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Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the dates. [00:00:25] Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Aditi Bhalla onto the podcast. Aditi [00:00:55] is a specialist prosthodontist who is no longer working because [00:01:00] of medical concerns we’ll get into. But at the same time, a [00:01:05] intuitive, integrative psychotherapist, life coach, um, [00:01:10] healing through meditation, yoga. I see so many things you do, [00:01:15] I don’t even understand some of it. So massive pleasure to have you.

Aditi Bhalla: Thank you. Thank you [00:01:20] so much for having me. I’m really excited for the conversation ahead.

Payman Langroudi: It feels like you’ve done podcasts before, have you?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. [00:01:25] Have you just just like a couple? Not yeah. Not in person. I was just. [00:01:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Aditi Bhalla: Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So this is this is good. It’s nice to have the in-person interaction [00:01:35] and. Yeah, it’s always better.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me let’s let’s just dive straight in and [00:01:40] talk about, uh, kind of a typical situation of [00:01:45] a person, let’s call it stuck for whatever reason. Let’s [00:01:50] talk about what is what do you come across in our profession? Is it only dentists, by the way, [00:01:55] that you. Yes.

Aditi Bhalla: So also I work with some bankers and [00:02:00] medics, but it’s similar kind of theme. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Plastic dentists anyway. Yeah. [00:02:05] So you’re a dentist? I’m a dentist. A dentist is find themselves in a situation. [00:02:10] What kinds of situations are we talking when it comes to, you know, the kind of patients, the kind of [00:02:15] people you’re seeing?

Aditi Bhalla: The kind of people I’m seeing are mainly they come to me saying, well, [00:02:20] I’ve done everything I needed to and I’ve ticked all the boxes, but I still feel lost, [00:02:25] I feel unhappy, I feel anxious, I can’t sleep at night, I’m [00:02:30] lost. I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know where life is going and I need help. I feel like [00:02:35] nothing is moving forward. Nothing’s bringing me joy.

Payman Langroudi: Even though on paper everything looks [00:02:40] okay.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So is it more like that than. Oh, I’ve got these on paper problems also [00:02:45] sometimes.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, they, they also sort of co-exist. Sort of. But yeah, [00:02:50] mainly it comes across as that, you know I don’t know I don’t know where life is going. Okay. [00:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: And then what is your central thesis on this subject like? Why? What has caused [00:03:00] this in this person? Seemingly high flyer. What has happened to make [00:03:05] them feel this way? I think in general, of course. Different for each person.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, different for each [00:03:10] person. But generally I think there’s a theme. We’re so busy ticking boxes [00:03:15] achieving, achieving, achieving. Even if you see people who enter dentistry, they’re all they’ve done really [00:03:20] well in.

Payman Langroudi: School.

Aditi Bhalla: Already. Yeah. Already high achievers. You know it’s just going so there’s with [00:03:25] everything there’s going to be a plateau right. You reach that and you start to question life. You start to [00:03:30] question.

Payman Langroudi: Is this it?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Is this it? Like, did I work so hard to just this. [00:03:35] And then there’s this constant worry about the materialistic things you know. So yeah [00:03:40] there’s that plateau point you reach and you [00:03:45] feel like you’re lost. You just don’t know. You were promised this happiness. [00:03:50] I say, yeah, but where is it? Yeah. And that’s the question that I mainly come across. And I [00:03:55] also see a bit of perfectionism.

Payman Langroudi: Over perfectionism.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Yeah. Always.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:04:00] within us. It’s within us. The kind of person who ends up becoming a dentist.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. Perfectionism [00:04:05] is I feel like it’s a criteria they look for. But don’t tell us.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:04:10] bet. I mean, you studied in India. Yes. I bet getting into dental school in India [00:04:15] is a nightmare. Like you have to be on top of your everything. Yeah. Top of your class and.

Aditi Bhalla: Top of your class. [00:04:20] Top of everything. You have to give this this central exam where you have to get a really high score to be [00:04:25] get chosen into dental school.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean to be the psychotherapist in this, in this [00:04:30] situation, but. But were you always this high achiever since day [00:04:35] dot or do you remember, like in your childhood, a moment like something some some sort of catalyst [00:04:40] that said, now you’re the brainy kid.

Aditi Bhalla: Like, I think between [00:04:45] me and my brother, I was always labelled a brainy kid. So I had to sort of keep proving myself.

Payman Langroudi: Keep that [00:04:50] going. Yeah. And that itself is a source of stress, right?

Aditi Bhalla: Like, I had to keep up to that reputation, [00:04:55] whereas I feel like my brother was just let. You know, let.

Payman Langroudi: Off like the sporty kid or whatever. The funny kid [00:05:00] or.

Aditi Bhalla: The naughty.

Payman Langroudi: Kid, like.

Aditi Bhalla: Nothing’s coming out. But actually he’s doing he’s doing really, really [00:05:05] well. And I’m just like. Why did I work?

Payman Langroudi: So have you got kids?

Aditi Bhalla: I’ve got I’ve got a little one. I’ve got [00:05:10] a four year old boy. Yeah, just the one.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t recognise it yet. But what happens with [00:05:15] when you have 2 or 3 or however? I don’t know what I noticed here is the let’s say [00:05:20] the four year old starts reading six months ahead of his class because you [00:05:25] keep on getting him to read or adding or multiplying or whatever. Yeah, and he does. He does quite well. [00:05:30] Right. Because you kind of and then you think, oh, you’re really clever. Yeah. And then he like you said, he wants [00:05:35] to live up to that now. So he tries a bit harder to please you and you put him into the clever box. [00:05:40] Yeah. Second one comes along. Clever is taken. Yes. Yeah. Now what tends to happen is [00:05:45] a parent is you look out for something other than clever in this one, and funny or [00:05:50] sporty or naughty or whatever comes up and you’re going to put that one put, put that into [00:05:55] that sort of, um, pigeonhole. Yeah. And apparently a third one comes [00:06:00] along and apparently a billionaires are disproportionately the [00:06:05] fourth kid. Wow. Because the first three obvious things are taken and they have to be very, like, creative [00:06:10] to take a different pigeonhole, you know, one that’s they’re going to be comfortable being [00:06:15] an outsider and still achieving. Yeah. So do you recognise [00:06:20] literally that seven year old EDT, um, in your 27 [00:06:25] year old like, like wanting to be the best in dental school, the best and not thinking [00:06:30] outside of that, like you’re getting all your kudos from that. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: I mean, even at [00:06:35] seven years old, I was a very, very creative. I was the school. I was the school captain. I [00:06:40] was the leader of my group. I was playing harmonium. I was in every everything [00:06:45] that was going on, I was there, I was a part of it. I was winning it. I was doing it. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: So was your first knock back the wrist situation or did you have others?

Aditi Bhalla: No, I’ve [00:06:55] had others in school. I think when we moved to Dubai, uh, it [00:07:00] was a massive move. I’d left all my friends behind. And it was a new school. New everything. Uh, [00:07:05] I did really poorly in one of my physics tests, and that was really the disappointment. [00:07:10] Not just what I felt, but what I saw in my parents eyes. Oh, I think that that [00:07:15] what really hit me like, oh, my God, like, what is going on? So yeah, [00:07:20] I think that that really hit me. Uh, and in similar thing happened [00:07:25] at uni when I was doing anatomy.

Payman Langroudi: And did you you [00:07:30] grew up in Dubai until university or before. Did you go back to India before [00:07:35] finishing school?

Aditi Bhalla: Before finishing school? Uh, no. So I [00:07:40] did my so for my high school from my high school, uh, point, I moved to Dubai.

Payman Langroudi: So then at the end, why didn’t [00:07:45] you go to university somewhere else other than India? Why? Why choose India? I think you could have gone somewhere [00:07:50] else.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, I could have. Uh, but my parents kind of made that decision for me. [00:07:55] But also, you know, you’re going away to a completely different country. You want to go back to the known, [00:08:00] and you want to be in a city where there are people around you. So if in case something happens, you can always fall back [00:08:05] on for help. And I think that was the reason why India was always [00:08:10] the point of choice.

Payman Langroudi: And then do you think you were going to specialise all along?

Aditi Bhalla: No.

Payman Langroudi: When [00:08:15] did you decide to do that? Why did you decide to do that?

Aditi Bhalla: I think I decided to do that after, [00:08:20] uh, after obviously finishing. When I was thinking for, thinking at, looking at career [00:08:25] paths, like, what do I want to do? Uh, almost everybody. Because, again, all high achievers, [00:08:30] they go on to doing specialist training in India. Yeah, yeah. So I said, right, this is what I need to do. [00:08:35] Uh, but then, yeah, prosthodontics sort of just came along. [00:08:40] It wasn’t my first choice. It was, however, pointed out to me by my [00:08:45] professors, by my mentors that I’m really good at this. And when I went into practice, I [00:08:50] did see that this naturally came to me. Uh, it was something that came easy to me. Verses, [00:08:55] verses all the, all the other things. So I just started applying and I got [00:09:00] in and. Yeah, that’s that’s how special.

Payman Langroudi: That was.

