Transcript

Druh Shah: As soon as you can eat on your plate, carry on. You know, like my friend Miguel Stanley says, and a lot of people say, “Don’t build a higher wall, build a bigger table for the bigger-ment of humanity because together we all succeed.” I think that was a philosophy ingrained in me from a very, very young age.

Intro Voice: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman L: So today on the podcast we’ve got the phenomenon that is Druh Shah, an educator, periodontist, sometimes people forget he’s available for, well, perio- referrals. Druh, thank you so much for coming in. I know you’re busy this-

Druh Shah: No, thank you for inviting me. I’m glad we managed to get a date in place.

Payman L: Yeah, no, I’ve realised how busy you are.

Prav Solanki: Tough man to pin down but-

Payman L: Definitely.

Prav Solanki: I’m sure this interview will be well worth it.

Payman L: Druh is, “You know, I’ve got half an hour between…” “I’ve got half an hour in October.” Druh, tell us a little bit about your early life. Where were you born? How did you grow up? What was your childhood like?

Druh Shah: I was born in Kenya, in Africa. My childhood, I tell you, was very nostalgic. My childhood was one of fun and serious African life childhood and maybe I shouldn’t disclose a lot of it, but I’ll tell you one thing. I think I spent less time in school and more time doing all sorts of silly things. But you grew up in a real community. You grew up with people knowing each other. Even though I grew up in Nairobi, it was people, small community, people knew each other, so I’ve always had a community feel. I grew up in a place which was not far from this untouched forest, at that point. Monkeys, baboons used to be in my backyard all the time. We even had a leopard walk into our backyard when I was a kid. So, I have this love of wildlife I grew up in. I just grew up in watching dichotomy of extremely rich people and extremely poor people, people who were barely surviving the day and you learn to appreciate life and more importantly, you realise actually it was the happier people were the ones who didn’t have things.

Druh Shah: I grew up in this environment of pure collaboration and giving. I think love did nothing, my dad, in that way, was a huge influence with everything. I grew up in the tourist industry. That was my dad’s approach. So I, from a very young age, he put, I think I was about seven or eight, and we had a shop we used to sell tourist goods and tourist curios. He put me in there and said, “Son, sell some stuff for me.” So perhaps I learned how to convince people that these were good products they should buy, but in a nice way did that. I did that. It’s kind of a really vast growing up of different experiences, multicultural, multi types of people. It was brilliant in all aspects overall. I think one thing I learned growing up was my, that society was still very close-minded. Coming to the UK, I’ve realised it’s different, it’s bigger, it’s open-minded.

Payman L: How old were you when you came?

Druh Shah: I was 18. I came here to study dentistry. I did my O-levels and A-levels in Kenya. My biggest passion has always been two big things. They’ve always been music and wildlife so I was a semi-pro wildlife photographer for many years before I started dealing with the microbes of perio. Music-wise, I always played recorder and did theory and all the other stuff that the geeks did. But I play the keyboard. So I did all that growing up there. A part of me has always been exploring beyond just what I do. It’s brilliant and it works from there. Invariably, I had a big, big influence with my sister who passed away five years ago. Massive rock in my life. She grew up in muscular dystrophy and she didn’t have working arms or working legs. A big thing I learned because she was discriminated against massively in Kenya. In that way, the society, the country, the community weren’t thinking. But her example showed me you can break barriers. She was the first person in her primary school to have a special aid unit built for her. Now the 100 people or something in that unit.

Druh Shah: She kind of set hell trailblazing and she was a rock in the life. Many times-

Payman L: Was she older than you?

Druh Shah: She was five years younger than me.

Payman L: Oh, she was younger than you, sorry.

Druh Shah: Yeah. But you see, you find times because everyone else was always very nice to her, very supportive in the family. But I was like the hard-knock brother. She would come home. There was a point she wanted to enter a school. She went there and they literally ignored her so she came back saying, “Just because I am disabled, does that mean that I should be ignored?” I went, “Listen, nobody gives a shit if you’re disabled or not, get on with it. Prove yourself, there’s no time for this.” Invariably, what that ended up doing was I became the person who motivated, inspired her. Because I didn’t take any sadness, just get on with it. When she passed away, she’d become a psychologist, a lawyer, a motivational speaker.

Prav Solanki: Oh my god.

Druh Shah: And she was writing a book. Without two hands or two legs. She was doing this and I felt like, “We’ve got fully functioning body and I’m just a dentist.” As a result, I’ve had to always push my barriers because the more I did, the more she did. The more she did, the more she believed in herself. The more she believed in herself, more I believed in myself. I pushed the barriers more and we kept egging each other on.

Payman L: A massive influence, inspiration to you.

Druh Shah: Yeah. Huge, huge. Five years ago when she went, it’s still a big hole. Massive. I think it’s hard, it was really hard. I’ve never mourned about it. I mean, she passed away on 10th of May, 2014. Eleventh of May we were down there, few days later we had a funeral. Sixteenth of May I was back at work and 17th of May I moved house and I never stopped. I’ve never had a chance to reflect, think, or mourn about it. I’ve just said, “I’ll carry on her spirit.” One day, I’ll break down about it but until then, what she believed in, what she did, is what I try and do to others. This is the kind of background I grew up in.

Druh Shah: I grew up in the… going and doing the wildlife photography in Africa, grew up in seeing the poor kids who barely could afford, forget school fees, they couldn’t afford 50 p for the daily lunch bread. We eat the big Nando’s here, piri-piri chickens or whatever, but they did not afford simple, simple stuff. It has a huge impact on you that you see people who have full potential in life, and they can’t achieve this, and you’ve got to, got to, got to give them a way. Ultimately, that became part of my purpose. Two big things became part of my purpose. Helping people achieve their potential and inspiring people to know that they can achieve their potential.

Payman L: In the third world, it’s easy to put that pain and suffering into the background radiation to stop feeling it because it’s everywhere.

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Payman L: Do you think it’s because of your sister, or is there something else about you that made you actually think about that?

Druh Shah: I think it’s more than just my sister, more than the society I grew up in. Those two are big factors. I think it’s my parents, as well. That they were giving type. My dad was an entrepreneur, as well. I don’t know how many businesses he’s done, had good luck, and bad luck through it all. But he never stopped giving. He never stopped giving. I think there was that strong influence that, listen, as soon as you can eat on your plate, carry on. Like my friend Miguel Stanley says, and a lot of people say, “Don’t build a higher wall, build a bigger table for the bigger-ment of humanity because together we all succeed.” I think that was a philosophy ingrained in me from a very, very young age.

Druh Shah: The sister’s influence, seeing this all the time as an influence, having parents with that, I think it was far too much subconsciously probably putting it in my system.

Payman L: How did it feel arriving in the UK from that life with the colours, the weather, the food, and then arriving in the UK. Had you been to the UK several times before that or what was your story?

Druh Shah: I came to the UK maybe when I was about six years old and never been before. I mean, after that.

Payman L: After that.

Druh Shah: I came here for about five days for my interviews and that’s it. Never really experienced the city. I tell you what, it was a culture shock. I moved to Sheffield where I knew no one and didn’t realise, bloody hell, it gets dark by three o’clock here. You talk about the weather and it gets cold.

Payman L: No leopards in the

Druh Shah: All this is different animals in the pubs and the bars. You kind of see a whole different society, different culture, which was a big challenge. Now, one of the biggest things I found was in university. I think a lot of the people who came to university, there was a culture of, “Let’s go out, let’s go drinking, let’s go do this.” Now, I’ve done that since I was 13, in school, being the rebel. It wasn’t exciting for me. When I got into university, something like Freshers’ week, where everyone’s downing the shots and I kind of sat there and thought, “What next?”

Payman L: Plus you’re paying foreign fees and you’ve got the struggle to get here in the first place, so you’re going to make the most of the education, right?

Druh Shah: I think that was part of it, part of it. But also I think by this time I was probably two steps ahead

Payman L: You’d lived out that-

Druh Shah: Lived that out and also two steps ahead in the fact of this life experience I might have had. But what really shocked me into system was the third year, because the fees I was paying was about 20 grand a year, and then, your living expenses. But in my third year, my dad sent me a text message and said, “Druh, everything we’ve had has been wiped out. You’ve got to quit and come back.”

Prav Solanki: Jeez.

Druh Shah: “There is no way I can pay your fees anymore.”

Payman L: Business failed?

Druh Shah: Well, business failed, it was Africa. A few banks collapsed and all of our savings went down the, well, wherever they went. It was very surreal as a moment because if this is a movie, beep beep, someone picks a text up and there’s a frozen moment. It wasn’t. A text came, money’s gone. You go, “Okay, I’ve got to move on. I’ve got to think of solutions.”

Druh Shah: Next thing, I had 100 CVs and I was out there in Meadow Hall giving them out and going out to the shops and going, “Right, who’s giving me a job here?” Because I said to my dad, “I’m not coming back.” Let’s face it, when I first came and with the crap weather and new people, I was going to quit then. My dad said, “Fine, if you want to quit, come back.” I said, “Thanks, Dad. Now you told me, I’m going to behave the other way around and I’m going to be a rebel.”

Druh Shah: Come the third year, I said the same. “I’m going to survive.” Nine-to-five you do university, 5:00 you get on to the train to Meadow Hall. Six to 11:00 you’re on your feet, selling shoes at Revel. I’ve worked in burger bars, I’ve worked in shoe shops, I’ve worked in chocolate shops. I can tell you every chocolate at that point in time.

Payman L: You earned the money to pay your fees?

Druh Shah: I earned the money, I got a small scholarship at home, I borrowed money, I did anything and everything. I don’t know where, when, how, but we managed it through. I graduated-

Payman L: For that year? Or for

Druh Shah: The next three years.

Payman L: You’re kidding me.

Druh Shah: For three years. My debt was 84,000 when I graduated. But beyond me, there was a purpose. Ultimately, the purpose was that, and I couldn’t quit because it was me and my sister and my family. Everyone had their hopes on me, I couldn’t let anyone down. But more importantly, it was for my own self. It was a challenge and it was almost life saying, “Bring it on.” I mean, “What can you throw at me?”

Prav Solanki: Everyone knows you’re a workaholic, right?

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Everyone knows you do these crazy hours. Up early, bed late, and you don’t stop and you don’t switch off. Did that start when you were doing Uni at day, work at night?

Druh Shah: Possibly. I mean, I think it started before that, before I came here for Uni. The problems, the troubles had begun. I mean, I was always a learning geek so at home I was doing four A-levels. I was doing my music grade A at that time, I was still doing my wildlife photography. I’ve always been in and around, I’m a geek.

Payman L: IT geek, as well.

Druh Shah: IT geek, as well, probably. My dad says I’m misplaced in dentistry. My family say, “You should have gone into IT.” Mark Zuckerberg wouldn’t exist. No. That’s what they say. But I think everything has a purpose and reason. But the university definitely intensified that, that you come home at midnight, you don’t eat. I’ve gone through days without food. I’ve gone through days living off Maryland double chocolate chip cookies.

Prav Solanki: They’re damn good, though.

Druh Shah: They’re super and I’m addicted to biscuits now but there’s a guy near our house who sold me four massive packs. Not the normal size, the large size, packs for a pound. Four packs, you have to see it in my bag, and I’d have a little bit at breakfast, a little bit at lunch, and a little bit at 4:00.

Prav Solanki: Jeez.

Druh Shah: I’d finish until midnight, living off biscuits. Sometimes, if I got into Sheffield City Centre in good time, there was a chippy there and you knew this guy will turn up. He’d keep some chips and two samosas for me, 50 p, every time, with mint sauce. I remember eating these on my way home. I’d get home for midnight to half twelve, and I’d work until 2:00-3:00. We lived in a massive house and by 5:00-6:00 you’re awake and-

Prav Solanki: Work til 2:00-3:00?

Druh Shah: Studying. Studying until 2:00-3:00.

Prav Solanki: So your typical day, just map this out for me. You wake up at what time? Just give me a day in the life of university, as Druh.

Druh Shah: University, wake up at, look, we were in a house of five people with one shower. If you didn’t get up in time, you were late. So up at 5:00, 5:30 I’d be in the shower. I’d come back to the room, I’d do some reading, I’d do my, whether I’d do my self-awareness, my meditation bits, I’d do whatever needs doing, get that

Prav Solanki: You’re meditating and self-aware at that time in university, were you?

Druh Shah: Yeah. I’ve always been-

Prav Solanki: Way before this became a fashionable thing to do, right?

Druh Shah: That’s right.

Prav Solanki: Was it guided meditation? Were you reading books? Was

Druh Shah: It was none of that. It was… meditation’s being with yourself.

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Druh Shah: Sit down, just chill, breathe and chill.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Druh Shah: It’s before it became fashionable. Yoga’s had influence when I was a kid and it is just sit and think. That’s what I did for a bit. I used to work, I used to read other books, I did a lot of stuff then. Then, 7:00, breakfast, half-seven we’d walk down to university. You’d have uni from your 9:00-5:00. Five o’clock I’d walk to the tram, it takes about 45 minutes to get to Meadow Hall where I worked. So 6:00 you get there, and you’re straight on the shop floor, 6:00-10:00. Christmas time, 6:00-11:00 you’d be pretty much-

Prav Solanki: Five days a week or?

Druh Shah: Legally, I was only allowed to work 20 hours a week at the maximum, so that’s what we did. Other days I was, in the evenings, working at home. I then would come back home about 11:00 or 12:00, time to do the assignments, my revision. I’m not the guy who does last minute exam revision. So, I always stayed up and then 2:00-3:00, I’d go to bed, having done that. Part of me always wanted a website so I built a mega portfolio of Kenya. Every single lodge, every single phone part. I used to do that as a side project at that point.

Druh Shah: I had a tutor who was doing the diploma, at least, very clever guy but he said, “I don’t know how to use Microsoft Word.” So he’d give me his write-up and I’d type up his assignment. Not the work, but just type it up and then email him and say, “There.” That was my revision. Various things I used to do. There’s not enough hours in the day, ever.

Prav Solanki: No socials, no parties, no-

Druh Shah: I used to, every now and then, but not as heavy as most people. Going out and doing that, now and then I’d get drunk, but not as much. There was a focus and a drive and I had to do this because I… survival. That was my gig at that point. And it’s a philosophy I carry on. Socials and parties somehow, I struggle with them. Maybe I’m an anti-socialite, I don’t know. But it’s part of the game that I think that what I did was-

Prav Solanki: Bigger cause. Yeah.

Druh Shah: The thing is, I graduated with this big debt and there was a rule at that time, in the UK, foreign national, you can’t work in the country. Off you go, back home. So I kind of sat there and thought, “I’ve got an 84,000 pound debt and I’ve got to now go back home. No way.” At that point, you can see on television there was these long queues of patients outside dentists in the sort of outreach areas of the country. Big issues in Wales and someone alerted it to me and so we went to speak to a Dean.

Druh Shah: I said, “Dean, listen. You’ve got a problem. I’ve got a problem. You’ve got a problem, no dentists. I’ve got problem, no job. Sort this out.” We were the first group with a Welsh parliament who got the approval to do VT in Wales. The conditions were: one, you must go to the complete nether region; two, you must stay there for at least two years; and three, may you must show evidence of post-graduate education. I said, “That’s all fine. Your guys will pay for my education.” Which they did. But, ultimately, it put it to me that if you fight hard, you can build your opportunities.

Druh Shah: Part of my vision became nobody should go through what I did. Education through the world was my first vision. Help people, give them the access, break down the barrier. Enough. All these years, division’s slowly unravelling itself. But that really drove things forward. Over the years, I’ve thought outside the box. I’ve always found ways to make things happen and I think if any of these young dentists come going, “Dentistry’s hard. We’re going to get sued. This is…” No, it’s not. It’s… find your opportunities. Get out of your comfort zone. Find your ways and niche and you will seriously go. You know, mid-Wales, I was only Indian dentist in town. Even then, we used to do stuff and there was no referrals. There was no one else so we had to do all the treatments.

Prav Solanki: Druh, it’s easy for you. I don’t mean… I mean it with the greatest respect. It’s easy for you to sit there and say it’s not difficult but you are a character and a half, okay? I think about sometimes people talk about these problems or when you face a problem, if you think hard enough and try hard enough, the solution will come, right?

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: There’s the old, I don’t know where this story comes from, but the truck that got caught under the bridge. The further the truck went, the more damaged it got, and then he tried to back out and it was stuck. Then, some little kid in the background said, “Why don’t you let the tyres down?” The truck went through. That’s what I think when I think of you. Because when you face this adversity, you find a solution. You work your Meadow Hall job or you go to Wales or whatever. Nothing’s too difficult you say. What do you think it is about you, as an individual, your make-up that makes you who you are? There are not many people like you that have got that drive, that ambition, and that pig-headed discipline, I’d call it. Just the, “You know what? Throw whatever you want at me. Come and get it.”

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: “I’m going to prove you all wrong.”

Druh Shah: Look, it’s actually, everyone’s like me. It’s the potential’s there. It’s how you tap into it.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Druh Shah: It’s only recently I’ve started discovering this and knowing this, which is where we are going now for the next 10 years with Tubules. But on your left, where we set now, you’ll see a book. It’s called Passionate Work. It’s understanding passion and grit. Those are my two books I’m reading at present in the [inaudible 00:20:37]. Ultimately, it is becoming that. Adversity creates a person. Unbelievably, adversity creates a person. Part of me, all this adversities created me. But we’re all faced with adversity every day. It’s how you handle that adversity and how you build that mindset. Tony Robbins has made billions teaching people this. But more importantly, he’s taught people this mindset creation. The fact is, mindset creation is created through education, through surrounding yourself with the right people. It’s extremely, extremely powerfully important to surround yourself with the right community of people. I’m going to say this in a twisted way, but you go on Facebook and you find a mix of it.

Druh Shah: Some things on Facebook are helpful. Some things on Facebook are absolutely powerfully negative and you may just scroll past these things, but they’ve entered your subliminal subconscious. Now, if you keep scrolling past six things saying, “Dentistry’s shit, dentistry’s this,” guess what? It’s going to enter your brain. Stop it. Find the community that’s positive and working for you. That takes that one step of thinking away for you to say, “Is this a positive or negative post? Should I take it in?” Find that. You then start building the mindset that takes you into the passion pathway. The truth is, the more I’ve studied this, the more I’ve realised, I had to do it out of pure situational circumstantial stuff. But I learned things that help you develop this. If you start pressing those buttons, my God, the potential for every single one of us is absolute powerful.

Druh Shah: I worked out this philosophy over the last couple of months that is called motivate, grow, thrive. That’s what I think we do at Tubules. We motivate you first. Then, you help you grow into what you want to be because that’s when you thrive. You probably have been through 20 years, but that’s what, hopefully that answers what you’re saying. It’s doable. Anyone can do it.

Prav Solanki: Just that you’ve unlocked it, right?

Druh Shah: Sorry?

Prav Solanki: You’ve unlocked it.

Druh Shah: I guess I’m unlocking it.

Prav Solanki: You’re unlocking it.

Druh Shah: Don’t know if I’ve unlocked it but I’m unlocking it. I had the natural instinct to unlock it like any pioneer I had to dig the grass out, but there’s a pathway I can now see and people can walk through that pathway.

Prav Solanki: Your visions are Tubules. That obviously started in its grass roots when you were struggling and you wanted to make… if I’m understood you right, education accessible to all. Is that right?

Druh Shah: Part of it. But there’s a backstory again that carries on from here because I graduated. I went through this difficulty, so my first value became that nobody should go through this. I must help them for education to the world. But then I went to do my perio specialties training and within the first year I was going to quit because although I had the world’s best intellectual people, God’s sake they could not inspire me. Because I’m a nutter and an out-of-box thinker. I started Tubules then. But it was that connection of people that Tubules brought me with that brought back my inspiration.

Druh Shah: My big sort of things I want to give people now for Tubules is not just education. Beyond education, what do we want to do? From our end, our values become we want to help people. We want to then inspire them, build that fire in their belly, not under their bum, and connect these inspired people around. You connect these inspired people together and God’s sake you can see the energy that builds up there. The way you do that is you motivate people, you grow them, and you thrive them. That’s what we give every Tubulite the ability to motivate themself and to grow to a level where they thrive.

Prav Solanki: Community, one of the things I see, whether it’s on Facebook, wherever. Even if it’s just a conversation with someone, I mean these people have names. The Tubulites. Okay, yeah. Your followers.

Payman L: Yeah. Followers.

Prav Solanki: But it is and the one thing that keeps coming back to me is the beginning of this interview, that you were brought up in a community and community was strength and everything and you witnessed that, everyone coming together, working together as a team. Is that where the Tubules’ foundation was grown, do you think, in terms of… the first thing that came to my mind was connecting that with Tubules. Does that relate?

Druh Shah: Totally. Totally. As part of my discovery, I’ve realised I’m just reliving my inside on the outside with Tubules. I think it is, it has come from that. The communities, the collaboration, the people. The biggest power in this world is people and resource. Look at China, one billion people. That’s why it’s thriving. But the biggest, it’s power is people. If you can bring people of the same values together, that’s what creates that momentum. That’s what it is. If you can do that, it works really well. Passionate people, when they’re really passionate, it’s not just an intense love for what they do. Passionate dentists or people, it’s not intensely just loving what they do. It’s actually not just investing the time for what they do, but they develop an identity.

Druh Shah: You start building these behaviours and actions that fit what you do and that’s what Tubulites call themselves proudly because that’s their identity. We’re Tubulites because our behaviour is about working together with others, to help and inspire others while we grow ourself. We’re motivating and growing and thriving, but we’re doing that to others. That community, that identity, comes to place. I’ve always seen that. Community together helps people build identities together. If you can do that, everything else just kind of works. Seth Godin talks about tribes. It’s part of that picture.

Druh Shah: If you think about it, yes, my whole backstory of my community, I grew up in my backstory about the bigger world, the environment, doing good for the world. My backstory about motivating my sister, all of these things seem to be feeding the Tubules, motivating people, building community, building it together. But here’s a powerful thing. Let’s go back to dentistry. Let’s go back to talking about BDA, who are meant to represent dentists. These people who sit and say, “Actually, we’ve asked the government and they’re not listening.” Listen, government’s never going to listen because it’s an extrinsic problem.

Druh Shah: We, as dentists, have super values within us. We want to deliver top quality care for our patients. We want to look after people, ultimately. That’s why you went into dentistry, and the money comes as a side effect of that because you do this. You’re building trust with another human being, all these things. I want to build a community of the right values’ people. People who want to help out each other because you know what? That community of dentists in the future is going to go out to the public and engage with the public to change the face of dentistry as a profession. To say, we are not the money grubbers and fast car driving people. We’re interested in you. There’s a whole… we’re building this pathway. If we can engage the public, guess what’s going to happen? A real momentum boost for the profession. But you need a really powerful community.

Druh Shah: Beyond education and motivating people, it’s a bigger picture thinking

Payman L: Why do you think dentistry suffers with the disunity we sometimes see?

Druh Shah: It suffers from the dis unity that we see now and then is because we’ve never touched down to the values. If you think about dentists, dentists were taught to deal with the tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth. Ultimately, they think like that. They think small, they think detailed, they think that bigger picture thinking is missing. True leadership in dentistry’s thinking leadership is, “Here’s a vision. Here’s a vision, let’s go towards it.” What’s his name, “I have a dream.” Who kind of said there-

Prav Solanki: Luther King.

Druh Shah: Luther King. There were thousands of people there. Do you think those thousands of people were there because they saw Martin Luther King’s dream? No. They were there because they had the same dream as him. Their values aligned and he said, “You’ve got that dream I have here, so a vision. This is where we will go.” Dentistry needs that. Dentistry is disunited because all these people with different values are not being brought together under one vision, under one mission. That vision is very clear. It’s we’re looking after patients.

Druh Shah: How we look after them is different and what people end up doing because of the details, they start looking at how you do something and what you do and how you do something and what you do. Our hows may be different, our whats may be different, or whys the same. There is nobody who has worked hard enough to bring that why together.

Payman L: I think one side of it is because we’re interested in patient care and we seem to be interested in patient care that sometimes gives you the licence to be rude to each other because we’re so worried about the patient.

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Payman L: You know what I mean?

Druh Shah: Yeah. That’s the how. Again, I’m rude to you because you’ve done patient care the way I wouldn’t do patient care.

Payman L: Yeah.

Druh Shah: Then, I think, “You didn’t skin the cat the way I skin the cat.” If I sit there and say, “Listen, help, inspire, connect, our three powers are. I’m going to help that patient, I’m going to inspire them, and motivate them to look after their health. I’m going to connect them with other patients who are like that.” Blimey hell. Now we’re singing from the same hymn sheet. If we sing from the same hymn sheet, we’re going to say, “It’s fine. You skin that cat a different way.” But you know what, brilliant. Obviously, I think UK society doesn’t celebrate success as much as, I don’t know, American or Indian or other societies, if you’re doing well.

Druh Shah: UK society likes to almost bring people down who are rising up. I’ve seen this, definitely. Do we celebrate success better? Do we celebrate that someone’s done something well for patients? Is this an initiative we should take? In fact, I’ll put it out to you. Your products enlighten the composite you use with their enamel. They’re going after changing patients’ lives, aren’t they? All day long. Can we use this as an initiative to say, “How will dentists change a patient’s life?” I don’t know. But we think there’s some power amidst all this.

Payman L: I think certainly with Tubules, that purpose-driven endeavour, people can see when something’s purpose-driven. People can feel it. We could sit down with my marketing team and we could say, “Listen, we’re putting all this amazing whitening stuff out and people can see that purpose makes something happen. So let’s put out a purpose-driven thing.” People would see straight through that. But with Tubules, because of you, really, it’s different. It’s different from the beginning and it’s been difficult to even give you sponsorship. I mean, I know we had the discussion about, you came over, you said, “Hey, I’m doing this thing.” I said, “Well, do we need another GDPUK?” We’re talking 10 years ago. That was 10 years

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Payman L: I said, “Do we need another forum? Is the internet even going to work?” I didn’t have any money and then you never followed up and your purpose wasn’t profit.

Druh Shah: It never is.

Payman L: It never is. People can feel that and interestingly, when the purpose isn’t profit, people get behind it in a nice way sometimes. Not always.

Druh Shah: Not always. Look, everyone’s got different values.

Payman L: With this leadership that you’ve got going on, I mean, were you always naturally the leader of the gang when you were skipping off school?

Druh Shah: No, I was

Payman L: Grown into this?

Druh Shah: I wasn’t. I was a rebel without a cause. I was not a leader of a gang because I couldn’t go in with a gang because they all had the same approach. I had

Payman L: Outside?

Druh Shah: I was this outsider, who watched things, and quietly made, and quietly did something differently and then managed to piss people off. Now, I jokingly say, “I’ve got two hashtags I love living by. One is hashtag rebel without a cause. And now it seems like there is. The second one is hashtag piss them off.” Because if you piss them off you disrupt things and think differently. Yeah, that’s what

Payman L: I can imagine you sitting around the board table with… going through that must kill you. That must kill you, having to go through the process of a board meeting. You have to stand up and be the inspirational guy in the-

Druh Shah: Sitting around a board and discussing-

Prav Solanki: Minutiae.

Druh Shah: Having a meeting about a meeting doesn’t excite me. No purpose, get the result. What’s the outcome? Ultimately, we need to do that anyway. But yeah, that’s me. We’re going to get there. How are we going to get there? That’s ultimately what it is. For me, yeah, profit is someone’s changing life. I’ll tell you a story of a guy who was within that NHS treadmill, struggling day in, day out. His family life was suffering. He had a five-year-old kid at that point and he was with his wife, and strain and tension in their relationship, and all this happening. Someone picked him out and said, “Become a study director.” He got Tubulized, ultimately, he got Tubulized. Or he got the disease.

Prav Solanki: Tubulite gets tubulized.

Druh Shah: This disease called Tubulitis, which is the energy, the inspiration. But he then, he got so passionate about industry, he changed cities. He now travels a bit. But I’ll tell you what happened. His life changed. His quality of life changed. He got more time with his wife and more time with his kid. Now, I was sitting in a lecture and out of the blue, this WhatsApp message came. My phone goes, “Ping ping ping” all the time and you have the… but I just, this message caught my eye. “Thank you for introducing us to a world we never even thought existed in UK dentistry. Our lives are better for it.”

Druh Shah: Not our education, not our knowledge. But our lives. That’s not their lives, it’s that 80-year-old’s life, with two happy parents. That’s going to make that kid grow up into a super future. You think 10 steps beyond just getting this guy to run a study club and deliver some education. That’s what it does. Tubulitis is all about that. Changing lives like this, that’s the profit that delivers for me. If I can do that day now, and dentistry’s in a place right now where there’s so many people disillusioned. Which is why I always say, “We want to motivate, grow, and thrive them.” We’ve got to do it.

Prav Solanki: So, Druh, you’ve just touched upon a point about this guy, whoever it was, that his work-life balance or family life was suffering. Just talk to me a little bit about what your life is like outside of dentistry, if it does exist. Who is involved in that, and do you actually have a work-life balance?

Druh Shah: I don’t. Because I think for passionate people, like me, work-life balance is a misnomer.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Druh Shah: It’s almost saying, you’re asking me to think that what I do is work. It’s not. My life is my work, if you will, my work is my life. But I love it. But here’s my important part for me, which I’ve learned. I was obsessively passionate enough to do this all the time. It can happen that other parts suffer. More than work-life balance, it was self-awareness to realise when I need to stop. It’s almost like running a marathon. You run a marathon, if you’re running every day you’re going finish your muscles. Recovery is needed for those muscles to grow even stronger. Then, you run the marathon stronger. Now when you’re resting, it doesn’t mean you’re not working. You’re still subconsciously processing things.

Druh Shah: Twenty-four hours a day, technically, at some level or another, my brain is working. I’m working. But I’m probably not actively and constantly engaged with work. That’s the work-life balance. Outside of my work, life is family, at level. My wife, who thinks that I should be spending more time with her often enough, and I have an 18 month old toddler.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Druh Shah: Probably, for the first time my life, I put my phone and gadgets away and spend dedicated time with him, doing stuff and realising this. At this point, I guess, that it’s very an important thing that I say and Anoop, who we lost last week and that a real, tragic shocking thing. Now, in April, I did a talk on fear of failure and how Tubules nearly failed and it’s a talk worth watching for a lot of people scared of failure. A lot of people say it was one of the most powerful talks and it got their nerve, got their hearts, got their soul. But Anoop said something very important, “Through his Tubulite we’ll find another tubules, but your son won’t find another father.” I tell you what, the man gave me, it was like an elder brother. But I sit there with him, and every time I spend time with my boy, I remember Anoop. Part of my life is him. Because part of my responsibilities to motivate this kid so he grows and thrives into a positive life.

Druh Shah: Other part of my work-life is this Tubules foundation charity that we’ve built with a vision to build 10 schools around the world. These 10 schools are going to have children there who don’t need a teacher because we’ll use the technology to change their life. They will teach each other. I invest time in that to doing stuff along there. Obviously, I need to spend time with my own fitness and my own personal health, but I still engage as much as I can. What I enjoy, my photography, or my time with nature, or my music. I do all that and that’s why I can’t sleep much, because-

Prav Solanki: How much do you sleep?

Druh Shah: I get two to three hours on a good night.

Payman L: Jesus.

Payman L: Wow. Jeez.

Druh Shah: That’s what I survive on. Don’t quote me that book that says sleeps help your brain develop ultimately-

Prav Solanki: You read the book?

Druh Shah: No, I don’t think I’ve read

Payman L: He doesn’t want to read it.

Druh Shah: I don’t want to read it.

Payman L: Before you came, you were saying you go to bed when I go to bed. But then you wake up when Prav wakes up.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, it’s a perfect combination. This morning I was up at 4:15 but I was tucked up by 9:15, 10:00. Pay goes to bed at 3:00 and wakes up much later and you’re a combo of Pay and Prav.

Payman L: Jeez. That can’t be healthy though, Bud, can it?

Druh Shah: I don’t know. Maybe not but I’d rather, listen, my philosophy is I’d rather live a short, impactful life than a long one where the government’s messed my pensions up. But it’s that, I think there’s just, even if I try to sleep, I can’t.

Payman L: Yeah.

Druh Shah: There’s drive, there’s passion, there’s this energy within me that gets me up at 5:00 going, “Oh, good, an idea. This light bulb that doesn’t let you sleep.” Now, I’ve got a toddler who’s like that.

Prav Solanki: Do you feel whacked? I mean, do you feel, do you ever walk around feeling like a zombie or? Sometimes, if I can’t sleep at night for whatever, my brain’s firing away and then-

Payman L: But the thing is, you get used to-

Prav Solanki: No, no, no I get that. Because people ask me, “Why do I wake up early?” But do you walk around feeling completely whacked? Or have you completely normalised-

Druh Shah: It depends who I’m walking with. If I’m on my own, I’m fine. If I’m with energetic people, I’m on the move, that sort of thing.

Payman L: For all we know, that lack of sleep that he’s got cuts out the bullshit. For all we know. That’s the cat he is. If he slept, there’d be loads of crap, cobwebs in his head. You know what I mean? For all we know, that could be it. He’s definitely thriving, isn’t he?

Prav Solanki: No, without question. Just to give you an insight into that book, the guy talks about the sum total of people who are better off when you take an average with less than seven or eight hours sleep or whatever. It rounds up to zero, okay. However, he’s talking about an average and the sum total, so maybe you’re that tiny, tiny outlier. Outlier, yeah?

Payman L: He’s definitely an outlier.

Druh Shah: Every now and then I’ll get moments when I’ll just knock out for hours on end. That’s my recharge. Tesla. That sort of thing really. I’ll do that every few months.

Payman L: That happens to me, too. That happens to me, too. Maybe once a month. Once a month I end up-

Prav Solanki: Have a good night’s sleep? Or a good day’s sleep?

Druh Shah: Or something.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Druh Shah: It does that but I guess it’s the way it worked. But that’s what enables me to achieve things I do and keep that work-life balance and watch things, do things, engage with people, all this. More importantly, I think the lesson learned is focus and you can easily, if you don’t know your values, your priorities, which I probably was still finding, you can easily get sidetracked, which wastes time and focus becomes very important. Michael Hyatt’s book is worth reading on that. But once you know your focus, the hardest thing-

Prav Solanki: What’s it called?

Druh Shah: Michael Hyatt, something on focus. It is focus is the main word on it.

Payman L: Hyatt?

Druh Shah: I’ll tell you that focus It’s a very good book. The hardest thing to do is say, “No.” I’ve learned to do that more and more now. Say, “No.” It’s brilliant. It’s not just brilliant for me, because I say, “No,” and I suddenly realise I’m glad I said, “No,” because ultimately this was not going to contribute to where this road is leading, the path, the vision, But it’s so funny because people want to join Tubules and we’ve realised, it’s a misconception out there at CPD website and the people are going, “Well, why are you seven times more expensive than others?” But we’re using CPD to motivate people. It’s not there. These people, I’ve said, “Look, we’re not seven times more expensive than others. Actually, this is not for you, because you’re looking for something else.”

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Druh Shah: That ability to say, “No,” to them has turned things around for people to say, “Wait, wait, wait. What do you mean, ‘Not for me?'” It starts and they come in. From a business, I hate calling it business, I call it project point of view, 12 months, our revenues have gone up 136% on the ability to say, “No.” Focus and no have become one of the biggest things for me, interestingly.

Payman L: Druh, what’s a typical day for you? I know you’ve got perio days, you said, two days a week, is that?

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Short days from, what was it, 9:00 to 7:00?

Druh Shah: Nine to seven is my day in clinic.

Payman L: Maybe we’ll get to perio, but on a Tubules day-

Druh Shah: It’s variable.

Payman L: What time you waking up?

Druh Shah: I’m normally up between 4:30 and 5:00, something like that. And it’s normally either I wake up, or my toddler wakes me up, one of the two. What I now do is I spend that first half an hour, whatever it is, an hour, whatever time I’ve got available, doing nothing. Coffee, reflecting, it’s as if I’m meditating.

Prav Solanki: Don’t pick your phone up?

Druh Shah: No. I used to, I don’t know. I love a quick glimpse but that’s it. I don’t do more than replying to things or anything like that. Just if anything urgent sitting down. But you learn to do that. That’s typically about 6:00, 6:30 he’s up and you get him ready and drop him to school and normally by 7:30, 8:00 I’m back into the start of the day. That day may be that we’re filming, in which case I’ll be on my way to the studio.

Payman L: Is there an office?

Druh Shah: No, we have a mobile studio. Filming could be done at a conference, filming could be done in a hotel room, wherever. That day could be meetings. I will not schedule meetings early in the day for that reason, simply because I use the first few hours, if I’m not driving, really focusing on the jobs because that’s when my peak performance hours are. Nighttime, between 12:00-3:00, and morning between 7:00-10:00. I’ll do all the tasks I need, at that energy and attachment and drive. Then, 10:00 I might have meetings. I might have things going on. It may be we’re filming. While we’re doing all this, the phone calls, the WhatsApps, the Facebooks, all these messages carry on, so between that you’re always answering

Payman L: Are there employees?

Druh Shah: There are six people in the team, doing the job of 38 people. Better than it was three yeas ago when I was one person doing the job of 38 people while doing dentistry full-time and operating Tubules. I built it with no sleep, all the money, all the time. Everything I had went into it. I was a

Payman L: How much cash do you think you’ve put into it?

Druh Shah: I’ll be honest with you, probably in excess of 120 grand of my cash has gone into the business. If you invest the time and everything else you’d be silly, but there’s at least 120 grand and there was an amount that was paid back, which I’m not even including in that.

Payman L: Told you were hitting a cash crisis and you had to just fund it?

Druh Shah: I had to find investors. More than cash crisis, I was eating a five point of personal person crisis. I could only work until 38 people. I couldn’t replicate myself to work into 39 or 40 people. It was a point, not only that, but Tubules was growing. Tubules was becoming much, more more, more users. Invariably, my duties to serve and support them. So, individually, I couldn’t do so much so I had to bring a team on board. That’s when we went to our first round of funding, three years ago.

Prav Solanki: How’d you go about finding another Druh Shah who’s going to take that load as an individual, and he’s going to do the work of six, seven, eight people?

Druh Shah: You can’t. You can’t. Our next round of funding’s to bring more people. I’ve now got to build a team and that’s part of my growth process. From being an individual, I’ve got to become a leader. What powers a team to become leaders and deliver the vision?

Prav Solanki: But those six people are still doing the job of more than one individual, right?

Druh Shah: Yes.

Prav Solanki: There must be something special about them-

Payman L: Or you.

Prav Solanki: Or you. Are they staying after 5:30 a lot?

Druh Shah: Listen, here’s a story I’ll tell you. One day at, Ifti’s our content manager, and the guy who does the online support with me. Ifti’s a PhD guy, he’s done PhD in a medical, microbiology. He’s an academic. You go to his house, massive library, very cool guy, very intelligent guy, he’s like me, an insomniac. One, two o’clock at night we will have on our WhatsApp group, this next-level intellectual conversation about psychology or behavioural science or adult learning. But here’s the story I’ll tell you to answer your question.

Druh Shah: One day, at 2:30 at night, we were having this conversation. I asked a question, “By the way, randomly, what happened to that event or something that had happened?” David, our CFO stepped in and said, “Yeah, I’m dealing with it.” Kallah, who’s our operations, at 3:00 at night went in and said, “Druh, by the way, I spoke to this guy, as well.” Jemeesh, who you know, does our media, went, “Yeah, just I’ve got the filming date, my diary.” I went, “Guys, it’s 3:00 AM. What the hell are you guys doing?” The response was, “We’ve got Tubulitis, as well, Druh.” This is the team.

Prav Solanki: Unbelievable.

Druh Shah: I don’t tell them when to work, how they work. They work when they want, how. It’s what I’ve instilled in them, is this is our vision, let’s make a change. You decide how, when, what you want to do, as long as we achieve these steps in the way. That’s how I like doing things. I think that’s what the team is about. It’s that energy, that drive, that passion.

Druh Shah: Our first conference, in 2017, Ifti was with us until midnight. He then took everything to the editor and went home to bed. At 4:00, he was back at the editor’s picking things up, so he was operating on my sleep routine. He then said to me, “Druh,” or he didn’t say to me, he said somebody else, “If this was any other corporate, bloody hell I’d be pissed off, asking for more pay, and going home. But Druh, I just love, I’m having fun doing this.” That’s the bit. I think we hit something there, where he loved what he was doing.

Payman L: Yeah, it’s quite interesting, isn’t it? The fun element.

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Payman L: Yeah? Do you actively enjoy-

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Payman L: I know you do. But do you make it fun for everyone else?

Druh Shah: Absolutely.

Payman L: Go on.

Druh Shah: We always make it fun and energetic for people. We make it fun and energetic from a viewpoint of first, “Do you all align to the vision?” Every person we’ve hired said, “There’s no pay for six months, will you come and work for us?” It’s a joke. But it’s to understand they’re aligned to the vision, the values, and what we stand for. That, in itself, is fun. They’re intrinsically-driven. It’s autonomous. As soon as you intrinsically drive them, it’s fun. The second thing we tell them is, “Do what you want, how you want it. I don’t want to know about whether you report at 9:00, 10:00, 12:00, or 4:00. If you intrinsically drive there, you’ll know when to report and what jobs to do, when.” It’s autonomous. They love it.

Druh Shah: I never criticise mistakes. I love to positively tell people, “You’re doing good job. Where can I help you to get better?” That makes it fun. Because they’re becoming competent. They feel that they’re building their confidence. Then, we have fun days out. These are not just fun days out, strategy meetings I call them. The other day we were all had a flight in the 1934 Tiger Moth aeroplane. That was our fun day. But it’s these jokes, these ability to do things, we’d like to do more, I’m not going to deny that. We’re just not there yet. But these are the elements that start bringing in the fun bits. Obviously, we all have a laugh with each other. You can take the piss out of them and I say, “They call me an Ewok, from Star Wars.” And I say, “Fine.” But we have a laugh. Ultimately, if you can’t laugh at yourself, you can’t laugh at anyone else.

Payman L: Take us back to, you told us about that dark day when your dad sent that text about the finance running dry when you were a student. But, and it’s easy to look at Tubules now and think everything’s beautiful. But take us back to your darkest day in Tubules land.

Druh Shah: It’s a whole talk I did last year, the Director’s Day. The darkest day. There’s loads of dark days. Listen, you just find the torch. But last year, in August, Tubules was five days from shutting down. Five days. My wife and kid were back in Kenya when this was happening. I was flying home to pick them up and I was at Dubai airport. If you know Dubai airport, it’s big. I had an eight hour stopover. I paced that airport, cold sweat, because I put my identity, myself on the line for this. I was Tubules. Without it, who was I?

Druh Shah: It was the fact that I’d lost sleep, I’d done everything. “What the hell do I do?” Probably was the worst, darkest day, for various reasons that had happened. But he was almost saying, “Right, it’s going to go.” You’d go home and you fly home and your family and your kid sees you after a few months. Beyond your smile, lies this absolute danger like, “What the hell? We’re gone.” But you know what worried me more, wasn’t me. What worried me most was the fact that if that goes, our team, who rely on me, who believe in me and my vision, are going to go. Tubulites, who use this to inspire themselves, to grow themselves, is going to go. It’s about others.

Druh Shah: That day was very dark. It was, I had no answers. I didn’t know what to do. I think I’ll face that again and again, possibly. But now I know how to deal with it. I was in Salvo, where the foundation school is being built on the edge of a national park. I got to the national park, and you go to this waterfall, and it’s tremendous waters. Absolutely choppy waters, but around it is just peace. There’s no mobile reception, either. I sat there and I had no answers and I just sat there on this rocks and there’s a picture of me, my brother was taken. I just sat there with this water flowing. The one thing I realised, these rocks, they were on messy, choppy waters, but the water was finding its way. I thought, “It’s choppy waters, we’ll find a way.” Flew back home, and I was set one evening and I was just drinking coffee at home, 11:00 at night when I have my coffee.

Druh Shah: I set there and thinking, “Do you know what? I accept that it’s gone.” I literally said, “It’s gone.” I thought, “It doesn’t matter if it’s gone, because the Tubules might have gone, but my values, what I stand for, what I do, hasn’t gone. My purpose isn’t gone.” Tubules hasn’t gone, it’s just a physical representation of it that’s gone. I looked around, I said, “You know what, whether I pass or fail, I’ve fought a valiant battle with true honesty.” Because I did that, I can say I fought the battle. So if it’s gone, I didn’t do it, I was proud of myself. Because of that, my family would think I’m a superhero, and they’d still love me.

Druh Shah: The important things in my life, and I was grateful. I remembered everything I was grateful for. On that darkest day, I remembered whether I pass or fail doesn’t matter because my values, my purpose, my honesty, and my family, the important things remain around me. That was will never go. Those are dark days when they go. The funny thing is, I felt a peace inside me like this burden was lifted off me. Because I suddenly realised, “Those things will always be there.” Suddenly I realised, “Bloody hell, I’ve surpassed a barrier now.” I’ve never lost Tubules. I’ll never lose it. Because it’s in me. I’ll only lose it when I go away, in a coffin some point.

Druh Shah: That gave me the confidence to do things, which I never thought I could do. The company just started rising and rising. I wrote a book amidst all this on the intelligent PDP, which went on Amazon. I wrote that book in three weeks, while I went through this crap. That book.

Payman L: What’s a PDP?

Druh Shah: The Personal Development Plans that we need for the new GDC regulations and all.

Payman L: All those videos you did, they’re so super useful, Man.

Payman L: Someone had to stand up and do that. You just did it.

Druh Shah: I did it. That all came on the back of that book because I had all the knowledge and I put it out. Someone said, “Druh, you should charge for these videos.” I said, “Here you go, Guys. Have it for free.” There were people, we fired it for free.

Payman L: He did something on the, what was it, not CQ, the data?

Druh Shah: GDPR.

Payman L: He did something on the GDPR. Someone needed to stand up and just say, and you did it.

Druh Shah: Yeah.

Payman L: But what you did for the personal development plan, definitely.

Druh Shah: Well, hopefully it helped. Well, people are still using it today, 12-18 months along. That’s how dark days come to light.

Prav Solanki: How did you come out of that hole? You had five days?

Druh Shah: Well, physically-

Prav Solanki: Well, what happened?

Druh Shah: We called suppliers. I mean, I was on the phone to everyone, “Help me out, I’m sweating.” Called suppliers, said, “Look, give us some time. Give us some time. It’ll happen.” I spoke to Tubulites and said, “Listen, Guys, I need your support.” Some of them came out there. Ultimately, then I started to develop. I said, “Listen, PDP, get this shoot-ed message out. If you go on WhatsApp groups in late August last year, I was shooting messages at 6:00 in the morning. “This is how you do PDP. Guys, Tubule’s answers, Tubules does it.” I put it out on Facebook groups, “Listen, this is your answer.” I was intense.

Druh Shah: I was on the phone with people saying, “Get on Tubules.” People were going, “Why?” “Because I need your help. But more importantly, you need me because of this PDP stuff.”

Druh Shah: The membership went up, people realised the value going up, suppliers gave us some breathing space, we just went went went went went. Ultimately, I just connected, oh my God, it was brilliant because ultimately you were doing it as a family, but it was brilliant because I was talking to people at every level, going, “Help me out here. Let’s do this here. Let’s do that.” I was probably on my knees there. But to knock me out would’ve taken a fiver. Suddenly, came the conference and the conference delivered a last pow to people, because they realised it’s not Druh pissing about, he’s serious.

Druh Shah: In October and November, people just went, “Whoa.” Somehow, that message going out all the time, vision, values, all that information, was getting people to believe in us. Like you say, somebody had to. Nobody else was doing it. I did that. I went around the whole country, well over 5000 miles, talking to people about this new CPD and how Tubules helps them. Went to practises, talking to practises, telling practise owners, “Introduce us to some more practise owners.” We started building that network, doing everything we could do. Yeah, lifeline.

Payman L: Druh, I mean, of all the projects in dentistry, yours probably is the most successful for the listeners, everyone’s a listener, I’m sort of holding out air quote. The amount of goodwill for your project, is probably the highest of any project that’s going. Does that not translate to giant sponsorship deals and-

Druh Shah: It could translate to anything. It could translate to someone buying me out. All these things.

Payman L: These struggles, I mean, there’s no point looking at me and Prav. But if I was Dental Direct to your Henry Schein, why wouldn’t I want that halo around? Have you gone to them and said, “Hey?”

Druh Shah: Ultimately, every single person will come to you when they see value in it for them. I could have the biggest community of millions and millions of users in the world, but if you don’t see value, you wouldn’t come there. For us, it was all about working out where our value lies and what it is. While sponsorship deals would come in, the second part was working out well, sponsors will come and say, “We have big checks for you.” big deals. But ultimately, it wasn’t just that, it was, “Can I deliver the value to the other person?” I believe in that straight away.

Druh Shah: We’ve had sponsors who’ve pretty much told us, “We’ll write a big check, but these are the videos and products we want.” I said, “Look, that does conflict with our values and what we stand for. I’m sorry. I’m not going to compromise on my principles at a level because it’s built on that principle.” That’s how we’ve built the user base. Now, I think there’s a very powerful recognition that the user base we’ve got, it isn’t just the quantity of numbers, it’s the quality.

Druh Shah: People don’t come to Tubules to do CPD, they come to Tubules because there’s a powerful learning resource there that’s going to inspire them to grow into better clinicians. Ultimately, that’s what the companies, that’s what people want. Because when you’re there, in a growth phase, now, just the way, after 10 years, you knocked on my door. I can tell you that door’s been knocking. It’s about how we work together with the right people. I’ve always said that. I don’t work with every sponsor. I don’t work with every company. I work with the right people to deliver the right value for them.

Druh Shah: My energy and focus, to a few people, is much more powerful than having my energy and focus to lots and lots of people. I go to these big shows that have 300 stands out there. It’s just an entity, a number. To me, that number has to be value, not an entity or number.

Prav Solanki: Druh, you said some interesting there, that you sort of pricked my ears up. That somebody may buy you out. In my mind, I don’t think you’d ever be for sale.

Druh Shah: Why not, why not?

Prav Solanki: Just let me just take this, qualify what I’m saying here. Is that, I don’t think Druh would ever sell his values.

Payman L: Doesn’t have to sell his values.

Prav Solanki: No, no, no, no, no. Let me just

Payman L: Sorry.

Prav Solanki: So somebody could come along and say, “I’ll give you an obscene amount of money. Just give me Tubules.” You wouldn’t do that, right? Without caveats, clauses, or would you? Is there a magic number where you’d say, “You know what? I’m going to let this go now, and I’m going to do what I want to do.” But what is that what you want to do?

Druh Shah: What I’m doing now.

Prav Solanki: Exactly.

Druh Shah: So David asked me this last year in this middle of this crisis. He said, “Druh, if somebody wrote down a check of 2.5 million, would you?” And that was the value of the company at that point. It’s probably more now. But he said, “Would you go?” I looked at him, I thought hard. I said, “No, my heart wouldn’t let me.”

Prav Solanki: No.

Druh Shah: I think there’s a bigger mission to achieve beyond this. Payman asked me this in Scotland some years ago. He said, “If you won the lottery, would you do what you’re doing now?” Actually, I would do what I’m doing now. I’m actually living the dream. By selling my dream, what am I going to live the nightmare? I don’t know. Ultimately, that’s what it is.

Payman L: Yeah, but this can translate to another scenario. I mean, you can do the foundation could take over, the wildlife photography bit could take over. I mean, you could-

Druh Shah: Ultimately, look, I’ve got to make dentinal Tubules, or the Tubules sort of approach into this big company that changes lives in the world. That’s the vision.

Payman L: That’s the vision.

Druh Shah: But I’ve got to make leaders within the companies. Like any company growing, you know, it’s finance hungry. It’s a monster. You have to release shareholdings. It’s a business level. This project is bigger than me. This project is bigger as a vision.

Payman L: I mean, you’re right. You might be forced to sell.

Druh Shah: If more than forced to sell, it might be I have to bring in more leaders in place, who take the vision. Bill Gates steps back. What’s his name, Satya Nadella, is he Google? Or Microsoft taking over. But you create leaders. Ultimately, I will then be stepping onto the role of then being crucial in the foundation. That’s my journey in life. We all have a journey. I don’t think I’d sell it. I’d think I’d still create leaders who would deliver that vision. There will be that element that goes on and on. Ultimately, that’s how I look at it.

Prav Solanki: Let’s say you were to leave this planet tomorrow for whatever circumstances. Would Tubules survive without you today? Or would it crash and burn?

Druh Shah: It would survive.

Prav Solanki: It would survive.

Druh Shah: It would survive.

Prav Solanki: You’re 100% confident that somebody or someone would take this cause over, drive it, and grow it the way you’d envisioned it?

Druh Shah: I think that they will take it over, they will drive it. They may drive it slightly differently because their vision may be slightly different to mine. That is fine. As long as they continue to help inspire and connect people-

Prav Solanki: Three core values.

Druh Shah: By giving them the motivation, the growth, and the thrive. Those three things, I think it’ll be okay. But that’s not for me to say. While I’m here, I do what my vision delivers. While I’m here, I convey the values. When people walk in, they say, “Those were values we loved.” I will step in. As long as we have people who understand the processes, and the vision, and people who can then say, “That vision was because of these processes,” things will carry on.

Druh Shah: In April this year, I started writing the Tubules manifesto, which is a write-down of every single detail of the company from the vision to each process to each job role and who does what for preparation, for the fact, that I could be hit by a bus anytime. That manifesto sits there to tell people, “Here’s your answers.”

Prav Solanki: If you were hit by a bus tomorrow, how would you want people to remember you?

Druh Shah: As a 5’4″ human being who did what he could. That’s it. I’m a normal person.

Prav Solanki: Your 18 month old, what would you like, “My dad was-”

Druh Shah: Hero to me, made me strong, taught me how to fight battles in life, find my way, and achieve my dreams.

Prav Solanki: Beautiful, beautiful.

Druh Shah: That’s it. Ultimately, we’re all 5’4″ human beings. Well, no, some of us taller. Relatively, all humans doing our job every day. None of us are special. We’ve just got to make it special for all of us, together. That’s it.

Payman L: I think we should leave it right there. We should leave it right there. Thank you so much.

Prav Solanki: Thank you, Druh.

Druh Shah: Awesome, thank you so much.

Payman L: Thank you.

Outro Voice: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, Guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. Just a huge thank you, both from me and Pay, for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman L: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: Don’t forget our six-star rating.

Transcript

Anup Ladva:
The worst type of investment you can have is buy something that you don’t use. Start that gym membership I bought.

Intro Voice:
This is dental leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry, your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman L:
I guess today is someone I’ve known for coming on to 10 years now, I think, a general dentist, a teacher, someone who’s set up several practises and in dentistry one of the people who I consider as one of the good guys. Doctor Anup Ladva. Good to have you on here.

Anup Ladva:
Hi. Thanks for having us.

Payman L:
Prav I don’t think you’ve met before, have you?

Prav Solanki:
We haven’t. No. No. We haven’t met before.

Anup Ladva:
No, I’ve heard a lot about Prav but we’ve never met.

Payman L:
Anud, maybe just start off by telling us about your early life. I mean, where were you born? How did you grow up? How was your childhood like?

Anup Ladva:
So I was born in North London, Palmers Green. I’ve got a brother and my mom and dad, we’ve got big family. So we were all together in a Palmers Green. So we went to comprehensive school, studied hard. To be honest I used to do a lot of things that was not what we would expect to do for our kids. We used to play the game back then.

Payman L:
Like what?

Prav Solanki:
What does that mean?

Anup Ladva:
What does that mean? It means not do the good boy stuff is like go out… naughty sometimes, miss school sometimes, be havoc in school.

Payman L:
And yet you were getting the grades?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. That was the problem, to be honest, that that was the problem. I was getting the grades and I think I had this opportunity where I was reading and I was able to retain information and very strategically, I think, at the point.

Prav Solanki:
So you were naturally talented, gifted student. Would you say?

Anup Ladva:
No. I think talent is overrated. I think where we came from was hard work. But the thing is for me to achieve that, it just took less time than other people, this is what I felt. So my granny used to say to me, “You’re the only kid that I know that I’ve seen… And my granny used to live with us… Who sits in front of the TV, has the car…” She used to call it car racing, which was the Grand Prix. It was like every Sunday Grand Prix. And I’d have a book on my lap and that was how I would study and I’d do GCSC’s, A Levels and everything else that went with it. And I remember when I got my grades for my history, you do a mock or some sort of exam to say, this is what you’re going to do when you do your choices is the teacher just thought I cheated, straight up cheated. She was like, no, you cheated. And I was like, call my dad. My dad was like, “What’s going on?”. And I didn’t, I just read the book the day before, literally. I read the textbook they gave me the day before, went in and did the exam. I didn’t do it amazingly bad. Passed the exam.

Prav Solanki:
I’d call that talent mate.

Anup Ladva:
I don’t know.

Payman L:
Do you remember when you first decided to be a dentist? What was it your parents to-

Anup Ladva:
No. It wasn’t. It was my mum, basically my mum passed away. She was the Staff Nurse at A&E, so she saw it all right? And I was unsure what I wanted to do and she was like, “Come in and speak to some of the doctors, come in to the Chase Farm A&E. And I went in and there was a lot of blood and a lot of craziness in the accident emergency and I was speaking to one of the doctors and his name was Dr. Chen, and this guy he was a really nice guy. And my mom had a few of those guys around her, they really respected her because they came from East Africa and some of them trained at the same places. So, and he sat down with me and said, “So what do you want to do?” And I said, “I’m not sure.” And I was very computer art orientated as well at the time.

Anup Ladva:
So I had that option and so I’d done my GCSE’s, I was coming up to doing them and I was unsure what I wanted to do. And he said to me, “You can do medicine or you can do dentistry.” “Dentistry, they get paid a lot more money”. That’s what he said to me. I remember you said they get paid a lot more money and in 10 years the life is less demanding. You don’t have to travel to different hospitals and get moved here and there and I thought, I don’t want to do that.

Anup Ladva:
So yeah, let’s do dentistry. And what actually happened was when it came time and I did my A levels and we came time to apply to do dentistry, I applied for optometry and dentistry. I was like one of the only cats who did that. I did like two places for optometry. Obviously I go into those and then did three for dentistry and out of the three I got into two and one they were like, “No”. And it was, I think it was Guys & Kings at the time they were separate. So I’d go into Kings and I got into Birmingham.

Payman L:
And where did you end up?

Anup Ladva:
Ended up at Kings.

Payman L:
Kings.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah.

Payman L:
And then what were you like as a dental student? Were you also fun loving criminal?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. Big time. Big time, fun loving criminal. I don’t have a lot of like friends, you know they’re like 200 friends guys. I’m like the guy who has like five-

Prav Solanki:
Close friends.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, five friends and we turn up no matter what. And that was it was Mehul Patel. Mehul Patel was my clinical partner.

Prav Solanki:
Really?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, and he’s a phenomenal dentist now, but we used to be on clinic together and do crazy things. So Mehul was with me and dentistry don’t get me wrong the first three years was difficult. My first year I nearly dropped out just because I didn’t do biology-

Payman L:
Neither did I by the way.

Anup Ladva:
I did chemistry, physics, maths, further maths. I didn’t do biology. So I went in and the first year literally I was reading out of a dictionary because every word they were putting up I was like, “I have no idea. I have no idea. I have no idea.” And that was difficult. It was draining, for me from sitting in front of a TV, reading a book and getting an A, A* I was like suddenly this is the real world. And that’s why I said, talent is overrated. That’s when I realised-

Prav Solanki:
Graft.

Anup Ladva:
… that this is graft. Forget what everyone else is doing. I go up a thousand I got to graft.

Prav Solanki:
You grew up in a typical Asian family. Was there for that pressure to do medicine, dentistry? Sort of-

Anup Ladva:
No. So listen, this is what happened year one, I had to do some three-week… At King’s you had to do a three makeup biology course. So you go in and I’m like, “Yeah, I can do this.” Come out-

Prav Solanki:
Was it like a foundation course?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. A foundation. So I had to do that before we went into dentistry, week three I was broken. That was horrific for me. That was the worst university experience I’ve ever, ever come across. It was so bad. I had no idea what they’re talking about. Pathways-

Payman L:
I know exactly the feeling.

Anup Ladva:
I had no idea. I came home literally and I came home and I cried and my gran and my mum were in… I was in my gran’s room. My mom came and she was like, “Why are you crying?” And I was like, “This thing’s crazy. I don’t think I can do this.” And that’s when my mom and my gran, they sat me down. They were like, “Listen…” That’s when she told me that story. She said, “I never seen no one study like you. Whatever you apply yourself to, you can do it. But the thing is, you’re not applying yourself. You’re in this state of where you’re like, this is so difficult because you’ve had it easy because you are able to be in that position. Now it’s time to turn it up.” And then, so they obviously talked to my dad, so my dad comes home and he sits down with me and these are the things that I’ll never forget till I die. And that day he sat with me and he said to me, “You know, you can do whatever you want.

Anup Ladva:
No one’s making you do this. You chose to do this. So you can be a mechanic, you can go and be a computer guide, like engineer.” My dad was an architect by trade and he was into CAD/CAM back in the day in architectural world. So Autodesk and all that kind of stuff. And he says to me, “You could do whatever you like, but the thing is you can’t just do it for the sake of it. You’ve got to be the best as you can when you do it. So I don’t care what you do, I don’t care if you drop out, the choice is yours, but just do it to the best of your ability.”

Prav Solanki:
So you didn’t have that pressure at that time that you must do this.

Anup Ladva:
No. I think they didn’t-

Prav Solanki:
Your dad was quite supportive in that sense, in terms of…

Anup Ladva:
No. I didn’t have pressure. That was the, the difference. The pressure was like, I think my brother had more pressure than me from-

Payman L:
What did he end up doing?

Anup Ladva:
He did chemical engineering in UMIST and then went on and did some other bits. Now he’s into teaching and learning and he’s in a corporate that does big corporate teaching for big companies and he’s doing really well. But I think he had the pressure and I think they from him, they were like, they looked at me and they were like, “Well, he’s doing things different and he’s getting the grade. So maybe we just leave him the way he is.” And I think that worked for me. I learned a lot from that. Hopefully I’ll have that ability to do that with my children.

Payman L:
So then you qualified and how long did you associate before you thought about opening a practise?

Anup Ladva:
So I qualified. It didn’t get VT job, a DF job I went to… So my days you had to apply. I applied and I didn’t like the places when I actually went there. So three interviews I left before I had the interview.

Prav Solanki:
Oh, you just didn’t turn up?

Anup Ladva:
I went to the practise and they were like, “Hello. How are you doing?” And I was like, “Can I have a look around?” They were like, “Yeah, sure.” While you’re waiting for some places in London. So I’m close to here. I was in North London, so I was applying-

Prav Solanki:
Locally.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, locally. And I didn’t even like the practise. It was like I was under the stairs and it was like-

Payman L:
So you walked out?

Anup Ladva:
I just left. I just left. Just said to them-

Payman L:
How rude.

Anup Ladva:
This practise is not for me. No, I was honest. I didn’t study-

Payman L:
Honest is often rude.

Anup Ladva:
The problem is that’s me all over. My patients say that to me, “The most honest dentist I know. You just tell me exactly how it is good or bad.” That gets me into a lot of trouble along the way. But it also builds that reputation that “Listen, he’s going to tell you how it is he’s not going to mess around.” I left a few of the practises. I applied to 10 I think I’ve got six interviews, three I left and three I did and one of them I wanted and I didn’t get it. So then I went to Cuba, I went to Cuba for eight weeks.

Prav Solanki:
To a holiday party or-

Anup Ladva:
Just switch off and go and do whatever. A few of pals, a few of my friends who had jobs, they were coming back to jobs and I didn’t have one. So I went, I just took the summer, I went to Cuba and when I was in Cuba, my brother, the legend that he is was like, “I’ve got you four interviews. They’re in these places, which are not in London.”

Prav Solanki:
The chemical engineer.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. So my brother, who was at the time, he was doing some sales work and he was like, he could talk to people, he could communicate really well in the sales arena. And he was like, “I’ve got you four interviews. One’s in Scotland, one’s in Birmingham somewhere, one’s in Colchester and this.” And then I came back and I was like I don’t know if I want to do this, I’m not sure. And he got me an interview with a place in Colchester, Essex and I went to it and it was a beautiful practise. Beautiful.

Prav Solanki:
Was the name of the practise?

Anup Ladva:
Is called Crawford lodge Dental practise. Beautiful practise. Really nice small NHS contract and the DF and it’s a good quality work.

Payman L:
What a legend your brother is.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. Legend.

Payman L:
Absolutely. So then, okay, was that VT?

Anup Ladva:
So, that was DF. Yeah. So that was DF and then I did a little stint before I started that DF, cause I’d been away, I came back and I stayed late because they had someone who had dropped out. So, that was essentially what happened. They had someone who didn’t pass their exams. So then the timeframes were going to be a little bit further away. So I went and did a stint in UCLA with Ed McLaren doing some aesthetic dentistry.

Payman L:
Ah, nice.

Anup Ladva:
And that just opened my eyes to the real… I thought if we’re going to do this-

Payman L:
Pascal Manua was there?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. So I was like, those were the golden days guys who wrote the books now. That was some of the privilege that I’ve had now is… And that is actual privilege is the guys that wrote the books were the people that taught us. Like in my year, me, Mes as you know they are the Kings, all the books. They were our tutors, our personal tutors. We had that. And then in the aesthetic arena is like being in those kinds of environments. You take on a lot of knowledge and you learn and also you realise how hard it is. Because them guys they work you hard.

Prav Solanki:
Who do you think had the biggest influence on you in dentistry? In terms of way… We spoke to a lot of people who say that it was their first boss or tutor or someone they ended up being mentored by. Was there anyone who had the biggest influence on the direction that you’ve taken today?

Anup Ladva:
The direction that the biggest influence direction. So in, there’s three arenas there we’re talking about, one is what gave me the opportunity to really think right. This is it. And there’s a guy called Brett Robinson at Kings and he was my personal tutor and anyone who knows Brett would be, if you go into the day and you’re like, today’s gonna be a tough day. He’ll stand on the table and be like, there is no such thing as a tough day. It’s only what we make of it. Come on, we can do this. Like, that was Brett. Right. But it was hard as nails, hard as nails and me and Mes spent a lot of time in his office getting either bollocked or getting told like, you know guys, you’re doing good. But he did clinical skills with us-

Payman L:
Who’s Mes? Mahul?

Anup Ladva:
Mahul Patel, sorry. So, and he sat down with me and he was like, “You can do this and you’re going to be exceptional.” It’s just that you have to work out the hand skills you’ve got like we were way ahead of our group in terms of the clinical side of things. And it was the other stuff that the all medicine, all surgery, the actual learning, like the being able to piece things together. We hadn’t worked that out because we were too busy messing around and doing other things and he did that and he’s the guy who influenced me because his hand skills were phenomenal and he was a big guy, six foot six…

Payman L:
Is he’s still there?

Anup Ladva:
He does. He teaches the hygiene therapy now. So, but he was an endodontist and he just had phenomenal clinical skills. And when we went through that process and we started getting good, that’s where we worked out, why he’d have these plasta teeth or styrofoam teeth made that were this big like foot by foot, like molar. And he’ll give us hand tools like carpentry tools and be like, “Prep it.” So we’re covered in this styrofoam with a mask on like glasses, like top, and he’ll be like, “All right, so now you could see what things are wrong, what is right, what things do we need to change?” And that’s what we used to do. We used to do a lot of that. And then, he was phenomenal. Then obviously after that it was my second boss actually. So I left the DF and I joined a practise, a really big practise.

Prav Solanki:
And did you leave the DF before time or-

Anup Ladva:
No. I did complete the DF and I did it with a guy Jason, who was my TPD and he’s still the TPD now and now I teach under Jason, we teach DF’s. And that’s a crazy like cycle, like he was my TPD and now I’m teaching under him.

Payman L:
Jason who?

Anup Ladva:
Jason Stokes in Ipswich Deanery.

Payman L:
Is he your second mentor?

Anup Ladva:
No. No. Jason was always a good person to have, like to be solidly put you on the right track. He’s such a nice guy and he was very, very tell you the way is. And I like that. That worked for me. That really worked for me at the time and it still does now. I like that. I take a lot of advice from Jason. He’s a nice guy. So there was a practise that I joined it was a big practise and that’s where I learned about the business of dentistry.

Prav Solanki:
And that practise was-

Anup Ladva:
Howard and St John’s dental practise. Colin Brody.

Prav Solanki:
Okay. And was it him who taught you about business or just absorbing to see how the team was together? What was the biggest business lesson you took away from that practise?

Anup Ladva:
Is how to be efficient, how to be efficient. The practise was efficient, like coming from the DF practise, small contract. This was a huge contract. How to be efficient in or in the areas of your book, how to be efficient in the stock ordering, how to be efficient in staffing. We never had those kinds of issues and we all know that staffing is a big issue inside of healthcare. Especially when you get further away from London, you put an ad out you get five people rather than 50 you know those kinds of scenarios. And he had that and he taught me a lot.

Prav Solanki:
So what’s your biggest efficiency hack? Let’s talk from whether it’s clinical business, if you… lot of people out there who are wet behind the ears when it comes to business. Maybe 10 plus years ago from where you used to, you are today. What’s the biggest tip you can give somebody in terms of being more efficient in business for any aspect?

Anup Ladva:
Any aspect?

Payman L:
Any aspect.

Anup Ladva:
Any aspect is the key for, I think in dentistry that we see now, is everyone is… Even if they’ve got a little bit experience. They really want to be running because of the social media. Social media has a big impact on our mindset, our culture the way our kids… Every everything around us. But the thing with dentistry is it has a huge impact in our self confidence, our motivation, our belief and the thing is they want to run really before they can walk. So the biggest hack I’d have for them is get your fundamentals locked down. Get them locked down in a way that you’re not changing six variables.

Anup Ladva:
If you’re doing a procedure and you’re going to extend or get better or get quicker at what you’re doing, choose two variables, work on them master them, then add the next one, then add the other one. We see these guys suddenly, they never use DAN, they never done really complex intricate type of layering and they’re doing this all at the same time. Then it’s a recipe for failure. When you change too many variables, and this the same throughout the industry. You want to make your reception team more efficient, choose two variables, implement them work and get them nailed down. Then move on.

Prav Solanki:
Earn your stripes, do the graft and focus on one or two things at a time.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. So when I opened my first practise and as a squat and as a video shop, we went in, converted it, my dad sat down with me and we’re obviously from a background where we’re business smart. It’s just, I don’t know how we described that, but that’s what our culture is, it’s in our blood. And so he sat down and we said everything top-down, if you can’t do it yourself, don’t expect someone else to do it better than you. It can’t happen. Everything top-down, cleaning. We grafted and my lovely wife and we got married in that process and she helped me like changing floors and doing things. Because it was a single surgery, we added another surgery and we would like… and we were growing and we were trying to work out like how to do it. But everything, cashing up, the works. Now I look at the books, I know that if there’s from the day’s cash up, I know if we’re two or three hundred pound down, something’s wrong. Something’s right.

Payman L:
Because you know the business inside out.

