how the practice still works and is successful after so many years. And I would also love to hear his take on the dental tourism and how he feels. Yeah, one of the world’s best dentists in a country where this is going.

On and a great speaker. A great speaker in a second language, right?

Yeah. And so I’d love to I’d love to hear I’d love to hear him speak.

But it’s been lovely talking to you. Really has. I’ve really, really enjoyed that. Thanks a lot for doing this.

Thank you. Really, really nice to connect with you.

Okay. I’m going to see you again in real life.

Yes.

You’re going to parties anymore. Any more events you’re going to this year?

I don’t know what’s on. No idea. If it’s in the calendar. I’m there. It’s not.

Thank you so much, bud.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both for me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

And don’t forget our six star rating.

Tell me. Look, a. I know you can’t explain it to me in one moment. Right. But explain it. Explain it to me in a moment. Yeah, Like.

The light bulb was. Occlusion is chilling. It’s not.

Quite okay.

It’s not bite. It’s chewing.

I get it. I get.

It. I remember where somebody said to me once we check guidances into out. Well, not everyone is the same way, but if if you’re cheering to do is moving a to out to in as well. Yeah we do. So there’s not one answer to what is the ideal, but you’ve got to check it in multiple different scenarios. And the most important one is chewing, because that is what breaks your restorations. That is what what goes to show in the first place. That is the thing you’ve got to get right.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sam Jeff onto the podcast. Sam’s a dentist. I’ve known since before he was a den Sam since he was one of the student reps at the back. I think along the same around the same time as Richard Field and Simon Chard and those guys. And it’s actually pretty painful for me watching these these young students who start out as students. And then I’ve watched them go past me. And as far as their knowledge and to what someone like Sam go from student to associate to principal to now teacher and now leader at the last Sam, they became the vice president.

That’s right. Yeah.

It’s a real pleasure to watch it happening in front of my eyes. But this rate of sort of progression that, you know, you’ve got to you’ve got to accept or you’ve got to admit it’s a sort of an exponential up until the right kind of movement. Does it lead to any sort of imposter syndrome or the downsides of this sort of you must be a busy guy, number one.

Yeah. I mean, firstly, thank you for having me here. It’s it’s obviously, like you said, we’ve known each other for years, Right? You’ve known of other dentists longer. But my whole career in dentistry, I’ve known you. Right. So that’s quite big for me. I think in terms of what I guess you’re asking. It hasn’t been that long to have got to where we are in terms of what.

Did you qualify for.

2012? So you’re quite right. It was three years. My yeah, my, my kind of my back journey did start pretty much then maybe a little bit before then. And so it has been now ten years in the back. So I guess the the growth that you see and things like that, I would say it’s not been as quick as I would have liked. Not in BCD, but in terms of you and you look at it, anything actually wait, it hasn’t actually been that long because every year that goes by, I’m always thinking, you know what? What are we growing? What are we How am I growing? What am I learning? And sometimes you feel like nothing’s really happening, but it is happening. And I think that’s that’s the thing. It’s happened over the past ten years kind of quite organically and basically was fundamental for me for that because I wouldn’t be doing any of what I’m doing in terms of dentistry or even in life, because that’s what the industry has given me. If it wasn’t for that academy and it wasn’t for being pushed at that young age of actually going there. And I remember the first ever conference was I can’t remember where it was now, but I was I was alone. You know, I knew of people that these are these names. It’s like the owners of Enlightened, right? They are incredible. And then you have Chris, all who everyone says do his do his course. And I did that straight after tea. And and Tiff Qureshi at the time, who I think was Zach and Tiff and they were like vice president, president or something like that at the time a.

New.

A new and rather Doshi was was up there as well. And some of these people that were doing incredible things. And James Gornick is somebody I always every time I’m at conference and he lives actually just down the road from me, we bump into each other. And I always say to him, you know, you were one of the pioneers. And I said, I still do. But at the time I used to look up and think, Wow, how have they done that? It seems impossible. But if it wasn’t about being around those people, I really would not have known what on earth to do with my degree or where to go or what to say, where to take it. And I remember sitting at one of these early conferences on my own, and people like that would come up to me and say, Hi, Joe Bansal. I remember him very, very clearly. One of the nicest people in dentistry.

Good, great guy.

Such a genuine guy. And he came up to me and he was like, Oh, is this your first conference? He started talking to me. He didn’t need to do that. And that is what I always hope still happens at conferences for the young ones, because that changes your life. Those conversations change your life.

You know, I was doing a podcast from the back. Wasn’t that you were too busy to, you know, around you’re running around. But but I remember I spoke to Nicola Gore and she said something about sort of the responsibility of the veterans to make the newcomers feel welcome, to have them keep coming, which I never I never thought about it as a responsibility in the way that she was saying it.

But it’s interesting.

But having seen your journey and Simon’s and Richards and so many others over the years, when I talk to the student reps now, there’s a part of me that says, Is this going to be the.

No, I don’t think I know. I’m Simon is the president this year and I’m the vice president. And we started that journey together, the both of us. And for us to both be here now doing things like this, it’s for us. It’s really special, actually, the two of us, because we were the same year at university and we’ve been friends since before this. We were friends. And Megan, Simon’s wife is really good friend of mine through through our university years. So to do this kind of together is special. But I never, ever had the ambition that I would become the president of the British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. It was never a it was never a thing on my mind, ever. And it sounds unrealistic for me to say that now. And I’m sure people are thinking, Oh, that doesn’t sound genuine, genuinely never thought I would be in a position where I deserved it. And I think that’s what you touched upon in terms of imposter syndrome and things like that. I wouldn’t say I’ve ever suffered from. I’ve never I’ve never put a label on it, what I was feeling. But I definitely been very, very reluctant to put myself out there in situations such as at a big city conference, having to stand up at the AGM and give a short speech as to why you think they should vote you onto the board. It is a democratic process as an election. It’s not just a case of who you know, although who, you know, is part of the back. And networking has changed all of our lives. You know, that’s that’s the reality. But when you come to the board, there’s an election and the vote the members vote you on.

And I had to stand there after having seen some of my really well respected colleagues who I would think, Oh my God, I can’t believe that they couldn’t get elected to the board. Who am I to think that I’m going to stand there and be elected? So but that first step had to happen. And people around me on the base had to say, just do it. You know, What is the worst that can happen? Okay, You don’t get it. And then the next year you try again. And I did. And so then every time I’ve had to go up for re-election, I’ve been voted in again, which is great because I do put a lot into the academy, but I didn’t do it so that one day I’d become president. I did it because it was part of my life. You don’t really think about it when you’re in that deep that this is a job or it doesn’t feel like a chore. And of course you have a day up, days and down days in any job. But it never felt like that. It’s just this is what I do. It’s part of my life. And I think then the time goes on and you learn a lot about the way the machine works. And naturally it gets to a point where there’s only a certain number of board members and someone has to go for those positions. And that’s just how it happened. But now I feel kind of ready for it. But I would never have thought this is where we would be at this stage. Never in a million years.

Let’s be a nice feeling, man.

Yeah, it is. It is. It is nice. And it’s I do feel a lot of privilege and I feel a lot a lot of thanks to people that have supported me through that. You’re one of them and the board members. Because if it wasn’t for people saying to me, Oh, go for it, or you can do it, I when I was asked to take on communications committee, it was like, you know, I always saw the communications director struggle.

Because.

Running communications of an academy the size of the Bay City and amount of events and now we’ve got every single platform. We’ve got tick tock now. And I don’t understand that I am young, but I’m definitely not at the generation where everything is natural to me, so I have to run in it. I have been running comms committee for years now and I used to think that was impossible to do, but people around me said that I could do it. So you always need someone to lift you up.

I think it’s actually been a good role for you because do you remember when when BCD, one of the the name of the conference was like, like from Facebook, like thumbs up and, you know, as, as an organisation, they didn’t take on social media very quickly. I mean, the world hadn’t taken on social media very quickly. But you kind of I mean, I guess at the time people thought, oh, he’s a young guy, whatever, but you you’re digitally native in, in in the sense that you seem to be very comfortable talking to a camera. You seem pretty comfortable now. You know, I come across different people in this platform as well. So I think it’s a natural job for you. But more than that, I think you’re as a communicator, very good with your patients. Just in a 1 to 1 conversation. If you want to take that back to where does that originate from? Did you were you in school plays or like with why is it I’m a really shy. I’m really shy. Yeah. And really terrible in front of a camera. I just You’ve probably seen me for years. It’s not good. Yeah. Where’s your where’s your sort of thing come from? That strength come from.

I think if I go back to. Childhood. I’m an only child that I have no brothers or sisters. Has that shaped me? I think so, actually, because it sounds pretty sad. But my mom always told me that family, they’re here, but they’re not always here. You know, and sometimes you can’t ever be in a situation where you have to rely on someone, whether it be professionally, whether it be personally, whatever you are on your own. And that was kind of drilled into me in a nice way, in a kind of in a teaching way. And so I always knew that I had to gain a personality possibly that allowed me to not rely on others. And so I was very shy. When I was at school, I actually was incredibly shy. I wouldn’t talk to anybody. I used to find social interaction very, very scary. And I kind of had one or two very close friends, but very close friends. But I wouldn’t be the popular guy. I was never that. And so when I think it’s choice of schooling as well, my parents really I was the only one and they were both working people really struggled to pay for the fees to send me to the best school they could. But they always chose a school that was small enough that they felt could nurture me in terms of the size of it.

So I was always sent to I was sent to main prep school and then high school that was small enough, but they felt that a personality like mine that was very shy and would never be the first one to volunteer for something or anything like that would not get lost. And I think that was very a smart move from them. And so I actually started incredibly shy, but I finished my high school as head head boy of the school. Wow. Which put me into a position again, I wasn’t expecting. And my best friend Nick was my deputy head. And we basically had the best year ever. But it meant I suddenly, having gone from a normal student, had to stand on stage every morning at assembly with the headmaster and give notices, announcements, give speeches. I used to be the one that would be there an open day, giving a speech to the prospective parents and stuff like that. It was I was not given any training and it was just that was it. That comes with the role. And so I kind of at that age then got a lot less nervous about public speaking because I was still young.

You know, you’re 17 and your mind is still malleable. And so you actually didn’t feel the nerves as much as, let’s say I would now. Right. And so I think that starting point was very helpful. And then you go to university and I because I felt like I did that, I would then put myself forward for some of the student council roles and those kind of things that kings. So I did a lot of that stuff. And so then when it came to being a BCD and, and having to maybe stand there and talk to people about why I want to be a board member on stage, I probably wasn’t nervous about the speech I was giving, but I was nervous about how I would be perceived. What do people think about me that obviously doesn’t go away? I mean, I’m still human, and I think that was the biggest worry. But now because of marketing and my my videoing and you mentioned I do a lot of stuff to camera just in general, of course, it’s like the courses and the academy, but also generally to my platform, my social media platform. There’s a lot of me talking to camera. And the reason why I feel comfortable doing that is because I will never I my processes, I don’t prepare.

I have a title. And I started doing those videos because of experiences I was having in the practice and with my patients. And so then I thought, I need to talk about this because I’m sure that other dentists are going through similar things to me and they’ll resonate with it. And these are things it’s important that cosmetic patients in high expectations, things like that need to know. Because I was thrown into a position again where I was doing really high end, expensive, small make overs for people. And so I had to learn a lot about the communication and a lot about the management personalities who can afford treatment like that and have the expectations like that, how to how to use that to help them without it turning into a difficult situation. And so I learnt a lot the hard way. And then I thought, I’m going to get in front of a camera, I’m going to tell, I’m going to talk about it. And then I started doing the series of like patient expectation videos and things like that, and it’s very conversational about me just relaying my opinion. And the response was quite good. So then I thought, Right, that’s that’s actually something.

Did you did you go through a phase of being not very good at it? Oh, yeah. You straight away very good at remember. But you were pretty good back then too.

Well, I don’t. I don’t think so. You know, when you guys you guys were one of the first to embrace this video and really cool editing before these platforms. It was just Facebook, really? Then when you were doing it and you would always have the enlightened video, which is always the thing. But that’s the thing we were most excited about to do, is are they going to ask you to be videoed? And I used to have to say it like two, three times. I would I would stutter and my words wouldn’t come out. And and then you start to forget that you’re being recorded. You start to forget the camera’s there. But it comes with time. And I’m working with dentists at the moment for our academy, where we’re collaborating with other providers and people who may not do as much of that as I do. And and they’re very nervous about it. And it’s kind of like, you know, you just have to the more you start talking, it’s ten, 15 minutes. You forget actually what you’re what you’re in, and then you just it just becomes a conversation.

Take me back to childhood. Did you grow up in London?

I grew up in north west London. Yeah.

Oh, so nearby to where you live now?

Not as now. I grew up in Harrow. Okay, So further out of London.

And the experience of being an only child. You haven’t got children, have you?

No.

Would you. Would you. Would you? I don’t want to say do that to you.

But would I have an issue if that were the only one, you mean?

Yeah. Yeah, because. Because there’s some only children that I speak to say I would never do that. Would never have that my own kids. Because there was a loneliness to it or whatever. How do you feel about it? Because you seem like you’re pretty well rounded and grounded.

I feel in my case it was an advantage. It worked in my in my favour quite a lot because firstly I was had to communicate a lot with my parents, friends and things that older people. So I felt that I had to communicate at a different level. I was never treated like a child because I was not. They had to include me. I was there.

Yeah. You weren’t punching your sister in the face or something.

In the corner while they’re having an adult conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, if they can’t just leave me to the side. So it was like, it has to be there. So I was there. And so I guess that helped in terms of maturity, possibly at a younger age. I don’t think that’s any different now. Obviously everyone is like, I hope I’m not more mature than my age because that would be boring. So I think that helped. But then I never felt lonely. I don’t remember ever feeling lonely and very close to my close friends. And I think that they are my siblings in a way, like my school friends that I’ve grown up with since the age of 11. We actually all live in the same area within like literally 5 to 7 minute walk away from each other. And we are very close and those are my siblings. In a way, family is around, but actually cousins. A lot of us have very different lifestyles and we’re not as close, but we do keep in touch. But my friends were kind of like my siblings and said, I know what you mean.

I know what you mean. Because, you know, I’ve got loads of cousins all over the world, but some of my close friends are closer to me than my cousins. Yeah, and I see them as family. You’re right.

So the whole, if you like, if there was a hole to fill, if the number that I felt that was that, that was it was. And I think actually it wasn’t a problem. And if it really were in a situation where we had a child and we had one child, I would be perfectly fine with that. So I don’t think so, no. I actually see it as an advantage. I do my best as a parent. If that is going to be the case. It may not is to try and replicate what my experience was as best as possible.

And your parents? Dentist or anything?

No. My dad worked for telecommunications company for his whole life and my mum worked in the NHS and started as a rep from like a rep for one of the private hospitals and then a receptionist, actually a GP receptionist said right at the beginning. And then after that she worked with Imperial College School of Medicine for a long, long time, and she’s still there now where she coordinates their undergrad medical course. Oh, so that’s what she’s been doing for over 20 years now.

So do you remember when dentistry first showed up on your On your radar? Yes. I think you were going to do.

Incredibly clearly, actually. Yeah. So Jamie Popper always gets a shout out in this stage of a question because he was the I don’t know if anyone knows Jamie, but Jamie is is a great dentist who great guy is also an incredible guy. One of the most fun people in dentistry.

Definitely.

Definitely. And Jamie live next door to me and his brother, who’s an orthodontist while they were studying at Kings, lived next door to my parents at the grandma grandparents house. And I was nine years old and Jamie qualified and in his vet bought a BMW Z three, which was brand new at the time. It didn’t have a driveway and we had a driveway. And so he came to ask, my mom said, Auntie, would you please let me park my car in the driveway because we don’t have one and it’s new and etc. And obviously we were very keen for that because I loved cars. I still do, but that was very exciting for me. And I used to watch him go to work every morning at the window and I’d wave and I’d look at the car and it was it was just like, Wow, I can’t believe that’s amazing. The mom said to me in a really just without thinking, Oh, he’s a dentist, you know, if you want to call it that, become dentist. Didn’t know anything about dentistry. I didn’t really have never even thought about that. And then I think it was just a seed that was planted.

It was nothing really about the car or about anything else at that time afterwards, because I kind of forgot about that. It all then was that. Oh, dentistry. Yeah, that’s, that’s obvious. That’s what I’m going to be doing. I was nine then, so by the time I was then 11, I started my high school. It was sort of like, Yeah, I’m going to be a dentist. That’s all I wanted to do. And so everything I did in terms of work experiences and various other things through summer was always geared to put me in a situation where hopefully I’d have a good enough CV to get into dentistry at least. So that’s how it started. And then one of my dad’s good friends is with his dentist and they became friends through my dad’s a singer and they love music. And so that’s where I then went to shadow him and I would get the opportunities that very hard to get in terms of work experience. My mum worked at North Park Hospital, so that was a way for me to go into the hospital and confirm I didn’t want to be there.

More than more.

Than anyone.

Else. Lake Park Man Yeah, I can understand.

It was sort of like, I definitely don’t want to do medicine and I definitely don’t want to do a type of dentistry that puts me into the hospital. So that was, that helped. So by the time I got to applications, I was it was 100% dentistry and it was 100% cosmetic dentistry because by then I was introduced to ten years younger and these shows and I used to think, Wow. And I remember when I went to my dentist, my dad’s friend, I tipped my upper right one is still there. I can feel it. You’d never be able to see it, but I can feel it. While I was biting a paperclip and it was the most boring way of breaking a tooth. And anyway, so then I took I went to him and I said, Look, this is broken. He did something. At the time I didn’t know what it was, but now I know it was a tiny composite or a bit of bond or something. And the chip I was feeling on my tooth, I couldn’t feel anymore. It felt smooth and I couldn’t stop going on about it.

I went magic of it.

Got you talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought, Wow, like that. And I mean, it came off. It was such a small tip that it would never have lasted anyway. But I didn’t even care that it came off. It was that. That feeling I had after that smoothness, that this is something I would learn to give people that that how happy I feel right now. And that’s when I knew then cosmetic dentistry was what I was focusing on. And obviously that’s why I went to that first base all those years ago and that’s. What.

Did you not consider leaving London for a university?

No, actually, I was desperate not to leave London. I didn’t anticipate at the time London University life. I didn’t really think about it. I was thinking about convenience and it would be easy to go home and see my friends at the weekend or go back to parents, and I was thinking about that kind of thing. And the plan was always go out live in the halls for a year, come back because I was commutable to Kings. Obviously I never came back. I ended up staying for the whole five years, which was the best thing ever, and I did love it. I really. I look back on those days and they’re fantastic.

You know, I’m having this conversation with my son right now. He’s in this GCSE year and I’m number one. Do you want to be a dentist? And he’s like, Definitely not. And I even had him at my one of these photoshoots and I put him into canals, Lamborghini, and I said, Hey, push, push the accelerator there and see what that’s like. And you know, that’s what dentistry can get you. And he came back and said, Sir, where’s your Lamborghini? All right. But number one, that but number two, the question of leaving town for university. And I ended up going to Cardiff by mistake, as in so much as I didn’t get my grades for London but I wanted to stay in London as well because, you know, at 17 you kind of think you’ve worked stuff out. And so, you know, having a good life, good friends, going out for the first time, girls, the whole thing. But actually, thank God I left. Yeah. And, you know, there’s other more enlightened people than me and you to go and have a year off.

And.

Travel travel the world and then go to university a long way away. Anyway, that question of reinvention of yourself in a new town. I’m I’m sure there’s an element of reinvention in a new part of town that exists, too. But student life in London can’t be that interesting because you’re just such a low priority in the town.

Yeah, I guess. But, you know, students have a way of finding student things no matter where you are. So we see you guys bar at Kings and Kings is listening to this. It will know about that. That’s and you had all the clubs we had on the Strand. We had we had our clubs and that was a big part of uni life. But then I actually feel really fortunate to be able to have lived in sort of zone one London as this is a very expensive place to live. As a student it was affordable because we had a student loans and back then it wasn’t as expensive. But you get a chance to learn about the city that you love, having grown and grown up in the suburbs. And now I can drive around London. I don’t need SatNav. My wife will disagree. I feel like I know the city really well and that’s from my student years. You know who gets to live on Tower Bridge Road by the river for four years? This is not normal thing. That’s amazing. And I loved that. And then my Out of London experience came in.

Oh, where did you go?

Cornwall.

Oh, my.

God. I guess if you think growing up in the suburbs of London going to Kings and then at the end of this, just before the end of the year, you get the email because it was the first year where they changed the way.

They decide where you go.

Yeah. So you have the ranking you rank.

Yeah, yeah.

And I thought I first ranked all the London and then, then I ranked all the stuff. I thought, well that might be nice where I would go on holiday. So obviously Cornwall came and then, then you had other cities up north and things like that. And I didn’t ever expect none of us knew what was going to happen. It was the first year it was 2012. We really didn’t know. And so I clearly underperformed in the interview and didn’t tick the boxes they wanted me to tick. So my ranking was not as high as I would have needed to get London. So I got the lark, the first one that I put after all the London ones, and that was Truro and Cornwall, and I was distraught. I just felt like my life was over. I would not be able to go and go there. It’s so far away. I just cried and I was on the phone to my mum and it was it was heartbreaking and how wrong I was.

Yeah. Best thing that ever happened, right?

Best thing ever. It was so much fun. I made good friends and had one, my friend. In fact, I ended up sharing a flat with a dentist called Jonny, who now lives in the Cayman Islands. As a practice out there. Yeah, with one of us. I should really be talking. Him and I met at the They do like a meet and greet with all the trainers and you get to matchmake basically it’s like a speed dating and we hit it off straight away and like, right, we’ll get a flat together, we’ll move in and, and we did it. And we had the best year in Cornwall, and I was teamed up with one of the most amazing people ever. Mark Smith, who is a does practice now is retired. He was he was my trainer and I learnt an incredible amount from him in terms of management of the practice, in terms of patients, in terms of the business of dentistry, but it’s also in terms of life work life balance. He really had it really well nailed and, and I just thought that was incredible. He knew that I didn’t want to be there initially because he actually is from Surrey and he moved down to Cornwall because they had a holiday home there.

They love going and he thought, Right, I want a better pace of life and saw the practice in Surrey and set up. Back then you could set up a new NHS practice on the High Street as you wish. So he did that and he he said to me on the first day I remember, Sam, I know you don’t want to be here. What can I do to make that better for you? And I mean, what an amazing thing for a trainer. I don’t know everyone’s experience, but I definitely know the experience of a lot of vets who went to the places I wanted to go to. And it wasn’t. It wasn’t like that. So that first question was, I want to go back to London. The answer to that question is I want to go back to London every weekend if I can, because friends are having birthday parties, this and that. And he was like, okay, fine, I’ll just close the practice at 2 p.m. on a Friday. That means you can get the 242 What.

A great guy.

Incredible at all. You can fly from Newquay, it’s a 40 minute drive and there’s a ten plus three, ten plus three flight and I did that for the whole year.

So every weekend.

Seven weekends of the year I was in Cornwall, of which one I was revising for MJF, one one of our v t and we had a birthday that we all attended and the other others were when people visited. A holiday destination. And I flew back and forth and it was brilliant. I used to because he he decided it wasn’t just me. He was going to let off it, too. The whole practice was going to just shut and he just changed that.

Oh, what a cool man.

And he and he did that for me. So I went back and forth. Now, I can’t imagine now having not lost Mr. Flight or Wonder Wonderful Cancel didn’t happen the whole whole year. And I was back and forth and I would get to London and my friends had finished work by 730. I’d be there at 730 at London Bridge from Gatwick, and it was great. And I’d fly back Sunday night and it became a routine. But it wasn’t just that. It was also then the he said to me, What else do you want to learn? You know, the clinical stuff. I don’t really need to teach you. This is NHS dentistry and you’re, you’re going to learn it. And I had incredible beauty training nurses who really taught me something. And the one thing I still do to this day, one of my nurses said, When you finish the day, just thank the nurse for sure. Just say thank you. Don’t just say see you tomorrow or bye or whatever, or just leave. Just say thank you to your nurse at the end of the day. And I still remember that even to this day. And I still obviously still do that. And now I thank the whole team. I say thank you, thank you. And leave that those simple things that from that one year really, really helped, I think shocking.

Shocking the number of people who don’t think their nurse you know, or who don’t make a cup of coffee for them.

Would I have known to have do that naturally without having had some.

Other work to do? This Marc seems like a great guy. He does. He’s great. And, you know, like you said, the idea that he helped you both in the clinical, non-clinical, the management side and then this sort of way of looking at life way of things.

And I have that right, by the way, I definitely failed on that front.

But what I was going to say was that I had a similar experience. I had a very excellent boss. I had him on the show, just one of my favourite, still one of my favourite people, and my business partner who, you know, had a tyrant. Tyrant of a boss.

Yeah.

But I’d argue that, you know, he learnt what not to do and you know, in life, learning what to do and learning what not to do are both important. Did you consider did you consider staying on in Cornwall at all or. Absolutely not.

It crossed my mind definitely, because obviously willing to accommodate me. But it wasn’t really it was always I had to come back to London. It wasn’t ever really a thing.

So where was the first place you worked after call?

After that? It was a case of sending CVS Blanket to every single practice. I mean, I’m sure at the time when you owned the practice, you probably ended up with one of my CVS.

I never owned a practice. Yeah.

Oh, did you not?

But did you what, Blanket send them out or did you send them? Send them out to people. You wanted.

Jobs. I sent it to every practice. I went to Mum’s work. We photocopied, photocopied, printed, printed, printed, unsolicited. Right? Yeah. And just sent it to everyone. And hardly anyone got back to me, I guess, because I. I think about it now. Do I open the post at the practice? Do I actually see what’s coming in? Probably that wasn’t right. And do I see the emails? Do I. I mean, I do log in now and then, but I don’t actually. So it went to the wrong people. It didn’t go to the decision makers. That’s the first mistake. The thing that did happen is, you know, it’s someone knows someone, someone knows someone. So I ended up being introduced to a dentist called Sunil, who had a practice just near Brent Cross in Hendon. I now have met these lovely, as I keep saying, these lovely people, but they genuinely are the best people. And that’s, I think really what’s helped me. He met me. He said, Come to my house, Let’s go through your CV. I don’t have a position right now, but I’m on the local dental committee, NHS in the area and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll take some copies and I’ll give them to everyone there. And I said, Oh, that’s amazing. Thank you. And we got on so well at his place and turned out, you know, that Asian community in London, north west London, the Gujarati community specifically. It’s like.

Orgy.

Everyone knows everyone turned out that his this, that and the other is cousin whatever knew this person that person and there wasn’t really a connection but it’s roundabout here and there and I think those things that did help because he then called me and I remember sitting at the airport to fly back to Cornwall, and I was really getting a bit nervous by this point because I’d only a few weeks before the end of the year and I hadn’t found an associate position and I was I had found a position in a private practice where I was doing a Saturday. So about three or four months before the end of my duty, I would fly back and do a Saturday with private practice. But it was kind of mentoring me a little bit on various things. And then then I’d fly back. So I had that. But that was a day and it was kind of half a day and it wasn’t really there wasn’t capacity for me to be there more, and I wasn’t sure whether I felt out of my depth entirely. I really have no idea what I was doing in terms of the clinical. I was really lost and it wouldn’t have been the right decision. But then I was sitting at the airport and Sunil called me, goes, Do you have a minute? Yes, because I have an associate who has decided to hand this notice because he’s he’s working. He’s going to move into private practice and I have a position available at the end of next month, and I just couldn’t believe it.

His own.

Place? Yeah, his practice in mixed practice in London. And I started there straight after, pretty much straight away. And that was where I stayed right up until that transition. Then I transitioned. I really like a day at a time into private practice in around about 2016, early 2016, and then a little bit before that, possibly. And then and then that became fully, fully private about a year and a half after that.

Where was the where were the private practices?

And then and then and then it comes down to BCD, because this is where I got a call from or a message, I think, on Facebook from Rahul Doshi basically. President, you had a practice in Hertfordshire, perfect small studio, beautiful place, which was, if not, is the pioneering practice, I believe, for, from what I know, 20 or 20 plus years ago, bringing cosmetic dentistry to the UK. And it was sort of the founders of the BCD and then this sort of Larry Rosenthal inspired practice that I was introduced to at that time. And I remember this and I’m sure I won’t mind me saying I remember going to the interview and this is I guess it’s the imposter syndrome. Again, something I felt like I wasn’t ready. I felt like I wasn’t ready for it. I also felt an incredible amount of loyalty to Sunil and my practice in Hendon, and I was earning well as a mixed practice and I was happy. I didn’t really know what else was out there for me, and I felt that I was and I dragged roll along for six months. I was like, Yeah, yeah, I’ll give you a starting date, I’ll give you a start date. And meanwhile I was plucking up the courage to like, almost like breaking up with my, like my uncle.

So now.

I’m leaving. And I just felt like, oh my God, I can’t. And I asked everyone, is this the right decision? People who wouldn’t even be able to help me with the answer I asked like, should I do this or not do it? And I was really worried about my income. I said, Now I’m earning a decent amount. I’m happy. I’m worried about that. What can he say other than don’t worry about it, The system here will help you.

And did you not have insight into what kind of earnings you were going to make at Raffles?

Yeah, but only from what he would tell me.

Right. You weren’t sure? Yeah.

And how do I know what to really believe? I know he, you know, and there’s that suspicion that comes in, like, why is he asking me? I remember the interview I said. He said to me, Why do you want to work? And that like, I don’t want to work you asked me for it.

Was Laura Horton there at the time. I know she’d, you know.

And, and then and that was the that was the reality. It was sort of like I really did feel out of my depth again, another stage in my life. I felt like I said to him, But why did you why did you ask me? You know, there’s truly more qualified people. I’ve done Crystal’s one year, which is an overview because again, I’m not confident in every aspect.

Had you done Rahul’s course?

No. He had stopped his course by then.

So was just back. He’d.

It was just VCD and other courses through CD. That was it. And in Cornwall I’d done Jason Smith and stuff because I was shadowing him every week because, Oh, where are you Road from him. And again, Mark, let me do that because he knew that’s what I wanted to do. So there were things that I had done, but I didn’t feel confident with it. It wasn’t using Rubber Dam to put composites on it, but if I did, it would be like a struggle to put it on and I was still really inexperienced. I’ll go into a private practice where they’re doing full month rehabs and stuff. That makes no sense to me. I can’t do that. So it took six months for me to agree to do a day at the studio, and that then turned into another day. Another day, and it turned into five days.

I mean, Perfect Smile Studio was a real pioneer insomuch as it was an It’s Hertford, isn’t it?

Hertford Yeah, it’s not London, it’s not central London practice.

It’s not like I mean, look, if you talk pioneers, I think I think Surinder in Knightsbridge.

I used to watch on ten years younger, right? Yeah, me on TV.

He was as far as that shop front, cosmetic dentist. Of course there’s been cosmetic dentists in the West End for yonks for 50 years. There really has. But as far as that question of being sort of out there right in front of people, but what was amazing about Roland and Place, and I think both of you were there was just Rollo’s place, was it? Yeah, Was it was in this middle of just this regular town in Hertfordshire. It was like I remember the first time I walked in, I could not believe they’d done that in this location. And I remember Laura Horton was the practice manager when I first went there and just so well run, man, just so well run, you know, they, they just knew something that everyone else didn’t in so much as they just went for it. They said, We want to be the Rosenthal practice of this this town.

You.

Know, impressive. And Rollo’s was a great guy. I mean, he’s a good teacher.

And that’s what then introduced me to this level. And I created a bit of grief. I’d get treatments wrong. And I remember I would refer me things and I would be again, so like not skilled enough to do that. And, and it would create problems because some things had to be redone. And, you know, I wasn’t great at this stuff, so I felt I needed to up my game a lot. Went out to RCD Did Jamie put on a DSD course on a yacht, which some people are Christian coachmen? And I learned a bit of that. That was incredible. And just kept. I used to spend all my money on courses and holidays at the time. That was it. And I was earning more than my friends were. Right. My friends are now partners at law firms and from the school friends who’ve done really well. But at the time everyone starts off a little bit lower income levels than dentists do. And so we have spare money. So actually I even say that now to our academy dentists look put, put that on towards your education because that extra worry that’s you go to self invest and that’s what I did and I begged roll please run your course once more just for me and said look I’ll make your life easier because you won’t have to sort of have to keep fixing my stuff and and it will mean that I can learn properly. Like it’s one thing to go in and watch someone doing something they’ve been doing for 15 years and come out of it and be like, Wow, that’s amazing. But you actually don’t learn anything. Yeah, they make it look easy because it is easy for them by that stage.

So what do I get out of that? Like other than being an all of you? Well, not actually that much. So I needed to make the mistakes. I needed to learn the hard way, but I needed a I needed a workflow. And so I begged him to please teach me about occlusion or whatever you knew about that, which is one of the big things he used to teach on his course. And so I did that and he kind of rallied. It goes, He’s my implant guy now who I met there. He had already done the course. All said, Do it again, Sam, Let’s do it. So let’s do it again. And then we’ve got a couple of other people in. And we had a small group and that then clarified a lot of things for me that were clinically confusing, specifically occlusion. And then I went and did more and I met some mentors of mine. And on that course that Shramik organised on the yacht, there were of course trained people, extreme expense, and I met some people there and Sandra, who like is in who’s in Hong Kong, she’s a course mentor and I think she may be accredited. I don’t want to say the wrong thing, I’m not sure, but she remotely helped me a lot from from Hong Kong. She I would send her cases and pictures and she would reply and help me with what? Do. And combining that choice kind of occlusal principles with some of the stuff that Rahul was, was teaching me as well, and then making the mistakes and learning and doing indirect work so much. I then kind of figured out my way and that’s how it started.

Tell me, look, Occlusion for you, what was the aha sort of moment with occlusion? Because, you know, we all think we understand a bit of it. And then the more you look at it, the more the less you know and all of that. But specifically, especially with the work you’re doing, yeah, it tends to be anterior indirect, Right. Most of what you’re doing. Yeah. So you’ve got these shortened teeth, something shortened those teeth, right?

Yes.

Just I know you can’t explain it to me in one moment. Right. But explain.

It.

Explain it to me in a moment. Yeah.

Like the light bulb was. Occlusion is chewing. It’s not.

Quite okay. It’s not the mood function.

It’s not fight. It’s cheering.

I get it. I get it.

That was then. Oh, right. Okay. We move our teeth. I can’t remember where, but somebody said to me once we check guidances into out, but we chew. If not everyone feels the same way. But if you’re if you’re seeing a jaws moving you tune out to in as well. Yeah. On another we do. So there are not there’s not one answer to what is the ideal, but you’ve got to check it in multiple different scenarios. And the most important one is chewing, because that is what breaks your restorations. That is what got those teeth show in the first place. That is the thing you’ve got to get right. So checking, chewing passes, understanding that, and then training our eyes to see it. Even before the patient said a word. You know that casting this is a category. The way the way I teach at the academy is we need to categorise the bite. You see someone look at their teeth, right? They chew like that. Then you go to confirm it, doing the test and then, you know, right there, this type of chew, this is not workflow, whether it’s a rehab, whether it’s veneers, whether it’s bonding, whether it’s also I’m seeing a lot of cases constricted is also being done and not enough IPR or not enough debt and things like that. All that stuff then came from that light bulb which was occlusion is chewing vision is not.

It’s very interesting thing to say, you know I’ve never heard it said like that before that out to anything particularly very interesting. It’s actually very true now that you think about it.

So that that’s changed that change everything for me because then it was all the stuff I knew how to layer composites because I’ve done Jason Smithson’s and I’ve done I was not have been on deep and things like that. So I’d seen these things, so I knew that. But what I didn’t know is I couldn’t say to my patient that is going to last or that is not going to last. And why? Yeah, I remember being in the practice in Hendon and one of the dentists there, he’s the founder of that practice. He was nearly 80 when he retired. He loved dentistry. He was he still is fit as a fiddle, amazing guy. And he was saying to his patients, don’t worry, that is going to be absolutely fine. It’s going to last few years. And me having been graduated 2012, rolled up with defensive dentistry, how can you ever say that a patient is going to last years? And what if it doesn’t? And I used to sit in my surgery because my surgery’s next to reception. Hear him say that. Oh my God, How is he saying that’s such a mistake? You can’t say that to a patient. We’ve been told never guarantee anything. Never say anything is going to last. Because, you know, But now I do say that and I’m confident in that. I can sit there with a patient and say to them that this treatment that I’m going to do is going to give you this amount of predictability.

I love I love I love the way you came up with that Aha. On occlusion. So let’s let’s continue with the AHA’s. Maybe we should have a whole section of this podcast called Aha. But look for me, I did a lot of veneers by the way, because back in my day there, that was the only thing that you could do, two years of train tracks. And I was at the very beginning of the Rosenthal, you know, hang out with Larry in New York and all that stuff and. I never had to do it. I didn’t do anywhere near the number you’ve done. Yes. So let’s let’s get a get that clear first. First of all, I did maybe, I don’t know, 40, 50 cases in total. Beginning to end. Yeah. Now, I never had any fall off. Yeah. I never had any chip in the short period that I stayed around, by the way. Yeah. Because I wasn’t there for that many years. But staining. Yeah. Staining was my. Aha. On, on veneers and specifically in the proximal staining because you know the, the recession type staining and I know there’s things you can do about that but into proximally and you know the extending, extending the prep a bit further proximally Right. So that you wouldn’t have that problem. So something as simple as that. Now later on I was doing all of this just, you know, off the back of a Larry lecture later on. You know, you watch Gallup talk about bonding to enamel and not dentine. I wasn’t doing that. I was I was prepping it. The more you prep, the easier it is right to make it look good. But but when when you hear the stats on on the survival rate of the thing while you stain enamel and then the minimal prep through the temporary and all of that. I wasn’t thinking about any of this stuff. Right.

Yeah.

But in my short crappy little career in porcelain veneers, staining was my. Aha. Yeah. Give me a couple of yours. You a couple of years. I know you have a whole course on it and let’s not let’s not let’s not be silly, but couple a couple of things regarding I know prep regarding small design.

One of the things I would say is I make I hand make my temporaries go to. I don’t have whacks ups unless it’s a specific type of workup I need for a rehab and then it would be sexual and all this sort of stuff for that. We don’t need to get into that. But in terms of you asking for like a light bulb moment, yeah, my goal always is to give my patient the best possible version of their smile, right? Not a new smile that has been transplanted onto them.

Hence, peace broker.

Exactly. That’s where the name came from. This fake smile. Right. And that has been a shift in what patients are asking for. I don’t think Michael APA is one of the people who’s who’s created that look incredibly well. And it looks so attractive and it’s all it is. Millions of people see it on social media and people are seeing that. And Dennis is trying to have started to replicate that. Patients are starting to ask for and of course, it’s regional. My my patients specifically tend to ask for 90%. They want a naturally perfect smile. That’s why it’s on my Instagram page and you scroll, you’ll see a video called Natural versus Perfect. What does that mean? What are those words mean? So my goal is always to try and create that. If we ask a lab for a waxer and we say to the lab, wax up 5 to 5 veneers, please. And we’ve all been there. What on earth are we asking for? Whatever’s going to come back will be the lab technicians Best attempt. It’s never their fault because you’ve given zero information of what they think 5 to 5 veneers should look like for that patient. They’ll base it on if they have photos. Great. They’re based on the model and then based on golden proportions and ideal length. I went to a lecture recently where someone mentioned still 11 millimetres should be the height of the central absolute nonsense that is historic and the height of the sensor should be for the rights of the patient. It might be eight, it might be 14. It’s going to be according to what they’re showing when they’re talking or smiling, all that stuff. So there’s no parameters like that that you want to stick to, but that’s what the tech will stick to. Then you get the wax up back and you put it in the mouth and you have basically a new mouth to work with. And we all know as cosmetic dentists to get a good smile to look great is much, much harder than getting a real mess to look.

Average right to go to a plus one rather than a zero, right?

Exactly. And by asking the lab to just create your wax up with no information and no guidance or even a little bit of guidance, you’re making your life much harder because then you have a good smile to improve upon. And I found that that’s what I was I was doing. I was getting these wax ups and I was having to adjust. And then I was adjusting and I was adjusting wrong because my hand skills were not there, my eyes were not trained. I was doing that wrong and I was messing it up. And then I just realised that why don’t I just start with the pre-op and IV treatment plan the case with the patient or on my own saying this is what I need to do from the pre-op, so I need to add length there or I need to bulk that one out or I need to rotate that one. That is all useless exercise. If you’re going to get a wax up that is doing something else and then you have to retreat and plan. But you were planning in the patient’s mouth in the chair, which is really not what you planned for. So you do all the planning and it’s pointless. So I just thought, I’m just going to start from the beginning, from the pre-op and then use floatable composite to shape each tooth to be what I want to be as an enhancement of the original shape and actually ended up finding that easier to achieve my desired aesthetic. What I was wanting to create. I want my cases to look a certain way generally, and luckily my patients tend to share that. And so that’s where I then started that technique and that was.

Do you teach that?

Yeah, that’s, that’s one of the.

Is there not a degree of like composite artistry that you need to have to, to, to be that guy. Or if you got a technique that you can teach easily to people.

There is a technique and everything comes with system. I’m very system based in the practice, I’m very system based in life. I try to be a system based as I can and consistency and habits. And I’ll always do a trial, smile the same way, but always start with the same surface. I’ve always put the same line angles in and it creates a consistent workflow and that is what we teach, because there’s no point me teaching someone something that they’re only going to be able to use if they’re super talented.

Run me through it. Run me through it. What do you do so well?

It would be based upon the small design that we’ve decided before.

So how do you how do you get that? Do you draw on an iPad thing?

Yeah. Is all of mine on the iPad? I don’t use any kind of softwares or anything at the moment because again, I’m still finding that template and teeth are what’s in the libraries on digital. It’s design, so you’re just swapping one issue for another issue. So until there’s some kind of I can’t imagine how it’s going to work until someone can be in my head and create the shape of that tooth that I’m thinking of using something digital, then I’m not even going to transition to digital wax. So I think is this is also equally compromised from what I want is starting a new starting point that isn’t it’s harder for me to rectify.

So interesting. I used to draw on the TV in a black marker pen. This is before iPads existed.

Well, I used to print them out. That was something wrong to me. Print out the photo and draw on it for the iPad.

Nice to draw than the TV. Yeah.

The drawing on the teeth is is perfect.

The TV. The TV. And then my nurse would wipe the TV.

But yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s how we did it. So based on the smart design but it’s always central.

So you just the dswd isn’t really part of your work then.

No.

Not even like in a marketing sense. It isn’t like you don’t think that’s exciting for the patient, that that’s not the business you’re in.

We definitely have it because what people need to know is that also, yes, I place the veneers, but that doesn’t mean every patient that sits in my chair gets veneers. That’s not I mean, that would have been the case, you know, immediate orthodontics and those sort of phrases. It’s out of the window. And if that’s not justifiable, I could not sit here and lecture and be a genuine person advocating minimally invasive, indirect work and teaching that if really behind the scenes, I was prepping everything to death. That is, I put nearly every case on social media that I treat and people see it all, so there isn’t really anywhere to hide. And that’s why we have a clinic where I have Corinne and Lydia, who are my associates, who are restorative associates, who’ve done the trainings. And I know that if I send them a case that is not right for veneers, that will be an Invisalign treatment or something like that, they’re going to treat it with the right occlusal principles because that’s what we all follow. And so they’ll do that kind of work for those patients if they’re not suitable.

I always think in what is a veneer case, what is a what is a composite case? There isn’t You can’t categorise patients into that. It’s they want. We have tools in our toolbox of which bananas are one, Invisalign is another, whitening is another, icon is another. There are so many things we have to then pick and choose and come up with a recipe to get that patient what they want by balancing what their budget, their expectations, what its expectations in terms of also can they handle that kind of work. Right? Because to go through a porcelain smile makeover, they need a lot of patients need a lot of management, either from me or the dentist, or maybe they’re not quite there emotionally for that kind of permanent change. So you have to kind of tailor it. So I don’t think there’s a one size fits all. We have so much available now should be using everything and there’ll be a mix and match is you need a team really nowadays you can’t be relying on a one trick pony. You cannot do dentistry now cosmetically well.

I mean, I notice you out there in in the magazines and you were recently on TV. I saw.

Yeah.

Is that like, if you got a PR company, What are you doing regarding that? I mean, okay, you’re the communication king.

I think it’s come to a stage now where we have to find ways of putting yourself out there. We have to find connections. I have to. I’ve been part of this within dentistry, within dentists, what I would call a porcelain revolution, where it fell out of favour for the right reasons. And now it’s come back into favour because for those reasons that went out of favour have hopefully been rectified nearly 100%. So we’re now talking about minimally invasive doing things. I need to be out there and I need to be talking about that because that I do a lot of cases right. And I feel that I’ve been through so much with my patients and learned so much about how these patients who want this treatment and go through this treatment think and feel through it. I should be out there and I should be talking about that, especially when we have things like dental tourism marketed to dentists in this country. I’m sorry that patients in this country I was on the tube yesterday. We went to South Bank with some friends.

Who thought he had.

So bad.

For painful.

I couldn’t believe it, you know, and that’s one of the things that I have to I feel responsible to get that out there because we have to educate people. I don’t want to see patients coming back and crying in our room with crowns in their hand and nothing left underneath when they had healthy teeth before. And it’s not the conversation about, Oh, I can’t afford an NHS dentist here and I have perio and I need all four and it’s £30,000 and over there it’s less. We’re talking about the young patients who have healthy teeth who are going out and getting treatments in various countries abroad. I mean, one country that we have to be very careful, apparently when we when we when we single out Turkey because we get a lot of backlash. But frankly, this is a country that advertises the most UK patients.

I mean, at the same time. Gallet Right.

And then and then exactly. I went on, I went on ITV and I, well, I said he asked me to comment on it because the VA said right. So they wanted, they wanted a comment from the academy and they came to film and, and then I put that up and I got a load of backlash on my social media about it from various people. Some people had been out to Turkey, some dentists who said, How dare you single out turkey? And firstly, this ITV’s report. I said one thing which was, I don’t believe in dental mutilation. That’s what I said and that’s what I think it is. You know, I’m not singling out anyone. But anyway, the point got bit missed. The point is, is that the patients who are going out there for the tourism are not going to see Ghalib or sell cocaine. They’re going out and seeing God knows who. And everyone is blaming us either for being too expensive or not accessible, or they’re blaming the patient for making a can’t believe someone would do that to themselves. They’re not doing it to themselves. Someone is doing that to them. Where is the attention on the people who are actually doing that, causing that mutilation to the public? Why is no one trying to stop them? That’s where it should be in my mind. And so someone did say, Oh, you can’t single out turkey. Yes, I learnt a hell of a lot from Girl. You know, so much of what I do every day is gallops principles. And the fact is that they’re not going there and I’m sure gallop And it would be great for me actually. I should reach out to him. What is going on out there? How do you feel about what’s happening there? What is it at your end? Maybe they didn’t hear about it as much as we do, because.

I hear I hear they’re just as annoyed about it as we are. I’m sure.

They are. Yeah. And I wish I would gladly say, Oh, I’m going to go. And Turkey, can you take me with you?

Yeah.

All right. But they’re not. This is the reality. It’s not that. And they’re more expensive than we are. Or if not the same.

I think, look, the real worry is there was a time where the man in the street, like the cab driver in the street, would say, I’m going to get my teeth done and I’m going to put crowns on all my teeth. And he’d be this 60 year old guy who mistakenly thought that was the right move. But at least he’d be a six year old guy.

Exactly.

Now we’re getting 21 year olds.

Yeah.

You know, and I think Qadhi said something on talk about you’re going to end up with dentures. You know everything she just said like that? Yeah, she said she essentially said, Look, you’re saying whatever you’re saying and you’re feeling whatever you’re feeling. But also consider that you’re likely to end up with dentures now because of this. And we are, as a profession, guilty of not getting that story out enough.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast. You get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

And don’t forget our six star rating.

For the full transcript and video of the Podcast see: https://www.prav.com/podcasts/doug-watt-dentist/

So how about you send it to us? We’ll come to your practice. We’ll do. We’ll do the end in the house. Patient as well. We’ll go anywhere. You send us the X-rays prior, and then we’ll send the patient back to you for the crown. And we’ll pay you a percentage of what we were collecting and, you know, fairly decent fee. And we were doing that. And I remember the first session finished at 1130 at night with the last patient. And then, you know, the the guy always a practice came. He goes, Oh guys, we’ve had a great day. And I said, Yeah, it’s a great day.

