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[00:00:00] This is Dental Leaders podcast, where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders and dentists, treat your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:00:17] It’s my pleasure to introduce the new episode of the Dental Leaders Bulletin in time for the PTA elections. What is the media pick? Why should you be interested in it and who’s standing? Well, there’s nine candidates today I thought would be useful and a bit different to get two of the younger candidates who are deciding to throw that in the ring, I guess, to provide an alternative to to what we’ve seen so far. I’ll let them speak for themselves on that subject. We’ve got Jemmy Pallay, who actually has been on our podcast before you wet fingered. You heard his story with the new season and many practises, mixed practises that he’s running, as well as the LDC work that he’s done. And we’ve had a woman who’s an associate and again, refreshing to have an associate lady who’s so involved politically. Let’s start with this. Do you want to just introduce yourself to tell us how you got here, OK?

[00:01:29] Oh, it’s quite a convoluted story. And so practise wise, I started off I did my job search, went on to get an NHS associate job, as most of us do, and didn’t really like it because it was kind of hectic and not particularly rewarding and very treadmill. So within a year, I decided to broaden my horizons. I went and got a job working a couple of days a week and community a couple of days a week and mixed private and NHS practise and then ended up working in the prison service for a year, which was brilliant. My favourite job ever working for the out of hours as well. So I just did lots of different jobs for a few years just to find out what I actually enjoyed doing and then settled working as a predominantly NHS associate and good practise really enjoyed. It was a training practise, so I applied to be an FDA trainer, did that for a couple of years and then one of our local TPD jobs came up. So I did that, which I love. That was such a brilliant job working with new graduates all the time. I did that for about six years, ended up doing some work with the PLB Abe Fortas Foundation, but experience stuff as well for the local area in the last year or so of that job and left out a couple of years ago. And now I’m just working in private practise and also doing some Botox clinics, a physiotherapy practise, just to occasionally work somewhere where I’m a dentist, which is really quite nice.

[00:03:02] So that’s my kind of personal clinical background. But while I was working in H-E, so first as a trainer and then as a TPD, these jobs kind of snowballed a little bit. So you end up going to the LDC because you kind of have to because they need to know what’s going on with H.E. and then you end up being sucked into the LDN. And because the big you had multiple Elden’s, I ended up as LDC chair. I then got involved with the BDA stuff because it’s always the same people that do everything. So we ended up chairing and being the treasurer for the Suffolk section of the BDI, the treasurer for the local branch branch president a couple of years ago. And now I’m treasurer and secretary for Branch. And these things just sort of go hand in hand and national media stuff. I was elected for GDP six point six six years ago or something like that, and did a TransAm as a GDP representative, the east of England. And that was really, really interesting. And I got to know what happened at the Beadie. I was going down to the head office where I could see the G20 meetings, meeting people, talking to people, finding out what they were doing. I mean, it’s just fascinating and it just gets you out with your day job. So, yeah, I got very sucked into it. End of that triennium. I stood to be the English Council representative for the east of England and was elected and then subsequently elected as chair of that committee, which is the position I’ve held for the last now three and a half years would normally be three years.

[00:04:42] But because I’ve covered all the elections for pushbacks, I don’t much like three and a half years, which involved a year is being the UK council chair. And for those that were unfamiliar with the structure of the British Dental Association, you’ve got the board of directors, the PAC, what the current election is for 15 seats. And those people run the business, we then have the cross committees and things like general practise, community community services, hospitals, armed forces, and they deal with the issues specific to those crafts under the umbrella of PTA. And then we have the country councils. And what they do is they basically try and feed into the media to make sure the media are doing the right things for the members. So we sort of hold the board of directors to account with regard to what they’re doing with their business day in, day out to make sure that it’s meeting the needs of the membership. So that’s that’s the job of the last three and a half years. And because I work quite a lot in head office and I work quite a lot with the pack and I kind of I know what it’s about and it really interests me. I thought, yeah, we’ll go for it. We’ll put our hat in the ring

[00:05:51] Before I come to Jemmy. What time frame between starting the first thing in politics and now how long is that?

[00:05:59] I think so. I graduated. So it looks like I’m really, really grateful for that. But we just some of the talking and I so I graduated in 2006, so it’s 15 years since I graduated. And I think I first started going to things like ABC meetings I’m getting involved with actually about 10 years ago. So and it started off quite gradually know just attending the board meeting. As I say, these things tend to snowball, especially if you live in rural areas where we find it really difficult to recruit somebody to come and do a job at the LDC. No one wants to hold a chequebook. So if you’re willing to get involved in any way, you sort of end up getting sucked into it and just being given more and more responsibility. Because, you know, if you’re interested, I mean, it’s interesting. It’s not lumbered with jobs that you don’t want to do. It is interesting stuff. It’s just finding people that have the capacity to deal with that. And I think in our profession, there are lots of people who are really, really worn out with everything they’re doing. And the thought of asking them to go to a meeting at the end of an evening of full clinic day and talk about dentistry even more, that that can be quite an ask. Well, it’s

[00:07:11] It’s really cool that energises you. I like that. Jemmy, how about you give us give us a summary.

[00:07:18] Well, thanks for having me on Payman. And you know about me anyway and did a podcast in the past. So I’m not going to rehash old old footage I qualified in 2004. So again, I’m no spring chicken either to be honest. But yeah, basically what more in general practise I would say associate FDA trainer when it was when it was called after trying to eat after the beep trainer. But you know, after training hours. Yes. So did that it take a bit more into the TPD role, much like kind of for a period of time I started chairing the LDC in Nottingham in about 2016. And then from there sort of I’ve done various positions at quite rightly said, you know, you get sucked into various roles. So, you know, quite a rich job chairing the LDC. Quite, quite a lot to do. Also worked and it NHS England again doing Pardeep. So performace. This decision panel now disciplines specific practitioner for NHS England. So, you know, a lot of pastoral care, a lot of working with young dentists, lots of kind of developing dentists and and working with them fitness wise. I’m clinical director of the Group of Practises Small Group with my wife.

[00:08:40] So kind of embedded in that sort of GDP world, you know, like family deal with about probably about 30 or so associates working with us. And so, you know, really kind of well aware of all the foibles and the issues that they’re having on the day to day basis. Quite, quite obviously, you know, I can see first hand the impact of the decisions that trickle down from that from the BDA on the sort of boots on the ground really not so embedded in the b’day. I think my motivation is to really expand a lot of the regional work I’ve been doing on more of a national platform. I think I’m used to dealing with multiple work streams and sort of, you know, lots of lots of eggs in lots of baskets and, you know, having to juggle all those different ideas and organise time and et cetera, et cetera. And I think that that sort of skill set, I feel that I could extrapolate that to on a more of a national platform, hopefully for the betterment of my fellow colleagues, various places. I suppose in a nutshell,

[00:09:47] Do you guys, you know, I guess maybe how do you have a lot of experience of this working with the different committees? But you’ve got an idea, let’s say. And then and then you’ve got. Navigating that massive organisation and trying to get that idea through that organisation, you know, what are the chances, let’s say Jemmy here had a fantastic idea with the chances of getting that idea onto a strategy of the media, even if he did get elected. How do you know how to navigate that system or.

[00:10:25] I mean, to be honest, if if he were elected as one of the 15 board members of the media pack and he had a good idea that he wanted to bring three and the media were capable of doing, I think this is the thing that we’ve really got to remember with the limitations of this job. This is what the media can do. And sometimes it gets confused with what we can do with their negotiations with the Department of Health about the contract or the work that happens with the CDO, about meetings or if it’s an idea that is something about the way the PDA functions as an organisation to support members from one of the board of directors comes up with the idea and brings it up at a board meeting. Absolutely. If it’s a good idea and everybody thinks it’s a good idea, crackle with it. You know, they are the people that set the strategy. It’s not sensible and it’s helpful. I mean, obviously, it’s a weird idea when the rest scratching their heads and going, well, that’s not really going to work, then it is going to get anywhere. But, you know, if it’s within the remit of what they can achieve as an organisation, then absolutely, you know, the world is you and you are one of the biggest voices in quite a small room at that point when you’re part of the pack.

[00:11:42] So, you know, if you can get your other pack members on board with your idea when it makes business sense, I mean, that’s the key. The critical thing. You have a responsibility for the media as a board member. You are running a business. You cannot do something that is going to put the business at risk of failure. You have to make sure that it’s financially viable. So as long as your ideas aren’t completely wacky and actually they would benefit the organisation, then having people coming onto the pack with ideas of how to change things for the future is what I feel really needs right now. Somebody driving forward. I think it’s very easy to get into a bit of a rut with the way things have been done a certain way, like things a certain way. And, you know, these are real primary membership categories that we need to be and all this sort of stuff. But, you know, it could do that, but it could do the bit of shaking up. I think it could be going to watch this and think about.

[00:12:48] Jemmy Jemmy with you.

[00:12:53] Yeah, I would agree with you. I think that, you know, injecting a little bit of, you know, indisciplined to the actual committees. Definitely, you know, I’ve been going to LDC conferences and, you know, being in multiple committees over many years. And I think that, you know, you’re right, you can gain you can get, you know, somehow handle it with a passion. You know, at the end of the day, regardless of who gets that vote today, I think if you can vote some end that’s got that, you know, sort of drive to, you know, shake the tree a little bit, see what falls, I think that’s probably a very sensible move, you know. Well, you know, existing infrastructure and, you know, only repairing the ship a slight direction here or there is probably not as exciting, in my opinion.

[00:13:41] Well, then, OK, let’s talk. What are the what are the why is this particular election an important one? I mean, well, it goes without saying we’ve got all the things that have happened over the last 18 months. But what are the key issues that you guys would like to discuss and, you know, ideas that you want to bring to those issues? Jemmy.

[00:14:02] But I’m not going to use the word unprecedented again. Yeah, this is again, you know, they basically basically the you know, I can’t remember everyday life. I think on a tipping point here, I feel that we’re on a tipping point. You know, when you go into forums, when you speak to young Dentists’, you know, when you speak to even the other end of the spectrum, they’re kind of planning their retirements a little sooner than what they thought. You know, it’s a b’day basically saying that 28 percent of registrants haven’t gone back on the GDC. I would say the tipping point, a huge tipping point. And I think that steadying the ship at this particular period is going to be probably have a knock on effect for years and years to come. I’ve certainly not seen anything like this before. And I think that the whole I think industry is going to look completely different in the next four to five years. I can already see huge changes happening. And, you know, there are lots of push and pull factors going on in the background. And it’s almost like the whole thing is coalescing and morphing at the moment. And I think that, you know, this is that’s why I think it’s important. I think it’s probably the most important one I’ve seen so far.

[00:15:09] Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s inevitable. You know, it’s not just dentistry. The society has changed the expectations of a population with regard to their safety, the everyday behaviours that work, life balance, everything has fundamentally changed. And I think we need to be respectful of what we need to be responsive to that one thing that really and this isn’t a new issue. This is always kind of got to me a bit over 80 percent of registered dentists or associates. That is not the reflected characteristic on the board of the BDA directors by a very significant margin. So I worry, looking at the media pack, that they’re safe members who pay the bills, who pay for the staff, who pay for everything, all the designers, the people that are running the business, the practise owners. And there’s a potential for it to be. And I mean, I am privy to the workings of the media in that I see it from the roles that I have within it. And I know that they’re trying not to be, but I think we need significantly greater associate focussed membership support because I can see increasing I mean, that’s been a huge increase in the number of people that are setting up squats. And I think that’s a really interesting development for dentistry. I’m really interested to see what happens without people leaving a licenced practise left, right and centre and either going just in private practise or setting up. We are seeing a real change in it. But also one thing that we’re definitely going to continue to see is the high level of associates, nonpracticing individuals who have no intention of owning a practise.

[00:17:01] You know, it’s not that we’re talking about young people at the beginning of their careers. There are plenty of people like myself. You don’t want to own a practise who want to develop other skills, who want to invest in themselves as individuals, who don’t want the responsibilities of running. A day to day business premises, and those people equally need support and they have had, I think, a pretty tough time in the last 18 months. I think there’s a lot of them questioning whether or not the jobs that they’re in are right for them, but they feel quite stuck. And I feel that as a union and as a as a professional body to be, they could be doing a lot more to help those individuals make those decisions, be it negotiating better contracts as an associate or setting up a school practise or going into a partnership or whatever they want to do with their careers. But I worry that because of the diversity with regard to profession or professional status, with regard to job role on the pay is so off kilter before we even get involved in personal characteristics like gender and ethnicity and everything else. That’s my major concern, really, the change in the last particularly the last 20 years. I said, you know, we’ve seen it a seismic shift and I don’t think it’s going to completely turn around. I think we need to be focussing more on these issues.

[00:18:23] Well, I mean, you’re right. Is play a massive, you know, percentage role in in the workforce. But, you know you know how that thing where we say, you know, look after dentists and dentists will look after patients, you know, that that idea. So are we now seeing that looking after US principles doesn’t mean that you’re going to be looking after associates. And I know it’s a it’s a divisive question because, you know, we like to sort of pit principals against associates, private against the NHS or whatever. But Jemmy, sitting here with 30 associates. Yeah. You know, what’s good for his associates is good for him and vice versa, because they’ve got multiple relationships outside of. I know there’s been abuse. Yeah, I know that we all that we all heard those stories and we’re going to have some of those people on, you know, then, you know, of course, that’s an issue. But Jemmy, is there a more pressing issue, in your opinion?

[00:19:24] Well, that is a very pressing issue. I mean, there was obviously this associate principal, you know, widening of the chasm, shall we say, between between the two parties over the covid period. But fundamentally, that was because everything was written so quickly. And when it was, you know, when when this wording and, you know, and you could arguably say it was a b’day responsibility to a certain extent. But some of the wording when challenged legally was difficult to actually, you know, you know, to to, you know, utilise or interpret that in a very sort of fair way between the two parties. And I think that was part of the issue. You know, in that role, the hopefully going forward, there’ll be a bit more to do, a bit more time and a bit more due diligence on that sort of wording. You know, hopefully they can come up with a solution that’s beneficial and that’s better for anyone. As Payman said, what’s good for an associates, good principal and vice versa? I strongly believe that. I think, you know, ultimately we have to work together in that respect. I mean, there are other pressing issues. I mean, the big issue is PPA. And, you know, what’s going to be the fallout ultimately, you know, we know something has to stick after the seismic events.

[00:20:39] It always does. You know, mad cow disease, whatever, prions in something have to stick. You know, we had companies already tying themselves up for single use, you know, high speed and et cetera, et cetera. They were making the packaging even before we knew anything about it. You know, lots of things go on in the background and, you know, some bits stuck in some bits didn’t say postdebate. You know, some parts will stick. So let’s hope the ventilation is actually beneficial. I’ve got some window surgery and I’m quite like the ventilation systems. They work quite well. It’s a much a pressure experience for everyone. But I don’t want my paper to stick for another day if I can help, you know. You know, that’s basically getting people down, getting it. I mean, that’s probably part of the reason why this 28 per cent of people are leaving the register because they’re stuck in these feet. You know, dentistry is a communicative profession. You’re basically communicating with people. That’s a different thing. You would get in a complaint and not most of the time. And actually, if you stuck behind at 53, especially if the evidence base is not that strong, it’s more of an insurance based issue or a kind of, you know, indemnity based issue rather than, you know, you’re not following the science.

[00:21:43] Basically following we’re running scared of the lawyers and the insurance. You know, that’s always the case, isn’t it? And I think that’s what’s. Yeah. So I’d say that’s probably a pressing issue. Boots on the ground type issue. I certainly want him to associate him. We want to get out. Now, that time is one thing that, you know, this is really sort of fucking us down. So I think there’s some immediate sort of, you know, pressing issue that need to be dealt with as quickly as possible. And then obviously some more medium term issues like, for example, societ the FSA issue and also. You know, you touched on the private nature issue as well. I mean, let’s face it, the private sector is going to grow and grow. As we can see, it may be a bubble. It may be just because the energy demand is so low. You know, I know a lot of people are setting up spot practises and we hear that a lot of daily fees and we speak to other practitioners as well. But, you know, is it the right time? Who knows, really? You know, is it just a bubble? Would you normally take a business decision in such an uncertain period? You know? This is all questions that would, you know, are worth exploring, definitely worth the media having some input on that and maybe giving a fair and balanced viewpoint on what people are making these quite sort big decisions in their lives and things like that.

[00:22:54] So definitely worth inputting there. But that sort of balance between private and I think will change fundamentally. I think, you know, the attitude, the aptitude to do need to undergo NHS care to work in the NHS. I mean, I’m a big fan of the NHS. I favourite you know, I worked in the NHS, were privately, you know, been around the block, really. And I think that, you know, they’ve got to be an NHS system. I fundamentally believe whether it should look like it does. Now, that’s the question, isn’t it? And I think, you know, it will all be kind of touched on. It’s all about the budget, isn’t it? All about the money that’s available. It’s all about how they want to spend it and what the priorities are. But I think that’s also a huge sort of medium to long term issue that needs to be addressed, the nature of the NHS contract, the balance between private and NHS and also how the associates and the principles fit into that.

[00:23:47] I mean, I have to absolutely. I think what’s going on at the moment with the is a response to cultivate is he’s going to have a huge impact on what happens long term with conjunctural effectively what we’ve seen over the last 18 months is the NHS becoming an urgent cancer. It’s the remit of the NHS has been enormously reducing the majority of areas to the majority of patients to something that deals with basic, urgent Dental need and not an exhaustive service that covers the whole population. Not that it ever really managed to achieve that despite its best intentions. So we are now in a really good position to be able to come back and say, look, if we need more money to be able to provide a better service to more people, there is absolutely no doubt about that. And it is really put the squeeze on the funding that’s available to be able to provide that care. And there’s no part of the country that has escaped that at all. So that’s utterly crucial that this is really pushed through at this point.

[00:24:58] Sorry to interrupt more money. I mean, do we seriously believe that more money is going to come into dentistry?

[00:25:04] No, I mean, I, I, I have always been of the opinion that we should have a core NHS service that is funded sufficiently to provide basic service for everyone. As we all know, the government currently only provide sufficient contracting needs to cover just over 50 percent of the population. So even if everybody wanted a Dental something simple, that’s just not the funding. That one thing that’s always really upset me is the fact that we would go to these LDN meetings. We’re talking about commissioning for advanced services and our millions are getting all geared up and we’re doing X, Y and Z to improve the services for things like, you know, especially since downticks. Yeah, 40 miles away, we’ve got patients queuing up outside an access centre, you can’t get a tooth taken out. Not to me. You know, we’ve got a finite pot of money. You need to be careful with how you spend it. Yes, we all want to live in a world where we can commission specialist services for everybody, regardless of their financial position. But until we’ve addressed the fact that we’ve got people walking around with swollen faces, it can’t have their teeth taken out because the access isn’t available.

[00:26:26] We’ve got a fundamental problem with our Dental contract. So I, I, you know, I think we need to readdress it. I think we need to fundamentally shake it up. I think we maybe need to stop worrying about some of the more advanced services and focus on the basic care of the people in our society who don’t have the option. You know, and yeah, there’s been a boom in private Prav, but that’s what people that have an option. There are plenty of places in the country where we don’t have and I, I think it’s I think we need a real shake down of the entire system, which is a controversial view, because I know there are plenty of people out there that will say to me that you absolutely should be able to have your office having retreated the NHS, although I think, well, patients should have an old D.C. meeting about it. And she felt very strongly about it to me.

[00:27:19] If you were the king of the NHS, what would you do? What you know, the budget let’s imagine the budget isn’t increasing. Is that two and a half percent of health care budget or whatever it is, how would you allocate it?

[00:27:33] Well, the king of the NHS and I care. I’m okay. The health secretary. I think you know the OK, so I agree with that. I think that I’m not I know people say I mean, I don’t think I agree with, of course, over so much. I think that it just has to be a defined offer. At the moment. All the risk is on the shoulders of the associates and involvement in the service. So if you’re a get, you have to be the gatekeeper at this present time and all the rest of you all. And and I think that is not and that’s not a favourable position if a tenable position, you know, the government likes to shift because the risk is on you and not them. And, you know, they continue and everything takes over. But but it got to be an NHS offer. It’s something that’s been, you know, a defined NHS. But this is what you can have on the NHS and this is what you can’t I don’t think I would go so much into whether I think it should be core or advanced, but really, it should be this is what you can have and this is what you call them at the moment. It’s a great it’s just a grey area.

[00:28:39] And that really does need to be addressed in have a future commissioning occurs. I think once you’ve addressed that and obviously we’re clever, people will work around whatever whatever is on the table. I agree that, you know, we know that the Dental budget is only suitable for of population. You know, in the last LDC conference, you know, sorry. And he was pressed on that, you know, and she didn’t answer the question, quite frankly, because, you know, it’s a difficult thing to admit that really their only budget in the country is not politically palatable. You know, that’s our position, but that’s what’s going on. So, yeah, I possibly a bit less on everybody, but I don’t know. You know, you have to be clever bit of research. It needs to be done to work out what’s most suitable for people. You know, with that with that part, essentially, I think that, you know, part of the issue with what Hannah said in terms of, you know, there’s lots of people with fat faces and and giving up for, you know, urgent dental care. And we see that it’s urgent that we run UDC. But one of the major issues is workforce, isn’t it? I mean, you’ve got to find the associates that want to do that work.

[00:29:49] Quite frankly, everybody wants to just put biotoxins in people’s teeth and that’s what they aspire to. They don’t want to sit there and do the, you know, take people’s teeth out, you know, the people that run around the block. I think that’s a problem. I think that’s not an ideal situation to be in. But, you know, there’s a lot of people with, you know, a vested interest, the kind of a cohort of new graduates are coming through. And that’s what they want to do, is to beautify teeth and beautify the population, you know, and yeah, there will be a finite amount of work available. Yes. But there are if there’s a fundamental need for, you know, for patients to be seen and people that are disadvantaged, we’ve got to be responsible. And actually, you know, also explain that the need for population have to. And that should be something that people aspire to also, because I think that, you know, if you present it in the right way, there will be people that will aspire to that sort of thing and to really make that difference. So the media should be pushing that as well. You know, make the counternarrative to some of that, some of the ideas

[00:30:48] You talked you talked about risk there. And, you know, we’ve got. What just happened with the court case, that vicarious liability with the associates, how does that make you feel as a principal to me? And how does it make you feel as an associate, Hanna? Because on the face of it, you might think, well, that’s great. I’m no longer responsible. You know, all the blame with the principal. But as someone someone who was I was an associate myself for a few years. The last thing I wanted was my principal sticking his nose into my treatment plans and hassling me about the clinical side. So I expect that would increase if the principal felt like they had the legal weight of the world on their shoulders. How do you feel?

[00:31:34] Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think I can completely see why the vicarious liability element of indemnity is increasingly important. The case we’ve had, particularly since the Brexit, we’ve had quite a lot of overseas dentists leave the UK. Now, I have to say, if I left the UK and was signing it up in Argentina, I would not be answering any letters from the Dental partnership. And so I have say, you know, if I don’t eat or, you know, anything else has happened and I just wasn’t responding, I think it is important the patients do have somewhere that they can still go. And I think having a vicarious liability element to indemnity is increasing. But, you know, it’s only recently this has become apparent. This is going to be a thing. And I think it is important if you were practising that you have that because otherwise you can be stung for some hefty payout. And it’s on you is a practise that, you know, not through your indemnity. So absolutely. I mean, the bidet included a standard when they launch their indemnity products, they included that standard. And at the time I thought, you know, you could do it as a bolt of I think now everybody’s going to be doing the same thing. And that is, you know, it’s just part of the professional environment that we work in. You know, if you’re also associate disabilities, you need as a practise owner a way of managing that situation as an associate. I have no intention of leaving the country. I have no intention of stopping working as a dentist. So I’m still going to need my my indemnity. My indemnity is going to rebuild on as much as it ever was because I cannot foresee a situation unless I did die that my previous practise owner would be asked to fight that battle for me.

[00:33:28] I just can’t foresee it. So as a UK living, no intention of ever leaving associate, it’s made no difference to the way that I view my own indemnity. As you quite rightly pointed out, you could make every difference to the way that I actually work in practise day to day if I have principals who are concerned about the vicarious liability aspect. One thing I love about my job is that I have complete political freedom. I can turn to what I can do my job. I can see the patients that I want to see, the way that I want to see them, sort of the patients I want to see, the patients that want to see me. I treat them the way that I want to treat them. We develop that relationship. We do what’s best for them and me is a professional relationship going forward. And that’s why they see me, is because they like me and they like the way that I do my job. And I feel like that would be seriously compromised if everything that I did was justified all the time. And if that was the way that it became, then actually I probably wouldn’t have any option other than to set myself up. So either to go into a partnership or to start a school to do whatever I needed to do, because I can’t I mean, I am not good at being an employee or an opinionated individual, so I think I’d struggle with it. Having been autonomous for so long, I don’t think I would. I don’t think it would sit well with me.

[00:35:00] Jemmy. Jemmy, how does it make you feel? Thirty associates. Now you have to worry about each of them.

[00:35:05] Yeah. I mean, obviously it can be you know, this case is a very interesting one. I think some of the more cynical, probably a little bit, to be honest. But it was just testing a position, wasn’t it, to see what the outcome would be, much like this associate principal malarky that’s gone on over covid. You know, the fact of the matter is it’s poorly written. And when it was scrutinised, it was torn apart and they couldn’t go any further with it. And this is a test case that they put the wording in the tested that b’day contract. And, you know, some and some of the outcome has been quite damning on that on that particular contract set up. So so. So, yeah, it is concerning. I think that we have an idea we Payman why don’t we give Crown indemnity to NHS practitioners? If you want people to stay in the NHS, if you want to incentivise NHS to work to be done, if you want these cases to be seen, why not give associates and principals Crown Indemnity much like their GP colleagues, so that we can be treating the faces and the other part of the week they could be doing all the beautification, you know, give them some incentive to stay in the NHS? It is a no brainer in my mind. So so, you know, for something, you know, that should be what Dental NHS Dental should strive for. And then if should have a top up privately owned private practise, most of the and most of it by a GP background indemnity.

[00:36:22] They do need to top it off. Quite frankly, it’s not sufficient for most of the work that they do. But why not have the same support? Why not push it out? I think I would feel strongly about that. The other thing is the outcome of this is not the vicarious liability issue because we cannot ensure our selves about this. I think what I think when needed to sort of employ stated the NHMRC taken up the final word on this. If the outcome from the HMRC, it doesn’t make a difference whether it be dental or partnership, have found this waiting to be flawed or etc, etc. and then we all have to suddenly high koppa indemnity in order to cover all sorts of like areas. Ultimately, HMRC are going to determine where their associates are self-employed or employed and that will be the biggest concern for both parties, because then you’re going to have to rewrite the rulebook, you know, between principles and associates. If you think that the covid, you know, widening of the gap, you know, you ain’t seen nothing yet. If everyone starts to have to become employed, it’s fundamentally going to shift. And so, you know, that said, you know, I said, yeah, we’re we’re at a crossroads. You know, lots of things are coming together. I think, you know, it will be interesting to see what comes out the other end. Yeah.

[00:37:32] Can I just I think I absolutely 100 percent agree with the Crown indemnity for the NHS work, and I think it was thrown out in the past. They looked across the border into the GPS and they decided it was too complicated because GP’s were quite separate. NHS and private work that they do, they tend to run an NHS clinic or private clinic. And obviously with dentists, it’s more complicated than that. But I think there was to be honest, I feel like it’s a bit of a copout. It’s too complicated. So we’re not going to bother. And I think absolutely, if we’re doing particularly things like access, we should have Crown indemnity for that. You know, I’ve known people that have been dragged to the GDC because they took a cheap for a patient with a massive face, really neglected dentition, didn’t talk to them about the option of an implant before they took the teeth out as an emergency appointment and then got drawn to the GDC for not informing the patient that an implant could cost that much. You know, we need somebody to to provide that to to give a little bit of support to people so they can quite comfortably go in. And you know what? These guys were great. I’m going to do with this coming back to the whole beach vacation thing. As I said at the beginning, the favourite job I’ve ever had ever was working in the prison. And all I did there all day was twenty four. It was a great job,

[00:38:56] Also good about it.

[00:38:57] And I was helping people who were in genuine agony. You know, prisons are a horrible place to be. You get shipped from place to place to place. And the waiting list is so long for any medical care that you’re just about the top of the list and then they’ll leave you with no notice and then you go back to the bottom of the list. So the people that I was seeing have been in agony for months, years, really neglected dentition. Most people that I saw had drug, alcohol, mental health. Really, really severe problems. And it was as simple as taking the teeth out and then they were not in pain for the first time in two minutes, and that’s a brilliant job. I was working in Clwyd through community at the time, so I had the support of an organisation. You know, it worked well. And because it was the prison, there was a danger money. So I had a slightly inflated pay for the day that I gave. I was a little bit nervous the first few days, but you got used to it. So it was well paid. I was well supported and I was doing something that I genuinely thought it was valuable to a population of people who were genuinely grateful for the help that I was boarding.

[00:40:12] And I would do not all day, every day, rather than put Botox in people, if it were appropriate, even didn’t support it. And that’s the problem. I look at it now, you know, it’s more than 10 years since I did that job. I can guarantee to any prison job going at the moment is on less money with less support than it was when I was doing it. And therefore, it’s you know, it’s not peeling is not going to be drawing in those new graduates. I went in as quite an early dentist. I’ve probably only been working for about two, three years. I’m good at taking teeth out. And the reason I’m taking teeth out is because I spent 18 months working in a prison and there’s no one to help you. And if you refer them to the surgery, the waiting list is six months. So you pretty much figure out how to get it out. I learnt so much from that job, but it comes down to having a job that is appropriately supported and appropriately funded so that people can really just get on with.

[00:41:16] Yeah, I mean, it’s what you will be outside of the Dental, what was your your feeling on prisons overall? I mean, give me that’s a big question. Yeah, but can you give me 10 seconds on it?

[00:41:30] Since I was really nervous about going in first time, to be honest, they were really, really short staffed and they kind of asked me what I know, but I was OK. So I probably went in when I was about twenty five and I, you know, classic pretty Frenchwomen, pretty privileged white girls with nice, nice home and nice, you know, well brought up and didn’t really know what I’m going to meet in that. I was a bit, you know, very, very out of my comfort zone. And the thing that fundamentally struck me is that the majority of the people that have been that are really, really young. And they’re basically just kids that are caught up in stuff that we should never be grew up in and we’d see their rap sheet. So if you were firing somebody out of the hospital, when they’d go off to the hospital, they’d have all of their information, their medical information, all of that criminal information, and goes with the guards that are going with them to the hospital appointment. And you’d skim through it. And you’ve got these guys are in there who are 19 years old and they’re from a rough bit of London. They’ve been in a gang. Their rap sheet is carrying a weapon, carrying drugs, driving without insurance, driving under the influence of drugs, you know, driving the age of 15. Well, if you’re 14, 15 years old and everybody, you know, carries a weapon, pretty much everybody takes drugs.

[00:42:55] Nobody has insurance. Everybody drinks and drives and you get caught doing all the right things, which is completely normal for you. How are you not going to get in trouble? So it really opened my eyes to the absolute disparity in in our society. You know, we have gulfs between different communities in this country. And, you know, it really does show you again then why we have such a see dentistry. You know, you can walk two miles down a road and you will walk past a beautiful private practise of really lovely things. And then you walk two miles on the road and you will be in an area where there is massive deprivation, huge health inequalities, just literally nothing there. But the statistics show that 10 miles away, there’s an indigenous dental practise. It’s full. It’s always been full. It never will have taken any of these people. And we have these issues scattered throughout society with regard to, you know, basically it’s demographics and there are things that we can do to help within dentistry. You know, inevitably, there are things that we can be doing that can make things better for some people. But, you know, it’s I think everybody needs to go and work in these places. They need to work in acceptance or in a prison or in a homeless centre or or something just to give them a little bit of an idea as to what our situation is like in this country.

[00:44:31] Look, it’s a it’s a feature of the UK that we’ve got the very best of staff and the very worst and the middle sort of not so well serviced, you know, we have the best universities in the world and then we’ve got those who never make it to university. We’ve got the best restaurants in the world and then we’ve got some pretty crappy food places. And then, you know, how do you address that? You tax people more and then again and again and again, people vote not to have that. You know, this division Jimmi division, I’m reading your manifesto. Anything to mend the cracks in our profession. I can do that in the end. That’s going to take ideas. I mean, you know, you said Crown Indemnity. That’s going to cost money, right. So where’s that money going to come from? From patient care, for instance. It’s always a bit more complicated, isn’t it, than you think. But tell me some of the things you’ve done in your LTC job where you feel like you’ve done you know, you said you you want to you want to do on the national level what you’ve been doing on a local level. There were some clues. How are you going to try and mend all this?

[00:45:45] We hit the nail on the head of funding the you in terms of, you know, ultimately, you know, I’ve written business cases before for the NHS, managed to get funding into the region, you know, for projects, for dentistry, you know, fighting in the corner to sort of I think we want to want to manage this fundamentally. We need if they were taking a huge clawback, huge amount of clawback, you know, money. And I think that, you know, staggering about 19 million pounds don’t quote me on that bit of something similar to that kind of figure and year on year to be getting that money back. So in our region, I think they were I think there were eight million short or something like that in our region. And we managed to sort of negotiate, not meet personally. But, you know, by putting pressure and by saying that we need these services and working with the NHS, really working with the infrastructure, managed to get three million pounds back, you know, from from from that amount. So to actually redistribute back into our increased access in the region. So I do I’m a way to do it, to actually make a business case, really crunch those numbers and actually explain the fact that it’s actually not it’s a false economy sometimes to save money.

[00:46:52] And actually you’ve got to spend the money to save a bit money in the long term. So you’re right. If you just say we want to bang the drum and bang the table and say we want grant indemnity, that’s going to go in one ear and out the other. But if you say, look, we want indemnity because it’s costing the NHS this much money to basically defend these cases and, you know, apologise to these patients, this much manpower is being wasted trawling through, you know, hours and hours and hours of complaints that, you know, it’s probably worth your while just to cover up a little bit, just throw these things out. I mean, we saw it recently with the complaints. I think there’s a form that we send out. Again, don’t quote me on the name Chayo something or other Cayo on AIDS or something. And, you know, during the pandemic period, they basically told us not to send them. And I thought that’s ah, you know, declaration of all the complaints we’ve had that you, you know, doing Pandemic said don’t bother us anything, you know, and I know they don’t have the manpower to actually look through that plethora of stuff that’s pouring through as a result of it, you know, so there are means and ways to make an argument.

[00:47:51] I think that’s probably what I’ve been doing through the LDC and the LDN because about the funding as well over the years, you know, asking us what do you want to spend the excess money on and off? And there’ll be a case where, you know, they say we’ve got this much money, there’s 100000 pounds or something like that. If we don’t spend it in the next month, it’ll go and we’ll never see again. So then you’d have to think of a business case very quickly to spend. They’ll say, you know, maybe spread it out there, peer review, CPD, you know, a project in a care home, etc, etc.. So, you know, I think, you know, I think that’s the approach that you would need to take in this situation. And I’m sure the media well versed on, you know, you know, these negotiations. But definitely that would be the way that it would mend the cracks. You’d have to you’d have to have quite a compelling argument to actually, you know, attempt to attempt to loosen the purse strings, I think.

[00:48:43] Guys, you know, we were discussing before I started recording that there’s not massive engagement with this media process and, you know, the were voter out there that had come out and vote that the members don’t come out and vote for it as it is to younger members of the profession. And I mean, listening to you guys and you’re so well versed on these issues, you know, from from the outside, you’ve got to remember, you know, just just the acronyms are confusing. You know, the for you guys, you’re so in it. How are you going to engage the younger generation? Being I know, I know you are saying you’re no spring chicken, but you’re certainly not at the end of your careers. How are we going to do that? It’s important and I’m guilty of it myself. I’ve never voted in a in a PTA election. I have voted that. But generally with the election, I’ve never thought to vote. But then I thought about it and I thought, you know, I’ve been a critic of the PTA enough. Yeah, it’s a vocal critic sometimes and sometimes on this platform, sometimes on social media particularly. I wasn’t very happy with their communication strategy during covid. But what’s the point of being a critic of it if you don’t even vote, let alone stand like you guys do? What are the ideas for engaging the professional?

[00:50:14] So my my fundamental issue with. With the way that sports represented the way that the communications run is that you’re not going to engage with something if it doesn’t look like you. You know, you can’t get people to get excited about a conversation a bunch of people are having, if you cannot see yourself ever being involved in that conversation and the way that you need to see that is because you can see people like you who share your vision and share your experiences, who are involved in that conversation, and they are engaged with it, you know, so with myself or with Jemmy, you know, if we were then part of that conversation. We do have people younger than even myself on the pack ready for this one. But it is a case of having those people that having that conversation in a forum that other people can see, the other people that can potentially engage with, you know, doing things like this, your viewers who normally potentially wouldn’t be involved in everyday stuff, who wouldn’t normally be interested me something. Oh, actually, you know what they’re talking about something that does annoy me. Maybe I’ll read what the media are doing about it. You know, having this conversation, this debate, you will then increase interest. And that’s what we need to do. You just need to increase the interest and then make the information readily available and then it’s there. If somebody is actually to know, I am a bit interested. I would like to know a little bit more about that as long as it’s readily accessible. It looks like you then it’s something you’ll get involved in.

[00:51:59] And I take issue with it looks like you a little bit. Yeah. Because I of course understand what you mean. Of course I understand that. But, you know, not much of the country looks like Boris Johnson, but he managed he he he managed to pull it off. Right. He might pull it off in a big way. OK, you know, there was a little this disorganise and all of that. But, you know, you don’t necessarily have to look like the person you’re voting for. Jemmy, sorry.

[00:52:30] Yeah, I mean, I agree. I mean, obviously reaching out to, you know, people like yourself, you know, ultimately you’ve got a big reach. There are other people in the Dental industry who have a big reach. And you can imagine that most of your audience is the younger end of the spectrum, people engaging in social media. We see how hot all of these forums are. We don’t see any of this stuff really pouring into the forums. And I think if people really understood that, you know, the gravitas of the conversations are being had at that level, you know, every facet of their working life to a certain extent is going to be influenced, whether they’re private or energy to a certain extent, by some of the decisions made in those boardrooms. So I think you’re only going to get some proportion of people that are going to be fundamentally interested in the politics side of it. They are. They just buy why it that way. But I think if the general populace or the younger a younger colleague, if they were basically aware of the mechanics and the fact that those mechanics affect their day to day, when the patient sits in the mouth with the head back and open their mouth and what their work experience is like, that kind of talking about leaving prison at work.

[00:53:30] But basically it’s just not feasible anymore. It’s not feasible because of some of the decisions that maybe could be influenced in that boardroom. So, you know, if you really want to make that change and you’ve got to be engaged in the process, I think also we have a very niche market. You know, sometimes we just get absorbed in ourselves. But, you know, we’re a tiny market, you know, really. And so these decisions can be quite close to home. You know, we’re not the government. It’s not like, you know, voting in a general election. You know, your vote yes will have an effect. But he has to go through layers and layers and layers of pogson, you know, to have any you probably won’t see the ramifications of your vote, you know, immediately. But in dentistry, it’s a pretty niche. You know, I think that you if you actually put your vote in, I think you will see some effect that will affect you quite quickly.

[00:54:20] You know,

[00:54:21] Having cesta these elections before I can tell you, it comes down to a handful. So five people watch this tomorrow and vote. That will change the outcome of the election, though, right? Yeah. So the numbers are tiny and it is just about you don’t have to do it yourself. You don’t have to want to be on the pack. You don’t want to have to go to the ABC. You don’t want to. Yeah, it’s costumey. Says you just need to have an awareness of the fact that these things do impact you. And regardless of where you’re from, what you do, where you are in your career, what your aspirations are, having your vote is your fundamental rights. To influence the way that things are going to turn out, so my absolute message would be if you were a member, you will have had the stuff through the post with everybody statements in it. If you’ve thrown out, you will still be able to read the news on the website and then you need to find somebody that shares your values. You can fight your corner if you don’t want to do it yourself, invite them.

[00:55:26] Your PDA to org slash elections is where you can find that. Um. Well, it’s, I think it’s been really fascinating. Really has. And you know, I wish we had others on here as well, but it was very short notice for most. And I want to thank you guys for for coming on and giving that fresh sort of angle on what could be the future for our profession and for the younger audiences that we were talking about. And then just generally, I mean, the actually before we close it down, let’s talk about, you know, your purely private Narnia. All right. Yeah. Jimi, I know you’ve got all sorts of private and NHS things going on with these new organisations that have come along during covid the baptism of those other independent groups. Do you think I mean, I thought there was there was a good reason for those to come along, but trying to sort of do it in six weeks was taken 60 years or 100 years of the b’day. You know, it’s not going to happen. So are we going to get a more inclusive, private focussed angle from the media or is the media, not the organisation? And and these other organisations should grow and take that space?

[00:56:53] I think I think the media does a huge amount behind closed doors for everybody. And I think people that are vocal critics of the media, I mean, we often find people that are vocally critical of the media aren’t members, you know, so they don’t know what’s going on. And I think one of the biggest issues is that it does not blow its own trumpet anywhere near enough. And if we went back 15 years and we had lived the last 15 years without the constant negotiations of the media, with all of the various powers that be and all of the influence that it has and all the good that it’s done, you know, yeah, we’ve got a terrible contract. But can you imagine how awful it would be if the BDA didn’t exist? That’s that’s the issue. And you’ve got these new organisations who are saying, well, we need this, we need this, we need this now. Well, yeah, but we tried to do that already. And these are the 10 years worth the various battles that have been fought on various fronts to achieve this. And we’ve realised that, you know, things are more complicated than they initially appear. And I think this is the is very easy as an outsider to go, well, they’re just not doing the job properly. They’re just not doing it well enough with that because you don’t know each single one of those staff members is doing day in, day out in their full time job to protect us as a profession because they don’t tell you unless you ask. But, yeah, I mean, you can rest assured without the work that the BDI does, the profession would not be in the place that it is right now.

[00:58:32] It would be significantly worse off. And I know that sometimes seems hard to believe. And we can all have a bit of a woe is me moment about how terrible things are. But trust me, it would be worse. I’ve seen some of the bullets that have been dodged because of the work of the work that goes on at the V.A. and we need to be grateful to those colleagues. And it’s not necessarily the pack. It’s the staff that are incredibly hard working. A lot of the positions that are held within the media, the craft committees, you know, they don’t pay for these jobs. You know, everybody’s probably heard of Charlotte Waite’s, who’s the chair of the Community Centre Services Committee, and she’s regularly in parliament and she’s doing all sorts of things, promoting dentistry for marginalised groups like Community. She’s paid to do that job. The PTA support her as a professional to be able to make these big, big impacts on the profession. And, you know, a lot of the people that are involved in the PTA do it voluntarily. They do it because they love the profession and they are doing a good job. It just doesn’t always necessarily publicly appear to be that way. I’d like to help them improve their public image, because I know that they’re doing great job, so I read some of the stuff that’s going on is amazing to me.

[01:00:02] I kind of had to be honest. You know, the media has to be everything to everyone, really. To be honest, it is representing the whole profession. So, I mean, Simon is not going to mind me saying I’m a doctor who is my sister, my oldest sister, not going to mind meeting me, saying, you know, during the open period, I think there was a lot of a lot of people that felt quite helpless, a lot of Dental helpless. Alfer. And quite sort of in the way that we’re wired. And I think that we felt quite helpless, you know, people shouting or practises or telling us we can do this or that. We might send you to a Nightingale hospital, etc., etc.. And as you said, you know, we. And that’s a natural reaction, isn’t it? You band together. We need to form some kind of power base. And so all of these organisations pop up to come for you know, some of it comes from a sort of business element, from a monetary element. I think it’s important to keep those ones out. And a lot of them have got some good, you know, you know, some good contribution to make. So I don’t think you can immediately say they’re sort of not relevant in the space, but I think fundamentally happened because of that sort of crisis situation and people felt underrepresented.

[01:01:15] And I think that social media gives a lot of people and I a chance to be a keyboard warrior. You see a lot of the same people popping up on social media, you know, voicing their opinions. And then when you have a look at something like Valpak or you look fat in the Aldiss and, you know, the actual established infrastructure, these people are nowhere to be seen. So it’s very easy to say in front of a, you know, in front of the keyboard and just punch away your opinion and you see in all spheres of life then you. But actually, you know, sometimes I kind of say you don’t have to blow by blow your own trumpet. You’ve got to be judged on your results. And actually, you know, you don’t have to sit there screaming. You can just be judged on your results and people should just judge them on the results. If you don’t think the results are good enough, then be a vocal critic, but really do sort of understand that it’s quite a large infrastructure and there’s a lot of cogs in the machine.

[01:02:07] You know, the there’s one thing getting involved and just voting, whole other thing standing and getting involved with all of these, I mean, and both of you, you know, Jimi, you’ve got is it four or five practises? You could be focussing on your next four or five practises. But, you know, you’re spending your time in these committees. And Hannah, I’m sure you can find many things to do as well in your spare time. So, you know, the degree of service is admirable. I think I think we should point out there are other candidates, apart from Hannah and Jim, there are seven other candidates, Marc Newsome, Sarah Campbell and Jillian Cottam atop the car, Marion English as the category, and Chris Morris, the other candidates for completeness. I think that that we should say that it’s been lovely having you guys and it’s really piqued my interest. And I say that for it and certainly try and have more on this on this platform. And I wish you both the very best and really lovely to see to see people like you guys so engaged in the process. Thanks a lot for taking the time to discuss.

[01:03:19] Can I just ask one really quickly before we go, though? The BDA runs elections every three years for GBC Aldergrove Committee so that the country councils JPC, which is a general dentist, can use Dental services. If you in any way even vaguely interested in getting involved, just put yourself forward because we struggle to get people wanting to just do it. So you don’t feel like you’re not experienced enough or you’ve not got the right background or you don’t know the right people. Just put your name forward because that is the only way that you’re going to get involved in it and you would be welcomed with open arms, trust me.

[01:03:57] Paula, any closing comments for you, Jemmy,

[01:04:01] What you’re saying, just engage with the process? I think that’s the key. Just to gauge, you know, for the sake of you’ve only got a couple of days now to get your votes. And I think you should really, you know, get on the computer, punch, punch it in, and then basically have a look at the statements and get a vote and just get something in and hopefully Payman your supporters over the years, because I’m sure this will crop up again and again. It has been over many years. You can get more even if it’s just a win at this time. And we can engage on the next you know, the next election, for example. At least you’re starting the process.

[01:04:30] Yeah, absolutely. All right, guys. Well, thanks a lot for taking the time and good luck to both of you. Voting ends on the 30th at noon. It is opposed to vote. You would have been sent your your postal ballot at wherever you could receive your BTG. Thanks. Thanks a lot for taking the time.

[01:04:50] Thank you. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:00:00] One VTE lecturer called me a cowboy because I turned up in a fancy car that I’d managed to pay for by doing day trading in the stock market in the 4th and 5th, it used to bunk lectures and go do day trading. And then he called me a cowboy and I was like, why? And that was the thing that really annoyed me was why should I hide success? Why? What’s the reason? Or if you want it, you don’t need to hide it. And it took me a long time to get that into my head. And I think that’s what you touched on before. To me, if you’re successful and you worked for it and if you like X, Y, Z, there’s no harm in having what you want and being happy for yourself. I think rewarding yourself and setting goals are really, really important, especially in the profession that we’re in.

[00:00:53] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your host, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:11] It’s my pleasure to welcome one of dentistry, sort of more prominent characters that have been around Nilus Palmer, who kind of for me, I remember UNILAG coming onto the scene around 10 years ago or something. And I mean, you’ve become a highly accomplished implant surgeon now. But back then, I mean, I know you were doing implants, but you were kind of famous for being famous back then. It was an interesting thing that you started and really turned on its head. The thing that I obviously visit a lot of them to see in order to talk to a lot of dentists turned on its head. That thing that you see with dentists where, you know, he’s driving a Ford to work. But but. Whispers You know, I’ve got a nice car home or something. You turn that completely on its head, not only not hiding the nice car from the staff, but telling the whole world about it. Lovely to have you on. But so this podcast generally starts with where were you born? Why did you become a dentist? All of that

[00:02:14] High. I pay high Prav. Thanks for having me on. I’ve seen this advertised for you guys. I’ve been doing it for a really long time. It’s a great original idea. So I’m really pleased I’ve made the cut to be asked to be on the famous podcast, you know. So I was born in Essex in South L.A. and I never wanted to become a dentist, as you guys have. I know you’ve met my dad, Prav, I think you might have and maybe my dad did. He is a dentist, an orthodontist, general dentist, studied in India and then came over here to this country many, many moons ago. And I had a paper round when I was, I think, 13, 14. And I see a Saturday morning paper around. And I wanted to become a detective because he’s such a Miami vice. And Don Johnson had a white Ferrari and he used to wear suits and things. And I thought, you know, that’s a bit of me. I’d like to do that. And then I went from that to watching E.R. and I wanted to be like Benton, the cardiothoracic surgeon. I wanted to be a doctor because he was really cool. People listen to him. And I used to get all the girls as well. So you can see my priorities were pretty clear when I was young guys.

[00:03:29] Exactly what do you what are you watching right now? But later are

[00:03:38] So my dad said to me and my mother wasn’t happy with me doing a paper and she said, you know, my son will get kidnapped or whatever is quite dramatic to the Indian series that mothers watch. So my dad was like, look, I’ll give you a job in the Dental practise. You can be like the odd job kid. I was getting like three pound fifty for Pat Brown and he would give me five pounds to work on Saturday morning. Plus we started at nine and finished that one. Plus I would get driven to the practise and driven home. I didn’t have to walk around in the rain to win win, so I started out being the shed boy. I remember Dad being an orthodontist used to keep loads of study models and he had a huge shed at the back of the practise. And my job for like the first six months was to organise all these models. And you had like spiders and you had these moths and all this stuff in the shed. And I went from that to being the tea boy to developing the x rays in the darkroom, where I’m sure probably carcinogenic material into my eyes. And then I used to work on reception. I was like the main receptionist on the Saturday, did a bit of nursing, wasn’t very good at nursing. And then it was through that that I thought maybe this is the profession for me. So it was a slow burner. But then once I decided to do it and that was it, I was pretty much committed.

[00:04:53] How old were you?

[00:04:56] Well, back then, teenager, 13, 14, minimum wage.

[00:05:03] And then you went to London Hospital to study?

[00:05:07] Yeah. So my my pathway was always very difficult. So I wasn’t very bright at school. I was never in the top set of anything then. It was real hard to even be allowed to apply for dentistry. I didn’t get any offers. Nothing took my levels, got the bare minimum and then got in through clearing to the London and I got declined from every other university it was. And ironically, I’ve got a degree from every university that declined me in the beginning. I got declined from everyone

[00:05:37] I didn’t feel we had. I mean, I don’t mean being rejected. I mean being a small town guy from South End and turning up in London. Did you know London quite well at that point?

[00:05:47] Oh, no, no, no. I remember going on the tube and being really terrified of being being like an Asian kid. You had fairly sheltered upbringing, right? You’d be home at a certain time. You could go out on the weekends, but, you know, come like ten, eleven. Your mum was finding you. I mean, my mum would stay up. Until I came back home, so coming to London was a real shock, but I really enjoyed university, I think it was great. What a good bunch of friends. I’m still very close with and I think it was a big, big turning point. Gave me a lot of confidence actually getting into university.

[00:06:20] So did you go nuts when you went to uni having that sort of I think your upbringing was probably similar to mine. You know, there’s that protective Indian instinct of your parents. You said obviously your mom didn’t want you to go in the paper because my kidnap, you get an automatic. And then when you had your freedom, did you go nuts at uni?

[00:06:40] No, not really. I was always I’ve always been quite a calculated individual. And I would never it’s very rare that I mean, we’ve got we guys have been out together. We hold it together. I don’t think you’ve ever seen me exceptionally intoxicated. So I’m always a very calculated individual. I mean, I had fun. Don’t get me wrong, but never went to crazy.

[00:07:00] So as a Dental student, did you find that you were then good and you know, you said you weren’t the top kid in your class as a as a as a student, as a Dental student. Did you pick it up or not yet?

[00:07:14] You know, I found the practical stuff easy. Practically the work with the hands was easy. I could see something once and it wasn’t a problem. The academic side. I had to work hard. I would say I was working harder than my peers to get the same results. I don’t think I excelled, but I think I did enough to go under the radar. Basically, that was my thing. Just getting get the degree, get out. And and that’s the advice I give to all the young Dental is listening is you don’t need to be the best of the best. You just need to get in. I get out, get that beats nobody cares if you go first or on honours or a gold medal or whatever. I mean well done if you do. But I don’t think it has any impact in your long term career.

[00:07:55] I mean, you’re quite right. Some of the some of the guys we’ve spoken to in a bathroom is right. He said he wasn’t great and Dental School and Darwiche that he was almost almost didn’t get through Dental schooling. So it sounds like all of you cats become in-plant guys, pretty much all competition. That’s what it is,

[00:08:17] A hole whole other way.

[00:08:19] Like you had Milada New Years.

[00:08:20] Ah, yes, I did. Yes, I did.

[00:08:23] And you were close then as well.

[00:08:25] You know, Millette and I weren’t that close at university. He was it wasn’t around a lot because he was deejaying and emceeing and he’d come in and do this bit and then he disappeared. So socially he wasn’t there. He he was well known for being the Joker. He was well known for being the guy. He dressed up as Aleg a lot and came to like events and stuff. And and then he’s probably got to kill me. And then I we we became very close when a good friend of our John Paul, who also qualified with us, was getting married in Malta and then Milan and I went together with a room and all that sort of stuff. And then we just got along really well. And then since then, I’d say he’s one of my closest friends, then closest, closest friend.

[00:09:07] So did you start thinking at that point planning out what kind of career you were going to have? I mean, we’ve spoken to other people who have parents who are dentists and, you know, how much of an advantage that is when you’ve got someone to go to with a question, for instance, just from that very basic position. But, you know, what were you thinking back then when you think you’re going to take over your dad’s place? Were you thinking you’re going to do something different?

[00:09:31] Implant’s so my thinking was I would qualify. I’ll take over Dad’s place. I would work three days a week. I would play tennis and golf and go skiing, have an easy life. I would drive a Mercedes. Being Indian, I wanted a Mercedes and that would be it. That would be me done. And but I never intended to do any postgraduate. Never, never intended because I didn’t like being examined. I didn’t enjoy the university sort of regulated learning that we had to have, you know, because I’d question everything and they’d say, do X and Y and I’ll say, why? Why don’t we just do X, Y, Z? It’s easier, it’s quicker, it’s smarter. And I always had a financial edge. I would always say, why are we doing this? How much are we charging for this? How would we do this? What’s the hourly rate? I was the one who was asking in the lectures. So if I do this procedure, what kind of hourly rate should I be charging? What do I need? The lecturers used to look at me like I was a nut case on at VTI. I remember one VTE lecturer called me a cowboy because I turned up in a fancy car that I’d managed to pay for by doing day trading in the stock market in the fourth and fifth. It used to bunk lectures and go do day trading. And then he called me a cowboy and I was like, why? And that was the thing that really annoyed me was why should I hide success? Why? What’s the reason for? If you want it, you don’t need to hide it. And it took me a long time to get that into my head. And I think that’s what you touched on before to me. If you’re successful and you worked for it and if you like X, Y, Z, there’s no harm in having what you want and being happy for yourself. I think rewarding yourself and setting goals are really, really important, especially in the profession that we’re in. What was what was the

[00:11:20] First and second of that?

[00:11:23] So I qualified and I had about 40 grand. And then I worked as a vet for six months and I saved up about 50 K being a complete moron, I thought, I’m going to buy a Porsche 911 is what you do. So I walked into the Porsche dealership and I and I look I mean, I look quite young, maybe not anymore, but back then I looked like a kid. I walked into a Porsche sent to East London. And I remember the sales guy called Brian Jones. I still talk to now and I’m poking around the 9/11. And then you had, like, you know, the little paper brochure of the cars and you’d looked at it and you’d highlighted what you want and you’d read and you knew every option. And I walked in and he said, Can I help you, young man? Is your father with you? And I was like, no, I’d like to buy Porche. And he looked at me and he goes, What do you do? And I said, Oh, I just recently qualified as a dentist is I step into my office and talk to them. And and I remember I turned up everyone in VTE was turning up in three or six and all that sort of stuff. And I used to rock up in the nine eleven and being a complete douchebag, I used to park it right out the front of the lecture theatre because I thought I was a clever guy. And that’s when I understood that if you are successful Asian guy as well, let’s not beat around the bush. You will get flak for it. And I’ve been used to that ever since. Ever since I’ve been used to it.

[00:12:48] So interesting. We’ll get back onto that because, you know, we’ll talk about social and all of that. When did it switch from being, you know, the guy who used to do just enough to get through to the guy who’s done more degrees than Brixham? I mean, it’s like you’re constantly getting a degree and, you know, always looking for excellence. And when did that switch happen?

[00:13:16] I tell you what happened was I did my VTE. I find it hard to get a spot because my dad was a vet trainer and he’d stopped being a vet, trying to. But all the other trainers around Essex knew him and none of them wanted me because I thought I’d be a bit of a problem. If your father’s a vet trainer, they couldn’t pull the wool over my eyes and I got a vet position and I wasn’t very good at taking time. I mean, I couldn’t take teeth out to save my life. So on a Saturday morning, I used to work for my dad and he would book in the most horrendous teeth Tiko. And I’d be hacking away, trying to get these to about half an hour. Forty five minutes now, you know what it’s like. And my dad would walk in after about an hour with some old cria from my 1987 flick The Tooth Out and be like, oh they don’t teach you properly anymore and then walk out. And it really used to piss me off not because he he said that what I could do it. So I was like, right, I’m going to Max Fox job. I need to a job for a year. I need to learn how to take teeth out because this is ridiculous. And I applied for my local district hospital and I didn’t get in and I was really surprised I didn’t get in. But I managed to get into the Kings College six month rotation programme, which was like six months of surgery and then six months of restorative. And then I worked with Richard Porter and I was Martin Kelleher’s.

[00:14:43] And at the end of the six months with Martin Kealoha, Mr Kaye, who was the best guy ever? Best. Best, the two mentors I have, mentors I’ve always had with my father. And after the six month rotation, he sits down and does the interview. And people used to crap themselves because you’d sit down and he’d say, what do you want to do? And somebody says, I’d like to end the downticks. And he’d say, No, you can’t. You can’t do up. Sorry, just become a general dentist. Or somebody would say, I want to be president. He’d say, no, you don’t have the talent for that. I’m very sorry. You can’t do it. Just don’t even bother. So I sat down and I was like, he’s like, what do you want to do now? It’s not all going to get Jack here. It’s I was like, I would like to go into dental implants. And he said to me, good, because I think you need to specialise and do some postgraduate, your your you have a good set of hands. OK, fine. So I phoned up these two men and I was too late to get in to the Eastman post graduate programme. They only offered me a masters in prosthetics for a year. So dentures for a year, like the least sexy part of dentistry for a whole year in the property, not the CPD and the hard core. And multicolour, my dad were like, you know, just do it. You don’t have a job after this. You might as well just get on with it. So I went on and I did that and it was the best thing I ever did.

[00:15:58] What was that? Was it like a full time programme? Hello?

[00:16:02] Yes. So we yes. Basically, they they call it the The Widowmaker because you’re there seven days a week. You don’t work. You never leave. I sleep in the lab and all sorts of crazy stuff there. Seven days a week. You see patients you would have like a ham journal club. Right. And you’d have like seven PM journal club. Then you’d have to do a master’s thesis at the same time. It was the most hardcore year I’ve ever had. But you learn so much from it, like so, so much.

[00:16:33] But you rose to it didn’t it didn’t break you you like it made you you decided that’s what you like now. Education.

[00:16:40] Yeah. Yeah. So for me it was a question of I’ve decided to do it and my dad’s famous quote was like, just get on with it, just do it, stop procrastinating, just do it, don’t complain. Why are you complaining? Just do it. Get on with it. Don’t say to me you’ve got so much work to do, you’ve got so many lectures to read or whatever he goes by the time you’ve complained, you could have actually started doing it. So that was it. Just gone with it. Head down, carry on. And that’s such a fantastic team, these men. And unfortunately, a lot of the consultants and people who we worked with have now retired. But yeah, it was a real special place. I really, really enjoyed my time there. I wouldn’t want to do it again at this stage of my life. But it was it was impressive. And once I did that, I applied for the machine implants that guys now guys only took four people every two years and they must have had like a thousand applicants or two thousand applicants. The reason why it was so popular this was the Masters and Implant Dentistry guys was they provided all the patients.

[00:17:43] So you turned up you had restorative cases, employment cases, not like the implant causes, which we run now where dentists have to bring their own patients. You know, they have to ferry them over here. It’s really hard to get those cases here. It’s all paid for by the trust. So you additional implant patients, you know, so, so good. So I didn’t get into that programme. I go in because somebody flunked it. Somebody couldn’t get the visa to come over or somebody comes the phone me and said, look, you’re the first person on the list. Do you want to do this degree? So I was like, oh, God, I’ve just done one master’s. Am I going to go and do another master’s straight after? I must be insane. So again, with advice from everyone else, I will just do it as a two year part time programme. So I just jumped in and did it and that kind of made my life. If I wasn’t doing implant work, I wouldn’t be where I was today. No chance in hell, never.

[00:18:36] So we’ve had the Paul Palmer on the podcast. He teaches on that, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he says it’s not running anymore. That’s a damn shame because several of you guys I know Zachy, too, came from that programme. But so what would you say to a youngster who wants to get into implants? Would you now say MASC or would you say go find some courses, long courses, short courses?

[00:19:06] It’s it’s a hard one, isn’t it? What I’d say is, where are you in your career path? Can you do surgical? Can you take teeth out? If you can take teeth out, then consider implant work. If you can’t if you got that whole in your repertoire, you need to plug it restrictively. Are you competent? And then it’s a question of doing a course and then finding a mentor the mouthes that are out there. I don’t have enough experience of them to comment on whether or not they’re good or whether or not they’re bad. But I know that there’s nothing as good as the guys programme anymore. I mean, you have people getting messages from certain universities only doing like five implants or something, and we must have done twenty, thirty loads. But you need a good mentor. So some of the guys who I work with now did my course mind. And of course I still mentor them. And it’s nice to see that they’ve progressed. But he’s taken three, four, five years. So it’s a really slow burn. But you have to be all it. You can’t be doing implants and then also be doing this and that. And that implant is the one where you just need to dive in and really go gung ho into it. It’s it’s a hard discipline, but the rewards are very good because there’s not enough dentistry. And to me, to any youngster, I wish I would only be a youngster to any like young younger dentist. And this is from the financial side, if you want to learn, if you can open up a shop, right, let’s say you open up a shop and the shop next to you is selling coke and the shop on the other side is selling Coke.

[00:20:35] Why are you going to open up a shop selling coke? Only going to do is be a price war. You’re going to have to sell the cheapest Coke Pakhtun if you are a dentist. Why are you learning Invisalign, Botox, lip filler composite restorations when every other dentist is doing the same thing? Why don’t you offer a different service? So who’s not offering anything? And it’s hard to come by nowadays and implants. So if you differentiate yourself from the early days, your market share by default would be bigger. Because if you’re in a town and there’s 10 dentists incompetence in one dentist implants, guess who’s going to be the busiest guy? And then you can almost set his price, right? So that’s what I would say is the speciality that is the least service in your area. And then go and implants, I think, is is an amazingly rewarding area of dentistry to do it. And I would like more youngsters. And I think definitely we need more women in dental implant surgery because those even women and Implant Dentistry Foundation and we had a female president of the Aidi. And I think it would be great to have some more diversity in implant industry. I’m sick of going to implant conferences and just seeing bald heads in the audience and present company excepted. Is this all you get is another go

[00:21:56] And this your room? Is your practise now limited to implant dentistry? Hello. Do you do all the bits and pieces?

[00:22:03] I’m I’m getting there very limited. So I have a few other bits and pieces that I like to do. Just because I’ve had training in various stages, about 80 percent of my work is implants. I’m looking for another dentist, fully private to work with me to just do the basic restorative stuff so I can just do the the surgery. Basically, that’s the plan at the moment.

[00:22:25] And then on the implant side of things, are you sort of a same day kind of guy? I hear that this is like quite a big trend or, you know, some dentists to believe in that philosophy and then some dentists or surgeons who sort of believe more on a on sort of the longer sort of delayed loading protocol. What would you say to that?