Anup Ladva:
Because I know the business and I’ve done it, I’ve done it. And they’re like, “Oh I’ve got this cashing up issue.” Like you know, sometimes you have that and you know they’re spending 25 minutes and then they know they don’t want to call me, but you get the call and you’re like, “Okay, I’ll do it on the way out. Let’s go.” So we go sit down and you just look at it and you’re like, “This is where it is. Someone’s not tilled this into this PDQ or the PDQ numbers out or something.” And to this day because of that, I come across, I do a lot of consultancy for practises and trying to make them more efficient. Marketing is difficult. I know Prav is a genius at that. That’s my most difficult thing is marking the practise.

Anup Ladva:
And I think social media plays a big role in that. Now, my wife’s been telling me that for five years and now I know that she was right. But we’re lucky that we’ve never been in a position where we’ve had people steal money from us, you know, and I come across loads of practises they’re like-

Prav Solanki:
That happens a lot.

Anup Ladva:
It’s like I see them crazy ways as well. They take money, then they hit a refund in the system and then that, and I’m like, you’re by the end of the day, don’t you, who’s looking at what refunds were hit on the day and they’re like, no one. And I am like well that’s the issue.

Payman L:
I get exactly what you’re saying about understanding every part of the business and what that’s done for you. But there are other ways of doing it.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. Of course.

Payman L:
Some of them include taking on partners. Which I know you’ve done as well.

Anup Ladva:
Yes we have.

Payman L:
So was that first practise that you mentioned, not the one that you’re in a partnership?

Anup Ladva:
No. No. No. We bought partnerships after that when we had a bit of money and then we went in and we did some bits for-

Payman L:
And the first one was I was a squat. Tell me this was the biggest lesson you can say to someone who’s about to open a squat with regards to how did you go from no one knowing about you to one patient a day coming in, what do you do? And what’s the biggest things to look out for and some of the hacks some of the things that you learnt along the way so that someone else doesn’t have to make the same mistakes as you?

Anup Ladva:
So when we did this, we did this manually. Right now it’s a digital game. So you got to have a really good digital presence now. But it doesn’t mean you forget about the manual. We did it old school, we had balloons every day. We’d blow up a hundred balloons and we’re in a Tesco’s car park, so there’s lots of people, kids or families coming and we’d give, you know, a logo name we’d give kids, give fam, give mums, even if it was a mum and we knew that, you know, they had kids or they’d be like, have you got children here? Take some balloons for them, you know, constant. We were doing it every day.

Prav Solanki:
Any messages on those balloons or-

Anup Ladva:
We’ll be like, come give us a call. One of the biggest messages we used at the time was while you do your shopping list, let’s have a look at your family’s teeth. It was like, the dad can come with the kids and the mom can do the shopping and then they could swap over and-

Prav Solanki:
Real old school guerrilla marketing.

Anup Ladva:
Guerrilla marketing.

Prav Solanki:
You were going out there.

Anup Ladva:
Tactics.

Prav Solanki:
Literally.

Anup Ladva:
Literally.

Payman L:
Did you try and partner with Tesco’s?

Anup Ladva:
We had trouble with Tesco’s loads of times. No they didn’t want us to do it, but we did it anyway. That was the part of guerrilla marketing. Every car that was in the car park would get a voucher. I think it was a voucher for something off whitening. I think it was something like that-

Prav Solanki:
Under the windscreen wiper.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. Yeah. It was that kind of thing.

Payman L:
Then a few patients start coming in, I guess.

Anup Ladva:
No. We’re a mixed practise. So we had a small NHS contract, so we made it aware in the press we took a press advert, full page, new practise opening, NHS space available. That was it really done is we had a table. So while they were building the practise in the Tesco car park, we had a table outside and a lovely lady who still works for me now, she sat outside and we registered patients and we had a queue that they’ve never seen before.

Prav Solanki:
Prelaunch.

Anup Ladva:
Prelaunch. NHS is going to do that. It was going to do that back in the day. There was no other NHS when we won the contract, but then from there, that’s when we realised that we’re onto something. There’s 3000 homes here. This is their Tesco. Let’s go at this guerrilla style. And that was the… The aim was to keep me busy two and a half days a week, like mornings and then go to the other practise mornings go to the other practise mornings and from there, suddenly within two months we were like, I can’t work at the other place. I need to be here.

Prav Solanki:
Chock-a-block.

Anup Ladva:
It’s just… and it grew.

Prav Solanki:
Could you talk about about the other practises, these were the ones you already had-

Anup Ladva:
There was associates. I was still an associate at the other place at Howard and St John’s, Colin Brody, and he’s the one who sat down with me and said, “Listen, I know you’re going to leave, so why don’t we go and look at some places and I’ll help you set up.”

Prav Solanki:
So he became your first partner?

Anup Ladva:
No. He just became a person. He was like my mentor.

Payman L:
A mentor. What a lovely guy.

Anup Ladva:
Top bloke, top bloke. No one would take that time, effort and energy. And don’t get me wrong, we paid him some money for it. That was part of the deal was like, “Look I help you every step of the way. Just give me like little consultancy fee.” And that’s when my eyes opened to consultancy. Because then you have another aspect of what I’d… so I took that, we did it, we paid him his consultancy fee. For me it was a no brainer. And then that’s where we’ve started our consultancy business was taking that and developing that mentality in that thought process into… that was 12 years ago. So from there we’ve kind of gone along the way.

Prav Solanki:
What’s a chronological order of things that happened next, you opened your practise, launch day, boom in, left your associate job. And then how many more practises did you-

Anup Ladva:
So from there then we went and got a partnership.

Prav Solanki:
What does getting a partnership mean?

Anup Ladva:
So bought into a practise in Kent with the aim was to increase the turnover and sell it. Went well exited early, earlier than I would like.

Prav Solanki:
Just rewind that a little bit. How does that take place? How do you find a practise-

Anup Ladva:
You go on the hunt.

Prav Solanki:
… that wants you to buy in, do you go and hand select? Do you think that’s a good practise.

Anup Ladva:
Well it was friends of friends, so friends of friends… Met… Guy was like struggling. So as it is a good value prop, value is difficult in dentistry, especially in this market.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah at the moment.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. And so at the time it was a good value proposition and there was scope and I knew because as grown minds so recently I knew the things we could do and marking is really throwing money at the wall unless you know what you’re doing. And a lot of people do do that. They throw money at the wall and that’s what this guy was doing. There’s no way of monitoring what you’re spending money on. Are you making any money back from it? Your book, how it’s run, that, why do we not have like basic things like slots, dedicated to private. It was a no brainer.

Prav Solanki:
It’s a partnership. Just to sort rewinding that number one in Kent, what percentage did you buy? Did you have an independent valuation done exchange money and then-

Anup Ladva:
No independent bank valuation. Just quick, done, easy. It was dead easy.

Prav Solanki:
Scrap of paper. What percentage did you buy?

Anup Ladva:
50%.

Payman L:
You trusted him because he was a friend of a friend.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. And there was a lot of trust both ways and that was actually the Kent one was okay. Then there was like other-

Prav Solanki:
You exited from that, right?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah.

Prav Solanki:
Did okay?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. The exit was okay on all of them. It was okay. It’s just that I think… the thing is in dentistry is I think having now… is buying a partnership is good, but you have to know the people and that’s the difference. A lot of people now are saying to me, “Why don’t you do this again, set up another one.” I would do it, but I couldn’t do it by myself. One, because I’ve got family, kids and everything else and time. I’ve learned a lot at this last three, four years. Payman will tell you in my life we’ll get there. No doubt.

Anup Ladva:
But the partnerships were good. They gave me what we wanted to do. The downsides of them was being in partnership with people that I didn’t know as well as what I would want to know because what happens is your dynamic is different. It’s their baby, you’re buying into it and they think they know best. Even when you can see from an outside strategy that maybe, you need to change things here, we need to drive it a little bit this way and even the little bit was difficult to get. Then it’s like-

Payman L:
I’m not sure it’s to do with whether you know the person or not. Of course it helps to know someone, but you can be in a partnership with someone you know really well and just not share the same risk profile.

Anup Ladva:
Risk is… That’s the big thing.

Payman L:
For me in partnership, that’s the key point.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, I think you’re right.

Payman L:
If you have the same risk profile and be two totally different people. It’s very important that you are different people. Otherwise, why would you bother getting the partnership?

Anup Ladva:
Sure.

Payman L:
You need two different skillset.

Anup Ladva:
Agreed, but for me, I’m talking 10 years ago, my risk profile then was so different to it is now-

Payman L:
And he was older, was he?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman L:
That’s where his risk was right now.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, so if you actually think about in that mechanic it’s very true, is like my risk profile now is so different to what it was then. I’ve got kids-

Prav Solanki:
Different life goals, things change.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. And my life goals are hugely different compared to three years ago.

Prav Solanki:
Of course. Just as a summary, it sounds like you’ve had some partnerships that have been a booming success.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah.

Prav Solanki:
Some that haven’t worked. What advice would you give somebody who’s thinking of going into partnership? I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening now having conversations. I myself have been involved in partnerships. What advice would you give to someone who is thinking of going into partnership in a joint venture, buying into a practise, what are the things to look out for as what you would consider to be the recipe for a successful partnership?

Anup Ladva:
Okay, so one is trust. You have to trust the person, they have to trust you.

Prav Solanki:
Mm-hmm.

Anup Ladva:
Two is having the ability to be able to take ownership for certain parts because realistically what we find in partnerships is, and now still, is they want to do the same thing and they both want input into the same thing and there’s just not time, effort, energy, efficiency. So your efficiency goes out the window when you start doing that. So being able to take ownership for certain parts of the business. And not being involved in that part because you know that you trust that person and they have ownership for it.

Prav Solanki:
They’ve got your back.

Anup Ladva:
They’ve got your back. Whether you’re going to be doing that or not, that’s huge. And the third thing is being able to be lean. A lot of people still go into this, I really don’t want to say it, but they come in with loaded pockets, they’re setting up a squat, they’ve got loaded pockets and lean is not in business is not a thing I’ve come across. It’s just taking a loan, signing a check or paying for it. Because we’ve got the-

Payman L:
What would you say is the advantage of being lean?

Anup Ladva:
It means you show profit early. The leaner you are, the three years in, you’re already showing some black. That’s a good thing.

Payman L:
Of course that but have you read that lean startup?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah.

Payman L:
Great book. But for me, the fact that you can try things in a small way-

Anup Ladva:
Well the benefit of being lean, like Seth Rogan talks about. So what we’re talking about is benefit of being lean is your exposure to your thought making process is minimised. So you have this idea and you want to do it, but you do it as lean as you can, as long as you can measure it, then go all in. Then be like, “Okay, we’ll sell three extra surgeries, we’ll set up four extra surgeries,” you know, no problem. We’ve got the space, but why go in and fit seven rooms when you’re a squat.

Prav Solanki:
If it doesn’t work ditch it, right?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah.

Payman L:
Prav, your probably in more-

Anup Ladva:
Your most probably the master of this.

Payman L:
He’s in more partnerships than I’ve had breakfast. I mean, he’s in a lot of different partnerships. What would you say is your top tip?

Prav Solanki:
I think my top tip for anyone going into a partnership is have the same personal values as that person. And that’s something you learn over time. And so for me, I’m a family orientated individual. You have family first, above and beyond anyone else, anything else. Risk profiles, those being different. I’m happy with that. Trust, absolutely. You need to know that you can implicitly trust that person. And the other thing is that when you go into a partnership with somebody for me, I want that partner to be bloody awesome at what they do. Be the best of the best at what they do.

Prav Solanki:
So take one partnership for example, the IAS Academy. I know without question that Tif Qureshi is the world’s best teacher and educator when it comes to educating GDPs about minimally invasive ortho restorative dentistry. Knowing that gives me so much confidence that I can market him and the rest of the team who he’s mentored, people like professor Ross Hobson who’s come on board as a master of his own game. And our other mentors, we know they are exceptional. Knowing that I think is key really that people are really good. But, Anud, similar to what you said, unless you can blindly trust the people you’re in business with.

Anup Ladva:
Has to be blind.

Prav Solanki:
It’ll fall to pieces.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah.

Payman L:
The one thing I didn’t appreciate, I’m in a partnership, was one thing you were telling me about in your marketing business, you’re the sole owner and sometimes that’s lonely. The loneliness-

Anup Ladva:
No, it is. I’m there now, right?

Payman L:
Yeah, you’re there now.

Anup Ladva:
And this is 10 years in and I-

Payman L:
You don’t realise this when you’re in a partnership, you don’t really appreciate, you don’t internalise how that feels because you have all this-

Anup Ladva:
And you know the thing is the buck stops with me right? So like everything stops with me. And in our staff meetings we’re like, “Okay, we’re having a quiet month or is quieter because I’ve got two dentists on holiday. I got this happening now”. My wage bill is still £26,000.

Prav Solanki:
You’re isolated though, right?

Anup Ladva:
It’s got to be done. And the thing is the only person who gives me that support and strength is my family, is my wife. And she’s been a legend like along the way she’s been a legend. We went to Sydney. This is where I got the extra study or the bug to really work hard. We’re a qualified practise set up, Tesco’s kicked me out in 2008 of the building we were in, because they wanted it, it was joined to the store. They’re like, “We’re going to build you a unit over. There you go move to that building.” I was like, “Okay, yeah that can be done”. “By the way. You got three months to do it.” So start the NHS paperwork. Think about say, “Tesco, come on golden handshake, let’s work something out.” We managed to do that. Obviously negotiate. But the difficulty was is stress man, like huge stress. Like moving the whole business. And that was the point. That’s when we fitted one surgery and another surgery and we kept the other four rooms and be like, we’ll work out as we go. Let’s just get it open and get in there. But the problem was no-one wanting to lend me no money at the time, that is the 2008 recession. My bank was like, “What? What do you mean you want… What?” We have a small NHS contract. “No, no thanks. We can’t give you no money.”

Payman L:
So how did you fund it?

Anup Ladva:
Self funded it, begged, borrowed and stole.

Payman L:
And it’s beautiful. I guess you saw it as an opportunity to rebrand and make it beautiful.

Anup Ladva:
Yes it was. And that was the hardest and lowest things like of my career in that period was though that was hard work.

Prav Solanki:
What was the hardest thing about it… What was the lowest moment during that time mean? I’m assuming in the chronology of things. You were married at the time?

Anup Ladva:
Yes. It was man hours. The true-

Prav Solanki:
Any kids?

Anup Ladva:
No, not at that stage.

Prav Solanki:
So, it was just you and the wife.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. And it was actual man hours. Like every time we’ll come home. My wife would sit down with me, she would help me some bits and then like going in doing man hours doing dentistry as well. Trying to liaise with contractors while I’m working in this site. Like literally it was a stone’s throw away but I have to leave there, go there and that’s where my patients just, you worked out whether they loved you or they hated you.

Anup Ladva:
Because my patients were like, it’s fine, no problem. Like I’ll sit in the chair, you can go over there and put builder’s hat on and go like… They’ll come in the surgery on the back of the chair, it would be a builder’s hat and a vest like HiVis vest in case I had to go. There’ll be like, “Okay, I get it.” Like you know they bought into the picture and I was lucky there. They’re still with me. Those patients, the ones that’s went through that are still my patients. They’re not going… I wouldn’t let them go anywhere. Let’s put it like that because they’re like family.

Prav Solanki:
They wouldn’t want to go anywhere else.

Anup Ladva:
No, no, no, they’re like family, those ones are like family.

Prav Solanki:
You know when you hit that point in business, and I think we’ve all been there it’s rock bottom, you go home, you’re in tears. You have conversations with your partner, your wife whoever it is at the time. And sometimes there’s a conflict. So I know myself, when I’d been working so hard, my wife just wants Prav. She doesn’t want business. She doesn’t want that. And you hit those really, really low points. Did you ever have that conflict between you and your wife and, and the work life balance because in a partnership your wife’s going to help you with your business. No question. But she wants Anud, right?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, of course. That was the worst bits was that, she wanted just to spend time with me and we still see that now. Even now, we’re set up we’re doing what we want, which is why I like my game plans changed over the last five years or three years. Like, literally since… we’ve been in this process where after my mum passed away and opened my eyes to what really is happening and we’re at that age now like look, a good friend of mine like mentoring my digital world. Like what happened last two weeks go-

Payman L:
It made you.

Prav Solanki:
And it made you.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah it’s like, no one’s winning this race. That’s the one thing I take away from this process. And I went through that mindset journey and I’m not shy, I went and did the Tony Robbins and sat down with… and really worked on ourselves and myself and what was important to me and my interactions are better now.

Prav Solanki:
What is important to you?

Anup Ladva:
What’s important to me is time, time with family, time with people you love and you care about because tomorrow they might not be there. Everything else will still be there, right? Sure. When I go, everything else is going to be there.

Payman L:
Did your mum pass away suddenly?

Anup Ladva:
She was ill for a while and then… So let’s just take a step back. So I open the practise grafted, built it, working really well. Vanessa was a legend in that process. She really helped me out and kept me straight. And yeah we did have conflict but it worked well. And then two years ago now, mum got ill. And so I found myself and I’ve got two kids and I found myself going backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards to the hospital. And spending time with her and Vanessa encouraged me to do that. Like she was like, “It is something you’ve got to do”, and it wasn’t about something you’ve got to do because you got to do it is because I had a lot of guilt that I wasn’t able to spend time and I never knew what that felt like. For me, I never knew what guilt was. Like my default was irritation angry. Like that was my pathway.

Anup Ladva:
So like most Indian people, most Indian men especially, and so I started to look at what I was feeling and it was that. It was like, and so it wasn’t because of that, she just said to me, “You’ve got to do this. Like I know it’s difficult for you. Go and do it and spend as much time as you need with them.” So I was there. My mum and dad used to call me the midnight stalker because I’d rock up at when the kids go to sleep I’ll go there, turn up. Because I knew my mum would be awake. She wasn’t well she did some time in hospital and then she passed away.

Anup Ladva:
And those last few weeks, moments me and my mum had fabulous and amazing conversations and that’s when I worked out like no one’s winning this race man. We’re all in it together.

Prav Solanki:
What was the biggest lesson that you took away from your mum? When someone passes away, the only thing we have left is our memories, right?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah.

Prav Solanki:
What’s the best memory you’ve got? And what is the biggest lesson you took away from your mum that you can pass on to your children?

Anup Ladva:
Is the thing is this, is everyone that we meet is going through a battle that we know nothing about. So be kind, dead simple. And the reason that that’s important is, I’d see her and I’d be upset about something and she could tell from our time, we were spending so much time together, she was like, “Why are you being sad or upset about something that you have no control over? The only person who’s making upset is you. The other people don’t give a damn. They’re doing their thing. So who’s it affecting? Who does it actually affect? Affects me because you’re here with me. When you see Vanessa it’s going to affect her because you’re going to be with her, when your kids see that it’s going to infect-”

Anup Ladva:
So realistically, the interactions that are closest to me that I care and value the most about, other people who are going to suffer because of some other interaction I had with someone that has put me in that state. That doesn’t mean you can always be good, but I’m trying. I’m trying to always self-correct. But I’m learning that and that’s what’s changed three years and that was the hardest thing, man. For me I was broken like for me, I was so broken.

Payman L:
Does your dad live with you?

Anup Ladva:
My dad. No. He lives at home. He’s a stubborn old mule, isn’t he? The best of the best. My dad showed me his true colours in these last two years. Man, he can cook. My dad never used to be able to cook, you know, he used to do nothing. Now with mum gone, my old man he can cook. He can everything. I’ll go to his house he makes me food now. He’s like, listen, let me put some kitchen heat on. I’m like, What? You got this. The other day you made me some puff pastries with some vegetable mix inside. I was like, it’s blows my mind he’s, serious. So yeah, my best friend is my dad. He always has been always will be and that’s the way it is.

Anup Ladva:
So you know it’s been good. But along the way like you’re talking about partnerships, it’s like that’s when I learned like partnerships is important and you got to choose the right things. We have a tech company and we’re in a partnership. Obviously we’ve taken funding, we have a board now that’s something totally new to me. Totally new to me. Is like answering to a board.

Payman L:
Go on, tell us a little about that.

Anup Ladva:
Never been in that scenario… Never been in that place like I’m the boss or me and this person is the boss, now you think you’re the boss. And that’s basically that my end goal to working out ways like to deal with a board is you think you’re the boss, but you’re not.

Payman L:
Yeah, me and Prav were talking about this, this division.

Anup Ladva:
Because mate… and it’s like this believable.

Payman L:
Just before you get into that, I’ve been at your practise and I’ve seen the way you interact with your team and I mean love is a big word, but they kind of love you. I feel like they like you a lot-

Anup Ladva:
Know why? Because over the last five years, it’s about honesty.

Payman L:
Yeah, but how’d you draw that balance between being their friend and being their boss? Is it better to be feared or loved or whatever? It seems like you’ve got both sides.

Anup Ladva:
So the fear comes from this is from if they have to sit down and sit in the room with me, they know there’s an issue. That’s number one.

Prav Solanki:
They’ve gone too far.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s it. Okay, there’s X amount of steps before it gets to that. But if they have to come and sit with me and we’ve got to have a direct conversation about why this is happening this way repeatedly.

Payman L:
Does it come naturally to you? It comes naturally to me to act that way with my kids. They love me. I love them. Then if they go past a certain line, I stamp down and-

Prav Solanki:
I cannot imagine you doing that Pay.

Payman L:
I think with adults… What if they do something wrong. Like if your kid doesn’t say thank you to a waiter or something, I’m not going to let that go.

Payman L:
But with adults I find it a little bit harder. I know you don’t.

Anup Ladva:
No, I don’t. I genuinely don’t because like that interaction is important, especially when it comes to patients it comes to each other. And when you’re dealing with 22 staff, 30 staff and there’s women or young, not actually women, youngsters involved, there’s a lot of that which we have to try and control. And thank God I don’t have to do it. We built a mechanism where my team are able to work on that generically with each other in some stern words, some good words, you know that process. But the thing is the other side of that is if it goes wrong, they sit down and they have to say to me, “No one wants to do that really.”

Anup Ladva:
But the other thing is if they do something amazing, I get told they did something amazing, I’ll stop and go and tell them that was amazing. And I’m really like that. That exceeded my expectation.

Prav Solanki:
That is better than any pay rise buddy. That is so-

Anup Ladva:
You know more than me.

Prav Solanki:
I think from my perspective, one of the things I’ve learned and, and look only over the last 18 months to two years. Is that all your team want, touch him on the shoulder and say, “Do you know what? You smashed it. Well done.”

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. We came in to work the other week and I get caught I’m pulling up in the car park and they’re like, “We’ve got flood.” And I’m like that does not sound good. So I’m like, I’m coming upstairs. I get upstairs and I can just hear water shh. Someone’s hit the stopcock and switched off. Well done. Good thinking. But they have rolled up their trousers up to their knees. They’ve got no shoes on rolled up to there and they are just soaking up water. Anything they can they’ve gone to the dry cleaners, got like duvets. The old duvets that people don’t collect, they’ve gone and got them. They’re throwing them down. Mate that day. I was proud of them. “I was like, you all crushed it. You crushed it at another level,” they really did. Because that could have been like a hundred grand of damage done. Headache here we go. Like back in the mix and we didn’t.

Prav Solanki:
Any other team may have just gone home and taken a day off. But they took ownership of that because of your leadership.

Anup Ladva:
And I was in there with them though don’t get me wrong. I was soaked head to toe. I was like, “Oh my God, this is it.” But the thing is, I think that’s the problem is a lot of other… My team call me the governor or the boss. They wouldn’t do that. It would be like, “Oh, can we just get someone to come and clean this?” By then you’re in that, the water’s affecting downstairs, not only upstairs. We might as well shut up shop. Then it is like, “Okay, shut, let’s close for the day, get someone in to deal with it. Like you have to do it with them 100%. You have to.

Payman L:
I totally agree with Prav that pay is probably nowhere near the top of what people want from work. But do you have a performance related bonus?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah and a bonus and an outing or whatever they do for Christmas.

Payman L:
I’m surprised at how few practises actually do, I mean when you come across back to-

Anup Ladva:
You know the thing is we have to… we’re in Essex like it’s not London. London is different. Ten per penny. You have 10 like even for dentist interview you get-

Payman L:
In any business you’d expect some element of-

Prav Solanki:
I think it revolves around… for the practises that I’m involved in, but also those that I work with they all do bonuses in different ways. Right? Some of them are structured, some of them are less structured. Some of them are like, “You went above and beyond, you cleaned up the flood. You know what we’re doing, we’re going out for dinner.” Or some of them are a bit more, “You stayed behind on the weekend. You know what, take Monday morning off.” Or “I’m going to treat you to lunch.” It doesn’t have to be huge. And then others are structured around things like turnover, monthly targets, Google reviews, Facebook reviews. It could be any little micro goals that they’re targeted around. And I think having those little incentives in place work really well. But I think what works better than anything else is having stuff in place that they’re not expected to be like customer service.

Payman L:
That it surprise and delights them.

Prav Solanki:
It’s a surprise for your team.

Payman L:
Give me an example of that then.

Prav Solanki:
So for example, a certain team member had gone above and beyond and what I mean is stayed behind Saturday and Sunday. And booked them a lovely meal out at the Hilton for him and his partner, totally unexpected. Didn’t even want it, but surprise and delight. Or just things like going out of the way and creating in a nice sort of having a bespoke birthday cake made for somebody with their own figurines or their own theme or something like that, rather than just nipping it into Marks and Spencer’s and getting one. Just tiny little things like that I think help people emotionally connect to your cause and it’s the same or marketing as well, or customer onboarding.

Payman L:
Yeah. I think he noticed that we were talking about it in a previous episode-

Anup Ladva:
This all comes to the emotional intelligence. And that’s possibly what I’m learning still along the way.

Payman L:
Expecting your team to be really, really go above and beyond for your customers. It means that you have to go above and beyond for your team to show them what that means. It’s a simple thing. We’ve been doing a little series from black box thinking of asking different guests about clinical mistakes. And the idea is, in medicine we try and hide them all the time as a profession because it’s so blame orientated and in that book it’s all about plane crashes and how blame is taken out of the equation. What can we all learn from the mistake? Are you happy to talk about your clinical errors?

Anup Ladva:
Sure man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman L:
What would you say?

Anup Ladva:
So in this process, is after we were in Sydney. This can come back to this. We were in Sydney and I was helping teach them, clean them, I was there on holiday the MCLinDent from Kings college, Prof Miller and his team were there and they started talking. We had went out for dinner and they were talking to my wife and it basically came to the light that I should do the MCLinDent and that’s how it happened. Prof was a good convincer to Vanessa. So I came back, did the MCLinDent and in this process I have to present cases, right? The big cases and so on this digital journey we are new into the game and we were like talking to labs and they’re like we can do digital. So one of my cases, big case, all of it ironed out, all the steps along the way. We know we’ve got to do, doing it final fit and so this patients come in for a beautiful smile and we go and we fit certain units, we’d work front backwards, you know the Cranham approach and we set the bite up incisor, gums, everything.

Anup Ladva:
And because you’re doing over stages, you don’t really see things the way that you would do as if you’re doing 10 unit veneer fit. Okay, because you see this, this. So at the end I take photos, videos, sit down with the patient and this is the week after I fitted it and I’m looking at him and I’m like, something’s out here. And I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, have I done everything correctly? Like my experience was not as, you know what it should be in that rehab kind of arena. I was doing big rehab cases but not like at this level. So I was like, what’s going on? And it turns out that the material thickness and the digital approach that the lab had used was hybridise some things and come back. And so rather than being able to adjust and have the correct thickness on certain units, I was getting different refraction in the work and it looked horrible. In my eyes, it looked horrible.

Prav Solanki:
What did the patient think?

Anup Ladva:
The patient was like, “Why do some of the teeth look different colours. Like straight up?” He said it to me and I was like, “Yeah, this is a problem.” Years worth of work end goal, occlusion’s beautiful? Everything’s beautiful.

Payman L:
Even though there were all the same shade? Because of the different thickness they’re coming out different colours.

Anup Ladva:
It was in the shade and it was the actual, the way that… so what happened was it still the layering right-

Payman L:
Had you cemented it in?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, it was cemented. And the beauty is now we don’t even cement what do we do? We are adhesively bond. Because we’re using porcelain. So back in the day cement, yeah, still get it off. No problem. Like end of the crown. But there, now I have to cut these off. And that was… But the thing is, is being honest and learning and I still used it as my case by the way, still used as my case still put it in and I just reflected on it.

Anup Ladva:
And that’s what you’re saying, black book sinking is looking at him and being like why did these things happen? If we had done this in a pure digital environment, monolithic CAD cam, we would have seen less of it. Because I could have tailored from the loo but when you add layering to that mix, the layering is out my hands. It’s out of the digital-

Payman L:
It’s another thing that can go wrong.

Anup Ladva:
There’s another play there. So there’s so much play in this arena, which is why now there is a few labs that do work really well in this and a few concepts that work really well. Skin concept, DSD, they’re all much of the same. But the differences is that when you use a workflow start to finish and the lab knows that workflow start to finish, they’re not going to play intermediary with it. And most labs will tell us, “Yeah, we work in indigenous environment,” so how do we get a fine… Look, how many times have we been in this situation in the same situation I was in? You do a beautiful work and it’s not exactly what you designed on the waxer like 110% not the same. It’s 90% the same.

Anup Ladva:
So what do we do? We become the convincer, right? We said to the patient “Oh, yeah, it’s lovely.” There’s a slight change there, but no one’s going to say that… that bit we had to change that because of… That’s what happens. It happens routinely in traditional dentistry because mimicking at that level is difficult. And it’s only a few labs that can do it, but with digital it’s a lot easier. As long as they’re workflow is there and they understand the dentistry, that convincing theory is going like, this is what we got planned, this is what we designed, this is the 3d flow and this is what we end up with.

Anup Ladva:
And that was horrific for me to cut off eight units on a patient that had spent so much time in the chair and go through and literally have to go through it. Meaning that, how much trauma is there to the teeth? How much trauma is there to the biological cost? The patient’s time, my time, like that was my biggest boo boo. I never done any… and obviously everyone’s done it dropping a screw, implant screw in a patient’s mouth that I’ve done that and luckily… that that was another one. So I’ve done that one. That’s my worst. Like I just went white, sat the patient up, told her what happened and said, look, we got to go to the hospital. Let’s go. I’ll come with you-

Payman L:
For an x-ray.

Anup Ladva:
For an x-ray. You’ve got to do it. I don’t know where it’s gone. It was a healing. It wasn’t even a screw. Did it? Went with it with her to the hospital. Two weeks later she comes and you know what she says to my patient? To my nurse. She goes, “I love coming to this practise.” And Melissa is like, “Why we just dropped a screw down your throat?” She was like, but you know what? He was 100% confident. He knew what he had done. He knew how to fix. He knew the steps we had to take. Like he wasn’t scared. He just said, right, we’re going on the way out. He told the girls at the desk, “Speak to Jessica. Sort out my day I’m going to A&E… He was 100% confident and that made me confident”. Like, “I’m the one who’s got the problem, but I was like, all right, he knows what he’s doing, let’s go.”

Anup Ladva:
We put steps in place for that, but correct that mistake. But you have to learn. I haven’t done any really big horrible things. I’ve had to fix a lot of big, horrible things. That’s what happens when you do a lot of teaching in your training practise and you see that, but that’s part and parcel.

Prav Solanki:
And the eight unit patient that you have to drill off and start all that. How did that patient take it? Similar sort of way? We’re still a fan of yours.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, he was. The thing is, that patient had come see me three years ago and I told him what was wrong. Like you’ve worn your teeth, there’s nothing as strong as your teeth. You have to do this, you have to do that. And he wasn’t happy. He didn’t want to do what we suggested, which is fine, no problem. Then he went away saw some other people came back. Was still seen routine checkups in the practise somewhere. Then it was his 60th birthday. So he was like, no, we’re going to do this. Like, and he came back to see us and when he came back to see us he was like… I told him, “This is what it is.” And he was like, “You know I’ve been to a few other places and they don’t seem to understand the things you’re telling me no one else has talked about. They’re just like, we put some veneers on and it’ll be all right and you’re talking to me about my bite, this is worn down. Why that’s and they weren’t even looking at my bottom teeth. They just wanted to give me veneers”, and I’m like, “Well unfortunately it’s not what we do. We get referred a lot of patients as well for this kind of work and this is it.”

Payman L:
And is that terrible thinking feeling in your stomach when you feel like you’ve let someone down. Even though none of us are trying to let people down, you do your best.

Anup Ladva:
Got to have a lot of trust.

Payman L:
You feel like you’ve betrayed someone’s trust, if something goes wrong like that.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, of course. It does. So you know that process does happen.

Payman L:
Again, you were honest, you were completely upfront about it and-

Anup Ladva:
Got to be. Got to be. Got to be.

Payman L:
Yeah.

Anup Ladva:
Got to be and in thing is in this day and age, I don’t think, especially all of my workflow is digital now, which is why we consult on how that… to make it work at different practises, but there’s no hiding. Because you can see it.

Prav Solanki:
It’s all there.

Anup Ladva:
You just show it to him on the screen and most of the time they get emailed it for the trails communicate. They’ve got it themselves. They’re like, “Oh that looks beautiful. I love that.” And then you know the smile design and all the process and then you was not the same as you can see it. There’s no hiding.

Payman L:
What are some of the things you see when you go consulting for the digital? I guess there are people who are really into it and understand a lot of it. And then there’s absolute beginners who’ve gone and bought a scanner.

Anup Ladva:
It’s isn’t… the scanner is never the issue. It doesn’t matter what system you buy it’s not actually the issue.

Payman L:
What’s your advice? If I want to get into digital dentistry in the lab, I’m not really there. I kind of understand some of the words. So what’s your advice?

Anup Ladva:
My advice would be is do you think you need to go and do some digital training in the digital world and get a diploma certificate in that? No. I think if you’re very worse versed in dentistry. Two is workflow. It’s all about workflow. It’s about making it work in your workflow, not the other way around. That’s the problem where a lot of these… Where we go and you know it’s a corporate even and they’ve bought a scanner for the practise and no-one is using it because it doesn’t… That particular unit it needs wires to plugin or it’s on a trolley and a cart and there’s three story surgery and the upstairs guy, he can’t get to it. So then what did they do? They just don’t use it.

Anup Ladva:
Workflow. It’s got fit in with your workflow. The practises workflow, not the other way around. You shouldn’t in this day and age, and how developed the digital systems are, we should need to change 180 on how we work to make the digital work for us. Should be the other way around. And whoever sells it to you, they just want to sell it to you.

Payman L:
Exactly. There is an area vacuum which you’re trying to fill, which is basically the onboarding side.

Anup Ladva:
The onboarding is huge, right? But even when you onboard, what do you onboard? You onboard clinicians. So, when I walk in the room. Am I going to be like, “Okay, get the TRIOS, get it. Can we have it connected here? Can we get it from the other room?” Hell no. I walk in the room up on my bum on the chair. Patients in let’s go. Yeah. We start talking to the patient. My most important person in the room. It’s not me. It’s the patient. So who did they actually onboard? They onboard me. I couldn’t give a damn about it. I’m going to use it. Yeah. I need to get trained in how to use it. What you need to onboard is the team and actually make it workable for the team. So now we have this thing, TRIOS ultra mobile, which me and Anoop talked about many years ago and he was like this is going to come and it’s going to work and now we do that.

Anup Ladva:
We walk into the room with the scanner. That’s it. Just the handheld scanner. Yeah. Sit down and scan. The thing is it’s so usable. So ultra-usable. The nurse is never going to tell you the scan is not being used because in three minutes whoever’s using it is finished their scan. It’s there. So you don’t have to bring a laptop plug in, whatever. Well what does it need? It needs infrastructure. Your IT infrastructure needs to be robust. The computers need to be like what I see out there, Z workstation beasts, like being able to deliver that kind of front, to be able to use the scanner in the surgery. What does that mean? You got to pay two grand for a computer in every surgery and people want to do that? Now they’d rather put £300 computer in every surgery. And then spend a hundred grand on a car or where are we spending our money? What are we doing here? Like come on.

Prav Solanki:
When you talk about workflow it’s quite interesting what you said there about workflow because different dentists will have different workflows and their team as well.

Anup Ladva:
Sure, yeah.

Prav Solanki:
So when you go in and do the training-

Anup Ladva:
So we do a date, we send out a form, we ask them loads of questions about IT, loads of this like how many surgeries you’ve got, where do you want to-

Payman L:
What is the name of the company?

Anup Ladva:
I CAD Academy.

Payman L:
I CAD.

Anup Ladva:
We don’t even advertise it. We just take it on referral because once you get one corporate you’ve got 10 sites that you need to work with and things like that. And so we send it out and then we go and I’ll go and have a little look around, couple of hours or get the practise manager to video what’s happening with their scanners. Most of these guys have already got scanners they’ve already bought them. That’s the crazy shocking thing is they already have it they just don’t know what they’re doing with them and then we have to go and upgrade the IT to make it better or change certain things in where it’s stored or how it’s kept, et cetera.

Prav Solanki:
So I’m a practise, bought scanner, probably not doing things efficiently or making mistakes. I reach out to you and your team, what’s the process? How long does it take, what sort of investment am I looking at?

Anup Ladva:
So process is send us an email, you can send it to me directly. Anud@ICAD.Academy, no problem. And we will send you out form. Thank you for choosing us and get some information. We need some-

Prav Solanki:
Onboarding.

Anup Ladva:
… information. We need some information. What are we dealing with? What have you got? Are you buying one? Have you bought one? Do you want us to help you buy one? Do you want us to help you tailor it to you ,or have you already got it and no one’s using it, which is a lot of what we see in the corporates. Then we’ll get person to liaise with, speak to them, go have a look around, see what’s going on. So they will either send us videos or we’ll go to the practise of is commutable for us and then we’ll book a day where we can go and if there’s no IT infrastructure and needs changing, if it is, we’ll make recommendations or when we go up we’ll be able to see depending on, it’s very tailored, bespoke. So if you need infrastructure change, IT change, then there’s changes.

Prav Solanki:
You support that.

Anup Ladva:
Then we’re going to help you support and we’re going to show you the IT you need to make it work. If you don’t and we just want to buy a scanner, we’re going to help you choose the right scanner that fits your workflow as opposed to you need a CEREC.

Prav Solanki:
You’re not married to a brand or a scanner or-

Anup Ladva:
No, I work a lot with TRIOS just because in my opinion is one of the best scanners out there. But that doesn’t mean that CEREC Prime scanner is amazing. If you’re on a ground floor and you’ve got three surgeries that you can wheel a cart in between, why not? It’s amazing. The head’s big each have got pros and cons. If you’re doing a lot of ortho work then the iTero is the one for you because if you’re doing a lot of Invisalign, there’s scope for it. The head’s big and the tips are chargeable. So you’ve got to build that in. Why not? If you’re a restorative, you want to do design smiles, bang and you want it to be 100% point on for restorative then TRIOS is the one.

Anup Ladva:
If you’re a traditional CEREC user, then Prime Scan works and there’s a lot of cheaper ones coming on the market now, Medit i500. We know all of them and we work with all of them, we have three-

Prav Solanki:
It’s your business-to know them all right?

Anup Ladva:
We have three of them and we play with them regularly. And the one I have in my surgery, which I’m 110% super comfortable with is the TRIOS. Just because it works well in my hands.

Payman L:
Back to the process, I’ve got that practise. Do I need you and your team in my practise for a day, two days?

Anup Ladva:
A day is usually enough. If we’re doing infrastructure and IT change then it needs more because there’ll be one day when the IT guys come in and then one day for me to come in and just work with you.

Payman L:
Do you get the computers cheaper than I can get them myself?

Anup Ladva:
No. We just buy them direct from HP. We have an account with them. We’ve done enough with them. Now that we have a guy at HP and I just say do I want… I don’t want to make no money on computers. It’s not for me. I want you to buy-

Payman L:
I know and it’s different every situation, but what’s the kind of the ballpark cost of that?

Anup Ladva:
So, if you’re doing a four surgery and you want to go ultra mobile the IT will cost you £15 the Trios will cost you £30, if we’re doing Trios.

Payman L:
And your bit?

Anup Ladva:
And my bit will cost you £5. Which is if you’re financing it all, rolling it all up it’s not a lot.

Payman L:
Are people finance that piece too?

Anup Ladva:
Yeah, you can finance the whole lot and just roll it up. And choose your own finance company. I don’t want to sell anything to anyone apart from my time and expertise. That’s it.

Prav Solanki:
You could blow five grand messing about-

Anup Ladva:
Oh, easy. Easy.

Prav Solanki:
Making mistakes.

Anup Ladva:
The biggest corporate in the world that they’ve got 27 scanners in the UK, they’ve got 27 scanners sitting in a cupboard. That’s like 200 grand, 300 grand’s worth of equipment and then no one knows what they’re doing with them. Not because the clinicians don’t, the engagement is high but they can’t make it work for them.

Prav Solanki:
One more question on that relates to the training and you mentioned it’s not just about the dentists. Who are the other team members you get involved in the training?

Anup Ladva:
So we try and involve all the auxiliary stuff. So whether it be hygienists, therapist, dentist receptionist as well. And the reason why is because then they get what’s happening and they get the process. So you know the certain practises where they, if they are using prime scan, the reception need to know like this is how long it took.

Anup Ladva:
So we can’t book at the same patient across two, three books and your nurse isn’t going to know that their nurse isn’t… Because they’re not looking at all the books. The actual reception team is the people who need to know that they’re like, he’s got prep and it says scan. So right, we need to get some time available elsewhere so that the other dentists can use it in scan. Because again, it’s workflow, it’s just workflow.

Anup Ladva:
So the last bit we do is obviously digital fly notes. Just I know we’re going to wrap, but I need to talk about this. This is something amazing. So fly notes is a consenting platform that we were working on.

Prav Solanki:
Consenting?

Anup Ladva:
Consenting because consent is a huge issue. With the things that have happened, Montgomery and all of the bits that we’ve seen, it’s not bespoke so it’s not individualised to the patient. So we have an algorithm that we’ve taken a long time building and also a process where it understands your medical history and then links it to the procedure we are carrying out, or intend to, and tailors the risks and benefits to that process. And it runs off an iPad.

Payman L:
How long did it take you to code that? Have you got people? People abroad?

Anup Ladva:
We’ve got people working abroad. We’ve got a lovely team, great team.

Payman L:
How long did it take you to-

Anup Ladva:
Two years, start to finish.

Payman L:
It’s a very important thing actually.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah. But the beauty is now it’s snow med linked. So essentially if you have high blood pressure you right up HBP or down HPP, it knows. We can pick that up and say right, high blood pressure or low blood pressure. Everyone’s notes are different. That’s the problem. And some people write no HBP so what does that mean?

Anup Ladva:
They used to have high blood pressure, now they don’t. So the system’s intelligent enough to work and pull things out and also take the drugs-

Prav Solanki:
Medication all that?

Payman L:
Drug interactions.

Anup Ladva:
Drug interactions, the works.

Payman L:
What a nightmare to set that up man.

Anup Ladva:
Well, it was hard work but it is stunning. Trust me when you see… we’re coming to market now.

Prav Solanki:
Integrates with?

Anup Ladva:
SOE and non-integrated with other versions. We’re trialling now, so yeah.

Prav Solanki:
And launch is?

Anup Ladva:
Fly notes dot… hopefully we should be launching in the biggest way at the October showcase.

Prav Solanki:
Okay. So October 2019.

Payman L:
Anud what is it about you that means you’re not just opening a practise and growing that practise. Why did you go from one practise to the next, to the next and then doing this and doing the other thing all at the same time.

Anup Ladva:
We’re not having all your eggs in one basket.

Payman L:
But is it a strategic or is it that you-

Anup Ladva:
And plus I love it. You know I love the game.

Payman L:
Love computers.

Anup Ladva:
I love the game. I love computers. I love IT. I love digital. I love technology. But more importantly is I like the process. If you love the process, you can never get bored of the game.

Payman L:
Because there’s five grand that you’re taking for the consult. You could make that as a dentist easily easy.

Anup Ladva:
Oh easy, yeah, yeah.

Payman L:
Probably even more work traipsing up to someone’s practise.

Anup Ladva:
Yeah.

Payman L:
But you love it.

Anup Ladva:
It’s helping people as well. And the thing that I really gets me is like when people get just stiffed over, I hate that. Companies are companies, what do they want to do? Sell things, right? Simple. They want to sell things, hook or crook, they want to sell it and it’s got to work. Some people just don’t see that it works. And other people were like, “Well I bought it…” The worst type of investment you can have is buy something that you don’t use. Start that gym membership I bought.

Prav Solanki:
So earlier on you alluded to, you know, we’ve talked about your success as a serial entrepreneur, multiple businesses, failed partnerships, successful partnerships. But the one thing that really stood out for me and it’s because it resonates with me as well, is the most important thing, your purpose, your cause, is to spend quality time with your family. And obviously recently your mum passed away and you told us about how lessons were passed on. Imagine it’s your last day on the planet and it’s your funeral and you left three pieces of advice for your family and the world. What would those be?

Anup Ladva:
Oh, Prav. This a tough one.

Prav Solanki:
So we’ve just met your little boy outside. What are you going to tell him?

Anup Ladva:
I would tell him that your longterm relationships with whoever they are need work. You need to work at them. Number one is you need to work at the people you care about.

Prav Solanki:
It doesn’t come easy, right?

Anup Ladva:
No way. No way. Number two, and that’s whether it’s your children. Whether it’s your partner, whether it’s your… People change, everything is dynamic. Gone are the days when it just used to be static with… Two is take time and work on yourself because-

Prav Solanki:
What does that mean?

Anup Ladva:
Work. In this day and age, mental health is so… And for them for like my kid’s age or our kids’ ages is you see kids committing suicide 10, 11, 12 like crazy things happening. A kid got thrown off the Tate the other day by another kid and dead calm when he did it. Didn’t try and run away. So it wasn’t intentional like crazy. I’m going to hurt this kid and run away. Just something to do with going through that kid’s head. Because if that was the opposite I’d be going crazy. I’ll be going mad. Like the kid was dead calm, like he didn’t care who came… You see it more and more and more.

Anup Ladva:
Work on yourself, work on your brain, work on your mind. If you want to learn how to draw someone will teach you how to draw, if you want to learn how to paint, paint. If you’re going to drive, drive. But who teaches you how to work on yourself? You, right? You’ve got take those steps.

Prav Solanki:
Personal development.

Anup Ladva:
Personal development. Yeah, and that doesn’t mean in your field of expertise or your work. It means, You mental awareness stuff. That’s fine.

Prav Solanki:
Number three?

Anup Ladva:
Number three is change your expectation for appreciation and your world will change man.

Payman L:
Meaning? Don’t look for thank you.

Anup Ladva:
Don’t expect anything but expect from anyone.

Payman L:
Don’t expect from anyone.

Anup Ladva:
Don’t expect anything from anyone and when it happens, appreciate it.

Payman L:
Rather than the other way round.

Anup Ladva:
You change your world. That will change your world.

Payman L:
That’s nice.

Prav Solanki:
And if your son was to say, my dad was… How would you finish that sentence? How you love to be remembered.

Anup Ladva:
If my sons came and said my dad was… I would love for them to say my best friend.

Prav Solanki:
Beautiful.

Payman L:
Thank you very much.

Payman L:
Thank you. It’s been a lovely conversation.

Prav Solanki:
Thank you.

Payman L:
Thanks for coming in buddy.

Anup Ladva:
Oh man. It’s been a pleasure.

Outro Voice:
This is dental leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry, your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki:
Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google play or whatever platform it is, and you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would…

Payman L:
Give us a six star rating.

Payman L:
Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Prav Solanki:
Thanks a lot guys.

Payman L:
Bye.

Transcript

Payman L:
Then you telling a dental surgery, does that leave you as like an adrenaline junky or something?

Danny Watson:
I don’t ride fast motor bikes. My wife wouldn’t let me have a motor bike.

Intro Voice:
This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki:
Hello and welcome to the Dental Leaders Podcast and today we’ve got the pleasure of having Danny Watson on the podcast, who is a very close friend, who I’d consider to be a brother and we’ve known each other for a few years. I asked him a while ago would he be willing to come here and share his story because he’s got a slightly different background to most people who enter dentistry. Danny, why don’t you take us way back to the beginning, where you grew up, school and how it all started.

Danny Watson:
Okay, yeah hello, thanks for having me on. I don’t think I’m a dental leader but I certainly enjoy sharing my story with you, Prav, you know you’ve probably heard it more than most. So taking it right back to the beginning, I was born in Dover, mom and dad split up when I was two and a half and my mum had a passion for wanting to own a pub so she worked in a lot of pubs and then my stepdad just sort of gave in after a few years and said, “Right, yeah we’ll buy a pub then”. We bought a pub in a place called Faversham where Shepherd Neame Brewery is, still. It was called the White Horse, it’s not there anymore, it’s offices. I lived in a pub, basically, for about seven years of my life surrounded by people and chatting to people in the bar, and drunks really.

Prav Solanki:
From age to what age was that, Danny?

Danny Watson:
From the age of six to the age of 12, so about six years. We went bankrupt because in Faversham there was like 53 or 56 pubs in a really small place, and then people would literally just move around pub to pub and you’d be like struggling, hanging all that time and then one month a year you’d crush it and a load of money, but obviously no one came back one month, so we went bankrupt.

Payman L:
Sitting in these podcasts I keep on hearing Prav’s story and different things he attributes his successes to. One of the main things he attributes his successes to is working with the public as a child in his dad’s shop. His dad had a taxi company. Would you say that exposure to the public early on has put you in a good position to deal with people?

Danny Watson:
100%. I actually, really, really do and me and Prav had a business going for a bit and I told my story on it. I think that early on, six years old to 12 years old, sitting in talking to people, learning how people react when you talk to them, trying to make them smile. My little game in my head when I was a kid was trying to make, how quick could I make someone smile, to get that link with them and then chat and have a conversation. I do think that really, really helps and it certainly helps in the chair. When the patient comes in my first goal is to find some sort of commonality, whatever it might be. Then they’re more than likely to listen to you and go ahead with treatment and be less anxious. It certainly is like a nice challenge for you, rather than seeing them as the next punter coming through the door, which is something that I never, ever, ever wanted it to be.

Payman L:
So then what happened next?

Danny Watson:
We actually moved out of town, like seven miles out of town. There wasn’t many buses going out there so I had to cycle seven miles to school and seven miles home after school on a racing bike. I think that was where my love of physical training came from. I used to test myself, how quick, it was pretty much downhill on the way there to school and on the way back it was uphill. So I used to time myself and try and beat every single day to school. That’s not how you should train, by the way. Try not to beat yourself every single day, you’ll get burnt out. Trust me, I am a trainer. Then I finished school because of this physical training thing. I actually, and I love the sport, but I was never really, really, really good. I was always sort of like just above average at most sports. I sort of fell in love with the idea of joining the Army.

Danny Watson:
At 16 I didn’t bother going to do A levels, I just wanted to join the Army. I didn’t know what I wanted to go in doing.

Payman L:
Was there military history in your family?

Danny Watson:
None whatsoever.

Payman L:
So what made you do that?

Danny Watson:
Sport, and there was a PE teacher at school who took the top sort of 15 kids of PE across the board, or most enthusiastic, I wouldn’t say top, and took us on an open day at Howe Barracks in Canterbury and we went there and I’d look at the Warrior Tanks and it was the… I think it was Price of Wales Royal Regiment and I thought God, I really want to do this. At the time I wanted to be a combat medical technician. I wanted to be a paramedic, I wanted to help people. So I liked being around people, my brother wanted to be a doctor and he was going towards that and got a place at university so I thought yeah I might follow in his footsteps because see how happy that made my parents. It just felt right, I’m going to join up.

Prav Solanki:
Was that important, Danny, how happy you made your parents at the time?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, massively. I always wanted to please them. I was a bit of a problem child when I was younger. I got into a lot of trouble, got suspended and expelled from one school. I got to a certain age, you know when you have to do your last two years and to GCSEs. I saw him, he’s two years ahead of me, and he got like five A stars, two As a B and a C and they were chuffed to bits and I just thought, “You need to wise up” so I sort of just changed overnight. I went right, you need to focus and get these grades. Certainly because they said you needed A-C to get, in maths, English and science, to get into the Army if you wanted to do anything technical wise, or even be a combat med tech, they said they’d like that. So I was like right, I’ve got a goal now, I went back in.

Danny Watson:
I was in the bottom set for English, this is a running theme in my life, I was in the bottom set and I couldn’t even get a C. I was just messing around, doing silly things in class and I spoke to the teacher and said, “Listen, I need to get in that set above”, and she was like, “You’re not getting in there. You’re a clown.” I was like, I’ll work my nuts off and I’ll do it. So I did. I started working my nuts off and she was like, “Actually, this guys producing some good”, and she sorted it out for me. Thanks to her, she sorted it out. I went to the set above for the last six months at school and managed to sit the exam. I don’t even know if it’s the same sort of thing these days, but you do a bracketed into what you could take, so the highest I could get was a C and I got a C in English and I was chuffed a bit because it meant I could join the Army and what I wanted to do.

Payman L:
Being a dentist wasn’t even anywhere near on your radar?

Danny Watson:
Never even heard about it until many, many, many, many years later. Didn’t even cross my mind even until the age of… how old was I in… 10 years ago. So 26 years old.

Payman L:
That’s the first time you thought about it?

Danny Watson:
First time ever.

Payman L:
Take us through what it’s like to be a full-time Army guy. Were you patriotic, were you scared when you went off? Where did you go?

Danny Watson:
Do you know what? It’s a funny thing, really because you get obviously basic training’s quite unique. They break you down, they turn you into, they make you think the way they want you to think. They try to make you very, very team orientated so that you’ll always think about others. You always look after your kit before yourself, but day to day normality on camp is very much like a normal job. You probably work a few less hours when you’re on camp, but when you go away you work very, very hard. You’re in stressful environments, so day to day-

Payman L:
When they tell you you’re about to be deployed somewhere what goes through you? Excitement, nerves?

Danny Watson:
Both.

Payman L:
Both, they’re supposed to be the same chemical according to that Simon.

Danny Watson:
Really?

Payman L:
Yeah.

Danny Watson:
Both because you’re trained to do that, so you’re like, brilliant, we’re going to go out and do the job we’re trained to do rather than just kicking around camp, fixing vehicles on camp or doing fears or whatever. Going to the ranges.

Payman L:
Is there any questioning should we be going or is that not, that’s not part of the?

Danny Watson:
You don’t question it.

Payman L:
You wouldn’t be a soldier if you did.

Danny Watson:
We don’t. Yeah, you don’t. You just go right, that’s a job. That’s my job, I go out and do it. There is some patriotic stuff involved, serving your country. I think that’s sort of indoctrinated into you when you go through basic training and throughout really. You’re very proud to be, a lot of people are. I wouldn’t say all, because some of them just do it for a job and money and because they come from very, very different backgrounds, they need to do something. But certainly for me it was like this is doing good. See when we went out, I always remember, it’s funny Prav recommended that I went for a float tank. I was a bit sceptical, I’m going to lay in this warm, salty water with no music, it’s dark.

Prav Solanki:
And Prav talking shit.

Danny Watson:
And pay like 35 quid to sit in a dark, dark room. 35 quid to sit in a dark room in a bit of warm water. It was like Dick Turpin wore a mask. But he was brilliant. But the funny thing was I travelled through time and I went through what I’ve just been telling you, but the one thing I couldn’t remember was those painful times and leaving. So leaving my mum on the platform when I was 16 to go to the Army. Getting on the flight Iraq twice and Afghanistan once, I can’t remember it, I can’t remember the actual flight itself, because obviously it was sad. You don’t know, you don’t know whether you’re going to come back or not, irrelevant of what job you’re in or whether you’re working here, there or anywhere. You just didn’t know, because it is the unknown. You are nervous but as soon as you get there you hit the ground.

Payman L:
There’s a job to do.

Danny Watson:
It’s just a job to do at the end of the day and you just do your job to the best of your ability and that’s exactly what… it was easier I think for us to be out there, even though it’s hostile, than it is for people back home waiting for the phone calls. Waiting for the letters. I think for most people it’s just a job and you just get on with it.

Prav Solanki:
What’s the worst thing that you saw during the Army?

Danny Watson:
People being shot, dealing with the casualties. I think my first day in Iraq was different. Iraq was totally different, Afghanistan was a different beast all together. The tour I was on was savage for casualties, for amputees, IEDs, improvised explosive devices. That’s what IEDs is, going off and blowing up patrols, basically loads of people and what they would do was they would work out where their emergency helicopter landing site would be, so they’d hit them there in one place and then they’d know that they’d extract that casualty to the helicopter landing site and they’d absolutely lay a tonne of these IEDs down and just demolish the whole squad. That was pretty crap, if I’m honest. I don’t know whether it should be on the podcast, but you know transporting body bags and stuff on flights and stuff like that, that wasn’t pleasant.

Payman L:
Do they somehow prepare you for that? Can one be prepared for that?

Danny Watson:
I don’t think you can, I don’t think there’s any pre-training that can train you for that. And I saw very little, compared to some lads. There was some guys that saw their best friends gone in front of them and my heart goes out to them, it upsets me a bit, really. And you just, tough time for people. One of my best friends got blown up. He’s doing really well, now. He’s doing really well and he even said… I listened to a podcast that he was on, really inspirational actually, his name’s Spencer Whitely. He got blown up in Iraq, intestines were hanging out, he lost half his quad, lost a thumb. One of my other really good friends who actually joined the PT Corps later on, the same Corps I did, saved his life by standing on his femoral artery. So he came back. His mentality to get better is unbelievable. On that podcast he just said, “There was not a day that I felt really sorry for myself. I’ve had the odd moment”, he said, “But all I’ve eve thought is moving forward. I need to provide for my family, I need to get going, I need to move, I need to get better. I need to walk.”

Danny Watson:
When they said you’ll never walk without a walking stick ever again when he left the Army, proved them wrong. He’s back squatting nearly 200 kilos now. He’s running, he’s skipping. He’s one of the best Cross Fit athletes, masters athletes over 40 to 45 on the planet. Top 20 in the world. Just goes to show, a lot of it is all mentality.

Payman L:
Something I wasn’t aware of, Stuart Raid who demonstrates on our cause, he’s one of the teachers, he’s an Army guy. One thing he tried to explain to me was that PTSD is kind of the norm, it’s not the odd people here. He said it’s the odd person who doesn’t suffer PTSD. It’s actually normal thing to happen.

Danny Watson:
I think that through history it just didn’t have a name. I like with most things in life everything’s on a sliding scale. There is a spectrum isn’t there? At some level you will be suffering a little bit, and some will be suffering more than others, but there’s also the sliding scale is how people cope with those things. It’s a real thing and it’s horrible. There’s a lot of charities out there helping a lot of guys and girls out and they do need the help. I’ve spoke about it at length with a lot of friends who are in some special jobs and they talk about it and say, “Look, it’s a real thing, you know. You come back.” But they have got stuff in place these days. Like it’s called Trim, they come back and it’s like post management. You get interviewed, but a lot of people can stay under the radar because they don’t want to look weak and that is a big stigmatism. You don’t want to be seen as being weak or going to the sick bay, seeing the doctor for anything because you think you’re getting a black mark next to your name and that was a big thing.

Payman L:
Surprising in this day and age.

Danny Watson:
Yeah. I think it might be changing. I’ve not been in for a while now. I’ve been out for seven and a bit years. I’ve still got friends in, who are the same age and stuff and they say the environment’s changing. People are speaking out and getting looked after a lot more. It’s good.

Payman L:
Then the first time you were exposed to dentistry was out in Afghanistan you said?

Danny Watson:
That’s right yeah, yeah, yeah. The obvious thing, really. I was flying around with a physiotherapist, flying out to the remote location. The FOBs they were called. Forward Observation Bases, he would do the hands on treatment, then I would write the exercise prescription programme to keep the lads and lassies on the ground, rather than having to fly all the way back to Bastion to be treated, to fly back out again. There would be sort of a treatment gap, so they’d be hanging around in Bastion for a while not being operative on the ground. So then they thought we’ll fly you out. They also flew a dental team out, a dentist and a dental nurse and we would fly in and stay in the medical sort of bay and have a camp cot there, two camp cots.

Danny Watson:
So we never co-located because we wouldn’t be able to sleep anywhere, if that makes sense. But one time it was in August, so next month 10 years ago, there was the elections in Afghanistan and we just accidentally were in Lashkargāh, it was called. It was the headquarters, for 10 days and everything was grounded for 10 days.

Danny Watson:
This dentist, he was a Major and my boss was a Captain, he was like, “Right lads, I’m a Major”, he’s right funny character, he wasn’t an officer, you know, he was like jack of a lad, he went, “So I’m going to work in the mornings and have the afternoons off”. Because we had the same clinical bay. “You guys can have the afternoons, I don’t care what you do in the mornings.” I was like, “All right, fine”. So I just went go up, cracked some fizz and I was like a bit of a loose end here. So used to watch what they were up to and they were treating Afghanis, they were treating soldiers because if someone, if the Afghanis come to the front gate and they’re in pain we’ve got a responsibility to treat them.

Danny Watson:
It was just amazing, really. They’d come in and have these little root stumps everywhere, now I know they’re retained roots, didn’t know before, they were just black. And they’d be like, right, numb them all up, extract them all and then send them out and sort them out. Same for the lads, because if you… you need to keep your oral health up to tiptop condition so you can eat and not have any pain, so I was just like, this is pretty cool. I’d get to work with my hands, which I used to do when I was an engineer. I used to fix tanks and fix people rather than fixing machines, which I was doing fixing people but I was doing it with my mind writing programmes, so I thought right, I’m going to go on the internet. Used to get like 20 minutes a week or something like that. So I went on and was like yeah, that’s good, Cardiff, I live in Newport. Cardiff’s got a place, I haven’t got A levels but I’ll get in with this. I might have to do my GCSE English again, because I only got a C, which horrified me.

Payman L:
So you did the A levels or didn’t need them?

Danny Watson:
No, well I didn’t need A levels because when I was-

Payman L:
Pre-med year.

Danny Watson:
I had to do a pre-med year. I had a foundation degree in health, sport and fitness, so I got my foot in the door but they still made me re-take my GCSE English for a pride. So I phoned my missus on my 20 minute phone card you get a week and I was like, “Allie”, she was like, “You all right love, you okay?” I was like, yeah all good. I was like, “Guess what?” She’s like, “What’s that?” “I want to be a dentist.” She was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah just come back safe and we’ll talk about this when you get back”, and I was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah I’m doing it.” And put the phone down. And then just got fascinated with it, a bit like anything I’m like. Once I get my mind to something I’m sort of like, I’ve got to do it.

Danny Watson:
So I came back, started doing, on my own time, my GCSE English. I had a family friend who used to be an English teacher and she helped me out with my coursework and stuff and I then did two weeks work experience. I was in Plymouth, a peninsula, and they were hands on. It was when they did the four year course, not the five year course. They’re hands on from year one. I was like this is cool, I definitely want to do this. I applied, but I didn’t hear anything back whatsoever. Everywhere I heard, Cardiff was like, “Nah”, Bristol, “Nah, don’t want him.” And then Dundee same thing, no, don’t want you. Six year course. Then Manchester was still left open on the UCAS application system and I got posted from Plymouth to near Cardiff, so I was living at home and I was loving it. I was travelling 45 minutes in, in the morning, 45 minutes home.

Danny Watson:
I worked in this fantastic facility fixing quality soldiers who were really up for it and I thought, “God, I could do this, actually. I’m really loving it.” I was managing people and sort of got a tip of the hat saying look, you’re probably going to get promoted to star major soon, but if we do it will you be willing to move anywhere? I was a bit like, not sure. Allie’s really happy with only living down the road, but it is a star major job and I didn’t think I was going to get this place and then all of a sudden, ding, it came up and it was like come up for an interview.

Payman L:
Manchester?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, Manchester. So I drove up. I remember it vividly. I popped into 3D, Cross Fit 3D, that is a gym. I was well into Cross Fit at the time. Did the interview process, went back for it, didn’t do very well in that. It was like a group discussion, bits and pieces. I didn’t want to be overpowering, you know. I went home and thought, well, I’ve got a decent job anyway, so great prospects. The very next day, I literally arrived up at the accommodations to give a room inspection so the lads and lassies have cleaned out their lockers and made their beds and stood by their beds. I was about to go in and inspect it, I looked at my phone and I had an email saying you’ve got a place if you want it. I just remember my heart racing. It must have gone from about 35 beats per minute to about 200.

Danny Watson:
I was like, “Oh my God this is ridiculous.” I just went in and was like, “Yeah, knock off for the weekend, you’re really good.” I went home, my wife was in Vegas actually, she was in Vegas with her best friend who lives in Australia and I phoned her and said, “You’re not going to believe this, I actually got a place.” I said, “I don’t know what I’m going to do”, but in my head I knew what I was going to do, I was going to take it. These opportunities do not come along that often. She was like, “You’ve got to do it, even if you move up on your own and just live up there on your own, then you’ve got to do it.” In my head I was like, “I hope I move up on my own.”

Payman L:
Your outlook as a dental student compared to the classical, like me, A levels, straight in, bit of a kid, bit of a child to tell you the truth. Boy’s school, straight in, bit of a child. Your outlook must have been totally different. First you really feel like you got this place that you weren’t expecting to get so you feel very happy, proud that you got it and you’re going to make the most of it. But secondly, an adult who’s done three tours of duty in the military, what the way you approached the course? Was it like you were going to squeeze every drop out of it? It was?

Danny Watson:
Yeah absolutely that. Basically every opportunity I got, do some extra clinics, speak to people, work hard. Work hard throughout the year so I’m not just cramming so when it comes to exam time it was easy. It was easy, obviously, because it wasn’t, but I certainly wasn’t overly stressed at exam times because I felt like I’ve drip fed it throughout the whole year and just kept motivated. There’s a lot to lose, stakes are high, I’ve just given up my job and I’ve left with a bit of a bang. I sent an email. There were some errors in the PT Corps with the hierarchy and stuff.

Payman L:
Oh you let them know?

Danny Watson:
I let them know, I wrote this really long email and it was a couple of reasons for it. It needed to be said. The day I left at 12 o’clock on a Friday, at 11:59 sent it and left. I had some missed call and I did answer, the RSM was like, “Danny, it’s Sid”, and I was like all right. I didn’t even know what to call him because normally it would be “sir”. I was a bit like, “…yeah”. So I burned the bridges, but I did it on purpose, I burned the bridges so I’d never go back. There was high stakes. I just thought if I don’t pass this, I’m not academically gifted, it’s just I have to work really, really hard, so I just went in and worked really, really hard for six years, basically.

Payman L:
When you say you did it on purpose, so what, you were so convinced you were never going to go back?

Danny Watson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
That you literally burnt your bridges on purpose?

Danny Watson:
If that path was open. These things had to be said, there were some things of backstabbing, stuff like that. They talked about esprit de corps. “Esprit de corps, we’re all in it together!” But the PT Corps is 450 people strong, who are high flyers. You go through a selection process, you’ve got a nine month probation course where you do all these courses, at any moment it could just be like, “All right, get back to your unit, you’re not what we want”. It’s a high sieve machine, so you’ve got these thrusting people who just want to get to the top. They want the best rank, the best reports and they want to get there as soon as possible. There’s a lot of egos kicking around. A couple of things happened to my friends, stuff like that. Things happened to me, but I’d just say it there and then, just tell people, “Look, no way.” And we’d sort it out there and then. But some of my friends were a little more reserved so I felt like I had to stick up for them, but in the back of my mind it was like if that path is open for me to go and I start struggling maybe I’d take that easy path, the path of least resistance. So that door was definitely closed, shut.

Prav Solanki:
Whilst you were in the Army and probably a little bit after as well, you’ve mentioned this to me quite a few times, the brotherhood. What does that mean?

Danny Watson:
Specifically in certain units, infantry units, you’re so close knit. You’re together for the whole of your career, then I did my commando course. Getting that green beret was not just getting a green lid on your head, when you go through that… when you suffer together so much you have a bond and it’s sort of indoctrinated into you that you never, ever let your brother or your sister down, you know? More so a brotherhood because it’s mainly blokes isn’t it? You have this set of values and things that you live by so if everyone of those people or my friends ever need anything I’d drop it and I’d go. That’s really important but it was one thing I was scared to lose when I left. I was quite upset when you left camp because you think, that’s it, it’s over. You’ve lost it forever.

Danny Watson:
Little did I know, those people that you are so close to, they’ll always be around. You don’t have to speak to them every single month or even a year, but you get the odd message or you see them or bump into them and they’re there. Or you need them and they’re there like that, and that’s happened a couple of times since.

Payman L:
Do you think it’s possible to recreate that in an organisation without the pain that you went… of course it’s never going to be that, but elements of that.

Danny Watson:
Yeah I do.

Payman L:
You see military people do so well in business sometimes, don’t you, that it must come, that discipline and looking out for the other.

Danny Watson:
I totally believe you can get to a level of it. Again, that spectrum thing, it’s a sliding scale, isn’t it? And certainly I think teamwork and constantly helping each other out, irrelevant of where you are, who you are, so whether you’re the dentist, the dental nurse, the reception staff or anything, if you show willing and you literally will do anything for them, there’s no job too big and no job too small. A little bit like sweeping the sheds, like the New Zealand rugby team. That goes a long, long way. And just being there for people, end of the day saying thank you to people, end of the day, “Are you all right? You didn’t seem yourself today?” Not just thinking about yourself. I think there’s so much, not just in dentistry, so many people-

Payman L:
Any organisation.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, people are in such a drive and a drive for themselves, they never look to the peripheries and see what’s actually happening, or who’s falling by the wayside. And that’s something that we never were taught in the military. It was as one unit we’ve got one mission and we go together and you keep looking in your five and twenties, five metres, 20 metres, to see where everyone is because you can’t leave someone behind can you? And you might need them one mile down the road, irrelevant what mission you’re on, you need to be as… you know.

Payman L:
It’s weird because from the outside you don’t think soldiers are these kind types. Dealing, just in the six months I’ve known you, such a kind person. It’s not an archetypal thing that you think from the outside a soldier is. Stewart’s the same, Stewart’s the same. Have you met Stewart?

Danny Watson:
No, I haven’t, actually, no.

Danny Watson:
I don’t think he was in Manchester at that time?

Payman L:
Maybe he wasn’t in that particular one, yeah, you’d like him. But again, same thing. I’ve spoken to him about it as well.

Danny Watson:
Yeah,

Payman L:
That looking out for your… from the outside you don’t realise it.

Prav Solanki:
You don’t see it.

Danny Watson:
I’ve got some friends, Slay-Jones brothers, they are from the thickest of the thick valley boys, Wales, you know. Hard as nails, rugby through and through, played Army combine services, they are tough cookies. From the exterior they really are, but they are some of the most thoughtful blokes, ever. When I was going through dental degree, this is like I was talking about, you know you might not hear from them, Daryl would write me, get the postcards. He’s got the Danny the Champion of the World postcards, gone and bought like six different ones and now and then he’d just write me a little letter saying words of wisdom. Even when it’s painful and you’re struggling just remember what you’re doing it for. Just receiving that out of the blue was brilliant. I’ve kept them all.