So what went wrong? What was wrong? What was wrong with that business?

Well, I’m not that honest. That’s what was wrong with it.

That’s what was wrong with it.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome Dr. Sandeep Sadhana onto the podcast. Known to me anyway as Sunny. Dr. Sunny To some people. Sunny I met first on Many Smile Makeover, and I even remember that course just because of Sunny. He’s got a way of holding the attention of a room. You know, it’s funny. I sometimes think it might even count against you. How how how much you can do that. You’re so good at holding the attention of a room that sometimes you think, well, this guy’s a performer, and then you’re talking about composites. And Sunny’s got a very interesting course the composites composite, the new matrix, the greater curve matrix, and wondering if sometimes people think, do they take you seriously or not? Because I remember when you started telling me about the course, I think, Oh, Sunny’s that funny guy. He’s that funny guy, you know? And then when when you started talking quite serious, is this for real? So, Sunny, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Hi, Payman. Thanks for having.

Me. It’s a massive pleasure. When was the first time where you thought in your life that I’ve got the gift of the gab? I can I can keep a room, you know, I can keep people completely enthralled in what I’m saying. Because every time I’ve been in a room with you, you’ve been centre of attention The first time when that happened.

And you’re making me think way back now. Right.

But really childish ones.

Ones Well, probably, but ones that stand out to me. I actually. I was a salesman in PC World for a while. Yeah. You know, I was, I was working from quite a young age before uni. Before uni. Yeah. Yeah. I actually got my first my first job was selling double glazing on the phone and I got I got promoted in two weeks to confirm, so. So I thought, yeah, there’s something good. And then yeah, the I just did a succession of jobs. My family are certainly big on, you know, go and work and some money and so yeah the PC world thing, I was a top salesman like two years in a row, just consistently being one of my friends. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I wasn’t really trying to sell or anything. I just like to talk to people. So that one kind of resonated then I think that kind of I think it all comes from I grew up in a shop similar to kind of business. Yes, I grew up in the shop, so I watched my two uncles be very, very social every day, day in and day out from six, 8 to 9:00 every day. And they never got hired. Right. So certainly rubbed off on me.

Where was the shop.

Was in Walthamstow, south east.

London. So you born and bred there?

Yeah, I was actually born in Hackney but grew up in Walthamstow and just always in and around the east London, Essex now.

And so. Okay, so you went out and worked and you know, we don’t realise the value of that. Like the same thing. Talking to the public before you first time talk to the public as dentist, you already had loads and loads of experience of that. Did you work in that shop as well?

Yeah, for sure. I mean that’s a child labour, right? That was.

Normal.

Me, me and all my cousins.

And then when, when was the first time that dentistry came on the scene as a, as a career prospect. How old were you. Do you remember.

I was probably quite young but again it was just a family thing. See, one of my uncles had this in my head, right, because they used to open the shop at 650 and shy at nine. He had the dream for me that I should get a nice 9 to 5.

So.

So that was what they they actually looked up to, right? I’m not sure a lot of people think a 9 to 5 is the jackpot anymore, but they certainly did. And yeah, typical typical Asian family might be be a doctor, be a lawyer, be it this better and then yeah, it just kind of fell into it. It was going to be one of those three things. And I couldn’t see myself through medicine, couldn’t see myself doing in law. So dentistry just became the thing. I landed in my my grades were good, so I applied for it and got in.

And where do you study Queen Mary? But how will you how will you, as a dental student, the class clown? That’s how I imagine you.

I’m not sure I was class clown. I did like a joke. I did like her. I mean, I do enjoy, but I do like I do like having fun. But I actually found I found uni quite tough. I find duty really quite, quite tough. I find it to be a little bit prison esque, you know, like, not especially dental school, you know, first year people are out going out, you know, and we’re doing those course assessments every six weeks. So that was that really hit home that this wasn’t going to be a jolly.

Yeah, Yeah, I know. I know what you mean, man. Because you get to uni thinking you’ve got like some some American college life sort of dream that you’ve seen in the cinema and in dentistry particularly is is quite hardcore course. So did you find that Was it, was it academically you weren’t happy or just taken out of your way like where, where you’d grown up and all of that sort of thing?

I’m not too sure. It was like the people there. There was some cool people if people got on with Ice Bowl or football. So that was, that was, that was fine. Five and I didn’t really mind the people so much. I think it was just that it was pretty, pretty structured. It wasn’t you weren’t that free, you know, It just took up a lot of lot of time. You spend a lot. And so I’m slutty. So I think I just. I think I’m a free bird at heart. Right.

Q Did you live out the whole time or did you live back at home at one point?

Both. I did. I did both.

So what did you the first year you live out?

First year lived that and then. And then I think off the second year. Then I moved back home, which they were both equally as hard, by the way.

Yeah. So don’t you feel like you missed out a bit on the uni experience by doing that?

Well, I reckon actually by the first or second year I was, I think I just made up my mind that I was just going to get through it and do the degree and get the education and that was it. It wasn’t. I was getting my sort of extracurricular stuff fulfilled elsewhere. The things actually stimulated me.

So go on.

Well, I mean, I was an Army reservist, so that really fulfilled me. I really enjoyed that. Always wanted to do it. And then uni was just logical. So I think I was more enthusiastic about that than I was actually the degree itself.

So it’s like, you know, they can’t be that many Indian boys in the Army Reserves.

Or I wrong. Am I wrong about that? There’s not lots. There’s not lots. But interestingly, there’s there’s a regiment G company now, actually it’s got loads of Asians. It’s like East Arnhem, I believe, somewhere around there. One of my family is actually in that regiment now. So yeah, he says there’s loads and apparently it’s the most diverse regiment in the, in the army. But mine was, was, was, was not that mixed but it wasn’t that big of a problem really.

What was the drive like. Why, why the army.

Well again my, my two uncles, they were cadets and they had really fond memories of that. And they were growing up in a difficult time. Right. They were they were in the east end of London, where they were the only two the only two Asian guys, full stop, you know, let alone having turban and beard. And they had really fond memories and said that it was a good experience. By and large, it made them who they were. And then there were other people. My family had done reserves as well. My my stepdad was in the reserves as well. So yeah, I was just kind of influenced by I was always pretty active. I was always pretty physical. And yeah, just it just attracted me. I just like the challenge.

So, you know, you’re one of the more engaged than this I come across. You’ve really engaged with with each part of dentistry. Were you that way throughout, or do you remember a time where you suddenly switched on to wanting to be the best at dentistry itself?

Well, I actually think I just did. My heart wasn’t totally in it during the degree. I just. I just did enough. I just I just wanted to do it right. And I think I was a little bit miserable in uni, actually. I think a lot of people that knew me at uni, you’ll probably say I was pretty miserable and but later on, you know, I did vet, vet was cool. I had a really fantastic trainer and that really rubbed off on me. And he was very giving and sharing and, you know, really proud of the things he used to do for his patients. That really rubbed off on me and I kind of followed suit. But then when I got into mixed practice, you know, the two positions I had after that, like predominantly nurse, I’d left the army at this point, obviously, and I, I’d always been part of a team and I just want to be part of a team. I’m quite a team player and it wasn’t like I was just in my room and everyone else was in their room and maybe I’d have a few hours at lunchtime. It was pretty, pretty boring. So I’d just go for a walk instead. And yeah, I was just lacking. I was just lacking that. Right? And then in 2016, a friend of mine from uni calls me up and says, I’ve started a private practice, I’ve got another chair, it’s a squat, there’s no patients you want to come down. And I just bit his arm off. I did it and then never looked back.

How many years after qualifying was that?

That was about six years.

So then are you saying that up to that point you weren’t really looking at improving? And then from that point on, you really started?

Well, I mean, I like improving in general, right? So at least I’m certainly sort of self-reflective. But at that point it was improving, meant doing more. So then my highest accolade was like, oh, did 8000 UDAS one year like. But as we all know, that’s hardly an accolade, right? But then when I got into that private practice and then there was very few patients, and then I really realised how many of those patients actually wanted to come back and see me and how much my work was actually standing the test of time. Yeah, I probably wasn’t as good as what I thought I was. Right When you’re doing Udas doesn’t make you good. So then that was a rude awakening for me. I just realised why I’m actually really rubbish. So then so it was a little but prior to me wanting to improve, I tried to just skip the whole dentistry thing completely. Right? So actually, comically, you know about this, But I actually tried to become a professional bitcoin trader.

Oh yeah, I do. Go on, tell the story, man.

Well, so, you know, I’m in this practice is private practice. First year is just staggeringly difficult not many patients and my that year the take home was just terrible, worse and way worse than just what I would earn on the NHS. But the year after that 2017, I learned about Bitcoin. I don’t know how I did and I just got curious, got interested in it, started playing around and started putting on trades. Some of them started working out, some of them didn’t, but I was learning in the progress in the process and then I just went really deep into that. Like when I get into something, I really get quite deep into it, right? So I just took a deep dive into it. And 2017, I made like a quarter of a million very quickly and I thought I was a genius. I thought I was ready to walk off or I could do this all day, sit on my computer, just do this, look at charts. I thought I could do it. And then the following year I lost it because I didn’t know I was doing right and. Brutal crash of 2018 happened. And then I realised that actually, you know, maybe I am a dentist after all.

And then I.

And then I just did so much CBD because it just hit me. I thought, you know what? I’ve worked so hard to get to this point. You know, I didn’t really want to disappoint my family in that regard as well. I’m typical Asian females and yeah, I did about, I think 200 hours of CBD in person in 18 months. I just really went really went hard. I feel I’m not just I’m not going to waste this opportunity. Right. Because I didn’t give it a good crack. So that’s when I really got serious about the industry.

It’s what did you, which courses did you do?

I did loads of the jaws. I did all of the Lundbeck courses. I did the Fusion, the rest of the ones I did. Endo I went to Egypt to place implants. I did many small makeup. I do money for science. I did was I’m trying to think what else was popular at the time. I was going to do small fast, but I backed out at the last minute. Yeah, I can’t remember, but I did a bunch of bunch of courses. I did loads.

So what stood out for you apart from ours? Obviously.

Well, all right. What stood.

Out? Yeah.

That’s a good question.

Look, if you if you if a young colleague came up to you and said, look, I want to immerse myself in CPD, what would your advice be?

What first hospital we had. First, we ask them what they good at, what do they think? What are they relatively strong at now? Because I don’t think you need to go and plug holes everywhere. Sometimes you can just double down. Look the things that you’re actually really quite good at.

Yeah.

So that’s probably a good starting point because what I did, I just did loads of CBD. I just went online. What can I book? You know, not not wanting to be a failure, but I’m not sure that’s the smartest way of going about it. You know, I’ve said this before, actually, I think it’s better to have a have a group of friends that you’re close with dentistry people, and you can all collaborate and say, Look, how was that? Cause what do you think? They’re a bit hive mind there. But group group intelligence probably get you get you further than just trying to just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Which is what I was doing.

So you wouldn’t have a device if the guy said, Right, I want to get better. I want to get into private dentistry. What would be your advice.

To do my course first?

Am I? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you what I did. Really? That made me good from being this rubbish. Or I say good, right? Just better than what I was. But what I did. So. So this didn’t really cost anything. I actually had a spreadsheet and I put every single complication I ever had in the spreadsheet, and every quarter I would review it and I’d even categorise them right? Whether it was like a restorative problem was in the problem. Was it a communication problem, Was it a pricing problem? You know, I even included that because actually sometimes we’re weak on the communication front. We think we’re going to say, you know, actually let us says this all the time. He says, you know, you think you’re going to save £500 and then three, 350 comes out your mouth. So that’s happened to me a good few times. So, you know, I had loads of those sort of pricing issues or where I hadn’t been clear with the price and whoever else. And that really made me better because then I realised I didn’t have that many, you know, the bigger problems I had were with crowns not fit in or in those failing or stuff like that or restorative. I wasn’t having loads of loads of problems, so I started to think like perhaps this is, this is a strength of one. And then I suppose that’s when I really said, yeah, many times carbon monoxide, severe bandages do all of those and went, Well, those are the ones I suppose I was more interested in, you know, those are the ones I was taking notes pretty seriously.

And then, you know, you go from being a course delegate to someone who’s got your own course now. And with I mean, I’ve got to hand it to you in the short time that you’ve been doing the drill course, you’ve made quite a lot of waves and you’ve made loads of content as well. I mean, I remember it for myself when I went from someone who used to go to courses, to someone who used to set up courses and organise courses. What surprised you the most about that?

About change in courses. All the.

Change? Yeah, we’re putting on courses. Yeah.

Well, I suppose it’s natural rights only have a little bit of imposter syndrome that now you are going to see these guys and learn from them and now you’re imparting knowledge on other people. Yeah, I don’t really feel that actually, because the for this particular course I think I’m the best man for to do this. I’m the best man to share this information. I’ve been using the system since 2018. The event the brand’s been mentoring me since 2020. I’m not an expert at dentistry, but I’m certainly an expert in this system. I started off using it so pretty, not really don’t really have the imposter syndrome regarding that. But I think sometimes, you know, people will ask, you know, they expect you to have all the answers to everything. Right. I I’ll tell you a really funny story. Actually, I the gentlemen reached out to me pretty well. Well, no then is nothing against me or anything. But he said to me that you didn’t want a lunch and learn with me because he had studied implants, prosperity, all this postgraduate stuff, and I hadn’t. And he thinks that people who are going to teach should have a complete understanding of all of dentistry before they could teach one subjects. And I just felt that that was like a bit of a like a gatekeeper ideology, you know, the gatekeepers to knowledge. I’m not saying I have any secret sauce, so to speak. I just I’m the best man in place to teach this particular program, right, because of my experience. And it’s the only thing I use and I can manage to solve most problems. And I’ve gone from NHS to solely private and now being a private associate to running an in-house referral service while I go to other people’s practices and do referrals in their in their place just for stories. So I’m not I’m not saying I’m the best dentist up far from it, but I can handle most problems now.

So no, but that surprised you, right? That surprised you? The guy didn’t want to be taught by someone who wasn’t. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It totally that surprised me because actually there are problems that I know, you know, we can solve really easily compared to any other method. And in fact, some methods are popular, like sectionals and stuff. There are certain situations. They just don’t work. So you can be in a sticky situation. But that gentleman just doesn’t want to know about it because I wasn’t as qualified as him. So that was. That was quite surprising. You know, I also found surprising. Yeah, I found surprising that dentists can be quite brutal. Then it’s like.

When they’re talking about it.

Actually sometimes just at these luncheon ends and stuff. Obviously not to your face. Everybody’s quite polite to you, but I mean, I’ve had it where some of these luncheon we filmed, you know, like we’ve had we just had a mobile phone filming. And then when I’ve watched them back, you know, like we’re just making content out of it. Whatever else, I can see slips, you know, perhaps I was too informal or something like that. But then I can see in the clip, like the guy cover his face and snigger. Oh, I could see it. You know, if I do a lunch and learn with a practice owner and his associates. And then I’m trying to make it slightly interactive and say, has anyone had this problem that nobody answers? And then I could just see him cover his mouth and snigger. That’s fine. I quite that was quite surprising, right? I thought, man, I’m just trying to share some stuff with you. And so that was a bit surprising, but I’m pretty used to it now. I’ve got quite a thick skin.

Yeah, look, I find I tell you, what I found difficult was I felt like I was quite good with patients. I could I could talk to patients, I could sell to patients quite well. And I felt in my zone when I was talking to patients. But at the beginning, when talking to dentists, you know, there’s an inherent trust in a patient sitting in the chair, dental chair. But with dentists, you know, there’s an inherent distrust. We trained to distrust, aren’t we?

Yeah, well, we’re analytical, right?

Yes. Part of our job, right? It’s part of our job. Right. Where is the evidence? Right. For whatever someone’s saying. And, you know, the sort of, like you say, the brutality of that response that you’re talking about, It’s it’s almost like the difference between b2c and B B2B B, and we’re talking business to business. People sort of feel like they’ve got the right, whereas they might not be like that about their dentist, you know, the guy who’s looking after them.

Sure, sure, sure, sure. You know, else is surprising, you know, when we do the in-person lunch, unless, you know, obviously we take food racks, we take some pizzas and stuff. I think it’s probably about two practices. I remember that actually said, thank you for the food. So I find that surprising.

Some people seem to say thank you for food for me. Maybe, maybe, maybe the piece I bought was terrible for.

The dietary requirements.

Wrong. Yeah. All right, so there’s that. But. But these are. These are luncheon loans, right? So these are. What are you doing? Are you sort of people people are showing an interest and then you’re saying, I’ll turn up at 1:00 and you and bring lunch. What about the courses themselves? Do you find it hard selling tickets to courses?

I don’t find it hard. I mean, at the beginning it was hard because nobody knew I was right. Nobody knew us. So imagine, like you’re your first cohort for a hands on program. Nobody knows what this is. They don’t know. They don’t know who I am. So why the hell should they give me money to show them something? To them, I’m a nobody. So, yeah, yeah, that was kind of tough. But then again, you know, you have the early movers, you have the early adopters or early people. Yeah, you have the early adopters who perhaps a little bit more open minded or they’ve personally seen the stuff I can do or they refer the case to me and see like, Well, how did you do that so easily when I couldn’t do it? And so those early adopters got on board and, and, you know, like I said, that first one was when I knew I was onto something because it was a slam dunk. Like they were all pretty happy. They were all Monday morning putting into use, sending it in the WhatsApp group. You know, it’s pretty unfulfilling to see people come on to something and then leave with skills that they can put into practice straight away. Right. It’s not like some fancy thing that they’re going to have to wait three or four weeks before they’re going to have a case and be able to be able to actually use it. This is bread and butter stuff all the way to to more tricky, tricky things.

So we might as well go through what is it, what is the greater curve matrix? What situations does it really come into its own? What are the downfalls of sectionals and the traditional matrices that this this manages to get over? And then and then I do want to talk about how did you come across it? Yeah. Yeah.

So what a great curve is. It’s been around since 2006. So in America is pretty well established. Obviously, they’re old school companies, so their socials aren’t like massively strong. But at the same time, I’ve learned that just because you’ve got a really good social following, that doesn’t mean your KPIs in the business are in sync with that. Right? Just loads of followers doesn’t mean loads of business. So they’ve got loads of business but not a lot of followers. So I’d rather have that problem then I’d rather have that situation then than the other. But yeah, they’ve been around for a long time. Dr. Brown actually came up with the idea in 96 and then just tinkered around with it for ten years before he was only using it for one situation. Classifiers You just wanted a better way of doing that. And then it evolved into being able to do class two and then class two, three, four, five and eight on it can do it, can do everything right. And he kind of ran like a bit of an impromptu clinical trial, so to speak. So like 96 to 2006, it was just his friends and people he was speaking to online on dental town and they were using it and really liking it and was getting really good feedback.

So it wasn’t just him. And yeah, there was so much demand that 2006, that’s when they became a proper company. So but so like I said, it can handle pretty much any of situation and where it really shines, you know, those really difficult sub jingles like I’ve had that before, where I’ve been super frustrated, I’ve done loads of restorative courses, all revolved, all revolving around sectionals. And then I have this ridiculously deep sub gingival and I just didn’t have a way of dealing with it, you know? And then I’m just hitting and hoping and hoping that it’s isolated and hoping that it’s bonded. And people say. Robert Yeah, of course. Fine, I get that. But the rubber dome can’t isolate a really substitutable right. So it really stands out in those situations. You know I have I’ve got this case, this gentleman comes to see me and he had been told he needed a lower partial clearance. And the dentist said, go and see Sonny. And if he can do something, maybe you can keep it safe. So he comes to see me. And by the time I’d excavated all of caries, obviously warning him that this might may not be possible.

And he had been applying for two implants and a breach for eight and a half. K And then I cleaned up all the caries for my client when I was a lower level for all the way to lower three and the caries was sub Gingival Class five, Class three. You know, he’s just an absolute mess. And, you know, three and a half hours later he had restored teeth and he, you know, happy to pay four in half thousand for that in that time. So it’s not just a way of solving problems. It’s quite a profitable way of treating problems, too. We can quickly place restorations are well bonded and, you know, it’s a bit contentious, but if you use rubber down, great, you’ll enhance your isolation. But if you don’t use rubber down, it also isolates at the matrix level. So we’re using a a 38 micron sheet of stainless steel or brass to hug around the tooth and not let anything in, whereas somebody else might want to use a sheet of rubber. Right. So it’s pretty damn flexible as well for your, your particular perspective I suppose, on how you approach.

Them and what is it? What is it about it that makes it better for such gingivalis? Is it literally the curve of the band that goes down a bit deeper? Is that what it is?

Yeah, well, in a nutshell it’s they’re basically curved bands, right, with this modified top of my retainer. Like that’s its core level. But what makes it super special is like, you don’t even need to use wedges if you don’t want to. Like, you don’t have to force the tip apart. So it’s a restorative framework as well, like it’s techniques that brands sort of refined over this period, right? So it’s almost coming up to four years almost, Right? So in that time, you just got a real solid way of approaching any situation. Right? And whoever you’re doing, all units, single unit quadrant, it doesn’t really matter. Just anything anywhere, you know and it’s a little bit efficient to like if you’ve got like an mod and a bottle, we can do it all in one go, right? Because it’s a curved circumferential, so to speak. And yeah, it’s just really easy to use.

Could you come across it.

Yeah. Well after I was, you know, got tired of crying myself to sleep after losing that money, the money side I had, you know, I reflexively kept going on the computer because that’s what I’ve been used to doing. And then I just started I started doing these courses, as I mentioned, but they were all teaching sectionals and that was fine. But like, I just couldn’t get them to work as well. Like, I didn’t really love them. I just something about them just didn’t resonate with me. I just found it really complicated. I thought there must be a simpler way and even like closing black triangles and stuff and using various strips, I just didn’t find that too simple. I was just like, I’ve got one hand tied up, blah, blah, blah. So I went on Dental town as well and I just came across a curve and there was like so many posts, so many cases then just, just loving it. And I just got my hands on it, started using it. But yeah, I was doing all right. But there were still situations that I didn’t really fully understand how to use it, and they’ve got loads of videos online. But again, sometimes it just wasn’t watching the video and having someone explain it to two different things. So in 2020 I heard Dr. Brown on a podcast and he just really down to earth old boy, probably doesn’t care about impressing people anymore and just openly said, Look, I do most of my sort of dentistry what I’ve done.

And that’s like, nobody says that. And even Howard frown on that show goes, you know, a 30 year old dentist would never say that because even if he did, he would never say it because of obviously the the community view overall. So I was listening to him. He’s just very frank. He just talk about how, you know, sometimes get rubbish contact areas. Such tangibles were difficult. No real predictable way of doing class. Five’s just really went into just everything I was thinking and feeling. So I actually emailed him and just reached out to him and just said, Look awful, well done for saying all that stuff. Super impressed, Love your system that are there. And then he said, Look, let’s do a zoom. So I did a zoom slide show in cases and then he said, Oh, you know what you got to do there is turn the retainer this way and then you’ll get more flair. And that’s what I was. Oh, so I’d write that down. And then every time I’d be doing these Zoom call sharing cases, I’d be writing all these notes, and then I’d have pages and pages of notes about his framework. And yeah, that’s, that’s how I saw the mentorship with him, so to speak, which is still going on, which is cool.

And so did he not have a representative in the UK at the time?

No, they were selling direct. But then obviously selling rights is problematic because there’s you can get import import charges. Obviously, it’s got to come from America and then it’s the last minute. Sometimes they just want to order something today and get it tomorrow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, you know, the whole process of becoming their distributor, minimum order quantities. Am I ever going to be able to sell the stuff that I buy That must have all been new to you, right?

Yeah, for sure. 100%. 100%. And, you know, I had had friends who who are involved in distributing products, Dental products into the UK as well. So I, you know, I pick their brains often and then, you know, they were really quite helpful about it and kind of approached that beginning, that beginning sort of stuff, trying to understand it with them. But then it’s a steep learning curve. You’ve got to learn. You’ve got to learn, right? If this is what I want to do, you know, I had faith in the product. I had faith in the system. I had faith in the framework. You know, I said to Dr. Brown on a call last year, at some point I said to him, look, man, you know, we’ve got teachers. I want to teach this. And he said, Yeah, I always teach it. And I was like, Wow. So from that point, I knew, right, this what I’m going to do now, just share this with as many dentists as possible, because there were a lot of people that aren’t doing really well on the restorations and they’re just living with that subpar restorations, but they don’t ask to do it, and sometimes they haven’t got a place that they can go and ask for help because if they go to their principal, say, I can’t do a class five, you know, it’s not very becoming, is it? So yeah, it’s not like and if you go online as well, if you go on these Facebook groups and just present like a really, really fundamental problem, I’m not sure people are that helpful when I use a rubber. Damn it is do that. Do this. You know, there are other people that just want a different way. Like they just want a simple framework that works every time.

Well, I noticed Greater Curve is coming up as the answer to some of these questions these days. And I know how hard it is to even get the name of your product recognised. It takes years sometimes unless you do, you know, there’s there’s different ways of of getting the word out there. I notice you using to sort of getting yourself involved in all the different groups and all of that. But I remember when we started maybe the first seven, eight years, the most common thing I would hear from people is I’ve never heard of you. And it took seven, eight years before someone would say, Oh, yeah, we know. And I remember, you know, we’ve always overspent on marketing, you know, compared to how much we were making. And I remember thinking, you know, there I am a receipt, my whole mortgage, my, my family. But by buying these extra ads and then the Dental magazines, and yet everyone I meet says they’ve never heard of us. And it can be soul destroying. It can be soul destroying. So I think you’ve done quite well. I mean, how many years this has been? Even two years? Yes, one year.

Not me. Not even. Not even a year.

Now you’ve done well. You’ve done well. I mean, maybe I’m paying more attention because you’re my buddy. But in a year, you’ve done well to get it out there and. And people bring it up in comments.

Yeah, Appreciate. I appreciate it. I’d say 40 marks, by the way. So 14 months to be super accurate.

It’s tough. But I mean, look, there’s there’s different ways of marketing, right? You can you can go down this sort of content approach, a kind of you’ve gone that way. You’ve got some some videos and all that you can you can do gimmicks in has been a master of that right You can you know whatever you think about dressing up at a trade show you know he accelerated accelerated how quickly people knew about his product by doing that. And then you can buy ads. You can become become a teacher. But either way, today, there’s so many different things. And you know, what I’ve noticed about your product is the people who use it kind of evangelistic about it. You know, they they’re happy about the fact that they’re using it. And you’re right in that sometimes the sort of sexy side of dentistry is what everyone wants to talk about. And yet the day to day today, a dentist would have done a sub gingival class teeth that would have really gotten in his, you know, on his nerves. Tomorrow, tomorrow there’ll be another one. And the next day there’ll be another three. You know, anything that can make the day today a bit more, a bit more predictable needs to be talked about. Right.

For sure. So I mean when I gave, I gave a talk at the Scottish dental show and it was called How to Reduce Your Blood Pressure. Blood pressure as a profession.

It was, yeah. Yeah.

Because it really does, right. So now like those, you know, you’ve just, you’re able to just put that part, that problem that you’re having, just put it to bed like you’ve just got this predictable way of approaching it. It’s just done. I don’t have to worry about those things. Right. So that’s supremely freeing. It frees up bandwidth to say, I want to spend more time on X or I want to, you know, just I just I’ve said it before. I’ll say it again. You know, you can you can you can do anything. You can’t do everything. So you can’t worry about every, every single problem. Right. So try and get as many of those things on automation or systematise as possible. Right. So obviously our business is very small. It’s a start-up, it’s a lean start-up, you know, a small team, lots of automations, lots of systems, lots of processes, lots of things so that I don’t have to think about. And they’re being built every week. So dentistry I think is much the same way, you know, how can I systematise things? How can I make my day to day workflow super predictable? You know, we had we had a delegate on the May one, one of the earlier doctors and he said, Look, I’m challenging you. I don’t think this is going to touch back here and I don’t think this is going to touch Garrison. That’s what he said to me when he walked on. Can you imagine? So no pressure. And then that same delegate, he came back his second time on the course that we’ve just run. And he said to the other delegates while they were talking, he said, Yeah, it’s the only thing I use now, you know, and it’s easy. I love it. And I’m I’m charging 40% more for everything I do because I’m confident enough to do that. I mean, that was powerful stuff. I mean, not really. That’s really quite fulfilling to hear.

For sure. For sure. And then you get the question of where is it going to go from here? What I mean, I know we’re very early days, but have you decided that you’re not going to open a dental practice and you’re going to follow this as you become a more supplier and educator than a dentist? Or have you not made that decision yet?

Not definitely made my mind up already. That’s where it’s going.

Really? Yeah. It’s a bit of a shame, man. Deliver shame. You love teeth, man.

Well, I still practice what I was doing.

Today, but that’s my question. That’s my question. Is the practice side going to go down? You’re going to do less dentistry?

Well, I only do two sessions a week anyway. So.

Two sessions, is it?

Yeah, two sessions a week I do now. And like I said, they have referrals, so they’re always pretty challenging. Pretty interesting, little bit spicy. So yeah, I mean, that’s not going to change. I’m going to continue to do those work and just do this for the rest of the time. I mean, I live and breathe this now.

So the two sessions means basically one day a week.

Yeah, like 4 to 6 hours every time I go, you know, I don’t really do more than nine. I go.

Yeah, So I did that. I did that for a long time. I found it very difficult, though. I found that I didn’t I didn’t get into the rhythm of dentistry. I don’t really care if the nurse did something wrong or if the lupus, the battery of the lupus wasn’t working. You know what I mean? Because it was just one day a week. So I felt like I wasn’t engaged. Now, maybe you all do, because your job is the same as your you know, you need the cases or whatever. It’s for your lectures. But I found it. Not enough. I found two days a week better, three days a week, kind of a bit too much. If you’ve got another project.

I think this is just. This is probably like my sweet spot. You know, I could probably do another session and, you know, not detract from things. But I think, you know, there’s one place, again, they send me referrals, I’ll go there twice a month, you know, and it’s always quite a good day. That’s a full day, but that’s twice a month. So and that’s just my staple stuff. But in terms of like what you said, not getting into the swing of things again, I just got systems around that right? So I’ve got someone that will charge my battery and make sure my like you’re charged and tested and all of that stuff’s pretty on autopilot, which is really nice. And that’s something I’ve had to learn this year a lot because, you know, I’ll just get on with things, you know, whatever needs to get done, I’ll just do it. But I can’t do everything right so I can do anything but not everything. So being able.

To.

Get people on board to help, you know, that’s that’s, that’s something I really picked up this year, you know, and that’s helped a lot.

What do you mean? Employees?

Yeah.

How many people you go?

I was think about this number this morning, right? Because some are like just ad hoc in a sense, you know, So like when we run a course, I’ll have one of my assistants come and he always does it. He he always helps run the course. So he’s one guy in total. I mean, we’ve even got that same Jen I was talking about, the one who’s charging 40% more. You know, he’s helping out on the courses now, what have you for him to become a trainer to because you just got the framework down. So I’d say seven in total.

I remember when we got our first employee, it was a good six months in. And it’s funny man, because some people think of hiring. As a natural move and other people don’t. And I wasn’t I wasn’t that cat. We think I need to hire someone. But then the further you get into it, the more you just understand that that’s the right thing to do. Sure. And then as the numbers increased, the management headaches increased, too, Right? You get you get let’s say you get a team of five. They need their own little boss now. They need their own little leader. And, you know, it’s interesting. It’s interesting that the way the way these things evolve, you must have hit some crises in this period. Tell me about some of those dark times of business.

I certainly will. But just quickly, just on point of what you just said as well, you said about the team stuff. Something I’m a big, big fan of. Right. Is like horizontal structures rather than just traditional hierarchical ones where everyone needs to come and report to you and say, I’m doing this. I’m doing that. Yeah. Now I’m a big fan of getting people who are internally motivated. You know, they see division as as I do. And, you know, they’re all on the same page and I don’t need to nudge them. They’re nudging me, you know, 7:00 in the morning. And I wake up and my phone’s got like six messages. Can you do this? You do this, you do this. And 11:00 at night, it’s the same thing. So, you know, I really try and stick with people who are internally motivated, not just not just skilled. And people have got integrity as well. But yeah, that’s how I’m kind of getting around this stage. But yeah, go on the dark. The dark moments. Yeah, the dark times, Yeah. In this venture or just in general, because I’ve had some other dark times.

This is not the first business. I’m happy to hear both.

Well, you know, this is not my first hand at business, you know? So when I was doing the whole NHS dentistry stuff, like, I was pretty damn depressed, you know, like I was heavily drinking on the weekends, just drowning my sorrows. And that was no way to live, you know, like I dreaded Mondays. I just, you know, still be, you know, still not be feeling great for the weekend and then it’d be a drag and it gets fired and I just want to go out and just became this little party boy and it was very vapid, you know, It’s very, very superficial. That’s pretty dark, actually, because I was like very little meaning to anything I was doing at that point. You know, drinking, driving a flash car made me something special, but definitely didn’t. So that was that was actually a dark, dark time. And then only when I really took a took got serious about my life and I was funny, I really got serious. I was like, No, I’m not going to do this. You know, I’m really going to give life could go start digesting any any. I was just reading loads, listening to loads of podcasts.

I was listening to Macro Voices, which is a podcast about oil and gold. You know, I just like really go deep dive into everything and anything, just trying to develop as a person, you know, realise that maybe some of the problems in my life were not others and maybe they were mine to do with me. And then I tried to, you know, try to apply a practice that fell through because of COVID and thankfully so that I think my heart would have been in it. Try to run a facial aesthetics business for a while and teach in running courses on that. But the model was just completely flawed. So yeah, the courses would be good, but you know, I could get people to do techniques, but the financial model was just rubbish and there was no longevity to it. And just like for like everybody else was running their courses, we were pretty much the same thing by a few differences. So no USP there as well, ran a private referral and those areas that didn’t really work out, the numbers didn’t stack, you know.

Just lots of lots.

Of lot taking, lots of swings, you know. But that’s all quite depressing when things don’t go your way.

Well, yeah, of course. But just tell me about the private referral lender. What, refer to you. Yeah. Yeah.

So I wasn’t bad at it though. I was actually alright and I. And then I got a really good rest though. So it was okay. Yeah. Then. Yeah. So this, this practice in Essex, they would somehow propose this to them saying look you’re sending your referrals out and you’re not getting any remuneration for it so how about you send it to us, we’ll come to your practice, we’ll do, we’ll do the in-house patient as well, We’ll go anywhere. You send us the X prior and then we’ll send the patient back to you for the crown and we’ll pay you a percentage of what we were collecting and, you know, fairly decent fee and we were doing that. And I remember the first session finished at 1130 at night with the last patient. And then, you know, the the guy always a practice came. He goes, Oh guys, we’ve had a great day. And we said, Yeah, it’s a great day.

So what went wrong? What was wrong? What was wrong with that business?

Well, I’m not that honest. That’s what was wrong with it. That’s what was wrong with it. So yeah, that’s what was wrong with it. You know, I was not playing to my strengths. My strengths are anything completely related, you know, presenting treatment plans, presenting large treatment plans. Even if I do these referrals for practice, not only will I treatment plan what I need, but if they need like indirect work or bridges or implants, I’ll treat them, plan that and I’ll give that to the practice too. And patients pretty much take it on board. So certainly articulating my ideas was a strength and certainly doing restorative stuff as my strength and I’m quite creative person, right? So this whole project is quite cool because I get to get to express that creative side a little bit more than I would do as an associate.

But you must come across this problem all the time. Yeah, that a referral to you is something that dentists kind of feel like they can handle themselves. So why would they refer to you? How do you explain it to them?

Well, there’s loads of dentists like that. There’s a practice that refers to me and, you know, the four associates.

They’re.

Three do and one doesn’t, because he just thinks. I can do it once. That’s normal. This part is par for the course. But what they do for me is the things that they can’t do. Right? So not only do I.

Do it like. Like what? They just.

Just like, ridiculously general stuff. Like, typically, like I get a lot of that, you know, amalgam overhangs that have destroyed the other tooth as well or say like a like a tooth and an amalgam and then one of the cusps break off and then the, the amalgam just in and there’s just one more remaining and the patient doesn’t want to do, you know, post or crown and the dentist isn’t confident that is going to work and they’ll send that to me for like a direct composite crown, which is one of the things that we touch on in the course. But we’ve got we’ve got that plan actually, how we do that with no post, no ribbon, just a direct composite call. I actually got the the initial time, the first time I ever saw that was severe. Balaji He was showing that at Lundbeck. Right. And that really just caught something, you know, it just triggered something in my brain that he showed me these big, long recalls of these teeth that have been restored with no post, none of the stuff that we’ve been taught that we need to do, you know, And they were working. And he’s got like 20 year recalls when composite wasn’t even that good, you know.

So it certainly works. But then I just adapted it using great curve and now like a bit of a technique, just using it. And I mean, they work, right, And they work in situations where the alternative is thinking. And I actually advocate you should charge the same as an indirect prime for that because it takes 9 minutes. Meticulous work, you know, it takes a bit it takes time and effort to get nice contact areas and all the rest of it in the mouth. But it’s a viable treatment for a lot of patients and not just because of the price point. I don’t think we should see sometimes if you have a treatment that costs X and then you have a treatment cost, why, You know, we’re humans, we got biases, right? You lean towards one that pays more per hour, right? So I just whatever I do pretty much pays the same power. So I don’t really have that conflict. I just for whatever the treatment is, it would be right for the patient. They can pick it and I still get paid the same. I maintain that rate meticulously.

Okay, So take me through other other. You mentioned the drinking. Yeah. Do you remember a moment thinking this is like getting out of hand?

Yeah, probably quite a few. Probably quite a few. There’s probably quite a few, actually, I reckon. Well, I’ll tell you one that stands out to me straight away and obviously I was not drinking at the time when this happened, but certainly, you know when you’re, when you’re in a, when you’re in a I suppose. Yeah. You in that mindset. I was in that place Right. So at this at it’s mixed practice. You know one of the principles he was he was from the Middle East, he was serious. You know, he was a he was a very, very macho, you know, liked, very hierarchical and all the rest of it. Right. So if he says something, you need to go running type of deal. That was your style. And everybody used to be quite scared. And I remember like joining the practice and people say, oh, no, he’s calling. He’s calling. I said, What you mean he’s calling? Slow down. What’s wrong? No, no, no, no. You just have to go. And then so anyway, long story. Lunchtime. I’m having my I’m eating my food. And then one the nurses comes up and says, Are principals calling you? I said, I’ll just let him know, I’ll finish my food and I’ll come straight down.

And he did not like that. So he comes up the stairs stomping big, big dude, you know, boom, boom, boom. But up the stairs, you, when I tell you, come, you come down all this year and he’s spitting into my food and everything. And I was just just biting my tongue and I just went in the mood for it. And then he just he just kept piping up and saying, You have to call me a little girl. He said, You’re a little girl. And then that’s when I kicked off and I stood up and just, you know, profanities got exchanged, told me to leave. So I did. You know, I’m not going to take that rubbish, but obviously I’m level headed now. I certainly wouldn’t have wouldn’t have swore back at him. I walked out. But at that time, yeah, it was just, you know, you just don’t have the patience. You just I just didn’t have the patience and it’s just was not it was not a smart move. It was not a smart move. But things like that could happen, right? You make just stupid decisions. Well, you think you know, you think Bitcoin is going to save your life.

You know, I’ve been there. I think. Look, I go to quite a lot of mixed practices. Yeah. And I kind of almost see burnout on people’s faces sometimes. Not just dentists, you know, that the whole team. There are some practices where I guess it’s to do with patient numbers. Where it’s properly tiring working in that practice now. It’s such a long time since I’ve been in that situation. I think. I don’t think I’ve ever been in that situation to say the truth, because I did vet and then vet. It’s never the pressure’s never proper. And then after that was in private practice. So I never worked in a place where it was volume and speed. And these days, angry patients to boot know almost, almost. It’s the worst of all worlds. Right? You’ve got, you’ve got the the pay side of it, which is poor, but then you’ve got on the other side the expectation side, which is sometimes just as high as a private patient or even more like, you know, people what they’re entitled to and what a greedy dentist you are. And I see it. I see I see a lot more of just dejected faces in practices. What do you think about this sort of mental health sort of thing? Know now? Now people are talking about it a lot more. Yeah. Do you think these days there’s more stress on a dentist than before or not?

Yeah, I think so. Obviously. So it’s hard, right? It’s not getting any easier. It’s certainly not getting any easier. And what I found terribly stressful was being in a mixed practice and saying, you know, I can do this for you in the NHS and I can do this for you on private like that. There’s just.

Like there’s a.

Massive disconnect. Yeah, that’s just, that’s stressful. And then, you know, if you haven’t got like really strong communicators already and then now they’ll be like, oh, you know, the patient just hounds them. Like, why can’t you do that? And then they just end up doing a composite for free. Udas Or something? No, like I can easily see how all of that just how many, how many fires can they put out, Right? So you’ve got the clinical needs, then you’ve got the sub after lunch that you’re not looking forward to, you know, then you’ve got a private patient booked in for composite bonding. The last time you did it, it was like six weeks ago. If you’re not doing something weekly, how good are you really going to be? Be I mean, I used to struggle with at doing NHS dentistry all the time, and then somebody comes in and they want to do.

The odd private thing here and there.

And I weren’t doing it enough to actually be proficient in it. Right. So that’s pretty damn stressful. Yeah, I think it is. It is a stressful environment and one of the main reasons I kind of left why I just had to be bold, You know, sometimes you have to be bold and do what’s right for you.

And the whole note keeping side. I don’t know if you saw the the was it Grant? I don’t know who it was. Someone posted like, here’s some notes from 15 years ago and here’s the same thing now what he showed the notes 15 years ago. I was like, Yeah, that’s what I write, you know? Yes. Because I haven’t been in the game for such a long time. It’s been like, Oh no, it’s been 11 years or something since I was a dentist. Yeah, but sure. What’s the story? What’s, what’s the, what’s the note taking side in those heavy full on NHS practices. Do people just copy and paste and do their best, Right.

Yeah. I mean it’s a little while ago for me now, Right. But yeah, I certainly just copy and pasted and did the best way. But you know, I didn’t rely on the notes. I never did. I always relied on, you know, at least having some, some little chit chat with the patient prior. Right. Just people people come in there defensive. They don’t like you anyway. You’re going to put needles in their mouth. Who likes that? Doesn’t matter how nice you are. Doesn’t matter how good looking you are. And nothing’s going to really combat that. Right. And especially someone who’s scared about it. But if you can actually listen to them, really listen to their needs. Yeah. And you know, you know, you’ve listened to them, right? There’s a lot of people that don’t listen to, you know, sit down, open your mouth. Like if who wants to do that? Right? So even though it’s NHS and it’s low, low pain, I always took the time to and I still do obviously, but I always sit aside to really try and speak to them about something, find out what they were interested in. Just, just, just be a human man, you know? I know that’s cliche, right? But just be a bit of a human. And I always banked on that, you know, them not wanting to take things further or make complaints. Obviously, it’s not foolproof, you know, but certainly I’m a fan of probabilities. And I just thought my probabilities of having problems were going to be far lower so long as I respected that person, you know, and not make snap judgements. Now, I think that that really robs us of the opportunities where we make snap judgements.

Well, I mean, it’s a good point, right? It’s a good point to to I mean, people stress about the legal side so much, understandably. And it’s a good point to say, look, I’m going to I’m going to have just a good relationship, a better relationship with my patients than most, and rely on that to be the thing that keeps me out of trouble for sure. It’s an interesting way of looking it, right, Because you know who who has got a set of notes which are 100%, you know, and it’s so interesting because I speak to friends who’ve been through some GDC problems and they’ll say, Yeah, I was 100% sure about those sets of notes about that patient. And I think it just took just to make that happen. You’re having to write paragraphs and paragraphs, right? It’s become a difficult world. It’s become a difficult world.

It is indeed, isn’t it? And I think patients, you know, to to to win a patient over now, you know, it takes a lot more to write. So I mean you just see it with the with the Internet, right. You know, look at how people present their their stuff. Now, no longer can you just have a good product or a good offering. It needs to have the bells and whistles and it needs to have a book accord with me. And all this is it’s the world is not slowing down. It’s not slowing down.

Tell me about clinical mistakes.

Clinical mistakes. I’ll tell you about one. This one I remember. Right. So it was a year off the vet. I remember this fondly. This lady was getting married in a few weeks and she hated her front tooth. And she said, Can you do a bridge for me? She’s. She had a mishap, Something like that. Something. I remember doing the bridge, right? I did this bridge for her and she needed an end of. I thought a.

Wedding. Yeah.

But I shouldn’t have done it. I shouldn’t have done it. But, you know, pulling the heartstrings a little bit and I did it. And I think I did it for 12 years.

So.

So she did that at the end of through the through the crown. I wasn’t very good at end at this point. Anyway, long story. I think it was in 2015, the British snaps, but I wasn’t at this practice anymore and they didn’t really deal with it so well. And I don’t even think I found out about about the situation to kind of like remedy it. And anyway, it went, it went back and forth with her going to practice. It didn’t really go anywhere. And in 2019, I get a letter from a lawyer, you know, saying this this is this is the issue. So that was that was a sour one and one that I only realised a lot later. Right. So not all of our learning is immediate, right? We don’t have this like immediate feedback. Sometimes things are really late, you know, you learn about yourselves yourself as well. Things that you’ve done, you don’t learn about yourself until five years later when you see the repercussions. I mean, that happened to me quite a bit. So that was that was one that stood out. And then funny enough, when I went to the practice to go get my notes right, because I just thought it’s just going to be a headache to send in emails and all the rest of it.

I just went down there. So look, this place has got a problem. Can I have the stuff? And then one of the staff there said to me, Look, this other lady came in this week as well. I think you might want to look at her notes. So I did. And it was just luckily that I did. And she had an endo that had at the end. That was why I did the end. I was okay, but it had an infection. But the patient did want antibiotics. And the other thing is they didn’t want to touch it and all the rest of it. You just so I just got in touch with her and just said to her, Look, whatever you want to do, I’ll pay for it. And so that’s kind of the difference between when you know about a problem, When you don’t know about a problem, at least you can address it, right? And you can stop it from going from going quite far. Right. And I’d happily give a little bit of money back, considering we’re not we’re not poor. It’s not for professional. Mike.

Did you never have like an Oh, shit moment? I have. I had the no shit moment. Sure. We’ve all had them, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I must have. I lose. I should open my spreadsheet and look.

Of course. Yeah. Have you, have you never broken a tube porosity. I have, I have indeed I have indeed. That was a no shit moment for me.

Moment for me as well. That was definitely an ownership and it was an shit moment because it came up with the tooth.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then there was, there was tissue hanging off the back and luckily I’d done an oral surgery job, so I kind of thought, Oh, I can stitch this up. But it was far more complicated than I thought it was going to be. And then It’s funny, isn’t it? Then from then on, every, every seven or upright upright seems to be such a such a joy. Yeah. Suddenly you realise it’s that sort of not knowing what you don’t know sort of thing isn’t it.

Exactly. Exactly. And then you get PTSD.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what’s yours. Go on up any, any more anymore. This is my favourite part of the show because you can tell I.

Trying to think. I think.

I think, I.

Think I remember. Oh I remember one. I remember this lady. She was, I was replacing her upper central crown like a hero. You know, only a hero would do that. And she wanted it to look better and all the rest of it. And when I went to cement it, the core broke the cover. So I tried to repair the core and then cement the crown.

On that visit. Yeah. Yeah.

And schoolboy error. Yeah.

I know.

And this patient was watching everything I was doing in the the light, the reflection.

Of the mirror. Oh, yeah.

And when I did it, when I sat her up I said that as I stand she said to me she goes, you haven’t done that properly. I say well she goes, yeah I saw it. Break was like, Oh shit. So that was an absolute moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then she came back with her boyfriend and he started kicking off. Then I had to call the principal and then he said, Look, you know, sometimes these things happen. That’s what we do. But she wanted my blood. She wanted my blood. And you know what the funniest thing was? She let me do it. It’s not like she said, Oh, look, it’s broke. What are you doing? She just let me do it.