[00:22:46] It depends upon the case, depends on the patient. I mean, to put a patient through a same DLT is quite an ordeal. They’re pretty messed up by the end of it. I know on on the shows and everything, they get their little glass of champagne and they are trying to drink it. It’s it’s not it’s not all roses. Right, is you need a pretty hard patient for my default is delayed. But now with the implants that are getting better and better, do we have an onsite lab as well? We do do the same that it it’s also patients needing to pay for it. Well, because it does jack up the cost a fair amount. And if we get patients who are paid DONTAE compromised, etc., sometimes it’s just not we’ve been there, have been burned by it. You pick your battles, you know, so some people, you do it and some people you don’t. It is variable. But I’m I’m open to anything.

[00:23:34] But it’s funny. Paul Thomas said exactly the same thing. All depends on the patient.

[00:23:40] Depends on the patient, and I think when you have those patients, you keep for life. As for large implant patients, the ones you do one, two or two to three pretty, they can go elsewhere, etc. But the four large cases, you keep them for very, very long time. So they’re sussing you out. And I also them out.

[00:23:59] Now, what would you say is what does it take to be a great implant surgeon

[00:24:05] Need to suture properly? That’s the one thing we struggle to teach is how to suture properly. And I’ve worked with Specialist Periodontist. I’ve worked with Allsorts, and they couldn’t suture properly. You’ve got to practise, practise, practise. Aside from that, it’s having a good restorative background, having good surgical skills and just being competent. Planning things properly and having really good patient communication is the main thing which is so hard to teach. Right? Talking well to a patient and getting a patient on the side who’s right. Right. And you said that, you know, I just don’t care what you do here. I just care how you make them feel. Very true. And we’ve all seen work where we’ve thought, oh my God, that work looks so crap. And they put it on Instagram and you think, oh, my God, these teeth look horrendous, but the patients love it. Why do they love it? Because they love the dentist and the dentist giving them what they want. So it’s the whole experience. And for me, it’s always just sussing them out of the consultation process. And do you exude confidence and do they believe that you can give them what they want? And that’s the key thing, which is so hard to teach. Some people just have it and some people don’t know

[00:25:19] What’s what’s the outlook. Maybe forgive me for not knowing the answer to this question yet, but we’ll see what’s the pathway? I guess you start with maybe a couple of, like, single lower tooth, then eventually an A.. And the soft tissue situation, when does it get to grafting sinus lift for all and for what’s the other one? The long one that goes in the. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Yeah.

[00:25:49] Yes, zygomatic Østergaard, is there a

[00:25:51] Pathway set in that sense? I mean, like how far how far along are you on that path?

[00:25:57] I think we’re all still learning. I was on a surgical crout soft tissue grafting course on Friday with Hatam. I think you’re always learning. You know what I really like. And my niece is a.. Cosmetic implant, doing single central incisors, doing a few teeth. So getting it to look so that people can’t tell it’s a fake, too. That’s where I get my soft

[00:26:20] Tissue around that. The fall of the eye.

[00:26:24] Exactly. So my thinking is putting a picture up on screen and saying to dentists, which one is the implant? And if some of them get it wrong, then is very real. I’m on cloud nine. Right. I’m loving life. Right. My ego goes through the roof. But the four large cases I like because it’s proper surgery and there’s lots of blood and the nurses like it’s a big challenge to the patient, but the pathway is so variable. I mean, most upper molars that you do usually need an internal sinuses or L.A. cases. In my opinion, most of them will need some form of guided bone generation. So you can get the simple primally cases where you just put the implant in and there’s nothing else to do. But a lot of times they need a bit of extra work, an extra bit of Build-Up, or they need sedation or they want to one or they need to do this. We need to whip out wisdom tooth at the same time is you don’t always get that one in that one implant case, you say I need this one lower molar tooth sorted and then that’s it. You don’t get those very often,

[00:27:22] You know, about the practise. Well, what did you bring to the practise? I mean, I noticed you did the massive sort of overhaul of it kind of soon after. Well, when was it? When I came when I came to the practise, I was amazed at the size of that thing. I mean, it’s it’s the size of maybe Prav used to be the size of maybe three practises stuck together just keeps on going.

[00:27:48] So we were really lucky that the building next door came up for sale. And I was I was treating somebody in the council. I was doing a mayor or something. And I said, you did. The building next door was coming up for sale. And so we bought it and it was really dilapidated. And we spent over a year just joining the two buildings together and had this vision. And we had some really good designers. And I said, if Iron Man had a Dental practise, what would it look like? And that’s kind of what we went for.

[00:28:18] Iron Man, Iron Man, the cartoon, the the Disney Love.

[00:28:23] Tony Stark. Yeah. See, Prav knows what he did.

[00:28:28] I’m telling you the other.

[00:28:30] I am sorry, but I thought you meant Iron Man running Iron Man. That thing, the traffic stress. Then we got go. Sorry. Oh right.

[00:28:43] So yeah. So, so we got that bill and yeah we learn a lot and it was nice because in that clinic I have everything I could possibly one of every toy. The surgeries are set up for me. And you know, interesting. Before Prav came online I was looking at dental practise that I just had a bit of being renovated, etc. And I always look at these dental practises and the waiting rooms are beautiful. They’ve got all the lights and the greys and the gold trim and all that. But then they show the surgeries and the surgery, the sheet, because they’ve not been designed by a proper clinician, there’s not enough room the too small. I can see that there’s not enough room between the chair going back and the wet top behind the dentist. This is where all these companies, when they design it, they give like one point two metre5s behind the head of the chair to the countertop. And it should be one point eight, one point nine metres. I look at, my God, guys, these people are not clinicians, right? They don’t know how to design the surgery properly. So when I did mine, I made sure that it was designed by a clinician so that it was efficient. The workflow was there. It was just so that’s why I’m so in love with my clinic, because it just works properly. And it’s something where I think maybe I should do like a design consultancy, just design and say, guys, look, you can’t have that there. You’ve got to move this here. When you turn around to get your excavator, you’ve got to do a 180 degree turn. You should just be doing a thirty degree turn right. And the other thing is that it rose and the trio says, no, these dangerous as we keep buying the damn things take up so much space, we’re going to park them. Right. It’s like having five cars in the driveway. You go park them somewhere. Right. So I think said you design is something where we are lacking at the moment. You know, I think there’s a real opening for a disrupter into the market.

[00:30:31] Yeah. Although, you know, space is at a premium sometimes. Isn’t that I mean, those are the practise in Bristol last week. And, you know, they’ve just got spaceman. The rooms are so huge that that building in London with. Been like a six million pound at this. There’s no way you’ve got the space is a problem.

[00:30:52] Yeah, true. But then when you look at these this and you can be a bit more ingenious about the design.

[00:30:57] So I’m sure you see it sometimes.

[00:30:59] Yeah. See all the time. But yeah, it is what it is.

[00:31:02] I mean what you said interests me because a lot of times people used to ignore the waiting room and it seems like now it’s kind of gone full circle with the everyone understands the waiting room is very important. The the back in my day, people used to just get this funky chair. And the way to me was to look terrible, like, yeah,

[00:31:20] It’s the whole aesthetic Instagram generation right now. You see, Dentists’, you’ve actually got a banner and they take pictures of all the patients with the little Invisalign back and they stand in front of the back in the banner. Right. How things have changed. Yeah, it just like before they GP now they have like those flower wars that these girls take pictures of when they go to, like the fancy London restaurant. And we have like neon lights and all this. And then the dentist takes a photo with the patient in it. So it’s changed completely the way we design it. And I think it’s great that we’re becoming a lot more aesthetically driven. And as a result, the design of the surgeries has changed. But I don’t want people to lose the importance of the clinical aspect of it. So.

[00:32:05] So when did you start switching from Mr Mercedes’s to Mr Racecar Driver? When did when did the whole car things become costing?

[00:32:15] So I’ve always been mad on cars when I was a kid. You can ask my parents. I just had like toy cars and I still have the toy cars and now my nephew plays with the toy cars that I used to play with. As always, into Porsche was my dream car. And I remember watching Bad Boys when I was younger, like when I was doing my level. And Will Smith was just the coolest guy. You had that 9/11 turbo. I thought, wow, one day. And that was my dream. And it just kind of developed from that as I was doing better and better. And I always wanted to raise my goals. I was also taught to say, look, just because you have this, you need to go after this. Once you get this, you go for this in suits. When Harvey Spectre goes like this, like this, I like this. That probably spoke to me. So I’ve always tried to develop. And the whole thing came about when I used to watch Formula One with my dad, used to watch Michael Schumacher just win. Everything in this red Ferrari would go without only wheels, just used to win everything. And it just kind of got ingrained in my head.

[00:33:13] And my dream was to become a racing car driver. And I had a patient. I’m a very wealthy patient. He used to race customs and he said, you know, why don’t you come along and try to try to out really loved it. And then financially it was viable. So I just took the plunge and. All right, well, become a racing car driver. We start racing. I got my backside handed to me in the first year because I just thought, yeah, well, I’ve done track days, I’ve got fancy car. I’ll be amazing. I’m really could drive. I play Red Racer and Cicarelli as a kid. I’m wicked. Right? Go to the race. Got destroyed and then it took me two and a half years and I don’t know how many hours of training, simulator training, personal training, having a similar home walking race tracks, learning the cars, having a full team around me. And then we started to do well. Then I was in the top ten, then in the top five, then I was on the podium. Then I got asked to race with other teams, did endurance racing. Twenty four hour racing raced all over Europe. It was amazing. Was actually amazing. What’s the what’s

[00:34:15] The process of getting involved in in racing in terms of, you know, somebody wanted to stop, start and get involved in it? What’s the process?

[00:34:23] You just need loads of money. It’s such a money pit. It’s the it’s a scary. So there’s so many race theories out there. The Katrín race series is very good because I came from cause I just unstable. There’s no way there’s no power steering. It’s all manual. You don’t even get a limited death in the first cause. So the car itself is about 30 grand. And then if you really want to comment for the whole year with full team support, you’re probably looking at about another 30, 40 grand on top of that to cover it since about, what, 60, 70 grand for the for the year. And then obviously in the second year in the third is a bit cheaper because you’ve got the helmet, you’ve got the gear. You don’t need to buy the car, but the car gets upgraded every year. So it is it’s like having two kids going through private school, which is what I’m told. I would have not. I’m you guys do that’s a cost implication behind it.

[00:35:14] Which brings us brings us neatly to the why is it you’re not like every other good Indian boy when it comes to getting married early and having kids? Whoa. Oh, that’s what what is it? What happened? It was about you because I’ve come across a fair number of of of of young boys who just almost programmed to follow the parent’s position. Something kicks in.

[00:35:41] I’m a black sheep the of our black sheep. So I would. Say, you know, in your sort of mid to late 20s is when that sort of magic happens, you meet the girl of your dreams and you settle down or see your you’re both happily married. And in my thing, I was doing NMC. Then I did another MASC. Then I was doing an also programme, then I did an MBA and I think really hard degrees. These were not degrees where I would give it everything. So some of my friends wouldn’t see me for a year because I was a study. And I would say to people, you know, I sacrificed a lot for the academic credentials. And I think part of that was probably relationships. I think they all probably struggled. I mean, if you don’t, you’re going to see me for an hour on a Sunday and I’m falling asleep. That’s not really a sustainable relationship. Right. And then plus, I was pretty much not broke. I mean, my father was made sure I had a roof over my head and etc., but I didn’t have any money, really. I was I was working I was doing out of hours emergency service for Essex and I would get 400 quid on a Saturday to do it. And I do like two days a month or something. So I didn’t have boiler money or anything. So it was it was hard. And yeah, I sacrificed all of that just to get to where I am now. And I think now, you know, things have changed. And I am in the position where, yes, I think settling down is something where I’m able to joke about it. And I know my dad active on Facebook with everyone likes to take the Mickey, etc.. But yeah, it is it is something which let’s say it’s a work in progress. So what do you what do you

[00:37:26] Look for in a woman? No one’s listening.

[00:37:33] You know, what I look for now is somebody who’s kind of a good person and who understands that if you’re with somebody who’s very much committed to their career, there’s always going to be allowances made on my side and on her side as well. So you need somebody who’s who’s got some understanding. I mean, we treat a lot of older patients, right? Implant dentistry, just old patients. All my patients are all none of them use Facebook, Instagram. They’re all 50, 60, 70. Whereas if you look at the cosmetic guys, if you look at Rhona Simon, all those guys, all their patients are young. So we have a complete dichotomy of who we treat. And I see them and a lot of them coming together and say, look, you’ve been married for 34 years. What’s the secret of a happy marriage? And they all say compromise, it’s compromise. You have to work at it and it’s always compromise. And I think once you get close to 40, your habits and your patterns are pretty much ingrained in you. And it’s quite hard to become to adjust your life a little bit. So I think for me, I’m looking for somebody who would have that ability to compromise by want to travel and do the things I do and also take into account that I do do crazy stuff every night. I wake up soon to be a racing car driver, wake up. So I want to become a pilot. I want to do everything. I want to do this. I want to be go to space with Mr Branson. It would be nice for somebody who can humour me and take all my craziness into account is what I’m looking for. You guys know anyone mean I

[00:39:09] Tell you,

[00:39:10] This year in

[00:39:12] The studio we discussed a bit before about being out there with the Ferrari’s and the watches. And you know that I see you know, you’re kind of a bit like what’s that thing Chris Burrows, as MA might do to the Dental audience, that there are these people who love you and then there are people who don’t love you. And I break it down. I was thinking about it this morning. There must be a young group of dentists who want to be like you. Right, because who would want to fly planes and drive Ferraris and all of that. And then there’s this other group and I guess a small group of older than this generally, correct me if who don’t want younger dentists to want to be like you. What’s going on? What’s what’s what’s the story? And tell me about that. I mean, we discussed it with Ronan as well. So the trolling side of it. And it’s difficult to manage, right? Difficult to manage.

[00:40:10] Yeah. I think, you know, I started to experience it from VTE days. It’s always a question of the more successful you become, the more people who will dislike you for it. It’s because not because of what you’ve achieved. It’s because you achieving that reminds them of what they haven’t achieved. Right. I like to think and one of the key things for me is when I usually the icewind parties or will be doing another one soon, hopefully. One of the things was if I was really disliked for being who I am, they wouldn’t be three hundred and fifty people turning up to an event that I run on my. But you’re right, it’s a very small area of clinicians, older clinicians, not younger, older, who troll anyone who is a bit of a maverick. And I know I have had it. Rhona’s had it. Simons had it. Sheraz has had it. We’ve all had it. But I like to think I was the first pioneer of the original trolley, trolley and trolley. And then why is it is it is it because I’m brown and I do. Well maybe. But some of the trolls are Asian as well. Is it because I never respond to them? I never give them the satisfaction. They’ve never got anything out of you.

[00:41:27] Sometimes you sometimes take something on your stories, though. I seen that.

[00:41:31] Yeah. I think sometimes I might get the odd kind of when when I don’t get any trolling, I think, well, maybe I’m not significant anymore. I need to do something else to wipe them off the right actually. Exactly. Upsets me. I feel, I feel insignificant but it’s ok.

[00:41:46] Ok. Do I hear you. I hear you. But I just, I just see it as my duty to put this, this idea over here that I think anyone who listens to this will think of you as this is why I wanted you as a sort of a thoughtful, intelligent, considered person. But if I flick through your Instagram or whatever, whatever it is, you could come across as the do to keep showing me Lugo’s Jeremy Ferrari, Rolex, Richard Millais, whatever. And so, by the way, by the way, by the way, I don’t know how I come across and what we don’t know how we come across. But what I’m saying is one of the way you come across is different to who you are. Yeah. So are we going to. Is that the reason for it, that the polarising content.

[00:42:36] You know, the the thing is, I like cars, I like watches, I like all those things and I run to social media accounts. I’ve won Dental one, which is all teeth and all that sort of stuff. And then I have one personal one. And over the years, the personal one has matured slightly. Right. But we all have goals. And when you achieve those goals, you share that goals. And the great thing is my parents, my mom, my dad, my friends, my family was very proud of everything. And to me, I would like to think from if you if you rewind it the short if you said to the 12 year old she was very chubby, had no muscle mass, got bullied when he was younger, had a stammer that, you know, in your late 30s, you’d be doing this, this and this and you’d be going and you’d be doing the Gumble Carelli and you’d be being on this TV and all that sort of stuff. I wouldn’t believe you. I’d say you’re lying. There’s no way you could have it. So if I share all of that, what I’d like to say is to the young guys, gerente guys and the Indian guys, so you can achieve anything you want as long as you’re willing to work really, really hard for nothing comes easy. But you work your arse off. And if you want to buy a Ferrari, you but if you wanna buy a four million pound house, you buy four million pounds, it’s entirely up to you. So for me, if it helps one kid believe in himself, then I don’t give a shit or these heightism because they’re insignificant to me. And as I get older, the more my thing is to mentor and help the younger generation be the younger Asian generation achieve and not be ashamed of their achievements. Because when people meet me, you know, when you meet me, I don’t get high on the list I asked you for. That doesn’t even come into the question right now.

[00:44:31] When you meet me online. That’s how it feels.

[00:44:34] That’s the that’s how it is online, right? Yeah, that is on luff. And I think also, listen, you

[00:44:41] Don’t have to justify it. You don’t have to justify it to me. Look, we’ve got Prav sitting here. Yeah. His own brother was was brought up in the same house as him. Yeah. The same parents, the same situation. And Kailash is more like you and Prav is nothing like you guys give the exact opposite.

[00:45:00] If if if you flick it around to Kailash. Right. Kailash was somebody who did all that before me and I used to see Kailash. I just think, wow, look at this guy. He must be really good. And then he was only once I met him and he came to one of the practises I went to and he gave a course and I saw him do a prayer. And I think he’s actually really good. Not easy or fancy. Fancy, but the guy can cut teeth, you know, he’s really shrink. And then I partied with him once and we got we got really drunk. And I think I had is like really fancy jacket, took it by mistake or something. But these really sound gone and it just goes to show that even I can have preconceptions about someone. But until you meet them, you don’t realise. And for me the amazing thing was just how good he was at dentistry. I mean, a really skilled set of hands. So for me, it was almost like a benchmark, I guess. Is that never much anymore? Yeah, it was almost like a bell.

[00:46:00] He’s too busy sticking implants.

[00:46:03] Yeah, I know. Yeah, you’re too busy.

[00:46:07] Tell us about your MBA. Do tell me. Tell me. Tell me where it came from. We didn’t cut a lot of the people we’re talking to saying I want to do an MBA,

[00:46:14] You know, is the hardest thing I’ve ever done was an MBA. If I fall, Eastman was hard, MBA was hard to another level. And I got into it because I always had the financial side of things right. You draw the financial side, would always look at profit loss accounts, etc.. And then my dad, we read the F.T. and see what he does is he reads it on a Sunday when I’m not at home because I’m getting home in my parent’s place of two nights a week. On the time I’m in London, he put like the paper on my desk. I need highlighted like some NBA fare. And he said, you know, you talk about doing an NBA is an NBA face. You go to it. So I went to this NBA and got chatting to them and Harvard University were there. You could do like a distance. Of course. I remember sitting down with the Harvard University women, and before I even sat down, she said, our programme is one hundred and twenty thousand pounds. If you can’t afford it, I suggest you throw it is like nothing, not even a hello and nothing. Just one twenty grand. You can’t afford it. Magariaf, you look poor you capital. So then I went to the. OK, fine. Yeah. I’m really glad that because go that. So I went to the Imperial College people and the guy and the girl was so nice and they were talking about my dentistry and this that and they said look we really want you on our programme. You need to send in a video recording of.

[00:47:35] Yourself as to why you want to do it, so I did this video recording, which is really cheesy centre in and I’m still in two minds sent in. And then they they accepted me and offered me a scholarship for it is about 40 grand to do an MBA and it was subsidised. So then you can’t really say no, you kind of got to do it to two executive MBA started it and then see Sharma was on it with me as well. Totally out of the blue coincidence. And then we did this MBA. And I tell you what, the problem with dentists is we’re so obsessed with this, so obsessed. We don’t think about the big picture. And the MBA gave me an understanding of the bigger picture of the world. And we looked at innovation. We looked at how to be an entrepreneur. And also so interesting looking at profit and loss accounts, understanding what the corporate world is about, understanding how the credit crunch happened. It just kind of changed my mindset. And it was hard. It was really we had really difficult corporate finance and accountancy modules. I had to get a tutor to come in on the weekend and go through with me because I was so dumb I couldn’t do the maths properly. I could count the money. But you can’t do the maths. It was so hot. So, so but to this day, again, it was an amazing thing to do and I’m so, so grateful for having the opportunity to do it. And I’d recommend it to any contacts.

[00:48:56] Did you did you make contacts in the world outside of the world of dentistry?

[00:49:03] Yeah, loads, loads and loads and loads, because everyone was from a different aspect. You had people from oil and gas, people from the media, people from all sorts of contact wise. It was fantastic. And also when you go to like an event or a dinner party or whatever, and you meet someone and he goes, Oh, I work in MNM before Eminem, he makes chocolate sauce or whatever. And then, you know, he doesn’t mean Eminem means Eminem. He was seven, eight. And then now I’m like, wow, you work in him and tell me about this. And it just kind of broadens your horizons a little bit. And I think it makes you a better dentist because your brain sort of works in a slightly different level. Some people can do that without having to go through the didactic teaching. The good thing about the Imperial College one is we had so many hands on and practical experiences. It was amazing. We do negotiation. We see all sorts. And I excelled at negotiation. Apparently that was like my thing about I was really underhanded and lethal in negotiation and get told off. But everything I’ve come across respect, if you’ve had to see

[00:50:08] That,

[00:50:13] I would say, is to be in a place in your life. I mean, for me, I could do all this stuff because I don’t have a life. I don’t have a kids. I come back to my place. There’s no one here is dead quiet. I can Sunday’s is my day of study is Jim what’s the Formula One? And studied the whole day. I have that benefit. If I had a wife and a kid and everything would be really difficult to compartmentalise the time. It’s if you are going to consider it, just be aware.

[00:50:41] What are the key takeaways from you from the MBA? Anything changed in the practise conversations with patients? Was it just sort of more organic and holistic? I mean, can you can you step back now and say, actually, you know what, the business has changed because of this, this and this, for example? And are there any sort of key tangibles?

[00:51:01] Yeah, a few things were don’t be afraid to talk about money. Right, so many dentists that would be like, well, it’s going to cost them 13000 and then put their head down, some dentist won’t even talk the money. They get the t shirt for me. More now. Now that we went through, the whole negotiation module changed. It’s so easy for me to talk about the money side of things with patients. And we all have our own way of doing the way about what’s your USP as a dental clinic? What’s your USB? For me, it was always a question of if I was doing implants, I’d say, look, and I’ll intro myself. I’d say, my name is PAMA. I qualified from the U.K. I’m a dentist by master’s degree in prosthetics and implant dentistry. This is my practise and I’m planning on being here for a very long time. So if you have any problems with your implant work in 10 years time, I’m still going to be right. And it was just trying to put yourself in the patient mindset. What are they concerned about? They’re not concerned about that one point, two mil margin when you’re not they’re just concerned about what’s going to happen in the future. Are you going to guarantee stuff with them? We’re going to be the ones that fixes. But the other thing was analytics, looking at data. So working out how much we spend in the practise, working out who comes to the website, who leaves the website. If I make a post about implants on my Instagram, how many more consultations do I get? If I put a surgical case on my Instagram, which is aimed at dentists, how many more referrals do I get the next week? I’m just looking at data and understanding that data is key for any sort of business and there’s loads of other things that that we don’t. But those are probably my two main takeaways from.

[00:52:43] Did you do your MBA thesis on something social media as well?

[00:52:47] Yeah, so mine was the industry and social media. I was lucky because because I’m one of the admin for for D was able to capture a lot of data from dentists. And it was a questionnaire based thesis looking at how do dentists see social media. And then we flipped it to patients. How do patients perceive dentists, social media? How many patients search for their dentist on social media? How many patients search for your private Facebook profile on social media? And the numbers are pretty impressive. I’m giving a talk on it with Philips and FMC next week. Tuesday. It’s my little plug.

[00:53:27] Let’s go. Let’s go. You must get approached all the time by manufacturers, implant companies and toothpaste people. And especially I mean, I don’t know if to going a little bit more quiet, I’d say now. But back when you were peaking, when you were Peking Duck a couple of years ago on Social, but you didn’t get involved with that many different companies, but now you’ve got yourself involved with this indemnity thing. Does that us about the whole thing? And and.

[00:54:00] Yeah, yeah, I was doing a lot. I think my programme was, first of all, to become known, to become known in the industry. And I went through a period where early on in my career I got in trouble with the GDC, had some disciplinary issues. That was about 16 years ago, I think. And then I went quiet for a little while. And then after that, I thought, you know, well, we’ll make mistakes, let’s bring ourselves back up. Started developing, Louise, from Mannan, who, you know, we still work together, and she helped build some brand recognition for me. And over lockdown, I set up a health care consultancy firm. And the idea behind that was to try and leverage what I know about health care with the MBA, to do work with certain Dental companies or health care companies, be it pension funds, be new products coming to the market, the Internet offerings, et cetera. And through that, I go approach to be on the executive committee of a new indemnity product, and it’s called the Dental Defence Society. And you’ve got big names. You’ve got Professor Stephen Dunn, Lauren Birnbaum. And we basically designed because obviously on defo on for. And despite that, this is one of the biggest questions we get is who’s your endowment, which indemnity Friday used to after moderating that forum for about twelve years. I know every question everybody wants to ask. I know what people are worried about. So using that knowledge, we designed a product for dentists and it’s a really exciting offering which aims to provide reasonably priced indemnity covers all aspects. And most importantly, every case is serviced by practising or former practising dentists. And we have a really aggressive legal team. So the idea is we’re not just there to settle for the time. We’re trying to take the dentists side. And I’ve learnt a lot about indemnity through developing that package. And it’s just being launched now and it’s going to be quite an exciting few years. I think we’ll be up there in the top four or top five quite quickly. I would have thought

[00:56:09] That was a bit more about indemnity, because I speak to a lot of dentists to probably similar to, you know, do sort of high end maybe what’s considered to be higher risk work and volume of that. And the clothes that come back just to keep them protected are insane. And they’ve gone up a lot. So first of all, I guess there’s a couple of questions about the are the right standard across the board about who you go to. You’re going to pay similar. And then what about the level of protection of that?

[00:56:41] Yeah, so the rates vary immensely, immensely. And a lot of it is if you claw it back to an underwriter. Right. So if you approach and underwriter as an indemnity company, you’d say, right, we’ve got five hundred dentists and we would classify half of them as doing high risk procedures and the other half is low risk procedures. But we’ve got four thousand cases ongoing that underwriters are going to say, well, here’s your premium. Right, is if you approach the underwriter and you say we’re going to only provide cover to dentists who we prevent. So we interviewed the dentists, we talked to them. We assess their risk profile and then will apply a fee to their indemnity and we will educate them with X, Y and Z. The underwriters say, OK, that’s a better offering increase. They’ll offer you a lower rate for that person. That’s why the prices are so different, which is why the newer companies tend to be able to offer a lower level of premium than, say, Dental protection or you’ve got. Are claims going back a long, long time and the other thing is having indemnity, which is not always settling right. You need a legal team which look at Dental Law Partnership. They single handedly increased premiums for every dentist in the country because of the things that were doing. But if you look at them now, they’re quite disorganised in the papers that they submit in the allegations that they put forward. A lot of the companies are settling these claims just to get them off the books, just to clear them off. Whereas if you’re a younger, more agile company, you’ve got the benefit of actually being able to fight and look at these claims very carefully. One of the thing that shocked me is one indemnity provider was asking the dentist to write their own letters. That’s not me going to pizza, ordering a pizza. And I go go in the kitchen and make it yourself. Right. So I think there’s there’s an area for a new competitor to enter the market, which is what we’re doing. And Touchwood, it’ll go very well.

[00:58:42] Name one more time to.

[00:58:44] Dental Defence Society, yes.

[00:58:48] And what was the name USPI then? Is it that you’re preventing the dentists? And almost like I guess the way I’m thinking about my daughter’s just started driving and the insurance company put a little box in the car, so a premium comes down. So if she drives like a wolly, they’ll know about it. And so is that your version of what courses have you done, how many failures that you have, cetera, et, and you’re doing that pre-screening and then that is the right thing. Is it the fact that you’ve got a young team of lawyers who want to fight and not settle? What’s the difference? Correct.

[00:59:24] Yeah. So we have quite an aggressive legal team very keen on fighting and not settling. The organisation actually also started out by covering GPS, which I think was twenty seventeen. It was started out by some GPS who wanted to provide indemnity for GPS and now it’s just sort of evolved into dentists. And one of the things was when you have a conversation with somebody on the phone, I mean, we’re all dentists. We can we can figure out what dentist is like after talking to them for me. Let’s say if I’m with dental protection and my indemnity to do implants was twelve thousand pounds or ten thousand pounds a year, how much of my indemnity premium is going towards backing up the dentist who doesn’t write notes properly or is backing up the dentist who’s done no interest in the dental clinic? And it’s then the am I subsidising those clinicians? I don’t want to subsidise those clinicians. So our idea was we’d we’d have a chat with you and we’d say, right, tell us about how you work, what you do, where have you trained so we can get a feel for it. And then we’d say, OK, this is your premium and move from that. So I think it’s a clever way of doing it. And also we’ll run the Dental forms. We know what everyone’s dentistry is like, right? You kind of get a feel for me after talking to them. So I’m excited to see how it how it develops.

[01:00:41] Interesting. Now, let’s take us back to the GDC case. I’ve spoken to quite a few dentists who had that letter, that moment it lands my brother, many of my clients, and there’s nothing quite like it. You know, the sleepless nights tearing the world upside down, all those years of study and all hanging on a thread. Right. Terrible, terrible feeling of just just talk me through the feeling that you went through and how you dealt with it.

[01:01:10] You know, from a from a mental health perspective. I think if you are not mentally strong or don’t have a good support base, I think it could ruin you completely. I think that’s something that you need to understand, because if they’re trying to protect the public, I think they’re also mentally hurting the dentist that they investigate. And it’s almost like you feel like you’re being done for murder, right? You feel as if you’ve done your criminal when you get that letter. Yeah, it’s and it comes to these beautiful brown envelopes, brown envelopes and never see the parking. Fine, speeding fine. Inland Revenue GDC. When I see a brown envelope in the thing, I’m not know what is it. Great TV licence. Fine happy thing. So I messed up many, many years ago and got into trouble with them and had all the letters and all the stuff. And I think it, it makes you question where your life is going to go. Let’s say you can’t work as a dentist. You’ve trained for so long. You’ve done I mean, I haven’t done any postgrad at that time, but everything you planned in your life. Right. Would would shatter and is really, really scary. But I think at the time I saw Dental protection. You were excellent, you know, and I think you need that support network, which is why I think being on a on a legal team, on executive committee now will eventually be helping dentists. Having that insight into what the dentist is going to I think is really important mentally. I think it can be you can go into depression, to be honest with you.

[01:02:49] You can just become depressed and you can not want to do dentistry anymore. But I think the way the market is now or the profession is now, I think many of us will have that letter at least one point in your life. Now, for me, if I got another letter, touchwood, I won’t. I don’t think it would freak me out as much because you’ve been through it already. Right. But it’s something where I would and I’m always so cautious on, especially with social media and the younger dentists, you qualify and you think you’re untouchable. And the one thing I was warned that especially in the social media lecture, I don’t swear on social media. Don’t throw on any platform where your patients to be. You can’t be doing this. You can’t be doing that. You need to be careful as to what you say. If you have any strong viewpoints which divert diverse from the normal, need to be very careful as to how you share them, where you share them. Because Big Brother is always watching and it’s something I wouldn’t want anyone to go through, but interesting you talk about the trolls and the Mai Mai fan club, as I like to call them. Imagine 14 years later, Payman. I’m on the executive committee of a new indemnity organisation, somebody anonymously emails the organisation saying, do you know Neelesh Palmer had an issue with the GDC 14 years ago? Well, imagine imagine what level of human being you have to be to do.

[01:04:17] That’s a special kind of thing.

[01:04:20] And and the thing is, they already knew I’m not hiding anything. They already knew. They think it’s good. They think it means I know what to do. And the thing is, when you haven’t met these people who just have it in for you, no matter what you do, you kind of just get used to it. It doesn’t really bother me anymore. I think my friends, some of my friends get even more excited than I do because I think we know who it is. It’s quite easy to tell by something. You just have to live your life and just carry on. And the higher you fly, the more people will try and bring you down. But you just have to try and fly so high that they can’t even see you anymore. And that’s the ultimate test.

[01:04:57] Takes us nicely onto other errors. We ask everyone about clinical errors and Prav seems to like the one about, oh, I drilled the wrong to my hand slipped. But but I’m not interested in that one. I’m interested in something, you know, decision you made that was incorrect or after reflection, you would have done it differently. Something we can all learn from the market, can learn from the people listening to learn from touchwood.

[01:05:28] I’m not had to drill the wrong tooth to count a wrong to moment touchwood. It’s all been OK. There’s a few patients whom I wish I hadn’t treated right because my ego said and that when you say ego is the worst thing in the world. And those a few, the dentist, X, Y, Z has tried it, I’m better than them. I’m going to fix your problems because I’m the top dog. Woof, woof. And then you try and fix it and then you cook it up even more than the other guy did. And then this patient becomes your problem. And not only does it take time, it gives you a bit of anxiety. And when you see that name on your list, you think, oh, God, no, not this past. And to me, it was always a question of select your page. Don’t be afraid to say I’m sorry, Mr. Patel. Oh, Mrs. Battal, I can’t fix this problem for you, but I’ll refer you to my friend X, Y, Z up the road just to somebody you don’t like. He will look into it for you. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong just to put your hand up. That’s too complicated for me. I can’t do it. And that’s a key thing to understand.

[01:06:42] But your instinct told you not to treat this patient. But your ego,

[01:06:47] My ego, my ego said I can’t do this. You can do it. You’re the man. You can do it.

[01:06:53] Some on the buttocks. Expand a little bit on it. Don’t just a little bit. As far as you know, what was it was it was that the patient was never going to be happy, whatever you did. Personal.

[01:07:02] Yeah. So it was a TMJ case. Had had Crown’s done the occlusion was off one of the crowns to be redone. Fairly straightforward, but there’s something about her that was an edge to her that now it would the alarm bells would be going off. So I did it. And then she would talk and talk and talk about 20 minute appointment to become a forty five minute appointment. I think she would just be and she’d be telling you what she wants you to do. Right. So she will

[01:07:31] See you

[01:07:32] Always a time. And I was like, yeah, I’ve got fancy scanning machine. You know, we can digitally articulate your jaw and do this and do that. And then as soon as I put my fancy restorations into it, it’s wrong. Just it it’s absolutely wrong. It is very bad and so, so bad. And I was like, where do I go from here? Like, what do I do now? Right. Where do I go? And is one of the ones where as soon as that moment happens, your brain, your ego just goes into his little hole and then the other side your brain goes, I told you and now you’re in the the crap. Right? So that’s something that you learn. And now I think maybe every couple of months I’ll turn a patient away. I just say, look, I can’t help you go see a specialist or whatever because I can’t do it. I’m just a kid. I don’t know. I don’t know a very simple man. I don’t want to do that. So you kind of have to play to your strengths. I think that’s the key thing.

[01:08:32] Any influence is.

[01:08:34] Yeah, loads, loads. If you do enough, you get loads. I do about three hundred a year now and I’d say I probably get recently we’ve had a lot more failures on the implant groups and stuff we think is vitamin D. We think it’s cortisol levels. Stress levels are all having effects on implant success rates. Sent a few patients out for blood tests off. The implants have failed for no reason whatsoever. And we found that vitamin D problems have had high cholesterol. Lockdown has affected. I mean, we not really touched on it, but lockdown has has affected the health of our patients in a way that we don’t know and they don’t. And for implant Dental. Yeah, big, big issues, I think. And we are seeing clusters of failures where five, six years ago, no issue whatsoever

[01:09:20] On what you do as a clinician in that situation.

[01:09:25] Take it out. Send them off for bloods and then try again and nine times out of ten second time round, about one patient at the moment who we’ve tried three times, had these bloods done, had everything done, still doesn’t look, I’ve noticed an increased failure rate in penicillin, allergic patients, penicillin, allergic patients. The biology seems to be somewhat different. The oral microflora because they’ve never had amoxicillin or penicillin is different to somebody who’s had penicillin in the past. And they have a high incidence of dry socket and a high incidence of implant failure. And there is some literature coming out to support it now.

[01:10:05] Where’s the less PAMA going to be in five years time? We’re talking retired to two kids and a Tesla and then forget that that figure for career wise, career wise

[01:10:20] And career wise, buying buying another clinic at the moment. Oh, in London, expanding now in Essex and Essex nearby. There’s there’s two more in Essex I’ve got my eye on. And the owners are coming close to retirement. So one hopefully soon and the other one maybe in the next three to four years. And then basically between the three, I’ve got Essex kind of cornered. I’ve got no interest in central London. There’s too many sharks in that tank. For me, Essex is my area. I like it works well for me and to me, I think it would be less clinical because at one point I was in six days a week, six days a week clinic,

[01:10:59] Non-stop NHS and everything. I don’t remember

[01:11:02] And NHS employment. I remember you saying to me, you’ve got Kameda, this is too much. You’re stressing me out by what I’m about. You know, I had, I had a figure I wanted to achieve. I wanted to get to a level and then ease off a bit. I think I want to cut down to maybe three, three days a week I think, and have and also just concentrate on the consultancy business and more on some of the charity charitable endeavours that I’ve been involved with I think have been right. I think you’re

[01:11:30] Always blessed when you’re doing charity, but you’re always best when you’re doing charity really suits you. And it’s interesting, isn’t it? On one side, you’ve got the trolls saying, you know, Ferrari, and then on the other side, your best friend, you’re doing charity. We’ve got it. We’ve got to shut it down. But Prav always ends it with the same question.

[01:11:51] Somebody, as I know, is a long, long way away because you still spring chicken, but imagine it was your last day on the planet and you were surrounded by your nearest and dearest, your loved ones and those who you hope to inspire. What three pieces of wisdom would you like to leave them with?

[01:12:13] For life alone, no one would be you can achieve anything you want as long as you’re willing to put the working. Number two from an uncle of mine, he said to me, the more you have in life, the more humble you must become. A number three was whenever anyone asks you for help, even if you don’t know them but you think it’s justifiable, do what you can to help them. So help people where you can. And those be my three final words before.

[01:12:53] And how would you like to be remembered? There was. Dot, dot, dot.

[01:13:01] And dentistry, just it just

[01:13:03] In general, whatever

[01:13:06] I would say, he lived to his full potential because I think not exploring your full potential is a crime. I think you need to do everything you’re capable of doing and push yourself to the limit.

[01:13:22] We didn’t we didn’t we didn’t get to the bottom of it, you know, but you are that confident, dude, you do what you want to do. But that’s not the picture you drew of when you were a kid. Something clicked. We didn’t get to the bottom of party. Going, go.

[01:13:40] Finally, we have 30 days left and you had all your house intact. What would you do for those 30 days?

[01:13:48] And I’ll spend I think I’d probably have to liquidate every asset so I could set up some trust funds for my two nephews and spend as much time as a kind of my family and friends. Lovely.

[01:14:02] Yeah. Yeah. Where how would. Holidays, what’s your favourite place you’ve been to

[01:14:12] Italy,

[01:14:13] Really?

[01:14:14] It’s all over any part of Italy I love, it is great. And in Venice, I really liked by Italy, Milan around there with the driving ideology, driving trips, and each year I got to Europe and then we drive around and I do them, but do them as a drivers club. We have about 10, 12 cars. But I’m in the car on my own. I don’t I really don’t bring anyone with me. And that’s my time. That’s my time to think and reflect and then decide what goes I have for the next six months. So that time is really important to me. I love Italy and Payman to what clicked. What changed was getting into Dental school when all the odds were against me and then getting my implant masters and realising there’s a moment in every dentist’s life where you think, you know what, I’m actually good at what I do. There’s no ego. It’s not cockiness. You just think, you know, I’ve done this and it works. And I think that gives you that confidence. And for me, I always had my biggest fan club was always my parents. So as parents yourselves, if your dad says you can do it.

[01:15:19] You go and you do it lovely, really lovely. Thanks so much for doing this. Thank you.

[01:15:26] My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[01:15:29] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:15:45] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if

[01:16:00] You did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:16:10] And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] And when I realise people like me and they are happy to be my patients and I’ve been a dentist for 22 years, why not? I can to Klondyke. So why don’t I just find people that are like me, you know, like me, have things in common. So that has been my secret until now.

[00:00:28] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your highest Payman Langroudi, I’m Prav Solanki.

[00:00:46] It’s an absolute pleasure to have you go through the multi award winning Bishopsgate Dental. It’s lovely to have the chance at this podcast all about kind of the back story, trying to get the journey along the way, how you got to where you got to to start us off like that. Where were you born? How did you grow up? Why did you become a dentist? All of that.

[00:01:10] Ok, well, thank you very much for the invite, guys. I’m really, really excited to be talking to you today. Well, as you may have guessed from my accent, I am not an English speaking country. I’m from Mexico, so my mother tongue is Spanish. I was born in Mexico City and my childhood was a very happy one. And when I was eight years old, I decided that I wanted to be a dentist. Don’t ask me why I think it was. I’m almost sure it was the smell of the dental practise that my mom used to take, because when we were children and I just like that that smell that now I know is oil. So I fall in love with that. And I decided that I was going to be a dentist. There was something that changed my mind. So in nineteen ninety eight, I was very fortunate to to become qualified dentist in Mexico City from university. That’s got to make it difficult.

[00:02:16] Is it difficult to become a dentist in Mexico, like to get in?

[00:02:19] No, not really. The biggest difference between university here and in Mexico is that the majority of the universities have private universities, so you have to pay for it. They are obviously they are universities that are state universities, but they don’t necessarily have the taxes or the of the Baker commission. So normally you if you can afford it, you will have private education all the way through university. So the reality is that if you can pay, you can get so. So, of course you do have to pass an exam is not that everybody can go through. And then the thing is, of course, if you’re not good enough, I’m going to stop talking. Oh, so so I think that getting into your knee is not the thing is keeping in and finishing the degree, raising

[00:03:24] Your parents feel that they do.

[00:03:26] Well, my mom when my my mom was very, very, very young, she was only when she got married to my dad that was ten years older than her and that is ten years older than her. My dad worked as a self-employed salesman, selling many, many things through his life. But at the moment he’s basically doing selling of lighting systems and things like that. So, yeah, a businessman, a salesman, really. And my mom had a degree to be a secretary when she was in college. And later on in her life, maybe in her early 40s, he decided to go back to work. And she was also saleswoman what she was doing, advertising and things like that. So, yeah, the two of them. Very good work ethics now, I think involved in the need to be on me. So so, yeah. Trying to follow the steps

[00:04:29] Of what was what was university life like, the balance of academic, social, all that sort of stuff.

[00:04:36] Yeah. Well I, I love it. I absolutely love every minute of it. We cut. This is quite bizarre because from from the first semester you actually start with two patients. We have we will go through medical history with them. I think in the first year you start doing the prophylaxis scale and polishes. So it was a very good practical academic and practical, was very much together. And we used to finish uni probably about. Three or four pm, and then after that, and we will go out and have big parties, I love parties, people that nobody will know that very well. So since I was a teenager, obviously I will go and socialise and go to big parties. We used to go to uni even on Saturday as well. So we were all very tired in the morning. It was the hangover. Sometimes I feel like I have to agree to it. So now what? It was really good. The balance was great. And in Mexico, we don’t tend to leave our homes to go to uni. So I was still living with my parents through all my university and my my colleagues, my friends the same. So, you know, many of you are let’s say if you live in London, you go to London at uni. So it’s very different in Mexico. If you’re in Mexico City, you go to Mexico City or in the other place. So that also helps by keeping good relationships with your parents? I think so. We are very family oriented country. So. So, yeah, it was great.

[00:06:38] I’ve never been to Mexico City. I’ve been to Mexico, but never been to Mexico City. But you hear the stories of it being one of the busiest cities in the world, but super fast moving, high population and over. What would you say that you’re working right in the middle of London now as a vibe, as the city would say? The biggest differences? I mean, is it a fun place is a dangerous place? What’s it like?

[00:07:04] Well, Mexico City, when I was growing up and when I lived there because actually I’ve been here in the UK for 20 years, so I have lived longer in London and in Mexico when I was growing up. And it was always B.C., it was always dangerous. He has always been dangerous. I think one of the biggest shames in Mexico is the corruption. And unfortunately, corruption brings a lot of crime with it. So 80s at the moment, a very dangerous city, but it’s a great place to go and have fun. You know, I have loads and loads of my patients going to Mexico and they always come and ask me for advice. I actually even have text that I copy and paste because I’ve been asked so many times about which restaurants to go to try. I have it already. So when anybody asks me, I just copy and paste what I always said to them, do not do anything that the hotel people tell you not to do. You know, like always use certified taxi. Don’t be walking in silly places by yourself. You know, all these things that we probably do here in London as well, taking a lead to be more more care on that. But I love the vibe in London. I love London is so it’s very sexy. Mexico City is also so huge that you only really get to know the place that you meet at the place that you that you work. You don’t really know too many of the places because it’s so big. So. Yeah, but London is great. I love it.

[00:08:52] General, what was the what was the transition like. When did what when did you decide I’m going to go to London. What sort of motivated that decision and what was the difference in culture. Was was there a culture shock or did you celebrate instead? What were the biggest differences that you noticed?

[00:09:10] Well, and I moved over here because actually my husband, I met him when I was travelling in Europe, backpacking in Europe, and so we basically we fall in love. And he came to visit us to Mexico. And then I came to visit him and I never left after that. So he was he was fine with me here in London. So what one thing that was very clear for me is that because I always wanted to be a dentist since I was a little girl, that was something that was never going to stop me from doing. I was going to come to London and I was going to be here on my own merit. That was something that we always focus on from the very beginning, because he said, well, stay stay with me. And I say, well, I will stay. If I find myself a job and a visa, I’m not going to get into a marriage just to stay in this country. So I was very, very fortunate because at the moment, well, maybe we’re coming to the same. But it was a shortage of nurses at the time and some nurses and dentists. So I basically find a job very straight away. The first interview I went, they offered me the job as a Dental. Then they offered to sortable my visa on all my paperwork.

[00:10:37] So at that point, I had already I was very fortunate that in Mexico I learnt English as I was privately educated. They wanted to do English. I was not fluent. I would defend myself. I wasn’t fluent, but allow me to work. So. So that was very good. And I don’t think I found a shock culturally at all because I have always been the only thing I will say was different things that I didn’t realise or not different. I didn’t realise that the Mexicans and the British people had a very similar sense of humour. You know, that was something that I absolutely loved from the very beginning. We like to say things sometimes. We give it a second sense. We we joke about things. We we do know that banter that that’s that kind of relationship between friends and sometimes people, colleagues and things like that is great. And I absolutely love that. So, no, for me, I don’t think that was a shock at all. I fall into it quite happily and I have always been very fortunate to have friends around me that like me the way I am. And sometimes I can be very Mexican in my way of thinking or saying things. But yeah, I have always been accepted the way I am one because some Mexican as well.

[00:12:14] So you would Dental nursing while you were studying to do this? Conversion exams.

[00:12:20] Exactly, yes.

[00:12:22] Exams. Right.

[00:12:23] The ones that were very hard at the more of the time that it was the international qualifying exam, which is I worked as a Dental for two and a half years. Well, that that if you ask me now, I think it was one of the best things that could have ever happened to me, because is the way that I get to understand how dentistry was done here in the UK. I and then many times that I didn’t know because obviously I studied in Spanish and actually I think it makes me the better now that I have my practise because I understand where the nurses are coming from. I, I know the jobs they have to do. I sympathise with that. So yeah, for me was one of the first things that we have ever done.

[00:13:25] And so you went from nurse posture exams, qualified as a as a dentist. And then what happened next? Did you carry on working in the same place or find your first job? And then I guess you migrated the story of becoming a business owner of the what was that journey?

[00:13:42] Well, I when I qualified, I worked for a year in an NHS private practise with a lot more, and it was probably about 80 percent NHS and 10 percent private school, because at that point where I decided to move over here, I then requalified two and a half years later. I was already so ready to be a mom, to have a family. So after the first year, I had my first child and after my maternity leave, I didn’t go back to that job again because I I wasn’t very happy with the practise, to be honest. So then after that, this practise was and in. And then after that I went to work all the time, which was in the south. East. Exactly. And I worked there for three years. And for just as for curiosity, I because I was doing more private work there in Tunbridge Wells one day I just became curious and started looking around to see if there was something else it closer to home because I was obviously a Mormon and having to drive to Italy. So it wasn’t that bad. But I was still trying to find something closer. And I was very, very fortunate that I found a lovely private practise just two, three minutes from my house where I worked for two years before buying Bishopsgate.

[00:15:30] So you live as a dentist in Mexico. Was it more like the NHS practise or more like the private practise? Is it all private in Mexico?

[00:15:41] The majority of dentistry is private, so it is. Regarding your previous plans, do they send you shock? The only shock I found is that when I start seeing a lot of NHS dentistry and of course, please don’t take I don’t want to be rude or anything. I haven’t seen any dentistry for many, many years now. But when I arrived to the country, I used to say, wow, I thought I was going to give a step forward and two or three steps backwards. Know all my dentistry in Mexico. I only practise in Mexico for three years. And that was privately.

[00:16:20] But was it similar to private practise here in so much of materials, you were taking time with patients and all of them?

[00:16:29] Yes, yes, yes. The advantage that Mexico has with the country is that we are neighbours with America, with the United States. So therefore, the majority of my lecturers, for example, had postgraduate degree from the materials were all readily available. We always had excellent materials. For example, since I started, I had a very good brand everywhere in the world. I have never, ever worked within the company that hasn’t been applied in Mexico, for example. So the materials were always very good that the quality of dentistry very good. And the great thing about dentistry is in many other degrees too. But they are so obviously very difficult for you to understand, to do dentistry in the in in London. And I will say of course not, because the teeth are the same, that the treatments are the same. So no, it was just basically learning the names in aviation and then they get the name of the instrument that is the same dentistry suit.

[00:17:47] Get on to Bishopsgate. Was it a squat? Did you open it or did you buy it?

[00:17:54] No, I bought Bishopsgate dental care in 2010, but I bought it and it was done in practise. The previous owner’s heart was not in it until it was a very neglected practise in every sense of the word. So, yeah, about the practise

[00:18:21] That appeal to you. What’s the potential for turn around? Was that something that you wanted specifically?

[00:18:29] No, not at all. When I started working the the practise that was June. It was May or June 2010. I didn’t know that the practise was bankrupt. And Dow probably about. A month before I signed the contract, it was, wow, I was basically lied all the way. So, no, it was a big shock for me was the biggest shock because I could see potential when you were in there. And I would agree area. Right is a beautiful area is amazing on the ground floor. So people walk around and we are there. So that was

[00:19:22] What about what about you? Were you even qualified to understand the spreadsheets and the profit and loss? Was that part of the problem?

[00:19:32] Well, the part of the problem, yes, of course. I didn’t know anything about numbers and profits and then profit. So anything I was it I was I was very naive at the time. So I think it was the very handy work of my husband because he was always saying no, not because this guy was signing the sign. The contract signed the contract. My husband was not all. We have to see what the solicitor says and we have to say what the accountant says, you know, so he was always the more sensible part of the equation, because my heart immediately I fall in love with the practise. I fall in love with every area, everything about the practise. And my husband was the sensible person. We have to look at the numbers

[00:20:26] To see do what does your husband.

[00:20:28] And if was in with I.T. consultant, but actually I know when this is going to change because I have never understood what he does for a living. I know he’s very good at it.

[00:20:49] So so he was more of a detail orientated person. So then you signed up and you bought the thing. I mean, I went I’ve been there quite recently. There’s been a pandemic, but it’s a huge practise now. It couldn’t have started like that. You didn’t know what was it? How many surgeries was it?

[00:21:11] What we only had to surgery. It was it was basically at some point it was the myself was a dentist, two part time hygienist, receptionist and a nurse. That seems that was only the four of us were actually only three of us. The nurse, the receptionist. The night there all the time and two part time I do this. So knowing was very different from what is now. The good thing is that I think when when you are determined to make something a success, when you have a Dental dreams and say, well, I want to do this, I want to achieve these, I it took me a long time to do to achieve what I have achieved. And fortunately, I inherited a terrible receptionist manager that they almost made it doubly hard for me to succeed it because she was in her old ways, she was not open to do anything that was not typical of the telephone booking appointments. So so that was really, really hard. But within a couple of years, we managed to settle another surgery, also build a room on by two thousand. On 14, I managed to find what is my my well, my back. She holds my back. That is my manager. She’s amazing. And she’s one of the reasons that we have achieved so much, so much in the last few years.

[00:23:01] Geeta, what was your process of trying to find the person that your backbone, as you described, of the practises of your manager? She had someone who was a roadblock that was getting in the way. And I think you probably identified early on that, look, if I want to progress and build this the way I do, the person needs to go, I’m assuming, and be replaced by someone better. And so what was your process about finding that the individual, because of me being involved with a few practises your practise manager can make or break the success of the practise that they they are literally the backbone. And the way I see it that the delay between you. The rest of the problems in the practise and having that layer allows you to focus on what your vision is and they can help solve the problem. That’s my experience anyway. So just talk me through the process. If you went on this mission to find this person, did you interview lots of people? Did you know straight away when you found this person? This is the one?

[00:24:02] Well, I think I did actually know after interviewing many, many, many people. My main objective was to find somebody that was going to be open to do two new things that at that time in 2013, 2014, there was the pain advertising starting to happen. There was D social media starting to be a little bit more portable dentistry. So that was it was something that I wanted to go into. So I knew that they had to be it has to be somebody that will be happy and open for new ideas, because my receptionist that was the manager previously was so poorly motivated and was like she wasn’t the right person for me. When I was interviewing and practise managers, I actually realised what actually a practise manager does in a job. So I learnt from those interviews what type of person I wanted to go for and what type of questions I needed to ask was for me was also a learning process when I met Amanda. She was always very, very accommodating of my ideas and we had a really good chemistry between the two of us in that interview that I didn’t wanted to let her go. So I offered the job and I’m so very happy that she said yes. So she’s been with me for close to seven years now and we are a great team. Together we call each other. We are almost like sisters. You know that. We had a really lovely relationship. So, you know, I’m very happy with you.

[00:26:00] When you visit your practise, that seems to be a real vibe about the team. The know everyone seems so happy to be at work. And I know I know you’ve won a bunch of awards on the subject as well. But so would you put that down to, you know, you were saying before your experience as a Dental nurse yourself. Oh, what else? I mean, the way I see it when I come back, Gina, it feels like you’re the host of a party, the hostess. It just feels like it’s a good time being had in general. What is the comfort you?

[00:26:37] Well, I think it comes from a lot of work on finding the right people to work. For me, my biggest advice to anybody starting or buying a new practise is get surrounded with people that think like you. And we are all very similar. We we like to do a job well done. We are also very social people. So we we chat about many things. We go out for drinks. We are very, very nice team. So but also is exactly as you said, because I was already I worked as a Dental for two and a half years. I didn’t want to have people working with me just to suction that thing. It needs to be a to be more more opportunities for these people to to to to get better in their jobs. So I have always pushed my staff to to do what they like the most. And if they want to go in courses, we have to pay for the courses and we are happy for them to get more from the job they do. And I think that also makes them happy, because obviously, if you are growing, if you if you if you are not, you know, if you are not, let’s do what I want to use it. Exactly. You need to keep moving and but also people that they need to be recognised for their worth.

[00:28:16] So so then give us some top tips. You know, you said one, they try and get them, get some career development, some some tips, things to do and things not to do. Mistakes you’ve made on team.

[00:28:29] Mistakes, I made those mistakes myself and forgive me, I have already thankfully those mistakes are not with me anymore, but it was I think it was those hiring too quickly. I think for me, the main thing to do is to have a good interview with that person and also have a trial day and see actually whether they are they walk the walk. They sometimes talk and talk and they have to talk and walk. They have to do it properly. And I think that is the main thing that you need to have them see what they’re doing, how they’re doing, how they relate to the people. I have always asked advice for my most trusted staff. How do you see her? Do you think she will be part of our team? You know, I always ask because at the end of the day, they’re also going to be working with them. So I want them also to be happy. And they are very good judge of character. So they will say, yeah, actually I think it’s fine.

[00:29:50] You talked about keeping them happy with education. All I could do to incentivise the team financially as well.

[00:29:58] I do. I think I paid very good wages. But just we don’t do bonuses or anything like that. No, no, I what I do is I give them the good lessons. I take them out for dinners, dreams. I have to leave. If I have to go to having a drink or something, I’m happy to leave my card number with the restaurant. They come, I’m doing whatever they want. So no, I think. No, we have, according to witnesses or anything like that, any more incentives apart from partisan games and having a good salary? I think sometimes I’ve mentioned this other stuff to all the colleagues of this. Oh, my gosh, you’re paying too much. But I don’t think so. I think you pay for what you get. I want to make sure that my staff is happy. At the moment. We’re approaching a very difficult situation with so many nurses or staff available to hire. So, of course, you want to keep your doors happy.

[00:31:15] Now, Gina, tell us a little bit about your practise, the type of practise type of treatment, so, you know, for certain types of treatments, like, for example, you know, you Invisalign, diamond provider, the platinum or whatever that is, do you do a lot of whitening? Is it mainly cosmetic or you just give me a brief overview of some of the stuff

[00:31:37] Does a lot of whitening

[00:31:41] Whitening? I, I was I always had that. I practise. We do absolutely have a little bit of everything. Yes. But what we also do is every single dentist that has a special interest. OK, so for example, in general, especially in the one so I’m now I’m why that point is the line. I have the cases, I am on the line. So I have a good reputation for the. Then with that type of treatment, the results of the after that. Why do you say Payman we do it in Lightsey who like all the time. So it is something that we are approaching from the patient’s going to be the one to have poisoning treatment. Then I have another dentist that she is also a general and she does a lot of cosmetic as well. But she also knows that she is only having an extended day. So she does a load of patients that so therefore for the campaign and especially interest. And then I have another dentist called Nicole. She’s also good, very good dental dentist who has special interest. So she does that. And I have a dentist, Brianna, I know you know, has well, Payman. And she is basically my do to help rely on this saline, but she’s also Dental. So she also to stop between the four of us. We kind of cater for the patients, the patients, and they have to leave the practise and to have different treatments. Our hygiene is that excellent hygiene. They do a very good Aryal treatments as well. So we have to be fair. We have a very good practise. Very close to where we find your speciality is

[00:34:03] To take you to take me through your Invisalign process. I know. For lots of dentists to speak to, they do it in so many different ways from that patient having a video consultation, seeing the treatment coordinator, having a scan, then seeing the dentist, and then things like Dental monitoring, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, in thing at the moment is how many Invisalign cases do you do a year and trying to trying to match that Oprah, you see that all over social and everyone has their own sort of approach to it. What’s the typical patient journey for you if a if a patient wants Invisalign?

[00:34:42] How do you find the patient in the first place? Let’s start with

[00:34:46] Where we are very fortunate that we have a very good reputation in the area. So there is a lot of warmth of mouth so they can be fed by friends or family or I do pay for the Google advertising on the moment. We just about to launch a Facebook campaign as well. Oh, yes, I’ve Google. A lot of the patients find us through Google and then have the option to have a video consultation or they have the option to go to face to face. At the moment, we are seeing the video consultations numbers go down. Will more people be happy to come for a face to face consultation for something that is very, very interesting? Is that because our website is very clear on how much money you would charge? What is my expertise? The cases I have done, the majority of the patients that come to us is because they are going to be paying the deposit on that appointment when they come for the consultation. So what we normally do, they if I have a special day that is only for consultations. No, all the treatment can be booked in that in that day.

[00:36:10] And basically, I welcome the patient. I like to be present. I am a very selfish person and I like patients to know, to get to know me and to comfort me, to get to know them. So I will say hello. Explain the procedure. And then I leave the room on my forty nine to the minute. She will then get on, take photos, take a stand and then answer any questions that the patient has. Then I come in and basically close the deal and then after that my if they don’t need approval going that they go ahead with a treatment, they basically go through my physician co-ordinator and she will do follow ups and e-mails and calls, you know, the normal thing. But one thing that is really, really good is that actually my present co-ordinator, she she takes pride on her numbers. And every month she goes, we have done lots of these numbers or that number. So she’s also a very enthusiastic part of the process. So that’s quite a lot.

[00:37:19] We do us very, very similar, actually. We have these are almost called like a pilot, co-pilot. The easiest way of post consultation consultations will be dentists. The nurse hand over to nurse, nurse takes over. So every nurse is like a mini TCO, right. Rather than there being just a specific tyko. So each nurse has the ability to be able to graduate, like you said before, that not just doing the suction. Right. They’re involved in the whole process in terms of that process. So when you leave the room and it’s just the nurse and the patient, what are you doing at that point? Do you see another patient with another nurse?

[00:37:57] So, you know, I don’t really have the availability to do that because are fully involved. You know, I get on and do my notes or my work with my ex. Oh, yes, definitely. I utilise that time to get on with things.

[00:38:18] Yeah. So when you say close the deal. I know what you mean by that, but how do you differentiate yourself from the next Invisalign user? Because for me, the stronger the brand is, the harder it is for the dentists to differentiate themselves. And you said you’ve got a great reputation. I know just by being in that building with you guys once once someone’s been in there and all that, they get that magic. I get that. But what do you say to your patients about the difference between having Invisalign at your practise or having it somewhere else? I mean, for instance, what’s the deal in the first place? Is it a budget net? Thing is the quality level. How do you think it

[00:39:02] Is going to do it? You know, I have patients coming and saying, oh, are you going to give me whitening with it? And I said, no, I’ll give you a discount. Like we give them 20 percent discount to white to me. And I said, what? We don’t need to give you any extra because we know the quality of service. We will provide you as simple as that.

[00:39:25] People thinking Invisalign is Invisalign. It doesn’t matter that we know me and you get me. The dentist makes a massive difference, right? The plan makes a difference. Everything makes sense. But but you must get patients coming in saying, well, it’s Invisalign.

[00:39:40] It’s all. Yes, of course. They come and said, oh, well, but you only have to press that button on, send it to know five hours for an hour and a half an hour. And I think I’m very fortunate. I count my blessings because when people come to see us, they know who we are. They have already Google. They have already seen our reviews. They have. Right. We don’t need to sell them anything at that point. And that’s why I feel so fortunate that we have done all these job work beforehand. You know, that is I mean, I’m going to be there for a long time, probably since 2000, only six years. And we’re very fortunate.

[00:40:38] So let’s let’s get onto your plans for the future. I mean, for me, you’re a very driven leader, right. Business leader in so much as you’re one of the top Invisalign users in the country, you’re you’re I can see from my enlightened members, you’re one of the enlightened users. You said you do a little bit of everything. Seems like you do a lot of everything, but just a little bit. What are the plans for the future? Are you thinking, look, this is it. I’m happy with the way it is. And I can see you’ve expanded the practise to to the two floors and, you know, it feels maxed out now. Is that it? Or do you feel like you’re going to try and do a few more of these or how are you going to go?

[00:41:23] And no, I am very happy with the way things are. I have achieved a lot. I have no plans to open another practise. I do still have a little bit of room for growth within the practise. Now I’m going to try to to execute them. They’re trying to expand that part of the business. But I, I have always something on the minds of, you know, I have a moment on my speakerphone. So I now I have done a few webinars. I’m going to do another webinar and soon I’m also at the moment and working with as part of the educational committee, obviously the goal for me that that is something that I want to explore a little bit more. So personally, I think the moment I only work three days a week of the practise, I don’t have any more intentions to work for days until the fourth day. Is my hands doing my thing today? I’m doing my paperwork. I mean, I’m actually July is my first month that I’m not working on Fridays. I’m not even answering emails finance anymore. So I have decided to do that because of the pandemic. We were working 12 hour days and it is killing us. So we have change. And that’s why I think at the moment I want to be more of a work life balance. I want to spend a little more time with my family. I want to spend more time in my house because I enjoyed it when we were in the lockdown. So so now for me definitely is growing a few to maximise the space of depravities. So growing my my name as a speaker, as you know, and things like that,

[00:43:31] Tell us about the family.