Danny Watson:
His brother, Gareth, he’s got two kids. It’s my graduation, we finished on the eighth, got the results on the eighth of June, on the ninth Allie had set up a party for me, he’d phoned his mom up, “Right, Mum, need you over here”, he lives in Aldershot, in Surrey, Hampshire and she drive from Wales, looked after the kids for one night, he got on the train, came all the way to Manchester just for that night. Didn’t know anyone there. He was like, “No, I’m going to be there.” Just legends, you know what I mean, they’re there forever. They’re the most thoughtful boys, but the most brutal. They’re star majors, they’re W1s, they’re the top of the tree, you can’t go any higher as a non-commissioned officer and you wouldn’t want to cross them in work.

Danny Watson:
I saw Gareth, recently, this is ridiculous. He’s gone to work in HQ so there’s quite a lot of civilians that work in there, and they were working on this group spreadsheet and it’s got a massive long file name, so he’s working at it, it’s really complex stuff. Gareth is not into this, he’s like just a worker. So he’s struggling away filling out this database. He’s been working at it four hours and this little civvy comes up and goes, “You’re working on the wrong one mate, I changed the file name last week.” Gareth’s like, “What?” He went, he was like, “Nate, are you fucking joking with me man?” He went, “What?”, swearing. He went, “I’m going to throw you off that balcony, you better be joking.” He went, “I’m not joking.” Gareth’s like, he had to go for a walk. You wouldn’t want to cross him in work, you know, but they’re some of the sweetest blokes you’ll ever meet.

Prav Solanki:
What was your proudest moment in the military?

Danny Watson:
Getting that green beret, mate. 100%. Every time I look at it, it just meant so much to me, 13 years of… 12 actually. 12 years of wanting that but I wasn’t ever in the right unit. They kept dangling a carrot, “Yeah you can go on it, yeah you can go on it”, and at the last minute, “Nope.” So I had 12 years of just wanting this. I feel like I am that sort of person. I like being a team player, I like physical challenges. Going through the beat after that, I came back from Afghanistan, went straight down to Plymouth. You go on a beat up, the beat up is where they sort of condition you for the course, but it’s actually worse than the course. So you go to a place called Oak Hampton on Dartmoor. Horrendous place. It could be 30 degrees sunshine at the bottom, three miles up the hill you get to Oak Hampton camp and it’s snowing.

Prav Solanki:
Just describe the experience for us sort of lay people.

Danny Watson:
So, Oak Hampton? Or the course in general?

Prav Solanki:
The experience.

Danny Watson:
This was the coldest winter we’d had for 10 years. Remember when we had minus 11 and windchill factors and stuff. We turned up there the first day, and historically, thankfully not for us, what used to happen was they park the minibus at the bottom, you’d have your burg and all your kit, all your civvy bags, so you probably have about 70 kilos worth of kit. They used to park the minivan at the bottom, it’s a three mile probably 10% incline to the top. They’d be like, “Right, you’ve got X amount of time, if you don’t get there in time you’re going back to camp. You can’t even start the beat up.” So we didn’t get to do that, which I’m really thankful for because I probably wouldn’t have made it. No, I would have done. We got to camp and they’re like drop your kit, get your PT kit on, it was pissing down with rain. You had a t-shirt and shorts, that’s it. And trainers, obviously. They just thrashed us for three and a half hours. Running, crawling through water. Keeping with the instructors, they would rotate in and out, so they had fresh legs. Climbing ropes. Three hours.

Danny Watson:
They just wanted to see who wanted to be there. And then the people that couldn’t cope with that. They kept saying, “It’s going to finish lads, it’s going to finish”, and then you go even further and even further. And it was just testing how much you wanted it and your mental capacity. That was a daily occurrence for four weeks. We had two weeks before Christmas, had a two week break and a two week after. Probably that’s not how they usually do it, they usually go four weeks straight. That was really bad because you get to chill out over Christmas. I was consuming about 10,000 calories a day and I was still losing weight. I came home one day, a weekend. We got Saturday afternoons off and Sundays so I went back and it was Rugby International in Cardiff, so I got back, met Allie in town. I wasn’t drinking because I didn’t want to compromise my fitness for the course, so I was out hanging out with them.

Danny Watson:
I was like, right, I need to go and get some food, I’ve already had my breakfast. So I went and got two pies, had those, came back an hour later I was like I need to go out and get some food again, I had a 12 inch Subway, come back. Ont he way home I had fish and chips and when I got home I was like, “Allie, I’m still hungry.” She was like right I’ll cook you up some homemade stir fry and stuff. So it was basically a battle of attrition and then working together. The actual course itself, what happens is you get buddied up with someone. They’re called your basher buddy. The buddy buddy system. He was my guy for the 10 week course. So we’d live in a bed space next to each other on camp and then we’d also, when we’d go out on exercise or week we’d be in the shell scrape together. So you’d have the poncho over the top. He’d cook dinner, I’d clean my weapon or I’d make the brew he’d clean his weapon, we were always together.

Danny Watson:
If it wasn’t for him I’d never got through the course and vice versa. His name’s Paul Squires, absolute legend of a human being. So if I’m at times struggling he’d pick me up and we’d keep going. So getting that at the end of the 30 miler, you’d do these four tests and you culminate with 30 miles over Dartmoor, starting at Oak Hampton Camp, you start on a place called Heartbreak Hill and they run you up that bad boy for the start of a 30 miler. You’re carrying sort of about 25 pound on your back, plus your weapon on top and you’ve got to go and you’ve got to do it in eight hours. You stop every six miles, have a cup of Ribena and a banana. None of these energy drinks and protein shakes. That’s all we got every six miles. Then you finish. Everyone finishes at the same place, and you stand in a hollow square and they present you with a beret and it was the best achievement I ever made.

Payman L:
And yet outside when we were talking, also your lowest moment.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, big time.

Payman L:
Because you were so focused on it.

Danny Watson:
So focused on it. I went back to camp, and I say I wanted it for 12 years, got this green beret, back on camp with all the other green lids in 29 Commando and I just felt lost. I felt absolutely broken, I just didn’t know what I wanted in life. I actually felt like I was going to leave the Army. I actually said, “Guys, I’m going to leave”.

Payman L:
Burn out, is it?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, totally. I didn’t even train for 10 weeks. Luckily I was my own boss, I was a staff sergeant and I ran the rehab centre, so I’d literally just get up when I wanted, go into work, because they were still counting on me, these lads, but I’d get in like an hour late and as soon as I’d finish at four, five o’clock I’d just go to bed. Get in bed, for 10 weeks. I’d phone Allie and she’d be like, “I don’t know what to say to you, I don’t know what to do for you”, and there was nothing she could do. I just keep saying, “Why don’t I just leave, I want to just leave the Army.” Then I had a phone call, I had like an epiphany sort of thing, I had a phone call, one of my mentors that took me though my transfer course to the PT corps. His name is Benny, Carl Bennet. Absolute legend of a human being. Four foot 10. Black belt in Tai Kwan Do. Fourth of Great Britain, he’s a beast. He was so wise as well, he was a Geordie. I just phoned him up and said, “Benny, something’s up with me mate”, and he was just like, “Oh weird, Danny lad” he was like, “All you’ve got to do is switch your focus, kid.”

Danny Watson:
I was like yeah, cheers, mate. I’ve been trying to do that. But those words, it was really weird, so simple. And it was, “You just need to switch your focus, lad. Find something you love doing and just do something new.” It was so simple and I bet Allie’d said that a million times, but because he’s said it I was like yeah. And I thought there’s a Cross Fit gym down there and I’ve been doing it sort of roughly on my own before I stopped training that 10 weeks earlier and I thought, “What am I frightened of?” I need to get off camp, need to meet some people. Some real people. And I went down there and just fell in love with it. It was that community aspect of being around people and the training.

Payman L:
The extremes of that green beret training and then the extremes of war, and the extremes, they have to condition you for that. But then you’re starting a dental surgery, does that leave you as like an adrenaline junky or something? Do you ride fast motorbikes or… do you know what I mean? It’s just a totally different situation.

Danny Watson:
I don’t ride fast motorbikes. My wife wouldn’t let me have a motorbike. I’m not into fast cars, I’m not into anything like that.

Payman L:
To adrenaline?

Danny Watson:
I’m into physical challenges.

Payman L:
Tell us about the chin up thing.

Danny Watson:
I attempted to break the world record for strict pull ups, chin ups, pull ups. You know, hand super pronated rather than supernated. So not facing you, palms away, not facing you. I tried to break the strict pull up record for 24 hours, in December 2016. That got driven from, in 2005 I met a guy called Steve Highland. You can look him up on social media. He’s in his sixties now, the guy is still bashing out pull ups like nothing. He can do like 200 in like 10 minutes. It’s ridiculous. I remember speaking to him at a fitness event and I was like, I wonder if I can do that. He’d just broken the world record and I thought I wonder if I can do that. I was a bit scared to do it on my own, so I phoned my best mate up, Gibbo, who now lives in New Zealand, runs his own gym. I was like, “All right mate, how are you doing?” And we went, “Hey, I’m good, good. What’s up?” I went, “You fancy doing a charity event?”

Danny Watson:
This is back in 2008, so it took me three years to get to this point. I went, “You fancy doing seven chin ups and seven dips every minute for 24 hours?” And he went, “Yeah, yeah. We’ll do it.” There was no question. He was just like, “Yeah, why not, let’s do it to help heroes”. I was like, “Yeah, great”. So we actually did seven chin ups, seven dips every minute and he went let’s go do 20 minutes at lunch and see how it feels. It was really hard. At 20 minutes got back on the phone but we both did it. We got back on the phone and were like it’s doable, from 20 minutes. And we did it in 2008, so I put it to bed then. It’s just niggling away at the back of my head. In February 2016 I watched a guy, someone sent me a link to a Finnish guy doing chin ups in 24 hours and I went, “I’m just going to do it.” So I just messaged someone and said I’m doing it. When I told someone I was doing it.

Prav Solanki:
That was it.

Danny Watson:
I’m doing it. That’s how I roll anyway, that’s my whole thing in life. If you tell someone you’re going to do something you can’t back out of it. And I trained for it. I didn’t break it, that was…

Payman L:
Did it break you?

Danny Watson:
No, it did. And more so, that was my second lowest point after that.

Payman L:
Oh really.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, yeah. Physically and mentally. Mentally I’m probably still recovering from it.

Payman L:
Really?

Danny Watson:
Yeah because training wise I just haven’t got the fire in my belly. I still train four or five times a week, but I haven’t got the fire in my belly like I used to. It took my body to the point where I couldn’t actually do anymore pull ups. I did seven chin ups in an hour at the end of 19 hours. I must have failed, what do you reckon Prav? Probably about 60 of them, 70 of them?

Prav Solanki:
Yeah, yeah.

Danny Watson:
I just couldn’t grip onto the bar, I couldn’t pull. But I didn’t want to give up.

Prav Solanki:
It was awful to see because you see Danny as this chin up guru, right?

Payman L:
You were there in the room?

Prav Solanki:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah I was there, however long you were there, but seeing him being such a strong, fit guy and then look so weak and fail. And not give up, and then to see Danny fall asleep, but his arms kept moving in his sleep as though he was doing chin ups.

Payman L:
Oh my goodness.

Prav Solanki:
He was like having these involuntary actions on his, he was a mess and then for weeks and months later you recovered slowly.

Danny Watson:
Slowly, yeah. I couldn’t even grip.

Prav Solanki:
But lots of good came out of that, Danny.

Danny Watson:
A lot of good. A lot of good. And that’s the thing in life. Out of every situation there’s always something really positive to come out of it. And that situation 17,000 pounds was raised for cleft lip and pallet, clapper. Then lots of friends, people who came, friendships were solidified. Business came out of it, didn’t it Prav? Me and you started a business together. And our relationship’s flourished from that. I don’t think any situation, obviously there’s a few situations where probably no good’s going to come out, but in most you can always take a positive, can’t you?

Payman L:
Yeah.

Danny Watson:
And push forwards. So yeah, physical challenge is one thing I do like doing. Maybe that’s my thing.

Payman L:
You said you were divorced. Was being in the military part of that?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Payman L:
Is that a common story?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, 100%. Everyone, yeah. There’s a joke, if you’re not married and divorced and married again in the Army you’re not doing it right.

Payman L:
Really?

Danny Watson:
Because you’re away for a long period of time. It happened when I was away, she cheated on me when I was in Iraq the second time and I came back and she was just like, “Nah.” So…

Payman L:
How did that feel?

Danny Watson:
It was pretty shit, mate. Yeah, it was rubbish, but again, you dust yourself off. There’s no point wallowing in your own self pity because you’re not going to change the situation so you’re never look back. The funny thing is, I’ve got one of those minds. I’ve told you about it before, mate. I’ve got one of these things where once a door closes I never think about it pretty much again. Just look, what’s the next thing?

Payman L:
Compartmentalise?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, absolutely. Like going in the float tank, couldn’t remember any of that. Don’t remember any traumatic experience. It’s sort of like, it’s weird isn’t it?

Danny Watson:
Yeah, it’s weird.

Payman L:
It’s like a defence mechanism.

Danny Watson:
I think so, yeah. It must be. Must be.

Prav Solanki:
I remember first meeting Danny and I was reading Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Payman L:
Great.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, brilliant book.

Prav Solanki:
An amazing book. But at the time I met Danny and he was-

Payman L:
At what stage, when was that? Was that before, when he was a soldier or was it dental?

Danny Watson:
I know exactly where I met you, mate. It was in Cross Fit 3D, you were sitting on the couch next to the window after you’d just had a PT session with Rick Whiteleg. You had your car outside and I was like, “Oh, this is quite a nice car”.

Payman L:
Lamborghini.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, it was that. I wasn’t going to say, but.

Prav Solanki:
Thanks, Pay.

Danny Watson:
I went, “That’s a nice car, can I have a ride in it?” And you said yeah, didn’t you! You were like, “Yeah mate, jump in, I’ll take you for a spin”. Then you asked me a couple of questions about what I’m doing in Manchester.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah.

Danny Watson:
You were like, “My brother’s a dentist” and I was like, “Oh, wow. Really?” And you were like, “Yeah, do you want me to get you some work experience with him?” And I was like, “That’d be unbelievable”. But I was in my foundation year, so I knew nothing about dentistry and I still don’t. Yeah, that’s where it all started.

Prav Solanki:
And so the point I was making was that, I was reading that book and I Danny was everything that book taught me. Dale Carnegie goes, “Always ask questions, always ask questions, always ask questions. Always be genuinely interested in the other person”, and that was you.

Payman L:
So it resonated with you because you were reading the book.

Prav Solanki:
Big time. Big time.

Danny Watson:
You never said, you’ve never ever, ever said that to me.

Payman L:
You didn’t know that?

Danny Watson:
I didn’t know that. That’s a good book.

Payman L:
And then you two started training with each other?

Prav Solanki:
I hired him.

Payman L:
Did you?

Danny Watson:
He was unbelievable. I was like yeah, yeah so… he was like, “I might try you”. I was new to this game, I was new to this game and he’s an old sweat at this game, you know. I didn’t know how much I was worth at the time and to be fair I was undercharging for it all because I didn’t value my own knowledge and experience and so I was like, “Yeah it’s 35 quid an hour, but if you buy in bulk 30 quid.”

Prav Solanki:
No 10, you said if I buy 10.

Danny Watson:
If you buy 10 it will be like 30 quid each session. “You went I’ve just put 30 sessions in your bank account”, I was like, “I’ve just won the lottery!” I was like, “Oh my God, what has just happened”. Then I was like how can I get these done quick? Do you want to do every day, mate? No, it was good wasn’t it? That’s how we started, I started training him. Then we’ve just become really good friends and it becomes uncomfortable for me to charge a friend, but you didn’t want to stop. So even when I categorically said I am giving up my personal training, I need to focus on my studies in the fourth year and fifth year, he was like, “I’ll come to your house, I’ll come to your house at six in the morning and train in your cold shed”. I had a full gym in this little shed, didn’t I?

Prav Solanki:
Tiny little space.

Danny Watson:
Cold, mate, in the winter.

Prav Solanki:
Made for people who are about five and a half foot.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, it was really low. We fit it all right. We did all right. I wouldn’t take any money off him then. It was like no way. He’d turn up once, twice a week. Tell you what, it was so cold. We had to have gloves on to pick the bars up. It was good wasn’t it?

Prav Solanki:
It was good times.

Payman L:
You’re into those ghetto gyms, generally, aren’t you? You’re not into the chichi gyms are you?

Prav Solanki:
Definitely not.

Danny Watson:
This boy, he knows how to train all right. He knows how to train really well. I’m so… you sit here, guys, and you obviously interview other people. I’m more interested in you guys. Prav knows when we spent the weekend together recently, as in last weekend, I just asked, I just love getting inside his head and like just before we started this, trying to find out a bit more about you. I find people very, very, very interesting. Why they do the things they do. Prav, for instance, used to be a body builder when he was going through Oxford, you know, clever guy. Then got some serious injuries and lost his way for a bit and keep pecking his head. You know, you need to start mate, you need to start, you need to start.

Danny Watson:
Like I just said, you can hear it and hear it and hear it but then someone says something to you and it switches. And his was Bobby, his wife. Literally was like said a sentence to him and next day, boom. Back on it, and now he looks incredible six months in. It just goes to show when you set your mind to something and you really want it, and you have a plan, and you stick to it consistently, there’s no secret. There’s no secret to any success I don’t think. Irrelevant of what you gauge success to be. Some people’s success will be having lots of things and lots of money, whereas for other people success is having time with your friends and family. Sitting down and read a book, where I can read for two hours a day. For them it’s a lot to have achieved it. It doesn’t matter what it is, you should never snub anyone for what they’re really proud of. It’s really cool isn’t it? It’s like now he’s flying and you’re probably performing better in business-

Prav Solanki:
Totally.

Danny Watson:
And everything, with your family, your kids.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah, yeah, yeah everything.

Danny Watson:
It’s great.

Payman L:
He’s a bit of an obsessive type. I know probably you were procrastinating because you knew, once you jump in you’re jumping in.

Prav Solanki:
I think with the fitness challenge, and it’s a curse as well as gift, right? You know you’ve been there, you know exactly what you need to do to get there and so you can take your foot off the gas and have some cocky arrogance and confidence that you can bounce back, but I tell you something. You cannot even begin to think about or measure what damage you are doing inside.

Danny Watson:
Oh, mate.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah. So I put weight on, I got fat. I was 20 kilos heavier than I am today, right? But what about the clogs in my arteries? What about the damage that’s happened internally that I can’t see? Yeah, I can sit there with arrogance and confidence and say yeah, I can lose 20 kilos like that. Not easy, but I can do it, but I won’t be undoing the irreversible damage that I’ve done whilst I’ve been abusing my body.

Danny Watson:
And you might never.

Prav Solanki:
And I might never. That in itself is, it’s a regret for sure.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, but it’s a cool journey, mate.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah, I’m enjoying it.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, absolutely.

Payman L:
You’ve trained thousands of people, right?

Danny Watson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
What kind of types, did you manage to break them all into it? What types of people do you get? Is everyone fully motivated when they come to you or some people?

Danny Watson:
Absolutely not. There’s, again, I’m a big believer in this sliding spectrum of people, you’ve got these type A people who are just-

Payman L:
It’s as much about psychology as [crosstalk 00:52:04].

Danny Watson:
100%. It’s all about motivators. What motivates the individual to do something. So like normally those people that you see that are gym obsessed, they’ve got some sort of body dysmorphia. Or, they’re narcissistic. [inaudible 00:52:18]. And they don’t necessarily love themselves. That’s a really big mistake people are like, “Oh my god, he loves himself”. Actually, don’t. It’s the polar opposite and they’re quite insecure about it, whereas then the other side of things, there’s someone who, again, still feels the same, absolutely loathes themselves, or almost. But they’re trying to change, they’re trying to get healthy for different reasons. That might be they’ve just had a kid or a loved one might have passed away, or they just all of a sudden went, “I need to do it”. But they’re scared to start because they look a certain way, so coming into the gym, I’m a big advocate of Cross Fit because it’s a community driven training system where you’re not isolated on your own and everyone brings you up and no one’s judging. I’ve seen all sorts. Some people take it on board.

Danny Watson:
It’s not for everyone. There’s a famous saying, it’s says, “Fitness in general”, it’s a Cross Fit person, Greg Glassman said this. He goes, “It’s for anyone, but it’s not for everyone”, and that’s fitness in general. And that means fitness is for anyone but it’s not for everyone.

Payman L:
I get it.

Danny Watson:
So it’s available for everyone, but not everyone will take it up.

Payman L:
Not everyone will take you up.

Danny Watson:
Exactly.

Prav Solanki:
So moving forward, Danny, what exciting new challenges have you got ahead? What doors are you closing, what doors are you opening, moving forward?

Danny Watson:
Job wise, moving out of my first year of foundation training and moving out of the MHS into private dentistry, going to work for your brother. So [inaudible 00:54:07], up in Kiss Dental, and that’s super exciting. Also a little bit daunting, if I’m honest. But really exciting. It’s just a learning platform, isn’t it? To learn and just keep improving and improving. I think you do that in any job you go into. I’m mega chuffed to start in September full time and learn there. Personally, at home I’m going to be a dad next month, so that’s probably an even bigger challenge, to be honest. I am really excited about that, it’s like two years of trying, losing a baby, and now my fingers crossed it all goes well. That’s going to be pretty cool. I know you’re both dads, aren’t you?

Prav Solanki:
Yeah.

Payman L:
Yeah.

Danny Watson:
Best job in the world.

Payman L:
Professionally, do you think you’re going to set your sights on something in dentistry that you’re going to treat like that green beret?

Danny Watson:
I don’t know, at the moment.

Payman L:
I mean, at Kiss Dental it makes a lot of sense to learn implants.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, the thing is I want to do something I like doing, and the other thing is, I don’t want to pigeonhole myself into something. I quite like the idea of being a generalist, but you’ve got to have a little niche. Have to.

Payman L:
Just ask those 700-800 implants a year go in.

Danny Watson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
It’s a great opportunity to learn something about that for sure.

Danny Watson:
And it’s endless. You know, you’ve got like Kay’s going away to Brazil learning to do zygomatic and doing Pterygoid implants, constantly learning different tricks. That side of things is always progressing, you know. The way dentistry’s changing, there’s a lot of digital dentistry. It’s going to be ridiculous, isn’t it? It’s going so quick, so you’ve just got to be on board with it. I haven’t figured out what it is, just yet.

Payman L:
I think you’re very luck with Kaylesh, because I remember we started doing composites 8-9 years ago and he said, “Nah, not for me,” and now composites are a thing and now 40% of his business is composites.

Danny Watson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
He’s so flexible.

Danny Watson:
I know, yeah.

Payman L:
Flexible and willing to learn and find out the best way to do something, the quickest way to do something. It’s a great opportunity just to get a bit of his mindset in dentistry.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, that’s why I’ve obviously been shadowing and watching, a watcher, listener and learner of… when if first shadowed him at that time, he didn’t want to learn nothing about composites. He goes, “I haven’t got time for that, mate. I’m doing implants, I’m doing veneers, or ceramics”, and stuff like that. Now, doing loads of composite work.

Payman L:
Super flexible.

Danny Watson:
Yeah, he’s skilled as well. He’s a fast learner.

Payman L:
Definitely.

Danny Watson:
A fast learner.

Prav Solanki:
So Danny, your last day on the planet, mate. What three pieces of advice are you going to leave with the world?

Danny Watson:
Be around someone you really, really like. So it’s your last day, go and find them. As long as their around, obviously. Be around them. Keep your family as close as possible to you. Life’s too short to be arguing. The other thing is, always look at the positive side of every situation you’re in. Three.

Prav Solanki:
That’s beautiful. Thanks, Danny.

Danny Watson:
Cheers, guys.

Payman L:
That’s amazing. Thank you.

Outro Voice:
This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki:
Thank you for tuning in, guys, to the Dental Leaders podcast. Just got a little request to make, if you’ve got a suggestion of somebody else that we should be interviewing or somebody who’s got a really strong story, powerful story to share with us, please send us a message and help us connect with that individual so we can bring their story to the surface.

Payman L:
Thank you so much for taking the time, guys. If you got some value out of it think about sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the channel. Thank you guys.

Prav Solanki:
Don’t for get that six start review.

Transcript

Nairn Wilson:
So off I go, grumbling and groaning with a very unhappy wife and unhappy parents and child and all the rest, you can imagine. Bit of domestic tension. Off I go, do the business, get back to the airport, and the lady at the check-in counter looks at me and said “Well, Dr. Wilson,” they said, “we’re going to get you home fast because the company said you’re on Concord tonight.”

Intro Voice:
This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman L:
So today we’ve got Professor Nairn Wilson on the show. Thanks so much, Professor, for coming-

Nairn Wilson:
It’s a pleasure.

Payman L:
-to the studio. You’ve had a wonderful career, long and interesting career, the top of the profession, both in academia and teaching, all different things you’ve done. But I’d like to start with the backstory. Where were you born, what kind of childhood did you have?

Nairn Wilson:
I was born in a place called Kilmarnock in Scotland, 20 miles south of Glasgow. Father was a single-handed dental practitioner in the town, town of 40,000 people, four dentists, high levels of dental disease. So he did huge numbers of extractions, and when he came out of World War II, he brought with him two dental mechanics. So we had two dental mechanics-

Payman L:
On site?

Nairn Wilson:
On site, in the practise. He did three G.A. sessions a week with a consultant anaesthetist.

Payman L:
Whoa.

Nairn Wilson:
What could’ve called in the olden days a blood and vulcanite practise. So at any one time, he would’ve walked into, it wasn’t a laboratory, it was a workshop, there would be 20-30 sets of complete dentures being processed at some stage at any one time. So I started my first exposure to dentistry was as a young boy earning pocket money doing things like picking wax out of composition impression material-

Payman L:
You were really in it from the very beginning.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
Was it a foregone conclusion that you were going to study dentistry-

Nairn Wilson:
Nope.

Payman L:
Do you remember the time when you decided to do that?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, initially I thought it was going to be medicine. It was fashionable at the time to push through the educational system, so I got the exams necessary to get into university when I was 17, and I’d been pushed all the way and it was thought to be a very good … he’s done well, he’s getting GCS at 15, and Scotland hires around A-levels, at 17. So initially, I went for an interview for medicine at Glasgow University at 17 and a bit.

Prav Solanki:
Wow.

Nairn Wilson:
And they said “fine, come back next year.” And I thought “why, when you’ve been pushed through the education system?” There weren’t things like gap years then, and I wasn’t 18 and so on, so I did an extra year at school.

Prav Solanki:
Just mucking about, or … ?

Nairn Wilson:
No, no, well, I had to do something.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah.

Nairn Wilson:
And as a part of a challenge, somewhat, I suppose, in hindsight, naughtily, I entered myself for Oxford and Cambridge to do marine biology, because I was very much into biology, zoology, botany, et cetera. As I was quite relaxed about this, it wasn’t what I wanted to do, and I went to the interviews and so at Cambridge and I got in.

Prav Solanki:
Amazing.

Nairn Wilson:
But they were, it’s not what I wanted to do, and I’d just done it, really-

Payman L:
As a joke?

Nairn Wilson:
Well …

Payman L:
As a challenge.

Nairn Wilson:
As a challenge, yes. And the school I was at mortified, because not many people get into Oxford and Cambridge from up in Scotland.

Payman L:
Did you not consider it? I mean, did you not get seduced by the-

Nairn Wilson:
The atmosphere? No. It was around that time that people, my parents were a bit confused about what I was going to do, and I had to sort of take myself off and sort myself out. Came to the conclusion that It was going to be dentistry rather than medicine. So off I went to Edinburgh for an interview, got in there, and here we are 50 years later.

Payman L:
Were you top of your class in dental school?

Nairn Wilson:
Pretty much, won a few prizes. Never perfect, a theme that goes through my life. I like to … a discipline to reflect at the end of every day and just, there’s always, you could’ve done it better. Not bad, but could do things better. One of my thinking is, better than yesterday, but it’s going to be even better tomorrow. A lot of reflection, I think, is something that’s very good for a professional person to do.

Nairn Wilson:
It’s never perfect, and indeed, when I started training as a senior registrar, or registrar in restorative dentistry, my supervising consultant said to me “Go and do me a perfect bridge,” because we didn’t do implants at the time. “Do me a perfect bridge.” On the sixth one, I showed it to him, and like anything, if you look close enough, nothing’s perfect. The realisation, there’s always room for improvement, whatever you do, and I think it’s a good discipline, just at the end of the day, to reflect and say “not bad, but could do that a little better, how do I make it better? How can I get that tissue reaction, you know, really spot-on rather than a little bit inflamed or the contour right, et cetera?”

Nairn Wilson:
I apply that to many things I do in my life. And I think reflection, you know, constantly learning, and I often said to students, and I still say, if I talk to them, “it’s a bad day, even now, that I don’t learn something new about dentistry or see it in a different light from what I’ve done, or the penny suddenly drops and think, gosh, I’ve never really understood that or appreciated the subtly of something.”

Prav Solanki:
Just stepping back in time, earning your pocket money in your father’s practise, I remember earning my pocket money in my father’s corner shop by getting five-pound bags of spuds and delivering papers and stuff like that. But I never actually got paid any pocket money, it was just part and parcel of being the son of a shopkeeper.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki:
I put some serious hours in there, after school, before school, weekends. What was that like, growing up in that, how often were you in the practise, what were you doing, and how much did you learn hands-on at that time?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, quite a lot. I was typically in the practise two or three times a week. If I stayed on at school to play football or something, easy to go to my dad’s surgery and wait for him to finish and then get a lift home in the car. Or he, as many folks did, he worked Saturday mornings, and sometimes I’d go in with him on a Saturday morning and he would give me jobs to do. Or the mechanics would find something for me to do.

Nairn Wilson:
So I was typically in the practise two or three times a week, and got to know the mechanics and the workshop. Yeah, there was always things to be done, bits and pieces. But it’s, for a bit fun, I think I had a go at my first setup when I was about 12 or 13, yeah. Learned to do bits and pieces.

Payman L:
At least tell us that the dean of a dental school and the president of the GDC used to get drunk and do stupid things at university.

Nairn Wilson:
Of course I-

Payman L:
Thank God for that.

Nairn Wilson:
I had a great student life. Went to Edinburgh because didn’t want to live at home as a student and close to Glasgow. A lot of my friends went to Edinburgh, so I went to Edinburgh. A great place to be a student.

Payman L:
Great place, great city.

Nairn Wilson:
I had a fantastic student existence, maybe not look at now, but when I was younger I played a lot of sports, played rugby at a good quality standard. Played field hockey in the days you played on grass, not fancy artificial pitches where the ball bounced a lot around. And also played a lot of squash, played for a Scottish schoolboys for squash, played for the Scottish universities, for Scottish cap, for southwest Scotland for hockey.

Payman L:
I’m not hearing much about the drunken, stupid things.

Nairn Wilson:
Well, if you play a lot of rugby …

Payman L:
Yeah, yeah. Goes with it.

Nairn Wilson:
Goes with it. So no, I had a very, what I’d say, healthy and appropriate student life, good work-life balance. Worked hard, played hard.

Payman L:
And you were saying your dad was expecting you to come back and work with him.

Nairn Wilson:
When I got to fourth, fifth year, it dawned on him, because he was then 59 or something, wouldn’t this be a golden ticket if son came back, took the practise over, and gave opportunity … he could come in, tinker around, see his old patients, et cetera. And watching him work, and the nature of the practise, over time, he didn’t do quite so many extractions, so many complete dentures, but it was still a dominant feature, because the oral health in that part of the world was bad, and indeed, is not that good these days.

Nairn Wilson:
I thought, I cannot do this. I think it’s relevant to this day, I still take my hat off to GPs that go in the one room every day for six, seven, whatever hours. To me, it begins to feel a bit like a prison cell, in a way. You’re locked in that room and doing the same thing. I love clinical dentistry, or I loved it when I did it. But doing it and nothing else, day in, day out, in the one place scared me a little bit, I think.

Payman L:
I can understand that.

Nairn Wilson:
One of the most difficult conversations I had in my life was saying to my father, “Dad, I’m not going to do this.”

Prav Solanki:
Tell us a bit more about, just … I think about difficult conversations, was asking my father-in-law for my wife’s hand in marriage, right?

Nairn Wilson:
That was a difficult one too, yeah.

Prav Solanki:
Terrified. Just talk us through that conversation, the build-up to it-

Payman L:
Was he disappointed?

Prav Solanki:
Did you have the conversation with yourself a few times?

Nairn Wilson:
I think I’d made my mind up several weeks before it came up, but he increasingly was sharing with friends and colleagues, “oh, it’s great, Nairn’s going to graduate in a year’s time and, you know, I’m going to be semi-retired and he’s going to take the practise over and it’s all going to be very different.” I just, I had to, when I was back home from university, I said “hey, Dad, we got to sit down and talk,” you know.

Nairn Wilson:
Early one evening, charged his glass and my glass, we sat down and I said, just had to come out front with it, saying “I’ve been giving this a lot of thought. I’m sorry, I can’t do this.” He was saddened, I think, and a bit upset with me because it was a good-going practise, it was a meal ticket for life, almost, you know? It wasn’t a bad place to live, I could have a good, steady income, et cetera, et cetera.

Nairn Wilson:
He said, “what are you going to do?”, and he was even more upset when I said “I really don’t know.”

Payman L:
“Not this.”

Nairn Wilson:
Not this. I suppose that didn’t sit very well very comfortably, that I didn’t say, you know, something …

Payman L:
Did you have ambitions of seeing the big, wide world, that sort of thing? Like, leaving home? Was that part of it?

Nairn Wilson:
Nope. In fact, when I graduated, I was delighted, obviously, to graduate, but at the same time, I thought, gosh, what am I going to do? Because I don’t want to go into practise like Dad or whatever. What are the options? And there weren’t so many options back then in the 1970s, early 1970s. So went for one of the old-style house jobs, stayed in Edinburgh, hoping that it would be clear if I hung around, did one of these house jobs, that some future would start, I would see doors I might want to go and open and have a look in and see what was there.

Payman L:
Probably a good idea.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah. Well, it’s fortunate it worked for me, because during the course of the year, opportunity came my way and somebody in the dental hospital in Edinburgh, bit of a midlife crisis or something happened, I don’t know precisely, and the dean came to me and said “this person’s gone off for six months, would you like to be a temporary demonstrator, role of the house officer?” Oh, interesting, a bit of teaching, and won’t be seeing patients day in, day out, I get a bit of variety of stuff that I do. That appealed to me. And I get a handsome increase in salary from 850 pounds a year to 1,500, and bought a new car and I spent a bit.

Prav Solanki:
What was the car?

Nairn Wilson:
A brand-new Mini. Terracotta orange.

Prav Solanki:
Terracotta …

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, pride and joy.

Payman L:
What about your peers? Most of them were in practise at this point.

Nairn Wilson:
Yep.

Payman L:
How much were they earning?

Nairn Wilson:
Oh, quite a lot, because people in Scotland, given the disease, if you could keep working and put the hours in, you could earn a whole lot of money-

Payman L:
Yeah, so Prof, what was it about you that made you think, I’m not going to go for the cash, I’m going to go for the interest? Have you always been that person?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, I don’t know when I learned it, but it’s certainly something that, even then, and has stayed with me, money doesn’t necessarily buy you happiness.

Payman L:
That’s for sure.

Prav Solanki:
For sure.

Nairn Wilson:
It’s not everything in life. It’s nice to have money, and not to be short of it and be able to pay for the mortgage and so on, but it’s also good to, you know, feel you’re happy, and professional fulfilment in what you do and that you’re content. So again, the work-life balance philosophy and yes, of not, I suppose, a fear of ending up doing a lot of repetitive things. I like challenges, I like doing new things, different things. Again, as we talked about, my dad, a little bit of a fear of ending up being “here, just do this.” I wouldn’t want to be into automatic pilot, doing-

Payman L:
It shows an ambition of a young age.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah, because Dad’s practise would’ve brought wealth.

Nairn Wilson:
A very comfortable middle-class existence, it was never wealthy.

Prav Solanki:
No, but at that stage-

Nairn Wilson:
Oh, it was a very comfortable existence, there’d be no problem, yeah.

Prav Solanki:
But you chose a different route.

Nairn Wilson:
And some uncertainty, and to a certain extent, yes, I thrive a little bit on some uncertainty.

Payman L:
Well, you must do, you must do to do all the things that you’ve done, to jump between the things you’ve jumped between.

Nairn Wilson:
Yep.

Payman L:
You must be comfortable in, I mean, I’m not going to call you an adrenaline junkie in that sense, but nonetheless, most people are very scared of change. What is it about you that means that you’re not?

Nairn Wilson:
I don’t know what it’s about me specifically, but I’m honest enough, as I do reflect about myself-

Payman L:
Do you keep a diary?

Nairn Wilson:
Nope. It’s all up here in the brain.

Prav Solanki:
Do you have a time of day that you do it, or a place you go to or-

Nairn Wilson:
No, no, just the usual evening time, just sit down, quiet, usually watch a bit of telly or read a book or just sit, look out the window for 15 minutes, just reflect on the day and think about tomorrow.

Payman L:
So how did the academic career go after that? You got the demonstrator job-

Nairn Wilson:
Yep.

Payman L:
Did you climb up the …

Nairn Wilson:
The guy who went off on the time-out, whatever it was, his problem, he didn’t come back, so I became a permanent demonstrator.

Prav Solanki:
What does a demonstrator do?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, it was a bit like a visiting practitioner, supervise clinics and did the odd tutorial.

Prav Solanki:
Uh-huh. Teaching undergrads.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, looking after undergraduates, and also some teaching of things, like dental nurses. Weren’t enough hygienists and therapists at the time, did a little bit of training, dental technologists-

Payman L:
Any research side, or-

Nairn Wilson:
Yep, because when I was in that that job, I did a project that, to this day, I’m really proud of, it was a great project. When I was house officer, one of the things I had to do, we were very close to Edinburgh Royal Infirmary, and they used to phone up the dental hospital and say “we got a patient in ward 10 in whatever with a problem, can somebody come over and fix him out?”

Nairn Wilson:
So I was in and out this hospital a bit, and look at all these patients, a lot of trouble, as is often the case with people who have been in hospital for a while, nurses who, through ignorance, never thought brushing their teeth. Horror stories in wards full of very old people, all the dentures getting cleaned in one big bowl and just grab for the best-fitting dentures, you know.

Nairn Wilson:
Yes, so I took it upon myself, in one weekend, I went and I did an oral examination of every patient in the hospital, just a snapshot, and including the people who come in in Casualty and so on. So I worked the 72 hours straight, you know-

Prav Solanki:
Just off your own back?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, it was well-planned. I had to design a sort of questionnaire thing, and I picked up several oral cancers.

Prav Solanki:
Whoa.

Nairn Wilson:
A whole lot of candida, because people are on drugs and things. Lots of people were sitting there, in pain and discomfort and saying, “well, I’ve got to wait till out of here.” And you say, “have you said anything?” And they said, “Well, no, I mean, these people can’t do anything, I need to see a dentist.” And these was just loads of pathology-

Payman L:
Interesting.

Nairn Wilson:
So I published it, and I’m not sure it’s ever been done again, but it’s a really interesting thing to do. So that was one of my first research papers, I did that. And it gave me, of course, a big buzz, the first time you get a paper published and so on.

Prav Solanki:
How old were you then?

Nairn Wilson:
Oh, I was 24, five. At dental school. Typical path, go to dental school 18, five years, 23, so I was 24. 24, 25 at the time, something of that sort.

Payman L:
And then you progressed?

Nairn Wilson:
I like to say I was headhunted to get out to Manchester. An external examiner, man called Professor Nixon, who’s a prof of conservative dentistry in Manchester. I like to think he saw me as some opportunity, and Manchester’s a place I’d never visited. Driven past it going south, and I thought I was just going for a few years, because he and Manchester have a reputation of getting people pretty quickly processed through master’s and PhD degrees, which Edinburgh wasn’t. Much more clinical.

Nairn Wilson:
So I’ll go to Manchester for a few years, come back triumphant with master’s degree, PhD, maybe get a senior job back up in Scotland.

Payman L:
Yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki:
Mm-hmm.

Nairn Wilson:
So off I go to Manchester, and bit of a shock to the system, from Edinburgh to Manchester. But it was good, and 27 years in Manchester.

Payman L:
Wow.

Nairn Wilson:
I started off junior lecturer, ended up, had been dean of the dental school, ended up pro-vice-chancellor of the university.

Payman L:
And you still live up there, right?

Nairn Wilson:
We live in Cheshire, in Alderley Edge. Yeah.

Payman L:
Climbing up the academic ladder-

Nairn Wilson:
Greasy pole, I think.

Payman L:
I don’t know anything about it, but obviously you’ve got to be good with people.

Nairn Wilson:
Well, I like to think you have to have a lot of skills.

Payman L:
Yeah.

Nairn Wilson:
I’ve always been a strong believer, up until and including the time I was dean at King’s, I believe that clinical practise, teaching and research, all have to go hand-in-hand. They all live off each other. Indeed, when I was dean at King’s, I was often quoted back in saying “I don’t think an academic can teach their way out of research or research their way out of teaching.” You’ve got to do both.

Payman L:
As far as leadership, I mean, you’ve taken so many leadership roles, what would be your, you know, Sir Alex Ferguson that teaches corporate people about leadership now? What are some of your top tips?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, got the leadership bug, or I was encouraged, talked about it, my secondment into dental industry. I had to assume a lot of leadership-

Payman L:
When did this happen? From Manchester?

Nairn Wilson:
From Manchester, when I was about 27, so two years into Manchester. The same man headhunted me, Professor Nixon, was a great golf player, and you get a phone call from ICI, out of Alderley Edge, south of Manchester, to say “I’ve had this strange phone call, these people out of ICI who are into heart drugs, but they also produce lots of paints and adhesives”-

Prav Solanki:
It was the biggest chemical company in the U.K., wasn’t it?

Nairn Wilson:
That’s right. So they just had to get some questions about dentistry, “I’m sure you can handle it, and I’m bound to give you a nice lunch or whatever.” He said, “if I didn’t have a tee-off in the golf course at 2:00, I would go myself, but off you go,” because these days, typically students didn’t work Wednesday afternoons. Gave up opportunity to research, to go to ICI, no idea what was going to happen.

Nairn Wilson:
Put into a room with four other people, chemists and so on, a marketing person introduced herself, didn’t know why we were there. And a director of ICI Pharmaceuticals came in and he said, “Gentlemen … ” No ladies, I’m afraid, it was five guys. He said “we got a fancy of adhesives and abrasives and everything, we think we could use a lot of patents and so on to develop a dental business. Would you like to do it?”

Payman L:
As unspecific as that?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
Amazing.

Prav Solanki:
Didn’t know what you were going on for.

Nairn Wilson:
Nope.

Payman L:
They didn’t even know what they were going for.

Nairn Wilson:
No, nothing specific. And a large amount of money in the bank.

Payman L:
Do you remember how much it was?

Nairn Wilson:
10 million.

Payman L:
Back then?

Nairn Wilson:
Back then.

Payman L:
Wow.

Nairn Wilson:
10 million. Big pharmaceutical company, to them, they worked-

Payman L:
Drop in the ocean.

Nairn Wilson:
-billions for hard drugs and so on. And so they thought 10 million was a very modest … if you’re going to develop a new hard drug, you’d probably put 100 million in the bank, you know, back then. So a bit of an experiment. We introduced ourselves again, and we agreed, I was the only clinician, and went back to see my professor the next day, and I said “Got a deal for you.” I said, you know, “They want to look around and see if we’ve got things that could be applied in dentistry. They’re going to give you one and a half times my salary so you can employee somebody to replace me, plus you get half a salary free.”

Payman L:
Did you negotiate that, or was that something they just said they’re going to do?

Nairn Wilson:
No, I was quick off the mark. I thought it was a very good deal. So I was seconded, and we started, the first thing was Corsodyl mouthwash, because they had Hibiscrub hand wash, and they’d been through all the toxicology and everything, so it was safe for clinical use and so on, and the chlorhexidine. So it was very quick to make Corsodyl mouthwash, and that was our first entry into the market.

Prav Solanki:
Whoa.

Nairn Wilson:
And then we looked around, and we thought a big challenge was tooth-colour filling materials, all in traditional amalgam, and gold was used still quite a bit in that time. We set that as a long-term goal, and the other thing was, well, it’s messy, mixing up two pastes and stuff, there must be a better way of doing this. We looked at all sort of patents and so on, and we found a light-curing patent, which originally was going to be for car paint. Bit of a story there.

Payman L:
Were they already using it for car paint and just had the patent?

Nairn Wilson:
They had the patent and were using it for one or two interesting things, like fibre optics, because, to make a fibre optic cable, and if you wanted to have a specific shape or get around corners and stuff, thing was, you dipped the fibres in the magic glue, the light-curing glue, and you bent it into the shape you wanted, put in the case, set it, and then you just put light through it. Boom, and it’s set in the shape you wanted it.

Payman L:
Oh, right.

Nairn Wilson:
So you could have bizarre things and shapes and so on, of light-conducting cable, that had high efficiency, that most of the light went in, came out the other end.

Payman L:
So for younger dentists, before light-curing came along, you used to mix two pastes and you had, it was like, working time-

Prav Solanki:
resin or something.

Nairn Wilson:
No, no, it’s two pastes. Two pastes, and the big problem with that was that however you mixed it, being viscous, you always incorporate lots and lots of air.

Payman L:
Yeah.

Nairn Wilson:
So if you mixed up a composite, two-paste composite, and then let it cure a section and looked at it, it was like an Aero bar inside. It was full of air bubbles, which is not good. It makes it opaque, because of the air bubbles, and it doesn’t have the same light properties. And it adversely affects the properties and of course the bubbles, they fill up with fluid and then you get all sort of other things happen, like discoloration and so on.

Nairn Wilson:
Well, it wasn’t completely novel, because I had been UV, ultraviolet, curing, a system called NUVA-Fill, which is used for fixer sealants, and they did have early forms of veneers as well, material, but it was discredited because UV light was seen to be potentially hazardous to fingers and so on, potentially carcinogenic effect. So UV light went, so the concept of a single paste and light-curing, or curing by light, was not entirely novel, but the visible light-curing was new.

Payman L:
So the first time that you saw that, I guess you had … did you think, did you understand the magnitude of the-

Nairn Wilson:
Oh, yes. Instantly. I had used the NUVA-fill stuff, so I knew it, when you were sculpting bigger composites like a class four on a fractured incisor, rather than having a celluloid crown form with a two-paste material that was rapidly setting on you, you had to shove it in place very quick, you had some time. The concept of what was then, we referred to it as “command set.”

Prav Solanki:
“Command set,” yeah.

Nairn Wilson:
It wasn’t quite that, because it was setting under the operating light until we get orange ping-pong bats and things to help slow it down. But it was a lot longer than we had with the chemically curing materials, and of course you could see the advantage.

Payman L:
And where did it go from there? You did this in the lab, how long does it take from that moment of breakthrough in a lab until it becomes a product?

Nairn Wilson:
Again, unbelievable in this day and age: from laboratory to on-the-market materials, 18 months.

Prav Solanki:
Wow.

Nairn Wilson:
And we worked night and day to get the formulation right, do early clinical trials, get it refined, initially just one colour, because we’re first in with shaded composites; that came down the line just a little bit later. But that was another, that was a first for us.

Payman L:
That was an ICI product, was it?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah. On the back of the first one. The material called Opalux. So I’ll tell you how we did that, if you want. We got the time.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah, yeah.

Nairn Wilson:
Anyway, back to the initial material, Fotofill. Single colour, one paste, came in pots initially, because we couldn’t get this sticky stuff into syringes, couldn’t find it until, by chance, I went on a flight over to America to go to the FDA to justify the stuff getting a licence to sell in North America. On the way back, sat down on the plane beside a man who was into syringe technology.

Payman L:
Crazy, isn’t it.

Nairn Wilson:
And was just started talking, and I said “that’s really interesting, I’ve got a problem. I’ve got this really sticky, viscous material I want to put in a syringe, rather than having a tub, because if you lift the lid off the tub, the whole tub set, yeah. It’s a real problem.” So he said, “I can do that.” Made that man a fortune, because he had the patent on syringes for composites.

Prav Solanki:
What are the chances, eh?

Nairn Wilson:
We stayed up all night on the night flight, we drank rather a lot, too. But by the time we got off the plane, we had all sorts of bits of paper with, you know, he said “this is how you do it, you need this sort of taper and a screw thing on it.”

Prav Solanki:
Amazing.

Payman L:
What about personally, for you? Was there some royalty in it for you?

Nairn Wilson:
Nope. Thankfully, I stayed seconded, I didn’t, I was asked if I want to make, go in and work for ICI as time went by. I resisted that, and

Nairn Wilson:
thankfully I did. The way the story ended, because almost seven years to date we had done the light curing, we went on to do more sophisticated composites out of a material called Opalux, which is the first shady composite, four shades. And that was done, I did a study, I went one of my practise-based studies, I get whole other dentists to collect the body shade for, then porcelain jacket crowns. And I collected the shades and praxis for 10,000 crowns and I quickly found out that 90% of crowns were on four shades. A two, a three and a half. You probably know.

Payman L:
The ones we know.

Nairn Wilson:
The ones you know, and that was four shades of the composite because 90% of crowns were these four shades.

Payman L:
Composite was purely for anterior at that point?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, we started and we moved on a classic material called occlusion for use on posterior teeth and to a lot of grief about that because the initial attempts of using composites on posterior teeth were disastrous.

Payman L:
Yeah, I bet.

Nairn Wilson:
Because it was an old style two paste material called Adaptic that was tried and it wore very quickly and it leaked because we didn’t have, you barely had enamel bonding. We certainly didn’t have any adhesive bonding at that time because the first, like your composites, we placed no bonding at all.

Payman L:
No bonding at all?

Nairn Wilson:
No, I didn’t know about it yet. Acid etching was just for efficiency. It’s not for you.

Payman L:
Oh, really?

Nairn Wilson:
We introduced that as well.

Payman L:
Oh really?

Nairn Wilson:
Opalux has had acid etch with it, but not the original photo fill, but we get into occlusion and other materials are still here and today. Lovely story about the braces strip Epictechs, that was an ICI abrasive paper.

Payman L:
What were they using it for?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, I saw at one lunch break, I was walking around, beautiful summer’s day out at Macclesfield where they had the production facility and I walked past and that that was a time car bodies rusted a lot and one of the things you had to do was fill it and you filled holes in your car body, you’re usually the wings up at the top of the wheel arches, you’re rusty through. And there’s this technician finishing off sanding down a patch he had put in the wing of his car and it looked beautiful, great finish. I said, “What’s that material you’re using?” And he said, “This is this stuff at the skip at the back.” He says, “Great for this.” Great finish to the fibreglass, they filler he used. Round to the skip at the bank and here it is and took it back to the office and put it through a shredder. And all we had to do is make it waterproof. That was Fabutex.

Payman L:
That’s it? Amazing.

Nairn Wilson:
That was Fabutex. It’s a fantastic technology and it’s still the same stuff today.

Payman L:
I love that.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, it’s lovely. Did that and We bought a company in the States, we bought Co because, as things still are today, it’s difficult to sell products in North America that aren’t made in North America, to import stuff. And they’re not impressed by made in the UK, regrettably. Well, they haven’t got that message. We bought this, what was very much a family business and a very well known name in dentistry in North America and elsewhere in the world. Things like Copack for Perio Surgery and stuff. We bought Co and we shipped the material out there, made in the UK and we put labels on the syringes and we sold it North America.

Payman L:
Just to make it look American.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah. As many people did with UK products. Bought a company within all that.

Payman L:
Prof, this all sounds so exciting. Why were you not seduced by it to the extent that you actually decided to go into…

Prav Solanki:
Industry.

Payman L:
Industry instead of… Because you loved clinical so much?

Nairn Wilson:
I love clinical. I loved my teaching. I like doing research and a lot of research I couldn’t publish because it was commercially sensitive and that frustrated me and it came to an end that we had spent a lot of time in Japan. A lot of our materials were picked up and used and did the Opalux material. I said it was difficult to supply the Japanese market, was so successful with the factory working seven days a week just to satisfy the Japanese market and there was frustration in Europe that we couldn’t produce enough to sell it elsewhere.

Payman L:
That’s a good problem to have.

Nairn Wilson:
Isn’t that a nice problem? I spent a lot of time and it was through GC and GC offered parent company ICI a price they couldn’t refuse. And as I said, almost seven years today, same five people in the room asked down to London with their spouses, partners and a guy came in and he said, “We’ve looked at you with amazement. You put the money in bank.” The last year we made a clear 5 million profit. We’d paid for Co and paid everything up and they said, “We’re selling out to these Japanese people. You have a great night.”

Prav Solanki:
That was it?

Nairn Wilson:
Last day we put the light off. Yeah. That was it. Thankfully I could go back to the university and pick up my academic life again.

Prav Solanki:
Just putting all this into context while she was the ICI, where did everything else fit in, wife, kids, family? Had that come along at that time?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki:
What was the dynamic, the balance, the work life?

Nairn Wilson:
Very difficult and part of the reason I didn’t go into this stream because you were very much owned by the company and I think it’s summed up one story, a child’s fifth birthday or something. Organised my parents to come down from Scotland for the birthday party, et cetera. They’re coming in Friday, the birthday party is on Saturday sort of thing.

Prav Solanki:
Everyone’s excited.

Nairn Wilson:
Everyone’s excited. Phone call on Wednesday night, “You’re going to America tomorrow.” There’s a meeting at the FDA or something, another licence this year or something. And very often the trips were there and back just to go for a meeting or whatever. Yeah. I said, “No, I’m not. Family coming down. Birthday party. All organised.” A little pause at the end of the phone and they said, “No, you are on the plane tomorrow at 10 o’clock.” They weren’t heartless because the story ends well. Off I go grumbling and groaning with a very unhappy wife and unhappy parents and child and all the rest. You can imagine. Bit of domestic tension. Off I go, do the business, get back to the airport and the lady at the check in counter looks at me and said, “Well Dr. Wilson,” he said, “We’re going to get home fast because the company had said you’re on Concord tonight.”

Nairn Wilson:
I made a home for the birthday party. It wasn’t all heartless, but you…

Payman L:
You didn’t appreciate being owned by them.

Nairn Wilson:
When they said jump, it was, “How high?”

Prav Solanki:
How high?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah.

Prav Solanki:
Typically, what sort of hours were you doing? How much home time, weekend time, that sort of, just paint us a picture of that.

Nairn Wilson:
A lot of work. Because it was really exciting and it was busy in buzzy and a lot of travel and so on. Wife who had her own career, she was on the way to be, did PhD clinical training. She ended up consulting restorative dentistry in Manchester, so she had her own career and she largely brought up the kids. She was the linchpin at home and driving her career as well. A lot of pressure on her. Yeah. It was difficult, but a lot of working, wee small hours and all sorts of things.

Payman L:
When something suddenly takes off though, that’s the way it is. I mean, it doesn’t matter what you do.

Nairn Wilson:
And there it was at such pace and it was so exciting. As I said, the first probably 18 months from-

Prav Solanki:
That’s amazing.

Payman L:
Did you bring in more dentists, more clinical people?

Nairn Wilson:
Oh, yes. People like professor Trevor Burke. He was a practitioner in Manchester. Trevor did a lot of initial handling and testing and did clinic cases for us for brochures and stuff. People like Trevor were, yes, a lot of people willing to-

Payman L:
Yeah, it was growing? Everything was growing, right?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very quick. Yeah.

Payman L:
Then when you got back to academia, did you go straight from industry to senior academic or…

Nairn Wilson:
Pretty much. By then, I was a senior lecture consultant because I’d got that when I was doing this stuff at, did all that, finished my training and so on. And I rather cheekily applied for a chair at Conserve the Dentistry in Bristol. I was delighted to get an interview and I thought, “Great.” I mean, that just to put in my CV that I’d been invited for an interview for a chair I thought was an achievement. Yeah. I went down there and they had had somebody in mind a long time and the Dean at the time was Crispin Scully who came to Eastman. He was the Dean and I started the interview and I said, “I don’t want the job you’ve advertised. I’m a restorative dentist,” because there were just cones they were advertising for and their professor of prostetic dentistry was retiring next year and they had nobody in dental materials and I said, “I want to come and be your professor of restorative dentistry, including dental materials.” And when this professor retires next year we’ll hire maybe at material scientists or something different. Yeah?

Nairn Wilson:
But I wanted to do whole of restorative dentistry. The interview went a long time. Didn’t quite make it. I think they kept interviewing me until I blew it somewhere along the line, as I was whole young and inexperienced, but on the back of that, I went back to Manchester. The person who had headhunted me, he had taken early retirement and the chair had been sat vacant for a while and the message get back to Manchester that I had done fairly well this interview, although, and they decided they would open up the chair and Manchester again and I was given that and I was 36.

Payman L:
Wow.

Prav Solanki:
Amazing.

Payman L:
What did your peers think about that?

Nairn Wilson:
Disbelief from a lot of people.

Payman L:
It’s a bit young, isn’t it?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Some young people were very encouraged thinking that there was hope after all that-

Prav Solanki:
Inspiration.

Nairn Wilson:
If you work at it and you do the right things, you can get recognised. It happens. It’s not dead men’s shoes forever and a day or waiting and waiting and Buggins turn and stuff. But the first five years as a professor is very difficult. Every time I stood up to speak at conferences and things, “We’ll put this young man back in his box,” and yeah.

Prav Solanki:
Much heckling?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah?

Nairn Wilson:
Fair bit of, but just weather the storm.

Prav Solanki:
I think anytime your progress in any field is exponential, people are going to say something, aren’t they? The way life works out.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, yeah.

Payman L:
Prof, do you feel like when you see someone who’s going up that ladder now, can you spot the ones who are going to make it to the top?

Nairn Wilson:
Yep. And it’s a hell of a thing to do because all the clinical training, PhDs, publishing papers, getting grants, supervising students-

Payman L:
It’s years and years and years of dedication.

Nairn Wilson:
I’m honest enough to admit it’s probably tougher than when it happened to me. Physically, I don’t think he could jump through all the hoops and be ready in time. The number of hoops that there now are. It was probably easier for me, there were fewer hoops to jump through just to be eligible and to get where I got to, but it’s a big commitment. Why subject yourself to all this when there’s an increasing opportunity, if you’re good clinically, growth in non-NHS, private dentistry, if you’re really good and you know your stuff. It’s very tempting. Why should I subject myself to, because you live by publications and, “Where’s my next grant coming from and where’s my next PhD students?” And universities are pretty tough about it. Yeah.

Payman L:
What about at the undergrad level? Can you spot a undergrad who is going to go far?

Nairn Wilson:
Yep. Always used to say, you’ve going to class full of people, the first time they see phantom heads and clinical simulation areas and so on, you wander around. You can pick out five or 10 students in a year of 100 or 150 that are going to be a bit more trouble than the others. Yeah. Are going to be some TLC along the way. Yeah.

Payman L:
And the talented ones too?

Nairn Wilson:
Yes, you pick them out fairly quickly.

Payman L:
How much of dentistry do you think is talent based and how much is hard work-based or is that a silly question?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, I always say we give up any, in interviewing dental students, any sort of manual test, et cetera.

Payman L:
Really?

Nairn Wilson:
Just no correlation at all between carving bits of wax or bending bits of wire or whatever and outcome in terms of who gets through the finals exam or who goes on to be a good dentist. No correlation at all. Within the range of normality, yes, people can become good as a matter of practise and commitment, of course. A lot of people fell beside the wayside, were in the wrong place. Didn’t have the commitment for dentistry. Their heart wasn’t in it and maybe they’d been wrongly advised or misunderstood. Many young people who had only ever had orthodontics and then suddenly realising that dentistry is about lots of filling your teeth. 70% of the time, what do dentist do? Fill teeth. Fill and repair teeth. So many people who didn’t make the course, it was more because their heart wasn’t in it and unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time or…

Prav Solanki:
My memory of of the Dean when I was at university was getting sent to see him.

Nairn Wilson:
To be congratulated, was it?

Prav Solanki:
Unfortunately not, no.

Payman L:
I thought you were top of your class and all that?

Prav Solanki:
But it wasn’t for that. Was nothing to do with that. Extracurricular activity should we say. What’s the craziest thing that somebody has been sent to see you about?

Payman L:
Good question.

Nairn Wilson:
Well…

Payman L:
Can I get this one on video?

Nairn Wilson:
Yes.

Payman L:
Go on, prof.

Nairn Wilson:
No, I think one of the funniest ones was, not long at King’s and students had a ball and they decided they were going to have it at the war museum in London. And as these events are, there was a bit of boisterous activity and a bit of drink taking, et cetera and somebody managed to break the top or the lid off a Sherman tank. And before the curator of the war museum got to me, the student dragged himself out of bed with a bad hangover and thought he’d better come and tell me about it before I get the phone call. This rather sheepish looking, hung over student in my office at half past eight the next morning explaining to me that there’s going to be a bit of a problem because not only had they broken it off, but they’d taken it home. The other two-

Payman L:
Oh my God.

Nairn Wilson:
Thought it was a great souvenir for the ball. Great trophy.

Prav Solanki:
Sounds about right.

Nairn Wilson:
We had to both return top off the Sherman tank and to get some specialty welder man in at some cost to repair the lid on the Sherman tank.

Payman L:
That’s pretty good one.

Prav Solanki:
That’s a really good one, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you keep a straight face throughout that whole-

Nairn Wilson:
No. It was difficult. Having done one or two things my time, I can understand how these things happen and pretty good to break a tank.

Prav Solanki:
It’s a good effort.

Payman L:
You went from there to being president of the GDC?

Nairn Wilson:
No, no.

Payman L:
President’s wrong word?

Nairn Wilson:
No, no. President of the GDC came ’97. I was still in Manchester. I was pro vice chancellor by that time and again, the norm had been somebody at or about to retire, to be president the GDC who was always had been a really senior person who, at the time, Deans of dental school were on the GDC. When a Dean at Manchester had been on the GDC for four or five years because I’ve been Dean at Manchester, so I was on the GDC as a member. And Sunday before the election for the new president, which took place on the Friday, one of the members phoned me up and said, “With all the things that have to happen in a way of getting into lifelong, sorting out the dental team and various other things, there’s a group of us who really think a younger person ought to do this rather than more of the same with an older person.

Nairn Wilson:
Took myself off for a long walk Sunday afternoon and talked to the family about it because at the time it was a big commitment. It was typically three, four days a week in London, the way it was run at that time, old style dental council, 52 people, et cetera and the president chaired all the conduct committees and so on. Big commitment. The big problem was, well, if I stood back I’d only be 52. It’s five years, no renewal. A one off appointment. If I do it, what do I do afterwards? Typically, if it doesn’t go well…

Prav Solanki:
Am I right in understanding you were invited to apply?

Nairn Wilson:
Encouraged-

Prav Solanki:
Headhunted?

Nairn Wilson:
Encouraged by other members to put my name forward at the last minute. It was pretty much, almost a coronation, going to be a coronation for an older person until this splinter group approached me and said, “Will you put your name forward?”

Payman L:
This is before DCPs had to be registered?

Nairn Wilson:
Oh yes, yes, yes.

Payman L:
Did you bring that in?

Nairn Wilson:
Part of it. Dean Margaret Seaward started the process, but it was a long drawn out process because you had to change the dentist act and so on, but I introduced a specialist’s list, largely did all the ground work for the CPD stuff, a lifelong learning with my successor Hugh Matheson and similarly with the DCPs and so on. A lot of the groundwork was done during the time I was president.

Payman L:
What’s your view of the situation with the GDC now?

Nairn Wilson:
Look back in sadness in a way. I think it lost its way. I think it’s working hard to try and come back. I think there’s some improvement in the last year or two, which is great.

Payman L:
But what went wrong?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, I always described it, saying, when I was president of the GDC, it was like walking a tight rope. If you lent too much towards the profession it was protectionism. If you lent too much towards the patient, although you were there primarily to protect the patients, you were effectively policing the profession. See, I think that’s a very delicate balance. I liked the straddling for the GDC when I was there, was protecting the patients. That’s our regulator. They are first and foremost to do, protect the patient, but the second half was supporting the profession. Protecting patients, supporting the profession.

Nairn Wilson:
And when I was president of GDC I did things like I went and did a lot of lecturing sections and branches of the BDA and all sorts of things all over the country because it’s UK wide. Now, always used to start and say, “Come here first, congratulate you all. 99 point something percent of you are hardworking, ethical dentists and I’m here to ask you for your support to help find the colleagues who have lost their way or in problems or whatever and I can keep your registration fee down as well.” And relating to the profession and working with them to encourage, because I was under no illusions at that time. I was also the custodian of professionalism for their profession. What is lost at GDC became much more of policing the profession and they gave up looking after the professionalism element, in my mind, and they’d became-

Payman L:
But why? How? More lay members came in.

Nairn Wilson:
I wouldn’t blame it on the lay members.

Payman L:
Dental law partnership might have something to do with it.

Nairn Wilson:
Could well do. A combination of things probably.

Payman L:
Perfect storm sort of thing.

Nairn Wilson:
And of course after, not so much in dentistry, all the things that happen in medicine, the scandals about-

Payman L:
Shipman.

Nairn Wilson:
Shipman and BB Heart Surgery and pathologists doing things, keeping people’s brains in Liverpool and all sorts of things.

Payman L:
For me, I think the patient is in the worst situation now than they were 10 years ago.

Nairn Wilson:
I maintain that as well. I don’t think they’re in a better place. I think because a lot of dentists admit as in medicine, as in other regulated healthcare practise, a lot of defensive medicine, stroke dentistry and is that in the best interest of patients? Because you hear sad stories of colleagues, not necessarily just young colleagues confronted with a patient needs molar endo, they look at it and if it’s not dead straight root canals or readily accessible to say either, “Have you got the money to go and see a specialist endodontist?” Or, “I’ll take the tooth out for you.”

Nairn Wilson:
Where my day when you were judged at the GDC of doing things a reasonable body of dentists would do or having a reasonable body of dentists would achieve with that root filling, they might no get a perfect root filling, but to my mind, if the dentist root-filled the tooth and kept in your mouth for 10, 15 years before it wasn’t a perfect root fillings, something did go wrong. But to give the patient 10 or 15 years might well have been able to be retreated or before it was extracted. But now, frightened to do that-

Payman L:
And the man in the street hasn’t got 1,000 pounds for a tooth. That’s the sad situation we’re in.

Nairn Wilson:
And given the choice, rather than have it taken out because I don’t have 1,000 pounds, would you like a dentist to give it his best shot?

Payman L:
Yeah, exactly.

Prav Solanki:
Hold onto it for a bit longer.

Nairn Wilson:
10 years down the line I might go wrong and you might need to have it out then or you might need to then go and see a specialist or have a bit of surgery or something. I know I would want. A combination of things and I think a lot of people who fell foul of the GDC and what, when we look back in history, what we’ve seen in a dark period and it’s time, you were judged by specialists and so on rather than by other practising dentists to say, “Actually typical dentist, that’s no bad, actually.” That’s pretty much what most people achieve and judged by peers, genuine peers rather than by absolute standards et cetera.

Nairn Wilson:
A combination things are lost I think. I think they were trying and the people there present are trying to bring it back a little bit. I personally still think it’s unfortunate that the chair, no longer a president, is not a dentist. I personally think it would be better and I think there are plenty of people in dentistry who would have the skills and capabilities to head up the GDC. I think we’ve got people in the profession who could do that job. That’s a personal view, but I think it was unfortunate.

Nairn Wilson:
A lot of pressures and other health care because of all the Shipmans and stuff, the concerns the professions we’re covering these things up are not capable of finding the Shimpans and so on that healthcare regulation changed. But as you said, was the patient better off for it? I’m not convinced.

Payman L:
Yeah, me neither.

Nairn Wilson:
There has been a price to pay for it and it’s a long way back and it’s really sad. Young colleagues frightened of the GDC.

Prav Solanki:
Terrified.

Nairn Wilson:
Terrified.

Payman L:
That’s the number one thing on their mind. The number one thing when you talk to a young dentist.

Nairn Wilson:
You shouldn’t be, a regulator. You should be there to facilitate good things happening to patients. Yeah.

Payman L:
Prof, there would be no, going to where we are, we were talking to Tif Qureshi about it as well. He was saying there’s no way he would have tried doing some of the things he did. There would be no Enlighten, we wouldn’t have tried different types of protocols and things if we were all sitting there scared of this regulator the whole time. Let alone day to day, all the pain that’s going out there for dentists everyday.

Nairn Wilson:
As I said, it’s a delicate balance. You shouldn’t be cavalier and patients are not Guinea pigs. You shouldn’t be doing crazy experiments on patients. That’s wrong. But within things, I always believe, could you stand up and justify what you’re going to do? If you could reasonably justify and other similar general dental practise to say, “Under those circumstances, yeah, I did. Rather than take the tooth out or tried this or done this and tried to save it in the knowledge that it might not work or whatever.” But now, of course, young people scared of the GDC and they just take the tooth out or refer it on and-

Payman L:
I mean, back in my day it was maybe the 10th thing on your mind. It needed to be something on your mind for sure, but you’re right. There’s a balance, but now it’s the number one thing when everyone’s mind and all decisions are made based on that.

Nairn Wilson:
And I’ve not been personally involved in a cases but hear really sad stories of people, colleagues of all ages and all levels of seniority and throughout their profession whose lives have been torn apart over two, three years. Not only questioned whether the thing ought to be taken and seen as potentially professional misconduct, but they don’t deal with expeditiously. And some of the wait times and the delays and really, sorry cases of people. Some of our colleagues have reported them afterwards given them lectures about what it was like to be at the receiving end of this and it shouldn’t be that.

Prav Solanki:
I find the frustrating thing, certainly with a lot of a lot of my clients and dentists that I’m close to, is the moment from receiving that letter to anything happening, the sleepless nights, the worry, the what ifs, the anxiety-

Payman L:
The number of suicides there’s been. I mean, when it gets to that.

Nairn Wilson:
Oh, and you got to let legal process go through and people get 28 days to respond and so many days to do this and that. Inevitably it gets dragged out to this certain thing that you can’t sort out overnight. And it always was that way. You got to go through legal process and give people opportunity to respond and do this and get suitably prepared for hearings and so on. Well, fine, but dragging it out over a two years in some cases.

Prav Solanki:
Building on that theme, prof, what’s your biggest clinical mistake?

Nairn Wilson:
I wouldn’t say much mistake, regret looking back, which was normal in my time was a very interventive approach to managing things. And when I was training for restorative dentistry, it was vogue and the thing at the time to do multiple crowns including full mouth rehabilitations. ear to ear crowns. 28 crowns.

Prav Solanki:
Unnecessarily, or…

Nairn Wilson:
Looking back now it was the thing that was advocated and if you went to North America or North Americans came and lectured here, it’s the sort of thing you were seeing. You saw in textbooks. I was trained to do it and before a lot of the things we know have, things like precision attachments, an intercoronal precision attachment, you got it a lot off a tooth, a lot of tooth to accommodate that. And of course the porcelains weren’t as good as they are now so you had to have full preps because remember metal ceramic crowns were something new to me. It was gold crowns and porcelain jacket crowns when I started. You had to have full shoulders. One and a half millimetre shoulders of porcelain and doing full mouth including lower incisors and yes, I believe the research that if you do full depth preps on teeth one in five is probably nonvital at five years. Serial tooth killer.