I know when you’re a patient, I can understand you. So just. Just watching. So what happened? What happened?

I see you think it didn’t go too far for you? Just refunded refunded treatments. You just wanted the money back and a free night. So that was that. But I’m trying to think, man, I’m trying to think.

End of story. That was the end of story.

I mean, that was in the story.

I’m sorry to sound disappointed you.

Would you want hear the whole legacy, the whole saga? I’m trying to think of one now.

I mean, you know, it’s a case of something people can learn from, really.

Something that people can learn from. Looking like a very poor teacher right now.

Have you lost, lost, lost, lost the confidence of a patient. And I guess that one.

Well, this ain’t our shit moment. But you’re talking about losing confidence. Yeah, I’ll tell you this one. So when I first started private, you know, one of the. You know, at this time, I’m only getting a handful of patients. So I say every one counts. And this guy I came in was Australian and he had a full show, and I still had like, my nice hat on the football jokes and all of that. So he walks in, it takes his jacket off, I see the football shirt and I go, Oh mate, I said, There’s the exit. And I pointed to it and he just looked at me like, What are you saying to me? Who are you? You know, he just looked horrified.

And I was he didn’t understand, but he just.

Thought I was I don’t know what he thought he was. I was just telling him to get out. I just brought him into the surgery and then I told him to get out. You know, it was just a massive miscommunication. But, you know, you just you’re fighting now to save the interaction, the how, the very supplicating money. You know, like, you know, this is what you can do and really trying to pander to this man. And he was not having it had the whole appointment. You know, it wasn’t happy. He complained about it, still wanting my treatment plan, had emails back and forth. But yeah, I really put my foot in my mouth with that one.

And that’s just just talk me through it. You’re an Arsenal fan and he walks in with a Spurs shirt or something. One of those sort of things.

Yeah, one of those, Yeah. So.

Yeah, it was so funny. It was. It was. It was just.

Something and all I thought it was it’s just a little bit of a poor banter, but yeah, just a bit of it. Yeah. This guy did not like banter and all the rest of it, but yeah, I mean, you learn, you learn from those words.

So now the thing is, dude, I said I introduced you by saying you’re a master at holding the attention of people. Yeah. So, you know, obviously most of the time this sort of thing doesn’t happen to you. You’re quite the opposite. You’re building amazing relationships with people. And I’m even thinking back to that day when you popped into our studio shoot, the whole there was 15 of us just surrounding you, listening to your stories, right? So maybe, maybe that’s why you’re having trouble remembering these, because you’re generally quite good at this sort of thing.

Maybe. Maybe, you know, who knows? Did you get talking Bitcoin?

Did you invest after the lockdown that after after COVID, that that little one? Or did you not wear that like given up well?

Well, this is it, right? Ptsd is a very real thing, you know, and I’m sure it applies to loads of things, but you are just kind of traumatised by like, Oh, like what the hell? Right. So imagine I actually I actually puked everything. I sold everything at three K, Right. And for people who don’t know, Bitcoin went to 69 K you know, not too long after that. And I only really switched my bias like after 20 K, But then at that point, you know, a lot of, a lot of the meat of the move that kind of happened right so like from three to to 60 is like 20 X right from from from 20 to 60 to three X. So I mean it shouldn’t be greedy. Three X is still amazing. But yeah, I mean now I just now I just keep it safe. I just automatically buy every month, you know, it’s just like an investment dollar cost average every month. And if prices look really juicy, really good, then, then I’ll just put a whole chunk in. But yeah, I don’t really talk about it too much anymore because I remember when when Bitcoin went to 69 K, it felt really toppy to me.

You know, I’d seen this show a good few times and had little group of my mates and that and, and some of these guys are making really good money in this cycle. Like they made ridiculous money. I said, you know, it just takes them off the table, you know, just lock in some of those gains. Right. And nobody listens to me. And I had a sound thesis. I said, look, it’s tried to break out all time high twice. It’s trying to go up there twice. This is the third time, probabilities wise, it’s very unlikely to fail. The third time I’m going to punt it. I did. It failed. I got out, I sold everything, and then I just watched a shit show after that. So I’m just only slightly blind recently. Really just started really nice getting some nice chunks again. But yeah, we’ll see. I’ll come back on this show in a couple of years if I am not doing dentistry or anything anymore.

I mean, after that FDX debacle, I felt like it was it was all on a discount. And I felt like that was it was it was a good time to buy. So and and yet and yet some people I know gave up the whole idea that crypto was ever going to be a thing after that because it’s FTC’s the second biggest exchange or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but that’s just perception, right?

Yeah.

Perception because they were in it and now they’ve lost X percentage of their equity. But if they weren’t in it and they missed that cycle, now they’d be looking at these prices licking their lips. So it’s just perception, right.

No, but it’s like what I’m saying is they lost confidence in cryptocurrency.

Oh, why, why, why.

After after FDX went down. Now, I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that. Yeah, but I know some people who did, you know, and and I guess that’s that’s, that’s the arbitrage, right? So I’m saying that was a good time to buy. Yeah. Yeah. Because there was enough people like that. But it’s a funny one. Yeah. Because you know if in 2000 you said Yeah, the Internet. Yeah. Then you sure that’s a good idea. But if you were invested in some crappy thing that went under in 2002. And Google didn’t even exist at that point. You know, we’re kind of at that point with crypto. It could be that Bitcoin is the Google or or whatever, Etherium or, you know, what’s it going to be, Matic or something? Or it could be it could be that there’s one that we still haven’t heard of. Sure. Or one that’s like. So, you know, a and it’s something that’s so, so, so small right now that we haven’t put enough money in it. It’s a funny thing. Investment. I bet you there’s loads and loads of dentists who’ve lost loads and loads of money on stock markets and cryptos. So I think it kind of relies on that idea of that sort of. Gordon Gekko I can I can do better than the prose here, which, which you can’t.

I’m telling you.

Firsthand, you know.

These guys have been doing it for 24 years professionally, live and breathe it. And then you think you’re going to step in on the on a recreational one and you’re going to do better than those guys, I think. You know, that’s the thing as well, because we’ve got a decent level of education. We think that level of education is transferable. No, it’s very specific. You’ve learned a very, very we’ve learned a very specific trade wire, and it doesn’t transfer that well to many other things. But we I think that’s a bias of sorts. I can’t remember the name, but it’s a bias of sorts where you’ve gotten to a certain level in a pursuit, then we think that we’re at that level for other pursuits as well. But it just certainly isn’t what we.

Think we can get. Which is which is which is actually why we asked you that question at the beginning about the difference between being a dentist and being a dental supplier. Because, you know, if you look at some of the best supply, I don’t know. I’ve always sort of really admired the guys from the guys from Kohl’s. I’ve always really admired those two companies, the people they’ve always hired. There’s loads of others that missing. But, you know, let’s just take those two companies, right? When you look at people who are really good in that business, what they have isn’t necessarily what a great dentist has. It’s a different thing. It’s a different thing. So and, you know, so so that’s what I meant about the. What have you found surprising? Because I clearly remember thinking I could sell because I was selling veneers, veneers to patients, and then later on realising I can’t sell them. I’m not a sales. Sales isn’t my forte. You know, when when we first started talking to dentists about it.

Well, certainly about again, the adoption curve and then you learn a little bit about your market as well, just because you’ve got great products and you can present it and say, look, it’s a really cracking deal. Best Buy, you start it on the market, for example. It doesn’t mean people are going to buy it. So that was a bit surprising because I thought, look, man, I got this great thing, you know, transfer transform me from like zero to, like, mildly better. But like.

Just it.

Transformed me. So you think it can do that for everybody else and you think that it’s just a no brainer, right? But then there was a there was a maturation phase for me becoming all in on this. And there’s a maturation phase for them, too. Like, they’ve seen it like, you know, I’ll give an example. As a guy who came to our first talk, the first talk like the premier, kind of like the story of how I got involved with Growth curve and that whole thing and then that giant for six months, you know, conversations back and forth. But nothing. No, no purchase, no advancement, no like talking about, yeah, let’s do something. And then six months down the line says, Yeah, can you come to my surgery on a book to train my associates? So, like, I’ve understood that, you know, people aren’t on your timeline. They’re on their own, you know? So you can’t, you can’t rush things. You can’t be trying to shove things down their throat. Like people are ready when they’re ready. Right.

Can I have talks about this with patients? He trains practices about the slow, medium and fast lane in the middle lane fastly buyers. And it’s very true. It’s very true. He said something like a third a massive chunk of the of the of the market will take 18 months to decide whether to buy something or not. Something like 30% of the market will be like that. And all of our follow up processes, both in dental practice and I don’t know what your follow up processes are at great curve, right? But at enlighten, you know, the salespeople after they’ve harassed the practice for six weeks or something, they said, Well, this guy’s not interested. Yeah, but, but sometimes it takes 18 months, you know? So it’s a funny thing. Tell me about what you learned from the military.

I learned in the military, I learned that sometimes you’d be part of a team and there would be people in that team you don’t like, but you’ve got to get the job done. And so you find ways to do that. You find ways to do that, not kick up a stink, not kick up a hissy fit. Sometimes it end up in a scrap, but in that kind of environment, that’s alright. But yeah, that was a good thing. You know, just not everyone’s going to agree with you, but people will. People can still follow your orders If you’re respectful and you’ve got a sound thesis, know people can trust your judgement and not have to like you. But yeah, it’s obviously it’s easier if people really like you because then they’re much more likely to kind of go over the hill with you. I learnt I learned a lot about physical challenges. You know, when you’re stressed and you’re, you’re going through a bad patch. Whatnot. You go do something physically demanding, and I’m talking really physically demanding something cold where you can’t think about your worries. Or you can just think about how cold you are and how tired you are and how hungry you are. And how vicious is this wind right now. Now it teaches you a thing or two, right? You know, I don’t think I was the best risk manager, however, you know, because I want to do some parachute jumps with the army.

And that was a bit like everyone was buzzing to do it, all young guys wanting to do it. So I learned that even the most steadfast of people, you know, people who are so like, Oh, I’m going to be a paratrooper. Like, I’ve got friends of mine who really just want to be paratroopers from the beginning, and some want to be Marines and all that. And one of my friends, I’m still really good friends with him now. He’s actually a captain in the parachute regiment now, but he was so steadfast about it. And then we go on this. I do my first jump, and the probabilities will suggest this is supremely unlikely, but my parachute malfunctioned as I jumped out the plane. So it’s basically a ball of washing as I’m falling towards the ground and I’m falling pretty damn fast and I don’t really have that much time to get rid of that one and deploy the second one. Now, this friend of mine who was really steadfast, he was on the ground and he could they obviously knew what was happening, Right. That there had been a malfunction. And then I don’t know. I don’t know if he knew it was me or not. But obviously he knew when I landed. And then that evening we had our next jump plan the next day. He just didn’t want to do it, you know, He just he lost.

He lost his cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was that was really interesting. You know, like, like sometimes, you know what people present and it doesn’t take much sometimes to just derail someone, you know? So and that taught me, you know, if I’m going to do something, I can’t let somebody else’s wobble affect me all my own. You know, if you’ve got like. And anyway, he didn’t. Right. But I remember saying to him, like, look, we’ve got to do this jump now, because if we don’t do it, we’re never going to jump again type of deal. So yeah, we did, it worked out alright. And, but I take that really ironic that same day, the next day where we did a jump, somebody else had a malfunction as well, which is like really improbable. So talk about the heebie jeebies.

With with with the army and stuff like that. You get the sort of from the outside, you look at it like a cliched sort of ideas of, all right, so, you know, they’re they’re the best friends you have or whatever, because you’re going to look after each other. And if it came down to it or I don’t know the transferable skills between leading a battalion of men or leading a company, you know, so. All right. There’s the sort of the sort of from the outside, the obvious stuff here. But what are the nuances? What are the things that I wouldn’t know about that are interesting about being in that group of like in the extremes must bring out things in people. So there’s one that you just mentioned, the this guy losing his cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are the extremes. Well well, I mean, I love that stuff too. I, I remember I remember that there was once Army versus Navy Rugby match. Right? And people came to our unit and I just bought these brand spanking new army boots. Right. These lowers the business. The business. And then when I came in, you know, on drill night, my locker had been busted open and so had everybody else’s. And it was this like visiting unit. They came and just ransacked everybody’s stuff. Right. And that was, I suppose, something. You just think that just doesn’t happen. Right? And there’s there’s other worse things that happen that these are soldiers, you know, like, yeah, they’re professional, they’re professional soldiers, but they’re lads at the end of the day and they’re very laddish and like there’s horrendous things that have happened in units, you know. And then there’s, there’s things like, I know if you’ve ever heard of deep cuts, have you had a deep cut? It’s like a, it’s like a place where loads of people have died on training and they don’t think it’s a coincidence. Yeah, they don’t think it’s a coincidence. You know, like there’s lots of and we’ll probably never know. No one’s ever really going to know. Right. So there’s stuff like that that goes on and then there’s things that leak out that, you know, do the rounds on WhatsApp and then everybody does their best to kind of just put it away. And and even they get told if anyone’s caught sending this stuff around, you know, they’ll get punished and all the rest of it. But yeah, I see my fair share, these kind of funny things. I can’t say too much about those things, but yeah, shocking, shocking things, you know, like sneaking girls into the place and much worse, much worse to the human.

The human. And what’s then bullying and much worse.

Yeah. Bullying. Bullying is a thing. Bullying is a thing, but bullying is a thing in lots of places. Bullying sitting in lots of places. But that’s an environment where actually like. You can kind of stand up for yourself a little bit and it’ll probably be respected. You know, you’ll probably be respected. So it’s maybe a test of sort sometimes as well. It’s a different culture.

And were you were you known as the funny guy in in the military as well?

Well, no. I was definitely a joke. So, like, when they when we used to have, like a drumhead service before going and going off on, like an exercise, they’d be like two or 300 people there. And one of the sergeant majors would ask if he wants to tell a joke while we were waiting for the padre or something, you know, and somebody would come up and tell a rubbish joke and somebody else would tell a rubbish joke. And then he’d ask for me by name and say, Where is he? Bring him in. And then I’d step up and make everyone laugh with a good old like I’ve got three really good ones in my head that I just keep right for those really important situations. But they’re not. They’re not fit for air or they’re not fit for podcast, I promise.

Oh, but tell me this. But, you know, when I look back on Enlightened and I think of regrets I’ve had and I don’t I don’t want you to have those same regrets or any regrets. You of course you have regrets, right? Whatever. Whatever you do in life, you know, you can look back and say, I could have done that differently or done that better. But I feel like one sort of regret I had was early on. We didn’t sort of go down that raising money, entrepreneurial sort of angle. And I remember in the first year we turned over like 80 grand or something and the whole year and I think I remember I think I’d made more as a dentist or something. I remember I remember the number being just really bad, really bad. And then maybe in the second year, I don’t know, maybe it was 140 grand. And then in the third year, maybe it was 160. It wasn’t like it wasn’t an upturn up into the right in the way that people talk about businesses now. And we were we had several cash crises and moments that the whole thing might have just gone away.

And, you know, we’d put our houses up for just to get these silly tiny loan from the bank. And then these days, you know, talking to some some young dentist, he started a company and he said, yeah, you know, we just got £1,000,000 for a first round of finance and now we’re looking at a £4 million round to order, you know, series A and all this. And I sort of thought, you know, I think it took us five years before a total of £1,000,000 had come in. Maybe longer than that, you know, cumulatively five years of pain and risk. And this guy on day one had raised £1,000,000. Have you thought about I remember you came on that show where we were looking for for investment. But if you thought about the differences between, you know, the sort of the corner shop way of doing it, which is the way we did it organic. Or, you know, the more entrepreneurial way of doing it, of bringing in partners, bringing in a CEO, a CFO, bringing in investors. Do you think about those two?

Yeah, for sure. For sure. For sure. Interestingly, you know, I’ve got like a bit of a bit of an angle at the moment that we’re just exploring, which is this bottle that we’re we’re rolling out here, which is people can buy the product directly if they, you know, they can just use the products. We can have like an online offering. So they could do the online course where we go through all the techniques and all the stuff that I’ve learnt and Dr. Brown’s developed and they’ll get the starter kit included in that. So that’s like a really low entry. Then we’ve got the hands on, then we’ve got the in practice. So this kind of framework and I suppose the social data, the WHO resonates with our message most, who do we help most? Who are the people who have benefited the most? And distilling down into all of that kind of stuff allows for us to reproduce this model. You know, we’re scaling it to the point where we’re looking to add trainers very, very quickly. Because just to prove I mean, this one is guys, his name’s Ford. You know, he he came and did the program in May, and he’s just flying, you know, some of his works better than mine, hands down.

Like just beautiful stuff. And so we are exploring how do we how do we not only scale that, but how do we make sure everybody’s got upside and is motivated to do that. But then also look at how we could then move that distribution and education model to other places, you know, so bringing in other people to kind of expand it to other regions as well. So yeah, certainly considering that and in terms of in terms of like having an executive board and all that kind of stuff, right now, it very much is like the Lean Start-Up model, you know, it very much is. Take this as far as it can go right now. And for us, it’s not incremental gains. You know, it is like it was quiet then. It’s less quiet. And then now there’s is somebody reaching out every day, you know, like it’s just building and building on that. So it feels like it’s going at a pace where, yeah, we can still manage it because lots of automations. But yeah, there will be a time where we’re going to have to really structure it.

No, but I mean investment. Yeah. Because once, once you get investment, then you get other people telling you what to do as well. Yeah, but are you going to look for investment or you’re not? Because at least you know, we didn’t. We didn’t. And I regret it. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying to you. It doesn’t. Doesn’t mean. It doesn’t mean that it’s wrong for you or whatever. Right. We were in two totally different times 20 years ago. You are now and you know. But you know what? I wanna reflect on it. I think. Listen, man, you live in London, right? Just the investment capital of the world. I mean, if I was living in some town outside, wherever, then fine. But I’m living in London. I went to school with a bunch of investment people I know a bunch of investment people who are kids, parents or, you know, investments. A huge thing here. Yeah. Yeah. And yet we didn’t do it. We didn’t. And so, by the way, who knows if we’d done it, they might have shut us down five years ago, ten or 15 years ago or whatever. Yeah, but I don’t know, just a bit of unsolicited sort of advice for me, from me to you isn’t go get investment. But consider, you know, be purposeful about whether you are or you aren’t getting investment because, you know, when this kid this kid told me, look, yeah, we raised £1,000,000 on day one, I literally felt those five, six years of pain and suffering that you’re probably going through right now. On day one. This guy brought in that much money with no business. It was a business plan. Yeah, you know, think about it.

Okay? It’s something. I mean, just a tangible. I mean, I understand your angle totally, but we do have two strategic partners now that are. You know, we’ve had discussions about funding from there. And, you know, because we’ve got a bit of synergy, there’s a lot of overlap between their aims and our aims. And some of the conversations we’ve had recently have been, Oh, look, if this goes to plan, we’ll certainly consider funding you because it will help their business for us to do well. So yeah, not totally averse to the idea, but yeah, of course. Just a step at a time, isn’t it?

True? True. All right. But you will. It’s been a massive pleasure talking to you, man, as usual. And I want to. I want to have you back in a couple of years time and know that you’re, like, way forward. Because considering it’s your first year, you’ve done very, very well with this. And if someone wants to learn more about DRA, where do they go?

Yes, I trade directory sort of. Excellent. You can learn more at w w w dot dre composite dot com and the social media is at the same Instagram composite.

And your thing is Dr. Sunny, right?

Yeah. I mean, who wants to look at me.

Now that you said that. Let me, let me, let me take a picture. We always finish with the same two questions, buddy. Let’s start with my fancy dinner party question Fancy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive, Who’s going to be really?

Just list them. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, tell me. You won One by one.

One by one. Marcus Aurelius.

Oh, yeah. You know, stoic.

Yeah. The Emperor.

Stoic.

Good. Yeah. The last good emperor.

Okay. Why? Yeah.

Just what a life. What a life. One of the most powerful people ever in history and chose to be a man of honour and virtue. You know, very, very, very interesting. I find that very, very interesting. Where many people would just succumb to desire and everything else. He chose not to. Had a hard life.

Don’t. You’re a fan of ancient history.

I’m a fan of history. I’m a fan of history. Yeah, History. History. Say, history doesn’t repeat by often rhymes.

Yeah. So Marcus Aurelius.

Number two would be Thomas Sole. Do you know who that is? Thomas Sole?

No. Who’s that?

He’s an economist slash historian, but just a very, very pragmatic thinker. And his books are the ones that really make me just stop and just realise to myself, Man, I’m not as clear as I thought I was. I don’t even understand this page, you know.

So well with the W.

That’s correct.

So what’s the name of the book?

The one I’m getting stuck on right now is a conflict of visions.

I’m on the Wikipedia right now. Just checking him out. But. But go and say something about him. Say something you learned.

So he’s he’s just very, very interesting guy. Like he’s a Harvard professor, Stanford professor. You know, he just he’s an old boy. I really enjoy the company of old boys because they just don’t need to impress anybody anymore. So they just tell you how it is. And this guy is very factual, but also challenges some of some of some of my own beliefs and I suppose many, many people’s beliefs. Right. But you would just certainly challenge it in a very fact based manner, very evidence based. So, yeah, he’s just he’s a breath of fresh air.

Well.

Finally, I love Satoshi Nakamoto.

The guy who made Bitcoin.

And I get my money back.

Could get more money. So, Toshi, whoever that is, right? Yeah.

Or they could be a they could be multiple.

Good answer, man. I haven’t heard that one. That one before. That was a good answer for obvious reasons. Right. So what about perhaps final questions on your deathbed? You got your nearest and dearest around you. Three pieces of advice. You would leave them.

For a moment. Keep it short and sweet, Right? So I’d say to.

Them, No, no, no, no.

All right. Well, I say to to be patient with with others, but strict on yourself.

Mhm.

I let them know that real education happens. Yeah. Real education happens out of the classroom. And they are solely responsible for their education. They can’t rely on other people to teach them. It’s up to them what they learn and how they learn and what they learn. And then I’d say, make time for your wellbeing or be forced to make time for your illness. As I or my dad for different from an alcohol overdose.

And there is one final question that I asked on the on the latest podcast hasn’t gone out yet, but I kind of interested in what you have to say about it. Who would be your your dream guest for this podcast.

Dentist. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the show is called Dental Leaders.

Dentist. Who’s my dream dentist? Having a show. That’s a good one. That is a very good one.

About your guy. The greater curve guy.

Yeah, well, I was just about to say that it.

Has to be.

Dr. Dennis Brown.

Perfect match.

Yeah.

Any others come to mind And the others come to mind?

Any of that? Well, I’ll tell you who’s an interesting person who I’d love to see on this. Who I know, right? And this gentleman is a lab technician.

Yeah.

And he’s a lab tech. And he used to have a lab in Cornwall, and he had a bit of land as well. Long story. He’s got his own story. I won’t spoil it for you, just in case you do get your money. And then he set up his own practice on that same land, became the owner slash principal as a technician and as some of the most top spec dentists.

Working when Jason Smithson worked there. Yeah.

Martin talking. So he’s he’s a quarterback guy.

The practice is a stunner.

Beautiful. I’ve been there. Oh, yeah. I went to go see him.

How do you know him? You just reached out.

Well, of.

Course.

Simon. Of course. He seemed like a really interesting guy because, yeah, he was kind of challenging the lecture, which was interesting. And then so at lunchtime, I just said to you, Can I sit with you? And he said, Yeah. And then we started chatting, start telling me about it. And then he said, Just come see it. So I did.

It. As beautiful as it looks.

Oh, stunning. Beautiful, Beautiful place. Beautiful, lovely people. Lovely people, Lovely culture. He’s a great guy as well.

Brilliant, buddy. It’s been. It’s been a pleasure. Pleasure’s all mine. I hope to see you soon. Are you exhibiting any of the dental shows?

They will be at the. The media.

What do you do?

Yeah. And we’ve got another one that will be at this this month. But this is not to the public. So I’ll tell you about earlier.

Call me. Call me about the media. The first. The first time you do media, it’s a bit of a massive shock. Why has that happened? Oh, really? Yeah. Call me. We’ll talk about that, buddy.

Oh, lovely. Appreciate that.

I wish someone. I wish someone had done that for me. First PDA I went to.

Oh, really? I appreciate that.

Yeah, Well, thanks so much for doing this, buddy. As always, such a such a pleasure to spend time with you. I’d love to see you soon. In real life, for sure.

We’ll make it happen.

Cool, Betty.

Take care.

Hey.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

Don’t take the shortcut in life. Stay pushing yourself. Take the long journey. Because it’s about the journey. Of course, the destination is important. You know, what you’re trying to achieve is important. But don’t try and take the shortcut. You know, do things properly. Do things that will challenge you because that’s how you grow and that’s how you become better. Getting to the end point is not how you’ve got better. It’s that whole journey, the challenges, the tests. That’s how you get better.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Let’s get let’s get to darker moments.

Now, here we go.

Normally we get to the normally get to them a bit earlier on this podcast, but someone was telling me, I’ve met someone on the weekend that you really enjoy that bit with the darker moments. Yeah. And I kind of do, if I’m being honest, to.

Talk to you. Payman You got really.

Enjoyed for sure. Tell me. I mean, it’s important we talk about them, right? We learn, we learn from them, and we don’t talk about them enough in medicine or dentistry mistakes. Tell me about mistakes you’ve made. It could be an oh, shit moment. It could be a treatment planning mistake. It could be a patient who lost their confidence. And you know that that sort of patient management mistake. Tell me something about mistakes. You must have had your fair share. Doing the kind of work you’re doing.

To be honest, I’ve had that many mistakes during my career. It’s really difficult for me to point out which one would be, you know, the most relevant one at this stage. You know.

Some something people can learn from.

Oh, I’ve got Payman honesty. I have that many and everyone can learn from. And that is the best way of learning, isn’t it? People talk about learning from your mistakes, but actually that’s not the best way. The best way of learning is from learning from other people’s mistakes. I mean, even from maybe six months ago, six months ago. So this is more of a recent mistake. I had a patient travel up quite a long distance from Ipswich, came up with their dentist, the dentist came with their nurse. The patient’s quite medically compromised. They’re on, I think, three different types of chemotherapeutic drugs, so quite hardcore drugs. So we had to liaise with the medics to to time her surgery to make sure she’s off the drugs for a certain period before it gets really bad and then put her back on it. So everything had to be timed really well with sedating her. And she has a very, very atrophic mandible. So like very, very atrophic. So she had seen a number of people who said no to her that they wouldn’t treat her. She had something like six mils in heights of bone, so really quite thin. So that’s thinner than a pencil and about the same amount in width bucko, lingual. So I’m doing the surgery and it’s quite stressful surgery of course, because there’s a high risk of mandible fracture. And this lady is aware of the risks and there’s also risks of bleeding, risk of numbness, because the nerves on the on the bony crest and everything’s going well.

And then I can’t remember what happened. I can’t remember what happened. But as I was placing this implant because it was quite high stress and I wanted to be in and out with this case, I’d put the implants in for implants were going in. You know, this is the last implant. I was getting really happy because I knew she’d have fixed teeth and she’s not had fixed teeth in the past. I think 25 years she’s not had any fixed teeth. She’s not been able to eat any solid food. And I put the implant in the carrier and I go to put the implant into the hole that I’d made. And I had it changed the settings on my motor. So the implant went in at the same speed as I as I was drilling the bone, which is something like 1200. And it’s meant to, it’s meant to go in at 30. So you can understand the difference in ratio. Yeah. And the implant went in. I couldn’t then leave it there because it went in too deep and half of the implant was sticking out under her jaw. So it had gone through the mandible because there was at least six mils in high anyway, and the top of the implant was at the was at the lower border of the mandible.

Goodness. So I and it’s an implant that you can’t reverse out because it’s kind of a press fit. I couldn’t get the carrier on to reverse that out. It’s stuck there. So I’m in this predicament. I can’t leave it there because it’s sticking out of her lower jaw. It’s sticking out of her chin. So I then have to well, I didn’t know what to do. I was I was in a oh shit moment type thing. And I was really quite stressed about it. And I’ve not been that stressed in a hell of a long time. And I do, as you know, I do quite high risk work and I’m here, there and everywhere in in the jaw’s upper and lower. But I was really stressed in that case and I had no choice but to remove bone around this implant, which then meant a high risk of mandible fracture. I had my plating kit there. So just in case, if the mandible fractured, I could plate it together. But that’s not ideal because it’s an atrophic mandible and it’s hard to to plate together if it fractures. So it’s just really, really stressful and all because I did it check the motor settings as I was putting the implant in. It’s just one of those off key moments, you know, that happened and that was only six months ago, you know. But anyway.

When you drilled, drilled around it, you drilled around it and you managed to get some sort of purchase on it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, you know, you have to then expose the lower board of the mandible and put an instrument up to try and push it upwards as you’re trying to pull it out at the same time. So it was just, it was just high stress which could have been avoided. And actually, you know, that’s more of a recent thing. There’s been you know, there’s been other, you know, kind of cases where I’ve had significant bleeds. You know, I’ve had some really big bleed. That have happened. You know, that’s been hard to stop because, you know, how do you stop a bleed once it’s happened? You try and litigate it, you try and cauterise it, but it’s spraying out so quickly that it’s hard to like, you know, close it off or cauterise it or whatever. I’ve had some really. I’ve also had some stressful moments in GI during my training where I got really well with one of my trainers. We’ve had some high risk cases coming into into hospital. And again, they’re coming into hospital because they’re high risk cases, but you don’t realise exactly how high risk they are until you’re actually doing it. But yeah, I’ve had, I’ve had all kinds of things happen. Um, but that’s the most.

When something goes wrong like that. A lot of times you rely on your relationship with the patient to get you out of that, to say, you know, put your hands up. Say, Look, something’s gone wrong. I’ve done my best. You haven’t got a relationship. You haven’t got a relationship with these patients. I do pay. How do you.

Manage? I do because I’ve already screened them to make sure that they’re reasonable people and they understand the complexity and nature of the work that we’re doing.

Have they? That they’ve never met you before? You’ve done the work?

No, but it’s really quite interesting, actually. Even today, I’ve had I’ve had a case referred to me where this lady had gone around all the houses. She’s got all these failing implants and she’s high risk of mandible fracture. Again, it’s an Atrophic case. She’s got six implants all done in India. They’ve been there for 15 years, 20 years. They’ve all they’ve lost all the bone around them. And just taking the implants out is high risk. But she’s got to see that many people who have all said no and my name has popped up and then her I think her daughter is a doctor and she’s friends with some implant dentists who have also mentioned my name. So she’s come to to see this mentee of mine, knowing that she’ll see my mentee and knowing that I’ll be the one doing it. So even though I’ve not met her, she she’s aware of who I am because, you know, word kind of gets around because not many people want to do these kind of cases, which are very high risk. So I’ve already built up a relationship, not not a relationship, but there’s.

Already I get it. I get it.

And then when I do meet that patient, you know, I’m I’m a very frank kind of person. I’m very, very frank. I’m sometimes people may think I’m quite brash and abrupt, but with this type of work, I can’t I can’t afford to be cotton wool knowing that the procedure, you know, I have to be quite direct with patients. And I think that comes across as experience and patients appreciate that.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree that you can’t. I think what you meant, you can’t sugarcoat it. Right. It’s, it’s kind of, it’s yeah, it’s like it’s a big surgical procedure, you know, you’re going through that story. Just stress the hell out of me. Yeah.

And you know what, Payman? Because you ask me. Because you asked me to repeat that story like the stress was coming.

Back to me.

Yeah, I did. Yeah. I was like, Jesus Christ, Why did I? You know, because you start thinking because a lot. You have to remember a lot of these patients have nowhere to go because a lot of people don’t want to touch them or treat them. So they’re reaching out to me, knowing that, you know, I’ve said yes to them and there’s a kind of a light at the end of the tunnel. And I, of all people, want the treatment to go as smoothly as possible with no complications at all, you know, So I’m then doing these kind of treatments. And sometimes when these things happen, I think, why the hell am I doing this work for? You know, I could just say no to the patient. They can go away with a denture. It’s not my problem. But I’m legitimately out there, genuinely out there to try and help patients and help solve their problems, which is their quality of life. You know, people forget that we provide implants. Well, especially this level of implants, because, you know, patients have lost their quality of life. They’re not coming to see me because they want nice, gleaming white teeth that Robbie does or Kailash does or, you know, these lovely, you know, the lovely work that these guys do. They’re coming to see me because they can’t eat, they can’t speak, you know, which also means they can’t walk out of their house and go for a swim because their teeth won’t stay in, you know. So they just want quality of life back and a little bit of normality. And it’s disappointing for me when things like that happen.

I was I was listening to Laura Horton. You’re aware of what you must be. She’s like a TCO trainer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On a different on a different podcast, on Sandeep podcast. And, and she was saying, you know, that, that getting through when you train a TKO getting through the idea that you know their teeth but if it’s. Life changing dentistry like the stuff you’re doing, then you’re talking about, like you say, someone being able to eat, someone being able to kiss, to fall in love. You know, these are these are really super important things, right? Yeah. And to get that through to the to the team here that we are, we’re providing that sort of service is not just a filling or a a bleaching or my world. You know, It’s amazing. It’s amazing stuff.

Yeah, that is it. It’s. It’s the whole face. It’s not just their teeth, it’s the whole face. And and to be fair, that’s the reason why I do this work. It’s so rewarding. It’s so fulfilling.

But I might be wrong about this year because we don’t really know each other. We’ve met here for the first time. Yeah, but you don’t strike me as the type of guy who’s up for sitting around in meetings on boards of of stuff. And yet you are treasurer of the HDI. Or am I wrong about that?

You’re right. Yeah, you are right. You really have done your research about my background. But yeah, no, that’s right. I’ve so it’s quite interesting isn’t it, because you mentioned that Amit Patel So I had never met Amit Patel before and we used to clash, not clash but you know, you know, I told you seven, eight years ago I was a little bit more abrupt on social media.

Social media has a way of doing that to people.

Yeah, it does. It does. But to be fair though, payment, I can be quite abrupt in real life as well. I let people know my thoughts and my feelings. I don’t shy away from that. So so. So Amit Patel is also, I think, quite a similar personality sometimes. But and we both started on the ADI together and it’s quite unusual because we were both also, you know, normally you have to get elected onto the ADI, but we were both invited onto the ADI. The Northwest Study Club kind of went downhill a little bit. So, you know, I was asked to come on board with the ADI to try and bring up the membership in the Northwest. And we did really well, actually. And I think my first my first speaker was actually Zaki, and Zaki is now president elect. After I’m.

About to be.

President. Zaki about to be president, yeah. And Zaki literally sold out the tickets and that that first event, we didn’t even have room for standing I think from memory we had just over 90, 90 people turn up and it was just a successful after afterwards I’ve got some really good guys and girls to come in and speak. And then over the years I’ve kind of moved up a little bit in the ADI where I was the the study club director, and then I became Treasurer and I’ve been treasurer now for I think four years I’ve been Treasurer.

So I.

Was a Steve.

Jones, which was a big job at the ADI because I got a lot of money. It’s got, it’s got that reputation as a very rich organisation.

Payman I get the feeling that you’re kind of saying, why are you the Treasurer? You don’t really suit it and you’re.

Probably right, I’ll say.

I’m more of a clinician on. I know you know what, you’re absolutely right. But actually what, what a lot of people don’t know when it comes to the ADI is the ADI and all the members of the board, which include study club directors, includes the presidents, the past president, the president elect, the treasurer, the academic rep. We’re all equal in voice and actually the work we do. Yes, there’s a certain level of, you know, accountancy and treasurer work that I have to do. But actually, you know, we all work together as a team. All the decisions that we make, not everything obviously, but the vast majority of decisions we make are made as a team. It’s a team effort. Even even Amit right now is the President. Yes, he’s the president, but actually he’s the spokesperson. All that is, all the decisions we make are made as a team, as a and we’re making those decisions as a team on behalf of our membership. It’s not me just doing it. It’s not just doing it. It’s not Zaki. Just all of us are working together. It’s not always smooth sailing, of course, because we’re all of certain personalities, you know, and we all will agree on things and we’ll all disagree with things. And that’s the nature of the beast, really, isn’t it? But generally, I think, you know, we’ve done really well when it comes to the ADR. I mean, our last masterclass for AM, it ran I can’t remember the figures, but it was something ridiculous. You know, I think almost doubled to to what we had in the previous masterclass. And I think the HDI has gone from strength to strength. And I think once Zacky takes over from Amit’s presidency, it’s going to just keep going up. You know, I think it’s just going to keep going onwards and upwards, really.

I want to turn up. To one of the events because they look so lavish. They are.

They are lavish. Yeah. It’s great. You know what? Actually pay what you should. It’s not you know, it’s not just for implant dentists. I think it’s for all dentists who want to just, you.

Know, party guys to.

It’s not just for it’s not just for parties. Definitely not for parties. You know, I can I can honestly say hand on my heart the speakers, we get that come to our master classes and conferences. There are some, you know, really shit hot world class speakers that are that are around. You know, I’m really quite proud to to see some of the names that turn up to to the events. And actually that’s not just the international stuff. Even our members forum, you know, the members forum for the Adye where we get our, our members from the UK who want to provide a lecture on a certain topic. Some of the lectures that come about on the members forum are so thought provoking. You know, it’s, it’s so interesting and it’s great watching our kind of local, local people like step on stage and present their work. It’s amazing, you know, it’s but yeah, the parties are pretty good as well and you should come just for the parties as well. It’s pretty cool.

Are you planning I’m getting from this sort of presidential tone that you’re putting out now that are you planning to be a president to yourself as well? Is it like a pathway that the Treasurer then becomes the elect and then becomes is that think?

I think I know it’s not.

Are you presidential? Are you president quality by quality? Is it something you want to be the president?

That’s a that’s a that’s that’s a quite a pertinent question, really. I suppose it’s quite a deep, deep question. And I suppose I’ll be I’ll be quite frank. I think it’s not always the best position. I think sometimes it’s a little bit of a poison chalice being the president. But actually, yes, it’s quite a prominent role. It’s quite a prominent title. And for anyone passionate about implant ology and especially passionate about the Adeyeye, I think that’s always going to be, I suppose, on your horizon a little bit. You know, if I if I didn’t become if I didn’t become president, you know, I’m still quite happy knowing that I’ve made a certain contribution to the organisation, I’ve made a contribution to the work we’ve done as, as part of the ADEYEYE as a group. I’m quite happy for the contribution that I’ve made with the work we’ve done in conjunction with C.G. Dent, which was the old FDP and our collaboration with the one. Nelson Yes, that’s right, Yeah. Yeah. So we teamed up with them for some for some funding. You know, you mentioned mentoring, mentoring. We teamed up with them for the new mentoring guidelines for implant ology. So that’s I think that was their first guidelines that they set as part of the new organisation of stents leaving for VDP in the past. So yeah, I think I think, you know, I’m quite happy with the work that I’ve done so far. I’ll be happier if I can get to continue with the work, I think. But yeah, it’s not a politically worded good enough statement on, on, on. In answer to your question that I.

Know you you, you’ve certainly got the political side down my sleeve. It it’s good to see that. It’s good to see you.

You know it’s funny payment because I actually rang up am it before I came on this podcast and I was like it you’ve done this podcast. I’ve listened to your podcast like did they, did they tell you the questions they’re going to ask you in advance or or did they just, you know, And he’s like, No, no, no, no. Because I obviously, I’ve done podcasts before and I get the questions in advance and I was like, okay, that’s fine. But was there any controversial questions like, Do I need to know anything in advance because I’m rubbish at thinking off the cuff. I’m quite a.

Basic.

Basic minded person. I can’t think of the cuff.

You know what it is? You know what it is. Yet, you know what’s amazing about podcasts is that there’s a massive appetite for real talk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re cutting people off. God, that’s what you do. That’s. People want to see it.

Yeah, but real talk. You know, I had a conversation with Kailash last weekend, two weekends ago at the BCD, and it might have been a conversation that me and Kailash would have had over a beer, and it happened to be recorded, You know, real talk. Not. No, not agenda talk, not preplanned, not, you know, just just comment. And there’s a massive appetite for that. And, you know, the audience who listen to this need to listen to this ahead of. I don’t know. It’s not. It’s not. We’re not even in competition with other Dental stuff. We’re in competition with media, you know, with and, you know, real talk is is where it’s at at the moment. You know, that’s why we try not to give the questions out in advance, because I wouldn’t want it to be real, you know?

You know, I completely get that. And actually, if you really wanted that, then I should have had a couple of pints before this podcast that would have really got me settled off. But then if that had happened, I probably would have got a million phone calls after this podcast saying.

What the fuck have you.

Speak like, you know, because I’ll just say as it is a little bit, um, so it’s a bit of a balance, isn’t it, really? It’s a bit of a balance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re coming to the end of the time. I’m quite interested in what you said about wanting to be a priest. Now, where are you now? With your. I am. I am interested that. Where. Where are you now in your belief system? I mean, as a 18 year old, you were there. Where are you now with that.

Oh, that’s. Yeah. So I suppose, you know, everything changes in life, isn’t it? Outlooks and beliefs and thoughts kind of change in life. So where I am now is a very, very different place from where I was as someone in my late teens and early twenties, you know, late teens. I was actually quite deep, early twenties. I really wasn’t because I was out there just drinking away. You know, most of my time spent at undergraduate university was spent drinking and also organising events to drink in, um, you know, in Liverpool, I think in Liverpool in the early two, thousands had very little hip hop and garage and you know, that type of music. And I’d come from London and I’d come from Cranford, Southall, Hounslow and you know, garage was big back then, so most of my time was organising garage events or hip hop nights and things like that. But now my thoughts into life is very, very different from that. So in terms of religion, I wouldn’t say I’m particularly religious, I would say I’m quite spiritual. If anything, I feel quite sad that people do kind of always want to point out differences between their personal religions as opposed to come together and point out the similarities amongst all the, you know, the world kind of major religions and minor religions, to be honest. So I would say I’m kind of yeah, I’m more spiritual as opposed to religious. You know, you treat people how you want to be treated and you practice your religion in your own personal house and, you know, speak openly about it. I sometimes take offence to people wanting to instil their personal not just religious beliefs but personal beliefs onto me and onto others. But that’s the way of the world, isn’t it? I don’t think I can change that.

So you still believe in God?

Is God the right word? Yeah, I suppose so. If you class God as like a highly I don’t know how many different interpretations of that word God, isn’t it? Um, yes, it’s simple answer. Yes. I still believe in God.

It sounds what you’re saying. I know you said you don’t like the sort of classification of people into different, but you’re sounding more Buddhist than. Then, Christian.

Well, I suppose you could be both, really, isn’t it? There’s nothing to stop you from being Buddhist and Christian. So I’ve got a strong respect for Buddhism and Buddha and his thoughts, and I would actually class myself as a potentially Christian and potentially Buddhist because the two aren’t mutually exclusive. You could say you have to remember Payman. So I grew up in India to a certain level and all my family are in India still now. It’s just my my parents and my brother who’s over here and growing up in India is very different from growing up here in the UK And coming from an Indian household is also very, very different. And I’m not talking about British Indians or British Asians, I’m talking about Indian Indians, and especially in South India, and especially more so in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, which is kind of the areas I’m from, where the society is very, very socialist in nature and also in religion. It’s a very, very open and welcoming kind of community. We all have a lot of love for each other. So where we’re from in Kerala, you know, there’s a lot of harmony amongst the, the main religious groups, which are the Christians, the Muslims, the Hindus and the Jains. We all get on really well with each other. We all celebrate each other’s kind of festivals. And, you know, we all, we all literally gel together and, and I think that’s very different from the north because the north of India had a very different history where they had various invasions from different areas of the world. And so it was always constantly in, I suppose, you know, a bit of a battle.

And those kind of wars came about with religious aspects to it as well. So there’s a certain level of, you know, disharmony in the north, and that’s very, very different in the south. You know, actually the south, you have to remember India was made as a country by the British. It was a very different country before. It was essentially princely states. And actually the South, the south have a has a very different culture, a very different history, a very different language and outlook on things to the north. So my upbringing in the south of India kind of moulded me to to who I am now. So my uncle, for example, my mum’s brother is an archbishop in the Orthodox Church and he holds quite a senior position on the World Council of Churches. So he regularly meets the Pope and so on. But his doctoral thesis was on the Bhagavad Gita, which is one of the Hindu holy, holy scripts. And actually if you speak to him again, he’s very, very spiritual and religious. And his outlook on the various religions out there, you know, coming as a scholar is very, very open compared to some of the other kind of, I suppose, priests. And I’m not when I say priest, I don’t mean just Christian priests, but, you know, priests from various religious clerics, from the various different faiths that may have a little bit more of a closed mind when it comes to other religions. So, yeah, my my outlook is very different.

Kerala sounds like a super interesting place. I’ve never been. But, you know, you hear about the female literacy rate a lot. You. Yeah, the food. I’d really love to go a couple of times but Kerala sounds yet different again because the Kerala I’ve spoken to really really point that out to me. Yeah.

Like yeah, it’s not like Goa Payman is.

Nothing like Goa.

Goa is a Goa is like comparing London and like a bar in London. And your local pub is like when you’re comparing Goa and Kerala because Goa, you have to remember it’s just a tourist place. It’s not really India, you know. Of course there’s some actual Indian places around there, but most people go to Goa as a tourist place and it’s nothing like India and Kerala, you know? And if you speak to most Malay allies, we’re quite strong in our opinion of Kerala and how great it is and how we’d all like to go back because it really is that amazing. And it really is honestly, you know, I look back at how lucky we are as a society in Kerala and that’s mainly because we are a little bit more socialist. We’re not hardcore communists, we’re a bit socialist, we are a little bit more harmonious amongst our religions. And people just gel, you know, people get on with each other and it works really well. And it’s not just literacy. We’ve got, you know, comparable figures of quality of life. The West, as well as not just quality of life, but quality of death, which is also quite an important factor. We’ve got similar figures to health care in the West. You know, so there’s a lot of positives when it comes to care. And you know, when you land in Canberra, everything’s flipping green. You know, there’s that much greenery out there and you know, it’s just it’s astounding. And I love visiting that place. You know, it’s it’s an amazing it’s it really is a home from home for me.

I hope I don’t become one of the, you know, one of those silly tourists who comes and ruins it for you because it’s suddenly becoming a more popular place on the on the there’s people going to Kerala a lot these days. Yeah. But it is on my list to tell you it’s on my list to go.

You know, funnily enough, it’s not the tourist from outside of India. It’s the it’s the tourists from within India that are coming to Kerala the most. Yeah, the North Indians and people from elsewhere. You know, when I was growing up, we would never, ever see a Sikh person ever. And if he did see a Sikh person, a sick person from the north, everyone would stop and just stare at them in Kerala. And now, you know, it’s an every when I go back, you know, it’s just a it’s an everyday occurrence. Same with people from Afro-Caribbean or African backgrounds. You know, you wouldn’t often see people from that background. And same with people from a Caucasian background. You wouldn’t see them that often in Kerala and all these different people, If you did see them back in the day, everyone would stop and just look because they’re just never seen someone who was Sikh or see someone who was of a white background or see someone from a black background. You know, it was just a different world. It’s completely different now. Of course, it’s you know, the worlds are oyster really, isn’t it?

It’s on the tourist map now. You know, you just hear of people going to Kerala. It’s it’s a thing I’ve heard several times from different people. It’s anything really when at the end we are. Yeah, yeah, I know. My, my designer, he, he just came back from Kerala, not just a year ago. He came back and loved it, adored it, and he was telling me to go for sure.

You know, my. My heart. My heart does get a little bit sad when when I hear that purely because, you know, people are just. Yeah, exactly. It’s my secret. Anybody know? You know, it’s not that. It’s only because, you know, sometimes tourism is great for the for the state and for the local population. And, you know, it brings up the economy. But but there’s also negatives when it comes to with tourism. And you certainly do see the negatives. So, you know, as I was saying, Kerala was always, you know, culturally such a harmonious place. And now, you know, we’re seeing, you know, the influence from certain Middle Eastern countries with the local Muslims. We’re seeing certain influence from the more hardline Hindus coming in to Kerala, and we’re seeing influences from the Western Christians coming in, the hardcore Western Christians coming in. And that, you know, that doesn’t help necessarily, but you can start.