[00:43:34] Well, I have two children, as I mentioned before. They are amazing. You know, my son just sees me. I’m very, very proud of him because we tell him that he had to find that he was going to have a summer job and he’s embracing it with both arms. He is doing some gardening two to three days a week and he’s loving it. So he has his first job. I mean, he’s amazing. And my daughter, Sophia, she just finished senior school, junior school. She just that was the last day of school. She had her party and now she’s going to seniors black. The big time has gone.

[00:44:26] So she’s 12

[00:44:28] Yet, but she will be 12 in September. She’s one of the oldest. Yes.

[00:44:33] Yes. I like what you said about your son and him getting the the job because of his parents, especially parents who can give their children who have got the means to give their children everything they want, not necessarily everything I need. I’ve often find myself having conversations with people of how do you keep them grounded and how do you teach them the value of money? Because often you can say, and I’ve had these conversations, go and get a job. Well, and then this book, if I can just ask you for everything. The thought process done through your head and is that part of the motivation around this is just to sort of give him the the I guess to learn about the value? Right.

[00:45:27] Yes, no, definitely false has been it, I didn’t want him to be all, so I’m just sitting there doing nothing I wanted him to on the stand work ethics. You know, one of the most important things that somebody can do, and I find it myself when, you know, when you find a nurse or a member of staff that they don’t know how to work hard because they have never done it. I want him to be able to to to to work hard and recognise he’s worth of money because money is everything what it used to be. And you have where it takes you most likely going to succeed.

[00:46:21] Where did your work ethic come from, Gino?

[00:46:24] Oh, definitely from my parents for sure, because they were the ones that that they that, you know, my dad, he wasn’t able to finish his studies until he had to go to work when she was old. And and he never will. Now, he has not stopped working. He is seventy eight years old, but he still works fine. And when we were little, I remember he used to come away with sacks of sweets on a little table outside the house and what people will buy sweets from us. So we have a lot of that also happening in our house. So yeah, I think even with this will not take anything for granted.

[00:47:16] So when we ask, we ask everyone this question and it’s a question around failure, around errors, clinical errors. Can you can you think of some clinical errors, some things that stand out in your head that you can share with us and something, you know, what did you learn from them? Because you a lot of times in medicine, we don’t we don’t discuss our errors.

[00:47:41] And he is one of my biggest errors when I started this, the line was to expect the human body to behave as. You know, you’re working on your phone, your paintings and your videos and you press a button on the computer. So easy to manipulate. So predictable. And then you go into the patient. I’m just thinking, why is this not moving? Why is this not happening? And it comes a lot of frustration with them. Then when you go back to the X-ray, you see go back to these close. And I didn’t notice that. So some time for me, some of my errors have been ignored when I started taking X-rays in a big tensing, that everything was going to be moved because they said they were going to be moved. So now something that I’ve always said to the patients, is that your plan, your treatment, when you are not a complete predictable is easy to manipulate. Your body is not. So we are going to have to, you know, not not bring the expectations down with not building them too high. I think, for me has been the biggest thing that I have learnt from my failures, because I always say, oh yes, I’m twenty five and we finish and then twenty five animals from my, you know, weight close to finish at all. So I think it’s managing the spectators. For me that has been the most my biggest learning

[00:49:23] Anything like, you know, drilled the wrong to so called the wrong to anything like that at all.

[00:49:31] It’s just not so far. Well yes. Yes I know what I have put anaesthetic on the wrong side. Yes. Yes. You know, what you do know is to seek to find if you are feeling want to see. And then I got turned around you to talk to the patient. OK, pay attention. Then I suddenly put the anaesthetic technological impetigo. Oh, my God. That happened once and I couldn’t believe it. I was so ashamed of myself that the patient was OK. And he said, Oh, well, at least you didn’t do the feeling given how long that has been. Yeah.

[00:50:19] Gina, what about what about being a woman in a juggling family life? Is it a coincidence that every single person who works in your practise is a woman? Is that on purpose or by mistake? I mean, you’ve got some wonderful women. I know Ali. I know Rihanna, your manager, as you said, Amanda, just special. But is it something you’ve done on purpose or.

[00:50:42] No, it just happened. You know, I always said to people we couldn’t do it. Sometimes it just happened. I personally think that I’m here is that we had made a big a big hit. If the patients like me the way I am, the way I treat them, I want them to experience that with every single member of my team. Yes. So therefore, I try to find people that are caring that are so Shuba are going to give them that experience and that it turns out to be women, you know, and. We haven’t done anything, we actually we were so close to hire a male, this didn’t work out for him, but we were going to break all female team because it was amazing. Dental less well, but he hasn’t happened yet. So I’m not saying he’s going to be forever. But we you know, we love being a women’s team. I’m very proud of who we are. Together, we empower each other. We can change in the changing room without any male coming to the room. We can talk about periods, menopause, so many things without any reservations. Guess we are very, very happy as we are at the moment.

[00:52:21] Have you ever had a man?

[00:52:23] Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, good. I had one dentist that worked with me for I that if you work with me for about four or five years and then after that, I have had you few male dentist, but he just it just didn’t work out. You know, when you try to I’m sure you have heard she came to train my team a few times to hospitals. I think through the year we went a year programme on actually many things I learnt from her kind of pointed to make big changes of the practise and is when I one day I said, you’re going, you’re going, you’re going. You know, it was just like, I’m going to change this and I’m going to make the most of this advice. And when I realise if people like me and they are happy to see my patients and I’ve been a dentist for 20 years, why not? I can apply myself. Why don’t I just find people that are like me, you know, like me, have things in common? And yes, that has been my secret until now,

[00:53:48] Gina, during the pandemic, we were donating to space to hospitals and all that. And you did a delpit. And I particularly remember thinking someone is as busy as you in the situation that you are with a family and all that, and you got in your car and drove and found the right place and all that. You get involved in charities or giving or volunteering or anything like that.

[00:54:15] Yes, yes. Many, many years we have had our charity of the year and we have donated a lot of money. And I’m a little bit biased here because I have done a lot of charity for Mexico. We have been to help children in poverty. Also, we help to rebuild some shelters after the earthquake in 2019. And now the one the charity that I really, really like very, very much is well on wheels. And that, I think, is one of the most amazing charities that I have I have spoken to with just about and we are getting involved with. So, again, that we like to do a little bit.

[00:55:10] That doesn’t come from if you get up and go, is that like in Mexico where everyone has to come and come together to solve a problem?

[00:55:19] I don’t know where it comes from. To be honest, because I never done any charity in Mexico. I never did when I when I was living in Mexico, I never thought. But I don’t know. I think when when I started in official state, I also started getting very involved with the Mexican Chamber of Commerce, the Mexican embassy and councilmen. So through them is what I have seen the need to support all this on. So I have done that. I have.

[00:55:59] What does that mean? Involved with the Chamber of Commerce, other business owners in the UK from Mexican origins?

[00:56:08] Exactly. That is this is basically Mexicans in the UK that are promoting Mexico in some ways and also people from the UK that support businesses in Mexico. So Mexican Chamber of Commerce is very equal number of British Mexican people coming together. And, you know, I’m very proud to say that I want the Mexican Entrepreneur of the Year award in 2017. And it was great and it was all because of the charity work that we’ve done through Bishopsgate. That’s OK.

[00:56:49] Oh, is that right?

[00:56:51] Yeah. Amazing.

[00:56:53] You’ve won a lot of awards in the past. You know, if you like, figured out how to do the entries. How does that work? You want to know how many of you won? Loads and loads, right?

[00:57:03] We have won. We have won best practise in London. Best patient care, best team London, best in National Wide. I have we have been finalist in many awards. I, I don’t know, we’ve been knocking

[00:57:24] Just the winning. Did you do you find that the process of getting entering.

[00:57:29] Oh. Is very hard work.

[00:57:31] But does it somehow. Somehow it can’t just be. Is it just for the, for the, for the prise or is it. The process itself is useful to the team

[00:57:40] I think and well this is the thing we were very because we are a team of its own and do things, you know, we do the McMillan-Scott thing morning and they the some that they all that and I always take photos of it. So when, when, when we decided we were going to apply for these work, we have done all the work already. You know, I was just putting things together and the same happens when I do the static Dental awards. I’ve been very fortunate to be a finalist for a few. I’m hoping this year something nice will happen in September. But I never, ever said a case, for example, thinking I’m going to win an award winning not until I finish a case. And I think, wow, that was a really good case to talk to was an award or because of that, I always, always document everything. I take photos. I’m kind of prepared without knowing I prepared myself. So, I mean,

[00:58:49] The clinical sites, the clinical side there. But I hope that it’s somewhere in your education career that sort of seems to be starting and you’re lecturing. I hope you do include something on managing teams because it sounds like it comes naturally to you. And in a way, you sort of you don’t know you’re doing it the way you think about it. But, you know, when I come, there is something special there. Yeah. From the dentist to the receptionist to the to the manager. Everyone’s super happy moving in the same direction. And that itself is a massive skill that’s lacking in our industry, in our profession. You know, I mean, Prav and I talk to hundreds of dentists and it’s missing in most practises, most practises it’s say. So I would if I were you, I would include that in you in the education piece. Don’t just talk about moving about the other side of it, too.

[00:59:49] Sometimes it’s it’s hard to. But Little Junior, because I speak to a lot of practises who has perhaps the follow me though. The code is the place where you’ve got a super happy team. You know, it’s running like a well oiled machine. And when you ask them to break it down, what is it? Yeah, the majority of people say just be nice to people. Right. Just to treat people the way you expect to be treated, et cetera, et cetera. And I think. Times it’s just inherent, it’s in your DNA, right, and it’s coming from your upbringing or your family or the way you’ve been treated or the fact that you, a nurse, if you could bottle that oil and distribute it in a way that was it could be replicated. I think that would be the most valuable thing any practitioner could could get above and beyond is where you stick your attachments. And this is how you see your line is

[01:00:46] Definitely one of the things that we’re always talking about. One thing that I wanted to mention is that at the moment I am in that we I would you know, we would discover or reinvent ourselves a few times like this as a business is no fun whatsoever. And after winning so many awards, we still have a very nice core team together. But unfortunately, after the pandemic and I was I was saying before having made bad decisions, at the moment we are struggling to find two good lessons to come and join us and put us in a lot of stress on the other team members because they have to be working doubly hard because we are working with temps and they don’t care about protocols or how to, you know, that they come and go without any regard or consequences the next day, know whether or not they don’t care. So at the moment, we are we are suffering that kind of situation where I talk to the team a few months ago and said, OK, I’m going to be a very hard ride because we need to find the right people what we have done before we can do it again. And I’m sure we will do it again, but is not rushing to find somebody just for finding it needs to be the right person.

[01:02:31] I’m seeing this nationally, yet every practise, most practises, I’m speaking to the same getting hold of a nurse and there’s less availability right at the moment. And the biggest problem, if I speak to any practitioner that I’m coaching or helping with business development, the one thing that they’re struggling with is the most common problem is at this moment in time, getting a nurse, let alone a good one, is difficult, really, really difficult.

[01:03:07] It’s it’s a double whammy, not only the pandemic and I mean, it’s it’s a lot more difficult being in this post pandemic than prevent panic. Right. Not only that, Brexit as well. I mean, we’re hiring and this is nowhere near the same number and quality of people. I’m not looking nursing. I’m thinking about the customer care that I’m hiring for. There’s just the number. And the quality has gone down since Brexit. I think there’s a bunch of people who’ve decided either not to come or will leave. And one of the Jena.

[01:03:44] Yes, I think one of the important things we have heard, such as Prav said, is not only the suffering, the bodies and many, many passages from the same, the same, but one I’m actually one of my nurses that she only started with me in July last year after the pandemic. We lost because one of her friends decided to do temp nursing until is a lot less work is easy money, so on to temping. So that’s why they doing. But it is a shame because I know that that’s what’s going to be excellent if she being young, I’m just qualified. What had that quality is in the right place to go to next week. But then I think what if I’m going to have to use this stupid mask and I’m going to have to do all the paperwork and I have to I find myself a job that I don’t have to do that or work. If I’m going to have to do it, they’re going to pay me three or four pounds more than pay now. And so fortunately, they but it’s happening at the moment.

[01:05:11] We like to. And this costs the same question

[01:05:16] That I’ve got. One final question before we before we move to the the big question, which is a conversation around exit. Gina, I’m speaking to a lot of business owners who are sort of transitioning to that stage of their career where they’re looking to exit so that practise selling to millions whatever and disappear into the sunset or stay in the practise and reduce their that time. There is something that you consider to be thought about what what is the big dream, the big exit strategy. If you could wave the magic wand and say, if I was living my perfect life and maybe were already doing it, what would you be doing? Like working one day a week and spending four days with family? What have you thought about exit strategy?

[01:06:05] I have thought about what type of exit? No exit. Yes. What I want to leave often. Yes. And I have always worked since I was in uni. I had a job and I don’t think I will be a happy housewife only I think I will be very happy working two or three days a week talking for a company or doing some volunteering or things like that. Because I am that type of person, I’m always wanted to be involved in things. You know, as you said, I’m a very busy woman, but how I did it, I don’t know what I organise my thoughts as he was fighting for yesterday. And, you know, I still find time to do so when I decide to sail the practise. I think I would like to have a similar number of days working to me. But then that means that I will not have to do that for me to feel like weight off my shoulders. And no, I think I will always be busy anyway. Working.

[01:07:26] Your dad’s working into his seventies, right? And it doesn’t sound like there’s any signs of stopping, so I’m sure you’re taking inspiration from there.

[01:07:34] Anyway, it’s been a lovely story, Gina. Love you. Story, your passion, the excellence part of it, the joy you get out of it and put it into it. It’s it’s just palpable. Have you that it’s a privilege to know you. Prav has his final questions. Dental happy questions.

[01:07:59] Oh, am I in trouble?

[01:08:02] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just just some questions for reflection and, you know, imagine, imagine. It was your last day on the planet. And you had your loved ones around you, the people that matter the most, and you were going to leave them with three pieces of advice. What would those pieces of advice be?

[01:08:30] Well, I think the first one will be, no matter what job you do, do it properly. That would be my first one. My second one will be. No matter how much money you get paid or do what you want to do. I’m so fortunate to be a dentist and love what I do, what I couldn’t imagine doing something I don’t know. So for them, I would like that to be happy with what they do. And the third one will be. Enjoy. Enjoy life with friends, with family. Say yes to going out and say yes to staying at home if that is what you want to do.

[01:09:25] Lovely, lovely, Jane. Thank you for that. And how would you like to be remembered? So Gina was.

[01:09:34] I want to see a crazy Mexican dentist if they

[01:09:42] Really, really and just one final question for fun. Let’s say you had one month left. How would you how would you spend that month? What what would you be doing in those last 30 days?

[01:09:58] I will probably recreate one of my best holidays with my family that when we went to Cyprus, we didn’t leave the hotel in 14 days and we have the same routine every day. I think it was 12 o’clock at sangrias time and maybe now will be 12 o’clock and we will be our time or something like that. But I will spend it with my my two children, my husband, my mom, my dad, with just doing that, you know, like enjoying some music. Food brings happy memories. Yes, definitely.

[01:10:48] How often do you get back to Mexico? You know,

[01:10:52] Normally about every year and a half to two years when the kids were little younger. I used to want to be there every year, but then you realise they. So that’s nice destinations to go. So again, every year and a half to two is a good balance for us.

[01:11:11] It’s been so lovely having you. Thank you so

[01:11:13] Much for keeping it, and I might ask you to copy and paste that text message to me for when we make our trip to Mexico.

[01:11:20] Oh, I know. Thank you guys for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you.

[01:11:27] Thank you.

[01:11:30] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:11:46] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it

[01:12:00] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:12:11] And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] This guy pops up on my Facebook news feed story feed, call it whatever you want, and it’s it’s boxing bouts. After bout training, they started the other. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was was not just know skirt over the discipline, the training, the hard work, the physical enjoyment and all the rest of it while I was away from here is that, you know, we’re completely different human beings in the sense that he’s going to stand in front of someone he knows. This guy wants to knock seven bells out of Ymir. But there’s no fear. Yeah, I would literally be at that point knocking my knees together, trembling. Yeah, but boxes are built differently. Yeah, and that was clear from that conversation with him is like there’s an element of anxiety and adrenaline and all the rest of it. And that’s the healthy piece of the build up to it. Right. But actually, he’s not scared. There’s no fear. This is Dental Leaders,

[00:01:12] The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your host’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:27] Welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast for this episode. This is Prav hasn’t been with me for a few months. We decided just to sit down together and and and go through some of the things we’ve learnt from the guests in the past few episodes since our famous Queen’s Speech episode that we had when Boris shut the whole country down. And, you know, some of this has been people who’ve we’ve known, some of them been people we haven’t known. What stood out for you Prav in that in this period between the last time we spoke and Christmas when there was that shut down till now, was supposed to that for you? I think to me there’s been an overt bit taken away from like what stood out in terms of individual stories and things like that. Much more to do with the overall feeling of returning back to normality with you. You know, the conversations I’m having with people, certainly when, you know, when it comes from a business perspective, was really stood out for me, has been this acceleration, right. This growth that a lot of practises and a lot of our clients are experiencing also how to deal with that and coping with that overwhelmed. I think what was really stood out is the people who grabbed that opportunity by the horns and run with it, making hay while the sun shines type scenario. And then the individuals or business owners who say, hey, this is too much, I need to calm down and step back from those opportunities.

[00:02:56] Right. And thus, you know, those are the two main camps that I’m seeing at the moment, people who are grabbing and running with it, and people who are just sort of saying, hey, this is too much, we’ll create a waiting list. We can’t cope with growth. We won’t scale. We’ll just deal with it. And they will be the same people maybe in 12 months time or whatever. We’ll be picking up the phone saying I need more patience. Yeah. Although, you know, the natural history of a practise can be many things, can’t it? It doesn’t have to be in a particular particular path. I mean, I hear what you’re saying because I hear stories of people who’ve taken taken whatever reserves they had or some people obviously did quite well from the overpayments over the lockdown period and have invested and grow growing. Their businesses mean growing their premises and and growing their marketing budgets. And I learnt that from my side. I can see the the bleaching and the composites side of it more clearly. I guess you’ve got a good view on the Invisalign, although the implants and all of that. But all of it seems to be going through the roof, not just high ticket dentistry. Right. So the big ticket items starting from the smaller big ticket items like GDP also. Right. Starting from around, say, three and a half or whatever people charge all the way up north of, you know, 30, 40 K for immediate loading implant dentistry.

[00:04:21] We’re seeing that going through the roof. Right. But just going back to what we said earlier, there is no right or wrong way of navigate in this scenario, OK? Because some people during, say, the lock down before this whole thing took off, I’ve actually had a reassessment of the life. Right. You don’t want to work as hard. Yeah, they’ve sat back and appreciated whether it’s time with their family taking their foot off the pedal, reducing their stress levels. And these opportunities come and they decide actively not to take it. I’m not saying that’s wrong. But then there’s the others who have got this almost like energetic growth mindset mentality who just say, hey, there’s an opportunity here. The sun is shining and it’s going to go down one day. I’m going to make the most of it. And we’re seeing we’re seeing from the patient perspective, I think we’ve spoke about this in the past, the the this overwhelming demand, an interest for patients wanting to spend money on their teeth. Right. Put things right. Whether it’s functional or cosmetic. And where is all this money come from? Is it the Furlaud fund? And we could argue that perhaps, you know, there’s been the fact that, you know, people haven’t been able to spend the money, go on holidays, blah, blah, blah, and they’ve accumulated some savings. But we’re seeing loads of older people. Right, retired people who are, you know, or pensioners and that sort of age.

[00:05:44] Well, you know, I don’t think their spending habits have changed much, but we’re seeing a larger influx of those people who are saying, you know what? I’m going to invest 15, 20, 30, 40 calientes now, and we’re getting less knows or we’re getting less maybe or less. I’ll think about it more. I’ll go for it. And in your business, you’re seeing record winning numbers, right? Yes. Through the roof is through the roof. I mean, if you told me we were going to be this busy now back in the shutdown period, I wouldn’t have believed you at all. But back to what you were saying. I think there has been any way to spend your money as well, Prav you literally flow out of it. If I was an older person, a 60 year old guy who’s got a bit of cash in the bank, whatever, haven’t been able to go to restaurants, haven’t been able to spend it on holidays, you know, you might even be putting big purchases like car purchases and things to one side in this period where, you know, you’ve been focussed at home. I think the home DIY kind of spend. I speak to people in that area who are doing very well, but also, you know, you haven’t got anywhere to spend the money. So probably where it is, there’s only there’s only so many capacity’s and digestives you can get through a home. And that’s not going to cost you a fortune, right? A lot of our own.

[00:07:00] So should we go through some of the episodes or should we now continue talking about this? Yeah, let’s let’s go through this. Since we did the which was it? I think it was episode sixty three. Sixty sixty four. Where. Bloody hell. Sixty four episodes. Does it seem like yesterday we started this right. Yeah. I mean I was in sixty four episodes. Right. But looking back it and say hey let’s go back to episode sixty four. So episode sixty five was with Nic and Sanjay Sethi. I mean Nic said to me, is this almost a newcomer because we’re getting older. But Sanjay said he was one of the first people who really inspired me in composites. It was before we were selling composites. We were only doing whitening systems at that point. And I clearly remember the first time I saw a composite that was in a completely invisible and completely polished was the lecture that he gave at, I want to say maybe two thousand four, 2003 around then really beautiful. And he really is one of the top dentists in the country, does a lot of implant work and at the Square Mile clinic that they’re both that they’ve been joined by a couple of our other other guests on the show, Elaine Moe and now Amit Patel as well. But I was really interested in and in the way that Nic was talking about how Sanjay mentored him into that practise and what he had to do in that practise just to just to make just earn his stripes, you know, before they sort of he’s gone off in his minimally invasive direction.

[00:08:45] So what do you think of them Prav you know them? Well, I don’t. But, you know, the one thing I’ll say is that, you know, brothers, brothers in arms and all the rest of it. Right. Being inspired by your older brother and working with your brother, the only the only parallel I can draw to that is me and Kailash. Right. And for those that have heard the episodes and those that have heard me speak, I think it’s pretty clear we’re like chalk and cheese. So if we were brothers in arms, working together in the same business, I can tell you there would be fireworks, right? It just wouldn’t work. We’ve got different values, different dynamics. And we love each other to bits. Right. But we couldn’t work together. And so so in this in this relationship, what did you notice from the did we have the situation where younger brother was looking up to Big Brother or what was the biggest difference really between them and you guys? This is a massive age difference between so a bit more like father and son than than brother and brother. I think Nic really always looked up to to Sanjay and, you know, what a great example to have for him. Essentially, for the first two years, maybe do everything

[00:09:57] I have to learn it the way Sanjay understood it, and I have to then obviously bring on what I knew from courses and learning and I was say the end those areas. I was doing everything that I did. And then before I started getting into surgery and implants, I suddenly thought to myself, well, I’d love to be a partner in this grandma one day. I mean, I love the practise dearly. It’s been such an instrumental part of my life. I love the team. I love everything about practise. And I thought, well, if I’m going to be a partner here, it doesn’t make sense to be exactly the same as Sanjay because Sanjay says he’s got his patient base for 20 years and it be exactly the same.

[00:10:38] And so we then have a good discussion.

[00:10:41] And I decided, well, I’m not going to go down the implants route, know never say never. Right. But Sanjay’s I’ve never I’ve got a good night with restorative dentistry. I’d like to think I can produce some nice results now, always learning.

[00:10:55] But for me to then get to that next level to where Sanjay’s surgically, that’s a whole nother career. And what Sanjay has developed with his handling of soft

[00:11:06] Tissues, it’s not just placing an implant in his vision or his handling of soft tissue is grafting.

[00:11:12] It’s such a niche that I think he’s so good. Why do I want to go down that path when he’s the man? He is the man. Let’s talk about Episode 66 with Max, Max, Max Basini bazoo, Quini Basuki. You know, when I’ve spoken to Max, right, I said, listen, your first name is really easy, Max. It’s my you know, I think it’s your Starbucks name. Right. And I sometimes you have my name right. But how do I how to pronounce the surname. Right. And he says, just think about zucchini and stick a bat in front of the rights of Basil Keaney. But, you know, a guy who’s got some serious Italian flair and has come from, you know, his early days, his background is, you know, learning how to sell businesses. I think he started off in in the health care, selling a gym right back in the early days and then moved on to dentistry. And the conversations I’ve had with this guy is that he really does know the buying and selling of practise business really well. And more importantly, he’s very, very much geared towards maximising value for clients. Right. He recently sold and I’m sure and he’s happy for me to say this, but he recently helped to sell and the most beautiful practise in Essex advanced Dental. Oh, yeah, both of our favourites, fair practise and human being. Right. What a great guy. Right. But, you know, he sold on this practise and I remember this conversation and, you know, and they would pick up the phone to me and he says, Prav, I think now is the time. And then and then we spoke numbers and he said it’s a pretty good number that I’m happy with that. And and we had the conversation.

[00:13:09] We said, look, should you hire somebody to sell? You practise or shouldn’t you? And my answer to that was, look, we don’t do this for a living. You do teeth. I do marketing, business coaching, whatever. Right. And you need a professional who does this day in, day out. And their value add is whatever number you’ve got sat on the table today, they need to elevate the whatever deal you’ve got on the table today. They need to elevate that and whatever their fee structure is, needs to be a no brainer. Yeah. And it’s it’s one percent. Right. It’s nothing nice in comparison to the big picture. It’s nothing. Right? Yeah. I think there’s a lot of people all he has to do is get two percent more for the practise and now it’s been worth it. Right. It’s absolutely nothing. And I think I come across and I have numerous conversations with people who were going or who are having conversations where the buyer has gone direct to practise on, OK, they’re a little bit wet behind the ears. They don’t know how. They’re not professional negotiators. They may think they are because they’re selling treatment every day or whatever. Right. But but I think it’d be very naive for somebody to sell their practise without at least speaking to a broker and seeing what’s possible. So when when a client comes to me and goes, you know, what is it worth me paying somebody to do this? No. One, they take away the pain and the unknowns of that. But number two, it’s a no brainer because whatever their fee structure is, they should be they should easily be able to earn that out in the price structure.

[00:14:43] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I like to say I have a good relationship with with most of the groups and the. Titian’s team and Yamane guys and ladies working in the groups when they see May involving involvement, my involvement instantly become aware that it’s going to be a tough negotiation and it’s not always the case if you go and approach them direct. Most of the time at Prav persona, we do this once in a lifetime that we said they practise and they will, and we only have one opportunity and they get an offer and then maybe think that’s the best and final and maybe they don’t. You know, they might be great clinicians by the grace and negotiating. I don’t know what buttons to push in my experience and my background. Obviously spying practises. So I know what buttons to push in order to increase the value. You know, what can improve evaluations and negotiation. I know we know what we can we can achieve. So sometimes we see an initial offer and it’s not just about the price, but also about the terms and the amount of the UK on the deferred basis. In terms of example, I can give you an example, which is quite exceptional, really. There was the practise in Buckinghamshire who came to us with an offer on a table for one point eight million.

[00:16:05] So I analysed the figures and then of course, we can talk about how we value and prices in a minute. And then I thought is a good offer, but I think we can improve on that offer a one point eight. And the way that you can improve is by creating a nice competitive tension, not just with that group by introduce either two or three potential buyers that you think that a good match. And we did so. So the consequently we started to get offers and the same group who offer one point eight and it was the best and final couple of months later they offered two point four. So obviously wasn’t the best and final. But then eventually the deal closed at two point seven, which I was very surprised by. I think with it, I think I’m pleased with what we did there and the clients will play. So you sold ultimately ended up selling to another group, not to the same group. So your one and a half percent save, I would say, is more than justified by involving someone like us that can introduce and bring to the table different groups and sometimes also trying to maximise on the current offer that you might have from from the same group.

[00:17:16] So even if you may deal with a corporate or a buyer, it’s still not too late to engage a professional like yourself.

[00:17:25] Now, it’s now obviously you need to trying to find the balance in not to upset the buyer, but in your best interest, you need to maximise your chances, your opportunity, and is probably once in a lifetime opportunity. And it’s an exciting time to sell your business. And you want to make sure that you, especially if you ended up working with the group, there is not a sentiment in the time in the way that you value that you got. So you need to make sure that you get the right value before you sell, realising it after by talking to your friends and say, actually, I could sell for more or my conditions could have been better. So you get to explore all avenues and make sure you get a good deal in terms of value and in terms of terms.

[00:18:10] So what’s not for me? I mean, if you remember, we had and the acting as well from Frank, their associates. But what stood out for me with Max was there was the thing he was talking about, like a beauty parade way of selling a practise, of bringing in lots of different interested parties and getting a better price for it that way, which was which is an interesting thing. And the other thing that you said, for every pound that you save, that can translate to seven pounds extra on the value of the nine or whatever, whatever online. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that starts becoming an interesting conversation. I mean, I’m speaking to now probably half a dozen of my clients who have reached that point where they’re ready to hang up their drills. Right. Or at least transition towards that point. And it’s funny they’re having conversations about should I put the staff wages up because it’s what I’ve always done. Right. But if I let’s let’s say the staff wages go up by. Ten grand. OK, I’ve I just lost. Eighty eight, yeah, yeah, I’ve just lost eight to 10 times that, yeah. My advice is. When you’re selling your business, the deal isn’t done until the money’s in your bank to carry on running that business as though you would be ruining it to grow it, because if that deal doesn’t go through and you’re building that excitement and that hope up to the point where you get to the last point and then the rug is pulled, there’ll be so many business decisions you would have made where at that point you’ll be better off.

[00:19:52] But you kept holding yourself back for that potential sale. Do you know of any stories where people sold their practise and then gave a bonus to their staff at that point? No, no, no. I don’t know any stories about that. But to be honest, I don’t know a lot of people who have sold their practise. I think I think the clients that I’ve been working with for sort of north of a decade, between 10 to 15 years are currently at that stage where they’re considering exit or working towards that or planning towards that or having those conversations. And so it’s all it’s all quite new to me. Right. I’m learning a lot along the way. And I think it’s very exciting and interesting, just the psychology that comes around. Except what does that mean? What does retirement mean? How does that affect your family dynamics? Right. Having, you know, meeting up. I met with Andy Moore and went to his house shortly after he sold and had some really interesting conversations with him about what, you know, you sit down and say, Andy, what’s it feel like now not to be the boss? OK, what does it feel like to have the extra lump sum sitting in your bank account, in the security and everything? And do you feel like you’ve achieved the dream? OK, and it’s really, really interesting conversations I had there where sometimes you know what you expect and the reality is quite different, you know? Yeah, I think.

[00:21:25] Well, Andy, Andy achieved the dream many years ago. The first that’s a very, very, very different you know, I’ll tell you I’ll tell you what Andy said. I’m sure you won’t mind. I won’t go into detail on everything. But, you know, he shared with me that you get to the point where you sell your business for for a sum that is life changing, OK? And your friends tell you, you know, when you sell the business by a drinka. Yeah, buy your dream house, yeah, yeah, do all these things go on an amazing holiday, right? We’re talking about Andy Moore. Here he goes. He goes to Necker Island on holiday every year. Yeah, he’s got a beautiful home. Yeah. A beautiful, beautiful home is the dream home. Right. And he’s had the dream castle. So so for him, it’s like, well, what’s next? But I think, you know, the one thing that I walked away from that conversation, he says he said he felt a sense of security for him, his family, his life, the hard work he put in.

[00:22:32] Yeah. For many generations and generations ahead. Absolutely. Absolutely. For those interested Episode 10 with Andy, Andy Moore, one of the best of whatever, both of our favourite people. And you know, it’s a good one to listen to Episode 10. Let’s move on to the next episode with the shoddy, shoddy, managerial, shoddy and interesting person. She I’m very much in touch with her now, but she did this very interesting thing where she started social media during lockdown and she didn’t have an Instagram account or not. Not a proper one. Not Dental one anyway, before before lockdown. And she certainly didn’t have a ticktock. And I guess she’s one of these sort of high achievers and she’s decided to overlook town to start making content and interesting Prav. The numbers are probably different now. But when when I spoke to her, her ticktock following was over one hundred and twenty thousand, but her Instagram was around twelve thirteen thousand and she was doing similar work for both goes to show the reach of the different platforms. She’s definitely now out there. But so interesting to see that within such a short period you can make a name on the platforms with a bit of focus. She lucked out a little bit with some of the sort of more, you know, with the way Tick-Tock works. If it’s a juicy headline, sometimes people follow it in the turkey teeth and the the one the pegs that they were showing and all of that and just the great conversation with the young dentist going places.

[00:24:07] I feel. I feel with Chardy. What do you think the future for her is? I think that, you know, she’s she’s one of those she’s taking it in her, taking the time, trying to do the jobs that she wants to do rather than what she needs to do. She’s working two days a week and focussing on the content side a bit more. And in the conversation, she said, look, I’ve got a practise in my head that I want to one day do. And, you know, what I’m interested in, though, is, you know, we own many small Makov when Kunal does his marketing, but he always asks who he is, go to Dental account, and generally less than half the room have a Dental Instagram account. And he’s like, oh, why don’t you should know. But what I’m interested in is in, what, a short period of time? I mean, look down a year ago. Yeah. And what a short period of time. You can make a massive impact here. If people find your content valuable, your valuable content. It’s not it’s not just about consistency, Stephanie. About consistency, but not but not only about consistency is about engaging with people.

[00:25:15] I think you have to spend enough time consuming the platform to learn what works, what doesn’t work, the trends. I think it’s important to jump on the trends and that kind of thing. But, you know, I found that I was spending like two or three hours a day on that anyway, so I might as well be creating because if you see enough tick tock videos, you’ll want to create one. If you see the same trends, you’ll think about your take on the trend. So, yeah, definitely. I don’t think

[00:25:41] I know this is a million dollar question,

[00:25:44] But

[00:25:44] What would you say makes a video go viral?

[00:25:49] Yeah, I’m OK.

[00:25:50] I’m asking you for the answer, but what would you say from what you’re learning?

[00:25:55] Yeah. So I think you see

[00:25:58] Title seems to work well.

[00:26:00] Do you see a title works very well. I think, you know, I think even I don’t think anyone fully understands how the platform works. So one video could go super viral, but another similar video could not say. I think a lot of it is down to luck and it’s about producing enough content consistently for one of them to inevitably go viral. But with me, to be honest, the first video that I thought had gone viral was 80000 views and then that the ultimate was the eight million views. But the crowd’s opinion is one. But I think you need to be divulging some sort of juicy information. You need to grab people’s attention. And it’s about, you know, with ticktock, it’s about retention of the viewer. So it’s about time. And how long they spent viewing that video, how many times they watch it, whether they send it to other people, how many people like it commented. That kind of stuff plays a big part in how viral that video goes. So, for example. That video is incredible video, it was filmed for and will give you analytics that will tell you how long they’ve spent, people have spent watching that video. So a lot of people had shared it with each other. They sent it and that’s how it went. Stupefy. It was on every kind of, you know, like like Beigel, all these kind of external places as well. A lot of

[00:27:14] You on the news,

[00:27:15] Right? Yeah, I was in Russia TV as well. I don’t know how I would like to instead look

[00:27:21] For people who don’t know, just go through what happened with that, because that was like a Katie Price turkey video thing was.

[00:27:27] Yeah. So it was a on ticked off. There is one of the trends. So I’m ticked off for people who aren’t familiar with the platform, a lot of content is for entertainment and a lot of content is for hacks and DIY kind of stuff. So, you know, cutting hair recipes, that kind of thing. And a trend with regards to teeth and health was that people were going to turkey, shaving their teeth down and saying these are videos, and then showing that before and after and their sharp teeth. And this wasn’t anything new. It was on Instagram for a while before it went on on ticktock. And I had seen a lot of people kind of comment on this. A lot of dentists were rightly speaking up about it, saying, look, these are these are not many of these are crowds. But I was kind of very apprehensive about talking about it because I didn’t want it to sound like I was saying, you know, dentists in certain countries were bad and they didn’t want to sound like I was promoting, you know, a line bleach and bond kind of protocols. So I was quite apprehensive about it. And then I came across this video and I’ll take a lot of my photos with in videos that are about to you to get my opinion on it. And if a video goes viral and everyone sees it and more people are attacking you in that video.

[00:28:31] So I came across this video of a girl who was very young and she had she actually had beautiful, perfect teeth. They were lying. They were very, very white and they didn’t have any major issues. And she had gotten all of them shaved, though, I think at least five to five and had crowns on all of them saying, look at my opinions. And a lot of people were commenting, saying, oh, that is great, but you get this done. And it was really scary to see young people looking up to these in quotation marks, influences and wanting to do the same thing. So I made a video saying, look, these are not videos, these are crowns and these are the risks. You know, you can get nerve damage. You’re going to need root canal treatment. You’re going to need to replace these. And I think, you know what you were saying about juice juice content. I said you might end up needing dentures by age 14. And I think that’s what it took to kind of make people realise that actually. Yeah. That actually this isn’t like just getting false things is actually a big deal. And I got loads of messages from people like loads and loads, like hundreds of messages from people on Instagram saying I had no idea. I’ve been thinking of doing this. Thank you for sharing this. I was literally minutes away from booking my flight to go to Turkey to get this done.

[00:29:41] And there was one message from I think it was over Christmas. There was one message from this girl who was actually in Turkey, and she said, look, I’ve come here with my boyfriend to get our teeth done. And they’ve just told him he needs four root canals before he gets his crowns done. I’m really panicking. I’m really scared. What should I do? I treatments tomorrow. And I was like, there’s literally nothing I can do for you. Now you’re in Turkey, you’re already there. Like, this is the kind of stuff you should be thinking about before you go over there to get your teeth done. And the maintenance like who’s going to who’s going to pay for the maintenance? Do you understand? Do you realise this may need to be replaced? And so it went viral, shared on every kind of platform that I can think of. It was one of the trending news articles on Apple News. My dad actually was going through avenues and he was like, this is where you are. My brother came home. It was like like your like lad Bible. So it was my five minutes of fame. But I’m glad it got the attention that it needed because it made people realise that these aren’t just, you know, stuff you get done and just forget about it.

[00:30:42] Look, look, just just take a step away from from Shaddai produced an amazing concert. Right. And let’s focus on Meenu. And I’m not trying to blow smoke up either of our backsides at this point. Right. But the content of this in the content that we produce on this episode, which has got very little to do about me new but more to do with the stories that we pull out of the guests. OK, and the stories that they share has been so impactful for so many individuals. So, you know, there’s a number of dentists who’ve taken their time out to just send me a direct message and say, Prav, you know what? I listen to you and pay on my, you know, weekly whatever run and the morning walk, whatever. Yeah. I’m thank you so much for sharing that pull up to one side. Right. The purpose of this podcast has never been commercial. Payman, when we started this for Dental Leaders, we decided right in the beginning, no advertized, we weren’t going to market enlightened, we weren’t going to market me, et cetera, et cetera. And we just let the conversation flow around the guests. However. What has come as a result of that is I probably get the vast majority of new business coming towards now right through the podcast, and it’s because we’re producing powerful content. Yeah, yeah, I think it’s on this platform, it for me, it seems easy to produce good content, but personally I find it very hard on on Instagram, you know, it depends how you weigh it.

[00:32:26] Right. I made an Instagram content, all the rest of it. I don’t have the patience and all the time and I don’t have the skill. Yeah. Then you look at someone like Shaddai, you look at someone like Rohner who can just pull out a phone and produce 20 stories a day. Whole different skill sets talent, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there’s no way I can do anything like that. But sit here and shoot the breeze with you or another guest. It’s it’s just part and parcel of easy work. Yeah, other uses were episode 68, what’s driving Dev Patel? Do you know? Definitely I do. And I’ve met him several times. And the one thing that I’ll say is that Dentists’ doesn’t really scream out to me. He’s more businessman, entrepreneur, you know, and, you know, from from the early days of, like, broche link raising funding. And then, you know, this group has come out of nowhere. Right. It’s Dental beauty group that started off and then came out of nowhere. Nothink, which one of our guests had landed in his group? Several. Several. So they had only opened one. They must have only opened one with him. Yes. I think Nick Sethi’s done one with him several. The thing about Dev is I’ve known him since the early days of Dental circle and when I get near to when he qualified and I’ve always done him as a fun guy and all that, but I was really, really impressed with him on the podcast.

[00:34:01] I mean, it’s that thing that you say Prav about how you know, someone for years. And then on the podcast platform, you kind of really get to know things about them. You never knew before. And I was very impressed with him, organised. You know, he doesn’t come across as a super organised, ambitious, consistent. And, you know, he tried to take brush linked to the US and literally sat down on LinkedIn and contacted every CEO of every major Dental insurance company in America again and again and again and again until until some of them got back to him. Pig headed, real pig headed, basically. Yeah. Know, the one thing I get from from him is sort of high integrity businessman. Yeah, I mean, talking to everyone who’s worked with him, the thing they all say is that, you know, he looks after you, he doesn’t even sort of mess about. But, yeah, I like that. And I was I’ve always liked him, but I was very impressed with him talking to him at the podcast. I love that story because when you told me before that you were looking at American insurance companies. Yeah, I thought, wow, that defs really connected man. I mean, he’s got a friend in America or whatever, you know,

[00:35:19] I wish I wish I knew. She just just called emailing. So February twenty nineteen started emailing every single insurance company to possibly think, got a list of them online and every company us Dental emailed them all, messaged him on LinkedIn, linked in a message when I was called, did that constantly and I mean I collected enough to like send a message for five times just to get attention. It was like that, it was actually just for cold messaging them. I sometimes even wait until they were like, just so I can see, that’s how invaluable I got to the point about how to do it, because that’s the only time you get attention about these guys are pretty busy guys anyway. They know what time to be wasting money on things. And then I was sick of tell

[00:36:04] Me this, tell me this. Some of this studio, when you’re when you’re doing this, you’ve got to know you’ve got a piece of paper. You’ve got you’ve got a list of names and and and you’re going through that. You must be quite an organised person to to keep up

[00:36:17] That number one.

[00:36:20] And number two, I’d like to know what was the driving force when you’re doing that? Is it that sort of are going to succeed come what may? Is it spending other people’s money and I can’t let them down? What is it? What is it what is it driving you?

[00:36:35] I think it’s a combination of three things, that the first things you said is obviously definitely there. The third thing I would say is that I generally believe, especially that time when you got product that can work, they’ll be interested in it. Like I knew in my mind, if I was in front of any of these guys who have these insurance companies, I would be almost. Not stupid, but like it will be very difficult. And I know you don’t want your advice because actually this is what I need in my life as an insurance company. I can save you hundreds of millions over the next 10, 20 years. Why would you even have one compassion? That’s why I was in my mind. I was thinking like a lock.

[00:37:14] And was that your pitch? Was that your pitch when you were when you contacted them, were you saying I can save you millions?

[00:37:20] It was not. You know what it was. I’ve got a lot of these companies already were looking at innovative ways to promote or help coming a more like some value based industry. So I will look into it wasn’t like we’re the first ones about doing. I mean, a company called Payman in America have already five years ahead of us. They already created to foster had that to that company offer that once they buy their insurance company that would buy like a billion dollars within like five years. They’ve already kind of a competitor to always go to a company, try to change the model for 30, 50 years. So I think we already had a bit of a kind of a step forward. It wasn’t like completely out of the blue. This new thing has come out. It was new in terms of technology, what we offering attach to the whole us. But it wasn’t the first time a concept was out there. So I think I had that already, that first step to get this guy’s attention. But I generally believe that if I had an mean, I would see that as some balance and some some need for this product, for their company. And luckily, that worked out really well. So I would say if I had the top 15 companies, I’ll hold them. Maybe eight of them got back to me, maybe 10 them go back to business, actually free to them, go back to me. And then I would say I had meetings with six of them within a month.

[00:38:39] Wow. Let’s get to number sixty nine. Best in the world. I mean, he’s certainly one of the best. One of the best. There’s no doubt about the for me, what really impressed me about the conversation was how open and Frank he was about everything. I mean it definitely wasn’t that he was sort of sort of presenting an image. He definitely wasn’t. And I said to him, what do you love about teaching? And he said, look, let’s face it, there’s a certain pleasure when you put a case up and and people go, wow, there’s a certain ego in it for a teacher of his standing to admit to. It’s something he went through. His whole process is three appointment process before he even gets to to drilling. And it’s a real privilege to have someone of his amazing calibre sit there and just say, as it is, you know, I mean, Prav you talk to a lot of high end, highly street dentists, but Parcel’s the one that they go to when they’re in trouble. You know, you mentioned his name and people just aspire to either be like him or be taught by him or whatever. Right. And and whenever his name’s mentioned, the reason why Stagg often said best dentist in the world question. Yeah. Yeah. It’s because that’s what I tend to hear. Yeah.

[00:40:05] Who am I to judge who the best dentist in the world is. Right. This is what you hear. Right. But the thing from know, I wasn’t present for that episode, but I think you mentioned that he was he was quite humble and sort of real and open about his own shortcomings. Right. And where he felt that, you know, he could improve or where were you know, I don’t know, maybe you want to expand on that. Yeah. Yeah, he was he was talking about how he handles his his his team and and how he’s always kept it very small and and, you know, going from South Africa, where he was trained to the US, where he did his postgrad and the Qinsheng on one of the top dentists and the whole Jerrard, she’s just a beautiful story. But what I really for me was the thing that stood out was how open he was about you. What do you enjoy the most? What’s the bit of it? Is it the treatment plants, like the sort of zoomed into the tooth? Is it the planning part? Is it the social part of actually talking to the patients and getting to that? Is it the teaching or is it the light bulb moment when the students suddenly gets what you say? What was the thing that you love

[00:41:19] The most of your

[00:41:20] Things, all the things that you do?

[00:41:22] And at the end of a big case and the cement, everything that’s always the and off of working and everything goes in, we get to the end and zoning out and making a lasting peace building half an hour myself, Tayside is working with my hands, making a percent joy. That’s probably why sometimes I go overboard, because it’s just that I get into my own world meditating and teaching a lot and it probably feels the ego a little bit. I like the adoration you get from the students when you say things and they look up and say, well, that’s amazing. It does make you feel good that it all

[00:42:02] This and

[00:42:05] A lot of what we do is self-fulfilling.

[00:42:08] Let’s move on to Episode 17, Richard Field. Richard, we both know very well you’ve known him for many years, Bayona and me too. Right. You know, the Academy, he’s been involved in teaching there. We’ve been away to Dubai together and met him at various events and courses. What really stands out about Richard is his quest for perfection. OK, and just producing beautiful dentistry. And I mean, this is not in terms of what I’ve seen with my own eyes, but what will the dentists tell me about his work? Generally, the dentists that have employed in in in their clinics. And the one thing to say is, you know what, with Richard, I can leave him with any patient. And I know he’s going to do a fantastic job. I know it’s going to be properly treatment plant. And I also know that it’s going to be incredibly ethical. Yeah, I know. I can just leave Richard to handle it. And the work is the work is, et cetera. He’s a great young dentist and that’s enough. And that’s what I come away with when I think Richard Field, he’s the kind of guy that you would send your family member to be treated. Yeah. You know, you’d have no qualms about it, even though even though he’s so young, you know, there’s a few of the young ones that Richard Depeche Meely now live, I can see is a few, the young ones where, you know, people say, look, I want a good dentist, but I don’t want to pay Harley Street, although I wish it is always cheaper.

[00:43:46] But, you know, people say, I want a good young dentist. Definitely. He also went through some of his problems. He has, you know, someone like is working with staff again. And he said he would never open a practise, which surprised the hell out of me. He said, I’ve just not made for it. So it’s good that self-awareness goes a long way, too, doesn’t it? But yeah. Yes. And you know what? Some people are blind to all of that. Right. He’s obviously seen the other side and made that conscious decision himself that this is for me. Some people on the other side are blind, completely blind to what was involved. And then it’s sink or swim right when it happens. And look, luckily, a lot of people get through the other end and make a success of it. Right. And it’s how a lot of lot of us have done it as well. You know, you can to that sink or swim. And I’ve been there. You’ve been there. Right. And it’s character building, so. Yeah. And what aspect of it is what drives you? I mean, some people love the planning, but some people loved my car, loved I love the planning part because it makes me feel safe.

[00:44:52] And like you say, I’m quite a defensive dentist. I want to make sure what we’re doing is right

[00:44:59] And it’s explaining that to the patient. Or they might come in

[00:45:02] And say, I want these teeth fixed and we look at the planning so we can fix these teeth, but we need to fix these nine other issues as well. We need to move this here and there. So again, it is maybe

[00:45:13] The Meccano making things fit together,

[00:45:15] But I wouldn’t claim that I know inclusion. But I it’s I really find it satisfying to see things fit together and just see that how how this truth will change this tooth.

[00:45:28] And I sometimes, even

[00:45:29] Though we’re looking at this tooth, we need to sort of involve other other aspects of the market as well. I find that quite satisfying when you when you sort of put together in all the red dots in the right place, I find that quite satisfying.

[00:45:44] Let’s move on to the hit man, Daniel artist. This guy pops up on my Facebook news feed story, feed, call it whatever you want, and it’s it’s boxing bouts. After bout training, they started the other. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was was not just, you know, skirt over the discipline, the training, the hard work, the physical enjoyment and all the rest of it while I was away from here is that, you know, we’re completely different human beings in the sense that he’s going to stand in front of someone he knows. This guy wants to knock seven bells out of him. Yeah. But there’s no fear. Yeah, I would literally be at that point knocking my knees together, trembling. Yeah, but boxes are built differently. Yeah, and that was clear from that conversation with him is like there’s an element of anxiety and adrenaline and all the rest of it. And that’s the healthy piece of the build up to it. Right. But actually, he’s not scared. There’s no fear and no walks away with completely different human beings. And, you know, I admire that. Really? Yeah. Although although, you know, the head injury part of it is important and it’s not like you didn’t know about the head injury part of it.

[00:47:09] He knew. Well, he knew. He knows. He knows better than all of us what it can happen. But when when you say so, doesn’t that scare you? Is like, I wouldn’t be a fighter if that scared me for the other thing that I walked away with on that episode was a sort of sense of ethics, you know. Yes. I don’t know whether it’s to do with his faith or whatever it was. He seemed to see things in a very sort of simple, I wouldn’t say some simplistic, simple way. And the ethics that he seemed to bring to every situation really impressed me. Really impressed. Yeah. And the thing, you know, stemming from his dad younger days and then his faith, I think his faith plays a big faith is important. But it wasn’t like he was shoving it down your throat or anything. It just the way it felt to me was you say, look, here’s problem X, what do you reckon? And and he would he would just come out with a beautiful way of looking at it, you know, really impressed me, really impressed me. And how much does faith feature in boxing you in belief in thanking for having the opportunity and before you go out there and after you win and the gratitude

[00:48:22] And stuff just just told me about you sort of mindset and beliefs. Yeah. Ah, you know, it definitely I mean, I always believe in being grateful to. Oh my God. And, you know, that’s where I get a lot of my strength, patience. And, you know, you’ve got to be strong not just in boxing, but in life in general. We all have our ups and downs. So, you know, I’ve got a lot more strength through my faith. And any time we have if we go through difficulties and, you know, and boxing has been some things that even for example, I mean, my record is seventeen wins and three losses. All three of my losses were under very controversial circumstances. Is boxing is one of those things. But you’ve got to be strong and rise above it. You know, you’ve got two choices when you get hit with something, you know, with adversity, it’s all about how you respond, you know, if you’re going to be weak to overcome you, you know, and that’s going to be your choice, then you’re not going to be able to propel any further if you’re going to just take on the chin. But like, you know, OK, I’ve been knocked down. I’m going to dust myself off and get back up and push on. And that’s what makes champions.

[00:49:38] That’s what makes people great. People always remember Thomas Edison for inventing the light bulb. How many times did Thomas Edison fail? Countless times, countless times, you know, you know, you will remember that, you know, when you look at an iceberg, you know, destruction beneath the sea, you know, it’s huge this year. It’s almost like a triple what you see at the top. And this all the underneath and all that sort of hard work, dedication, the difficulties that people don’t see through it. Maybe there’s earning is billions today. That is billions. He grew up in a room. He grew up in a place. It’s like, you know, just a small room. There’s about ten people in there. You know, he didn’t grow up with a silver spoon. You know, he worked his way hard in order to obtain the success and earn all that success and wealth that he’s done. And I’ve been very fortunate where we started late, late night sessions with Floyd Mayweather. So another thing that I sort of picked up from him and Danny Williams were doing my fight times close to my fight times. I’ll train at night. So mirrored the time of my fight for circadian rhythms and to develop your timing with boxing. And that’s something also I picked up my school science back as well.

[00:50:53] So in that time. So Floyd Mayweather, he you’d be training at night and then there’d be times where he’d just sit and talk with us to sunrise, you know, just giving us pearls of wisdom, you know? So it’s about how you respond. And faith has given me just the ability to look and analyse things, not just think, you know, look at things beyond what they are. And it’s like when I had my last controversial loss, I was six and three, six wins, three losses, you know, and I remember people looking and thinking, oh, yeah, you know, maybe you know that. So, you know, he can stop. You can carry on. How are you going to carry on someone to carry on? You know, all thanks to God today I’m seventeen and three. You know, I didn’t look back. So I get a lot that, you know, faith strength through, you know, through my faith, you know, and, you know, I get a lot of that strength, you know, through God. And I always pray I’m not I’m not a perfect person. I have my mistakes. But I always I’ll do my prayers and I’ll do my prayers a day, you know, just takes five minutes of my schedule to draw, you know, to just thank my creator remember him and just gives me that moment of just coming out this quick, such, you know, life is so fast, it’s so dynamic.

[00:52:15] And you just get like five, ten minutes out. You just stand before you create. It’s just you and him and you just talk to him, you know, and he just, you know, gives you that solace, that tranquillity, that sort of serenity. And it’s, you know, I you know, that’s why I’m one of the advantages I’ve had been pleased with my and I’ve been able to travel, you know, I love travelling. I love seeing the world. I love nature, you know? And again, you just look at all of those things and you just kind of you know, you remember God, the creator of creation. Just think of, you know, wow, what an engineer, you know, space star, not, you know, not astronomy. And I look at these things and it just it just, you know, it just allows you to have a moment of time and it just gives you just gives us strength and it gives you that, you know, that mental strength that we talk about in boxing, which which you really need. So it plays a big, big, big, big factor in my life and my career for boxing for sure.

[00:53:16] Let’s move on to the next one, which is Elaine Elaine Hally, president, ex president of the VA, in many ways, one of the mentors of lots of people in the Digital Theatre, DSD kind of world. If what stood out for me was just the story of starting a practise in a town, in a town in Scotland and coming in and saying, I’m going to be private from from the beginning and and having this sort of the the the grit to keep on going in that situation back in that day. And if you remember, Prav opening a private practise wasn’t a thing. No. And I think, you know, what I walked away with from that was her against all odds attitude. Yeah, the. I’m not trying to paraphrase, all right, but it was like, screw him, I’m going to make a success of this, right. I’ve got so much conviction in what I want to do. It was it was inspiring. Right. And then and then, you know, being one of the one of the very few women in dentistry at that time who went on to, first of all, open a practise and a practise with a difference. Right. Against all odds. Then go on to become president and then lecture and then teach and act as a you know, be an inspiration to to lots of people, male or female.

[00:54:45] Right. Let’s not try and sort of. Boxer into well, you know, she’s she’s a female Leaders she’s inspired many, many dentists, right? Not not just yes. I mean, it came up then it came up in conversation. The one thing I’d say about her is she carries often the really feminine way. Yeah. Because, you know, it’s possible to be trying to be manly about things, even if you’re a woman. But that wasn’t that where she was coming from at all. You know, it was she was an inspirational leader coming from the other side of of things and sort of the collaborative kind of way of looking at things. But I really like Elaine. She’s she’s one of my favourites. So it was lovely to have her on. So take us through the opening as Scott was quite innovative thing to do. But when people didn’t really open sports, I mean, of course, some did take us through that. I mean, are you the kind of person who jumps into things with full confidence or did you have anxiety about it using your parents money?

[00:55:50] That I didn’t use my parents money,

[00:55:54] Not that they offered, but

[00:55:58] What we did want to do

[00:55:59] Is guarantee. So they had the guarantee, you know, they had to act at the guarantee for the loans from the bank. Yeah. And do I jump into things? I think I think I logically look at the pros and cons. I had a plan and I just took it step by step and kind of didn’t. I’ve never particularly worried too much about what other people think, although then sometimes it comes as a shock when I realise people do think things. And so I got a lot of a lot of stick for opening a practise in a city where I wasn’t known. And I actually got some quite nasty letters from some of the dentists. I was quite naive, I suppose. I did write to everyone saying I was opening a practise single handed practise. I was going to be charging privately for the first examination. It was just the contracts. I’ll change the year that I graduated. So there was a big move in England where I had worked initially for dentists coming out the NHS. Scotland wasn’t moving in that way. So before that you weren’t allowed to mix private and NHS. And I, I started by charging for the full examination and then giving people options. And that was practically I would be really angered a lot of people by doing that. But I just I kept my head down and stuck to my guns and realised very quickly I wasn’t going to survive and an NHS environment because I wanted to be able to offer my patients the best the density had to offer. That’s always been I want my patients to have the choice of the of the best not to say that I’m the best clinically. That was never my that was never my goal. But to make sure that I understood all the different options and to be sure that people had choice, that’s what was important to me.

[00:57:46] Let’s move on to episode seventy three Jazz Jazzy Gulati. What an inspiration. I mean I’ve just joined his telegrammed group Telegram on Telegram. Now because it’s WhatsApp groups completely full, there’s not enough space for it. And while we’ve been talking on this podcast, but there’s been maybe 40 messages on the telegram route, I mean, is someone who’s leading a tribe of geeks. Yeah. And how amazing that he’s managed to sort of package Dental education in this beautiful sort of he he’s so into it and the people that are into him are into it. And there’s a group of dentists out there who I would put them in all of them, and that the sorority royalty is what they call them, who aren’t worried about getting sued. Of course they’re worried, but that’s not their number one thing. The number one thing is getting better, finding out what’s what’s what’s the sort of the latest thing. And and what do people think of this? How do we attack that? And Jazy himself, just his attitude is so, so sort of inspirational. So he’s got me back into dentistry, did whatever the merits of good. I don’t care what anyone says. I’m not. But he makes me want to pick up a drink. Yeah, yeah, yes. You know what? The thing the thing that I walk away with when it comes to jazz is his delivery.

[00:59:14] He delivers with humour. Yeah. As well as well as well. It’s not only humour though, dude. It’s not like it’s not a comedy show. No, I don’t know. But you know, the thing that I walk away, he delivers with humour. It’s not always with humour. Right. And he’s a he’s a real geek. Yeah. Real geeks down on everything. All the all the little bits and pieces he speaks about. And he’s just popped out of nowhere, right. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a household name now. Right. But he just sprung out of nowhere. Right. Just this guy with a with a beard and. A turban popped out of nowhere and then all of a sudden he’s got a show, he’s super geeky, he’s funny. I don’t know if it’s you know, I tend not to follow his Dental geeky ness because there’s no way I understand it. Right. But he’s comical videos that turn up on my Facebook stories and all the rest of it will always tickle me. But I’ll tell you something from on the content story, he’s he’s managed to sort of in business, we would call it vertically integrate so many who are doing a podcast. His podcast turned into a community.

[01:00:23] The community is turned into a course, the course. Now there’s a telegram group, there’s a WhatsApp group. And again, another one who I said to him, tell me about practise. Are you going to open the practise? Because he’s the kind of guy who would do very well opening a practise. You know, he’s good. Good at good at people. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, I’m not going to do a practise, definitely not yet, because I’m fully focussed on the produce Arati and he should be too. But he’s got a long way to go. Got a massive audience in the US now, and I love the fact that that we’re now morphing Dental education into this, you know, this way of doing it. You know, the guy seven years out of Dental school doesn’t have another qualification. And yet he’s inspiring thousands of dentists in all over the world to get better, you know, more power to him. Really like the this of infectious enthusiasm that you’ve got for dentistry. I mean, did you were you a good speaker before? Did people come to you for advice or I mean, you seem to like take it so naturally, you talk to people and you say enthusiasm. You have where did this start? I mean, were you one of these people? I was talking to Basil, he would say, no, he wasn’t top of his class and Dental school, were you? What was your story? Um, well, I was president of the University Dentistry Insights.

[01:01:48] I was always very active in that. I was very used to speaking and something that I was very much involved in. I don’t do the whole I was Mr Basils said I stay away from politics. Are the only two things I don’t talk about in my podcast is religion and politics. I stay away from that stuff. Everything always goes in the fashion industry, but I guess so. I was also without blowing my own horn, I was top of class. I was the first person before. I was very embarrassed in a way to say this. I was like I was very egotistical, but I’ve since had some sort of mind training to to change the way I perceive it, which is basically I was the first person in the U.S. to get one hundred percent in a clear and a final exam. And now I’m proud of the proud to say that. And it was a real something I really worked towards. So I was always aiming to be competitive and top of the class and aiming

[01:02:33] To be one with the community

[01:02:34] In a voice, a leader of some sort. Where did you qualify in Sheffield. Sheffield? You were you were you top of your class in school as well? Like before before I like sex and stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was always what I was thinking about the origin because I knew come the podcast, where does it all originate from? And I can pinpoint it to when I was six years old. So if you go back far enough, I’m sure I’m a refugee. I was born in Jalalabad, Afghanistan. I came here when I was six years old in a word of English, and my earliest memory of achievement was in year two at the time. And there was this massive board at the front, the class with everyone’s name on it, and who got 100 percent in the spelling test. So everyone had all these stars every time you get the sense that you get a gold star. So obviously everyone had all these stars and I was the only one without a star. And it went on week by week by week. I never had a star and I just made it my mission that one evening to practise writing these three and four letter words, cat, home ball, that kind of stuff, practise, practise, practise all night. And I’ll never forget that moment. I got my first gold star at age six and from there it was I was addicted. I was addicted to achievement. And that’s been a big driver for me. I just want to constantly do things. I’m one of these guys who has this massive to do list. I’m like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. If I’ve done something I wasn’t on the to do list and put it on the list just to take it off, just get that feeling I’d done something. You know, this is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on

[01:04:09] One with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman,

[01:04:16] Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] This guy pops up on my Facebook news feed story feed, call it whatever you want, and it’s it’s boxing bouts. After bout training, they started the other. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was was not just know skirt over the discipline, the training, the hard work, the physical enjoyment and all the rest of it while I was away from here is that, you know, we’re completely different human beings in the sense that he’s going to stand in front of someone he knows. This guy wants to knock seven bells out of Ymir. But there’s no fear. Yeah, I would literally be at that point knocking my knees together, trembling. Yeah, but boxes are built differently. Yeah, and that was clear from that conversation with him is like there’s an element of anxiety and adrenaline and all the rest of it. And that’s the healthy piece of the build up to it. Right. But actually, he’s not scared. There’s no fear. This is Dental Leaders,

[00:01:12] The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your host’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:27] Welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast for this episode. This is Prav hasn’t been with me for a few months. We decided just to sit down together and and and go through some of the things we’ve learnt from the guests in the past few episodes since our famous Queen’s Speech episode that we had when Boris shut the whole country down. And, you know, some of this has been people who’ve we’ve known, some of them been people we haven’t known. What stood out for you Prav in that in this period between the last time we spoke and Christmas when there was that shut down till now, was supposed to that for you? I think to me there’s been an overt bit taken away from like what stood out in terms of individual stories and things like that. Much more to do with the overall feeling of returning back to normality with you. You know, the conversations I’m having with people, certainly when, you know, when it comes from a business perspective, was really stood out for me, has been this acceleration, right. This growth that a lot of practises and a lot of our clients are experiencing also how to deal with that and coping with that overwhelmed. I think what was really stood out is the people who grabbed that opportunity by the horns and run with it, making hay while the sun shines type scenario. And then the individuals or business owners who say, hey, this is too much, I need to calm down and step back from those opportunities.