Nairn Wilson:
I must have, and of course I doing it to relatively young people and as I would say to anybody, if your crowns last 15, 20 years that’s pretty good. But if he did that to a 30 year old who had extensive tooth surface loss because of regurgitation or whatever or where… and you did that, they’re only going to be 45 or 50 when it all goes wrong or needs to be redone.

Prav Solanki:
At best.

Nairn Wilson:
And redoing it is twice as hard as doing it the first time. You got to get all the crowns off first without taking the cores off the teeth and so on. Just getting it taken off to start again is a huge job, but looking back, it wasn’t wrong at the time.

Nairn Wilson:
It was rogue but I regret that I’m now very committed to minimal intervention and yes, there are times a dentist’s got to do what a dentist’s got to do. And if there’s still teeth that need crowned, and if you’re going to crown it do it well, for the patient’s sake, accept the risk and consenting it to say, that’s a very brutal thing to do for a tooth. And it might die in five years and we might have to root it. And so as long as they understand that. There are times, you still need to do the odd crown here and there, you can do a lot by adding on composite and ceramics and all sorts of temporary materials but there’s still times you’ve got do crowns. So looking back, I mean it was the right thing to do at the time but from what I know now.

Prav Solanki:
I guess fashions change, don’t they?

Nairn Wilson:
It wasn’t so much fashion it was thinking. It was accepted at the time, but equally, pleased to say I did some more very good things. Even to this day. My wife always laughs. We went back to Edinburgh two or three years ago. Went up to a match at Murrayfield, or something. Somebody couldn’t go and we got their tickets or something. So we went out for a weekend, I was walking around Edinburgh and a gentleman stopped me and he said, “It’s Dr. Wilson, isn’t it?” And he said, “Still got your teeth.”

Payman L:
A patient?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah.

Payman L:
It must have felt great. Did you meet your wife in university?

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah, she’s not a dentist.

Payman L:
She’s Scottish as well?

Nairn Wilson:
No. No, she’s not. She was born in Northern Ireland and spent some time in Wales in her early years, but we met in Manchester.

Payman L:
How soon did you get married after qualifying? Was it?

Nairn Wilson:
Fairly quick. It was actually a second marriage for me, with my present wife. So no, we met when we were about 30 or something, 30. So, but nope, still going strong. A good relationship. Yeah.

Payman L:
Prof you set up both LonDEC and MANDEC?

Nairn Wilson:
Yep.

Payman L:
Tell us a little bit, expand on the need for those. I mean beautiful things, wonderful things. Massive assets to the profession. The need for those, funding, getting the thing up and going. The difference between Manchester and London in that sense? I mean you did London I guess while you were at King’s?

Nairn Wilson:
Yep. Well, a great chat. No, it was very simple. Being at Manchester, there was a lot of pressure. Hands-on courses were gaining popularity and people appreciated all these new materials. You can’t learn about them in a lecture theatre. And hands-on dentists being who they are, a good fiddle with the material you can learn a lot, whether you like it or not, et cetera to understand it. And lot of pressure, can we come and use your clinical simulation, your phantom head facilities? And I’d say, well the students have got to come first so you can come in the evenings only or weekends. But if you come at weekends, a lot of cost to open the building up and security and this, that and the other. And of course you could come at holiday times, but you say, well would people want a course there? And holidays taking their kids on holiday and so on, because there’s school holidays.

Nairn Wilson:
So there’s all this tension about you’ve got these facilities and they’re only used so many days a year, but we can access them to do this hands-on postgraduate stuff. So we came up with the idea of sort of a dedicated centre for education where people could be accommodated anytime of the week. The students didn’t go and therefore, and students are pretty brutal with equipment, so the equipment would be usable as well. And that was born the idea of MANDEC. And it was going to be expensive, 3.75 million in cost. People said you’re crazy, as in any time, nobody’s got that sort of money to give you. Never say never. And …

Payman L:
So where’d you get the money?

Nairn Wilson:
Everywhere and anywhere I could get my hands on it. Everything from not quite shaking the bucket, but I sold ties, little lapel pins. I made a lot of money on those, to big donations. One of the biggest chunks of money was the postgraduate dean at the time, a man, Jeff Taylor, who should take a lot of credit as well. Because I brokered a deal with Jeff that if he could commit money out front, he could have use of this facility a day a week in 10 years, a bit like a mortgage. So if he could give me money out front, he, once we had the centre, he would have free of charge for 10 years, a day a week, in term time. Because the foundation dentists and the people he was supporting doing continuing education, they didn’t come 52 weeks a year but so he did it. So that’s a big chunk of the money.

Payman L:
But where did he get it from, he had a budget for post-grad?

Nairn Wilson:
No, no. Well it was of course within the whole totality of medical and dental postgraduate education, finding a million or whoever. I forget the exact sum, but it was-

Prav Solanki:
A good chunk.

Nairn Wilson:
A million plus within that huge medical dental, postgraduate budget.

Payman L:
It’s not a big bit.

Nairn Wilson:
It wasn’t a huge bit. So it was money upfront, but it was hand-to-mouth, a little bit. A little bit dealing with new college general dentistry. And I love telling this story that I used to treat the vice chancellor in Manchester. And he’d yet again crushed another filling, a terrible clencher, bust fillings, a stressful job I suppose. So he came over and got on with him well, was chatting away and he said, “You looked a little bit stressed, a bit distracted.” And I said, “Well, I’ve got bit of a problem. The glazing arrives tomorrow and the man wants a check for 20,000 pounds. I’ve got lots of promissory notes, but I haven’t got 20,000 pounds in the bank.”

Nairn Wilson:
So the university had kindly underwritten the whole project, so he said nothing, I fixed his filling, did a bit of a scale and polish on him. He went back to his office and the accountant phoned me up in half an hour and he said, “We’ll cover you tomorrow.”

Nairn Wilson:
But he never forgot. Every time he spoke to you he said, “Ladies and gentlemen, you think you’ve an expensive scale and polish. The last one I had cost me 20 grand.”

Prav Solanki:
20 grand scale and polish.

Nairn Wilson:
Yes. 20 grand scale and polish. There we go. But so we got the glazing and the man got his check and there we go. So it was a bit hand-to-mouth but it was a wonderful project and it was great. Industry could see the potentials, a lot of support from and money from dental industry, which was fantastic. A lot of colleagues put their hand in their pocket too, not just buying ties and lapel pins and so on. There was a lot of, for example, we sold name on the back of chairs in the lecture theatre. I think it was 250 quid, but you were immortalised. And they’re still there to this day, either in memory of somebody or your own chair. I sold those in about two weeks.

Payman L:
And they’ve both become massively successful. It’s really hard to rent those facilities out.

Nairn Wilson:
Well when I left Manchester it was fantastic because the day I left Manchester, the person who ran the MANDEC Centre for the next 365 days, they had bookings for 320 of them, just to show. So I went to London, same problem, and it was the other part of the other justification, a great bridge between academia and dental practise. So getting dentists, rather than going to local hotels and fiddling around-

Prav Solanki:
Conference centres.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah. A proper place or proper hands-on facilities with turbines and suction and three in ones and et cetera, et cetera, proper light, et cetera, et cetera, can’t beat it if you go for educational value. So when I went to London, high on my agenda, because it was more needed in London than anywhere. Some places did have some facilities, but-

Payman L:
Did you come in saying I’m going to deliver this? Was it part of your?

Nairn Wilson:
I had it in mind as one of the things I was going to do. Because of all the mergers, I can remember I took over that-

Payman L:
GKT?

Nairn Wilson:
GKT business. And my first challenge was to get it to be unified and sort that out. And that was a bit of a challenge. But very quickly thereafter, LonDEC, fashioned very much on MANDEC, I’d learned stuff from MANDEC, so LonDEC was even better. Going back to my philosophy, good today, better tomorrow. Reflect and what can I make it better? So in some respects LonDEC is better than MANDEC.

Payman L:
Was it easier to get the money and all that?

Nairn Wilson:
No. Same sort of deal. Booker was the post graduate dean, to give a chunk of money. And yes, on the success of MANDEC, industry and others sponsors said if you give us the same payback that you did through that, we’ll give you some cash. It wasn’t so expensive. I think LonDEC because they didn’t have to do so much physical building it was about 2 million or something. Somehow by the time it was finished. But again, delighted. Mentally getting the right person in there to run it and Bill Sharplings, a fantastic man. Got him to change his life, to go into it. And he loves it. Or as far as I know, he’s still loving it and doing it himself, but he was just perfect. And again, it’s heavily used. Great facilities I think they’re … Well their practise-

Payman L:
Definitely needed, definitely needed.

Nairn Wilson:
People like to come … You want to come somewhere reasonably comfortable, you get a locker you can put your bag in and you can sit down and have a cup of coffee and everything works. And the people around can help if it doesn’t work. No disrespect to students, but having been got at by the students before you get there and making it work, I mean, I think it’s important.

Payman L:
Tell us about this CGDent.

Prav Solanki:
I was going to say the same thing.

Payman L:
Oh, perfect.

Nairn Wilson:
The new college?

Payman L:
The new college.

Nairn Wilson:
Well as I always start off with saying across health care, just about everybody’s got their own college if not a Royal college, but dentistry doesn’t, we have faculties and dental surgery spread around colleges or surgical colleges and buried in them because of our history of barber surgeon stuff, et cetera, that’s why they are in there. But they typically have lots of differences, different approaches. So dentistry doesn’t have its own college. And to me it’s the third leg of the stool. We should have our regulator, we should have our professional body. So GDC BDA, and the third leg of the stool is a college, ideally a Royal college.

Nairn Wilson:
So FGDP when it started in 1991, said that it’s intention was to become a college at some stage. So their 25th birthday party and some tensions and difficulties with their hosts the Royal College of Surgeons, but 25, they said the time has come. And they I think were very insightful and forward looking. It’s not a case of FGDP becoming a college of general, they want to create a college of general dentistry opportunity for membership for all members of the dental team. Everybody. Yeah.

Payman L:
And FGDP again?

Nairn Wilson:
Yes everybody. And as of when FGDP complete it’s separation from the college of surgeons, because we’ve been in there 25 years, it can’t just get up and walk out. There’s all sorts of stuff about who owns what and IP and money.

Payman L:
Are we talking a building as well? A physical site?

Nairn Wilson:
Well we haven’t got the money at the minute. It’s a bit like other things, have done this a bit hand-to-mouth. So I took on the project because they came and said to me, given all the different things I’ve done in my career, can you lead this? And there’s no manual for how do you create a college, let alone a Royal college. So well, where do we start? Where do you start creating MANDEC? Where do you start creating LonDEC? Whatever, where do you start creating dental materials?

Payman L:
You figure it out.

Nairn Wilson:
You figure it out. So it’s been a fascinating thing to do. And thanks to generosity of principally colleagues who have become founders and founding contributors and I’m now beginning to look at organisations to be corporate sponsors and donors and so on. We’ve managed to finance this so far, we’re well on our way. And we have just a press release today with the first educational offering, IAS Academy with a new diploma for orthodontics for general practitioners. So and we will have a formal launch of this college within three months or so. And still a big hill to climb because we are living a bit hand-to-mouth financially.

Nairn Wilson:
Once FGDP is separated from the college and we start getting their subscription income and so on, then things are very different. But that’s still a year, 18 months or something, potentially down the line. So we’ve got to get from here to there. And under no illusions this has got to appeal to principally younger people because fully understand, unlike in my day, the owner and privilege of being in a college and having initials after your name, doesn’t necessarily cut it for a young colleague, now they say, “Okay, what else do I get? What are the benefits of being in this organisation?”

Nairn Wilson:
So we’re working very hard on member benefits and making it attractive to young people because to be successful it’s not just a case of somebody coming sitting an exam, getting a diploma or a certificate and putting initials on it and going away. We want to keep them as subscribing members. And that’s a challenge to make it.

Prav Solanki:
Just thinking out loud, what is it that these younger members of the profession would want as a member benefits in addition to obviously, coming in, sitting the exam, getting the badge or the title?

Nairn Wilson:
Priority for very high quality CPD, organised, and that’s going to be great for members, et cetera.

Prav Solanki:
With their like suppliers and things like that?

Nairn Wilson:
Possibility of discounts with various things. And yes, we’re actively working on partnership, working with various organisations to hopefully have some of these things. Hopefully, is there any possibility down the line that contracting for services. If I’ve got a fellowship of this new college, is my contracting. rate going to be different, et cetera? Or if I am a fellow do I get a special rate for indemnity insurance or whatever?

Nairn Wilson:
Some incentive because in medicine you aren’t, as I did, the incentive of getting a fellowship where Royal College was as part of my career progression. If I didn’t get my FDS I wasn’t going to progress. And if I wasn’t getting my clinical training I wasn’t going to end up as a specialist in restorative dentistry if I didn’t pass these exams and get these initials after my name. Not that we’re in general practise and unlikely to be so. So it’s got to be on a different-

Payman L:
Do you envisage a day that it would be part of career progression?

Nairn Wilson:
Yes. And the new college is working on a brand new career pathway for people in general dentistry, all members of the dental team.

Payman L:
Yeah. I mean it’s a huge problem it’s it? It’s a huge problem that a nurse hasn’t got anywhere to go career wise.

Nairn Wilson:
Well, they do at the minute they can do post qualification diplomas and things like conscious sedation, oral health education, et cetera. There’s a range, the National Examination Board for Dental Nurses, which I was a trustee for a while, they do have post qualification things, but bringing these on so that they could be seen to be an advanced practitioner type nurse or whatever. And giving incentive, and they probably are in a position that if you’re a nurse and get these diplomas and so on, maybe you will be happy to pay her more because she can do more functions and things in the practise as an advanced level, hygienists might do, the same thing.

Nairn Wilson:
So they may well be incentivized because they are greater value, but it’s getting that through to the dentists particularly with corporates and so on. Maybe within corporate, so it might be easier that the dentists who have got certain qualifications maybe oversees a number of practises or runs a practise or becomes a clinical advisor or whatever.

Payman L:
What should dentists and DCPs do right now, if they want to get more involved in this?

Nairn Wilson:
First and foremost, go onto the website. I am desperate to get people to sign up as supporters. No consequences of costs, any other strings attached. I need supporters because when I go to the privy council to ask for a charter, a charter so that we can award diplomas and certificates and so on, hopefully a Royal charter, one of the first questions is well, who’s supporting you? And many people in the profession who are supporting you.

Payman L:
Got you. So how do they do that?

Nairn Wilson:
Go online, it’s a two minute process.

Payman L:
What’s the website?

Nairn Wilson:
It’s College of General Dentistry: https://cgdent.uk.

Payman L:
Cgdent.uk.

Nairn Wilson:
.uk.

Payman L:
And there’s a subscribe?

Nairn Wilson:
And just, I think the top line just says, support us. Click on that and you can sign and support. And if people want to get more involved, if they would like to donate, you can be a contributor, a phone in contributor or a founder and you have these opportunities until we formally launch the college. So if you’d like to be immortalised, your name will go on a role of honour. And as soon as we do host some premises, it will be reproduced and hung up in a prominent place and it will be there, someone hopes and 4 or 500 years when they celebrate this, they can look at this list and toast and say, I don’t know who these guys were, people, sorry, ladies. I could do with more ladies contributing to this college with …

Payman L:
Prof, I’ve got a question for you.

Nairn Wilson:
But no, that’s where we are and it’s, I’m delighted that it is going to happen and we, dentistry, is going to have it’s own independent, hopefully Royal college.

Prav Solanki:
Amazing.

Nairn Wilson:
Which will set standards and I will attain, going back to what we said earlier, it will become a custodian of professionalism.

Nairn Wilson:
It’s not a job with the BDA, it’s a trade union. It supports it and so on. And we can get into a situation where as, with the Royal College of General Practise for medics and the BMA of jointly hopefully moving the profession forward and looking towards a brighter future. It’s a very historic development, third leg in the stool, as I said.

Payman L:
It’s a common thing people say, I’ve heard them say it many times Prav, that when we talk about how do we get into this mess. In this particular area of dentistry, people blame our leaders. It’s very common. And would you, you’ve been a leader in every aspect of dentistry. You’ve been a leader in industry. Two of the universities, the GDC, the BDA, which we haven’t even discussed yet, the nursing thing. Now the call is your a leader in dentistry. When people say our leaders are failing us, how does that make you feel? What do you say to that?

Nairn Wilson:
We don’t live in a dictatorship. So the power you’ve got as a leader, we live in a democracy and people are free to do what they want to do and you can’t control everything. Nobody has that power. You can only show the way. Encourage people down the way. You can’t dictate to them. And there’s been lots of things we talked about, defensive dentistry, temptations to get into dental spas and things. Not, I do believe in tooth whitening. I believe that there’s a therapeutic element to it that you can make a person feel younger, brighter, more confident. Not by giving them very white teeth but lightening the teeth up a little bit, making them look more youthful. Yeah, it’s good.

Nairn Wilson:
And yes, I believe dentists should do selective soft tissue aesthetics and I used a lot myself, the older person with chronic angular colitis, and you give them a new denture, you can’t build them a way out to get rid of the folds at the corner mouth but give them a nice denture that gives them more support and a little bit of Botox, just to relax them, it gets rid of the colitis or the very tight mentalis muscle or the grinder, a little bit in masseter muscles. I’ve done this, I did it 10, 15 years ago when I treated chronic grinders and wear cases and so on, and it works very well.

Nairn Wilson:
So selective, but it comes back to a principal I had at the GDC and I still believe today, and I think it was unfortunate the GDC in its dark period defined what dentistry was. I don’t think you should define it. Dentistry is what dentists do and if a reasonable body of dentists do Botox or whitening, then it’s dentistry. And the job of the GDC should be to then regulate it, that people are properly trained and people have recourse if it goes wrong or it’s misused.

Nairn Wilson:
So if dentists are doing this, I think you except the regulator, to me, you should accept it and say, right now we regulate it and people are properly trained to do it and there is recourse to the patients if it goes wrong or it’s misused or whatever. That’s the way it should evolve to me, to my thinking.

Nairn Wilson:
And I very much hope that we get back to that and hopefully our college will encourage this as well. What’s dentistry going to be in 2050? It’s going to be very different from what it is now. What sorts of procedures, new diseases and things, people living in goodness knows what age and how do we keep teeth to 120 or something? Because I maintain, I think one of the big next boom is anti-ageing dentistry.

Prav Solanki:
Yeah. For sure.

Nairn Wilson:
Of preserving teeth. Not until 80, 90. 110, 120, might be the norm in 2050 with advances in medicine, how do we keep the teeth going then? Or look after periodontal tissues. Yeah. Because you look at a 90 year old, you think, haven’t the teeth done well. But how do we … And that’s one of the challenges that people are going to live longer, we’ve got to give them teeth for life.

Prav Solanki:
Functional teeth.

Nairn Wilson:
Functional teeth. Because you’re shuffling around in your residential home, or whatever it is you are, one of the big treats of the day is lunch. Will I be able to eat it? Will I enjoy it? And I don’t want to eat it through bits of plastic and stuff. I want my own teeth. That’s your job dentists. And I think it’s a huge challenge for the profession and amongst all the other stuff we’ve got. Too much caries in kids and all these GAs but the other, come on, we’ve got to step up in the research should be happening now, of new techniques, new materials, new approaches to give people teeth relief.

Prav Solanki:
I’ve got a question for you Prof and it’s sort of a little bit dentist related, a little bit not, is that, let’s say it’s your last day on the planet and you’ve got a couple of bits of advice to give-

Nairn Wilson:
Will I be thinking dentistry.

Prav Solanki:
And you’ve already spoke about, you spend a lot of time reflecting about being better tomorrow than you are today and rather than yesterday. So if you were to give a few bits of advice to the dental profession, what would they be? And if you were to give a few bits of advice to children, what would they be?

Nairn Wilson:
Well, let’s start with the kids and say, follow your heart. Don’t be frightened to take bold steps. And if you’re not happy, do something about it. Get out there and change if you feel as you’re not going to be happy doing this change it. Your futures in your hands.

Prav Solanki:
As you did.

Nairn Wilson:
Yeah. It’s painful. Yeah. For three months and you do something and you think, why did I do this? But once you get past the initial period, you think, whoa, that’s great. You know, lots of new challenges, things et cetera. And to follow your heart to look for happiness. Don’t say, “Oh, I got it all wrong and I’m now stuck here.” No, go out and change it. It might be tough, it might be hard. You might put yourself in a position you don’t have a lot of money for a while or whatever, but go and do it, would be the advice to the kids.

Nairn Wilson:
Profession, have confidence in yourself. Pursue something such as a Royal college and make it a huge success. We’re good, a fantastic history, and I think we can do huge things for people because oral health is such an important thing to general health and wellbeing through all life. Notably in older age. We’ve got a huge challenge ahead of us and if we’re going to fulfil our destiny and realise our potential, we’ve got to work together through something such as a Royal college and supporting the BDAs supporting a good trade union and move ahead so that we can all, at the end of the day, on the last day of the planet, sit and think, gosh, I’ll get no more time, but what time I had, we put to good use. And we hopefully left a better place than where we found it.

Payman L:
Made a difference.

Nairn Wilson:
Made a difference. Yep.

Payman L:
Amazing.

Nairn Wilson:
So I’m not going to lie on my deathbeds thinking, I should have filled another tooth. Yep. But making a difference. And if I feel I can get there and I often say that I feel I’ve been really lucky in dentistry and there are two things I say, the more I do, the luckier I get. And the more you do, you do bring your own luck and opportunity and so on. If you sit there just complaining, it doesn’t happen. Go and look for it, and go and find it. Go with it.

Nairn Wilson:
And the other thing is you try and put back as much as you get. And hard as I try, I still feel, and I suspect time will never put as much back into dentistry as it’s given me because it’s been a great career, I really enjoyed myself. It’s been very fulfilling. It’s provided opportunity to live comfortably, bring my kids up and do all these things, et cetera, and help them get established. Fantastic. And there’s been some great experiences down the way and it’s been wonderful. So no regrets.

Nairn Wilson:
When you look back, of course things you could have done things differently or better, but hey, live the day and move on.

Payman L:
Yeah. You’re a massive inspiration. Prof

Prav Solanki:
Yeah. Massive. Thank you so much.

Nairn Wilson:
It’s a great pleasure to talk about it and I encourage you young colleagues you, it is a great profession. Confidence. Go for it. Make it important, make a difference. Realise your potential. There we go.

Prav Solanki:
Thank you. Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure.

Outro Voice:
This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry, your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki:
Hey guys, and thank you for listening to today’s episode of the dental leaders podcast, a vision that myself and Payman had over two years ago now. And if you have got some value out of today, just hit the subscribe button in iTunes or Google Play or whatever you’re listening to. Let us know in your comments what you actually got out of the episode because we love sitting back and reading those reviews. It really does make our day.

Payman L:
It’s a real pleasure to do this. It’s fun to do, but I’m really humbled that you’re actually listening all the way through to the end and join us again. If you got some value out of it please share it. Thanks a lot.

Transcript

Payman: Hi guys. Welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast. Today’s guest is one of my best friends in dentistry, a lovely guy who it feels like he’s there for everyone, Paul Abrahams. I go back a long way with him. He told us about his early life, his beautiful practise in St. John’s Wood, and then all of that culminating in a sale to a corporate.

Payman: For someone who wants to see, in one succinct sort of interview, what it means to start something from nothing all the way to exit, from someone who’s super open, and going forward, I think we’re going to see a lot more of him in the education field, Prav, and digital.

Prav Solanki: For sure. Definitely leading the way in digital and going and learning from the best in the world. But the one key thing that I took away was the art of graft, turning up as an associate in his first practise and painting the walls. Can you imagine an associate today turning up and saying, “I’ll paint the practise”? just real hard graft from a very early age and what that ended up culminating in. It was a great conversation. Enjoy guys.

Payman: Enjoy guys. How old were you when you thought, “I’m going to be a dentist.” Do you remember the moment? About 35?

Paul Abrahams: About 35.

Automated Voice: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman: Paul, really happy that you agreed to do this for us, and I’ve known you a long time. Prav, you haven’t known him-

Prav Solanki: We’ve met. We’ve definitely met.

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, we’ve met.

Prav Solanki: Met at events.

Paul Abrahams: Of course, I don’t really know you.

Prav Solanki: No.

Paul Abrahams: But it’s great to meet you.

Prav Solanki: Likewise. Good to meet you.

Paul Abrahams: Properly.

Prav Solanki: Again, for like maybe the third time. I remember when Payman said we’ve got you on the podcast and he said, “Do you know the guy?” I said, “He’s just a lot taller than me. That’s all I remember, is having a conversation at the IDS looking up at him.”

Payman: IDS, is it?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. I think it was the last time I saw you. Was that four years ago?

Paul Abrahams: About four years ago. At that time, I think very few people were there, so I think very few English guys going out.

Payman: Give us a little backstory Paul, just the one-minute version.

Paul Abrahams: The one-minute version? I qualified in ’89-

Payman: No.

Paul Abrahams: No?

Payman: When did your parents meet?

Paul Abrahams: When did my parents meet? That’s a really good question. I think my mom’s from Liverpool, my dad’s from the East End, and my dad was introduced to my mom by his future sister-in-law, I think, if I’m right, when my mom came down to London. But my mom is from a massive family, so she’s one of nine.

Payman: Nine kids?

Paul Abrahams: Nine kids.

Payman: Wow.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Paul Abrahams: They were a bit like the Liverpool Mafia. Everyone knew them in the community, in the Jewish community, which was quite a strong community in those days.

Payman: Has it stayed that way?

Paul Abrahams: Not as strong as it used to be.

Payman: Not as strong as it used to be.

Paul Abrahams: A lot of people have come back down south and spread around, so yeah.

Payman: And where we you born?

Paul Abrahams: I was born in Essex. I am an Essex boy. I was born in Ilford, and lived my first five, six years in Ilford. And then we moved to North London, to Wembley and that’s where I was brought up.

Payman: How old were you when you thought, “I’m going to be a dentist”? Do you remember the moment? About 35?

Paul Abrahams: About 35. You know what? I was always … It was that classic generational thing. Both my parents were what was considered to be working class. Dad was a jeweller. Mom worked in the pharmacy behind the counter. It’s that typical thing in the Jewish community. You’ve got to be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, whatever it might be professionally. So you’re driven in that direction. I was always good at the sciences and it just went that way.

Payman: Were your parents born in the UK as well?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah.

Payman: And their parents?

Paul Abrahams: Two of my grandparents were born in the UK, which is rare, and two … So I’ve got Russian, Romanian and Polish roots.

Payman: Oh, really?

Prav Solanki: Oh, wow.

Paul Abrahams: Came out of Eastern Europe in the pilgrims.

Payman: Were there any dentists in the family at all?

Paul Abrahams: No. My dad’s dad was a market trader. He used to live right opposite in a flat, it’s opposite the London Hospital, and have his market stool and drag it down the street, fruit and veg, and used to have all these life savings in his little pouch at the front. That’s what my dad told me. He was a farmer during the Blitz. So that’s his-

Payman: Where did dentistry come from then? Was there someone? Was there-

Paul Abrahams: No one.

Payman: A dentist?

Paul Abrahams: None. I don’t know.

Paul Abrahams: I was always good with my hands, and I think at that point … I think it was a different era where you could only do three A levels. I was good at arts. I had to drop art. I think career choice was medicine, dentistry or architecture.

Payman: So you were academically quite good at school?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And how would you describe your upbringing compared to, let’s say, the upbringing of your children? What was your life like? What did you go with, go without, those sort of things?

Paul Abrahams: I don’t really have memories of going without anything. I think we had a comfortable upbringing. I suppose we were brought up during the 70s when it was quite tricky. But mom and dad were always at work, so just a normal, everyday, semi-detached house in Wembley. I don’t think anything but happy. There was never any issues. I’ve got one brother.

Paul Abrahams: I think my children are a lot more privileged than we ever were. But does that make a difference? Probably not, in many respects, because it’s what’s around you. I have a big family, obviously. So a big, close family in terms of cousins on both sides.

Prav Solanki: The things I always think about is that I was brought up, and I went without quite a lot certainly compared to my own kids, and it always occurs to me that are you doing the right thing by giving them everything, or are you doing the wrong thing?

Prav Solanki: And me having gone without has shaped me, whatever that is. Have you got a perspective on that in terms of-

Payman: Much with older children you can see what’s happened now with-

Paul Abrahams: So I’m like Prav and I’ve got four children, so my oldest … We had our kids young. So two things, one, my wife isn’t Jewish and I am. So it was a massive issue there, that when we got together, that was something that my parents didn’t want for me.

Paul Abrahams: For three years, that was first with my wife, they didn’t speak to her or know her. That was a very difficult time, so that shaped a lot of things that we do. Got married young and-

Payman: How old were you?

Paul Abrahams: I’m 53, just turned-

Payman: No, how old were you when you got married?

Paul Abrahams: I was 26.

Payman: Kind of straight of dentist school.

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, straight out. Part of that was because we’d been together from my second year of dentist school through to the end. And like I said, at that point, my parents hadn’t met my wife. It was a question of saying, “We’re getting married,” because if we get married, then-

Payman: They’ve got no choice.

Paul Abrahams: They’ve got no choice. And I suppose in some families, it would’ve been, “We’re never speaking to you again,” or … That never happened, fortunately. I had my oldest a year later, so I was 27. I think she’s 26 this year.

Payman: And Sonri is French. What was she doing in London?

Paul Abrahams: That’s a good question. What was she doing in London? She came to London for an experience. She was studying English. We met in halls of residency in Russell Square. So it was a big group of Italians, French from all over Europe. In fact, she still, every year, goes on a reunion with the girls that she met when she first came to London.

Payman: Nice.

Paul Abrahams: They go for a long weekend, and they’re from all over Europe. In fact, one of her friends from the next town married one of my best friends who was in a year below me.

Payman: Awesome.

Paul Abrahams: And they’re still together as well. So that shaped perspective, for sure. My oldest probably had … When I had my first child, it was a struggle. I just started, then we bought the practise. In fact, we bought the practise in the same year in St. John’s Wood, weren’t really making a lot from it.

Paul Abrahams: So everything was harder, I think. We had a reasonably difficult start. But she’s got a different perspective. My youngest now who’s 14 has been brought up in great holidays, all that type of thing, so it’s interesting.

Payman: By the way, were her parents cool with you?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, 100% which made it easier.

Payman: You studied where?

Paul Abrahams: I studied at Guy’s.

Payman: Oh, yeah, of course, Guy’s man. I can always tell-

Paul Abrahams: Is there anywhere else?

Payman: I can always tell a Guy’s man. I can always tell a Guy’s man because they show off so much about this.

Paul Abrahams: Best place in the world. What can I say?

Payman: My brother’s a Guy’s man too.

Prav Solanki: Is he?

Payman: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Just before we go there, something you said really resonated with me, which was the whole parents thing. I’m Hindu, my wife is Sikh. My wife had previously been married, and so introducing that into my family, as you can imagine, brought about some elements of conflict.

Prav Solanki: And it was a tough time, but I think what happened was we made the decision we’re going to get married, and created that family home, and we’ve got an amazing, happy life now. But we had to go through that challenge. I remember asking her father for her hand in marriage, and it was probably the most nerve-wracking thing I’ve ever done.

Prav Solanki: Can you remember the time where you had to approach your parents or have a difficult conversation, and what that was like?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. I mean having that conversation to say, “We are getting married,” my dad didn’t want to speak to me. At that point, they were saying, “Well, if you decide to do that, we won’t speak to her. We don’t want anything to do with her.” That was what they were saying at the time, and we got some great wedding photos and my mom was wearing black at the wedding.

Prav Solanki: Whoa.

Payman: Whoa.

Prav Solanki: Did you believe them?

Paul Abrahams: You know what? You’ve just got to make a decision and hope that people see through, which is exactly what happened. It was a very difficult time, I suppose, much harder for my wife than it ever was for me.

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Paul Abrahams: Because it’s such a barrier. It would be much easier for someone to say, “I’m not getting involved with that.”

Prav Solanki: For sure.

Paul Abrahams: You’ve got this huge, huge thing.

Payman: How did that reflect on … I mean are your kids married, any of them?

Paul Abrahams: No, none of my kids are married, and they don’t look like close to being married. They’ve benefited from both cultures. The interesting thing is when I first went … very nerve-wracking to go and meet my wife’s family for the first time.

Paul Abrahams: But they were like a big family, Mediterranean family. It could have been a big, Jewish family, big Asian family, that same feel.

Prav Solanki: Culture, the closeness.

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. I mean very similar, not very different.

Payman: Where I’m going is if your daughter comes home with an Iranian, Muslim type-

Paul Abrahams: Whatever she wants to do-

Payman: Baring in mind your-

Paul Abrahams: Whatever it is, it is. I don’t think it should be an issue. There’s so many divisive things going on in our society at the moment, and most of that centres around religion. That’s whatever they choose to do.

Payman: I like that.

Prav Solanki: What was the turning point where it all came back together and-

Payman: Was it having kids? Was that the-

Paul Abrahams: I think having kids is a big thing. I don’t think my brother’s ever going to listen to this, so my brother had a big Jewish wedding, the typical whole nine yards and was divorced six months later. And I think that maybe had an effect as well. He went through all that, which was supposed to be the way to do it, and then we-

Prav Solanki: Pleasing everyone.

Paul Abrahams: Pleasing everyone, and it was the wrong thing to do. Well, whether it was the wrong, it didn’t work out. Of course, having children is a game changer.

Payman: Are you older or your brother is?

Paul Abrahams: My brother’s older.

Payman: So you got married before him or?

Paul Abrahams: Got married before him.

Payman: How were your undergrad years?

Paul Abrahams: I don’t know. I can’t remember.

Payman: Good answer.

Paul Abrahams: It was good. And listen, I think you often hear people say that time at uni is the best. I mean certainly, it was, for me, a fantastic five years.

Prav Solanki: Amazing.

Paul Abrahams: Deeply involved in every way really.

Payman: Were you a rugby guy?

Paul Abrahams: I was a football guy, so I was a sports guy. I-

Payman: Guy’s very rugby-oriented.

Paul Abrahams: Hugely rugby-oriented, but we had these guys … I mean things have changed massively. I remember joining the football club and in that first two months, they had a football club dinner. There was guys there who played for Guy’s 30 years before turning up for this. It just is steeped in history.

Paul Abrahams: You go to, I don’t even know if it’s still there, but they had Honour Oak Park, which was their sports grounds, and they had this fantastic pavilion with pictures on the wall of the rugby club, oldest rugby club in the world, steeped in history. It was an incredible place.

Payman: Oldest medical rugby?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. Oldest rugby club, full stop, in the world, Guy’s.

Payman: Really?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, or so they say. But because it’s been there so long, there’s so much history there and you feel part of that. I spent so many good times for hours after the games in the pavilion with the rugby boys, the hockey. It was a fantastic setup.

Payman: Comfortable as a dental student?

Paul Abrahams: I think I was comfortable as a dental student without really … I mean the social side was a big part of it. So that always affects your academic achievements, should we say. But it was always comfortable. It was never-

Payman: You did a five-year course or the four-year?

Paul Abrahams: It was the four-year, isn’t it? Four-year and a term, you graduate in December.

Payman: And there was no VT.

Paul Abrahams: No VT but I chose to do VT.

Payman: Oh, there was VT then.

Prav Solanki: It was optional.

Paul Abrahams: You didn’t have to do it. It was optional, and that was a great start. I mean, again, I was talking to Prav before about the guy that I started work with, and I was very, very fortunate there.

Prav Solanki: Tell us-

Payman: Who was he?

Paul Abrahams: His name is Maurice Weinstein or Maish Weinstein. You wouldn’t know who he is, South African guy in Wimbledon, but fantastic mentor. I was lucky, very, very lucky.

Payman: First boss is such a key-

Paul Abrahams: Key to everything you do and is still is key, the people you get involved with at the beginning.

Payman: I think Prav’s first boss made him leave medicine.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. I mean he really instilled happiness in these students, do you know? And that’s what life was really about. I remember I was actually coming towards the end of my PhD, I’d set up my own business in the last year of my PhD. I went back to him and said, “Tom …” And he offered me a junior research fellowship at Oxford University, a really prestigious position and I said, “Tom, do you know what? I’m really loving this business thing I’m doing.”

Prav Solanki: But I wasn’t successful at it at all. I think I was doing like 300 quid a month in turnover. And he said, “Do you know what, Prav? Just go and do what you love. I’ll keep this job open for you for the next 12 months, and I hope I don’t see you again.” And these people in your life that inspire you or shape your life, your career, the path you go down-

Paul Abrahams: If you’re lucky, that’s the point. Or you make your own luck, but I think that’s so key.

Prav Solanki: But I recently … It was recently, but shortly after that, I watched a film called The Butterfly Effect. Have you ever seen that?

Paul Abrahams: Probably have, can’t remember it. But I’ll-

Prav Solanki: I mean it’s how tiny, little decisions and influences in your life can make your path go so much in a different direction. And there are points in my life, like meeting Tom, being interviewed by Tom, being mentored by him, and other people in life, that it’s the reason why I’m sat here today. And I’m sure this chap who-

Paul Abrahams: I think that’s absolutely right, and I’m still very close to him. Whatever it is, he’d probably be the first person I pick up the phone for advice for.

Payman: Still now.

Paul Abrahams: Still now. We live quite close to each other. I mean I might go a few weeks without speaking to him, but if-

Prav Solanki: That’s amazing.

Paul Abrahams: It’s something, a big decision, he will probably be the first person I picked up the phone to-

Payman: And so what was it about him that … What would you say he’s instilled in you?

Paul Abrahams: I just think it’s that ethic. There’s an ethic, the way he does things, the way he works. It’s just that approach.

Payman: Is he still practising ?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely.

Prav Solanki: How did you meet him? Can you remember the first time?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. I’ll tell you how I met him. One of my best buddies at uni, he’s girlfriend is a hygienist and worked for him. “I’m looking for a job, as you are, and Weinstein in Wimbledon is looking for an Abrahams,” because it fits together.

Paul Abrahams: I went to meet him and we had a cucumber sandwich together. He made me a sandwich and said, “You know what? I think we’ll get along.”

Prav Solanki: Nice.

Paul Abrahams: And it was how the-

Prav Solanki: It was chemistry from-

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, and he had this empty room, I said, “You know what?” his name is Maurice but I call him Maish, I said, “Maish, you know what? This room’s not ready. We need to get it right.” I said, “You know what? I’ll come in and paint it. I’ve got nothing to do,” so the first thing I did was paint my own surgery before starting.

Payman: Nice.

Paul Abrahams: Can you imagine that happening today? I just don’t think that-

Prav Solanki: Just can’t see that happening.

Paul Abrahams: You can’t. You get an associate come in and say, “I’ll come paint your surgery.”

Prav Solanki: Not a chance.

Paul Abrahams: And you know that typical situation where you’re a VT, you’re on a salary … I didn’t have to do VT. I think it worked very well for me, no pressure, would come in and help whenever. That first year was really important.

Prav Solanki: But did you take away from that first year in terms of … Was it more to do with communicating with patients and learning how to … or was it clinical?

Paul Abrahams: He’s a great communicator, and I think that’s a massive thing. That shapes you. I think I was fortunate in stuff I did before I went to uni and the other things where I learned about communication anyway. I think for some people, it comes naturally. It came naturally to him.

Paul Abrahams: I think it came naturally to me, but just learning how to deal with people in the dental situation is key. I think a lot of people are struggling with that.

Prav Solanki: I think it’s probably one of the biggest factors in a patient putting trust in you. Sometimes there’s loads of dentists out there who may have the same clinical skills as you, if not better. But I think the most important thing is the trust that you develop during that initial conversation, and that comes down to those communication skills and rapport.

Paul Abrahams: It’s all about rapport. I think that’s whenever we do. Again, people are all concerned about litigation and all that type of stuff. I think that’s less of an issue if you have the rapport.

Prav Solanki: For sure.

Paul Abrahams: Talk yourself out. Well, if you get along with someone, you’re prepared to look someone in the eye and say, “Look, I’m really sorry, this has gone wrong,” or whatever it is, that’s much less of an issue.

Prav Solanki: What’s the biggest clinical mistake you’ve ever made?

Paul Abrahams: I knew that was coming. Biggest clinical mistake, that’s a really tricky one. I mean it’s hard to think of anything specific that has gone wrong in the past. I think anyone who’s been in dentistry for 30 years and says it hasn’t is lying through their teeth.

Paul Abrahams: I’m just trying to think of a specific situation but I can’t … Possibly, biggest clinical thing I can think of is trying to take off an old crown on someone and it was a bonded crown and I thought it was cemented, cutting the crown in half and putting my flat plastic to flip the two halves off, and hearing the crack as the tooth split in half right down the root.

Paul Abrahams: And then have to say to the patient, “Actually, I was replacing that crown. We’re actually replacing that tooth.” That was probably the biggest.

Payman: What are you supposed to do in that situation?

Paul Abrahams: Run.

Payman: No, before it happens. How are supposed to take off a bonded crown compared to-

Paul Abrahams: You’ve just got to cut it off.

Payman: Just cut it?

Paul Abrahams: Cut it off.

Payman: Drill it off.

Paul Abrahams: You just don’t know how well it’s bonded. And that was possibly the biggest one.

Payman: What about like a direction of career perspective? I’m not going to call it a mistake, but if you could do it again, would you move your career in a different direction?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. And actually first it comes back to Maish, he’d kill himself if he hears this because I’m not sure he’s ever heard it. But I remember going to an implant course in 1993 or ’92, and him saying to me, “Don’t do that because I’m going to catch you when you’re not working.” That was a big mistake, all right? That was a big mistake. Because at that point, it was early days.

Payman: You’re right.

Paul Abrahams: I did a restorative course and he said, “You’re wasting your time. Don’t bother,” so there’s always things like that. And I’m a generalist and I’ve done … I’m a bit of a course junkie, always have been. I suppose I maybe should have focused on one thing.

Paul Abrahams: So I’ve done all the courses in the world and still do a bit of everything. I might be better just doing one thing. I don’t know. Maybe not.

Payman: Looking from the outside, it looks like you really have delved into the digital thing earlier than the most. Are you good with computers or?

Paul Abrahams: No. I’m crap with computers.

Payman: How did you end up staying with it long enough-

Paul Abrahams: I used to work with Ashley [Byrne 00:20:38], was my technician. His dad as well. That was our technician in the early days, and Ashley called me one day and said, “I’ve got this scanner, or we’re having a demo in the lab. Would you like to come along? Because I think it’s something you will enjoy.”

Paul Abrahams: That was 12 years ago, the first iTero. I think it was one of the first of 10 in the country. I mean it made no financial sense, but here was this fantastic toy that you could can people’s teeth with and send it to the lab without taking an impression. So I bought it, and not because I’m particularly technical.

Paul Abrahams: I mean if you gave a computer, I wouldn’t know what to do with it most of the time apart from push the buttons.

Prav Solanki: That was over a decade ago?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. Someone’s always got to be … I mean you often get people asking, “Why should I buy it now? Shouldn’t I wait for something …” You’ve got to get involved at some point. Get involved.

Payman: How did it perform that year?

Paul Abrahams: That was a fantastic … don’t even remember it coming in. We did a couple of things with-

Payman: Was it the same one?

Paul Abrahams: It was.

Payman: Oh, really?

Paul Abrahams: It was a great bit of kit and still is. The iTero is a fantastic scanner. And look, I think when I bought iTero, it was Straumann. They were looking at iTero from a restorative perspective not an orthodontic perspective. Then Align bought the company, and Align must have looked at the market and looked for what they thought would be the best scanner corsage, and they decided iTero was the one. So it was a great bit of kit.

Payman: What’s your advice for someone … I mean there must be right now, that must be the key question in dentists’ mind, which scanner to get. I don’t mean which one to get, but what should they do? What should they look at-

Paul Abrahams: Well, it’s what you want to do. Are you-

Payman: From where I’m standing, I’m not an expert, but it feels like if you’re into Invisalign, iTero seems to be the way. If you’re into restorative, the big restorative guys seem to be more-

Prav Solanki: TRIOS.

Paul Abrahams: TRIOS.

Payman: And now, there’s this brand new one.

Paul Abrahams: So it’s what you want to do. You have to decide are you predominantly ortho? So are you doing Invisalign? That’s got to be iTero. Are you implants? Really depending on what you’re going to do with it. For me, I’ve still got my old iTero. I rarely use it.

Paul Abrahams: But for me, in my very small practise, it was about making crowns on-site for people, so I needed to mill. I went to IDS two years ago with a view of buying the new iTero and hooking up a milling machine with it. At the time, Heraeus were talking about a laser milling machine, and they were saying, “Buy this and you’ll be able to hook it up.”

Paul Abrahams: That thing never came to fruition, so you’ve got to be a little bit careful. You know what? Why reinvent the wheel. Sirona have done it really well. It’s been around for a long time, so I bought an Omnicam and it’s worked fantastically well for me.

Paul Abrahams: That’s a big part of that. There’s lots of new technology, new cameras, new scanners. But some of these guys have been doing it for 34 … well, however long they’ve been doing it. It’s a bloody long time. So why go somewhere else?

Payman: Talk me through the CEREC sort of learning curve. How long does it take before you feel proud of CEREC restoration?

Paul Abrahams: I don’t think it takes long, but I think one of the big things that’s been missing, I think, not necessarily from Sirona, but from the suppliers is the teaching. You get this bit of kit which you’ve paid whatever it is, 75 grand for and invariably, a rep will come in and show you how to use it, not a clinician.

Paul Abrahams: I think there’s a big hole there in education, and I think what happens is people get very frustrated with the kit. They try and make a crown and it looks like a lump of chewing gum, and very quickly find it difficult, or something happens when they’re using the software.

Paul Abrahams: They’re not sure how to use it, and then they spent 70 grand and this thing is sitting in the corner of their surgery. Then you see on social media, “CEREC is shit. I’m not …” excuse the expression, “I’m not using it. I spent a lot of money.” There’s a gap there, whereas the learning curve is short but it’s sharp.

Payman: Because as an associate, I used it maybe 25 times and my conclusion by … And then you know, I stopped being a dentist. But my conclusion from that 25 times was I’d taken something that I could do very, very predictably and turned into something slightly unpredictable. Obviously, I didn’t know how to use it.

Paul Abrahams: Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it?

Payman: I get that. I get that because I know you’re not going to do it on your patients if you didn’t know it was good. But is 25 the right number, or how many times do you have to use it before you … I suppose a dentist, who you are-

Paul Abrahams: I don’t think it is who you are, but I don’t think it’s as many as 25, and I think it’s do a couple then go and learn how to do it, go and do a course-

Payman: Did you go on a course?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. I did a course-

Payman: You’re teaching a course as well.

Paul Abrahams: I’m teaching a few courses. But I’ve just been out to Phoenix to do a course. The Spear Institute, they run some fantastic courses. We just flew out on a six o’clock local time, did the course for two days in Phoenix and came home, and that was an advanced direct course.

Paul Abrahams: They’ve got this incredible facility. The guys know what they’re doing, brilliant setup. There’s nothing like that here in London. I mean you’ve got a few guys who are starting to teach courses.

Payman: And you did anterior with it as well?

Paul Abrahams: Anterior. This course was specifically multiple anterior.

Payman: Oh, really?

Paul Abrahams: That’s the next step. Actually, sometimes I’m still scanning, sending it into the lab because their guys can do it better than I can do it.

Prav Solanki: You’re milling in-house, is that right?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: When you do that, are you actually finishing off the restorations by hand, staining them, glazing them and all that sort of stuff?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. You stain, glaze, polish, stick it in the furnace, great fun. Patients love it. If you’ve got a patient coming and you can deliver something on the spot-

Payman: Do you market the fact that you’re that-

Paul Abrahams: We do. It was hard. It was hard at the beginning, when we first had the scanner because people didn’t really understand. I think it’s becoming more … People are beginning to understand. And you get the most sophisticated form of patients coming in and they see their crown being milled in the milling machine, and they whip their phone out and they’re recording it and sending it to everyone. There’s a little bit of organic growth from that as well.

Prav Solanki: Virality.

Paul Abrahams: Because it’s still-

Prav Solanki: It’s still cool.

Paul Abrahams: I think it’s still cool, and it’s still not enough people doing it. And people are wowed, very simple technology but are absolutely wowed by it.

Prav Solanki: Do you know how today, we’re getting companies that allow patients to do their own ortho.

Paul Abrahams: Great, isn’t it?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Do you think artificial intelligence is ever going to get to a stage where you can cut a dentist out of the loop?

Paul Abrahams: No. I don’t see how that could be. I could see maybe robotic dentistry of some kind, but there’ll still be … Like eye surgery, there’ll still be someone behind that robot. I think AI will make a big difference and we’re seeing it now with the scanners. They’re using AI.

Paul Abrahams: So if you’re, for instance using your scanner and you’re defining your margins on your preps in a software after you’ve done 10, the artificial intelligence will start deciding.

Prav Solanki: Interesting.

Paul Abrahams: I think there’s a lot of changes coming.

Payman: I think it will happen.

Prav Solanki: You do?

Paul Abrahams: You think we’ll disappear?

Payman: When. No. I think there’ll be one dentist doing 10 dentist jobs.

Paul Abrahams: Possibly.

Payman: That sort of thing.

Paul Abrahams: I’ll be long gone when that happens. That’s fine. None of my kids are going to be dentists, so that’s also good.

Payman: Is that right? Would you put them off being dentists?

Paul Abrahams: No, listen, whatever they want to do. But none of them are interested, so it’s not going to happen.

Payman: Would you put them onto it? If they said, “Hey, what’s this dentistry?” would you say, “Yeah, go for it,” or not?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. I think I still would.

Prav Solanki: If you weren’t a dentist, what would you be?

Paul Abrahams: I think I probably would’ve done architecture, something arty.

Prav Solanki: Your artistic background?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Have you seen that helps with the design of the teeth, the staining, the glazing, the passion that you have to-

Paul Abrahams: I think it has to if you … I mean that’s the worst thing when you stand behind someone and they haven’t got the manual dexterity to do what they want to do. Must be so frustrating as well. That’s just got to help.

Payman: So Paul, your practise is on the road that I grew up on, interestingly. And we were talking about it before, it’s an interesting place to work, St. John’s Wood, right?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah.

Payman: And to expect working in a place like that, you have to have a high service element.

Paul Abrahams: Huge. So, what, 26 years in St. John’s wood. It’s like a village in Central London.

Payman: It is.

Paul Abrahams: But a very unique village, very particular people, as you know Pay, just like you really, certainly very demanding, for a real mix. But it took us a good five years to really get that going, and to get the locals coming in.

Payman: 26 years ago, right? So that could be-

Paul Abrahams: Yeah.

Payman: I left there-

Paul Abrahams: ’93.

Payman: Oh, how interesting. Now, I left there in ’88, I left there.

Paul Abrahams: It’s changed. I mean it’s changed a lot as well.

Payman: My parents are still there. But tell me about the service side. Looking at your practise, very boutique, very small, what kind of things do you guys do that maybe is over and above, go beyond-

Paul Abrahams: Sure. Is it what everyone should be doing anyway? Simple stuff. You do a root canal, you give someone a call a couple hours later, “How are you?” It always come down to that basic stuff. I mean we can do all the clever stuff today online and whatever, but that basic touch I think is really important.

Paul Abrahams: If someone sent you someone, thank them for sending you someone. There’s nothing over and beyond, that I think it’s just normal, everyday customer service. I think for years of going on courses, you can hear so many people speak, but they say the same thing ultimately.

Payman: Of course they do.

Paul Abrahams: So I don’t think it changes.

Payman: The way you handle your team’s nice, and when I come to your place, it’s always lovely that everyone … your team seems so relaxed.

Paul Abrahams: Sometimes. We have our moments like everyone else.

Payman: But we’ve been talking about this on another podcast, the question of if you want your team to be lovely to your patients, you’ve got to be lovely to your team. And then not everyone … The reason that not everyone does that-

Paul Abrahams: But isn’t that normal how you look after everyone, how you get on-

Payman: No.

Prav Solanki: No.

Paul Abrahams: I mean it should be, shouldn’t it?

Prav Solanki: It should be.

Paul Abrahams: It should be how you-

Prav Solanki: Treat.

Paul Abrahams: It should be treat people how you’d expect to be treated, I suppose.

Payman: It’s not common because we go to a lot of practises. We go to a lot of practises, and it’s interesting. We see a lot of different … You can feel it from the moment you walk into a practise.

Paul Abrahams: Just the tension, and it’s really sad actually.

Prav Solanki: Or the glow, and you want into a practise and sometimes you can feel the tension, and you speak to the boss and you talk about business strategy, and management of team, and leadership and say, “I pay the money, they do the work.” Personally, I feel money should be the last reason that somebody is stepping through your day. I really do.

Payman: I like that.

Paul Abrahams: 100%.

Prav Solanki: Really do.

Paul Abrahams: I think that absolutely comes last. I think from the moment someone walks in … I mean you know my receptionist or my practise-

Payman: Manoosh.

Paul Abrahams: Sorry, Manoosh, practise manager, she’d kill me for saying receptionist.

Payman: She’s a star.

Paul Abrahams: And she knows she’s got a great persona, great with people. She sat outside the coffee shop, which is now gone, by the way, the red shop-

Payman: Is it?

Paul Abrahams: Outside the front door, and talks to people and they say, “Well, where do you work?” “Well, I work upstairs in the dentist,” and by the end of that conversation, they’re booking in. That’s a unique ability. But we just get on. I just think, honestly, you’ve got treat people in the right way, they treat you in the right way. It’s a mutual respect and-

Payman: It seems obvious to you but it isn’t the case now.

Paul Abrahams: I don’t get it. I-

Payman: I would even in most places. In most places, there’s a them and us between management and the team that’s palpable.

Paul Abrahams: I think sometimes it’s different dynamics. We’re a very small practise, a very small team, and I think that makes that easier. We’ve worked together. I mean Manoosh has been with me 13 years and my nurse, 10, Gina is also for a long time. So it’s a unique dynamic, and I suppose the bigger you get, the easier it is to lose that dynamic.

Prav Solanki: It becomes a lot harder, and so one of the things that just popped into my head, as you mentioned it, do a root canal, give them a call. It’s so simple but they’re not expecting that call.

Paul Abrahams: Correct. It’s a two-second call.

Prav Solanki: I’m working with a practise, eight to 10 surgeries, patients flying in and out, private practise. If I was to suggest that, I’ll be seen as the craziest person.

Paul Abrahams: Why? It only takes one person on the team – doesn’t need to be the dentist.

Prav Solanki: Really? Well, absolutely. No, of course-

Paul Abrahams: Actually, why shouldn’t it be the dentist? If you’re between two patients-

Prav Solanki: I think it should be-

Paul Abrahams: Why can’t you pick up the phone. It takes two seconds. It’s the most powerful phone call in the world really.

Prav Solanki: Just for the listeners out there, could you just describe the impact that that has on, say, referrals, them sticking around as patients long-term?

Paul Abrahams: Well, imagine you phone that patient and they’re sitting in a coffee bar with three of their friends, and they pick up the phone, and they put the phone down and they ask, “Who was that?” “It was my dentist.” “What do you mean? What’s your dentist doing phoning you at …?” “Well, I’ve just had some treatment and he’s phoning to see how I am.” I mean that’s … How powerful was that?

Prav Solanki: Powerful, right?

Paul Abrahams: It’s more powerful than anything. It just makes no sense not to do it.

Payman: We used to do that even 10 years ago when I was a dentist, and the patient would come in the next visit and thank you for the call. It wasn’t even me calling. It was the nurse calling. But-

Paul Abrahams: If it is you doing it, it was even more powerful, wasn’t it?

Payman: Yeah. But do you know the notion of calling new patients before they come in? Have you heard of that?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. I mean I-

Payman: It’s a lovely one.

Paul Abrahams: Anything to make a connection, anything to make that more personal, anything … I think they’re talking about money, this discounting. We were talking about this yesterday in terms of things like Invisalign. In London, it’s so competitive.

Prav Solanki: Crazy.

Paul Abrahams: “Let’s do a 500-pound off.”

Prav Solanki: A thousand pounds.

Paul Abrahams: “Let’s drive this by …” or whatever it might be. That’s not the connection we want.

Prav Solanki: From a marketing perspective, would you say that quite a lot of yours is handled through internal, or do you do a mix of both? Because it seems to me a lot of practises don’t have what I would consider to be a word of mouth strategy. But it looks like yours is already-

Paul Abrahams: One, [crosstalk 00:34:22]-

Prav Solanki: Yours is already baked in.

Paul Abrahams: That’s how it was right from the start. I suppose that’s coming from the guy that I worked with originally because that’s how it was. Do we have a marketing strategy? No. It’s such a different world today, but our strategy was that. Do we do a huge amount of advertising? No, because in those days, you didn’t really.

Paul Abrahams: I mean I suppose it was people in the mid-90s who started to get into that in a big way and benefited hugely. It’s now a different marketplace, isn’t it? I’m struggling with all this social media stuff. That’s a whole different-

Prav Solanki: But your practise is still successful, right?

Paul Abrahams: Touch wood, yeah, somewhere, yeah.

Prav Solanki: And do you put that down to the way you communicate with patients, treat them?

Paul Abrahams: I think it’s all about communication. It’s all about-

Payman: Especially-

Paul Abrahams: Especially in our very small environment.

Payman: Especially where they are.

Paul Abrahams: Especially in St. John’s Wood. One of our big drivers is we’ve got the biggest American School in London over the road. So about 60% of my patients come through that school.

Payman: Oh, wow.

Paul Abrahams: And I’m just going back. In the early days of the internet, I had one American patient who basically put a testimonial online, I mean the days when there was no Google search engines or whatever. You just went on the internet and dialled up, and you put something about-

Payman: AltaVista.

Paul Abrahams: I was being the most American-like dentists that she’s seen in London, and it was great, and that was number one in the search engines for years. It was crazy really because today, that would never happen. And then we became listed on the American School website.

Payman: Amazing.

Paul Abrahams: So we knew people coming would come to us and it’s a-

Payman: What would you say is the difference between American patients and British patients? What’s more likely to go for the-

Paul Abrahams: Yes and no. You know what. I think we’re in a different world today, so I think our English patients are just as driven to do things and do the cosmetic work. And we see people from all over the world, so actually, everyone’s the same. Everyone wants to look nice and have their teeth done right. We’re in a very, very-

Payman: Cosmetic area.

Paul Abrahams: We are. We’re very lucky.

Payman: I think good news travels fast there but bad news does too. Have you ever been on the edge of that?

Paul Abrahams: Absolutely, so yeah. It’s-

Payman: Have you had a problem like that before?

Paul Abrahams: We haven’t really. I mean have we ever upset anyone? I’m sure we have. Has it caused us loss of patients. I hope not. But you’re absolutely right. It’s the old adage, isn’t it? If you do something badly, then someone’s going to tell a whole lot more people than if you do something well.

Payman: Of course. What about associates, Paul?

Paul Abrahams: What about associates?

Payman: I mean-

Paul Abrahams: It’s tricky in my-

Payman: It’s tricky in your situation, isn’t it?

Paul Abrahams: In my situation, again, with the two surgery practise, over the years, we’ve had people come in. It’s always difficult because you make the practise about yourself, and that’s the USP. So to have someone come in one day a week or two days a week is difficult, and I’ve had some great people.

Paul Abrahams: I’m very lucky to be exposed to good, young dentists through connections who have agreed to come and work, and we’ve struggled to get them busy enough.

Payman: But have you been able to instil your principles into young associates?

Paul Abrahams: I’m not sure I’ve had enough time with people. I hope so. It’s about time, isn’t it?

Payman: So now, you’ve just sold this practise.

Paul Abrahams: Just sold into Dentex.

Payman: How does that feel? I mean does it-

Paul Abrahams: Different.

Payman: I mean maybe one day, a giant company will come by and like … and fingers crossed. But the idea of selling it, it does seem like a child. And I don’t know if you feel that way, but is-

Paul Abrahams: Look, I-

Payman: Did you worry about?

Paul Abrahams: You always worry about it. I mean when’s the right time? It’s really difficult to say. A lot of people hang on into their mid-60s and devalue their practise, and not get quite what they deserve to get for it because they’ve run the practise down. I think-

Payman: Were you strategic about the timing? Is that-

Paul Abrahams: I thought I was. It’s all about opportunity. I think someone else approached me to buy, and it was Dentex were in the marketplace, and I knew a few people involved with Dentex.

Payman: You weren’t thinking of buying if someone came to you?

Paul Abrahams: I wasn’t thinking of selling.

Payman: That’s right, [crosstalk 00:38:32]-

Paul Abrahams: Someone else approached me, and then I started looking, and then you know what? It seemed opportune. It seemed a good time, and Dentex seemed a good group, and it’s almost a year and I can say that it’s been good, I’ve enjoyed it and they-

Payman: They’re such an interesting corporate.

Paul Abrahams: They are, very different.

Payman: Explain for everyone-

Prav Solanki: The model.

Payman: The model.

Paul Abrahams: The Dentex model is none of my patients would know that I’ve sold the business into a corporate. I keep everything exactly the same. I think one of the thought processes for me, being a small practise in Central London, we’ve been talking about marketing and how things have changed, and certainly, that has changed hugely.

Paul Abrahams: For me to get penetration in the market in terms of certain treatments, it’s really hard in Central London because there’s some big marketing powers there. People are spending a lot of money. With a group like Dentex, they’ve come in. I’ve still retained a share in the practise, and it varies in the share.

Paul Abrahams: Then we’ve had the benefit of the group, so we’ve got some crossover within the group, got them, helping with marketing and things like that. And they’ve taken all the CQC, all the compliance stuff away, all the HR stuff away from me. It’s great, which is actually the biggest pain in small practise. And it’s been a good experience thus far, so yeah.

Payman: And now, you have some shares in the big operation.

Paul Abrahams: Again, from my perspective, it was a unique opportunity to be in early with a group like Dentex because of the share value at the beginning. I have a percentage tied up in shares and hopefully, the group grows and the business grows, and I’ve got a part of that.

Payman: Is there somewhere you can go up and say, “Let’s see what the price is right now”?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. We can … No, but-

Payman: It’s not traded shares.

Paul Abrahams: It’s not traded shares, but as the group grows, the share value would increase.

Payman: As in you can see that happening?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. I’ve seen that happen already.

Payman: Oh, I see. I like that.

Paul Abrahams: It’s actually unique. I mean it’s a unique opportunity for me to upscale what I have in a very small environment.

Payman: They’re thinking of doubling the number. I was speaking to them-

Paul Abrahams: I think that’s probably where it’s going to go. It’d be interesting to see how it develops in the next two or three years. Everything you do has a risk. I mean that’s what I was saying, it’s probably that. I think I’m a risk taker. It was just opportune.

Paul Abrahams: I suppose in my career, I’ve done things early. In other words, I had kids early and that type of stuff, so I expect to work for another 10 years, however that happens.

Prav Solanki: You’ve got some cash out. You’ve retained shares. Do you still feel like, and do the team still feel like you’re the boss?

Paul Abrahams: I’d have to ask the team. I think that was the hardest part of it, because I’ve worked with these people for a long time, and I think they had an idea something was going on. Initially, we did a little bit of due diligence without telling them. Then we got to a certain point and I had to have that discussion, and they were really upset because they thought things would change dramatically. And actually, maybe they would say it hasn’t changed that dramatically.

Payman: What’s the main thing that has changed?

Paul Abrahams: What’s the main thing that’s changed, is that I don’t go online and spend hours doing iComply. I’m doing payroll at the end of the month, paying the bills. That type of thing, for me, is a physical thing. And there’s been influence from outside. So we’ve had some input from outside which has been interesting.

Payman: Have they ever said that, “Listen, we don’t want you buying that stuff anymore or-

Paul Abrahams: No. We haven’t had that.

Payman: Or that isn’t the thing.

Paul Abrahams: It isn’t the thing.

Payman: I like that.

Paul Abrahams: Which is unique, I think, with corporates.

Payman: Sure.

Paul Abrahams: Whether that change is pay, we’ll see, you know-

Prav Solanki: How about the labs, do you have particular a lab?

Paul Abrahams: No, I use the same lab.

Payman: So nothing has changed today other than you the fact that you don’t have to do payroll.

Paul Abrahams: Nothing, no. Yeah, and all … Yeah.

Payman: I love that.

Prav Solanki: Do you miss anything about not owning the whole business?

Paul Abrahams: No, not at this stage interestingly.

Prav Solanki: Really? Wow.

Paul Abrahams: Maybe that’s not right. I mean sometimes I think something’s gone missing, if that makes sense.

Payman: Do you have to get approval? You can’t now go and buy a [crosstalk 00:42:27]-

Paul Abrahams: No. I mean there has to be approval on things, and I think-

Prav Solanki: Does that happen-

Paul Abrahams: If a material’s over a certain amount, then you can at least get approval for it. If we wanted a particular polishing kit and it’s going to be an excess of X amount, then we would have to ask, it’s not a problem. If it’s reasonable-

Payman: Until they say no.

Paul Abrahams: Well, if they say no, they say no. If they can justify saying no, I’ve got no issue with that actually. It is a business after all, so I suppose in my own mind, if one of my staff came to be before we were Dentex and said, “I want to buy this,” we’d look at it and maybe say no if it wasn’t of value to the practise.

Payman: The benefits of it, I mean are there other benefits other than they take the headaches away from you? Are there conferences-

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. That’s just developing. There’s an educational programme this year. This is a few things we had, so we had a meeting with all the partners, all good people. It’s just that. Having been working on my own for so long, that’s a nice thing to have actually.

Payman: What are some of the other guys, Rahul?

Paul Abrahams: Rahul, so Rahul was a regional partner, regional director.

Payman: Now, Bush.

Paul Abrahams: A guy called Steve Taliz, Mitesh Badiani, he’s got a number of practises. There’s some good people involved, been really interesting.

Prav Solanki: You’re now a associate, is that right? Is that-

Paul Abrahams: I’m working as an associate.

Prav Solanki: You’re working as an associate. Just mentally and just-

Paul Abrahams: It doesn’t affect me mentally. It’s-

Prav Solanki: Does it affect you at all?

Paul Abrahams: Not mentally, no.

Payman: Are you taking more time off?

Paul Abrahams: No, because I was always someone who liked to take time off. Holidays are important to me.

Payman: Did you buy her something nice with the money?

Paul Abrahams: Not particularly.

Payman: Nothing changed.

Paul Abrahams: No.

Payman: I like that.

Paul Abrahams: You know what? Because coming at this … I suppose-

Payman: You don’t take a nice holiday?

Paul Abrahams: We take nice holidays. You know what? For myself and my wife, we like a nice holiday. So even when we were struggling, we were trying … We’ve always taken time off.

Prav Solanki: Nice.

Paul Abrahams: Even if we went … a nice holiday but went somewhere. We like the sunshine, so that’s important to us. And we’ve always tried to do that.

Payman: No brand new Cadillac?

Paul Abrahams: No, no Cadi. But what it does pay is give you a bit of financial security.

Payman: Of course.

Paul Abrahams: I’ve got four kids and it’s been a busy life, and it’s been an expensive life, so to have that at this point in life is good-

Payman: Feels good.

Paul Abrahams: To do. There’s nothing with that. Why should I waste it when I’m 65, 70? I might not be here when I’m 65 or 70. Who knows?

Payman: Tell us about your BACD. Looks like you’re going to be el presidente looking at the way that works.

Paul Abrahams: Who can believe that? Hard to believe really, never thought that would happen.

Payman: When was the first time you got involved with BACD?

Paul Abrahams: This is 10 years ago, I did a … The only time I ever did this, it was a beauty fair, and we had a stand in the booth, we thought we’d try this. Someone suggested to do it, and we ran a competition for Smart Makeover, of this thing. And behind me was Suzie and the BACD was there. If I remember, Sue-

Payman: They were at the beauty fair?

Paul Abrahams: I don’t remember what it was, something, an exhibition and Suzie was behind me and she said, “You know what? We should get involved more.” I’m blaming Suzie now. I’ve been listening to Suzie Rowlands.

Paul Abrahams: And so joined the committee and then at that time, the board was more or less self-elected. There was that core of people that started the BACD and ran the BACD, and then they opened the elections at conference, and I was one of the first to … I was absolutely … I hate standing up and speaking in front of people. At that time particularly, it was one of my words fears, and had to stand for election, and got elected. I don’t know how to this day, but it was one of those things-

Payman: But wait a minute. Who told you to do that? Was it something you wanted to do yourself?

Paul Abrahams: The other person that was great with this was David Bloom. Actually, David said, “I’ll-”

Payman: I’ll put you up.

Paul Abrahams: “Put you up, do it,” so thank you, David. He was-

Payman: But the reason I’m asking is because there’s plenty of people who go to the BACD but never think about going on the board of it, and-

Paul Abrahams: That’s the majority.

Payman: Was it the date that said it’s a good idea? Do you like meetings with committees?

Paul Abrahams: Well, I like that type of thing, actually.

Payman: You do, do you?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, I suppose I did a bit of that as an undergraduate, so I was always involved with student committees and things like that. So just-

Payman: I find them hard. I’ve been on one or two. I find them hard.

Paul Abrahams: It’s not for everyone.

Payman: I find it hard not talking when I want to talk. Have you been on a committee before?

Paul Abrahams: It’s not for everyone.

Prav Solanki: No, but it’s not my thing. It’s definitely not my thing.

Payman: But it’s interesting because the one or two times I’ve been there, you actually do know what’s going to happen in the future before most people.

Paul Abrahams: But you’re also-

Payman: There’s a nice feeling about that.

Paul Abrahams: There’s a fantastic social element with BACD. I mean I made some great friends through … And that’s actually the best part of it, is there are some really good people involved, and it’s just fantastic socially.

Prav Solanki: That’s true.

Paul Abrahams: Really, you know that better than everyone else, that the Enlighten parties are legendary maybe, and that’s a big part of it. That type of stuff-

Payman: Which one was your first conference that you went to? Where was it?

Paul Abrahams: First conference … I went to the second conference somewhere in Central London. I can’t even remember.

Payman: BACD second conference?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah.

Payman: I remember around that time. That was all London.

Paul Abrahams: It was all London.

Payman: How long does it take? If let’s say, some kid wants to become the president of the BACD-

Paul Abrahams: Crikey, yeah.

Payman: How long would it take from day one?

Paul Abrahams: From day one, I went on board … I mean it could take three years actually, or four years if you were to do a committee-

Payman: Really?

Paul Abrahams: Go on board. You’ve got to be on board for two years, and that’s quick. I actually came off board for about 18 months because there was other things going on in my life. I think you’ve got to be really committed to do it. That’s the other thing. You-

Prav Solanki: Time consuming.

Paul Abrahams: It is.

Payman: Well, how much work is it? How much work is it?

Paul Abrahams: It’s really time-consuming.

Payman: Is it? This daily-

Paul Abrahams: It’s all emails every day.