To see this. These societies are a delicate balance. You can mess that up for sure. There’s no doubt about that. Let’s get to our final questions. With this one. I want to ask a third one.

Oh, really?

Yes. Let’s. Let’s start. Let’s start. Well, let’s start with your with your fancy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? Yeah. Who would you have?

So I’ve had this question being asked before, and it’s really interesting. Dead or alive, who would I have? And I’ll be honest, if I had if if, if I could have one wish and I would honestly want. And it’s not three people, unfortunately, but I would want a dinner party with my family. That’s what I’d want. So you’re saying.

Your family, your wife and kids?

Wife, Kids, Mum, dad, brother, his kids and wife. But obviously that’s not three people and that’s not the answer you want. So if you’re asking.

Yeah. Yeah.

If you ask me about individual personalities of the world, who would I have? That’s a you know, if you’re asking specifically for that, probably the, the three people I would choose would be Bruce Lee, number one. I think Bruce Lee was an amazing person individual, and he was unfortunately short lived, but he was so ahead of his time as a human, not just in terms of martial arts. I know people know him as a martial artist, but also as a philosopher. He was he’s an amazing philosopher. You know, he was well ahead of his time when it comes to a lot of things, martial arts, philosophy, you know, ways.

Of martial arts yourself.

Yeah, I’ve done a little bit. I’ve done, um, I’ve done quite a bit, actually. Not a little bit. I’ve done quite a bit. So, yeah, Bruce Lee was a big influence on me on that. And, and he moulded my life in a lot of ways. So. Bruce Lee Number one, I’d probably then say because it has to be religion, as I mentioned of, you know, I was into religion, but I’d have to be Jesus number two just to just to know, you know, if if he was legit or not, you know. Yeah. You know, you know what payment. It’s interesting you mentioned Buddha. Did you know that there’s a theory? I mean, I don’t know if you’ve if you know much about the Bible, but, you know, in the Bible, the New Testament, you know, we have stories about Jesus’s birth and then there’s a there’s a massive gap in his timeline where the next kind of stories or recordings of him are when he’s around 33 years of age. So mid thirties, early thirties. So he’s kind of gone from childhood, disappeared and then come back as an adult. And there’s a lot of theory. The theory is he went to Asia during this period and he encountered Buddha and Buddhist teachings and then he came back to the Middle East and started preaching.

And it’s.

Very.

Similar. I have heard that before.

You’ve heard that right?

I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that from Ahmadi Muslims saying that they believe Jesus went to India. And and I know there’s definitely a connection between the two Buddhism and Christianity. I think you know about all these religions generally. Well, not generally, but religions. There’s a lot of sort of borrowing from each other. I don’t mean I don’t mean necessarily I’m not talking. Yeah, but I’m not talking only about, oh, you know, treat others as you would like to be treated like that. Those obvious rules of life that are sort of successful ways of living. But but you know how religions build on top of each other. Yeah. I don’t know that I saw film. Maybe it was rubbish, but it was a film called Zeitgeist.

Oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah, it was talking. Have you seen it? Yeah, it was talking about how Christianity was the last of like 40 other religions that came before it, that started off as stories about the stars and, you know, the three Kings with these three stars that would go over and then the Christ gets comes back from the dead. And, you know, you know, there’s a lot of influences between religions. I do get that.

Well, it’s for those reasons. It’s for those reasons. I’d like to clarify with speaking to Jesus exactly.

Whether he’s legit or not.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And and then the last one, the last one is probably a little bit unusual, but it’s it’s actually a guy called Gamma is a guy called the Great Gamma, or people will know him as the great Gamma. But Gamma but he’s actually a wrestler from well, as I said earlier on, you know, India-Pakistan was only made about from the 1940s, but he was born from the Punjab region, which is, you know, at the time not part of India or Pakistan. I think he he then migrated to Pakistan. I don’t think I know he migrated to Pakistan. So he was a muslim from Hindustan from back in the day before it separated to India and Pakistan. And he was probably considered even now, one of the world’s best wrestlers, well ahead of his time. I think he was born in 1908, sorry, 1870 something, and he died in 1960 something. I think he died when he was 82 or something like that. But again. An amazing martial artist wrestler. You know, he travelled the world, even even from the 19 tens onward to test himself. And that’s what I admire about him. He wasn’t satisfied with testing his own ability in India at the time, which was a massive, massive country. You know, it was Pakistan, Bangladesh and India to what we consider now. But he wanted to travel the world and truly test his ability. And that’s that’s awe inspiring, especially from back then. And he was undefeated for, I think, 50 odd years, you know, going from all different countries, from America to Europe to Asia. You know, just one random guy from a village in India who tested himself out. That was a true test of his ability. So I’d love to meet him.

I really admire looking at pictures of him.

Very. He’s a very impressive guy to.

It’s actually a familiar image. I’ve seen that image before. But it says it says on Wikipedia, Bruce Lee was an avid follower of his.

Yep. Yep. So Bruce Lee copied, not copied. Bruce Lee followed his training regimes because he followed his wrestling training because, again, Bruce Lee learned from the best, briefly learned boxing from Muhammad Ali, you know, wrestling from the Great Gummer and a whole bunch of people. You know, Bruce Lee was really ahead of his time when it came to mixed martial arts. But yeah, Bruce Lee followed great government. But also what people don’t know about the great Gama is he was one of the few, not few there were there were loads, but he was one of those Muslims who also helped hide Hindus and smuggled Hindus back into India during the partition partition. And he saved. Yeah, during the partition. Yeah. So he saved a lot of lives back then. So, you know.

And it’s amazing. Amazing. It’s amazing to think that someone like Bruce Lee was taking influences from a wrestler born in 1870 in India. It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah, it’s a beautiful thing.

Yeah. Amazing story. Great. Gummer. Yeah.

Yeah. So those are my people.

Those are my three guys.

Amazing, amazing, amazing dinner party, those two martial artists and Jesus.

Yeah. A bit of a spectrum from philosophy to martial arts, really, isn’t it? Yeah.

Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. You’re right. Let’s, let’s, let’s ask about your perhaps famous deathbed question.

That question. Jesus Christ.

You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest family, friends, whoever around you who have hopefully they’re all old by then was three pieces of advice you would give to you, to everyone, to to them and to the world.

So the three pieces of advice that I would give, it’s difficult question really, isn’t it? Because there’s loads of things you can give. But I would probably say.

God.

Why is that? Well, actually going back to the great karma where you push yourself and really challenge yourself and do things that you may not always feel comfortable doing, or even actually you may feel fearful in doing, keep pushing. So whether that’s work related or, you know, physical exercise related or even mental health related to keep pushing yourself. So that’s in all aspects of life. You just keep pushing, keep challenging yourself. I wrote.

I did.

A post about that recently. Yeah. Get out of your comfort zone. That’s exactly it. Get out of your comfort zone, because that’s what makes you grow. When you get out of your comfort zone, you grow by getting out of that comfort zone.

So true.

So. So that’s one advice. I wrote a post about that. Not not maybe as specific as about that, but I went to see Black Panther two, Wakanda forever, and the main actor from the Black Panther. He wrote a speech. He made a speech, and he was saying more or less the same thing. You know, don’t take the shortcut in life. Stay pushing yourself. Take the long journey, because it’s about the journey. Of course, the destination is important. You know, what you’re trying to achieve is important, but don’t try and take the shortcut, you know, do things properly, do things that will challenge you because that’s how you grow and that’s how you become better. Getting to the end point is not how you’ve got better. It’s that whole journey, the challenges, the tests. That’s how you get better. So that would be my one. My first advice, I suppose maybe my second piece of advice is maintaining your integrity. So I think when it comes to on your deathbed, people will remember you for your actions, not maybe all your actions, but you know you’ll be remembered for what you’ve done. You know, they’ll remember your name and for your what work you’ve done, whether that’s clinical work within dentistry or whether that’s outside of dentistry. And your integrity will will define what work you do. So and your reputation, of course.

In dentistry integrity is such an interesting thing because, you know, a lot of people, class integrity is what you do when no one else is looking.

And yes.

So in dentistry, no one else is.

Do the right thing.

Most of the time, do the right thing right. You know, it’s very easy to do, not the right thing when no one’s looking. But that’s the difference between integrity and not. So it’s huge for us because no one’s looking most of the time.

Yeah. And you know what? You are right in that payment because I, you know, I do worry sometimes not not just as dentists, but as as as humans, you know, Are we always focussed in doing the right thing? And you’re right. Integrity. That’s such a good way of putting it. It’s what you do when no one’s looking and you’ve got to keep striving for that, keep kind of keep kind of to your to the goodness in your heart. And if you don’t do that, unless you’re really, really evil and there’s something wrong, if you don’t do that, you won’t sleep well. You know, you can’t go to bed. You know, your family will suffer because you won’t be right, because the more wrong things you do that will start to come out in your actions and that will spread to your immediate family, not just other people that aren’t connected to you. So it’s really important that you always stay on the right path and and do the right things in life.

It sounds like you do believe in karma.

Oh, yeah. Massive. Yeah, Yeah, massive, massive believer in that. And that’s whether you call it karma or you reap what you sow or all of that. Yeah, yeah. You do something wrong, you’re gonna, you’re going to get back to that and that again is down to probably because you know, I’m an Indian Christian, so I’ve got my Christian side and I’ve got my Hindu, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, and karma is massive when it comes to Buddhist teachings and Hindu teachings, isn’t it. But yeah, do the right thing and you’ll reap the rewards. So that’s probably my my second.

Get out of your comfort zone. Do the right thing. Yeah. What’s the first?

The third thing is probably find your, find what you love, find your passion, whether that’s dentistry or not, you know. You know, you could be a dentist. You may not like it if you don’t like it, find something else to do. Don’t try and persevere in doing something you don’t like doing. You’re not going to you’re not going to get your rewards out of it, and you will only really become good in what you’re doing if you truly enjoy what you’re doing. You know, we spoke as we were speaking and I said, I currently work because I enjoy what I do. I don’t. To be honest, I think you get to a certain age or stage in your career. I think I can say this quite confidently. All of us at this stage in our career, we don’t really need to work. We certainly don’t really need to work the hours that some of us work. We kind of do that maybe because we like the challenge of our work, we enjoy our work, or there could be other reasons, but I know I don’t work for any other reason other than the fact that I enjoy my work. There’s no other reason. And then because I enjoy my work, everything else will will follow. So I will then do my research. I’ll I’ll enjoy going on implant courses and learning about implant ology, and then my patients will benefit because I really love my work. I’ll always try and do the best I can. So it’s then it then has a snowball effect. So whether that’s dentistry or not. My other my last advice would be do what you really, really enjoy doing, Find your passion and and just focus on it and give it your all.

Slice. One. Slice. Find something you love and get good at it, right? I think you’re right. It goes hand in hand. It goes hand in hand anyway. I’m going to ask you one other question. Who would be your sort of dream guest on this show? Who would you like to see?

Oh, wow. Jesus Christ. I need to stop being blasphemous then. Dream guest on this show. Who would I like.

Or dream cast?

Well, anywhere in the world.

On this show. So this show is called Dental Leaders.

Okay, so, Dental. And obviously you have to be alive, so it’s not hypothetical. Dental. Leaders.

Because I have I had I had my I had my dream guest on.

Who was your dream guest and.

Andy DUGUID.

Right. Okay.

I just wanted to I wanted to meet that guy, man.

And why was he your dream guy?

I’ve just been following him for so many years, you know?

But he’s an implant, dude. He’s an implant guy.

Such a. He’s a businessman. All right. So, you know his many things. He’s many things. But it’s such a pioneer in technology. It’s such a pioneer. And at the top of the field for such a long.

Time ahead of the game.

And I’d never. I’d never met him. He was. He was you know, I just watched him from a distance. And he actually when he came when we were actually doing the show face to face before COVID, we would do it in our office. And it was just such for me, it was one of those moments when you meet, you meet your hero.

So I see now that you’ve mentioned it, I can now, yeah, I’ve got a clearer idea. So probably the person that I would. The three people. I’m going to be honest payment and you’re not going to like it because I’m going to say three people. So one of them is Derek Satchell. Have you heard of Derek Satchel?

Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

Yeah. So he’s, you know, the man when it comes to Prosit antics at the Eastman. Yeah. And he’s. He’s someone who I had a number of encounters with. You know, I think.

I think you. Of course.

Thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the first time he looked at my preps, he said, Just quit dentistry and become a hygienist like this. He’s a funny guy. Funny guy. And he’s one of those old school kind of, you know, old school teachers that isn’t shy in just cussing you and take you down a few notches and then bring you back up. So, Derek, Satchel number one, and then probably Mike Wise.

Because I’m amazing.

Because again, I’ve.

Never I’ve tried with.

Him. Well, I’ve never met him, but you know, from a distance I know the guy is obviously well ahead and he just inspires a lot, doesn’t he? And then the last person is Callum Johnson. Have you heard of Callum Johnson? Callum Johnson was the dean of Liverpool Dental School and well, he started off, as I think, Deputy Dean or something like that, or head of head of dental school or something like that. And then he became the dean when we were leaving and he played such a massive influence in my life and I’m sure he knows it because I’ve told him that. And then he became Dean and then became, I think, vice chancellor or something like that. So he just went up the ranks. So he’s a consultant in restorative dentistry and he.

Do you know him well?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Him and his wife, Catherine Fox. Lovely people. They don’t actually live that far.

From going to get him. Get him on my show, man. Get him. Get him on my show.

Did you want me to ask him?

Please.

You know, he’s had and I can honestly say this, he’s not just had an influence on my life. You know, he was a dean of Liverpool Dental School for God knows how many years because he was that charismatic. He’s such an affable guy. He’s such a knowledgeable guy. And he’s also straight laced, straight lined when he needs to be as well. He’s someone that I’ve always kind of, you know, looked at from a distance and thought, what a guy. You know, he’s a he’s a real, you know, influential, aspirational type of person to kind of be like. So he’s probably my last person that I would want as a guest on your show. And God knows how many dentists out there and specialists he would have influenced.

Get him, get him for me, man.

Yeah, I’ll I’ll leave my.

Amazing.

I’ll email him. Did did you ask did you ask at Patel did this question who did he say?

No, this is a new this is a new question. You’re the first. I was the new question. I’m going to I’m going to be asking it from now on.

I was going to say I was interested in Patel. Robbie, what did Robbie say? What did Caleb say? I would have been interested in what those guys said.

You’re the first, but that’s good. We’ve done something. We’ve done a first with. With with your podcast, buddy. Thank you so much for for taking the time to do this. I just think it’s hours of your time.

It’s been 2 hours. I can’t believe it’s been 2 hours.

2 hours long form, real conversation, a lot of editing to make it. Yeah. No, no, no. They. Excellent, buddy. I really, really enjoyed that. Thank you so much for doing that.

Cool, man. It’s been really good. Thank you so much. But it’s been an absolute pleasure and honour.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

And don’t forget our six star rating.

I’ll be honest, sometimes I think people are focussed on the technology and they’re not focussed with the basics. So I see people using guided and digital and you know, they haven’t got their basics of restorative there. They haven’t got their understanding of how to fabricate the bridge on what’s important in the fabrication of the bridge. They haven’t got their basics of surgery and what you’re trying to achieve correctly. So, you know, there’s a lot of people out there who are focussed on digital and guided and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I do feel that the focus so much into that and they’ve kind of missed out on the basic parts of the surgery and restoration.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

It’s my great pleasure to welcome Pinata George onto the podcast. George I’m going to call it from now on. He’s one of the handful of implant surgeons who are known for full mouth. Known for this eye. Gomer Work. Terri void work transfer of sinus work so that the very high level restorative implant work is a great pleasure to have you. But I want to get to your backstory first because someone like you, you know, people look at someone like you and I was scrolling through your Instagram today and it’s just like it’s a different world to the dentistry that I know. And you sometimes forget that, you know, that person started out as a dental student just like the rest of us. And, you know, you built into that into that world. But do you remember the first time that you considered dentistry as an option?

Well, actually, it wasn’t. I had actually started off as medicine, and in my first year I swapped to dentistry. My dad say, Yeah, my dad’s a cancer surgeon, a plastic breast surgeon. And he he kind of pushed me towards medicine. So I actually started off doing medicine and then I had a little bit of a moment of truth where, you know, I was kind of doing the degree for my dad’s sake. I actually wanted to be a priest, to be honest. I didn’t I didn’t want a priest or an artist. I didn’t want to do anything. And it was my mom who convinced me. Priest Yeah. Priest Yeah, I was quite I was quite a deep Christian, Orthodox. Christian Yeah, yeah. So I was quite deep in my thoughts as a youngster. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of went to the side and then started off in medicine. And then I kind of had a moment of truth where we didn’t, me and my, my brother and I didn’t really see much of my dad growing up and he was working long hours. It was quite a hierarchical kind of system that he was in. There was a lot of work for very little reward, So I decided I didn’t really want that lifestyle, especially if I had kids myself. So I kind of moved on to dentistry. It was quite a kind of a similar profession. A lot of reward for the hard work. Yeah, and I started off as a dental student like us all, really.

So did you have to reset even year one?

No, no, no. So I got into a couple of places in medicine. I got into Liverpool in medicine, and I was able to transfer to dentistry without a problem. Back then, the first two or three years were literally exactly the same for medicine and dentistry. We shared a lot of the lectures together and there wasn’t much difference. And there was, I think there was a number of people who swapped over either from dentistry to medicine and vice versa. So it’s quite a fairly.

Was it a difficult decision?

No, no, no, no. And even now, I mean, I was in a party over the weekend. Yeah, even even now I look back thinking what a mistake that would have been if I had done medicine. I mean, I look at my friends and I see the slog that they have to do as medics and the amount of hard work that they have to do. Don’t get me wrong, I think the degree dentistry as a degree is a harder degree than medicine. I’m talking about undergraduate degrees. Yeah, but actually, once you’ve done your undergraduate degree as a dentist, you’re kind of free and open to do what you want, obviously within within limits. But for medics, that’s where their life starts. Once they’re finished, their their undergraduate degree, they are literally starting their medical career at that point. And it’s another, what, eight years minimum or ten years, you know, maybe longer if you’re if you’re Max Fox. And yeah, that’s not what I wanted.

But I can understand now you saying that. But at the time, did you not feel like you were letting your dad down or, you know, this pressure to go into it in the first place. Yeah. And then getting out of it so quickly should not feel like you were. Did you get a backlash from your parents or.

No, No, no, no, no, not at all. I think my dad still regrets I didn’t do medicine. I think he kind of hoped that I’d go into Max FACS, But then I think you get to a certain age. My dad got to that age where he looks back at his career and he thinks in terms of benefits and costs and advantages and disadvantages, what he’s achieved, I mean, he’s achieved he’s achieved a hell of a lot in this career, especially as we were from India. He’s not from India. He came over not knowing the English language. He had to learn the language when he came over to do the what was called the lab exam back then, and then start off as a junior doctor in quite a middle age kind of. Rare for him. He was already middle aged. Sorry, and start from the bottom again and I think he may have some regrets about that. I don’t know. I’ve never really spoken to him about it, but I had no regrets. And I don’t think at this point now, my my father feels that I’ve have made the wrong decision. I think he he knows I made the right decision. So I’m quite happy with that.

Well, you are now now looking now looking at your career, of course. Did you guys come from Goa?

No, we came from Kerala.

Kerala? Oh, nice.

Yeah. Yeah. So I actually came over when I was about, I think maybe about seven or something. Six, seven. And then we stayed here for a few years. I couldn’t obviously I didn’t know English. Yeah. And then we had to go back to India for boarding school. That didn’t work out. And then we came back again and started off in, I think, the final year primary. So yeah, came over.

You moved to London at the time?

No. So when we came over, we first started off in Ireland, then Scotland, then the Northeast, and then travelled around a bit and then we settled in London in Southall.

Life of a doctor’s family, isn’t it, back then.

Exactly.

Lots of moving around. Yeah. So. So you grew up mainly in Southall?

Yeah, exactly. I mean, and when we did settle, it was in Southall, which you know, was Little India at the time. It’s kind of still is, but I think a lot of Indians have kind of got out as they’ve achieved a higher wealth status or social status, they’ve kind of and then each successive immigrant populations kind of moves into Southall. I think even when we were there, we had, you know, the Somalians move in, Sudanese move in, and now I think it’s Eastern Europeans who moved in. Yeah, although I’ve not been south for a long time. I’d like to go, but I’ve not been in a long time.

So do you think that the fact that you’ve gone into surgery has something to do with the fact that you left medicine and your dad’s a surgeon?

No, definitely, definitely not. It was just coincidental. So I kind of I was in I was actually into restorative dentistry. So I was working in restorative dentistry. I was teaching restorative dentistry. I did an MSC in restorative dentistry at the Eastman. And then I went back to Liverpool to teach undergraduates and some postgraduate trainees. And then I started off in a general hospital, district hospital, doing restorative dentistry for oncology patients. And I was in this kind of funny scenario where I was doing pre prosthetic surgery for implants, but I was the one in the room doing the surgery and I was showing the restorative consultants the surgery and I was showing the Max FACS can consultants do surgery in the operating room. But then I wasn’t classed as a consultant, which I found quite frustrating. So if I wanted to do something, they would the nurses would then look towards the consultants. So I thought I’d go back and do surgery, oral surgery. So I went off and I went off and did oral surgery and that kind of it kind of grounded my implant work, to be honest, because it implants. Implant ology really is a mixture of restorative dentistry and oral surgery. So I kind of ticked that in my view, I kind of ticked those boxes. So, you know, I’ve done the Amnesty and restorative and did some training restorative. I did a doctorate in oral surgery and did specialist training at all surgery. And I had this like MSC in implants in the middle of it all. So that for me, kind of that was enough for me professionally. I had I had kind of I’m satisfied with that now.

So back back then, those that was kind of the people were going with training because there wasn’t much else. Right? There weren’t these courses like the courses you are now. But what would you tell someone who wants to get into it now? Would you tell them to do the kind of things that you did, or would you tell them to sort of find a mentor or do courses? Weekend courses? Yeah, courses. Which way? Which way would you or would you say both?

You know, I think because I get asked that question like a lot, like maybe every week at least if not. Yeah, if not a couple of times a week, I get asked that same question and it really, it’s really dependent on what you want. So for me, you know, I did a doctorate and training in oral surgery, not just because of the implant ology thing. I had other reasons why I was doing it. I had quite a significant neck injury and because of that neck injury, I was told, you know, I shouldn’t be working to the same levels and rates as I was working before the neck injury. So to take time out and I thought, you know, I could take time out and do a research degree and do some training with it at the same time. But if you want those letters, if you want, you know, letters after your name, if you want formal training, the. You’ve got to go and do formal training. But if you want to be a generalist and you know, I look, I look up to my colleagues who are, you know, really more or less the specialist generalists, and you don’t want to commit to doing three years full time training or, you know, research degree at a doctorate level, then don’t do it.

You don’t need it for, you know, high level implant ology work. You don’t need to do all of that to be able to do advanced and complex procedures. It’s not it’s not required. But if you do want to get trained to that higher level, you do what letters then yeah, of course you’ve got to go off and do the course. You’ve got to go off and do full time training, but it’s certainly not necessary for complex implant ology. There are other ways and actually I’d probably say the same thing for all specialities out there, with the exception of maybe max vacs, you know, even within oral surgery or restorative dentistry or orthodontics or periodontist or ended ontex, you know, to become a specialist. Yes, of course you do a number of years full time and you get some letters. But that doesn’t mean it’s the only way of attaining that specialist level kind of work. Yes, you may not be classed as a specialist, but you’ll certainly get training to a specialist level because, yeah, it’s a difficult question.

I think, you know, we put specialists on a pedestal, we put we put letters after your name on a pedestal. But you know as well as I do that not all master’s programs are equally.

Yeah.

And you know, I’ve spoken to people who’ve been on master’s programs in all sorts of different disciplines who said that it was very disappointing the level of education and the level of experience they got out of them. And then I’ve heard the opposite as well. You know, I’ve heard people say that their career would never have been where it’s gotten to without the master’s program. And sometimes, I mean, I was talking to heart him, you know, Heart Graffy the periodontist.

Yeah, I know. How so. Yeah, he’s a lovely guy. Yeah.

And and, you know, he was he was going through what his course is period courses about. And, you know, if someone, someone who’s really on it, let’s say you want to get into perio and let’s say you go on a course like his, I’m sure there are others as well, but you go on a course like his, it’s someone who’s who’s putting down the very most important. I’m sure it’s a similar thing with your implant courses. You’ve got the very most important bits of knowledge and thinking and treatment planning in that course. You might think that in that sort of very practical, more practical orientated course, you could get more out of it than from an average MSC that you go to.

I think I think it’s difficult for me. I did the courses, the MSC and Doctorates, where it did ground me, and I was taught by very good people. And without those people, I wouldn’t be where I am and I’m eternally grateful to those people. But you’re right, there are other courses out there that may not fulfil what you would expect, but it’s not just also down to the teachers of the course, it’s also down to the students as well. There were people on the same course as me and you get what you put in. Absolutely, you really do. So there’s that aspect as well in terms of the courses that had him and, you know, myself and other people put out there, you know, those courses. I mean, I’ll put out there because we feel we’re educating colleagues to certain aspects that maybe we weren’t taught or think certain things aren’t taught in a certain structured way, or you will only get taught it if you’re doing a formal structured course. And that may be may not be what your average colleague wants. You know what? Even with my own courses, my own course, sorry, even my own courses, I wouldn’t say they’re the only course out there.

And I did a social media post about it recently. I don’t feel my course is the only course out there. I think if you’re going to study a subject, you know, whether it’s Periodontist and the Don techs, whether that’s on specialist training or not, you know, it’s a lifelong learning. You know, I’m constantly learning. I know a number of colleagues of mine who are specialists in prose or endo perio. You know, their specialist training was literally their beginning. And after their trainings where they learnt more, they refined their knowledge more. And I don’t think there is any one course out there or one qualification or one specialist training programme out there that will fulfil everything. It really is down to what you put in and going on a number of courses and I think there are some courses that should be avoided. There are definitely some courses that should be avoided. That goes without saying. And funny enough, I put a social media post about that as well recently. And I think I think people thought I had this agenda. With regards to that, I put a post that way.

I read that.

But that’s when you if you’re.

Learning different people.

Yeah, different people from different you know, they’re from different backgrounds, they’re being sponsored by different implant companies to, you know, from the guys that I get sponsored by, I get sponsored by Strawman and, and, and by Horizons. And I think people. People question was there their agenda and there wasn’t you know, people said, well, how can you recommend these? I can’t remember how many people are recommended. How can you recommend these guys and not anybody else out there? And, you know, the question was, don’t you have to go on every single course before you can recommend? And my point was, well, you know, if if you’re going to a restaurant or a hotel, you know, you’re not going to go to every single hotel before you make a recommendation. You make a recommendation because you’ve experienced that particular hotel restaurant, course, you know, whatever it is, because you’ve experienced it. And and those guys that I’ve mentioned, I know their courses, I know the content of their courses, I know their knowledge, I know their background, and I know their ethics, their principles. I know a hell of a lot about them. And, you know, there wasn’t anything else other than that. But I think as a profession, we always like to think there’s there’s another ulterior kind of agenda here or motive here or, you know, I think you can’t go on one course. You have to go on multiple courses. And yes, I may not have named every single course provider out there, but that’s not to say I don’t recommend them. It’s just that I know these guys and these are the guys that I recommend. And it was literally off off my head. There wasn’t anything else. I’m sure there are people that I may have missed out on that list as well, and I hope they don’t take offence to it. It was just I think we get very sensitive these days when it comes to social media. I think that’s the problem. Sometimes I feel like I should just shut up and not speak.

But look, I think.

I kind of like the controversy a.

Little bit. You actually said in the Post, you actually said off the top of my head, you said those those words off the top of my head. Did I? You did.

I can’t even remember.

And and, you know, people get sensitive, don’t they? I mean, I don’t know if the guy said to you, do you have an agenda? Did he have his own course? And he felt his course was better than, you know, these things happen. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t worry too much about about it. But what you said about doing more than one course, it’s so true. Even in in our area with just composite dentistry, I always, you know, routinely tell people to go on to as many course as possible because, you know, we do we do a course. But but that’s one opinion and one way of looking at it, one type of material. So in your world, it would be one type of implant or whatever. Yeah. If you’re going to do something every day like dentists with composite, every single patient every single day, it makes sense to go on 12 courses if you want to really know what’s going on. So I do I do understand what you say. Yeah. I’m interested in what you said before, that the reason for that comment was that you’d come across something bad in. Of course, I don’t want you to tell me which course it was, obviously. But what would you come across?

Oh, to be honest, I mean, like, I can’t. There are so many courses out there that I’ve seen snippets of not the actual course, but the course provider. And I see their cases on social media. And sometimes if I’m in the mood, I’ll question the clinical aspect of it and other times I don’t. In the past, maybe about seven, eight years ago, I used to come in all guns blazing and start critiquing cases online, which you know what? That was just that was not the right thing to do, to be honest. It was just me being very cocky. But these days, you know, there’s so many aspects out there. You know, it’s even today I saw a course provider, someone who teaches for lunch, and he’s put out a case on social media. And you can see the transition line of this flat. So when the patient smiling, I can see where the where the bridge finishes and whether the real gums meet the bridge while the patient is smiling. Not to me. That’s that’s not the best case to highlight. And obviously, you’re really, really going to highlight your best cases on social media unless you’re pointing out the mistakes that you’ve made.

So there’s there’s loads of aspects on full arch and implant ology out there. And, you know, there’s no point me kind of pointing to one course or, you know, what kind of problems I’ve seen. I think the other aspect is a lot of colleagues will attend courses without actually knowing the background of the speaker and their knowledge base. So it then becomes, you know, a kind. Of a watered down course because that person would have learnt from someone. He’s learnt it for a number of years. He’s now teaching on a course. You know how I would question the one not just competency, but I’d question the insight and reflection of that speaker because how many complications has he seen? How does he know what he’s teaching is going to work long term? I think there’s a responsibility from the Speaker, but also from the participant of these courses to kind of research the speaker of their course and how experienced they are. But in what Hayhoe is what it is, I can’t change much about it.

The thing is, you can’t get experience without making mistakes, right? I think it’s one of those things that absolutely. And we all start somewhere, even as teachers, as educators. Yeah, we all start somewhere. So it’s a difficult one. I grant you, in an area like yours, though, I do see why you’d be more concerned about that than in an area like mine, for instance. You know, you’ve got potentially you could have, you know, you could blind someone, could you, with one of those good one of those long implants you stick in the in. Yeah. So all right, let’s, let’s move on. Let’s move on to your actual day to day because you work in lots of different practices. You kind of visit them. Is that right?

Payman, You’ve done your research well, haven’t you? Like like before we came on, you knew where I qualified from and you know a little bit about my background. That’s quite surprising, seeing as we’ve not really crossed paths and you’re not really in a kind of a similar field to me. So But yeah, you’re right. I kind of What’s the, what’s the proper term?

Peripatetic.

Yeah, peripatetic. I’m sure some people just say pathetic, but yeah, peripatetic, which means I tend to travel around. Although in saying that although I travel around, I do own my own practice. Oh, so I have my own practice in North Wales. A lot of people don’t know that. I only work there half a day a week and the only other practice I tend to work regularly every week is dental excellence with Robbie. Robbie, he’s. Yeah, I think you guys know Robbie Hughes.

Yeah, I had Robbie on the show.

Oh, did you? I didn’t realise that. So he, he came before me, got damage.

He was episode number six or something, 16 or so. It’s one of the biggest listened to episodes that we’ve ever done.

Well, to be fair, I can imagine that Robbie is a very charismatic guy. He’s a he’s a he’s a lovely guy and he’s well experienced clinician. And, you know, we went to university together. I think it was a couple of years below me. But so those are the two kind of practices that I kind of regularly attend to every week. And otherwise I’m here. They’re in everywhere. So Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, I kind of travel around, but but my my work is only limited.

But how does it work as far as consultation?

So it’s so it’s interesting. I only work with either what I call what I define. And I know everyone has their own opinion on this. I’m sure this will cause a little bit of controversy, but I will only work with what I would classed as a proper implant ologist. And you can ask me what that means in a sack or a specialist. So either a specialist in prose perio or oral surgery or something. Yeah, some sort of specialist. So I’ll only work with those two types of clinicians or colleagues. So because I’m only working with those two types of colleagues, I’m more than happy for them to do the consultation because they will be more than experienced enough to handle the consultation, liaise with me if there’s any medical issues or or other issues or factors that may complicate the treatment, and then I’ll come and do the surgery with them and then leave.

Okay. But who makes the plan? Both of you or them?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we both make the plan generally. It’s generally me defining that plan because they’re going through a mentoring process. So that mentoring process means that, you know, I’ve got to allow them to, to learn from the plan and for me to point out any mistakes and, and how to rectify those mistakes or give them feedback, and then we’ll come to an agreement of of the plan. And they need to understand why that plan is that way. But yeah, it’s both of us making the plan.

So what you said you sit with CT scans and photos and x rays and and talk about the consultation the guy just did.

So essentially the way it works is even before seeing a CT scan, I want to see the patient’s psych assessment or what we call psych assessment. Which is a kind of a, um, like a, I don’t know how many pages it is, but it’s, it’s a number of questions. It’s a number of questions that the patients would have to go through. And I want to see the results of that before the medical history, before the social history, before the scan, CT scans, photos. I don’t want to waste my time on going through a hell of a lot of information. If I know from the beginning that this patient is, you know, expectations aren’t realistic or, you know, they’ve got some sort of issue with anxiety or something like that. So I want to see that score first before I even consider them as a patient.

So you think that you’ve got this five page thing that can actually give you a map psychologically of whether that were whether or not the patient is suitable?

Yeah.

So what kind of questions does it.

Oh, exactly. You know, it’s it’s they’re quite simple, straightforward questions. So does, um does Slate’s or health kind of questionnaire there there’s the modified dental anxiety score questionnaire which is quite straightforward. There’s a questionnaire from general practice, general medical practice, which is to do with anxieties and stresses and other things like that. And then there’s a dental questionnaire, which I’m more concerned with, which is more to do with expectations. So, for example, do you think implants lasts forever? You know, and you’ll be surprised how many patients think implants lasts forever. Yeah. Or for example, do you think implants are indestructible, You know, and there’ll be patients out there that will think implants are indestructible. And, you know, a lot of these patients will answer yes, and that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. But then it’s highlighted, you know, their level of, I suppose, knowledge of what they think implants do. And then that needs to be clarified. And if they don’t accept the fact that implants on average may last 10 to 15 years or, you know, they certainly don’t always last forever or they’re not indestructible, things will break, you know, things like that if or for example, you know, they’re able to come to appointments, they’re flexible to attend for appointments. You know, if they’re if they’re accepting with all of this stuff, then fine. But if after the questionnaire they’ve ticked, yes, implants last forever, then the colleague or clinician says implants don’t last forever. Are you okay with that? And they say, no, I’m not okay with it. Well, then they’re not suitable.

Fair enough. Yeah, I get it.

You know, or or they’re not accepting of the fact that implants are not indestructible. They can break, they can ship, they can get loose. If they’re accepting of it, then great. If they’re not accepting of it, then they’re not a patient for me.

And what about just the anxious patient? Are you saying that you won’t treat someone who’s anxious about.

It’s not that I won’t treat them so. On the modified dental anxiety score. Sometimes patients, depending on what we’re doing, may actually need a general anaesthetic. They may not be suitable for single drug midazolam or, you know, and I also offer multi drug sedation. And they may not be suitable for multi drug sedation either, in which case they do need general anaesthetic. So then we have access to general anaesthetic, but that is a completely different fee associated if we’re going to do things on the. And it also means if they’re that anxious and they get a complication, you know, are we going to take them back to G? No. So it becomes quite difficult. Recently I had a, I had a young girl referred from a very, very prominent implant dentist, you know, very capable. He he’s very competent in all types of implant ology, very skilled. He referred a young girl to me and as soon as she came in, my colleague who was seeing her for the console because he works in Manchester, gave me some red flags. So I said, okay, that’s fine. Thanks for giving me the heads up. I then did my own consultation with her. This girl’s 18, her mum’s a nurse and her mum wanted to be in a Zoom consultation with me and I said no. So I ended up having a chat with this girl and I asked her would she be okay because of her anxiety that we may end up aborting because I’ve never treated her before. And you know, it was a bit questionable. So that was red flags for me. She wasn’t accepting of the fact that her anxiety may not be suitable for just single drug midazolam. And if she went, you know, a little bit off wire with the single drug midazolam, I’ll I’ll end up having to abort the surgery. I’ve never had to abort. But she needs to know that that’s always a possibility. And that was an accepting for her. So it was as simple as, Nope, I can’t treat you. Unfortunately.

I get it.

So, you know, things come about and it’s not it’s not me trying to be horrible. I’m here to help patients out, but I’m also here to do things properly and safely. And, you know, the more experience you get, you become less forgiving with. Well, you become less flexible, there’s less compromise. You do things by the book and, you know, that’s how you get more success because you’re doing things by the book.

So you’re sitting you’re sitting with the other dentist, the implantable digital specialist. The psych assessments come in positive. Now you’re sharing CT scans, X-rays, examinations, photos. And how how is that process take you? Is it like a quick discussion? Is it an hour? How long does it take to go from you’ve never met this, you’ve never even seen a single thing about this patient to you’ve got a treatment plan that you’re happy to then go in and treat.

So I suppose it depends on the experience level of the.

Depends on the situation, right? Well, actually.

Not always, to be honest. Payman it it really depends on the experience level of the mentee and how where they are at their stage. So I’ve got some mentees who are, you know, they’re good to go. I don’t really need to do much. Even when I come to mentor them, they they are really using me there as sometimes I question why I’m there. I’m literally sitting in the corner, actually, to be honest, Payman for some mentees, I’m not even in the room. I’m in the building. That’s how confident I am with their ability. But they want me in the in the building somewhere, just in case, I think for their own comfort until they build things up to a certain level. And then for other mentees, I am literally holding their hands, not even holding their hands, holding their fingers while they’re doing the work. Now you have to remember it’s very unlikely for that to happen to that level because generally the people that I’m working with already at a certain level of experience, so I’m not having to really handhold, I’m kind of really showing them finer details at that point of, of how I would approach a case. Yeah, but the planning, the planning for all of these guys will take more than 40 minutes, half an hour. They’re all at a certain level and I think that’s the difference with me. So I, I have a mentee requirement and it’s all my mentees, like I said, have to be either a proper implant ologist or a specialist.

Yeah.

So, you know, if they’ve met that kind of level, I’m doing very little schooling. In some ways. There’s already a certain level of understanding.

But it’s still it’s still it’s still making my palms sweaty, though. Yeah. That you’ll come in and do such a massive operation on a patient you’ve never met. And I get it. I get it. You’ve done this for long enough. That you know that the mentees and your process is there to to take care of all the different bits. But do you not worry that sometimes someone’s missed something and you’re you’re going to be the one who pays the price for that?

You know, that’s a really good point. But payment. The other thing is you’re absolutely right. So for me to come in, never having met this patient and do some pretty invasive surgery, what what do you think that tells you about my success rate and complication rate?

Yeah, the process is kind of, well, well trodden. It’s a well, well thought out process. Yeah.

Yeah. So I get very little. I shouldn’t really say this word right now. I get very little complication rates and very little failures. So in so I’ve only had, for example, with psychometrics, I’ve only had one case fail. That’s it. And I do a good number every month. I’m not just doing one, I do a good number every month. And I’ve only had one fail since I’ve been doing psychometrics and that that was the case for maybe four years ago. And that was a very complex case with complex medical history and I would do things very differently. So I’ve learnt from that. But other than that, I’ve had very little complications and I’ve not had a case fail. Very little problems post-op and years later. So as long as things are met and there’s very little flexibility with me, I’ve not really had a problem. The other thing is that I choose my patients very well. So it’s not just a psych assessment. You know, the medical history needs to be a certain level. Their social history needs to be at some level. You know, I don’t treat smokers, for example, which is I know it’s a big thing for people out there, but hey, ho, that’s that’s my kind of requirement. If somebody else wants to treat them, that’s up to them. There’s no certainly no criticism from me.

I think smokers are often the ones who need this treatment, isn’t it?

You know what? You say that if that was true, then I would be treating smokers because I wouldn’t have any work. I think in certain areas colleagues are pushed to treat smokers because otherwise there may not be enough work out there. But certainly the cases that I do, if a patient smokes, they have to quit smoking. They have to choose between their teeth and function and all of that, or the fags one or the two. There’s no compromise with me when it comes to that, because, you know, when you’re doing these kind of complex treatments, you can’t have you can’t afford to have any complications. You know, the complications can be significant. So the patients have to be on board. If they’re not on board, then I don’t treat them. It’s as simple as that. I probably say no to God knows how many patients a year.

But how long, how long before surgery you have? Do they have to give up? Is it a long time or is it not?

Yes. They have to give up a minimum of three months minimum, and they have to permanently give up. It’s not just quit for three months after the surgery, a few months later, and then they can start smoking again. They have to permanently quit now if they lie to me. I can’t do much about that.

What about other other sort of health complications, systemic complications? I don’t know. Is it diabetes? That sort of thing must affect it.

Yeah, absolutely. So again, for diabetics. So so again, it’s not just smoking. There’s diabetics, people with autoimmune diseases, you know, a whole bunch of things. So, you know, patients on anticoagulants or antiplatelets, there’s a there’s a whole bunch of medical problems for all of.

Them, and they.

All have to be stable before I treat them, all of them without fail. So, for example, diabetics, they I have to see their HBA one C score before I’ll treat them. And then that score has to be within a good level, not an okay level. It has to be at a good level. And if it’s not at a good level, I won’t treat them. I need to see evidence that they have a good HBA one C score. And then also I do my own blood payment, so I’ll do a full range of bloods and my blood tests are not like the NHS, GP blood tests, they are full range and I’m talking about everything. So I’m talking about, you know, testosterone, I’m talking about vitamin D, I’m talking about, you know, various different types of hormones. So it’s not just the faeces under liver function, kidney function, it’s not just those standard tests, but it’s literally everything you can test for. So I’ll do my checks if I’m not sure about a patient.

Amazing. But the work itself, but it’s sort of hairy work here for the likes of us. I don’t even like blood, but I wasn’t. I wasn’t even the type of dentist you used to take out. Difficult wisdom teeth or even easy wisdom teeth. You’re looking at the work and you see it. You see the sort of, you do think guided sinus lifts and you’re so nice sometimes you correct me if I’m wrong, you bring an implant through the sinus. Yeah, right.

So you really have done some research on me, haven’t you? Like guided sinus grafts and things like that?

Yeah, it’s mind blowing for someone like me too.

So you know what, though, To be honest, Payman like you say that, But actually, any anything you do for the first time is difficult, you know? And I see, you know, you talk about the stuff you’re involved with, composites. I actually think that’s a harder job than sometimes the stuff I do. You know, I look at the work Robbie does and the guys in the practice, you know, Craig does. So I’m having dental treatment right now by Craig, who also works in in dental excellence. And it’s not just Robbie. I look at the stuff Kailash does because I know Kailash really well and he does things slightly different, but similar level and all these guys doing composites out there and I’m like, I couldn’t cope with that, you know? And because it’s because anything you do for the first time is going to be difficult. And I think that type of work is just as difficult, just as complicated. And often it’s management of the patient, not actually the work. The dentistry is the dentistry. You know, it’s actually managing the patient and their personality and their expectations and their wants and desires and telling them what can be achieved and what can’t be achieved. That’s actually the harder bit. True, The actual surgery itself, you know, I personally don’t think is that difficult, to be honest. And that’s, you know, sinus graft, psychometric steroids for larch, single implants, soft tissue grafting, bone grafting, all of it. You know, if you follow the structure, you follow the plan. It’s actually pretty predictable stuff. So I don’t think the dentistry is hard. I think it’s everything else that that makes it difficult.

So do you visit all these different practices? You must see best practice. And I guess sometimes you see worse practice.

And I don’t Payman I don’t see worse practices because the guys I work with are all really slick guys and their practice.

I get.

It. I really I get it practices. But in the past, yeah.

You learn one thing from Robbie and then you learn a different thing from the next guy. I mean, not everyone’s got Robbie set up, right? And it must, it must be, it must be a real education, getting all these different sort of points of view. But the question of the nurse, do you take your nurse with you.

Yeah. I take I sometimes I do because I get a free ride with my nurse so she’ll drive the car, take me to the practice so I can get to snooze in the car. But these days, no, not really. Because, you know, I’m so busy doing so generally after work, I’ll go out for food somewhere. I love eating. I just. I could eat all day, honestly. Yeah. So I tend to work just so I can eat. So I don’t tend to take my nurse with me. I’ll go out there, do the job, and then go somewhere to eat or meet up with mates afterwards. Dentistry for me right now, payment in my level. At my stage of my career, I kind of do it because I. I really enjoy working here, not enjoy working. I enjoy the work. It’s it’s really enjoyable.

Doesn’t it piss you off having to use different nurses who don’t know the way that you do your stuff?

I love I love the nurses. And you know what? The the work that I do, the nurses love it. They honestly, you know, because most of these nurses are implant nurses.

Uh huh.

But as in, do I get annoyed because they may not know what to do and stuff?

Yeah.

To be honest, no. If anything, I’m happier than nurses are nursing than than the guy or girl that I’m mentoring. Because generally the mentees are crap at nursing. And because they’re not nurses, the nurses are generally on the ball. You know, I don’t think I’ve ever again, I’m not working with junior nurses or trainee nurses. They’re they’re often quite experienced nurses, if not, the most experienced nurse in the team is the implant nurse and they’re generally on the board. Generally, you know, I work with an amazing nurse called Leanne in Dental Excellence, and she was so she was doing full arch implants before me. So I started well, I was doing full arch implants with a guy called Eva Dental. I don’t know if you’ve heard of. I’m sure you would have heard of you very dental. And so this was in 2000, I think it was 2012. So this is ten years ago now. And Leanne was a nurse then as well as I’d been working with Leanne ten years ago. She’s now at Robby’s place and she was trained by Veejay. And if anyone knows Veejay, you know, you’ve got to like the nurses needed to have really thick skin to put up with V.J. So I work with her in dental excellent. My, my own nurses in my practice also, they’re amazing nurses because they’ve got to put up with my nonsense and the nurses in all these other practices elsewhere. If anything, I really feel for them because they’re quite nervous when I come along and I can see the nerves in them and they’re really good nurses, like amazing nurses. So I’m generally really happy with with the nursing support.

So tell me this, but the technology is moving forwards all the time. Yeah. So I imagine what you’re doing today is very different to what someone would have done ten years ago. As far as you know, Digital’s really taken a how do you keep abreast of what’s going on? Best practice. And you know, when you’re that at the tip of the spear, I guess internationally there are people who you look up to or whatever. But how do you how do you or are you constantly improving your own process? And where do you see that line between the sort of the risk of trying something new yourself and the medicolegal nightmare that we’re all in?

Yeah, that’s that’s really interesting that you say that, because sometimes I wonder what I’m doing myself to try and keep keep ahead. And it’s really difficult, isn’t it? Technology is moving, but sometimes I’ll be honest, sometimes I think people are focussed on the technology and they’re not focussed with the basics. So I see people using guided and digital and you know, they haven’t got their basics of restorative there, they haven’t got their understanding of how to fabricate the bridge on what’s important in the fabrication of the bridge. They haven’t got their basics of surgery and what you’re trying to achieve correctly. So, you know, there’s a lot of people out there who are focussed on digital and guided and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I do feel that the focus so much into that and they’ve kind of missed out on the basic parts of the surgery and restoration. But yeah, I mean it’s difficult isn’t it? I mean I was doing guided and digital planning, you know, way back before it became quite popular and I was using cadre in America and their labs and shipping it over after sending them the DICOM and CBC because no one was doing it in the UK at that point. But now you know, everyone’s doing it.