[00:02:56] Right. And thus, you know, those are the two main camps that I’m seeing at the moment, people who are grabbing and running with it, and people who are just sort of saying, hey, this is too much, we’ll create a waiting list. We can’t cope with growth. We won’t scale. We’ll just deal with it. And they will be the same people maybe in 12 months time or whatever. We’ll be picking up the phone saying I need more patience. Yeah. Although, you know, the natural history of a practise can be many things, can’t it? It doesn’t have to be in a particular particular path. I mean, I hear what you’re saying because I hear stories of people who’ve taken taken whatever reserves they had or some people obviously did quite well from the overpayments over the lockdown period and have invested and grow growing. Their businesses mean growing their premises and and growing their marketing budgets. And I learnt that from my side. I can see the the bleaching and the composites side of it more clearly. I guess you’ve got a good view on the Invisalign, although the implants and all of that. But all of it seems to be going through the roof, not just high ticket dentistry. Right. So the big ticket items starting from the smaller big ticket items like GDP also. Right. Starting from around, say, three and a half or whatever people charge all the way up north of, you know, 30, 40 K for immediate loading implant dentistry.

[00:04:21] We’re seeing that going through the roof. Right. But just going back to what we said earlier, there is no right or wrong way of navigate in this scenario, OK? Because some people during, say, the lock down before this whole thing took off, I’ve actually had a reassessment of the life. Right. You don’t want to work as hard. Yeah, they’ve sat back and appreciated whether it’s time with their family taking their foot off the pedal, reducing their stress levels. And these opportunities come and they decide actively not to take it. I’m not saying that’s wrong. But then there’s the others who have got this almost like energetic growth mindset mentality who just say, hey, there’s an opportunity here. The sun is shining and it’s going to go down one day. I’m going to make the most of it. And we’re seeing we’re seeing from the patient perspective, I think we’ve spoke about this in the past, the the this overwhelming demand, an interest for patients wanting to spend money on their teeth. Right. Put things right. Whether it’s functional or cosmetic. And where is all this money come from? Is it the Furlaud fund? And we could argue that perhaps, you know, there’s been the fact that, you know, people haven’t been able to spend the money, go on holidays, blah, blah, blah, and they’ve accumulated some savings. But we’re seeing loads of older people. Right, retired people who are, you know, or pensioners and that sort of age.

[00:05:44] Well, you know, I don’t think their spending habits have changed much, but we’re seeing a larger influx of those people who are saying, you know what? I’m going to invest 15, 20, 30, 40 calientes now, and we’re getting less knows or we’re getting less maybe or less. I’ll think about it more. I’ll go for it. And in your business, you’re seeing record winning numbers, right? Yes. Through the roof is through the roof. I mean, if you told me we were going to be this busy now back in the shutdown period, I wouldn’t have believed you at all. But back to what you were saying. I think there has been any way to spend your money as well, Prav you literally flow out of it. If I was an older person, a 60 year old guy who’s got a bit of cash in the bank, whatever, haven’t been able to go to restaurants, haven’t been able to spend it on holidays, you know, you might even be putting big purchases like car purchases and things to one side in this period where, you know, you’ve been focussed at home. I think the home DIY kind of spend. I speak to people in that area who are doing very well, but also, you know, you haven’t got anywhere to spend the money. So probably where it is, there’s only there’s only so many capacity’s and digestives you can get through a home. And that’s not going to cost you a fortune, right? A lot of our own.

[00:07:00] So should we go through some of the episodes or should we now continue talking about this? Yeah, let’s let’s go through this. Since we did the which was it? I think it was episode sixty three. Sixty sixty four. Where. Bloody hell. Sixty four episodes. Does it seem like yesterday we started this right. Yeah. I mean I was in sixty four episodes. Right. But looking back it and say hey let’s go back to episode sixty four. So episode sixty five was with Nic and Sanjay Sethi. I mean Nic said to me, is this almost a newcomer because we’re getting older. But Sanjay said he was one of the first people who really inspired me in composites. It was before we were selling composites. We were only doing whitening systems at that point. And I clearly remember the first time I saw a composite that was in a completely invisible and completely polished was the lecture that he gave at, I want to say maybe two thousand four, 2003 around then really beautiful. And he really is one of the top dentists in the country, does a lot of implant work and at the Square Mile clinic that they’re both that they’ve been joined by a couple of our other other guests on the show, Elaine Moe and now Amit Patel as well. But I was really interested in and in the way that Nic was talking about how Sanjay mentored him into that practise and what he had to do in that practise just to just to make just earn his stripes, you know, before they sort of he’s gone off in his minimally invasive direction.

[00:08:45] So what do you think of them Prav you know them? Well, I don’t. But, you know, the one thing I’ll say is that, you know, brothers, brothers in arms and all the rest of it. Right. Being inspired by your older brother and working with your brother, the only the only parallel I can draw to that is me and Kailash. Right. And for those that have heard the episodes and those that have heard me speak, I think it’s pretty clear we’re like chalk and cheese. So if we were brothers in arms, working together in the same business, I can tell you there would be fireworks, right? It just wouldn’t work. We’ve got different values, different dynamics. And we love each other to bits. Right. But we couldn’t work together. And so so in this in this relationship, what did you notice from the did we have the situation where younger brother was looking up to Big Brother or what was the biggest difference really between them and you guys? This is a massive age difference between so a bit more like father and son than than brother and brother. I think Nic really always looked up to to Sanjay and, you know, what a great example to have for him. Essentially, for the first two years, maybe do everything

[00:09:57] I have to learn it the way Sanjay understood it, and I have to then obviously bring on what I knew from courses and learning and I was say the end those areas. I was doing everything that I did. And then before I started getting into surgery and implants, I suddenly thought to myself, well, I’d love to be a partner in this grandma one day. I mean, I love the practise dearly. It’s been such an instrumental part of my life. I love the team. I love everything about practise. And I thought, well, if I’m going to be a partner here, it doesn’t make sense to be exactly the same as Sanjay because Sanjay says he’s got his patient base for 20 years and it be exactly the same.

[00:10:38] And so we then have a good discussion.

[00:10:41] And I decided, well, I’m not going to go down the implants route, know never say never. Right. But Sanjay’s I’ve never I’ve got a good night with restorative dentistry. I’d like to think I can produce some nice results now, always learning.

[00:10:55] But for me to then get to that next level to where Sanjay’s surgically, that’s a whole nother career. And what Sanjay has developed with his handling of soft

[00:11:06] Tissues, it’s not just placing an implant in his vision or his handling of soft tissue is grafting.

[00:11:12] It’s such a niche that I think he’s so good. Why do I want to go down that path when he’s the man? He is the man. Let’s talk about Episode 66 with Max, Max, Max Basini bazoo, Quini Basuki. You know, when I’ve spoken to Max, right, I said, listen, your first name is really easy, Max. It’s my you know, I think it’s your Starbucks name. Right. And I sometimes you have my name right. But how do I how to pronounce the surname. Right. And he says, just think about zucchini and stick a bat in front of the rights of Basil Keaney. But, you know, a guy who’s got some serious Italian flair and has come from, you know, his early days, his background is, you know, learning how to sell businesses. I think he started off in in the health care, selling a gym right back in the early days and then moved on to dentistry. And the conversations I’ve had with this guy is that he really does know the buying and selling of practise business really well. And more importantly, he’s very, very much geared towards maximising value for clients. Right. He recently sold and I’m sure and he’s happy for me to say this, but he recently helped to sell and the most beautiful practise in Essex advanced Dental. Oh, yeah, both of our favourites, fair practise and human being. Right. What a great guy. Right. But, you know, he sold on this practise and I remember this conversation and, you know, and they would pick up the phone to me and he says, Prav, I think now is the time. And then and then we spoke numbers and he said it’s a pretty good number that I’m happy with that. And and we had the conversation.

[00:13:09] We said, look, should you hire somebody to sell? You practise or shouldn’t you? And my answer to that was, look, we don’t do this for a living. You do teeth. I do marketing, business coaching, whatever. Right. And you need a professional who does this day in, day out. And their value add is whatever number you’ve got sat on the table today, they need to elevate the whatever deal you’ve got on the table today. They need to elevate that and whatever their fee structure is, needs to be a no brainer. Yeah. And it’s it’s one percent. Right. It’s nothing nice in comparison to the big picture. It’s nothing. Right? Yeah. I think there’s a lot of people all he has to do is get two percent more for the practise and now it’s been worth it. Right. It’s absolutely nothing. And I think I come across and I have numerous conversations with people who were going or who are having conversations where the buyer has gone direct to practise on, OK, they’re a little bit wet behind the ears. They don’t know how. They’re not professional negotiators. They may think they are because they’re selling treatment every day or whatever. Right. But but I think it’d be very naive for somebody to sell their practise without at least speaking to a broker and seeing what’s possible. So when when a client comes to me and goes, you know, what is it worth me paying somebody to do this? No. One, they take away the pain and the unknowns of that. But number two, it’s a no brainer because whatever their fee structure is, they should be they should easily be able to earn that out in the price structure.

[00:14:43] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I like to say I have a good relationship with with most of the groups and the. Titian’s team and Yamane guys and ladies working in the groups when they see May involving involvement, my involvement instantly become aware that it’s going to be a tough negotiation and it’s not always the case if you go and approach them direct. Most of the time at Prav persona, we do this once in a lifetime that we said they practise and they will, and we only have one opportunity and they get an offer and then maybe think that’s the best and final and maybe they don’t. You know, they might be great clinicians by the grace and negotiating. I don’t know what buttons to push in my experience and my background. Obviously spying practises. So I know what buttons to push in order to increase the value. You know, what can improve evaluations and negotiation. I know we know what we can we can achieve. So sometimes we see an initial offer and it’s not just about the price, but also about the terms and the amount of the UK on the deferred basis. In terms of example, I can give you an example, which is quite exceptional, really. There was the practise in Buckinghamshire who came to us with an offer on a table for one point eight million.

[00:16:05] So I analysed the figures and then of course, we can talk about how we value and prices in a minute. And then I thought is a good offer, but I think we can improve on that offer a one point eight. And the way that you can improve is by creating a nice competitive tension, not just with that group by introduce either two or three potential buyers that you think that a good match. And we did so. So the consequently we started to get offers and the same group who offer one point eight and it was the best and final couple of months later they offered two point four. So obviously wasn’t the best and final. But then eventually the deal closed at two point seven, which I was very surprised by. I think with it, I think I’m pleased with what we did there and the clients will play. So you sold ultimately ended up selling to another group, not to the same group. So your one and a half percent save, I would say, is more than justified by involving someone like us that can introduce and bring to the table different groups and sometimes also trying to maximise on the current offer that you might have from from the same group.

[00:17:16] So even if you may deal with a corporate or a buyer, it’s still not too late to engage a professional like yourself.

[00:17:25] Now, it’s now obviously you need to trying to find the balance in not to upset the buyer, but in your best interest, you need to maximise your chances, your opportunity, and is probably once in a lifetime opportunity. And it’s an exciting time to sell your business. And you want to make sure that you, especially if you ended up working with the group, there is not a sentiment in the time in the way that you value that you got. So you need to make sure that you get the right value before you sell, realising it after by talking to your friends and say, actually, I could sell for more or my conditions could have been better. So you get to explore all avenues and make sure you get a good deal in terms of value and in terms of terms.

[00:18:10] So what’s not for me? I mean, if you remember, we had and the acting as well from Frank, their associates. But what stood out for me with Max was there was the thing he was talking about, like a beauty parade way of selling a practise, of bringing in lots of different interested parties and getting a better price for it that way, which was which is an interesting thing. And the other thing that you said, for every pound that you save, that can translate to seven pounds extra on the value of the nine or whatever, whatever online. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that starts becoming an interesting conversation. I mean, I’m speaking to now probably half a dozen of my clients who have reached that point where they’re ready to hang up their drills. Right. Or at least transition towards that point. And it’s funny they’re having conversations about should I put the staff wages up because it’s what I’ve always done. Right. But if I let’s let’s say the staff wages go up by. Ten grand. OK, I’ve I just lost. Eighty eight, yeah, yeah, I’ve just lost eight to 10 times that, yeah. My advice is. When you’re selling your business, the deal isn’t done until the money’s in your bank to carry on running that business as though you would be ruining it to grow it, because if that deal doesn’t go through and you’re building that excitement and that hope up to the point where you get to the last point and then the rug is pulled, there’ll be so many business decisions you would have made where at that point you’ll be better off.

[00:19:52] But you kept holding yourself back for that potential sale. Do you know of any stories where people sold their practise and then gave a bonus to their staff at that point? No, no, no. I don’t know any stories about that. But to be honest, I don’t know a lot of people who have sold their practise. I think I think the clients that I’ve been working with for sort of north of a decade, between 10 to 15 years are currently at that stage where they’re considering exit or working towards that or planning towards that or having those conversations. And so it’s all it’s all quite new to me. Right. I’m learning a lot along the way. And I think it’s very exciting and interesting, just the psychology that comes around. Except what does that mean? What does retirement mean? How does that affect your family dynamics? Right. Having, you know, meeting up. I met with Andy Moore and went to his house shortly after he sold and had some really interesting conversations with him about what, you know, you sit down and say, Andy, what’s it feel like now not to be the boss? OK, what does it feel like to have the extra lump sum sitting in your bank account, in the security and everything? And do you feel like you’ve achieved the dream? OK, and it’s really, really interesting conversations I had there where sometimes you know what you expect and the reality is quite different, you know? Yeah, I think.

[00:21:25] Well, Andy, Andy achieved the dream many years ago. The first that’s a very, very, very different you know, I’ll tell you I’ll tell you what Andy said. I’m sure you won’t mind. I won’t go into detail on everything. But, you know, he shared with me that you get to the point where you sell your business for for a sum that is life changing, OK? And your friends tell you, you know, when you sell the business by a drinka. Yeah, buy your dream house, yeah, yeah, do all these things go on an amazing holiday, right? We’re talking about Andy Moore. Here he goes. He goes to Necker Island on holiday every year. Yeah, he’s got a beautiful home. Yeah. A beautiful, beautiful home is the dream home. Right. And he’s had the dream castle. So so for him, it’s like, well, what’s next? But I think, you know, the one thing that I walked away from that conversation, he says he said he felt a sense of security for him, his family, his life, the hard work he put in.

[00:22:32] Yeah. For many generations and generations ahead. Absolutely. Absolutely. For those interested Episode 10 with Andy, Andy Moore, one of the best of whatever, both of our favourite people. And you know, it’s a good one to listen to Episode 10. Let’s move on to the next episode with the shoddy, shoddy, managerial, shoddy and interesting person. She I’m very much in touch with her now, but she did this very interesting thing where she started social media during lockdown and she didn’t have an Instagram account or not. Not a proper one. Not Dental one anyway, before before lockdown. And she certainly didn’t have a ticktock. And I guess she’s one of these sort of high achievers and she’s decided to overlook town to start making content and interesting Prav. The numbers are probably different now. But when when I spoke to her, her ticktock following was over one hundred and twenty thousand, but her Instagram was around twelve thirteen thousand and she was doing similar work for both goes to show the reach of the different platforms. She’s definitely now out there. But so interesting to see that within such a short period you can make a name on the platforms with a bit of focus. She lucked out a little bit with some of the sort of more, you know, with the way Tick-Tock works. If it’s a juicy headline, sometimes people follow it in the turkey teeth and the the one the pegs that they were showing and all of that and just the great conversation with the young dentist going places.

[00:24:07] I feel. I feel with Chardy. What do you think the future for her is? I think that, you know, she’s she’s one of those she’s taking it in her, taking the time, trying to do the jobs that she wants to do rather than what she needs to do. She’s working two days a week and focussing on the content side a bit more. And in the conversation, she said, look, I’ve got a practise in my head that I want to one day do. And, you know, what I’m interested in, though, is, you know, we own many small Makov when Kunal does his marketing, but he always asks who he is, go to Dental account, and generally less than half the room have a Dental Instagram account. And he’s like, oh, why don’t you should know. But what I’m interested in is in, what, a short period of time? I mean, look down a year ago. Yeah. And what a short period of time. You can make a massive impact here. If people find your content valuable, your valuable content. It’s not it’s not just about consistency, Stephanie. About consistency, but not but not only about consistency is about engaging with people.

[00:25:15] I think you have to spend enough time consuming the platform to learn what works, what doesn’t work, the trends. I think it’s important to jump on the trends and that kind of thing. But, you know, I found that I was spending like two or three hours a day on that anyway, so I might as well be creating because if you see enough tick tock videos, you’ll want to create one. If you see the same trends, you’ll think about your take on the trend. So, yeah, definitely. I don’t think

[00:25:41] I know this is a million dollar question,

[00:25:44] But

[00:25:44] What would you say makes a video go viral?

[00:25:49] Yeah, I’m OK.

[00:25:50] I’m asking you for the answer, but what would you say from what you’re learning?

[00:25:55] Yeah. So I think you see

[00:25:58] Title seems to work well.

[00:26:00] Do you see a title works very well. I think, you know, I think even I don’t think anyone fully understands how the platform works. So one video could go super viral, but another similar video could not say. I think a lot of it is down to luck and it’s about producing enough content consistently for one of them to inevitably go viral. But with me, to be honest, the first video that I thought had gone viral was 80000 views and then that the ultimate was the eight million views. But the crowd’s opinion is one. But I think you need to be divulging some sort of juicy information. You need to grab people’s attention. And it’s about, you know, with ticktock, it’s about retention of the viewer. So it’s about time. And how long they spent viewing that video, how many times they watch it, whether they send it to other people, how many people like it commented. That kind of stuff plays a big part in how viral that video goes. So, for example. That video is incredible video, it was filmed for and will give you analytics that will tell you how long they’ve spent, people have spent watching that video. So a lot of people had shared it with each other. They sent it and that’s how it went. Stupefy. It was on every kind of, you know, like like Beigel, all these kind of external places as well. A lot of

[00:27:14] You on the news,

[00:27:15] Right? Yeah, I was in Russia TV as well. I don’t know how I would like to instead look

[00:27:21] For people who don’t know, just go through what happened with that, because that was like a Katie Price turkey video thing was.

[00:27:27] Yeah. So it was a on ticked off. There is one of the trends. So I’m ticked off for people who aren’t familiar with the platform, a lot of content is for entertainment and a lot of content is for hacks and DIY kind of stuff. So, you know, cutting hair recipes, that kind of thing. And a trend with regards to teeth and health was that people were going to turkey, shaving their teeth down and saying these are videos, and then showing that before and after and their sharp teeth. And this wasn’t anything new. It was on Instagram for a while before it went on on ticktock. And I had seen a lot of people kind of comment on this. A lot of dentists were rightly speaking up about it, saying, look, these are these are not many of these are crowds. But I was kind of very apprehensive about talking about it because I didn’t want it to sound like I was saying, you know, dentists in certain countries were bad and they didn’t want to sound like I was promoting, you know, a line bleach and bond kind of protocols. So I was quite apprehensive about it. And then I came across this video and I’ll take a lot of my photos with in videos that are about to you to get my opinion on it. And if a video goes viral and everyone sees it and more people are attacking you in that video.

[00:28:31] So I came across this video of a girl who was very young and she had she actually had beautiful, perfect teeth. They were lying. They were very, very white and they didn’t have any major issues. And she had gotten all of them shaved, though, I think at least five to five and had crowns on all of them saying, look at my opinions. And a lot of people were commenting, saying, oh, that is great, but you get this done. And it was really scary to see young people looking up to these in quotation marks, influences and wanting to do the same thing. So I made a video saying, look, these are not videos, these are crowns and these are the risks. You know, you can get nerve damage. You’re going to need root canal treatment. You’re going to need to replace these. And I think, you know what you were saying about juice juice content. I said you might end up needing dentures by age 14. And I think that’s what it took to kind of make people realise that actually. Yeah. That actually this isn’t like just getting false things is actually a big deal. And I got loads of messages from people like loads and loads, like hundreds of messages from people on Instagram saying I had no idea. I’ve been thinking of doing this. Thank you for sharing this. I was literally minutes away from booking my flight to go to Turkey to get this done.

[00:29:41] And there was one message from I think it was over Christmas. There was one message from this girl who was actually in Turkey, and she said, look, I’ve come here with my boyfriend to get our teeth done. And they’ve just told him he needs four root canals before he gets his crowns done. I’m really panicking. I’m really scared. What should I do? I treatments tomorrow. And I was like, there’s literally nothing I can do for you. Now you’re in Turkey, you’re already there. Like, this is the kind of stuff you should be thinking about before you go over there to get your teeth done. And the maintenance like who’s going to who’s going to pay for the maintenance? Do you understand? Do you realise this may need to be replaced? And so it went viral, shared on every kind of platform that I can think of. It was one of the trending news articles on Apple News. My dad actually was going through avenues and he was like, this is where you are. My brother came home. It was like like your like lad Bible. So it was my five minutes of fame. But I’m glad it got the attention that it needed because it made people realise that these aren’t just, you know, stuff you get done and just forget about it.

[00:30:42] Look, look, just just take a step away from from Shaddai produced an amazing concert. Right. And let’s focus on Meenu. And I’m not trying to blow smoke up either of our backsides at this point. Right. But the content of this in the content that we produce on this episode, which has got very little to do about me new but more to do with the stories that we pull out of the guests. OK, and the stories that they share has been so impactful for so many individuals. So, you know, there’s a number of dentists who’ve taken their time out to just send me a direct message and say, Prav, you know what? I listen to you and pay on my, you know, weekly whatever run and the morning walk, whatever. Yeah. I’m thank you so much for sharing that pull up to one side. Right. The purpose of this podcast has never been commercial. Payman, when we started this for Dental Leaders, we decided right in the beginning, no advertized, we weren’t going to market enlightened, we weren’t going to market me, et cetera, et cetera. And we just let the conversation flow around the guests. However. What has come as a result of that is I probably get the vast majority of new business coming towards now right through the podcast, and it’s because we’re producing powerful content. Yeah, yeah, I think it’s on this platform, it for me, it seems easy to produce good content, but personally I find it very hard on on Instagram, you know, it depends how you weigh it.

[00:32:26] Right. I made an Instagram content, all the rest of it. I don’t have the patience and all the time and I don’t have the skill. Yeah. Then you look at someone like Shaddai, you look at someone like Rohner who can just pull out a phone and produce 20 stories a day. Whole different skill sets talent, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there’s no way I can do anything like that. But sit here and shoot the breeze with you or another guest. It’s it’s just part and parcel of easy work. Yeah, other uses were episode 68, what’s driving Dev Patel? Do you know? Definitely I do. And I’ve met him several times. And the one thing that I’ll say is that Dentists’ doesn’t really scream out to me. He’s more businessman, entrepreneur, you know, and, you know, from from the early days of, like, broche link raising funding. And then, you know, this group has come out of nowhere. Right. It’s Dental beauty group that started off and then came out of nowhere. Nothink, which one of our guests had landed in his group? Several. Several. So they had only opened one. They must have only opened one with him. Yes. I think Nick Sethi’s done one with him several. The thing about Dev is I’ve known him since the early days of Dental circle and when I get near to when he qualified and I’ve always done him as a fun guy and all that, but I was really, really impressed with him on the podcast.

[00:34:01] I mean, it’s that thing that you say Prav about how you know, someone for years. And then on the podcast platform, you kind of really get to know things about them. You never knew before. And I was very impressed with him, organised. You know, he doesn’t come across as a super organised, ambitious, consistent. And, you know, he tried to take brush linked to the US and literally sat down on LinkedIn and contacted every CEO of every major Dental insurance company in America again and again and again and again until until some of them got back to him. Pig headed, real pig headed, basically. Yeah. Know, the one thing I get from from him is sort of high integrity businessman. Yeah, I mean, talking to everyone who’s worked with him, the thing they all say is that, you know, he looks after you, he doesn’t even sort of mess about. But, yeah, I like that. And I was I’ve always liked him, but I was very impressed with him talking to him at the podcast. I love that story because when you told me before that you were looking at American insurance companies. Yeah, I thought, wow, that defs really connected man. I mean, he’s got a friend in America or whatever, you know,

[00:35:19] I wish I wish I knew. She just just called emailing. So February twenty nineteen started emailing every single insurance company to possibly think, got a list of them online and every company us Dental emailed them all, messaged him on LinkedIn, linked in a message when I was called, did that constantly and I mean I collected enough to like send a message for five times just to get attention. It was like that, it was actually just for cold messaging them. I sometimes even wait until they were like, just so I can see, that’s how invaluable I got to the point about how to do it, because that’s the only time you get attention about these guys are pretty busy guys anyway. They know what time to be wasting money on things. And then I was sick of tell

[00:36:04] Me this, tell me this. Some of this studio, when you’re when you’re doing this, you’ve got to know you’ve got a piece of paper. You’ve got you’ve got a list of names and and and you’re going through that. You must be quite an organised person to to keep up

[00:36:17] That number one.

[00:36:20] And number two, I’d like to know what was the driving force when you’re doing that? Is it that sort of are going to succeed come what may? Is it spending other people’s money and I can’t let them down? What is it? What is it what is it driving you?

[00:36:35] I think it’s a combination of three things, that the first things you said is obviously definitely there. The third thing I would say is that I generally believe, especially that time when you got product that can work, they’ll be interested in it. Like I knew in my mind, if I was in front of any of these guys who have these insurance companies, I would be almost. Not stupid, but like it will be very difficult. And I know you don’t want your advice because actually this is what I need in my life as an insurance company. I can save you hundreds of millions over the next 10, 20 years. Why would you even have one compassion? That’s why I was in my mind. I was thinking like a lock.

[00:37:14] And was that your pitch? Was that your pitch when you were when you contacted them, were you saying I can save you millions?

[00:37:20] It was not. You know what it was. I’ve got a lot of these companies already were looking at innovative ways to promote or help coming a more like some value based industry. So I will look into it wasn’t like we’re the first ones about doing. I mean, a company called Payman in America have already five years ahead of us. They already created to foster had that to that company offer that once they buy their insurance company that would buy like a billion dollars within like five years. They’ve already kind of a competitor to always go to a company, try to change the model for 30, 50 years. So I think we already had a bit of a kind of a step forward. It wasn’t like completely out of the blue. This new thing has come out. It was new in terms of technology, what we offering attach to the whole us. But it wasn’t the first time a concept was out there. So I think I had that already, that first step to get this guy’s attention. But I generally believe that if I had an mean, I would see that as some balance and some some need for this product, for their company. And luckily, that worked out really well. So I would say if I had the top 15 companies, I’ll hold them. Maybe eight of them got back to me, maybe 10 them go back to business, actually free to them, go back to me. And then I would say I had meetings with six of them within a month.

[00:38:39] Wow. Let’s get to number sixty nine. Best in the world. I mean, he’s certainly one of the best. One of the best. There’s no doubt about the for me, what really impressed me about the conversation was how open and Frank he was about everything. I mean it definitely wasn’t that he was sort of sort of presenting an image. He definitely wasn’t. And I said to him, what do you love about teaching? And he said, look, let’s face it, there’s a certain pleasure when you put a case up and and people go, wow, there’s a certain ego in it for a teacher of his standing to admit to. It’s something he went through. His whole process is three appointment process before he even gets to to drilling. And it’s a real privilege to have someone of his amazing calibre sit there and just say, as it is, you know, I mean, Prav you talk to a lot of high end, highly street dentists, but Parcel’s the one that they go to when they’re in trouble. You know, you mentioned his name and people just aspire to either be like him or be taught by him or whatever. Right. And and whenever his name’s mentioned, the reason why Stagg often said best dentist in the world question. Yeah. Yeah. It’s because that’s what I tend to hear. Yeah.

[00:40:05] Who am I to judge who the best dentist in the world is. Right. This is what you hear. Right. But the thing from know, I wasn’t present for that episode, but I think you mentioned that he was he was quite humble and sort of real and open about his own shortcomings. Right. And where he felt that, you know, he could improve or where were you know, I don’t know, maybe you want to expand on that. Yeah. Yeah, he was he was talking about how he handles his his his team and and how he’s always kept it very small and and, you know, going from South Africa, where he was trained to the US, where he did his postgrad and the Qinsheng on one of the top dentists and the whole Jerrard, she’s just a beautiful story. But what I really for me was the thing that stood out was how open he was about you. What do you enjoy the most? What’s the bit of it? Is it the treatment plants, like the sort of zoomed into the tooth? Is it the planning part? Is it the social part of actually talking to the patients and getting to that? Is it the teaching or is it the light bulb moment when the students suddenly gets what you say? What was the thing that you love

[00:41:19] The most of your

[00:41:20] Things, all the things that you do?

[00:41:22] And at the end of a big case and the cement, everything that’s always the and off of working and everything goes in, we get to the end and zoning out and making a lasting peace building half an hour myself, Tayside is working with my hands, making a percent joy. That’s probably why sometimes I go overboard, because it’s just that I get into my own world meditating and teaching a lot and it probably feels the ego a little bit. I like the adoration you get from the students when you say things and they look up and say, well, that’s amazing. It does make you feel good that it all

[00:42:02] This and

[00:42:05] A lot of what we do is self-fulfilling.

[00:42:08] Let’s move on to Episode 17, Richard Field. Richard, we both know very well you’ve known him for many years, Bayona and me too. Right. You know, the Academy, he’s been involved in teaching there. We’ve been away to Dubai together and met him at various events and courses. What really stands out about Richard is his quest for perfection. OK, and just producing beautiful dentistry. And I mean, this is not in terms of what I’ve seen with my own eyes, but what will the dentists tell me about his work? Generally, the dentists that have employed in in in their clinics. And the one thing to say is, you know what, with Richard, I can leave him with any patient. And I know he’s going to do a fantastic job. I know it’s going to be properly treatment plant. And I also know that it’s going to be incredibly ethical. Yeah, I know. I can just leave Richard to handle it. And the work is the work is, et cetera. He’s a great young dentist and that’s enough. And that’s what I come away with when I think Richard Field, he’s the kind of guy that you would send your family member to be treated. Yeah. You know, you’d have no qualms about it, even though even though he’s so young, you know, there’s a few of the young ones that Richard Depeche Meely now live, I can see is a few, the young ones where, you know, people say, look, I want a good dentist, but I don’t want to pay Harley Street, although I wish it is always cheaper.

[00:43:46] But, you know, people say, I want a good young dentist. Definitely. He also went through some of his problems. He has, you know, someone like is working with staff again. And he said he would never open a practise, which surprised the hell out of me. He said, I’ve just not made for it. So it’s good that self-awareness goes a long way, too, doesn’t it? But yeah. Yes. And you know what? Some people are blind to all of that. Right. He’s obviously seen the other side and made that conscious decision himself that this is for me. Some people on the other side are blind, completely blind to what was involved. And then it’s sink or swim right when it happens. And look, luckily, a lot of people get through the other end and make a success of it. Right. And it’s how a lot of lot of us have done it as well. You know, you can to that sink or swim. And I’ve been there. You’ve been there. Right. And it’s character building, so. Yeah. And what aspect of it is what drives you? I mean, some people love the planning, but some people loved my car, loved I love the planning part because it makes me feel safe.

[00:44:52] And like you say, I’m quite a defensive dentist. I want to make sure what we’re doing is right

[00:44:59] And it’s explaining that to the patient. Or they might come in

[00:45:02] And say, I want these teeth fixed and we look at the planning so we can fix these teeth, but we need to fix these nine other issues as well. We need to move this here and there. So again, it is maybe

[00:45:13] The Meccano making things fit together,

[00:45:15] But I wouldn’t claim that I know inclusion. But I it’s I really find it satisfying to see things fit together and just see that how how this truth will change this tooth.

[00:45:28] And I sometimes, even

[00:45:29] Though we’re looking at this tooth, we need to sort of involve other other aspects of the market as well. I find that quite satisfying when you when you sort of put together in all the red dots in the right place, I find that quite satisfying.

[00:45:44] Let’s move on to the hit man, Daniel artist. This guy pops up on my Facebook news feed story, feed, call it whatever you want, and it’s it’s boxing bouts. After bout training, they started the other. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was was not just, you know, skirt over the discipline, the training, the hard work, the physical enjoyment and all the rest of it while I was away from here is that, you know, we’re completely different human beings in the sense that he’s going to stand in front of someone he knows. This guy wants to knock seven bells out of him. Yeah. But there’s no fear. Yeah, I would literally be at that point knocking my knees together, trembling. Yeah, but boxes are built differently. Yeah, and that was clear from that conversation with him is like there’s an element of anxiety and adrenaline and all the rest of it. And that’s the healthy piece of the build up to it. Right. But actually, he’s not scared. There’s no fear and no walks away with completely different human beings. And, you know, I admire that. Really? Yeah. Although although, you know, the head injury part of it is important and it’s not like you didn’t know about the head injury part of it.

[00:47:09] He knew. Well, he knew. He knows. He knows better than all of us what it can happen. But when when you say so, doesn’t that scare you? Is like, I wouldn’t be a fighter if that scared me for the other thing that I walked away with on that episode was a sort of sense of ethics, you know. Yes. I don’t know whether it’s to do with his faith or whatever it was. He seemed to see things in a very sort of simple, I wouldn’t say some simplistic, simple way. And the ethics that he seemed to bring to every situation really impressed me. Really impressed. Yeah. And the thing, you know, stemming from his dad younger days and then his faith, I think his faith plays a big faith is important. But it wasn’t like he was shoving it down your throat or anything. It just the way it felt to me was you say, look, here’s problem X, what do you reckon? And and he would he would just come out with a beautiful way of looking at it, you know, really impressed me, really impressed me. And how much does faith feature in boxing you in belief in thanking for having the opportunity and before you go out there and after you win and the gratitude

[00:48:22] And stuff just just told me about you sort of mindset and beliefs. Yeah. Ah, you know, it definitely I mean, I always believe in being grateful to. Oh my God. And, you know, that’s where I get a lot of my strength, patience. And, you know, you’ve got to be strong not just in boxing, but in life in general. We all have our ups and downs. So, you know, I’ve got a lot more strength through my faith. And any time we have if we go through difficulties and, you know, and boxing has been some things that even for example, I mean, my record is seventeen wins and three losses. All three of my losses were under very controversial circumstances. Is boxing is one of those things. But you’ve got to be strong and rise above it. You know, you’ve got two choices when you get hit with something, you know, with adversity, it’s all about how you respond, you know, if you’re going to be weak to overcome you, you know, and that’s going to be your choice, then you’re not going to be able to propel any further if you’re going to just take on the chin. But like, you know, OK, I’ve been knocked down. I’m going to dust myself off and get back up and push on. And that’s what makes champions.

[00:49:38] That’s what makes people great. People always remember Thomas Edison for inventing the light bulb. How many times did Thomas Edison fail? Countless times, countless times, you know, you know, you will remember that, you know, when you look at an iceberg, you know, destruction beneath the sea, you know, it’s huge this year. It’s almost like a triple what you see at the top. And this all the underneath and all that sort of hard work, dedication, the difficulties that people don’t see through it. Maybe there’s earning is billions today. That is billions. He grew up in a room. He grew up in a place. It’s like, you know, just a small room. There’s about ten people in there. You know, he didn’t grow up with a silver spoon. You know, he worked his way hard in order to obtain the success and earn all that success and wealth that he’s done. And I’ve been very fortunate where we started late, late night sessions with Floyd Mayweather. So another thing that I sort of picked up from him and Danny Williams were doing my fight times close to my fight times. I’ll train at night. So mirrored the time of my fight for circadian rhythms and to develop your timing with boxing. And that’s something also I picked up my school science back as well.

[00:50:53] So in that time. So Floyd Mayweather, he you’d be training at night and then there’d be times where he’d just sit and talk with us to sunrise, you know, just giving us pearls of wisdom, you know? So it’s about how you respond. And faith has given me just the ability to look and analyse things, not just think, you know, look at things beyond what they are. And it’s like when I had my last controversial loss, I was six and three, six wins, three losses, you know, and I remember people looking and thinking, oh, yeah, you know, maybe you know that. So, you know, he can stop. You can carry on. How are you going to carry on someone to carry on? You know, all thanks to God today I’m seventeen and three. You know, I didn’t look back. So I get a lot that, you know, faith strength through, you know, through my faith, you know, and, you know, I get a lot of that strength, you know, through God. And I always pray I’m not I’m not a perfect person. I have my mistakes. But I always I’ll do my prayers and I’ll do my prayers a day, you know, just takes five minutes of my schedule to draw, you know, to just thank my creator remember him and just gives me that moment of just coming out this quick, such, you know, life is so fast, it’s so dynamic.

[00:52:15] And you just get like five, ten minutes out. You just stand before you create. It’s just you and him and you just talk to him, you know, and he just, you know, gives you that solace, that tranquillity, that sort of serenity. And it’s, you know, I you know, that’s why I’m one of the advantages I’ve had been pleased with my and I’ve been able to travel, you know, I love travelling. I love seeing the world. I love nature, you know? And again, you just look at all of those things and you just kind of you know, you remember God, the creator of creation. Just think of, you know, wow, what an engineer, you know, space star, not, you know, not astronomy. And I look at these things and it just it just, you know, it just allows you to have a moment of time and it just gives you just gives us strength and it gives you that, you know, that mental strength that we talk about in boxing, which which you really need. So it plays a big, big, big, big factor in my life and my career for boxing for sure.

[00:53:16] Let’s move on to the next one, which is Elaine Elaine Hally, president, ex president of the VA, in many ways, one of the mentors of lots of people in the Digital Theatre, DSD kind of world. If what stood out for me was just the story of starting a practise in a town, in a town in Scotland and coming in and saying, I’m going to be private from from the beginning and and having this sort of the the the grit to keep on going in that situation back in that day. And if you remember, Prav opening a private practise wasn’t a thing. No. And I think, you know, what I walked away with from that was her against all odds attitude. Yeah, the. I’m not trying to paraphrase, all right, but it was like, screw him, I’m going to make a success of this, right. I’ve got so much conviction in what I want to do. It was it was inspiring. Right. And then and then, you know, being one of the one of the very few women in dentistry at that time who went on to, first of all, open a practise and a practise with a difference. Right. Against all odds. Then go on to become president and then lecture and then teach and act as a you know, be an inspiration to to lots of people, male or female.

[00:54:45] Right. Let’s not try and sort of. Boxer into well, you know, she’s she’s a female Leaders she’s inspired many, many dentists, right? Not not just yes. I mean, it came up then it came up in conversation. The one thing I’d say about her is she carries often the really feminine way. Yeah. Because, you know, it’s possible to be trying to be manly about things, even if you’re a woman. But that wasn’t that where she was coming from at all. You know, it was she was an inspirational leader coming from the other side of of things and sort of the collaborative kind of way of looking at things. But I really like Elaine. She’s she’s one of my favourites. So it was lovely to have her on. So take us through the opening as Scott was quite innovative thing to do. But when people didn’t really open sports, I mean, of course, some did take us through that. I mean, are you the kind of person who jumps into things with full confidence or did you have anxiety about it using your parents money?

[00:55:50] That I didn’t use my parents money,

[00:55:54] Not that they offered, but

[00:55:58] What we did want to do

[00:55:59] Is guarantee. So they had the guarantee, you know, they had to act at the guarantee for the loans from the bank. Yeah. And do I jump into things? I think I think I logically look at the pros and cons. I had a plan and I just took it step by step and kind of didn’t. I’ve never particularly worried too much about what other people think, although then sometimes it comes as a shock when I realise people do think things. And so I got a lot of a lot of stick for opening a practise in a city where I wasn’t known. And I actually got some quite nasty letters from some of the dentists. I was quite naive, I suppose. I did write to everyone saying I was opening a practise single handed practise. I was going to be charging privately for the first examination. It was just the contracts. I’ll change the year that I graduated. So there was a big move in England where I had worked initially for dentists coming out the NHS. Scotland wasn’t moving in that way. So before that you weren’t allowed to mix private and NHS. And I, I started by charging for the full examination and then giving people options. And that was practically I would be really angered a lot of people by doing that. But I just I kept my head down and stuck to my guns and realised very quickly I wasn’t going to survive and an NHS environment because I wanted to be able to offer my patients the best the density had to offer. That’s always been I want my patients to have the choice of the of the best not to say that I’m the best clinically. That was never my that was never my goal. But to make sure that I understood all the different options and to be sure that people had choice, that’s what was important to me.

[00:57:46] Let’s move on to episode seventy three Jazz Jazzy Gulati. What an inspiration. I mean I’ve just joined his telegrammed group Telegram on Telegram. Now because it’s WhatsApp groups completely full, there’s not enough space for it. And while we’ve been talking on this podcast, but there’s been maybe 40 messages on the telegram route, I mean, is someone who’s leading a tribe of geeks. Yeah. And how amazing that he’s managed to sort of package Dental education in this beautiful sort of he he’s so into it and the people that are into him are into it. And there’s a group of dentists out there who I would put them in all of them, and that the sorority royalty is what they call them, who aren’t worried about getting sued. Of course they’re worried, but that’s not their number one thing. The number one thing is getting better, finding out what’s what’s what’s the sort of the latest thing. And and what do people think of this? How do we attack that? And Jazy himself, just his attitude is so, so sort of inspirational. So he’s got me back into dentistry, did whatever the merits of good. I don’t care what anyone says. I’m not. But he makes me want to pick up a drink. Yeah, yeah, yes. You know what? The thing the thing that I walk away with when it comes to jazz is his delivery.

[00:59:14] He delivers with humour. Yeah. As well as well as well. It’s not only humour though, dude. It’s not like it’s not a comedy show. No, I don’t know. But you know, the thing that I walk away, he delivers with humour. It’s not always with humour. Right. And he’s a he’s a real geek. Yeah. Real geeks down on everything. All the all the little bits and pieces he speaks about. And he’s just popped out of nowhere, right. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a household name now. Right. But he just sprung out of nowhere. Right. Just this guy with a with a beard and. A turban popped out of nowhere and then all of a sudden he’s got a show, he’s super geeky, he’s funny. I don’t know if it’s you know, I tend not to follow his Dental geeky ness because there’s no way I understand it. Right. But he’s comical videos that turn up on my Facebook stories and all the rest of it will always tickle me. But I’ll tell you something from on the content story, he’s he’s managed to sort of in business, we would call it vertically integrate so many who are doing a podcast. His podcast turned into a community.

[01:00:23] The community is turned into a course, the course. Now there’s a telegram group, there’s a WhatsApp group. And again, another one who I said to him, tell me about practise. Are you going to open the practise? Because he’s the kind of guy who would do very well opening a practise. You know, he’s good. Good at good at people. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, I’m not going to do a practise, definitely not yet, because I’m fully focussed on the produce Arati and he should be too. But he’s got a long way to go. Got a massive audience in the US now, and I love the fact that that we’re now morphing Dental education into this, you know, this way of doing it. You know, the guy seven years out of Dental school doesn’t have another qualification. And yet he’s inspiring thousands of dentists in all over the world to get better, you know, more power to him. Really like the this of infectious enthusiasm that you’ve got for dentistry. I mean, did you were you a good speaker before? Did people come to you for advice or I mean, you seem to like take it so naturally, you talk to people and you say enthusiasm. You have where did this start? I mean, were you one of these people? I was talking to Basil, he would say, no, he wasn’t top of his class and Dental school, were you? What was your story? Um, well, I was president of the University Dentistry Insights.

[01:01:48] I was always very active in that. I was very used to speaking and something that I was very much involved in. I don’t do the whole I was Mr Basils said I stay away from politics. Are the only two things I don’t talk about in my podcast is religion and politics. I stay away from that stuff. Everything always goes in the fashion industry, but I guess so. I was also without blowing my own horn, I was top of class. I was the first person before. I was very embarrassed in a way to say this. I was like I was very egotistical, but I’ve since had some sort of mind training to to change the way I perceive it, which is basically I was the first person in the U.S. to get one hundred percent in a clear and a final exam. And now I’m proud of the proud to say that. And it was a real something I really worked towards. So I was always aiming to be competitive and top of the class and aiming

[01:02:33] To be one with the community

[01:02:34] In a voice, a leader of some sort. Where did you qualify in Sheffield. Sheffield? You were you were you top of your class in school as well? Like before before I like sex and stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was always what I was thinking about the origin because I knew come the podcast, where does it all originate from? And I can pinpoint it to when I was six years old. So if you go back far enough, I’m sure I’m a refugee. I was born in Jalalabad, Afghanistan. I came here when I was six years old in a word of English, and my earliest memory of achievement was in year two at the time. And there was this massive board at the front, the class with everyone’s name on it, and who got 100 percent in the spelling test. So everyone had all these stars every time you get the sense that you get a gold star. So obviously everyone had all these stars and I was the only one without a star. And it went on week by week by week. I never had a star and I just made it my mission that one evening to practise writing these three and four letter words, cat, home ball, that kind of stuff, practise, practise, practise all night. And I’ll never forget that moment. I got my first gold star at age six and from there it was I was addicted. I was addicted to achievement. And that’s been a big driver for me. I just want to constantly do things. I’m one of these guys who has this massive to do list. I’m like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. If I’ve done something I wasn’t on the to do list and put it on the list just to take it off, just get that feeling I’d done something. You know, this is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on

[01:04:09] One with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman,

[01:04:16] Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] When we’re building a website, a business conversation revolves around if somebody calls, you practise and it goes to voicemail. Tell me what happens. Yeah, they get an automated message. Have you got a human phone answering service on the other end? Who takes a message when someone fills out a contact form? Is there an automated follow Payman response? Is there a text message that comes off the back of that? Is there a guaranteed response time? What is that response time? Is there enough that hours response time service, you know? And so we waxed lyrical and we go back and forth just doing a bare brainstorming in terms of what happens next. And that really does guide the user experience.

[00:00:46] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:03] On this episode. We want to talk about digital marketing websites, all of that. I mean, the reason we’re doing it is because I’ve just engaged perhaps company for enlightens the website. And the process has been an eye opener for me. But really, Prav, I wanted to sort of take it round to, you know, not not about sort of our process so much, but more about what happens with dentists when they come to you. It must be a similar process that you’re following. I mean, the types of dentists your customers tend to be people who are pretty well versed already in digital and they kind of want to take it to the next level. What are the things people saying to you when they arrive and say, look, I want a website? Why? Why are they changing their website?

[00:01:49] So let’s let’s just take this back to its grass roots. Right. Is the you know, if somebody is coming to us and saying, I want a website and it’s a whole whole host of reasons, right from I’ve got this, I want something better. It could be I haven’t got anything. And I’ve been thinking about, you know, one of our slides, Hassan Hassan McGeary. Right. The guy should the guy should have had a website a long time ago. Right. He’s in the public eye. He teaches, etc., etc.. And, you know, my conversation with him was very much along the lines of, well, he said he’s been looking for the right person. And when he launches his website, because everyone’s been saying to him, where the hell is your website? Why haven’t you got one? Why haven’t you launched one yet? He doesn’t have a website. No, no.

[00:02:37] How does he sell tickets?

[00:02:39] There’s a course bad website that’s been done somewhere else. And even that is not true reflection of the. Let’s not go there. Yeah, yeah. He hasn’t got a website. Right. So the conversation he had with me was Jean-Noel Prav is a perfectionist, paralysed by perfection, this guy. Right. So he said, I think I’ve he’s found us right. And he’s been through all the usual suspects. Right. In in and outside of our industry. And he’s chosen us. And, you know, we seem to align. And he said when I launched this website. What I want people to think is is not had one before, but, my God, has he arrived yet? And does it speak? Does he speak in the language, in the tone? And does it reflect him personally? And does it reflect him ethically? Does it reflect his work? Does it reflect his TTG methodology to so many things? Right. And and then another client comes to us and says, hey, I want a website because my one needs revamping. OK, I want a website that performs better. This whole thing comes down to and I’ll break it down for dentists. It’s a patient consultation patient comes to you and says, I want a new smile. Right. And it’s your job as a dentist to understand the why. What is it that’s motivating that patient for a new smile? Is it is a functional thing? Is it the fact that they can’t chew into a crusty bread? Is it the fact that they, you know, they haven’t been able to eat a steak, their dentures keep slipping? Is it the fact that they could put their hand with their mouth? Is it the fact that they can’t go on day, socialise, perform at work, whatever? There’s always an underlying why I think a big part of this process, when we talk about websites, what Dental is, what what any client wants, what your team want, Payman is figuring out what the Y is.

[00:04:39] And that comes down to very, very basic sales. OK, so even when we start with this process, there’s a sales process and my understanding of sales is earning the right to make a recommendation. Yeah, and that’s the simple process of sales. Right. So when we talk about, let’s say what you and your team want, we talk about the user experience. We talk about when, you know, the conversation we had on the Zune the other day. You know, we look let’s say we take the above the fold experience on the enlightened website. And the one question I asked is if there was one thing that you would want a dentist to do when they landed here, what would that be? OK. Very, very important question. OK, and then as we scroll down, what’s the next priority thing as we scroll down, what’s the next priority? So take away fancy designs, take away beautiful copy, take away photography, and let’s get down to the, you know, the brass tacks of it all, the grassroots, OK? And walk what you wanted to do functionally, what you wanted to achieve.

[00:05:49] You wanted to book more appointments. Do you want to tell your story? Do you want it to push the message that this is an exclusive club? OK, and so what is it? So the conversation we had pay us what I really want them to do. Is enrolled in my free online training, whitening education, that is the first step I want any dentist to take before moving further down the journey. OK, so it was the Get Me trained piece. Another dentist may say, you know what, I my personal brand, I want to be recognised as the dentists dentist. I want to be recognised as the guy who teaches implant dentistry to a level that involves scientific, peer reviewed backing and literature, but communicates it in a way that’s non jargon because I’m not capable of doing that. So we have a discovery process and, you know, usually over a call, maybe a couple of hours, a couple of sessions, it’s me, my project manager, my senior copywriter, Bob. And we will sit there and we will go through a whole bunch of questions. We will learn about what their goals are, what their objectives are, what’s the voice that they speak in. Yeah. In terms of what is it that their patients want? What is it that your customers want? You know, when we talk about enlightened, we’re not building a website where you start campaigns selling cheap rice.

[00:07:18] A hundred and eighty degrees from there is a premium product. You’re at the top end of the market and you are speaking in that language, OK? And then when I dug deeper into your process and learnt that and know I’ve experienced this myself, you know, I’ve been in your office and there’s been some gel that’s been out there on the side. And I say, what’s happened? And you’ve thrown it in the bin. Right. And I’m like, WCF, you do in there. And you go, well, that gel’s bit out of the fridge. That’s no good to anyone. Right. And it goes straight in the bin. And I’m sitting there thinking, what a waste. And you’re sitting there saying, hey, these are our values, buddy. Yeah. If that’s been out in the fridge for this period of time, it goes in the bin. It’s not going anywhere near my customer. So I’ve experienced the. How do I articulate that on your website so that a dentist understands. But what’s the difference between this experience that you’re delivering and another experience that they may get a, you know, a cheaper price? It’s that. And the same with a dentist when they’re delivering all on four same day teeth treatment or whether they’re delivering porcelain veneers or whatever is we really need to dig into the detail of it. So we go through this discovery process. And this dude,

[00:08:38] Sorry, sorry to interrupt you. What percentage of people who come to, you know, what they’re about and then you must get people who come to you just don’t say I’m a dentist.

[00:08:50] Listen, by the way, I look at it is the vast majority of people who think they know what they’re about. Figure out what they know there about once we’ve had that conversation. Yeah, and and that’s not to do with the fact that we feel that way, that we’ve got all the answers is actually they’ve got the answers. We just need to pull it out of that

[00:09:15] Is what I my feeling about that day was that you’re looking at it from the target perspective. So my target on the let’s say the dentist website is the dentist. So so I say, oh, enlightened, we’ve got our system. We do this. When you keep looking at it from when I’m coming onto this website, how do I feel about it?

[00:09:40] Yes. So what you’ve just said there in my role in this whole thing is to be the chameleon, OK? And so if I’m speaking to a dentist, I want to step into that. I should choose whoever that patient is. And I want to ask them, who am I, how old am I? Where do I live? Where do I hang out? Yeah, and what does my disposable income look like? OK, those sort of things, so I can step into that individual shoes as a chameleon and then start speaking in their voice and see and see if there’s a there’s an alignment. And sometimes we have that conversation and it takes two or three of those attempts to figure out who is the patient or who are those groups of patients. Right. And so when I stepped in the shoes of a dentist for you guys that day, I was stepping in the shoes of a dentist who knows what he’s doing. I was stepping in the shoes of a naive dentist and I was stepping in the shoes of several of my clients, both new and old, experienced and inexperienced with whitening conversations that I have had with them and whitening conversations that you’ve had with them. Right. And then taking all the audience into account. How do we articulate what you want to articulate to them in a language that isn’t Pei’s language, that is your own lexicon, that your team understand, but maybe they don’t. Right. And so in answer to your question, how many people know what they want? There’s a lot of people who think they know what they want. Once we break it down, it’s an education for us and them and think.

[00:11:25] Let’s get to let’s get to tone of voice. Yeah. Because, you know, your process seems to be that its first copy Leaders led first and foremost by what we can to say. Yeah. Is that is so you find that’s the easiest way of doing it or the right way of doing it. But go. Oh, I was going to say, look, we had an in-house copywriter, which we no longer do. And then you’ve got a couple of superstrong copywriters, dude. I mean that tone of voice question short. So surely you did Rona’s website here and and you also did Hassans website.

[00:12:04] You make doing assessment process in the process. Yeah.

[00:12:08] Yeah. But do you find that you I mean, I know. Put your copyrightable to absolute star, but can he chameleon himself into into being Rona’s voice and, you know, young fun, you know, lady and also Hassans voice and be different enough every time. I mean, he’s having to do that week in, week out

[00:12:31] The somebody’s way better than I can possibly imagine. Yeah. And it’s amazing, you know you know, the experience I went through before hiring Bob. OK, yeah. And how many frogs I needed to kiss along the way. And and my look, I can write well OK, I’m an OK writer. And, you know, one of the prerequisites was that somebody who writes for us and us has to be able to write and exceeded my expectations. Right. So Bob has got this ability to be able to have an in-depth conversation with someone and distil it down to what that person wants. Let me just give you a couple of examples. We’ve talked about Rohner and we’ve talked about Hassan. Yeah. So I’m just going to it’s going to bring those two experiences up on my screen. Hassan is a work in progress. Wrona is a a work comp.. OK, so if we look at this and we just start reading the headlines of Rona’s Right. From a boutique practise in the heart of Kensington and Chelsea trailblazing, Dr. Rhona Iskander is shaking up dentistry with a fresh approach to small transformations. Her modern cosmetic style has earned a legion of loyal fans both at her London clinic and online, where her signature hashtag, Chelsie Look, is Instagram’s famous.

[00:14:04] Favore is also seen Rohner attract a who’s who of celebrity clients while becoming the media’s first choice voice on burning Dental issues. Dot, dot, dot. OK, so that’s Rohner tone of voice, a stepped into Roen issues. We spent a lot of time interviewing and we’ve got that out. Let’s flip to Hassan. What’s the science of new possibilities? I couldn’t be a successful cosmetic implant dentist without clinical research and lecturing. It’s all of those things together that motivate me to be a better clinician. Consumate implants ology when dentists want to study the art and science of implant dentistry. Dr Hassan Megaera is the educator of choice. Hassan’s work as a cosmetic implant dentist, researcher and educator has cemented his name amongst Implants College’s leading lights whilst helping to define and advance the field. Dot, dot, dot. OK, you can see there that we have two tones of voice that are 180 degrees apart, and I think I’m confident enough to say without disrespect to Hassan or disrespect to Rohner, that Rona’s patients won’t go to see Hassan and Hassan’s patients won’t go to see Roanne, OK, that they will polarise and attract and detract patients appropriately just through that.

[00:15:38] So, yeah, you know what? Do what we were impressed as a team, what we were impressed with with him, as was how quickly he managed to immerse into what we were saying. So, yeah, not not in this conversation in the previous one and how long it took for me to get my in-house copywriter to immerse in enlighten. You know, it could have probably months. And Bob did it within one Zoome call, immersed himself and got the essence of it. But the other the other thing. That’s one thing. The other thing is there wasn’t a single word that isn’t necessary, you know, like the Naked Chef or whatever there is. There is a single single ingredient in there. That’s Domun is almost a minimalist on words is,

[00:16:26] You know, what he says to me, right. Is when he’s editing my work. Yeah. He takes what I’ve said and applies brevity to it. Yeah. It says it in less words. Yeah. Articulated in a much better way, but still in my voice. Yeah. And I think there’s a lot to be said for trimming things back, shorter sentences and making things punchy.

[00:16:50] Or perhaps. Look, we’ve got the words now, but surely before the words, there’s a skeleton that says, you know, the website is going to be this is going to be the basic scaffolding we’re going to build on about this. That is the word, literally.

[00:17:04] So, I mean, the first thing in the in discovery before we talk sitemap. Right. And what that is, is what was the architecture of the site? And we start with homepage. So what are the key for six elements that you want to communicate once somebody lands on your homepage? What’s the priority of those four, six, eight elements in terms of what’s going to stay above the fold? What’s going to come next? What the key headlines that we’re looking at and what’s the key information that we want to get across? OK, this is a home page skeleton. Then we move on to, well, what in the pages are they? So there may be a team page, there may be an individual profile page, there may be a section on orthodontics or GDP or so or cosmetic braces or missing teeth. And then we go into like single implants, implanted dentures, fixed teeth, immediate loading, etc, etc. and all of that stuff. So we sit down and figure out right at the beginning of this project, what’s our scope. Yeah. Yeah. How many pages. What are those. What the page structure, what are they going to contain. And then we dig into the words. OK, so, so and part and parcel of that process when when I, when I spoke to you about tone of voice and learning prior to that call, will spend a lot of time reading their Facebook and Google reviews. So you would be so surprised at what you learn from the patient’s voice about the dentist. OK. OK. And listening to how their own customers talk about them has a huge impact on our view of things and then helps to shape the questions during that discovery call, which is really, really important. So so, you know, we get to the point where we have the copy ready to go.

[00:18:54] Ok, OK, so so we’ve got a basic sort of architecture of what the site is going to show. We’ve got the copy and the copy breaks down into, you know, hero copy bullets and details, right? Yeah. Then I guess you need what images

[00:19:08] Then it comes down to videos, assets. Right. So what assets? And it depends on the client. I mean, we’re fortunate enough and busy enough now to be able to specify what we want from a client before we agree to proceed. OK, so one of the things and look, this is has been a an evolution in our own business, right? So we want to produce something that we’re proud of. We want to produce something that clients are proud of. So we almost entirely insist on a photo shoot and we inform our client about this before even taking them on, because what we wouldn’t want to do is then say, OK, now let’s go and find some stock photography on Shutterstock or iStock or one of these Stopford and then ends up looking like every other website. Right. So we go through this process of working with a photographer, either one of us or somebody local to them. And we produce curated what’s called a shot list for the website.

[00:20:10] So we the shoot

[00:20:11] Before the shoot. Right. And this is the most valuable part of the photography process. Right. A photographer will just go in there, trigger happy, presses button a thousand times and deliver a load of photographs. What I’ll do is I instruct that photographer on which shots I want, which angle you.

[00:20:30] Are you the creative director

[00:20:32] On this piece? Yeah. Yeah, on this. Prelinger Yeah, absolutely. And what I will say about that is because we’ve done so many shoots, we actually provide the photographer with a visual shot list. So we say, hey, we’ve got this picture here, put my other dentist in here, stick a nurse there, and I want a wide angle with clinical background.

[00:20:55] Ok, yeah. Yeah. And because you’ve used the same photographer a few times, you guys speak each other’s language. Another.

[00:21:01] Yeah, yes. But we, we, we’ve recently worked with I’d say probably three or four photographers we’ve never worked with. And you’re not. The feedback from the photographer has been that was the easiest shoot I’ve ever done. If all of my clients were like you, yeah. It would be a dream because you told us exactly what you wanted. So they went in ready to put their finger on the trigger and shoot exactly what we wanted. And they had a shot to check off to set doneness, doneness. Doneness. Got this.

[00:21:29] Yeah, that’s how we do it with with our shoots too. So. Yeah. OK, so now you’ve got you’ve got some, some pictures of the practise and the dentist and so on. Yeah. Tell me about UX Prav.

[00:21:43] So user experience is, I think, probably one of the most important parts of of of the journey when building or putting together a Web based experience. And, you know, right at the beginning of this conversation, you know, I said to you, well, what did we speak about when we had that call? And it’s above the fold. What is the one thing that you want your customer to do? You want them to click on a button to sign up to your free online whitening education, webinar training? Call it whatever you want. Right. And so sometimes it can be it can be really interesting when having this conversation with dentists and they say, I want a book online, but I want a smile. May or upload your selfie. I want a contact form. I want a phone number. I want a floating bar that says, are you a dentist? Refer a patient, write. And then we go back to basics and we look at their existing website and I say, get me some data. Do you know your book online bookseller that sits on your website? Can you tell me over the last three months how many patients booked online and out of those patients? The bottom line, how many we knew and how many were existing patients? OK, and lead with that day so we can make some user experience decisions on what should appear? Well, yeah, it’s not like every website should have a book online at this or that, because you get to the point where you experience this thing called choice overload. Right. Given too much choice, they get confused and they don’t know what to do.

[00:23:22] Prav, it must be a nightmare with dentists because they’re so busy and they haven’t got people to do this job for them. I mean, how the hell do you get all the assets and all the info and all the data from them that you must have issues? Right.

[00:23:36] In some respects we do. Right. There’s one thing that we discussed before working with the client is we set out very clearly what we expect from them and we tell them what they should expect from us. Right. We ask for the contact details of those individuals are going to facilitate this process. And in some cases, it’s then in the majority of cases, is this receptionist that PM or this TCR, OK, who’s going to handle this piece of the work? So as long as we can delegate responsibility, it’s fine. The other thing that we’re very mindful of is dentists are very time poor and short attention span. On the whole, I’m not going to put them all into one box, but on the whole, that’s what we experience. So how have we designed our process to ensure that is easy to manage? OK, so just go back to the copy. Once we’ve once we’ve written the home page copy, Bob, we’ll ask for 10 minutes of their time, lunch hour, whatever. Right. And he will spend that 10 minutes reading the copy to the dentist. Close your eyes. I’m going to read to you now, OK? Just like you would read a story to a kid, that process in itself accelerates our web development process hugely because if you email that word document to the dentist and then that in your own time, get back to me.

[00:25:00] Yeah, just add two weeks to the project, comfortably insulated in that a couple of emails and a had a chance to read the copy. Have you got round to it. Yeah. Just give me 10 minutes at this time of books and with your PM at this point we read it, we have an instant feedback rather than over six emails. Yeah. Boob job done. Rinse and repeat the same process for the other pieces. Right when we go, when we are moving forward a bit. But when we move over to design. Yeah. What I’m going to present is the MVP, right. The minimal viable product to the dentist. One step outside is your home page. This is what it looks like is the UX. This is what that looks like. This is how it functions. Let’s not talk about the team page. Let’s not talk about your Invisalign page. Your implant pages.

[00:25:54] Are you is the home page your actual home page or is a version of it? It will be a witness. So when you say MVP, though, will it look like it will look correct?

[00:26:09] Correct. It will almost be. It will be a graphical wireframe of the home page,

[00:26:16] But it won’t be working.

[00:26:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That includes photographs and stuff. But it won’t be coded. It will not be coded. Right. So a prototype. But the Boompa in this whole process is that we want to make sure that every single step of this process that the dentist has got the minimum amount of work to do to make a decision, OK, and when we go down that decision making tree, there’s two options. Do you prefer this or this? What do you think about this option or this option? What do you think about this list? The same applies to booking appointments for patients Monday or Tuesday. I’ll take a Tuesday morning or afternoon. I’ll take an afternoon. I’ve got a four o’clock or five o’clock. I’ll take the five o’clock great books and tell the patient to pick their own times. Yeah, see, in 20 minutes, you still haven’t bought the appointment yet. So we need we lead that conversation and we guide our clients along along the right path. But take us back. Four or five years ago, this whole process was a disaster. I you know, web development projects, emails, feedback, emails, feedback, mistakes, all of that. And I’d like to say that, you know, we’ve honed our process and after every single projects that have what’s called a post-mortem, so we sit down as a team and say, OK, so what were the positives? What were the negatives? What could have we done better? How could have our process been improved, et cetera, et cetera? Right. And who needs some more training on this than the other? And then the next one’s better and better and smoother and so on and so forth. Right. It’s about continually improving. So what do you want? So we’re going back to this thing. What do you want that patient to do? OK, now if I find out,

[00:28:05] What do people say? I mean, people say, I want to. I want to. I want the patient to contact me.

[00:28:10] Absolutely. OK, so then we go down the route of, OK, so what’s priority, phone calls or emails, OK?

[00:28:18] Do some people say email?