Payman: Really?

Paul Abrahams: When you talk about organising conferences a year in advance and … So there’s certain roles on board, and so I was director of education last year. That’s organising conference, it’s dealing with speakers. It’s time-consuming.

Prav Solanki: This is all voluntary, right?

Paul Abrahams: All voluntary. You know-

Prav Solanki: There’s no financial-

Paul Abrahams: Somehow, people seem to think you get paid for it. It’s totally voluntary.

Payman: You even pay for your ticket for the conference.

Paul Abrahams: Correct.

Payman: That’s interesting.

Paul Abrahams: It is what it is. You do it because you want to do it not because there’s any reward.

Prav Solanki: And so as director of education, do you have to decide who speaks, approach people, right?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah.

Payman: Or is that-

Paul Abrahams: No. That’s pooled resources, but yeah, using the people we know. I mean there’s so many people that have gone through BACD then come out the other end, and I have contacts with speakers. I think of John Coyce this year, and I think of Andy Shandrapal, I think, led that because he’s done it with Coyce and they know it, so through contracts.

Payman: Do you have to get into the nitty-gritty, the fees and all that? Is that your-

Paul Abrahams: Absolutely. There’s a budget. It’s significant.

Payman: And so what’s the difference with one president compared to the next other than the conference?

Paul Abrahams: Personality. People are different.

Payman: But is it real? Does one president really steer it in one direction and another-

Paul Abrahams: I think there has been that, and I think different personalities drive it-

Payman: Where do you plan to steer it then?

Paul Abrahams: Just keep that ship going in the same direction.

Payman: Really?

Paul Abrahams: Just try and keep it as it is, keep out the controversy, keep it simple.

Payman: It’s hard.

Paul Abrahams: It’s hard. There is politics in dentistry, but I think it’s just trying to keep it real. Let’s have decent education, let’s have a decent social element to it, just keep it the same.

Payman: How do you-

Paul Abrahams: It’s been good the last few years.

Payman: Do you go to the other ones as well, the BARD and all that?

Paul Abrahams: I haven’t been to BARD, but that’s something I need to do.

Payman: Because I think it’s important that you don’t end up being us and them.

Paul Abrahams: It shouldn’t. I don’t see why that should … I don’t feel that at all. Is that what you feel?

Payman: No. I think historically, that’s where BACD came from in a way. We’ll have to-

Paul Abrahams: I think there’s a lot of crossover now. There’s people involved with both, and that has been, and I don’t think that’s really an issue.

Payman: It’s actually a really good thing for people to be involved with both because-

Paul Abrahams: But there’s more organisations than BARD and BACD. There’s other things out there and-

Payman: True.

Paul Abrahams: Actually, I think generally, the type of people that get involved with this type of stuff, the people that go to conferences, go to courses, go to all lots of other things.

Payman: What I’m driving at is as a profession, we do seem to be very split, very polarised in many ways. Do you agree with that?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, I do. I don’t necessarily think that’s going to change because that’s society per se. Well-

Payman: Don’t you think it’s worse now than it was before?

Paul Abrahams: Because I think it’s worse in society than it was before. I think what goes on in dentistry reflects what goes on in society. What goes on in so many professions is the same. So we have that divisiveness that exists, and it reflects through everything. I’m not sure that’s a dental-

Payman: Good point.

Paul Abrahams: I don’t think that’s a dentistry problem. I think that’s an issue per se.

Payman: That’s good point actually. What would you like to be remembered for? I mean I know it’s a bit ahead of time, but as a legacy, what would you like your legacy to be?

Paul Abrahams: Well, a dental legacy or a personal legacy?

Payman: Both.

Paul Abrahams: If you say, “He was honest and had ethics and integrity,” I mean nothing special, simple stuff, nothing controversial, I would say. Because sometimes people remember for the controversial stuff, “He did this or stirred up that.” I’m not interested in that type of stuff. It’s not for me.”

Prav Solanki: I had one question earlier. Just right at the beginning of the conversation, you mentioned that you were a course junkie and you’ve done loads of courses. Now, I’m just thinking about the younger listeners out there, and I’ve got a really close friend of mine actually, Danny Watson, who’s recently qualified, and you get presented with this mass of courses and-

Paul Abrahams: Particularly today.

Prav Solanki: “Do this implant course, do this sort of stuff, this is the best,” and blah, blah, blah. Could you impart some advice on a newly qualified or a young dentist in terms of how to get your grounding in dentistry and where you should look for it?

Paul Abrahams: Well, I think you’ve got to be honest with yourself, number one, is what are your own weaknesses? What is it you need to improve every day to make you a better dentist? I suppose number one has to be communication. If you feel that you’ve got issues there, then you’ve got get that right and seek out the … There’s plenty of courses there for that type of stuff.

Paul Abrahams: There’s some really good people out there. Then number two, basic skills. What are you going to be doing every day? Probably most of the time when you first start, you’re going to be filling holes. Well, do it well. Do the best you can, so again, seek out the people-

Prav Solanki: What’s a good, all round, general either dental or cosmetic course?

Paul Abrahams: There’s so many. I mean there’s so many good guys out there teaching. I don’t really want to name anyone particularly. I think that’s a little bit harsh. But there’s some good people. I mean just look for people with experience and background.

Paul Abrahams: I mean I think it’s easy to sources these days. I don’t think it’s difficult, but decide what you want to do because it’s so easy to do 100 different courses. But get basics right.

Payman: Paul, would you say that cliché is true about the newer, younger generation not being as prepared for practise as-

Paul Abrahams: I don’t know, possibly.

Payman: As our generation?

Paul Abrahams: Possibly, but there’s some great, young dentists out there. I mean I’ve seen some incredible, young dentists.

Payman: Me too. But I think they’re actually stronger than most of our generation from the communication standpoint.

Paul Abrahams: Well, I’m sure they are.

Payman: Because with our generation, there was a real stuffiness. I mean not everyone’s like you, I assure you of that. But the clinical, the diagnosis and the clinical, you’ve seen a lot of different-

Paul Abrahams: Well, I think you hear that in medicine and dentistry, that they’re not as good clinically. I’m not sure that’s fair. I think maybe they’re not … I mean it must be much harder coming out today. When we came out, you could set up, you could get on with it. There wasn’t a fear. I mean fear is a big issue in dentistry today for, I suppose, young guys about what they can and can’t do.

Paul Abrahams: You know what? Learning to be a dentist is like to learning to drive. Someone teaches you how to do it, then you’ve got to go out and do it for yourself, and acquire the skill.

Payman: I think due to that course question that you’re asking, Prav, because they come out and want to learn so much, and it is bewildering-

Prav Solanki: It’s a confusing-

Payman: Knowing which courses to do.

Prav Solanki: Confusing mass.

Paul Abrahams: It’s so many, isn’t it? Again, I come back to think you’ve got to be honest with yourself. You’ve got to know in yourself what it is that’s holding you back, what your weaknesses are, and then choose a calling that … I think there’s lots of year courses where you can do more.

Paul Abrahams: I mean I know what happens in FD1 today. Is it like vocational training in the old days where you go one day a week and-

Prav Solanki: I think so.

Paul Abrahams: That’s got to be key to it. And it’s the fear. I think the fear thing is a big problem, people not doing things that they should be doing because they’re scared about doing something wrong.

Prav Solanki: And perhaps if somebody presents you with an opportunity like do an implant course, maybe take it by the horns.

Paul Abrahams: But I mean not today. There’s got to be something else out there, isn’t it?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Paul Abrahams: Well listen, you’ve got to do what you’re … I mean as it happens, it was probably a good thing for me because surgically, I’m not great, and that’s probably the thing that I least like.

Prav Solanki: Least enjoy.

Paul Abrahams: Maybe I could’ve learned that skill but today, keep up out the way as far as I’m concerned. Keep it clean.

Prav Solanki: Do you have somebody coming into your practise doing that for you or refer out?

Paul Abrahams: I had Zaki Kanaan for a while coming in, which was great, great to work with Zaki. Now, within the group, we’ve got people doing that type of stuff and again, I’m looking at someone else to come in and do some implant work in the practise.

Payman: Did Zaki do the implant work with you to help you with your-

Paul Abrahams: No. He placed-

Payman: He’s a roving implantologist, isn’t he, in a lot of practises.

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, he’s green.

Prav Solanki: He’s a good one.

Paul Abrahams: We miss him, Zaki. We miss you Zaki.

Prav Solanki: He’s a good man.

Paul Abrahams: But we’re looking at that again. Again, being in Central London, this guy is so close that it’s easy to refer out and get that done. I restore all the implants.

Payman: I know it’s hard to project that far ahead, but once you are allowed to leave now, do you know what you’re going to do?

Paul Abrahams: I just want to keep going, and whether I work … At the moment, I’m trying to do four days a week. I don’t see myself finishing as long as I’m healthy for quite some time. Wherever that might be, whether it might be in the practise I’m still in, or whether it be somewhere else, and hopefully doing a bit of teaching and lecturing and that type of stuff.

Payman: But your ideal for now would be to stay in the same place even after you-

Paul Abrahams: Yeah, I think so because I’ve got some-

Payman: Is it just because of the work years-

Paul Abrahams: I’ve got some great patients, and we’ve got great staff, and it’s comfortable. I see people. Sometimes I go 10 years, someone walks in and I haven’t seen them for 10 years, and they walk in, and that’s great.

Payman: Really? Wow.

Paul Abrahams: I have some great patients, great people.

Prav Solanki: You hear so many stories of people selling and then just having a real bad time afterwards. It seems like you’re in a really happy place at the moment?

Paul Abrahams: Well, it’s been good.

Payman: I think for now, Dentex … Every Dentex seller I’ve spoken to seems happy, but it is early days.

Paul Abrahams: Look, it can change.

Payman: It does happen with corporates early on.

Paul Abrahams: There’s always a risk with it, again like I said with everything. But I think the key thing is I’m still in the same practise, doing the same things.

Payman: So nothing-

Paul Abrahams: Ultimately, on a daily basis, it’s not really changed. It’s not the dentistry, it’s the people, and we had this conversation. It’s the people. I see some really nice people. I’ve been seeing them for a long time. That hasn’t changed. None of them know that I’ve gone this route.

Payman: Tell us about your spare time. What do you like doing?

Paul Abrahams: Apart from teaching, apart from BACD which takes up most of my spare time?

Payman: Yeah. I see you running even after big Enlighten parties, I see you, bit to the 8 a.m. running.

Paul Abrahams: I like to. Probably that’s the story, got to stay strong. I still play football.

Payman: Oh, do you?

Paul Abrahams: I play Veterans Football now which is in a league, so that’s competitive football, which I’ll keep doing until my knees or hips or something else gives out. I use the gym and I love watching football. That’s a big thing, so got to stay strong.

Payman: What’s your favourite place in the world?

Paul Abrahams: Place in the world? Find me a beach anywhere, nice beach. It doesn’t have to be anywhere particularly.

Payman: Do you tend to go back to the same places on holiday?

Paul Abrahams: We’ve done quite a bit. Well, my son moved to Australia about four and a half years ago, so we’ve been to Australia a couple of times now.

Payman: How is it? Is it good, Australia?

Paul Abrahams: Oh, it’s amazing.

Payman: Is it? Have you been to South Africa?

Paul Abrahams: Not been to South Africa.

Payman: I went to South-

Paul Abrahams: We do go back. We do go back to the same places, if I think about it. But we’re-

Payman: I really feel I’ve got this Australia bug. Have you been to Australia?

Prav Solanki: Never been, but you know what? I know a few people have moved and life is so much-

Paul Abrahams: Do you know what, Prav? I think if I took myself back to when my kids were young, if we would’ve had a taste of that, I think we would’ve gone.

Prav Solanki: Oh, really? Why?

Paul Abrahams: I’m absolutely certain we would’ve gone. Because we love that type of … Given the choice between going to a beach or going skiing, like a lot of people are doing this week, I’d been on a beach.

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Paul Abrahams: Every single time.

Payman: Not everyone says that though. Not everyone says that. Adam Thorne was skiing every time.

Prav Solanki: I’ve never been seeing so I can’t really comment.

Paul Abrahams: I’ve been once.

Payman: When I went to South Africa, I got that feeling of, “I want to live here,” but then, you’ve got all the crime and all that people talk about.

Paul Abrahams: But South Africa is a different issue.

Payman: But I know it’s a unique one, but that’s actually one thing. I’ve got the bug for Australia because it feels like I haven’t been there-

Paul Abrahams: It’s like going back. It’s like going back-

Payman: It’s like South Africa without the crime worry.

Paul Abrahams: It’s an interesting place. It’s a bit quirky. I mean my son lives in Bondi. I mean who’d want-

Payman: Does he?

Paul Abrahams: But you walk down in Bondi and if you’re in your 50s, you feel like, “Whoa, I’m the oldest person on the street,” because everyone is in their 20s, 30s and young families, and it’s got a great vibe. It’s old-fashioned in many respects. It’s like going back, a throwback, but it’s a long way from everything. Geez. It’s a long way to go.

Payman: Did you stop off somewhere on the way?

Paul Abrahams: Yeah. We went via Singapore.

Payman: Stayed a couple of days there?

Paul Abrahams: No, just went through via Dubai.

Payman: That’s a shame, isn’t it? You should stay.

Paul Abrahams: You know what? Just get there.

Payman: The Singapore crowd, man.

Paul Abrahams: Now, you’ll get me going because my younger son, he keeps saying we’ve got to go to Singapore, so I have to do it.

Payman: Well, it’s been lovely talking to you, Paul.

Prav Solanki: Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thanks.

Paul Abrahams: Pleasure.

Payman: Thanks again for being so open and coming over. It’s been really lovely talking.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for sharing. Yeah.

Paul Abrahams: Thanks, guys.

Automated Voice: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Transcript

Payman: What kind of a boss are you?

Sia M.: Hugo Boss.

Speaker 3: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman: So, today we’ve got my good friend Sia Mirfendereski joining us, and I’ve known Sia a long, long, long time.

Sia M.: Many years.

Payman: Many years. And, Prav, you have too-

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Absolutely, we’ve met a few times.

Payman: And, it’s an interesting career you’ve had Sia. But, do you remember the first time you thought I want to be a dentist?

Sia M.: Yes, I do. It was approximately 1983, ’84 I think. My dad was adamant that I should follow in the footsteps of my uncle and become a doctor, as is quite common in our culture to follow a vocation, as opposed to go study some arty course at university. And, funny enough, it was at one of my parents’ evening dinners that we had a family friend whose son had just graduated from Guy’s, and he was doing his houseman year, and he was telling me… As a doctor, and he was telling me about his weeks and what he was doing and the number of hours he was working.

Sia M.: And, the more I kept listening to him about the volume of hours that he was doing, heading towards 90 to 100 hours a week, the more I was shying away from the idea of even thinking of going to do medicine. Not that I was lazy, but I just thought the idea of working 90 hours a week and at the rate that they were working and how difficult it was and how hard the course was, I was slowly thinking to myself, “I’m not quite sure this is really what I want to do long-term.” Although, I was quite science-based, and I was good at the science courses at school, and I thought to myself, “What are my other options?” And then, I started looking at dentistry, but it wasn’t one of things that for years I was keen on working with teeth or anything like that. It’s just one of those things that just happened.

Payman: So, how old were you, like 16?

Sia M.: Yeah, 16, 17. I was… I think even started doing A levels, but I was doing the math, chemistry, biology classic courses to be able to then consider doing medicine. Although at school-

Payman: You’re the youngest, right?

Sia M.: Yes, the youngest of three.

Payman: So, your brother was an engineer.

Sia M.: My brother had already gone to UCL doing civil engineering. My sister followed in the footsteps of my parents to study architecture. And, I was always interested in some aspect of medicine, but at the same time, I always had a very effervescent character and social character. And, the more I kept listening to this guy, and he was a good family friend’s son, the more I was thinking, “I’m not quite sure that’s what I want to do.” And, I think I feel into dentistry as option B, and that’s where it all started.

Payman: Were you boarding school?

Sia M.: I was at boarding school when we first came here for a year and a bit. And then, I became a day boy.

Payman: And so, you went to London Hospital.

Sia M.: I went to the London Hospital before it got its royal stamp. Started off in 1986, the dental school, and it all started from there.

Payman: You stayed on there to teach.

Sia M.: No, what I did is I qualified in 1991. I briefly went and worked in a practise in Essex. Then, I went back to get a letter of good standing or whatever from one of my old tutors, and it just so happened that him and his wife who have a practise in south London had a vacancy, and he asked me if I was keen to go and work at his practise, and that’s Dr. Eddy Lynch, who’s now Professor Edward Lynch. And, I started working there in one of his surgeries that I now own in south London in 1992.

Sia M.: I then through his guidance decided to do an MSC at the London between ’93 and ’95, and that’s when I got approached by the oral surgery department because they’re always very keen on me doing oral surgery and medicine to teach the undergrads from 1995, but I was not too keen on going and being double qualified and going and doing another 5 years of medicine as it was back then. Nowadays, I’m not quite sure what I think people can skip the preclinical years, but they still have to do the clinical years, and that wasn’t part of my biology as it were. But, I did teach undergraduates and postgraduates oral surgery between ’95 to about 2002, and at the same time, because I was doing an MSC, I started teaching restorative for the undergraduates and then post graduates in the same year bracket as it were.

Prav Solanki: How much of an influence was Eddy Lynch on your career trajectory and pathway. We’ve heard from a few people today who say that first mentor or that – you talked about him giving you guidance – almost shapes your career path. What influence did he have on you?

Sia M.: Eddy had a lot of influence in the sense that I had quite a tough last 6 months of my dental programme, and it was back then when one of the subjects was separate to finals, and I was struggling to get past that. Having, not cruised, through the first 4 years, but I was always passing the exams, but I struggled with prosthetics for some reason. I think also because I fell in love, and I wasn’t really studying as I should’ve been. So, after having failed, I then took a while to pass that exam, and I was at a time that I was thinking, “Is this really what I want to do?” And, it was when VT wasn’t compulsory, and I got put back 6 months, which was quite hard hit for me to take personally.

Sia M.: But, when I approached Eddy, who was my restorative teacher, he said to me, “What you want to do in these 6 months is use the time on the clinic.” Because I’d passed so many of the other exams. I just had to pass the final exam and prosthetics, which I did together. And, he said to me, “what you want to do is use these 6 months, as opposed to all your friends who qualified in December, now that you’re going to hopefully qualify in July, use these 6 months to gain extra clinical experience, so that you don’t have to go and then do VT.” And, that was a huge, huge thing which he got me to do, and I was doing more complicated restorative work, crown and bridge work, which at undergraduate level was unusual to do unless you were one of the high-flying students. But, easy to do because you passed the exam, so you had more clinical time.

Sia M.: And, that allowed me to enter practise without having to do VT, and from a experience point of view, when I would sit down with my friends who had qualified 6 months earlier, after I finished, we were all pretty much at the same level, so I was very indebted to him for giving me that advice and also strongly giving me the confidence to stick at it and not give up, and don’t worry about the fact that you failed and exam. And, I’m sure the second time around or whatever, you’ll pass it. Use the time carefully. So, that was very, very influential. And, hence, why I went back to him to get a letter, so that I could apply for another job, and it all rolled on from there because he had a vacancy with his wife in one of their offices, and I never looked back.

Prav Solanki: What is he like as a boss?

Sia M.: Pretty different to what it was like as a tutor. As a tutor, you had to rewrite essays about three times. But, as a boss, it was mostly his wife who was the boss. He had more of a background role, because he was tutor at the London, and his wife… She was a wonderful lady. Sadly, she’s no longer with us. Sad story, but a wonderful lady. Very kind and both of them very accommodating. Very nice bosses to have more like friends and right now, he is one of my very close friends, and I hold them in very high esteem.

Payman: How long was it before you decided I want to go out on my own, open a practise?

Sia M.: I stayed as an associate, unlike most of my friends because I really enjoyed the time off that I used to have, and my cousin that you know very well, used to always label the famous 17-day trips that I’d go and see him in the US two or three times a year. Which, I still have very, very fond memories of, and I didn’t like the idea of taking the responsibility of having my own practise, and I delayed it and delayed it until I got my postgraduate work done in ’95, and then I eventually got onto the specialist register for prosthodontics. Sadly, I didn’t get onto the oral surgery one, which was a bit of a controversy, but I’ll come back to that if you ask me later.

Sia M.: And, around 1999, 2000 as I got into my 30’s I thought, “Right, it’s about time that I start,” and I was a specialist, I came across a colleague who had a practise that he was thinking of moving from in central London in Wimpole Street, and I jumped in, started at Wimpole Street. I was still working part time with Ed’s practise and his wife’s, and slowly I cut that down and focused more and more on Wimpole Street-

Payman: Did you start it, or did you buy it?

Sia M.: I bought it. He had a pool of patients, but he was honest enough, and he was also a tutor at the London, to say that he wasn’t retiring. He also had another practise in Richmond. And, the commute was long, and if I’m not mistaken, had started a family and it was very difficult for him to be in Wimpole Street, teaching and in Richmond. So, I knew full well that a bunch of his patients were likely to be moving with him to Richmond. So, I inherited a pool of patients, and I also had a pool of patients myself, which were happy to come from south London. And then, slowly but surely just built it, and one of my ex colleagues, who used to have a practise in Cavendish Square always used to tell me in the west end, it will take you a year to build up a day, so it took a good two or three years to get this up and running.

Payman: That must have been nerve wracking.

Sia M.: It wasn’t easy.

Payman: The costs are quite high.

Sia M.: Yeah. Costs were high, but at least you didn’t have the compliance stuff that’s going on now, where the one man bands up and down Wimpole and Harley Street I know for a fact are really struggling or have gone because the costs have gone so high. I’m not saying incorrectly. That’s just the world that we live in these days, so you have to tick all the boxes, and a lot of people now have joined or they’ve got two or three chairs, so that they can spread these costs. But yeah, it was definitely a challenge the first two or three years, which led to the fact that I then started a practise up the road in Baker Street, because I had a shop front. Because, Wimpole and Harley Street, as you know full well, there’s no shop front. So, there’s no walk in trait. A lot of it was through referrals, my ex-students, and then when I purchased the practise near Baker Street, that one had a shop front, and then I would do promotional offers, et cetera, et cetera. So, I collected a few other patients through that.

Payman: So, the whole process of starting, you talk about opening up a dental practise like buying a Mars bar from a shop. It seems like it’s just… We all know it’s not, but it seems like quite a simple process. Talk us through what happened. You had this practise in Wimpole Street. You then go and purchase a practise in Baker Street, you’re juggling two babies-

Sia M.: It was a squat practise. It was one of my patients who had this building in Baker Street, and the ground floor was a mini cab office, and I think with the mini cab office, the tenants he was getting were clearly not happy because mini cab offices pre Uber days were 24/7/ trade, especially on the weekends, where you get people strolling out of pubs, et cetera, et cetera. Wasn’t good for him, so he was delighted about the fact that there was a chance that he could change it from a mini cab office to a dental practise, which has got much more set hours. So then yeah, I started that as a squat practise.

Sia M.: That was definitely a challenge, but the fact that I had a shopfront, and I designed it, I think, in a very nice manner. So, it did attract a lot of new patients, and the patients that were then appropriate to then take to Wimpole Street for more specialist, I did, and at that time, I found another professional partner who had different skills in being a specialist in endodontics and vast experience in implantology. So, it was a good area to be able to get the patient, the walk in trade, and then take them down towards Wimpole Street because I always find the problem with the Wimpole and Harley Street practises are the lack of walk in trade and you’re relying on referrals, and referrals even then had started to dwindle as more and more practitioners who had high street practises were bringing in specialists in their own offices to carry out specialist work, and the referrals were diminishing as it were.

Prav Solanki: Back then, your Baker Street practise was the majority of your new business coming because you had a shopfront presence-

Sia M.: Yes.

Prav Solanki: That was-

Sia M.: Definitely.

Prav Solanki: Was there any marketing?

Sia M.: Did I do any marketing? I did. I did a lot of brochures. I did a lot of leafleting. I did some adverts in the local newspaper. Back then, foolishly, I wasn’t doing nay website. I wasn’t doing any marketing through website, and I didn’t even understand the power of how that would work. But, just through local advertising, local marketing, and having offers, keeping the cost of the consultation, keeping the cost of the initial examination low, and with my relationship with Enlighten, having teeth whitening offers certainly helped bringing in the walk in trade.

Payman: When was it? You started lecturing for us, I remember. When was it in that time that you opened Baker Street? Remind me.

Sia M.: I opened the Baker Street one, if I’m not mistaken, around 2002. And, we started working together in the initial days… Was it 2004? 2005?

Payman: 5.

Sia M.: 5?

Payman: 5, 6. So, your Baker Street one, explain this to me. You spend some money. You set the place up. There’s no patients.

Sia M.: No patients.

Payman: How long did it take before it was busy two days a week.

Sia M.: Not long. A few months. But, I did have a lot of offers, and I’d done a bit of homework. There weren’t that many practises in that region. It was a bit further up from Baker Street, up on Gloucester Place. I don’t know if you know it. I think Frances Holland’s junior school has a branch there. The walk in trade, it was good. And, I think the whole thing about teeth whitening was really expanding. It was pre the home kit, so it was all the light activated ones, and because I would offer it at what I felt was a discounted rate, it brought in a lot of patients through the promotions that I would have through leafleting and advertising in the local newspapers.

Payman: You sold that practise when?

Sia M.: Sold it in 2007, but I sold it because the professional partner that I had who was the specialist in endodontics and implants, not a specialist in implant, but I’m sure you understand what I mean. We got busier and busier at Wimpole Street, and our referrals started to get more and more. And, it then became too much for me to handle, and I put it on the market through a Frank Taylors, and I was offered what I thought was enough to pay me back what I’d put in it and more. I actually got a generous offer, which I was delighted with. Happy days as it were.

Prav Solanki: That practise still there?

Sia M.: Yes, it is. I actually walked past it the other day. It’s not got the same name. I’m sure it’s the same owner. But yeah, it’s still there. Had a lot of interesting because people wanted to purchase it.

Payman: What’s the name of the practise now?

Sia M.: Ivor Dental, I believe. On Gloucester Place.

Payman: How’s that feel when you walk past a place that you started, and it’s still there all those years later? Do you get a sense of fulfilment that I did that?

Sia M.: Kind of, but I didn’t think that I took it as far as it could’ve. I felt that I had to go because my commitments back at Wimpole Street got more and more, but I got the right offer for it, and I wish the chapter took it on all the best. And, the fact that it’s still there, because it’s not on Baker Street high street itself. It is off Gloucester Place, but never the less, it has a shopfront, so the fact that it’s there, I’m sure they’re doing very well.

Payman: So, you’re the dentist for Chelsea Football Club, and you said-

Sia M.: Dental consultant. There’s no formal title, and I’ve always shied away from that.

Payman: Yeah.

Sia M.: It’s more the go-to person in terms of dental advice. It all started from-

Payman: Yeah, how did that start? So, I know you’re a football nut.

Sia M.: That’s a bit harsh, but I’ll come back to that. Guru.

Payman: Watch this. Watch this. What was the score in the FA cup final in 1978?

Sia M.: FA Cup Final 1978?

Payman: Yeah.

Sia M.: Ipswich down one, Arsenal nil. Roger Osborne. Is that right?

Payman: I’m Googling it right now.

Prav Solanki: I think if you are right, then nut is definitely the right-

Sia M.: Guru, guru.

Payman: No seriously though he-

Prav Solanki: Is it right?

Payman: You ask him another question while I check this out.

Prav Solanki: I don’t know enough about football.

Payman: Go on, explain how you got into the football thing.

Sia M.: Not by knowing the stats, no.

Payman: He’s right, he’s right.

Sia M.: Osborne goal scorer. One nil Ipswich.

Payman: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Payman: One nil Ipswich.

Sia M.: Anyway. I used to play a lot of rugby at school, and I had a bad accident during a game, and I nearly broke my neck, so when I went to uni, because back there in your other forms, rugby was always very much looked upon, and London had a very big rugby team. I’m not saying that was the reason that they let me in, but I started playing football at the London, and the football team was predominantly nurses and physios. Most of the people that came to the medical and dental school had a private school education and predominantly played rugby, so there wasn’t that many of the male students that were footballers.

Sia M.: But, the football team had a big old boys unit, and we would always get together in Cambridge or near Cambridge for a day of golf or tennis and plenty of beers for the FA Cup Final. And, a lot of the guys who then graduated as physios started getting jobs be it assistant at Tottenham, assistant at Ipswich, Crystal Palace, and eventually in the mid 90s, good friend of mine, Mike Banks, became the Chelsea physio. And, for years, he always used to say to me, “Sia, if ever you open up a practise in Fullham Broadway, let me know.” I didn’t open up a practise in Fullham Broadway, but by the time I got onto the specialist list, he was still at the club, and I sent him an email saying, “Mike, I’m not in Fullham Broadway, but I’ve got a private practise in Wimpole Street.” Footballers were all beginning to get the image of pop stars, and they wanted their own privacy in that little quiet waiting room in the back as opposed to a shop front with a waiting room with 4 or 5 other people.

Sia M.: And, I sent him an email saying this is where I am. If ever you need me, call me. And, they had some dental issue literally that weekend that I’d sent him the email, and one of the players had had a bad elbow in the face and had some dental issues. And, I fixed him, and then slowly one by one, the odd player started trickling in, and I came up with the idea of dental management, and sports but particularly with the football of having screens and making sure that the players were dentally fit. And, it took off from then. I then set it up so that the players would have a dental screen. It wasn’t compulsory if they choose to have it. Otherwise, if they chose not to have it, we would put into their medical records. And, it started from then.

Payman: But, did you formalise it? Did you talk to the club?

Sia M.: I talked to the club about it, yes. I talked with the medical staff, and there was an incident in 2004/5 prior to a semi final game between Chelsea and Liverpool, where I got a call from the medical secretary saying we have an emergency. And, I thought, “Gosh, I hope I didn’t miss anything.” And, she said, “No, it’s a member of the opposition.” And, funny enough, the manager of the opposition was convinced that I was a Chelsea fan, and I was going to maim this guy. And, naturally, I acted professionally and to this day, I still get nail for acting professionally because they beat Chelsea, but anyway.

Sia M.: What I found out was that the player involved had actually had a dental issue and had not seen it through. He was at a temporary phase, and because he hadn’t seen it through, hence this issue had developed prior to a game. And, Chelsea had just changed Chief Medical Officer, so I approached the new medical officer. And, I said to him, the background of this, and I said I’m sure the last thing you want having now walked into a new club as prestigious as Chelsea was, and they were going through their boom of the early [inaudible] years of wanting to have this hanging over your neck. If a player’s got a problem, where clearly it’s the player’s responsibility, how about if we offer players to have a dental screen? And then, if they decline to have it, it’ll go in their medical record, so heaven forbid, in the morning of a important match or an evening of an important match, if a player has a dental issue, we look back in the medical slash dental records and see if the player was given every opportunity to have the issue resolved and they hadn’t, it’s the player that gets fined and not have everything crack on the medical officer’s head, which is effectively what happened at Liverpool. Because I do know that the medical team there got nailed. But, when you looked at it, it was actually the player’s responsibility. So, it started from there. And then-

Payman: So, that’s become the pitch that you used for-

Sia M.: Pretty much. And, I think then it expanded through to the academy, so I now do mostly of the academy, and I’ve also got a colleague now who helps out with me with the ladies’ team and the first team predominantly. And, I’m happy seeing the junior players, because after a while, it’s quite a responsible job to have, and as much of a football guru that I am, it is quite limiting in the sense that on the weekends, it does limit your chance of going away for a brief holiday or anything like that. And, I was up until this year, predominantly unless it was international break, I would make sure that I was always around in London. I wouldn’t travel with the club, and I don’t sit in the dugout. It’s not like a dental injury occurs.

Payman: Does the club pay, or do the players pay?

Sia M.: If it’s any dental issue that’s football related, the club pays. If it’s anything aesthetic, cosmetic requirements, wives, girlfriends, et cetera, obviously then it’s the player’s responsibility.

Prav Solanki: What’s it like treating celebrity footballers? I know some people, some dentists, who treat footballers up north. And, the general consensus I get from them is that they don’t respect their appointments, turn up, and think they’re incredibly special. And, much, much harder to deal with and higher maintenance than, say, Mrs. Smith down the street. What’s your experience?

Sia M.: There’s definitely a point about that, but I think because of the number of years that I’ve been there, I’ve become a bit part of the furniture. So, there is a level of I always say to the Chief Medical Officer, or whoever’s in charge on that day and at the moment there’s a chap who’s more of the head physiotherapist, and I always say, “Guys, whenever there is a new player in town, as long as you do the introduction, I will then make sure that I gain that level of trust if the player wants to give it, and to make them understand what the whole point about the screening is.” And, therefore, because I have a setup for just a consultation at the training ground, not for treatment as it were, but just for consultation, it breaks the ice. Of course, you’re always going to get the prima donnas who will last minute change their mind, et cetera. But, I think what I try and do is as a dental officer, make sure that the chief medical officer and the people in the know are aware that such player needs X and Y done. And, I usually try to put them towards the end of the day in the sense that if they suddenly cancel at the last minute or they don’t turn up, I just go home. It’s not the end of the world.

Payman: Do you ever get starstruck by treating one of your heroes? Does that ever happen?

Sia M.: Well, funny enough, because I’m a Nottingham Forest fan, when I first started it, it wasn’t as it I was a fan of Chelsea Football team. Over the years, naturally because you have this link with them you are obviously then going to be following them. And, I do support them quite avidly now. In the early days, definitely. But, they are all human beings, and the one thing that I think helps is if you know a little bit about football and you’ve got a good personality, so you know the banter, you know the sort of things to say, I think that goes a long way.

Payman: They appreciate that.

Sia M.: The appreciate it. There was a player who came in, he’s actually a very good pal of mine now after all these years. And, as he walked in, of course I was a bit starstruck, and I had a chat with him about his history, and the fact that he found out that I knew who he played for in Portugal, a team called Boavista, so it’s not one of the standard Benfica or Sporting Lisbon or Porto. He looked back and straight away you build that level of trust, and the banter goes a long way in the sense that if you don’t have that, they also don’t know who you are, and it doesn’t break the ice. So, that certainly helped. And then, I think because I’ve been there for so many years, that barrier, I think, was broken.

Sia M.: The thing I find now, which is nice, because I have a colleague who helps with the first team, is as I’ve got older, when I first started, most of these players were maybe 4, 5 years younger than I am. And then, maybe 10, 12 years, so that generation gap hadn’t happened, so you still have that camaraderie, and they still know the same music or whatever. Whereas nowadays, some of them are so young, they could be my kids, so that barrier is a little harder to now fill. Hence, why the work that I now do with the academy I enjoy a lot because they’re so much younger, and they haven’t become super stars yet. They are definitely there waiting to learn and listen and they follow all the instructions that they need to from a dental point of view, and they get terribly excited when certain facts I know about them, and they haven’t even made it yet. They’re a 17, 18 year old, in the academy team, and yet I know what position they play, and-

Payman: I bet you reckon you’re quite good at spotting future stars then.

Sia M.: Yeah, I think so.

Payman: Who are they?

Sia M.: Callum Hudson-Odoi.

Payman: Callum Hudson?

Sia M.: Callum Hudson-Odoi

Payman: Oh, [inaudible]

Sia M.: He’s a football player. He’s definitely a special talent.

Payman: How old is he?

Sia M.: 18, I think. 17, 18. Very special talent. And, there’s a few others in the pipeline who if you ask me, if they keep their head down and remain focused, I think the problem with football, in my opinion, is too much too young. How ambitious would you be paid, or how ambitious would you be if at that age, you were earning 20, 25 grand a week? At that age? If you’re earning over a million pounds at the age of 17, 18, where is the ambition to want to become the future Cristiano Ronaldo or whoever is earning 4,500 grand a week when you’re earning that amount of money, and I think-

Payman: Well, that’s interesting, isn’t it?

Sia M.: Yeah, something-

Payman: Yeah.

Sia M.: Needs to give for the good of football, I think. There needs to be a pot, a bit like the American sports, where they have the college, and there’s a fund, and there’s a pot where all this money goes into. So, it keeps their ambition. And also, for the poor kids that don’t make it because there’s a lot of them that don’t make it. A lot of people of what footballers earn, but if you’re in that environment, and you see so many come and go like I have, so many of these youngsters coming and going, and imagine suddenly at the age of 20, 21, you’re not even being picked by a league two or a non-league outfit with little education, where are you going to go?

Payman: What happens to footballers when they retire? Do they get depressed like actors, famous-

Sia M.: Hard for me to-

Payman: What happens to them?

Sia M.: Hard for me to comment because I don’t know it that well, but yes. I have heard that. That they can get depressed and not having-

Payman: Limelight and-

Sia M.: Exactly, and X amount of people following you in a stadium, especially if you’re a superstar. I’m sure it has that moment for sure.

Payman: You’ve got the football. How much of your life, how much of your week, your month, is devoted to the football bit?

Sia M.: I used to do one day a month. Now, I do one day every 6 or 7 weeks, because I split it-

Payman: At the football-

Sia M.: At the training grounds.

Payman: Grounds.

Sia M.: And then-

Payman: They come to you otherwise?

Sia M.: Yeah, then they come to me for their treatment. I now deal mostly with the academy, as I said. And, there’s plenty of work that they need doing, and they don’t really have a say in terms of whether they’re going to come or not, because if they are having any form of a dental issue, it’s compulsory for them to pretty much come, and if they don’t come, it works against them. Whereas with the first team, there’s a little more leeway, and I try and shy away from that a bit now.

Payman: What are some of the nuances of working on Wimpole Street? What’s the best thing about it? What’s the worst thing about it?

Sia M.: I think the prestige and the address.

Payman: People you think a patient that comes in and is more likely to want comprehensive care because they’ve come to Wimpole Street?

Sia M.: I don’t think nowadays anymore. Certainly maybe when I first started, the fact that I was also a specialist registered. I certainly think that helped. I think with the whole digital marketing, I think the fact that dental practises being designed, at first by architects and whoever nowadays. There are really nice looking flash dental practises up and down the country that I think provide very high standard of dentistry. And, Wimpole had Harley Street, in my opinion, no longer hold that prestigious address. Maybe for the patients who are foreigners, it still has that mystique of being the crème de la crème, but I wouldn’t think so.

Payman: And, what’s the worst thing, the fact that you don’t get the walk-by traffic?

Sia M.: Definitely. That’s clear, so you need to rely on your pool of referring practitioners, and your pool will get less and less, in my case I find because I stopped teaching in 2002, and most of my referrals came from my graduates who then went into open practise. And, they would refer patients, but now most of them are pretty much very experienced practitioners, so probably doing most of the work themselves, and quite rightly so. That’s why they are dental practitioners.

Prav Solanki: Sia, you mentioned earlier about not getting on the oral surgery-

Sia M.: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Specialist list, and you had a little story about that.

Sia M.: Yeah, sad one really, and I’m not happy being on the prosthodontics specialist list, and I say that because every dentist is a crown and bridge specialistic. It’s a common understanding, and it’s something that I think is not given the credit that it should be. The reason I was disappointed was that I taught oral surgery for 7 years, and I was at a level of higher than registrar, the fact that I couldn’t be given a higher label than that was that I wasn’t double qualified. I unfortunately, when the grandfathering system came from the GDC to go on to the specialist register-

Prav Solanki: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Sia M.: There was a end date, and I was just a bit carefree, and not lazy, but I just didn’t send the application in enough time, and there were definitely people who were teaching far shorter than I had who got grandfathered on. Then, at the very end when I applied, they were being very difficult and not understanding as to how can I be a specialist in prosto and a specialist in surgical dentistry. So, I had to go and present my case at the GDC panel, and I took the head of department from London with me, Dr. Anne Aitkin, lovely lady for her, and a couple of other referees to explain why I should be on it. But, the panel was one from community dentistry, one from paediatric dentistry, and they just couldn’t see eye to eye, so I got the prosto one, but I should’ve challenged it, because my surgical dentistry, I still think is, if not as strong, stronger. And, in my NHS practise, I had a minor oral surgery contract because of my clinical skills for oral surgery, so I’m still a bit disappointed that I’m not on that list.

Prav Solanki: All because you filled an application form out too late?

Sia M.: In my opinion.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Sia M.: Because there were people that were teaching oral surgery for far shorter than I was-

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Sia M.: Who applied for the application, and they got on it, so I thought this is going to be a walk in the park, and I just applied a bit too late. But, funny enough, one of my colleagues who taught me oral surgery at the London, applied. He got rejected, and he had to go through the whole panel thing, but his focus was mainly on surgical dentistry, and he eventually fought it and got it. My one, I was a bit naïve, and I just thought, “Well, you know what? I’ve got the proto one. Maybe that’s good enough.” But, looking back on it in hindsight, as I said, tongue in cheek, every dentist is a crown and bridge specialist. We’re a surgical dentistry specialist carries, in my opinion, a lot more weight.

Prav Solanki: Do you think it would’ve shaped your career in any different way, or do you think you’d be in a different place right now?

Sia M.: Quite possibly. Maybe I’d be doing more implant placements, as opposed to doing implant restorations.

Prav Solanki: Just by having that title?

Sia M.: I’m a very cautious person.

Prav Solanki: Right.

Sia M.: I only practise things that I think that my credentials allow, and I don’t sale close to the wind. I’m very particular about that, and if somebody looks you in the eye and says, “Are you a specialist in this?” I’m not one of these practitioners that tries to-

Prav Solanki: Wing it.

Sia M.: Disguise… They’ll wing it. I’m not. And I think had I been, I would’ve been a bit more, not daring, but a bit more-

Prav Solanki: Confident.

Sia M.: Yeah, confident to say go and do the whole surgical side, because that’s what I’ve been labelled as a specialist. But, because I didn’t have that… Being a dipsy or a dentist with special interests, for me, is just not strong enough if ever you hit any complications. So, yeah. Quite possibly.

Payman: Yeah, me and Sia have had a long time disagreements on the doctor title for dentists. Long time, long time-

Sia M.: Because we’re not doctors.

Payman: He doesn’t think we’re worthy.

Sia M.: No, no. Not worthy is-

Payman: You just… wanna be doctor.

Sia M.: Your way of putting words in my mouth. Nothing you do had not been worthy. We are misters, because we’re dental surgeons.

Payman: Yeah, yeah.

Sia M.: And, as you know in the medical world, when they become surgeons, they revert from being a doctor back to a mister. And, if you call them doctors, they actually get upset. Us, in my opinion, being called a doctor is being a life-saver. I don’t consider us as life-savers.

Payman: I do. When you get those teeth really white, you’re saving lives.

Sia M.: Saving a life. You’re saving a life, interesting. We may have to come back to that off-air. Saving lives. I don’t think that’s life-saving. Making life more pleasant, sure. But, life-saving-

Payman: I find interesting-

Sia M.: Do you whiten someone’s teeth who’s having a cardiac arrest?

Payman: No.

Sia M.: No, so you’re not saving a life, are you?

Payman: I think what I find interesting about you, the fact that you’ve got the specialist hat, if you like, the football hat, and then chess interest. It’s very interesting that you’ve got all those different things. You’d expect someone who’s got the specialist thing going on… your other practises would be a private practise. But, I think knowing you well, I think you’re the kind of person who can relate to the king or Jordan, and to the guy cleaning the building or whatever. What is that? What’s that word for that kind of person? Talk to anyone?

Sia M.: The person who’s stacking shelves in Ireland? That poor lad? That you got nailed on. Anyway, that’s another story.

Payman: But, what is that.

Sia M.: Definitely.

Payman: Definitely that guy.

Sia M.: Definitely so. I find that I can relate to all types of people. I found the NHS window… It all dropped in my lap in 2005, and it was part of a surgery slash property. My ex-boss was wanting to sell this practise that I was working in up until 2001, two, because I was working part-time then at Wimpole Street. And, the offer came to buy that practise, but because the building was also involved, inadvertently, I thought, “That’s one that I show a lot of interesting in.” Cut out agent’s fees, we agreed on a fee, and it was just when the new contract was about to happen on the NHS, and I had a gut feeling in side, and I wish I had the balls to borrow more family money and buy a chain of these practises. I had inside information about the new contract, and if you were bright enough, you could figure out that the government was going to put a ceiling on the volume of new NHS practises. And, the reason why I got into it was I felt the value of NHS practises was going to rocket, because no more squat NHS practises were about to be allowed to start. That’s how I fell into it.

Sia M.: And then, I bought one. I sold one. The one that I currently have, because it’s in a very gentrified area, and I have to thank my ex-receptionist and nurse for many, many years ago, a surgery in east Dulwich which technically was Peckham, not that there’s anything wrong with Peckham. Peckham is actually very trendy now, but when I first graduated, and I worked there, I was glad I got to my car alive. It was not a very pleasant area at all. And, it’s become extremely gentrified. A lot of yummy mummies, as they’re called. A lot of young professionals spill over from Dulwich village, where mums and dads used to live, but they can’t afford to live there, and it’s not spilled into east Dulwich, so there is a lot of patients who want and feel they have the right for NHS access. But, if you were in a affluent enough area, they are definitely willing to listen to the, as you say… What is it, the shake and prize that goes with it, or what’s that phrase that you sometimes say?

Prav Solanki: Do you want fries with that?

Sia M.: Exactly. So, it definitely helps, and I find I take quite a high volume of my implant patients that come through the walk-in and/or existing patients of that practise because the practise has become so gentrified, so much so that I was running a stat on it recently. When I qualified there, the volume of benefits patients that I had I’d say was over 90, maybe even 95%. I think it’s less than 5% now in that area, and I think that’s the key if you want to have an NHS practise and why their values are so high and why the value of their private intake is multiplied higher than, say, if you just owned a private practise. If you’re getting a practise valued because you’ve got NHS access. You’re always going to have that contract value. You’re always going to have the guaranteed income.

Sia M.: Whatever happens with a new contract. I can’t imagine it changing much considering the stink that we’re involved with, Brexit, and all the uncertainty with governments. I can’t imagine a new government, be it labour or the conservatives wanting to change the dentistry world so much to upset the general public. You need to just spot out where your dental practise is. If it’s in an affluent enough area, and yet you’re offering NHS access, I think is my success. I’m not saying it works for everyone.

Payman: But, two totally different ways of working. With the private, you’re having to invest in marketing not knowing whether you’re going to be busy in a couple of weeks’ time. And, with the NHS, the opposite situation, where you know you’re going to be busy, but you can’t spend the money.

Sia M.: Don’t underestimate the power of SEO.

Payman: Yeah.

Sia M.: And, my practise in Dullich is not on the high street. It’s down one of the streets upstairs to a pharmacy. When I bought it, it was a one man practise. It was barely working three days a week. It had the volume to expand. Now, it’s three chairs, so that’s 15 slots Monday to Friday of which three are now taken by hygienists, including evenings. And, the others are by dental practitioners. I work there occasionally. I’ve been doing more hours recently because I had to cover for one of the associates that left, and I didn’t find the appropriate one to replace, but-

Payman: What do you look for when you’re hiring an associate?

Sia M.: You live and learn. You can’t go by their interview there and then. They’re hard to find a good one. References certainly helps. Their qualifications, their interests, and you ask them key questions about what their interests are, what weaknesses they have, which particular area are they weak in. And, what volume of work have they done, be it endodontics, be it crown and bridge work, and what’s their estimate number of UDAs that they would do. It’s easy to have 30 patients a day and do 30 UDAs, for example. If you’re just doing check-up, out, check-up, out, check-up, out. That’s not the kind of person that you’re looking for. You’re not looking for someone whose practising unethically either. It’s not easy, but I’ve learned the references go a long way, definitely.

Payman: Do you check those? You call-

Sia M.: I call up. Oh yeah.

Payman: You talk to those?

Sia M.: Oh yeah, I physically call, and I will persist on speaking to at least two if they can provide it, and if they don’t provide it, that’s usually a bad sign. Because, you get good ones, you get hungry ones, and then you get ones that are just drifters. It’s important to try and find the right one.

Payman: What kind of a boss are you?

Sia M.: Hugo Boss.

Payman: Nice diversion. What kind of boss are you?

Sia M.: I think I’m a fair boss. Funny enough, I always compare it to being a football manager. As you know, I’m a football guru, as you said. But, you have to manage all sorts of personalities. I’ve got in my team, three part-time associates, two part-time hygienists, and about 4 auxiliary staff, and it’s always the way that the auxiliary staff consider themselves on par, and perhaps they should, with the dental practitioners and the hygienists. And yet, the dental practitioners always think that they are one level higher than the auxiliary staff. They may be in terms of clinical education, but in terms of the standing within the hierarchy of the practise, they’re not, but it’s very difficult to manage them and keep them all happy. And, that comes through experience, and I’ve had some good ones. I’ve had some difficult ones. But, slowly but surely you want to try and get the right team, and that’s hard to manage, because one person’s having a bad day. One person says this to the other. So, you’ve got to put your arm around someone. Sometimes you’ve got to give someone a kick in the backside. Sometimes, you got to be a bit hard. And, I live and learn. I’m sure I’m not the easiest boss, but I think underneath it, they all know that my bark is a lot worse than my bite. And, I think I’m fair. I’m not unfair and ranting and raving all the time.

Prav Solanki: Sia just pointed to something that I’ve just picked up on, and I think we discussed it earlier, which was when you own your own business, sometimes you’ve just got to roll your sleeves up and do anything and everything, right? And, you mentioned that you lost and associate, and now you’re having to fill some hours in there. You’re a specialist. You work in Wimpole Street, but you’re also doing NHS work. Is that right?

Sia M.: Yes. At the moment. It just happened. It’s been about a year and change. And it happened as I was looking for an associate who I interviewed, and this is a prime example of when you get it horribly wrong. I interviewed. I vetted. She seemed very, very, suitable for the position, and we had her starting on a Monday. I think it was the latter part of July last year. And, I had a full book ready, and they were going to be doing part-time, I think Mondays and Thursdays or something like that. And, we’re all set, full book, and I got not even a call. I got an email saying that my life circumstances has changed, and I’m moving to Cambridgeshire. Hence, I can’t start on Monday.

Sia M.: Now, I had a minor coronary, and I scratched my head and I thought, “What a load of nonsense.” And, as I always do, I sit back, and I don’t react with an email or pick up the phone and start ranting and raving, and that I’ve learned through managing a high street practise. Digest the information, because the first thing that will come out of your mouth is usually the wrong thing, and it’s a reactive comment.

Prav Solanki: Good advice.

Sia M.: And, so I sat down, and I thought, “Right.” But then, the more I thought about it, I wrote her an email back saying I’ll let this go, but be very cautious because technically speaking she could’ve been up for GDC referral for professional misconduct because you’ve effectively signed onto a practise, and you’ve got a full book waiting for you on Monday. You send me this email on Friday in writing. You’re pretty much shooting yourself or hanging yourself. But, I thought take the stance of being more advisory to this colleague by saying don’t pull this off, because if it were somebody who were not as friendly or wanted to be difficult, they could make your life quite miserable because I think technically speaking, I think your in breach of… Would you agree? For professional misconduct, if you’ve got a full book? It’s not a good thing to do.

Prav Solanki: No.

Payman: No.

Sia M.: By all means, if your life is changed, or at the very least call. Or at the very least come to the practise and do a week as locum because such a thing… I’m not saying it didn’t occur, but such a life changing situation, you don’t just email somebody that you’ve interviewed a couple of times. That’s a bit off, but associates are strange characters these days. You get some really odd ones.

Prav Solanki: So, how did you deal with Monday.

Sia M.: I had to go in.

Payman: Roll your sleeves up.

Sia M.: Yeah, I had to go in, roll my sleeves up. Went in, and within… Because it was July and August, being the summer months being usually quieter, productivity went up about 20, 25%, which shows what were the staff exactly doing. I had already asked them what were you guys up to. Productivity went up, and then I noticed how affluent the area is, and the comment I was making to you about the NHS access. Don’t underestimate that. If you’ve got your own successful private practise, and you’re doing your private work for a number of years, excellent. But, there are practitioners who are in this middle grey area. There’s a lot of good quality dental work that can be done in practises that have an NHS access and private scope.

Payman: What would you do differently career-wise?

Sia M.: I’m glad I didn’t start too early, because I had a great time between 1995 to about 2000, when most of my friends were starting practises. What would I do differently. Definitely, I would’ve bought a lot more of the NHS practises when I realised where the business was going. I should’ve bought 10. And, I knew it. That was the whole point. I had inside information, not inside trading information. Don’t come knocking on my door. It wasn’t anything like that. I just worked it out that if you’re going to put a ceiling on the expenditure by the government, effectively they had no ceiling of what the annual expense was for dentistry. If you look at it in simple term, if the annual expense was limitless, or with no limit, now they’ve got a limit. And therefore, you can’t have a squat practise. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out, if you’re already in that pot, what you own is going to have a lot of value.

Sia M.: The government did try a lot to claim that the practises technically that the contracts were there, as in you couldn’t sell them on. I can remember his name, but there was one chap in Birmingham who fought this underside and made it possible that dentists could sell contracts. And, it wasn’t NHS owned, although where that goes now, I don’t know, but that’s definitely something that I would’ve done. Because I knew it was happening. I just didn’t have enough guts to borrow money off family, and I didn’t want to go to the bank man.

Payman: What’s your lowest point in your professional life?

Sia M.: I’m glad you said professional life, because many football low points, but… Champions league final being knee deep in urine in Moscow. Being held back when Man United had won on penalties really was harsh. But, that was harsh.

Payman: I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

Sia M.: Champions League final in 2008. It was harsh being held back in Moscow. Raining. Billeting. Knee-deep in urine in the stadium because urinals had overflowed with Chelsea fans. Not in the best of moods.

Sia M.: But professionally, litigation.

Payman: Has that happened?

Sia M.: It happens to everybody. It gets you tense. It gets you nervous. You’ve just go to deal with it, be a bit tougher. I find I’m quite sensitive, and I take it very personally, if there’s ever a complaint, and you try and fight your corner. And, you just need to take it and just deal with it accordingly, because I find sometimes, when it’s personal, and it’s not to do with clinical work being long, some of the accusations, which have never gone anywhere, have been personal. And, I find those… I think a person who would have an issue about that, I think a person like that has issues themselves. And, I think it’s sad that in our world, legal teams sometimes don’t stand up and listen to you enough by saying, “This is a personal attack. It’s got nothing to do with the clinical issues,” yet all they want to do is wash their hands often or just settle, just move on.

Prav Solanki: Is there one particular case that stands out in your mind of a personal attack that had the biggest impact?

Sia M.: Two. One when I was very young.

Prav Solanki: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Sia M.: And, I’d spent hours trying to avoid doing a root canal on a patient where the tooth was vital, and I put in dressing, brought the patient back, and this is in the days of fee per item. And, I must have spend 5, 6 hours at least. And, the patient came back, and they thanked me, and they said thank you very much. The tooth doesn’t hurt, doesn’t need a root canal, and invariably, as you know, posterior teeth with a root canal if it’s got a large area, you’re then also looking at coronal recovery. And, it was fee per item, so there was no incentive for financial gain, and the patient had some sabiacal sensitivity, where they had a bit of a fraction, I thought.

Sia M.: So, I placed some glass inomers on two or three buckle areas. And, the patient wrote me a letter. And, back then, this was unheard of. This is 1992. Patient wrote me a letter saying can you please outline the advantages and disadvantages of amalgam and glass inomers, and why did you use amalgam on the back tooth and glass on the front tooth. And, I’m like perplexed, so actually went to Eddy Lynch, and I said, “Ed, what do I do with this?” And, Ed said, “I’ve never seen that.” And, Ed just said you write a polite letter back, and saying that I’m delighted that you’re no longer in pain. I’m delighted that you needed a root canal. But, I would guide you towards the British Dental Association and the British Dental Association’s library, where you can find out what the advantages of these particular materials are and why I’ve used them. I said, it’s because for the back teeth, back there you want to be using amalgam and for the sabiacal lesions because you want to do the non invasive, do the glass inomer’s bonding properties is what you want to use.

Sia M.: So, I gave them a hint of what they advantages were but not chapter and verse on why you use one and not the other. And, he went for it and got started sending letters-

Payman: He was unhappy with that answer.

Sia M.: Yeah, about why did you do this? I never wanted to have this done, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, his original letter had thanked me, and this went on and on, and it went to… I can’t remember the phraseology. It was before misconduct stuff. It went on to a local meeting of – in Lambeth, Southwark and Lewisham, with a panel and two or three dentists. And, the guy had gone onto describe his story. Then, I went on to describe my story, and the judge said, “but, you keep referring to the fact that the patient thanked you.” And I said, “Yeah, he did. It’s in this letter that my legal team would’ve had.” And for some reason, the judge or the panel never got it, and the judge looked at the letter, ripped it up and said, what a complete and utter waste of time. What are we here for? So, that one, for me was like, what a complete, utter waste of time, and why was this particular complaint then not pursued by saying thanks for wasting court time? Someone should’ve been help liable for that. That was the first one.

Sia M.: The second one was just… They were accusing of the staff laughing at them, and laughing at them when they were rinsing their mouth. I’m like, why would the staff want to laugh at you when you’re rinsing your mouth. Accusations that were just downright wrong. And, when the accusations were this wrong, and the patient was found to be lying, and it turned out that the… Wasn’t the patient that was making the complaint. It was the patient’s daughter, who was a legal secretary. I then, went to my legal team, and I said, “Clearly, we’ve proven that they’ve lied. There’s got to be some sort of action towards libel and all this time that’s been wasted, including my annual rate going up for my payments for my insurance.” And, all they were just like, just let it go and move on. I don’t think that’s right. So, those two really stood out. And, they were unnecessary.

Payman: What would be your advice, I mean, with the GDC situation right now, there must be so many people who’ve got something going on. What’s your advice? Because, I know the thing that hurts the most is you tried your best for that patient, and now the letter or the accusation is that you’re substandard. And, that must hurt. That does hurt. I’ve had complaints letters myself when I was a dentist. What’s your advice?

Sia M.: The advice is don’t take it personally.

Payman: Really?

Sia M.: Yeah. Do not take it personally, and defence of the GDC, the first thing that it says is that they are acting on this particular request. No one’s been accused. No one’s been proven to have done something wrong. They are acting on a request of a complaint. So, the first thing to do it to not take it personally. Sit back again with the same advice. Don’t react. Don’t start throwing your toys out of the pram claiming your innocence. Sit back, swallow, relax, and then start gathering all the facts. You’re always going to get bad eggs in any profession. And, I don’t think there are many dental practitioners out there who go out of their way to cause harm for patients.

Sia M.: If you make a mistake, put your hand up. Try and be as courteous and as polite. It’s a lot more than, say, 15, 20 years ago when I was working. You need to be a lot more… I’m not saying courteous, but you need to be a lot more attentive towards patients. They like to feel special in whatever environment they’re in, and they should not be any difference drawn between NHS and private. Every human needs to be dealt the same, but don’t take complaints personally. Sit back. Take a deep breath. Look at the facts. I’m sure 95% of the time, you’re right. But, don’t try and justify the fact that you’re right. Provide the facts. You leave that in their hands. And, if there is something to answer for and you’re not guilty, just allow the time to ride.

Sia M.: It’s stressful. I’m not saying that it’s not stressful. I’ve had a couple of friends actually go to the next level. Thankfully, that’s not happened to me, but the next level ones are extremely stressful. But, you just got to deal with it.

Payman: I’m conscious you can’t be with us much longer, but I want to finish with one question.

Sia M.: Tell me. Is this going to upset me?

Payman: European Cup.

Sia M.: Okay.

Payman: 1981.

Sia M.: European Cup Final 1981. Liverpool one round Madrid nil. Allen Kennedy.

Payman: Where was it?

Sia M.: Parque de France, Paris.

Payman: How the hell do you- encyclopaedia. Once he said to me because you’re not into football you should be a lot further in your career than you are. Thanks a lot for taking the time Sia.

Payman: It was a real pleasure having you on the show. Thanks.

Sia M.: A pleasure to be here, as always.

Payman: All right. Thanks, buddy.

Prav Solanki: Cheers, buddy.

Speaker 3: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman: Thank you for tuning in, guys, to the Dental Leaders podcast. Just got a little request to make. If you’ve got a suggestion of somebody else who we should be interviewing or somebody who’s got a really strong story, powerful story to share with us, please send us a message and help us connect with that individual, so we can bring their story to the surface.

Payman: Thank you so much for taking the time with us. I hope you got some value out of it. Think about sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the channel.

Transcript

Prav Solanki: Hey guys and welcome to the Dental Leaders Podcast. Today we have the pleasure of interviewing Keval Shah. What a guy? I’ve been a vegetarian myself, having been brought up as a vegetarian, then switching to becoming a meat-eater and then recently going vegetarian again. I had lots and lots and lots in common with this guy. But more importantly, he teaches so much and he had so many strong arguments for his vegan movement, his Save The Planet movement. And what was really, really clear to me from meeting him in person was the energy. I mean, he brought his chickens along to the interview, Rubi and Rata and we are all going to learn something about what we put in our mouths and just being mindful of where that’s come from, how it’s been treated and since … The interview bit, me think about what goes on my plate, where it comes from and these strong arguments behind it and Pay you’re the meat eater that I know, right?

Payman: Am I?

Prav Solanki: Yeah, you are the meat-eater, right? So just tell me from your perspective.

Payman: Yeah. It certainly made you look at yourself a little bit. I mean, it’s funny just as I said to him on the conversation that I didn’t know some of the stuff about the way meats made, produced and slaughterhouses and all that. And you’re right, when I look at my plate now, particularly lamb is beginning to bother me. Strangely, it’s my favourite meat as well, and eggs. I never thought there was any problems with eggs. And that question of, “Am I now going to go vegan?” The share price of several restaurants in London will go down if I do that. But it’s one of those things now where before I used to actually think there was something wrong with going vegan or vegetarian. Now, it’s the same thing I think about exercise. I would love to do more of it and I would love to be a vegan. Am I going to be? Not sure-

Prav Solanki: I don’t think so. But I think just more mindful about what goes on your plate. The other evening I was speaking to my brother-in-law, there’s a dead chicken sitting on your plate, cut in pieces, right? And he accepts that and understands that we all do, right? But what he felt most guilty about was when he throws the excess away. Whatever suffering has gone on has then happened to go in the bin. Anyway, listen, we’re getting, we’re digressing here. There’s lots to learn from here.

Payman: Yeah, super lovely guy as well.

Prav Solanki: Enjoy guys.

Payman: Enjoy guys.

Keval Shah: Honey is essentially bee vomit.

Prav Solanki: I don’t eat any sugar at the moment. But, the fact that you’ve just described honey as bee vomit …

Keval Shah: It wouldn’t sell. It wouldn’t sell if it was advertised as bee vomit, that’s the thing.

Voiceover: This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry, your host Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Keval, welcome to the Dental Leaders Podcast. This is one of the podcasts I’ve probably been most excited about simply because the lot of the messages that you put out on social media really do resonate with me and a lot of my beliefs and the way revolving around veganism in your diet and also educating the public about how animals are treated as part of the processing, creating food. And I’m sure we’re going to go a lot deeper in that and understand and learn more about your philosophy behind that and your beliefs. But just like to kick things off and learn a little bit more about your background. Just tell us where you were born, where you were brought up and then schooling and education. If you just give us the little bit of background on your backstory, Keval.

Keval Shah: Thank you Prav, I was actually born in London and then within the first year we all moved to Nairobi in Kenya where my dad and mom actually grew up. My grandparents were there, so we all were living together there. But I spent the first 15 years living there, studying there. And it was amazing because we had these community schools that, and then we all went to together and nursery primary, secondary is all just and I’m very easy to get into. Education was amazing, totally in a world class. And we were doing the old GCSE system on the O-levels. By the time that we decided to come back here for A-levels, the level of mathematics and sciences and things that we had done helped me a lot too just basically excel at A-levels as well and then get into dentistry.

Keval Shah: But the life in Kenya was very interesting but very enjoyable as well. At that time things were stable. Obviously there was a lot of corruption, a lot of poverty and that never went away. But we’d see a lot of street kids just trying to find enough food to survive, a lot of orphans, HIV was on the rise. We always used to see the discrepancy between the rich and the poor is a massive we had the multimillionaires on one side and the extremely poor and the other on.

Prav Solanki: Where did you sit in that mix? What was going on at that particular time?

Keval Shah: Middle class. Dad was an accountant. Mom used to do voluntary work for the community. So, we were fortunate. I mean, we had a house, we had water and electricity, car, family unit. Anything that you could ask for we had it. But in terms of wildlife in Kenya, it’s a massive tourism industry. And even at that time with all the protection they had, there was a lot of poaching going on as well. A lot of elephants dying because of the ivory. And I remember one time when the President himself ordered the burning, all the tusks that confiscated from the poachers. These are some of these defining moments that I remember in Kenya. People suffering, animals suffering. My friends and I, we had this mission of trying to conserve wildlife in raising awareness for them and to try and make the world a better place by reducing suffering for everyone.

Payman: As a child?

Keval Shah: Yeah. And they carried on and I think being brought up in a Jain household as well where nonviolence was the main thing. Non-possessiveness, truth and sticking with that and just being raised with those principles helped a lot.

Prav Solanki: Keval just for the listeners here who don’t know what that means, being brought up in a Jain household, can you just expand on that and just give us a bit more insight into that please.

Keval Shah: Jainism is a philosophy, it’s a way of life, which I’d say started off by a person called Mahavira, Lord Mahavira. His story was very similar to the Budha, he renounced his wealth and everything he had because he couldn’t see a way out. He saw suffering everywhere and you wanted to find an answer to that. Where are we going? What’s our purpose? And through years of meditation and deep introspection, he found out that living by these principles of truth, [inaudible] and non possessiveness, [inaudible] nonviolence, you can slowly begin to know who you are and find your purpose and know that we’re not material physical bodies, but actually souls who are here on a journey, on a mission to find ourselves. That’s all it is. And that’s what Jainism is about pretty much. It’s about simplicity and just being there for everyone, looking after others.

Prav Solanki: And from a dietary perspective, were you brought as a vegetarian? What’s the diet that you’ve followed since from a young age?

Keval Shah: Vegetarian was it we, we had to be vegetarian. I didn’t know anything else then, but when it came to dairy and eggs, for some reason that was part of our diet as well my mom or my grandparents didn’t have any of that, but my dad and my uncles and myself and my sister, we all had eggs and milk and everything. That we thought, okay, that’s it we’re living the path of nonviolence when it came to animals and carried on and we didn’t know any different. But unfortunately when I came here, moved here, when I went to university, I kind of started eating meat, not because I was curious about the taste or anything, but I was told consistently that I needed it and I needed it for my health. And if I wanted to put on muscle that was the way forward and that you open up all these men sales magazines and the first thing they were doing than is just meat, chicken, turkey all of that stuff.

Keval Shah: And not many people know about that unfortunately. I’m just putting it out there.

Prav Solanki: Nice to hear. Because I was brought up as a vegetarian as well. And my first piece of meat, so to speak, was at university as well. And I started training in a bodybuilding gym. I met a guy called Jason Greenslate. Jason, if you listening, you remember this time and the first thing he did is we, we bought some meat from Tescos or whatever it was chicken, put some lemon on it, chucked it under the grill. And I threw up, I ate it and I threw up and I ate again and I threw up. But I knew I had to keep forcing myself to do this if I wanted to stack on some muscle it was a very defining moment. And then he told me to a place called Bodrums, which was like a Kebab place, and it went down like a treat.

Prav Solanki: It was softer, it was better cooked, it was tastier, whatever, right? And so that’s where my journey began. Tell me through the first time you put a piece of meat in your mouth and how it felt with the principles that you’ve been brought upon. Was it heart racing? Did it feel wrong? And can you remember that first bite where it was?

Keval Shah: It was probably at the worst place you could try meet and that was McDonald’s chicken nuggets and can remember the exact moment. But I knew I didn’t like the taste of it, but I had to just do it and just go through all of that. The whole box of it, just to get the protein that everyone’s talking about. But that’s, I can’t remember the exact moment, but I remember not ever enjoying the taste of it. It was more because, yeah, I thought it was necessary.

Prav Solanki: The quest for body beautiful.

Payman: Prav, did you get into it after that?

Prav Solanki: Chicken Marsala loved it, fish, sea bass, I’ve never tried red meat in my whole life.

Payman: Ever?

Prav Solanki: Ever. Never. Chicken was a means to an end. And we found ways to flavour it or spice it or eat it in a way that would make it more palatable. Fish, yeah, I admit, I openly, I enjoyed eating fish in the way it was cooked and stuff. And when I met my wife and she’s more creative in the kitchen, she made more chicken and fish dishes and stuff like that. Amazing, loved it, prawns, that stuff. But if I was to sit down and go out for a meal, I would still always choose the vegetarian options as my favourite choice.

Payman: Did you feel guilty Prav?

Prav Solanki: Yeah, in a way. Because I wouldn’t say that I was overly religious, but we were brought up in a household, first of all, that was always vegetarian. And the teachings from our religion there’s that belief that the soul travels from body to body and your body is a carcass and the belief in reincarnation. And so if you do have any beliefs that are along those lines, then what you’re doing you’re destroying someone else’s carcass just to feel… And we don’t need it to survive. And so there were always those constant battles in my head, but the quest for muscle was always stronger and my ego and being man and the definition of being a man and being brainwashed into that, actually you can’t get here without meat because that’s what all my buddies were doing. And so it became the norm.

Payman: Kevin, when you have that big bag, were you having the similar betraying your parents?

Keval Shah: Well, I haven’t told them.

Payman: Until now.

Keval Shah: I think the main, because it didn’t sit right with me. I wanted to find out more about it. And I remember talking to one of the consultants in one of the lecturers that we had, and I asked them straight up, I said, “Do we actually need me to survive and be healthy?” And both of them said, “No, you don’t need it.” So then I thought, okay, so that’s great. I don’t need it. I’m going to find plant based sources of protein and go down their route, but then I still didn’t stop and I carried on because it was normal. Everyone was eating it.

Prav Solanki: Did you diversify from McDonald’s?

Keval Shah: To sometimes fish?

Payman: Yeah.

Keval Shah: But that was pretty much it.

Prav Solanki: When you were eating meat over what period of time was it? Two years, three years? How many times a week?

Keval Shah: Probably about, I’d say on and off for about a year. Probably about maybe twice a month as I wasn’t much at all, but I was having a lot of dairy. I was gulping down a gallon of full fat and milk almost every day, having lots and lots of baby bell cheeses, a six egg omelettes. It was horrendous. And what I’d suffered from when I was 16, I’d suffered from acne a lot. And unfortunately what happened in university actually became far worse, really bad. And to the point where I used to walk around with my head down because it was debilitating I hated myself. I didn’t want to look into the mirror, didn’t want to go out. Every time there was invites for going clubbing or whatever, I just used to stay in the library and that was it.