Digital is great, but it’s good. You know, in certain scenarios we know that. We don’t know if it’s 100% in every scenario, and that’s mainly when it comes to full artwork, especially the psychometrics and terror grade stuff where there’s much higher risk. And I also think it’s certainly not there for bone grafting and gum grafting, that’s for sure. Although bone grafting, it’s kind of, you know, getting certain aspects are there’s some certain benefits with digital, with with bone grafting, but with full arch stuff where the risks are a bit higher. You know, I’m still dabbling myself. So the guys in Chrome Chrome guided. We had set off to do our first guided psychometrics, but I suppose that’s a little bit under wraps right now. So I can’t talk too much about that. So it’s still kind of up in the air. But up until at this current point, the likes of Zynga, Matic’s and Terra needs to be honest and try and sign us, to be fair. And I won’t be advocating fully guided. Not as of yet. Not until I’ve tried it out myself and worked it out. And and I don’t think there’s anyone out there who’s done fully guided psychometrics anyway to give an opinion. Navigation is different.

Would you do actually print prints the maxilla?

Yeah. Well.

And then build something around.

Well, you wouldn’t necessarily print the maxilla. You could kind of set the guides according to your scan and DICOM. From what you have, it’s a little bit complicated because it also depends on the, the technique your, your you’re going to use for psychometrics. And, you know, we talk about technology coming in. You know, actually the biggest thing when it comes to full arch and psychometrics and terror guides and trance sinus and all of this kind of stuff is actually the surgical technique has changed vastly over the years. And that’s what’s made the difference. It’s not the the guided stuff or digital stuff. The actual surgery has changed.

In what.

Way? And the risks of surgery has changed. So, for example, just as an example triggered, implants in the past were placed almost to the base of your skull. That’s how long they were. So they would use psychometric implants in the Terra region because there were no Terra guide implants back then. And that’s a very, very high risk kind of procedure. But now thyroid implants, you know, they’re specially designed. We’re aiming for just the terra bone and not the terra gold and spheroid bone. So it’s much safer. Yes, there are still risks, but it’s much safer because we’re not drilling right up to the base of the skull. Psychopathic, same thing. You know, there’s always that risk of hitting the eye that you joked about when we first spoke. But actually, if you follow the technique and you can see exactly where you’re going and you reflected a flap, a nice clean flap, and you can see exactly where you’re drilling into, you’re not going to do that damage. Yes, complications can happen, but you’re not going to do that damage. You know, the implants are much better now, so they’re smaller and narrower, so there’s less drilling. And because there’s less drilling, there’s less surgery times, the less complications. We’re avoiding the sinus now altogether. So we’re not getting problems with sinusitis, restorative. They were really quite palatal and now they’re not palatal. So from a restoration point of view, they’re much better. So there’s a whole heap of changes to the implant itself, the technique itself and things are constantly progressing. I am interested in the guided stuff. It’s not that I’m not interested, I just want to try it out first before I can give an opinion on it.

I noticed you’ve got Ricardo Kern teaching for you or with you, is it? And you know, the whole soft tissue side of it.

Yeah.

Yeah. I didn’t really appreciate how important soft tissue is to implant ology until I’ve spoken to a few implant ologists on this on, on here. And it’s so interesting that you’re I always used to think of it as the implant bone issue is what the implant is is interested in. But the soft tissue is always the most unpredictable part of it, right.

Um. I don’t know, actually. I mean, soft tissue is a big, big issue. Don’t get me wrong. But actually, it’s certainly more predictable than bone grafting. Really soft tissue grafting is a lot more Yeah, it’s a lot more predictable and successful than than bone grafting, that’s for sure. I think it’s just that it’s only in the past few years that implant dentists have really been looking at soft tissue grafting. You know, they’ve done all the other stuff out there. They’ve done the full arch courses that done the bone grafting courses, they’ve done the sinus grafting courses, and they want to see what else there is out there to refine their technique. And soft tissue is exactly that. It’s that little last bit of refining their technique. And, you know, most implant dentists are not used to using micro surgical instruments and six sutures and 700 sutures. You know, that’s a new challenge for them or maybe a new tool for them to do so. There’s a hell of a lot of popularity when it comes to soft tissue. But I think that’s because it’s a progression thing. So, you know, implants, when you start doing implants, you do the single implants, you do, you know, a couple of implants for small span bridge. You then move on to over dentures.

You then move on to full arch bridges, you know, maybe PHP one type bridges, then bigger implants like Zeiger matic, Terra Guedes type stuff. You know, you’re looking at sinus grafts, block grafts and that soft tissue. The soft tissue work is the bit right at the end, you know. So I think and I think that’s really, really come about now, especially because we’ve got the likes of, you know, you mentioned Kern, who’s great at soft tissue. You know, you’ve got Giovanni Kelly, who I’m a big fan of, and also the likes of Amit Patel in the U.K. You know, it was actually Abbott Patel who taught me soft tissue work. So I was taught soft tissue work the old school way, you know, doing free gingival grafts and, you know, VIP grafts and quite, quite old school techniques. But it’s actually Emett Patel who who kind of got me to open my eyes a little bit into the into the, I suppose, newer techniques with the Kelly style, maybe Ricardo Kern style. And those techniques are a hell of a lot more predictable and easier to do once you’ve got your head around it. It’s, you know, it’s really quite doable. So you get some amazing results with those techniques.

We’ve had Patel on, on, on the podcast. Tell me, tell me this, but where’s the follow up as far as I’m not talking about of course you have to follow up these patients. Yeah, but my, my point is this. That long term follow up often shows you the results of your decisions that you made in the surgery or in the planning or whatever. Do you get to see that? Do you get to see patients that you treated years ago?

Yeah.

And you learn a lot from that.

Absolutely. Yeah, massively. I think that that is where you learn and it goes back to, you know, me making that statement about course providers and how long have they been doing it for? Because if you’ve not been doing it for more than five years, how do you know what you’re doing works? How can you be confident to teach someone what you’re doing works? Because in my opinion, you can’t. And until you see long term results of your work and how you you could have improved based on the work that you’ve done in the past, I don’t think you can. So one of the one good things of being of owning my own practices, I’ve had that practice since 2007. I’ve had that practice, so I’ve seen all my work in that practice for the past, what, 15 years now? So I know what works when it comes to bone grafting. You know, I see what works when it comes to soft tissue grafts. I’ve got my long term kind of results when it comes to full arch, when it comes to psychometrics, when it comes to terra guedes, the prosthetic kind of work that over denture work, soft tissue work, I see all of that regularly, you know, and the patients that come in, we even laugh about it. Now. The old school techniques that I used to do here, where I’m using austere tomes and banging instruments into people’s jaws and cutting out people’s mandibles and chins and, you know, and all this other stuff with old school drills as opposed to pesos and, you know, various things that I used to do to do full arch. Things have changed. And, you know, I’m so grateful in owning that practice because that is where I learn a lot of it’s where I’ve learned from my mistakes in being in that same practice for the past 15 years.

Let’s get. Let’s get to darker moments. Oh, here we go. Not only against them a bit earlier on this podcast, but someone was telling me, I’ve met somebody that weekend. He said, You really enjoy that bit with the darker moments. Yeah. And I kind of do if I’m got you.

Have you paid when you got a really dark side?

For sure. For sure. Tell me. I mean, it’s important we talk about them, right? We learn, we learn from them and we don’t talk about them enough in medicine or dentistry mistakes. Tell me about mistakes you’ve made. It could be an oh, shit moment. It could be a treatment planning mistake. It could be a patient who lost their confidence. And you know that that sort of patient management mistake. Tell me something about mistakes. You must have had your fair share doing the kind of work you’re doing.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast, where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. Don’t forget our six star rating.

Historically, we have been busy running our families, running all the part of our lives rather than the dentistry.

That’s the reason, isn’t it?

It is.

I think it’s partly that partly that there’s a second part that it’s almost like ladies are less likely to to put themselves up somehow. There’s a there’s a modesty or a like for a man to stand up and say, this is what I do and this is the size of my drill. It seems more natural than for some ladies.

Yes. Yes.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Silang.

So I’m with Alonzo. Two dentists. You would have seen their stuff on YouTube. Guys, it’s nice to have you at BC. Is this the first one you’ve done?

Yeah, this is. Yeah, the first. Definitely. Yeah. My first one is all coming to B.C.. I’ve been to a young student event before, but this is my first event. Yeah, that was the first one we ever went to together. First event we ever went to together as a young dentist. If you remember, it was like third and fourth year uni, maybe four years ago. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what’s your reflection like now that you’ve been to the actual main conference? How do you feel about it? It’s a really.

Good fun, really enjoying it. Obviously the trade fair today, the course is yesterday.

Which one did you do?

Yesterday I did two biomimetic posterior composites and smile first in the afternoon. So, yeah, really, really interesting. Learn a lot. I remember when we went to the first BCD event back when we were students. No one else in our group Uni was mentioning this stuff and had gone and this was the first one that we actually went on. We went and it was a day of like amazing lectures and it was so revolutionary for us. And from then on I think that was the first one that kicked off all these events that we started going to, you know, the year after that we went to the London Dentistry, so Dentistry year, we were just constantly gagging for more. And I think.

I quite encouraged students to turn up and really smile over to watch. I mean, even if they don’t know, I don’t want them to pay to actually do the thing. But for me, if a student in their fourth year or something comes and watches that, it puts their career on another trajectory and they see what else is positive possible, you know.

I think the inspiration, like they become inspired by what dentists can actually do. Yeah, and because I imagine a lot of dental students, especially towards the final years, they get so bogged down with exams and revision and lecturers maybe being mean or supervisors being mean that they may even be put off from dentistry, but then come in to events like this or any event.

Really with the positivity of it.

The positivity of it, seeing how happy dentists are actually in person and, you know, communicating with one another and motivating is a big.

Big part of it. So how many years out are you guys now?

I’m two years out. This is my second year as an associate and this is my first year as an associate.

Oh, I see. So you weren’t even the same year graduated?

No, no, no, no. We grew up together, so, yeah, we went to high school. To primary school. Oh, in high school, sixth form. We split up for uni. I took a gap year and he didn’t. Yeah. So that’s why I’m one year behind him.

And where did you study then?

St I’m in Newcastle and I’m from Bristol. Yeah.

Oh so you go to dentist. You wasn’t even you weren’t in the same place at the same time from COVID.

It was really weird because our first year of uploading Ali was in Newcastle, still doing this final year and I was doing my foundation training. So I was in London, he was in Newcastle and he would come down to London for us to record and somehow we managed to upload a video every single week for a whole year with him even being in Newcastle.

The consistency I find with content consistency is the absolute key consistency because because the content will find its own audience, right? The audience that wants to watch YouTube. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a group of people, but they need to every Wednesday night, whenever every time they go for a run or every time whenever their, their particular rhythm is, you need to be there in that rhythm, you know. And I decided to do dental leaders one a week come what may. Yeah yeah. And you know, sometimes it’s a question of we haven’t got an episode, what should we do? And then sometimes they become the most valuable episodes of the whole year because I just sit with him and just talk. Yeah, Yeah. 100%. Did you see any of Frank’s beer? Yeah, I did. What do you think? Was it above your head or did you feel like you could relate to it?

Because as I said, I’m first year associate. No, I could definitely relate to most of it. And I was actually surprising. I was actually thinking, It’s funny you asked me that. I was thinking back to that very first time we went to young dentist and how lost I was as a student compared to how much I actually am now understanding. And also what’s actually above that is I’m also thinking, wow, the more I’m learning, the more I’m learning that actually there’s so much more to learn. Yeah, it’s so, so.

That is, that is dentistry in a nutshell, pardon the pun. But that, that is the more you learn the less you realise how little you know.

You realise how you know. Yes. Just I was, I was noticing how much Doctor Frank’s beer actually he dabbles in so many different things as well and he’s able to understand so many different things from his colleagues.

So experience for me out of the big guns, like the really top guns, maybe there’s like two or three in the world, right? I find him the most accessible, like the most easily understandable, you know, because different people at different stages of their career. Right. So some guys in there are doing full mouth rehabs every day. And then there’s other people like me or you or whoever, you know, who are different level. But out of the big boys, I’ve listened to most of the big boys. I just find him just more accessible, you know? And that’s a. Beautiful thing, man. That’s beautiful. The other thing is that the presentation style. Yeah. You know, Water, bro.

Yeah, I was going to say, he’s got it down to the tee. Yeah, he’s a good speaker. He’s really good at communicating. You can tell, because one sentence flows on to the next and the slide flows on with.

Yeah, yeah.

So smoothly. And I imagine if you open up his PowerPoint, it’s not tense. It’s like hundreds of slides where it doesn’t feel like a 100 slide. How seamless. It’s seamless.

Really? Well, I found that. So you’re not coming tonight to the gala? Yeah. Oh, you’re welcome.

But. Oh, I’ll be here tomorrow for the for the day. And so won’t actually gala will be there.

You’ll enjoy that. You’ll enjoy that look for when they tend to go all out a little bit. Yeah. And, but so I’m going to have you guys on the proper podcast as well. We’d love for sure. Can’t wait because I’ve been watching you guys from a distance for a long time now. Then we finally met on Minibar Maker. That was lovely as well, but we definitely have a full length, long form conversation. So nice to have you guys.

Thank you so much for having us.

I’ve got Chris McConnell, the president who is responsible for all of this from the back. Obviously, again, and I guess this particular event has been driven by.

Ucas this year. So we’re at the ICC in Wales and its 2022 conference. Headline Speaker Frank Spear, who is a massive, massive name in the world of dentistry. And yeah, it’s, it’s a big event in always the venues, big the speakers big delegates numbers are big trade support like yourselves fantastically really big. And yeah, it’s been a lot of hard work to get this through and over the line. I have to say slightly stress this morning, I’m nice and chilled now and it’s lovely to just sit down and have a chat. But it’s been. Yes.

So you know, I guess this kind of event is such a big event that it’s a year in the making in itself, at.

Least for.

At least a year. Right. So when did you have to book Spear? Was it more than a year?

About four years ago. Five years ago, Yeah. So we start quite a few years out. Yeah. Yeah. So this place was booked. Obviously, we’re now 20, 22, so we’re coming off the back of COVID. Yeah. So this was booked I think in 2017, 2018, and it was still being built. Wow. That’s that was a bit of a punt. But as you can see, it’s a great venue and it’s really, really fresh and new. So it’s it’s brilliant. So yeah, so that’s all been in planning for ages. Covid obviously muddle things around a little bit with Edinburgh because Edinburgh should have been the year before. We should have in London last year and all the speakers, everyone got a little bit muddled. But between those because we book everyone but we book everyone, you know, a year or two years ahead in advance. So this year is a kind of a bit of a mash up of what would have been 2021 and 2022.

But I mean, it must be is it only the headliner you have to book that far ahead or everyone does it? Isn’t there a risk of like your you’re perpetuating the same lectures because you don’t you’re working so far ahead, but whoever’s hot, you haven’t you’re not able to put in because you’re working.

Well, this is this is the beauty because we have a great team here. Yeah. And we all go to lots of conferences, lots of lectures, and we’ll keep our pulse, our finger rather on the pulse. And there’s a couple of guys on board who are phenomenal with this, and they really know what’s kind of kicking around, what’s what’s hitting the right mark.

So let’s say mission goes to a conference tomorrow and see someone, some Japanese guy who’s amazing. It’s going to be you’re telling me it’s going to be a minimum of two years. But these guys.

Have booked up Spears booked up for five years. Our speakers booked up 2 to 3 years ahead of time. Just the way we need to plan for it, because obviously we need to market it the year before. So we need to know by September of the year before who’s coming, because we’re putting to print to sell tickets for next year to engage. This is the headline act. So yeah, 18 months is an absolute minimum.

And how about how about the positioning of the conference as far as, you know, the stand at the level I mean, the tension between keeping it simple enough for for a newbie to sort of appreciate and making it complex enough for a veteran that must cross your mind.

All the time. Yeah, it does. And this year, we’ve this is one of the areas that we really wanted to focus on. So the BCD during COVID, everybody’s re-evaluated, haven’t we? So we’ve had time to sit down and look at it. And what we’ve gone is we really want to now have a fresh vision moving forward. And the vision really with the BCD is that we want to be core promoters of ethical cosmetic dentistry. We want to engage with our profession and we want our profession to be engaging in ethical cosmetic dentistry. We’re here to help support here to help educate, and we’re here to help get the message out about how to do things well. And then also we want to engage with the public and make the public aware and go look, ethical cosmetic dentistry is it’s not just, you know, what it’s like people nowadays who just go, Oh, I’ve done whitening, I’ve done six veneers on the front. Here we go. That’s cosmetic dentists. No, it’s not. You need to have the turkey teeth. And turkey teeth has kicked this off this year. So we’re trying to raise awareness with the public as well.

How are you doing that?

Are we doing this through lots of different media channels? We’re building relationships with all the media. But coming back to your point on how do we gauge for every single person? Yeah, we do that with the Thursday event specifically. So what we wanted to do first events are hands on days and there’s lots of different sessions where people can come along and get kind of they really get into the nitty gritty and the learning.

Choose the particular thing.

And that is where you get most of your learning. You know full well when you’re in sitting in a massive lecture theatre, you’re seeing the theatre that’s there. You, you learn, it’s inspirational. Yeah. When you actually doing a hands on this is stuff you learn that you’re going back in on. The next time you’re back in clinic you can implement. And so the first three sessions are really, really important and we have because there’s six seven this year though eight streams, it’s really easy to then cater for different abilities and skill sets. And that’s what we did this year, really focusing on the newbies who are coming in all the way up to, you know, the old farts like me who are going, we want that a little bit more. We want really to have our grey matter challenged. And we had a great session with Chris or Neil, Jerod, Ken Harris, where they were really picking apart cases that you only ever see once because only one ever walks in. And how do you deal with that? And it was great, the interaction. There was quite a lot of people on that one and interaction was fantastic. But you’ve got to be at a certain level to understand where they’re going from. So yeah, so that’s how we, we structure it.

So having, having done a lot of events myself, yeah, that one thing I almost let’s like a wedding or something isn’t it. That one thing I always think of in an event is that there’s going to be something that goes wrong in every event and you’ve got, you’ve got a kind of for me, at every event, when that thing goes wrong, I go, Oh, there it is. There it is. That’s the thing. So what’s gone wrong?

What’s gone wrong? We have managed to deal with everything, all right? We have had challenges. Everyone has challenges.

So what’s gone wrong on this particular one today? Probably give an example to running something this big.

Okay. The biggest one for me that’s really done my head in right is the doors between the theatre and the Trade Hall. They don’t say no, no, they stay open, but people keep going through them. And I’m sitting there moderating Frank’s beer and I have this door that opens and keeps opening closing with Frank Letts. You’re on the stage about 20 metres away, not even that ten metres away, and people coming through, chatting with their coffees. And I’m just I seriously, I was guilty. Am I allowed to swear I lost my shit? I’ve been going on all morning. Lock the door. Lock the door, lock the door. And, and everyone was. And at one point I went right. It got to the point I had to leave my moderating session and I was storming around using different certain emojis on on the WhatsApp, let’s put that way to get the people down and lock the doors. They couldn’t lock them. So then I got I said, Right, well, in that case, if you can’t lock them, then I want someone standing in front of them. So they had someone standing in front of them and then they bug it off and then and it went back to square one. So yeah, for me that was the the biggest headache today.

I was, I was talking about I looked at the, you know, the flag outside that says 18th annual conference and I think I’ve been to 17 of them. Yeah. And you have had a massive part in organising many of those. 17. What’s the difference being the President. Is it, do you feel the burden of that 100%. Is it because you’re the final decision maker? Well.

Look, when I’ve come into this, what I’ve always tried to do is I’ve tried to go, this is a team effort. This is not about I’m keeping the seat warm for a year. That’s all I am. I’m a custodian of the presidency. However, it’s kind of viewed that it’s kind of your conference as president, and so everyone puts that a little bit on you and they get you to make all those little decisions and they kind of almost step back and, well, I’ll let you make that decision. So you’ve got to make a lot more. And yet you do take ownership and you feel quite a lot of attachment to it and it gets quite personal. And so I’ve come here and I’ve gone. I really want everyone to have a great day like this morning. We spent a huge amount of time trying to get emotion in the opening ceremony because for me emotion is critical. If you have emotion, then you feel and you embrace and you become part of. So hopefully with the smoke, the the countdown, the Male voice choir, the very inspirational talk by Colin, it’s this all kind of brings it together. So so that for me is is was really personal but everything running running to clockwork and as it should does should do it never does but you know and gala dinner tonight. I’m glad you’re coming. It’s going to be amazing.

Can you can you when you might as well just tell me because by the time these guys are.

All right, massive big vodka luge. Oh, excellent. Covid safe vodka luge. And it’s going to be epic. Epic. So we’re looking forward to it. Yeah.

Fraser, thank you so much for taking the time. You’re very welcome. I know it’s your busiest day and you’ve taken the time to spend it with me, so.

I’m very appreciative as well.

Thanks a lot for doing it.

There you go. I’m being called back now. Cool, buddy. Thanks, buddy. Okay. Take care.

So this is the best Palmer.

Hey, buddy.

Hey, man. So, right at the end of day three, it’s. You know, I’ve been trying to get you all my podcasts for the last three years. And for some reason, nothing.

I’ve got nothing interesting to say. Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone’s got something interesting. But you just got accredited on this one. Yeah, me through. Why would you want to be accredited?

You know, I’ve been asked that question a few times this weekend.

Yeah.

I guess inspiration came from when I did Krystle’s course back in 2012. Yeah. And he introduced BCD and the accreditation process back then. Yeah. And when I looked at the pathway, I just thought, Oh, this looks pretty exciting. It’s a British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. You know, it’s not so much as just paying a monthly membership fee. And I spoke to James Russell and he said, look, you know, it’s it’s not the destination of getting the accreditation. It’s the journey and the learning, the learning aspects of that journey. So, yeah, once I started, I did. Three cases in one year, and then I got lazy and took a break for a couple of years. And then they emailed me saying, Look, we’re going to change your process, so you might as well stick to the old, old protocol and just hand in your last two cases. So yeah, we’re just sort of finish it off.

And so I guess I get the thing about sort of playing against yourself and, you know, achieving something. But is there more to it than that? Are you going to now market that to patients or do you think patients don’t get that?

I think to from a patients perspective, saying I’m the president of the BCD means. And sounds more than I’m an accredited member. It’s a very personal it’s a very Dental.

I’m sorry to say thank you, but you’re not going to be any time soon.

Being president of anything.

But they’re not many dentists very accredited. So it’s a communication story, right, to patients. You could you could communicate that one of the few dentists, you know what I mean? To me? That it would make sense to also have it as a patient story.

Yeah. Yes. Look, I know loads of dentists who who may not have the wards and these kind of posts behind their name, and they’re very, very successful because from a patient’s perspective, all they’re interested in is are your nice dentists. Are you going to hurt me and are you going to give me the result? I don’t care about the letter of your name and all the rest of it. Sure, this is more of a personal thing, isn’t it? And you know, I started that journey. It’s done now.

What about this? This event would like this particular one. How was Frank Spear? How was how was the education in general for you? To be honest.

Overall education, absolutely fantastic. Provided you control your your alcohol. You take the night.

Before.

In a frank spear world.

Class to speak before.

Yes.

So this was different. I thought.

It was certainly very.

Different.

Very different. I mean, that guy, well, he’s a is restorative trained prostate period. Trained as well. You know, world class, international, well seasoned lecturer is seen it all, done it all. I guess when you when I’ve seen him on other instances, it’s generally full math rehabs you know, reconstruction of advanced bone loss cases, you know, grafting and, you know, proper, proper dentistry.

No.

He is a composite veneer.

Not composer artistry. No.

They’re dealing with man’s dentistry.

Which you’re doing a lot of yourself. Right? You’re doing a lot of full, full mouth cases. Yeah. Do you find that more satisfying than the composite? Well, yes.

One, it’s more stimulating. Is it? Yeah. You mean makes you think a composite? Look, it’s. Yes. You know, when I first started off that was stimulating learning the science behind it. But a lot of it is art. Yeah, it’s very it’s very. There’s a lot of dexterity involved. Yeah. You know, especially for your simple aesthetic cases where function is not a huge. Factor in that case was more of a cosmetic case. When you’re starting to do full math, rehabs, minimal prep veneers or treating patients that are actually, you know, they want minimal prep stuff, that then becomes slightly more challenging.

So I think.

To get to the crux of it. I sometimes say that, you know, you love teeth. You know, you adore dentistry, right. But to get to the crux of what is it about dentistry that you adore? Yeah, because it’s not Emily yesterday who is very, very, very good with composite. And she says that she’d rather not ever do the composite. She’d rather do the. The aligning and parcel the composite to someone else. And so for you, what is it that is your love? Is it is your love? I know it’s a combination of many things, but is your love the problem solving, treatment, planning, piece of it, or is that is there a degree of carpentry meccano like the drilling part? And fitting things together part? Or is it the social side of the patient and how happy they are at the end of it? And I know it’s a combination. Yeah. Yeah. But but to go to like what you’re saying now, how, how much you like full mouth work or so and you’ve got this ortho MSC as well. Yeah. So you know because you know, you look at an ortho before and after and it’s profound, right. Okay. It’s a year between the two pictures. Yeah, but it is profound. So if we’re talking about profound change also makes profound change. The planning is very interesting. Yeah. There’s 11 ways to skin that cat, right? Yep. So why isn’t author your love? You know? I mean, so what is it about formal rehab that you like more than ortho? When I have a question.

Okay, so when I say full mat rehab, a lot of them do have orthodontic treatment.

As well.

As. Well, you know, when I first started off, I was doing composites and I kind of built a reputation on composites. It was generally about aesthetics, wasn’t it? Yeah. You know, getting that invisible class three, Class five, whatever it is, single veneer, multiple composite veneers, getting that invisible restoration. Shiny. Shiny. Yeah, of course. Microfilm, hashtag. And then I started my my M.S. in Ortho back in 2012, where I had to make a decision. It was either going to be surgical implants or ortho. My brother was replacing implants. He’s got a masters in implants and he’s a phenomenal surgeon. So it would have been quite daft for me to do it. So I thought, Right, is he got a master’s implant?

Amazing. I don’t know that.

He’s a he’s got those of the.

Talented Palmer boys.

That’s.

Gone.

Now. So yeah, back then when I first started off, it was all about creating that invisible restoration. That’s what kind of triggered, you know. Yeah. Stimulated me. Now, actually, and the main thing for myself is when I’m finished a case. I am going back to my and assessing whether my diagnostic and my treatment planning skills were on point.

What you could have done better like that that piece.

Yeah well that.

And did I diagnose a problem correctly and did I treat it in the most appropriate way? So when I do a big case ortho restorative perio, for example, if I’ve diagnosed it properly, treatment plan, do it properly, finish the case off. I’m more chuffed about my thought processes at the beginning than the actual end result, if that makes sense.

There’s a lot of it.

Might be lab influenced. Some things are at your control. Patients don’t wear their retainers, teeth start slipping. Yes. And the more complex cases you do, the more you know, the more complex the problems are afterwards as well. Yeah. So what stimulates me more now is, is was my diagnosis correct? And was the treatment plan appropriate for for that patient?

And, you know, like, you know, that thing tips is about staying in the same practice for a long time. And I think Frank said yesterday as well, it’s treating the same patient for 30 years. And you can see what you’ve been how many years and. The same fact in ACORN.

For 12 years graduate in 2010. I’ve been there, did my 12 years.

As I see those cases, you put up like seven year, eight year composite cases, right? Yeah. So we’re going to take you through a situation that you looked at something eight years on or ten years time on and realised you’d made a mistake.

I’ll tell you something even better than that. I get to see my brothers, what, 12, 12 years older than me? I get to see his records that he’s started off because he’s been.

But you’re not sure what he did.

I know. I can tell you when I can. I know which which are his composite.

Because what he used.

To do, because he’s kind of taught me so similar style and seeing his post ups and forget that even better, the principle that he brought the practice of I’ve got to see his records. So I’m I get to see 30, 40 year old wrinkles.

Yeah, but you don’t know what 40 years ago it looked like, Gillian. But that’s important. I get it.

The performance of materials.

I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it. I do get that. So. So tell me something you’ve learned then from from looking at that like a typical like.

You’ve got to be meticulous. Dr. Cooper was meticulous, my brothers. Meticulous. They’ve taught me to be meticulous. If you’re meticulous, if you’re precise, you’re going to get good results.

Yeah. Yeah. And the errors do compound, don’t they? Like small errors end up as is much bigger errors afterwards. And and, you know, we see that with composite like a tiny little, little little imperfection in the composite can amplify six months and 12 months amplifies a big black dot. Yep. And and as you always point out, in all these cases we see that where there haven’t been ultra meticulous and how that’s going to turn out and the upkeep of it and all that. But I was I was more after like you realised not to do something like what? What is it like a way of doing it that you, for instance, with me, we know we talk about proximal staining. Yeah. Because I saw it in the, maybe in the three years that I was in that same practice it was staining came up as the main issue. Yeah. And then to be more meticulous within the proximal. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that with my own eyes, you know. So what was there with you? Recession.

Recession. Soft tissue management, soft tissue control for indirect work, soft tissue management for implant work that we’ve seen with my brothers stuff, you know, pushing the boundaries of composite, for example. So the tooth where cases that are treated with composite and you start to realise actually was that the right material in that particular mouth, you know, if.

Americans would call it transitional bonding for that.

Reason. Yeah, but you could do that. It creates its own problems because quite often you open up a patient’s OCD, the where the composite away, you’ve lost the OCD, and then it’s like, what do I do now? So either becomes a darling or you’re doing a full set of restorations again.

You know, you teach composite, right? And I think there is a massive sort of lack of knowledge as far as shortened teeth that people lend them. And, you know, you put this out all the time that the teeth shortened for a reason and people lengthen them and then and then that’s can be an occlusal problem. Now, our responsibility in composite teaching to teach occlusion and then you see it a lot. You see cases with these Centrals that are worn and someone just lengthens them. Yep.

So you think they’re worn for a reason? They’re in that position for a reason.

They’re faster than the enamel. Or it could even be an early like problem, right, if it catches a lateral or something. But but it’s weird because competition doesn’t really have inclusion management as part of it. We do. Do we do? I know we do, but it’s still not that much, right? It’s like an hour, right?

That’s because. Because they’re coming to learn composite. I know. I know. And they can go on another collision course and we.

Can’t teach everything from and.

We’re pretty frank. You’ve got to also accept or you’ve got to you’re going to hope the the your delegate delegate is going to have some sound knowledge on occlusion and know what case do you treat and what not case not to treat. But you do have to give them give people some advice. But look, I know so many people that will quite happily slap composite everywhere. You know, the most dysfunctional of maths and are quite happy to treat the the results that the results of that for me, you know, being paralysed by perfection, you know, I’ve kind of been trained to be more comprehensive interdisciplinary work. So you might look at cases in a different way. And yeah, there are cases where the patients can say, No, I don’t want two years worth of author, no, I don’t want to stick an implant here and stabilise occlusion here. I just want that those six veneers please. But as long as you have consented for it, and more importantly as a dentist, you’ve got to acknowledge that these problems may arise. Hence going back to your diagnostic and treatment planning skills and then what decision is chosen thereafter? It’s it’s been made with intent.

Yeah. Yeah. On purpose, not by mistake. Yeah, well, you’re not lying about the parallels by perfection. Yeah, because many Smile Makeover part two is four years in the making, and it’s been loads and loads of lost hair in my head for that one. But hopefully we’ll have a big announcement on that soon. We will. We will. But thanks a lot for taking that in. It’s really hard for you to talk to me.

Any time, Buddy.

Says, You know, we’re sitting here on day two of BCD and Frank Spear’s been talking all day. We’ve been. We’ve been.

Watching.

Yes, yes, yes. Have you seen him before?

No, It’s the first time. Yes.

Oh, What do you think?

I’m very impressed. You know, I somehow had a little bit of I was questioning what type of dentistry he was going to talk about and how he was with her, his expertise, how he was going to bring the minimally invasive part of that, because.

He’s not known for.

Minimal innovation. He’s not he’s more about restorations, form of rehabilitation and the occlusion thing, you know, all the bits. But I’m super impressed. I’ve definitely taken tips that I can work with the next day.

Like what was the that kind of resonated with you?

One of the things I have always believed in is in being conservative, and I find it very frustrating when somebody else, another colleague especially, finds, for example, an apical lesion and they intend to re treat the tooth or extract the tooth. Yeah. One of the things that he was talking about this morning about just give it time, let’s see what happens in 12 months time, in 24 months time and so on. Just basically monitoring. I think that is a key thing that I would of course I’m practising it, but I will discuss with my colleagues as.

I hear someone like Frank say It makes it more real, isn’t it?

Exactly. But you feel that you’re doing the right thing.

Well, he said that I hadn’t ever considered was the idea that if if the patient manages to keep that tooth for another six years, technology will move forward. And it’s something you don’t really think about that know that’s actually true. In six years time, implant dentistry will be a different thing to what it is today is what’s possible will be different.

And also taking into consideration what the patient wants. Sometimes they don’t want to take it to that or they don’t have the means to pay for an implant. And we even win. Two or three years of the patient can be saving towards the implant towards that makes it possible. Is possible. Yeah. And as as he says he’s going to make it, well, it is believable that we care for the patient.

Yeah. So you’re now part of the BCD organisation, right?

Yes.

So what is it you’re doing? What’s your.

Particular. I’m a committee member for Educational Committee and I’m standing up as a board member tomorrow. So hopefully I will be.

I’ll get my vote in. I’ll get my voted yes, please. So. So up to now, what does it mean to be part of the Education committee? What does that mean?

Well, we meet to talk about potential speakers for future events. This year, for example, I was very fortunate to be the organiser of our female leaders in dentistry event that it was absolutely amazing. So is that. Type of events that we’re trying to bring at the same time that we bring education, we also want to bring the social aspect of it, you know, networking, having fun with our colleagues. At the same time that we were learning. So yes, that’s good teacher for.

The if you have to if you had to put like a three day event like this and think about what bit of it is the most valuable bit you take. Obviously you’re seeing Frank Spear that’s going to inspire you. Yeah. You go to a hands on thing, you can actually learn something that you could literally do the next week. Yes, but the thing, the bit that you often forget is this bit, you know, the soft part, like you said, the socialising bit not only to have fun, but also, you know, you actually end up asking questions and learning from people outside of the actual learning environment. That’s why, you know, on our composite course we have this social part that when people don’t turn up to that social part, actually they feel like they’ve lost out. Because there’s one thing watching Depeche all day on the stage, but a different thing totally over a drink, having an asking a specific question. And he’ll say at that point something that you just not going to say on stage.

Yeah. I think you also form a different relationship with a speaker. Yeah, they become more real to you, right? They are more approachable, accessible. I think that’s why the Bayezid is so determined to making these social events in the majority of our events. We would like to bring that social component.

So in that female leaders thing, what did you do socially? What was the say?

Well, it was super fun because we had a female deejay. Oh, did you? We had a female DJ. We had.

All. It was like.

Yeah, I used a bit of everything, you know, We had a little bit of everything. A seventies music, eighties, nineties, Yeah, more recent music. It was amazing. And of course it was some beer. And so we managed to, to, to get our hands in some very, really lovely English sparkling wine. So yeah, it was amazing.

So we had, we had this series called Leading Ladies. Yes. And part of it was I started counting the number of guests that we’ve had on this podcast who are men and women, and guess what the ratio was?

I can’t imagine. I would like to say equal.

No, no more Ladies. 4 to 1 men.

Oh, 4 to 1. Yeah.

And when I saw that and you know, I’m actually trying to have more women on, right? You know, I’ve changed my position on it now. We’re actually trying to have more women on I but even then when I counted, it was a 4 to 1 ratio of men to women. And that’s why I thought, Oh, let’s do these compilation ones of the ladies and put all of them together just to just to have some more inspiration that way. Now, for someone like you, who now you just sold your practice. Yes. Yeah. You you’re a strong leader. Like I’ve seen you in practice. I’ve been to your practice. People like you, you, you motivate people and all of that. Much of your journey in the educational piece would have been different, would have would have accelerated if there were more women teaching.

I think quite a lot. Because you want to be relatable.

To identify to the.

Teacher, you want to be identified, you want that person to understand what you go through when you’re a mother. But they at the same time, you have a business. When you have an inspiration, you want to be better. You want to spend time learning. It’s always nice to know that the other person knows what you’re going through because they go through the same thing. You know, it’s a little bit like menopause. We talk about that between women. There is something that you wouldn’t discuss with them. It’s the same thing in dentistry in what is to be a mom or what is to have all the things to do apart from your dentistry. But at the same time you want to be in dentistry. So it is it is harder for a woman to be considered, I think, as a as a leader or as inspirational professional because we have so much competition without with men. What I was.

What? What do you.

Mean? Yeah. Because when you go and for example, you, you are like the event that I organised, I will be approaching companies and saying, which are your top female speakers? And I will find companies that said, Oh, actually I don’t have any female speakers. So that that was maybe because historically we have been busy running our families, running all the part of our lives rather than. To dentistry. Yeah.

That’s the reason, isn’t it?

It is, I think.

I think it’s partly that. Partly that there’s a second part that it’s almost like ladies are less likely to. To put themselves up somehow. There’s a, there’s a modesty or a like for a man to stand up and say, this is what I do and this is the size of my drill. It seems more natural than for some ladies.

Yes. Yes. Because you want to be considered as an equal, but you see that in many lines in life you are not considered an equal.

I don’t think it’s about consent. You don’t? Do you honestly think that in this in this environment here, some people are saying, oh, this lady isn’t equal to that man like you just thought that amazing practice. Right? And James Gornik just sold his amazing practice as an outsider. Someone else looking at it, whether it’s a man or a woman looking at it, no one’s going to say, Oh, Jean is less than James in any way.

Well, I yes, I think I don’t think we do find anybody saying that. I really hope we never find somebody saying that. I think you’re believing.

You’re out of the ordinary. A little bit of of women in that you’re you’re out there. You’ve got you’ve got your practice. You’re doing all the things you’re doing. And now you’re doing this, for instance, you’re a little bit out of the ordinary that you’ve put yourself in. You know, someone coming over from Mexico?

Yes.

To do that in a second language, you’re not a bit special in that sense, right? Thank you. But is there something that’s holding other women back? I don’t think that the system is I don’t think the system.

I don’t think is the system. I think is is is is the first thing that The first.

Thing is that for sure. Right. You’re running a house, you’re running a practice. You run a lecturing career on top of those.

But this support this support is supporting your personal life, is supporting your business life. Like, for example, I have a very supportive husband, but in the practice I have an amazing team behind me so I can I don’t have to be in the practice for the practice to run properly. I don’t have to be at home for my house to be run properly. I have a nanny, you know, in support and believing that you can count with these people to support you. That gives you the confidence to say, Actually, I want to do this. I think I’m capable of doing that. Don’t take me wrong. I doubt sometimes myself, I sometimes feel that people believe more in me, that I believe in myself, that it’s like the imposter imposter syndrome.

Imposter syndrome is a feature of growing quickly, that if you’re doing if you’re doing something and growing quickly, imposter syndrome is one of the features of that. Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe, maybe women suffer with it more than men do. Maybe.

I think so. Yes, I will. I will think so. But one thing that I know is changing is that that perception of saying, yes, we want more female speakers I was talking to yesterday to to one of the lecturers and I, I was talking about my event and said we don’t want to call it female leaders in dentistry event maybe anymore because it doesn’t matter if you are female or male, you are a leader in dentistry. I said, Who will you put forward? I said, I don’t have anybody. But you know what? After speaking to you, I’m going to look in my network to see who will be perfect for us to work with. So I think it’s just it’s changing and it’s changing in a very positive way. I think that is one of my main inspirations to be in the back seat and become a board member, hopefully tomorrow.

Do you think one day you’ll be the president?

Well, yes, why not?

I love your style. Yes, I love your style. Why not?

Why not? Why not? Yes.

One thing one thing that’s been a bit of a bugbear of mine has been this question of, you know, women in dentistry. Yes. The the there are some women in dentistry having a really tough ride. Yes. And it’s not the dentists, it’s the nurses, the receptionists, the hygienist.

The.

Support team. And one thing in your practice, it’s actually it’s all female.

Yes, we are.

I seem.

To remember. Yes.

But in your practice, it was this sort of very career orientated sort of feeling about it. You know that your manager. What a professional.

Amanda. Amanda.

What a professional. And when we deal with her regarding Enlightened or whatever, or even when I see her, you know, I got the sense that she had career progression in her life she was proud of.

Or.

Proud of what she was achieving in work.

She she’s she.

Puts in a lot of.

Very hard working that that that’s.

In a lot of practices. You don’t get that in so much as practice seem to be centred around that and. And it’s almost like everyone else is there on minimum wage that you can possibly pay them to just do the little bits that they can and let this dentist carry on. And you hear some terrible stories about the way staff are treated. Oh, definitely. But you’ve managed to you know as well as making your patients happy, make yourself happy.

I think it’s because I give them the respect and the place that they deserve. You know, I, I always say to my to my staff, what would you like to do? Is there cause you want to go to let me know? We’re always happy to support you. You know, it’s is is progression. But not only my progression is your progression where you want to go. We have had team members that have left the practice because they have gone back to university or they have made a career change. You know, it is not because we’re not a good team to work with because they’re moving on and moving on. Exactly.

Yes. It’s a lovely example. Tell me about now that you’ve sold the practice. Yes. You’re still there, right? You still have. How many more years do you have to be there?

Four years. Four years in total, Yes.

How does it feel now that you’re not the boss anymore?

It’s odd, I have to say. It’s not that as easy as one thing. The transition. It is a transition. You have to get used to it.

You have to ask for permission.

You have to ask for permission.

Give me an example of something you would have just actioned straightaway. Whereas now you have to ask for permission.

As simple as. We had a beautiful humidifier at the practice that, you know, with this aroma for your cigars. Not at all. But I said to Amanda, Amanda, we need to buy a table to put it on. Oh, yeah. I will ask permission to buy that. And it’s like, what? It’s just a £20 table from Amazon, you know? But it is what it is.

That must make you angry.

Another thing that. That that is is is going to be a big change is the way that we celebrate Christmas at the practice. Because I’m very old, you know oh I love champagne parties and things and that And now you’ve been told, well, you have only £50 per person and you know, what am I going to do with £50 per person? You know, but I’m sure we will. We will manage. Yeah. We’ll do something special for them.

That’s tough.

Man. It is.

Tough. Yes.

I guess you could always top it up like.

Oh, of course I will top it off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m already saving for that.

But I hear you. But I hear you. I hear you. I’m trying to think about it. Enlightened. I had that. I mean, I think there’s one, one issue where it’s. It’s like at the £20 Amazon table where it’s annoying. Yes, but there is another issue that this bishopsgate would not have gotten to where it’s gotten and the way it’s got I mean, it’s just everything about that practice. I’ve been there a few times, right? I feel the vibe about that. You’ve made certain moves at certain times to get to where you got to. Exactly how much of those moves would have been delayed and not allowed if there was a third party saying yes, no, yes, no. And I know you you’re kind of a passionate kind of person and a bit like me, if I if I’m excited about something, I’m like, let’s do that now and then. Even if it doesn’t make sense. Yes. Yeah. Because I want to make that thing happen. And it’s interesting to reflect back and think going backwards, if you had to ask for permission for every move you made.

We would not be where we are.

Now. You wouldn’t be where you are now.

No, but that is the beauty of the years in a practice that you you grow it to a point when you think, okay, now I want to do something different, be involved more in the bhakti, do some more speaking for a line, you know, different things where I think, you know what? I need somebody now to help me. The progression of the practice because the practice is keeps progressing. One of the main the big examples of it is we I saw the practice in March. By September we had already two new dentists that I wanted to bring since last year, but I’ve been so yeah, journey and really and I’ve been so busy that I haven’t had the time to to think, okay, what is the next step? I know the next step is to bring more clinicians, but oh, I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. Whereas now I said.

Could you expand it?

You made it bigger.

Yes. So I said, Guys, I want to four more days, clinical days. And they say, okay, do not leave it to us. And they do it. They help me with that.

You must have known you were going to sell it while you were making it bigger. And I have to be strangely honest.

My the first time I thought about selling it was when we were in the first lockdown. I enjoyed my home. I enjoyed spending time with my family. I. And I thought.

There’s another side to life.

There’s another side to life. I enjoy life. For example, the video consultations, the sort of things happening behind dentistry, let’s say. So that is the first time I thought, why not? So that is when the process started.

And then is there any aspect of responsibilities that being taken away from you that are actually good, that you’re happy?

I’m very pleased.

Like what?

We had a serious inspection.

You had nothing.

To do about six weeks ago. I didn’t have anything to do with it. Of course, I supported my my team. You know, I help out with the radiology folder. I was there to sign papers. I did my whatever they asked me to do. But the corporate was sold to I don’t know if I love to say dentists. They were there all the time. You know, They’re the ladies that they’re for. Yeah. What’s the compliance team was was there, and they didn’t let us alone. You felt. We felt that we were accompanied throughout and I didn’t have to even be the practice to on that secrecy inspection. But having said that, one of the comments that we got that Amanda was told by the inspector is I don’t doubt that your practice was already amazing before you sold to dentists and the secrecy of some of the audits that we run that were no dentistry. So he still said we Exactly. We did it. So yes, that was great.

Did you feel that loss feeling people talk about like you’ve sold your baby?

No yet, and I don’t think I will because.

Did you start it from school? What did you buy?

Was bankrupt when I bought it. So I had to build up an only patient.

And how many.

Years? The reputation? 12 years. 12 years for.

Such an amazing achievement.

He had a very bad reputation. The practice with all these pliers. Because the previous pain level pain. You reach a point that because directory will not sell me if I was in pain straight away.

Yes.

So because I remember you from when when we had our podcast episode, I remember asking you you’ve got you’re doing so many Invisalign like, what’s your marketing machine? And you kept on saying, just we just do good work and people recommend us. So like you turned that around from a bad reputation practice exactly where you got it. Yes. One of the busiest Invisalign centres in the country visits enlightened centres in the country. The bits are like.

Exactly, yeah, of course.

Massive achievement. You should be very proud.

Thank you.

You really should. So lovely speaking to you. Thanks a lot for taking the time.

No, thank you for inviting.

Me and are really already enjoying this. Hopefully tonight we’re going have a great.

Of course we will. And it’s always so nice to speak to you so And.

Thanks to you. Thank you.

So, Kayleigh, so thank you from Dental with me at BCD. K you kind of here on on behalf of dental beauty in a way as well. And you’ve sold what, 60% of of kids dental to them and now we’ve got this sort of new roll out of practices. And last time I spoke to you, you were about to open you were saying ten more practices. Was was the plan. How far are you with that?

Okay. So obviously, when the deal took place in March, the master plan was to grow and yeah, ten clinics is, is was all for me. It was a realistic number. And you know, it’s actually a little bit more difficult than you think doing that. Sure. And, you know, we’re now into the actual reality of the situation and we are now into November.

How many of you go.

And so we’ve got five up to.

Now, five new.

Ones. No. So we’ve got our original three. Yeah. We’ve now completed and opened two more and they’re running. Where are they. So they’re in Alderley edge and I’ve got two lovely partners for they’re a couple Colwell and Jade who are amazing and they’re running that clinic beautifully. And then we’ve got Knutsford now, and that literally opened only a couple of weeks ago and that was with our new partner, Andy McLean. And he’s an amazing clinician and I know that clinic is going to do super well.

Yeah, of course.

And then we’ve been trying to acquire a clinic in Liverpool for the last six months, believe it or not. And it’s just the property, it’s a squat property and it will be a complete greenfield site and it’s taken six months to acquire. Now we didn’t envisage that. So we’re in a situation where that should have been up and running by Christmas. It’s now going to probably be March, April and the timeline moves on.

And so what’s been holding that up?

Just the just property, old property issues. And it’s just like, kill me now because all I want to do is grow. You know, the funds are there, the money’s there, the clinicians are there. And Kosh, who’s one of our associates, you know, he’s going to be the partner of that clinic. And then we’ve got an agreed site in Bolton. Again, just going through the legals currently, it’s just things just take that little bit longer and you don’t envisage that when you when you start this journey and we’ve got a final clinic in Bramhall in Stockport.

Stockport.

And again I’ve been going, okay, but again we’re just going through the legals of acquiring the site first and then we need to build the clinic, which is generally formal, another squat, another squat. So what my model is, is literally based currently just purely on squats and.

Why.