[00:28:20] You have a lot of people say I’m not losing it because, you know, prior to that, we’ve had a conversation about their reception. Yeah, we’ll have dug in to say, OK, I’m going to ring your practise 10:00 a.m. What are the odds that someone’s going to pick up? In fact, sometimes during those calls, we’re on a Zoome call similar to this. And I’ll pop their practise number into my mobile and I’ll ring the practise. And I say, look, you’re going to experience what your practise are about to deliver to me right now. Right? Just hot seated there and then more often than not goes through to voicemail. OK. And that in itself, you know, it really does open up, you know, a sense of reality for that, for their own dentist practise or whatever. And so we’ve got to think about, if you missed the call, what’s the experience? OK, if you get the contact details, what’s the experience, what happens after and user experience? You’ve got your your question about user experience is the one we’re building a website, a business conversation revolves around. If somebody calls, you practise and it goes to voicemail, tell me what happens if they get an automated message? Have you got a human phone answering service on the other end? Who takes a message when someone fills out a contact form? Is there an automated follow Payman response? Is there a text message that comes off the back of that? Is there a response, a guaranteed response time? What is that response time? Is there enough that hours response time service? And so we waxed lyrical and we go back and forth just doing a bare brainstorming in terms of what happens next. And that really does guide the user.

[00:30:05] It hit me, hit me, hit me with a gold gold standard. If you could have everything you know fully, you know, you’ve got you’ve got all the resources in the world. What’s the gold standard for the form? Phil comes in? What happens next?

[00:30:25] Ok, so the phone still comes in on the phone, so what I want to do is ask for depending on the type of phone, right. And depending on what your goal is. Right. Do you want. Low volume. High quality, do you want high volume, medium quality? You’ve got someone to process that. So once we’ve been through that and let’s assume they just want volume for now and we can talk about other ways of generating lower volume, higher quality. Right. But let’s say they just want high volume. So the minimum date the High want to see is a name and email address. A mobile number and then whatever they’re interested, how can we help? What would you like to change? Something like that? OK, so we get those pieces of information and then the first thing that should happen is a text message goes back to that patient saying, hey, Prav, sorry,

[00:31:26] Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. If the person doesn’t fill out one of those full fields, he can he still send it or

[00:31:34] Know that those would all be required fields.

[00:31:37] But doesn’t that put some people off then or you don’t care.

[00:31:40] Don’t care, because for me, I would say that you

[00:31:43] Want the minimum

[00:31:45] Buddy, that’s that is like the bare bones minimum, a mobile number and an email. Yeah, OK. It’s a barebones if I’m just collecting email, then it’s a lead magnet or something like that. Right. And I’m sending some automation off the back of that and I’ll get the mobile number later. Yeah, but that’s the bare minimum. OK, so, so

[00:32:03] Suddenly it comes in,

[00:32:05] That lead comes in, they get an instant text message. Hey Prav. So they put my first name from the name field. And so if I put Prav Solanki in there, the software will look for Prav space rejects. Take my first name and insert that in the text message. Right. A Prav. Thanks for your Dental implant enquiry. This is joal a kiss Dental. When would be a good time to talk. Questionmark. And that’s fully automated, fully automated now if that patient then texts back. Straight away, straight away. Step one was the most important thing when we talk about enquiries, right, is starting a conversation, right? You have just started a conversation with someone and somebody responded. When you send an email to someone, what is the one action you want them to take? Respond. Yeah, not book an appointment. Just respond. Yeah. When you say hello to someone, what you want them to do, say hello back. OK, that’s all we’re looking to do is start a conversation so that text message conversation starts. OK, is that person somebody who wants to respond on text or have this mini conversation on text call. So, so we go back and forth with one of our team and they may get them booked in.

[00:33:27] In the meantime, we remember the first one was an automated one. The patient responded now. Now the team member gets on her phone or somewhere. So alert and alert and she comes back and says, starts talking, starts talking to us, finding out about them.

[00:33:43] Yeah. So they engage some nice some may not respond. OK, yeah. At the same time, at the same time, an automated email response goes to the patient. Hey Prav, thank you for enquiring about Dental implant’s here at our practise. We love changing patients lives through implant dentistry is Joanne story. She was southbury as a loose Dental aware of the many years and bla bla bla bla bla.

[00:34:14] We really look into it. So, so, so, so, so. So was there a drop down that said I’m interested in dental implants?

[00:34:22] No.

[00:34:22] Bellison So how, how did the automation know it was an implant.

[00:34:27] So two things. Two things. Number one, sentiment analysis. Yeah. And number two, I’ll talk to you about it in second. And number two. Is that phone set in the Dental implant page? Yes, we see it seems so strange. All right. But so if I’m stuck on a Dental implant page and enquiring about dental hygiene. Yeah. So here’s the piece. The if I’m going to order some off the back of an implant page, then if I’m going to hedge my bets on that enquiry’s implant related nine out of 10 times, I’ll be right. Probably nine point five. So that’s how that’s how we know. Yes. So an automated email goes out, tells them about who we are, what we do, what our experience is. And by the way, here’s some social proof, OK? Case study, video, embedded, Google Review, whatever, just to share some social proof, OK? It also speaks to the fact that a member of our team will be with you shortly. To specifically answer your question, what’s really important is automation is fantastic. OK, it’s brilliant. OK, but you cannot replace the human element. OK, so the human then comes in at a later date, a later time, and then speaks to the nature of what that patient’s issue is. It might be a phobia. It may be something to do with a loose denture, whatever. They may have a price query, whatever that is. And, you know, we could do a whole episode on Just Communi, the digital communication piece, right? Yeah.

[00:36:10] So in general, in general, in the practises that you work for and in your own practises, that human is is one person, irrespective of what the enquiry is about or if it’s an implant enquiry, somehow the right human gets onto that.

[00:36:27] So so in my place we’ve got three people who who do that full time. Three full time. Three full time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now. Those three people have had product knowledge training so that they know implant dentistry, orthodontics, general andoh as well as each other. Part of their training has has involved spending time in surgery, seeing these procedures right at the beginning.

[00:37:02] And some of them, some of them who Dental nurses as well,

[00:37:05] Some of them are either Dental nurses or maybe, you know, in some clinics apart. And Dental nurses have sort of graduated from that role. But as I said right in the beginning. Right, the sales process of sales is just earning the right to make a recommendation. Right. How on earth can you make a recommendation if you haven’t witnessed or experienced or seen what you’re capable of delivering? Right. So a big part of this process is training, making sure that your team know the ins and outs of what you’re talking about. Right. When someone speaking about Invisalign and give you a simple example. Right. When a patient asks about an attachment. Right. I’ve heard I’ve heard this with my own ears. So we spend a lot of time listening to recorded calls between patients and our team. OK, she rings up and says, hey, you know, I’m interested in this line, but I’ve heard about these attachments that have to fit to the T. And my team member turns around and says, what catchments? Right. When the patient is educating you about your own product, yeah. Something’s going wrong. Right. But that is not the fault of that individual, right. That’s that’s our fault. As business owners and Leaders know, it’s in our team on that process. Right. To that education piece that I think when we talk about Praksis growth, one of the key areas is education. Yorty. Yeah.

[00:38:35] And education and enlightened when we’ve got, you know, leads and customers. Yeah. So Dental practise the way that would be a lead so far because they haven’t yet become a patient. Yeah, correct. For us we have a process from lead to customer. That’s the CRM customer relationship management process. It’s all there. Yeah. Emails get shut off and all that. What do they used. I mean Sofra Vixen’s and things haven’t got that in place if they

[00:39:06] Know they haven’t. And look, we when I started, you know, when I started out in dentistry probably 15 years ago, this was a problem I wanted to solve. We started solving it with spreadsheets. Then we moved to Google Sheets. We had a traffic light system, you know, so and so the whole process becomes unmanageable. Right? Then you get CRM systems like Infusionsoft Drive, Dangaioh, whatever right is. There’s all sorts of shapes and flavours of them, but nothing ever quite like the box. And it’s a long story short, once again, we could probably do a whole episode on this, but I’ll quickly skip over it is that we developed our own custom CRM system that manages the entire digital patient journey in a way that was mapped out in my head. And that was that was definitely served my practise incredibly well in terms of growth and some of our top, top end clients as well in terms of growth, because in order to be able to employ something like that, you need the problem first.

[00:40:11] So what does it what’s the main? The main problem it solves is that it keeps the team and and the business owner aware of where everyone is on that path from becoming from a lead to a customer.

[00:40:23] So there’s a few key things. And I think I’ll be able to highlight this is just one example. OK, yeah, I’m a patient and I’m at the process in the journey where, hey, I’ve got loose dentures. They piss me off, you know, I can’t eat what I want, but I know nothing about implants. I’ve heard just heard about just seen on Facebook. So I fill out a form. I’m not quite ready to jump to make the investment and I’m actually not ready to speak to a human being about it. Right. So I’ve just I’m not chameleon who stepped into the shoes of that one individual is at that stage in the sales cycle. And what happens is that I send an email and some salesperson rings me up, leaves me a voicemail, I ignore it. They send me some cases. I think, oh, this is interesting. I’m going to jump on Google, find out a bit more. Still not ready to make an appointment. Still already I learn about price maybe at some point within a two to three week period. I have a phone call with someone still not ready to come in and speak to a human being about it. I’m embarrassed. Whatever. And then six months later, I think, you know, my son’s getting married. Yeah, I want to be able to eat at his wedding. Yeah, anything could be an event that triggered me right. Of steps into the shoes. That ain’t right. But guess what? You know, that practise that I was in touch with six months ago, they shared stories with me, the shared cases and content in a non-intrusive way. Yeah, the team have been trained to be really gentle in terms of their approach.

[00:41:55] And now I’m going to pick up the phone and go in and see Dr. Bidjara. I’m going to have that consultation. I’m going to learn more about the process and the funding and the finance. And I’m ready to rock and roll is if the team hadn’t stayed in touch with me, I may have jumped back onto Google or Facebook if. The team hadn’t stayed in touch with me, I might I may have gone to another team, OK? And in the same respects, if the team hadn’t got in touch with me, you know, there’d be a whole new consideration journey. Right. So what is the CRM system doing? Is staying in touch with the Payman automatically in an automated fashion is prompting my team to stay in touch with that patient. But it’s allowing us to do that at scale because I have just given you one example of a single patient with a single problem at a particular stage in the buying cycle. Multiply that by numerous stages, different treatment modalities. A thousand enquiries, then you got a problem on your hands, right? And so that is the problem the CRM system fixes. And what I’ll tell you what usually happens in busy practise is they get so complacent because they’re busy, the detail of the individual disappears and gets pushed to the side. Well, let me tell you something that we have patients who contacted us 12, 18 months ago who then come in and spend in excess of 30, 40 thousand pounds on July each, implant dentistry just because we were bothered to stay in touch. Yeah, and that is a huge loss when you multiply it across the board. Solanki question.

[00:43:54] I love that. I love them. So now let’s imagine, Duga, that the patient contacted you, was contacted back. You did the content thing where you kept in touch with them. They decided to come in. They saw the dentist. The dentist made a recommendation for a twenty thousand pound plan. And they say, I want to think about it. Beautiful things, beautiful, but a lot of energy getting to this point, haven’t we

[00:44:25] Met huge amount of energy, right? So at this point, what are that what are those patients objections? Right. The biggest mistake we make either is clinicians, ticos whoever’s managing that process right. Is not getting to the bottom of the why. Yeah. Is it a price. Is someone else making that decision for you. Is it perhaps not the right time. Have I not provided you with all the information that you need to make an informed decision. Is there something missing here? Yeah. Have I articulated this in some kind of jargon, a lexicon you don’t understand here? Have you or anyone else got any unanswered questions? So let’s assume that piece has been taken care of and they still need to go away and think about it. OK, there is a whole follow up process.

[00:45:18] Is that is that the software as well? The same software, correct?

[00:45:20] Correct. Correct. So let me just describe the journey that it handles from the first interaction of getting their contact details up until the point where they’re referring their friends and family members post treatment and leaving a Google stroke Facebook review. OK, and every step an interaction in between, OK. And and in the ideal world, the dentist figures it out there. And then but let’s say that doesn’t happen. Right? And they go away and they escape. OK, always see that when a patient walks away from the clinic not having said yes, you’re not now or if they don’t say no always means maybe later. Yeah, it’s a philosophy I’ve applied to all aspects of my life, including marrying the woman of my dreams. Yeah, not now, maybe later. And so, you know, what is that process in that follow up afterwards? That is just the start of the sales process again. OK, now my team will say, hold on a minute. I’ve called this patient four times. I’m pissing them off. Yeah, it’s winding them up. They said they’re not ready. They said they’re not. So then what do we do? We come up with a library of excuses, a library of reasons to bring that patient up. So what happens is that a patient goes away. The first one is, hey, Mr. Smith, can you just give us some feedback on your consultation? Was there anything that you found confusing, anything you didn’t understand? Or would you like to come back in and have another conversation, let’s say that goes nowhere, and then a week later, they get a phone call and it’s Hajja one here from the practise again, you know what I forgot to give you when you left the practise our PDF guide to same day teeth.

[00:47:17] It’s a full step by step approach. It’s got some patient experience that if I got your permission to just send that to you. Yeah, second contact, OK, third contacts, another time lag. There has been and it’s Mr. Smith. We’ve just finished treatment on Sean. And Sean really reminded me of you. I’ve got these photographs. And with your permission, I’d love to be able to send them to you, by the way, if you’ve got any questions. OK, so when my team come back to me and say, hey, we’re really winding patients up now with our follow up, I see that as a challenge. I step into that patient’s shoes. I think how can I maximise the volume of contacts without winding that person up and sounding to saleslady and continually seek permission and increase rapport with every contact? Yeah, yeah. And it’s just a process, right? It’s been an evolution. So it just develops and develops and develops. And, you know, the most important part of this we should keep coming back to is the team training. Yeah. Yeah. I want everyone might be able to deliver that message in the same way.

[00:48:35] What about what about the dentist? But I mean, is there an emotionally intelligent type of dentist who understands why that patient isn’t going ahead? And then the opposite kind of dentist says, hey, I did it, I talked about it, and I don’t know why they don’t come in and they don’t get to train dentists, do we?

[00:48:54] Do we do. And what you know, whether it’s on a one to one coaching basis or we come in and fix the team or whatever, but a big piece of that comes down to what we discussed at the beginning of this call where you said when a dentist comes to you for a website, do they already know what they want? OK. And the big thing is they don’t know what they don’t know. And the same thing about this whole consultation process, some of them saying, hey, I went through the questions to ask them. I did this, I did this, and I did this in a robotic manner. Yeah. I did everything I could have done during that consultation. But when we when we break it down to to the core elements and figure it out, sometimes you find little gaps and holes. Right. Sometimes you figure out that. You know, the reason why this patient came into practise was nothing to do with implant dentistry. It was to learn if that dentist is going to handle their phobia sensitively. Yeah, the implant dentistry was just an excuse. Yeah. And it’s figuring out that these some dentists are far better skilled at this, you know, than than others.

[00:50:04] And for others, it’s just a learning, training and evolution process. But. If you think as a dentist, you can turn up to a one day or a two day course. Learnt sales ethic or whatever it is, yeah, and some great trainers out there, great trainers who can teach you the, you know, the key elements. Right. And then go in and deliver that to a high standard the next day. And carry on doing that. You’re kidding yourself. Yeah, it’s like anything, right, learning a new skill you need to keep repeating, you need to continue the training process. OK, so the clients that we’ve seen who have excelled really well have been those that who’ve invested in themselves, continually believed in that and then gone on to grow. And then it becomes second nature. And and then those team members go on to train other team members internally. Right. You always need an external person. Once you get it, you get it. And then you can go on to be the ambassador within your own practise.

[00:51:10] All right. But so I’ve got a website. I’m really good at sales because I know how to sell. And it’s second nature now. And I’ve got a good team that you’ve trained for me and I’ve continued training. I’ve got the software now. I’m looking to massively scale because I want to buy practises around the corner and I want to I want to be like, you know, the guy now then what’s what’s what am I thinking now as far as the thing turns into like a scaling story? Let’s talk about ad adverts, social media, Google. What’s the split would you recommend between social ads and and pay per click? Does it differ depending on the location, this sort of thing?

[00:51:52] And this is the biggest misconception that most Dental stuff. Right, is the statement that you’ve just made. I want to scale how much do I need to spend on marketing, how much on Facebook, how much on Google, blah, blah, blah? Right. Scaling in itself is a business problem that you need to solve before marketing. OK, that involves people, processes, execution, strategy and marketing. All right. So that what you just said there is literally classical everyday conversations I’m having with potential clients or existing clients. I want to grow on a scale. OK, so the question I ask them is this. Tomorrow I’m going to deliver a hundred new enquiries into your practise. Talk me through who’s going to handle them? How are they going to be handled? On average? Every is going to involve fifteen minutes to twenty minutes of processing time. Have you got the human power to do that at the moment. OK, and then how many more patients do you want? How much time do you have, do you have the dentists to deliver that in the right treatment modalities. And then once we fixed and figured out that piece, OK, then we go back to the marketing phase and say, right, OK, so we need to do we need to fill six hours of implant dentistry chair time. How many consultations does that look like? How many enquiries do I need to generate to deliver that, how much talk time have we got with the team, the CRM team in managing them? And then work backwards. OK, and then we can then we can confidently say, you know what, if you want to send 80 cases over the next two months or three months or whatever, whatever that number is and time period is, this is what we need to do to deliver it.

[00:53:53] It’s very interesting. So each each person is a totally different answer to that, to those questions, depending on the sort of bandwidth, basically completely.

[00:54:02] And look, as an agency, if I turned around and said, hey, no problem, I’ll deliver you 50 enquiry’s. Yeah. Your team can handle it. That’s your problem. Yeah. Shit leads, good leads, whatever your problem. And then they get to the other end and say, well, how many more date cases have you done over the last three months? And it’s like two. Yeah. And I tell what we’ve delivered is three hundred leads. Where the hell have you been up to. Yeah. Whose fault is that. Where did that go wrong.

[00:54:34] You I remember having this conversation with you two, seven, eight years ago, and you used to blame the dentists at that 100 percent, but it seems like nowadays you’ve taken on that mantle yourself. You know, when someone says to you, I want a website and you say it’s a lot more of you. This is the kind of thing you’re talking about.

[00:54:58] Right, because I’m a practise owner now. Right. And seven, eight years ago was. Yeah. So I’ve got an appreciation of what happens in that black box when those cogs are turning. And I feel a sense of almost feel a sense of responsibility for delivering success. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to be more involved. You know, that’s part and parcel of our unique difference in the way that we operate. And and all of that has come through in education of being a practitioner, seeing those problems, making lots of mistakes and trying to fix them

[00:55:35] And even even

[00:55:37] To present day. We’re tweaking things and making mistakes all the time and fixing them and then and then passing that on to our clients where we can.

[00:55:45] Ok, so let’s move on. Let’s move on. I’ve given you the answer to all those questions. I’ve hired the right people and now I want to I want an influx of patients. What questions do you ask me regarding OK, I say to you, OK, what kind of patients do we want? I’m looking for clearer Leaders whitening, a lime bleach blonde type patients.

[00:56:08] Mm hmm. All right.

[00:56:09] You what are you going to start to ask me the locations around my practise where the rich people live? How are you going to.

[00:56:18] There’s an element of that, but it depends on. So once again, in the questioning process, what type of patient do you want to attract? OK, are you OK? So so. So that’s OK. So are you the dentist who wants the discerning patient who will pay six K for straightening and you will do you will go above and beyond and spend more time with that patient or do you want to stack them in a two nine or two.

[00:56:44] Eight six. I want six.

[00:56:48] You want six. OK, so then comes in terms of the marketing piece. OK, comes back to the copy. What is our web copy say. What is the landing page say. What does the how does the advert speak to that patient. Right. So advert A vs. adverb adva a cheat. OK, yeah. Today we’re hosting an Invisalign Open day and on this day we are giving away

[00:57:13] A bunch free this free that free this

[00:57:16] Year Rollergirl because this is the best deal that will never be repeated again until next month. OK, yeah. So either A at the B meet Dr. Hughes. Who was honed his training skills on Harley Street for the last 25 years, patients travel across the country to have an experience dentistry with him. Those discerning patients want picture perfect results, demand the best materials are generally time poor and want appointments fitted around them

[00:58:00] To totally different patients,

[00:58:02] Completely different patient, completely different patient. Right. So what are we looking at? Cosper Enquiry A vs. B? What do you think the difference is? It’s mental. It’s huge. OK. But then let’s look at the cost per processing enquiry. Do you want to process 200 enquiries that came in cheap or do you want to process 10 enquiries? We’re having really positive conversations with discerning patient. You can have longer conversations and they’re not slipping through the cracks. All right. So it really does come down to what what you want. You want the six cases. You want the two. Nine, OK, how will we go in? What was the language piece going to be? What’s the targeting going to look like? So when you talk about you target affluent areas. Right. So then we look at where are the pockets of affluence around that practise? How far are patients willing to travel? Where are the private schools? OK, let me stick a pin point on that private school and target moms, because if I target moms and I pinpoint that around that private school, the odds are it probably got kids there that targeting works really, really well, by the way, especially for children’s private orthodontic campaigns

[00:59:21] Can

[00:59:23] Push that to one side. Whatever tactic we use. You know, when it comes down to the brass tacks of marketing, who are we speaking to? What language are we speaking to them in? And then what? Marketing does not necessarily have to be about discounted dentistry, of course.

[00:59:41] And don’t get me

[00:59:42] Wrong, it works. Yeah, the option A works and it’s great to scale and I use it in my own practise. So I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it, but you need the infrastructure to deal with it.

[00:59:55] And so where are you at regards pay per click. Are you still doing the.

[01:00:01] It may and it delivers phenomenal results. Right. We let let’s just look at you know, if we just compare social to paid search, we’re talking Google ads vs. Facebook stock. Instagram ads. Right. Yeah, Facebook and Instagram ads are intrusive. Yeah. The reason I will jump on Facebook or Instagram is to record a video about me trying to lose weight or fasting or see what Payman is up to, what many small make over or whatever. I want to know what my buddies are up to. I want to know what my mates are doing. I don’t jump on Facebook or Instagram to find my next dentist. That’s not my intention. OK, any ad that I see is targeting me. My behaviour and my attributes, my location and Facebook know more about me than I know about myself. So those ads are very targeted but intrusive. I may not necessarily be in the market for that at that point.

[01:00:56] Ok, you say that, but it’s it’s even more clever than that, isn’t it? Because if you haven’t bought or haven’t pushbuttons, it doesn’t send you as many ads. And if if we if you have it does

[01:01:09] The A.I. and the smartness behind that is beyond mine in your comprehension. Let me just put it like that, OK, it’s super, super smart. Push it. Also pushing all that to one side. The experience is intrusive.

[01:01:24] Yeah, it’s well there’s a push processor approach. Yeah. I get it.

[01:01:28] Yeah, it’s intrusive. I jump on Google and I say implant Dental is near me. Yeah. Those are my penis implant dentist near me. An ad pops up that says your local five star implant dentist hundred and fifty five Google reviews, balkwill free video consultation, something like that. I click on that. There’s some congruency between the ad that I’ve clicked on, on the page that I’ve landed on. I fill out the form, I ring the number, I get attached. We go through this process and I can right the hit rate, the conversion rate of somebody who converts through Google ads versus Facebook. It’s a much easier process. Yeah, quality is higher, but the cost of desire to usability is higher. But there’s a neat little trick that you can do, which is that if somebody has landed on your page via Google and you can retarget them on Facebook and Facebook and. Yeah, yeah. And that works. And I pull up face words. Yeah, it’s Facebook and outwits mixed in,

[01:02:42] And you have to have you know, we were talking about Carter Boort, talking about what Carter bought. People who like any human, they’re going to buy something. And they Vandeman is it is their version of that in the form filling piece that when they went to the dentist, when the patients filling out the form and they don’t push send is their version of it because they put their email address in Dumanis and pixelate it money.

[01:03:14] Yeah, I was all over that. Right. So this is GPS so that he types their email address in and doesn’t hit send. I’m sending them to other. Yeah, that was all cool. Right. But if they’ve landed on that landing page I’ve got them pixel now. Right. I can retargeted them with an ad that says, hey, yeah. What’s going on. Did you get disturbed? I can speak to them, I can send them. So what are my options when I’m retargeting someone who’s already seen it? I can send them in the same direction. I can send them one step ahead. I can choose to educate them. Yeah, you can send it over and send it off the right. So so what I could do is like fill out that form and maybe the next step is they fill out the form of video consultation. I could show them an ad that takes them to the next step and say book video consultation. I can send them an ad saying Download a free guide to implant dentistry. Yeah. Or an ad that takes me straight back to the same place.

[01:04:19] So how about this? How about this. How about this? Let’s say all other things being equal because it’s all in the same practise. Yeah, the sales ninja’s, the same sales Nanjo, the the the Leaders it all came from the same pipe. What’s the difference between from one dentist to another order of magnitude. Are we talking as far as lead to conversion to word of mouth. Is it huge.

[01:04:43] Sorry, I don’t understand your question.

[01:04:46] So, so. So you’ve got that within within the same practise. You’ve got three dentists. Yeah. It’s all the same practise of the process that everyone went through. The patients went through to get to those dentists was the same. Yeah. So the only variable now is the dentist. Yeah. Out of those three dentists. What are we talking as far as conversion rate and what is it, what’s the difference.

[01:05:12] Huge outrage. Yeah. You put all the systems and processes in front of them and behind them into the side of them. Yeah there are. So, you know, there are there are some human beings who just manage to connect at a level with patients that, you know, they just they convert, OK? And there are some dentists, you know, who at best do a mediocre job, OK? And we see that, you know what? We pull the numbers each month and look at the conversion rates of of people across the board per treatment modality. Right. Fellows, break it down into treatment because we know, like, you know, what’s the conversion pay was conversion rate on average. Ortho patient is an average implant patient versus someone who has been referred for Endo. Right. Why is that random guy got a hundred percent conversion rate base? It’s been referred. Yeah. And so we always break it down into the different treatment modalities. But even when you’re looking at it, let’s just say also constantly, you’ve got three clinicians who do also in your practise is huge.

[01:06:18] And so you take it back to the

[01:06:20] We feed back to them and we help them to improve. OK, that’s the important thing. And some of them I mean, example, some of them want one particular dentist just used to take too long for his consultations. Right. And it was it was information overload for the patient. So the conversion rate was really low. So we sat back, we went through the consultation process and we filmed it all down. And I said, I know you want to deliver this, right? I know you want to deliver this. Do it at the treatment plant. Hand over, please. Yeah, do it. Do it at the stage where the patient said, yes, you do with the consent you do in the handover. And given the extra detail at this stage, this is the salient information you want to get from the patient. This is the salient information you want to deliver. And and we and we see a list. Right. So there could be a whole range of reasons why they’re not converting as well. But, you know, may you run courses for dentists all the time, OK? You’ve got your you’ve got your charismatic guy or girl in the room. You can speak to anyone from any background and flow and have a conversation.

[01:07:29] No, I get it. I get I thought I thought maybe there’s an element of coordinator who’s so hot, you know, getting down to the do you want to go ahead and and maybe there’s an element of you can bring the dentist right back to clinical and you’re suitable or you’re not. And then the weather. Do you want to go ahead? Peace gets taken over by someone else. And the systems

[01:07:55] In many cases is a done deal. OK, in many cases it’s a done deal. And here’s the thing. Well, I always say about consultation and it depends on every practise is different. Every has got to know. Every practise believes in the TCO philosophy. OK, typical example, my brother. OK. My brother does not have a car, but he knows the inside. Seven to 10 minutes, he will convert that case. He will build rapport

[01:08:27] And he will get himself or himself.

[01:08:30] Right? Of course. And that’s OK. So everyone’s different. Everyone’s different. And so there are certain cultural practises where actually by the time it gets to the dentist, the finances are agreed, the details are figured out and they’re dealing with the clinical piece and just signing them up and consent them. It does happen. Yeah. In my practise, we don’t have a cold process as such, but we have what’s called earth is the leading edge, right? I’d call them Prisco or somewhere in between Absconder and the lead ninja where they’re not walking into the practise and having a consultation with the dentist without an indication of approximate price points. Yeah, and that’s the most expensive part of of a complementary or paid consultation is a patient. Come in and sit down in your chair thinking that they can get their teeth straightened for eight hundred quid or think in the case of an implant drilled into their head for a grand. Right. Isn’t they just you’re wasting their time. You’re wasting your time is not helpful for anyone. So giving them a realistic guide prior to that happening is a point of triage that happens with the lead ninjas. OK, and then after that is the piece that happens with the dentist, which, you know, can sometimes fall apart. Sometimes there’s just not that rapport bill or that connexion built or whatever. And, you know, and it doesn’t go ahead, but it plays an important part. What that piece also does is it helps you to shape the conversation based on how busy your business is. So a lot of consultants, coaches, whatever will say you must take one approach. Never see the price, always give of indication of price, just give a starting from price and then people coming or Prav.

[01:10:17] What’s your what’s your piece of advice and the answer that question is it depends if my dentist is sat there twiddling these thumbs for seven hours a day. Yeah. I’d rather have patients sat in front of him having conversations, him earning the right to make a recommendation. OK, and for those patients, I might give them just a starting from price. Our orthodontic treatment start from two thousand five hundred pounds upwards. That’s it. To take my practise at this current moment in time to get a patient in the chair for braces six to eight weeks. What do you think the conversation is that we have with the patients, and why is that different to the other guy? We can afford to be more aggressive because the more patients I put in front of the dentist who haven’t been triaged had. And at wasting time, right, conversion rate goes down to the conversation we have is the hour orthodontic treatment start from two and a half to six thousand. And sir, let me tell you that the vast majority of patients. It’s it’s slap bang in the middle of those two values now, that conversation is completely different because the patient’s expectations when they’re walking through the door is somewhere between, say, three to six grand. Yeah. And they’re walking in with within their head somewhere between four to five. Right. Four and a half grand, whatever. OK, they’re not pre framed with the two and a half K figure and being sold. Yeah, yeah, to answer that question, there’s no one size fits all for every practise or every business depends on the situation as usual.

[01:12:07] But as you say, it’s been an education, but it’s been an education. I know we’ve only just scratched the surface, but it’s been it’s been an education. Lovely. Lovely to get to the bottom of it with you, buddy.

[01:12:23] Pleasure. My pleasure.

[01:12:26] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders want history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:12:42] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it

[01:12:56] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:13:07] And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] We all know that when you go on a course, you take away 20 percent of the knowledge from that day and sometimes you’ve got to keep going back to the same course. And there’s course more than twice

[00:00:11] People say, I mean, you stupid and no, no, you

[00:00:14] Only take away 20 percent. And if you’ve had a night out after, it’s five percent.

[00:00:21] But I’ve done many small make over 50 times that year. Honestly, I still learn every time. Yeah, I still learn. I’ve watched that guy talk.

[00:00:31] Yeah.

[00:00:36] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders. Don’t destroy your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav.

[00:00:51] Solanki gives me great pleasure to welcome Amit Patel onto the podcast who I’ve known for. I don’t know, probably since you disqualified me. I’m it’s well known on the Dental sort of stage. He’s the founder of Dental Circle and someone who’s done a lot of postgrad education coming from a family of your dad’s dentist. So are there any other dentists in your family?

[00:01:16] Mum’s a dentist system

[00:01:17] To answer dentist. Wife’s a dentist.

[00:01:21] Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. I would like to start with early life. So was it you going to be a dentist for sure from the beginning or what you like as a kid?

[00:01:32] I guess if you look at typical Indian families,

[00:01:37] It was either going to be

[00:01:38] Indian doctor or a pharmacist or dentist or so. But my parents always said to me, you know, I might do something that you’ll enjoy, do something they’re going to job security. And those are the most important things value in my family. So I think with those values and the fact that I guess I am biased towards dentistry because I grew up with that, I sort of fell naturally into it originally. I actually want to be an architect. I was quite a graphic designer, school and design and technology, and I loved that. But when I weighed up the pros and cons of studying architecture or dentistry, architecture was a seven year course. And to really break it, you know, in that field,

[00:02:24] You’ve got to have a lot of luck, but you’ve got to

[00:02:26] Really, really work hard at it, you know, to get those big jobs and all those massive skyscrapers in London. You know, that doesn’t happen overnight. It doesn’t happen in dentistry either. But I did come to see an easy kind of route to maybe the lifestyle that I potentially wanted or the just quality of life, not just financially going down the dentistry route. I’m really glad that I did it. And I think it’s a great profession. It’s a great career to be in. There’s always been people, you know, trying to put doom and gloom on it. But, yeah, I love my job. I love working my hands. I love talking to people. I love communicating with patients. And I just think it’s a very rewarding profession, to be sure.

[00:03:13] But, you know, as a kid with both your parents, were they both working in Brickfield’s?

[00:03:18] Yeah. So my dad has I think over the years he’s had about three practises. Yeah. He sold two. And now Brickfield’s is his baby in Essex. That’s where we work together. And my mum, she’s always worked really hard. I mean, are really the cuts. My parents my parents were part of the generation that saw kicked out of Africa. The country when he was nine years old, couldn’t really speak English. Same with my mum as well.

[00:03:48] And Uganda.

[00:03:49] Uganda, yeah. Uganda and Kenya. So they didn’t come from a privileged background. And, you know, I look at what they’ve achieved in bringing up myself and my sister and what they’ve done with their life and businesses and investments. And, you know, I’ve read my parents. I think it’s obviously fantastic what they’ve done. And I’m just, you know, fortunate that, you know, I have had a privileged background because I’ve worked so hard. But, you know, I do read a couple to them because they came to this country with nothing and, you know, they they worked hard. So my mum, when she gave birth to me, she only really had six weeks of work and then she was straight back at it. I’m used to the nurses still joke that she used to take me to work and leave me in the extra room.

[00:04:41] So much.

[00:04:42] So why did they have they always been in Essex? Your parents,

[00:04:50] Another from North West London. Elder’s green. And my dad was West Ham is a West Ham fan. You know, my dad went to a really rough school. People were getting stabbed all the time. A lot of racism, that’s just where he grew up. So, yeah, I think that he’s like as I’ve said it many, many times, that I’m lucky I’m fortunate to have that support from my family because I definitely wouldn’t be where I am now without them.

[00:05:20] Did you feel you know, you’re saying privileged as a child. Did you feel privileged or did you know no better?

[00:05:28] I want to say privileged, I mean, I went to a private school. If you look at if you could meet me when I was 10 years old, you wouldn’t think I’d be doing dentistry. All the terror I even at 16, 17, 18, I didn’t think that I’ll be a dentist. I was bad. I was naughty. I went to a nice school, but it was basically a school for four rich kids and it was just you get away with murder. But having said that, I felt like it also means more well-rounded person. I was, you know, okay, at sports, I was I was never the brightest in the class. I worked hard at it. What’s I think put me in good stead. I do actually kind of have a photographic memory. And yeah. So I’m pretty good at picking out things quite quickly so that I think that has saved me.

[00:06:28] I used to live. I live with a guy like that too. Yeah. Annoying.

[00:06:33] I think that’s what saved me. But I look back. If my parents didn’t put me in good education then I probably again wouldn’t be where I am is thanks to them. I have I have obviously worked hard to to get to where I am now. But I think the initial push at the beginning when I was deciding on Jesus’s and A-levels, that really came from the home upbringing. But yeah, they they they bought me things that I wanted, I guess, you know, I was spoilt. But having said that, my parents have come from nothing. So it wasn’t just fed with a silver spoon. You know, they would teach me the value of money. So I’m and a big thing in our family as well is just spending time with our family. You know, we really have we’re really close. And I think that’s really nice as well. But, you know, I can tell my mom anything, so that’s also quite nice. I’ve been brought up that way.

[00:07:32] And are you older than your sister?

[00:07:33] Yeah, she’s two years younger than me. She’s doing her specialist training at the Eastman.

[00:07:38] You she you see.

[00:07:41] So when you want to study, where do you study? In London.

[00:07:45] I went to Leeds. Any place you would take these. Yeah, really. I mean, this is me living in the ethics bubble when my when my parents said to me, we have to go and look at least Dental school, I thought near Bristol

[00:07:58] How I get that

[00:08:01] That that Brentwood school education. They didn’t take you to geography.

[00:08:05] Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:07] So but I, I believe in fate. I’m a great I’m a

[00:08:11] Big believer

[00:08:13] And I had a few hurdles to to get in. I guess the first hurdle was I got rejections from everywhere else and Leaders was the only place offered me an interview. Solanki was buzzing about that. I went to interview, I got off on the next day. So hopefully they like me. And when the offer came through, it said I a b in any subject. Now, normally back then it was specified you have to get in biology and chemistry and a B or an and other subject, preferably maths or physics, but it said non-specified. So I accepted the offer straight away because it was the only place that would give me an offer. And it was an amazing offer as well. So I literally can’t accept because I knew I wanted dentistry and I got an email about two weeks after accepting it, saying, sorry, we’ve made a mistake. No. Yeah, actually, it’s not a B non-specified. It’s we want you to get an eye in biology and chemistry and an A B or something like that in physics. So I emailed them back. I guess I was quite ballsy and I said I accepted your offer on the basis of what you know, it was non-specified. I’ve had offers from other universities. I didn’t I just assumed they didn’t know that. And they were saying, OK, that’s fine, we made a mistake, keep it as it was. Oh, no. And I’ll end up getting to be in the physics.

[00:09:45] So I think I owe it

[00:09:48] All paid off in the end. Yes, I was quite lucky.

[00:09:52] So Leeds a great city to study and because there’s so many students compared to the size of the population. Yeah, but how did it feel touching down in Yorkshire from your sort of southern.

[00:10:03] Sort of my when I went to the ball unfordable, Volkers was four quid. You can imagine

[00:10:10] The

[00:10:13] Exact same thing happened to be in Cardiff when I was the first night it was I was buying drinks for

[00:10:17] Everyone.

[00:10:20] So but yeah, no, it was a great city. I mean, Dental school was fantastic. A lot of. Great support and teaching, I think the class wasn’t too old a year wasn’t too big, it was three seventy five people, so we got a lot of one to one teaching again up there. The socio economic status on the patients is lower. So we really got stuck in with extractions and deep carious feelings. I got quite a bit of experience, I believe. Great party town make great Connexions got a really good solid friend group. We lived in the same house with nine lads over the five years, so we had nine bedroom house. I think it was three floors. You can imagine what that was like. So yeah, we just we had a really, really good time and yeah, I enjoyed Dental school there and I recommend it to a lot of people.

[00:11:15] You went to the same sort of time as runover. You must

[00:11:19] Think she

[00:11:20] Was here one or two years above.

[00:11:22] You remember her back then?

[00:11:24] No, no, no. I don’t think Instagram wasn’t invented and I don’t think so.

[00:11:31] Then around how

[00:11:33] Long after you qualified did you do Dental Circle? Because that’s when I sort of started to hear about you. Was that soon after you qualified?

[00:11:41] I’m so in the final year of university, she started something called the Dental Network, and the purpose of that was to connect just Dental professionals. And again, it came from the fact that I if I had a clinical problem, I could literally bring out my mom and my dad and say, what do I do here? Whereas my housemates, with some of them didn’t have family Dental backgrounds or didn’t have the connexions. So I was lucky and I wanted to basically make something that would allow professionals to connect. And the whole point was having newly qualified people connecting with more experienced colleagues and the experienced colleagues would provide support and mentoring. And that all stemmed from the fact that, again, I thought I was lucky and other people could do with help that didn’t have the back, that didn’t have family background dentistry. So that’s how it started. I think I met a website man in Southend on Sea. He charged me four thousand pound to make a basic website and I was happy with it. And it started from there. It was just me, one man band. I was in the final year of uni and we know what to do. I created a logo and I got maybe two hundred members in six months. So then I qualified for university, did my Ph.D. in my hometown of Essex. So I loved Leeds, but I knew I wanted to come home and I wrote an article in Dentistry magazine. So FBC just about the Dental network and how I thought it would help other professionals.

[00:13:15] And the bottom of the article, you’re probably aware that you put your email address and details about you and I got a phone call from a guy called Dev and he just said, Hi, my name’s Dave, I’m a dentist. I seen your article. I think we should talk and also talk about what he was like. Well, I’ve been thinking about your idea, and I think you’ll be good if we’ll be partners. And it was literally like, you know, who are you? So we met up in blue for lunch and we had Nando’s. And he basically said that I think, you know, we’ve got something here and I’d want to be business partners with you. And it just stemmed from there. We found a different developer. We found the developer in Newcastle who specifically designs networking platforms. And we put everything in place, you know, licences, protocols, GDP, all lawyers, solicitors. But to this day, I mean, they’ve equal partners. We only have about five thousand pounds each into the business of our in cash. So ten grand got us started. And we’ve run that now for maybe six years old and similar seven years on. We’re coming up to and you know, it works very well. What if it was about one hundred and fifty thousand. It’s been valued eleven times. We’ve had offers from multiple people to buy it. So and that’s just from ten grand investment.

[00:14:45] I mean, look, there is you know, I’ve had him on this show as well. He is the kind of guy a bit a bit like Prav who can jump into business with 14 different people and and not really, like, have to know them in the first place. You know, Prav Prav owns a bunch of practises here and a business there. And he a bunch of other businesses with different people. I always say to him, how can you trust all these people? And, you know, someone like Prav he trusts isn’t even part of it. He goes in, ask the questions and and handles everything. And I can see there’s that cat, too.

[00:15:23] But you did. You did. You don’t think

[00:15:25] We’re going to business with a total stranger? I would never have done that. I would never done that.

[00:15:30] You know what is true or did you click?

[00:15:33] Did you really click and you trusted him there and that was it. I didn’t.

[00:15:37] I’m quite sceptical about these things. I take a lot of time to make those decisions. But you it’s always good to have a business partner, I think someone to bounce ideas off. And and that’s what I wanted. He brought more of the business side. I was more the creative and I think we just gelled. And now we’re really good friends. You know, we’re best friends now. He was best man at my wedding. So so we really you know, we talked to each other normally every day. And it’s all stemmed from that Dental three magazine article. And it really took off and it was on a journey. It helped build my profile. I got to meet with other companies. I got to know people like yourself and the Dental industry. So it wasn’t just about I mean, it was a business. You know, the purpose of it was to make a business out of it, but it made me a better person. I learnt a lot from it and have taught me a lot as well. And yeah, I think you just know that when you just go with someone and he’s, you know, I trust him and he looks the good thing about them is that he looks after people and that’s the nice thing about him. I can bring him up tomorrow inside, never got a problem and he’ll be there and you know, and be the same vice versa. That’s kind of relationship we have. And it’s nice when you get of any built that in the last seven years with him. But it’s owning a business together has helped develop that friendship. So it was purely business at the beginning. But business aside, we can just sit and chat like best mates and we want to talk about business

[00:17:13] And what is what is the business model? Is the sponsorship?

[00:17:18] Yeah. So we generate money from advertising, marketing, sponsorship. I guess the membership now going to be thirteen thousand dentists in the UK and we run courses. When Kovik came, we kind of put a hold on that just because it was more difficult to run courses during that time with the regulation. So yeah, now it just takes an online model generating revenue from that and building relationships. And we have really good, strong relationships with our companies that we work with. We’ve done the shows at Dental show. We’ve been able to have the standards and a presence, I guess a funny story from one of the shows, something I’ll never forget. I’ve had loads of, you know, family have helped us with this. It was a start up business. My mum used to come and help us at the Dental show. She would be there with Dental Saku Flyer’s Maddie would be the Krishna. Dave’s wife would be there. That’s what he needs. You need your family around you when you do a Start-Up, because we can’t afford to pay people wages. And we were running a competition with a whitening company and we had whitening boxes like the kit. And the promotion was if you signed the Dental circle, you’d get a whitening kit. But they were just dummies. There was no gels in them. So we had them all stacked up. And the whole purpose was, if you register on Dental circle, we would send you an email and you’d be able to collect a free whitening at a later date. But at the show, I didn’t see my mum for ages and I said, Where is she? And then she came up to me and she was like, I I’ve bit of the whitening kits. What do you mean, Mum? And she gave me about three to quit in cash the dentistry.

[00:19:07] So I said, well, so where’s

[00:19:13] This come from? Should I solve

[00:19:14] The one ticket. Oh one the ones in the stand said Mum there empty. There’s no gelatine. Oh she said, oh no. I’ve given the boxes. I said I spent half my time

[00:19:30] On the show trying to get my mum to explain what

[00:19:33] These people look like so I could give them a

[00:19:37] Pure bred entrepreneurial mum.

[00:19:40] We’ve had some funny times as well. I think the. Thing about that, and again, I think you know me, I like a good time and I, you know, a night out and connecting with people. So along that journey, we’ve had a great time building that business. Yeah, it’s just just been a fantastic experience and we’ve just had some great laughs along the way. And I think that just makes it that much sweeter and.

[00:20:06] Well, I mean, what’s the size of the organisation? Do you have any full time employees or what’s the story with us?

[00:20:11] Yeah, we got marketing manager, we got graphic designer and we got website developer all on retainers. So otherwise it’s just myself, my dad’s death. We just

[00:20:23] He

[00:20:24] He’s middle of the business. If you take a little bit of a back seat and people would sort of run it for us now. So that’s quite good

[00:20:33] For a lovely businessman or a lovely person. So then let’s let’s talk clinically. You know, you’ve gone down a bunch of different routes. So you’ve you’ve done your implant diploma. You’ve said you’ve become a specialist in restorative. When you were thinking of specialising, I mean, I don’t know,

[00:20:54] I’m not I’m not seeing the specialist register. Are you about to be the content that I’ve done? Yeah, because the Kings is distance learning, you don’t get specialist for just the status. And I never actually wanted to go down that route. I always knew that I wanted to be a journalist. And again, that stemmed from my father. He’s maybe got seven degrees after his name. And he always said to me that if you get the qualifications in. You’ll not only learn the skills and the knowledge to be able to do sort of high end quality dentistry, but you’ll get referrals. And patients will find you. So he said just from the beginning, if we can do it, just get cracking with the postgrads. And I didn’t have you know, I funded it all myself. I mean, honestly, I’ve probably forget the days out of practise. I’ve probably spent about one hundred and fifty thousand since I qualified just on pure Dental education. If you factor in losses and earnings from the practise, obviously that be much, they’ll be crazy money, but it’s it’s been worth it. I’m at a point now where I don’t know everything and you know that I’m not as experienced as you. I look at my elders and people that have more experience and I’ve got a lot of respect for them because you can’t be experienced in general practise.

[00:22:23] Having said that, I do believe and I’m a strong believer that what I’ve done in a short space of time, in seven years since I qualified, that I’m at a position now where I can kind of dictate the kind of dentistry that I want to do if I don’t want to do a filling. And I have to if I want to. In the end, I don’t have to. I can just stick to full mouth rehab and implants and I’m not the best at it. I’m always learning, but I’m doing these cases so I can I need to see long term cases. I’m doing it so I can learn from my failures. And again, protecting yourself from point of view. I want to be able to show my patients and have the backing of good Dental schools and colleges where I’ve trained. So I started off with the JDF. I guess a lot of people say don’t waste your money on that. But it was just something that you did, I guess. Now, if you don’t, you have JDF, you do an invisible course. So Invisalign is a new JDF for young dentists.

[00:23:25] Right.

[00:23:26] And that’s no disrespect to Invisalign. It’s just times have moved on. But when I qualified seven years ago, it was you didn’t JDF and that was it. So I went to Emirates Stadium. I took the exam. Did JDF got the qualification. Then after that, I did one year programme with the TII or learning how to restore implants. And the reason why I did that is I knew that I loved surgical dentistry, but I wanted to understand how to restore implants first before going onto placements. So I did that with Stralman and that was a great starter, but it never really pushed me. It wasn’t a course that I mean, I did learn a lot, but it didn’t push me out. I want to be pushed because I’m hungry for education. So I ended up doing a Maxxie in a research at field and that was a game changer for me. I would recommend everyone to do a year in hospital, even if you want to be a top 10 cosmetic dentist. It just, in my opinion, teaches you how to deal with problems. Yeah, and that’s outside of dentistry. It makes you think differently. And outside the box, I remember I have my first day on long call. There was a lady that had been in a fight and I was at three o’clock in the morning and the consultant wasn’t there. And it was a hospital where there’s no middleman, there’s no registrar, it’s just consultant and junior. And I was a junior at home sleeping. And my she came in and her face was light, like fucked.

[00:25:05] But yeah, her eyes were hanging out the bruising everywhere she couldn’t see and. Oh and I get a call saying you’re to come see this patient. I don’t know what to do. But you being the consultant, I don’t want to be disturbed, disturbed at three o’clock. And he was literally like, I mean what. And I was like, look, sir, there’s a problem here. I don’t feel comfortable enough to describe the case to him. And you just really have to think on your feet. I remember two weeks into that job, I wasn’t getting it. I just everything was going wrong. I didn’t feel confident and I’m quite confident person. But that really took me down a few notches. And I probably needed it because I was a bit cocky and I needed to be taken down a few pegs. And that was the job did that to me. And the consultant actually said to me two weeks in I mean, I don’t think this is working out. I don’t think it’s worthwhile you coming to work tomorrow. That’s what he said to me. And I was like, well, I went home and I was living with my parents at that time. And I told my parents and I said, I don’t want I don’t think I want to go back tomorrow. I think I’m done. I was two weeks in. My mum and dad were like, look, you know, I’ve never heard words like this from you, you know? You sound defeated like a broken man.

[00:26:26] I think I’m a broken man, you know, and they said, look, you’ve you’ve always got your problems. You just need to take a breather, a crack on, and you just need to show this consultant that this is the job for you and you’re going to crack it. You need to win him over. That’s what you need to do, even if it means kissing his arse for a couple of weeks and you’re his top junior. My parents said you do that because you change that opinion of him. So I went back the next day and that’s what I did. I put my head down. I wasn’t cocky. I got the job done. I learnt. And, you know, I ended up being his top junior. And after a year of that, he offered me a job at the end. And he said, I mean, you I like the way that you do work. I like working with you. Do you want to stay on the staff? I always knew that I wanted to be in practise because I love practise, I love restorative dentistry and implant industry. But he said, look, even if you want to go back to practise you to work part time and I was really honoured the fact that you offered me a job so I couldn’t turn it down. So I stayed on for another six months. It didn’t last longer than that because I had to make a decision to go into practise full time. But again, I had another situation where I was put in an adverse situation completely foreign to me, and I worked hard at it and I’m glad that I did.

[00:27:59] So after the hospital job, I started the Clinton for years at Kings with Professor Brownmiller and stupidly at the same time, I also started the implant diploma at Royal College of Surgeons. So same time. Yeah, so I had an excellent Dental, which is a double masters. I did that alongside the Diploma in Dentistry, which is also a master’s level, and that was tough. You know, I was working in practise and bearing in mind that Clinton every year you would see 12 essays. You’ve got to do the contact days at Kings and you’ve got to do three days of exams and submit five cases every year. Then the implant diploma. You’ve got to do ten essays every year and you got to submit cases and you have to do the contact that asks in London two days a month. That was tough. But again, I do believe I’m one of these people that has I’ve always had a great work life balance. You know, I’m not a geek and I’m sure you know that. And I know when to study and put my head down. But I also know when to have a relief and go out with the lads. And as long as I got that balance right. I was okay, and after four years in the Clinton and two years with the implant diplomacy, as I passed them both, I got distinction with the Clinton and I was chuffed about that.

[00:29:27] And I even got asked to go back and be a teacher on the programme. So I’ve done that with Brian Miller. That was really nice to be invited back and the implant diploma finished. And when I said about the I.T. course, I didn’t push me. The implant course asks really push me. That’s when I started placing a lot of implants, but it taught me textbook dentistry. You were not allowed to place an implant without a Worksop, without Steane. A full case report. Appropriate radiographs is how dentistry should be done without cutting corners. And that really, really taught me how to do things properly. Look after the patient. So we didn’t rush the cases and that implant diploma. Avivah, at the end, the final exam, that was probably one of the toughest exams I’ve ever sat. It’s got about 20 percent pass rate and you get grilled. I mean, they hand it to you. In my final visor, I presented a live case, then a three unit bridge in I believe the chamber went really well. And I was happy with the pictures and the outcome of the patient was really happy. And what is the exam thinking that ask questions about the sinus lift? Because that was what the case was about and they picked up on the tiniest little thing and they said, oh, I see you prescribe the patient arnica. And I was like, yeah, cooperation’s arnica pre and post op implant treatment, and they were like, let’s talk about Arnica mate for half

[00:30:56] An hour and I’ve got the guy with me

[00:31:00] On the mode of action

[00:31:01] Of arnica. Like, is

[00:31:05] It licenced in the UK? What countries is banned, in what doses do I use in what the side effects.

[00:31:12] Did you have the answers? No.

[00:31:17] So I was prepared for Sina’s live and he’s arnica so.

[00:31:24] But he was right. And you know what I learnt from it because he said if you’re giving a drug to a patient, you should know its mode of action, you should know its side effects. And I was like, you’re completely right. I’m a dentist. I’m prescribing I’ve learnt from it. So I think there’s always been something that I’ve learnt from along, you know, and

[00:31:45] These these courses, like you can say, oh, they they made a man of you, right. Because, you know, discipline, reading, writing, essays, course presentations and all of that. But I’m interested in two things, really. No. One. The value add, of course, to your other than making a man of you value add, but wouldn’t you and you do a restorative effort and then do they start at the beginning again and, you know, do they teach you something? Of course they teach you more than, you know, Leaders. Right.

[00:32:20] But, you know, I mean and you know, some of the best scientists in the UK just have a Bede’s, right.

[00:32:25] So do you weigh that up? Did you weigh that up yourself? I could do short courses or whatever. And and I said before before you go. Before you. And the second thing, your dad’s one of the top implant ologists around. So as far as implants, you could have just shadowed your dad for three months would have been a massive education, you know.

[00:32:46] So it’s always one of those cases where your dad spends more time with other people. He does his own son. You take it for granted. I’ll get onto that. But yeah, I the McLinden to cut long story short with is going back to undergraduate level. The first year I knew most of that stuff. I’ve done tons of courses. I’ve done many small Makov I’ve done for a man. I’ve done finless such as Dental course I honestly I’ve done why I believe some of the top top courses and I just want to structure that’s why I signed up to them. And then I want a proper teaching programme and structure. So with McLynn then I honestly thought is fantastic. But I say to so many dentists to ask me, what do you recommend? You have to go back into practise and what you’ve learnt on that previous day. You’ve got to do it, otherwise you’re not going to do it, whether it be Christo’s Course Aspire or any of these four year long programmes or Glenden or even my friends won’t mind me saying this. Some of my best friends of science and content, they’ve dropped out after a year because they don’t see the value in it. And and the reason is, is that you have to go in to that course and know. Right. I’ve learnt how to take an impression for full potential. I’ve got to find a Dental case next week and do it. And if you don’t do that, it’s a waste of time, wasted money. I wouldn’t recommend anyone doing it because you have to have that mindset that you’re going to go in and actually utilise what you’ve done and that it’s no different to one day course or four year course. It’s exactly the same. And McLinden is not going to make you a better dentist, not for years. It’s yourself doing the treatment on your patients that is going to make you a better dentist.

[00:34:44] What you do with that knowledge?

[00:34:45] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, they can’t come to your practise and hold your hands.

[00:34:50] You know, it’s so interesting you say that because I was talking to Chris, Griselle and we were talking about which they of his cohort, which days are available. Someone asked me, is it easier to get in on a Friday than the Monday, whatever it was? And he said to me that the Friday group are the ones that are most disadvantaged because they haven’t got the next. They’ve clearly always said it’s the weekend. And and he said if it was up to him, you wouldn’t do it on a Friday. But so many people walk to Friday because that’s, you know, traditionally the day they’ve got. Oh, yeah, you say that. It’s just the weekend is said.

[00:35:27] I’m glad that someone like him obviously is saying that because he’s really experienced and he’s been education for a long time. I’ve definitely learnt that. I’ve picked it up myself and I made a point. No matter what I’ve learnt, we all we all know that when you go on a course, you take away 20 percent of the knowledge from that day. And sometimes you’ve got to keep going back to the same course. And there’s course there’s courses on twice.

[00:35:51] People say, I mean, you stupid and I know no, you

[00:35:55] Only take away 20 percent. And if you’ve had a night out after, it’s five percent.

[00:36:02] But I’ve I’ve done many small make of of fifty times now. Yeah. Honestly, I still learn every time. Yeah. I still learn. I’ve watched that guy talk.

[00:36:11] Yeah I, I’m repetitious.

[00:36:15] I completely agree. So I would recommend anyone to go on a course and if it’s a photography course or dentures or composites or implants, you have to implement something from that course. That week is so important and with the modelling done it took me from a single tooth dentist to a full mouth dentist. That was one of the biggest advantages I found from that course. I have always wanted to be a former dentist. Yeah. So again, and you say, especially with the advent of Instagram, the social media, you know, there are people out there that on the photographs, though, did amazing online prep. It looks fantastic. Steak, you got a rubber time air abrasion, they bonded it with heated composite, but they haven’t understood the reason why the truth only in the first place. And that’s the kind of dentistry that I like doing. And I’ll be honest with you, I like making money. So me being a former dentist also gives me the quality of life that I now live because I’m not over treating the patient. I’m not a dentist in sales. I don’t sell to the patient. I literally have learnt the knowledge to explain to the patient, well, the reason why the legal costs for the lower six is fractured is because you’ve got canine way. So why don’t we think about restoring the wear on the front teeth and then we look at the back. So suddenly a patient that just was expecting to have a crown on a single molar is now walking out, having a. composites of veneers or crowns to treat the way. And I learnt that from the then that is one of the biggest things that it taught me was look at the mouth as a whole and it articulates the system as a whole and not I get it on the tooth.

[00:38:15] I get it. And I think we both know a bunch of full mouth dentists who do that. But that’s an interesting sort of aside. If you’d broken lingo CASPA, would you?

[00:38:39] If it was if I stop doing it,

[00:38:42] Then, yeah, because he can sell us.

[00:38:49] Think is an unfair question as to what nationality this is, because it’s not you, is it? Is it is a 50 year old guy who, you know, is going going down a particular car.

[00:39:01] Yeah. And look,

[00:39:02] I’m not saying that every patient walks out with a full mouth rehab. I’m just saying they open my eyes. And it was great that they did that because it makes my guests stay in practise more enjoyable. I like working things out. I like finding out the reason why something’s not working or why something of my work is failed. I like understanding. It was quite funny because I lecture F.D. quite a lot because I’m a VTE trainer and I did a study, I think it was last year and I always do the anterior and posterior crowns day for the vets. And I put a picture, I had a picture of my first crown as an associate and I put it on the screen and I said to them, I mean, there was nothing like what I’m doing now. And I said to them that this print is on the screen is overprepare. This tape is over. Tapered shape. Margins is not great at today’s standard, but everyone has to start somewhere. And I said of having said that with the knife, that it is that crown is still in place six years later. So it just goes to show that you can get a crown to fit onto that and it will probably be OK anyway. The next day I went to practise the bloody crown fall off

[00:40:29] And I come up against it. But yeah,

[00:40:36] I think yeah, it’s I like teaching and I like studying. I figure out why things are not working.

[00:40:44] Tell me about what you were going to say about your dad and shadowing him.

[00:40:49] So again, I’ve been lucky to you know, he’s been a great mentor of mine. My mum has been fantastic as well. My mum’s a great communicator. She’s worked in general practise. Thirty five years. She’s retired now, but she taught me how to not to to talk to patients and how to respect patients and just, you know, listen to my my is a really good communicator, but that’s always been very clinical. And having him in the practise is great support. But honestly, you don’t actually talk to each other. You know, he’s in his room. I’m in my room. We’re both on our laptops at lunch, doing emails or talking to the staff. You rarely actually get an opportunity to sit down and talk. And he will always he won’t mind me saying this. He will always put his students in front of me because they’re paying him.

[00:41:47] So if

[00:41:48] It means that he’s got a mark on their cases or reply to a WhatsApp, who are

[00:41:53] His students? What are what is he

[00:41:56] Is his lead tutor, the employer diploma osseous London.

[00:42:00] So he has a

[00:42:02] He has a town hall of delegates on the implant course. The you know, he has to mentor and he yeah. It’s honestly, it’s one of those things that people say, oh, you’re so lucky, you got so much help. But I’ll put my hand up if I did. I just say I’m lucky I’ve had help is actually not the case because you don’t actually get to speak to each other

[00:42:24] Is really you know, you’re only in a practise. You often you don’t speak to the other dentist, you know, because when it’s a lunch time is when if you’re busy

[00:42:35] And the staff is the only time that we can catch up with our admin.

[00:42:38] Yeah. Yeah. So what about this? I mean, I guess that you’ve been doing with annual just

[00:42:45] So I got this come about.

[00:42:48] I got roped into that last year.

[00:42:50] He’s one of my favourite people. He’s one of my favourite people in the whole wide world.

[00:42:53] So I can understand I can

[00:42:56] Understand how it could happen.

[00:42:57] He’s he’s a great teacher. He’s very passionate and he likes other people. He likes to see other people do. Well, yeah. Which is lovely. It’s a lovely trait to have some but a lot of respect for him because he’s happy to work with you to get better at your job. So last year we went into lockdown and I think maybe we closed the practise eighteenth of March. Twenty twenty. You know, we were scared, you know, no one knew what was going on. Cleo said you had to close. We were thinking. Where’s the profits going to get its money from? So it’s a bit of a scary time and we we all had three months of work, so I got a phone call from Nick Setit, you know, Nick Clever Dental. So I also work there and I don’t know if you know, but I’m buying into that practise. Yeah. So I’m going to be owner of Square Mile with the consent of the associate at that time Square Mile. And Nick said to me, look, Aneel wants us to do this exam. Are you up for it, and I just literally finished the implant diploma in the mail and then I said to myself, I’m not going to do any more studying. And he said, oh, come on, you know, you’ve got all the knowledge it will be up there. And I was like every bulletin on their exam. Then I got a phone call from Anel saying, I’ve heard you’ve told Nick you’re not going to do it. He said, you’re going to jump around and cut me a break. I need to have a race done too much studying and I want to enjoy lockdown. You know, I’ve never had three months of what

[00:44:40] I wanted to do that I’ve never done. I want to I want to be a gardener. So he goes, you can do your gardening another time.

[00:44:49] Just come onto the garden so that Magids is the membership. An advance journal, Dental Surgery, Osseous Edinborough. And you can only sit the exam if your minimum five years qualified and is basically a qualification of four dentists that want to advance their skills and knowledge and prove to people that you’re basically an advanced practitioner. So you’re not a basic level. You’re an advanced level in general practise, but you’re not a specialist. So and that’s again, what I wanted to be. I want I knew I wanted to be a generalist in practise and I wanted a recognition for that. I guess I wanted more or less off my line. Now, I don’t know.

[00:45:38] You know, it’s getting a bit ridiculous,

[00:45:41] But I like the idea of the exam and what it was about. And again and it was a lovely guy. And he explained the reasons why the exam or examination process would suit me. So we formed a little study club myself. Nick, Sanjay, Elain, you know, we’re we’re all alike. We’ve got similar in our passion towards dentistry. So we Formula Study Club and we started revising during lockdown. We all flew to Edinburgh in September last year and we sat the exam again. That was tough. It was a new exam. We are the second cohort to take it ever. Only one person had ever passed the exam.

[00:46:23] What was it? What kind of exam essays exam is?

[00:46:26] It was. And yeah, Vivas in Britain. It was, it was tough. Really, really tough examination process. Again, it’s one of those Vivas where. The examiner just looks at you, and if you’re not saying the right thing, they’re just like they did not the head look down

[00:46:48] Is one of

[00:46:49] Those process. But, you know, we we got through it ended up passing. And again, I’ve been thankful enough to be asked to go back as an examiner for that qualifications. So, yeah, it’s a great exam. It makes you understand dentistry a bit better. I’ve already said, you know, it’s not going to make you amazing clinically, but you will look at the patient as a whole and is learning about their medical problems and understanding how that affects their teeth. Again, I know in practise. So that helps.

[00:47:23] I’ve got to hand it to you, man, because, you know, all these times, I mean, you’ve been out for drinks or dinner or whatever, and I just had you down as the fun guy. You know, he never really mentioned any of his

[00:47:37] Prav

[00:47:38] Prav. Prav always says on this podcast, you talk to people you’ve known for 15 years. You find out a whole lot of stuff about Libya. Yeah, I’ve got I’ve got to hand it to you. Like, not not not defining yourself by all of that.