Keval Shah: And if anyone works how we say, “I wish I was 18 again, wish I was at uni again.” I don’t want to go back just for that. I just hated myself at that time. Unfortunately, that carried on for years and years. I know people go through acne pretty common. It goes away but mine went on for eight to 10 years since I was 16 and eating all of this stuff actually made it far worse than but I didn’t know. I thought, okay I’m working out a lot and whatever, there’s a lot of stress in my body. Maybe that’s why, but I didn’t see a way out of it because everyone was eating, like I said I just carried on. I thought it was normal, but then I thought, okay, well we were all to campaigning to save the tiger and the elephant we had these little boards and tables and stuffing and giving out leaflets and someone came up to me and they said that, “I’ve just seen you walk into McDonald’s and eat chicken nuggets and now you’re campaigning to save the elephant. How does that work?”

Keval Shah: You’ve taken a life and you’re trying to save another one, the balance is zero or it’s almost going into negative.” And that made me think, and I thought, now hang on, you know what chickens. They’re not like elephants they don’t feel pain. They don’t have families they’re just objects they just lowest of the low say it’s fine, it doesn’t matter. But that rationalisation didn’t sit right with me. I thought in a while I need to find out more about what’s going on now. Went on the Internet and at this time, there was a lot of undercover videos out there of what happened, the slaughter houses and know all these meat farms and stuff and I remember watching one of them and it was about a chicken slaughter house and what you see it stays with you for the rest of your life because I was just sitting there in the library watching it and you see all these babies, they’re not even fully grown babies going down this assembly line and all of them are crying out, right? They’re not stupid. They’re crying out. You could see it in their eyes.

Keval Shah: They’re absolutely terrified and they’re screaming, they’re terrified. And then they just get pulled up by the legs and just hung upside down and just stabbed in the neck. And even then they don’t die. They’re just still struggling with all his blood flowing out of them. And their death it took a few minutes for them to die, because there’s just following them in the line and it was horrible watching it. I mean, at that time I didn’t know what the depth of emotions that they actually possess, but the physicality of the pain, the suffering that they went through was enough for me to think, “Okay you know what? I can’t do this anymore.” That made me stop having meat.

Prav Solanki: That video in the library, was at your defining moment?

Keval Shah: I think it started as journey for me.

Prav Solanki: Did you eat any chicken after that?

Keval Shah: No. That was it.

Prav Solanki: That was it?

Payman: Kevil, you allude to this hierarchy of pain in a way. Would you think? I don’t know, eating insects is less of a problem than eating chicken?

Keval Shah: I think the question should be is it necessary? And the fact that how many of us as humans would be willing to eat insects as a delicacy? I know it’s a cultural thing. There’s many countries where they eat insects, lots and lots of them. But I feel that if something is not necessary and if it involves killing of sentient beings that would otherwise have communities and kingdoms. And like especially if you just take the bee for example how they live and how they sacrifice their lives for each other and they really protect each other. And if bees can do that, have we actually learned enough about the insect kingdom to know that we don’t need to kill them, we don’t need to, let them be free and be happy and be doing whatever they’re doing. I think, that’s probably the question for me, is it necessary to do it?

Prav Solanki: Just while we’re on the topic of bees, and I know I’m digressing from our main topic of conversation I’ve heard various things through conversations and online that so is honey vegan?

Keval Shah: Honey is essentially bee vomit. What bees do, they take in nectar and then they make honey, which is actually made for their children in times when they cannot get enough food, enough for them to grow so they actually deposited for their kids, for their babies. It was never meant for us and the fact that to obtain it and you literally have to enslave the queen bee in a hive, keep her tied down there so she can breed and create all these colonies and produce honey and then in the end we don’t even let them have the honey. We take it away from them. A whole process of enslavement and exploitation and then eventually killing them when they’re no longer necessary. I think for those reasons, I would not consider that vegan at all.

Prav Solanki: I am so glad I’m on a ketogenic diet right now.

Keval Shah: I don’t even know what that means.

Prav Solanki: I don’t eat any sugar at the moment. The fact that you’ve just described honey as bee vomit.

Keval Shah: It wouldn’t sell it. You know what it wouldn’t sell if it was advertised as bee vomit. That’s the thing.

Prav Solanki: The way you’ve just articulated that I’m going to stay on my keto diet.

Keval Shah: We have agave now, which is if you want to go back to sugar tastes very much like honey. It’s made from our cactus, it’s so good.

Prav Solanki: What about avocado?

Keval Shah: Yeah. I don’t know if it’s sweet.

Prav Solanki: No, is that Vegan? I’ve heard various things that avocado isn’t, I might be wrong. Maybe I’ve-

Keval Shah: I think I’ve read something online. It’s the point of importing it from other countries and in a vast plantations are, which again, I don’t have an issue with. It’s thought that’s the economic system where it’s grown in other countries and imported here. There’s no direct harm or suffering to others and I think that would be like the main measurement for defining something as Vegan or not.

Payman: For me. I understand. I do understand that but in some of what you say, it seems like that anthropomorphism that put human emotions into animals. You know what I mean? The enslavement of the bee. I get what you’re saying, I do get what you’re say, but if we’re talking pain and suffering, the avocado could be causing more pain and suffering because of the way it’s grown. And because of the way the market is exploited. The coffee, there’s no animal is being eaten when I drink my coffee. But whole communities are being enslaved because of it. And so how far do you take it? Do you look at that, every move you’re making. Are you looking at the whole supply chain of that? This microphone we’re talking into the results of the mined, you know what I’m talking about?

Keval Shah: You’re absolutely right.

Payman: It’s a difficult one. I guess we all make our lines somewhere, right?

Keval Shah: I think it’s about living consciously because unfortunately the society we’ve created, we don’t even have to touch the animals to abuse them now. The fact that our we live in these artificial constructs where we have anything that you see around you is made from nature they were communities in kingdoms destroyed just to create what’s in front of you. And it’s the society we’ve created. We have gone all the way on the other side where we don’t even know that we are nature. We’ve isolated ourselves in four walls when we actually are in nature, we are part of that community outside. You’re absolutely right. Everything that we use, there’s going to be abuse, but it’s about minimising that as much as possible. The fact that we exist as humans right now in the cities and towns that we have, that’s a burden on the planet in itself, especially when our numbers are reaching 7.5 billion, right?

Keval Shah: Now, when we start living consciously, and I feel that veganism is just the first stage, it’s not the end. It’s just the first stage of thinking, “Okay, what’s on my plate? what can I do to reduce the direct suffering of others? How can I be healthy? Not for myself as just for myself but for the planet because now we know that our food is one of the biggest carbon energy footprints out there right now in terms of damage to the world that we live in. But also extending that to human communities where there’s fair trade or not our children being used for cocoa maybe in communities where there are people who are being exploited for mining the funds that we have. Where does this come from? My phone’s about three, four years old now. I haven’t changed it but I know people who keep changing every six to eight months to a year. So it’s about going on that journey and realising that there’s so much we can do to change. And just in taking those steps, you’re actually becoming part of a healing planet. Because we have burned it a lot and it’s time to start healing again. Just by finding our way back and living simply. And I feel like even living simply not only releases our footprint in terms of our himself footprint, but also it releases diamond energy and money that we could be using to other things. Helping others who are not as fortunate as us or giving land back to the ones that we’ve taken that taken it from the other species that we share this planet with so they can heal themselves as well. And it’s so powerful and it’s just knowing that there’s another way we don’t have to live like other people living in our society we don’t have to live in that materialistic way anymore.

Prav Solanki: Do you believe, and I know I already know the answer, but I’m asking this question from the perspective of a meat eater, okay? Free-Range animals, humane killing of animals. And do you believe there is a humane way to kill animals for our consumption? And what’s your take on say, free range hens, chickens, eggs? Just give me your thoughts on that. I’ve seen some stuff that you’ve shared online. So I just like to know what your thoughts are because I know there’ll be a lot of people listening to this who will be thinking guy’s off his rocker, yeah. Space Cadet. I honestly do. And back in the day me being meat-eating bodybuilder would have probably thought the same, right? And people, we all go through these different phases. You’re an ex meet eater yourself-

Keval Shah: I’ve been through it as well.

Prav Solanki: You’ve been through it as well, right? I just want to get your take on what humane killing means if exists and the whole free range argument and the fact that these animals were never brought or bread or barn to be free and wild. They have been nurtured and developed over years and years and thousands of years to be food for us, right? So isn’t that okay?

Keval Shah: Okay. So I think it’s important to understand where these animals came from to start with. Now, if we just take chickens, for example, about 10,000 years ago, they used to live as free beings in the jungles of Southeast Asia. They could fly they had their nest in the trees. They would do it like any other bird that we would just be in wonderment of right now. But we brought them down from the trees and we basically beat them into submission and genetically and hormonally and physically manipulated them to such an extent that they don’t look anything like what they’re used to. Just over a period of 10,000 years, right? To the point where now, because of the hormones that we give them and the way we breed them, their bodies are just being pushed to just push out the eggs and just become big really fast, right? So that’s the system we’ve created. But the reason why they even exist in the first place is because we forcibly impregnate the females to create a new generation of whatever you want to call them. So that’s the only reason why it exist because a lot of people think that if he stopped eating them, they’re going to overpopulate the planet. But that’s not the case because the only reason they’re there is because we forcibly do it. Every year or every few months, artificial, we call it artificial insemination. If we did the same thing to a human, it would be called something else. So I’ll just give you an example of what free range eggs means to the hens and what really happens to them. So free range just means that they have a little bit more space, right? That’s all it means.

Keval Shah: They have maybe a little bit of time on the grass, a little bit more space, but the actual process of producing eggs remains the same. Now the process is get a bunch of females when they’re really young, yeah. Confine them because if they weren’t confined, that’d be free and go away. So you have to confine them and then you start injecting them with hormones to make them mature faster. When that happens, what they do is just like a woman would produce unfertilized eggs and get rid of it from her body every month, they would do the same thing. So in artificial, an unfertilized egg is just a period. Now, naturally these chickens would produce 12 to 15 unfertilized eggs every year. Humans would call them periods. But on these farms are pushed so hard that they produce an egg a day. And that is not only painful, it’s extremely debilitating for them.

Keval Shah: So the pushing out an egg a day, an egg a day, an egg a day and after about 18 months, the owner thinks, okay what? I’m not getting an egg a day. I’m getting one egg every two days. It’s time for them to go. I’m not making enough money from this. So just before he sends them to the slaughter house, he says, “Okay, I want a new line of production now of female egg laying hens.” Right? So he forcefully impregnates them again, extremely painful. And they know that they’ve got babies inside of them now. But when the egg comes out of them with the baby’s inside, it’s taken away from them. So this time, I mean, whoever’s seen these kinds of footage that you’ll know how much they actually cry out. And the eggs roll away and then they get hatched in another place. And as we all know, half, there’s a chance that it could be a boy, it could be a girl, right? All of us, when we have kids. Now when the eggs actually, when the eggs hatch and then you get chickens coming out, what they do is they check each one of them and if it’s a baby boy is thrown straight into a mass rater, crimes him off straight away, right? Or stuffed into bags with lots of them cross-

Payman: Immediately?

Keval Shah: Or, sorry-

Payman: Just killed there and then?

Keval Shah: Yeah, newborn babies, yeah. Because males don’t have any use to them. A male body cannot be exploited as much as a female body can.

Prav Solanki: Could they not fatten up as a chicken and then and then eat it later? Or-

Keval Shah: Again, it’s no different for the chicken itself isn’t that but most because there are so many being produced. I’m talking about trillions here. They’re just fast, it’s baby. It’s actually made into baby soup. So the muscle rooted into that in a consistent in making baby soup. Now half of them, obviously girls, so they are confined just like their mothers pushed to produce eggs again at the age of 18 months, they all go to the slaughter house. So that’s a free range for us. Right now I can’t see anything free about that. But the industry is so clever. It uses all these terms like free range, grass fed, organic, family owned humane slaughter and you get fooled by it. I was fooled by it. I stopped buying these battery caged eggs and went onto free range when I was eating them thinking, “You know what, this is better for them.” And it says on it happy eggs. Literally says happy eggs. And I got fooled by it. But anyone who goes through any happy egg farm or a family owned farm or whatever farm, you go to an egg farm, we’ll see the reality.

Keval Shah: Because if you actually look after animals, it’s not called a farm. It’s called a sanctuary, right? There’s a clear distinction here.

Payman: Yeah. We don’t mention you brought your chicken with you because the story of these chickens-

Keval Shah: Next to me is Rata and Ruby they were actually rescued an egg farm about five to six years ago and they had another companion, but her name was Ronnie. And when we actually brought them home, now that the story was that we had a garden space and I told my dad, “Look, you know what? We’ve got this space. Let’s try and help someone.” And initially we thought, okay, cat, dog the normal thing. And then I thought what, I’ve thought of all the animals we have on this earth, who was the most abused, who’s the most forgotten was the most vulnerable? We realised chickens, right? So when we brought them home, they didn’t have much feathers on them at all. They were completely battered, depressed, afraid of us because their whole life, the 18 months that they were alive, they were kicked around, pushed around by people just like me, right? So they did not want to be near me at all. But slowly they came around we fed them, we showed them love we kept them warm and then they just brightened up, the feathers, came back and they found their personalities. And all three of them have amazing different personalities. One was the leader, Ronnie unfortunately passed away. But Ruby here, she’s just a hyper chicken who loves talking all the time. We have Rata whose opposite, she’s extremely calm. She doesn’t say much, but the thing that united them, the bond that they formed, these are sisters, if you imagine they’ve lost their families, they’ve lost their children, they’re survivors. They bonded and they used to look after each other to the point where if I put food out and if all three of them are not there, the chicken would go and call the other two and made sure that they were all feeding, eating together. They would sun based together they would do everything together. Unfortunately, Ronnie passed away about four years ago and the reason was an egg got stuck inside of her because even when we rescued them, they were still laying eggs every single day. Now because their reproductive systems are so exploited they can’t push the egg out. So the egg actually burst inside of her, she got [inaudible] she started throwing up and she passed away.

Keval Shah: So we run to the vet and we said, “Look, we can’t have this happening.” So she actually put hormonal implants inside of them and shut down their lane. Just like how we have implants for human females, right? Same way they don’t produce eggs anymore. They’d been with us for five to six years now and they’re absolutely happy.

Prav Solanki: Just talk us through what’s the lifespan of-

Keval Shah: Eight to 10 years.

Prav Solanki: Eight to 10 years-

Keval Shah: Yeah. But what really surprised me was not the physical side of things, but the emotional side of things. Because when Ronnie passed away, these two went into this depression for two weeks where they stopped eating as much as they did. They went around the garden every single day calling out for her, obviously couldn’t find her, they couldn’t sleep well. And thankfully they recovered. But even now I find them going back to the same spot they run, used to sit in and just see there through their eyes. And it amazes me how much they have a memory of, I don’t know what it is by find them doing all these things and their depth of emotion for something that I never actually valued or even thought about growing up. The other day, just last week there was a pigeon that actually went into their run and these two just thought, “Okay, we are going to have to kick him out.” So they started stamping on him. So I went out, rescue the pigeon and I told these guys off. Yeah, I really shouted at them. And then for five hours, it didn’t speak to me. They didn’t respond to me. They just thought, “Nah, I don’t want to speak to him.” But they’re all, they do all these kinds of funny things-

Prav Solanki: Do they understand you?

Keval Shah: They understand the [inaudible] as well now. So things like time to eat, to go to bed, come on in, just get out of your house or time to get into the garden or here’s some food. I mean just they recognise faces as well. So when they see me coming to the kitchen a hundred yards away, they start jumping straight away because they know I’m here, I’m going to let them out, we’re going to spend some time with them.

Prav Solanki: Where do they live?

Keval Shah: They live in a six metre by two metre run. Put them in the garden and they have a little coup in there as well. But when I come home from work, I let them out to the gardens. There’s so, yeah. And then just in terms of how they look after each other. And like I mentioned, it’s amazing. But the other thing that I noticed, my wife was in the inside and I was with them outside at night and I was just feeding them for a little bit. And then all of a sudden they just became like statues. They just stopped. And I’m thinking, “What’s going on here?” And I didn’t realise what was going on. I went back in about 10 minutes later and my wife said there was a fox in the other garden that I’d never heard about or heard off. But these lot have a better sense of hearing than I do. Probably even a better sense of smell. And that actually made me think, if they can perceive better than I can imagine their perception of been. If their neurons can detect things more than I can imagine if they’re paying their sensitivity to it would be even more than mine. And that just blew my mind away. Imagine if that was possible. And the fact that we killed one point 7 trillion of them every year-

Payman: Trillion?

Keval Shah: Trillion is absolutely devastating.

Prav Solanki: The fact that it happens and it’s going to continue happening if people support that, right?

Keval Shah: Yep.

Prav Solanki: Is there a more humane way of doing it than current? Would you advocate that over current methods?

Keval Shah: I don’t know if I can think of a humane way to exploit someone and their bodies and separate their families and kill the children. Even the concept of humane slaughter, and I think about this humane means to look after, right? Slaughter means to murder. To bring those two words together and make it a normal thing. That’s how much we’ve been fooled into thinking, “Yeah, humane slaughter exists.” But there are three ways that animals are killed on farms. There are the boiled alive or they’re starved to death, or they’re electrocuted or put in gas chambers and exerting-

Prav Solanki: And that’s not vegan propaganda, right? That’s how it goes down.

Keval Shah: Yep. That we’ve been individuals who’ve been to slaughterhouses, stood outside there, their screams, yeah. It stays with you.

Prav Solanki: I tried veganism for about six and it was after watching and you’ve probably seen the Netflix documentary, What The Health and the whole family did it. Yeah. We were all after this, boom, we’re going Vegan. There is no way we can drink milk or eat, what did they call cheese? They referred to cheeses as coagulated pus.

Keval Shah: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. That was a bit like your bee vomit. So we were like, “No way.” We struggled, we struggled and struggled and then went back to being vegetarian, right? For whatever reason but then you come to read reviews about it and learned that a good chunk of that programme had a very vegan biassed on it and there was a bit of propaganda behind it. And I’m sure there’s a huge element of it that was very true and direct and everything and certain elements of it were probably embellished because the whole programme and the doctors and stuff on there were vegans as well, right? What your thoughts on that and the sceptics out there, I’ll think that actually a lot of the stuff out there, it’s just being peddled by tree-huggers or whatever phrase you want to put behind it. What’s your thoughts on that in terms of like sometimes you think you see these videos and you think of people just start embellishing this to be more than what it is or is that the truth? Animals are being boiled alive, electrocuted.

Payman: Electrocuted for sure. That’s, I thought that was the humane way of doing it. But boiled alive really?

Keval Shah: Yeah. Pigs are boil their life just to get rid of their hair in the skin. But just going back to the question, I personally haven’t seen What The Health.

Prav Solanki: You haven’t?

Keval Shah: No.

Prav Solanki: Oh, right? Okay.

Keval Shah: But I’ve got a book called How Not To Die. It’s written by a guy called Dr. Michael Greger-

Prav Solanki: Got the same book.

Keval Shah: You have? Okay good and I think you don’t really have to watch the documentary to make your own conclusions and decisions. You just have to first ask yourself, what are you trying to get from these animal products? You’re trying to get calcium or protein or iron. Well, what are you trying to get. And then realising that all nutrients come from plants. Where do animals get their nutrients from? Right? Directly from the plants.

Keval Shah: But even if we didn’t care about the animals, right? Even if you didn’t care about our health, do we care about the future? Do we care about the planet we’re leaving behind for our kids? Do we care about hungry people? Because for the last three, if we want to make a change there and help the last three things, the planet, our children and hungry people on the plan right now going plan based is the way forward. Just in terms of resource use. So I’ll give you an example to create, to just produce one pound of beef, you need 2,500 gallons of water, right? That’s the equivalent of having showers for like two months, right? And then on the flip side, you have a billion people going hungry and thirsty and dying it from not having it. Cheese, 900 gallons for one pound of cheese, soy milk, or one of these plant milks, 30 to 60 gallons. So just by shifting from an omnivore vegetarian down to vegan, you’ve literally saved 1100 gallons of water in a day per person. Multiply that by a few billion water shortage would not be a problem for us, right? Think about fossil fuels. We have wars going on for oil right now, right? And one of the… to run an industry that exploits and kills over a trillion beings every year. You need energy, you need machines, you need slaughterhouses, you need trucks to grow their food. And all of that requires fossil fuels. And we’re running out of an energy source that our children could benefit from everything around us is made from fossil fuels. We can’t be wasting it away on things that are not even necessary for our survival, right?

Keval Shah: Going on to hungry people now, 80% of all the food that we grow on this planet is given to animals to feed and fatten and kill while a billion humans go hungry. 82% of starving children live in countries where animals get the food and these animals are shipped to western countries for us to eat, to the point where chronic hunger is not even on the news anymore. We’ve normalised an atrocity just in the same way we’re normalising the violence against animals and nature. Everything has become just the norm. It doesn’t even hit the news anymore, but just by reducing our demand on animal products, we can release resources for the poorest people to get food.

Keval Shah: Now imagine the demand for 80% of food going to animals, right? The price would increase straight away. So you literally, not only are we physically taking the food away from the poorest, the prices would go up and they can’t even afford to buy it, right? And having to see your own kids die in front of you, which still happens today. It’s just not on the news is one of the worst things we could go through. Literally tears communities and countries apart. So hunger is should be on one of the main things on our agenda chronic human hunger and reducing and abolishing the suffering of animals when both of those things are not even necessary. Gandhiji was under the first guy who actually described hunger as violence. It’s not even a bad luck or lack of resources. It’s actually distribution of resources. When a person takes more than a fair share of earth we have enough food to feed 10 billion people happily healthily. But when people take more than their fair share and start consuming things that are wasting resources, that’s when hunger starts. That’s when climate change starts. That’s when the environment gets destroyed.

Keval Shah: So I would say for those guys who think that that not documentaries obviously as a waste of time try and look at the other things watch Cowspiracy. That’s a powerful Netflix documentary that goes into the environmental side of things and how what we eat affects the planet. Watch that, watch Earthlings, watch Minions, see what it’s like to be in their place. And if it’s not necessary, why do it?

Payman: I see. I went onto your feed, right? I went on your Facebook feed and it was only animals. What I saw. There was one comedy thing. Well, the rest were animals. Do you bring it to dentistry? Do you talk to your patients about this or not?

Keval Shah: Well, I do ask them where do you get your calcium from?

Payman: Do you?

Keval Shah: Yeah, let’s try them. And then obviously the normal answer is milk. And then I see, look, calcium comes from the ground. It’s taken up by grass. Cows eat the grass. That’s how they get the calcium from. Do you want recycled calcium to another being or do you want the fresh, healthy, powerful stuff straight from the vegetables? So green vegetables, nuts, seeds, oranges, so many. And we have soy milk and almond milk now. And I never told him about what really happens to the cows. I just told them about calcium. I tell them about B12, which is something that none of us can ever get just by eating what we do. We need supplements for B12 we have to be realistic. The society and the way we live right now, we don’t live out there in nature.

Keval Shah: Gorillas get their B12 biting soil, we wash everything away. So instead of eating soil, best way to get is by supplement, right? So just health information I do give to them and the rest of them is up to them to do what they want with.

Prav Solanki: It’s that part of your checkup process?

Keval Shah: It’s part of a casual conversation, prevention. I think as an health professionals for us to be just focusing on teeth alone. I think we’re trying ourselves short here we know a lot more about the body and I feel that if we do know we have a duty to educate people. I mean, to the point where I know people in my family been diagnosed with cancer and the first thing that consultants said is stop having dairy products. This was eight years ago and I’m thinking, why don’t I know this? Why have you not been told that? And then I found out about the growth hormones that you can’t filter away even if you buy semi-skimmed milk, whatever. The natural growth hormones that are actually there, the Casein, the puss, all of that stuff it’s not good for the human body. right? Same thing with eggs, cholesterol, animal protein in a saturated fat and fishes. A lot of people believe fishes are so healthy and that’s why we got to eat them. But if you think about where fishes live right now, they live in the dirtiest place on the planet, the oceans. Every plastic that we produce ends up there, breaks up into micro plastic fishes breathe water, just like we’d be there. And unfortunately all of that stuff goes into them. Micro plastics gets stuck in and when we eat and we eat our own plastics, same thing that mercury, lead, heavy metals.

Keval Shah: And I was reading just two days ago about something men’s, I don’t know about increasing your sperm count or something. And one of the things I was yeah, eat low mercury fish and I’m thinking why eat any fish at all? It’s going to be low amounts of mercury in it. Why eat any at all? You don’t need it. We eat fishes. We used to eat fish because of Omega 3, right? Now Omega 3 are actually produced by algae that live in the ocean plants. If you get enough flaxseed, Omega 3 is done without any of the mercury or emptying of the oceans. Because we all love whales and dolphins we go on holidays to see them, but we don’t realise the same net that catches the fish that we love to taste catches them as well. And yeah, that’s why the oceans, by 2048 the oceans are going to be empty. That’s less than 30 years from now. So there’s a lot that we need to do, I feel.

Payman: Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the way the planet is going? Because for me, I’m a meat eater by the way.

Keval Shah: Yeah.

Payman: For me, the move to vegetarianism and veganism, there’s definitely something going on in the last year or two. And I don’t think you probably know the stats better than me, but it feels like a loader. People are becoming vegetarian and Vegan now. Does that make you feel like we’re at a point at a turning point of, personally I get all of the facts but I just love meat and that you must come across that you feel like we’re in a trajectory now that that’s a hopeful one or do you feel pessimistic?

Keval Shah: I’d say a bit of both. Looking at what’s happened over the last four to five years in terms of how much is available, vegan options, plan based options is amazing. It’s actually exploded, right? And over here in the States, Europe, Berlin, amazing. But I still feel looking at the stats in a long way to go we have people who know this need to be active. That’s the missing link right now. Because people know what the consequences are, what’s available. But a lot of the people that know about it are quiet. And there’s a saying that all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to stay silent, right? When it comes to timelines, we have less than 10 to 12 years before the climate just becomes utterly uninhabitable and unsustainable and causing all sorts of issues for most of us. Right now people already suffering because of the climate change and it’s not just climate change, climate breakdown to the point where some countries there are, I mean even ours we imagine the weather we are having, it’s changed forever. We can’t go back. All we have to do and try and salvage what we have, right? We’re returning what was taken.

Keval Shah: But timeline wise, all rainforest will be gone in 29 years time, 30 years time, oceans we’ll be dead. Those two things are the lungs of our planet. They produce oxygen that we’re breathing in right now. One fifth of the oxygen we’re breathing in right now, it comes from the Amazon. Oceans, Phytoplankton produce 50% of the other oxygen and both of them are dying out. So we have to really step up if you are to have any hope for the future. Otherwise it’s going to be like how we have Madmax and on those films or post apocalyptic incidents and where people are just fighting for scraps and the remaining starving animals are going to be killed anyway, right? We don’t want to reach that stage-

Payman: Do you feel like, I hear you, do you feel like relying on people to make a change themselves is never going to work and the way they look at me? I understand all the arguments, but I love meat, overwrite all those arguments for me right now. If we’re being hopeful, if I’m being hopeful about the future. For me it would be something around the solution would have to be so profitable that resource goes into research and some things brought out that that fixes some of these issues and really went through a lot of issues, right? Whereas if we tell everyone to recycle, okay, everyone can recycle or everyone can go vegan on their own bag. Not everyone’s going to do it. What is it about you that sort of makes you want to be the crusader for? Is it what you just said, is it there were literally at a point where it’s, if what’s going on and you’re not speaking, then you’re being negligent, sort of thing. Is that where you’re at?

Keval Shah: Unfortunately we’ve come to that stage where we can’t be passive anymore. It’s literally make or break. And the reason why governments don’t talk about it is because it’s so scary. No one wants to create chaos and panic in our society, right? We always hear news last the truth always comes out last, right? And we’ve overcome a lot, don’t get me wrong as humans we’ve overcome a lot. But there comes a point when our spaceship earth starts running out of resources there’s no docking station where we’re going to refuel. It’s just us on this little planet, right? And there comes a point when things do diminish. And that’s why I feel that things like this should be part of our normal conversation. We do a lot of socialising and this and then staff, people know more about avengers and what’s going on out there in their own world.

Keval Shah: So has to be part of active conversation or a social media all the ways that we interact with other people because this is, you’re absolutely right. We can’t do this on our own. We can be individuals and trying to make change. We all have to work together. We have to use our individual skills to get the message out in a compassionate way. No one wants to argue or fight, in a compassionate where we support each other. That’s the only way we’re going to get through.

Prav Solanki: How do you feel about the recent demonstrations?

Keval Shah: Well I thought hi time finally and it took kids to realise this? That’s it had to happen one day or the other. And I’m so glad that people like Greta came forward and the way she’s speaking up without any fear or any hesitation, she’s just saying it like it is.

Keval Shah: I’m glad, but I don’t know how much that will change because governments usually wait for that energy to pass and then they just go back to what they’re doing. So it has to be a down-up approach from the people changing the way they live, but also from a top down as well, where we get more ministers coming on board in thinking, “You know what? Hang on, what’s going on here? We need to change something.”

Payman: With regards to dentistry, what can dentists do to reduce the practise footprint?

Keval Shah: Well, I think dentists are leaders in a way in their own field, in their own communities that were really respected thankfully where we are. Some being an example of living compassionately and being there if we did at each other. Not just in a way we interact outside but also on our plates seeing peace and justice on our plates when we go. Because we have families as well we are dentists, but we’re also husbands, sons whatever we do in our own communities, that’s a one stage firstly to be the example become what you want to see in the world. And that alone is pretty powerful. But also as dentists think about the health side of things, and when I say health, I don’t mean just individual health because if the planet is not healthy, there’s no point being the fittest bodybuilder in the room. That’s not going to save you.

Keval Shah: It doesn’t matter how rich you are, poor you are, we’re all going to be victims of it. And I think how we have conferences for dentists as well we have all this energy going into CPDs and all this money and everyone’s wanting to do the best composite they can. Maybe include something like this in it as well have a stand there have a little five, 10 minute talk of it. Just things like that. Just raise awareness in that way. I think that would help to start. But I think social media is a way forward-

Payman: Someone just started a group. Have seen that?

Keval Shah: About reducing waste or something?

Payman: Yeah, Luke Fully about how to practise more environmentally friendly. It’s something people have been telling us about. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen our kits lots of plastic. In the kits. And we get the question sometimes in a why is it so much plastic in the kits? And I get it. I do get it as a profession what you’re saying, I’m very interested in what you’re saying about talking to your patients about their diet in a Vegan, vegetarian way, because that’s good health advice. I don’t think really that connections being made out there as a public that being vegetarian or Vegan could for your health. Good for the planet itself that’s coming out these days. But good for your health? Not really. In popular culture did that, by the way, is that the case?

Keval Shah: You know what? Funny enough milk, dairy companies can’t even say anymore that they’re here for calcium now.

Payman: That’s true, milk has got a bad rep, you’re right.

Payman: But do you hear where I’m coming from?

Prav Solanki: I do. And certainly for me, right? And anecdotally and equals one in my own situation, since going from being a meat eater to vegetarian, I feel a lot better. My skin’s a lot better, right? I’m still eating eggs, cheese, milk, okay. I actually found when I went vegan, I ended up putting on more weight because I ate more. I’m very carb sensitive, right? So I eat more things that contain sugar and bread and things and I’m just incredibly sensitive to that. But I certainly do feel a lot more definitely a lot more healthier from not eating meat, not eating fish-

Payman: But you’re no meat, no sugar.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, of course. But before I went, no sugar, I was just no me, it felt better and I felt better for sure. Right? And equals one for me, but the trigger, right? So I started eating meat to become a bodybuilder, so to speak. And then for many, many years carried on. And you knew me as a meat eater from day one, right?

Prav Solanki: Sure. And my daughter came home from school one day and said, Daddy, I want to be a vegetarian. And so I said, which one of you mates is vegetarian? Yeah, because I thought, here we go again. Get on the bandwagon. So none of them, but these are my reasons why. And she gave me such a logical reason, an explanation. I said, we will support you. But then in a matter of six months, we all became vegetarian because in the back of my mind, like me and my wife had had discussions and for the last year, although we carried on eating, we were both having that conversation saying it’s easier to eat meat because we caught more choice, but it definitely doesn’t feel right. We made that transition-

Payman: Feel right psychological not physically, right?

Prav Solanki: psychologically, it just did not feel right. And when you actually consciously sit down and think about what you’re consuming, it was that it was that process right and it didn’t feel right. And having been brought up as a vegetarian with our belief systems, we made the switch.

Payman: I think what you said, what Keval said about the non connection to nature. That’s very true. That’s very true. I mean if everyone who ate meats had to kill the meat, it would change the game a bit. I definitely would change the game.

Keval Shah: I would encourage all new teachers to go to a sanctuary and just spend the day with the animals and just see how amazing and friendly there are. And they will make you think, definitely. And the other thing is spend time with them when they were alive and then see what happens to them when they have to be killed. I think those two things, bringing them together is a really powerful day of just making you think why are we doing this? Because when we think about cats and dogs, right? We’d never think about harming them. But China is just fine. It’s normal for them. It’s part of their culture. And the same thing in India you’d try killing in some parts cows and chickens, you’d be crucified for that. So eating it was not even a necessity. It’s actually a cultural thing. It’s a story that we’ve been told as growing up. You need this it’s fine. It’s normal. It’s necessary.

Keval Shah: If you take a child like as a three year old child who’s not been brainwashed by society yet, you put a goat or fish, chicken in our calf, a little baby turkey in front of the kid. Who she going to eat? No one. It just doesn’t come by instinct. We have to, it’s almost like we’re brainwashed and forced into it without even thinking about it. When children actually ask their parents why are we – because animals are our friends once upon a time we used to talk like them and make all sorts of sounds we wanted to be with them. And if someone saw someone kicking a dog as something far away, we’d scream our head off, right?

Keval Shah: And we’d say, “Nah, stop.” But they came a point when that meat or that dairy or the eggs were just put in front of us and we, I’m sure we thought about it and thought, “Why?” This is my friend on the plate. But then all of these messages start coming in saying the three ends of justification. It’s necessary for you, it’s normal and it’s absolutely natural. But when we see past those three justifications realise it’s neither one of them. And it’s just a story we’ve been told we don’t need it. It’s like seeing them going out of the matrix and seeing what really happens and why do we want to fund terrorism of sorts to beings. We just want to be free and with their families. We think about terrorism and countries, but our terrorism happens every single day in our own countries and we don’t even know about it because it’s all closed walls. We think about the holocaust, right? Went on for years, the whole population was supporting it, but the brainwashing and the propaganda that happened with it allowed it to happen for that long slavery. Hundreds of years went on. It was absolutely normal until someone thought, “No, this is necessarily, is this normal? People are suffering.” And then took 400 years to get rid of that. But right now it’s still going on. It’s just another being in the picture.

Payman: Yeah. I like that. The, I agree with that, that the evolution of humanity, the way you outlined the absolutely right.

Prav Solanki: I often have conversations with my wife and we just sort of joke around the dinner table and say, “Do you think one day everyone will just look back in time and say, “Can you believe we used to eat chickens and animals?””

Payman: Yeah. That’ll happen. For me if you had an artificial steak I’d be well up for that. If it tasted right-

Keval Shah: Well they’ve already started it.

Payman: They started and I reckon give it another 15 years, artificial steak will be tastier than real steak because taste is a brain thing, not tongue thing, so they’ll figure it out.

Keval Shah: Well, I think when it comes to taste, if you want to get over something, if you abstain from it for three to four weeks, your tongue will start to forget what it tastes like. That’s one thing. And secondly, we don’t have time to wait 15 years artificial meat to through because if we carry on eating the normal meat until then, there’s not going to be much of a world left.

Payman: Do you not think a thousand years ago someone was saying something similar about population and-

Keval Shah: Thousand years ago?

Payman: Yeah like when there was 1 billion people on the planet, people thought, “Oh the planet can’t make food for 2 billion.” And then-

Keval Shah: Well it was actually 1973 that one to one ratio started going downhill. So by that I mean our are our overshoot, it takes an earth one earth to sustain us. That was in 1973 sustain what we are taking in, what we are doing to the planet. Since then, we now we need two to three full earths to sustain what we’re taking and doing to our planet. So there’s problem of all population-

Payman: What do you mean by that?

Keval Shah: Well, when we’re living that where we’re consuming, right?

Payman: As an earth that we would be destroying.

Keval Shah: The amount of resources that are left on us before Earth can heal itself, right? We’ve, we’ve gone past that stage, right? So 1973 that’s very, very recent, right? The earth has been around for four and a half billion years. Life came on it three billion years. We separated from hominids about 4 million years ago. We became homo sapiens 200,000 years ago. It was only 10,000 years ago animal agriculture started, right? Since then, that’s when the downhill path started.

Keval Shah: I was actually talking to [inaudible] just two weeks ago and he’d read something similar and he was doing all the calculation stuff. He’s like, “Yeah, that’s,” We were actually nomad, we were nomadic humans living on the equator in the Savannah in wonderment of what’s around us plant foraging humans, right? And then when we discovered that we can actually do this confined beings and you can use them. 10,000 years ago it was 1% humans when it came to land biomass and 99% of wild animals. You just have to look out your window to see an elephant. That was it. That’s how amazing it was. Now it’s 1% of wild animals, 20% humans and so 78% domesticated animals, but 60% are birds being chickens right? Now since that current state was not something that happened a thousand years ago. It’s very, very recent and it’s exponential. It’s doesn’t, there’s not a linear relationship here. It just goes up straight. Do how many humans are born everyday?

Payman: Nope.

Keval Shah: Take a guess. After debts, it’s about 240,000-

Payman: Born a day.

Keval Shah: Every day. Each one of them will need schools, hospitals, houses, cars, roads where we’re going to get it from. So I feel that the other important thing after going plan B is to think about the size of the family that you want to have. Having one less child, one child per couple, it makes it actually better for your child there’s less competition for everything. Think about how hard it is to get a university in schools today than it was 20 years ago. How long you have to wait in A&E to get treatment cancer waiting list three months?

Keval Shah: So I think being aware and living consciously and knowing the answers there, specific answers, there’s nothing complicated about what’s happening, specific answers. If we know that it can make a change. Most of the time of my life I was confused. I wanted to make a change on thinking now I’m going to keep out some difference to this and it’s never enough. We’re just scratching the surface.

Prav Solanki: Just quick question about your personal life. Kind of your wife is Vegan also?

Keval Shah: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: I make the assumption.

Payman: I should hope so man.

Keval Shah: So thankfully she was vegan when I met her.

Prav Solanki: She was Vegan. That was the next question I was going to ask.

Keval Shah: Yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki: And did you meet through that connection? Community-

Keval Shah: No she’s a dentist.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Keval Shah: And we actually met through a doctor, one of the oral surgeons that we knew from North Hampton and he kind of brought us together and connected us. But-

Prav Solanki: What did he say? I know-

Keval Shah: My wife does a lot of charity work. And I tend to go to other countries once a year in to try and do dental service. We go to India every year to do that. And I used to go to Tanzania and I just learn. So he knew about that and my wife did similar things so he just put us together and we do it together now.

Prav Solanki: Nice. Awesome.

Keval Shah: She was Vegan for health reasons-

Prav Solanki: Oh really?

Keval Shah: But when she found out about what happens to animals, it was a no brainer. That was it. So, yeah, Rata than Ruby part of the family. And we would love each other and trying get along. And it’s really good. We were hopefully trying rescue more chickens this year to try and give them a home. And I know people say what’s rescuing two going to do? But for them it’s the whole universe that you’ll see for them.

Prav Solanki: Let’s imagine it’s your last day on this planet and you have three pieces of advice to leave the world. What will those be?

Keval Shah: Obviously number one, would be to go vegan.

Prav Solanki: Go vegan.

Keval Shah: Yeah. Secondly to not get distracted by Netflix and all the other shows that are on TV and social media just focus on what you have in front of you.

Keval Shah: Don’t get sucked into any of that. Just focus on what you have. Because that’s another black hole.

Prav Solanki: Don’t believe the hype.

Keval Shah: And thirdly, I think just live more consciously. Think about what we were doing every day when you wake up, think about what going to do, what’s your plan and how are you going to interact with people are you going to help someone actively? We just going to wait for things to pass by and things won’t change that way. Just be an active person, be an active member of society. So that change ripples out because the alternative is something that I don’t want to think of.

Prav Solanki: Brilliant. Thank you. Thanks very much. That’s been just been really insightful and I’m sure we’ll have a lot of listeners who’ve got a lot of questions.

Keval Shah: I’m sure and-

Prav Solanki: Am sure they’ll learn a lot as well. I mean, I’ve certainly learned a lot today, Pay?

Payman: Yeah.

Keval Shah: I’ll leave some links with you as well, some evidence based off-

Payman: Before we finish, what would be the best thing for someone like me who understands, who wants to stop but hasn’t yet, can’t, would be the best move. What would you say?

Keval Shah: I think-

Payman: You just get conscious. Okay.

Keval Shah: Yeah.

Payman: But that steak’s calling my name like, well what should I watch?

Payman: Like you watched, what was it called?

Prav Solanki: What The Health.

Prav Solanki: What The Health.

Payman: Yeah.

Keval Shah: So the one film that opened my mind up and just blew my mind completely was Earthlings.

Payman: Earthlings I’ve heard of Earthlings.

Keval Shah: Earthlings and the newest one is Dominion. If you could watch either one of them from start to finish and that’s a challenge. If you can do that, that’ll change the way you think-

Payman: Another friend of mine became Vegan after Earthlings as well.

Prav Solanki: Was that Netflix thing or?

Keval Shah: No, it was just free on the Internet. This was before Netflix even begun.

Prav Solanki: Okay. YouTube?

Keval Shah: Yeah. YouTube, or they have their own website as well, earthlings.com and you can find there. And then just faced it. Just be open to the truth. Don’t shy away from it and go to Vegan restaurants. There are so many now.

Payman: You know what it is? I know I should get up every morning and go for a run. I know that’s the right thing, but I don’t, so the challenge isn’t an information challenge. It’s acting on it, acting on the information challenge. Totally different. You can put out whatever you want. I know I should eat well, sleep well, all of that, but I don’t it.

Prav Solanki: And I think to me, you’ve got to want to do it, right? It’s got be the right moment in your life or the right time. There was a point, Keval, in your life where you thought what? Go into McDonald’s and eating chicken mcnuggets is not the right thing to do. There was a point in my time when I realised if I don’t prioritise my health every day, I’m actively killing myself.

Payman: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. I decided to take an action and before that happened, I was quite happily stuffing my face with pizzas every day whatever and just not looking after myself and not exercising. I think sometimes it takes a transition or a shock or an event that makes you want to say, “You know what? I’m going to turn my life around.” And it could be that one trigger that goes off and says ” You know what, today’s the first day I’m going to start living a different way.” Whether that’s health, whether that’s making the choices of no longer eating meat, fish and dairy anymore I truly do believe that. As Payman sat there saying, “I don’t go for a run. I know I should, I smoke every day. I know I shouldn’t.”

Payman: Do you mate? But you see on thing, it’s about information.

Prav Solanki: No, no. It’s not an information you shouldn’t smoke, right? Yeah.

Keval Shah: You’re absolutely right. Yeah. You have to want to do it. And for most of us, it usually takes the death of someone close to us to really shake us up when we lose someone we love and we just think, “Okay, how many days do I have now? What should I be doing?”-

Payman: You know what happens? When that happens, can I have more fun? Like honestly that I do-

Prav Solanki: Total opposite.

Payman: We’re all at the age where people have died in our lives, right? When someone really close to me dies, go dive deeper into all the things that are wrong.

Prav Solanki: Self-destruct mode?

Payman: You know what I mean I started saying, “Hey man, I’m going to go to Ibiza now, time’s running out.”

Payman: He’s looking at me with eyes of pity.

Keval Shah: Or you can look at your children and say what do I want to leave for them? And you want the best for your kids, right? So I think it’s about the reasons you just look at any of the reasons that connect with you and just follow it up with that. But I really urge people who know now it’s time to act.

Keval Shah: Time to tell others about it. And now that we know we can do something about it. And I just want people to get more active, including myself as a message to myself as well. I can be, a lot more than what I’m doing.

Payman: I’m going to the family is going to sit down and watch Earthlings together. We’ll start there-

Keval Shah: And then let me know how it goes.

Payman: Brilliant.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And then I’ll meet you for a soya burger buddy.

Payman: Yeah

Keval Shah: I saw that today. Did you like it?

Prav Solanki: It’s really nice. Really Nice.

Payman: Dude is really difficult. He’s vegetarian and keto. And Camden’s full of like vegan places. Because like everything’s going to be just fine. Took them to all these vegan places. Couldn’t eat-

Keval Shah: It’s the sugar isn’ it.

Payman: A lot of it’s bread, that sort of thing, potatoes.

Prav Solanki: The worst nightmare I left for, to be catered for, right? So there’s no carbs, no bread, no rice, no potatoes, no sugar.

Keval Shah: But when did carbs get a bad name?

Prav Solanki: When did they get a good name?

Keval Shah: Complex carbohydrates were fine for us, aint they?

Prav Solanki: Depends what school of thought you believe as well. I don’t think carbs are particularly bad or dangerous or whatever. I know I’m very sensitive to carbs. I know I respond very well on a ketogenic diet. I know I’m more mentally focused when my body’s in ketosis than when it’s relying on fueling it, right? So I personally know how my body works, but I’m definitely not evangelical about like go keto, right? But we all know that I think there’s a lot of evidence that points to the fact that things like diabetes and the main cardiac diseases to actually come down to a insulin resistance rather than too much fat in your diet.

Payman: Yeah.

Keval Shah: So I think sugar got a lot to blame there, but I’m doing it partially for health reasons, but more so for, I know I can accelerate weight loss really, really quickly by fasting and keto. Doing keto as a meat eater, is a walk in the park. Doing Keto as a vegetarian.

Payman: Tough man. Bloody hard.

Prav Solanki: Really hard.

Payman: I mean, if you were Vegan and keto, you will have literally very little to eat.

Keval Shah: Yep. Brilliant.

Prav Solanki: But you still got soya used, they would be eating-

Payman: Plants

Prav Solanki: It will be tough.

Keval Shah: Yeah. Lentils, beans. But [crosstalk] the monk is good.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. But this carbs and so I on a ketogenic diet, you’ve got to keep your total carb intake. Net carb intake. That means you take your carbs and you minus the fibre in the food less than 20 grammes a day.

Prav Solanki: That’s what I’m doing at the moment. Bloody hard.

Payman: And if you fall off out of it, how long does it take to get back into-

Prav Solanki: For different people, right? But I personally know I can get straight back in 48 hours.

Payman: So you can go for a Big mac right now.

Prav Solanki: But I choose not to-

Payman: No but I’m saying 48 hours you can get back onto-

Prav Solanki: Back into ketosis. Because I know what I need to do exercise wise to deplete my glycogen.

Payman: Oh, it’s just what you eat?

Prav Solanki: Well, there is that and also like I can go home and do a glycogen depletion workout today.

Payman: What’s that?

Prav Solanki: And just blast my liver.

Payman: Is that lifting heavy weights?

Prav Solanki: So I’d go high rep range, full body workout, followed by a hit workout, 10 minute hit workout. And I know I deplete my muscle stroke, liver glycogen stores. And then I’d been in process where I’m not eating any more sugar at fast for a day. Boom. 48 hours I’m back to ketosis. No problem.

Payman: How’d you test it?

Prav Solanki: Blood.

Payman: Oh you do?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Really quick.

Payman: It’s high level man.

Prav Solanki: Anyway, I diverse.

Payman: Thanks for coming in. Thanks for bringing the Chickens in. It’s the first-

Prav Solanki: Finish, a huge education. I’d love to get a selfie with them.

Keval Shah: I really appreciate you guys having me here as well because it means a lot.

Payman: We didn’t really talk teeth much, but that’s the point of the podcast.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And it’s more understanding the depth of it, your motivation, your mission, your crusade, what you’re trying to do. I think it’s brilliant. I think it’s really very good and everything that we put out there we’re going to try and push whosever voice is for the people learn more about you and we grow your voice, right? As everyone so we really appreciate you giving up your afternoon, to come here and subsequently educate us all.

Keval Shah: Well, thank you. And just to add I feel that there’s a lot of people out there want to do a lot of good, but sometimes people just don’t know that they can do things that they would create massive change. And I think putting that out there will really help.

Prav Solanki: Sometimes people just need a little bit of direction.

Keval Shah: Exactly.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Don’t know where to start and what to do, don’t know what tiny things they can do to make a little change.

Keval Shah: Thank you.

Voiceover: This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry, your host Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thank you for tuning in guys to the Dental Leaders Podcast. Just got little requests to make. If you’ve got a suggestion of somebody else who we should be interviewing or somebody who’s got a really strong story, powerful story to share with us, please send us a message and help us connect with that individual so we can bring their stories to the surface.

Payman: Thank you so much for taking the time, guys. And if you’ve got some value out of it, think about sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the channel.

Transcript

Prav Solanki: Hey guys, welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast. Our next guest, two words, Firmino and Klopp. Robbie Hughes, superstar in dentistry. Just being in the room with this guy. Love him or hate him or whatever it is about this guy, you can feel the drive, the passion, the energy, the ambition. And he’s already flying, so many positive conversations about his early life being a world-class kickboxing champion, right through to the dentistry that he’s doing for the footballers and being a real networker. It just felt like a privilege being in the room with the guy and how he addressed a lot of the flack has been getting off social media as well.

Payman L: Way more impressive than I was expecting it to be. And bringing, treating dentistry like he treats the sports, in a way. The way a pro athlete would treat it. Super, super, super impressed by the guy. I think you’re going to enjoy guys.

Prav Solanki: Enjoy.

Robbie Hughes: I try to break down that big picture into small stepping stones. And I become obsessed with that stepping stone until I meet it and then I want to go to the next one. And I’m constantly obsessed with something and the close people around around me, even now, mainly my wife, well tell me that. And it’s not her than I’m obsessed with, unfortunately.

Intro Voice: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langrudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: So today we’ve got Robbie Hughes from Liverpool. Really lovely to have your here. I’ve never met you before, but I feel like I’ve virtually met you because I see you all over Instagram. I think a lot of people refer to you as the Instagram guy and a lot of people look to imitate what you do. So I think what’s going to be really interesting today is getting a bit more of an insight into who you are, the real Robbie. How you got to where you are, how you grew up and the background behind it also. Robbie, if you could just kick off by just telling us how you grew up and just your general background. I know we’ve just had a little chat about your sporting background and stuff. So just tell us what your upbringing was like.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah. I grew up in Liverpool, in a district called Wavertree. Nothing classy about Wavertree, I’ll be honest with you. Working class background, hardworking family. Two older sisters and I’m the youngest of three. So with regards to me sports, from the age of about six, I was involved in kickboxing. It’s just something that my father decided to take me along to one day. And he had a friend who ran the kickboxing school. He was a local champion, very, very successful. And I suppose it was just, at first, getting into a hobby at that age, six years of age, it’s just finding something that you enjoy really. And that was a big part of my life then for 20 years. Yeah, that’s the sport background. Really. Cool.

Prav Solanki: So tell us what happened next. Your accolades in kickboxing. Talk us through your first competition right through to-

Robbie Hughes: So it was something that I got into immediately, really started to enjoy. Wanted to compete, wanted to get better. A little bit of an natural talent definitely I would say, quite a flexible kid. So kicking wasn’t difficult for me. First tournament at age seven in Manchester, obviously I got beat. Sport just made me want to train harder, get better. From there I became a multiple world champion, 10 times in total. That was five years running as a junior, from 1997 till 2001 I think. And then five years running as a senior, as an adult competitor. Got to travel the world, kickboxing. Massive parts of my life encouraged me to train hard work hard on anything that I do really and have a clear goal and a vision. And it’s really formed my mentality as a a bit of a competitor I suppose. Yeah, enjoyed every minute of it. Shame the days have gone but you can’t run a business and compete at that level unfortunately, at the same time.

Payman L: What about during school as a kickboxing champion? What was your day like? What was your week like? How many times did you train?

Robbie Hughes: When I was a junior, so when I was under 16, the training was different. So I used to train basically every night after school. If there was a big competition coming up, we would often go for runs around the park and train as a group in the morning before school, like 6:00, 6:30 AM runs. School was fine, everyone knew me as the kickboxer so I never got picked on. That was easy. And then moving through the school, obviously GCSEs, A levels. I did have to have little periods, little breaks, mainly from my parent’s choice, not my choice. So when exams were coming up in say three or four months, the after school training was sort of put aside, focusing on revision and homework and things like that.

Payman L: Was it your dad taking you around to these tournaments and things?

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, me and my dad travelled the world together because of kickboxing, which is something obviously I’m very, very grateful for.

Payman L: Is he a sporty guy himself?

Robbie Hughes: He was when he was younger, he was a high board diver.

Payman L: Oh.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, completely different sports. He wasn’t a fighter, but yeah, he was quite as quite as a sporty person himself.

Payman L: You forget sometimes you know the sacrifice that the whole family makes at that level.

Robbie Hughes: You only realise when it’s finished really and you look back. And now I’ve got two children myself.

Prav Solanki: You realise.

Robbie Hughes: My boy’s five years old and when I think about the dedication, time my dad gave to me from when I started in the sport and I wanted to always be there and travel and do everything. It’s a huge commitment. So yeah, for forever thankful for that really.

Payman L: Because I take my boy to football three times a week and complain about it. I’m like, does it have to be three times a week? And at that level, it must be the number one, the most important thing. And so, do you remember as a child missing out on anything because of-

Robbie Hughes: For me, I loved kickboxing so much, I never felt like I was missing out. Every weekend I was travelling somewhere to attend a seminar or fight in a competition. And most of the time it was just me and my dad. And then obviously teammates, but my teammates were my friends as well. And a lot of those people that I grew up with from the martial arts background are still good friends now. So, I never felt like I was missing out on anything though.

Prav Solanki: Would you say you were academically gifted? Because obviously having to put in the time, the energy, the dedication into becoming a world class athlete and still at the same time qualifying dentistry, it’s not an insignificant-

Robbie Hughes: I wouldn’t say I’m academically gifted. I would say that it’s the martial arts and that level of discipline that got me through university, I’d like to say relatively easily if I’m honest, without actually realising the amount of hours of dedication that I’m putting into both fields, both sides of my life. But it’s imprinted in me. And so, that number of hours, hard work, whether it’s in gym at the time or uni work, it was never abnormal to me.

Prav Solanki: So when you were doing, let’s say your GCSEs or your A levels, was that just pure graft, pure hours?

Robbie Hughes: Everything about me is pure graft.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, I wouldn’t say academically gifted at all. I just say, I know what I’ve got to do and I get it done. And it’s that simple really.

Payman L: Because there’s a degree of obsession, isn’t there? In some ways we all want to be the best in the world at something, but to execute it, execute on it.

Prav Solanki: I think with Robbie, and I’ve had elements of it in my life, nowhere near to that level. When I competed in bodybuilding, you become an incredibly selfish individual and you just chase that one goal. Whether it’s your nutrition that revolves around that, your training programme. And if anything gets in the way you kick out of the way and you just steam train towards that goal. And for you it must have been similar, maybe even to a more intense-

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, I think the word obsession is the right word. You have this vision or I always have this vision in my mind and these visions don’t go away. It’s the person that I am, I always have a new vision, a new goal. And I try to break down that big picture into small stepping stones and I become obsessed with that stepping stone until I meet it and then I want to go to the next one. And I’m constantly obsessed with something and the closest people around me, even now, mainly my wife will tell me that. And it’s not her that I’m obsessed with, unfortunately.

Robbie Hughes: You’ll have to cut that one out.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, I was going to say, maybe she was an obsession before you’d got with her, right. And then once you’d-

Robbie Hughes: Well actually, yeah, that’s a different story.

Payman L: So then, in dental school, what was your routine like as far as training, studying? So take us through a day of dental school.

Robbie Hughes: Dental school was very different for me. I think you’ll struggle to find your typical dental student that went through dental school the way I did.

Prav Solanki: Which school?

Robbie Hughes: Liverpool University. Stayed at home with parents. I wanted the same life that I had before, I didn’t want the uni life, that wasn’t for me.

Prav Solanki: You weren’t out partying, drinking?

Robbie Hughes: No, complete opposite really. I was competing on a very high level at that time. So I would train in the morning, I’d go to uni, I’d train in the evening. If I had time, a long lunch period in the afternoon, I’d train on my lunch time. And I was still doing that right through to being second year into being an associate. So the whole, going for drinks after uni, going to events in the evening, that just wasn’t me. And again, like you say, you become a little bit obsessed or potentially selfish. I didn’t look at it at the time as being selfish, but looking back, people probably think I was-

Payman L: In your own world.

Robbie Hughes: In my own world. And it wasn’t like it wasn’t friendly with people but my friends were in Liverpool anyway. I didn’t have to make huge efforts. Without sounding bad, I just knew what I needed to do. I was there to graduate and that was it really in my mind.

Prav Solanki: Did you or did you have any relationships at the time, girlfriends or anything like that? And how did that approach or lifestyle impact on that?

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, I did. I did through the majority. I think it was through three out of the five years of uni I had a girlfriend. But again, when when you meet somebody new and your lifestyle is what it is, then suppose people accept you for that before they you any commitments. And that’s the same as what my wife has done now she, she knows the type of person that I am and-

Payman L: What gave you the foresight to go to dentistry? A lot of young kids would be good at sport and they won’t have that foresight to take care of what happens after the sport finishes. You know what I mean? You’re not getting footballers doing dentistry.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, well dentist dentistry for me was always a career. Kickboxing was never career.

Payman L: Because it didn’t pay, is that-

Robbie Hughes: Because it didn’t pay. Yeah, like I said earlier, I’ve always had a bit of an entrepreneurial mindset and I have found ways to make money and income through kickboxing, through teaching seminars and making a nine volume DVD set that have sold relatively well. But it was never going to be a career for me. And what attracted me about dentistry was, I was always good at sciences at school, biology, had the general interest in the medical fields. But dentistry for me, again, it allowed me to have a mindset and a vision that I knew that as soon as I qualified and knew the type of dentist I wanted it to be and I wanted to get quickly into my own business with my own stamp on things as quickly as I possibly could.

Payman L: But just take me back to the first time you thought dentistry. Why dentistry? Was there someone, a dentist, someone?

Robbie Hughes: It all started with school, careers conventions as they do. You’re good at these topics, we advise you to go for these. You go for your weeks training and I choose a local dentist. I had a good relationship with my dentist because he used to make me gum shields for my sport. So I had a good relationship with them.

Payman L: Who as that?

Robbie Hughes: It was a guy called Dr. Khan in Liverpool. At the time, he was the cosmetic dentist.

Prav Solanki: Celebrity guy, right? Celebrity dentist.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah. So he was quite influential to me as a 15-year-old boy.

Payman L: You liked his Mercedes or whatever.

Robbie Hughes: Of course.

Payman L: Is that what it was?

Robbie Hughes: I’ll never forget, he said to me, “What car do you want to drive, Rob?” And at the time, I think BMW just released the X5 and that was the car for me. So I said, “I’d love to drive an X5.” And he said to me, “You want to be a cosmetic dentist?” And I said yeah. And he said, “Aim higher. You can have a Ferrari if you want.” But that’s never really been my drive. Listening to people in business, and I have got a massive interest in business, how businesses grow and evolve. And I believe that if you provide the right level of service, or nowadays experience I think is the buzzword, it’s the big word, what people want, find value in a brand, it’s about experience. Then the pennies will come your way. If you focus on the money then you’re focused in the wrong place and you’re going to start upsetting people along the way. That’s the way the way I think really.

Prav Solanki: Just talk me through how you first got into business. You mentioned earlier you were selling DVD courses and stuff of like that. So naturally, being an entrepreneur is in your blood, or part of your DNA, of who you are. Just talk us through your very first business idea and what your vision was and what your drive was behind that.

Robbie Hughes: With dentistry do you mean?

Prav Solanki: No, before that.

Robbie Hughes: In general?

Prav Solanki: My first foray into business was cleaning my dad’s taxi and then his mates taxis and finding money under the mats in the car and ripping the seats up and all the rest of it. And I can just almost relate to you when you said, when you were younger, you just started doing seminars and stuff. That’s not what a typical kickboxer would do is it?

Robbie Hughes: I wouldn’t say it was typical, but there was a a market for it. So again, quite cleverly just used my business mind. I know we used to travel a lot to compete and when you compete there’s thousands of people in that area for that tournament, usually on a Sunday. So I used to try and let people know that I’ll be there on a Saturday, go a day early and we’ll teach a seminar. So the numbers weren’t difficult to find because people were going there anyway. And then obviously you have a centralised place where there’s people from all over the country coming to one place. I was a relatively big name in the sport at the time. You know, you could get a hundred people in the room, 25 pound a pop, I just walked away with two and a half grand and I’m 14 years old. So that was probably my first business idea. And this was before the internet was big. I remember advertising on Myspace for this. So that’s how long ago it was.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Robbie Hughes: And then on the back end of that, the DVD series comes to mind. So we recorded for four days flat out and recorded nine volumes, which was basically the whole syllabus of techniques that we teach at my dojo. And tips and tricks for competition and all that. And that flew as well. So then we used to set up like a little mini store at the tournament’s and sell the DVDs.

Payman L: When you see, sorry, sorry. When you see UFC now. If UFC existed back then or if it was as big as it is now, do you think you might have made some money as a fighter?

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, the opportunity would have definitely been there. I had an opportunity just before I retired in 2012 for the London Olympics, for TaeKwonDo. So, even though that wasn’t my background, the GB squad wanted me to compete in the 2012 London Olympics. And that was a big decision in my life. Yeah, so this opportunity came around 2011, at the beginning. And I had to make the decision to either move to Manchester full-time, because they wanted me to train full-time, with a guaranteed place at the Olympics, London, 2012, TaeKwonDo. Or not basically and focus on my dental career. I tried to negotiate with them and split my time 50-50, but obviously they weren’t happy to do that and bend the rules for one individual. So I turned down the offer and focused on my longterm vision of pretty much where I am now or where I’m trying to be.

Prav Solanki: As a 14, 15 year old kid, you decided to start creating content?

Robbie Hughes: Basically, yeah.

Prav Solanki: And I think that’s probably where you started shaping what you do today. Because I think a big part of what you do is create content that engages with your audience. And you just said to me, I knew there were going to be a hundred people there, you knew who your audience were, you knew where they were going to be, and you knew exactly what they wanted. How has that learning translated into how you run your business today?

Robbie Hughes: It’s obviously embedded within me. And the way you’ve just put it, to be honest, I’ve never really thought of it that way. Going that far back or, yeah, it’s exactly the same mindsets, exact the same approach to your audience. And I think the biggest learning curve is know your audience. The more you can narrow down that audience to your niche and not be scared to commit to a niche audience rather than be too broad, then the better your content is going to be and the more hits and the more success and conversions you’re going to get.

Prav Solanki: Just talk to me. How specific are you about your audience really? You just literally, without thinking about it like that, you said, my audience is this age to this age, this demographic. How have you nailed that down and just tell me who is your audience?

Robbie Hughes: So my audience is 70% female. We would say age between 20 and 35. That doesn’t mean that it’s our only type of patient, but I would say it’s probably 80%, 75% of our patients. But we know that these patients refer a lot of other patients, which can be the parents, the grandparents, the aunties, the uncles. So I don’t worry about that demographic of people because they come anyway on the back end of these people. Nowadays, this young generation within that demographic are the most influenced and the most easily influenced people out there. Now we’re not trying to sell them something, I don’t like to use that word. All we’re trying to do is offer them an experience and prove our quality in what we can produce and follow the market trends and be at the forefront of that, which for me at the moment is digital dentistry and composite bonding. That’s it really, know your audience.

Payman L: So we should really backtrack a little bit to say, okay, you bought your practise after you retired as a fighter. And then, what was the moment when … I mean, I guess you knew from the beginning you wanted something special, but when you made that decision to go for what you’ve done now in Dental Excellence, which I don’t know if the audience, our audience hasn’t seen it, they need to look it up because it’s the most beautiful places I’ve ever seen, dental practises. Yeah, what what made you do that? What was the thinking behind making Dental Excellence the way it is?

Robbie Hughes: The way it is today?

Payman L: Like a boutique.

Robbie Hughes: Again, to be honest with you, the audience, combined with the type of dentistry we were delivering, combined with the amount of education hours I was getting within the field and seeing the way dentistry was going with the trends. Everyone was becoming very digital. Everyone was about experience, capturing emotion, all these things, a lot of the original DSD concepts from 2014. So it was understanding that approach at dentistry, understanding the patients and the experience and where dentistry is going. The big turning factor for me or the big obvious thing for me, and I’ve always said this for a very, very long time, is we’re trying to deliver 21st century dentistry and we have the technology to do that now. We have the precision, we have the predictability, we have everything in our fingertips. It’s just a bit of a learning curve and a bit of an investment.

Robbie Hughes: What bogs me is the patients is starting to know about that, but their preconceptions or their perceptions of dentistry is not what it should be. They expect an old smelly room with smells they don’t want to smell. Anxious people, old grey-haired dentists. The two just don’t combine. So for me, I needed to create an environment which represented what we actually do. And then with that we can change the perception of the patients. None of my patients sit down feeling the least bit nervous, no matter what we’re doing. It just doesn’t happen because we remove all the perceptions of what dentistry used to be. And that’s why I had to create the facility the way it is.

Payman L: Neither me or Prav have been there but we’ve seen some pictures. Other than it’s very swanky, what else? Experience wise, walk me through it.

Robbie Hughes: The experience makes you feel like … The whole experiences is that you’ve got to be the most important person in that building. So, you asked me earlier where that I get it from, lifestyle? Yeah, I like to have a nice lifestyle, I like to travel to Dubai, I like five star hotels, I like nice restaurants. How do you feel when you go to these places? There’s somebody waiting to see you. They know your name before you walk through the door. They wait on hand and foot. Everything’s very personalised. Everything is customised to you. Private, so-

Payman L: So do you get information, let’s say it’s a brand new patient, do you try and look them up before they turn up so you know who they are? What do you do?

Robbie Hughes: We tried that, but we’re too busy. We had a little time where we’d Google the patient, find out what they look like so you know it’s them. But to be honest with you, they come in for an appointment. You know most of the time.

Payman L: So you know who they are? And are you recording their likes and dislikes throughout, what are you doing to make-

Prav Solanki: What’s the … I’m a patient, I walk through your front door. What happens next?

Robbie Hughes: Okay, so first and foremost we have no reception desk. So if you go to a nice boutique hotel, you go to a nice restaurant, you’re not standing in a queue behind a reception desk to be seen. We have a concierge. So, a lot of my staff and what I would say my infrastructure of my organisation now, it’s not like a dental practise. We don’t have a practise manager. We have departments that I feel the organisation needs. And I look at my business now, it’s only a small business, but I look at it as an organisation because I want my business to be scalable. My vision for my businesses is I want to be the Louis Vuitton of dentistry.

Robbie Hughes: So you may go to Louis Vuitton and you might buy a key ring for this big for 30 pound, 50 pound, I don’t know. You might go to Louis Vuitton, you might buy the most expensive suitcase. Experience is exactly the same. So one keyword for me, I’ve got all this luxury and quality and all these things we boast about, the thing we want is accessibility for everybody. And that doesn’t mean your experience should change. Yeah, we do see all these celebrities and multimillionaires and all these, but that is not necessarily my market. And the market is as broad as we want it to be. As in, we want it to be accessible and affordable and we want to offer the different treatments that you have. So, it’s bringing that level of luxury to somebody who expects it or doesn’t expect it I suppose, but it’s still accessible.

Payman L: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So talk me through the process, I walk through your door, there’s no reception desk.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: I’m just trying to visualise it now, close my eyes. Somebody greets me? I walk up to a counter? What is it?

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, so the minute you walk through the door, we have a girl on what we call the pod, which is if you imagine a little small booth like you would find in a restaurant. The door’s on a buzzer so she knows that they’re there. The door’s buzzed, she’ll open the door, she’ll greet them at the door, ideally call them by the first name, sit them down. Again, the waiting room is not a normal waiting room, it’s split into three or four different small, private areas. It doesn’t mean you’re going to be the only person in that area, but the way it’s set out, again, it’s like a bit of a lounge area in a hotel where you can sit and you feel in private.

Robbie Hughes: So there’ll be seated in a position where we know they’re going to be comfortable. And then if it’s a new patients, obviously there’s a little bit of paperwork or whatever to fill out, a bit of admin to do, which we try to always do on an iPad. And then we take it from there really, depending on what they’re in for.

Prav Solanki: And so, welcome drinks? Anything like that?

Robbie Hughes: Always offer them welcome drink, yeah. So we have a little menu for the welcome drink. Tea, coffee, green tea, water, wifi pass code.

Payman L: Do you find, do you hire your staff from outside dentistry?

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, as much as I can, yeah.

Payman L: A lot from people who want to go really high end.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah.

Payman L: Do you look to hotels or something or-

Robbie Hughes: Again, I try to go off referrals as much as I can from experience. The people who have been referred to me, who know someone who can vouch for them, and I know a little bit about them before I actually meet them, that’s always better. Because, I’m not going to say I’m the easiest person to work for, to be honest with you.

Payman L: Go on then. Why? Why is that?

Robbie Hughes: Because-

Payman L: You’re a tough boss?

Robbie Hughes: I wouldn’t say I’m a tough boss, I believe that I’m a good boss in my own ways. For my vision or my level of acceptance of what is expected and what is exceptional, I always want exceptional.

Payman L: Yeah.

Robbie Hughes: So if my staff are doing what’s expected of them or the tiniest little thing goes off, I always say it’s the small things that account to a big thing in somebody’s experience.

Payman L: Very true, very true.

Robbie Hughes: So I nitpick. So you might think you’ve had an amazing day work and at the end of the day I’ll give you five things that I’ll nitpick at. And they’re like, “Oh, it’s my expectation.” Because essentially it’s my vision and they’re my team and I want them to be a part of what I’m trying to create.

Payman L: Is that scalable, Robbie, do you think?

Robbie Hughes: Is that scalable?

Prav Solanki: Is that element-

Payman L: Is that element scalable? It is, because if I walk into Louis Vuitton in Moscow, I get an amazing experience, if I walk into Louis Vuitton in London, it is.

Robbie Hughes: Exactly.

Payman L: But there is, and it’s quite a common thing, that people like you, super perfectionists, also struggle with trust.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah.

Payman L: Yeah?

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, I agree.

Payman L: And people who struggle with trust, struggle with scaling.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah.

Payman L: Yeah, because you’ve got a centre in Edinburgh, you’re not there, you can’t do it.

Robbie Hughes: I believe that I can find the right clinicians who I can mould into me. And the trust element will come with your financial investment in me.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robbie Hughes: If you’re financially invested in a partner in Dental Excellence London or Dental Excellence Edinburgh, then I know I’ve got your trust because you don’t want that business to turn upside down. And that’s why I believe it’s scalable. If I tried to do it alone and I’m 100% invested in every site and I can’t be in every site, it’s not going to work. So that’s the way I think it will work for me.

Payman L: I mean, look, it does work, right? Like I said.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Absolutely. And the one thing I’ll say about my brother’s practise, Practise One, he’s there all the time and he knows the practise that he’s in is making the money. He goes to Altrincham, today Altrincham’s making the money.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And people take their eye off the ball and you’re the visionary, you’re the leader. That’s where the money will be. And I think quite rightly, as you said, you need to find a mini Robbie, who has the same passion, the same vision or is moldable. And that I think is the hardest part of trying to scale a business really, is when you’re away from it and it still delivers what you do, I think that’s when you’ve cracked it. And so what are visions and plans now in terms of scaling Dental Excellence? You talked about London, Edinburgh. Have you got other cities on the horizon?