Control and the ability to have a fresh start at that site. The patients understanding that this is what they’re signing into right from day one, I believe like there will be a time where I would really like to acquire existing clinics as well. But it’s tricky because you acquire existing clinics, you actually acquire existing problems and existing staff and sometimes they may not be aligned with what I want to do.

And so the partner person is is got skin in the game, right?

Yeah, 100%, 40%.

40% of that particular clinic.

That particular clinic.

And then so what are you thinking is going to be the time from when that a new squat launches to profitability. Is it very quick.

Yes. So to be honest with you, our progress has been a little bit slow initially as well, because, you know, our investors were very cautious because my my business plan was. Bullish. And, you know, I’m saying we’re going to make profit from not day one, essentially, but we’re going to make your maybe a positive profit month to month three in that, right? Yeah. And they’re like, he joking like and they’ve got 300 plus clinics around Europe. Every greenfield site they open, they’re like, we’re in profit month seven or month eight.

Which is still compared to real. Well, when I say real business compared to non dental businesses, six months seven months is extraordinary. Two weeks in profit. So so you’re in a hurry to get it into profit in month two. Well, yeah, asking a lot. It’s asking a lot of the marketing team. I think it is a squat.

And so we launched Altrincham Alderley Edge and that’s been launched now three months of we’re in positive EBITDA.

So what’s, what’s now your new role Because while it was your own three clinics, yes, you are definitely the producer, the one doing the most dentistry.

Yeah, of course.

And so when in a new clinic, is your role training the partners into that dental way of.

Yeah, of course. So like for me now I’m doing three clinical days. Yeah. Wanting to really put that down to two if I can in the next 12 months. Only because I love the dentistry and I don’t want to finish that and I don’t want to stop that. But yeah, heavily based on really spending time with the partners. You know, I’ve got some partners like we’ve spoken about, like Andy McLean, who, you know, he’s much, much.

More he’s going to hit the ground.

Running so he knows what he’s doing. I don’t need to hold his hand and get him through that process. But I’ve got other partners that have never run a clinic before. I’ve never been a part of anything apart from KISS. And so those guys are really want to kind of go, I’m here to support you, here to help you, and here to ensure that no matter what happens at this point now, you know, you you will be able to run this and I will be there. And so that’s a big part in what how.

Are you finding the transition for yourself as a as an operator? It’s transitioning to this new role.

Yeah, it’s it’s tricky because I’m a dentist and I just you know, I’m my biggest comfort area is just doing teeth sitting in my room, do my teeth. And, you know, when I’m having to deal with lots of meetings and partners and this and that and the other, I genuinely do feel sometimes like, just give me back my teeth really, because.

I find I find in life, though, when you when you do get out of your comfort zone like that, that sort of cliche that people talk about where you do get out of your comfort zone. Yeah, you only realise how important that was later, years later. Yeah. When when the when you reap the rewards of, of that when you’re actually going through it. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s uncomfortable. Right. It’s uncomfortable. You know you’re out of your comfort zone, you’re not doing what you’re used to. Yeah. And so I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t sort of worry too much about the fact that it’s uncomfortable. But, but yeah. That transferring the things about Kailash that are, that are special to this new role each you have to look at each new thing you do and think, why am I the right person to do this? Yeah. Yeah. Because if a patient is put in front of you and you’re going to talk to them about 20 veneers. Yeah, you do that, like with your eyes closed. Drinking water. Yeah. Why is that? Because you’re good with people. Because you’re good at presenting stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So then, so then it’s got to be when you now talk to a partner, a dentist, you have to now present the opportunity to the dentist, right? Yeah. And you know, I went through this myself. Yeah. I was very good with patients. I thought because I’m very good with patients, I’m going to be very good with dentists if there are two different animals.

Yeah.

But when a patient sits in your chair, he’s implicitly saying, I trust you. Yeah. Whereas we’re trained as dentists, we’re trained not to trust. That’s part of our training isn’t to question everything. Right? So, you know, I think you shouldn’t worry too much about it. You should just keep on doing what you’re doing.

Yeah. And I do think, like, you know, as as I’ve gone along and, you know, I think things like my private vet scheme at the clinics is really helped because it’s allowed these clinicians who are now becoming partners in my business, it’s allowed them to know whether they do trust me or not. So then when I sit down with them and I say, Oh, caution, Nabeel or Calum or whoever, listen, I think this clinic would be perfect for you. They they’re literally like, okay, that’s what you think, Let’s do it, you know? And that’s lovely. It’s like a.

Lovely. So let’s talk about career pathway because we were just discussing if someone’s just qualified. Yeah. How long does it take them to do your private scheme. Yeah. And let’s say they’re very good and they take on the way you train them and all that. How long will it take them to go from just qualified private vet to the point of becoming a partner. How long would you say was the shortest period that that could be? So if.

You look at for instance, Kush and Nabeel, who are probably my youngest partners, so Coach has been with us now nearly three years, So he started his private vet and.

Straight out of college.

Graduate is from Latvia. So like in the UK. Yeah. Came straight to. But to the UK and did year one with us, which was a salaried position and year two which was a salaried position and then to fee per item at the end of year two and just be prior to a normal kind of split 45, 55 split and a private clinic. And you know, at that point doing well, I would say quite, quite advanced dentistry from, from the offset really, and not initially from that but year one. Year two is where he learned that and specifically from myself and some of my key clinicians. So then year three, we’ve already we’ve offered him.

Yeah, he is rather special.

He is he is rather special. But then if we look at Nabeel, that’s the fastest he’s the fastest. Nabeel came towards again on the private VC scheme. He we only did one year of the private VC scheme, but he’d already graduated and worked in clinics previously, so his experience level was higher. Yeah. So then I say, Well, I want you to be with us. I want you to grow with our group. But I also want to don’t want to do is just throw you in the deep end. You don’t understand how this works. You don’t understand what we do and how we do it. I want you to have a salaried position for a year. I don’t want to worry about money. I want you to just me focus on the clinics, focus on dentistry, focus on doing things right. And he took that on board and he took a large pay cut, if you can imagine, to go from fee copyright.

Fee per item, associate.

Associate to to a salaried position of.

I’ll break it down. How much do you pay them. 5050 K Yeah, but I guess you’ve got to look at that as education, the education that you’re being paid for. That’s the way you have to look at it.

And that’s what I say. I said to anyone that even would ever consider it. If you consider it and you begrudge every day you’re there because you know you could earn more money and don’t do it. Yeah, because you’re not in the right mindset to learn to be there, to be present and to think I’m getting value for this. All your thinking is is paying me a measly 50 grand.

Yeah.

And that person isn’t right. But the person that does look at it and go, you know what? I’m going to put everything into this. It’s a year or two years out of my life, but at the end of it, I’m going to see massive value.

Yeah.

Then that’s the person.

I think Prav and I used to talk about this for years. If if it was teachable or not. And we and travel, as you say to me, because yes, he’s got so many clients. Right. You said of all of his clients, you’re the one who is converting more and all of this. And and it’s interesting because now you’re sort of proving that it’s teachable.

Yeah.

We take two people straight out of college who are now producing extraordinary amounts of work. Yeah, quality work.

Some of these guys pay, you know, a gross in a hundred K plus a month to.

Three years.

Out, two or three years out. And so and I’m not saying that’s all me, by the way, some of these guys are special in their own right as well.

It’s picking them to be seeing that potential in some ways.

For me, it’s seeing the potential. It’s giving them the right pathways, given the right educational approach and then keeping nurturing them. Like just this week, I got all my associates. There was like 15 of them, and we had an evening of just talking about treatment and treatment uptake and and talking about ethical approaches to to consultations. And and, you know, and I do believe that all these little things that you can kind of discuss, give them tips, give them tricks, give them the things that have worked for me over the years. And I’m not saying I’m a golden goose, but what I can do.

You’re a resource, your resource for a patient when let’s say I present you someone right now, one of these student reps and I say, look, this, this lady, she’s she’s interested in becoming one of your PhDs. How good do you think you are at seeing sort of spotting potential in someone? And what are you looking for? Is it purely like, astute?

Yeah.

So I think the dental part that’s that’s not here.

There they teach that. Yeah. I think the key thing is attitude and I think so.

What is the attitude?

So for me it’s difficult, isn’t it? I’ll be honest. I’ve had people come to me and I get contacted all the time. I want I want to do this. I want to do that. And the first thing is you talk them through the process and the ones that are bit like, Oh, but I didn’t expect the salaries to be so low. I didn’t.

Help outside. Outside of the money. Outside the money.

But that is. Yeah, but that being that first bit tells you a lot because they don’t see that there’s no value, they’re not seeing the volume what you’re offering. Yeah. Yeah. Because they’re tying it to a monetary figure. Yeah. And if I said to the right person I’m going to pay you nothing for this year, the right person would say, I’m still.

Got your hand off, I’m.

Still coming because I know the value I will get out of. It is colossal against not getting paid for a year. I’m not saying anyone would take that, but what I’m saying to you is that tells you a lot right from the offset.

One thing that’s interesting, not not, not that they’re actually comparable. Yeah, but you could go pay an institution 50 grand and get an MSI, or you could go work in one of your schemes, get paid 50 grand, and both are education. There’s no doubt they’re both education. Of course, they’re different types of education, but both are education. And if you look at it as education, suddenly it seems like an amazing deal that you’d be paid to be educated.

Exactly. And then.

You’re right. That’s a big thing.

It’s a big thing. But then the next thing I always say is really when I’m talking to them and I’m and I will always say, I will always go with that. The person who’s the least keen, not least motivated. It’s wrong to say that, but the person that’s not so full of themselves, a little bit more humble, a little bit more kind of reserved. I want that person. It’s funny.

Because that’s not.

You, is it? No, And.

I’m not looking for little, little K.

I’m not looking for me because ultimate little mes, I’ll want to do what I do. And that’s not that’s not good conducive for the growing business. And so the odd little me is fine if you can control them, but you can’t sometimes control those guys and they get What are you saying? What are.

You saying? If, if you turned up and applied for a job with you. Yeah.

You wouldn’t give them. Well, probably wouldn’t take it because I’d be like, this guy is killing me off. Like, you know. Yeah, he’s. He’s like a fucking carbon copy of me, you know? And that’s, that is difficult because I’m not after that type of person. What I’m after is someone that’s loyal. I’m after someone that will respect the brand, will respect what I say. It’s not it’s not a regime. It’s it’s, it’s always a discussion. But I also.

I think overall, you’re easy to work for. Yeah, because I’ve spoken to enough of your team that I can see people generally happy.

Yeah.

And I just you do you try hard on that right? You try to be happy workplace. That’s actually part of Dental whole thing. Yeah. As the patient walks in, everyone’s happy and you can’t. People can’t pretend to be happy. It’s one of those things they have to be happy. So let’s talk about exit. So you’ve done this sort of hybrid thing. Some people just sell their business. Yeah, and they’re out. Other people say they sell their business and they sort of have to stay for two or three years, even though they’re kind of out. Yeah, but you’ve done this sort of half way thing where you’ve sold kind of half your business. Yeah. And it’s an interesting thing because someone said to me, Here, take some money, cash off the table and here’s a cash injection and taken right into the next level. It’s kind of in a way, actually one of the best ways of doing it, because you still you’re still playing the game.

Exactly.

You’re not high risk in the game.

Yeah. Like, listen, I’ve high balled my life. I suppose you would describe it for 20 years. You know, Sole trader never went to limited. Literally everything was on a PG personal guarantee. Obviously over those years we’ve paid all the loans and things up. But when I first started KISS, there was a million quid in Dad, you know, when I was 24. So at that point, you know, you are there’s a lot of pressure and you get to a point in 20 years on you thinking to yourself, well, of course, like, listen, pay, I’ve had a great life. Dentistry has afforded me a lovely life and I’m super thankful for the profession for that. But I’ve also got to understand is at some point, you know, you want some security, you want some things, you want cash in the bank, you want to.

You want return on the.

Sweat. Yeah, you do. And but then what you also don’t want at the tender age of 42 is to be like packing it all in and thinking, what am I going to do now?

And that’s a thought experiment. What would you do? Let’s say you’ve won the lottery and $1,000,000,000 landed in your in your account.

What would it be?

Thought experiment. Yeah. What would you do?

I think obviously I’d able to take things off the back burner a little bit, but I’d probably I’m not geared that way, so I’d probably still do ability I’d probably go on probably slightly more lavish holidays, maybe get private jets.

How could it get more lavish?

Just more private jets, I think. Just more private jets and bigger yachts. Well, private, but essentially, like, you know, it’s one of those that I’d still want to do bits. I’d want to work.

I’d probably. I know, I know, I know. But look, I’ve asked this question many times and people say holidays and they say charity. Yeah, they say that I kind of want to take those two things off the table.

I’ll put charity in as well.

Just for.

Sure. I said, What?

People tend to say those two things, and once you take those two things, most of them, by the way, just haven’t had a break. They’re working so hard. They just need a break. Yeah, but once you take those two things off, off the table, you know, knowing yourself is quite interesting because what would it what would some guy, you know Indeed. My partner. Yeah. He’d go running. Yeah. He’d do yoga all day if he could. Yeah. And some, some of us like maybe me and you. I don’t know if it’s you, but we’re not sure. I’m not sure.

What I always.

Be happiness for me, if I didn’t.

I always think like time taking. Getting back a bit of time is be happiness for me. You know, like I always think about it and I always wake up in the morning and have a personal training session at 6:00 and I finish my gym session at seven and then I shower and get ready. I have a little bit of a minute in bed and then I get to work and then I’ll do my patience. I’ll have all my meetings and then I’ll finish that and then I’ll go and see my kids and they’ll spend a couple of hours with them. And then that’s done and I’ll come home and I’ll eat and I’ll repeat. And that’s my.

Life. What time do you go to bed?

Usually like 11, 12:00. So it’s a long day. And it’s one of those days that if I could then say, actually I’ll have a personal training session at 8:00 in the morning and I’ll, I’ll maybe go to work at 12. Yeah. And I’ll have a bit of a chill that morning and then I might do some patients till two or three and then I’ll go pick the kids up from school instead. And it allows me, I suppose.

The interesting thing is you could just do that.

And then I could. I could. But I think the pressure and as you’ve said it, you know, I’ve done the partial sell. And so from that side everyone’s like, Well set is solid now and you know, financially pay. Yeah, I suppose I am, but I’m not mentally and I’m not mentally there because I still feel there’s things that need to be done. And now I’ve got new goals and new aspirations with the business and I don’t want to be a failure. I’ve never been a failure in anything I’ve done, so I don’t want to fucking fail at this.

So how do you how do you feel not being the ultimate boss boss anymore?

Like for me, like it’s funny, like, you know, some of the guys, the laughing little joke and like, Devil be like walking down the corridor and they’ll be like, Oh, there’s your boss there. Okay. And, and I’m a bit like.

Is clever enough to when something’s working to to leave.

It. Yeah I guess And listen.

I’m like psychologically I’m not talking about in this particular situation with that.

Yeah it could be.

Anyone else the fact that it’s not you making because you’re the kind of cat that I remember. Sometimes you would do something just out of the box. Crazy thing that I’m sure now with Dev you’d have to. You couldn’t do that.

You’ve got to ask the question. Yeah, but like you said, he is a bit like you said. He’s very, very understanding.

He’s, he’s clever enough to.

Lead and he knows, like Kailash, if you think this is going to work, let’s do it. Let’s roll with it. But you got us the. You know? Uh huh. And that’s tough because it’s tough. Yeah, of course.

It’s nice to hear that.

Because, you know, I have been the king and ruler of all of all the things I’ve ever wanted and done in my business for ever. And like, if it went really well, then I got a lovely pat on the back by myself, and it went fucking terrible.

The thing is, though, the thing we were talking about those different ways of getting out and in a way we were saying, This is the best way. Yeah. Everything has a downside. And the downside of this particular thing is that that’s it. You do have to ask.

You’ve got to ask the question. And, you know, like for instance, we we wanted to do the Bramhall Clinic and, and you know, we put the business plan together and you now have to get approval for beauty and, and dental beauty needs get approval from EDG. And I’m like, I just want to fucking build a clinic. Yeah. I don’t understand why we can’t just build this clinic.

You know, and old.

That’s my old self going back, and let’s just sign the lease. I couldn’t understand what’s going on. And it’s those things that you kind of feel like not held back by because eventually it all goes through and they trust these guys. Now, trust me because the original, the last next two squat clinics have been doing really well. And so we’re in positive EBITDA with them and they’re like blown away by the figures and they’re saying, Hey, let’s roll with it now, which is great for me, because then it allows me to run with my idea and but I still had to prove myself. Yeah, And that’s the tough bit and that’s the tough bit that puts the pressure back on. And so I do have to wake up at 6:00 in the morning and I do still need to get to work for that clock. And so I don’t have an I can’t take back that time at all.

Well, it’s a massive pleasure to see you at an event again. I remember we used to come to practice all the time together.

Yeah.

I mean, you took a little break while you built this little, little empire, right? But as the world’s biggest enlightened user, I congratulate you for making it back. But now proud of you. Did proud of you for what you’re going for. You didn’t need to. You could just sit back on on a on a boat if you wanted to. So it’s interesting that you’re going for it.

Yeah. And I think that’s just my nature, isn’t it? And so I think when it’s in your nature, I’ll be bored. Or I’d be sad, actually, if I. If I sold the whole thing and then either saw it flourish, that would upset me without me or the other way or the other way. And then I think, like, that was a waste. It was a loss. I should have kept hold of that because that was my baby and and undermined realm. You know, it it grew and flourished.

So amazing, man. Thanks for doing that.

Do you this is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and.

Pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say.

Because I’m assuming you got some value out.

Of it.

If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

Historically, we have been busy running our families, running all the part of our lives rather than the dentistry.

That’s the reason, isn’t it?

It is.

I think it’s partly that partly that there’s a second part that it’s almost like ladies are less likely to to put themselves up somehow. There’s a there’s a modesty or a like for a man to stand up and say, this is what I do and this is the size of my drill. It seems more natural than for some ladies.

Yes. Yes.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Silang.

So I’m with Alonzo. Two dentists. You would have seen their stuff on YouTube. Guys, it’s nice to have you at BC. Is this the first one you’ve done?

Yeah, this is. Yeah, the first. Definitely. Yeah. My first one is all coming to B.C.. I’ve been to a young student event before, but this is my first event. Yeah, that was the first one we ever went to together. First event we ever went to together as a young dentist. If you remember, it was like third and fourth year uni, maybe four years ago. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what’s your reflection like now that you’ve been to the actual main conference? How do you feel about it? It’s a really.

Good fun, really enjoying it. Obviously the trade fair today, the course is yesterday.

Which one did you do?

Yesterday I did two biomimetic posterior composites and smile first in the afternoon. So, yeah, really, really interesting. Learn a lot. I remember when we went to the first BCD event back when we were students. No one else in our group Uni was mentioning this stuff and had gone and this was the first one that we actually went on. We went and it was a day of like amazing lectures and it was so revolutionary for us. And from then on I think that was the first one that kicked off all these events that we started going to, you know, the year after that we went to the London Dentistry, so Dentistry year, we were just constantly gagging for more. And I think.

I quite encouraged students to turn up and really smile over to watch. I mean, even if they don’t know, I don’t want them to pay to actually do the thing. But for me, if a student in their fourth year or something comes and watches that, it puts their career on another trajectory and they see what else is positive possible, you know.

I think the inspiration, like they become inspired by what dentists can actually do. Yeah, and because I imagine a lot of dental students, especially towards the final years, they get so bogged down with exams and revision and lecturers maybe being mean or supervisors being mean that they may even be put off from dentistry, but then come in to events like this or any event.

Really with the positivity of it.

The positivity of it, seeing how happy dentists are actually in person and, you know, communicating with one another and motivating is a big.

Big part of it. So how many years out are you guys now?

I’m two years out. This is my second year as an associate and this is my first year as an associate.

Oh, I see. So you weren’t even the same year graduated?

No, no, no, no. We grew up together, so, yeah, we went to high school. To primary school. Oh, in high school, sixth form. We split up for uni. I took a gap year and he didn’t. Yeah. So that’s why I’m one year behind him.

And where did you study then?

St I’m in Newcastle and I’m from Bristol. Yeah.

Oh so you go to dentist. You wasn’t even you weren’t in the same place at the same time from COVID.

It was really weird because our first year of uploading Ali was in Newcastle, still doing this final year and I was doing my foundation training. So I was in London, he was in Newcastle and he would come down to London for us to record and somehow we managed to upload a video every single week for a whole year with him even being in Newcastle.

The consistency I find with content consistency is the absolute key consistency because because the content will find its own audience, right? The audience that wants to watch YouTube. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a group of people, but they need to every Wednesday night, whenever every time they go for a run or every time whenever their, their particular rhythm is, you need to be there in that rhythm, you know. And I decided to do dental leaders one a week come what may. Yeah yeah. And you know, sometimes it’s a question of we haven’t got an episode, what should we do? And then sometimes they become the most valuable episodes of the whole year because I just sit with him and just talk. Yeah, Yeah. 100%. Did you see any of Frank’s beer? Yeah, I did. What do you think? Was it above your head or did you feel like you could relate to it?

Because as I said, I’m first year associate. No, I could definitely relate to most of it. And I was actually surprising. I was actually thinking, It’s funny you asked me that. I was thinking back to that very first time we went to young dentist and how lost I was as a student compared to how much I actually am now understanding. And also what’s actually above that is I’m also thinking, wow, the more I’m learning, the more I’m learning that actually there’s so much more to learn. Yeah, it’s so, so.

That is, that is dentistry in a nutshell, pardon the pun. But that, that is the more you learn the less you realise how little you know.

You realise how you know. Yes. Just I was, I was noticing how much Doctor Frank’s beer actually he dabbles in so many different things as well and he’s able to understand so many different things from his colleagues.

So experience for me out of the big guns, like the really top guns, maybe there’s like two or three in the world, right? I find him the most accessible, like the most easily understandable, you know, because different people at different stages of their career. Right. So some guys in there are doing full mouth rehabs every day. And then there’s other people like me or you or whoever, you know, who are different level. But out of the big boys, I’ve listened to most of the big boys. I just find him just more accessible, you know? And that’s a. Beautiful thing, man. That’s beautiful. The other thing is that the presentation style. Yeah. You know, Water, bro.

Yeah, I was going to say, he’s got it down to the tee. Yeah, he’s a good speaker. He’s really good at communicating. You can tell, because one sentence flows on to the next and the slide flows on with.

Yeah, yeah.

So smoothly. And I imagine if you open up his PowerPoint, it’s not tense. It’s like hundreds of slides where it doesn’t feel like a 100 slide. How seamless. It’s seamless.

Really? Well, I found that. So you’re not coming tonight to the gala? Yeah. Oh, you’re welcome.

But. Oh, I’ll be here tomorrow for the for the day. And so won’t actually gala will be there.

You’ll enjoy that. You’ll enjoy that look for when they tend to go all out a little bit. Yeah. And, but so I’m going to have you guys on the proper podcast as well. We’d love for sure. Can’t wait because I’ve been watching you guys from a distance for a long time now. Then we finally met on Minibar Maker. That was lovely as well, but we definitely have a full length, long form conversation. So nice to have you guys.

Thank you so much for having us.

I’ve got Chris McConnell, the president who is responsible for all of this from the back. Obviously, again, and I guess this particular event has been driven by.

Ucas this year. So we’re at the ICC in Wales and its 2022 conference. Headline Speaker Frank Spear, who is a massive, massive name in the world of dentistry. And yeah, it’s, it’s a big event in always the venues, big the speakers big delegates numbers are big trade support like yourselves fantastically really big. And yeah, it’s been a lot of hard work to get this through and over the line. I have to say slightly stress this morning, I’m nice and chilled now and it’s lovely to just sit down and have a chat. But it’s been. Yes.

So you know, I guess this kind of event is such a big event that it’s a year in the making in itself, at.

Least for.

At least a year. Right. So when did you have to book Spear? Was it more than a year?

About four years ago. Five years ago, Yeah. So we start quite a few years out. Yeah. Yeah. So this place was booked. Obviously, we’re now 20, 22, so we’re coming off the back of COVID. Yeah. So this was booked I think in 2017, 2018, and it was still being built. Wow. That’s that was a bit of a punt. But as you can see, it’s a great venue and it’s really, really fresh and new. So it’s it’s brilliant. So yeah, so that’s all been in planning for ages. Covid obviously muddle things around a little bit with Edinburgh because Edinburgh should have been the year before. We should have in London last year and all the speakers, everyone got a little bit muddled. But between those because we book everyone but we book everyone, you know, a year or two years ahead in advance. So this year is a kind of a bit of a mash up of what would have been 2021 and 2022.

But I mean, it must be is it only the headliner you have to book that far ahead or everyone does it? Isn’t there a risk of like your you’re perpetuating the same lectures because you don’t you’re working so far ahead, but whoever’s hot, you haven’t you’re not able to put in because you’re working.

Well, this is this is the beauty because we have a great team here. Yeah. And we all go to lots of conferences, lots of lectures, and we’ll keep our pulse, our finger rather on the pulse. And there’s a couple of guys on board who are phenomenal with this, and they really know what’s kind of kicking around, what’s what’s hitting the right mark.

So let’s say mission goes to a conference tomorrow and see someone, some Japanese guy who’s amazing. It’s going to be you’re telling me it’s going to be a minimum of two years. But these guys.

Have booked up Spears booked up for five years. Our speakers booked up 2 to 3 years ahead of time. Just the way we need to plan for it, because obviously we need to market it the year before. So we need to know by September of the year before who’s coming, because we’re putting to print to sell tickets for next year to engage. This is the headline act. So yeah, 18 months is an absolute minimum.

And how about how about the positioning of the conference as far as, you know, the stand at the level I mean, the tension between keeping it simple enough for for a newbie to sort of appreciate and making it complex enough for a veteran that must cross your mind.

All the time. Yeah, it does. And this year, we’ve this is one of the areas that we really wanted to focus on. So the BCD during COVID, everybody’s re-evaluated, haven’t we? So we’ve had time to sit down and look at it. And what we’ve gone is we really want to now have a fresh vision moving forward. And the vision really with the BCD is that we want to be core promoters of ethical cosmetic dentistry. We want to engage with our profession and we want our profession to be engaging in ethical cosmetic dentistry. We’re here to help support here to help educate, and we’re here to help get the message out about how to do things well. And then also we want to engage with the public and make the public aware and go look, ethical cosmetic dentistry is it’s not just, you know, what it’s like people nowadays who just go, Oh, I’ve done whitening, I’ve done six veneers on the front. Here we go. That’s cosmetic dentists. No, it’s not. You need to have the turkey teeth. And turkey teeth has kicked this off this year. So we’re trying to raise awareness with the public as well.

How are you doing that?

Are we doing this through lots of different media channels? We’re building relationships with all the media. But coming back to your point on how do we gauge for every single person? Yeah, we do that with the Thursday event specifically. So what we wanted to do first events are hands on days and there’s lots of different sessions where people can come along and get kind of they really get into the nitty gritty and the learning.

Choose the particular thing.

And that is where you get most of your learning. You know full well when you’re in sitting in a massive lecture theatre, you’re seeing the theatre that’s there. You, you learn, it’s inspirational. Yeah. When you actually doing a hands on this is stuff you learn that you’re going back in on. The next time you’re back in clinic you can implement. And so the first three sessions are really, really important and we have because there’s six seven this year though eight streams, it’s really easy to then cater for different abilities and skill sets. And that’s what we did this year, really focusing on the newbies who are coming in all the way up to, you know, the old farts like me who are going, we want that a little bit more. We want really to have our grey matter challenged. And we had a great session with Chris or Neil, Jerod, Ken Harris, where they were really picking apart cases that you only ever see once because only one ever walks in. And how do you deal with that? And it was great, the interaction. There was quite a lot of people on that one and interaction was fantastic. But you’ve got to be at a certain level to understand where they’re going from. So yeah, so that’s how we, we structure it.

So having, having done a lot of events myself, yeah, that one thing I almost let’s like a wedding or something isn’t it. That one thing I always think of in an event is that there’s going to be something that goes wrong in every event and you’ve got, you’ve got a kind of for me, at every event, when that thing goes wrong, I go, Oh, there it is. There it is. That’s the thing. So what’s gone wrong?

What’s gone wrong? We have managed to deal with everything, all right? We have had challenges. Everyone has challenges.

So what’s gone wrong on this particular one today? Probably give an example to running something this big.

Okay. The biggest one for me that’s really done my head in right is the doors between the theatre and the Trade Hall. They don’t say no, no, they stay open, but people keep going through them. And I’m sitting there moderating Frank’s beer and I have this door that opens and keeps opening closing with Frank Letts. You’re on the stage about 20 metres away, not even that ten metres away, and people coming through, chatting with their coffees. And I’m just I seriously, I was guilty. Am I allowed to swear I lost my shit? I’ve been going on all morning. Lock the door. Lock the door, lock the door. And, and everyone was. And at one point I went right. It got to the point I had to leave my moderating session and I was storming around using different certain emojis on on the WhatsApp, let’s put that way to get the people down and lock the doors. They couldn’t lock them. So then I got I said, Right, well, in that case, if you can’t lock them, then I want someone standing in front of them. So they had someone standing in front of them and then they bug it off and then and it went back to square one. So yeah, for me that was the the biggest headache today.

I was, I was talking about I looked at the, you know, the flag outside that says 18th annual conference and I think I’ve been to 17 of them. Yeah. And you have had a massive part in organising many of those. 17. What’s the difference being the President. Is it, do you feel the burden of that 100%. Is it because you’re the final decision maker? Well.

Look, when I’ve come into this, what I’ve always tried to do is I’ve tried to go, this is a team effort. This is not about I’m keeping the seat warm for a year. That’s all I am. I’m a custodian of the presidency. However, it’s kind of viewed that it’s kind of your conference as president, and so everyone puts that a little bit on you and they get you to make all those little decisions and they kind of almost step back and, well, I’ll let you make that decision. So you’ve got to make a lot more. And yet you do take ownership and you feel quite a lot of attachment to it and it gets quite personal. And so I’ve come here and I’ve gone. I really want everyone to have a great day like this morning. We spent a huge amount of time trying to get emotion in the opening ceremony because for me emotion is critical. If you have emotion, then you feel and you embrace and you become part of. So hopefully with the smoke, the the countdown, the Male voice choir, the very inspirational talk by Colin, it’s this all kind of brings it together. So so that for me is is was really personal but everything running running to clockwork and as it should does should do it never does but you know and gala dinner tonight. I’m glad you’re coming. It’s going to be amazing.

Can you can you when you might as well just tell me because by the time these guys are.

All right, massive big vodka luge. Oh, excellent. Covid safe vodka luge. And it’s going to be epic. Epic. So we’re looking forward to it. Yeah.

Fraser, thank you so much for taking the time. You’re very welcome. I know it’s your busiest day and you’ve taken the time to spend it with me, so.

I’m very appreciative as well.

Thanks a lot for doing it.

There you go. I’m being called back now. Cool, buddy. Thanks, buddy. Okay. Take care.

So this is the best Palmer.

Hey, buddy.

Hey, man. So, right at the end of day three, it’s. You know, I’ve been trying to get you all my podcasts for the last three years. And for some reason, nothing.

I’ve got nothing interesting to say. Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone’s got something interesting. But you just got accredited on this one. Yeah, me through. Why would you want to be accredited?

You know, I’ve been asked that question a few times this weekend.

Yeah.

I guess inspiration came from when I did Krystle’s course back in 2012. Yeah. And he introduced BCD and the accreditation process back then. Yeah. And when I looked at the pathway, I just thought, Oh, this looks pretty exciting. It’s a British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. You know, it’s not so much as just paying a monthly membership fee. And I spoke to James Russell and he said, look, you know, it’s it’s not the destination of getting the accreditation. It’s the journey and the learning, the learning aspects of that journey. So, yeah, once I started, I did. Three cases in one year, and then I got lazy and took a break for a couple of years. And then they emailed me saying, Look, we’re going to change your process, so you might as well stick to the old, old protocol and just hand in your last two cases. So yeah, we’re just sort of finish it off.

And so I guess I get the thing about sort of playing against yourself and, you know, achieving something. But is there more to it than that? Are you going to now market that to patients or do you think patients don’t get that?

I think to from a patients perspective, saying I’m the president of the BCD means. And sounds more than I’m an accredited member. It’s a very personal it’s a very Dental.

I’m sorry to say thank you, but you’re not going to be any time soon.

Being president of anything.

But they’re not many dentists very accredited. So it’s a communication story, right, to patients. You could you could communicate that one of the few dentists, you know what I mean? To me? That it would make sense to also have it as a patient story.

Yeah. Yes. Look, I know loads of dentists who who may not have the wards and these kind of posts behind their name, and they’re very, very successful because from a patient’s perspective, all they’re interested in is are your nice dentists. Are you going to hurt me and are you going to give me the result? I don’t care about the letter of your name and all the rest of it. Sure, this is more of a personal thing, isn’t it? And you know, I started that journey. It’s done now.

What about this? This event would like this particular one. How was Frank Spear? How was how was the education in general for you? To be honest.

Overall education, absolutely fantastic. Provided you control your your alcohol. You take the night.

Before.

In a frank spear world.

Class to speak before.

Yes.

So this was different. I thought.

It was certainly very.

Different.

Very different. I mean, that guy, well, he’s a is restorative trained prostate period. Trained as well. You know, world class, international, well seasoned lecturer is seen it all, done it all. I guess when you when I’ve seen him on other instances, it’s generally full math rehabs you know, reconstruction of advanced bone loss cases, you know, grafting and, you know, proper, proper dentistry.

No.

He is a composite veneer.

Not composer artistry. No.

They’re dealing with man’s dentistry.

Which you’re doing a lot of yourself. Right? You’re doing a lot of full, full mouth cases. Yeah. Do you find that more satisfying than the composite? Well, yes.

One, it’s more stimulating. Is it? Yeah. You mean makes you think a composite? Look, it’s. Yes. You know, when I first started off that was stimulating learning the science behind it. But a lot of it is art. Yeah, it’s very it’s very. There’s a lot of dexterity involved. Yeah. You know, especially for your simple aesthetic cases where function is not a huge. Factor in that case was more of a cosmetic case. When you’re starting to do full math, rehabs, minimal prep veneers or treating patients that are actually, you know, they want minimal prep stuff, that then becomes slightly more challenging.

So I think.

To get to the crux of it. I sometimes say that, you know, you love teeth. You know, you adore dentistry, right. But to get to the crux of what is it about dentistry that you adore? Yeah, because it’s not Emily yesterday who is very, very, very good with composite. And she says that she’d rather not ever do the composite. She’d rather do the. The aligning and parcel the composite to someone else. And so for you, what is it that is your love? Is it is your love? I know it’s a combination of many things, but is your love the problem solving, treatment, planning, piece of it, or is that is there a degree of carpentry meccano like the drilling part? And fitting things together part? Or is it the social side of the patient and how happy they are at the end of it? And I know it’s a combination. Yeah. Yeah. But but to go to like what you’re saying now, how, how much you like full mouth work or so and you’ve got this ortho MSC as well. Yeah. So you know because you know, you look at an ortho before and after and it’s profound, right. Okay. It’s a year between the two pictures. Yeah, but it is profound. So if we’re talking about profound change also makes profound change. The planning is very interesting. Yeah. There’s 11 ways to skin that cat, right? Yep. So why isn’t author your love? You know? I mean, so what is it about formal rehab that you like more than ortho? When I have a question.

Okay, so when I say full mat rehab, a lot of them do have orthodontic treatment.

As well.

As. Well, you know, when I first started off, I was doing composites and I kind of built a reputation on composites. It was generally about aesthetics, wasn’t it? Yeah. You know, getting that invisible class three, Class five, whatever it is, single veneer, multiple composite veneers, getting that invisible restoration. Shiny. Shiny. Yeah, of course. Microfilm, hashtag. And then I started my my M.S. in Ortho back in 2012, where I had to make a decision. It was either going to be surgical implants or ortho. My brother was replacing implants. He’s got a masters in implants and he’s a phenomenal surgeon. So it would have been quite daft for me to do it. So I thought, Right, is he got a master’s implant?

Amazing. I don’t know that.

He’s a he’s got those of the.

Talented Palmer boys.

That’s.

Gone.

Now. So yeah, back then when I first started off, it was all about creating that invisible restoration. That’s what kind of triggered, you know. Yeah. Stimulated me. Now, actually, and the main thing for myself is when I’m finished a case. I am going back to my and assessing whether my diagnostic and my treatment planning skills were on point.

What you could have done better like that that piece.

Yeah well that.

And did I diagnose a problem correctly and did I treat it in the most appropriate way? So when I do a big case ortho restorative perio, for example, if I’ve diagnosed it properly, treatment plan, do it properly, finish the case off. I’m more chuffed about my thought processes at the beginning than the actual end result, if that makes sense.

There’s a lot of it.

Might be lab influenced. Some things are at your control. Patients don’t wear their retainers, teeth start slipping. Yes. And the more complex cases you do, the more you know, the more complex the problems are afterwards as well. Yeah. So what stimulates me more now is, is was my diagnosis correct? And was the treatment plan appropriate for for that patient?

And, you know, like, you know, that thing tips is about staying in the same practice for a long time. And I think Frank said yesterday as well, it’s treating the same patient for 30 years. And you can see what you’ve been how many years and. The same fact in ACORN.

For 12 years graduate in 2010. I’ve been there, did my 12 years.

As I see those cases, you put up like seven year, eight year composite cases, right? Yeah. So we’re going to take you through a situation that you looked at something eight years on or ten years time on and realised you’d made a mistake.

I’ll tell you something even better than that. I get to see my brothers, what, 12, 12 years older than me? I get to see his records that he’s started off because he’s been.

But you’re not sure what he did.

I know. I can tell you when I can. I know which which are his composite.

Because what he used.

To do, because he’s kind of taught me so similar style and seeing his post ups and forget that even better, the principle that he brought the practice of I’ve got to see his records. So I’m I get to see 30, 40 year old wrinkles.

Yeah, but you don’t know what 40 years ago it looked like, Gillian. But that’s important. I get it.

The performance of materials.

I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it. I do get that. So. So tell me something you’ve learned then from from looking at that like a typical like.

You’ve got to be meticulous. Dr. Cooper was meticulous, my brothers. Meticulous. They’ve taught me to be meticulous. If you’re meticulous, if you’re precise, you’re going to get good results.

Yeah. Yeah. And the errors do compound, don’t they? Like small errors end up as is much bigger errors afterwards. And and, you know, we see that with composite like a tiny little, little little imperfection in the composite can amplify six months and 12 months amplifies a big black dot. Yep. And and as you always point out, in all these cases we see that where there haven’t been ultra meticulous and how that’s going to turn out and the upkeep of it and all that. But I was I was more after like you realised not to do something like what? What is it like a way of doing it that you, for instance, with me, we know we talk about proximal staining. Yeah. Because I saw it in the, maybe in the three years that I was in that same practice it was staining came up as the main issue. Yeah. And then to be more meticulous within the proximal. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that with my own eyes, you know. So what was there with you? Recession.

Recession. Soft tissue management, soft tissue control for indirect work, soft tissue management for implant work that we’ve seen with my brothers stuff, you know, pushing the boundaries of composite, for example. So the tooth where cases that are treated with composite and you start to realise actually was that the right material in that particular mouth, you know, if.

Americans would call it transitional bonding for that.

Reason. Yeah, but you could do that. It creates its own problems because quite often you open up a patient’s OCD, the where the composite away, you’ve lost the OCD, and then it’s like, what do I do now? So either becomes a darling or you’re doing a full set of restorations again.

You know, you teach composite, right? And I think there is a massive sort of lack of knowledge as far as shortened teeth that people lend them. And, you know, you put this out all the time that the teeth shortened for a reason and people lengthen them and then and then that’s can be an occlusal problem. Now, our responsibility in composite teaching to teach occlusion and then you see it a lot. You see cases with these Centrals that are worn and someone just lengthens them. Yep.

So you think they’re worn for a reason? They’re in that position for a reason.

They’re faster than the enamel. Or it could even be an early like problem, right, if it catches a lateral or something. But but it’s weird because competition doesn’t really have inclusion management as part of it. We do. Do we do? I know we do, but it’s still not that much, right? It’s like an hour, right?

That’s because. Because they’re coming to learn composite. I know. I know. And they can go on another collision course and we.

Can’t teach everything from and.

We’re pretty frank. You’ve got to also accept or you’ve got to you’re going to hope the the your delegate delegate is going to have some sound knowledge on occlusion and know what case do you treat and what not case not to treat. But you do have to give them give people some advice. But look, I know so many people that will quite happily slap composite everywhere. You know, the most dysfunctional of maths and are quite happy to treat the the results that the results of that for me, you know, being paralysed by perfection, you know, I’ve kind of been trained to be more comprehensive interdisciplinary work. So you might look at cases in a different way. And yeah, there are cases where the patients can say, No, I don’t want two years worth of author, no, I don’t want to stick an implant here and stabilise occlusion here. I just want that those six veneers please. But as long as you have consented for it, and more importantly as a dentist, you’ve got to acknowledge that these problems may arise. Hence going back to your diagnostic and treatment planning skills and then what decision is chosen thereafter? It’s it’s been made with intent.

Yeah. Yeah. On purpose, not by mistake. Yeah, well, you’re not lying about the parallels by perfection. Yeah, because many Smile Makeover part two is four years in the making, and it’s been loads and loads of lost hair in my head for that one. But hopefully we’ll have a big announcement on that soon. We will. We will. But thanks a lot for taking that in. It’s really hard for you to talk to me.

Any time, Buddy.

Says, You know, we’re sitting here on day two of BCD and Frank Spear’s been talking all day. We’ve been. We’ve been.

Watching.

Yes, yes, yes. Have you seen him before?

No, It’s the first time. Yes.

Oh, What do you think?

I’m very impressed. You know, I somehow had a little bit of I was questioning what type of dentistry he was going to talk about and how he was with her, his expertise, how he was going to bring the minimally invasive part of that, because.

He’s not known for.

Minimal innovation. He’s not he’s more about restorations, form of rehabilitation and the occlusion thing, you know, all the bits. But I’m super impressed. I’ve definitely taken tips that I can work with the next day.

Like what was the that kind of resonated with you?

One of the things I have always believed in is in being conservative, and I find it very frustrating when somebody else, another colleague especially, finds, for example, an apical lesion and they intend to re treat the tooth or extract the tooth. Yeah. One of the things that he was talking about this morning about just give it time, let’s see what happens in 12 months time, in 24 months time and so on. Just basically monitoring. I think that is a key thing that I would of course I’m practising it, but I will discuss with my colleagues as.

I hear someone like Frank say It makes it more real, isn’t it?

Exactly. But you feel that you’re doing the right thing.

Well, he said that I hadn’t ever considered was the idea that if if the patient manages to keep that tooth for another six years, technology will move forward. And it’s something you don’t really think about that know that’s actually true. In six years time, implant dentistry will be a different thing to what it is today is what’s possible will be different.

And also taking into consideration what the patient wants. Sometimes they don’t want to take it to that or they don’t have the means to pay for an implant. And we even win. Two or three years of the patient can be saving towards the implant towards that makes it possible. Is possible. Yeah. And as as he says he’s going to make it, well, it is believable that we care for the patient.

Yeah. So you’re now part of the BCD organisation, right?

Yes.

So what is it you’re doing? What’s your.

Particular. I’m a committee member for Educational Committee and I’m standing up as a board member tomorrow. So hopefully I will be.

I’ll get my vote in. I’ll get my voted yes, please. So. So up to now, what does it mean to be part of the Education committee? What does that mean?

Well, we meet to talk about potential speakers for future events. This year, for example, I was very fortunate to be the organiser of our female leaders in dentistry event that it was absolutely amazing. So is that. Type of events that we’re trying to bring at the same time that we bring education, we also want to bring the social aspect of it, you know, networking, having fun with our colleagues. At the same time that we were learning. So yes, that’s good teacher for.

The if you have to if you had to put like a three day event like this and think about what bit of it is the most valuable bit you take. Obviously you’re seeing Frank Spear that’s going to inspire you. Yeah. You go to a hands on thing, you can actually learn something that you could literally do the next week. Yes, but the thing, the bit that you often forget is this bit, you know, the soft part, like you said, the socialising bit not only to have fun, but also, you know, you actually end up asking questions and learning from people outside of the actual learning environment. That’s why, you know, on our composite course we have this social part that when people don’t turn up to that social part, actually they feel like they’ve lost out. Because there’s one thing watching Depeche all day on the stage, but a different thing totally over a drink, having an asking a specific question. And he’ll say at that point something that you just not going to say on stage.

Yeah. I think you also form a different relationship with a speaker. Yeah, they become more real to you, right? They are more approachable, accessible. I think that’s why the Bayezid is so determined to making these social events in the majority of our events. We would like to bring that social component.

So in that female leaders thing, what did you do socially? What was the say?

Well, it was super fun because we had a female deejay. Oh, did you? We had a female DJ. We had.

All. It was like.

Yeah, I used a bit of everything, you know, We had a little bit of everything. A seventies music, eighties, nineties, Yeah, more recent music. It was amazing. And of course it was some beer. And so we managed to, to, to get our hands in some very, really lovely English sparkling wine. So yeah, it was amazing.

So we had, we had this series called Leading Ladies. Yes. And part of it was I started counting the number of guests that we’ve had on this podcast who are men and women, and guess what the ratio was?

I can’t imagine. I would like to say equal.

No, no more Ladies. 4 to 1 men.

Oh, 4 to 1. Yeah.

And when I saw that and you know, I’m actually trying to have more women on, right? You know, I’ve changed my position on it now. We’re actually trying to have more women on I but even then when I counted, it was a 4 to 1 ratio of men to women. And that’s why I thought, Oh, let’s do these compilation ones of the ladies and put all of them together just to just to have some more inspiration that way. Now, for someone like you, who now you just sold your practice. Yes. Yeah. You you’re a strong leader. Like I’ve seen you in practice. I’ve been to your practice. People like you, you, you motivate people and all of that. Much of your journey in the educational piece would have been different, would have would have accelerated if there were more women teaching.

I think quite a lot. Because you want to be relatable.

To identify to the.

Teacher, you want to be identified, you want that person to understand what you go through when you’re a mother. But they at the same time, you have a business. When you have an inspiration, you want to be better. You want to spend time learning. It’s always nice to know that the other person knows what you’re going through because they go through the same thing. You know, it’s a little bit like menopause. We talk about that between women. There is something that you wouldn’t discuss with them. It’s the same thing in dentistry in what is to be a mom or what is to have all the things to do apart from your dentistry. But at the same time you want to be in dentistry. So it is it is harder for a woman to be considered, I think, as a as a leader or as inspirational professional because we have so much competition without with men. What I was.

What? What do you.

Mean? Yeah. Because when you go and for example, you, you are like the event that I organised, I will be approaching companies and saying, which are your top female speakers? And I will find companies that said, Oh, actually I don’t have any female speakers. So that that was maybe because historically we have been busy running our families, running all the part of our lives rather than. To dentistry. Yeah.

That’s the reason, isn’t it?

It is, I think.

I think it’s partly that. Partly that there’s a second part that it’s almost like ladies are less likely to. To put themselves up somehow. There’s a, there’s a modesty or a like for a man to stand up and say, this is what I do and this is the size of my drill. It seems more natural than for some ladies.

Yes. Yes. Because you want to be considered as an equal, but you see that in many lines in life you are not considered an equal.

I don’t think it’s about consent. You don’t? Do you honestly think that in this in this environment here, some people are saying, oh, this lady isn’t equal to that man like you just thought that amazing practice. Right? And James Gornik just sold his amazing practice as an outsider. Someone else looking at it, whether it’s a man or a woman looking at it, no one’s going to say, Oh, Jean is less than James in any way.

Well, I yes, I think I don’t think we do find anybody saying that. I really hope we never find somebody saying that. I think you’re believing.

You’re out of the ordinary. A little bit of of women in that you’re you’re out there. You’ve got you’ve got your practice. You’re doing all the things you’re doing. And now you’re doing this, for instance, you’re a little bit out of the ordinary that you’ve put yourself in. You know, someone coming over from Mexico?

Yes.

To do that in a second language, you’re not a bit special in that sense, right? Thank you. But is there something that’s holding other women back? I don’t think that the system is I don’t think the system.

I don’t think is the system. I think is is is is the first thing that The first.