[00:47:52] I think I

[00:47:54] Yeah. I’ve always liked to work hard and play hard. I think getting those qualifications, it’s nice to look back and think, you know, I have worked hard to get there and anyone can do it. It’s just going to put you put your mind to it and it will make you a better dentist. And like I said, I go into work, I enjoy. I got a great team around us both practises, you know, at Brickfield’s. You know, my dad is still got his nurse. She’s been nursing with my dad since he was 16 years old. She’s now fifty two. Wow. And it’s not a practise where, you know, you think, well, it’s not like an old practise. We’ve modernised it. We’ve got problems. Can we got trios. We were combing CT scan is we’ve recently got a rehab on the practise. And, you know, we’ve always tried to keep up with the latest technology, latest materials. We you know, I’m a great believer and I love the brand of enlightened. I think, you know, I’m not just saying this because you’re on here, but you’ve got something really good going there. And I believe in the brand. So when when we became a regional centre of excellence, I was proud to do that. And, you know, I work in ethics. A lot of people won’t want to if it goes hand in hand with the area that we live in. I’m working, but I like nice stuff. I like also nice things at home and holidays. And I think that having a practise like Brickfield’s and now Square Mile, I’m getting to a point where I’m sort of I’m comfortable. I’m happy with what, you know, how to achieve this.

[00:49:43] Let’s talk about the practise principle as opposed to, you know, the clinician. Yeah. What are you bringing, for instance, to I know you’ve made a big change in Brickfield’s, right? I mean, you’ve been responsible for much of the sort of the marketing side of it. And so tell me tell me, what would you bring to that side? Does that come naturally to do you feel like, you know, being the boss is something you like being?

[00:50:09] I think a lot of people I’m not I’m not great at business. I never have. And I think if I was quite a business, I wouldn’t be a dentist. So it’s in dentistry. I think it’s very hard to be excellent clinically and also an excellent practise owner or principal. I think it’s very hard to do both because both require time. So I decided to go down the clinical because again, I love working with my hands, I love my job and OK, I could go and go the opposite way. And I own twenty practises and I wouldn’t have that of a crown ever again in my life or feeling ever again. But I actually love doing clinical dentistry, so I wanted to get into practise ownership just because the fact that I wanted to always take over my dad’s practise, which is his baby, there’s an element, there’s element of like legacy there. And of course and I really want to take that to the next level. He’s done a a great start. The last sort of three, four years. I’ve been really involved in the business of marketing and looking at the figures and getting a team on board.

[00:51:23] So I’ve done a lot with that. And then we’re square mile. We’ve we’re very good clinically there because you got Sanjay, Nick Lane, Paul and myself, I do think is one of the best clinical teams in London. Yeah. In conditions there, however, the marketing, the branding is not correct there, and that’s something that needs to be sorted out. So and the guys understand that. And that’s why I’m coming on board, because I do think that place has got something special about it. The locations is fantastic. The the the work the Sanjay does is unbelievable. You know, one of the best dentists in the UK and, you know, his work is absolutely sublime. So it’s great to be a part of that. So I’d rather, Sanj, just focus on clinical and I myself and Nick focus on running the business, but tracing at the brand that we want it to be because the location and there was a square in London is brilliant. And the I actually actually

[00:52:31] Quite love the shape of that building as well, you know what I mean? It’s got

[00:52:34] A lot of going

[00:52:36] On. Stage is all glass. Yeah, architecture. The architecture is really nice, but it needs a revamp. So, yeah, that’s what we’re going to do. And I guess you asked me what I’m like as Principal Blunt’s. Are you. Yeah. If you ask the team members what I just cut to the chase and it’s not me being rude, it’s just I haven’t got time to sit there and mollycoddle, you know, you just if that’s the job you get on, you do it. And I want to email it in the day telling me you’ve done it and oh, that

[00:53:13] I’m really surprised. I’m really surprised. You say, Mama, I’m

[00:53:16] In a life. I thought you’d be the

[00:53:18] Touchy feely kind of boss

[00:53:21] Are really kind of

[00:53:23] Laid back and some approaches. But I’m also a little bit cutthroat here. And, you know, if you haven’t done something right and it’s not again, it’s not me trying to be nasty or rude. It’s just I want the best for the team. I want the best for the practise. Nick is great at that. Nick is a great people person. He wants to be friends with everyone. He’s got great personality, you know, so I think made him quite a good combo. So he can be the airy fairy.

[00:53:55] Yeah. And I’ll

[00:53:56] Be right. You’re not cutting the mustard.

[00:53:59] Yeah. I mean, me and Sanjeev, that means that you’ve seen my sancha. We have you know, I want to be everyone’s friend. Yeah. And and I you know, it’s interesting. Yeah. Because it’s quite hard being the other side of that as well. Yeah. Because, you know, I’m like sure to everything, whatever anyone says, I’m like sure. Yeah, of course. You know,

[00:54:20] I’ve got a

[00:54:21] Little, I’ve got a little dream going on that it’s like the best place in the world to work or whatever. And that’s like my number one my my number one thing. Right. And you know, he’s he’s running a business

[00:54:31] And you’re a Yes man.

[00:54:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if it was up to me, Daudier, I would have people pick pick their own holidays. Yeah. It would do whatever you want, you know. Like really. I want that. I want.

[00:54:45] Oh that’s nice. And I think like I said, like with Dave and with Dental Circle as the two characters to bounce off and. Yeah. And that just creates maybe harmony in the business. And that’s what you need.

[00:54:57] Yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting man, because you’ve got this whole clinical side going. Yeah. And you’ve, you were brought up in the world of Dental practises. So I mean by osmosis you would have gotten. That’s a good question. How much did you get by osmosis clinically? And then we’ll move on to business,

[00:55:19] I you know, my V.T. Dino, Sam, Rodia and Parrish, so my VTE Shriner’s, they own quite a few practises, almost like a mini corporate ethics. And it was quite funny because it was my first day as being FDA or VTE in the first practise. I worked after leaving uni. And Sam, like you said, you in the first day he was he was literally like, I mean, I don’t need to be here because he was a dentist.

[00:55:54] He was like, look, I’ve got too many

[00:55:56] Practises to deal with. It’s like you just bring your parents. And one part of me thought, I don’t think that child is supposed to be like that.

[00:56:08] But the other part

[00:56:09] Of me thought, well, actually is right.

[00:56:11] He’s right, you know.

[00:56:13] So if there was ever a clinical problem, I’ll just go home and ask my parents. So, yeah, I did. I learn a lot of clinical scenarios and situations from that. And the business side, my dad’s always been very much about the time we have. You know, we have a great team of Brickfield’s. They’re so loyal. We’ve only only because of me. We’ve recently just employed a couple new members of staff. But I think we have a team of 20 now and most of them are at least seven or eight years have been there. So we’ve got thirty five years for a nurse. We’ve got twenty years for a manager, fifteen years for another manager, ten years for a receptionist. So I think that says a lot about the business. When you have people that say we don’t have a high turnover of staff at all people,

[00:57:11] How many how many chairs is it. How many. Oh, six dentists and specialists.

[00:57:19] Well, we don’t have so we don’t have specialists in theory. We’ve got my dad who’s restorative or so and implants. You got myself who’s restorative and implants. You’ve got Mittel who is no Nakato, my sister who’s perio. And we have three dentists doing Invisalign and general dentists. We’ve got my F.D., which I get every year. We’ve got a therapist, we’ve got five fogginess and we have two trainee Dental nurses and we’ve probably got about another three or four qualified nurses. Three of our nurses are very radiography and is kind of trained. So, yeah, you know, we have we have a really good team.

[00:58:05] I believe that sounds that sounds like a fun Christmas party. Like how many how many people are you in total. I think

[00:58:11] About twenty.

[00:58:13] Yeah. Oh in total. Twenty. Yeah.

[00:58:15] Total twenty or twenty one. Twenty two. So yeah this is good fun and it’s like I say it’s enjoyable. You want to go somewhere. I just enjoy working. You don’t want to go in stressed. You want to go, the nurses are going to look after you and, and stuff is going to get done. So I always say to people spend a lot of time with your nurse, you know, they are your you know, your right hand. And if you train them well and you get them work in the way that you want to and you respect them and you treat them well, it will make your day in practise because it’s a stressful job. And, you know, you want someone, they support you. And that person is going to give you support day in, day out. It’s going to be your nurse.

[00:58:57] Yeah. So listen, Prav isn’t here, but but we always mean Prav always ask everyone about their conigliaro because, you know, we tend to we tend to hide clinical errors in medicine. Generally, when I say hide, it’s not that it’s not an open culture. It’s on the open culture of let’s talk about mistakes, but it’s going to take me through clinical errors, which whichever way you want to look at that, the things you’ve learnt from those clinical areas, clinical errors.

[00:59:29] So I guess there is one, actually.

[00:59:36] I guess there’s two things that that there’s obviously more, but there’s two that probably stick out that I think will help other people. And I also learn from so myself. The first one was a extraction of a lower right for root. And I took the x ray as a new patient emergency and I had time and I say the tooth needs to come out. I’m restorable. Let’s just take it out. So the patient said, OK, that’s not a problem. You know, if you know me, tooth out. So namedrop. And I’m starting to Longsight around the roots, and I slip and I slip into the floor of the mouth and suddenly we get quite a big bleed and I obviously panicked. I must have only been about two years qualified.

[01:00:38] Had you done your surgery job at this point?

[01:00:40] Yeah, I had done neurosurgery at that point for sure.

[01:00:43] Calm your calm. That’s what you’re

[01:00:44] Saying, isn’t it? I was I was I panicked

[01:00:48] In the fact that I’m not protected by the hospital now

[01:00:52] Because I’m in general

[01:00:54] Practise

[01:00:55] And

[01:00:56] The NHS is not going to protect me. So I slipped and I caused quite a deep cut. I just said to the patient, you know, I’m really sorry. This is what happened. I put my hands up and I said, look what I need to do, suture. I just need to stitch it. So I didn’t know what the flow of the mouth and I suture. There are haemostasia, there’s no bleeding. And I saw the patient back for review. She wasn’t very happy, obviously, even though, you know, I thought I handled it quite well. I rectified it, but she wasn’t happy. I understood that because I brought back for a review and she said to me, she said openly admit, you know, I know there was a mistake. You slip the sharp instrument, you cut the floor. My mouth, it was quite sore for a couple of weeks. It seems to have healed now and it’s okay. But just to let you know, I don’t want to come back and see you again because I’ve lost the trust in you. And that’s what she actually said to me. So it was quite that it. But I also see where she’s coming from because I’ve enjoyed her. I’ve enjoyed her and I shouldn’t have done. And I guess the learning point from that is clinically always, always have a finger support. Yeah. If you, Sillett, go into your own hand, not the patient. So it’s I’ve learnt from that.

[01:02:23] I’m not writing an article on how to use Lassiter’s afterwards because I should have had a thing support. I didn’t. And that was the reason why I end up slipping. I dealt with a problem, but the patient decided not to come back. And I guess that helped me a little bit because we take things like that personally and that’s just the way that we are. So I guess that was one thing. And then the second case that comes to mind is a case is still ongoing. And this is a patient that I’ve been treating now for. I would say Caryatid two and a half years, and he came in, it was a three unit fixed fixed bridge that he had previously and he had a recession and one of the abutment teeth and he got to be sensitive. He didn’t like the aesthetics of it because it had an old metal metal metal crown. So I said, look, easy, cut it off. I’ll make you a new one. Zirconia. There won’t be any metal in it. It will look good job done. Two appointments. And before I actually booked him for the treatment, well, I booked him in and then he started calling back. He rang reception. He sent emails and he said, I mean, I don’t think you’ll give me the right information about the treatment. I’m I’m a little bit he basically is questioning what I was advising. And I said to him, look, you just need a new bridge.

[01:03:57] There’s there’s no other way I can put some guy see or composite or Dental in bonding agent over the exposed omentum. But it’s going to be short lasting. It won’t look great. I’ll just take your brush off, make anyone. So he kept emailing and ringing and, you know, you get a bad vibe from a patient. It was one of those. And I was so thankful for that point that I hadn’t started because he was really, really questioning what I was going to do on the 28th. And I just really had a bad vibe. So what I said to him was, look, you obviously don’t trust me. I said that to him, said, you don’t trust me. I was frank with him. And I said, look, I think you should go and see my dad, get a second opinion or go through the practise, get a second opinion. If it’s easier for you to come ACTC, absolutely fine. He’ll give you an unbiased opinion because I don’t need to make three unit bridge. If you want it, I’ll make you happy. I just want to help the patient. So he went to my dad. My dad saw him inspect the teeth and said, yeah, look, I just need a new bridge. It’s the only way to do it. And, you know, because my dad’s got grey hair, he’s lost his hair up here.

[01:05:14] Yeah. He always respects the older person.

[01:05:18] And they say me is like the young dentist. It’s just telling him he needs a three, four thousand pound bridge. How much that he paid. Yeah. And my dad came out of that appointment and he said to me, I mean, I don’t know what you’re saying.

[01:05:30] He’s a lovely guy. Cracklin like the bridge Bob’s your uncle will be done.

[01:05:37] So I said, Oh, Dad, you’ve saved. You obviously told him. You told me he’s the right patient. I just don’t have a good vibe, easterlies. I just need a new bridge. So Buchtmann took the cut of the bridge the 28th Payman some nice time. Prix’s made the bridge, came back for review, didn’t like it. The the shape politely. He didn’t like the fiddling with his tongue effect. This speech, the contact points were too tight. The take a position to leave you the Pontic was not the right shape. The sensitivity was still there. So everything that you could pick up that was wrong with the Dental treatment. That’s what he was telling me. And I gave my honest opinion. If I could improve on it, I will cut it off and he’ll be in next week. I’ll redo it. But I said to him, look, this I believe is good treatment. I you know, I don’t see majorly what else I can change with this because I’m not happy, not happy. So I, I said to him, look, go away for another couple of weeks if you want to remake remake. It came back for another review a couple of weeks later. I don’t like it. Everything’s wrong with it. Sasselov Then the remake it. I said, do you want a copy of your original bridge? Because you had that one for twenty five years. I just improved the proportions of the teeth to make it more aesthetically pleasing. But if you want uneven incisal edges and you just want your old bridge back but renewed, do you want me to copy your old one? Because I’ve got the original model. He said, yeah, actually can you just copy that? So I made a I cut the old bridgework off zirconia bridgework

[01:07:32] And yeah, that was fun.

[01:07:35] And then I got a copy of the originals, got the labs to scan the model and they made for me a new Zucconi operation, exactly the same shape as the model. So this is less of our ninety five percent accurate because there’s always going to be some discrepancy, but it’s ninety five percent. It’s what he had fitted it, not happy emails, phone calls, the shapes wrong. I don’t like the feeling on the back of my tongue. I said to him, this is a copy of your approach. Ninety five percent accurate. I can’t do anything else. Said I’m not happy, so I cut it off again.

[01:08:23] This is the second

[01:08:25] Time I’ve cut it off. I got love made today. My temps made. And I said, right, I’m going to leave you in temps now for three to six months on adjusted temps to the point where you’re happy. And then I’m going to copy that. And then then it has to be what you like. So I got him in Payman. My temps copied the originals shape to adjust the occlusion, checked his speech and saw his alleged length lip line, small line Pontic everything in Payman my shell temps. He went away for three to six months and he came back and said. I’m happy,

[01:09:10] I am happy. My I could not believe it. I was always like, this is crazy.

[01:09:16] I can’t believe you got to a point. So I said, right, all I need to do now is take a trail scan over your 10 feet in your mouth and I’ll send that to the lab. I’ll read tidy up the 28th and the preps, but the majority of the work and will overlay the two still fails to make the new farmers accountable. As per your peer, my terms. Do you consent for me to do that? He said Ammit. I’m happy with the temporaries. All that great comes in for prep day. This must be the fourth time I’ve taken these bridge off right upper left to devitalised this.

[01:09:59] Oh oh. This is just.

[01:10:04] I’m so sad. I’m so sad.

[01:10:06] Right.

[01:10:06] So Uplifter is now non-volatile for verifiers.

[01:10:13] I was left to one of the abutments.

[01:10:16] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So I

[01:10:18] Was uplifter. Non-Volatile one. The Abutments. And it’s a sclavos canal.

[01:10:24] Oh, may

[01:10:27] I have practised dentistry for 10 years. Yeah, but you’re giving me PTSD is coming back as those nightmare situations.

[01:10:35] Ok, so what. Will you do in the end? You do this

[01:10:40] In there in my outfit with the mask on the girl who goes in a proper sweat,

[01:10:47] Ok, because I don’t know how to do anything and I start drilling

[01:10:55] Into the tooth open and dress. I can’t find this canal.

[01:10:59] I cannot find this canal just

[01:11:02] Because my endo guy is not there at this point. I just need to open and dress it to get him out. I couldn’t find the canal.

[01:11:10] I’m so sad.

[01:11:12] So then I you get suspicious and I’ve done so now. And one of the abutment teeth, which is not ideal for a bridge. Right. The two is already a thin roof in itself, so I haven’t got a lot of resistance fracture, whatever. So I make the final bridge from the pier. My temps are fitted it two weeks ago. I’ve already had an email say it’s not right.

[01:11:40] Oh man. Wow. This is now the fourth

[01:11:48] Bridge I’ve made of a two and a half years. He’s been in temporaries for six months of adjusted the speech, the occlusion, the Pontic, the length, the polite to shape the contact points, the embracive spaces. And I’ve scanned the template and he told me he was happy, affected the final one, which I believe is a copy of it. He said it’s not a copy is different, but I physically have got the labs Ovalau overlay. The two are still files and ml the framework and make it exactly the same shape.

[01:12:23] So it seems like when when when a hygienist removes the crap of the back of your teeth for a day, it feels rough. And and then. And then it handles itself. Right. I know he’s he’s just like zooming into that moment. Right.

[01:12:37] I know. I know. This is so I think the learning point from her is

[01:12:43] The instincts of the beginning.

[01:12:45] And don’t listen to your dad. But yeah,

[01:12:51] Go with your gut instinct because if you are not feeling it, don’t start the case because it just really isn’t worth it. I think as dentists, we’ve met a lot of people over the years, patients, colleagues and whatever, and you learn how to you know, you understand very quickly what the character of the patient is like. So I think you have the learning point is just always go with your gut because you got to know me. Right. And I wish I never, ever started that case. Of course, it probably cost me just in lab, just in lab fees. It costs me four or five thousand pounds worth of lab fee. Yeah. And I’m trying to get it right for the patient. I never want an unhappy patient. I guess there’s some dentists out there that are probably given up halfway through. It said there’s no more that I can do for you. But I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried because I really want to make you happy. But you can’t make everyone happy. And that’s the learning point. We you know, you just can’t make everyone happy. So. So, yeah, I’ll have to I don’t know if I’m kind this off again or whether I just need to to move practise. I want I

[01:14:10] Think

[01:14:14] I think as you get as you get older and more experienced, you start to take this sort of thing a bit more in your stride. Right. Because you do because I haven’t been exposed to this that sort of pain for such a long time. You going through that really, really hurt the hell out of me, man. I have never going to be a dentist again. I it because I’m not as good as you either. Because know what I have that I’d have to like, send them to ALIL and pay all of his specialist fees as well.

[01:14:41] Yeah. Yeah. I think I

[01:14:43] Have become more you know, if a patient does try to get a little bit shirty or doesn’t you know, um, you know, I’m not going to take crap, you know, I’m not going to be bullied. And again, I think they say that I look at my F.D. and I look at the way that some of the patients talk to her. And I’m shocked that but I think they see a little bit of weakness or lack of confidence there and patients will pick up on that. I spent a lot of time with the FDA talking about communicating with a patient. And, you know, you want to win them over. You want that patient to go out and sing the praises, of course. So if you can really convey. That’s difficult. I’m a big believer of that, that

[01:15:25] Have become your biggest fan, isn’t it?

[01:15:28] Because a lot of time it’s just nerves and not actually a horrible person. It’s just the situation clinically. They don’t like the smell, the scared of the noises. They’re anxious about the injection and back. But I think

[01:15:42] That changes people. We take it in stride because, you know, we’re in there every day. But my dad’s about to go for a spinal operation. Right. And, you know, it’s it’s a worry. It’s a problem. We’re all stressed about it. You know, he’s in his 80s that goes into his three spines and stick the bits together and all that. And, you know, you’re stressed, you know, and we know people are stressed at the dentist. So you’re right. No, I’m sure someone is. But most people most patients aren’t being intentionally short or anything like that. But I bet your mum’s your mum and dad are ideal for talking to you about these sort of problems. Right. You know, they see themselves.

[01:16:28] Yeah, my mum has got a bit of a reputation,

[01:16:36] So,

[01:16:36] Yeah, she’s lovely. I’ve learnt a lot from them, but I’ve learnt a lot from the courses.

[01:16:42] And what are your plans going forward? What do you think?

[01:16:46] You think the next big project is Square Mile? Yes. You know, Brickfield’s is great where a place where we can, you know, we’re comfortable and where, you know, we’re doing well there and enjoy the dentistry square mile with the next project challenge. Yeah, the challenge. I love the challenge and I see something special there. So I think we can turn that into a great practise. And again, clinically, it’s a great, great team. So I think if we got the the issue there in London is there’s a finite amount people that can afford that type of dentistry, because if it gets the nitty gritty, you know, and you’re talking about charging five hundred pounds from anybody composite, if a patient needs just five fillings, you can imagine how expensive that is for them.

[01:17:37] There’s a lot of people with who’ve got the money for that in London. Yeah.

[01:17:41] But because of competition also.

[01:17:43] There are. There is. But, you know, you don’t need that many patients. I would I wouldn’t worry yourself too much about that, you know, but if you can provide the you know, I was going to say, you know, you’re a fan of high end stuff like your your your Novikov boy.

[01:18:00] You know,

[01:18:03] You should you know, I was talking Robbie, Robbie Hughes was saying, I want to be the Louis Vuitton of teeth, but you should be the Novikov.

[01:18:11] Ok, I think I’ve calmed down a bit since the baby. When I do, I went I went to I went

[01:18:20] To Novikoff with Nick Saxbe. Do you know this story, though? I went to Nick’s. I went to Novakovic. Nick said he and the wives. And I was I was just getting to know Nick. We didn’t really you know, we were we were friends. But I think the first time she’d been out together for like a meal with the couples. And this is a point where I’d actually been to Novikoff. I was I got another call once a week

[01:18:47] Where everybody knows, you know, and I

[01:18:50] Got to know the manager and the waiters. And that was me. Acting is the big bollocks.

[01:18:58] I well,

[01:18:58] It’s not a call with Nick and his wife. And Matty was there. And we sat down and the waiter came over and he goes, I mean, nice to see you again. We have the usual. And Nick says he’s like, who is this guy?

[01:19:13] So I said, Yeah, we’ll have the usual.

[01:19:17] And he goes, I mean, I’ve actually you know what? I’ve got something special for you today. So he must have mug written on my forehead because

[01:19:27] He said, I’ve got a

[01:19:28] Lobster it and

[01:19:30] It will sue you

[01:19:31] For down to a tape. And I said, let’s have the lobster do half of

[01:19:36] It and grilled half of it tempura.

[01:19:39] So he brings this lobster in and we’re all looking at this thing is ridiculous, right? Sort of a bus and he puts it on the table and we’re enjoying the meal. We have a few drinks and then we get the bill at the end.

[01:19:55] Oh, my. The lobster

[01:19:59] Was four hundred and thirty pounds

[01:20:01] Over. So I thought you were going to save all that, but

[01:20:04] I lost it.

[01:20:08] So I had a bill later in Dubai where, you know, I was having so much fun. The guy would say, I’ve got a real special tequila one. There was smoky and I was like, yeah, I’ve got yourself know, we had like, you know. Five, six shots and the sounds turned around to me when it’s going to be a bit expensive, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, of course, buy it. It’s going to be expensive. How much do you reckon it’s going to be? And I was like, there was five of us. I said, it’s going to be like this is going to be like fifteen hundred. And then the the just before the bill came, the manager came. Anyway he went, this restaurant is always completely, fully booked, but we always hold some tables back for VIP. But he when he said p, I suddenly twigged

[01:20:58] What’s going to happen here.

[01:21:01] Suffice to say I was wrong, that it was much more expensive than that. Each one each one of those tequilas was one hundred pounds. Each shot. Yeah. So when we were going to have one yourself, each shot was like six hundred, he was just doing it. So we totally got that.

[01:21:18] So the next night you went to Leaders, but

[01:21:22] I was surprised you haven’t got more storeyed Novikov stories that because Boycott’s is like that isn’t it?

[01:21:27] You know, I mean, I think there’s a few stories that you can’t really tell on here, but

[01:21:32] I think

[01:21:34] We do like to have a good time. And you’re right. I do I do like to do other nice things in life, whether it be a nice holiday. I mean, the best holiday we went on. And I’m I’m so lucky that we got to do is actually my honeymoon. And we went on safari to Masai Mara and that was, you know, that was just such a great experience. And we had a lovely hotel and. Yeah.

[01:21:59] What did you guys meet?

[01:22:02] So me and Marty, it’s random, I met her in Tiger Tiger in London.

[01:22:10] What, you pulled her classy? Well, I was with my boys domestiques shout out a few words outside the car. And I think she looks to me like, who’s this creep? But a source for that.

[01:22:27] And then actually, we were both studying dentistry, but we didn’t know. Amazing. Oh, yeah. You know, it started from there. And I knew after a while that she was the one. So I proposed in Dubai and we got married in Florence a couple of years ago. And yeah, we just had our first baby three months ago. So. So how does that feel? Yeah, she’s been a great support to me. And, you know, again, I would be I wouldn’t be where I am without her either.

[01:22:57] How does it feel to be at that?

[01:22:59] I think every that size, this size is amazing,

[01:23:03] It is is it is.

[01:23:09] It’s a strange one because I miss him and I miss my son because I’m a work, I wish I could be at home and I love coming home and spending time with him. Is it just such a great feeling? And I said to you before that when I before I had this conversation, when I was in the labour room, I was in bed so, so emotional. And I’ve got such thick skin. And, you know, I’ve I haven’t had a rough upbringing, you know, that I went to private school, but I’ve experienced quite a few things with. So I’m probably wrong, you know, some not so nice people when I was younger, hanging out with the wrong crowd. So but, you know, even though I’ve got this maybe tough exterior, I think, you know, having a child is just a love that you can never describe. It’s just completely different. That’s the only way I can describe it and can describe it. And the I think that I’m for saying that it is the truth.

[01:24:11] No, no, there is I mean, it’s it’s, you know, biochemically that way anyway. But but also, I think, you know, it makes you a better person being at that. I mean, I think yours is a bit too young for that so far.

[01:24:25] I mean. Yeah, I mean, the new dad mode.

[01:24:28] Yeah. But it does make you feel better, but there’s just no

[01:24:31] Getting away screaming. I’m going to my little shit.

[01:24:35] Well, you know, the thing is, you end up having to be a better person, a role model, you know, than you know. You can be going to self-destruct. Right. But but when you have a kid watching you do that, that sort of tempts you. Yeah. It’s been lovely to have you, but I’m good

[01:24:53] And I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. I’m going to

[01:24:56] Finish it with Prav perhaps final questions. Even though Prav can’t be with us today, you’re you’re a bit too young, but you’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your loved ones around you. Or three pieces of advice that you’d like to give them.

[01:25:16] Can you order me a KFC

[01:25:22] Knife,

[01:25:23] Three piece of advice to my loved ones, I would say be honest. You know, and just treat others with, as usual things, treat others with respect. I think that’s so important that, you know, you you were trying to help others. People do. So I hope I can say this about myself. It’s only because a lot of people say about me, but people sound quite generous. I do love giving to people. So I think though I don’t know why, I just like doing it. So I think I would always say give to others where you can. I think that’s very important in lots of different aspects, whether it be education or just general life values and tips or financially, whatever it may be. But I think if you can give something to someone and always look out to help others, I think that’s a good trait to have. And the third bit of advice, other than be honest and give to others, I think now definitely be humble. I’ve been humbled after I said to you before we said it, I agree to the beginning. I was a little shit. And I’ve had Facebook messages about, you know, my my life on Instagram and things that I am I guess it seems to be Sharafi.

[01:26:46] I’ve had a lot like that.

[01:26:48] Tollman Yeah. Yeah. But I think I just had messages like that. So I think again, that takes you down a few pegs. There is no real need to to be like that. I have sort of matured over the years, so yeah, I can also be humble.

[01:27:05] The next one of Prav questions is you’ve got there very happy questions. You you’ve got you’ve got 30 days left. You’ve got your health.

[01:27:18] I guess

[01:27:22] One word. Yeah, that was

[01:27:28] That was the case, you

[01:27:29] You have

[01:27:31] Elaborated, but the one word answer was excellent. So it’s been really, really lovely. But I really I’ve really enjoyed it. And we need to meet up and have it delivered.

[01:27:46] Yeah. And thanks my it’s been I think what you’re doing is great. It’s good that we can chat about this stuff. I think hopefully there’s a few things in there that would help other people. Again, I’m always looking to inspire the new generation I see with the FDA come through. They can have a tough time this year because of covid. Yeah, I really have a lack of experience clinically and again communicating with patients. So they’re going to be a little bit lost. But I think, again, what you’re doing, hopefully with interviews like this and, you know, thanks again for having me on, but I just want to give a few tips to to other people. Hopefully they will find their own way. You don’t have to copy me. You don’t have to copy Chris. So you don’t have to copy. If you don’t have the copy, anyone, you find your own way of how you want to do it. And I think doors will open for you about it.

[01:28:38] Those are your three mentors, Dave, you and Chris. So what a lovely combination back. But it was lovely to have you. Lovely. Lovely to have you. Thank you so much for doing this.

[01:28:52] All right. Thanks. Bye. All the best

[01:28:55] Days is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole

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[00:00:00] You know, for any patient, the psychology are really, really important, but it’s all about trying to gauge if you’re going through the process of making a set of five appointments or whatever it is you end up doing. It’s all about sort of drip feeding your thoughts throughout it, saying it’s very much know people would say it’s if you tell them at the end it’s a mistake, if you tell them at the start it’s 10 cents or whatever. You know, if you say after the fact, then you’re making excuses.

[00:00:29] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki,

[00:00:47] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Rupert Monkhouse onto the podcast, may be known to most of us as dentistry, but on Instagram I come across Rupert, who’s managed to make the unsexy, sexy. Good to have you back

[00:01:05] To just having me on

[00:01:06] The list. We’ll get to how you got so heavily, heavily into removable prosthetics. But let’s start from the beginning. What’s your background story? Where did you grow up? Why did you become a dentist? What kind of kid were you?

[00:01:19] Yeah, I grew up in in the Midlands, in Worcester. And yeah, a lot of what I was doing it sort of early on school days was I was doing a lot of swimming at the time, so I was very heavily involved in that and think dentistry. I got involved sort of 15, 16, a GCSE, I think it was. And I was just at my but my dentist and he was doing fish sealants another and I found it interesting. What’s this? What’s that. And the week for work experience was coming up in the next half term or whatever it was, wasn’t I hadn’t got anything lined up yet. So I said, can I come with you? And that was it. And I thought, this is quite cool and went from there. So it’s sort of solons. It really is not something I’ve been thinking on for ages. And it was just sort of these last two years and I was quite science Yanyuwa. So that had limited myself with subjects. But yeah, it just sort of came from that.

[00:02:11] Did you say swimming?

[00:02:13] Yeah, yeah. I was a competitive summersaults doing like 16 hours a week in the pool. Oh my God. I was in the gym and that kind of stuff until third year of being asked to stop training and then carried on coaching for the last two years at uni. So I didn’t really have much time to do to do anything else

[00:02:29] That, you know, we’ve had a few people on here who were to have athletes of one one description or another. I mean, I’m thinking of Robbie Hughes was a big martial artist and a few. Do you find that that sort of athlete’s mindset, are you applying that to dentistry in any way, you know, that sort of beating yourself and going up against your, you know, being better today than you were yesterday and the discipline and the he said obsession. Do you think it does relate somehow?

[00:03:01] Yeah, I’m definitely quite a perfectionist, but I think I was about that like just personality anyway. But I think definitely of the discipline was is like a really big thing. So, you know, the three days a week I was getting up at quarter five to get in the pool at half past six. So I caught to get in the fourth quarter to six and then go straight to school and that kind of stuff. So you had to balance your work really well and you have to be disciplined with getting stuff done. And like our final was like in fifth year I was coaching rather than actually swimming at the time. But I was in Sheffield for two weeks, the two weeks of finals and I was in Sheffield. Well, I literally had my summer in the morning, went down Saturday exam and came back the same day. And that was there for another week afterwards. And I had to really balance getting all the revision done. And but it gives you that ability to do it because you had to do it. So I think it definitely is a part of that discipline side of it.

[00:03:58] So what level were you swimming at and teaching? Coaching.

[00:04:02] So as a as a swimmer, I went to the Commonwealth Trials 2014, so I was like top twenty. That came seventeenth. And then coaching I coached to National Tewson is where National Medals, British British championship medals under fifteen on the seventeen. Well so pretty, pretty high level.

[00:04:24] And so it’s a way past just the question of swimming. Right. Was everything else, the nutrition side and all, all of that sort of jazz.

[00:04:34] Yeah, definitely. Like sort of the, it was a lot of self-taught stuff, I mean and researching and there’s loads of articles and forums and things and going into that and then the coaching, I’ve I’ve done my qualifications, so I’m not qualified to be a like a head coach if I wanted to and things like that. But that was more just from my own experience of of being an athlete. Yeah. That’s on the of the backup career. If I want day or.

[00:05:01] Commentator Oh yeah.

[00:05:02] Oh that’s great. I’ll be off to Tokyo. The idea.

[00:05:08] So tell me about the Dental school. Where did you qualify.

[00:05:12] I was it kings qualified four years ago out twenty. Seventeen. So that was, that was good. So then I was still doing some training stuff the first couple of years and then it just got too busy after that. So then just sort of but still doing the coaching but not, not getting in the pool and then at King’s up in the up and Guys Tower really enjoyed a bit of a change of pace from little old town of Worcester. So it’s a great place to be in. Such a big school, you meet so many different people then, and we take them, and that’s where a lot of the stuff really started for me because I like children. So they’re very, very passionate. CHUTER you know, those kind of teachers that are sort of dragging you on and who was there in his name is Andre Topolice. He’s back out in Cyprus now, but he was running the Matchbox prosthodontics guys as well. So it was a bit of that. Still, he’s just a fantastic teacher and it really got him enthused. And and he sort of just drove down, sort of let you dive into it. And that’s that’s where it all sort of came from, that really.

[00:06:14] So, I mean, you know, I talk to a lot of people and, you know, it is a standard advice that people give to become really good generalist first and then look at, you know, specialising in. And when I say specialising, I don’t even necessarily mean the specialist, you know, name of being a specialist. But, you know, dialling it into something very specific for me. Some of the most successful people I’ve met in dentistry specialised really early. You know, they started knowing what they wanted to do really, really early on. What do you say to that? I mean, I know you’ve got you’ve got a very good general knowledge of dentistry. And just by listening to your life sessions, you can say that you’re definitely a Dental geek of sorts.

[00:07:00] Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:02] But it sounds like you’re saying you’re telling me in your third year of dental school you decided you were going to get dentures

[00:07:10] And that it was definitely in third year. That’s where that started. Yeah, but then in fourth year, I had a really good perio tutor. And I like, you know, I’m sort of one of those I like. I’ll dive into it and then get really, really drawn into it. So then I was like 40. I loved. Yeah. And then in fifth year it was just like just the good life. Really good General Collins tutors and just really enjoyed sort of GDP and it’s very much just just like that. But then the more it moved on, it’s sort of that the pro side of it, I did enjoy more and more. But again, it was just sort of fluky. So I went up to to Yorkshire for my birthday. I went up to hope and they had

[00:07:51] A lot of full. Full. Yeah. Right.

[00:07:55] Yeah. Very, very, very high needs. Very high needs. We have an in-house lab so the technicians on site and you can pop in and plant stuff and chat through things. But we also had the station contract like East Riding of Yorkshire, so they would come in for an assessment and then the next month it was like the first Monday of the month, I think it was. And then the next month they’d come in. And if they hadn’t been made immediate and by their GDP, they got sent to me to make seven dentures. So it meant that erm I, FDR just made tons and tons and tons and just got the ball cap rolling. And then my first practise outside of FDR down the road in Fulham, again, just like really, really high needs and just it just carried on like that and then started the work where I am now with my prosthodontics Dental and I’ve just been as just sort of spiralled like that. It’s just sort of all fallen to guide me down that path.

[00:08:49] There was a practise in how it wasn’t the one year. It wasn’t this gigantic one five something five five,

[00:08:59] Four, three. Yeah it well yeah it

[00:09:02] Was really amazing. Amazing what a place. Just I mean I don’t know what it was like now but I went there maybe twelve years ago or something.

[00:09:15] Are they both houses since then.

[00:09:17] I mean they owned every single house on the block.

[00:09:20] Right. Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:22] And is it still the same. Was that the Doctor Green Bridge.

[00:09:26] So it’s his sons run it now.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:09:31] But what a crazy place that is. I mean they’ve literally bought every single house on the on the block

[00:09:37] And yeah I think it’s five terraced houses. Might be six now. It’s a crazy place but it was an awesome place to do today and they’re so, so supportive and you could just do whatever you not whatever you want to. But, you know, there’s a one way if you want to be a good GDP in the NHS, doing loads of stuff will teach you that. If you want to focus on doing really nice composite work, go for it. If you want to do loads of whatever it is, is like will help you to do it because there were so many dentists there. I think it’s sort of sixteen, seventeen dentists you’d find even if it wasn’t a training, you could find someone to mentor you and help you with something

[00:10:17] What a crazy cause is. And what were the Christmas parties like? I mean, how many how many people, how, how many employees were there? Just like giant. It was like a Dental hospital.

[00:10:26] Yeah. It must, it must be like fifty, forty fifty surely

[00:10:31] More than

[00:10:33] A massive, massive. I think we had about eight receptionists and nine receptionists or something. Well it probably was over. If they actually but it’s it was an awesome, awesome place and super lucky to have as my foundation because I thought my got it got Leeds or Yorkshire won or whatever it was. And I was, but I wouldn’t change it for the world. I want to I wanted to stay in London. I was hoping to carry on my coaching in South London and things like that. And I was actually quite sort of gutted, really. I sort of got but went back and it was sort of similar to what’s a similar size, similar sort of demographic and things. But then the practise was just completely lucked out. I wouldn’t change it at all.

[00:11:13] And then you went straight from there to a practise in full and you say,

[00:11:16] Yeah, so the big one on the North End Road. And it’s just until I read that the big blue one year 30th is quite it was quite sort of similar similar sort of patient base, similar sort of size as well, because that one’s fourteen surgeries, VSS, isn’t it. Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s huge. There’s two new ones too. And then there’s Bassman as well and there’s an upstairs surgeries too.

[00:11:44] So we should we should, we should let everyone know that. I mean you live five minutes away from the once one seats away from each other. Yeah.

[00:11:53] Not too

[00:11:53] Far. And yet we’re doing this overservice. We should go for that beer right after this.

[00:11:59] You look looking good if you want to follow suit.

[00:12:06] Ok, explain it to me, man, because I’ve got a interestingly similar early story to you as far as prosthetics goes. Yeah, because I did a house job. It was called it was called restorative dentistry, but a good third of it was prosthetics. And and there was a I study in Cardiff. And Cardiff was one of these high needs, sort of awful towns as well. And I had a teacher I had a consultant who I loved as well in Cardiff. You used to just really just make it interesting. And then my job was with a guy called Nick Mahindra. Have you come across him now? So he does this thing now where he raises increases vertical dimension by like ridiculous amounts. Now, this doesn’t seem like such a big thing to do, but back then they used to tell us, you know, like three millimetres at most you can add. And he was like doing thirty, but he was doing it. Indentures was doing in the benches and changing faces. So I watched him. He would even set up the teeth himself, you know, and I remember him getting, you know, talking about sort of the mindset of the the Dental patient and all that. And and then I remember thinking as a young guy, I felt like I just didn’t want to just have older patients, you know? And he was in Harley Street and I used to go over there and everything. And it was that was exciting. And then we looked at bleaching and. But what about you? I mean, do you not think that was the story there? I mean, OK, you like it, right?

[00:13:40] But why not? Why that and not long bleach and blonde. Yeah. Yeah. I like like you said, the changes you can make, I really enjoy that. And the more the more I’ve gotten into it now and the more I’m working with my awesome technician, just all these incredible things, you know, the more I think it’s a blank canvas and you can get a bit arty with a really and you can make massive, massive difference and then you can do it with other bits as well. But I like the planning side of it. I like the big picture and really getting sort of thinking things through. And as you say, like changing, changing over there and opening them up or putting them back in the right position. And almost at the start of side of it, I do sort of always will. Maybe I can do some story. I don’t I don’t mind the Orlando, you know, I could do a bit of a start to move it, but I think I just like the scope that you have with it. And not just I still do all general dentistry, but I just enjoy this and I, I share it only that’s the only stuff I share that I still enjoy all sides of that. I’m not that bothered about cosmetic stuff, but I think it’s more that in the practise that I’m in now, we’ve got the ended on this. We’ve got the periodontist, we’ve got the guy who loves all of his invasion bonds which go, if you’re going to come here, you may as well go and see the guy is going to do it better. And I have no qualms in doing that because I get I get really stressed about doing the bonding and things like that. I just I just feel more comfortable doing doing the pro side of it

[00:15:15] And is is is getting a high needs area. I mean, how are you doing so much for forwork. Are you getting referred it

[00:15:22] So the it’s all private where I am now and it’s mainly referrals or it’s it’s a lot of self referrals. So I’m working under essentially under my boss, Nick Fay. He goes across the dentist and most of the cases. I’ve been sharing on Instagram from literally since we came back from lockdown so that literally within the last eight, nine months and it’s things like when we came back, we’ve been running sort of adverts for teeth in a day and things like that. And if they that comes through and they say maybe it’s not quite what I had in mind or budget or whatever they say, or you can have a sense of self complaints and then they come my way. So that’s why I’m doing a lot of cases. Actually, it came from it came from that. And the girls on the phone know now that if someone calls asking about dentures, they get some strange as a new patient rather than one of the other generalists.

[00:16:18] But are you not going to get involved with implant retained and

[00:16:22] See, I do some I do the actual I’m starting to move the prosthodontics side of it. So the Fed, if they are going to have a property in danger. Yeah. Then if they currently don’t have implants, they get sent to me to make the complaints and then they have them for a couple of months and then they review again with Nick. And then Nick uses that and says, right, well, this is the procedures we’re happy with. I need to put the implants here, here, here and here in the right position does it and then retrofits them onto that. So that’s how we started to do it now. And we’re looking at these can do the training with with all of us training on more of the restorative side of it as well to look at doing that. And I do want to pursue it more. I’m looking at applying to sort of empty and then in the next few years, hopefully, and then go down that route. Yeah, yeah. But it’s just finding the finding the time to even be a part time for years and the money as well.

[00:17:18] That’s a big commitment. It’s a big,

[00:17:20] Massive commitment there. And there is definitely the group. I think I want to go down, but I’m still sort of figuring out how do I want to do a Start-Up, 95 percent certain that that’s the way I’m going to go.

[00:17:32] So give us give us some clues. I mean, look, there are some people going to be listening to this thinking this is a lost art. And, you know, it’s like something something they’re not going to be doing much. I mean, I’m thinking of first, my wife works in a city practise with within an insurance company that I’m sure she’s not doing much removeable at all like four years. But there are clearly other people who are doing quite a lot of prosthetics. So for you, what are what are some of the key points that most dentists don’t know and should know or could know easily? Most. Most of us are missing out.

[00:18:10] The main thing is, is on the impressions side of things. I think it’s everyone falls into really bad habits really, really quickly. And it’s not very straight. And don’t try. And the mouth just put the alginate in there and go for it. Rather than adapting your primary, try and using different materials and build in that impression and things like that. That’s a big thing that we’ve tried. You mentioned the lives and stuff we’ve been doing and we’ve been doing a few about above that kind of thing. I think it’s something that people just don’t you get taught it, but then it’s just so easy to fall into those bad habits when you come when you come out and go into a mixed practise practise and you’ve got 50 minutes to do a set of primary impressions. And it’s, you know, go, go, go and get it sorted. But, yeah, I think that’s that’s part of it. But you say like it’s a diet, but there’s still aspects of it, even if you’re not doing it that are important. So if you’re doing important work and you’re doing a full Arche, it’s still the basics of how to make a complete Danja OBD aesthetics or if you’re doing cosmetic stuff as well, it’s still small design is still using those principles. So even if you’re not going to touch the Dental special tree over again, the principles of it are still really, really valuable. Even if you’re doing Edmondo, looking at your ratios and things like that, it’s important to appreciate that.

[00:19:30] You’re right. I mean, back back in my day, the only thing we would have been taught about small design, would it be in prosthetics? But what about when you qualified? Was there anything else?

[00:19:42] No, it’s I think it

[00:19:43] Was Dental course. Does it move over?

[00:19:45] It doesn’t change. It doesn’t have I I was just I met a couple of friends the other night and we were chatting about how we’re all doing these tabletop onlies and things and bondies stuff that we weren’t we weren’t all from conventional teaching in fourth year, fixed prosthodontics or whatever it was. As you do that, you go and do these courses or you read these biomimetic articles or whatever. And if again, we’re being told this thing, I only graduated four years ago from, you know, this great place in London. Why are we is it hasn’t it hasn’t moved that much. And we didn’t I think it’s one of those things that you do a day of Implanon, a day on impulse. You do maybe a day or one lecture on this is what this is or it’s you know, someone comes in and does an after after uni thing for the Dental society on small design or something like that. But it’s still not part of it. I think that’s not what the universities are for making Vitrano, although they’re not making private dentists or anything like that. But it’s still is principles of that. And you’ve still got to break it down into those basic building blocks and then you can use it. And it’s sort of that’s that’s why I think with the prosthodontics as well, there’s not is seen as a bit of a dark art, but there are still there it is. But it’s still sort of there are the basic principles. And then you just extrapolate on those and you can work out more difficult things.

[00:21:14] Yeah, I know. I know you do this thing, the Impression Club. Right. But is there digital? Can you take scans of potential disasters or not? So I don’t know.

[00:21:24] So some people think, yeah, so I’ve done I did a case where we used a digital file to make a set of special trays simply because we were it was a case that was being planned for some implants and naked, already done the work up and all this. And he’s got a digital wax up and things like that. And then he the patient had some medical issues and couldn’t go through with it at the time, but needed some teeth. So so as I I’ve got space tomorrow and my lab on Dental place printed off these prints off the files and made me a tray. And I picked it up that evening and we did the impressions the next day. But it’s still got its I don’t think the potential of

[00:22:04] It’s the second we wouldn’t be able to do the.

[00:22:07] Yeah, it’s because I’m not going to get aggressive. Yeah. You don’t, you don’t know what the. Yeah. You don’t want the tissues are but also actually getting back to the main things that you want. Yeah. You can’t, you can’t get a functional sulcus, you can’t really get right back and get the tuberose these really nice or retracting the cheeks out of the way because the scan doesn’t do that. So this tray that I had was really, really short. Actually spend longer adapting it with silicone or whatever, that I may as well just toss a stock three hours and probably even got the same impression, but twice as fast. So I think for certain things, like maybe making a little bounded saddle chrome denture, but the digital, you might be added to it, but still always be taking a conventional secondary because it’s just I don’t think it’s there yet.

[00:22:54] And as far as materials, what are your favourite materials for full and for partial

[00:23:01] Silicon, silicon, for anything that’s adventurous and the primary impression and then alginate on top and then for the is for Parshall’s is alginate and retentionist is silicon putty like body image and body depending on the size of the underlying tissue so that you’ve got more balance. If the pressure Seper Lightbody where you’ve got loose tissue and medium body, where you’ve got firmer tissue, and Putsy, where you’ve got really, really strong tissue so that across the board you’ve got a nice, nice balance with silicon silicon all the way for the attention of the don’t touch, don’t touch the constitutional level.

[00:23:40] The issue is that just you or is that is that the way it’s a.m..

[00:23:46] I had a while ago, actually, since I sent the case to two and 200 to that changed of third. And it was like, what are you doing is greenstick? And Zawia, like I taught you for years. And I was I’m just trying this. I’m just trying this. The silicon stuff based out of the guy in Japan, Dr. Arby. So that’s sort of based on reading around what he’s doing there. Yeah, they’ve all got that place and certain things. It’s that I just prefer the handling of the silicon’s and it just works reliably for me. I know that it works well as I try and do something else and then worry that I’m not going to get the result that I want.

[00:24:23] And then as far as registration, are you doing something different to what we were all talked

[00:24:29] About in this RIM’s nothing too fancy. Haven’t really mentioned the Gothic arch tracing it. It’s I need I need to probably just to see if it’s going to make I haven’t felt the need to, but I probably haven’t had enough cases where I probably needed to to get it done. So I had my my one to one on the line with Ellenburg. And so that was good. Yeah. So I know I need to do it now for this one.

[00:24:55] The really the really beautiful thing about the work that you’re putting in is for me, OK, you’ve got you’ve got the, the small rotations and the teeth and so on, but the gingiva the thing. So I guess that’s the technician. Right. Are you, have you got input in that. Well, how does that work? I mean, how do you make something so life. I even noticed you had the attached bit was darker than the which is when you think about it. Why haven’t we always done that? But how does that work? Do you have to sell that to the patient that it’s going to be? Or do you discuss it with the patient? How does that work?

[00:25:29] Yes, and even even the rotations and things, you know, we sort of start from the get go and even that the consultation. I’ve obviously got a bunch of photos of different cases now. And I sort of say, you know, you can have this, you can have this. I was initially doing like a two tiered sort of system. But generally now where with where I’m at now, I’m just I’m just doing the fancy ones, the sort of this is what we do. And if you want if you don’t want to have that, you can have the guns more simple if you want to. But it’s all it’s all the same sort of thing. But yeah. You sure. In a few cases and see what they like. Some people don’t don’t want a really fancy gun work and it’s fine. Or we get them to bring in pictures and stuff for the angles of the teeth and things like that. So that’s all sort of the patient feeds that in that the gun work is all with photos. So we’ve got actually a ginger shade died. So my my technician, Ricardo, he works exclusively with either cloud product. So I’ve got an overclassified guy out of all these different shades of paint and he’s got some more purples and yellowy tins and things like that. So it’s about six six thirteen different colours and exactly the same as you would be taking shade guys photos for teeth, the lips and take the three photos of the three different tabs. So then he can sort of see the idea of what the gums look like anyway. And then he’s got all the different colours and he actually processes that is normal and then he’s adding those on. That’s actually a composite of different coloured composites that he’s actually adding over the top and then glazes the whole thing. And this is actually additional layers that he’s adding onto it rather than coming out of the flask in one piece like that.

[00:27:11] And what’s what’s been the reaction of of young dentists to, you know, putting these beautiful pictures on Instagram? And it’s the last place I mean, you know, these platforms sort of, you know, developed in the. But if three years ago you told me the going to be a guy who’s going to be taking pictures of complete dentures and making them. Exciting and sexy on black with with reflections, I believe that was supposedly people’s reaction. I mean I mean, you must have inspired a bunch of people.

[00:27:44] I I’d like to think I think I get a lot of a lot of really nice feedback. I do see a few people doing a few pictures and it’s quite, quite similar. It’s cool. It’s no one’s no one’s original. Someone was doing the same kind of things as well that I haven’t seen nothing. And it’s all about the photos of soldiers. What Menasche pictures on his phone. When did that cause? Two years ago. And I thought, well, I’m going to do it for what I want to do that I had really, really nice feedback. And I think more people, just obviously people were doing Dental cases. But I’m seeing more maybe I’m just following more people, but I’m definitely seeing more people who are doing on the page sort of composite work and actually posting the odd Dental case, which is almost that people weren’t thinking, well, let’s not share the Dental cases, but yeah. Yeah, definitely. And more more of it coming up. Which is which is cool. Yeah.

[00:28:37] I mean, the thing is, we were all trained in that much more than we were trained in composites. So it kind of it kind of takes you back to that whole whole bit of Dental story. But at the same time, it’s interesting, you know, that that is still the case. I really didn’t think that thought. I thought by now the Dental course would be much more sort of digital planning, none of that. Right. Scanning or scanning both

[00:29:04] Of your calls. So you knew it existed. You knew it existed. But we didn’t we didn’t have a scanner on the postgrads to the postcard. Obviously, they have scanners and things like that because they have to do all that side of it, that we didn’t have anything outside that that maybe it’s changed in the last four or five years, that it’s still not not a

[00:29:26] True even even in the last four or five years, a lot’s changed in scanning in terms of the penetration market penetration of it. Yeah. What else do you get up to, man outside of work? What’s your biggest interest?

[00:29:41] Well, I was doing a bit of coaching still for the swimming stuff that the covid sort of killed that off. And I don’t do normal photography, not adventures that again, covid sort of curtailed that a bit because it was more when I would travel. I’d try and go away sort of two or three times a year and do photography there. Obviously, living and living in London, you can still go and do some some nice photography. So I spend spend most of my time doing doing that and just sports in general. Watch a bit of a bit of cricket. Maybe I might get roped into a Sunday game next week. I think the shorts some players, I’m going to go and turn the arm over, but yeah, photos, not adventures is usually what I’m doing. And I found that I’m just doing more and more of the work, work, photography, so I need to bring it back the other way, I think.

[00:30:26] So were you a photographer before you were Dental photographer?

[00:30:32] Yeah. So I’ve been doing sort of photography as a sort of serious hobby for about five years. Mostly I like stuff about being in London at uni and going around it then travels and saw landscape photography and cityscape photography and things like that. So I knew I knew my way around a camera before I went on. Yeah, that’s one of these goals and stuff. Yeah. So it’s then that that’s the beauty of our course is that it’s still had so much, so much to offer because you have the full range of people on that course and still somebody within 100 which we which to hold on sort of thing that you can catch up on. But the BBC, that is the whole black backdrop things of that is so simple to do once you know how to do it. But it just until you know how to do it is it’s crazy, but says I still enjoy it. And that’s why I think partly I do all these do all these Instagram photos, because it’s just it makes me enjoy the work that I’m doing. And I enjoy the sight of him making a nice picture, whether it’s over a mountain range somewhere or of an impression, I just enjoy the process of actually producing it, producing an image.

[00:31:48] And when you when you went on your travels, what were the most beautiful places that you saw and photographed?

[00:31:55] We did Machu Picchu a couple of years ago, and we did all the mountains and lakes and the salt flats in Bolivia and the same trip, which is pretty awesome. And just all of all of Vietnam, just the most beautiful place that we tried to get around a fair bit in the last few years that we did in the last 18 months, not doing anything. So, yes, it means that work since taking over, isn’t it? That has been the same for you. Just suddenly realised that I’ve been back for 12 months straight and not really taking a break. I think it’s quite

[00:32:27] Interesting at the moment. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, it’s not the same for me because I’m not clinical. Right. But but my wife is so. So I get the I get the feedback and I mean, it’s weird that it’s now kind of normal, right. That you what you’re having to do in the clinic and everyone’s just accepted that it is what it is. And I don’t know, I find she’s much more tired now when she’s come back from a day of work than than she used to be before all the precautions and at the PPE and all that. But at the same time, you know, she’s been really lucky to have almost a single dentist who’s not happy. Obviously, there’s the associate story. Some associates have been treated badly and there’s the technician story. Quite a lot of technicians. The NHS was definitely in issues. You’ve got a lot of technicians follow you, right?

[00:33:22] Yeah. Yeah. I’d say probably 30, 40 percent of them are actually technicians,

[00:33:27] Whether because of the just because of the work.

[00:33:31] I think some people think I’m a technician as well. Generally, I think I think they do think I’m a technician. Yeah. I think they just enjoy seeing their work or what they do highlighted in the way that it isn’t normally highlighted, I guess. And and my guys, Ricardo, is very, very, very good at what he does. So it’s it’s almost that. And because all my stuff is exclusive, he has you know, it’s almost it’s it’s a fanpage for him almost. So the technicians will want to follow that. Yes. But I think as well, they like a lot of the feedback we get from the technicians is how I talk about what I do and how I go about it and the relationship I have with Ricardo. And I think they don’t always feel that they get that level of communication or whatever it is back. So I think they quite that’s a lot of the feedback I get as well, is that it’s a bit different maybe than what they get from from their clinicians

[00:34:30] When you look back at your your short career. But for your your sort of back story and how it’s all panned out, there’s an element of discipline from the sports. There’s an element of teaching from the sports. Yeah. Do you think that’s the way you’re going to go? You’re going to be a teacher? I feel like, you know, it’s one of those things anyone could or could not be a teacher, but some people really thrive in it.

[00:34:59] Yeah, I just I definitely enjoy I think I’d love to go back to the guys and do a Friday afternoon or something, and I definitely would want to go and do some decent teaching a bit down the line. And yeah, I enjoy the sort of that’s where the live sessions started out, was partly saying, well, let’s go through a few cases. Men, men retire to go through a few cases, partly to stop or to give me something to quickly send when I received the same didn’t like all the time. But how to do something like his his a thirty minute video and then it just sort of shifted a little bit because I had good feedback and people saying Do you want to do one. But that was partly the intention of it as well, was to do a bit of sort of almost indirect teaching that just sort of share the passion, share the knowledge as I guess. But no, definitely, definitely enjoy the teaching side of it is and still be quite happy to retire as a swimming coach at some point as well. Really? Yeah. That love still go back to that, although in twenty five years or something go back and do that. He’s ever coached by us. He was going round with a with a walking stick. I think he coached until the day that they all over the great fun,

[00:36:11] The essence of it man. I mean the few swimming lessons I’ve had. I was surprised, amazed at the the difference. Keeping your fingers together, you know what I mean? Like the small changes you can make in Sydney and the huge difference that makes. What’s the essence of it? Could you tell? Could you tell? Someone’s going to be amazing when you first start teaching them. Can you turn them into something amazing? How important is. And how important is physiology

[00:36:39] Is that you can definitely you can definitely see talent, you can do anything. This is the same thing that you said about like dentists is all that you’ve seen on the courses and things that you can see the talent, but you’ve got a bunch of sort of junior some, as you can see, which ones are and whether it’s a physical talent. You know, they’re naturally a foot and a half taller than everyone else or hyper mobile, hyper flexible. That was me. I got my knees and got me shoulders. The 30 percent more mobile than they should be helpful. Yeah, you get extra range of movement and things like that. And and so you get you get that side that you can see. It’s still hard work. I still I wasn’t the most talented athlete. I worked really hard. I worked smart. I was talented, more talented than than some, but definitely. And that’s why I never got that that extra I got the top the top 20 or whatever it was, you know, is never going to make the make the team that I had friends and did junior level far more far more talented people.

[00:37:43] How does that how does that feel when you’ve been doing that amount of training and then you realise you’re not going to make it? And I mean, it must be soul destroying in a way, too, right?

[00:37:53] I mean, I, I never I never thought I would, you know, it was never I loved the sport. I loved doing it. I was really happy to get to get to the championships, get to the trial. Then that was that was enough. That was basically I got to that as some of that event. I said, yeah, I’ll do I’m quite happy here because I could carry on for the next two years at uni and not and not get any better and not make that final two percent to do it. And that’s what you do when you say you’re doing something like the fine margins as it was, is it sounds bonkers when I said it’s sort of two percent, three percent. And that’s that’s what it is. You know, if I was ninety eight. Ninety seven percent of the way, that’s all, isn’t it, then it was never I just love the sport and love doing it and it’s that personal thing again. If you can’t use racing against yourself, if you don’t know you’re up against other people, but you can sort of always push yourself internally. And that was the day I stopped when I knew that I’d done everything I could. I’ve given it a given everything. And that’s fine, because I think it’d be worth it if I felt like I’d, you know, not push myself as hard or done something.

[00:39:03] You did your best and you feel good that.

[00:39:04] Yeah, because I knew that I’d reached the absolute limit I could I could reach, which is higher than I ever expected. So, yeah, I know. I’ve no sort of regrets with that.

[00:39:14] At your stage in the game, are you thinking of. You know, I’m not I’m not saying you’re going to open a practise tomorrow, but are you thinking of opening a practise one day? And what do you what do you think

[00:39:25] From that of the. I don’t know. I don’t know. I think initially a while ago I thought about it. And I think it’s more that you think I would be really cool except accepted practise in like high. But for mates that we just have a laugh and and we’ll all do our little things that we enjoy doing. But I think it’d be a long way away. It’d be something would be quite enjoyable. But obviously the the other side of it, there’s a lot of the business side and the obviously the stresses that will go with that and highlights it massively with, you know, with Kobe must be such a tough time for the principles, especially that Woodbridge we made a big expansion and stuff and put two, three, three new surgeries in the year before and things like that. And there must have been very tough on on the bosses and stress that people are seeing all around the country that people are in those kind of concerns. It’s not quite quite like turning up and do my thing and then going to do something else.

[00:40:19] Yeah, it’s a nice time. I remember very well the bit between qualifying and doing something serious, like starting a business is a beautiful thing. And as much as it’s it’s impressive when people qualified, open and practise quickly missing out on that piece, it’s almost it’s almost like that bit. I don’t know, you’re going out with a girl, but you’re not married to her sort of feeling. Well, it’s a lovely time that some people miss out on you. I found in my day, in my time that that was a real defining time for me where you’re still so energetic about your new career and and you’d be amazed that the moves you’re making now, you will end up being really amazing, like building blocks of the final things you become. But when I say starting practise, do you share with me that when I was at your stage, I keep on thinking, wow, you know, I can do so much better than this. By the way, I’m not saying Knicks practise, and that’s a great practise. Right. But as as as a young as a young guy, you know, you have ideas this share some ideas with us.

[00:41:28] But I think I always I always joke with it because because. Because I’m living in. I’m living in and I’m travelling out. All that, you know, they always mention and in sort of huddles means like, oh yeah, let’s hope ambitions at some point to open a second practise and like, you know, Richman’s quite nice and

[00:41:49] I could help you in that one, maybe

[00:41:52] As I always have a bit of a joke with them about that. But at this stage I’m at the moment, I would never dream of running a place. I just think, yeah, I just

[00:42:04] I think I’d be quite good at it, though, dude, because a lot of a lot of things about the teaching thing is about communicating and and in the end, running a practise is all about that and communicating your vision. Yeah. To to others.

[00:42:19] Yeah, I think it would be the kind of thing I’d enjoy doing, but I feel like this at this stage now, you know, it’s I like if I’ve got anything, I can go to any of the other senior guys and get some advice on something I’ll feel if I was the boss, I need to be giving all those answers that I just don’t feel that I have. You know, we’re still while we’re all we’re all learning, always Dental practises and that we’re all still learning in that path. But and I think as well, I’ve got a lot of sort of loyalty to Nick and Sarah because of the way that I’ve ended up there. It’s very much sort of they took a took a chance on me and I’m more than I’m over the moon to be working in a place like that full time at the stage of my career that I am.

[00:43:02] Is that your first first private job? Did did.

[00:43:05] Yeah. Yeah. So I started I started the two months after finishing up on Saturdays because I met Sarah during F day whilst on a course in Birmingham. I won tickets for it. It was in Birmingham. I was in how. We’ve got to take two tickets. You can apply for them as the deanery and I was I’ll go home for the weekend afterwards. I’ll be all right. I won them and then end up chatting to this lady and did. And then a year later I started and some subsidies. And then a year later I started shadowing Nick on a Wednesday morning. And then it just sort of when my mother so it just all sort of fell into place that way. And I just yeah, I’m so happy to be where I am. I don’t think the change

[00:43:51] Of pace from NHS to private. Tell me about how that felt the first day, because that’s a great day, scary day to day lives.

[00:44:00] I mean, the actually doing it switching over full time was that was the bigger change rather than when I started just doing some Sacerdote is sort of like because you try and get in the mode of even when you’re doing your and it just sat there trying to book in more of these sort of private work and things like that. So when I first was just doing the alternating exercise, it didn’t feel like that that big a step when it was suddenly all the time just in private, that definitely felt like a big a big change because it was, um, sort of coming off the the rush of doing like thirty patients and then. Yeah. Going the next day of doing sort of a Sunday. I’m always seeing a 10, 12 patients or whatever it is. And that was where it felt really different. But it’s enjoyable as well because I said you can do the work you want to do. That’s the beauty of what I said is and if I want to do an end, I’ll do it. If not, then the doctors can do it. That’s the the beauty of it. You can just focus on taking time and doing the things that you like

[00:45:05] As far as your reputation builds and your reputation is building quite beautifully in the profession for someone at your stage. But as your reputation builds in the community for being the denture guy. So it’s funny that one thing you’ll find maybe you’ve already found is you’ll get people coming to you with more psychological problem than a clinical patient. Maybe tell me if this has happened to you already where you feel like based on all the parameters that you you’re in control of, everything looks pretty good. You’re getting you’re getting suction everywhere and everything’s really stable. Everything’s great, looks good. And yet the patient’s unhappy. And what tends to happen is it’s the better you get, the more you attract that crowd of people who never you know, the is not in the mouth. It’s it’s it’s different. Have you come across it? It’s you definitely.