Aditi Bhalla: Here. That was here. Yeah. At [00:09:05] schmul and, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Ambitious, ambitious person. You want to go [00:09:10] and now you want to go and specialise in the UK? Yeah. Did you consider America?

Aditi Bhalla: I [00:09:15] didn’t, because the plan was never to, you know, people who moved to America generally wanted. Yeah, they want to stay [00:09:20] there. Whereas my plan was never to stay. Stay in the UK or even.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Because you loved India so much. [00:09:25]

Aditi Bhalla: Well, no, because I wanted to go and live in Dubai with, you know, be around my family. [00:09:30] Yes. They were still settled there. Uh, and. Yeah. Working in Dubai.

Payman Langroudi: You met your husband. Your [00:09:35] current husband?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. Yes, I met my husband and we decided to. He’s also from [00:09:40] India and he had already done all of his his exams and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So specialist.

Aditi Bhalla: To. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: Know No. No implant.

Aditi Bhalla: The implant guy. And, um. Yeah. So [00:09:50] I decided I’m gonna stay back, stay here, give my exams. So I did my [00:09:55] first, uh, Em pros, and then I did my. So I went [00:10:00] the other way. Other way.

Payman Langroudi: Combined and combined teaching and practice [00:10:05] and motherhood. Yes.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. So I was lecturing for Schmuhl. I [00:10:10] was also lecturing for Health Education England, uh, teaching occlusion and toothwear and. [00:10:15] Yeah, and and motherhood and also.

Payman Langroudi: So did you hit this same. [00:10:20] Is this all it is? You know, that same empty feeling that we’re talking about our patients, [00:10:25] our particular dentists. Were you that person?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes, I definitely hit that.

Payman Langroudi: Talk [00:10:30] me through it. Like what was what was going through your like feeling. What were you feeling? [00:10:35] Is this all there is? What’s wrong with what there was? You were specialist. You’re [00:10:40] teaching husband, child. What was the thing that was missing?

Aditi Bhalla: It just from from [00:10:45] within. Internally.

Payman Langroudi: It just.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. It was just that feeling like the life [00:10:50] has to be something more. Like I’ve done everything that was asked of me. I’ve [00:10:55] achieved, achieved, achieved. Yeah. And you know, there’s this, this illusion of happiness. Like, [00:11:00] where is it? You know, where, like, I don’t see it. I’m hustling every day. I’m [00:11:05] working really hard. And this feels very hard. It feels very stressful. So where [00:11:10] is it? And I did have I did have an incident in 2018 where I [00:11:15] did break down in the surgery. It was just tears and I could not understand it. [00:11:20] And I upon reflection, yeah, it was just that feeling that that [00:11:25] I was lost as well. I had also reached a plateau and I also I needed help. [00:11:30] Um, so that’s that’s what I did. And this is why all [00:11:35] of the spiritual side, all of the other training came about because it was me, again, [00:11:40] the perfectionist in me. I wanted to learn it all. I wanted to know it all.

Payman Langroudi: Were you a spiritual [00:11:45] kind of person before all this or not?

Aditi Bhalla: Not at.

Payman Langroudi: All. So interesting.

Aditi Bhalla: Not at all.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so interesting, isn’t it?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. [00:11:50] Not at all. But my mum is very spiritual. She always did. [00:11:55] She always talked about angels and just believing. And she would always do, like, [00:12:00] you know, a little bit of healing on her. She wouldn’t call it that. But, you know, it was always like, oh mum will mum [00:12:05] will heal it kind of a thing. So when, um, when I did feel low [00:12:10] when I went through that phase in 2018 and, and of course my first point of contact was go to [00:12:15] the GP, I’ve got to fix this. You know, my scientific brain saying there’s got to be a solution [00:12:20] where the solution was a prescription and I didn’t I didn’t want just that, [00:12:25] you know, I wanted I needed more. And so I said, right, I’m going to look at other things, which [00:12:30] I did. And it just started with a simple, uh, Reiki healing session. Um, [00:12:35] not very mainstream, but it was kind of like, I’m willing to try everything [00:12:40] right now because I want to feel better, I want to I want to look for this happiness. And [00:12:45] I started meditating. I started going back to my roots. We used to do yoga in school, so I [00:12:50] started connecting back with it and I started to get better, feel better. And [00:12:55] that’s where that’s what opened the doors to spirituality. Uh, I started.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:13:00] got a family member, one of my family. Super brain, absolute super brain, but cleverest [00:13:05] guy I know. Yeah, of all the people I’ve met and the high achiever, [00:13:10] you know, he was one of these guys. He was on a he was on a plane. More than it’s legal for pilots [00:13:15] to be on a plane because it was just Monday in Frankfurt, Tuesday in Dubai, Wednesday in London like that. [00:13:20] Yeah. And then he got ill. Yeah. And he ended up in hospital for, I [00:13:25] don’t know, eight weeks or something. And then he quit his job and [00:13:30] he became super spiritual. And before that he was super scientific. He had a PhD [00:13:35] in mechanical engineering and all that super spiritual after that. The. And [00:13:40] it sounds like you went through a similar pathway.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. And to be honest, there’s so many [00:13:45] of us out there, you know, bankers, lawyers, all of them achieve done, done it all. And then suddenly [00:13:50] something takes in you just like, right, what is going on? You question. And [00:13:55] yes, that’s that’s exactly what happened with me.

Payman Langroudi: And so this toolkit that you kind of offer [00:14:00] your clients and that you’ve probably developed for yourself. Right. Is it is it something [00:14:05] along? I’ve told this story before. Um, I had one of those, uh, do you remember back [00:14:10] in the day to one a CD multi changer? Yes. Yeah, I had six CDs [00:14:15] in it. And one day something happened. It broke. And only those six CDs. I couldn’t take it out anymore. [00:14:20] It was only those six. And at the time I was driving all over the country for enlightened, [00:14:25] trying to see people. And so I only had these. So I listened to one of the six [00:14:30] was one CD of Anthony Robbins, Tony Robbins. Yeah, [00:14:35] that one I listened to maybe 100 times because I listened to everything. That’s all I [00:14:40] had. Yeah. And it was. It was the. It was the five questions you should ask yourself [00:14:45] when you’re in overwhelm. And that one lesson stuck [00:14:50] with me. The rest of the other 19 CDs. I don’t know what happened because I listened to that one. So. But is that what we’re [00:14:55] talking? Is that. Is that when you say toolkit? Yeah. If I’m in overwhelm, what do I do? [00:15:00]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So is that it? Is that the kind of thing we’re talking.

Aditi Bhalla: Kind of thing? Yes. But it’s a [00:15:05] wary because of my varied, you know, training. Yeah. I think I’ve sort of like, combined [00:15:10] and like.

Payman Langroudi: Different.

Aditi Bhalla: Things. Yeah. Yeah. So it could be anything from like imagery or [00:15:15] breathing or questioning yourself, you know, different things for different situation. I don’t say [00:15:20] one size fits all. And even for me, in my own practice, I would say that, you know, when I feel [00:15:25] in, oh, well, not one thing will fit on all the days. It would be different things. So yeah, that’s that’s [00:15:30] kind of the thing I’m talking about and I’m really focussed on prevention. I really, [00:15:35] you know, I really believe that we’re so focussed on preventing oral disease for our patients, but we’ve not [00:15:40] considered prevention of burnout.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re making lots of good points here. Don’t wait till you’re on [00:15:45] the edge of, you know, brink of of your life before trying to address these things. Right.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. [00:15:50] Just, you know, there are ways we can prevent things. There are ways you, you know, things [00:15:55] we can put in place that that will not let you, that will let you enjoy the career that you [00:16:00] worked so hard for. You’ve studied so hard for. And you know you can keep going. It’s sustainable [00:16:05] growth. It’s sustainable success. That’s what you want to aim for.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in mental health in general, [00:16:10] right. There’s there’s lots of different sort of, I don’t know, niches. I guess it’s a bit like dentistry. [00:16:15] Right. You’ve got you’ve got ortho, you’ve got and one, one that seems to be [00:16:20] keep coming up. And I see it all over your content is this notion of like I’m not enough kind [00:16:25] of thing or, you know, be kinder to yourself kind of thing. Yeah. Which [00:16:30] is very important. Yeah. But I feel like I’ve got the opposite problem too. [00:16:35] Kind to myself and in a way, like, does that mean you’re not the right healer [00:16:40] for me? You know, like, it’s kind of an interesting thing. Is there another guy who’s, like, focussed on [00:16:45] my issues?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. I mean, well, yes and no.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:16:50] the way I saw your content, it almost looks like it’s a pandemic of not being kind enough to yourself. [00:16:55] Yeah. And is it that a woman thing.

Aditi Bhalla: Or not being. Uh. [00:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: Well, because women are projecting perfection like too much.

Aditi Bhalla: I think [00:17:05] men men are just not, you know, you’re expected to come out of university, get a job, provide for your [00:17:10] families, and then you’re done. Whereas for a woman, it’s not just a modern woman, it’s not just the [00:17:15] career, but it’s also the home, the motherhood, you know, everything else. [00:17:20] You’ve got to be good at everything. And I think that does lead to a lot of.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:17:25] a there’s a background stress. And I guess you’re saying there’s like a cumulative stress that [00:17:30] you’re not really fully onto until it gets you.