Thing is that for sure. Right. You’re running a house, you’re running a practice. You run a lecturing career on top of those.

But this support this support is supporting your personal life, is supporting your business life. Like, for example, I have a very supportive husband, but in the practice I have an amazing team behind me so I can I don’t have to be in the practice for the practice to run properly. I don’t have to be at home for my house to be run properly. I have a nanny, you know, in support and believing that you can count with these people to support you. That gives you the confidence to say, Actually, I want to do this. I think I’m capable of doing that. Don’t take me wrong. I doubt sometimes myself, I sometimes feel that people believe more in me, that I believe in myself, that it’s like the imposter imposter syndrome.

Imposter syndrome is a feature of growing quickly, that if you’re doing if you’re doing something and growing quickly, imposter syndrome is one of the features of that. Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe, maybe women suffer with it more than men do. Maybe.

I think so. Yes, I will. I will think so. But one thing that I know is changing is that that perception of saying, yes, we want more female speakers I was talking to yesterday to to one of the lecturers and I, I was talking about my event and said we don’t want to call it female leaders in dentistry event maybe anymore because it doesn’t matter if you are female or male, you are a leader in dentistry. I said, Who will you put forward? I said, I don’t have anybody. But you know what? After speaking to you, I’m going to look in my network to see who will be perfect for us to work with. So I think it’s just it’s changing and it’s changing in a very positive way. I think that is one of my main inspirations to be in the back seat and become a board member, hopefully tomorrow.

Do you think one day you’ll be the president?

Well, yes, why not?

I love your style. Yes, I love your style. Why not?

Why not? Why not? Yes.

One thing one thing that’s been a bit of a bugbear of mine has been this question of, you know, women in dentistry. Yes. The the there are some women in dentistry having a really tough ride. Yes. And it’s not the dentists, it’s the nurses, the receptionists, the hygienist.

The.

Support team. And one thing in your practice, it’s actually it’s all female.

Yes, we are.

I seem.

To remember. Yes.

But in your practice, it was this sort of very career orientated sort of feeling about it. You know that your manager. What a professional.

Amanda. Amanda.

What a professional. And when we deal with her regarding Enlightened or whatever, or even when I see her, you know, I got the sense that she had career progression in her life she was proud of.

Or.

Proud of what she was achieving in work.

She she’s she.

Puts in a lot of.

Very hard working that that that’s.

In a lot of practices. You don’t get that in so much as practice seem to be centred around that and. And it’s almost like everyone else is there on minimum wage that you can possibly pay them to just do the little bits that they can and let this dentist carry on. And you hear some terrible stories about the way staff are treated. Oh, definitely. But you’ve managed to you know as well as making your patients happy, make yourself happy.

I think it’s because I give them the respect and the place that they deserve. You know, I, I always say to my to my staff, what would you like to do? Is there cause you want to go to let me know? We’re always happy to support you. You know, it’s is is progression. But not only my progression is your progression where you want to go. We have had team members that have left the practice because they have gone back to university or they have made a career change. You know, it is not because we’re not a good team to work with because they’re moving on and moving on. Exactly.

Yes. It’s a lovely example. Tell me about now that you’ve sold the practice. Yes. You’re still there, right? You still have. How many more years do you have to be there?

Four years. Four years in total, Yes.

How does it feel now that you’re not the boss anymore?

It’s odd, I have to say. It’s not that as easy as one thing. The transition. It is a transition. You have to get used to it.

You have to ask for permission.

You have to ask for permission.

Give me an example of something you would have just actioned straightaway. Whereas now you have to ask for permission.

As simple as. We had a beautiful humidifier at the practice that, you know, with this aroma for your cigars. Not at all. But I said to Amanda, Amanda, we need to buy a table to put it on. Oh, yeah. I will ask permission to buy that. And it’s like, what? It’s just a £20 table from Amazon, you know? But it is what it is.

That must make you angry.

Another thing that. That that is is is going to be a big change is the way that we celebrate Christmas at the practice. Because I’m very old, you know oh I love champagne parties and things and that And now you’ve been told, well, you have only £50 per person and you know, what am I going to do with £50 per person? You know, but I’m sure we will. We will manage. Yeah. We’ll do something special for them.

That’s tough.

Man. It is.

Tough. Yes.

I guess you could always top it up like.

Oh, of course I will top it off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m already saving for that.

But I hear you. But I hear you. I hear you. I’m trying to think about it. Enlightened. I had that. I mean, I think there’s one, one issue where it’s. It’s like at the £20 Amazon table where it’s annoying. Yes, but there is another issue that this bishopsgate would not have gotten to where it’s gotten and the way it’s got I mean, it’s just everything about that practice. I’ve been there a few times, right? I feel the vibe about that. You’ve made certain moves at certain times to get to where you got to. Exactly how much of those moves would have been delayed and not allowed if there was a third party saying yes, no, yes, no. And I know you you’re kind of a passionate kind of person and a bit like me, if I if I’m excited about something, I’m like, let’s do that now and then. Even if it doesn’t make sense. Yes. Yeah. Because I want to make that thing happen. And it’s interesting to reflect back and think going backwards, if you had to ask for permission for every move you made.

We would not be where we are.

Now. You wouldn’t be where you are now.

No, but that is the beauty of the years in a practice that you you grow it to a point when you think, okay, now I want to do something different, be involved more in the bhakti, do some more speaking for a line, you know, different things where I think, you know what? I need somebody now to help me. The progression of the practice because the practice is keeps progressing. One of the main the big examples of it is we I saw the practice in March. By September we had already two new dentists that I wanted to bring since last year, but I’ve been so yeah, journey and really and I’ve been so busy that I haven’t had the time to to think, okay, what is the next step? I know the next step is to bring more clinicians, but oh, I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. Whereas now I said.

Could you expand it?

You made it bigger.

Yes. So I said, Guys, I want to four more days, clinical days. And they say, okay, do not leave it to us. And they do it. They help me with that.

You must have known you were going to sell it while you were making it bigger. And I have to be strangely honest.

My the first time I thought about selling it was when we were in the first lockdown. I enjoyed my home. I enjoyed spending time with my family. I. And I thought.

There’s another side to life.

There’s another side to life. I enjoy life. For example, the video consultations, the sort of things happening behind dentistry, let’s say. So that is the first time I thought, why not? So that is when the process started.

And then is there any aspect of responsibilities that being taken away from you that are actually good, that you’re happy?

I’m very pleased.

Like what?

We had a serious inspection.

You had nothing.

To do about six weeks ago. I didn’t have anything to do with it. Of course, I supported my my team. You know, I help out with the radiology folder. I was there to sign papers. I did my whatever they asked me to do. But the corporate was sold to I don’t know if I love to say dentists. They were there all the time. You know, They’re the ladies that they’re for. Yeah. What’s the compliance team was was there, and they didn’t let us alone. You felt. We felt that we were accompanied throughout and I didn’t have to even be the practice to on that secrecy inspection. But having said that, one of the comments that we got that Amanda was told by the inspector is I don’t doubt that your practice was already amazing before you sold to dentists and the secrecy of some of the audits that we run that were no dentistry. So he still said we Exactly. We did it. So yes, that was great.

Did you feel that loss feeling people talk about like you’ve sold your baby?

No yet, and I don’t think I will because.

Did you start it from school? What did you buy?

Was bankrupt when I bought it. So I had to build up an only patient.

And how many.

Years? The reputation? 12 years. 12 years for.

Such an amazing achievement.

He had a very bad reputation. The practice with all these pliers. Because the previous pain level pain. You reach a point that because directory will not sell me if I was in pain straight away.

Yes.

So because I remember you from when when we had our podcast episode, I remember asking you you’ve got you’re doing so many Invisalign like, what’s your marketing machine? And you kept on saying, just we just do good work and people recommend us. So like you turned that around from a bad reputation practice exactly where you got it. Yes. One of the busiest Invisalign centres in the country visits enlightened centres in the country. The bits are like.

Exactly, yeah, of course.

Massive achievement. You should be very proud.

Thank you.

You really should. So lovely speaking to you. Thanks a lot for taking the time.

No, thank you for inviting.

Me and are really already enjoying this. Hopefully tonight we’re going have a great.

Of course we will. And it’s always so nice to speak to you so And.

Thanks to you. Thank you.

So, Kayleigh, so thank you from Dental with me at BCD. K you kind of here on on behalf of dental beauty in a way as well. And you’ve sold what, 60% of of kids dental to them and now we’ve got this sort of new roll out of practices. And last time I spoke to you, you were about to open you were saying ten more practices. Was was the plan. How far are you with that?

Okay. So obviously, when the deal took place in March, the master plan was to grow and yeah, ten clinics is, is was all for me. It was a realistic number. And you know, it’s actually a little bit more difficult than you think doing that. Sure. And, you know, we’re now into the actual reality of the situation and we are now into November.

How many of you go.

And so we’ve got five up to.

Now, five new.

Ones. No. So we’ve got our original three. Yeah. We’ve now completed and opened two more and they’re running. Where are they. So they’re in Alderley edge and I’ve got two lovely partners for they’re a couple Colwell and Jade who are amazing and they’re running that clinic beautifully. And then we’ve got Knutsford now, and that literally opened only a couple of weeks ago and that was with our new partner, Andy McLean. And he’s an amazing clinician and I know that clinic is going to do super well.

Yeah, of course.

And then we’ve been trying to acquire a clinic in Liverpool for the last six months, believe it or not. And it’s just the property, it’s a squat property and it will be a complete greenfield site and it’s taken six months to acquire. Now we didn’t envisage that. So we’re in a situation where that should have been up and running by Christmas. It’s now going to probably be March, April and the timeline moves on.

And so what’s been holding that up?

Just the just property, old property issues. And it’s just like, kill me now because all I want to do is grow. You know, the funds are there, the money’s there, the clinicians are there. And Kosh, who’s one of our associates, you know, he’s going to be the partner of that clinic. And then we’ve got an agreed site in Bolton. Again, just going through the legals currently, it’s just things just take that little bit longer and you don’t envisage that when you when you start this journey and we’ve got a final clinic in Bramhall in Stockport.

Stockport.

And again I’ve been going, okay, but again we’re just going through the legals of acquiring the site first and then we need to build the clinic, which is generally formal, another squat, another squat. So what my model is, is literally based currently just purely on squats and.

Why.

Control and the ability to have a fresh start at that site. The patients understanding that this is what they’re signing into right from day one, I believe like there will be a time where I would really like to acquire existing clinics as well. But it’s tricky because you acquire existing clinics, you actually acquire existing problems and existing staff and sometimes they may not be aligned with what I want to do.

And so the partner person is is got skin in the game, right?

Yeah, 100%, 40%.

40% of that particular clinic.

That particular clinic.

And then so what are you thinking is going to be the time from when that a new squat launches to profitability. Is it very quick.

Yes. So to be honest with you, our progress has been a little bit slow initially as well, because, you know, our investors were very cautious because my my business plan was. Bullish. And, you know, I’m saying we’re going to make profit from not day one, essentially, but we’re going to make your maybe a positive profit month to month three in that, right? Yeah. And they’re like, he joking like and they’ve got 300 plus clinics around Europe. Every greenfield site they open, they’re like, we’re in profit month seven or month eight.

Which is still compared to real. Well, when I say real business compared to non dental businesses, six months seven months is extraordinary. Two weeks in profit. So so you’re in a hurry to get it into profit in month two. Well, yeah, asking a lot. It’s asking a lot of the marketing team. I think it is a squat.

And so we launched Altrincham Alderley Edge and that’s been launched now three months of we’re in positive EBITDA.

So what’s, what’s now your new role Because while it was your own three clinics, yes, you are definitely the producer, the one doing the most dentistry.

Yeah, of course.

And so when in a new clinic, is your role training the partners into that dental way of.

Yeah, of course. So like for me now I’m doing three clinical days. Yeah. Wanting to really put that down to two if I can in the next 12 months. Only because I love the dentistry and I don’t want to finish that and I don’t want to stop that. But yeah, heavily based on really spending time with the partners. You know, I’ve got some partners like we’ve spoken about, like Andy McLean, who, you know, he’s much, much.

More he’s going to hit the ground.

Running so he knows what he’s doing. I don’t need to hold his hand and get him through that process. But I’ve got other partners that have never run a clinic before. I’ve never been a part of anything apart from KISS. And so those guys are really want to kind of go, I’m here to support you, here to help you, and here to ensure that no matter what happens at this point now, you know, you you will be able to run this and I will be there. And so that’s a big part in what how.

Are you finding the transition for yourself as a as an operator? It’s transitioning to this new role.

Yeah, it’s it’s tricky because I’m a dentist and I just you know, I’m my biggest comfort area is just doing teeth sitting in my room, do my teeth. And, you know, when I’m having to deal with lots of meetings and partners and this and that and the other, I genuinely do feel sometimes like, just give me back my teeth really, because.

I find I find in life, though, when you when you do get out of your comfort zone like that, that sort of cliche that people talk about where you do get out of your comfort zone. Yeah, you only realise how important that was later, years later. Yeah. When when the when you reap the rewards of, of that when you’re actually going through it. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s uncomfortable. Right. It’s uncomfortable. You know you’re out of your comfort zone, you’re not doing what you’re used to. Yeah. And so I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t sort of worry too much about the fact that it’s uncomfortable. But, but yeah. That transferring the things about Kailash that are, that are special to this new role each you have to look at each new thing you do and think, why am I the right person to do this? Yeah. Yeah. Because if a patient is put in front of you and you’re going to talk to them about 20 veneers. Yeah, you do that, like with your eyes closed. Drinking water. Yeah. Why is that? Because you’re good with people. Because you’re good at presenting stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So then, so then it’s got to be when you now talk to a partner, a dentist, you have to now present the opportunity to the dentist, right? Yeah. And you know, I went through this myself. Yeah. I was very good with patients. I thought because I’m very good with patients, I’m going to be very good with dentists if there are two different animals.

Yeah.

But when a patient sits in your chair, he’s implicitly saying, I trust you. Yeah. Whereas we’re trained as dentists, we’re trained not to trust. That’s part of our training isn’t to question everything. Right? So, you know, I think you shouldn’t worry too much about it. You should just keep on doing what you’re doing.

Yeah. And I do think, like, you know, as as I’ve gone along and, you know, I think things like my private vet scheme at the clinics is really helped because it’s allowed these clinicians who are now becoming partners in my business, it’s allowed them to know whether they do trust me or not. So then when I sit down with them and I say, Oh, caution, Nabeel or Calum or whoever, listen, I think this clinic would be perfect for you. They they’re literally like, okay, that’s what you think, Let’s do it, you know? And that’s lovely. It’s like a.

Lovely. So let’s talk about career pathway because we were just discussing if someone’s just qualified. Yeah. How long does it take them to do your private scheme. Yeah. And let’s say they’re very good and they take on the way you train them and all that. How long will it take them to go from just qualified private vet to the point of becoming a partner. How long would you say was the shortest period that that could be? So if.

You look at for instance, Kush and Nabeel, who are probably my youngest partners, so Coach has been with us now nearly three years, So he started his private vet and.

Straight out of college.

Graduate is from Latvia. So like in the UK. Yeah. Came straight to. But to the UK and did year one with us, which was a salaried position and year two which was a salaried position and then to fee per item at the end of year two and just be prior to a normal kind of split 45, 55 split and a private clinic. And you know, at that point doing well, I would say quite, quite advanced dentistry from, from the offset really, and not initially from that but year one. Year two is where he learned that and specifically from myself and some of my key clinicians. So then year three, we’ve already we’ve offered him.

Yeah, he is rather special.

He is he is rather special. But then if we look at Nabeel, that’s the fastest he’s the fastest. Nabeel came towards again on the private VC scheme. He we only did one year of the private VC scheme, but he’d already graduated and worked in clinics previously, so his experience level was higher. Yeah. So then I say, Well, I want you to be with us. I want you to grow with our group. But I also want to don’t want to do is just throw you in the deep end. You don’t understand how this works. You don’t understand what we do and how we do it. I want you to have a salaried position for a year. I don’t want to worry about money. I want you to just me focus on the clinics, focus on dentistry, focus on doing things right. And he took that on board and he took a large pay cut, if you can imagine, to go from fee copyright.

Fee per item, associate.

Associate to to a salaried position of.

I’ll break it down. How much do you pay them. 5050 K Yeah, but I guess you’ve got to look at that as education, the education that you’re being paid for. That’s the way you have to look at it.

And that’s what I say. I said to anyone that even would ever consider it. If you consider it and you begrudge every day you’re there because you know you could earn more money and don’t do it. Yeah, because you’re not in the right mindset to learn to be there, to be present and to think I’m getting value for this. All your thinking is is paying me a measly 50 grand.

Yeah.

And that person isn’t right. But the person that does look at it and go, you know what? I’m going to put everything into this. It’s a year or two years out of my life, but at the end of it, I’m going to see massive value.

Yeah.

Then that’s the person.

I think Prav and I used to talk about this for years. If if it was teachable or not. And we and travel, as you say to me, because yes, he’s got so many clients. Right. You said of all of his clients, you’re the one who is converting more and all of this. And and it’s interesting because now you’re sort of proving that it’s teachable.

Yeah.

We take two people straight out of college who are now producing extraordinary amounts of work. Yeah, quality work.

Some of these guys pay, you know, a gross in a hundred K plus a month to.

Three years.

Out, two or three years out. And so and I’m not saying that’s all me, by the way, some of these guys are special in their own right as well.

It’s picking them to be seeing that potential in some ways.

For me, it’s seeing the potential. It’s giving them the right pathways, given the right educational approach and then keeping nurturing them. Like just this week, I got all my associates. There was like 15 of them, and we had an evening of just talking about treatment and treatment uptake and and talking about ethical approaches to to consultations. And and, you know, and I do believe that all these little things that you can kind of discuss, give them tips, give them tricks, give them the things that have worked for me over the years. And I’m not saying I’m a golden goose, but what I can do.

You’re a resource, your resource for a patient when let’s say I present you someone right now, one of these student reps and I say, look, this, this lady, she’s she’s interested in becoming one of your PhDs. How good do you think you are at seeing sort of spotting potential in someone? And what are you looking for? Is it purely like, astute?

Yeah.

So I think the dental part that’s that’s not here.

There they teach that. Yeah. I think the key thing is attitude and I think so.

What is the attitude?

So for me it’s difficult, isn’t it? I’ll be honest. I’ve had people come to me and I get contacted all the time. I want I want to do this. I want to do that. And the first thing is you talk them through the process and the ones that are bit like, Oh, but I didn’t expect the salaries to be so low. I didn’t.

Help outside. Outside of the money. Outside the money.

But that is. Yeah, but that being that first bit tells you a lot because they don’t see that there’s no value, they’re not seeing the volume what you’re offering. Yeah. Yeah. Because they’re tying it to a monetary figure. Yeah. And if I said to the right person I’m going to pay you nothing for this year, the right person would say, I’m still.

Got your hand off, I’m.

Still coming because I know the value I will get out of. It is colossal against not getting paid for a year. I’m not saying anyone would take that, but what I’m saying to you is that tells you a lot right from the offset.

One thing that’s interesting, not not, not that they’re actually comparable. Yeah, but you could go pay an institution 50 grand and get an MSI, or you could go work in one of your schemes, get paid 50 grand, and both are education. There’s no doubt they’re both education. Of course, they’re different types of education, but both are education. And if you look at it as education, suddenly it seems like an amazing deal that you’d be paid to be educated.

Exactly. And then.

You’re right. That’s a big thing.

It’s a big thing. But then the next thing I always say is really when I’m talking to them and I’m and I will always say, I will always go with that. The person who’s the least keen, not least motivated. It’s wrong to say that, but the person that’s not so full of themselves, a little bit more humble, a little bit more kind of reserved. I want that person. It’s funny.

Because that’s not.

You, is it? No, And.

I’m not looking for little, little K.

I’m not looking for me because ultimate little mes, I’ll want to do what I do. And that’s not that’s not good conducive for the growing business. And so the odd little me is fine if you can control them, but you can’t sometimes control those guys and they get What are you saying? What are.

You saying? If, if you turned up and applied for a job with you. Yeah.

You wouldn’t give them. Well, probably wouldn’t take it because I’d be like, this guy is killing me off. Like, you know. Yeah, he’s. He’s like a fucking carbon copy of me, you know? And that’s, that is difficult because I’m not after that type of person. What I’m after is someone that’s loyal. I’m after someone that will respect the brand, will respect what I say. It’s not it’s not a regime. It’s it’s, it’s always a discussion. But I also.

I think overall, you’re easy to work for. Yeah, because I’ve spoken to enough of your team that I can see people generally happy.

Yeah.

And I just you do you try hard on that right? You try to be happy workplace. That’s actually part of Dental whole thing. Yeah. As the patient walks in, everyone’s happy and you can’t. People can’t pretend to be happy. It’s one of those things they have to be happy. So let’s talk about exit. So you’ve done this sort of hybrid thing. Some people just sell their business. Yeah, and they’re out. Other people say they sell their business and they sort of have to stay for two or three years, even though they’re kind of out. Yeah, but you’ve done this sort of half way thing where you’ve sold kind of half your business. Yeah. And it’s an interesting thing because someone said to me, Here, take some money, cash off the table and here’s a cash injection and taken right into the next level. It’s kind of in a way, actually one of the best ways of doing it, because you still you’re still playing the game.

Exactly.

You’re not high risk in the game.

Yeah. Like, listen, I’ve high balled my life. I suppose you would describe it for 20 years. You know, Sole trader never went to limited. Literally everything was on a PG personal guarantee. Obviously over those years we’ve paid all the loans and things up. But when I first started KISS, there was a million quid in Dad, you know, when I was 24. So at that point, you know, you are there’s a lot of pressure and you get to a point in 20 years on you thinking to yourself, well, of course, like, listen, pay, I’ve had a great life. Dentistry has afforded me a lovely life and I’m super thankful for the profession for that. But I’ve also got to understand is at some point, you know, you want some security, you want some things, you want cash in the bank, you want to.

You want return on the.

Sweat. Yeah, you do. And but then what you also don’t want at the tender age of 42 is to be like packing it all in and thinking, what am I going to do now?

And that’s a thought experiment. What would you do? Let’s say you’ve won the lottery and $1,000,000,000 landed in your in your account.

What would it be?

Thought experiment. Yeah. What would you do?

I think obviously I’d able to take things off the back burner a little bit, but I’d probably I’m not geared that way, so I’d probably still do ability I’d probably go on probably slightly more lavish holidays, maybe get private jets.

How could it get more lavish?

Just more private jets, I think. Just more private jets and bigger yachts. Well, private, but essentially, like, you know, it’s one of those that I’d still want to do bits. I’d want to work.

I’d probably. I know, I know, I know. But look, I’ve asked this question many times and people say holidays and they say charity. Yeah, they say that I kind of want to take those two things off the table.

I’ll put charity in as well.

Just for.

Sure. I said, What?

People tend to say those two things, and once you take those two things, most of them, by the way, just haven’t had a break. They’re working so hard. They just need a break. Yeah, but once you take those two things off, off the table, you know, knowing yourself is quite interesting because what would it what would some guy, you know Indeed. My partner. Yeah. He’d go running. Yeah. He’d do yoga all day if he could. Yeah. And some, some of us like maybe me and you. I don’t know if it’s you, but we’re not sure. I’m not sure.

What I always.

Be happiness for me, if I didn’t.

I always think like time taking. Getting back a bit of time is be happiness for me. You know, like I always think about it and I always wake up in the morning and have a personal training session at 6:00 and I finish my gym session at seven and then I shower and get ready. I have a little bit of a minute in bed and then I get to work and then I’ll do my patience. I’ll have all my meetings and then I’ll finish that and then I’ll go and see my kids and they’ll spend a couple of hours with them. And then that’s done and I’ll come home and I’ll eat and I’ll repeat. And that’s my.

Life. What time do you go to bed?

Usually like 11, 12:00. So it’s a long day. And it’s one of those days that if I could then say, actually I’ll have a personal training session at 8:00 in the morning and I’ll, I’ll maybe go to work at 12. Yeah. And I’ll have a bit of a chill that morning and then I might do some patients till two or three and then I’ll go pick the kids up from school instead. And it allows me, I suppose.

The interesting thing is you could just do that.

And then I could. I could. But I think the pressure and as you’ve said it, you know, I’ve done the partial sell. And so from that side everyone’s like, Well set is solid now and you know, financially pay. Yeah, I suppose I am, but I’m not mentally and I’m not mentally there because I still feel there’s things that need to be done. And now I’ve got new goals and new aspirations with the business and I don’t want to be a failure. I’ve never been a failure in anything I’ve done, so I don’t want to fucking fail at this.

So how do you how do you feel not being the ultimate boss boss anymore?

Like for me, like it’s funny, like, you know, some of the guys, the laughing little joke and like, Devil be like walking down the corridor and they’ll be like, Oh, there’s your boss there. Okay. And, and I’m a bit like.

Is clever enough to when something’s working to to leave.

It. Yeah I guess And listen.

I’m like psychologically I’m not talking about in this particular situation with that.

Yeah it could be.

Anyone else the fact that it’s not you making because you’re the kind of cat that I remember. Sometimes you would do something just out of the box. Crazy thing that I’m sure now with Dev you’d have to. You couldn’t do that.

You’ve got to ask the question. Yeah, but like you said, he is a bit like you said. He’s very, very understanding.

He’s, he’s clever enough to.

Lead and he knows, like Kailash, if you think this is going to work, let’s do it. Let’s roll with it. But you got us the. You know? Uh huh. And that’s tough because it’s tough. Yeah, of course.

It’s nice to hear that.

Because, you know, I have been the king and ruler of all of all the things I’ve ever wanted and done in my business for ever. And like, if it went really well, then I got a lovely pat on the back by myself, and it went fucking terrible.

The thing is, though, the thing we were talking about those different ways of getting out and in a way we were saying, This is the best way. Yeah. Everything has a downside. And the downside of this particular thing is that that’s it. You do have to ask.

You’ve got to ask the question. And, you know, like for instance, we we wanted to do the Bramhall Clinic and, and you know, we put the business plan together and you now have to get approval for beauty and, and dental beauty needs get approval from EDG. And I’m like, I just want to fucking build a clinic. Yeah. I don’t understand why we can’t just build this clinic.

You know, and old.

That’s my old self going back, and let’s just sign the lease. I couldn’t understand what’s going on. And it’s those things that you kind of feel like not held back by because eventually it all goes through and they trust these guys. Now, trust me because the original, the last next two squat clinics have been doing really well. And so we’re in positive EBITDA with them and they’re like blown away by the figures and they’re saying, Hey, let’s roll with it now, which is great for me, because then it allows me to run with my idea and but I still had to prove myself. Yeah, And that’s the tough bit and that’s the tough bit that puts the pressure back on. And so I do have to wake up at 6:00 in the morning and I do still need to get to work for that clock. And so I don’t have an I can’t take back that time at all.

Well, it’s a massive pleasure to see you at an event again. I remember we used to come to practice all the time together.

Yeah.

I mean, you took a little break while you built this little, little empire, right? But as the world’s biggest enlightened user, I congratulate you for making it back. But now proud of you. Did proud of you for what you’re going for. You didn’t need to. You could just sit back on on a on a boat if you wanted to. So it’s interesting that you’re going for it.

Yeah. And I think that’s just my nature, isn’t it? And so I think when it’s in your nature, I’ll be bored. Or I’d be sad, actually, if I. If I sold the whole thing and then either saw it flourish, that would upset me without me or the other way or the other way. And then I think, like, that was a waste. It was a loss. I should have kept hold of that because that was my baby and and undermined realm. You know, it it grew and flourished.

So amazing, man. Thanks for doing that.

Do you this is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and.

Pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say.

Because I’m assuming you got some value out.

Of it.

If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] There must be a whole a whole lot of skills that to be a good person to refer to.

[00:00:05] I think to be a specialist, that those days are gone. You don’t need to be a specialist. I think you need to have the respect of your colleagues because they have faith and trust in what you’re doing. I think that’s the most important thing. You know, whoever you are, whether your dentist hygiene especially, it doesn’t really matter. And I think it’s communicating to that person. I’m here to look after your patients. This is what I can offer you. These are the parameters in which we can hopefully work together.

[00:00:38] So being available.

[00:00:39] Yeah.

[00:00:44] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:02] It’s my great pleasure to welcome Hatem al Graphy to the podcast, the third periodontist we’ve had on. And this time I want to make sure I answer the period questions that I have in my head because I do get a bit stuck in life and times. Of course I do want to go through life and times with you. It was a massive pleasure to have you. How are you, man?

[00:01:20] Thank you. Be great. I’ve been listening to your podcast well before the invitation, so it’s it’s strange to be on it.

[00:01:32] From the outside looking in. You seem to me like one of the busiest guys I’ve seen in dentistry. I mean, the I was. I was doing research for this. I was I was on your premiere Academy site. And the number of courses that you guys do, you do a diploma, a certificate de courses in Ireland, here, there. And then on top of that, you’re a proper full on periodontist in three locations. Busy man. Busy.

[00:01:58] Energetic man.

[00:02:01] I enjoy it. I’m quite lucky. I think a lot of people think I just do courses. No, I do four days clinical work and I enjoy it. I’m one of those. I have a wet finger. I don’t wanna be one of those people. Sort of. You know what I use like me that I’m sort of, you know, I enjoy what we do. I love the clinical aspect, I hate the paperwork, and the courses are additional thing which we do Fridays. We do some Thursdays in between clinics, but we stop the weekend courses near enough. Did you.

[00:02:44] Yeah. Did you? Did you? I’m away. I’m away every other weekend. My situation? I think so. Where did you grow up, buddy?

[00:02:53] So. Oh God, my parents are from the Yemen. So that’s. That’s my heritage. We moved to the UK when I was, I think four or five.

[00:03:04] Do you remember moving?

[00:03:06] I remember certain bits of moving or exciting moving to new apartment. Don’t remember any upheaval as such. It was. It was just fun, you know? I had a great childhood. Went to the local school.

[00:03:22] Whereabout. Whereabouts did you move to?

[00:03:24] From the. We were. We. We recently moved to, I think, for the first year, as you ever did. In those days, you had martial arts. That was. That was the. And we moved. I think they just shipped you from the aeroplane to your marble arch and then find a place to stay. So we were there, I think, for the first year or so. Then we moved to Lancaster Gate. My plans to live in the same place. It’s a great, great, great child and just played play park. It was literally.

[00:04:03] So where did you go to school?

[00:04:05] I went to the local school. I didn’t know this. It was a Church of England or Catholic. I honestly can’t remember.

[00:04:14] You would have remembered if it was Catholic.

[00:04:19] Yeah.

[00:04:20] Probably I wasn’t. That was church.

[00:04:24] For whom?

[00:04:25] Because I went to Catholic school. That’s what I’m saying.

[00:04:28] Not at all. It was. It was great. It was a good mix of kids did that at the age of 11, went to international school after that for a few years.

[00:04:42] And Camden, That one.

[00:04:43] Camden. Yeah.

[00:04:45] Oh, really?

[00:04:47] More and more.

[00:04:48] Yeah, I. No more ever.

[00:04:50] Of course. Yeah, The late.

[00:04:52] Great guy. Were you with him?

[00:04:55] Well, we became friends, but we were not friends at school. We didn’t know we went to the same school until. I’ll tell you the story later. But a lovely guy. Lovely. Lovely. Always is in love. It’s a sad story. We lost him, unfortunately, just over a year ago. But I went into national school. Then we transferred to. What was that? Some American school. I did my international Baccalaureate again. Didn’t do much work. I was a lazy, so I literally just did enough to pass whatever I could just, you know, just had a lot of fun. Sports watch, a lot of TV. Then you had the usual decision. It was a family decision. You become a doctor, the usual thing. You have to become a doctor. My brother was a medic.

[00:05:50] What did your dad do?

[00:05:51] That was diplomat. That was a diplomat.

[00:05:54] Oh, really?

[00:05:55] Yeah. And then less than me. You know, he sort of. His career was based on travelling, but with us once, because the education aspect was so good. We’re lucky in that point of view. And he just kept on renewing his extended position here, which became a bit difficult for me. And, and then my brother said, Don’t do medicine. So the nearest thing was dentistry didn’t get my grades. I was close, but not close enough. And they went through clearing, went through clearing.

[00:06:26] To London Hospital.

[00:06:27] Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah, I think Jason’s a few of us. Jason was here above. He had me a year ahead of me.

[00:06:34] Jason Smithson.

[00:06:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But me and my principal at that time, I didn’t know what he did. I think he picked up the phone, literally picked up the phone to admissions and said, look, you’ve got to, you’ve got to get this guy. And he was amazing. And I literally got food, fire, literally got in after me, and I just got into dental school, which is good. It was it really was probably the most amazing training we had in those days. It was 50 of us.

[00:07:10] It was it was a very good school. It still is a very good school. But I remember back then it was a very, very good school. They had a great reputation. Did you have Ed Lynch teaching? Teaching you then.

[00:07:19] Eddie? Oh, yeah. Eddie Lynch. He didn’t teach me, but I was one of his clinics. I’ll never forget this. I contradicted him once like that. So he basically. He basically like you go sit down here, read this book. And then I my teacher at that time, I think was Agent Liam. She’s amazing. And she sort of stuck up and he said, no. Then I we would have some. But no, we had, we had the old surgeon, also the orthopaedic, also orthodontic paediatric, every single department was just amazing, really was.

[00:07:58] How were you as a dental student? Were you scraping through as a dental student as well, or did you become serious?

[00:08:04] The first year I failed, I failed, I think, to at for exams. And I thought, God, I can’t. I can’t, I can’t I can’t make any more doing the bare minimum. So that was the biggest kick up the backside. I mean, I think because I think it was the year of the Olympic Games somewhere in the Madrid or Barcelona. I remember now. I just love sport and I failed two exams. I thought, gosh, after that, another for an exam ever. And after that taught me lesson. I sort of knuckled down, got myself together, really put a lot of effort in, and then after that it was just literally a nerd. I was literally a clinical clinical nerd.

[00:08:49] All.

[00:08:50] Afternoon. Wednesday afternoons was off. I was always on clinic doing everything in the summer. I was always there doing extra sessions. I did a lot, probably bit too much. So did that. Yeah, Got off a day. I had Adrian on again. She was amazing. She said, Look, do do has a job with me. So no, I wanted to leave. So I sort of had enough of five years. So did that did beat, did community beat because I was thinking I enjoyed, I enjoyed, I enjoyed surgery, I enjoyed paediatric, I enjoyed ortho. So I thought, hang on, let’s go and do paediatric community has amazing trainer is now I can’t remember that lovely lady she she she she said Look I love working with you but I’m just bored. I don’t think that dentures for me did the job to kill me in Southend and that was on call every other night. And I think one and two, one and three and weekends Max. Yeah. Did that That was a killer. Really was a killer doing things that I had no idea what to do, you know. Yeah.

[00:10:05] And back then there was, there was no, like working European working Directive thing. Was it used to work? If someone was on holiday, you’d be like one one in two.

[00:10:14] Yeah.

[00:10:16] She was. You’d be up to 1:00, 2:00. And I just, I remember just these people who sort of hover around those hovers on the floor, hovering, polishing the floors.

[00:10:29] Cleaning the floor.

[00:10:31] To glass, or gosh, I sort of envy that job in a sense. Bless them, because, you know, I was just reading things are doing catheters, doing bizarre things, but great, great experience when I look back. So did that.

[00:10:47] So when did Perio come onto you? Like why why Perry or how were you thinking Perio at this point or not.

[00:10:53] At this point? I then did NHS Dentistry and Practice. I did it for I think about three six months and I literally was doing composites for taking 45 minutes and just, just taking my time and then realising my paycheque was just literally nothing. I thought, I can’t do this. And then at that time Julian Perry and Graham Barmby were setting up or a dental group was one of the things I remember. I remember I joined them and it was och it was, you know, they were starting off and then I thought, hang on, I’m really bored, you know, so much dentistry by this stage, so much. And I remember I spoke to, I think this doctor at the time he was the dean and I said, Look, I’m bored and what would you like doing? I said, Well, I enjoy surgical aspects. I don’t do PE, don’t do ortho. So I went to go and see when to go and see. Richard Palmer Oh really? Roy London So him went to the Eastman also to check that out, spoke to somebody at Royal London. So by that stage I thought yeah, the one I wanted to go to was those guys, which it sort of had the best of everything to do. So again, luck, I thought I’d enrol on that because I was desperate to get out the NHS private aspect of dentistry. I want something a bit different. So they were fully booked, those spaces. So I said, Please put me in the reserve. Somebody dropped out, got on to the four year program, which is again.

[00:12:34] Part time programme.

[00:12:36] Part with three days a week literally. So we did see two years implement another two years. But in those days, literally I came out doing hundreds, hundreds of surgical, did implants, did a sort of training, did so much and we had this course training, basic training and everything. It was a phenomenal course really. What was it that got my specialist brain?

[00:13:03] So you had pull, pull. Cuomo Was one of your teachers then, I guess.

[00:13:06] Obama That’s awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For Parma, yeah, we had this strange relationship. I just wanted to get down to do some work. I was literally in that stage, you know, And Paul was is like a lot of fun. And, and I was just literally like, I come to work and make peace and, you know, he was there. Zach. He was there. I was doing that training. It was it was literally the golden years of post graduate training, the care of. Andy Yeah, it was. And maybe there was two of us in condensed, just two of us. So literally, whatever we want to do, we could do so did that best training ever, you know, it’s phenomenal. Really, really couldn’t recommend high enough did that.

[00:14:00] And were you paying were you paying for your life with your other two days a week and paying for the course? How would you how did the finances work in that bit?

[00:14:08] So I actually saw my my apartment because I decided to do because I just I just go a bit extreme. I mean, community. I did community, period because I wanted to try things out. So my training, I did community for about four or five years, I think during my training and the other day was private work. So I wanted to do as much as I could, really, I just literally could. And they let me do what I wanted to try things out and it was just brilliant. And then it came and it came in hand because by the time I finished my training and you had lots of committees, unfortunately they determined whether you could go, whether you could get you access to.

[00:14:52] The specialist list or not.

[00:14:53] Yeah. So we did our exit exam before the content, which lets us do that. We did that and then because of a technicality, I didn’t get my meds on time. You got another six months. Unfortunately, five, six months, which I went just absolutely berserk. So luckily and it goes back to who you know, luckily my consultant community knew the SEC chairman eventual training so I finished on time. So it’s good. And then in those days we were the first one of the first specialist come through, I think with the second third groups come through. And by that stage I think I had about 13 jobs. Literally, I had 13 as a visiting specialist around the whole of the Southeast. Wow. Literally. And again, it’s brilliant, brilliant. I have no complaints. It was just literally every single day I remember working in Oxford, turning up there, and I said, What are you doing? I said, I’ve come to work. You’re not due here till tomorrow. Because my diary was. But now it was, it was quite, quite did that started doing a lot of teaching. Did a lot of teaching for dinner. We started doing our own courses, which is great and enjoyed the clinical aspect. Sort of found out hang on, I needed a bit more. So we started pushing the courses and that sort of kicked off quite nicely. Really meant my wife was also paid on and she said, Look, come on, this is proper structure. You have Protestant to write anything regimental, so come on. So then Academy kicked off, you know, over ten years ago.

[00:16:48] So let’s be one. Does you want a bit Let’s rewind a bit. Right. So you qualified as a periodontist, right. And then you suddenly had loads of work. And so is that situation that there was just not enough periodontist?

[00:17:01] Oh, yeah, there’s hardly any.

[00:17:02] There’s still isn’t enough, right?

[00:17:04] There wasn’t enough. There wasn’t enough. I mean, there’s more than we had in 2004. There were probably dozen, I guess, you know, literally everybody’s like, come on, hats and we’re going to pay for your transport. We paid on the day. Here’s your check. In those days since 2004, Dick Cheney was that we were treated and treated well. So we treated a bit over the top. Days because everyone’s desperate to get periodontist on board to do perio implants. And again, it’s 2000 2004 years ago. Thankfully, there’s a lot more out there now. In those days, there were a lot of specialist practices starting to come in the market as such. And these days there’s a lot of in house. So a lot of people in house, patients don’t want to travel. They want to keep their business. So the numbers have increased significantly really? Well, the universities are producing, you know, 4 to 6 at least per year. So I’m not sure the numbers are, but it must be in the hundreds easily compared to this ago.

[00:18:09] Would you say? I mean, I get the feeling that education generally gets better for everyone. Yeah. So in a way.

[00:18:19] It’s I mean, when we qualified 90, 96, we had no courses literally, I think had one or two courses run by the same people who taught you. And it was pretty backward. Nowadays education it’s it’s you know.

[00:18:35] So, so so my question my question is that the quality of the referral in 2004 compared to the referral you get now, are you getting now much more complex cases because people are taking care of the more basic stuff themselves or not similar? Is that other patients the same?

[00:18:56] Yeah, I think it’s similar. I think the only difference is awareness of the referring colleagues, whereas a dentist, they tend to be quick on the mark and also treating. So you know, what we do is we teach, we, we teach dentists and hygienist so they can do the bulk of the work. That’s how it should be. I think everything should be kept in house. But if you look at when we qualify the specialists I was going to America regularly to do to get educated. Yeah, to get educated. And nowadays I would say nearly everything is nearly there in the UK in terms of how many courses we’ve got. The amount of courses are phenomenal. The only thing I would probably say put my foot in it is probably true in planning and I think people talk about choice and all these other I think they’re good at really good in planning cases. I think here we still probably lack that amazing and perio process, whatever, whatever you want is out there. But I think what’s lacking is, is the full comprehensive, comprehensive planning of how we should do things and what stage. And that’s coming up. There’s one or two people are doing that. I think a few others are doing that quite nicely, but I think that’s lacking. But compared to when I qualified, well, it’s true because.

[00:20:21] I found that when I was a dentist I used to refer to Pete Strand. Yeah. And I used to find the value in that referral was, okay, number one, he was going to take care of the site. But number two, he would sort of reconfirm back to the patient what I was saying. And if I said, I would say to Pete, Look, I want to crown this, this and this, but I’m not sure if that one is going to take the crown or the bridge or whatever it was. And and he would say, Yeah, okay, yeah, you can do that crown or bridge or whatever. But then he would pretty much sell the treatment plan to the patient once. Once the patient had got it from the expert guy, then it was a sold plan. The patient would come back and I’d, number one, do it with confidence because the periodontist said the teeth could take it. But number two, the patient had a new confidence. And that sort of that relationship between the referral and the referral for RE is that that’s.

[00:21:17] I.

[00:21:17] Mean I think you’re right, but I remember when I was doing general dentistry, I was doing my specialist training and I think my time was pretty good in those days. And I do plan to the patient, I need this, that crown, that this and the patient will, I’m not sure. And then the patient actually goes to see our hygienist and I put everything in my nose quite clearly. And the hygienist was phenomenal. She was phenomenal. She would say, Oh, he’s planning this. And the patients always come back and say, Well, I’m ready to go now. Well.

[00:21:57] Because I do this.

[00:21:58] Yeah.

[00:22:00] I just think it’s a reinforcement, isn’t it? I think it doesn’t matter. Is it’s that professional person sort of saying, hang on, I think I agree with this. And I think like everything else, if you sing from the same hymn who works really, really well, I think we always have different plans, There’s no doubt about it. But I think if you’re similar in that reinforcement, but I think when you get a referral, if we get referrals, which can be really detailed and others can be brief. The more detail you put in, the more you can sort of say, Hang on, I think we’re going to engage with the patient better that way.

[00:22:33] So look, if there’s someone listening to this who wants to look at becoming a specialist. Okay. Number. Number one, where to train and all of that that that that I get. But the what are the skills that you’ll need as someone who gets referred patients. I mean that there must be a whole a whole lot of skills that that to be a good person to refer to I guess you know let’s take it from the basics. You don’t steal that patient. You turn that patient.

[00:23:01] Back.

[00:23:03] To a specialist, that those days are gone. You don’t need to be a specialist. You know, I think you need to have the respect of your colleagues because they have faith and trust in what you’re doing. I think that’s the most important thing. You know, whoever you are, whether your therapist, dentist, hygiene, especially, it doesn’t really matter. And I think it’s it’s communicating to that person. I’m here to look after your patients. This is what I can offer you. These are the parameters in which we can hopefully work together.

[00:23:37] So being available, yeah.

[00:23:39] I mean, all our work is basically right. This is who I am. As soon as I see the patient, I’ll communicate how that communication is Writing would be. In writing, you need to whatsapp your phone. You and we and especially the last few weeks, we’ve had two colleagues who unfortunately had something’s gone wrong. Unfortunately, I need some help and it’s fine. We just said, Look, don’t tell me, tell me the story, and then we’ll put the patient in as soon as we see them, will communicate what we found and do that way. Really, I think it’s the trust A not poaching for you to do what’s best for the patient and then communicate back to everybody. Really? Did we get it right? No, we don’t. You know, it’s a similar scenario a few weeks ago where I said the patient, I’m sorry, I can’t fulfil what you want me to do. I don’t think I’m the best person for you. You know, he’s a refund. And and we do that about once a year, twice a year where we talk. No, I don’t think it’s a communication back to the dentist or hygienist saying, look, I don’t think I can help this patient for whatever reason.

[00:24:52] Really.

[00:24:54] It comes down to trust competency, really. And again, it comes with experience Again, I’ve been doing this for ten, 20 years now, so I’m way ahead in terms of.

[00:25:06] So you get a sixth sense for the type of patient that’s going to be a problem.

[00:25:10] I do Now. I get a sense now I’m sorry, I can’t do what you want me to do or can’t write what you want to do. I don’t think I can fulfil your expectations. And it’s the best way to say, Look, I’m sorry. I think you learn that from experience because everyone should be the hero. We want to be here. We will learn from our mistakes. Oh, I can do this. I can get this person off twice and hang on. This is this is not going to work out for any of us. I think the best way to learn as you get older and wiser with no sort of say no, sorry, there is nothing to be embarrassed about. It’s best way. I think we tried to. We tried to please. That’s what we try to do. We’re carrying fresh and we want to please people. But sometimes you want to be able to go to sleep at night.

[00:26:08] All right, let’s get into some period, man. Let’s let’s let’s start with this question, right? You know, your wife, Zainab, is a periodontist as well within Perio. What’s your chosen sort of field that you I mean, tell me tell me, both of you, what? So what’s her area and what’s your area? And and is that a thing? Is that a thing that in perio one guy’s like super into pre implant itis and the other guy must be right into some sort of grafting or whatever.

[00:26:39] I, I don’t think yes some people are better than others in some things. I mean, I love surgery. Know probably when we first qualified I think we were doing too many surgical. To be fun, to be honest. And we again, we change our protocols significantly. What do I love? I love this generation. I love. I love doing the grafting session and also regenerating defects. So sad. So that’s why I. That’s what I enjoy, I think.

[00:27:13] So go and talk us through. Talk us through that. Talk us through that. The sort of the end again.

[00:27:17] The. The outlook. Okay.

[00:27:19] So is that what regeneration is? Is that what you mean?

[00:27:22] Yeah. So we’ve been using and again God since, since we were staring God 2002 in 2001. 2002. Been using it so we were using a lot of colleagues just saying, Oh come on man, this is not going to work. This is rubbish. Doesn’t work in my hands. And it’s that it’s that mentality. If it’s not going to, as you say, it’s not going to work. It’s not going to work. If you’ve got the mentality, we’re going to try this. Let’s see if we can get this right. So it took us years and years and years. So we’ve got the protocol pretty good in terms of. Right. We’ve got any defect. We know it’s going to be very simple to break down. If you don’t do it, it’s going to potentially become a daunting problem, the ability to become that. So over the years, we we’ve been known now to be able to regenerate cases that some colleagues don’t want to do or can’t do, whatever the case may be.

[00:28:17] But what it what’s the process? What do you.

[00:28:18] Do? So the process is changed a lot now because it used to be put on just surgery. So so we’ve now gone to flappers, so empty, been a surgical procedure. So, you know, you open the site, you clean it out, you put the MD again, you may put a filler in whether bovine. And you know, we’ve been teaching. So I’ve got my academy colleagues in general, dentists not doing cases, sending us cases, and we put them on Facebook, we put them on social media saying these what these guys can do. So it’s not a specialist, you know, treatment without anymore.

[00:28:51] Your students do it as well.

[00:28:53] Well, they don’t use their dentist. Yeah.