[00:46:05] Will I look forward to this? I’m not I can’t I wouldn’t have had anything, anything like that. Yeah. But I think the the psychology of it is for any patient is massive. For any patient. The psychology is really, really important. But it’s all about trying to gauge if you’re going through the process of making a set of Dental five appointments or whatever it is you end up doing. It’s all about sort of drip feeding your thoughts throughout it. So it’s it’s very nice. Yeah. People would say it’s if you tell them at the end it’s a mistake, if you tell them at the start it’s ten seconds or whatever. You know, if you say after the fact then you’re making excuses. So you’ve got to try and break down and work out. But it’s just sometimes with those kind of patients say that it’s a classic like five or the other way. And it’s like the classic one that turns up with six, six punches in a bag. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes actually I think just sit there and just have a chat and work out rather than doing the same thing for the seventh time and just sort of um because you do have it anyway. You sort of, you say, oh it’s just the patient. I just a bit so let’s just get on with it and get them out of the chair.

[00:47:16] And I don’t mean to be dismissive of. Because a lot of Dental patients haven’t been served very well at all. Yeah, and and so I’m not saying that at all, but having hung with neck, my neck doing includes doing you know, he was a very high end dentures, but very high end anything. If you talk to the to the top guys, they’ll tell you this. When you build a reputation, that’s what happens. You tend to attract that patient sometimes. I remember, you know, I told you I had a mentor who was into process. And he said when a patient used to say they’re too tight, you should get angry about that. That used to really get to who he would. He would turn around and he’d say, no problem, I’m going to put them on the Dental stretcher and then we’d walk out together and would have an espresso. We’ve come back and it’s the end of the great, you know,

[00:48:15] The bentgrass technique, putting it just putting it on the side behind and doing something and making it sound like,

[00:48:21] You know about that.

[00:48:24] Is that running the running the straight handpiece behind and just sort of just pretending it is tapping on something else like that, you know, sitting up. The psychology is massive. The psychology is massive.

[00:48:35] Yeah. Are you also involved with the TMJ sort of issues or

[00:48:41] Do the odd. I do the odd splinter, the odd little bit that nothing nothing that much. It’s certainly something I want to look into more

[00:48:48] As an element of crossover,

[00:48:51] Where you can look at it from those occlusal areas and you know, and working into it like that. I think that’s that’s probably the next course. But it is jazzes. Yeah, of course. And then down the road for me and reading so much by that, that that’s that’s the kind of thing there is so many people have, I assume. And it’s something that’s so under so under undertreated. Yeah. I’ve had a couple of ones wrote me these little little chest side sort of kig to sort of see if it works. I’ve done a few of those and I’ve worked really nicely now and I found that really interesting. I thought, wow, this works and there’s got to be more, more to this than I’ll just fall down that rabbit hole as well.

[00:49:35] So and I saw something on your Instagram that was like a windowed Sackets special tray was that

[00:49:45] The fibrous, red, flabby ridges, so that we’ve got the lower, lower teeth usually going up against an upper comp.. Yeah. Turns the insides of a pillar and all that kind of area more fibrous and so on. Yeah. So if you do a uniform impression, you’re going to compress that to make one area more than the other. And then when you put the acrylic in, it’s going to just squeeze into that and then it slips down at the back. You lose the sale and falls out. So you do your window impression, do exactly the same and complete that you’ve you’ve asked for a hole in the tray over the area. So then the material flows through the press they right in and then take it out. You cut out the window, press it back in again, and then just lightly syringe the light body over the top. So then it’s only the weight of the silicon’s pressing there. And then the technician relieves a little bit foil so that actually when they’re fully loading it in, it doesn’t actually touch. It’s almost like the the fibrous issues hanging inside. So then there is uniform support. It doesn’t go anywhere.

[00:50:50] You’ve got you’ve got you’ve got compression everywhere else, but not there.

[00:50:54] Yeah, absolutely. So then when when it is loaded, everything else is compressed and that there is still not being contacted at all

[00:51:01] And then you don’t. Is that is that a similar story for those Tauri.

[00:51:05] Three, if you want to get away from those and then release them? Because they tend to be very painful because they’re so the Geneva so thin over those edges, relieve those and sometimes in the impressionable in the trail, get them to put a little relieving area not necessary. Do it like a window, but just allow the material to flow out a little bit so there’s not as much there.

[00:51:28] It’s amazing coming back to

[00:51:32] Rewind the clock back. Yeah, yeah,

[00:51:33] Yeah it is for me. Yes it is. But it is, it’s, it’s funny man. I think it holds a special place for us all. You know, your education to doesn’t it takes you back to the how was it coming from a small town like Worcester. Worcester was three was the worst I know was the worst. To the big city.

[00:52:02] Yeah, is it I mean, it was it’s everything’s different when you go to it anyway. I mean, I’ve got family in London as well, so we would we would do pretty well. More West at my aunt’s actually up the road in Fulham as well. So I know the side a bit more. But it was it was exciting. It’s always different, isn’t it? I think going to as I said, the big cities is a bit of a change. But I’ve stuck around for another eight years, so there must have been. What do you

[00:52:29] Think’s going to happen? You think you’re going to end up going back eventually to Worcester?

[00:52:34] Yeah, and I don’t think I was working for a little bit in Worcester early last year before I had to said she was able to go in full time and ready, which is the things that it was quite nice was then I was doing even more travelling and I was bouncing, bouncing sort of up and down and staying with family and things like that. So it was quite nice because I tend to I’m one of those people I to go home for like six months at a time. So it’s quite nice to go back, go back to of every week. But I enjoy it, I enjoy it down here. I think I would mind drifting a little bit further out, maybe a little bit less of a commute. But at the moment. Yeah, but it’s a good it’s good that today, as

[00:53:15] You know, I’m kind of new. I’m kind of new in Fulham. I’m kind of new for them. So I’m just finding my way, really. I still I still feel much more at home in North London. My office is there and I was brought up, brought up there. So every time I go back that way, I’m like, this is home. But it is nice. Yeah. I mean, the Champions League was what they call that they.

[00:53:39] Did you hear all that last night. It was pretty is pretty rowdy. Yeah. We were walking back after the game and it was obviously a lot closer to the stadium than you are, but it was round last night.

[00:53:51] I could hear it from here. There you must have heard it all.

[00:53:53] Yeah. Yeah, it was it was great. We had loads of sirens as well, which is.

[00:53:57] Yeah. Yeah I saw that. I saw that. It reminded me of my days in A&E

[00:54:03] And the flashbacks.

[00:54:06] Yeah. Yeah. Because I did this house job that was half restorative half surgery. And I remember in Cardiff. Yeah. When it was a lovely day during the day you have this bittersweet feeling of tonight. It’s going to be tough. Yeah, it’s

[00:54:22] Going to be a go.

[00:54:24] Yeah. And when it was a rugby game would depend on who was playing. But if it was Wales, England, there was going to be trouble that night. And it’s funny because during the day it was a wonderful day and the night would be, you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever done any like man, is it a proper, tough, tough evening, you know, stitching up faces and, you know, undoing the good work of the bouncers. Of course.

[00:54:58] I mean, I haven’t done that side of it. I mean, my my my girlfriend. I’m I’m a flatmate here. They’re both they both on their visas and backpacks and things like that. Yeah. So I’ve heard all the stories. Not for me, not for that.

[00:55:12] So you think that you your girlfriend, you said was doing some teaching in F.T. said. Right.

[00:55:19] Yeah. Teaching is looking do some also. So doing all that side of it.

[00:55:25] Did you guys meet in the Dental school.

[00:55:28] Third year. They’re paired up partners.

[00:55:33] We had the I met my wife in Dental school to actually put the thing I found with you know, some people think having having a person, the partner who’s in the profession is difficult because, you know, you’re constantly talking about that. And I liked it. I liked it a lot. You know, I like it a lot in so much as, you know, you can you can you can talk to someone about it.

[00:55:56] Yeah, they can. And you can share that passion with it as well. It’s sometimes there are times the other other you want to think about it for that. But I think it works, it works well to sort of share that. And they talked about it if you want to. I think it would be tough to have a bad day or something. And not everyone has a profession that is everyone’s bad days in every profession is different as well. So definitely helpful. And she’s also probably the reason why we move not too far, because she’s a north west London Iranian as well. So she really took off is to get it down to Fulham.

[00:56:30] So it’s like, well, all right, buddy. Well, perhaps not here to ask his final questions.

[00:56:41] I was going to avoid them.

[00:56:43] Okay. You are a bit too young. You’re too young. You are a bit too young for it. But I didn’t ask you about your biggest clinical mistakes. Are these people going to have to ask you the. It’s your last day on the planet and you’ve got your loved ones around you. One of the three pieces of advice you can leave them with.

[00:57:05] Things I’ve been thinking about this all day, and I still don’t know

[00:57:09] If it’s your final is your final swimming lesson,

[00:57:16] I think I think based on sort of my sort of work pathway so far, I think the first thing. But I take opportunities and take your chances and sort of trust. Trust. Well, it is this is a swimming thing, I would say, without trust the process. And I believe that you’ve got the right idea of what you’re doing and you’re going to do it and you’re doing the right thing and just take chances, take the opportunities that arise because. Yeah, because chances are it’ll work out so. And if it if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. But I think just trust that, you know what you’re doing, you know where you want to go, and that this is going to be the right thing for it. And I guess it’s sort of the same kind of thing, but especially if you’re in this situation that you last. I think I just do things because the things I experience things or whatever it is, because what you I think you’ll regret things. You don’t do so much more than things that you do that take yeah. Take say yes to things. Go and travel and learn, learn new things and learn to meet different people and do things like that. And then I’ll steal it. Paraphrase a Savage Garden song and don’t don’t let the sun set on an argument then get a bit angry because life’s too short. I just get on it and get it done. Well that day.

[00:58:33] That is good advice. Although Prav discussions are three parts, I wonder if you wonder whether his next question is kind of it’s kind of similar, but it’s a legacy question. Rupert Monkhouse was. How would you like to be remembered

[00:58:54] As the guy that my Dental is set to get in there? I think I’d want to be remembered. I’d like to think I’m that person that you could call in data. Dependable. Yeah. Yeah. That if you needed them, that would be. That would be a. And also, my dentist actually

[00:59:17] Gets security as final question, I’ve got a feeling I know where it will be. Got 30 days. Yeah. To do whatever you want to do.

[00:59:30] Hojjati. A lot of them said trouble, yeah, that is the thing is, I mean, it’s difficult for me because my mom hates travelling. She won’t fly. She likes flying. So I wouldn’t get to spend over 30 days away. I’d have to spend some time. Some time here

[00:59:46] Would be put on a train

[00:59:48] Together with me on the other side,

[00:59:51] Hyperloop. By the time it comes to your last 30 days, there will be other relatives. Maybe. Let’s imagine your mom can come a long way.

[01:00:00] But we’ve we’ve been having this thing. We’re trying we’re trying to do the the wonders of the world before we turn 30. And we’re doing all right. I was three. I was three down.

[01:00:08] But what are the wonders of the world?

[01:00:12] Great Wall of China. Oh, Machu Picchu, Colosseum. I see you on one side. And that’s the end in Christ the Redeemer. Yeah, Christ the Redeemer. In Brazil, we forget mortar fire. That was the plan. So I think that they’re pretty cool. Thirty days to get around the world and just go and say, just go and see the awesome things. Because if he is going to China and you go on the Great Wall and you say the pretty clever and some amazing stuff happens and yeah, go there, go and take off the Seven Wonders, do it and one dig around the world. And they’re dragging them kicking and screaming when their guys.

[01:00:54] It’s been lovely having you

[01:00:55] Really enjoyed it. Thanks. Thanks for having me on.

[01:01:00] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders multistorey.

[01:01:10] Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because

[01:01:28] I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:01:40] And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] I remember my friends kind of going out and some of the getting married and having babies, and I’m still there in the library studying, having my breakfast, lunch and dinner in the library, which wasn’t fun, said it is really intense, especially when you get to the final years. You really got to give it your all. But there is an end point. So I think you got to you got to be ready for it. It’s not for everyone, but it’s something that you’ve thought about and you want to do and you want to do one thing every single day of your life, then it is probably right for you.

[00:00:34] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:00:51] Gives me great pleasure to welcome we know what you from our perio onto the show, Reena’s being burst on the scene in terms of a young specialist really pushing the cause of perio. Everywhere you look, it seems like arena and really nice to see that you’ve just started your referral practise as well. Hi, it’s nice to have you. Usually we start with where were you born? How did you grow up? When was the first time you thought of becoming a dentist?

[00:01:22] Again, thank you so much for having me on the show. It’s my pleasure. Let’s say where do I start? So I was born and brought up in South London, so NICTA couldn’t stay here. And I grew up with me and my family and I have one brother who’s two years older than me. And yeah, I mean, I pretty much to be honest, I lived in that house till I got married. So very sad. I didn’t live out here in university. I literally stayed at home for what must have been like, gosh, over twenty eight to nine years. So see, I grew up in South London, I went to school nearby and then I went to ground school nearby, as well as the girls school, which I really enjoyed. And then yeah, then I pretty much stayed at home. I went to university, started at the London or I did my undergraduate Dental training. And then funnily enough I did my VTE again just down the road like two minutes walk from my house to my own dentist, which is interesting. And then I did my perio training guys. So always been in London, which is being fun, and now I’m living in central London. So still in London,

[00:02:35] Just growing up in that single house, single household during that time and going to uni. What was that like in terms of where you were you coming home, back home every day? Did you stay out with mates? What was what was the whole setup? Because, you know, my experience of uni was was was living away. And my daughter is applying at the moment. Right. And the protective side of us as parents says, go to Manchester and say hello. But the growing up side says, you know, go as far as you can. And she’s going to London.

[00:03:09] Yeah. Know, interestingly enough, I absolutely loved it because my parents let me have my independence. They weren’t the kind of Indian and some I know have something to go reputation of trying to keep you stuck in your house and locked in the house. But my parents really did let me grow up while still living at home. And later on in my university, as my brother then moved out Old Street. So I used to say as flat a lot as well, which was fun. So I think for me it was great because especially during the final years and especially actually when I was doing my perio specialist training, it was really intense. So coming home to a lovely, nice meal that Mummy’s made, it was actually really helpful to get through those years that at the same time they didn’t restrict me. I could meet my friends whenever I wanted to have a social life. So it was a nice balance. I think it’s for me it worked pretty well.

[00:04:02] First of both worlds, I remember I used to come home every eight weeks and it’s a bit full of shopping. And then on the way back, it was it was some home cooked food. So I guess you have the best of both worlds that being able to come home and get some decent growth down you and and have the flexibility as well.

[00:04:20] Yeah, I spoke to someone in New Year. Yeah. And they told me you’d absolutely dominated that. Yeah, I top it everything. Yeah. Were you the kid in school as well, you know.

[00:04:36] Yeah. I was always a bit of a geek. I just really I just really enjoy studying. And I think the way I’ve been grown up is so my dad always saying to me, just give it your hundred percent, whatever you do. So I’m doing something. I just max. And that’s it to the point where, you know, that that’s my key focus. So when I was at university, especially undergraduate years, my key focus and I’ve always wanted to be a Dental since I was like seven or eight and finally got there, I was like, wow, I need to give it my all and I want it to be the best. And I wanted to give it one hundred percent and then whatever happened. So I did the front line during lectures. We used to make fun of me. I wasn’t though as a geek, I was I was still socialised. Everyone had a really nice group of friends, got on well with with the whole year. So it wasn’t as though I was like a just a recluse, like hanging around by myself. It wasn’t like that. But I did. I was very book orientated. I just wanted to to do well. I was the best as I could.

[00:05:36] I think, you know, my dad had that conversation with me too, but it didn’t quite work the same way, so. I mean, is that right now, I mean, are you, like, highly like a perfectionist?

[00:05:51] Yeah, I think I try to be a perfectionist because I’ve learnt that trying to make everything perfect, you sometimes don’t make progress. You just need to be good enough to actually achieve your own thing, trying to do every tiny detail. Sometimes that extra fine detail doesn’t make a difference. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn’t. So I wouldn’t I would say if I call myself a perfectionist, I think I’d I’d still have the drive that I did five, 10 years ago. I think that hasn’t changed. I don’t think that ever will. I think it’s kind of built in me. So, yeah, whatever I do, I’m trying to do the best I possibly can. And if there’s challenges, then I have the kind of grit to kind of get through it, essentially.

[00:06:29] Why did you decide to specialise in an area, what point during your career did you think this is what I really want to do?

[00:06:37] Yeah, I mean, in terms of dentistry, I wouldn’t have wanted to for a long, long time. That dentist I mentioned who was down the road is actually probably out of Vassar. And it was very inspiring who was my own dentist. He took out my premolars for my over and everything else that she really inspired by him. And that’s essentially led to me doing dentistry. So that was always in the specialising actually didn’t come to a lot later. Actually, during my final year of undergraduate, I thought, OK, there’s quite a lot to do here. I wonder if I want to pick some one of these things and do really, really well. And funnily enough, I was dead set on prosthetics. So for my final case, I did it for my three, have one of my tutors filtered a really nice guy who was like, I’m going to get you right into the prostate. And then you’re joining us next year as soon as you can. And I was dead set on it. And then it was only until the final month or two before graduating. I discovered perio as such, because I have to say undergraduate years, Aperio are not the most exciting. And I don’t think it’s when I started, at least it wasn’t very well represented. And then I realised, oh, this sounds quite good. And I think then after that year I started exploring it and I did my essay. Yeah, I did all surgery, I did restorative. So I started to like the surgical aspects of it. So I thought maybe I was a good speciality. Then I shadowed quite a few Purdum’s and I thought, wow, this is actually something I might really enjoy.

[00:08:06] And so thought, yeah, I realised I needed to specialise because I wanted to do one thing just really, really well. But Perio came onto the scene quite later on, actually, when I realised I like the surgical side of things, but also with the impact you can have on private treatment, it’s quite significant. You can literally change someone’s life. You can change the quality of life. You can make people not just look good, but feel good as well. And for me, that is so important. And so, yeah, I looked into that and delved in further and I actually applied for training quite early on. Some people were saying to me, oh, you need more experience. You were only fresh out going straight and you can’t even do a feeling of people saying that. And I was thinking actually works for me. If I’m only going to be doing I don’t want to do. And if I want to do, I don’t want to do a restoration anymore. That’s all I want to do. So I thought actually, let’s jump into it and go for it. And with these decisions as well, you can’t just you’ve got to think about the rest of your life. And for me, I wanted to get married, have a family and all these kind of things. And I wanted to get that studying because I knew how hard it was going to be. I want to get that done beforehand. So it kind of worked out really well.

[00:09:13] Did you consider going on and, you know, becoming a researcher or were you at practise?

[00:09:21] Yeah, it did cross my mind when I did my master’s in specialist training. And you’ll find we usually have to do like a Masters project research project. And it did cross my mind. I did enjoy it. But I think I’ve always had my heart set on practise and applying what you learn practically rather than doing studies. And I do like studies and research, but for me it’s more practical hands on aspect of things. So, yeah, I mean, I’m still in the hospital. I still work one day a week, which is quite nice. So there’s little academic element there and it’s great to interact with other staff in a hospital environment, but I don’t think I could do that more than once a week.

[00:10:01] What does what does the training entail in terms of the specialist training? You qualify and then you graduate as a dentist and then you do the specialist training, I’m assuming full time for over three years.

[00:10:16] Yes, there’s different ways you can go in. And three main schools that offer the specialist training and but Kings’ is the only one when you do it part time. So I did a four year part time training programme. You can do a three full time training programme. And the reason why she was part time was, well, quite honestly, I wouldn’t be able to afford to pay that amount without working. So just to give you it is quite interesting. When people are jumping to specialist training, they forget about all the nitty gritty and one of the biggest things is finance. And when you’re doing specialist training programme, you’re looking at I mean, when I did it probably going up, when I did it, I was paying around eleven, twelve thousand pounds a year. And for me to not then work would be very difficult for me to fill that course. So I did a part time training programme, firstly because I wanted to of the UN so I could pay the course. But also it was quite nice because you can then applying what you’re learning then in practise. So there’s part time and then there’s full time to part time as well is only a king’s. But it also allows you to and it sounds geeky, but you have an extra year, so an extra year of learning. I think we really made a difference. So financially as well. I think you have to think about loss of income.

[00:11:26] So even though I was working part time, the. Working five days a week, so it all adds up. I think I find a lot of young dentists graduating and there’s something in specialist training without considering that decision in detail. And one of the things to think about is finance. But, yeah, you did three years, four years. And then in terms of what it entails, when I did it, I was in the university hospital environment three days a week. And at the same time I was working process to one to two days a week. Plus you gotta do your studying and everything else. It’s intense. It does take a lot of personal sacrifice. I mean, I remember my friends kind of going out and some of the getting married, having babies. And I’m still there in the library studying, having my breakfast, lunch and dinner in the library, which wasn’t fun. So it is really intense, especially when you get to the final years. You really got to give it your all. But there is an end point. So I think you got to be going to be ready for it. It’s not for everyone. But if you are if it’s something that you’ve thought about and you want to do and you want to do one thing every single day of your life, then it is probably right for you

[00:12:28] Just in terms of the intensity of your work in, let’s say, a couple of days a week and then and then we need to do any training as well. Would you then go home and say study in the evening after having works and practise? How are we talking for me? Undergraduate was a lot easier, a lot more difficult than postgrad, just the way things panned out for me. But just talk to me about the hours and the time and the dedication you devote to put in during that four year time period.

[00:12:59] Yeah, I mean, I was waking up at like five, six a.m. The latest on the days I was going to university was great in seeing patients. You don’t really have much free time, so you’re spending your own free time writing up cases, revising, going to the library. Postgraduate education was very much your own initiative. So you’ve be given reading lists rather than undergraduate where you’re given the paper and maybe the paper summarise for yours post graduate. You got to get out there and actually do that reading and research for yourself. So all your spare time is spent on that. If you want to do it well, all your spare time is spent on that. So therefore you’re going to work on the work days of coming home and you’re carrying on with the work. So the days were like literally from five a.m. to probably midnight every day for me. I’m not I’m not I wouldn’t see myself as a vice president, but I work hard. I mean, my brother, for example, he just read something once and it’s one of those annoying people who think they maybe spend with me. I have to spend that time. So it was draining. I think I couldn’t have done it. If I had to do one more year of that, I think I would have broken. But it is just about enough to get me through. To be honest

[00:14:12] With the Reverend, low points during that time where you’d been through Dental school, you’ve got your degree in there. And then during that four year period where, you know, five till midnight most days, there are very low points where you sort of thought to yourself, you know, this is too much mature.

[00:14:28] I actually was okay. I think the secret was having supportive people around me. So I had a good buddy on the course and that we revised together. We support each other and the home. I had my family network and my friends and I had my to be husband. So I think having my mentors, I had a really good support system. I think without that I hundred percent would struggle. So and that support system, like, for example, my like we were supposed to get married and we had to postpone the whole thing because of this, because of how intense it was. Actually, I was like, if we’re getting married now, we’re going to get divorced six months later. So let’s hold on. Let him understand that you’re going through this. You need to support people understanding the situation. How many hours you’re putting in and putting it into perspective really helps. I think I was OK. I think it’s very easy to go now and worry and break during that process. But I think having a good supportive network really helped me, which goes for anything. I think even now and going forward, you always need people around you to support you. I think it’s so important and surround yourself with the right people, I think has surrounded by very positive people. People in my year with very positive, they weren’t saying, oh, my God, how are we going to get through this? They were very much like, let’s do this. So it’s great.

[00:15:44] Is it also quite difficult to get in? I mean, how many applicants per play, so how does that work?

[00:15:50] It is competitive. I think it’s getting more and more competitive. I think they have a good few hundred applicants and each year, on average, about six people. So. So it really is quite competitive. So there’s a written application. You can have your interviews and you’ve really got to show you, show them why you are interested in power and what’s the evidence for that? What have you done to show that you’re interested in the speciality? What can you bring to the speciality as well? So it is competitive. It’s not impossible that something someone wants to do it, go for it and find out. We don’t just just find out what they’re looking for and build yourself up to that. I think.

[00:16:26] So give was a sense once you did your dissertation, I guess it some sort of five or something, and then they said, all right, you’ve passed. And, you know, whether whether we call that like, you know, just pure for that feeling that we all get when you pass that exam. Yeah. And then you’re the most junior periodontist in the country. What’s the journey? What were you aware of? What has to happen next for you? Were you that person who’d already started thinking about where you were going to go next and what did you do next?

[00:17:00] If, funnily enough, I was that young, I was the youngest this when I qualified. So it was it was scary. I think the thing is, all you think about usually is getting through the course and not the day after is a bit like Dental. So you just wanting to graduate and then like, oh, hold on a minute, where am I? This is the real world. One of my my mentors, he kind of helped me and guided me through that process to the point where actually during my final months at my specialist training programme, I had already developed an index which was basically hiring a room and setting up my own clinic, basically to the point where I was literally on my final month. I was starting to see patients in my clinic, which was pretty scary, but really fun. And then I started to feel like, wow, I’m actually so yeah, that was how I started

[00:17:47] With the referrals coming from I mean, had you already started going to work?

[00:17:51] And what happened was when I was 20, when I graduated from dental school, I set up before the days, but blogging was actually a thing. I set up a website, which was my name, Dotcom, and I used to love going to still developing Dental lectures, courses, all these kind of things I used to really enjoy summarising.

[00:18:12] I remember the really good.

[00:18:14] He has

[00:18:15] Notes

[00:18:16] That say, yeah, so I used to summarise these things into just I find that and those around me, we just wanted simple summaries of things. So I used to post them about any of them. So that’s why I created the website. And from there I used to post videos, links to all sorts of things, and I started to build a network of people interested in my stuff. And then actually what happened was when I graduated, they also were following my journey and said, oh, your parents, now can we refer to you? So naturally, I really created a small referral network who have you send patients to me. So it kind of worked out really well. And thereafter I did some outreach and I went to visit people and I started building relationships with people. And the key thing for me was when someone sent me a patient, I wanted to just make sure that patient was one hundred percent happy or thousand percent happy with the care that they would go back to the Dental and say, wow, I thought she was really good. So the referral actually then sends more patients. So and from there it grew. I mean, I started one day a week carving out this room on Wimpole Street and then through the year, often to a full time connect the office even busier.

[00:19:21] So I’ve only ever referred to one periodontist in my life, Strand, because I was only a dentist for like a five year period and then another four year period. It just the way it worked out for me. But the question of value add, I mean, you said you kind of talked about it a little bit, saying you want the patient to be happy. Yeah, of course. Put the value add from the referrers perspective of who’s a good periodontist to refer to and who’s not such a great one. I remember with Pete, one thing he used to do was he used to say to me, look, what’s the full treatment plan? And then kind of reinforce the full treatment plan with the patient. I would come back now fully sold, and that was worth, you know, everything that that was definitely worth passing the patient to. So is that is there an element of that

[00:20:09] One hundred percent? I mean, that’s one of the biggest things. I think I always get to know my referrers. What kind of treatment are they doing? Are they doing Invisalign? Are they doing bonding? What do they want to do then do on that patient? Because normally patients I mean, perio is just part of the plan and it’s easy to get them out healthy enough so they can then have more aesthetic work. So I, I do exactly the same things. I then reinforce it’s the patient, then they go away and it’s actually you know what, I, I’m going to go for this. So I think that’s a key element. I think the other thing is communication. A lot of my referrers said to me, I used to refer to someone I just don’t know what’s going on with the patient. Have they been booked in? What’s happening with the treatment plan? What’s going on? So I’m trying to be quite hot and communication, like when the patients referred or we receive the referral. We left the referral when I booked in, we let the referral report the day that the patient is seen by the NDA. So I’ve tried to remedy everything. Everyone wants instant now. And I feel that even with patient reports, the patient wants that report by the end of the day. So we try and really work towards that. And that seems to have results. I also think for me as well as the final thing, I guess it’s worked really well, is actually going out there and visiting your areas and getting to know them in person, because I think now it’s so easy just to. Frowns on social media and just think a message here will never actually make an effort to go and see that person and get to know them and perhaps organise a lunchtime, things like that, I think providing value is really important.

[00:21:40] And what about the kind of work itself? I mean, is there a type of periodontist that you are? So the kind of work the dog and for instance, are you the type of president who moved into employment placement or not?

[00:21:51] No, I’m not a tool. Actually, I made a decision early on to literally just do perio. I did enjoy influence and we did get trained on it, guys, and it was great, but I just didn’t feel like I was so tired on this. Just of course, you do other things as well. But for me, I just wanted to hone down on Perry, i.e. non-surgical treatment, surgery, knee surgery, get out of that crowd, lengthening all of that, treating recession, military lung surgery. So I decided that was enough for me to be there without the implants.

[00:22:26] So recession due to you finding you’re doing a lot more of that kind of work now?

[00:22:31] Yeah, for sure. I think with Invisalign

[00:22:33] Cosmetic, Berríos

[00:22:35] Cosmetic, I think even Signe’s realise that the guns are also important in aesthetics. It’s like if you have a beautiful photograph and you have an ugly frame, it’s not going to look the best. So people are realising the importance of it. Also has a lot of Invisalign going on, a lot of recession happening as a result of that, which sometimes can’t be helped. But that may be true or to a recession. If you’re doing a small maker of that type of patient who really looks in detail, it can make a big difference with with a small surgery for recessions in. That also means that quite a few young patients in the last few months, especially following the lockdown, I think people may be staring at the house longer, but a lot of young patients coming in saying, I am going to be small, how can I correct this? So that’s becoming those two big things. Thinning and recession becoming quite a major part of my day, really.

[00:23:26] What’s the what’s the treatment for recession? So every time I go to my hygienist, she makes me jump through the chair because I’ve got a recession. Right. And so they’re really sensitive when she cleans them at the bottom and she said, I’ll just brush too hard. And so what treatment do you get for that? And is the treatment purely cosmetic or does it provide a functional benefit as well? Where is it can help with the sensitivity?

[00:23:49] Yeah, the sensitivity was an interesting one. Say that the actual surgery we do this, lots of different types of surgery and different purposes do different things differently. I’m quite a fan of the Kellie’s approach. I do a lot of current splats and with connective tissue grafts and yes, it’s expensive. But in a lot of cases, as you said, it’s functional as well because your thickening the gum tissue. So you’re improving the quality of gum tissue, making it less likely to recede again in the future, make it easy for the patient to clean that area more comfortable and clean that area. So you didn’t always have to do surgery, though. I mean, a lot of times I would monitor it as well. But you’re actively monitoring all you’re measuring it. And in a year’s time, if it hasn’t progressed in an area where the patient’s not bothered aesthetically, then fine, you can say, well, it’s it’s not like you just jump in and do surgery for every single patient. I think you have to do it case by case. But sensitivity, sometimes the results, et cetera, sometimes doesn’t. Sometimes you to do that in other ways as well.

[00:24:45] You know, let’s talk about Cornick periodontitis. Has that moved at all since I qualified 25 years ago as far as the treatment and management of chronic peritonitis?

[00:24:58] Yeah, so now

[00:25:02] You go with what’s happening in that area. It happened to the actual tree is.

[00:25:10] Yeah. And obviously the new classification was staging and grading things, which is made is not really changed the way we treat them as such. But it’s made it more objective in terms of analysing that patient and making a treatment plan. Things have become a little more conservative before, I guess years ago, used to scrape away this momentum and be really aggressive. And now it’s all about the biofilm. And according to the new treatment guidelines, we’re using this new term called Papau, which is professional mechanical removal. So you do either suit projectable with subject. So there’s a big focus on that. There’s also obviously a big push on prevention or hygiene patients taking responsibility for their own health, I think in the past is that a dentist does everything. But now I would say to my patients, it’s 80 percent of what you do at home. So, yes, we are going to spend two hours talking about maybe not two hours, but we’re going to spend a long time talking about your home care at the clinic as well. We also look at risk factors is a big thing now. So we spend time on smoking cessation. We spend time on diet, advice to stress. Stress is huge. So you’re looking at your patient holistically now, more so than we did in the past, which is great. I think it makes it makes a big difference.

[00:26:23] But there’s been no advancement, no breakthrough.

[00:26:27] There’s been advancement in the way we treat the eye, the equipment we use, the technology we use. But the principals themselves, yes, I agree. They’re largely largely the same. But for example, because of the techniques we’re using for the advanced equipment we’re using, we’re doing less surgery. So now it’s more conservative. So I have to say about ninety five percent of the cases that I treat for periodontitis can be treated non-surgical. If it’s done well, I don’t how ever have any reduction surgery. So we have to reduce the amount of surgery we do

[00:27:01] To work on implants as well. Can I do people send you preemployment

[00:27:06] When they do, they do some test cases. I say not the most enjoyable to treat as we know the standard surgical treatment. And what you end up doing is just slowing down the progression of that condition. So never make any kind of vague promises to your patients on that one. But yet again, it’s another time bomb that’s going off. So I’m seeing it all the time

[00:27:27] In terms of your business and it just us through the process of it, it seems like you qualified as a as a periodontist and then you went straight into business. It wasn’t always in your sort of tea leaves, so to speak. The I was going to be a business woman or did it just come and then and then it just evolved from there.

[00:27:49] Yeah. So I thought process cause I could work for four or five practises running around every single day in different places. I mean, I was talking to my friends and specialists of years ahead of me and some of them were like on a two week timetable that they were in like and they were literally travelling miles and miles across the UK. And I just thought to myself, I didn’t want to do this. I don’t want to be knackered every single day. I’d rather have my own pace, do things my own. And that’s the other thing they were trying to is different equipment, different sets of different teams, all very sick. And continuity of care for the patients was was tricky. So I said to myself, right, what are the other options? And the other most obvious option was to do things myself. But I just thought, gosh, that’s scary. Where am I going to get Reffo? So because they’re all going to be if I was so I was in kind of fifty fifty whether I do this or not. And then I just thought, well that’s scary. What’s a risk. And what if it doesn’t work then fine, I’ll go and work for the classes. So I just decide to take risk. Minimal sort of risk. I was just paying rent for one room once a week initially and then it worked for United, so I just built from there. So I’ve always I’ve always wanted to do things my own way, very independent. And I think I’m not sure I would have been happy working in tandem process that they would have really stressed out about it.

[00:29:12] The business side of Dental difficulty to just come to you naturally. Did you did you make a lot of mistakes along the way? I mean, you’ve accelerated from hiring a room one day a week to having an entire floor on how history, which is no small undertaking and then making that place look fantastic. I’ve seen bits of progress on social media, but just take us through the journey of making the journey of business from going in one room a week, one room, one day a week through to having the whole floor on Holly Street. I’m assuming that’s open. How many days a week?

[00:29:44] Six days a week.

[00:29:45] Six days a week. Wow.

[00:29:47] So it’s been a bit of a journey last few years, I have to say. One of my mentors names, I’ve he is a business consultant. He’s a dentist, the dentist for like 20 years and then went into business. He has literally guided me through the whole way to having a mentor and a thing without a mentor could have done it because I guess a mentor is someone who shows you the way they’ve already gone that way and they already know what roads to the west time right and left and what obstacles to avoid. So I think having a mentor is absolutely critical when you’re doing projects like this, anything really. So that really helped guide me in terms of what the next steps were. And that was a key, I guess, every single point. I was like, OK, what’s the next step? This is working. What’s the next step? So I wasn’t like, oh yeah, in three years time I want to be in history. I did have that dream, but I didn’t. That’s not what I was focussing on. I was focussing on, OK, I’m busy one day a week now and it’s good to two days. I’m busy two days. Let’s maybe bring in a geneste and now I’m busy.

[00:30:43] Three days. Let’s hire place for five days and bring three more hygienic. So it was a step by step process and I think making sure each step was working seamlessly before moving to the next was really important. I think as well, establishing the business and the brand and having values is really helped. So obviously now we have a team of people say 13 people in our team for ideas. So it was quite a big team. And for me, obviously, when it was just me, it was very easy to maintain my brand and values. And what I decide to do from the very early onset was create three key values that I wanted any team member to have before they join when they join the team. And I think that really helped me select the right people. And I think it’s always about a team approach. And without having the right people on board, I don’t think I would have gotten this quickly. So it was both obviously personal efforts guiding and environmental, but also having the right people around you and in your team to support that. And and obviously, the key thing was making sure that the Refah was pretty happy with everything and going to

[00:31:44] Share your team your values than what others?

[00:31:47] Yeah, my team values. The first one is excellent. So whatever we do, we just need to do it perfectly to the highest standard. The other one is enthusiastic. So with me, like it’s not just a job. I mean, the way I see it is you’re doing this for the next hopefully forty years of your life for most of your day. Like, I don’t want you to come to work and just be like, oh, this is just a job. I want people to come in and be like, I really enjoy what I’m doing. Obviously everyone has their off days, but looking forward to coming into work and being enthusiastic because your patients can see that and it rubs off. Right now, my patients and I love coming in to see us because we’re enthusiastic. They’re enthusiastic. So I think enthusiasm was a very important value. And then the third one we have, which is probably not the most glamorous one, is reliable for me. Having, for example, someone who calls in sick the day before, it doesn’t work. Like unless you’re bedridden, you can’t move none of our staff. I don’t think I’ve ever called in sick. So for me, being reliable, if you say you’re going to do something, you do it. That’s that value is actually really important to me.

[00:32:52] You know, some some some people who really excel in school and university have that sort of institutionalised sort of thing about them, but it seems like with you, you’re managing the world of work really well, too. Would you say that? You know, I’d say that different skills, you know, passing exams and running businesses, totally different skills. But you look at them in the same way. I mean, did you sit and read business books before you started setting this up or what did you do? How did you prepare for all this?

[00:33:25] Yeah, I think it’s a completely different skill. And I personally think this should be taught at Dental schools. I just don’t know why. I mean, I hope it changes in the next few years. But the skill of running a business, understanding figures, understanding revenue, that kind of stuff is so important it should be taught to everyone. So, yeah, I had to learn it. I think I read books again. My mentors, business consultants, they went through all the metrics and all the things you need to know which you on tools Dental school and then you learn as you go along. So you see what works, what doesn’t work, and you change things. And I think everyone involved not mistakes, but you come across things that didn’t really work around. Let me try this. So it’s a skill that you have to learn, I don’t think. Well, I definitely had tools and I guess some people in involved with that sort of business ethos. But I definitely wasn’t. I was very academic. So it was a completely different ballgame. But, yeah, it was fun learning about it. And I think then combining both skills worked really well.

[00:34:24] What are the best and worst things about running a business? So sometimes there’s things that you do in your business that you just do because you have to do, but you just don’t enjoy it. And there’s some things that you do in your business where you’re in your zone of genius. And if you were doing that 100 percent of the time, life would be great.

[00:34:43] So I guess the best thing about running your own business is literally the fact that you can do every single thing your own way, using whatever equipment you want, spending however long you want with whomever you want, because you get to choose your team. And that makes all the difference in an environment you want to as well. So especially with the new clinic, it’s really made a difference to how much I always really enjoy everything, but it just magnified how much I enjoy going to work. So I think the best part is the thing is also working in a team is really fun. I don’t see my team members as I’m the boss or the we we will collaborate with each other. So we all bring different strengths and we try and support each other and build each other up. So that’s kind of the best thing about having your own business. And I guess you’re in control of things. You’re in control of the future of your business and who you bring on to the team and things, treatments you might want to offer. There’s a lot of your own challenge, I guess, with all those kind of things. I guess the negatives are you just can’t switch off.

[00:35:41] It’s yeah, you you never know. I don’t really quit working for me. What if it’s like play to me? I just enjoy it anyway. But you don’t switch off from your business. For example, you get an email, something happens and sometimes they’re very minor things, but you have to deal with them because it’s your business. So the way I’ve kind of tackled that before I in the first year was I got quite a trying to zone out work and play and I tried to say I’ve done for the day and then I get like patient emails or this and that, and I get really stressed out. Then I realised quite quickly on, if you want to do this, you just have to take a lifestyle approach. So and that’s how I work. That is more of a lifestyle I didn’t see as work and play. It’s just a lifestyle. So that’s the thing. You can’t switch off no matter how much you think you can, you just can’t do it. If it’s a bad thing, it’s just something you got to be aware of. So I guess that’s that’s the hardest bit for sure.

[00:36:33] And so how how different is life now? We were talking about study studying for your you specialise in wake up at five a.m. go to bed at midnight. Does the business of dentistry live with you during those hours as well? The first thing you do when you wake up in the morning, check Ivone, C, C, C, what you’ve got on or whatever and so on and so forth. How how is it now that you’ve moved from study into having your own business and the integration of the business into your life?

[00:37:04] Yeah, I think it’s quite different now. I think in terms of hours of the day, I still wake up very early. I still probably wake up at five, five thirty every day, wake up quite so. I do some meditation in the morning, so I actually don’t check my phone till I start having breakfast because I don’t think your first hour of your day is that’s when you have your best ideas. That’s when you want to be fully focussed. I don’t into my phone. I don’t get emails. The way I see emails, emails is just like a to do list, like someone’s telling you. What do you want to just unclassy zone that out for a later time in the day. So, yeah, the first I think the hours are the same, but my day is far better balanced. So I have time in the morning where I don’t work and then I, I walk to work. So I have twenty minutes where I listen to a podcast or listen to some music depending what mood I’m in and just think about my day ahead, then I’ll get into work. That’s when I kind of perou mode on and then I look at my day. I have to say through the move obviously I’ve been building a new clinic. It’s been so my hours have been longer, but on an average day when we start work at around eight thirty six, six thirty seven, sometimes it is a long day.

[00:38:15] But you know, make sure I have a lunch break. It’s a quite nice pace today. And then when I get home I do try and, you know, Dental stuff which I think is quite important. Some days I’ll have like podcasts or webinars or things on, but I’m not doing that every single night. And I think on the weekend I definitely try and do some non not switch off, but just do some non Dental stuff, other things that re energised me essentially. And also I’m not working. I’m not in the clinic. I don’t see patients every single day. So I’m working three and a half days in clinic and then I have a day of admin which is quite nice and doing non stuff as well. So I try to balance my week, not just my day as well. And what I’ve now said stuff is so strange, but on my calendar, on my Ikal, I have a zone, my, my actual calendar. So I have anything that’s work related and red, anything which is fun and what is fun. But everything is non Dental it is having blue every. So I try and make sure I’ve got my balance right, which really helps me actually. So I’m just too much red in the dark blue suit. Yeah. That of system seems to work for you.

[00:39:23] You know, we we ask everyone about clinical errors. I don’t know if you listen to this bit of the podcast before, but, you know, from from the from that sort of black box thinking idea of generally we tend to hide our errors and then no one learns from them. Can you share some mistakes that you’ve learnt from politically? And then we’ll talk about business wise, too.

[00:39:49] Yeah. Mistakes quickly. I guess when I was starting off with more complex surgery, as with anything, there’s a learning curve. And it wasn’t so much the actual clinical work. I think it was more as a way of saying dentistry, the communication side to, for example, wasn’t emphasising certain post op like you’re going to get a swelling, you might get bruising. I was just very much about that, whereas now I know exactly what’s going to happen and I’m very much in communication with my patient about that, which makes me, the patient, feel more comfortable that the side it’s the same then we’re aware of it. So I think it’s not really I would say it’s mistakes. It’s just I’ve developed as with anything in dentistry, you know what to say and what works. And what you should be saying is, I think is more the communication side. That’s it’s really improved other than clinical work. You just get better than we do. So it is easy and to shy away from with complex any Dental complex procedures and then not wanting to do it. But I’ve really pushed myself because to be fair, even during my specialist training, I didn’t do that much complexity because I’ve reached it. So like with Dental, the real learning started when I was actually seeing my patients and it was scary because I was in probably three dozen highstreet area. Seeing these quite demanding patients doing quite complex surgeries. I could have easily said, you know what, I don’t want to do this. This is definitely a composite. But I did push myself and I got better with time. So, yeah, I think it’s just learning from the communication side more than anything.

[00:41:21] But you not do not recall a case where it was rather than communication. It was something you took on that shouldn’t have taken on or something that you did that you wouldn’t do again or.

[00:41:32] Oh, I guess I, I don’t know, I guess now for me, it’s more patient selection, like you see those red flag patients where you’re like actually it’s probably better I do less on this patient than more. So I can remember actually a specific patient where we did quite a big treatment plan. And I just thought and it kind of total kind of she’s very, very picky about every single thing. But it turned into quite a sonogram to say it was all fine in the end. But it’s like I’d rather have taken that step by step with that patient to firstly suss out the patient, see what they’re about before offering a treatment plan. So I think, yeah, I think selection is so important in everything we do and understanding patients and what they’re like as a person is is super important to us.

[00:42:17] We also Obama that same question and he said sometimes one thing he’s learnt, he said something about patients. Patients can turn on you. Yes. Even ones that you think you really, really get on with can can turn on you in the wrong situation. And it’s difficult as a as someone who gets referred things. Sometimes you get patients. I speak to a lot of real highfliers. Sometimes you get patients coming to you saying you’re the answer to all my problems. Yeah, I’m sure in your world sometimes as a patient who’s not doing your hygiene bit right and then puts that blame on you, does that happen?

[00:42:58] Yeah, I think I completely agree with the patient. The patient that you’re with, your favourite patient just turns on you that that happens a lot. During my first year when I graduated, I saw that. And from then on, I just treat every single patient as though they all going turn on in a negative way. You just got to be ready for it. So but yeah, I think oral hygiene wise, it’s difficult because sometimes it can be patients can take it quite they can be quite patronising. 10 people ask questions. We’ve come up with a way in a clinic where it’s actually completely change the way we approach it to make them actually understand that we want to help you because we want to get the results for you mainly and we want the results to last. So this is why we’re doing it. And actually cleaning your teeth is quite complex and no one’s ever shown you. So we’ve come up with a way of communicating with patients that we are very strict. So the thing is, the home care isn’t very good. They did progressive having three actual non-surgical treatments that you have to be strict every single point. Otherwise, yes, you can blame it on you because you’re going to do some treatment and it’s not going to work and it’s going to be your fault. So you have to be quite strict.

[00:44:07] And some of the aspects of direct patient marketing in your practise does not exist or of word of mouth patient patient 100 percent.

[00:44:21] Yeah, because especially with a cohort who were in their 50s, 60s, I mean, Perilla is very common. The likelihood of their husband or one having perio is huge, that we often get to come in and have the treatment. Watching my husband he’s getting with. So yeah, there’s this huge market of what amount and then all the people who want to maintain their health to the focus of the clinic is not just trying to treat disease. Our aim is also to maintain health, which I think is just as important. So we also get a lot of direct patients calling in, especially younger individuals, 20, 30 year olds looking and saying, you know what, I just want to make sure my thumbs are OK. Let’s make sure that that’s OK. And I want to have Advanced Hygiene Assessment and clean, basically, which is great. I think when I was 18, 19, I don’t remember think my friends without worrying about their or health plans. Now, it’s like 16 year olds coming in wanting me to check them, which is amazing to have read it.

[00:45:31] Tell us about the teaching side of your your career. So the lecturing then? I’m not sure when Perio School came along, but your online courses are not this. Just tell us a little bit more about how you got into teaching. First of all, maybe the first time you stood up in front of a crowd, were you nervous? What was that like?

[00:45:50] Yeah, teaching. So I’ve always wanted to be a dentist, but my close second was being a teacher. I remember being like five year olds, like five year olds, kind of teaching my brother on my little blackboard. Like teaching was a very close second. So I always had it in the back of my mind. And I didn’t think I could combine both careers. But when I graduated from dental school, one of my friends actually said to me, Why don’t you? Because I used to kind of organised group sessions for my friends. Things like why don’t you organise a talk for like people who have just graduated, I’ve just graduated, how can I give a lecture? And, you know, you just share what you’ve learnt so far. It’s even just a year or two below. You might it might be something that. So I do remember my first Nacho’s tips for young dentists, I think it was, and there were about 10 people in this tiny little room that we organised, I was really nervous. I thought basically I was just worried that no one would find it interesting and helpful. And that was my main worry. So after that talk, so much positive feedback. Actually, this is more so it’s useful for people and maybe I should continue to do this. And so I then I decided to kind of keep organising talks and then did a professional teaching qualification as well. And I used to teach it to be fair, actually, when I was sort of in my teens, I did used to teach during my as part of a temple Monday, we had like music classes or to teach musical instruments to teach in classical singing, but it’s always like a bit of a teacher.

[00:47:21] But I had some skills, but I never thought I was any good. But then as a sustained positive feedback during the Dental sort of stuff, I decided to kind of take it further. Then it came from lectures to sort of courses, which was my first courses. Again, really bored people and find it interesting. But I think when you get positive feedback and you see people enjoy it and learn from it, you just want to do it again and again. And that’s when, I guess more recently we started the online teaching as well. So during the lockdown, it was really sad because so many courses booked up and cancelled like everyone else had cancelled all of them during class lockdown. But how can I just get the information out there to people? What can we do? And I just had an idea, why don’t we set up all the courses by an online format? So basically and the first two weeks of lockdown, I literally spent my whole day writing out my courses, scripts of pictures, etc. and then the week after I spent a week or two just recording them, it was so intense. And then again, I thought, God knows and finds interesting.

[00:48:23] He wants to stare at my face on video for like hours on end and listen to someone not there in person. But I just thought, you know what? Let me just get another list of people who had already booked on the courses. And it was amazing. Like people were really excited about learning right now and online. It seems to be the way forward. People who do it in their own time in the evening between patients. I see Perry School really has been something I did not expect to have left off, and it really has. And the most exciting thing was like doing things online. You accessing the global markets so always happy. Australia joined and India. And I was like, oh my God, I would never knowingly be able to travel to these countries and share information and knowledge and learning. But now I can. So we’re actually relaunching the website, just working on at the moment. We don’t in a couple of weeks with tons of content and courses. So that that’s a I’m really, really excited about that. It’s so nice that I’ve been able to combine both my passions. I feel really privileged to be able to do both you and teaching. So and it’s a big part of the new clinics. So we’ve got a lecture room. We’ll be running the courses in-house analysis. Yeah, it’s something I want to pursue further as I progress

[00:49:34] With the online side of things. I know I work very closely with the Academy on the online courses that he’s created, and then we pivoted to do it almost like a hybrid online course, which was they had to watch the online course first. We send them out a hands on kit. And so they do so with the zoom interaction from the feedback on that has been absolutely amazing in terms of the some people who would prefer to do it that way, then actually come to a venue or whatever and do it in person free or post covid. Right. So we’ve we’ve changed the whole structure of how the teaching at the academy is going to take place. And introducing more of this hybrid stuff is that is anything like if you’re going to be changing the way you structure your teaching in that form in any way because of the lockdown?

[00:50:26] Yeah, I mean, lockdown is literally code. The pandemic has changed everything. I think everyone is so much more responsive on education. People who used to laugh at me for using Zoubi now, like addicted to Zougam. It’s really interesting. Even people who aren’t that tech savvy are now like on Zulu’s. But it’s great. I mean, it’s opened up. So I don’t think this would have happened without pandemic’s. So I think it’s opened up a lot of a lot of opportunities. And I agree there’s a space for integrating both things. I do still think there is one hundred percent and need to have in-person courses that actual interaction with people in discussion is important, but a huge component can be delivered online. And as you said, I think the hybrid of having Zoome having you online and then having people on Zoome completely. I mean, that’s that’s that’s that’s fantastic idea. So, yeah, I think but I just think it’s just so beneficial because you’re able to reach for many more people, people who might not necessarily travel to your courses can now access it. So it’s just improving the education that we can deliver.

[00:51:30] It’s one thing that you wish. Dentist knew about Perrier, but they don’t.

[00:51:36] I think. One thing, I mean, quite a few things I would just

[00:51:44] You, if you

[00:51:46] Like, if it’s done well, you can do it well. It honestly can change someone’s life. I’m not joking. I have patients come back and they come back and they say to me, I just feel so much better. I have more energy. I just still be a different person. And it’s because of the amount of information they’ve gotten that can make an impact. So I’ve had patients come back and say my diabetes is now fully stable. Thank you so much. I mean, how satisfying is that? So I think don’t underestimate the value that you can provide with good care. Of course, you composites can be far more glamorous, but also they’re not really going to work unless your panels will help this pristine like we’ve all seen the cases on on Instagram where I mean, I just stare at the gums that you see some gums which are inflamed, never looks good. And sometimes it’s a nice pink and the whole case comes together so nicely. So we just wouldn’t underestimate the power of having it basically.

[00:52:43] So I think the systemic link is something really as a profession, we need to push more. I mean, I think there was even some chatter about the chances of having serious covid disease. Yes, but the Hotlinks been there for a long time and I feel like we don’t really talk about it now.

[00:53:04] I know it’s I find it really surprising. I think there is a big push on it now, but it’s such a hot topic. I mean, links between perio and diabetes, cardiovascular disease, but also the emerging ones like Alzheimer’s. There’s also babies busy with everything. And I remember when the Alzheimer’s one came out, I was in the BBC and all of the news I had patients actually Bookchin say I’m worried about getting Alzheimer’s. Can you check my gums? So patients are really hot on it. So I think we as a profession also need to be concerned. I mean, we should be saying to our patient, every patient that comes in. By the way, Mr. Smith, did you know that if we don’t get your gums under control, it may affect your general general health or by the way, we treat your gum disease? Did you know it might have a positive impact on your or your overall health? So patients might not be motivated about Perry, but they definitely might be motivated about their general health, and that’s one way to motivate them. So I think we do need to talk about it more. Sometimes it comes as a surprise that the mouth with the rest of the body, but it shouldn’t be because it’s all connected. So I think that that definitely should be more conversation with our patients, because you’ll find when you do talk to them about it, No. One, they’re interested in it and they take their health more seriously. The way I see things as well is it’s more multidisciplinary care. So working with, like diabetes specialists, working with other health care professionals. So we’re treating our patients holistically, not just about the gums and just about the teeth. It’s you. There are patients. At the end of the day, they’re a person. So treat, treat the whole thing.

[00:54:32] You know, the one thing that gets missed and it might be I’m looking at it from my my little lens is that, you know, white teeth. Yeah. As a profession, we push gums quite a lot compared to white teeth. And talking to hygiene is, you know, the whole question of behaviour change. Yeah. You know, patients who brush really will brush pretty well, a lot of them to keep their teeth white. And so I know our job is to re-educate, but there’s some scope for that. You know, we need we need to look at the psychology of a patient just as much as everything else. Go ahead, Prav. You look like

[00:55:09] You. Just something you said. This just resonated with me and I I’ve occasionally known to use widely praised and the you know, and Payman. Thank you. Thank you. I just need to send him a text message saying stick some Jarrod’s in the post May and they arrive the next day. But the one thing about my cleaning habits is that when my teeth are whiter, I give them more attention. And actually I’ve never thought about that until you’ve just mentioned it right now, that then I’ll pull out my little incidental brushes and the floss and give them extra care, because I’ve never I’ve never crossed my mind. But I do know is that around that time I’ve been wearing those hazmat my the way I’m giving my teeth a lot more. Look, you see that in clinic at all, or is that not part of what you’d observe and your typical practise?

[00:56:09] I completely agree. I think there’s a just a positive psychology of it, I think. And that’s similar to someone who’s got their start, even with their initial session with our hygiene is when they start noticing a difference, they get even more motivated and then they get even more motivated when they start to see their gums tighten up there. Oh, now I can see this is not hurting as much. So I think your patients have to see a change. They can’t you know, they’ve got to know what to look out for. So when your gums one of the biggest problems. In Paris, when you’re treating this condition, they’re going to get recession, when they see that, they’re going to think, oh my God, my mouth looks worse and my teeth are more sensitive. So then they’re not going to want to see you ever again. So I think the key thing is saying some what your gums are tightening up to health. It gums are just so swollen right now. So if you do notice them coming down, that’s a really good thing. So watch out for that. So it’s I mean, what ethos has always been positive? So not trying to tell the patient if you want to actually, you know what you’re doing really well.

[00:57:08] Now we’re going to issue intensive brushes. If you notice your gums get tighter, then that’s a good thing if they’re more sensitive. Yes. Well, actually, it’s probably a good thing. Don’t worry, we can deal with that. But if you notice that, it means you may be improving. So I think definitely we have to there’s a psychology of them nursing change. If they look better and they feel better as well, they’re more likely to comply. So it’s all kind of a three sixty one feeds the other. And that’s why in Auckland we are actually starting enlightened, exciting, actually, for the reason that also they get something that they’re looking forward to something. So at the end of all this gum treatment, yeah, you’re going to be able to have some whitening because now you can make it look nice as well. So there has to be an element of aesthetics, and that’s one element of feeling good and looking good and all. But it all works together. I think it’s got to work together.

[00:57:59] You know, you touched upon the mouth is connected to everything else, and gum disease can downstream impacts absolutely everything. And obviously the converse is true if we just look at systemic inflammation as an example and all the things that can impact that from sleep to what you eat, to exercise to even supplementation of various vitamins and minerals and whatnot. And what part of your role do you fulfil in giving advice to patients on things like that in and around the community? I know you touched upon it earlier. You were talking about how stress can impact things and whatnot. And so do you find your role as more of a holistic practitioner as well, or do you stick primarily to what’s going on in the mouth?

[00:58:51] Yeah, I think the thing is you have to be realistic to treat someone successfully, you have to look at everything. I’m not saying you become like a specialist in nutrition or specialist stress psychologists or whatever, but you do have to touch on it and give them the advice whether they have to then seek medical help or see someone else. I think it’s you do need to treat people. Has to. So, yes, in the clinic, whether it’s me, whether it’s the hygiene, we’re all touching base on the whole, the patient as a whole. To be fair, the way I see things going, which is happening to us already is almost working in a centre where you have, for example, a nutritionist working that you have a diabetes specialist and you all kind of working together. That’s where I see things going in the future. So be interesting to see what happens with that. But yeah, you can’t with perio especially, you can’t just look at the gums in the pockets and the bleeding. You’ve got to look at risk factors is a major part of what we do

[00:59:50] Is any test for susceptibility that works.

[00:59:54] Um, there’s no one test that you can do. Do you mean genetic susceptibility or just to

[01:00:00] Go to the environment? I mean, is there something some some saliva test or plaque test or something?

[01:00:06] Yeah, not at the moment that you can use routinely in practise that would work. So it’s more about a conversation about risk factors like diabetes, for example. How well controlled is your diabetes, which to be able to see? That type of marker is quite good. Things may change like you may get inflammatory markers or whatever. You take some from the from the pocket and look at that. But right now, it’s it’s not very practical thing that you can do on a daily basis. But the other thing I mean is genetics. Some people are genetically more susceptible. And I think there’s a huge I say to my patients, there’s a huge unfair element to this. And quite honestly, when I when I speak to the patient, they’re actually more accepting of their condition and they’re more likely to then say, OK, I want to do something about it, rather than the practitioner who says you want to brush your teeth. It’s all your fault. That kind of I mean, to me, I would just be like, OK, this doesn’t make me feel very nice. I don’t I don’t want to I don’t want to know about this. And I just switch off with, say, someone will. Miss Smith, part of the reason why you’ve got perio is genetics that we can’t control. But there is an unfair element. They might be actually, it’s not my fault. But, you know, I’m going to try and do something about it. So genetics is one we can’t control, but it should be a part of the conversation. And that doesn’t just apply to certain patients. Like half the reason why people have perio is genetic. So and then there’s risk factors. So don’t kind of push that to the side of things in a conversation to have with all patients

[01:01:31] In the different facets of your work. So you’ve got running the business, treating a patient clinically, having that patient interaction and changing the life and then teaching, you know, helping other dentists improve their skills, become better off doing what they do and what you prefer doing.

[01:01:50] I see I see a bit of content creation there as well. And you do enjoy the.

[01:01:55] Yeah, I think I actually enjoy everything in combination. Like, I couldn’t just teach all week. I couldn’t just see patients all week. I think having that balance to be one when I was studying, when one of my teachers actually said to me, it’s always worth having a balance, bit of the little practise, bit of teaching. But if, as you said, content creation, digital, the that works really well. And I think I’ve kind of figured out what works for me in terms of the number of days, how I want to do things. So I do have a large component not seeing patients, but I’ve got kind of half of that with teaching and half of it with other stuff. So I think I don’t think I can pick one thing. I think I’d have to do everything together to enjoy it the best.

[01:02:37] So you came out with this tongue scraper thing? Yeah. So it’s about that journey.

[01:02:43] Yeah. And so I always wanted my own product, but I realised quite quickly on I couldn’t compete with the big or the Colgate companies on toothbrushes and toothpaste. And one thing that I found enlightening was bad breath caused by a tongue coating and the two biggest causes of bad breath. One is gum disease, one is tomcatting. And the total sweep is that we’re out there would just like like the plastic ones. Firstly, I wanted to get away from plastic. I just didn’t feel they were very effective. So then I thought one in my country. But so that was really fun. So I designed it, that kind of stuff, packaged it. And again, it was just something that I was originally just going to give to my own patients. And then it ended up being quite popular. So we sell online to maybe resell at some point as well. So that was pretty fun. And I’d say pretty much all our patients buy one when they see the hygiene. So we got fancy with it. We had it ability to engrave people’s names on it, things like that, which is we get some interesting stuff on that. So, yeah, it’s it’s it’s been more of a fun project to be the. And having your own product is quite nice that you can then give to your patients and you think, wow, my dentist actually made their own product. It’s quite nice.

[01:04:00] I’ve always thought this should be like incidental brushing machine. That’s better than you always thought. I always thought you could have something you could stick in between everyone’s teeth. They an impression and then the angles are all correct and then you make something for them to get you in.

[01:04:21] Most of the time, I think it would be tricky, but you never know.

[01:04:28] So really, twenty thousand plus followers on Instagram told us about that journey, how you got there and what that is like as a influence on your life. How often do you check your phone? How often do you have to create content for that? Do you have to keep the story wheel spinning every day just to talk to us about social media?

[01:04:50] Yeah, I mean, social media for me. I don’t quite quickly after I started my blog page, because then I wanted platforms to share everything. When I first off, it was all about Facebook. Right. And now it’s all about Instagram and all the other platforms. I have some tech talks on my thing. The Instagram is kind of where things are happening right now. So that’s that’s where I’ve picked as my main platform. I think social media is a great way of spreading messages and sharing things, perhaps in a more informal way. So I set up my own personal Instagram account, which I call it personal. But the thing is, it’s it’s you can’t think that it’s on your personal page. It is kind still has to be professional in anything you do online. But Mirena on your page rather than my OTTAVI Paragould page, I set up first. And with social media, I think it is pretty much another job, to be honest. And if you want to do it and wants it, well, you’ve got to give it time. You’ve got to be prepared to engage with people. You’ve got to be prepared for conflict. You’ve got to be prepared to whatever you put out there that everyone is seeing is essentially a amplification tool. So whatever you put out that it’s going to be magnified. Everyone’s going to see it. And even if you delete things, that’s always going to be that really. So I really enjoy it. I think it’s very valuable. I think you get to reach out to people and share things that you might know.

[01:06:08] And for me, my personal one is more just sharing my journey, inspiring people, whereas my older people, one is more carrier based and sharing cases and what’s possible and patient testimonials. But it takes time and it takes time, as in not just the bills, but on a daily basis. So yes, I have at times during the day when I go on social media, for me at the beginning I was literally on my phone the whole time, like when I first started the whole social media thing. And it’s so easy to get caught up in that bubble of just being on your phone the whole time. And I realise it can get quite stressful as long as you’re constantly reading comments and having to reply to that. If you read a comment, you just feel like the urge to reply straight away. So then I decided on social media twice a day. So usually at lunch time, then at some point in the evening, and I try not to do it in the morning and instead of just try to preserve that time for the most important things. But I do limit myself and I think with social media now and a lot of young dentists’, I run a course for young Dental School F. Q And one of the things we teach is about social media. And if you’re going to create an account, you’ve got to know why you doing it. What are you trying to are you trying to, for example, for professional reasons for your patients? Are you trying to impress your peers? Are you trying to inspire others that you need to know what you were doing before you set it up? Well, one of the biggest things that I would say is, do you have the time for and do you have the content like content creation is you’ve got to have enough content as well.