Aditi Bhalla: And it gets to you.

Payman Langroudi: Because I [00:17:35] sit in a cafe and I see four women having coffee together, and they all look so happy [00:17:40] and perfect together. And and then four guys sitting there all sort of looking. [00:17:45] And I reflect on that question of like, what it is to be a woman. You have to look perfect. Yes. [00:17:50]

Aditi Bhalla: You’ve got to have everything perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise what? Otherwise you’re not a good woman like you. [00:17:55]

Aditi Bhalla: Otherwise you’re just people just have this fear of judgement. This fear of [00:18:00] I have somehow failed in life by not doing the things I was meant [00:18:05] to be doing, and I made, I made this really funny, funny thing where, you [00:18:10] know, as, as an Indian, you’re supposed to make rotis, you know, they’re meant to be round. Because if they’re not [00:18:15] round, they’re not you cannot eat them. It’s almost like they’re inedible.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Aditi Bhalla: Right? So [00:18:20] it’s like, why do I why do my rotis have to be round? Why can’t they be a map [00:18:25] shape? They’re still a roti. You’re still eating them. It’s they’re you know, they’re nutritious. So it’s about [00:18:30] basic things. It starts from a very young age that it’s got to be all in order. The bed sheets have [00:18:35] got to be, you know, all done. Everything has to be done in an orderly way. I don’t [00:18:40] remember seeing, you know, any man around me being taught similar things. So I think the messaging [00:18:45] starts very starts out very differently. Yeah. You’re right. Even when you’re growing up. [00:18:50] So I don’t know whether it’s it’s only a woman thing. I think men go through it a little bit as well. [00:18:55] It’s just that they’re not allowed to maybe not given permission enough to talk about it, to express [00:19:00] it. Um, and but I think women sort of are more, you [00:19:05] know, they’re more into their emotions. They talk, they like to talk about. And I think that’s where it comes across. Yeah. [00:19:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then this happiness thing that you’re saying, um, there’s a lot of [00:19:15] confusion around happiness. Even myself, I think I was 45 before I worked out that [00:19:20] there’s a difference between happiness and pleasure. Yeah. You know, and now [00:19:25] I feel like happy. I’m not even chasing happiness anymore. Like I used to [00:19:30] think happiness was the thing, and I was chasing it through pleasure and joy. And now I feel like. [00:19:35] And some things presented to me, whether it’s anything a business or whatever, I [00:19:40] kind of start measuring it in peace terms, like, is this going to add [00:19:45] to peace or is it going to take away from peace? And sometimes it works in mysterious ways, right? Because [00:19:50] there’s a product I really want to do. And if I don’t do it, I’m not going to be at peace. [00:19:55] You know, like, think of it. And those are the only ones that I’m going to now look at. I’m not going [00:20:00] to look at anything else. Only the ones that that compelling. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Because they’re kind of [00:20:05] bringing you joy on the journey because you’re looking from what I’m hearing is that you’re seeking joy in [00:20:10] your journey. And I feel like that’s what happiness is all about. It’s not an end destination. [00:20:15] It’s not what you’re going to get to. It’s what you’re going to receive while you’re on this journey [00:20:20] of life. You know, even when you’re doing dentistry, you’re not going to find happiness in that piece of paper [00:20:25] you get at the end of five years. It’s everything that you’ve done in those five years. But this is not [00:20:30] something that’s talked about mainstream. So I think what you’re talking exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And is [00:20:35] are you linking somehow the compassion you have for your patient with the compassion you have for yourself and your [00:20:40] team?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Because the type of person we’re good with patients, but [00:20:45] we don’t extend that to ourselves and our teams.

Aditi Bhalla: No, we don’t even talk about it. Forget extending [00:20:50] it. We’re only about patient care. Patient care, patient care. You’re just pouring out, out, out. [00:20:55] But what’s going to happen is you’re going to you’re going to, you know, be left with this empty cup. You’re [00:21:00] going to feel depleted because there’s only so much you can put out. You’ve got to fill in your own cup [00:21:05] as well. And, you know, once you do that, of course patient care is going to get better. Of course, working [00:21:10] with your staff is going to feel amazing because you’ve taken taken that [00:21:15] time to fill your own cup. You know, simple example when we go [00:21:20] on a flight, what do they say? Put on your own mask first. It’s kind of like that. Yeah, you’ve got to. [00:21:25] Also, it’s not selfish. And we’re taught that it’s a bit selfish taking time out for yourself. You [00:21:30] feel all of the shame, the guilt. But it’s not. You’ve got to take care of your own self [00:21:35] first before you can actually care for your patients, for your for your team, for your family members. [00:21:40] And it’s absolutely essential. And in when I talk about compassion, [00:21:45] it flows in three ways. We’re so good. You know, in giving compassion to others. [00:21:50] We’re not good at receiving it from others because we get a bit like, ooh, you know, you know, [00:21:55] our body sort of the mood. It’s like, whoa, whoa, what just happened? Yeah. Uh, [00:22:00] and our our compassion to ourselves that is non-existent. It’s not talked about. It’s [00:22:05] not taught to us. It’s almost. Yeah, a selfish notion. So that [00:22:10] that’s that’s the kind of compassion I’m talking about, that it flows in all three ways.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:22:15] you’re saying it’s similar skills. The skills we have already just need to apply it to ourselves. [00:22:20] Yes. It’s interesting. It’s very interesting idea. Yeah. So how about the team? [00:22:25] Give me an example of that.

Aditi Bhalla: How it would flow to your flow to your team.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:22:30] one of my bugbears. Yeah, that dentistry’s gotten a lot better for patients [00:22:35] over the years. Like I stopped practising 2012, but you [00:22:40] know, from 1995 till 2025, these this 30 [00:22:45] years. Yeah. Then she’s gotten really good for the patient, you know, painless scanners. [00:22:50] Everything’s beautiful. Clean coffee, all of that. Um, it’s [00:22:55] gotten pretty decently well for dentists as well. Yeah. You know, cosmetic [00:23:00] dentistry wants dentistry. Instagram. What that’s [00:23:05] done to dentistry. It’s not every every part of life hasn’t gone up in the same way. Visual [00:23:10] stuff like food and dentistry and art and dancing, those things have really taken. So. But [00:23:15] for the for the team hasn’t really changed in 30 [00:23:20] years. And dental practices tend to be hierarchical Cool institutions. [00:23:25] Yeah. And I’ve worked in some practices where, [00:23:30] you know, there’s two distinct teams going on. You know, it’s her and her fans [00:23:35] and and you know, the it can be working in a practice can be [00:23:40] super tough. Nurses for me the the most important people [00:23:45] in the practice and yet the least in the hierarchy, the lowest in the hierarchy. [00:23:50] Yeah. Give me some practice management team issues where this sort [00:23:55] of thinking relates.

Aditi Bhalla: I think the first thing to really [00:24:00] highlight is, you know, that we’re all human beings. We’ve got to come, you know, you’ve got to just [00:24:05] I absolutely dislike this hierarchy. Yeah. Because when I worked with my [00:24:10] nurse and I saw her as a human being, saw her problems as my problems, and I could address [00:24:15] them. There’s an equality. And then things flow really well. Yeah. And it’s it almost [00:24:20] comes down to not everything is business. Yes. Business is really important, but it [00:24:25] can’t work without people. So if you can’t, you know, bring in that humanness. If you cannot [00:24:30] bring in that, that that basic level of love and respect, you know, that mutuality [00:24:35] between your team members, there’s going to be friction, there’s going to [00:24:40] be resentment, and everyone’s going to feel guilty. Everyone’s going [00:24:45] to feel the shame and the perfectionism. It just keeps going on because you’re expecting everyone to operate [00:24:50] at a machine level. Well guess what? We’re not machines. We’re humans. We come with a backstory. [00:24:55] We come with, we come with no manual. So every day is going to be [00:25:00] different. And it’s all about coming down to that basic level of understanding. [00:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And look, so two humans are in a room working together. Yeah. [00:25:10] There’s a hierarchy. To the extent that there are some things that this human can ask [00:25:15] for, but there are some things that a nurse can say to you that you’re going to have to do as the dentist. [00:25:20] Many things. Yeah, many, many things. And so the idea [00:25:25] that I tell you what to do is demeaning, [00:25:30] number one. But but number two, you know, we know dentists commit suicide more than [00:25:35] many other professions, take their own lives, more than many other professions. And [00:25:40] me and Ryan had been looking at that and saying, why? Why? And you can say stuff like GDC and all [00:25:45] that. Yeah, but it’s been going on for 100 years. Yeah, yeah, 100 years ago, dentists were killing themselves [00:25:50] more than other professionals as well. Yeah. So what is it? So we [00:25:55] know it’s stressful when the patient’s stressed. We know all that. But one thing that I’ve thought all [00:26:00] the time is, as a dentist, you’re in this room with this nurse. Yeah. If relations between [00:26:05] you and the nurse are. Yeah. That’s. Yeah. That’s your whole life. [00:26:10]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Gone sour. Yeah. Your working life is sour now. Yeah. Doesn’t matter what happened [00:26:15] with the patient. You’ve got this and that can really get to someone can.