[00:28:55] No, but your students like Perry Academy students.

[00:28:57] Yeah.

[00:28:58] Your delegates.

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:29:00] They do the regeneration work as well.

[00:29:02] They do all the he said they do everything we do. We teach which is non surgical, which is surgical recession grafting and we’ve got no value for them. Forgive us on your podcast isn’t it. Really. Yeah. Yeah. It’s phenomenal glance. It’s been a few, we’ve just, Wow, I can do this when I first qualified and did So.

[00:29:34] How long does it take for how long does it take for regeneration, for bone bony infill and all that? How does that take?

[00:29:39] Nine months.

[00:29:41] Nine months?

[00:29:43] So it’s nine months surgical procedure. We’re now moving on to non surgical, so we’re now using Flight-plus. And again, we haven’t got that right yet. So we’re the same situation. When we started off in 2002, 2001 where we like playing around with them to get this does not work. So the first course went correct and we’re now changing the protocols for the flat plus to get it right because it’s an issue of getting it dry, bloodless, etc., etc.. So we’re now teaching dentists and hygienists, but have we got the protocols 100% correct? No, we haven’t. So I suspect we’ll get it right in the next year or so because it came out just before COVID and COVID cocktail bar data. Now we’re using. Yes, that’s what I enjoy. Pam Titus, I did a lot of cases. We’ve got our own protocols. Are they good enough? No, they’re not. Brian Titus. So we’re struggling with getting that correct. Really, The surgical blood testing, we’ve got that correct. So again, I’m lucky enough I started this years ago. So everything we do, we teach. It’s all protocol. So this is what you do. It’s what you have to do, like the aeroplane pilot pencil, all these buttons, do all this. And even before this podcast, one of the guys from the Irish group had I’m doing this recession defect.

[00:31:06] These steps are going to do. So again, it’s it’s in your manual search of what we’ve taught. So that’s how we do it. And I think I wish I although I had phenomenal training, phenomenal training, we sometimes went man houses, which wasn’t a bad thing. This whole point of training, you try everything, see what works in your hands is so we know we have anything between 6 to 10 days to teach our colleagues to get this right. And, you know, some of them come back and say, Oh, I know this rubbish, this B.S. teaching, it probably works. So that’s why we teach it. So it’s it’s getting that. And I think I heard one of your podcasts where you got for your own courses, you get good numbers. And some of them some of them do the cases, some of them don’t. Yeah. So we’re slightly different from you because we have a WhatsApp group all our courses. So for courses we have a WhatsApp group and we physically push everybody come on, do the cases. And on a daily basis we’ve got cases being shown highlighted. Again, we’ve got about 30 over 30 groups now as a WhatsApp. Can you share your cases, any difficulties, what went wrong? And we learn, so do we get everybody?

[00:32:29] We’ve got we’ve got a we’ve got a Facebook group. But but it’s just what I’m saying. Not every one participates, you know, not everyone does. I mean, maybe with yours it’s more I don’t know, maybe, maybe, maybe you’re better at getting people to go ahead and implement what we saw. But I’m super interested in why some do in some way. Some don’t.

[00:32:45] I. I think you did a mistake. It has to be within that group. So each group trust each other, knows each other because they they and even now and again, I’ll get I’ll get in once a month and say, do I need to ask these questions? So why are you asking me separately in WhatsApp? You need to be asking me in the group. I’m a bit.

[00:33:05] Yeah, that happens a lot.

[00:33:08] You change it. So we change it to each group, which is more of a more of a pain for us because it’s more groups, but we get to realise more people are actually engaging a lot better than having in one whole.

[00:33:23] Group, one massive group. You’re right, you’re right. Because our Facebook group is one and a half thousand people now.

[00:33:29] Yeah.

[00:33:29] And it seems like a big audience, isn’t it?

[00:33:32] And we changed it. So the WhatsApp group is we’ve got certain rules, you know, few years ago stopped it, you know, Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night. No messages, please, because we’re getting to 9:00.

[00:33:46] That’s a.

[00:33:47] Strange bunch.

[00:33:49] That’s it. So I’ve got I’ve got a mini spa makeover coming this weekend. I’m going to do a WhatsApp group with them and see what happens.

[00:33:54] Yeah, do what? And, you know, we sort of say, look, come on, you know, do we get with our group such a small age group, anything between 8 to 10, usually you’ll do 12, no more. And again, whatever you put in, you get out. And each time we do a course, we start the course. We shared not all cases. We share them all the cases, we share the finishes. Douglas Whatever it was, we share all these people who they might know because they’re well known, who’ve done our course and say, This is what they did. They’re no different to you.

[00:34:29] That’s a good idea, too. That’s a good idea to know.

[00:34:31] Different to any of us haven’t got super hands. They just got on with it. And there is a difference. I think the youngsters are amazing. The youngsters tend to what? I’m going to go for it. Take it easy, and then I think you’d be too educated. Mature. You tend to swear. You tend to overanalyze things when you know. And some of the youngsters, the cases they’ve done, just like, wow, again, this is and again.

[00:35:02] Is that is that what drives you? Is that what drives you in the teaching that that moment when the somewhat one of the delegates ends up doing something amazing?

[00:35:10] Yeah, that’s right. Because it’s good fun. It’s good fun. I love it and I love people coming back to and this is and also I get to see what they do and where they practice and we mentor them and quite a few become our friends. Literally, some of you become close friends. Now you just follow their path. And we’ve had to do suspicious training to want to do special training to just about, oh yeah, too bad to start. A few have gone to do. I think this two have gone on to do their own implant course and I do that there’s Yeah. So it’s you know I did Douglas. Douglas what.

[00:35:53] Yeah. Good great good.

[00:35:55] Yeah he did of course. And now he’s teaching me the digital flow. So we’ve worked at the district level, so I.

[00:36:04] Have a stent.

[00:36:05] Now. It’s more than that. Yeah, it’s the same. So we’re trying to do it. So a CBC led. So the future.

[00:36:10] Oh, I.

[00:36:10] See. The future is going to be sort of chronic. It’s going to be, you know, close. No surgical approach is just going to be like this. We need some institution to take away. It’s going to take away like a guided implant surgery, short or flap, whatever you want.

[00:36:25] To take me through that because I want people to get value as well. I want people to learn something from this rather than just about you. I’ve been I’ve been guilty of that before. Yeah, I’ve been guilty of that before. So take me through that. Just the basics of of crown lengthening. What amount of, of, of gum can I just shorten with a laser or with a, with a electro surge without impinging on the biological width.

[00:36:52] So there’s two ways to look it. So we teach it as you have to do it as an aesthetic. So if it’s aesthetic is a non aesthetic functional case. So if it’s a cosmetic as you’re talking about, you need to work out what the bullet for that case is. So the first thing to look at and the difficulty that we have is knowing not just how much tissue you take away is how much tissue do you have. So it goes back to the boring thing of have I got enough nice tissue? So we go we go little to the basics and it is difficult to sort of say, why is the freedom an issue? Is it freedom in the way? Have you got inflamed tissue? Have you got crowns in place? Have you got veneers in place? If you have, it changes things completely. So when we teach this, it literally is what do you have in terms of soft tissue, hard tissue? Are you planning to veneer these cases? So if you’re going to try and veneer these cases, you need to try and finish them onto tooth, not onto root. That means. So it sounds easy, but it’s not. And then you need to look at, have you got thin tissue, have you got thick tissue? If you’ve got thin tissue, it’s going to recede more. If you’ve got thick tissue new to it, you’re going to get inflamed tissue. Then you go look at is it high smile line? If it’s a high small line case, you’re going to have to leave it 3 to 6 months with temporaries in there.

[00:38:17] So it’s again, I think we’ve nailed it in terms of saying, right, this is the crib sheet that you use. This is what you have to look at. It is based on that. How much tissue are you going to take away and it all based on your diagnostic setup, etc., etc.. So it’s the DSD in terms of trying to work out hang on based on this, how much tissue do I take away? But it’s not that straightforward in terms of I want to just take away two millimetres of tissue. It depends what you do, how you temporise it. So again, some of the cases, some of the colleagues do are just phenomenal because they follow the protocol of Temporising it’s leaving it longer. And then even that you have to look at your papillae. We teach papillae preservation, so some of the Americans will literally have few horror stories where they’ll just chop chop things off and then restorative they do for martinis or crowns because you’re going to try and create the papillae. We don’t teach that hours. It tends to be quite simple. Follow these steps. That way you won’t lose anything for me, so you won’t make any mistakes from that point of view. So it’s a question which is a huge one. Sorry, if I’m going round.

[00:39:39] That’s more nuanced than it’s more nuanced than. What does he believe.

[00:39:43] He’s.

[00:39:44] Actually.

[00:39:45] Like? Like everything else. Right. What about this new classification, man? Because to me, it feels like they’ve made it more complicated. Or my mind is not paying attention because you’ve got now you’ve got staging and you’ve got grading. Is that right?

[00:40:00] Yeah, there’s lots of things they’ve changed. There’s there’s staging, there’s grading, there’s classification and when to treat, you know, certain things when not to. So it’s a huge problem because I think as soon as as soon as that came out, everybody’s like, I need to take Radiographs. Well, why are you taking away the gloves? Because I’ve got to do classification. So we teach or say we teach, we’re doing this affect system to group of patients and cepstrum where there’s a difference between classification diagnosis, every obsessive classification. And we tend to say, what is classification? Does it affect your diagnosis? No, it doesn’t. It’s two different entities. And it’s that it’s that confusion where we teach it to different entities. Diagnosis is what’s going to affect your treatment. It’s what you’re going to get in trouble medically, legally, if you don’t record classification. So a diagnosis because that’s going to affect the patient. But if you’re going to tell the patient in the letter, you’ve got staging and grading, it means absolutely nothing to the patient. And that’s what it means in the day is what the patient’s understood. Have you just done it just to satisfy some ivory tower person who’s saying to you, you’ve got to do staging grading based on, you know, cancer? Because that’s what it’s based on. It’s based on that. For me, it doesn’t change that. It’s basically you’re going to get a diagnosis. Say, is the patient susceptible? What are the risk factors that we’ve been doing teaching it for decades. So do I.

[00:41:32] Do it.

[00:41:34] In the.

[00:41:34] World of period? For instance, did you feel like the old system was was lacking and so you needed a new system?

[00:41:42] I don’t think we need a new system. I just think, you know, when we were taught period, it was phenomenal. We had phenomenal undergraduate and postgraduate. We had amazing and depending on which type of UK and I can identify which dental schools. Really. Yeah I mean it’s there’s just for my experience tends to be you know the Glasgow you know Dundee the New Castle graduates are just are different level in terms of really clinically knowledge and skill wise and you sort of know after a while based on their pay is not really taught that well in this place or that place. And it’s going back to basics to all these people. So we spend the whole day literally on the courses just going back to basics, not not the anatomy. We do the basic clinical anatomy or we sort of say, What are you looking for? What do these numbers mean? What are the centimetre pocket? Still people don’t know, unfortunately, what eight millimetres seven millimetres pocket model advance. So it’s getting back to basics and it’s sort of like, Oh wow, I didn’t know that. So it’s hard to judge. We just need to sort of say, Look, come on guys, this is what you should be doing. Please do it for your own sake, for patients sake, and you don’t get it. It’s going back to the basics. And again, I was taught we do well. So we do in a simple, basic way. Day one, just on that. Now, before we move on to the.

[00:43:17] It’s interesting, it’s interesting you say that because we even see it with composite. Yeah, there’s a couple of dental schools that they stand out as very good at teaching composition. I haven’t really paid attention to the ones that are really bad, but but I have paid attention to a couple for for me. Birmingham Yeah, I think Louis McKenzie had a lot to do with that because you put the students into hands on composite courses in, in undergrad and I think Peninsula’s being very goth and Jason might have had something to do with, with that, I don’t know. I’m not sure. I see some really good work.

[00:43:50] Hope we see. Good, good from there. Good, good number from there. But we get a few. Unfortunately, again, we sort of say, look, you know, we have some people who do our courses at the beginning sort of say, I’ve got a I’m a bit embarrassed to ask this or have some what do you think I should do? I so don’t worry. You know, we have different stands where people are just amazing, really good one level and others do a bit more, which is fine. It doesn’t, you know, I struggled education wise in certain aspects. So we just said, look that, well, you’ll get there. You could go down a bit more, pay attention a bit more because you are really.

[00:44:30] So noticed in your research interests. There was there was the connection between perio and cardiovascular disease.

[00:44:40] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:40] And and it’s such an exciting time, isn’t it, now that, you know, we’ve got this link between P gingivalis and Alzheimer’s, that it’s become a hot, hot topic, right? And diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Do you get that feeling? I get the feeling now that, you know, it could be that suddenly the oral microbiome or whatever is is is super important, or because it’s becoming super important, our understanding of its effect on systemic disease. And, you know, Perrier would be at the forefront of that. Right. And I notice you get all your your delegates to do blood testing.

[00:45:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:45:23] Your Perrier patients.

[00:45:25] We do trouble that. That’s not quite that Not quite you know.

[00:45:29] Yeah we.

[00:45:34] Know. Yeah. If you have. So again we go back to we, we do risk factors with donkeys. So if you risk factors one of them is in medical. So if you’ve got generalised advanced severe disease and you haven’t got the level factors of plaque and anything else. Yeah. One of the things we’ve been doing for 15 years, so I did my M.S., I had mercy on the cardiovascular and impair disease.

[00:46:00] I mean, so you mean if the disease is aggressive, but the oral hygiene seems okay, that’s when you do it.

[00:46:06] Yeah. And again, we pick up head of a lot. We pick up, you know, thyroid anaemia, diabetes, the whole shebang. And patients come back and come back. Wow. Thank you so much. You know, others come back with tablets. Look, look, I’m on now so much, okay? And yeah, we when we’re with them, we tell them, look, you may lose a bit of time, bit of blood, but I need to make sure you know, we’re not going to waste your time starting treatment knowing. Hang on. And again, we started this with implants years ago. And I think our colleagues in the you know, when I see lots of implants, we were doing that. And why did we get failure? Is this due to something, you know, prediabetic, etc., etc.? So we did that. So I remember seeing that. So I was I was I was like, Wow, this is really fascinating. So I got into that again years ago for many years to be We’ve got to be careful. It’s an association. Yeah, it isn’t.

[00:47:09] Yeah. Yeah. But I’m really excited about this idea. Of course we What I say, of course, is if this is even new, right, isn’t it that, that you can, you can, you can help someone’s gum disease if, if, if their diabetes is sorted. Right. That’s one thing. But the other way round is what’s exciting. The idea that you could help their diabetes with their gum disease fixing their their gum problems. Yeah, that that’s such a crazy notion.

[00:47:35] Lots of I mean there’s lots of k you know, if you read that there’s lots of cases of, you know, women not being pregnant because their thyroid, you know, is the easiest little mini things. You know, they don’t seem a big thing, but they are all because they’ve got why somebody’s not healing, why are getting pregnant, why you know, this is not happening. It tends to be underlying systemic issue. And the good thing about it is a hygienist, dentist therapist are going to know about it. And so our patients so I’ve got patients who turn up in sitting, as I say, I’m planning to have a baby I’ve heard about I may because I’ve got gum problems, I may have premature know. And that was that’s.

[00:48:17] That’s what they’ve just read that on the Internet somewhere.

[00:48:19] Yeah it’s they now they read about it And that’s that’s actually good in a sense because it’s amazing. Yeah. You’re getting it’s the social media people thank God you need to look after your gums because your health is set to smoking, etc. So the awareness is brilliant and it’s coming up thankfully. Are we pushing it enough? I don’t I don’t think we are. Do we have.

[00:48:43] This link, this link with Alzheimer’s? You must be aware of that, right? The Do you know about Zuckerberg’s dad? Did you hear about this?

[00:48:51] Yeah. I mean, my father in law’s got my father in law. Bless him. He’s got Alzheimer’s.

[00:48:57] And has he?

[00:48:59] It’s. I think we’ve got to be slightly careful where we are. I know they found bugs and bacteria and brains and etc., etc., but I think it is important. Are we there in terms of identifying this as the cause? No, we’re definitely not there. We know there’s a relationship, but you see lots of patients who who hyper who over the years have developed cancer and all of a sudden their their mouth does deteriorate but. Mick thing is, it’s a huge it’s every single pathway you can think of and it’s exciting. Yes. But we’ve known this again, this has been going for 20 years, but we haven’t, I think, publicised enough. We haven’t.

[00:49:43] Yeah.

[00:49:43] Because for, for a long time period to the to the outsider like me would seem like well right, you know, you’re kind of cleaning away and once in a while it’s going to be a surgical going to refer that and you know, that’s the first. It felt like it wasn’t getting anywhere. You know, now, though. Yeah. I mean, maybe I’m looking into it more. I don’t know.

[00:50:07] Honestly, if we go back to our first thing, first thing I say to to anybody who does our cause is I say thank you. Thank you. Because it’s not a sexy it’s not like you’re a composite. It’s not, you know, it’s.

[00:50:20] Who.

[00:50:21] Are. I just always say thank you because it’s not a sexy subject. It’s something I don’t think was talked well to a lot of people, unfortunately. And we’re trying to change that. But it’s like, thank you so much because people just think, as you said, it’s just going to be, you know, gum gardening, cleaning a bit here, doing that. It’s not. And there’s so much in it. So whether it’s crowning thing, whether it’s recession, whether you’re grafting, you know, implant implants, really. And again, it’s it’s so much more now and again, it’s how.

[00:50:57] Predictable is grafting.

[00:50:59] Well, a good question. Got again the case is pick your cases. So since alignment you know since the alignment kicked off the massive recession beginnings Huge, massive, massive could be thankful for that too. But again, the cases, the cases that we’re doing in the upper anterior, they tend to be stable in the lower. We’ve changed it now. So we’re now doing a lot of CBC. So again, where we’re doing CBCs is we’re seeing a lot of cases where there’s no buccal bone left, there’s no buckle bone and teeth are out because.

[00:51:39] Of because the aligners is pushed the tooth too far.

[00:51:42] Yeah. And I think if you look at I think it’s coming up, if you look at most entire onion, most in the he’s a big aligner guy and he’s now I think one of the first people to do CBC and alignment. So you actually looking at where the teeth are where you want to put in the bone. Yeah. And in the bone which said we’ve been saying that for quite some time now, know sort of saying, hang on, you need to be looking at this. And one of the issues that we have is going to put my foot in it now is some groups, let’s just put this way. So some groups sort of saying, well, no, you should not be doing it. The gold standard for is is a panel, which I think those days are gone. You know, if you look at Indian context, they’re pushing CBC implant dentistry perio was still not there and trying to fight that and also it hasn’t got there either. And those kind of cases are going to tell you so much before you even start aligning them. And it’s those cases where sort of saying, hang on, if the tooth is out of neutral zone, are you going to have orthodontic treatment aligned or have you had it? If you have and there’s no buccal bone? I personally think stability in our case is not there. Then you sort of say, hang on, should I be doing connective tissue grafting? No, I probably should be doing epithelium grafting because I think a tissue. So we’re tending to do a lot more of those in the in the lower end. So if the teeth are out of the neutral zone and again, making it super interesting.

[00:53:14] Yeah, super interesting.

[00:53:16] And when we show our cases, we show our cases to colleagues and say, Oh, hang on, sugar. I didn’t look at it. I didn’t think of that.

[00:53:24] And that’s so so the groups, the groups that say that, are they basing it on the x ray dose of a CBC? Is that what they mean?

[00:53:34] Yes, they are. But those days are going or gone. I mean.

[00:53:38] With the dose isn’t as big as.

[00:53:43] What? What can you see on a lower end? My opinion that this is going to be a small volume and I think the same issue is being said for implant dentistry, same issues being said for endo. So you should not be doing this. But if you if you ask my medical colleagues, I think they laugh. I always speak to my colleagues and say, look, I.

[00:54:03] Think the other thing is a CBC is different to a.

[00:54:06] Ct. Yes.

[00:54:07] And not enough people realise that. Yeah. People people know a CT scan is 100 chest x rays or whatever that is. Yeah. Like a big, big dose. A CBC is a different thing. It’s a different technology. So it’s a much, much lower dose.

[00:54:22] Yeah. Dentistry is.

[00:54:25] Is.

[00:54:27] Phenomenal compared to 20 years ago. It’s bloody exciting. There’s so much going on. But I think we should sort of start pushing the parameters and saying, come on, let’s just do you know the negativity there or you mustn’t do this, you mustn’t do it, has to go. Some of it is due to unfortunately regulation and or we too scared and we mustn’t do this. And the other other other is to do with the ivory tower still having a bit of power.

[00:54:53] But how do you feel? How do you feel about how do you feel about the regulation and the culture of patients? I mean, I think I often think that there’s many things that we did at Enlighten that I’d be too scared to do today, you know, tests, the different gels we were trying and all of that back in the day, back in 2001, 2004, 2006. We’re trying things out that today is a dentist. I’d be like a little bit like so worried about being sued all the time. They are, aren’t they? They’re always worried about what you see. How do you deal with that?

[00:55:27] That’s sad. And we will doing it like it’s really sad. You know, I half my days writing up letters, defensive dentistry and.

[00:55:38] Dentists, but, you know, like you said, you said you said we’re not there yet on on peri implant itis. You know, we’re getting there and we’re not there yet on the flap. Less regeneration. We’re getting there. All of those, you know, every single movement forwards in dentistry happened because someone said, what if.

[00:55:57] Yes. Yeah. So really the days of us, especially from a referral point of view, you know, I would engage patients say, look, can we try this? And patients say, yes, and you know, again, on a regular basis, you know, every month I’m getting a colleague saying, How can you write me reference for I’ve got a I’ve got a case going to GDC case. Did you see. Yeah. Or I’ve got it. And it’s, it’s I had one last week before and it’s a regular thing and it’s not I think a lot of colleagues have COVID gave up or given up or just say, is it worth it? And I think that’s so bloody sad. We’re coming to a stage where, you know, we’re losing colleagues.

[00:56:43] Well, the lawyers are winning.

[00:56:45] Yeah. I mean, I’ve gone as a as a witness, especially expert witness, and I’ve gone to years ago to watch some. And it is scary. It’s not nice, but, you know, at some stage there needs to be change whether that will happen. But we’ve been saying that for good. You know, in.

[00:57:07] 20 years.

[00:57:08] Patients will suffer. You know, the patients will pay more. They won’t have the tumour that, you know, we’re not pushing the bands like we used to, but I’ve got the answers to that. It’s just that we’ve got all this amazing technology, facilities, courses, everything. It’s amazing stuff that out there and you sort of say, Well look, can, can we utilise some of this without. No, I haven’t got the answer. It’s good and bad. Unfortunately.

[00:57:41] Well, let’s dream this dream a little This dream let’s all let’s say let’s say that you are the king of the world And you you could make a make a bet on the future of period. Like, like in ten years time. What do you think could happen? Because Zuckerberg’s dad was talking about investing in the company where these little nano robots go into the periodontal pocket and you wear this virtual reality thing and drive the robot into the first nation and.

[00:58:11] He’s.

[00:58:13] Like, He’s investing in that company. Yeah, he’s investing in that company.

[00:58:19] I don’t think the future is going to be more medically related. You think it’s going to be, you know, patients coming in and getting blood tests, getting blood pressure, getting their pulse all done.

[00:58:36] It’s more holistic understanding, holistic understanding of what’s going on.

[00:58:40] Exactly. I think it’s going to be right. We need to make sure you’re physically, mentally, well before we go on to. And I think that’s that’s exciting. I think that would be in terms of I think the implant dentistry is amazing. And I see a big part of my work was to do some implant dentistry. I think people are saving more teeth now, which is great. It’s still a lot of implants and there’s still, but I think a lot more cosmetically driven recession cases, grafting cases bit like what they’re doing in America. Hopefully I think there’ll be a lot more regeneration, which be great, and I think there’ll be a lot more CVC saying, Right, this tooth is saved. We need to be doing this less surgery, I think, because I think regeneration would be stem cell related, I don’t know, be ten years, I think be 20 years. To be honest, I don’t think we’re there yet. Yeah, I think that’ll be about 28, 20 years time. But if you look at CAD cam, if you look at some of the things coming out, implant dentistry, we used to struggle, you know, 15, 20 years when we were doing implants and then it’s totally different now and again those people coming through the new graduates, they’re just, you know, unfortunate because they’ve got so much debt, but they’re fortunate. So in terms of having the facilities and technology that we didn’t have, so I think.

[01:00:10] We didn’t have you said before we didn’t have any courses here. We didn’t have the Internet. The Internet didn’t exist. You know, that’s a massive thing.

[01:00:18] I asked my son, my son, I would be grateful you got one for kids. I know. Of course you had one. You kind of go on different channels. No, no, of course you didn’t have that. We have four channels that exchange, and I think we embrace. There’s some old farts. I call them old farts complaining about this. I think it’s. If you’re coming out of dentistry now, it’s amazing, really.

[01:00:50] So let’s talk about darker times. We like to discuss errors, you know, mistakes that you’ve made, mistakes that maybe someone else can learn from. Can you think of something? Maybe a oh, shit moment, maybe a management management mistake with a patient that lost confidence, something like that. Can you think of something that you did?

[01:01:12] Yeah, I remember. And she still sees me. I remember really, really, really, really hot summer and relining a coat, chrome denture. But there were teeth and she had precision attachments on them. An amazing work done in Germany years and years ago. So I realised it. First time I thought, hang up, I know I don’t get stuck. So first time I took it out, that took that too early. Second time to get to mine. My nurse sent me. Oh, God. And the third time it gets stuck. Literally, I couldn’t get it. I couldn’t get snow danger out. Literally, it got stuck.

[01:02:00] It’s what it went to the undercut or something.

[01:02:02] Completely undercut.

[01:02:05] So what, you had to drill it out?

[01:02:06] No, I gave a local and I you know, the brilliant move was that the tap.

[01:02:13] The one with the juice, with the hammer and the way. Yeah. Yeah. So you took it out like.

[01:02:18] That.

[01:02:21] Section by section. It didn’t break, but she was amazing. I know. She’s in a lot of pain. Even I gave a local. It was a pressure. And she still. So I’ve had. I’ve had that. I’ve had I’ve treated, you know, don’t treat dentists treat. We treat families. Their families don’t treat dentists.

[01:02:40] You must treat a lot of dentists, though.

[01:02:41] No, actually I treat quite a few. And usually. Gosh, and this might help because you might put them off. Now I’ve had yeah, I’ve had bleeds so I’ve treated period before. I don’t take the teeth out of dentists because I love to do that. Not just generally enjoy taking these out. Bled You know, I had some bleeding and scenario of graft go after me. I’ve got black bleeding, my nose bled my face and it never happens.

[01:03:18] Don’t get nosebleeds.

[01:03:20] Doing facial swelling. But when you to pay a dentist. So I’ve had a few of those. I’ve, you know, I’ve clocked up in terms of finances over the years. You know, I always say I always say to colleagues, look, don’t just get mental. You don’t just get a clinical get a damn financial mental. I think business mental. Yeah. Try and get as much as you can. One clinical one for your personal, one for your finances, because you learn the hard way. You make so many mistakes.

[01:03:55] Go on, go on. Tell me. Tell me a business mistake you’ve made, then.

[01:03:58] Business. Oh, God. Few go. We’ve done property, I think during COVID. During COVID. So COVID is great because again, over the years since it took off, it’s just been I had no time to do anything. So COVID was not.

[01:04:15] Nice, time to reflect.

[01:04:17] But also time to go through accounts. We literally went through, dissected all our accounts. We went through what we’re spending on, what were we doing right in terms of this, where the overheads were. You know, we went through everything, which is great and there was five, it was five figures. Mistake. I know that you and then then you speak to colleagues, you speak to you speak to colleagues, and it’s like, wow, yeah, this is you know, it’s you’re bound to get there. I said, I know, but, you know, it’s and I sort of learn now. I go through everything myself. Now I tend to I tend to I’m a bit of a control freak, unfortunately. I tend to find out everything about accounts and this and this and that. So I know I check everything, really. And it’s a bit. Pitt said The.

[01:05:12] Problem with going through everything yourself is it’s not scalable, you know? That’s that’s the problem with it.

[01:05:18] I’m not into the big corporate, you know, Pokémon is great in terms of what we do and we’ve got.

[01:05:26] It’s pretty big, but it’s pretty big, but it’s pretty big whatever, whichever way you want to look at it, it’s pretty big.

[01:05:32] Yeah, I try and stay up and look at everything I physically can to make sure we know we’re covering all the bases. Whether that’s a good management skill, I don’t think it is, but at least it gets us to find out where we’re going wrong, unfortunately. But it’s it’s it’s a learning curve. And I’d say to anybody, look, from a financial point of view, whether it’s property, dentistry or other things, you’re going to make mistakes. But I think try and get a mentor because it will save you a lot of money and bother me.

[01:06:08] So you work four days a week in London and Sire Ancestor and in Orpington, and then on the fifth day teaching every week, is it? No, no. Friday. So was it once, once a month or what is it.

[01:06:23] Twice. Two times a month. So usually on a monday. My schedule is Monday. It’s Mondays are kids. Mondays. Okay, so I do the kids.

[01:06:33] Just Do you sit at home on Monday?

[01:06:35] If I can. Either that or I’ll go and see my parents. So I see my parents if I can take the kids, do paperwork, non dental and dental, pick up the kids, feed the kids, get sleep. So she comes home late on a monday at her. And typical works, finishing late Tuesdays and Wednesdays and Thursdays, usually London working and then Fridays with scientist courses. So the courses are back to twice a month, sometimes three times a month. So this month think we’re doing more. Last month we had so varies. We used in Saturdays are cool We were we were doing courses every Saturday morning. Literally was a lot. And I think one day we were running out courses and I think I was doing about, I think 1 to 25 days non-stop. I think it was 25 or 24 days, literally non-stop clinical, everyday courses.

[01:07:41] Saturday was science. What science is the team who takes care of the academy apart from you and Zainab, is it? How many people is that exactly? Three others or one other. That’s pretty good. That’s. That’s that’s that’s that’s pretty good going, man.

[01:07:57] And then it’s the courses are great. And, you know, it’s a dilemma now because my clinical work I’ve got a waiting list waiting. So two months whenever it’s a bit long in other places. So it’s do we reduce the clinical do we increase the courses? And my kids are too important. So I think my son said to me a few years ago, going in the usual moment, Daddy, can we be a family? Can you be at home? You know, so that was a killer. And I said, No more Saturdays, no more Sundays. But the exception is this month where I’m actually doing two because I had no choice to do two said one Saturday, one Sunday, in fact. Otherwise we stopped the course of the weekend. So it’s just whether we we scale the courses more and there’s demand. We’re lucky. We’ve got waiting lists and we’ve got them here. They’re everywhere. So it’s just whether we do more courses or we cut down the clinical work really. And I enjoy clinical work, I hate the paperwork, but I enjoy clinical work. So it’s.

[01:09:11] And how about ZAYNAB, Does she work in practice now?

[01:09:14] So yes.

[01:09:15] She’s a consultant.

[01:09:15] Yes. As a clinical consultant, teaching three days a week. She’s not doing PhD for two days. So she’s she’s another machine and she does private work about two or three days a month when she can.

[01:09:35] So but where does she teach?

[01:09:38] She’s a guy, She, she’s, she’s dating so she, she, they’re training at guys. So she did her training. All right guys with the usual perio mafia. We’re talking about session. And she stayed and she loves it. She loves the the hospital environment. So. Yeah.

[01:09:57] And what about what about if let’s say, let’s say Zainab and the kids went off to see someone in Paris or whatever and you had a weekend to yourself, what would, what would fun be like for you? Like, what would you do with you? So.

[01:10:11] I.

[01:10:13] I’ve got that feeling. Yeah.

[01:10:20] I’ve got a you know, I started gardening, so I said to you earlier.

[01:10:23] I.

[01:10:24] Just Beaconsfield.

[01:10:27] I bought a lawnmower. What is it called? Electric lawnmower. So summer, I started the gardening. Bloody desert.

[01:10:42] It’s not here.

[01:10:44] I’ve started gardening, so I enjoy that and that. But I’m one of those people. Unfortunately, I don’t switch off when I used to. I think before the kids were born, I would read a lot. I would read a lot. A lot of politics. That’s my obsession because of Dad and everything else. So literally when we got married, my bookshelf was literally Middle Eastern politics. Everywhere I put it, I bought a few cook cookery books, which we used just just to sort of, you know, just think, Oh my God, he’s a hardcore, you know, Middle Eastern politician or such.

[01:11:23] So how do you feel how do you feel when you look at Yemen now?

[01:11:27] Oh, God, this is tragic. I mean, the such.

[01:11:31] A tragedy.

[01:11:32] Yeah. The Middle Eastern thing is wherever you go, God, it’s in other countries, you know that It’s.

[01:11:38] Yeah, I mean, right now in Iran, we’ve got everything going on in Iran. Right?

[01:11:42] Right.

[01:11:43] I mean, most countries tend to tend to progress. But yeah.

[01:11:48] It’s not not Middle East.

[01:11:52] It’s yeah, it’s, it’s it’s tragic. It’s it’s always it’s always the children. It’s always it always innocent ones that suffer. It’s not the politicians always have the money, always have their kids sent abroad. And so it’s it’s your basic personal to live. So you know, I would love to love to go there I’m British but I can’t my British I’m British Middle Eastern. But I’d love to go do some charity work events in the future. Do do some of that. I mean, I’d love to go back and do some more reading, but do I get any free time? Not much. And if I do, is is it Dental? Is it non Dental business? Is it the courses? It’s just trying to juggle, juggle everything and then the kids. The kids now take priority and everything. So the kids are, you know, before, before this I said to you before taking them and you know, how do we where we’re going? So the kids are taking part in that because they’re young, they’re under ten. How old are they? Seven. Three. So a bit too young. And so I’ve got a few more years to go. Yeah. Before they become teenagers. And it’s fun. The good thing is you have a lousy day at work or whatever. You get stuck in the train traffic, you go home, all the kid wants you. They just want, you know, affection, entertainment, food and time. That’s what they want. And that’s the great thing, you know? So it’s it’s there’s also guilt. It’s always like if you do extra work or you’ve got to travel for a day to Scotland or whatever it is, you miss the kids and it’s that guilt. And I find.

[01:13:34] Yeah, I feel I’m on a mission of, of taking guilt out of it, man. I mean, I don’t know. I’ve had this conversation so many times with my guests. Yeah, but. But take guilt out of it, man. I mean, if you’re guilty, you’re at work one day less than if you really guilty. Yeah, Yeah.

[01:13:49] But there’s always work that you’re not guilty. Yeah, I know, but.

[01:13:53] Double your price. Triple your price and work one day. You know what I mean? If you really guilty. Yeah. Yes, of course you could. But what I’m saying that’d be guilty. To be guilty was guilt. Yeah. Like, was your dad guilty that he was diplomatic around what you learnt a lot by looking at that guy.

[01:14:08] I know, but, I mean, I look at my childhood. I had a great childhood and my responsibility as a parent to sort of say, well, look, I will do everything I can for my kids, you know, And it’s not. And I don’t mean that in a financial point. I don’t mean it does everything. Yeah. It’s just being there. And I actually enjoy it. I love being with the kids and they’re great fun. And if you ask me, although I love my clinical work and I love teaching, you know, the other in the family life is the most important bit. At the end of the day, it’s what counts, really.

[01:14:44] I’ve got a question. Do you? Imagine if I gave you $1,000,000,000. What would you do every day? Would you do?

[01:14:52] What I do. I, I, I take, take, take, take family. Probably go to this and charity work and just get get other people to do bits and pieces for me so I can just, you know.

[01:15:08] See even charity. Where I was, I was discussing this. I was discussing this with Sandra. I don’t know if you heard the the podcast with Sandra Garcia Marti, but we were talking about charity work here. And she does this thing. She goes away and and and helps it drills in in this really poor place in the Caribbean where they haven’t even got electricity and all of this. Yeah. And, and I was saying, you know, that there’s an element of charity work here that is self is for you if not for the not. Yeah.

[01:15:38] Yeah. So it’s giving something back. I mean you know.

[01:15:42] It is, it is, is but, but I’m giving you, I’ve given you a billion. Right. So you could, you could take that billion and give it to charity if you really want it you could, you could give half of it away to charity. You know what I mean? The actual doing of the work itself is what would you do with yourself? You know what I mean? What would you do every day?

[01:15:58] I’m quite cynical because that charity one, I want to see where it’s going.

[01:16:03] Sure, sure. You’d set up a whole charity, right? I like that. I like that you’d give back something, though, but. Okay, let’s say you’ve done that. And you know, I never asked this question. Everyone says charity, and they say I’ll go on holiday. Yeah, see, you’ve done that. And you you’ve been on the holidays as well.

[01:16:17] The holiday? I can’t see that you. I’m one of those. I can’t sit down. I’m always answer my pants, as they call it. I’ve got the with the kidney thing.

[01:16:24] Okay. But you could go on holiday to the North Pole and you know, whatever, climb the mountain. But. But what I’m saying is, okay, after you’ve done the holidays and you’ve done the charity, what would you do? It’s an important question to answer. I don’t mean you need you have to answer it right now. Yeah, but it’s an important question to know the answer to because you know why? Because it could be that the thing you could just do tomorrow. That thing you don’t need $1,000,000,000 to like. And if it’s I’ll spend one day with my kids a week, you could do it.

[01:16:57] You know, it’s a beautiful thing. I know.

[01:17:00] But I mean, from a selfish point of view, I would do things for my family. My kids is no doubt about if you ask for something dental, you probably open a dental school or dental clinic and do this. I want to do, you know, sort of pioneer things, if I could. But other than that.

[01:17:18] That would be cool. That would be cool. That would be cool, wouldn’t it pioneer some some something in in interior like some some inkling that you had you could put money behind it and put like these PhD’s on it.

[01:17:30] Like making sure that money was used. Well other than I’m like, I’ve wasted all this money as such.

[01:17:36] True, true.

[01:17:37] I never I never I’m one of those who doesn’t have regrets. I tend to sort of say, well, look, if I can do something, I’ll do it. If I haven’t done it, I don’t think it’s my priority list as such if I’m getting the answer to that question. So but I mean, I do know I really don’t know. I’d probably give it to Zainab to do. She comes up with it with the best ideas. I do. She’s one of, you know, Right. Let’s do this. Let’s do that. Typical to know who can can.

[01:18:16] That.

[01:18:17] Kind of analyse things, get a cookbook and say, let’s do that. And they tend to be right. It’s a it’s a we say between us is a verse is it prefers crystal ball. Some people have and I’m not one of those people she does she sees that person, not me.

[01:18:34] Because you got an Iranian woman. Iranian women are hard. They rule, they rule the roost. So that’s why I married a Lebanese.

[01:18:48] But that’s it, isn’t it? Is that the.

[01:18:53] That’s the Lisa that’s the Lisa connection. Yeah.

[01:18:56] I actually watch the watch side thing. I watch the what’s the the Nissan Vino chap, Lebanese guy who made it run up.

[01:19:05] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Got Rosner.

[01:19:07] Yeah. Yeah. That was a really good Netflix program about that.

[01:19:12] I was there was it called.

[01:19:14] It just came out last week it’s about him look like.

[01:19:17] It just look up his name. Yeah yeah I well, I’m really interested in him.

[01:19:21] Fascinating, interesting character. But anyway that’s, that’s another political thing is that I guess.

[01:19:29] It’s been a massive pleasure talking to you, but we’ve kind of come to the end of the time, so we always end this with the same two questions. So it’s kind of I know perhaps not here, but it’s perhaps in my mind is fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive. How would you. Who would you. Who would you.

[01:19:51] Have? One is Muhammad Ali. Amazing. I think if you go through what you went through the struggle and he’s also bloody witty, sarcastic, witty sarcasm, that’s that’s why I love that.

[01:20:07] But if you if you go down the if you go down a YouTube rabbit hole of Muhammad Ali, you just see so much at one. I did do that one.

[01:20:15] That is marvellous. If you take away the boxing, you know, he’s a phenomenal, fascinating, fascinating.

[01:20:25] Political guy, too. Yeah.

[01:20:28] Very, very, very smart. You think he’s just a boxer? He’s not. This is a very intelligent, intelligent chap. Robert Fisk.

[01:20:40] Oh, really?

[01:20:42] Yeah. I went to listen to him years ago. He’s so brilliant. He lived in your wife’s father. He, you know, British. Irish lived in. And he’s. He’s knowledge of Middle Eastern politics is just. Yeah, brilliant, unfortunately. And it’s.

[01:21:00] Something. I didn’t know that.

[01:21:02] Yeah, he died year two years ago. Phenomenal. Literally suck his brain out in terms of because he’s witnessed everything he witnessed the Afghanistan war we know to what’s been happening recently. So I went to listen to him Fascinating. Offered these books and these books. And then he’s the greatest. I think if you listen to me, much more books are the I’ve read them but I can’t read enjoy them. It’s yeah I think somebody can write well I put my foot in there so. Yeah. Fascinating. Really, really sad. Oh, really shock. He died, unfortunately. And then Nelson. Nelson Mandela.

[01:21:46] Another one. You’re not the first.

[01:21:48] Yeah, he’s. He’s a lady’s book to pick. And again, just to go through what you know, and to forgive, forgive and forget. My God. Yeah. Yeah. Extraordinary. I think you need to forgive and forget. I can’t forget that person. To do what he was able to do is phenomenal. And with a smile on his face. Yeah, it’s. Yeah.

[01:22:22] And the final question then. On your deathbed. So all your friends and family around you. Your nearest and dearest around you?

[01:22:32] Yeah.

[01:22:33] Three pieces of advice. It. Give them.

[01:22:37] A fun. Have fun. We have fun. And I teach my kids, if you have fun, if you come into work or whatever you do, you’re smiling. It’s half the battle, you know? Come with a positive attitude and enjoy what you do. I always think if you enjoy what you do, you’ll excel at it. You do better to engage with people, not better. It’s having that positive attitude. I can do this. You know, this is great, you know? And if you don’t, I start to change. I always. Oh, my God, I’m not happy. I’ll need to change something about it. So have fun.

[01:23:16] It’s a theme. It’s a theme that’s run through everything you’ve said. You said. You said you enjoy work. You said you enjoy teaching. You said you enjoy your kids. I think I can see.

[01:23:26] That whenever I’ve enjoyed working. I’ve got to go. Sorry. I need to leave. And that’s you know, I’ve had that before, either the Monday morning or choose whatever it is. Oh, God. I’ve got to get to this place. That’s the time you’ve got to say so. Have fun. Enjoy what you do. Life. Life’s gone too fast. I turned 50 this year. You know, it’s. Yeah, me too. Yeah. But look. Both. You can’t see them both bald. I got more.

[01:23:59] Have you still got your eyesight? I’m blind, but soon.

[01:24:07] I’m not joking by that point of view. Can I just say, look, let’s have fun. Don’t ignore what people say. You’ve got mentors, but you know, you’ve got haters. People tell you, don’t do this. Can’t do this. You mustn’t do this. Go out and prove them wrong. You know, listen to your instincts. If you think what I know, I can do this. I’m going to do this. I need to do this. Just go out and do it. So have fun. And then really, from the point of view, don’t look back to regret. Don’t regret. You never make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. That’s all part of learning. As long as you know, that’s politics and history, isn’t it? Really? People don’t learn from from mistakes. They repeat the same cycle. So learn the mistakes. You’re going to make mistakes we all do to that point of view. I think one of the podcasts I think I listened to you guys was the amazing book. God, who’s that table tennis player? You read that.

[01:25:15] Book? Yes. Say it. Yeah.

[01:25:17] Yeah. Let’s think outside the box.

[01:25:21] Black box.

[01:25:22] Thinking. Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing. So, look, you kind of make mistakes. You know, we shouldn’t be condemned to it. We all make mistakes. Just learn from it. So learn from the mistakes. Don’t be ashamed by it and just move forward. Don’t have any regrets. And I think that’s the most important thing, right? Those are my three items.

[01:25:47] That was only two. That was only two. Have fun. Don’t look back. What was the third one?

[01:25:51] Regrets?

[01:25:52] It’s the same.

[01:25:53] One. Same thing. He wasn’t there.

[01:25:58] 1111111. One moment.

[01:26:04] I don’t know.

[01:26:09] Probably just be patient. You know? Be patient in life. Everything comes. Comes to good. I honestly think. You think. Oh, God, I made it all comes to you. You know, you go round in circles as such, but at the end of the day, things will work out for the best. They always do. I know you got to go through a bit of hell and shit and this kind of thing, and you just got to say, Look, there’s good days. You have more good days and you have more dark days. And I think if you’re having dark days, get some help. We’ve all been there. So truly, just find somebody who will guide you. That’s what we look forward to in Barrows. I think in the UK, it’s the it’s the Scottish thing of saying I’m too vast to have physical mental health. And it’s sad. I think if you look back when we were kids, Smarties was everywhere. If you want help, you’ve got it really quickly. There’s not a lot of peer pressure. I did identify everything I’ve got to achieve. This must do this. If I don’t do this, I’m a failure now. And I think if you look at even our colleagues that we teach, some people just they work in nowhere, but they’re so content and happy. They just, you know, but nice simple life things go well, but I get it. Get up, get on with it. That’s why.

[01:27:37] It’s.

[01:27:39] Have you have you heard anything by that Mo Gaudet?

[01:27:43] No.

[01:27:45] He was we used to work in, in Google or something and then his his son passed away and then he was talking about is he going to be sad forever or is he going to try and be happy? And he looked into the science or whatever of happiness and he talks about it’s a bit sad today. Truth is a bit sad, but it works. Yeah, it’s still like kind of lower your expectations on stuff, you know? But it just works because it’s very easy to sort of raise your expectations. Oh, this, this, this event, this course, this whatever this this thing is going to be amazing. And then you can only get disappointed from that point.

[01:28:28] You know, don’t have too much expectations really because.

[01:28:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:28:32] You won’t be disappointed if that makes sense.

[01:28:35] Yeah, it plenty works slowly. Your expectations a little bit really does work, man. It’s sad that it works, but it does work. But I’m going to throw in one more question. This might become a regular. What’s your favourite book?

[01:28:46] What’s my favourite book?

[01:28:48] Got some of them.

[01:28:50] Political or just, you know, any book?

[01:28:53] Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. I’m interested in politics, but. But whatever. Whichever. What’s your favourite period?

[01:28:59] But no.

[01:29:01] Don’t answer that.

[01:29:03] I read the book 22 books, one of it by Edward Said, Because I’m fascinated, because he again so political and he was going about the Middle East process and you know, he, he again, he, he died to leukaemia and I read his book, one of his books and it’s just like, you know, too much war, too many things going on and for no apparent reason, comedy. So one particular book, I said, wow, to us, what.

[01:29:36] Was what was that book called This Side one?

[01:29:38] I don’t know. To be honest. It’s I love him to death. But one of the things that she did was to put a lot of my political, political books away, because I tend to be obsessive by reading a lot of them. And then you sort of you sort of you don’t get depressed. You just you just think, hang on. You feel like kicking somebody and saying, come on, change the politics in there. He wrote several books.

[01:30:05] Orientalism.

[01:30:07] Yes.

[01:30:08] I’m looking it up as. I didn’t know that. I just looked.

[01:30:11] Up.

[01:30:12] I should have pretended to have known that.

[01:30:16] I thought you’re looking out for us. Yeah. I can’t really say this one particular book, I i Perrineau. I mean, it’s. I think as soon as you read the book, it becomes old. If that makes sense.

[01:30:36] Yeah, of.

[01:30:36] Course. Yeah. You know, I. If I have any free time, it will tend to be more political books that I, I like to read than anything else. Really?

[01:30:49] That’s amazing. I’ve really, really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you’re such a busy guy. And today, busy with Halloween. I thought. I thought my kids were over it, but it turned out they were. My my daughter still wasn’t. So that’s why I was.

[01:31:08] Thankful it’s not raining at 6:00 because I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Science is still just bucketing with with like, oh God. So we went out with my kids and then some neighbours. It was just, it was great, it was brilliant and thank you so much.

[01:31:26] It’s been a real pleasure. Thanks so much for taking the time.

[01:31:28] Hotel Nice.

[01:31:29] Lovely to have you.

[01:31:32] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

[01:31:48] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. Don’t forget our six star rating.