[01:07:35] You don’t want to be posting once a month. You want to be posting quite regularly. So have you got that content ready as well? So it’s a whole other world and it’s very, very, very easy to compare yourself against other people as well. So I get a lot of message messages from younger Dental saying I want to set up a page, but I don’t think I’m good enough. And I see all these amazing cases, which, of course are everyone’s best cases on Instagram. And I feel it unfair. And I do feel like a post up. I hate literally all the time, but I think it’s very important not to negatively compare yourself with others on social media. You should just use it as inspiration. And what can you learn from them? Because it’s so easy to feel insufficient when you see some other people’s stuff online. So I think it’s such a simple message that people who are graduating students, they need to know that that it’s use as inspiration. Don’t compare yourself. Otherwise you can feel quite insecure about self.

[01:08:32] Do manage this all yourself. Really. You have got someone doing it for you or you post everything yourself.

[01:08:39] Yeah, I mean, on my personal projects, everything myself, on my practise page, I do have someone helping me for them in my clinic, but pretty much it’s me on my own page. I think it has to be. You’ve got to be. In an authentic and organic, no one can write a post for you and post pictures of you because people can see through that quite quickly. So if you want to grow and grow organically to the strengths, you’ve got to do so. Yeah, I mean, there are tools out there to help you that you have social media calendars where you can put things in advance to save you time. I’m just I don’t use that. But there are things if you are super busy and you’d rather get a whole bulk of posts out there for the week, do you not think it’s going to be you? It’s going to be authentic.

[01:09:23] Have you dabbled in paid marketing as well? I mean, you’ve got the horses, the tongue scraper, all that. Have you have you done some ads?

[01:09:28] I’ve done, yeah. I’ve done my courses on Perry School. I used Facebook and it works pretty well. I mean, what it does, it allows you to reach people who might not know about your calls. So I would I’m all for Facebook as it’s the only one I’ve tried, but I think there’s a lot of things out there, so it just allows you to record it.

[01:09:46] So, yeah, I think the Facebook has worked really well when especially with something remote like the like the online courses targeting dentists in other countries and stuff like that. Yeah.

[01:09:59] What do you do outside of work for you know, if you had half a day to yourself, what would you do.

[01:10:07] Yes, do I live next to Hyde Park, so I always I’m pretty much always there in my free time, I really enjoy going on walks into podcasts, although I don’t have a dog, I don’t love my husband. Let me have dog things compared to myself. So no dogs for now. But some my friends, if they look after themselves and look after random dogs, which is fun. I love cooking pretty much and veggie pretty much vegan. So being in deserts are a fun thing for me to do and I love reading as well. So and of course when we can meet up with friends is always a good time. I try to surround myself with people who are positive and a lot of my friends and non Dental actually they’re very successful in their own fields and I find that inspiring. So I like surprising with Dental people as well. I can.

[01:10:59] Really, the veggie vegan thing, is that a sort of sustainability, religious animal cruelty? What what’s what’s the what’s the motivation behind that?

[01:11:11] Yes, I’ve been veggie all my life, actually vegetarian all my life. So both religions I’m Hindu, I’m sonar. And so also very straight on ethics and things like that. It’s also something I’ve grown up with. Also, obviously, the animal cruelty side and the whole thing, really. But the initial reason was, was religion. But yeah, it’s great. Now, I remember like 10 years ago, there were no options for vegetarians because the thing is, like tons of stuff, which is which is nice, I think when before was quite difficult,

[01:11:42] Like it was I grew up I was born a vegetarian, if that’s the thing. Right. And I think I think the first twenty five, twenty two, twenty three years of my life I was a vegetarian and then I started lifting weights and my friends said to me, look, if you want to put some muscle on, you’ve got to eat chicken. So as I turned it over to the dark side and then actually more recently, my daughter came home one day and said, Dad, I want to be a vegetarian. And I said, Which one of your mates is a vegetarian? And she said, no, this is why I gave me a whole bunch of reasons. And she flipped us all the whole family vegetarian.

[01:12:23] Oh, my God, it’s amazing.

[01:12:25] It was pretty amazing. We tried to gone for a while and as much as as much as I’d love to. I can’t give up.

[01:12:34] So that’s the kind of eagerness she is is like kind of. Yeah.

[01:12:40] I mean, as you may you may have heard this question before, but, you know, we like to end this podcast just on legacy values and things like that so much. It was your your last night on the planet. And you had you know, you were surrounded by your loved ones and you have to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. What would those special.

[01:13:13] Three pieces of wisdom,

[01:13:16] Life advice, whatever, whatever you want to call.

[01:13:19] Yeah, I guess the first one would be have the courage, I guess, to live a life true to yourself. So I think often we live a life with trying to please someone else and other people’s expectations. But I think it’s so important that you read actually people’s you read all these things online, actually people’s regrets. And sometimes it’s just that they regret living their lives and pleasing others when it’s actually you want to be true to yourself. So I think the first thing is follow your heart, follow your intuition. They know what you want to be at the end of the day. You want to enjoy what you do in your life. As I said, you’re going to be doing it for most of the day, for most of your life. So don’t worry about anyone else. If you don’t enjoy something, there’s no point doing it, like find something you enjoy and make that your career and make that your your life. So I think sometimes it’s great to get advice from people, but if it’s not true to what you believe in, then it’s probably not the right thing to do. I guess my second one would be from kind of the last few years, I guess. Is that your comfort zone? Like, normally what you fear the most is what you need to do the most. So especially when I was doing the new kind of field, I was like, oh my God, what am I doing? This is a massive risk.

[01:14:37] I’m totally out of my comfort zone. I can easily just carry on where I am uncomfortable, but I realise I’m not going to grow unless I push myself. Same thing with surgical procedures, same thing with anything we do. If it doesn’t Scanadu, it’s probably not that important. So you’ve got to push yourself because once you prove yourself, it feels really good. You’re like, OK, I’m here now. Then you look for your next challenge. I think going out your comfort zone should be ingrained in us to be able to grow in life. I guess what else? One of the I guess is not really. My mantra is one of putting my faith. A guru always says in the joy of others lies your own. And for me that I always trust the back of my mind. So supporting others, like making sure other people around you are happy, is important sometimes you know and well, our life is short. We need to support each other sometimes the negativity out there. But I think we’ve got to try and build each other up and surround ourselves with people who are positive. And I think that will be my third one is in the joy of others lives around, both full of professionals, of all patients, I guess. Like one more excuse.

[01:15:45] Well, am I not going to give us

[01:15:49] Any other advice? But one thing I would say from from the way I’ve sort of gone, I’m still very early in my career, but sometimes it does make sense, like whilst you’re doing it. But then when you look back, the dots do connect. So sometimes it’s like, oh, oh, are you sure this is the right thing? And how is it going to kind of pan itself out if it feels right, if you enjoy it and all the other things said, it may not make sense of the time, but you realise what happened in ways that everything happens for a reason, even if it’s a negative thing. I’m not actually be a negative thing when you look back in 10 years, time to think that bonus also.

[01:16:27] Also when when you’re in it, when you’re in it, you don’t realise how significant the thing you’re doing is. Yeah. And it’s only years later sometimes and Prav, I’m sure you’re the same. You look back and you remember all that stuff I did at that point really was significant. But when you’re in it, it’s harder to sort of see the wood for the trees. Is it very lovely, lovely things you said, but your number one and number three, you of opposition with each other, which I really like

[01:16:53] Dental then

[01:16:55] Of course,

[01:17:00] And you’ll see how would you like to be remembered? Sorina was. Don’t Dental,

[01:17:09] I guess I want to be inspirational, I guess, for the dentists, for them to push the limits and not let age or anything else define you and just go for it no matter what people say. And I guess I wouldn’t want to be known for making a difference in the world, ultimately improving the health of the nation, if I can, but ultimately making it more competitive. I think it would be nice to be a wonderful, beautiful.

[01:17:36] And if you had. Thirty days. Left with your health advocate intact and you can do anything you wanted for those 30 days, what would you do?

[01:17:51] Oh, I think I spent days with my family. A family is everything to me, so I think I spend them with my family probably on a nice tropical island somewhere on a beach. Having a great time without being my ideal first is

[01:18:08] Really, really, really. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. It’s been truly so impressive.

[01:18:16] Thank you for having me.

[01:18:19] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street.

[01:18:30] Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:18:35] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it

[01:18:49] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:19:00] And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] Someone’s coming to you in pain, you’ve got them out of pain at a time when you didn’t have space to do it, and then I might do something weird, just be like, you know, don’t worry about it. Don’t don’t pay for it this time. Just bring me someone else. Just random things like that. And they’re already shocked. Amazed, like they’re always like, oh, this is incredible. You’ve done so much for me. I’m so happy. I mean, I’m out of pain. And then you kind of just like, you know what another element of it, if I wanted money from you today, I’ve just I’ve done that before. If you want as an example of something that will just give you something to talk about. But then off the back of that, I’ve had patients. I’ve had I know I’ve had people come to me, I’ve had gifts given to be I’ve had concert tickets, all these sort of things come off the back of just making someone happy, you know, just doing something different.

[00:00:50] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:07] Gives me great pleasure to welcome the other Payman from Dental Payman Kabani young dentist is making waves from, from my perspective, seeing your wonderful work on Instagram and and your wonderful work on the DJ decks. But he is

[00:01:24] A pleasure to have you both. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

[00:01:27] Tell me about your brother’s highly accomplished sort of Harley Street and the dentist. Is that the reason why you became a dentist?

[00:01:36] I probably wouldn’t say it is that I think he definitely had an influence on my choices career. But it was actually when he sent me to his friends so I could get braces that made me want to be an orthodontist to begin with, which is funny because now is my least favourite thing to do. However, it it definitely started something by seeing what he was he was achieving and what he was doing gave me an idea. But I kind of always wanted to be maybe a few different choices, you know, when to be a plastic surgeon. I still want to be a plastic surgeon. I still think I’d be great for plastic surgeons. But I think that with being an architect. But it was only when I really went to have my braces that I thought, yeah, dentistry is for me.

[00:02:17] Where did you study

[00:02:18] Study in Leaders class of 2012 qualified. Yeah, and it was it was a great time. Needs was I say I feel sorry for people that didn’t go to Leaders. I think everyone feels that way about their uni. But I think all this kind of student cities, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, all those places where people have real fun at uni. And I think I always highly recommend people asking me where to go. I always say get out of London and go to places like that.

[00:02:46] When you go up north, did you feel like an outsider being from London at all?

[00:02:52] I think there was there was a lot of Londoners that I think went there. And and Leeds is a city that is run by students. It’s you’ve got like two or three hundred thousand students, I think through five or six different universities is kind of you know, there’s a lot of different units there and it’s a huge one. So when the students aren’t there, there’s no one there. So, you know, people coming from all parts of all walks of life or different backgrounds, which is why I guess it’s such a fun place to be. Feni.

[00:03:21] Rove was very similar, actually, when when when the real students used to leave, when we were left there, when we were the longer terms. Exactly. You could feel the town just just go down

[00:03:33] Because it

[00:03:33] Was such a big part of the population. I’m sure Oxford was very similar to Prav.

[00:03:39] And I stayed there when a lot of the other students went home and it was just like bicycle’s chained to railings, left there for like six weeks or whatever, and it’s a ghost town. So that’s why my my friend Circle was always what we refer to as townies and then students. Right. So I had had quite a varied friends circle and, you know, and that was the reason why really, because when the sued most of the students, it called. I was still

[00:04:06] Hanging out there. So, yeah. What were you like, the Dental stupid. What was I like as Dental student? I think much the same as I was throughout school, throughout everything. I was just plain average, I think. I don’t think I was you know, I’ve never really excelled anything academically. I think I was always middle ground to the point where even though I actually I actually failed my A-levels, I’m one of those retake chemistry guys. It was never natural to me to be a science based person. I think I was always very English literature. I did for A-levels. I did art for a little while. And so those two were easy to me. I didn’t I didn’t struggle with those. That was something that but in the biology and chemistry, that was kind of like, OK, I need to spend some more time on this, but I never really wanted to. But I knew I wanted to be a dentist, I guess because of the art side of it, which made more sense to me as to anything else.

[00:05:02] Do you think now, like we were talking about kids and, you know, you haven’t got any kids yet. But let’s let’s project forward. Your parents were sort of the first generation immigrants, as were mine. And, you know, first generation immigrants tend to push their kids into these sciences sort of practical degrees. Do you think now you as a second generation, you know, fully established kind of kid, if your kid was more arts and literature based durcan, you’d push them into, not push them, but allow him to be a movie maker or whatever?

[00:05:35] Yeah, I think absolutely. I think I sometimes the back of my mind, I think what if I just did that path and see see what had happened and all that I was ever that great at. It was just something that I think came more natural to me than the sciences. But I think that for sure, if someone if you know, if my kids were into that and I think I’d want them to be into that, I’d want them to I I’d hope they were a little bit more into that bit more that creative side and a bit more. You can get more out of that. I think in some ways dentistry is is is great, but you’re kind of stuck as a dentist. I think that’s that’s what you know, there’s no there’s nowhere else you can go. I always kind of intrigued to know these are the degrees other people take up. The other courses are the degrees and they they go down different paths and start new careers. Everyone knows where dentistry is. No one knows what you do. If you end up doing something like arts or something that you end up you can go anywhere else with that, you know. So I think I would I would I would encourage it for sure.

[00:06:31] And your brother, I mean, when you became a dentist, he was already fully established on Harley Street.

[00:06:39] Exactly. It was.

[00:06:43] So you were kind of accelerated into that world?

[00:06:45] Yeah, I think I was. I don’t know. I don’t know how many people came out of dental school into Harley Street. I think that was that was that that was your. Well, I did vte. I did. And elsewhere. But towards the end of my Betsie, I’d already started working there. I didn’t even allow the things that we to go to like May. I think he went on holiday and he was like, you know, let’s see what you can do. And I remember he said that he was on our graduation day. Actually, it was always in his mind. I think that that would be the plan on my graduation day. He just said, let’s see what you can do if you fly or swim in that environment. And I went straight into that after towards the end of VTE. And, yeah, I’m still there. I’ve been there the whole time. And it was it was a gift, I guess that, you know, I always say it that way. It was always very fortunate to have been given that opportunity very early in my career. Some people come to me asking advice and what they can what they should do and what path they should take to get this job. And I’m like, you know, you’re probably not asking the right person because it was it was given to me. And which is a different situation to most, but I had to fit the role. I think that was that’s the difference as to where I had to go through my head to the game so I could fit in with that crowd, I guess.

[00:08:09] I mean, it’s a Prav, it’s his his brother’s practise is one of the most beautiful Praksis I’ve ever been to. It was stunning. Anyway, those buildings are stunning, aren’t they? Anyway, he’s done he’s done something wonderful with it as well.

[00:08:23] We’re moving we’re moving on to the new one next month, removing. Oh, really? Really. So we’re moving two to one to seven, which is opposite. He’s expanded the surgery there and he’s just in the midst of the build for that. So literally across the road. But that’s going to be an amazing practise. I mean, if that was anything to go by, which was 12 years ago, this is going to be a, you know, referral centre is going to have all the top equipment. Everything has been put into this place. So I’ve kind of went to see it when he first got the keys and I said, I’m not really going to go back until it’s done. And I’m kind of involved in my room and the planning of that. But I just I don’t want to see it. I’m just going to want to kind of just walk in and experience it. That’s kind of where I get that one really proud of me for doing it, especially at times. And I like to think I helped along the way maybe to get it to the point where it had been there for eight years. I like to think that it my baby on his say. But yeah, it’s exciting.

[00:09:24] Having a brother in the field is super useful. I mean, I’m thinking of Depay. She’s got one brother who’s a dentist, one brother’s technician. And are you aware of that? Do you do you feel that or not? You know, you could have any questions answered straight away by someone who’s fully experienced.

[00:09:43] I’ve tried to always keep that in the back of my mind that I’m lucky to have that. You know, I didn’t let that slip away from me. I think he was always a clinical dentist. Does he’s a clinician first and foremost as a as a mind over being a business owner or being a practise owner. But I think having him as a mentor from that perspective of clinical dentistry was one thing. But also, I think what I learnt way more than that, even from him is, is management of of patients and his staff for sure, because your staff are incredibly loyal to him. But management of patients has what I think is really stuck with me and how to speak to people and how to understand them and how to do things that they they don’t expect in order for you to stand out from the crowd. Give them give them a reason to talk about you, I think is at dinner. That’s what I always do, something that day to make your patient go home and tell their wife about you. Not just that. I went to the dentist today. I went to the dentist and you did this and it was my blue, like that sort of thing that was really strange. And expect that that’s what I’ve always seen him do day in, day out. And that’s what I think stuck with me and made me able to treat patients the way I do.

[00:10:56] So can you give us an example of either one thing? You brother, you’ve done the sort of things like stand out, you know, is it is it shock and awe service? Is it is it going above and beyond? And just some specifics in terms of what are you delivering that makes that patient not only say, hey, you know, I got my teeth fixed today, I’ve got a beautiful smile, but something else that sparks that conversation, I think

[00:11:19] I think we don’t have an opening line. We don’t have a closing time. I think that’s one thing. If you have an issue, you will be seen, I think is, you know, if you call us up and you say, listen, I’ve got this problem, I need to be seen by someone, we will accommodate that. Firstly, I think that’s because of our patient base, our patient base of ninety five percent, probably 90 percent Katari. So we’ve always worked on the basis of these guys. I’m going to be around. So you have to do the work when you don’t. But in the sense of what we may do for that patient is, you know, typically things that we you know, I personally had examples where a patient may come in excruciating pain first. They have accommodated them at the end of my day and maybe they’re two, eight, nine p.m. and then they always find a root canal example was really good. That’s probably why it’s been successful for him, is because someone’s coming to you in a lot of pain. You’ve got them out of pain at a time when you didn’t have space to do it. And then I might do something weird, just be like, you know, don’t worry about it.

[00:12:17] Don’t don’t pay for it this time. Just bring me someone else. Just random things like that. And they’re already shops amazed, like they’re always like, oh, this is incredible. You’ve done so much for me. I’m so happy. I mean, I’m out of pain. And then you kind of just like, you know, another element of it. If I wanted money from you today, I’ve just I’ve done that before. If you want as an example of something that would just give you something to talk about. But in the back of that, I’ve had patients I’ve had I know I’ve had people come to me. I’ve had gifts given to be at that concert tickets. All these other things come off the back of just making someone happy, you know, just doing something different. I don’t recommend it was not a great business model, but it’s a good way to kind of just because, again, for our practise, we’ve never we have never had a website. We don’t have a website. You won’t find us, really. And it’s. Always been like that is purely word of mouth, purely word of mouth, Payman.

[00:13:12] What is it about the point where there must be some energy in the room or something for you to turn around and say, no problem, buddy. This one’s on the house, right? I remember when my dad had the cornershop, he gave the old musbah away. Right. But what that was usually a connexion, right? Whatever it was. What is it about? You go through that treatment you did. And he said, you know what, buddy? Don’t worry about it.

[00:13:36] It’s I think I think it is Mitry that I think sometimes I just like to shock and surprise. And I think I think it’s when you’ve obviously had that rapport with them, you can tell that they’re really happy with everything. You can tell that they’re already going to talk about you. And it’s just adding that little extra thing sometimes that, you know, again, I could probably count on one hand, some have done that, but I know off the back of it and I think it’s just in that room, you just that patient is already so grateful that already you’ve already done everything that you needed to do to to to get them to the point where they’re happy with the service that you provided. But it may not still be enough to for them to talk to you about the talk about you over dinner with their friends on a Friday night. Just, you know something, just if I went to this amazing practise and it’s not going to be voicing that they had something for free, it’s going to be more waisting. I went to this beautiful practise. I saw dentistry. Listen to what I said. I didn’t experience any pain. It’s all those things that I expect they’ll remember and then then express to others.

[00:14:44] And just just the clarity of the business. Right. Is this a business that you control with your brother? Are you an associate there? What’s what’s the special?

[00:14:53] I’m an associate that practise. And this there’s been talks of of of things potentially in the future. But I’ve never seen it as that for me or, you know, I’ve seen it as my brother’s practise. I, I think if it was an opportunity or the right time, the right opportunity came across. Maybe, maybe that what would make sense down the line, I think it could well go that way. But I’ve done something else by my own practise separately to that to kind of just be like, you know, this is also there is another opportunity, something else that I can do.

[00:15:28] So question for you that if it wasn’t your brother’s practise, would you still give treatment away on the house?

[00:15:35] Yeah, no, I think that’s that’s what he would do. I do things that I. I see how he’s done it. All of these things are just kind of like what he’s done before. Yeah. I don’t think it’s these things that I’ve probably come up with by myself. It’s things that I’ve seen and it may not be that and it’s not always that, but there’s just things that we that we would we almost all our patients on my business call has my personal mobile number. Every patient after that will get that personal mobile number and they never call. You know, it’s not always like always giving that away. You know, it was going to bother you. I’ve been giving that call out for eight years and very rarely do I get any message. Sometimes I get like a happy birthday or something like a someone complaining about anything or any issues. But it’s that you see that in their eyes when you done that and you’ve given them that number and you said, that’s my personal number. And if you’ve got you can call me directly. You face something like, oh, wow, taken aback by it. And it’s just I think it’s an extra blanket of support that they know they have. Having been to that practise

[00:16:40] Payman a couple of questions. How did it end up being 90 percent Katari and how how does it differ from treating patients who don’t live here and, you know, the cultural issues that were there.

[00:16:56] So initially it came again, this is Leaders on perfectly to this because this whole business model came from one patient. So there’s again, that whole model comes from treating that one patient correctly who happens to be connected to the Qatari embassy. And that’s what we still see. That patient, my brother still sees him. And, you know, by having done that, he’s gone back to where he’s worked to be like, oh, we need someone to refer to. Let me send you all our patients. So then the embassy pays for their treatment mostly. But it’s like NHS. They won’t pay for some things. You know, there’s there’s an implant dentistry, the basic dentistry. I generally don’t pay for it. So if they want that treatment to be done, then they found that themselves and now they get it. Things change over time. They start to pay a little bit less. They start to prove less patient. But that patient base is difficult because they’re coming in with translators. So you’re only ever as good as your translator. They’re coming in with medical histories as long as your arm. I don’t know what it is about some of those countries, but it’s like, I guess some Iranians, they just don’t really you know, they sometimes I just think they can pay their way out of it or there’s someone that can pay their way out of it for them. So there’s long medical histories and they don’t know their medical history. They don’t really know what’s wrong with them, even, you know. And then you’ve got to have this whole conversation is to like you need all this work to be done. You’ve got two weeks to do it because they’re about to leave the country. You’ve got to get approval from the office for the treatment to go ahead. And they expect that they can pay for that. They always will pay for everything. So they like. Yeah, doctor, I want Hollywoods my. I can’t give you that, my friend.

[00:18:45] You say we consider that if you consider setting up a little branch in Doha.

[00:18:50] Yeah. That’s that’s you know, I always watch this space sort of situation with that one with me. It’s always, always had that in the back of his mind. And it’s and he goes there a lot. You go there every every six weeks or so to see patients are really six weeks to maybe six weeks, two months, something like that. You’ll go there to see patients. So, yeah, it it makes sense, I guess, but it’s weird. It’s become like a brand, you know, Savani, because we see so many of the patients and we see a lot of that. They’re important people let’s say. So I think they become a little bit of a brand. People want to come to see Savani. Just it just

[00:19:33] It just goes to show, doesn’t it? Prav, I know this would be resonating with you, that sort of hand-to-hand combat of the beginning of business where you haven’t got enough customers, patients, whatever, whichever business it is, and you’re going out of your way for every single one, you know, surprise and delight, shock and awe, whatever you want to call, just doing everything you can for the few customers that you’ve got and and that one customer patient becoming the source of twenty years. But instead of you know, it just goes to show how how important that human touch to service element is. Absolutely.

[00:20:14] And I think that’s that’s why it’s been so. For me, the other thing is I kind of I for everyone knows this because I’ve always been in it. I think it was always something that I thought that it’s just every practise does it this way. And so you realise that it’s not like that. And, you know, as I’ve bought my own practise, I realise that you’ve got to you’ve got to show people that you’ve got to train people to to have that mentality and to do things in that way, because it’s all about that patient journey. Right. From how it is when they pick up the phone to how it is when they they’ve left your practise and they’ve got your mobile number as a as a as a blanket, I guess, of, you know, is that sort of touch with things is I thought everyone did. And then I really realised it wasn’t that way.

[00:21:05] And, you know, that sort of high end level of service that you deliver, you know, not having in a close in time, for example, or just going above and beyond. Right. Or perhaps when you’re in someone’s mouth and you see something, I actually think, you know, I’ll just tidy up a while I’m here sort of thing, and I just go that extra mile and, you know, if I’ve just got my business head on right. And I’ve just got my numbers head on, I look at and I it’s not scalable as a business model.

[00:21:32] Right.

[00:21:33] But from the other from the other side, I look at it and think you’re providing a level of service that nobody else does. Right. And that and that’s your USP when you’re looking at, let’s say, the growth of your practise or the growth of your business or the growth of you moving forward, because staying open till 9:00 pm every night isn’t scalable either, especially when the kiddies come along. And although Payman might tell you to delay that process,

[00:22:01] He’s got his hand on. He said, I’ll get these days to get out right now.

[00:22:10] And what is what is the plan? Is is it to deliver like just the highest and service that’s delivered by you and people come to see you? Because I can’t see you having a team of six, seven, eight associates who will deliver what you deliver unless they come with the same family. And this has got to come from family values. Right. And unless they come with them, it’s going to be hard to find and replicate.

[00:22:36] Yeah, I think I think that’s definitely true, and that’s what I’ve always kind of said to me, just to like, what’s the plan? Like what where where is it going? Because he’s he’s 20 years old and he’s in his fifties now and he’s just building another practise and he’s thinking of you thinking this and that. And it’s like, where does it kind of stop? Where does it where does it go? Where’s the end up? I think we’ve got you got better as time’s going on. I think we go through periods where we call riding the wave. I guess if there’s if there’s an influx of patients here, then we will see them. So it’s not always like that in times we skate it back and we were less busy and, you know, we have more normal lives. But you’re totally right in that sense of where does it where does it go from here? How do you sell that sort of thing on which I guess one of the reasons that I started looking at other things in terms of what if I’m looking at a business perspective, it didn’t make sense to me for, you know, going in and buying that sort of practise is where does it at the moment? It didn’t. I think what I needed to do was to maybe get a little bit of a business experience in a little bit of money behind me or something that I could actually afford to run a practise that way, because I would like to I think ultimately I’d like to come back and have one practise that I work in and is run that way. And I don’t really mind about what’s going to happen later on. I think that’s how he’s he’s done it.

[00:24:10] Do you see this as a business sort of centred around your lifestyle, your values, what you want to deliver, rather than this machine that you want to multiply and grow and scale? Because at the end of it, you are the business, right? Payman.

[00:24:26] So absolutely, I think but I think that goes to say for pretty much all of the practises on Wall Street or or, you know, it’s it is that way. Holosuite practises are very One-Man Show. There is there is everything generally coming to see my brother first and foremost and he’s busy. So that’s kind of how it really works. But it’s but it is that show and it’s always it’ll always be generally is that game. And I think every practise that there is is a little bit that way. No one’s got multiple practises on Wall Street or has some history as multiple other ones, because it does take up a lot of your time to to grow a practise like that.

[00:25:08] What about when you bought your Bromley practise? The difference, I mean, that must be a totally different type of patients and probably did you buy it when you started?

[00:25:20] So I’m one of the Dental D.C. partners with with death. Oh, yes. So they’ve I’ve known them for for a long time, mainly for Amet. And a couple of other friends who I met were quite good friends at uni. We were at its wedding when I’ve known that before. But we got it. We started speaking about it really. And it kind of just made sense on the basis of the fact that if I am a clinician, I love clinical dentistry and I but I’ve always wanted to own my own practise. But I also feel like to do it in a in a way that I know makes business sense as well. I don’t want to just kind of put all my money into it and work there and not really get anywhere. I’d like to hit the ground running, I guess. And that’s what Dental beauty as a group will will allow, allows clinicians that a good dentist. Fundamentally, there are a lot of good dentists. What exactly this all this coming on board that that I know of. And it’s a movement that’s happening and it’s because you have that clinical freedom to do what you want to do and you can do it completely your own way because it is your your practise. But I wouldn’t have chosen you or you. They will do the practise with you if they didn’t think you were up to the standards.

[00:26:32] And that was important for me. I wasn’t I didn’t want to go in as a a corporate and be told I can’t audit this. I can’t do that. I wanted to be given complete clinical freedom to do the dentistry that I want to do, the way that I want to do it and the way that Dental butI know that I do it, which is why they chose me or wanted me to do the practise with. So there was an appreciation there that I felt which made sense. But Bromley is as a place it was it was it was a practise that they were already in the middle of buying. And it was it just made sense. It was it’s a big practise. If you’re going to do something, do it properly. So it’s six surgery practise with room to expand to eight, nine surgeries. If we going to it’s got legs to keep keep going if we wanted to. And the patient base is that’s what it is I didn’t know about before, but that’s what made me so happy being there is that, you know, just nice people. And I think it’s probably because I’ve been speaking in broken English ta to page to pay so much, so much Arabic if a fruit working with with with the Qataris.

[00:27:39] But I’m doing it in my hope. My whole console is so in between the two. But just it’s just nice to be able to sit and have a conversation with someone for forty five minutes for an hour and get to know them as a patient and to get them to experience what I’ve learnt through working with my brother, which they may not have seen the dentist that were seen by before, and then also to get the appreciation from those patients which I didn’t feel I was getting from some of the patients that I see in the west end of the street is not you don’t you don’t still get that if you go above and beyond for one of these patients, it’s a whole different story. And if you go above and beyond for a, you know, one of our patients on High Street, because it’s almost like they expect it, they expect they’re coming there, they expect that level. Whereas if you do it for someone in Bromley, it’s kind of like, oh, well, I’m going to go and tell everyone about you. I’m going to write you Google reviews. I’m going to I had a patient cry in my console because she was so happy about being the type of pricing.

[00:28:44] I always found it when when you go from a practise that’s cheaper to practise, is more expensive for about two days, you’re like, what the hell? The prices are high here and then you get used to going the other way. Let’s be difficult. All the prices lower.

[00:29:01] That’s that’s the other thing about I think generally the other good thing about Dental parties is because they know that delivering a certain level of quality, the prices aren’t that. You know, we all the prices generally have around about the same sort of price point, pretty much all of them. And because all the services, the way we do the I mean, just look at next as a dentist, he’s not going to be doing things. How fast is it? He’s going to be doing it every possible way it can be done. So he’s going to charge for it. And as we all do so, our price point isn’t that much lower. It’s expected to be a little bit lower. But, you know, I don’t I don’t I don’t see I don’t notice a massive, massive difference from that,

[00:29:43] You know, your other life as a DJ. So those were that whether that stuff

[00:29:55] I was deejaying from, what year of school was I like twelve, thirteen years old. And I was always I was like a garage deejay, like, you know, making mix tapes of. My friends, I’m seeing thinking we’re super cool, and then I went to uni and one of my biggest regrets is just not doing it for you and I was an idiot. Why would you go to uni and not carry on doing what you kind of always enjoy doing? But it kind of got to the point where I was, like, so annoyed that I didn’t do that at uni that I came out of uni and then went really hard into it. During my first few years after after Dental school, I did like a three month programme, which was like just to kind of catch up with what I’d missed over the last five years. I’m very much like that, by the way. I’ll do a course on something. You know, if I don’t know something, I’ll do a programme or something about learning about it. So I did that. It was like 12 hours a week after work that I’ll go, you know, three, two or three nights a week. And then I just started doing my, my, my, my brother in law. He’s got a couple of clubs and restaurants. My wife’s brother. So you tell him this. He says that I probably killed one of his venues. I started to, but I started doing that, started doing a couple of venues with that. And then I got in contact with Millard’s singing dentist lot again for a number of years since when he was like fifth year of uni. And I was a kid. We had family, friends that were similar. They were they knew each other.

[00:31:31] So I got in contact with him. And then he was like, yeah, OK, I’ll start deejaying together. And then we started doing like secret brunch parties and things like that. And, you know, we had a couple of paid gigs here and there. And then he got too big for me. I guess that he he did mention on this podcast that I was the first one to post this video. I did listen to that. He did shout me out there. So he he gives his success to me. Thank you. Thank you. He urged you. But, yeah, that’s that’s what it is. I think it was kind of it was a lot of it in like 12, 14, 15, 16, something like that. But then I realised that it’s kind of hard to side of the brain thing again. You know, it was I couldn’t do it. It was that that dividing those tunes and having one life that was doing the whole creative deejaying, taking and doing the other side, which was the the work and the clinical work I needed to eat. I needed to make some money. So I took the I took the road to dentistry and I this all those things that, you know, there was always things we always around the crowds of people that I could have taken it a little bit further but were never going to be massive. It was always a hobby. You know, it was always mainly me that I still love the music. I still love the scene. A little bit too old for it now, but I’ve had two years in lockdown, so I’m thinking I’m going to get back on it. But it’s it’s you know, it’s been a hobby of mine more than anything else.

[00:33:01] If you’re that first flight to be far away,

[00:33:04] There’s a couple of times a year we got married. There we go. It’s a very we were thinking of moving there last year. We’re not done. It’s one of those things even crossed our mind. But, yeah, it’s that’s and that’s like a second home.

[00:33:20] And the whole Dental beauty thing, how does it actually work? Did you Coleby a practise together? What was the what was the set when when you got involved with that process

[00:33:30] So that they were this practise they had already kind of put an offer in? Yeah. Normally how it works is if you if you know, it depends if you want to be partner. Yeah. Then approach them and then there’s like keys. As soon as you show any interest or anything with that view, you straight away beyond the most organised person I know you cuz you up there. And then I’d find I struggle to find how much time in the day to do things that he does, but he will call you there and then, and then he’ll get to know you get the information from you and then see where you want to have a practise. Fundamentally that’s the first and foremost thing I think he asks is where where do you want where are you? Where do you want the process to be? And then straight away and, you know, as soon as he finds something, he’ll go in together. You can view the place. If it works, the numbers work. And that’s where I needed the help with I don’t know what I’m looking at these sheets and I don’t know what the numbers mean. I don’t know where it relates to is, although I don’t have the buying power in the sense that when you’re going through a group like that, you’re more likely to get the practise that you want because the backing behind you, you know, there’s your easy ways. It’s easier to get the practise if they think you’re more serious. So as me going in, they don’t know who I am, they don’t know what I’ve got. So I thought, you know, if I did this on my own, it’ll probably get me take me two years to get to the point of just getting the practise to start with. Whereas with these guys, everything was just way faster

[00:35:03] And one foot forty nine. Fifty one model.

[00:35:06] Forty nine. Fifty one. Yeah. Yeah. So and I was fine with that. I did push back on initially but then I thought it makes sense if I was doing it, if I was them that’s how I would do it. You wouldn’t want someone to stop you doing things. You know this. Forty nine. Fifty one. But your decision share is still is to equal. They won’t do anything that I would say I wouldn’t want to do nothing to, but I still feel like the buck stops with me. I still feel like this is your practise. How do you want to run it that will give you advice on things and say, you know, so this, this and this reason when you’re looking at the numbers, this doesn’t make sense. But if you want to do it, go ahead. I guess. And that was important to me from the start.

[00:35:50] The forty nine. Fifty one, just for clarity. They own fifty one percent of the practise you own forty nine percent of it. And in terms of what you bought in, you paid for forty nine percent of the shares or. Exactly. Pound for pound. Or was that like a minority discount.

[00:36:06] It was a, I think it was, it was, it was pound for pound I think. Yeah. We went in that way in terms of getting finance so we didn’t put all the money up is it. Was I put up forty nine percent of the deposit, they put up fifty one percent deposit and then we get bank finance for the rest.

[00:36:23] And then as a as just more on the business side of things as well as you working in the practise doing dentistry, do you get remunerated as a standard associate. REI do you take a salary. How does that

[00:36:35] Work. Yes, initially we didn’t and now we do. So now I get paid as an associate, so it works really well. So, you know, you get you get an associate payout, you have a business. You know, as you do these things, you learn that actually you might not want as much of an associate there because it affects you are the sort of things that have an impact to the valuation of your practise. If you were looking to go down that route, you got to do some sort of things that you learn as you go through. And these are things I wouldn’t have known if I’d done it on my own. So yeah, but yeah, it works really well in that sense that I get associate pay, I get dividends if there are any. And yet the stake in the company, of course,

[00:37:20] And at the Top End, you’ve got this whole machine supporting you in terms of who you are and marketing and all of that.

[00:37:27] Exactly. So you kind of do as much of you as you want to do. You know, they give you autonomy in that sense that if you want to do it all, by all means, by all means, do it. You do it your way. But if you you want the most the people that they take on, as I said, a clinical Dental, if they genuinely just want to do the work and they want to, but they want to do it for themselves. So that’s my main focus is at the moment, my own clinical dentistry, but also kind of getting I’ve got younger dentists that work for me and I guess Kahu Instagram thing. I get a little bit of an Instagram following of younger dentists, you know, somebody who’s Instagram superstars. But there’s there’s people that want to know how I’m doing things. And a couple of those guys messaged me say I I’ll be lucky to work there. And you see that I’ll be a nice way of kind of mentoring a couple of people. Associates in the practise, and that’s what I’m doing now, so I’ve got a couple of younger dentists that I’ve set up, know Dropbox folders, we share photos, we share cases. I make sure that I’m always available if they need me to block of time to see a patient with them. If they want to do a case with me, I want to do that because that’s that’s how I spend my time rather than spending it on, you know, all of the other things that you don’t want to really be doing when you’re running a dental practise. I want to spend it on the clinical side and getting others to do the clinical side the way that I think it should be done or the way that I would like for it to be done if it was done on me. So that’s what I’m kind of doing at the moment. The practise is just showing people the ropes in that sense, I guess.

[00:39:04] And so what do you look for in an associate?

[00:39:08] If I was looking for an associate, I don’t I don’t think I have any interest in what your credentials are of your name. Personally, I think those days from my perspective, I think those days have passed. I think we can we can get top quality dentists now that are driven enough to just do things differently and not do things through the academic way of it being done. So first of all, it’s great if you’ve got those things, but if you haven’t got a portfolio to show me, if you haven’t got a picture, if you if you haven’t taken a photo in the right way of doing what I always say, I’m going to plug it here because it makes a difference. Menasche is caused on photography that focussed course, and the way that he styles the photos actually matters massively to me, because if you can take a photo in that way and you care enough to take the photo in that way, even if the work isn’t quite there yet, it shows you’ve got something to get it to that point where it needs to be because you care, you care about it being done in that in that right way. So I want to see that’s what I’ll be looking for fundamentally, is you show me a portfolio of work, show me how you’ve done it. I don’t actually really care if it’s done that that well at that stage because that will come. It depends on the age of the dentist, I guess. But if you show me the hunger for it, you show me the desire for it. Show me that the eye that you can align the photo in the right way, that that sort of stuff I think matters. I don’t know. I’ll make you go my own on that. But it does make a difference.

[00:40:38] I agree with you. I mean, I interviewed a dentist the other day. Well, shall we say, you know, went through the whole application process. I always say, can you send me your three best cases and and just send me some information about what happened? Not not on the clinical side, but on the emotional side. Yeah. So I want to I want to know, can they communicate and B, do they photograph their work well, et et cetera. And and this one one one lady that stood out and she laid them out properly, she’d cropped the images the way you’d expect them to sit side by side, just the basic stuff. Right. And then the emotional story was this lady came to see me and this is what she couldn’t do. This is what she struggled with. This is what she suffered with. And this is the after piece. And for me, totally in agreement with you is that actually I wasn’t really interested on what courses or postgrad education she done. Right. She was able to show off some some really good work, describe it in a way that was very human.

[00:41:43] Yeah, I think absolutely that. And I think I think that’s fundamentally one of the things if you if I’m looking at what there’s where there’s potential for someone is what I’m doing in that sense. But then it comes to I guess it’s always going to be that communication and how they’re going to be speaking to patients. I think if someone’s coming in to say, I want my teeth whitened, the question back from that should be, why do you want your teeth licence? It should always it shouldn’t be OK. This is what we can do is getting to know that patient and putting the time in to understand why they’re in your chair and why they’ve why they’ve come there, what happened in their life for them to want their teeth to be whitens. You know, that’s that I think is important to having that conversation and being able to hold that conversation and take and keeping it very personal to that patient rather than going down the route of this is how it’s done matters quite a lot, I think. And I think that’s that’s I guess that’s kind of like the latter thing and all of that. But it’s it’s I think it’s more than that. It’s just General. General, I guess you can’t call it sales, but it’s just general patient understanding, you know, knowing how to communicate with people. And influencing is what I’m looking for. I think it’s just generally being able to influence people.

[00:43:07] I guess it all comes down to the good old wolf of Wall Street, less of where the guy says, sell me this pen. Right? Yeah. He doesn’t want an answer where you’re talking about, well, you know, this is a ballpoint pen and this is a fountain pen and this shiny silver. And all the rest is more about, you know, why are you in the market for a pen? Why do you need a pen? What benefits would you get out of this? And just learning their motivations in the ways and that is ultimately I know in dentistry, they call it, you know, it’s not sales, but it is sometimes seen as a dirty word.

[00:43:39] And Prav believe that if we’re

[00:43:42] Right on

[00:43:45] The other side of the coin, where you’ve got the dentist jumps into the clinical hair and tries to explain to the patient the full value in a classically I want my teeth whitened old starts showing them syringes and trade and all of that. So even though you’re saying sales, this could just as well be service, you know, understanding patients, understanding motivations and connecting with people as opposed to just treating teeth.

[00:44:17] Yeah, for sure. That is that is 100 percent what it’s about. I think when I’m looking at now even dental practises and what I see is what should be a successful practise. I’m not going to look at other dental practises. I’m going to look at hospitality. I’m going to look at hotels and look at and I think that’s a lot of guys are doing now, Robbie Hughes and all of these that I know which are doing it that way. And but it’s still not enough. I don’t think I think there’s there’s still a huge market, huge gap for other practises to to do the same thing. That’s the best thing

[00:44:48] You could do for your staff in Bromley, is take them for a weekend to an amazing hotel to show an amazing

[00:44:55] Service. I can’t wait to do that because they you know, a lot of them have been to those places. I haven’t seen those sorts of places. It’ll be a pleasure to do that. I think that’s that’s that’s really what would be a lovely thing to do, especially after all of this stuff, because it makes a massive, massive difference, because, you know, I think that’s where the other aspects of you think everyone knows it. But that’s only because you may surround yourself with people that mean, you know, you hang out with people that go to the same places as you or you eat the same restaurants and things like that. So you see that sort of thing all the time. So you think it’s normal, but not enough people have experienced that sort of thing to to be able to deliver it to someone else, you know?

[00:45:38] And, you know, there’s also a kind of person who wants to be of service and a kind of person who thinks it’s demeaning to be you know, this is the kind of person thing, you know, when you said, how do you what do you look for in an associate outside of work? You mentioned some of the clinical stuff. That’s what I would look for is is it the kind of person who takes pride or pleasure, pleasure in being of service to other people?

[00:46:06] Yeah, yeah. It is key, I think, to the point where, you know, as a Dental beauty practises have an element of what a small my practise is, got a very small NHS contract. But if I’m seeing and I haven’t said that I won’t see NHS patients even though I haven’t seen any patient for a long time, because when the NHS patient comes in, I’m giving them that hour appointment, I’m giving forty and I’m doing it in the exact same flow because then that patient sees that level so they may not have experience it. They may again, they may not even be in the restaurant, but you can be the person that delivers it in your dental practise that converted. You know, you don’t have to then go through the the conversation that no one wants to have about this service. And they already see the difference. They already know they’re already kind of they’re like, yeah, OK, I get it. I see I’m presenting in front of them on a big screen with the photos that are dutifully taken, all of this sort of stuff. And, you know, they already they’re already on board. It’s just delivering it, I guess.

[00:47:11] Afterwards you said you can enjoy orthodontics, Invisalign so much. And I see your composite work on online a lot. Is that the kind of work you enjoy the most or is that just good for Instagram, what you enjoy?

[00:47:28] You know, a fallback is that you a lot recently in that I, I would have originally said, you know, it’s quite sexy sounding like you’re saying to people, I’m a cosmetic dentist, but I don’t actually think I am a cosmetic dentist. And that’s not what I do if I’m doing what I do day in, day out is general dentistry. And that is probably because I like doing general dentistry, not because I do like doing the composite stuff. It does the artistic side. That is enjoyable, but I love a root canal. I still do. I still do my own root canal. Generally, I think is what I said is, is that generalist thing? I think that is what is what I really enjoy just covering as many angles as I can, but doing them all well. And, you know, if you can do that, if you can do it all well, then why not write a note saying, I cannot, but I’m aiming to. I think that’s what I would I would love to be able to do. Well, I love to be able to do all right and be that kind general. And that’s probably what I want to be down the line. And that’s why I’ve started implants. And I again, I went full steam with that.

[00:48:38] I Fazila, your your your previous guest, she has been like a best friend to me, the froufrou the last three or four years. However, she was on I listen to her podcasts and I think how she came across on that is is how she is. She’s hot on the sleeve. She will do anything for you, you know, that has helped me massively. So mentoring is is key for any young dentist is find someone that you can have that relationship with physical. It took me under a wing and I went I took a day off work for two years before I bought the practise. I was there every Wednesday. I’m paid as my own choice as to take one day off and just to stand by her. Doing surgery was a great thing to do that that, you know, for any aspects of dentistry that you’re into, if you can find someone that will let you do that, she’d always take that opportunity 100 percent because those are the guys that have been through it. Again, seeing how she speaks to patients. And that it just resonated with me is we have a great understanding with each other. She she trusts me a lot. I think I think she’ll let me do her teeth.

[00:49:47] So, you know, all of this sort of stuff messes. And when you have that relationship with someone and you go with someone that way, whether it’s a friend, whether it’s a mentor or whatever, you know, you’ve got to you’ve got to ride that wave. You’ve got to you’ve got to find someone that you can do that with. But, yeah, dentistry is another thing that I’m trying to add to my bone physical because she’s very cute. She will help you. She will guide you, open all the doors for you. But are you going to make the step? Are you going to make the leap to do the work? But she you know, she’s she’s allowed me to teach the little stuff that I do know on her on our implant course, which is it’s a great course because it’s it’s not easy. There’s always there with infinite knowledge. But it’s good to be also shown the ropes by people that have just done it a couple of years earlier. To you, with her backing behind you, you say she is run by her, but it’s great for us to be able to input the little knowledge we have. Perspective, I think is a good thing.

[00:50:42] Payman, how did you just sort of approach Fazila and say, hey, I want to come and hang out with you every Wednesday or whatever it was, and I’m going to do this for two years or whatever was that? Was that the connexion with your brother or an introduction or.

[00:50:56] I think I said it’s another funny story. You speaks about her with her, about it. She was putting on a lecture. I didn’t want to go. It was a friend of mine that I’d put on the lecture and that she was she was doing I was I’m not that interested in parts of the outcome because, you know, we’re going to marry Shafter. So we just up I did like Charles. Like, oh, this is actually quite interesting. I was and I sat next to her at dinner. And for her, if if she if she sat next to someone, she would always make the effort to talk to you, get to speak to you and be as friendly as she is. So we got talking. Two days later, I signed up to a course and that’s how it all started. But then after that, to get to the point where, you know, she let me see her patients or to let me shadow her next to her patients. We became friends. We I was through her whatever her GDC thing, all this stuff we would be with, I was there for her. I wanted to be there for her. So we were we became good friends, I guess. And as a result of that, we are where we are,

[00:52:05] Right place, right time, serendipity

[00:52:07] And all that sort of thing as well. Again, I say to another thing I say to two other dentists or younger dentists is to expose yourself to as much as you possibly can, because I think she said it in her podcast that you want to listen to where she said that, you know, people do what they can do or what they know about. That’s what the dentist we only provide. We may only provide the care that we can personally deliver. But if you don’t know what is out there and what is possible to do, you’ll be very limited by what you can do, because what you can provide is a drop in the ocean as to what can be provided. So exposing yourself to as much as possible not only brings you contacts, brings you networking, but will also give you more knowledge even if you can’t provide it yourself. You know, there’s some that it can be done. I think that’s a different thing, that some some some sometimes take things like gum grafting and all this sort of perio stuff that I didn’t even know could be done. So I was slapping composite on that. It was like, no, actually, that’s not the right thing to do. You’ve lost gum in that area. Why am I putting composite there? You need gum. So let’s let’s send you to this guy to to do that, because that’s what you actually need say. And that’s, I guess, the the whole general thing. Again, people like Cora do that. People will do that. People like to do that. But it’s you know, it’s exposing yourself to as much as possible. As early as you can see that you’re aware of these things is is very important.

[00:53:42] How did you find. Look, I had this issue when I stopped dentistry, then came back to dentistry, and then when I came back to the industry that we didn’t need to be a dentist, it was I was just doing it because, you know, I was a dentist. Yeah. And I thought, I’m not going to do anything that isn’t to my top of my knowledge, as in as if there was someone better for the job. That other person should be doing that job and as well. But then there’s always someone better than me being a little bleaching, a little bit of it’s a difficult one with a patient.

[00:54:24] It’s a great question. There is always someone that I’d say you’ve kind of just made me think, oh my God, what am I doing? Anything you need to go somewhere, like what is going on? It’s probably I you’re you’re very right. I think definitely do things within your scope that is obviously very important, but not to the point where you limit yourself completely as well. So you get scared of everything. You know, I think that that’s that’s a massive thing as well. I think you’re always going to be a little bit a little bit brave and have the confidence in yourself. And if you don’t have the confidence, then get the confidence by getting the mentors and getting the experience. And, you know, I think my post is if you’re talking about my composite stuff, which I guess is what I guess is still what I’m best, that is pure in the numbers. You know, like I’m quite ashamed to say, I haven’t I haven’t done your course. I haven’t I haven’t done one cause I’ve done one composite course. And I don’t think that’s the right way. But I’ve done numbers. I’ve done a lot of composite work, you know, and that was because I had carries on carries with these patients that I’ve had with the embassy. And I’ve had the time because that’s the other aspect of it, is a lot of these younger dentists don’t have the privilege of the time to spend that day and told how long they can spend on a patient they’re being dictated to in terms of targets. So nothing takes away from having to do the work you’ve got. You’ve got to have done those cases. But I would still I would still send things on, though. I’m composite stuff, probably won’t. But, you know, I’m still not doing that many of my own implants I still get nervous about. I still think that way. More people that can do this better than me restoring them, I’ll do them very well. I do

[00:56:21] A comprehensive research form format, three apps and that sort of thing

[00:56:26] Formats the format. Rehab’s the the Fazila way, which is not which is the better way, which is, you know, the short span bridges, that sort of stuff. And, you know, I know you’re probably going to ask my, my, my clinical mistakes, but, you know, those are the cases that that sort of stuff I’ve noticed happening is those cases where I’ve taken on too much. I’ll take it, you know, and it’s case selection because both of those cases were my mum and my mother in law. They’re both the most by far the most complex cases I’ve ever even attempted. They were done with with Fazila. But a lot of the restorative element I kind of took on myself and Zyda probably laughing at me for doing it. I go and then if you could. But I think it’s one of those things that those cases, the ones that you really learn from this is like, OK, but it’s still doing it. You know, having done that, once I pick the right case because it was on the moment, not going to take me to the easy, at least I hope not. But, you know, those sort of cases, I’ve learnt massive, massive things about just just you know, the best thing about temporaries and stuff like that is that the hand skills from that came from those cases of just being able to to deal with those sorts of things. So you need to do them. You need to do the pick the right people to do them on that aren’t going to go you too many headaches and too many sleepless nights.

[00:58:01] What have been your biggest clinical mistakes?

[00:58:05] Biggest clinical mistakes, I think. So my answer to that question was going to be about it was going to be done, we’ve done we’ve done it all. I’ve put roofs and sinuses cafecito. I’ve just I’ve done you know, I’ve done the whole a patient can’t just decide to swallow on me as I’m like with forty thousand, I’ll be in my Gromit’s and Lingley and then suddenly you just in your seven time loop see the frenulum wrap around this thing. Will what happened that all those nasty things that that have happened

[00:58:40] To this one, something you’ve learnt from a mistake but you know you can help others with.

[00:58:47] Learn from a mistake. I was always is always going to be case champagne, I think is always the key thing for me is always just knowing what your limits are and what you learn from it is getting through it. I think having having done that, having messed that up, what can I take away from this is that we got through it. The patient still OK and assorted. The problem that, you know, you’ve got to if you can’t do it yourself, you’ve got to find someone who can help you do it. And once you get past that situation, then you don’t have to do it right. So that’s what you can take away from it because you’ve done it. You messed it up. You found out how to fix it and you fixed it and now you know how to do so. Carry on. You know that that’s the process. There’s that cycle that we go through every day. I think as young, younger than this, I think that’s that’s what we go for, at least the ones that are doing things. You know, I think the ones that are making any moves or that sort that we have, we’ve made mistakes because we’re brave enough, I guess, to attempt it in the first place. I don’t want a lot of people to go out and start doing things just to try them out now, but do it within your scope. But it’s that that, I think is what I’ve learnt in terms of

[01:00:04] Business Payman any business mistakes.

[01:00:07] You know, not not yet, because that’s because I’m not as experienced yet, I think actually, yes. One thing we have with with a practise like a group like Dental, butI. Is that we bought the practise we took over the next day, the day after that, we had builders in, right, because they had they know the model that they got in. And I know that having looked into this, more people are saying that for the first six months you shouldn’t do anything. You should just learn the business, learn the people that work for you, speak to the people that I’ve come into a practise that was 40 years established, maybe longer. I think we have wait even longer than that. But the people that had been there had been there for 30 odd years. A lot of them. Right. A lot of people have been there for 30 odd years. So you’ve got this new guy come in, come into the place and just destroy it. If these guys were saying that it was like a bereavement, that’s how they described us coming into this practise, because that’s that’s all they know. That’s that’s you know, you’ve come in so that you’ve come into their front room and you’ve just woken up and you’ve just trashed the place and you haven’t even really spoken to them about it. You’ve just come in and done that. So from a business perspective, is management of those people fundamentally is being able to communicate with those guys and be like and reassure them, show that everything’s OK. I don’t think anyone should go that quickly, but that’s how it’s done with NBC because they know how it’s going to work and it does work for them.

[01:01:47] And now we are six months down the line and we’re doing very well as a practise that the staff are getting on board. But we’re still not quite there because you’ve got an inexperienced guy as a manager coming in to deal with people that sometimes almost twice my age. Not quite. But a lot of people have been there for a long, long time, being almost told what to do by someone who they think hasn’t got a clue. So and they might be right. So it’s it’s a case of knowing the people that you’re working with, getting to know those people before you, making any drastic changes before you go in and really understand their concerns, understand what they’re what they’re worried about and address those concerns. I think that’s what I’m a lot more and that’s what I’m supposed to be learning in the role that I’m in as a clinical director. I suppose as Dental future. I mean, I’m more of a management position of managing the clinical aspects of that business. But also I’ve got to be there for all the staff. And that that aspect, I think is is probably what I’ve learnt the most about what I’ve done. And, you know, this actually came from this how much I suppose I’ve listened to this podcast at the time. I think it was Mark Hughes. He said, I’m quitting this podcast, Dental Leaders hearing

[01:03:16] Previous episodes keep coming

[01:03:21] Back in November 2010 when we

[01:03:25] Should citations list at the end of every podcast.

[01:03:30] He said he said that he wished you did an MBA. Right. So I was like, OK, that’s interesting. I’ve always thought about doing an MBA and I’ve just bought a practise. And he said that that would speed things up for him so much. So I was like, OK, the first thing I did, I bought the personal MBA book that I a very good book, recommended highly personal and be a contributor. I mean, it’s really good. But then I also start searching MBAs, and that’s not unless you do a short course, 10 week MBA essentials. And I’m seven weeks into that maths and I’ve just signed on to that

[01:04:07] One, seven weeks of it

[01:04:09] In two weeks. And this is intense.

[01:04:11] This is as a help with the Dental practise.

[01:04:14] So again, last week was the whole leadership management influencing all of that sort of stuff. Then it’s going to go on. Then it goes on to, you know, reading, finance, reading, accountancy, all of these sort of things that are the essential things that you need to. And I don’t I don’t I don’t know. Maybe some people will say you need an MBA is a Dental practise. I don’t think you don’t. But I think it was good to do that and to be in the process of it because I’m just relating everything back to the practise and being at it right at the beginning where I’m just kind of looking at it like, guess this means this, this means this. I can relate this to this. I can go in and start doing this and try this out as made an impact. I think I think that it made me more confident. I think I felt like a bit of an imposter.

[01:04:58] The thing is the thing is, did we as dentists, we think we need to do a course for everything. Yeah. Some of the some of the top business people in the country are corner shop owners and then in the course. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Listen, man, I’m no expert, but business is looking after your customers, looking after your people, looking after your suppliers. That that is the. That’s it. Absolutely. Do you do an MBA? Sure. Do an MBA. Yeah, but but you know, it’s not going to be the answer. Then the answer you’re looking for is Dental. We just think we have to keep doing courses like as if you want to do bone grafting, go do a bone grafting course. You know, when you look look on the high street man, there’s a restaurant. That guy didn’t go on an MBA to run his restaurant.

[01:05:52] It’s all right. So whatever whatever you’re learning, you have to apply it almost immediately.

[01:05:58] But I could see it’s a massive change for you to go from being an associate at your brother’s place, a tiny place like that, to basically the principal at this huge place.

[01:06:10] Yeah, I mean, we need to pay for staff.

[01:06:13] Yeah. What about the practise managers, the practise manager, an incumbent, or is that someone Dental but you’ve imposed.

[01:06:19] Yes, she came, she joined with us basically say yes. Yes. This year we added her. I have to I guess I have I have an existing practise manager that was there before. And so all the

[01:06:32] Staff issues she deals with is all right.

[01:06:35] Yes. I mean, they’ll go through her at times. At times, I think we do it all together. I think it’s going to have a meeting with everyone today, even just to say that I want everything to be done together. This is not just me telling you guys how my vision is for this practise. You’ve been here for this long. You’ve been here for a long time. Me and Sophie, as a person as you have just come in here. I want suggestions from you. I don’t just want problems. I want solutions to those problems. Are you going to give me a if you have a problem with something, I would like to know what your opinion is, how to sort it out, and I’ll give you my opinion on how to sort it out and then we’ll get to some sort of middle ground that we both understand and then we move forward from it. I think that’s how I’m trying to deal with it. And that’s how. Yeah, any staff issues or anything at the moment. I want to try and deal with as we as we go ahead. And these are things that I’m learning, these things that I’ve picked up, that it doesn’t work for me just to tell you this is how it’s going to be done, because that’s not going to make you committed to making any changes. It’s going to make you compliant. It’s going to make you say, OK, but then go away and then actually make a change and do things for the practise, for the benefit of the practise.

[01:07:49] Would you get up to if you got a half a day to yourself? No one I run, yeah,

[01:07:55] That’s my new thing, I guess, like lockdown thing, massive running at the moment. I’ve got a half marathon coming up, training quite intensely for. So that’s if I’m being good. If I’m being not so good, then it’s a different story. It depends on which side, which, you know, what time it is. What what type of day is that we can’t be talking about here or it’s

[01:08:20] Just that

[01:08:25] I think of myself. Yeah. I mean, normally at the moment it’s running in the morning. I live in a lovely place at the moment in lovely area. So, you know, there’s everything’s on my doorstep. I go to games and get a get a coffee and across, you know, I’ve got a nice Italian deli that I might go and get some nice stuff for lunch. Just general things. Now, I guess, you know, I’m enjoying the that side of life a little bit more now, I guess. Slowing things down a bit.

[01:08:55] And a DJ set up already in your house, like in your flat,

[01:08:59] If it’s a depends on what time of day you’re talking about. Again, the decks, the decks on sets up, there’s no enough space. It basically sets up. But people come around at the moment, of course. But you know well, previously, how we would normally do it is that people would have come round and yeah, we’ll get the decks out and some and some drinks out and we’ll have I’m looking forward to getting back to those times, you know, getting getting back to some sort of normality with that

[01:09:28] Prav likes to end it in the same way every time

[01:09:32] Payman seem strange asking Payman.

[01:09:35] And every time you say, is Prekop

[01:09:41] The old

[01:09:44] Legend, it’s your it’s your last day on the planet and you’ve got your your loved ones around you. And what three pieces of wisdom would you share with them?

[01:09:58] Yes, I thought about this one. I think all of these things are things that I would hope that I become more of rather than actually these things that I currently am. I think they’re just things that are important. And one thing that I’m noticing, more moment being comfortable, being uncomfortable is a is a good thing. I’m noticing that you came from running that one that says that that’s one of those things that taught me.

[01:10:22] I got the same one from my personal trainer.

[01:10:25] Oh, yeah, definitely, I think it’s yeah, I think yeah, it relates to a lot of things. I’m noticing that a lot more now. I think I spent a lot of time being comfortable again with the job that I was always given. Kind of kept me happy, just plodding along, doing what I was doing every day until I kind of just made that step to be like, OK, I now want to own my own practise. And it was an uncomfortable thing to do. And I’m uncomfortable every day, but I feel better every day as a result of that. I think that that was quite important. And living in practise, not Dental practises in live life in practise of whatever you’re doing. Never think that whatever you’re doing is the end, is always a process, is always learning, learning more every day. So you never perfecting anything. It’s always practise and always getting better at it that way. One one percent at a time. Right. And the other one that I put was form follows function. That’s one that I think is one that I would like to do more than I currently do. I do things now when I feel like it’s perfect to do them. Rather than starting and seeing how things go, like I guess that’s the whole course thing, right, because it’s like if I’m going to run a business, I need to do an MBA and be perfect at running a business. But it’s very much make a start and see where it takes you. I think that’s what I’m trying to do more of. It’s not natural to me to do that, but I very much think that that’s where people become successful in anything that they do. Mm hmm. And even even to form friendships to whatever, you know, raising a family could have just just do it. Have that baby. Don’t delay. That’s OK.

[01:12:29] And how would you like to be remembered? What would you like to leave behind as your legacy? So Payman was Dental to complete the sentence.

[01:12:41] I think there’s nothing better than being inspirational in some way. I think it’s. Whatever whatever you whatever we’re doing with it is nothing. There’s no bigger compliment. Then having inspired someone else to either do the same thing or to make a move in something. So I think that’s what I would like to achieve, I think I’m not there yet. I think it’s a long way to go to get anywhere near the. But having been inspired by so many throughout my life from, you know, my brothers, from mentors, from whoever, to be able to then be someone that inspires others, I think is will be beautiful.

[01:13:27] Lovely. And finally, she had 30 days left and you had all all your faculties intact, your health, and there were no budgetary constraints or would you be doing in that 30 days?

[01:13:43] I think I would do yeah, I think I think I’ll keep it simple. I’m not I’m not one that feels like I need to go and travel the world and see all of these extra things. I never really been and probably not a good thing, actually. But what I like to do if I’m going away somewhere, I like to be on a beach in a nice restaurant. Beach Club vibe sort of thing, kind of sitting there with my body. Rosie, I think I’m just like a basic bitch. But I think just being in the environment with my friends in the sun, having a good time listening to good music, taking over the decks. Yeah, 100 percent. I think that is that is very much my happy place to be.

[01:14:34] 30 days in the beach with it. Yeah.

[01:14:37] I’m just trying to not save us.

[01:14:41] Twenty four to six days in Formentera

[01:14:45] To come up with this. Yeah, I think it’s just I mean, the main point of that, though, is not the environment. Whatever it is, the people that I’ve had those memories with and spent time with, you know, I have a wife that had been with for 16 years. We’ve grown up together from me to spend that time, continue to spend that time with her would be a blessing and to be around the people that we have, the friends that we share. And all of that is in the family that we have to be so lucky to have would be, would be, would be ideal.

[01:15:27] As lovely man. Beautiful. It’s been a real pleasure having you, buddy. It’s been a long time coming.

[01:15:34] Thank you.

[01:15:38] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with Emerging Leaders Street. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

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