Aditi Bhalla: Affect you so much. And it’s [00:26:20] also putting on that, having to put on that mask every single day, having to be this [00:26:25] dentist persona.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. On show, on show.

Aditi Bhalla: Even when you are [00:26:30] outside, whether whether you’re a parent attending a, you know, your child’s school, you’re still the dentist, [00:26:35] you’re always having to wear this mask even when you know, for example, when I go back to India, [00:26:40] I actually anyone new, I don’t tell them what I do for a living because you’re like, well, oh, dentist, you [00:26:45] know, there’s suddenly this persona created about you and that’s what you’ve got to live up to. There’s so much pressure. [00:26:50] And as you said rightly, like, I feel like working with a nurse or even [00:26:55] with it’s like a marriage. Yeah. If it’s not working, if it’s toxic, you know, basically [00:27:00] you’re going to have the stress, you’re going to feel it. And you do spend a lot more time with your nurse [00:27:05] than you do with your with your partner, your husband, your wife. So it’s just so important to make, [00:27:10] you know, make take time and make that effort to have a good relationship with them [00:27:15] and just treat them. Just treat them how you want to be treated. Do you do you need their help? Well, [00:27:20] they need their help too. If you know if you’re running late, get up. Just help tidy up. It’s [00:27:25] not going to take a lot. They might do the same for you. They might, you know, type some notes. [00:27:30] They might support you in some way in the future. It’s not it’s I’m not saying it’s a give and take, but also [00:27:35] the give and take just automatically happens once you come at the same level. [00:27:40]

Payman Langroudi: I was so surprised that the nurses used to say to me that [00:27:45] not every dentist says thank you at the end. At the end of the day.

Aditi Bhalla: I find that surprising.

Payman Langroudi: End of the day. [00:27:50] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, I find that really surprising. Crazy, [00:27:55] man.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Crazy. I’m really surprised about that. Really surprised. Maybe. Maybe that was back then. Maybe now things are a bit [00:28:00] more.

Aditi Bhalla: No, I feel now it’s the older nurses complain that the the [00:28:05] newer dentists are even, you know, they’re living a very different, different life. [00:28:10] They’re living a very uh, they come in and they just want to do the dentistry and leave, whereas [00:28:15] it’s all about the team. I think dentistry is team work. Yeah, you’ve got to involve your [00:28:20] team. You’ve got to meet them where they’re at and work as a team. Otherwise it’s not going to work for you. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go through some of the tools. Sure. So meditation. Let’s start with meditation. [00:28:30] In my limited knowledge of meditation, I’ll tell you what I’ve done in meditation. [00:28:35] Yeah, I’ve done a few guided meditations off my phone. Yeah. Where I felt like [00:28:40] I was meditating. Was in a in a tank. Do you know about those? A sensory deprivation [00:28:45] tank? Yeah. It’s basically, it’s completely dark. The water’s at body temperature. It’s salty. So you float [00:28:50] around in that tank. That one hour. And what did I get from it? [00:28:55] The notion that I am different to my body [00:29:00] and you know, my circumstance. There is an I outside of the [00:29:05] everyday. And the person breathing. That person. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. [00:29:10] It gave you that space to just be. Yeah. That’s what it sounds like. You just not have any [00:29:15] Responsibilities in that moment or any to do lists. It was just.

Payman Langroudi: And, [00:29:20] you know, in the tank. Yeah. Because all the reason I keep pointing to the tank is, is because [00:29:25] I’m sure someone who’s a proper meditator, who’s done it properly and studied it, gets to this state. I didn’t [00:29:30] know if I was upside down this way, around that way around it just just just just being. Yeah, [00:29:35] yeah. And why is it that that gives you space? Because [00:29:40] we don’t we’re not aware of that day to day. Is that right?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Because we’re [00:29:45] so connected to everything. Look at how many notifications that pop up on your screen.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I sleep with headphones [00:29:50] on.

Aditi Bhalla: You do?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: So, you know, you’re connected and everyone [00:29:55] is just non-stop on the go. Just connected. Connected, connected. It’s too much connection [00:30:00] we don’t need we need a bit of isolation as well. We need a bit of connection with [00:30:05] ourselves. We’re connected outside, but we’re not connected.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never got myself to this [00:30:10] level. But people who do do it well, they say, oh, then the problem comes along and you put the problem [00:30:15] in its place.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You see it? Yeah. You see what it is, and [00:30:20] you push it to its place. Is that. Is that correct? Is that what meditation does eventually? Because I haven’t [00:30:25] got that. Well.

Aditi Bhalla: Well that’s that’s that I would say that’s the pro level.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:30:30] really? Okay.

Aditi Bhalla: At the beginner level, you know, everyone says, oh, meditation [00:30:35] is all about emptying your mind, your thoughts. Uh, well, that’s not what it’s about. The [00:30:40] thoughts are going to come because that’s how your brains have developed. It’s all about observing [00:30:45] them. It’s it’s not about action, just observation. So if [00:30:50] suppose a thought comes. Uh oh. I’ve got to go to Tesco to buy milk. Okay, [00:30:55] but don’t now when you’re meditating, start to plan that. Oh, let me do [00:31:00] this at 3 p.m. tomorrow after work, because then you’ve disconnected with the whole [00:31:05] point of the exercise. So it’s about being here right now. Whatever [00:31:10] thoughts coming, whatever feelings are coming, whatever emotion. Just being. That’s. That’s all it’s all about. [00:31:15]

Payman Langroudi: And the living in the moment kind of power of now kind of stuff too, [00:31:20] right.

Aditi Bhalla: Power of now. And I think the reason we say that use your five senses because it gives people [00:31:25] something tangible that. Right. Okay. Now but what do I do in the now because we’re so used to doing. [00:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: Like feel the flow, feel the seat, the way of connecting to now.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes, yes. So how [00:31:35] do how do I do this. So just to make it more tangible, use your five senses. [00:31:40] You know, you know, as you said, you feel the feet, feel your chair, sense [00:31:45] the smells around you, connect to your breath.

Payman Langroudi: And so if I do want to get into [00:31:50] it, I don’t want to if I wanted to get into meditation, what should I do?

Aditi Bhalla: Well, as [00:31:55] you said, you already kind of doing it. You pick up the phone. Yeah, you can pick up. There are so many guided [00:32:00] meditations out there. Uh, you can pick up anyone. But the easiest meditation [00:32:05] to do for a beginner level is do a body scan. Yeah, you don’t even need to listen [00:32:10] to anything if you can just switch off your phone and just start to observe the feelings [00:32:15] that you’re having in every part of your body. So start from your toe moving systematically [00:32:20] upwards all to your head, and that should get you in that state of meditation. So [00:32:25] that’s the easiest way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Breathwork. We’ve had a breathwork coach on, on the other [00:32:30] podcast, and I found it very interesting that the exercises were lovely, [00:32:35] lovely, all I can. The best way I can describe it just felt great. Yeah. Tell [00:32:40] me more. Anything else about breathwork? I mean, is it why? When do I do breathwork? Is it a daily practice? [00:32:45] Is it something you do only when you’re in a situation? Or what do you do about what? Tell me about breathwork. [00:32:50]

Aditi Bhalla: So breathwork again nothing. Nothing complex. I like to make things very simple [00:32:55] and very like I want to get to it right now. You can do it anywhere and obviously [00:33:00] doing it once a day is amazing. But I don’t like to put structures in place. So [00:33:05] if you have time in the morning, do it in the morning. But certain practices practices are better in the morning, so did not [00:33:10] better in the evening. So you pick the time because it’s your practice. You can. [00:33:15] There are breathwork practices that you can do during the day as well. So say suppose [00:33:20] during the day you’re having a really stressful morning. You’re running late. The easiest breathwork [00:33:25] the easiest one is just see where you are breathing. Put one hand on your chest, one [00:33:30] on your belly and just see where you’re breathing. Because if you’re breathing in your chest, you’re kind of acting from a fight or flight [00:33:35] mode and your nervous system is dysregulated and you want to regulate it, breathe in [00:33:40] your belly. If you see an animal or your baby sleeping, where are they breathing? They’re [00:33:45] breathing in their bellies. When they’re breathing in their bellies, they’re very relaxed. And that’s where you want to [00:33:50] be working from as well. So the quickest one, just see where you’re breathing. Just check in on yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:33:55] But go on, give us 1 or 2, the next one. What’s the breathing [00:34:00] exercise? That makes sense.

Aditi Bhalla: Uh, after that, I would then do five nostril. [00:34:05] Uh, so I would close one nostril and then do five breaths in and out. From [00:34:10] my sources, I block my right nostril. I would do five breaths in and out from my left one, and I [00:34:15] would then block my left nostril and do the same from the right nostril. Breathe [00:34:20] in five. Breathe in.

Payman Langroudi: Breathe out.