Robbie Hughes: Edinburgh was just a random city that I chose, to be honest. I’ve got to come to London at some point. The market’s too big and London needs a Dental Excellence, I’m not going to lie, but to be honest with you, again, this is a vision, but it’s not something I’m forcing. I’ve got a great business. It’s not even a year old yet. I’ve got a lot of plans for that business. We’ve got a lot of opportunity within that business. I’m not going to sort of turn the heat down there to try and find another location too quick, too soon. When the opportunity comes, I’ll know.

Payman L: Yeah, that’s a really good way of looking at, that, because it’s not a competition. It’s a funny way of saying it. It is a competition, of course. Let’s not beat about the bush. It is a competition.

Robbie Hughes: I don’t look at dentistry as a competition in a sense that I want to be number one. Well I don’t want to be number one. My ego is not that big. I want Dental Excellence to be number one, and I was explaining before, people talk about the Instagram guy. I’ve massively descaled the speed of my Instagram so I could focus on the Dental Excellence Instagram. So if you look at the growth over the last six months, which Dental Excellence has had its own Instagram only for seven, eight months, we’ve got 25,000 followers in seven, eight months. And that’s just from me taking my focus from Dr Robbie Hughes’ Instagram to Dental Excellence Instagram, because essentially I’m trying to build the brand.

Payman L: I following the wrong account, aren’t I?

Robbie Hughes: I’m trying to build a brand. I’m not trying to … I can only be in one place at once, and I’ve got a young family, and I want to be there more than I want to be anywhere else at the end of the day, but my vision’s clear, and I believe, like you said, in my mind it’s Louis Vuitton of dentistry and when I’m there I’ll know I’m there, but I’m a million miles away yet.

Prav Solanki: So just for the listeners now, because I think some of the listeners might be thinking that you’re a businessman who’s been involved in dentistry for many, many years, you’re only 34, is that right?

Robbie Hughes: 34, yeah.

Prav Solanki: 34. Just quickly, quickly, just go through the timeline. Qualified in dentistry at this point, bought the practise at this point, have been running my practise at this point, and, in the meantime, had children at this point. I just want people to realise what you’ve been through in terms of the timeline.

Robbie Hughes: Okay. So I qualified in 2008. I did a year’s VT. I started building essentially, like I mentioned before, my own patients’ trust by very quickly getting into the Botox and fillers industry. I done that immediately as a VT, and then, when I was working as a VT, every evening I was in a different salon around Liverpool, treating people with Botox and dermal fillers, and also doing tooth whitening. I had a mini-lab with a former and plaster, so I was still in my mom’s house at the time. I used to go home. I’d probably get home from the salons about 10:00, 10:30, and I’d cast up the models from the tooth whitening. The next day I’d make them, and then physically go and drop these tooth whitening kits out to the people that had purchased them the day before.

Prav Solanki: Whilst you were in your VT year.

Robbie Hughes: While I was in VT. That was my only access to funds in VT, because everyone knows a VT’s salary. And I’m not saying it was about money, but it was about drive, and building this network, and getting my name out in the city now as a dentist and no longer as a martial artist, because that’s all I was known as. And I built that over say three years. After VT, I moved to a dental practise in Crosby in North Liverpool, which was a great practise for me. It was a great setup because the principal was very laid back, very laid back.

Prav Solanki: Wasn’t a guy called Peter, was it?

Robbie Hughes: Peter, yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, Doyle.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, that’s right.

Prav Solanki: Small world. Nice guy.

Robbie Hughes: So I worked for Peter Doyle for about three years. Great guy. Really nice guy. Let me do anything. So if there was a patient … He had quite a reasonable contract as well. So the patients would have a NHS contract, exempt NHS patients, if not, they were private, there’s no in between. So I had a really good mix of patients, and if I had an exempt patient who needed three to three crowns, four to four crowns, needed them, dentally needed them because they’re heavily restored or whatever, peter would share the lab bill with me. Now from a UDA value, we’re both losing money, but from regards to prep and teeth, crowns, bridges, veneers, I’ve got experienced very, very fast from that practise.

Robbie Hughes: And then on the back end of that, once Peter was seeing this work and the private patients were coming through, he gave you some more trust. And obviously I was building my network of clients for the Botox and fillers, so they had my trust, so they wanted to know where I was working, I was performing veneers on them one, two years qualified, and in my opinion I was doing decent work, I was doing the courses, and I was doing decent work, but go on as many courses as you want in the world, experience. And one thing I can do, I can prep. I’ll tell you that. I a prepped a lot of teeth in a short space of time. So that was where it all started.

Payman L: Were you still going to the salons, or not anymore?

Robbie Hughes: I was still going to the salons for about five years. So from 2008 to 2013, I was doing that.

Payman L: Were you just walking into a salon and saying, “I want to do this for you?”

Robbie Hughes: Like I said, network. I know a lot of people in the city. A lot of people will help me in Liverpool. Got access to a lot of people, got a lot of friends, so that was easy.

Payman L: Because of the martial arts.

Robbie Hughes: Just essentially I’ve just got a lot of friends in the city. I’m well-known. I’m a likeable person, I like to think, when you get to know me, and I’m a good networker. I’m not scared to ask somebody a question, or learn from somebody, and that’s where it all began. So it would have been 2010, about halfway through. So I was doing three days with Peter Doyle, or four days of Peter Doyle, and one day off, because of me martial arts, and took on another job at Dental Excellence with the-

Payman L: Previous owner.

Robbie Hughes: Previous owner. Dental Excellence was a small practise. It was previous owner, he worked three and a half days a week. He had two nurses and a receptionists, and I came in as an associate. And the reason why I came in as associate is because he was ready to retire.

Payman L: And was it a well-known practise? What kind of practise was Dental Excellence?

Robbie Hughes: Again, I was fortunate. It wasn’t a well-known practise, but his clientele was really good, and he was known for smile makeovers, and he was a good dentist.

Payman L: So it was a private practise.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, private practise.

Prav Solanki: Who was the dentist?

Robbie Hughes: A guy called Jeff Lamb. And he was a good dentist, and that’s where I really learned how to do veneers. Off Jeff. Minimal prep, all in enamel, learning how to bond, learned how to provisionalize. All these things I learned from Jeff over a period about two years, 18 months potentially. I knew Jeff wanted to sell. That was my opportunity. So over that 18 months I got to know the existing patients, and I was bringing all these people that wanted to see me, as I was getting more confident in dentistry, to Dental Excellence, because I knew this was the place where I was going to be.

Robbie Hughes: 2012, the opportunity come to purchase the practise. It was difficult. I was, what, four years qualified. Banks didn’t believe in me. I didn’t have a lot of money, and obviously I had to buy this practise. So I got there. Me dad let me put a charge on his property, on the family home, because he believed in me that much, to get the loan from the bank. Like they say, there’s no risk, no reward, is there? So I begged them, because I believed in it. So we did that. I got the loan, I bought the practise, never looked back from there. So I had myself, five days a week worth of work to do, doing everything I could. That’s when I quickly learnt that dentistry is not about being a jack of all trades. And I wanted to learn the things I weren’t good at, like endo, or refer the things I weren’t good at, and build my team as quickly as I possibly could, as I grew the business really, and do only what I wanted to do.

Prav Solanki: At what time did you have your children?

Robbie Hughes: So that was 2012. My son was born in 2013, in August 2013, while I was just growing a business. I got married in 2014, maybe 2015, in June. And then I had my second child in 2016. Yeah, in May 2016.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Robbie Hughes: So yeah. So four years married this June. My son is six in August. While that was going on the vision was still exactly the same.

Payman L: So as soon as you bought it, you were thinking expansion-

Robbie Hughes: Straight away. Yeah, so I worked on my own for about two years. Maybe 18 months.

Payman L: Look Robbie, I get it. I get that you’ve got that fighter mindset, right. So if you’ve set a goal, you’ll achieve it sort of thing. But most people buy a practise, they’ll work the practise.

Robbie Hughes: They’ll be happy.

Payman L: Work the practise.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah.

Payman L: So is it martial arts where that comes from? That need to improve and expand. Or where does that come from? Were you always like that?

Robbie Hughes: It’s just a burning desire within me. No-one can ever put a limitation on-

Payman L: But what do you want to be? Do you want to be famous? Do You want to be rich?

Robbie Hughes: I don’t.

Payman L: What’s driving you?

Robbie Hughes: No, I don’t want to be famous, as much as you think. Yeah, that’s not a priority for me. I’m driven by success, and if I believe something can be better for the end user … This is all about the patients. Everything I do is about the patients. It’s never anything else. I like a nice lifestyle. I like money, I’m not going to lie about that, but it’s not my drive. If your drive and hunger is, “I want more money, I need more money,” then you’re doing it the wrong way around.

Payman L: I mean look, for me, personally, I did VT, and I was horrified that that’s what a dental practise was.

Robbie Hughes: Exactly.

Payman L: When I had come out of dental school with nice … Our dental school had just been done up, kind of just been done up, and it was all nice. I get to VT and I just couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t believe that’s what dentistry is.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah. It’s disheartening, isn’t it?

Payman L: My thing was, three years later I left dentistry. I do this. But I get it. I do get it. So was that the feeling?

Robbie Hughes: Of course. It’s an unbelievable job to have. You can change and transforms people’s lives on a daily basis. And I do that every single day. And the rewards that come with that, you can’t put a price on that. But I always tried to put myself in the patient’s shoes. So if you’re spending all this money, if you’re overcoming all your anxieties, you’ve been thinking about you’ve never smiled for 30 years and you really want to change this part of your life, and you’re going to make this investments with time and money, and overcoming anxieties, and put your trust in someone, that experience deserves to be the best possible experience, or one of the best experiences of your life. And that end result needs to be what you want and what you’re paying for, because, trust me, you don’t want to do it twice.

Prav Solanki: So when did you reinvent Dental Excellence? You bought it, and then you turned it into a-

Robbie Hughes: When I was ready. Yeah. So I bought it, and we grew as quickly as we could, but again, it wasn’t a big rush. It just happened. People know me in the city, people start to come to see me, they send friends, family, moms, sisters, and the business just grew. Then I decided to go and get a dental therapist. And again, from a business point of view, and if I can give advice to any dentist out there, dental therapist is the best money maker you’ll ever invest your time in. Invest your time in them, and trust them, and train them to the best available their ability. They can’t do everything, but they can do an awful lot, and you’ve just got to put your trust in them. And that’s what I’ve done in Cameron. Now for me, Cameron is an exceptional dental therapist, to the point where I’m narrowing him down to literally just doing bonding, and just doing smile makeovers. Now you find me a dental therapist that does smile makeovers day in, day out.

Payman L: I mean it speaks to both him and to you, doesn’t it?

Robbie Hughes: Of course.

Payman L: Because I know Cameron. I think I kind of was asking all about you really because I know him from the Comtech course, but it speaks to the way you handle people, that you’ll put that much trust in a dental therapist. Most dentists struggle with that.

Robbie Hughes: Well you can see what they’re capable of delivering every day. So you nurture them, and some people have got it, and some people haven’t got it, so you don’t push them outside the limits, or the boundaries, but Cameron’s a very, very driven person, and he knows what he wants, and he knows the type of therapist he wants to be. And so it was an easy choice for me. He had an exceptional skill level before I employed him, and we just worked on that really.

Prav Solanki: What are you doing as a leader to retain him? Because obviously he’s an incredibly valuable person to you.

Robbie Hughes: Cameron’s not going anywhere. I know that. Got a good friendship.

Payman L: He’s the world champion of kickboxing.

Robbie Hughes: No, we-

Prav Solanki: But you understand where I’m coming from though?

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, of course. That’s exactly what I’ve got to be. I’ve got to be a leader. I’ve got to understand his desires, his goals. I’ve got to support them as well as I can, which I believe I do, and we’ve got a brilliant bond, a good friendship. I’m always there to listen if he feels he wants more from work, I suppose. I’m not going to tell you sort of how much he gets paid, or all these things. But look, he turns up into work in an unbelievable practise. He does the type of work that he wants to do every day. He’s not scaling teeth every day, which I believe therapists are wasted if that’s all you’re doing with a dental therapist.

Payman L: There’s so many of them doing that. That’s the thing. So many therapists not doing therapy.

Robbie Hughes: Exactly.

Prav Solanki: You’ve created that environment around him.

Robbie Hughes: What I would like to do … Again, I like to share my ideas and my thoughts. I call Cameron the digital therapist. He is a level above dental therapist, just below a dentist, because he is fully digitised. When I start a smile design process, he does everything I need for that patient, scans, photos, everything, mockup, he does everything for me. So my time is in and out that room. I see what I need to see, or I’ll look at my photos, and he’s my right hand man. And then what we built on that is once he got my eye for smile design, and obviously his own eye as well, we started working on composites and stuff. We’ve got that trust where we can look at a smile design, or we can look at a smile on a photo, and we can see what the patient wants to create. And his vision is the same as mine now, where we can talk about it, and he can just go and do it the same way I believe I can.

Robbie Hughes: We can talk to patients. We always ask patients to bring photos of smiles that they like. So they’ll bring pictures in. “I like this smile, like this smile, like this smile.” We’ll look at, “Why did you like that smile? Is it the size, the shape, and see if the shade of the teeth,” which we’ll come to. And then our job is to recreate that wish for them, really, using our skill and our vision, really.

Prav Solanki: How’d you deal with everyone wanting to see you? So talk to me about how much clinical you’re doing at the moment. And when you walk into a practise where you’re the main guy, and everyone wants to see the main guy.

Robbie Hughes: Difficult journey, to be honest. But again, we’ve done it in baby steps. So started on my own, I was doing everything, introduced Cameron later, after that I introduced Craig, who’s a phenomenal dentist. His attention to detail is second to none.

Payman L: And I guess this is the pushing Dental Excellence instead of pushing Dr Robbie Hughes story.

Robbie Hughes: Got to push Dental Excellence. That’s the brand. It’s not me, it’s them, it’s the team. So I had to slowly start to filter. So the first thing I stopped doing was Botox and fillers, because I had this huge demand for Botox, and I had just say, “I’m not doing it anymore.” I sent Cam on a course to do it. And then later now, which he’s just finished, I sent him on like a diploma. So no-one can do it better than him. He’s doing everything right up to the highest standards now, and it was just handing them over to Cam. That was a challenge. Lose some patients. But you got to stick to your guns. And then Craig took on a lot of my work, so I can’t remember the last time I’ve done a filling, to be honest with you.

Payman L: Craig.

Robbie Hughes: My associate dentist.

Payman L: What’s his surname?

Robbie Hughes: Craig Dewdney.

Payman L: Big up, Craig.

Robbie Hughes: So Craig started taking on a lot of my work, and then it’s just slowly but surely. I was doing a lot of ortho, which I don’t do anymore. Well I still do the clear aligners, because it’s simple. But Six Month Smiles, fixed orth, I don’t do any more. Craig does all that. And some of the other associates do that as well now. And they’ve just got to slowly just filter it off. I do the consultation, and that’s the most important thing.

Payman L: You do all the consuls?

Robbie Hughes: Most. And I am the person who gives the patients the confidence that me and my team are delivering their plan. 90% of the time it’s my plan, and I will talk through the plan, and the stages of that plan at the beginning, and I’ll talk about who they’re going to see at what stages, and what I will be overseeing. And I do oversee a lot of the work still, but the beauty of the technology that we have, I can oversee that from anywhere in the world. That’s my goal one day. I want to sit in the Maldives and treatment plan.

Robbie Hughes: So that’s the way we’ve developed it now, and we’re still working on it. You still get patients who only want to see me, and now we’ve got the same problems with Cam and Craig. We’ve got patients that only want to see Cam and Craig, so now we’ve got to be,” No, Robbie only does this. Cam and Craig only do this. The other associates do this,” and you’ve just got to filter them through. And you gain the trust. It’s hard going to see a new dentist for just an exam, or a clean, or wherever, but they get over it.

Payman L: If I’m a young associate and I want to work at Dental Excellence, what’s the best advice you’d give me?

Robbie Hughes: I need people with the same vision as me. That’s the most important thing. You’ve got to see outside where dentistry is at the minute. Now there’s a revolution in density at the minute, and I think everybody’s aware of that. Digital dentistry, composite veneers, things have revolutionised, and it’s the young dentists that are now rising to the top because they’re the forward thinkers, and they’re the ones who are embracing the Instagram, and all these things, essentially which is dominated by the patients. You’ve got to listen to your patients. But as a young dentist, I think it’s sort of know what type of dentist you want to be and don’t let anybody sort of deviate your path. If your vision is clear, and you know what courses you’ve got to be on, you know who you’ve got to learn from, you know where you’ve got to start.

Payman L: Literally, I want to work for you. Let’s say I’m 26, 25, and I want to work for you.

Robbie Hughes: Come and see me.

Payman L: What’s your best advice?

Robbie Hughes: Come and see me. Come spend the day with me. Find out a bit about me, and I’ll find out a bit about you, and I run an open door policy. You say I’m famous on Instagram, but come and see the real me. Come and see the workflows, and the concepts, and what we actually do.

Payman L: All right, I love it. So what now?

Robbie Hughes: You love it?

Payman L: Yeah, do I go on a course?

Robbie Hughes: Okay, show me your portfolio. Show me where you’re up to with your work. Show me your CV. What course have you been on? What’s your special interests? I want a dentist with special interests. Yeah, we can do general dentistry, but inevitably I believe that every dentist should have one or two special interests that they really want to become amazing at.

Payman L: So pick one and get really good.

Prav Solanki: Niche down.

Robbie Hughes: Niche. Yeah. It doesn’t matter what it is. Something you’re going to enjoy, and you want to go to get out of bed and do every day, and something you want to be the best you possibly going to be, and you’re not going to cut any corners. And for me, that’s smile makeovers and rehabs. And for Craig it’s ortho and smile makeovers. For Hector, one of our new young dentists, which we’ve got from Spain, he was qualified in Madrid, Spanish lad. His attention to perio is unbelievable. Now he’s travelling the world, doing the best perio courses. He’s involved in The Dawson Academy for his occlusion. So he’s got a lovely little niche. It’s perio, and occlusion and TMJ.

Payman L: You’ve got to love it, don’t you? That’s the thing, because it’s so hard. You’ve got to love it to get good at it. And so you’ve got to find the bit you love. So as a young dentist, I guess, the best thing is to try a few things first and see what it is that you get into.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, for sure. You’re not necessarily going to know straight away. So we all start with general stuff, don’t we? And then we decide what we’re good at, what we enjoy, what we want to improve on, and take it from there.

Payman L: Tell us about the story with the Liverpool football club. I mean, first of all, for me, knowing Liverpool, I love Liverpool by the way. Before the internet, I used to go up and down the country meeting dentists, and I used to always stay in Liverpool if I could.

Robbie Hughes: Why is that?

Payman L: I just loved it, man. I loved it. It’s the people. The people are really special in Liverpool. I’m sorry, Prav, mate, but I could’ve stayed in Manchester, or I could have stayed at Liverpool.

Prav Solanki: But you chose Manchester.

Payman L: No, I wished it was Liverpool. Always chose Liverpool. The people are just great there, man. But yeah, one thing about Liverpool, and Manchester, but Liverpool even more is that football is almost like a religion, and treating footballers in Liverpool is like treating, I don’t know, the Queen. It’s that important.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, very important.

Payman L: First of all, were you a Liverpool fan and all that?

Robbie Hughes: I am, yeah. I’ve been a Liverpool fan-

Payman L: As a kid and all that?

Robbie Hughes: As a kid.

Payman L: So how does that feel? I mean, I guess as a world champion fighter, this must feel different.

Robbie Hughes: A lot of people ask me that question, and I’m not the type of person to get star struck. Everybody is the same.

Payman L: You were the world champion yourself.

Robbie Hughes: Right. It’s just, obviously, to meet these people, it’s a blessing. I count my blessings. They’ve got enough cash to go to any dental clinic in the world, never mind the country, or Liverpool, and they choose to put their trust in me. So you’ve got to be grateful for those opportunities. Once we get past that, it’s down to work and business really, and again, the same way I approach any patients, it’s with honesty, and integrity, and we just get the job done. We listen, we communicate, we educate, and then we deliver and that what we-

Payman L: Does a footballer say, “I want to come in tomorrow,” and you move heaven and hell for them … move everything for them.

Robbie Hughes: It happens. I’m not going to lie. I see a lot of the more known footballs, we tend to see them out of hours, out of clinic if we can.

Payman L: Just from a privacy perspective?

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, from a privacy perspective, and the schedules are tight. I get sent the schedules all the time from the players because what they tend to do, if they want to make an appointment, just send me the schedule for the next two weeks, and it’s difficult trying to fit them in. So evenings actually works best for most of them, yeah. It’s about trust, isn’t it? As well. These guys, all they want is to be able to trust somebody. They’re just normal, young, very-

Payman L: I guess there’s so many people trying to take advantage of them, as well, isn’t there? That’s the thing.

Robbie Hughes: There’s a lot of people that try to take advantage of them.

Payman L: So trust is a massive factor for them.

Robbie Hughes: It’s a big factor. And that’s where I was fortunate to get my foot in the door because I knew a lot of the … I’ve known football players all my life. I’ve got friends who are football players. I got my foot in the door at Liverpool because I’ve got a friend who’s a football agent, Martin. I got close to Martin Škrtel. Lucas Leiva was a patient, and then the Brazilians come. He introduced the Brazilians and the families. Luis Suárez, Philippe Coutinho, obviously Roberto Firmino, and that’s where it started, with the trust. We don’t have an exclusive relationship with the club. They can go anywhere they like, ,but 90% of the time they choose to come to me. And if there’s a new player asking for a dentist, or has a dental issue, the club usually contact me. And that’s just about trust.

Payman L: So we had Sia on the show, and he’s the Chelsea dentist. And he was saying the contract, these are multimillion pound contracts with the players. And if a player has to miss a game because of toothache, then that’s going to cost everyone lots of money.

Robbie Hughes: Of course.

Payman L: So he was talking about when he was getting in with the club he was actually playing on that idea, sometimes, with other clubs, that if he says they’re dentally fit, they’re dentally fit, otherwise they’re not dentally fit. And does this happen? Does a player miss a game because of you? Does that stress you?

Robbie Hughes: Touch wood, that hasn’t happened to me. Yeah, it hasn’t happened to me, but I suppose it’s one way of looking at it, yeah. They take the medical sort of side of the profession very, very seriously. We’ve had players who have had chronic injuries, they’ve been to specialists in places like Germany or America, and they’ve told them to come back to the dentist, remove all their amalgams because that’s potentially related.

Payman L: Has that happened?

Robbie Hughes: So you have these things, and the plays do associate potential injuries associated with inflammation with chronic abscesses, caries, amalgam fillings, things like that, metal in the crowns. And sometimes we are asked to look at these things, and potentially give our opinion. But, for me, it’s more about these are young men, and usually from overseas, and they just want somebody that they can trust, like you say, that isn’t going to take advantage of them a lot of the time. And, like you say, authenticity, it runs right all through my blood and I’m never going to-

Payman L: Do you hang out with them as well? Do you party with them?

Robbie Hughes: I have done. I’m not going to mention any names, but yeah, I have done. You become friends with most of them the more time you spend with them, but I never bothered them. And that’s something which I think they respect as well. That they’re on the other side of the phone, and I don’t bother them for tickets. A lot of them actually force things like that on me because I don’t need to ask them for anything. I’m just there to do my job really. And if they need me, and I’m there for them.

Prav Solanki: You’ve received a bit of stick online for certain cases that you’ve done that have gone viral on social media. Would you like to just address in terms of some people say, “Oh, this patient’s teeth are too white,” or, “Which dentist has done this?” And deep down everyone knows who’s done it, right. But no-one’s talking about it.

Robbie Hughes: Yeah, of course.

Prav Solanki: Are you happy to bring that to the surface? And just tell us-

Robbie Hughes: I’m more than happy to bring it to the surface. It’s not something I’ve ever needed to discuss or respond to because, quite frankly, I don’t listen. My interest is the patient. If the patient wants super white teeth, we give them super white teeth. By all means, I educate and communicate with my patients to the very, very best of my ability, which I believe is second to none. But no-one on this planet is going to turn away a high profile celebrity if they’re asking for teeth which are too white than what they believe in. And if they can put their hand on heart and say they would, then they’re lying still, because you’re just not going to turn these people away now.

Payman L: But do you try and say, “Hey, no, that’s too white,” and they say-

Robbie Hughes: I have done, yeah.

Payman L: And they overrule you, and say-

Robbie Hughes: I have done, but these people know what they want. You know what I mean? They know what they want, and they love what they’ve got. If I was having to redo work, it’ll be a completely different conversation, but let’s just go back from a dental perspective. If we’re commenting on teeth because of the shade, and for me that’s a very, very minor issue. Minor issue. I’m interested in the

Robbie Hughes: the workflow, the predictability of the workflow. How I address issues or challenges. How I treat that patient and be as minimally invasive as I possibly can. If I’m ticking all the boxes, in my opinion, I’m doing the best I possibly can for that patient, the shade they choose at the end, it’s totally their choice. They’re paying for it because if we put the celebrities aside, coming from Liverpool, white teeth is a big thing. Okay? If I didn’t … If I said no to white teeth, I wouldn’t be where I am today. That’s the first thing. What I’ve learned is when you say no to somebody, which I do a lot at the moment because I get very young, like 18, 19 year old girls, wanting a full mouth of crowns, for some reason zirconia crowns, which are the least aesthetic in my opinion. This is because there’s a big rage from Turkey, you know, top and bottom crowns for five grand or wherever.

Robbie Hughes: Obviously I educate them, we don’t need to crown your teeth, we can bond your teeth. We can even veneer your teeth sometimes with no preparation at all. I still wouldn’t advise it because it’s irreversible. We have all these conversations. These people will still get up, leave, get on a flight and let someone prep, heavily prep 24 teeth for the sake of saving six grand or for the sake of not getting what they want. That’s where I do draw the line, but I don’t draw the line on a shade colour because that’s just ridiculous. If you want white teeth and I can deliver that to the best of my ability, noninvasive and all these words that people like to use, then I’ll do it. It’s the workflow and the predictability of my outcomes is what I’m interested in. Can I deliver what that patient wants successfully?

Payman L: From a restorative standpoint, from a predictability, from a DSD standpoint.

Robbie Hughes: Exactly, yes, and can we fully customise that smile for the individual? It’s for them. It’s not for me. It’s not for anybody else looking at them.

Payman L: But I think a lot of your critics wouldn’t know maybe that Liverpool is the world’s capital of white teeth. It really is.

Robbie Hughes: Literally, yes.

Payman L: From the day we started Enlighten to now our top users always come from Liverpool and they’re different people. It’s just one of those towns. Manchester, yes, but Liverpool, baring in mind it’s a lower population than Manchester, it’s just one of those towns. So that’s the way it’s going to go.

Robbie Hughes: That’s the way it is. If someone asked me for a supernatural tooth …

Payman L: You’ll deliver that.

Robbie Hughes: You know, texture, translucency, all these things that people like, that dentists like, you’re going to tell me I’m incapable of delivering them? Come and see me work. Like my lab, that which I oversee in my practise now, delivers an outsourcers patient work to other dentists from other cities that like … Or patients like this type of stuff, we’re delivering that day in, day out. I’m delivering that day in, day out. The reason why it’s not always on my Instagram is because my demographic of patients is 18 to 35 who want super white teeth. So what am I going to advertise on my Instagram? Super white teeth. I don’t care about anything else. Instagram is a marketing platform. You know, I don’t show my kids on there or what I’m doing every day and all these things. It’s purely a marketing platform. So like I said to you before, we know who our demographic is. It’s as narrow as it can possibly be.

Robbie Hughes: So that’s what we put out there. If you want to see something different, come and visit us, it’s fine. You know, you want to ask me any questions about white teeth, come and ask me. It’s absolutely fine. You know, you don’t have to get like aggressive or whatever you want to say about it. Like call me what you’re like, but I’m just giving what people want, you know.

Prav Solanki: Just talk to us a little bit about marketing. Prior to this podcast you said a little thing that shocked me, which is you probably run one of the biggest, or the most successful practises in the North and you haven’t spent a penny on marketing.

Robbie Hughes: Exactly.

Prav Solanki: How did that happen?

Robbie Hughes: The power of Instagram. The power of knowing influential people. Like you say, like I am fortunate, I’m very fortunate that I know influential people. I don’t have to beg influential people to help me out or offer, you know, freebies and all these things. I know a lot of influential people, I know how to sort of …

Payman L: I think that combined with the power of providing an amazing experience, right? Because …

Robbie Hughes: Of course.

Payman L: … It’s impossible to grow a business at the rate you’ve grown your business without word of mouth.

Robbie Hughes: Because you can’t force people to shout from the rooftops about what they’ve had done. You can’t force people to do that regardless of …

Payman L: But I think it’s the combination, those two together …

Robbie Hughes: The experience is everything. Yeah, the experience is everything. So you want to provide an experience, you want to create this sort of lifestyle brand where people want to boast about being in the building. That’s exactly what they do. Even the celebrities do it now. So the celebrities come, pay for the teeth, do you mind if we video? So Ken was a prime example. Ken paid for his teeth. Ken was offered free teeth, but he wanted to come to us and he let me video the whole experience and use it as much as I wanted to, because he knew what he wanted, he knew about experience, he knew about what we can deliver and we get that all the time. We haven’t done a single sponsored post. Yeah, so I haven’t paid for anything. Now when I’m ready to scale my business, we have the content, we have the contents there. Well obviously all those options we have. My websites are still getting built. It’s not even optimised.

Robbie Hughes: So if I can build a business of this scale on Instagram only, that’s what really excites me because I’m not going to be sort of put all my eggs in one basket. I’m just going through the process and being so busy and doing that. We do need to have all the channels and all the avenues firing at all cylinders. Then we’ll see how far we can really take this business and that’s the desire inside me now is I want to know how far can I take it.

Payman L: That’s really key Robbie here, because you know, you could say right place, right time, Instagram. You know your reputation in the town, is it … Let’s say Instagram the day after tomorrow isn’t the platform that … You know we can see what happened to Facebook and Reach and all that. Then we’re talking in a new town, what will it take to replicate? I’m not asking you to answer me, but that’s the big ask, isn’t it? Because in Liverpool you’re a mini celebrity before any of this started. Instagram, I guess you got on it at the right time and you did the right thing, but what’s going to happen next?

Robbie Hughes: I believe we already have a brand established well enough now to grow in any city. The awareness is there. I know that because I know the amount of inquiries I get through every day from different areas of the country. So again, my next stage is going to be a very, very logical decision based on where the most of my inquiries are coming from, from the right demographic and type of people and where my highest conversion rate is. So I know if I’m already converting very highly in that area that’s where I need a clinic. That’s not rocket science. If Instagram falls off tomorrow, I’ve got my brand and I’ve got a good enough business brain. You know, I’ve advertised on Myspace before so I can advertise on anything and that was free as well. Plus we’ve got all the old marketing methods. There’s nothing that I’m not aware of. I’m just saying I’m not at the point to use it or need it yet, but scalability is coming. That’s why I love digital dentistry because I don’t believe dentistry has been scalable before.

Payman L: Yes, in the same way.

Robbie Hughes: In the same way, but now it’s scalable and we can centralise a lot of things and sort of have different satellites very easily, I believe.

Payman L: Have you tried that? What’s the name of that DSD thing where you put your drill into the jig and it just …

Robbie Hughes: Face fit?

Payman L: Yes, have you tried that?

Robbie Hughes: Yes, we’ll have some exciting news about that coming soon in collaboration with-

Payman L: Just say what it is, for-

Robbie Hughes: What is Face Fit?

Payman L: Yes.

Robbie Hughes: So Face Fit, it starts with the same sort of smile design plan and the SD photo video protocols, 3D smile design. Once you have your 3D smile design then in the centre in Madrid the label have come up with the technology now where you can prefabricate the veneers and little jigs and a different type of like drill.

Payman L: Before prep.

Robbie Hughes: So you use the jigs to prep and the veneers are already made. So it’s a very accurate …

Payman L: Just stick your drill into this thing. It goes dit, dit.

Robbie Hughes: Then the veneers are made.

Prav Solanki: But you haven’t prepped yet.

Payman L: The dentist doesn’t need to do anything.

Robbie Hughes: Veneers are made based on your design. So the CAD Cam software will almost create what the ideal prep is. Then the jigs are created for the …

Prav Solanki: The prep jigs?

Robbie Hughes: Yes, and then the veneer goes on in the same day.

Prav Solanki: So anyone could prep … Any-

Robbie Hughes: That’s the idea. That’s what I’m trying to do with composite. Like you said, anyone can prep, sometimes you can prep or you can’t prep. Now with technology, I believe the way it’s going to end up going is anyone can do it. It’s just a matter of following protocol. That’s what my workflow with Avant Garde and the injection mould technique is it’s following protocol of a certain number of steps in the right process and not deviating from that and you will get the guaranteed results at the end. Even if you want texture and all these things in your composites, we put it in the design and it’s there the minute … You know all you have to do is polish. It’s there. That’s quite exciting.

Payman L: It’s very interesting because you know … For now composites are about artistic sort of …

Robbie Hughes: Yes, and it takes a lot of time and experience to be good at it.

Payman L: But you know, it’s one of those things, like we did it. There was a time where we said, all right, let’s do a whitening system better than what’s on the market, but you go through so many mistakes, don’t you, as you’re developing something?

Robbie Hughes: Of course.

Payman L: You go through so many mistakes and miss starts. So many times I think in our history as a company, we’ve had things that we started and didn’t do because it was such an error. Then there were other things, V ring, we had V ring before Optident had V ring and Sam said, “It’s a loser.” He said, “Who’s going to pay that much for matrix?” We were like, “Oh, well, you know, forget that.” It’s so interesting how this sort of thing develops. What was the hardest day in your dentistry career? Was there a time when, I don’t know, everything went wrong?

Robbie Hughes: Building my facility was hard.

Payman L: Isn’t it always? Builders are always hard.

Robbie Hughes: Exactly. Builders are hard.

Payman L: But to your standard?

Robbie Hughes: Backwards, forwards, bringing in a new project manager three weeks before the deadline, a lot went on, you know, I learnt an awful lot, but if I’m going to do it again and again at least I’ve learnt all the hard parts at the beginning. So that was difficult. On my launch night, which was a lot of invitations and there was a lot of people coming on that night. We were opening the doors at 6:00 and at 5:00 PM there was still builders running around everywhere trying to clean. It was difficult. So yeah, that was a hard day for me, but it was a very, very successful night. I couldn’t have asked it to go any better, but boy was I stressed that day.

Payman L: I’m guessing you overspent.

Robbie Hughes: Yes, you always do.

Payman L: Did you like the next day were you’re like, Jesus …

Robbie Hughes: You mean on the launch … We overspent on the launch or we overspent on the building?

Payman L: No, on the building.

Robbie Hughes: Yes, well it was … I never … You always overspend, when we’re talking about builders and interior designers, I never tell them my real budget because you know what’s going to happen. So yeah, you’re always going to over spend and we’re still spending now because we’re there and like the lab has been the best decision that I ever made. You know for me the lab was about more quality control, overseeing the process, learning a little bit about what the technician does and let the technician learn about me and what I expect and throwing the patient’s smack in the middle of that three-way communication and letting the patients sit in a lab and look at the design and have the technician come in and take shade and deliver one day teeth and all these things, but it’s even become much, much more than that. More enjoyable, like the opportunity to collaborate with other dentists.

Robbie Hughes: Like something I’d never thought I’d really want to do because it was all about the business and the patients, but we’re now sort of like doing work for other dentists. Again, only because they asked me on Instagram who made the veneer or we’ve started building the Instagram page for the lab. That’s gone really well and it allows me to oversee things and just see what other dentists are doing and advise them if they need advice or learn things from them and create supernatural teeth that we can’t create in Liverpool. It’s been amazing so far.

Payman L: Robbie, if you were to look back over your very, very short career and advise yourself, what would you do differently?

Robbie Hughes: What would they do differently? Move sooner. The facility where I am now, the idea was in my mind for a very, very long time. A mentor of mine, Dr BJ, he runs Evil Dental. He’s a good friend of mine. He told me to make that move a long time ago and he’s a visionary like me. What I was trying to do maybe four years ago was I was trying to buy the building next door to my dental practise, which was a semi detached house, two semi detached houses joined together. I said, BJ, I want a lab upstairs, I’m going to knock it through and have more surgeries. He told me, “What do you want to do that for?” He was the first person that said to me, he said, “Robbie, you are now delivering 21st century dentistry and you want to do it in a 19th century building. They don’t go together mate and you will outgrow that build if you do that, don’t make that mistake. You need to find a facility, the same as mine, similar to what he has in Heathrow.”

Robbie Hughes: Which I don’t know how big it is, but mine is 6,000 square foot. “And you need to start again. Your brand will always be a brand. Your name will always be name. Well grow some balls and move.” Then that’s when the planning began. I started coming up with the visions and the ideas and looking for locations.

Payman L: How much of it are using right now?

Robbie Hughes: All of it.

Payman L: Are you using the whole thing?

Robbie Hughes: We could move next door tomorrow and double in size, that’s how quick it’s grown. It’s scary.

Payman L: Just talk to me about your work life balance. You’ve got two little kids, you’re incredibly entrepreneurial, you’ve got a business that probably consumes a lot of your time. Just talk to me how sort of you balance that and whether you’ve ever struggled with being a father to your children. I know certainly less so now, but more so in the past there’d be times where my daughter would say to me, “Is daddy coming home tonight?” Or you know, is it the weekend now? Because they know I’m at home on the weekend.

Robbie Hughes: When we talk about balance, the balance is nowhere near what I would like it be, but like I said, if … I’m like a dog with a bone at the minute, if I want to be somewhere and the visions is what it is, I’ve got to do what I’ve got to do. I’ve got a very, very supporting family. So through the week, Monday to Friday … So what I do at the moment is I run consult days on a Monday and a Friday. I run clinical days on the Tuesday and Thursday and I run a administration team day on a Wednesday where we have meetings with my team and I talk about the way the organisation is with the team and the other things that I’m involved in because I don’t just run Dental Excellence. I’m trying to be a bit of an entrepreneur within dentistry if I can. Again, only based on the fact that I believe I can change certain things. I see …

Robbie Hughes: I think things should be done better or can be done better. Whether it’s the patients or the dentists, I’d like to bring something. I try to get up with my kids in the morning if I can. As I just said before, obviously two mornings a week I’m now going into the gym because that’s another sort of part of my mind, body and soul type thing, I need to get healthier from that point of view, but so I spend an hour with my kids in the morning before school.

Payman L: Is that every morning?

Robbie Hughes: Every morning, yes. If I’m not too tired, but yes, so most mornings I’ll spend with the kids between like 7:00 and 8:00. Then the weekend, it’s my whole weekend is about the kids.

Payman L: Is it closed over the weekend?

Robbie Hughes: We have a Saturday dentist. Yes, but I don’t work Saturdays.

Payman L: Sundays closed?

Robbie Hughes: Sundays closed, for now. Yes, the hard part with opening Sundays … We do a lot of late nights, that’s why through the week most of us work till like 8:00, 9:00 sometimes, so we do a lot of … I’ve got to thank my team for that, not just the clinicians, but the nursing staff, because they’re all willing to stay.

Payman L: By the time you get home the kids are asleep-ish.

Robbie Hughes: Yes, most of the time my daughter’s asleep, she goes to sleep about half seven. So most of the time I miss her. My son goes to sleep about half eight. If I can get home to see him for at least half an hour then I try. Then the weekend, I dedicate the weekends to them, but then obviously my wife needs time as well.

Payman L: Of course.

Robbie Hughes: So weekends sometimes-

Payman L: Does your wife share the vision, in terms of ambition? Like is she cool with the fact that you spend all this time … By the way, time isn’t just physical, it’s mental. I suffer with that.

Robbie Hughes: I’m trying to find …

Payman L: Sometimes I’m in the room but I’m not.

Prav Solanki: But you’re not in the room, right.

Robbie Hughes: Yes, and that’s one thing my wife said to me a lot in the past, especially this last year. Last year was a hard year for all of us, because we had so much to get through, a lot to do. It’s only now where we’re starting to find that little bit of normality. One thing that my wife always said to me was, “You’re here but you very vacant.” Because there’s so much on my mind. I’ve got through that phase. The balance I’d like to get better, but that only comes with as we build, as we grow the team really and as the patients get more trust in seeing other team members. My wife is very, very supporting. She sees the vision. She’s a great mom. She’s trying to come back to work and I’m trying to stop her from coming back to work.

Payman L: Was she working at …

Robbie Hughes: She was actually working at Dental Excellence doing micro-pigmentation. You know with the eyebrows and doing stuff like that. She had a little room at the old clinic and now she’s taken on one surgery two days a week, which I’m telling her I don’t want her to do, but I’m not going to argue with her. So yes, and because of that side and she’s been very supporting, she’s brought a lot of patients to the business. She’s supported the business massively.

Payman L: So she feels like she’s …

Robbie Hughes: So she’s part of it.

Payman L: She’s been part of-

Robbie Hughes: She’s part of the growth. Definitely, yes.

Payman L: Have you read a book, or have you heard of a book called Black Box Thinking?

Robbie Hughes: No.

Payman L: It’s about plane crashes. They look at the black box from the plane and then they don’t go, whose fault was the plane crash? They say, what do we learn from this so that it doesn’t happen again? Then the books also talks about medicine, right? When something goes wrong in medicine, it’s not like that. They look at, you know, someone died, let’s say, and then they look at what happened and then who was to blame for it? They point the finger at some doctor and then the rest of the community doesn’t end up learning from that mistake because it’s not ever thought of that way. So we’ve been asking some of the guests, clinically, what was the biggest clinical error you made?

Robbie Hughes: The biggest clinical error I’ve made, put a palatal root in the sinus.

Payman L: Nice.

Robbie Hughes: Being honest. I’ve done that once before, I will never do that again.

Payman L: What did you do?

Robbie Hughes: I was retained roots on a upper left seven. I was about three years qualified. At the point I was very, very confident extracting teeth very confident on doing minor surgery. I was sort of in my implant journey already. Occal roots came out fine. Very, very fine luxating on the palatal root. I was thinking, I’ll loosen it, I’ll get some forceps and it’ll come and it just disappeared. No, I wasn’t even putting that much pressure on it. It just disappeared. Which obviously learning curve, what did I learn from that? Don’t touch a palatal root on a seven ever again. Think twice before you jump in. Speaking to a lot of experienced dentists, very experienced dentist, top quality dentists, they actually do less now than they did when they were younger dentists because of these experiences. So they’re much more confident saying no to doing certain types of work or you know, because of these things which is …

Payman L: There’s also, the thing is you get older, you want to do what you want to do.

Robbie Hughes: Yes.

Payman L: So I stopped for six years, then I went back. Then when I went back I was like, well, I’m not going to even bother with anything I don’t want to do. So pretty much I was doing bridging and bonding. Then I stopped again but I hear you. That’s nice. Nice that you’re so open with it. Some people feel defensive about it.

Prav Solanki: We’ve had a few … You just came out with it like that. We’ve had a few people just sat in there going, hm, let me think of something.

Robbie Hughes: They’re what we call the fake book dentist, keyboard warriors. They sit behind the best case they’ve done all year and then that’s their standard of quality. That’s not reality. We all know that’s not reality. Especially if you’re working in the NHS and you’re seeing so many patients a day, then where do you draw your standards then? That’s why I decided a long time ago, I was never going to be involved in that process, because they’re two different worlds. The patient deserves to know what the reality is, what we can really do. It comes at a cost of course, but if you’re sick and you need the best medicine, you’re going to get the best medicine, aren’t you? You’re not going to cut corners. Teeth are exactly the same.

Prav Solanki: Robbie, it’s your last day on the planet, and you’re lying there, your kids are looking over you. You got three pieces of advice you can give them, what are they?

Robbie Hughes: I would say, don’t let anyone ever tell you that you can’t do something. If it makes sense in your mind and you believe in it, even if you fail at the end, do it. I would say even if it’s or your mom, because there was times where my parents told me not to do certain things within my business career so far, you know, I’ve took leaps and risks. The look on my mom’s face sometimes when I’ve said I’m going to do something. She’s like, do you really need to do it now? But that’s one definite thing I would say. Travel the world. I think I’ve gained a lot of knowledge, experience, reality, humility, everything really about morals, everything is from travelling and looking at how other people live and what struggles different people going through every day.

Payman L: What were some of your favourite places that you went on your world championship? You did the Far East a lot, right?

Robbie Hughes: To be honest, I didn’t go to the Far East a lot. It was very European and Western because it was Western kickboxing, it wasn’t Thai, but I travelled to a lot of Eastern block countries. You know Poland, Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania. So I won’t say any of them are my favourite countries, but again, you learn a lot about …

Payman L: People.

Robbie Hughes: People, yes. I see a lot of … I used to see people who were very, very talented within the sports from these countries. You’d have like 10 people on a team and they’re competing and then they’ve taken the gum shield out and the head guard and they’ve given them to the friend, so they can go and compete. You know, it’s just little things like that. It’s like you’re so much in love with this sport and it’s probably everything to you or you’re so limited in your resources, but you can still compete at this level.

Prav Solanki: You travelled the world. Number three?

Robbie Hughes: I would say, well there’s a couple of little quotes that are imprinted in my mind and my dad’s said to me since I was younger, one of them is if it was easy, everybody would do it. That’s so, so true, because sometimes … I’ve got friends who, oh, I’ve got this business idea. I’m going to open this shop, I’m going to do this. Good mate, good luck. Anyway, six months later, oh mate, I can’t do these hours. I’m going to sell it or … Like, because if it was easy, everyone would do it. Your visioning and what you want is amazing, but it’s going to take a long time to execute that plan. That takes a lot of hard work.

Robbie Hughes: The other thing my dad used to say to me, “Take risks while you’re young because you can always recuperate. When you’re in your forties, fifties and you’re thinking about the time in some of these things you don’t want to be taking your risks then. Take them while you’re young because if you fail, you’re big enough.” Like your time’s on your side. You can always bounce back. I suppose they’re the messages I’d like to get across.

Prav Solanki: I’ve really enjoyed myself.

Payman L: It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Prav Solanki: You’ve probably … I would say you’ve been the most open, honest and easiest person to talk to that we’ve interviewed.

Payman L: Yes, probably and I’d like to see you again in a couple of … I don’t know how long to say, maybe in two years time when the empire is a bit bigger, but yes, I feel like there’s so much more we could keep talking about, but really thanks so much for being on the show.

Robbie Hughes: Thanks for having me, pleasure

Prav Solanki: Thanks Rob, appreciate it.

Payman L: Thanks Robbie.

Robbie Hughes: Thank you.

Payman L: Cheers.

Outro Voice: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langrudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thank you for tuning in guys to the dental leaders podcast. I’ve just got a little request to make, if you’ve got a suggestion of somebody else who we should be interviewing or somebody who’s got a really strong story, powerful story to share with us, please send us a message and help us connect with that individual so we can bring their story to the surface.

Payman L: Thank you so much for taking the time guys. If you got some value out of it, think about sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the channel.

Transcript

Payman: Hi, guys. Welcome to the podcast. Today’s guest was Elaine Mo, real rising star in dentistry. What she said to us about the way that she talks to patients and the way that she learned what she does, talks to people from when she was a kid working in her parents restaurant and then her love of football. And I think, you know, she’s going to be one of these people who we’re going to see more and more of going forward. What do you takeaway from it, Prav?

Prav: I think for me, it resonates with me growing up working in the shop, corner shop.

Payman: Yeah yeah I remember that, yeah.

Prav: Her communication skills, her chameleon-esque approach to communication certainly developed from that customer facing role as my own did. I think the big takeaway from this is that she is going to be a successful business woman. Watch this space, guys.

Payman: Yeah, whatever she does.

Prav: She’s got all the ingredients necessary to be super super successful in business. Enjoy.

Payman: Enjoy.

Elaine: My motto, to my nurses as well, is when patients get angry or kick off at you just smile. No one can shout at a smiling face.

Elaine: That’s it. You can’t. Even if they’re having a go at you just smile and no one can say anything. No one can be mean to a smiling face.

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

Speaker 4: Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman: Elaine, thanks a lot for doing this.

Elaine: No problem.

Payman: The reason why you’re here is interesting, is it? I’ve always seen you at the mastication group thing.

Elaine: Yeah and the parties.

Payman: And the parties. And at the event and the courses.

Payman: I’ve always been impressed by you at such a young age knowing as much as you know about teeth and and I’m sure we’ll get into that, but you were bringing books for me for that dentist in Iraq. We had a little chat and I thought, “What an interesting person,” I thought, “Let’s have her on the show.”

Payman: I said to Prav, “I’ve got Elaine.”

Payman: He said, “Who’s Elaine?”

Prav: Yeah. I know who…

Elaine: This gal’s Chinese [inaudible]

Prav: I know the the name Elaine Mo because it pops up on Facebook and social media every now and then but other then that, I don’t know a lot about you. Obviously Payman said you’re a course-oholic.

Elaine: Kind of.

Prav: Let’s find out more about you.

Payman: Give us your back story. Where were you born?

Elaine: I was raised and born and bred in a little town northwest, outside of Liverpool. I call it the posh outskirts just to make me feel better. Not many people know it unless you’re a keen golfer but it’s a town called Birkdale and I lived right next to a golf course, grew up there. Born and bred there. I was there until university age, before I moved down to London, see the big wide world.

Payman: University was London, yeah?

Elaine: I went to Barts in 2007 and I was there until 2012. And then I tend to stay in London.

Payman: What kind of a school kid were you? A swatty school kid or not? Were you straight A’s student?

Elaine: I was.

Prav: Oh God.

Elaine: I was part of the little naughty one as well. The naughty straight A student.

Payman: Oh.

Elaine: To be fair, even in Liverpool. My brothers were the very stay at home ones and I was one who always wanted to go out.

Payman: I’m feeling a bit inferior now. Got this Oxford graduate on one side and this straight A student on the other.

Elaine: I’ve lost all that brain power now. I can’t even do basic maths anymore.

Payman: It’s an interesting question because my brother was a straight A student and he was great at school but not very good at the workplace. And I’m not saying that’s necessarily the case but–

Elaine: I think I got lucky in the sense that, I know I was a straight A, but I started working when I was 14, 15. So I used to help my parents out and by the time I was doing my GCSE’s and A Levels, I was actually on weekends minding the restaurant as well. So that my mom could take a random Saturday, Sunday off. So I did have quite a few years in working in restaurants and I think my mom wanted to push me out there. Because at the end of the day, speaking to people, she kind of realised that that was probably what’s more important. My brothers were too lazy, they couldn’t be bothered. She was thinking I’m the one whose thumb is easy to bend.

Elaine: That helped quite a lot actually.

Payman: I bet.

Prav: What do you think working in the restaurant taught you about dentistry and working with patients? What are the parallels there in terms of when you were fourteen you were there? I was brought up in a typical corner shop environment. I was serving customers from the ages ten to twelve. I was telling people they were too young to buy cigarettes and alcohol yet despite being eleven years old myself. And that taught me a lot about communicating with people of different backgrounds, ages, and everything and it’s become a good communicator.

Prav: Can you draw some parallels from what you learned growing up in the restaurant business industry, family business and how that’s helped you become a better dentist today?

Elaine: I think it’s definitely moulded, not particularity as a dentist but as a person in general. It’s all about service at a restaurant, it’s the same as a patient journey and at the end of the day, you are making customers feel special just as you make your patients feel special.

Elaine: For me, if I go in a restaurant, they can have the most amazing food. Just like a dentist can do the most amazing filling but at the end of the day, it’s a filling. The food is food and actually what moulds it is the experience itself. If you’ve had a bad experience coming in and your waitress isn’t addressing you and not there to serve you, then automatically you’re at a negative. It doesn’t matter how good the food is that you serve, it’s the customer service that’s lacking.

Prav: So true.

Elaine: And you know what? At the end of the day, for my patients it’s… there are a lot of dentists out there who, even though we’re at the same level, we can provide the same filling but what makes it different is, asking the patient how they are, their family, making them feel at home and actually being a person rather than your dentist and being someone that you can actually–

Payman: One big difference is, in a restaurant you can see the food, taste the food. Often the patient has no idea what’s going on in their own mouth.

Elaine: No.

Payman: So the communication service side of it is even more important than it is. Because you know my personal bug bearer is when you go to a restaurant, beautiful décor, excellent service, average food. That really really pisses me off. I’d rather it was good food and terrible service to tell you the truth. If I had to choose between those two but in dentistry, the patients got no idea what’s really going on in their mouth.

Elaine: They really don’t know. I think this is why photography… people say, “Take photos for you know, protect yourself against you getting sued.” Actually no, the most important thing is, for me, is patient education. Because for me, if you take pictures of different steps, show them exactly what you’re doing, even if it’s not the proudest filing you’ve done, you’re willing to show the patient which to them means, “Oh wow if she’s taking pictures then it must be good enough to show people which means that it must be at a certain level.”

Elaine: There’s nothing to hide and patients don’t know what they’re looking at but they pretend they do and you show them.

Prav: So what’s your philosophy like? If I was to come for a consultation with you… I think I sat in 100 plus consultations with dentist. Just observing, advising, and all the rest of it. Everyone’s different so if I was to come in and have a consultation with you, what would that experience be? If you could just talk me through start to finish.

Elaine: I’ve got a whole half day lecture on this if you want.

Payman: Have you?

Elaine: Yeah.

Prav: Wow.

Elaine: I worked on patient experience quite a bit and developed a protocol over 24 months of trying to kind of work what works in my hands and being systematic and doing the same thing over for different patients yet tailoring it to them. And went in my latest practise… One of my principals sat me down and was like, “Do you want to do a half day in my course? Because actually, we can teach the clinical side but we need people to actually take up that treatment.”

Elaine: So what I think nowadays people lack is the communication and the soft skill side because we can do courses on every single clinical part but what’s the point if you can’t get that procedure in your chair? And so for me, my focus is a lot on actually educating the patient so that they understand what we’re looking for. I can tell you you need a filling, I can tell you you need a cleaning but why? Is that important to you? And I think it’s important for the patient to realise why we’re doing it rather than what they need to be done. Because people want to know, “How will it affect me?” And it’s all about what will happen to me–

Payman: So when you sat in those consults…

Prav: Sure.

Payman: Go on, if you have to break them, some of the more–

Prav: Yeah so if you need to break them down, certainly I see a group of dentist who first of all, are not natural people people, right? So sometimes you walk in, you have a conversation with someone, “Hey how’s it going, how are you, all right…” And sometimes they’ve been taught by various individuals and you can see they come in and go, “So, how did you get here today? Have you got a day off work? What do you do for a living?” It’s almost like they’re going through a robotic system rather than them know how to just converse with people in general. If you were at a bar or you’re out and about, it’s the same situation.

Prav: I think what you touched upon then which was informing the patients, understanding them and getting the reason actually what’s in it for you rather than what’s in it for me as in the dentist. And a lot of people miss that. They talk too technical and so you end up in a situation where either, they’re talking technical and the patient hasn’t got a clue what’s going on or when the patient’s telling their story, they just miss key elements of the patient, maybe talking about this missing tooth and stuff and they’ll say, “Yeah but I haven’t been a dentist for fifteen years, I’m really nervous by the way.” And then the dentist just goes in, “Okay so for that missing tooth you’ve got a couple of options. You got bridge, you got implants.” So on and so forth.

Payman: The nuances.

Prav: You have just missed the most fundamental point of this consultation. I’d like to learn a little bit more about your system. Even if you could just give me like the top five things that you sort of systematically go through.

Elaine: Absolutely. The first thing is if you were a new patient is actually, for me, I think the importance is that the dentist greeting that patient outside the surgery.

Payman: Agreed.

Elaine: Because at the end of the day, you’re out of the clinical zone and also you’re actually interested in the patient and the patient feels special because, “Oh the dentist has come to get me not the nurse.”

Prav: Great advice. Brilliant.

Elaine: The other one is a three question rule. So on the way to the surgery, ask three questions which are nothing to do with teeth. “How was your day been so far? Did you find us okay? How did you come in contact with us, how did you know about us?” Any three questions. If they got their shopping, “Where have you been shopping?” Anywhere. Just to give ideas. Three nonclinical questions. That breaks the ice.

Prav: Of course. Great advice.

Elaine: When the patient comes in normally, make them feel comfortable, pop their jacket up and actually before you do anything is explain what you’re actually going to do. And the patient, “No I’m here for a checkup.”

Elaine: By the way, I hate the work checkup. Because for me it insinuates something that’s fast and is just a once over. It’s not thorough enough.

Prav: Sure. So what do you use?

Elaine: I use different words depending where I’m at, an examination, a comprehensive assessment, total oral health screen, these are words that I use. Because I feel like it’s kind of giving a full thorough check and you know what? Explain what you’re going to do. I explain what that involves and that it may involve x-rays and pictures. And then I tell them when I get to the end of it, we’ll get the pictures up in x-rays and I’ll go through it all together with you.

Elaine: That kind of shuts the patient up while you’re doing your thing so they don’t stop you. And actually when you do things systematically, in a way that you do it day in and day out, and I’ve done these exams hundreds and hundreds of times and I’m doing it in the same order, in a way that they can understand and show them with pictures, you find that your treatment uptake is massive.

Elaine: I think another tip is at the end of everything is, “Have you understood everything that I’ve said or have I confused you?” Patients naturally like to be involved.

Prav: You actually ask that question, “Or have I confused you?”

Elaine: Yeah all the time at the end.

Prav: Brilliant.

Payman: That’s a good call.

Elaine: At the end. Every time. And they’re like, “No no it’s been very thorough.”

Elaine: But you know what, when you get to do this, and on the part of the course that I teach, it doesn’t take long. My new patient exams are 40 to 45 minutes. My routine 20 to 30, dependent on how stable they are. And the thing is, it doesn’t take long but you’ve covered all the aspects that you need to and the way that my templates are set out is the order that I’ve done it so my nurses know my checkup, our examinations. They just know what I’m going to say.

Payman: What’s the key difference between your new patient… I’m not talking about from the clinical perspective, from the communication perspective.

Elaine: It’s learning who they are, what they’re interested in and knowing your patient. Routine patients, I quite often have a pop up note, which I love and nurses are like, “What the hell are you doing?” Like it says, “Is a Liverpool fan, has a dog called Freddy.” Things like this. Before they come in, I can ask them and they’ll automatically they can feel, “You remember me from last time. You know that I’m a golfer. How do you still remember that?” I cheat.

Prav: Makes them feel special right?

Elaine: It’s a cheat. But with the new patients you kind of have to find that to put something on a pop up note.

Payman: You have to accelerate that sort of, rapport isn’t it? With them.

Elaine: Absolutely. And the thing is a lot of them will be through word of mouth and there are social media aspects that I do do occasionally but I’m not one that pushes it. For me, I don’t have time to do a post every single hour and talk to patients. So a lot of it is through word of mouth.

Payman: Actual word of mouth.

Elaine: Yeah from patients.

Payman: Old school word of mouth.

Elaine: Old school. But there the best though. And when you’ve got that, it’s a massive positive because automatically you’re in the good book straightaway so you just have to maintain that.

Prav: Do you know I think one of the biggest problems that dentist struggle with is talking about money. Some people are really comfortable with it, some people are not. You’ve run a half day course. Can you just give us a few little gems in terms of how to become more comfortable just talking about money and being comfortable presenting your value to the patient?

Elaine: For me, I’ve established with the patient what is going on and what they need in order to have a healthy mouth or whatever they want to achieve. Once they realise, “Actually that is what I need,” or “That is what I want.” Then you go on to fees and cost.

Elaine: I think at the end of the day, I think dentist do devalue themselves and I think it’s not helped by the National Health Service because everything that’s come down. For me, when my family abroad… I don’t think people in this country realise how lucky they are. Anywhere abroad, the fees are much higher.

Prav: Off the scale.

Elaine: Yeah. But people pay. I think dentist just have to value themselves in the sense that, they are paying for courses. They need to recoup that and actually you’re not just providing a filling, you’re providing that how many hours and years of knowledge that you have as well to do that.

Elaine: For me, once the patient has established why they need something done or why they want something done, then you go into fee scale and explain what it involves.

Elaine: A lot of the patients that I see may not have come into private practise where I, well I’m fully private, but they may have been seen at National Health Service in the past so quite often you have to explain what it involves, whatever filling it involves, how long it will be. Naturally I do get quite a few people going, “Oh an hour for a filling?” But actually if you show them pictures and say, “There’s two types of fillings, I could just blob it in.” Or “I could make it really look natural and beautiful, it’s entirely up to you but for me, I want to give you the best care that I can provide which is the natural beautiful look and I’m not happy settling on anything less”

Elaine: For me, all I’m going to provide is option B. I’m not going to give you option A because I don’t believe in option A.

Prav: Got yeah.

Elaine: And then the patients actually will have trust in you because you’ve got confidence in yourself. I think you have to believe yourself and be able to sell it. There’s no point selling something that you don’t believe it.

Payman: Of course.

Prav: And they can see that right? They can see it a mile away. If you’re nervous when you’re talking about money, you’re hesitating or whatever, they can see that a mile away.

Elaine: I learned in that past that when you do cases, just a say number and do not give any expression. Just look at the patient in the face and see what their reaction is. And if you give them five, ten seconds, you’ll be surprised how many people just go, “Oh okay.” And they don’t react. I think dentists make it a big deal because they’re scared in themselves and body language is a huge thing.

Payman: You’ll obviously quite naturally talking about money and not worried about it. And I see what you’re saying, Prav, that you got to believe in the treatment you’re offering but there are some people who fully believe in what they’re offering and yet when it comes to the money conversation, seize up.

Prav: Totally.

Payman: Is it teachable or not? I know Ashley Ladds has a whole big thing about teaching people to talk about this but is it… Have you noticed that it’s teachable?

Prav: I think I’ve seen dentists who have been on a journey with me for like ten, eleven years, and they’ve gone from a point where they go in and they’re so robotic to becoming more and more comfortable. I truly believe that some people, you’ve either got or you’ve not. I really do. But I also believe it is teachable and coachable but you’re not going to convert somebody who is square, straight, clinical, into an overnight Elaine Mo, Kailif Solanki. Do you see what I mean? Someone who’s just got that natural flair and does it effortlessly without training, right? How much training have you had talking about money?

Payman: Years of it in the restaurant.

Elaine: Years of restaurant and that’s about it.

Elaine: The thing is, if there’s a will to do it, I think it can be taught. And the thing is, for me, I think personal development is a huge thing which is so understated in anything. And I think dentist are the worst because we’re already bad a business because all we know is how to do protocols and go step one, two, three, four, without thinking outside the box essentially. I think personal development is one of those things because we’re so worried about what others think and treating our patients and what patients think that actually we forget about ourselves.

Elaine: By developing yourself and your confidence, you don’t realise that that will exude with whatever you do.

Prav: Totally. And I think the point I was trying to make, it takes time. You can’t just overnight become someone who’s naturally like you, who’s got that gift right? It takes a long time to develop those skills and that personal development, that perseverance, going on those courses, practising , is what’s going to get you to that position where you are comfortable doing things that you’re uncomfortable with.

Prav: I do think that having the restaurant background… you know when I talked to you earlier about what are the parallels you’ve learned, I’m sure there’s tonnes there that is just by osmosis, creates the person you are today.

Elaine: It’s not even just the whole customer patient journey. It’s learning to work with your staff and actually treating them with respect because when you have staff who are working in a happy place, they will bend over backwards and do favours and you will do that for each other. Automatically everyone’s enjoying the vibe already. If there’s tension, people notice it from a mile away.

Elaine: So just as you would work with the staff waitresses to get over a busy night, just as your nurses and your receptionist’s is just as important. If you are working and you have the same mentality, it’s fantastic because patients will see that and they see the friendly nature and it’s always happy.

Payman: Prav always jokes about this office, he always says “You have this place like a youth hostel.” Doesn’t look like they do much work here. But there is an element of it… You know I don’t run my team like an army like you run your team, I’m sure. There is a big element of that but there is another element of it which is to speak to Elaine’s point. I want the people to be super happy when they pick up that phone when a customer of ours calls. And they got to be happy before the phone rings so that they are happy when the phone does ring.

Prav: I truly believe that whichever team members you’ve got, that they need to be spending 80% of their day in their zone of genius. My zone of genius is strategy, coming up with ideas and planning campaigns.

Payman: Where you feel most in the zone.

Prav: My unique ability, right? Where I feel like, “I am in my zone.” My zone of genius is not implement and executing, writing content. That’s not my zone of genius. I hate doing that. So the idea is that I want my stuff that I’m not great at, for it to be someone else’s inspirational motivational unique ability zone of genius. And I believe that that’s the key to them being happy in the workplace. Meeting their needs really. I think what you said there is something that most dentist don’t even think about. We all focus on keeping our patients happy but what about the support team?

Elaine: It’s one of the most important things and you know what? It just takes one little bit of tension in the team just to ruin everything.

Payman: Ruin the vibe.

Elaine: Absolutely. Because then it affects patients, staff for the whole rest of the day even this one little thing. So I think keeping moral up, keeping the team happy and actually being chilled out and friendly with them, it makes the whole practise nonclinical and automatically it becomes a friendly approachable practise. For me, I couldn’t be anywhere without the team that we currently have in all the different sites that I work at. I think I’ve got a fantastic team right now but that’s also credit to the principals and managers who actually maintain it. And you know what? Sometimes they do deserve to be spoiled. Sometimes I will bring in gifts for everyone and everything but that’s just all a matter of being–

Payman: I think it’s even more nuanced than that, isn’t it? I haven’t practised for a while now but when I did, the number of nurses that said to me, “You’re the first dentist ever to make me a coffee.” I couldn’t believe that. The number of people who said to me, “You’re the only one who says ‘Thank you’ at the end of the day.” Couldn’t believe it. I mean it was a few years ago, I think things must have got a bit better by now.

Elaine: But you know what, it’s the appreciation and it’s the actual… I know that a lot of people might secretly appreciate it but nurses and staff, they probably don’t know that you’re thinking that. They’re not mind readers. Sometimes they just need that little bit just to… For you to acknowledge them. And at the end of the day, it’s a bit like your patients, how good do you feel when the patients acknowledged your hard work. You probably get that one out of fifteen, twenty patients, who turn around and go, “Really, thank you for that.” Or take the time to write a review. How good does that make you feel?

Elaine: So why are we not pushing that onto our staff members as well.

Prav: Great advice.

Payman: What’s your working arrangement right now? Which practises are you in right now?

Elaine: So I’m in multiple private practise sites so I spend part of my time in the private practise in Wimbledon where we are a specialist practise and we’ve got a great team of principales there. It’s pretty much general dentistry.

Elaine: I work part time–

Payman: What’s the name of that practise?

Elaine: That’s Ridgeway Dental.

Payman: Ridgwaty Dental.

Elaine: Yep. I work in for Smile Hub who are a little mini independent in corporate. We basically base ourselves on sites in law firms and banks. My particularly site is in a Magic Circle law firm. I know people are like, “What the hell are you doing?”

Payman: Every single patient’s a lawyer.

Elaine: Pretty much yeah.

Prav: Wow.

Payman: Which by the way, I find… I was near lawyers too. They’re great patients.

Elaine: Absolutely fantastic. You know what? When you build up that rapport, they are fantastic patients because they’re really highly educated and they really understand everything you say.

Payman: And the last thing they’re going to do is sue you actually. As it happens, interestingly.

Elaine: It’s actually probably one of the least stressful job I have. But they–

Payman: And can someone walk in off the street into that building or that’s purely for the employees?

Elaine: No so it’s just employees only.

Payman: And what are the perks… So they’ve got dentists, what else do that have in their lovely offices?

Elaine: They have physios, they have the High Street doctors, they’ve got a gym, they’ve got their sleeping pods, they’ve got onsite canteens.

Payman: Sleeping pods?

Elaine: Yeah, they have. Apparently full.

Prav: Wow.

Payman: Have you used them?

Elaine: No because apparently they’re always fully booked up. I’m a bit like, “What is going on?”

Payman: I’m going to have to put sleeping pods in the new office.

Elaine: I know. New idea.

Payman: What do they look like? Have you seen them? Do they take a lot of space?

Elaine: No they’re just like little individual rooms.

Payman: Oh actual rooms. Actual rooms.

Elaine: Yeah actual mini ones.

Payman: But there are such things as pods.

Prav: I’ve seen some of them. Yeah like curved and yeah.

Payman: Yeah. I’m going to get pods, man.

Elaine: They have everything, there’ve got their own little newsagents-

Payman: How’s the food?

Elaine: Amazing.

Payman: Is it?

Elaine: Yeah.

Payman: Amazing like, you know your food.

Elaine: I do. There is like–

Payman: It’s free?

Elaine: It’s heavily subsidised so yep it’s very cheap. You go in and there must be a company of about 50 to 70 chefs or kitchen members.

Payman: 50 kitchen members?

Prav: What the?

Payman: How many employees are there in the building?

Elaine: About 3000.

Payman: Whoa.

Elaine: 3000 staff members. So inside they have different sections as well in this canteen so they’ve got their own oven pizza, they’ve got the Nando’s grill, they’ve got salad, everything you could imagine and on Thursday nights it turns into a bar. Music…

Payman: It’s making our office ping pong table seem a bit crap.

Payman: But I guess the point is they want the staff to be even more comfortable there than they are at home, to stay longer. Is that the point?

Elaine: For them, an hour is a lot of money to them so if you imagine a dental appointment even if it’s for a routine examination, that’s half a day gone if they’re probably going home, making that appointment, coming back. Whereas they could just go downstairs. It’s actually quite funny because we charge for any missed appointments because they really have no excuse, being upstairs.

Payman: Yeah.

Elaine: And usually it’s because a client has contacted them for a last minute meeting so we’ve had cases where quite a lot of them invoice their clients for missing their dental appointment and passed the FTA charges on.

Elaine: It makes me laugh.

Payman: Lawyers, man.

Elaine: I was like, “If only we could do that.”

Payman: Yeah

Prav: If only.

Payman: You should charge then the FTA fee at their own hourly rate.

Elaine: It’s funny because–

Payman: Do you get the big wigs as well, the partners and that sort? You must do, right?

Elaine: Yeah they are my favourites. They are, I think, they’re just so chilled out. They’re just less stressed but the partners are some of my favourite people to treat. There’s quite a lot of them and they are all so lovely. It’s really funny, having treated them for a few years now, I think we could learn a lot from them because, it’s funny, I’ve had great patients who I loved seeing and you know, you see them at canteen and they’ll come up and give you a hug, say “Hi.” Sometimes I’ll see them and do them a little favour, you know just say, “Yeah that’s fine, we’ll sort it out next time.” It’s amazing, there’s actually a few that turn around and go, “I don’t expect you to do that for free. You should be charging me.” Why don’t we do that as dentists? As dentists it’s like, “That is so weird.”