Aditi Bhalla: Five times. Yeah, let’s do it.

Payman Langroudi: Is it a guided thing? [00:34:25] Is it? Does it help to be? It does, doesn’t it? It helps to be guided.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, it helps, but it doesn’t have [00:34:30] as I’ve explained, it doesn’t have to be guided. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s do one. Let’s do one with [00:34:35] that one or any other one you want. Yeah. Okay.

Aditi Bhalla: So do you want to first check in with your breath.

Payman Langroudi: Where you’re at? I [00:34:40] was good with that.

Aditi Bhalla: I was are you in your belly. You’re nice and relaxed okay. Right. Okay. So let’s let’s [00:34:45] take our thumbs and let’s just close our eyes.

Payman Langroudi: Close one.

Aditi Bhalla: Nostril. Yeah. And let’s just. Yeah. Go [00:34:50] in.

Payman Langroudi: Eyes closed.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Eyes closed. And deep breath in your nose. [00:34:55] Right into your belly and out. And [00:35:00] same again. We’re going to do this five times a second time. Breathing [00:35:05] out. Breathing [00:35:10] in again. Breathing [00:35:15] out. Breathing in again. Breathing [00:35:20] out. And [00:35:25] one last time.

Aditi Bhalla: Breathing in. Breathing [00:35:30] out. And now. Gently. Just closing the other nostril [00:35:35] and relieving.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll do that. The listeners gonna go berserk. But [00:35:40] isn’t it so interesting just breathing, man. Yeah, just. Just breathing. [00:35:45] Yeah. What’s the story with the not so just somehow.

Aditi Bhalla: So it balances the flow.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, I [00:35:50] got one side working the other side.

Aditi Bhalla: Well, that’s the idea. You want to balance the flow on both sides. [00:35:55]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s imagine if I’m super stressed. Should I be doing two breaths in, one breath out or [00:36:00] the other way around if I’m super down on energy? How do I get up? Energy? Do I do two bets [00:36:05] in one. Something. Is there a technique.

Aditi Bhalla: For not just the breath? I think when you’re super stressed. My my easiest [00:36:10] way to come back to the here and now is literally shake your body. Literally shake it out [00:36:15] because you want to come back into your. Yeah, literally just shake, shake your hands. Shake your [00:36:20] legs, literally just shake it out.

Payman Langroudi: That brings me back.

Aditi Bhalla: To brings you back into your body. Because [00:36:25] when you’re stressed out, you’re disconnected. Your brain’s function is just to keep you safe, keep [00:36:30] your organs running. You want to come back in the here and now. And so for me, the [00:36:35] bodywork comes even before the breathwork. You want to first connect to your body. So [00:36:40] yeah, the easiest one. Just shake your body out and then check in with your breath.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:36:45] then what’s did I read ERP. Sorry ERP or something. [00:36:50] Something else. Did I get that wrong?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What else? What else?

Aditi Bhalla: Fda.

Payman Langroudi: Fda FDA. [00:36:55] Yes.

Aditi Bhalla: Okay. So that’s tapping.

Payman Langroudi: Tapping.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, it’s called tapping. Uh, it’s based [00:37:00] on acupuncture. Yeah. Uh, so you’ve got these meridians. So in Chinese medicine [00:37:05] you’ve got these meridians. Energy. Energy. Yeah. Energy centres running. So like in, in in Hinduism [00:37:10] we’ve got chakras. Yeah. Whereas in Chinese we’ve got these meridians.

Payman Langroudi: And at the same place.

Aditi Bhalla: Uh, [00:37:15] slightly, slightly slightly. Yes. Uh, so when, [00:37:20] when the energy lines cross, they create something called as powerful energy centres. Those are your [00:37:25] acupuncture points. That’s when you go to see an acupuncturist. That’s where they inject [00:37:30] the needles. Whereas with tapping you can press on those points and [00:37:35] helps you relieve stress. And it’s known to work it yourself. [00:37:40] Yeah, you can do it for yourself. Once you learn the sequence you have, it’s the same sequence, same points, [00:37:45] but you say different words, uh, and by speaking and by tapping on [00:37:50] those points, it takes down your stress, takes down your anxiety. So yeah, that’s [00:37:55] that’s one technique as well.

Payman Langroudi: I saw crystal something about crystals.

Aditi Bhalla: Crystals.

Payman Langroudi: Talk [00:38:00] about that because I went I went to an Airbnb once in in, uh, Arizona. [00:38:05] Yeah. And it was Sedona. Do you know about Sedona is, like, very, like spiritual place? Yeah. And this Airbnb [00:38:10] had crystals everywhere, man. Like some giant ones. Little ones. Yeah. You [00:38:15] really believe that story, or is it? Do you think that’s more a [00:38:20] placebo story? Or. It doesn’t matter if. As long as it helps.

Aditi Bhalla: Well, crystals can do whatever [00:38:25] your body can do. Yeah. They don’t they don’t have super powers. They’re not going to suddenly give you [00:38:30] powers to fly or to, you know, whatever your body can do. They can enhance. Look, [00:38:35] they’re coming from. I do believe in them. They’re coming from Earth. Yeah. They’re bringing in. [00:38:40]

Payman Langroudi: Some energy.

Aditi Bhalla: Of some energies. Yeah, they can work with your own because you you as [00:38:45] a person are energy as well.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean, man? I’ve heard that said [00:38:50] so many times. Is it to do what these energy centres that you’re talking about? Yeah. Okay. Is that what you mean by I [00:38:55] am energy for everything. I don’t get it. I don’t get that one. What does that mean?

Aditi Bhalla: For a very scientific [00:39:00] person. Let’s, let’s let’s break this down. When you walk into a room, you [00:39:05] when you’re around certain people, you would feel really happy. Yeah, right. Or sometimes you would [00:39:10] feel, oh, I don’t want to be in that situation. I don’t don’t want to be around that person. So what [00:39:15] is that? That’s energy. That’s energy. That’s their energy. Yeah, we all carry [00:39:20] it and we all have good energy and bad energy. And it’s, [00:39:25] you know, give given what our emotions are, what the situation is going on, we could be exuding that energy. [00:39:30] So that’s what I mean by that. Does that make sense now.

Payman Langroudi: It does make sense. It does [00:39:35] make sense. You seem to be very like very quickly, easily [00:39:40] able to answer these questions. Right.

Aditi Bhalla: It’s because I’ve been asked them [00:39:45] so many times, especially especially about the crystals, because, well, if you came [00:39:50] to my house, you would see them everywhere. Oh, really? My son now collects random stones from, [00:39:55] you know, anywhere, and everyone calls them magic stone. So it’s something I talk about very [00:40:00] openly. I used to kind of not, uh, but yeah, there would be in my water. There [00:40:05] would be under my pillow. There are really around me. Um.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:40:10] you know, like when you’re a dentist, you kind of need to know when to refer.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:40:15] does that apply to your work? Is there a time where you think I got to refer this person?

Aditi Bhalla: Absolutely. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: What? A psychiatrist or whatever it is.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you know that [00:40:25] when?

Aditi Bhalla: When there’s. Because I can’t prescribe any medication when I know for certain situations you might need some [00:40:30] medication you would refer, or sometimes they need group work, or they need family work [00:40:35] or they need I feel like there’s a type of therapy they might really, you know, get. Yeah. [00:40:40] Benefit from then I would, I would refer and I’ve got that network in place already. Uh, I [00:40:45] work from a therapy centre near where I live, and we’ve got all sorts of specialists [00:40:50] there. So we kind of refer internally to each other. Yeah, that. [00:40:55] Oh, I’ve got this client I think they would really benefit working from you.

Payman Langroudi: Why does group work [00:41:00] help some people? What situations does group work good for? I think addiction sort of stuff. [00:41:05]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Yeah. But I think group work is good in all sort of situations because it brings you again to [00:41:10] that human level because, you know, evolutionary, we were never meant to live alone. We [00:41:15] always thrived in smaller communities. So I think group [00:41:20] work really brings that sense of community, that sense of that. I am not isolated in this problem. [00:41:25] I’ve got other people and it can be quite therapeutic knowing that there are others [00:41:30] with me struggling.

Payman Langroudi: In this area of people not forgiving [00:41:35] themselves and not not being kinder to themselves. So have [00:41:40] you. The unlock for that person tends to be different for each person, [00:41:45] I’m sure. Right. Yeah, but give me some stories. Like like what happens? [00:41:50] Does that person end up being this other person then? Do they end up being less organised and [00:41:55] less achieving and less ambitious.

Aditi Bhalla: If they forgive.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because, you know, [00:42:00] it’s like, you know, your biggest strength is your biggest weakness. Yeah. That idea. Yeah. You know, that’s something [00:42:05] that’s driving them so hard in the end. There’s, there’s, you know, it’s also burning them [00:42:10] out. Yeah. So but is there an opposite effect like okay, you end up being kinder to yourself, [00:42:15] but now you’re not so driven. Does that ever happen?

Aditi Bhalla: That is one of the biggest [00:42:20] fears.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what people fear, don’t they?

Aditi Bhalla: That is one of the biggest fears that comes up when we talk about compassion, [00:42:25] because you think that that’s going to make you weak. It’s going to make you all [00:42:30] wishy washy and, you know, not motivated at all. Yeah, but that’s not the truth. [00:42:35] Um, having being a compassionate person, you’ve got to have three elements to yourself. You’ve [00:42:40] got to have the courage to understand that there is an issue, there’s a problem. You’ve [00:42:45] got to have the wisdom, the awareness that, okay, this is going on. Um, [00:42:50] and then you’ve got to have this caring commitment that I want to resolve it. Yeah. [00:42:55] So, for example, when we think about compassionate leaders in the world, if we talked about Mother [00:43:00] Teresa, you wouldn’t say she is weak, unmotivated. [00:43:05] Was she was she? If we took the examples of example of a firefighter, they’re [00:43:10] compassionate. You know, they jump into the fire for somebody. And what does it take? [00:43:15] It takes wisdom, obviously, to understand the fire, to understand where the water is going to come. [00:43:20] It takes courage and it takes commitment to resolve that problem. And that’s why compassion [00:43:25] is so hard. But with practice, it can make you this motivated, [00:43:30] driven person. So I think that is one of the biggest fears that.

Payman Langroudi: I like, that I like that that [00:43:35] compassion is compatible with all these things.

Aditi Bhalla: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But I think for [00:43:40] me, you know, the question I was talking before about peace and contentment and contentment, [00:43:45] especially in our part of the world, it’s almost seen as a weakness, whereas [00:43:50] really it should be the thing that you’re after the most. I’m content, I am content. [00:43:55] Yeah. And the interesting notion of why does contentment [00:44:00] have to be on the same string as ambition? Yeah. Like why? Why [00:44:05] is it if I’m content? I can’t be ambitious? If I’m ambitious, I can’t be content? Is it possible to sort of square [00:44:10] that circle?

Aditi Bhalla: Exactly. It just blows my mind away.

Payman Langroudi: But. But I really feel that way. I feel that [00:44:15] way. So how do I get over that?

Aditi Bhalla: How do you get over your contentment? [00:44:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What? I’m after contentment, for sure. Yeah. And yet a part of me is saying, once you’re content, [00:44:25] you haven’t got your ambitions gone. And by the way, by the way, ambition [00:44:30] can be gone. Doesn’t like ambitions. A young man’s sport. You know what? [00:44:35] What are your thoughts around that?

Aditi Bhalla: I think they can co-exist. Just like [00:44:40] lots of other things.

Payman Langroudi: How do I unlock the link between them? You know, like, I would love for them to co-exist, but [00:44:45] it feels like it’s a zero sum game. If you’re if you’re more content, you’re less ambitious. If you’re more ambitious, you’re less [00:44:50] content.

Aditi Bhalla: So I’ll give you my example. I feel very content with life right now, but that doesn’t [00:44:55] mean that I’m not ambitious. I’m equally very driven, very ambitious. I think.

Payman Langroudi: How did you how did [00:45:00] you unlock those two?

Aditi Bhalla: I think that the key to unlocking it is to ask your [00:45:05] why. Why? For the ambition that you’re going for and why? For the contentment as well. Why [00:45:10] do I feel content right now? I feel content because I have been doing things that I wanted that [00:45:15] that I have set out. But I feel ambitious because there’s still more I want to do. There’s still more I want [00:45:20] to achieve. And this contentment is actually driving my ambition [00:45:25] because I’m no longer working from fear. Yeah, I’m no longer working in fear that, oh [00:45:30] my God, I haven’t achieved, I haven’t done, I’ve achieved, I’ve done, you know, [00:45:35] and it comes with a lot of self-compassion that, okay, it’s been hard. I’ve done this, but [00:45:40] also I still want to do more. So I think the key to unlocking, again, I would say [00:45:45] self-compassion and saying, right, let this contentment be my fuel for [00:45:50] ambition.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting.

Aditi Bhalla: Let it not be.

Payman Langroudi: I like how simple. You keep everything. [00:45:55]

Aditi Bhalla: Life is hard. Life is hard as it is. We’ve been dealt [00:46:00] with things that we’ve got to deal with. So, you know we can’t make the tools [00:46:05] for our help. Self-help difficult. We’ve got to make it easy, simple, [00:46:10] accessible and sustainable. Otherwise, we’re not going to do it. We’re just going to be.

Payman Langroudi: You do? You do [00:46:15] look.

Payman Langroudi: Happy right now. Yeah, but I’m sure there was very dark days when [00:46:20] your wrist started giving out. Yeah. Tell me about that. Tell me.

Aditi Bhalla: I woke [00:46:25] up one morning and my thumb was numb. I couldn’t feel.

Payman Langroudi: The blue.

Aditi Bhalla: Out of the [00:46:30] blue. Just woke up. I’m sure I ignored the pain for a little while. And, like. Like you do, uh. [00:46:35] And I woke up, and I was just. It was numb, and I. I really freaked out. [00:46:40] Uh, luckily, I have a very good, uh, orthopaedic friend. I gave him [00:46:45] a call, and I said, look, my thumb is numb, I cannot work. And I need [00:46:50] your help. I need you to see me today. Uh. And he did. And we had [00:46:55] some, you know, MRIs and scans. And then I was diagnosed with dequervain’s. Tenosynovitis, [00:47:00] um, and which is, which is basically your, um, [00:47:05] it’s your it’s not, it’s it’s it’s a tendon disease. It’s not [00:47:10] a tenosynovitis. It’s basically a tendon disease. It gets inflamed and it presses [00:47:15] against the nerves. And that’s where you get numbness and less mobility. And it [00:47:20] mainly happens when new mothers. But I didn’t have I didn’t have a baby at the time. [00:47:25] So it was because of repetitive movements.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Yeah, really. Dentistry was the.

Aditi Bhalla: Cause. [00:47:30] Was the dentistry. Yeah. But also stress. Yeah, that aggravated the whole thing because your [00:47:35] body has a way of speaking.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: That’s right. And yeah. So it was repetitive movements [00:47:40] that caused it.

Payman Langroudi: How hard were you.

Payman Langroudi: Working as a dentist at that point?

Aditi Bhalla: I was working six days a week at [00:47:45] the time. I was, yeah, working long hours. And also I was driving all the [00:47:50] way. I was working in different practices. I was working in deal, I was working in Essex, and [00:47:55] then I was also lecturing at the time. So I was all over. I was literally I was hustling.

Payman Langroudi: And a [00:48:00] kid.

Aditi Bhalla: Well, the kid came after and then I had my second flare up of Dequervain’s, [00:48:05] and that’s when surgery was the only option I had. And I didn’t want to necessarily [00:48:10] go for it because of the recovery and the risks. Um, and that’s when [00:48:15] I decided to pause.

Payman Langroudi: And are they confident that pausing will [00:48:20] mean it’ll be okay again?

Aditi Bhalla: I feel I feel very good now. The pain has sort of gone [00:48:25] away. It’s not to say that it wouldn’t come back, but I’ve just got to manage it mindfully. [00:48:30] So if I do choose to go back, uh, it’ll have to be part time and I’ll have [00:48:35] to sort of just keep an eye on things. Uh, yeah. That’s that’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Only I found. [00:48:40] Only when I stopped practising did I really identify what I loved about [00:48:45] being a dentist. Yeah. So now that you’ve stopped. Yeah. What’s the thing [00:48:50] that you used to love about being a dentist?

Aditi Bhalla: Talking to my [00:48:55] older patients. Because I used to love doing dentures. They were my absolute favourite. [00:49:00] And the stories they had to tell you. You know, if you just took out a little bit of your [00:49:05] time just to speak to them, it’s that connection. Yeah. I used to love that. I used to absolutely [00:49:10] love that. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting. But as, like, as a specialist, [00:49:15] you didn’t even, like, say something clinical? No. That [00:49:20] was the same, by the way. The conversations. The conversations? Definitely.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, the conversations for sure. [00:49:25] Yeah. And. Yeah. Do. Yeah. Doing dentures, which nobody likes to do. I used to love doing [00:49:30] dentures. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny because dentists teach you a lot about [00:49:35] occlusion even. Yeah. Let alone we used to have one guy, uh, professor who was an older [00:49:40] guy. Yeah. I’m sure he’s not with us anymore, but he used to say, you can’t [00:49:45] have attention is too tight. Yeah, like a full denture. Yeah. Yeah, like too tight. It’s a ridiculous [00:49:50] thing for a patient to say. It’s too tight. Yeah. And so I used to be [00:49:55] his housemate, his junior. And if a patient ever said that he would take the denture, I said, no [00:50:00] problem. I’m going to stretch the denture for you. And he’d say, come on, let’s go. And we’d go into his office and we’d just stand there [00:50:05] for 45 seconds. Yeah. And then come back and he’d stick it back [00:50:10] in the patient’s mouth. Oh, that’s much better. Much better.