Elaine: But I think for lawyers, they understand because they’re charging per hour and you think you’re doing them an actual favour because you think, “If I charge them for this temporary they’re coming back for something, they might find it a bit iffy.” Yet these are the guys who turn around and go, “Why did you do that for free?”

Prav: They expect to pay, right?

Elaine: Exactly.

Prav: Wow.

Payman: And word of mouth in a building where everyone’s working, it must be on fire. Actually my wife works in a similar situation.

Elaine: It’s hit an miss. You just have to make sure you’re doing really well.

Payman: Yeah you’re right, bad word of mouth. Go on, give us a bad word of mouth story. Go on.

Elaine: Well usually the bad word of mouth stories are the patient’s that you really don’t want to treat anyway. Usually there are cases where I’ve learned to say no. I can’t meet these expectations, certain times where I’ve found patient’s just automatically you can not get on with everyone. No matter how friendly you are, you can not get on with everyone. Some people you just naturally feel that afinity to, some people you don’t. And actually if you say, “No I’m not going to do this.” You have to do what you believe in because the worst thing that you could do is be pushed by a patient to do something you don’t want to do.

Payman: But then because it’s an office, did that bad feeling spread beyond that?

Elaine: Not that I know of but this is more outside of the office. I never had it in the law firm. It’s other places where you kind of know they’ve seen other dentist quite a few times before, they’ve just kind of said a lot of negative words. It’s the last thing you want. And when you decline to treat, they get a bit touchy, don’t they?

Payman: Sure. On the opposite side of it, you were telling you did Invisalign on one person in the office and then every single person in the office–

Elaine: Yeah it was insane. So we as a thank you, sometimes give a ten pound voucher for referral. They don’t always know about it, we just send it out randomly and there was one girl who I did Invisalign on, next minute she sends a friend who sends another friend. And then after about five patients, I get the sixth one in. I’m like, “Oh are you guys all that same too because I see that you’re referrals are all within the same ring.” And they’re like, “Oh yeah we all sit at the same desk. There’s only one person who hasn’t got your Invisalign on at the moment at my desk.” And I’m like, “What are they doing? Get them in now.”

Elaine: But it’s quite funny because yeah, it’s hit or miss. A lot of the time, these patients are young, they’re usually at the firm for couple of years, few years and then they leave. Most of the time they’re actually quite stable and it’s more the cosmetic treatment that they want which is what’s common now.

Prav: What’s the biggest clinical mistake you’ve ever made and what did you learn from it?

Payman: Ooh.

Elaine: There’s been quite a few. I think everyone would be lying if we said that we didn’t make mistakes. You know what? I’ve got to put my hand up and say, “You know, a few years ago I may have drilled the wrong tooth.” But you know what? Explain to the patient and if you got that good rapport–

Payman: Was it a left and right issue?

Elaine: Yes it was because the x-ray was flipped wrong and I just didn’t check and that was my fault. But this comes back to how you and your patient get on. Put your hand up and, “I’m so sorry, this is what’s happened. I take full responsibility.” But the thing is, if patient’s like you and you treated them with respect in the past and honesty, it doesn’t go anywhere.

Payman: So what happened, they just let it go?

Elaine: They were like, “Oh yeah, don’t worry about it. Things happen.”

Payman: How much had you drilled before you realised?

Elaine: It was literally not much. I was like, “Where is it?”

Payman: Oh so let me tell you my little story then. Because same thing, back then the x-rays were marked left and right by the nurse. The patient had no fillings at all so it was an OPG and there it was, left and right. It was a seven. I started drilling and I couldn’t find any cavities. I actually stopped and said to the patient, “It’s interesting, it’s such a big hole in the x-ray but I’m not getting to it.” So I went a bit further. New patient it was as well, that was the problem. And then realised at that point. And she was upset. I put my hands up and said exactly what had happened, she was upset. I think she had a payout by my defence organisation I think it was 2000 pounds, back then. Today it would probably be a million.

Elaine: It’s interesting because I’ve got a colleague who again, I teach with, and he’s put his hand up and said, “You know what, I’ve been known to do endo on the wrong tooth.” But the thing that saves you is how you’ve treated that patient in the past, isn’t that right?

Prav: The relationship, yeah.

Elaine: If someone did the mistake for me, if I really liked them, I still wouldn’t sue them. I wouldn’t.

Payman: No me either.

Elaine: And the thing is, when that happens you’ve got this break down of this relationship of someone who you’ve trusted and you just don’t. You’d just rather not because, you just don’t sue people that you like. It just doesn’t work.

Prav: I think there’s lots of people out there who’ve done exactly the same thing and I think it’s very honest of you just to put your hand up and say, “Do you know what, I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t done that and this is what I’ve done.” Can you just cast me back to that moment when it happened.

Elaine: Panic.

Prav: How you felt and what your thought process was. I think there’s people out there listening who are either currently in that situation or are going to be in that situation at sometime and if you could just coach someone through.

Elaine: I mean, panic does set in.

Prav: Okay.

Elaine: This is when you look at your nurse and you think, “Jesus.” The nurse is like, “What’s wrong?” And then it’s like a little nudge on the side and you’re like, “Well.” But then at the end of the day, you have to repair, fill it back up and actually say to the patient, “I’ve drilled into this tooth and I can’t see what it is and I’ve just realised what the mistake is. I’m really sorry, didn’t check this fully beforehand.”

Elaine: You know what? Honesty is actually the best policy. If you try to hide that, you will dig yourselves in a well and you can not get out of that.

Payman: You’re in a much bigger hole.

Prav: Much bigger.

Elaine: Much bigger hole. That trust that that patient has is gone because you’ve lied to them. If you’re honest with them, that trust is maintained and shows your integrity. You will get the odd patients who will try and milk that but a lot of people out there are actually nice people. They’re not out there to get you.

Payman: I don’t want to get on a pedestal, you know my high horse or anything but at the end of the day, if we’re saying we’re professionals, that is the moment professionalism comes in.

Elaine: Absolutely. And it’s your duty to explain and tell them. I’ve known people in the past, fantastic physicians, people on top of their game and it’s like, “I’ve endoed the wrong tooth, I’ve taken out the wrong tooth.” How did you manage it? And if those who have done it in a similar way of honesty, a lot of the time it doesn’t go anywhere.

Payman: Yeah.

Elaine: The problem is now is people get panicky too easily and the main thing is just to stay calm and don’t get flustered because when you get flustered, you make the patient feel like it’s a bigger deal than it is. If you’re able to stay calm and go, “You know what, this does happen. I’m really sorry it happened to you. It’s not common, it’s just a mistake.” It’s very calm.

Payman: It’s interesting how quickly you came up… because me and Prav were talking about that Black Box Thinking, do you know about that?

Elaine: Yes.

Payman: Yeah so we were talking about that.

Elaine: The book?. Is it Matt Syed?

Prav: Yeah.

Elaine: That one, yeah.

Payman: So we were saying… For anyone who doesn’t know about it, is when a plane crashes they look at the black box. And then they don’t blame anyone, they try to learn from the crash and make everyone understand what the learning outcomes are. But in medicine it’s always a big cover up and no one’s taking the blame. Blame is actually the problem.

Payman: So we said, me and Prav said… I was telling him about my incident, my left and right incident and I was telling him every dentist has got one or two like that.

Elaine: They’ve be lying if they didn’t.

Payman: But what a great learning resource because for me, it was always check the left and right are correct, the nurses marked it correctly. If we could get all of those out to every… you know if everyone in this room said, “Here’s my black box story.” But when we thought about it, we said, “It’s never going to happen.” Without it being anonymous, no one will say it.

Payman: It’s so interesting that you just said it nice and easy.

Elaine: It’s interesting because I think the good… I actually got a thank you from that patient as well, bizarrely. After that happened I was a bit like, “Oh my God, what do I do?” So I addressed it at a practise meeting because we go though mishaps and how we can change it. So then we ended up saying, “Actually no, dentist’s will check all the x-rays. Nurses won’t upload them. Dentists will save them to make sure.

Payman: You actually did the black box.

Prav: That’s great.

Payman: I love it.

Elaine: I actually sent an email back to the patient and go, “So I’m really sorry that happened. To ensure that, I’ve actually taken to minimise it and this is how we done.” And so I sent a thank you email. I said, “Thank you for helping us to improve what we can and for helping to prevent this happening again.” And the patient got a thank you. So they felt that they had done something. So if in doubt, if anything bad happens, thank the patient afterwards for doing something that will prevent it happening to other people because they feel like they did something positive.

Elaine: Because I would feel great. It’s like that little charity thing as well. You feel good for doing something positive and the patient feels special and at the end of the day, that’s what it’s all about.

Prav: Elaine, I’ve been sat here speaking to you with Pay for about 35, 40 minuets and it’s so so clear to me that you have business, entrepreneurship, coursing through your blood. The way you deal with mistakes, the way you then go in and systemize it, the way you systemized your consultations, and the fact that you were born and brought up in a restaurant environment. Do you have any plans in the future of opening your own practise or has that ever crossed your mind?

Elaine: I don’t know. It always was at the very start.

Payman: Of course it has. Are you mad? Of course it has.

Elaine: It always was at the very start and as I’ve worked in dentistry, my mind always changes. I think being down south, yes there’s a lot of competition at the end of the day, down south. The problem that I have with ownership now is seeing these rules and regulations because I know that no matter how not involved you are, you’re always going to in involved. Those weekends will be gone. It’s the clinical issue. It’s not the running business issue. It’s the staffing issue.

Elaine: And this is what I’ve seen with my parents growing up. The biggest headache is actually managing the staff. Because once someone’s ill it’s like-

Prav: It’s always something, right?

Payman: Aren’t you saying she’s the kind of person who would thrive on that pressure?

Prav: Yeah and look, thousands of dentists I’ve met over the last eleven years, right? It’s clear to me that you’re unique, different, special, call it whatever you want, right? You have definitely got that.

Payman: Is it?

Prav: For sure.

Payman: I like that.

Elaine: Means a lot coming from you.

Prav: You’ve definitely got that… call it super power, call it whatever you want, right? It’s clear you’re a people person, you’re very easy to chat to, you’ll make any patient feel instantly comfortable like that. You just described a mistake, a clinical mistake that you made and you turned that into a protocol. No dentist your age does that. No dentist that I work with in a business does that currently but you think differently. You’ve been brought up in a similar environment to me. Okay you’re in a restaurant, me in a corner shop, taxes, this that and the other. But business was coursing through our blood.

Prav: I was destined to be involved in business. I look at you and I think you are a thriving, successful future business woman. Without question.

Elaine: Growing up where, yes I grew up where both my parents were in business and whether it’s through restaurants or my dad delved when I was young into property in China and had his own successful little empire there as well. It has always been part of my life. At the end of the day, my parents have always been their own boss. At a young age when I was thrown into that kind of atmosphere, it was weird because I was sixteen, seventeen and I was paying the wages on weekends because my mom had the day off. If any complaints came my way, I had to deal with it when I was sixteen.

Elaine: When you’re forced to do that at a young age, it really doesn’t embed it into you. I think now when I look back, one of the biggest impacts on my life is probably my schooling as well. Where I think back then it was like, “School is so annoying.” They expect me to stay behind doing this and that. Now when I look back, I’m so grateful I went to a fantastic school where they push you to go further.

Elaine: It’s interesting, I sat down with a few of my friends the other day and we said that we could actually see from mile away the people who came out from that school, the majority of them are pushed to go further. It’s not that you’re doing it really really well, that’s not the end of it. There’s always that next step. They’re very much into people skills.

Elaine: I remember when we used to be… when we were in A Levels, we’re meant to have a lot of free time. They forced us every week to do some form of community service. I did mine first Stroke Association, dealing with stroke patients and helping them recover every single week. We never actually got time off. My second year was actually going back to my own primary school and teaching kids. Things like this you take for granted and then you realise when you look back on it, actually it’s fantastic.

Payman: Pick up the school. Yeah. What was the name of the school?

Elaine: I went to Merchant Taylors. It was a private school in Liverpool. They have a branch in London as well. Very good school. And you know what? I think that is the difference in schooling. Is actually, it’s not the education side of it.

Payman: All the things around.

Elaine: It’s actually everything around and moulding you as a person. And the maturity that you get from it, is what pushes you further. I think everyone was in a similar… where parents were doing quite well in business and everyone was in a similar vibe. Growing up with the same kind of people around you–

Payman: So to Prav’s point, how come you not saying I want to open a chain of dental practises? By the way, you don’t always just because your parents are that way, a lot of people go the exact opposite of what their parents do. I do. I think you see the world through the lens of, if you can be an entrepreneur, why wouldn’t you?

Prav: Of course.

Payman: But lot’s of people don’t want–

Prav: Don’t want to do that, right? Yeah no I see that but I also see something in your personality and in you that makes you naturally gifted that way.

Elaine: For me I think in my mind, there’s is that leadership thing that I always want to pick up on. And I guess part of me is, I’m heavily involved at the moment with Dentinal Tubles as Payman knows. And since I’ve been involved with that, I think I’ve kind of taken over the Central London group. And that at the moment, gives me my fulfilment of the whole leadership and mentorship role.

Elaine: It’s nice because when I was in this rut of, “Where am I going to be working full time?” Getting out of NHS, I was around eight practises in one year. Every single time I joined, I was ready to hand in my notice because it was just nothing as promised. And it’s London. You pick up the first private role that’s going but then you realise it’s never probably as green as you thought it would be.

Elaine: I knew what I wanted to do and what type of dentistry I wanted to do and I wasn’t going to settle for anything less. So I kept on going and finding until I found jobs that I’m really really happy at. And they push me as well to do further. And that’s what I wanted. I think it’s about perseverance as well. It’s really easy just to give up.

Elaine: At this time I was lucky. I met some good mentors, some really good clinician around me. Took up every one of their knowledges and took my opportunities.

Payman: Who are you clinical mentors?

Elaine: So when I was… after VT I had quite a few mentors. I had Fazeela who’s helping me with implant surgery work. I had Richard Porter who helped me with restorative and endodontics. I met so many people, I really can’t–

Payman: Fazeela Osbourne

Elaine: Yeah I really can’t name everyone. And then I met Drew through Tubles and you know what? They gave that bit of confidence you just need when you just feel a bit deflated. And gave me that confidence back because I lost it in that one year as I said like, “What am I doing, I don’t know where I’m going now.” Like this is not what I expected.

Elaine: It’s lovely to be able to give it back because currently, I get messages from younger dentists and I don’t know why but I was quite happy approaching older dentist and people that I knew because I knew they wouldn’t judge me. But I think younger dentist really struggle with that right now.

Payman: Some do.

Elaine: They do struggle to speak to older dentists, they’re principals and everything and they would rather speak to someone younger. I do get the messages through from What’s Up, from random people. It’s really nice to be able to give back.

Payman: What are you, 28, 29 now?

Elaine: Just hit 30.

Prav: Little puppy.

Payman: It’s a funny age actually. I started in Enlighten at 28, I remember. It’s a funny age because your kind of not young anymore and you’re not old yet and it’s an interesting time to actually do something significant.

Payman: I’m finding myself kind of agreeing with you because what I knew about Elaine was… not that I sat there looking at your dentistry but she does know her stuff dentistry wise for someone her age definitely. That’s what I’ve gathered by looking at her in some of these courses. And now seeing the business side, he’s kind of right. You should start a little empire.

Elaine: I know, one day.

Elaine: Part of it has always been in the back of my mind but it’s kind of like thinking, “Oh when is the right time to do it.” At the moment–

Payman: That is the right time, isn’t it?

Elaine: No it’s never, I know.

Payman: It’s one of those things you got to do, make a mistake-

Elaine: I think I’ve made enough mistakes now.

Prav: It’s so easy to talk yourself out of it as well.

Elaine: It is.

Prav: You go through that whole situation of imposter syndrome, whats if this happens, what this, what that?

Payman: But wait a minute, there’s a new breed of super associates. We should talk about that a little bit. People who don’t want to be practitioners because they are so strong on social media, they have their own audience. They come with their own patients, negotiate super deals with the principals and never want to be a principal. I know a few people like that.

Elaine: I think sometimes if you’ve got the right associate job and you’ve got, everything’s green. It’s quite a relaxing place to go. You do your job and then go home.

Payman: I think with someone like you though, what you’ll find is you’re going to improve and improve and improve and you’ll get to point where you want to do something. I don’t know, clinically you want to do something because now you’ve improved the job hasn’t improved.

Elaine: In my head I still think, “You know what, I see a lot of these people on social media, a lot of them are my peers and a lot of them are all the same year as me. And for me it’s just like, “Oh my God, I feel like I’ve got so much more to give and so much more to improve on.” I haven’t reached my peak yet and I want to reach that peak before I’m–

Prav: The best is yet to come, right? And I can see that.

Elaine: I’m still hungry at this moment in time which is why I want to keep that momentum going and you know what? I’m just so happy that I’ve got very supportive practises that I’m at now who will give me a lot of freedom to do what I want and you know what? I’m getting referrals in and everything from dentists. A lot of other dentists, people that I studied with.

Payman: Really? For what?

Elaine: Treatment.

Payman: In what? What kind of treatment?

Elaine: Invisalign, and general exams because if they’re too far, they’re family members, whatever and you know what? I get people travelling from northwest to south London. I’ve got four at the moment from referrals from dentists from the past like six months. It’s really nice because I don’t feel like I have to push myself on social media like some of the others do because I feel like I could use that time doing so much more.

Prav: Old school networking right? You’re an old school people person.

Elaine: Yeah I know. You know what? Social media is fantastic but for me it’s not the same as sitting down, seeing someone and actually speaking to them.

Prav: No substitute.

Elaine: It’s not the same. Typing a few letters is not the same and that’s why I enjoy courses and getting out there. That’s why I enjoy Tubles, I’m meeting people face to face. It’s something that social media can not give you.

Payman: You’re not weak on social media though. You know what I mean?

Elaine: I still keep active every now and again

Payman: You’re not weak on it. I didn’t know you before I knew your persona on social media.

Elaine: But a lot of the social media that I do is not based–

Payman: It’s the food thing.

Elaine: Yeah there’s that as well.

Payman: That’s why I noticed you, the food thing.

Elaine: The thing is, a lot of these social media relationships that I have with colleagues and everything, it’s not just social media it stemmed from the fact that I actually met them in person. There are not many on my list that I haven’t actually met or spoken to before in person or the phone.

Prav: Real friends.

Elaine: So called. Or like on the phone. There’s either in person or on the phone and actually that’s what the difference is because if you have social media with lots of friends who you haven’t really met or know, there’s not that same relationship.

Payman: So we’ve got one other things we’re trying out. Is this notion of… tell me if you understand what I’m saying here, you can go to a course, right? And you can learn from a great teacher and why is it that that guy’s a great teacher because he’s got I don’t know, she’s got fifty amazing things, hacks, that they know, that they’re trying to teach. I see this all the time with teachers. I’ve got this other idea. Similar to the black box thing, is that every dentist has one or two personal hacks that is personal to them, that they discovered through dentistry, just doing the work. I think you’ve been qualified what six years you said?

Elaine: 2012. I left my VT 2012, 13.

Payman: Yeah so someone like you is so interesting, I’m sure… Can you think of something clinically, I’m talking about a clinical hack that Elaine herself has developed?

Elaine: God, you’re putting me on the spot now.

Payman: So for me, let me tell you–

Elaine: The thing is for me… it’s weird because for me these hacks, it’s not really a hack anymore. It just comes second nature so I don’t even know what is a hack or not anymore.

Payman: How interesting.

Elaine: For me, although I can get my clinical at work up, I like my focus to be on actually the patient and the actual care-

Payman: So the communication hack is really benefitting you, yeah?

Elaine: I think that that is more important than anything because I think the problem that we get now is there are so many clinical courses out there which people just dive on but how popular are these, you know communication and personal development courses. You don’t see people jumping on to them, like they do a little composite course.

Elaine: But the thing is, that’s where I think we need to change the mentality because at the end of the day if you screw up, that’s going to save you. If you can’t find patients, that’s what’s going to get people in your chair and everything stems from that.

Prav: I don’t think we’ve had much of a chance to find out who the real Elaine Mo is outside of dentistry so could–

Elaine: There’s not that much time left.

Payman: She’s all about the teeth.

Prav: You’re all about the teeth.

Payman: No because the Tubles takes time too.

Elaine: It does, it takes time but I put time aside because I work around… it works out to be four days a week so I still have a day for that.

Prav: What do you do for fun? Outside of work, dentistry, all the rest of it.

Elaine: I’m a big football fan. I think a lot of people know. I’m a massive Liverpool fan.

Prav: Right okay. So you go to the games and stuff?

Elaine: I do. It’s awesome. It’s from my dad. I think I’ve mentioned it earlier, I grew up in a town where all the footballs were around me and a lot of the older ones were family friends so I went to school with some of their kids and my parents were friends with them so I had no choice but to be a Red. But yeah, they take up half my time and winter. I love my football. I have a niece now, who keeps me busy as well so I spend a lot of weekends over there, babysitting. And I always try and find times for family, friends and going visiting, going you know, my own social life as well. Seeing these guys are parties, seeing them at the bar. I mean half the people I meet in dentistry are at the bar anyway.

Payman: We were worried about football because Anoop’s coming in later on.

Prav: We know nothing about football

Payman: We’re the opposite of the two heads are better than one podcast. Don’t know anything about football at all.

Prav: Seriously.

Elaine: So basically just tell him Liverpool are the best.

Prav: Literally, I jump in an Uber on my way from Euston Station to here. “Where you from mate?”

Prav: “Manchester.”

Prav: “Oh right, you a Red or a Blue?”

Prav: “Last time I looked in the mirror I was brown.”

Prav: I honestly know nothing about football.

Payman: It’s a bigger disgrace for you, coming from Manchester.

Prav: Even bigger disgrace.

Elaine: I know. From the north it’s a big thing.

Prav: Yeah. Huge.

Payman: In Liverpool I’ve have people ask me “Who do you support?” And I said,” Don’t like football.”

Elaine: And they’re like, “Do you live?”

Payman: Yeah I remember the guy looking at me in a way. He was thinking to himself, “Why’s this guys lying?” He couldn’t believe I wasn’t into football.

Elaine: Up north, especially Liverpool, Manchester it’s a big big thing.

Prav: Yeah I know.

Elaine: I don’t know what’s going on Prav.

Prav: I’m not considered a man if I’m not football smart.

Prav: Usually toward the end of these interviews we ask people a question about what legacy they’d like to leave but I think you’re a little bit too young for that.

Payman: Why? No.

Elaine: I like to think I’m a bit too young for that.

Prav: Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of… I know a few dentists who just recently are qualified and they’d love to be where you are at that stage in their career and if you could give them you’re top three tips to your younger you. What advice would you give them?

Elaine: Take very opportunity and meet as many people as you can. Although some people you might feel, “Oh no, they’re young or whatever.” No matter who you meet, you’ll learn something from them. And you’ll pick up something whether it’s clinical or from life, you’ll know something about them. Don’t give up. I know that there’s a lot of negativity and job issues and things that people have nowadays which we see but you know what? If it’s not right for you, leave. There’s always somewhere better. There’s plenty of places out there and perseverance is key. Three is believe in yourself and for me, personal development and developing yourself as a person is what will change everything.

Prav: I love that. Personal development is so huge to me that the last two years I’ve invested so much time and money into it. And I so believe in that.

Elaine: It’s so interesting because I don’t think people realise the importance of it and once you’ve got the knack of it, you realise actually it changes the clinical side. Even though you haven’t change anything clinically, it changes everything that you do and it will bring you so much more content and confidence in your life.

Payman: What’s your top tip in personal development, read books or booking a course?

Elaine: I’ve done books, courses, everything. And you know what? One you realise where you can improve on and once you realise… because everyone says dentistry is so isolating, it’s so negative and yeah it is but at the end of the day, you got to realise that dentistry is a great profession out there. There are a lot of people who are graduates now who can’t find a job. Where at least we’re petty much guaranteed a job no matter what. There are people struggling out there and dentistry is a fantastic place to be if you’re doing something that you’re actually enjoying. There’s no point doing dentistry if you’re not enjoying it and so what’s the point of carrying on. There’s got to be something that changes. If you don’t change it, you’re just going to burn out. You have to find out what you need to do, why you’re doing it in the first place, and then figure out from there.

Elaine: Personal development, I think, helps you to realise as a person where you can up your strength. What your strengths are, where your weaknesses are, and actually build on that because as a person, it increases your confidence and it makes you happier. Then you have an idea of what you want to do and more of an aim because some people, yeah working three days is the perfect limit for them because they’ve got other things. But if that’s what makes them happy then fine. And you can live of three days if you’re doing good dentistry.

Prav: Of course you can.

Payman: Have you ever worked in the UDA system as well?

Elaine: Yeah I did for a bit.

Payman: Was it soul destroying for someone like you?

Elaine: To be honest with you, I wasn’t in bad mixed practises but it was from really early on I knew it was something I wasn’t going to be happy with. I knew that it was never going to be something that I wanted to do which is why I invested in courses to get myself out of that and the earlier you can do that, the better. The earlier you upscale, the more time you have to build up on that and build up your strengths from the basics.

Payman: And so the first time you were in NHS situation and you went for a private job.

Elaine: Yeah. I didn’t stay in the NHS long to be fair with you. After VT I was only in for about a year and then I did a part time private. And I remember it was so difficult getting on because who’s going to hire someone straight out of VT?

Payman: Yeah how did you convince the guy?

Elaine: I commute to Peterborough part time. I did the commute two days a week. And I sacrificed. And it took a big pay cut because I was only seeing so many patients a day but it opened a new door to say I had the experience.

Prav: How long was the commute?

Payman: A hour and a bit isn’t it?

Elaine: Yeah. About an hour and a half at least because by the time you get on the train and everything.

Prav: And you commuted each day or stayed over?

Elaine: No each day.

Prav: Wow.

Elaine: I remember it was quite hefty train journey fee as well. But you know what? Although it was never the practise for me to stay at, I can’t really fault it because it gave me an opening.

Payman: Yeah I remember speaking to Mike Apa, he got into Larry Rosenthal’s practise by saying he’ll work for free for him. And now look at him.

Elaine: But you know what? There are a lot of different negative things that people say about practises but for me, although the negative practises I’ve been at, they’ve never lasted but I’ve always taken something away from it and at the end of the day, if you can spin anything into a positive, why not do that because you’re just going to make yourself happier. For me, my motto to my nurses as well is when patients get angry or kick off at you, just smile. No one can shout at a smiling face. That’s it. You can’t. Even if their having a go at you, just smile and no one can say anything. No one can be mean to a smiling face.

Prav: Yeah.

Payman: All right well, it’s been really really lovely conversation. Thanks so much for coming.

Elaine: Thank you. Absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

Prav: Thank you. There’s so much we haven’t covered so we’re definitely inviting you back. There’s going to be a part two for sure.

Payman: Maybe next time we invite her they’ll be a chain of dental practises.

Prav: Just one or two.

Elaine: Wouldn’t go that far.

Payman: Venture capital and all that…all right lovely. Thanks a lot for coming in.

Prav: Thank you.

Elaine: Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Transcript

Zainab: Some professions don’t allow that, and then women are torn. They want to be at work but they want to be at home, and they have to then just choose. Not everyone can get the best of both worlds, but I think we’re lucky, we can. It’s not been easy. It’s definitely a struggle. The juggle is real.

Intro Voice: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Hey guys. Today we’ve got the pleasure of having Doctor Zainab with us today. You’ve probably come across her on Instagram by witnessing her amazing composite work. Today we’re just going to go a little bit deeper and understand who the real person is behind her Instagram profile. Zainab, I wonder if I can just ask a few questions about where it all started, where were you born, where did you grow up. What was it like growing up with, is it three, younger sisters?

Zainab: Three younger sisters. Yeah. I was born in Glasgow in Scotland to a mum and dad who were both actually in health care. A year after that my sister was born. We lived in Scotland for about seven years in a town called Paisley not far from Glasgow and then moved to London for a few years. Then when I was about 11 my mum who’s a dentist was offered a job in the Middle East in Oman to run a dental department in a new private hospital.

Zainab: She was really, really up for the venture, and, for her, her dream had always been to live in front of the sea, work in front of the sea, kind of that environment. She’d known the lifestyle there to be quite chilled out. We went.

Prav Solanki: How old were you then?

Zainab: 11.

Prav Solanki: 11. Okay.

Zainab: The plan was that my father would come too, but he was in a consultant post here as a surgeon. Really stable, really quite happy in his job, and the job offers he was getting in Oman were a bit too far from home that would match the level he was at here. If he were to move with us, he would have had to not live at home anyway which defied the point.

Zainab: Three years in we decided to come back. We came back. It was also the time, it was time for GCSEs and it made sense that we just started that serious level of education here.

Prav Solanki: If I understand rightly, you moved away for three years.

Zainab: We moved away.

Prav Solanki: Without dad.

Zainab: Without dad. He came and went a lot, and we came and went a lot. It was really fun three years actually, the best three years of my life. Just living in the Middle East was amazing. The lifestyle is so relaxed. We start school at 7:30. We finish at 2:30, 3:00 max. Go to the beach. Everything’s just so relaxed. Mum’s literally where she wants to be in front of the sea and we just had such a good time. People are lovely. The lifestyle, everything’s open till late. You just feel like you’re on holiday but living there all the …

Zainab: Level of study, the level of education or the quality of education was really, really high. Actually, quite intense. If you failed your final year exams you’d have to retake the year. There was that pressure there. We went to an international school. Things were at a high level. We felt that pressure and from that sense, but it was compensated by the nice lifestyle.

Zainab: Then we came back. We came back after three years and just settled back. Then I did my GCSEs here in London, A levels and went to university, and have been here since. I was 14 when I came back.

Prav Solanki: What was that transition like when you came back in terms of the cultural environment being back with dad, I assume, and the education, the difference in education as well? If you can just summarise that.

Zainab: Coming back and being dad again was really nice. For him, especially, I think he really just wanted us back to just everyone settle back to the lifestyle that we had, the life we had here all together. Having said that, being a consultant surgeon he did locum a lot, and he had nights. For us, we were always used to him being back and forth and the nature of his work as a doctor was like that. Still, all being in the same home is always wonderful, isn’t it?

Zainab: Then in terms of settling back, to be very honest with you it was a bit gloomy. Because coming from that environment where everything’s just sunny and nice and relaxed, and here life is a bit more of a rat race. It took some time to adapt. I think we were all a bit upset about that aspect and missed it. At that age you kind of just adapt and get on with it. We were back at school and getting serious now about wanting to plan our futures and education and all of that.

Zainab: The education itself coming back actually it was quite … I came back when I was joining year 10. A lot of the subjects were kind of, I’d already studied them in Oman. I felt a bit like one step ahead. Then comes in all the examining boards and the nature of trying to revise for exams, and then the pressure was just on. It’s all about getting the grades and planning what I wanted to do. I was very clear I wanted to do dentistry.

Payman L: When did you decide that?

Zainab: I literally grew up with my mum being a dentist. It was sometimes my afterschool club. We’d get dropped off there or she’d have to come back and see a patient. I spent a lot of time growing up in the dental practise. Revising, studying for exams, things like that, in the dental practise. That was like second home. For me, seeing that, it was always very interesting and actually, funny enough, my mum is really good at composite bonding. I vividly remember her building up fractured teeth and just thinking, “Wow.”

Zainab: She would do it really probably in different techniques to now, but really, really effectively, quickly, and it just looked like magic. I was like, “Wow. I want to be able to do that.” Then what was really nice and what really inspired me, she was a big inspiration, was that she just was always so calm about everything. She made it look like it wasn’t particularly stressful. She was enjoying it and she was passionate about it and that always came across. That definitely, I feel, was an influence. I’d say really young. I can’t put my finger on it but well before GCSEs.

Prav Solanki: Exam time, school time, were you a swotty kid? Were you a grafter or were you just naturally gifted and smart and clever?

Zainab: I’m not sure. I definitely did work hard. My study style is to concentrate really, really heavily on something, rather than scan everything and try and absorb a lot of things at the same time. I dive into something. When I’m studying I take long, I take hours and hours to cover a subject, because I won’t go onto the next page till I’ve mastered that page. That was my study style. I’d say I’m a concentrator.

Prav Solanki: From my own cultural background, it was always destined that we would go into health care because it’s what our father wanted for us and wanted more from us than he got out of life, which was shopkeeper and taxi driver, and he worked so hard to put us through school. Was there ever any of that pressure on you to go into health care or at least to follow a certain stereotypical career path?

Zainab: I don’t remember it being verbalised. I think it came from me. I think maybe my mum was secretly relieved because she was so into it. I don’t remember it ever being something that was talked about as something that we should pursue. I do remember when I had decided on dentistry, my dad was a bit like, “But why not medicine?” There was this competition between the two.

Payman L: What did the other three end up doing?

Zainab: The one sister who’s directly younger than me, Ustra, did do dentistry as well. The third one did business and politics, and then the fourth one did dentistry and she recently qualified. Three of us are dentists. It wasn’t something that they pushed on us at all. No.

Prav Solanki: Moving on from obviously wanting to be a dentist and now being where you are today, was it always cosmetics that you were interested in? You mentioned that you saw, you all witnessed your mother doing amazing composites. Is that what initially got you started in cosmetics?

Zainab: That drew me towards it. It drew me towards the idea that this is a creative thing, and then what also drew me towards it was seeing my mum talk to patients a lot and build relationships. She really enjoyed those relationships. I’d see her chatting with them. That was a nice aspect of the work that I saw. I was really interested in biology and oral surgery.

Zainab: My mum actually went into the oral surgery pathway. She did a master’s in implants and went in that direction. I saw a lot of that. For me, to be honest, all of that was appealing for me. It wasn’t just the art. I didn’t know that I was going to go down the cosmetic points at that stage. I just was interested in everything.

Zainab: Then when I started university, I just wanted to be good at all of the disciplines. I took an interest in everything. Really only until about two years after qualifying did it crystallise that the one thing that really is fulfilling for me is really sculpting teeth and getting creative. That laboratory side. Not dentures, but that laboratory side where they’re looking at shapes of teeth and smile design. I’d look at people and see things that I wanted to change in their smiles.

Zainab: If I had a fractured tooth in a small child, rather than just doing a usual quick, I don’t want to say quick NHS, but you know what I mean. Rather than just a quick build up, I would sit there and really try and perfect it. That’s how I started practising . Nurses would comment at university as well. My final year case was a tooth wear case that needed full mouth rehabilitation. That’s quite advanced for a student.

Payman L: Where did you study?

Zainab: Kings. That was quite advanced for a student. I was thrown in the deep end with making a denture for this patient, root canals, perio surgery on him, and composites, upper and lower. That’s a lot for a final year case. I remember chasing Professor Stephen Dunne, literally chasing him around just trying to understand everything behind how to get this right.

Zainab: And reading. There were different views on this specific case. I had to then just make sense of it all myself. Out of all those parts, all those disciplines that were involved in his case, the bit that I really delved into was sculpting those composites and calling him back in to repolish and change the shape a bit. Nurses would come in and say, “This is going to be your thing. This is what you’re going to do.” I was like, “Yeah. I really enjoy this.”

Zainab: Then when I was in practise doing NHS dentistry, if, like I said, I had a fractured tooth, I’d just spend ages on it. Then the mother would say, “Can we see it? Look, are you proud of your art? Look, that’s lovely. Dah-dah dah.” There was always this thing, reinforcement from people who would see what I was doing, and say, “You look really passionate about that. This is probably something you should do more of.”

Zainab: Then it just grew from there and just really enjoyed that. I knew that I wanted to expand on it, and then I did more cosmetic courses.

Payman L: Did you always work at your mum’s practise, or did you work at other people’s practise?

Zainab: My first practise was the VT Practise in High Wycombe. I then stayed on for another nine months as an associate. It was about two hours from home at the time. I was driving back and forth and it was becoming quite tedious after nine months, eight, nine months. I then just thought, “It’s time to settle closer to home.” Then it was my mum’s practise. She had an NHS practise before this Harrow on the Hill one. I joined her NHS practise.

Zainab: She then started getting quite comforted by the fact that her daughters were now qualified dentists, quite confident, know what they’re doing. She started taking a little step back, slowly, slowly. It was actually at that point that she started planning her retirement. You know we came back from Oman, so she’s now in Oman. She retired and gone back. That was her dream. She’s built a home there.

Zainab: During that time that she was building that home, she was more and more busy with that, less and less involved in the practise. I was becoming more and more responsible for things. I began, I’d say, running or holding the fort of an NHS practise first about probably two or three years after qualifying, on the surface. I’d hold the fort in the sense that I was looking after things on the ground. She was still running the business, so to speak. I pursued a yearlong cosmetic dentistry course and then knew that I wanted to now advance my skills.

Prav Solanki: Who was that with?

Zainab: It was Professor Paul Tipton in Manchester. I’d go in once a month, travel in, and it just gave me a broad overview of cosmetic dentistry, crystallised that that was a path I was feeling really, really passionate about and wanted to excel in. She didn’t plan this, because she was retiring, but she just had a light-bulb moment where she was actually sitting in Café Café just opposite this dental, well, it wasn’t a dental practise at the time. It was just a remote building in Harrow on the Hill.

Zainab: She was kind of just getting a bit tired of running this NHS practise. My mum is one to always have projects. She just went and asked an estate agent, and she inquired about this place. She had a look at it, et cetera. Bottom line is, cut a long story short, she bought the place and set it up from scratch. Then she didn’t let us work there for a good few years. It was probably about three, four years before we were allowed to see patients there, because she wanted it to be really topnotch private dentistry, and we had to prove ourselves to her. It was very slowly, slowly. Then in 2013 I started working there properly.

Zainab: Ever since I’d say two years post-grad it’s been in my mum’s practises. She’s now sold the NHS one to somebody else. I just couldn’t see myself there for the long-term. The Harrow one she’s now sold to me.

Prav Solanki: What’s it like? I think your entry into business is completely different to everyone that we’ve spoke to traditionally, who have gone in, been very naive about business, and then started setting up a practise and learning all about the business of dentistry. Whereas it almost feels like since you were a child you were absorbing business by osmosis by doing your homework in the dental practise. Do you think a lot of the business acumen and knowledge, do you think that’s come from an early age just by observing your mother?

Zainab: You know what, I still don’t know how much business acumen I really do have. I feel like that’s an area that I’ve just landed into. I don’t think I’m very business-minded. I think I’ve been really patient-focused, patient-centred treatment. That’s my thing. I think that indirectly is what’s grown my … After mum retired, over the last three years I started just working really hard, but not because I wanted to make lots of money. It was because I was really into it.

Zainab: The bystander effect was that the clientele just grew. It was actually when I saw that it was growing that I felt confident enough to say, “I can buy this practise and keep it running, because I think I’ve grown the clientele here enough to keep it running well.” It wasn’t something, I don’t think I have a huge interest in business per se, or have an entrepreneurial spirit or anything like that really. It’s mainly the dentistry, and I think the effect of that is just that it’s grown well.

Zainab: My husband takes care of more of the business side than I do. I’m a really details person and I’ll get involved in everything, but financially he will make a lot of wise decisions. Whereas I will look at how people will perceive things or what branding it should have, branding should look, and things like that. It’s different.

Payman L: Running a business, owning a business has a financial aspect to it, but I wouldn’t say that’s the key aspect. Sorry.

Zainab: No.

Zainab: Well, not the way I see it in any case.

Payman L: The branding is a big, huge part of it. The way you handle your customers, your patients, and then the way you handle your people.

Zainab: That’s the crux.

Payman L: Your customers and your people really is the crux.

Zainab: Is the crux. That’s where my mind is.

Payman L: I know why you’re saying that you don’t think of yourself as a business person because you think of yourself as a dentist. You can be both. You can be both. It’s funny, because when Prav says it, he says it with a glow. In your world, business is a glowing thing, whereas I feel like Zainab doesn’t want to be known as a business person. She wants to be known as a doctor.

Zainab: It’s just that I don’t think in numbers. It may change, and I think I’d take pride in it still if it changed. I don’t have any qualm with it. It’s just that I just don’t have that way of …

Prav Solanki: I think you’ve probably nailed most aspects about business that a lot of dentists have to train and learn that you take for granted. For example, speaking to people, communicating, sales without selling, marketing. How much does Instagram influence your business? Does it generate new patients for you?

Zainab: It does, for sure.

Prav Solanki: You’re a marketer.

Zainab: Yes.

Payman L: Definitely.

Zainab: It’s how it’s ended up being. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Marketing’s a huge aspect of running a business. I think a lot of this has probably come through osmosis and you are a successful businesswoman in your own right. I guess what you’re thinking about is patients come first and the detail in that.

Zainab: You’re right. Social media, it’s had a huge influence. I would say that it’s put the word out there. It has, and it’s essentially been a huge source of advertising. That’s it really. That’s been huge. People then know where you are, who you are, what you’re up to, the quality of your work, and it reaches far and wide. Definitely has been a big influence. I didn’t start it thinking it would be but it has.

Prav Solanki: When was the point, what was the turning point where you thought, “Crikey, this Instagram stuff is really working”? Was it after a month, a year, six months? What was the point where it was-

Zainab: No. It was about two years ago. I first started my Instagram about five years ago, four or five years ago or six maybe now. I’m losing track of time. I think two years ago is when I really noticed. I started posting more. When I first started out, I was just posting sporadically here and there, nothing really consistent. It was making a bit of a difference, but it was a small circle that it was exposed to.

Zainab: Then the following slowly, slowly grew. As it grew, the inquiries grew, and I got busier. I found it harder to post, but because I saw that it was helpful and because patients would come in and say, “I’ve seen this photo, can you tell me more about it? I’ve seen what you wrote in your caption. It was actually really informative. I hadn’t ever come across composite bonding.” I thought captions make a difference. Let’s explain this properly. I felt quite responsible about what I was sharing. I just started to think more about what to share and doing it whenever I could.

Zainab: I just gradually noticed that it was working. Patients would come and mention it. We have a feedback. In our registration forms in the practise, it says, “Where did you hear about the practise?” I’d see Instagram a lot, and I thought, “Wow. Actually this is really influential.” About two years ago.

Prav Solanki: Did that change your focus of how you was going to approach Instagram? Have you got a strategy, hashtags, pictures right-hand side, dentistry middle column, lifestyle, that sort of thing? Have you got a strategy or a-

Zainab: I do now.

Payman L: Yeah. I noticed that there’s noses and lips on the left-hand side.

Zainab: Yes. That’s it exactly.

Prav Solanki: Has that just come about by chance or have you learned the craft of Instagram and hacked the algorithm?

Zainab: I definitely haven’t hacked any algorithm. I’ve been hearing that there is an algorithm and I don’t quite know what it means. What happened is I was just posting without any themes. I had a lot to post, lots of content. I’d sit there and think, “I don’t know which one to post. Should I post this one or this one?” I’d look at my page. It just looked a bit messy. Being in aesthetic dentistry or aesthetic medicine you are all about being visual about things. I thought I really want to make this look neat.

Zainab: I’m doing lots of different things, and I don’t know how people will understand really how one minute I’m posting teeth and the next minute it’s a nose, and then the next minute it’s something else, and then randomly I’ll put something miscellaneous. I just thought, “Why don’t I just do a column, one of each?” It actually looked nicer and I just carried on doing it.

Prav Solanki: Wow. In terms of business now, where does the majority of your new patients come from? Is it still Instagram?

Zainab: Word of mouth, so families now. It’s the sisters and the mums. It just grows like that. Instagram has still been a big part of it because it’s reaching people further out who live far away, but I’m now seeing lots and lots of siblings and friends of friends and so on. As far as even, which is really nice, if a dental student comes and shadows, they’ll bring their mum next time. It’s really nice. It’s just growing in that way.

Prav Solanki: How much personal content do you put on there, like real life stuff? Do you put your personal life, what you’re up to, going here, or here on holiday, shopping there and that sort of stuff?

Zainab: I didn’t used to. I thought of it as this is just a professional page. I’ll just show my professional aspect and nothing really personal. Then friends of mine said, “Do you know, it would be nice if you just shared a bit about you.” Because I think people would like to see it. I’d ask patients, so they’d come in and I’d get to know them a bit, et cetera. They’d mention Instagram, and then they’d say, “I saw you were doing this or that.” I thought, “What do you think about it? Do you think I should share more personal stuff?” They’d say, “Yeah. Think it’s really nice for people to connect and see what you’re about.”

Zainab: I had that encouragement. I just thought, right, I’ll do little snippets. I’m still quite reserved, and it’s just still very much little snippets. I think slowly, slowly I’m willing to share a little bit more with time. It still is predominantly a professional page, and it will always, I think, just be snippets.

Payman L: We just had Linda Greenwall. She runs a group for women in dentistry. What’s your view on women in dentistry? Would you say it’s harder being a woman dentist than a man dentist?

Zainab: I haven’t experienced that yet. I was a little bit confused at first when I saw groups like that. I listened to what was being talked about and I understand that a lot of women have had difficult experiences. I can’t say that I have. I don’t know whether it’s just been lucky, or it could be that I’ve been oblivious to it at university and in my VT. When I see somebody being particularly difficult, I don’t necessarily assume it’s because I’m a woman.

Zainab: I just haven’t really felt like that, and I generally don’t have a victim mentality. I haven’t seen that. Maybe it’s a factor that I’ve been under my mother’s practise for a long time. I’ve still been exposed to five years at dental school and VT, two years, that’s a good seven years. I never experienced anything to be honest.

Payman L: Linda was saying that there aren’t enough women speakers. Have you noticed that? Have you thought about teaching, that sort of thing?

Zainab: I’ve been fortunate to have been asked to teach facial aesthetics. I’ve been doing that for the last five years. I would love to teach and speak more. I have noticed that there is a little imbalance, but only because it’s been highlighted. I wasn’t really focusing on it and noticing it much. It’s been highlighted more recently and I do agree that there is that. I think women should get out there more.

Zainab: I was talking to someone about this recently, and I can’t put my finger on the reason. I don’t want to necessarily think it’s because if women fall into this trap of feeling victimised, it’s not going to get much better. I think part of it is that women need to put themselves out there a bit more, so women need to put themselves forward and say, “I can do this. Would you like me to?”

Payman L: Women are less confident than men.

Zainab: I don’t know if it’s that. Because I think women have a lot of inner confidence. It’s a complex thing, and I think it comes from a combination of things. Partly women think I’m not sure I’ll be able to balance this with my life, if they’re particularly busy with home life and other things. I think although they think they can do it, they’re worried about rejection. I think that sometimes, and this is where now men’s mentality might come into things, is I think that there is this thing where women are thought to be nurturing, you know traditionally nurturing, home people, and although we’re successful dentists, et cetera, we’re quite happy not using our voice.

Zainab: There is this assumption that women don’t mind, but actually I think women have a lot to offer. I think that does need to change. There needs to be more of an emphasis on what women can deliver in our …

Prav Solanki: Do you think being a mother factors into that? Linda was talking earlier about being a mother, feeding the child, waking up early, waking up at night, running the practise. Eight days after giving birth she was in the practise, and just balancing all of that. Talk me through, you’re a mother. You’ve got one on the way in about 10 days time. Just talk us through how you balance all that and how that factors in your future success.

Zainab: It’s not easy. It’s really hard work. I work really, really, really, really hard, but I don’t know if I would have if I didn’t really enjoy the work. I think because I enjoy it and it gives me so much fulfilment, it’s become a part of my identity. For me to sit at home continuously for a whole year would be dampening down something that’s really there throughout, like really wanting to do something. I couldn’t do it.

Zainab: I tried to. I was at home for six months with my daughter, really enjoyed it. She’s my number one. It meant the world to me to have her. That constant feeding, that constant nappies, and so on, and just literally just being in that routine and not being able to talk to a child. At some point you just want to get out and do what you do.

Zainab: Seven months in I was really trying to get back to work and finding a support network to make it work. I just did it really, really gradually. It wasn’t easy. I nursed my baby for two years, but I still went to work. I just worked around everything. I think what’s beautiful about dentistry is that women have the option to work part-time, and then just build up and adapt according to your child’s needs. You can make it work. Some professions don’t allow that and then women are torn, and they want to be at work, but they want to be at home, and they have to then just choose.

Zainab: Not everyone can get the best of both worlds. I think we’re lucky, we can. It’s not been easy. It’s definitely a struggle. The juggle is real. It’s definitely tough.

Payman L: Zainab, I think it’s even happened to me. I’ve been a fat bald Iranian in Kent, in some little town in Kent I was the dentist. The guy would walk in expecting to see a dentist, what he thought was a dentist. I could see he was just sort of immediately thinking, “Oh, who’s this guy?” Have you had that happen, you have people come in and not expecting to see a woman in a headscarf as their dentist?

Zainab: I have had that. Yes.

Payman L: Go on. Tell us about that.

Zainab: I’ve had, and it’s not been verbalised, but you just get the vibe. I’ve had mainly men walk in, arms folded, and they just think, I don’t know what exactly they’re thinking. Either, “I don’t think she’s going to be able to help me.” Or maybe they don’t like the headscarf. I have no idea, but there’s something defensive there before we’ve even started talking.

Prav Solanki: You know exactly what it is.

Zainab: I’m not always sure. I’ve had vibes.

Payman L: I mean sometimes people are nervous when they come to, a lot of times.

Zainab: It could be that, so anxiety, for sure, is always one. Sometimes you just get the vibe. You can see the moment you have that eye contact there’s a thought …

Payman L: Visual cues.

Zainab: … in their mind. Once they’ve sat in the chair, and I’m really passionate about personal development. I’ve done lots of all of that stuff for the last, I’d say, about seven years. I am quite good at making a situation not about me and turning a situation around that can initially be awkward and proving that there’s a lot of value to come in this conversation or in this appointment.

Zainab: I can then within a few minutes see their hands relax and they start just listening to what I’m saying, and then the building of the trust. I’ve managed to overcome those moments. It’s never been something that’s limited me or actually put me off. I just get through it and manage to turn it around quite well. Actually they become quite loyal patients. I’ve never had an issue.

Payman L: It’s a good attitude to have on it though.

Zainab: Yeah. Because a lot of it is just perception, and it’s not what it is. You can turn it around just by showing who you are, rather than getting defensive and going in a bubble. There’s no point. Just you’re there to deliver something and let that shine.

Payman L: I think in the same way as when someone complains, you can turn them into your best patients by handling them correctly.

Zainab: Exactly.

Payman L: The same way, if they come in with a minus feeling you can equal and opposite that.

Zainab: Exactly.

Payman L: Tell me about your composite work, because I think in the end right now you’re here because of the fact that you’ve come up on our radar, on the Mini Smile Makeover with really beautiful composite work.

Zainab: Thank you.

Payman L: It really is. Do you feel like that can be taught? Do you feel like there’s a talent there?

Zainab: Yeah. I’m sure it can be taught.

Payman L: Because we grapple with this a lot. We teach 30 dentists a month on this subject.

Zainab: Really?

Payman L: Some people are always scared that, “I don’t have the talent.” We’re always saying that if you follow the simple steps you can get there. What was your journey from the composite perspective?

Zainab: I’ve always had a background where my mum draws paintings and she used to encourage us. Art was always something we just found really fascinating. We’d love drawing and we were quite particular about things.

Payman L: Actually, some of your first Instagram posts were drawings of-

Zainab: Yeah. Were actually drawings.

Payman L: I saw that.

Zainab: I’m quite particular about how things are done in my hands. They need to be a certain way. When it came to composites, I think that it was literally just practise, practise, practise. Then I’d look at pictures, look at what’s this beautiful smile, what’s desirable. I shadowed a dentist in Beverly Hills, Dorfman, Doctor Dorfman. He had wall pictures, like you’ve got smiles here. He had lots of these. I’d look and just really absorb what was a beautiful smile, and then just try and recreate it.

Zainab: I had a slightly, well, you could say OCD approach towards a composite. If I was doing a tooth, I wouldn’t let the patient leave until I was really happy with it. I’d seat them up, have a look, check with the lips, check with everything. “Sorry. Can I just sit you back down? Can I just polish that bit a bit?” That was how I was doing it. Then the rewarding feeling of their reaction, and it’s addictive when patients are that happy about something.

Zainab: Then I just wanted to build on it. It was taught, at the same time, of course, because I went on the Paul Tipton course. Doctor Monique ran some of his courses at the time. This was 2012.

Payman L: When he was teaching Tipton’s … Yeah.

Zainab: When he was teaching us, so quite a long time ago, about seven years ago. We did composites then. We also had a day where lab technicians came in and we did wax ups. On that day, we all did wax ups, so four front teeth. The lab technician took mine and said, “I like this one.” There’s always that positive encouragement. Then it was experimenting with different instruments, finding that warming composite really makes such a difference. It just built up, and then photography.

Zainab: I’d take photos and I’d go home and I’d look, and I just wouldn’t like something. Then I’d know what I want to change next time. It was just building on all of that. It’s definitely a process, and I still have lots to learn, I’m sure, constantly. And capturing the line angles, and, yeah, definitely lots more to learn.

Payman L: What are your plans going forward?

Zainab: I want to continue doing what I’m doing, but just continue taking it to the next level each time. I am, where I am, really happy doing what I’m doing now. I just want to do more of it. I’ve recently done a course by Doctor Sam Jethwa, Bespoke Smile. What that was all about, it was translating minimally invasive dentistry into porcelain veneers, mainly so that we can deliver porcelain veneers in an ethical way so that we have the longevity without the staining and so on.

Zainab: That’s the pitfall, I think, just of composite. Although what I love about composite, what really drew me is I could transform someone’s smile in a completely additive way without drilling their teeth. Always felt ethical. Could sleep at night. Happy. Everyone’s happy. The staining over time for some patients who aren’t good with their diets is a limitation. If I can translate that ethical way or that minimally invasive way into delivering porcelain veneers, that’s what I want to start doing more of where applicable.

Prav Solanki: What’s the replacement time for composite veneers? I’ve had numerous conversations with either people who teach composite veneers or other dentists who do them. They say a big worry is that after three years or however long it is that they’re probably going to need redoing. I just want to get an idea in terms of how easy is it to redo a composite veneer or is that the time where porcelain kicks in?

Zainab: I would then just have to put it to a patient. I tell patients that it will last somewhere between three to seven years, and that it’s very dependent on your diet, your maintenance, how often you come in, eating habits. Do you grind your teeth? All the colourful things in their diet, but also how hard the foods are that they’re eating. I have that discussion and I think what I’ve found is it’s really variable and really does depend on all those things. I can never really truly predict when a composite’s going to need replacement. I just tell them-

Payman L: You also haven’t been around long enough to see your composites seven years.

Zainab: Yeah. Exactly. I’ve seen that over the last five years my rate of chips, fractures is not high but the staining is something I see a lot.

Payman L: Staining’s definitely the primary concern.

Zainab: That’s the primary thing. Yeah.

Payman L: Then obviously polishing is a big factor. The composite you use is a big factor, by the way.

Zainab: Yeah. This is something I’m learning and want to go into a bit more actually. At that point when it fails, it’s having that conversation again. I always warm them. There’s always we’ve got a consent form. I’m always warning them this is something that requires maintenance. When it chips, you’ll need to have it either replaced or repaired or look at plan B. That’s instilled into all consultations.

Payman L: When you say you want to do more of what you’re doing now, I mean that could be you want to open six more practises, or it could mean you want to-

Zainab: It’s the nature of my work. No. Just the clinical.

Payman L: You want to only do minimally invasive cosmetic dentistry yourself and let other people do other. Is that what you mean?

Zainab: Yeah. I want to continue doing minimally invasive dentistry, but really, really get a bit more transformative in my smiles. Apply more disciplines to my smile makeovers and expand on my facial aesthetics. I now do mainly facial aesthetics injectables and skin care. I’d like to expand a bit more. There’s so much more out there, but it’s a real …

Payman L: What, the lasers and things?

Zainab: There’s loads. Yeah. There’s loads. I’m not one to just try and do everything. Like I said, I want to master one thing before I go onto the next, which means I take my time. I don’t jump into things too quickly. My vision is to just become more of an expert in what I’m doing clinically. In terms of business and buying more practises, I don’t visualise it. I don’t visualise me buying many. I want this one to be really, really, really successful, fruitful, have the reputation it deserves and represent us really well.

Payman L: How many years out of college are you?

Zainab: Nine years.

Payman L: You seem to have a real head on your shoulders. Self-awareness firstly. Which is rare at your age. Also, you seem to be relaxed with your progress. A lot of times with people at your level, at your stage, there’s an impatience. You don’t seem to have that. You seem to be very relaxed in your skin.

Zainab: The reason is-

Payman L: What do you attribute that? Have you always been that way?

Zainab: I’ve always been that way. I think it’s partly the parenting, I think, I’ve had, that’s just constantly instilling confidence. Parents are amazing. They’re role models. I’ve seen them always be quite grounded, level-headed, patient. They have goals but they always instilled this idea of contentment.

Payman L: You say that, but my brother and me are totally different. His brother and him are totally different. Same parents.

Zainab: It’s true. That’s absolutely true. My sister and I are completely different. Absolutely. It’s just the way that I perceive things. Contentment is something that they always talk about. Then personal development’s something I literally dived into when I was about 25. I’m now 34. When I was there, oh gosh, it was just literally-

Payman L: Have you done programmes?

Zainab: Yeah.

Payman L: What have you done?

Zainab: There’s one called The Landmark Forum.

Payman L: I’ve done that.

Zainab: Have you done it?

Payman L: Yeah. I’ve done that.

Zainab: What did you think?

Payman L: I didn’t like it.

Zainab: Really?

Payman L: Yeah.

Zainab: I loved it.

Payman L: I got it. I got it.

Zainab: You got it.

Payman L: I got it. I understood it, and I’m running rackets. Yeah. Definitely. For those of you who’ve …

Zainab: For whoever else knows.

Payman L: Did you go master’s level …

Zainab: If you know, you know.

Payman L: … and all of the … Did you just keep on going?

Zainab: I did the advanced course.

Payman L: I found it a bit cultish.

Zainab: I get that. What I did is I chose what to take from it, and then what I felt wasn’t of value.

Payman L: What else?

Zainab: Essentially I found it really useful. I drew loads from it.

Payman L: It’s a nice way to delete your past and just go forward. I like the idea a lot. What else did you do?

Zainab: Other than Landmark Forum.

Payman L: Yeah.

Zainab: Well, Landmark Forum really was a big part of it. With the Landmark Forum it was a three day, as you know, three days. Then there’s 10 seminars that you do. For about three months every single week I’d go in, and then the advanced course. Then I just thought, “Right, now I’ve got these tools, I need to go out there and live it.” They wanted me to do the next step, and I just thought, “I’m at a stage where I now need to just go out there and use all this, this toolkit and see if it’s working.”

Zainab: It was. I was really quite happy with it. To be honest, it’s quite intense. I was quite drained from all those evenings there, days and evenings. It’s really intense, but the value I got from it was something that you do not forget. It’s like riding a bike. You don’t go back. They’re tools forever. Essentially, it was about trying to not delete. I get what you mean by delete the past.

Payman L: I wasn’t saying in a bad way.

Zainab: No. No. In a way that can be good, but it’s about choosing what you want to keep about your interpretations of yourself and getting rid of your limiting factors, your limiting thoughts, and then having a blank canvas, and then creating. How that manifested is you know how I gave the example it’s not about me in an interaction? If I choose it not to be.

Payman L: Mm-hmm.

Zainab: That’s the power I got, that actually someone there has got a story and how they’re perceiving me is that is the story. It’s not real. That allows me to filter out its significance completely. It’s mindfulness. Ultimately it all came back to mindfulness. Then I did lots of other little things, meditation, mindfulness, et cetera. To be honest, the value I’ve got most was actually the Landmark Forum.

Payman L: Have you done it?

Zainab: Then some reading, but the Landmark Forum-

Prav Solanki: Do you meditate now, or is that part of daily practise?

Zainab: I would like it to be but it’s not now. It was up until I had my three year old, and then she is my every spare minute.

Prav Solanki: Got you.

Zainab: It’s something that I should aspire to go back to, because it really does help to just take a few moments a day. Definitely.

Prav Solanki: What’s your routine like as a mother, wife, and practise owner and practitioner?

Payman L: How many days a week do you drill?

Zainab: I work four days a week. They’re pretty long days. Sometimes 10, 11 hour days.

Prav Solanki: You start at?

Zainab: Start at about 10:00. I got into this routine where at least I’d give her breakfast and do the morning thing with her, and then go to work. Because I start at 10:00, I could work a bit later. In 2018 I got into the habit of working routinely till about 8:00, 9:00 PM, and, to be honest, losing track of time, and just being really, really into it. Then I made a New Year’s resolution this year that I had to get more work-life balance. Now I aim to not see any patients past 6:00, sometimes it drags to 6:30, but then there’s recordkeeping, et cetera. Now I get home at a reasonable time. Which …

Prav Solanki: Which is?

Zainab: … for some is not reasonable. Compared to last year it is. It’s about 7:30.

Payman L: Your husband, Ahmad, what does he do? Same thing.

Zainab: Yeah. Ahmad’s different. He’s more of an early bird, so he starts at 8:00 and traditionally used to finish about 5:30, 6:30. Now that he’s joined Harrow, he’s still starting at 8:00 but finishing later. He’s working really hard. We’ve talked about trying to achieve more work-life balance now. Now that we have a second baby on the way, and we both need to cap it really. Normal, sociable hours, 5:30, 6:00-ish. That’s our goal. Then if it happens on the off day or we will allocate an evening per week, that’s fine, but it shouldn’t be every day.

Prav Solanki: What happens with the little one when you guys are at work? You see her in the morning, do the breakfast thing, and then, what is it, nursery support?

Zainab: This is in those four days, so what I did is Layla, I didn’t take her to nursery for three years. I was nagged to and advised to by in-laws and others. My feeling towards nursery was that she was too young to be in an environment where she was going to be floating around many others. I’d looked at the Department of Health psychologists and what they’ve said, and three is the optimum age, so I stuck to that. Up until three I wanted her to have that one-to-one, either me on my three days off or somebody really, really trusted and who’s bonded to her.

Zainab: That person was the nanny that we have. She has been like the Mrs Doubtfire of our house. A real support. Without her I don’t know whether I’d be doing what I’m doing. She started coming just one day a week when Layla was seven months old and bonded loads with her. Then slowly I built it into two days. I didn’t start doing four days until about 12 months ago. It was about three days for a while.

Zainab: They just really had a lovely bond. I could see that Layla was happy, and that gave me the comfort to carry on doing what I’m doing. The routine, where my husband came into this is in 2018 where I worked intensely he would come home before me, and he would take over. Sometimes he’d get her to bed. Sometimes he wouldn’t. Sometimes I’d arrive late and she’s still awake and I’ll just take over. It was just teamwork. You know what, there’s no recipe where it’s all perfect.

Zainab: I was saying this to someone the other day who was like, “I’m worried about how I’ll juggle and should I have children?” I said, “Of course just do it and then survive it.” Because you just make it work. We step in. Whoever is there will step in.

Prav Solanki: As a team.

Zainab: Yeah. As a team. Now that we both work the practise in the last seven months, I’m getting home before him, and now he’s taken the later evenings and doing things, so we’re just teamwork.

Payman L: What’s your top tip to someone considering buying a practise now? I know it’s a bit different because you bought your mum’s, but what’s your top tip about running a business as opposed to just working in one?

Zainab: I think choosing the right practise is a big thing. I had the choice to have bought my mum’s NHS practise. I wouldn’t have minded buying an NHS practise but I didn’t like the area. I didn’t think the clientele were the type of clientele that I could do the type of work I wanted to do on for many years.

Zainab: I think deciding what you want to do with the rest of your dental career, getting clear on what kind of treatments you want to offer is important. Because then you’ll choose the right area and I think the area really matters, and the type of clientele that will come in through the door. If you are quite entrepreneurial, don’t mind taking a step back and just having a business running, then you could worry less about that. If you want to be actively involved, you have to think about who you’re going to be seeing every day and whether you want to do those kind of treatments.

Zainab: I think that’s probably, for me, one of the main things I’m thinking of when you asked me that. Other than that, all the business, all the financial side, to be honest, quite alien to me. I would say get a really good accountant who advises you really well. Always, always think about your why. You mentioned a few things, and just going back to personal development, one of the things I got was any decision going forward I really have to think about my why.

Zainab: Even on social media, we touched on the value of social media. When it gets too much I’m always thinking, “Why? What is my social media about?” Because it can get really, really too much, as so many people are talking about this now. Any decision I always go back to my why. I would really advise people get to grips with understanding why they’re doing something, what’s the driving force, and that will crystallise a lot.

Prav Solanki: Do you ever get social media overload? You know you kind of feel like, “Someone’s left a comment. I’ve got to respond to this.” And all of a sudden before you know it you’ve got this overload and then you have that moment of clarity and think, “I better start living my real life now.” Do you ever experience that?

Zainab: Yeah. I think there was a phase where I was really active. The more active you get the more engagement you’re going to get, …

Prav Solanki: And the more business.

Zainab: … the inquiries, the more questions. Then you feel that you have a duty to answer those questions, and then it becomes too time consuming. Then you just think other things that are important need to come first. Then people get a bit annoyed that you haven’t replied yet. Then you just go back to your why. Why do I need to be that active? Is this giving me value or is this taking me away from what’s important? That comes and goes quite a lot actually, that conversation in my mind.

Prav Solanki: Is that like a conflicting battle? How do you switch off?

Zainab: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Because I have that sometimes that I’ll be at home. The one defining factor for me is I was on Facebook and my three year old came up to me and said, “Put your phone away daddy.” That was a real defining moment.

Zainab: Moment.

Prav Solanki: I thought to myself, “Well, I can just check my comments because she’s at the other side of the room,” but I wasn’t in the room with her if that makes sense. That was my why.

Payman L: I’m accused of that quite a lot as well.

Zainab: I was as well at one stage, and then I just realised she’s growing really, really quickly, and these moments, especially from working that much, these moments are precious. When I’m with her I just put my phone where I cannot see it. If she’s asleep I feel more at liberty. If she’s awake, then I just feel there’s loads of mum guilt, and then it just needs to be away. Actually, off the table even, just out of sight so that I’m not even tempted to check it. It’s not worth it.

Zainab: If you’ve got kids and they need you and your time with them is limited, then it’s not. It has its place and it’s good and it carries lots of value. Dentistry’s, I think, really changed because of social media. It’s changing a lot because of social media, and that’s just dentistry. The world-

Payman L: Good and bad.

Zainab: Good and bad. The whole world is changing because of it. It carries loads of value. It’s a place of influence. It’s a great platform, and we can use it really, really well, but not when it consumes us.

Payman L: Zainab have you read a book called Black Box Thinking?

Zainab: No. I haven’t.

Payman L: It’s about when a plane crashes they don’t assign blame. They want to just say what can we learn from the plane crash, and it actually relates it to medical. When there’s a mistake medically everyone tries to cover it up because that’s not the way we think about mistakes in medicine, and so we never learn from those mistakes. We’ve been asking people, if they want to share with us, what’s the biggest clinical mistake you’ve ever made?

Zainab: Thankfully nothing sinister. I have given anaesthetic on the wrong side of the mouth.

Payman L: Did you just explain it to the patient?

Zainab: I just explained it to the patient, and just said, “I’m so sorry. I’ve just numbed the wrong side.”

Payman L: It’s not bad in nine years.

Zainab: Thank God. Thank God. Touch wood. Again, even if it was a bigger mistake I think owning it. You just have to own it. We are human and just be really honest about it and apologise. Then reassure and say it doesn’t mean that we’ve caused any problems. It’s just I’m really sorry that you’re numb on the wrong side. I’m going to have to numb the other side now. That’s the only thing I can remember thus far.

Prav Solanki: Just one thing that we didn’t quite touch upon, you mentioned that you’re teaching facial aesthetics now. Who’s that for? What does that involve? Does it take up much time of yours?

Zainab: I teach for a company called Oris Medical who initially trained me six years ago. When they trained, actually I started facial aesthetics, didn’t think I was going to go that much into it. On the training course I was really intrigued and really loved it. Then just started treating my own patients, and it sort of just kicked off and the interest grew. Then about a year later they were recruiting, and they sent an email out to some of the delegates. I think they’d seen some of the work we were up to. That’s where I think I did begin sharing some of the work I was doing on social media.

Zainab: They asked if I’d had any teaching experience or what skills I could offer, or why I would be a good teacher, et cetera. I replied, and then they invited me for an interview and I came in. We had a chat and then they said, “Could you pretend you’re teaching someone now in front of us?” I did that. Then they said, “You’ve got the job.” I said, “Okay.” They said, “First come in on a day where you’re just watching how we teach and how we run the course.”

Zainab: I came in and actually it was really, really fun. I felt straight away part of the team. I began doing that. How it all started was once a month roughly, and then they wanted me to do more. They then expanded to run courses up in Leeds and they needed somebody to take all the products and lead the training. My sister had also, I got her on board and she started training as well. She was really interested. She was also practising and she loves teaching. She’s a great teacher too. She joined the team.

Zainab: There was a team of about five of us, and so Ustra and I, sisters, went up north and ran those Leeds courses for about a year. It was really good fun. We really enjoyed it. It was a big position of responsibility. Then they came back to the conclusion that they had more demand in London. We just continued running the London ones. Slowly, slowly some of the trainers either were having kids, well, I was one of them, had a kid. Took some time out, came back, and then Ustra had two children in this time, came back, et cetera.

Zainab: We were a really great team. Some of them lived really far away. Ustra moved up north. It ended up being that I’ve been one of their main lead trainers, the only London-based one for a while. Now I’m taking another little break, but hopefully be back.

Prav Solanki: Do you see teaching featuring heavily in your future?

Zainab: I really like teaching.

Prav Solanki: You enjoy it.

Zainab: I find it really rewarding. It’s really nice to see how people shift from that beginning stage of feeling vulnerable and clueless to suddenly this new skillset in quite a short time. That’s really rewarding. What’s nice and what I’ve learned from Oris Medical is the ethos there was really lovely, in that the support is ongoing. I still have delegates from the last five years still in touch with me, still ask me things, and we’re now colleagues. It’s really, really lovely. I do like it. I definitely see it as part of my future.

Prav Solanki: If you could do it all again, go back to school and fast forward till today, what would you change? What would be different along that path and what would have you done differently?

Zainab: I think the career pathway that I chose I still would have chosen, for sure. I think the timing I chose it would have been the same. If I was to tell my younger self something it would be probably stress less. Don’t get stressed. This is before I did all that personal development stuff, when I was an undergrad. I used to feel the heat, really feel the stress of dental school and all the pressures. I would have loved to have done personal development earlier. I think that’s something that I think is really invaluable.

Zainab: As professionals who deal with people and such intricate jobs that can be stressful, I think we need that toolkit. I would say that’s something I really, really am glad I did. My only regret is not doing it earlier, and I would recommend it to others.

Prav Solanki: It’s been a pleasure having you on our podcast today.

Zainab: Thank you.

Prav Solanki: Thank you so much for sharing your journey.

Payman L: Thank you so much.

Zainab: Thanks so much for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thank you.

Payman L: It’s been brilliant.

Zainab: Really enjoyed it. Thanks.

Payman L: Thanks.

Outro Voice: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one-on-one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. We really, really appreciate it if you would …

Payman L: Give us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman L: Thanks a lot guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.