Aditi Bhalla: You know, older [00:50:15] people are like babies. They’re literally like kids. And you’ve just got to, you know, deal with [00:50:20] them a little bit of give them a bit of TLC. But yeah, I used to love working with the older people [00:50:25] and the stories they had to tell, the wisdom that they brought. Definitely. Yeah. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: What’s your view on placebo? You know, in all this work that you’re doing, do you [00:50:35] account for placebo? Do you think do you think it’s a bigger thing than you thought before [00:50:40] or, you know, like, almost like just now. You told me to cover one nostril and breathe. [00:50:45] Yeah. And I felt better, I felt better. I just breathe, that’s all I did. Yeah, well, tell me about [00:50:50] placebo. What? What do you think about it?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, I think I think there is always an element [00:50:55] of placebo. Uh, there’s there’s been studies.

Payman Langroudi: There’s it somewhat like, you know, is [00:51:00] that part of what you’re doing?

Aditi Bhalla: Uh, I think the willingness of [00:51:05] wanting to do something about your problem is more where I, you know, where I sort of [00:51:10] offer support with the placebo. Sort of comes in, comes in on its own. It’s not something [00:51:15] I would say, oh, I am doing this for the placebo effect, but I do believe in it. I think it [00:51:20] it exists. There’s numerous studies and books written about it. Uh, if [00:51:25] you think it, you can heal it. You know, it does work. It does. It’s [00:51:30] not to say that that’s the work that I am doing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was your darkest [00:51:35] day? Was it around the illness?

Aditi Bhalla: It was definitely around the illness when, uh, the [00:51:40] my second round of sorry when my second round of the injections [00:51:45] didn’t work and I was just told that, well, there is no other option, you’re [00:51:50] just going to have to have surgery. I think that was a really dark day because I thought [00:51:55] that I’ve done so much training. I’ve done so much study.

Payman Langroudi: This nightmare, isn’t it? Every dentist has [00:52:00] that little thing in the back of their head. What if something happens to my hands, my arm, I can’t [00:52:05] work. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: So it it kind of broke me. But [00:52:10] then I was also reminded very lovingly by my husband that I’ve got so many other skills that I could put [00:52:15] to use.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, did you have insurance of some sort?

Aditi Bhalla: I didn’t, I was I [00:52:20] was not smart enough at the time. Uh, however, my husband now has some [00:52:25] because obviously we’ve experienced it, but I wish I did, and that’s something I [00:52:30] do recommend. Uh, everybody, um, I didn’t have any insurance. [00:52:35] Uh, and I think another dark time would be along along with the Deco rings. Flare [00:52:40] up was I had hyperemesis when I was pregnant and that was just so hard. [00:52:45] It was almost like my wrists were giving up. My body was failing me. Almost. [00:52:50] Yeah, it really took me to a dark place.

Payman Langroudi: As a young person, it’s difficult, you know, it’s a difficult thing. [00:52:55] What about kids? I mean, kids, I find, you know, you know, one [00:53:00] of the biggest problems, one of the biggest issues that you’re having to treat, basically, is people who [00:53:05] want it all. And I don’t know, how do you feel around that? Because [00:53:10] for me, wanting it all is a bit selfish, a bit a bit much. Yeah. Insomuch as it [00:53:15] depends what all is. Right. Yeah. But when, when kids come along, they, [00:53:20] they, they start wanting it all and, and I think it comes down to this [00:53:25] notion of something’s got to give. Right. And what is the thing that gives [00:53:30] when I ask. And it’s mothers. It’s mothers. Yeah. Because they’re trying to do their kids, do [00:53:35] their careers. Do their husbands. Do you know. Yeah. What is it that gives most [00:53:40] of them say my own health. Mhm. Sometimes the relationship. Yeah. [00:53:45] Because the kind of people they are that are going to the kids not going to give works, not going to give. [00:53:50] So the only things that can give are the things that, you know, you think you can get away with. Mhm. What [00:53:55] are your thoughts around that. I mean what’s having a kid done to that part of you. We’ll get [00:54:00] to other parts. But that part of you.

Aditi Bhalla: I think when, when it started it was [00:54:05] definitely me. Like I had to sort of I ignored my own needs because [00:54:10] obviously taking care of the needs of this little one was just everything to me. And doing it right again, [00:54:15] that perfectionism in that as well was showing through. So in the beginning, it was definitely [00:54:20] that. However, with the work that I’ve done with myself, it’s kind of become like [00:54:25] having that understanding that no one day is going to be 100% mother or 100% [00:54:30] work or, you know, it’s finding that own sweet.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, you’re now really good at it, right? You’re really good. [00:54:35]

Aditi Bhalla: So yeah, in the beginning it was definitely [00:54:40] sort of giving my all to my little one and [00:54:45] my work as well. And I was also studying at the time. So it was, it was, it was, yeah. [00:54:50] Madness.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s a common issue, right, where people think, you know, I find funny. [00:54:55] People say something like, I always thought by this time I would be something. [00:55:00] Yes, I go why? I was like, why is that even a problem? Why is that a thing? So [00:55:05] you always thought, you know what I mean? Like, I always thought by 30 I would be married and have a practice, all right? [00:55:10] You didn’t. So what? Yeah, exactly.

Aditi Bhalla: So what have you have you have you died? Are you still here? [00:55:15] You can do this now. You know, I recently met someone who, at the age of 60, [00:55:20] is now doing a cooking show, who has written a cookbook. You know, it’s possible at any age. I [00:55:25] think this is just a societal thing where you’re just, you know, set out these timelines [00:55:30] which must fit everybody. Whereas, no, you’re here having your own journey. So you’ve got to [00:55:35] make your own timeline. You know, it’s not the same for everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have a coach? [00:55:40]

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And a therapist?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. Oh, yes. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, [00:55:45] absolutely. And I don’t think I could.

Payman Langroudi: Important thing that for you to.

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. So as professionally as well, [00:55:50] you’ve got to be in therapy. Uh, because, uh, certain clients will bring certain things. They might [00:55:55] trigger something in you. So you’ve got to have, uh. It’s called supervision.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: So you are [00:56:00] okay to take care of your clients. Which is funny enough. We don’t have that in dentistry, because [00:56:05] you need to have a mentor to make sure that everything’s going right. So, yes, I’ve got a coach. I’ve got [00:56:10] a therapist. Uh, it’s not only, uh, a professional requirement, but I feel [00:56:15] a personal one as well. It’s just so nice to have someone that non-judgmental space where you can [00:56:20] talk about your problems, but also talk about the solutions, the growth, and what you can take away [00:56:25] from there.

Payman Langroudi: And if I don’t want to, I don’t want to be reductive about it. Yeah, but let’s just talk about the business [00:56:30] of coaching. Yes. Do you recognise something around, like how good it [00:56:35] is to be a dentist. Now that you’re in another business, you know, like, [00:56:40] for instance, when we started enlighten. Yeah. I realised [00:56:45] very early on that dentistry was a lot better than I realised it was. [00:56:50] You know, because products selling to dentists so much harder than [00:56:55] selling to patients. Yeah. And just the dynamic, the trust dynamics of a dental [00:57:00] chair, the fact that, I mean, you know, it goes back every six months. Yeah. [00:57:05] Pays you money every six months to check in on you again, like for a check-up. No [00:57:10] other industry has that. No.

Aditi Bhalla: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So? So give me your reflections [00:57:15] around, like, for me, when I started enlighten, it really made me appreciate [00:57:20] what it is to be a dentist. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. I think grass is always greener on the other side. So when [00:57:25] you’re a dentist, you’re just constantly focussed on what’s going wrong and not appreciating [00:57:30] enough what is actually, you’re not taking the time out to reflect on what is actually working, you know? So [00:57:35] I think as a as a, as a psychotherapist, I’ve definitely realised, uh, [00:57:40] the financial aspect of it, uh, therapists work so hard and they [00:57:45] work with you on a personal level.

Payman Langroudi: Is it as tiring as being a dentist? More tiring. How [00:57:50] would you look at it?

Aditi Bhalla: Well, it doesn’t affect you physically in the sense that you’re not bending over someone’s mouth, but. [00:57:55] But yeah, just, you know, sitting in front of someone again, I’m going to talk about energy, you know, in that energy [00:58:00] of, you know, resolving and solving problems and offering support and help, it can be quite [00:58:05] draining.

Payman Langroudi: Are all your sessions face to face or do you do online?

Aditi Bhalla: They’re a blend. So they would be [00:58:10] face depending on where the client is. So if they’re local and they prefer coming in person [00:58:15] then it would be face to face or it could be online as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mind me asking [00:58:20] how much it costs?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. So per hour it’s £65 an hour, which [00:58:25] is nothing compared to what a dentist gets paid. So. But it brings me joy. [00:58:30] And I think that’s my why. And that’s what you’ve got to keep coming back to. And [00:58:35] that’s what I do. Um, it’s hard work. I definitely don’t deny it, but it [00:58:40] offers me what I need right now for my life. Uh, and that’s something I keep coming [00:58:45] back to. And I never say never about dentistry. Uh, I may go back to it. [00:58:50]

Payman Langroudi: Or you may not.

Aditi Bhalla: Or may not, I. I think I’ve stopped making plans that are set [00:58:55] in stone and I’ve gone more like, right, I’m going to flow in whichever direction I need to flow [00:59:00] and I’m going to make it work. That’s the attitude. Whereas before it was just like this [00:59:05] goal, this goal, this goal, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. Now I’m just like, let’s [00:59:10] just flow with it, let’s go with it and let’s make life work for you.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:59:15] the thing you’re struggling with the most at the moment?

Aditi Bhalla: Getting people [00:59:20] to understand what I’m doing, because there can be a little bit of a conflict in the sense, oh, you’re [00:59:25] a dentist. There’s always this question like.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, So.

Aditi Bhalla: There’s [00:59:30] always your dentist. But then they suddenly want to know the backstory. But why did you leave? And you know, why [00:59:35] are you doing this work? So I think that’s something, uh.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult to understand because this is [00:59:40] the spiritual thing. It’s difficult to. Yes, it’s the point of it is it’s difficult to understand. [00:59:45] But. Yeah. Um, I can see why people think the same thing. I [00:59:50] was thinking, what’s going on here?

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, but the thing is that I don’t shy [00:59:55] away from talking. Talking about it. I’m very open. Uh, and I talk about [01:00:00] everything because I do feel that traditional therapy works only to a certain [01:00:05] degree. There has to be something beyond. And a lot of my clients have had traditional [01:00:10] therapy and they’ve said it doesn’t work. It didn’t work for them. And when they start to work [01:00:15] in other ways, it really helps them a lot. I’ve seen a lot of change. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had traditional therapy, but my understanding of it is that the relationship between the [01:00:25] therapist and the client is really key. Yes, but finding the right therapist for you? Yeah. [01:00:30] Do you. Have you found that a dentist, dentist, dentist relationship with [01:00:35] a therapist is important because, you know, you really get exactly [01:00:40] what. What’s going on? Yeah, with a dentist. Yeah.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, definitely. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: It must be right.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. I mean, they see that. Oh. I’ve been I understand yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I [01:00:50] understand the struggles already, so they don’t actually have to break it down and make me understand the system because I already [01:00:55] understand it. So, you know, they’re sort of like saving their time and energy saying, oh, we don’t have to. [01:01:00] You understand what it’s like. You understand what the NHS is. You understand what you know. When I say, you know [01:01:05] this, this is the trouble I’m having with my nurse. You understand the dynamics and all of it. So it definitely [01:01:10] is an advantage.

Payman Langroudi: That’s super interesting.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, it’s definitely an advantage and even [01:01:15] you would be surprised. But even like in banking and stuff they struggle with similar things. The hierarchy, [01:01:20] the the stress, the ticking boxes, you know, all of those things. [01:01:25] So they kind of say, oh, you’ve, you’ve been there, you’ve you’ve hustled so you understand. You [01:01:30] understand what it’s like. So yeah, it definitely gives me an advantage.

Payman Langroudi: Are you religious? [01:01:35]

Aditi Bhalla: No, no I’m not. However, I don’t I [01:01:40] don’t shut it down in the sense that I’m not against it or anything, but I’m not [01:01:45] super religious. My family is, my husband’s family is. And I participate in [01:01:50] everything, uh, all the all the ceremonies and everything. I celebrate all the festivals. [01:01:55] Uh, but I come from it. Come to it from a very spiritual perspective. I [01:02:00] try to see the good in those things, and I celebrate it.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a [01:02:05] Hindu?

Aditi Bhalla: I am.

Payman Langroudi: So we were talking about this before. In a way, spirituality can be kind of kind [01:02:10] of religion. Kind of. But with your own rules. Yeah. Rather than the religion’s rules?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. [01:02:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s nicer in a way. Definitely.

Aditi Bhalla: Because there’s no structure. There’s no you can’t [01:02:20] do this. And you only you can only do this on a certain day. And there’s, you know, there’s no structure. There’s [01:02:25] no you are free to be a good person. You’re free to, you know, do all the nice things. [01:02:30] So I say take all the positives from the religion and put it into spirituality. That’s [01:02:35] that’s what it is. Yeah. And I love that because it gives me the freedom. I was never a person [01:02:40] who could be put down into this, this rules. And, you know, this [01:02:45] box I always I was always this person who questioned that doesn’t sit right with religious [01:02:50] people. They get very cross when you start to ask them, why do I have to do this? Or why do you know, why are [01:02:55] we doing this? Um, so spirituality works for me, makes me [01:03:00] happy.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever listened to an episode of this podcast before?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So we like [01:03:05] to talk about mistakes.

Aditi Bhalla: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if we want [01:03:10] to listen to a mistake that you’ve made and something that we can all learn from, [01:03:15] we like generally go clinical mistakes. I’m happy to start there if you want.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, I think it [01:03:20] was a very I just come to this country. And you know, I am seeing one of my [01:03:25] maybe first few patients at university. Um, and I see this white [01:03:30] guy who’s not very happy that I’m his, uh, dentist. Uh, so he’s made [01:03:35] me really anxious, and I cut his lip.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. The worst thing I could have [01:03:40] ever done. And the bleeding just would not stop.

Payman Langroudi: So a deep cut.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:03:45] it was quite a deep cut, so my professor had to come through. Obviously, the patient was quite anxious, so [01:03:50] I.

Payman Langroudi: Did have to stitch it.

Aditi Bhalla: No, luckily we didn’t. We just had to apply [01:03:55] pressure and just be with it. Just be patient. But I think when the mistake in that [01:04:00] is not obviously the cut and lift one is the obvious one, but for me is to have that faith [01:04:05] in myself. I didn’t trust my abilities. I was I was influenced by what you know, how the patient [01:04:10] made me feel.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you think it happened because of the way he made?

Aditi Bhalla: Definitely. I’d [01:04:15] never had I had never done that before. So it was kind of like the emotional side [01:04:20] of it is what got to me. And I lost my concentration. So being really [01:04:25] present in the moment when you’re doing, you know, a complex treatment because, yeah, some people can make you [01:04:30] feel a certain way. But you know, you’ve got to keep your emotions in check.

Payman Langroudi: That was bad energy. [01:04:35]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Bad energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I didn’t understand energy at the time. Yeah. [01:04:40] So I think that that kind of stuck with me. Um, yeah. [01:04:45] So I think that’s one clinical mistake that’s really, really.

Payman Langroudi: Any others?

Aditi Bhalla: Any [01:04:50] other clinical mistake. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Most difficult patient.

Aditi Bhalla: Most [01:04:55] difficult patient. Wow. I’ve had a few. I think [01:05:00] the first one that comes to mind is, uh, I was doing [01:05:05] an obturator for someone, and. Yeah. Just just really mean. [01:05:10] Mean? It was just really mean to me. Just did not like anything [01:05:15] that I did. But if it was, uh, a male colleague who came and did exactly the [01:05:20] same thing, he would be happy. So yeah, that’s something you’ve got. You’ve got [01:05:25] to face. And then another time I think.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it after cancer bits stuck on [01:05:30] a denture.

Aditi Bhalla: To to block block. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well yeah. You [01:05:35] just mean he was just.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. He was just not happy. I was just not inserting [01:05:40] the trays correctly. I was just. Yeah. Not getting the shade right. Just nothing. Nothing was right. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: So eventually reflecting what can we learn from that?

Aditi Bhalla: What can we learn from [01:05:50] that is have a conversation. Have a conversation that how can I how can I make this better? What [01:05:55] are your needs? You know, having that real, raw, honest conversation because I was afraid [01:06:00] to have that. I was afraid what was.

Payman Langroudi: Going to have that?

Aditi Bhalla: I didn’t have that conversation. And I should have that, you [01:06:05] know. Yeah, definitely. I wish I had had that conversation, but I just ended up saying, I think you would [01:06:10] be more comfortable with my male colleagues. And of course, in some situations you’ve got to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it was a man woman [01:06:15] thing.

Aditi Bhalla: I don’t know, maybe because I always asked for a man to come and help me. He was the only [01:06:20] other one willing to take on the patient. Nobody else was there, [01:06:25] so I don’t think it was a woman or man thing. It was just maybe he preferred his hands over mine. [01:06:30] Uh, but yeah, I think having that raw and honest conversation with [01:06:35] the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about in this work? I mean, I don’t want to characterise it as a mistake, [01:06:40] but but some something where you thought maybe it was just a regular thing and it was a [01:06:45] much deeper problem than you thought. Does that happen ever?

Aditi Bhalla: When I started, I thought [01:06:50] I could heal everybody. Fix everybody. You know that. Oh, I’m going to be this amazing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [01:06:55]

Aditi Bhalla: And then you get this client who is who’s just there to just rant [01:07:00] and do nothing. They don’t want to work on solving their problems. They don’t want to take any actions. You know, they don’t [01:07:05] want to take any of the tools you offer them. They just want to come and spend time talking, talking, [01:07:10] just crying about the same thing for how many ever weeks. And that really, [01:07:15] really was hard for me because I was in that mode that I’m going to fix [01:07:20] everybody’s problems, and that was a big learning curve. Big mistake. I took it back to my own [01:07:25] supervision session and I said, look, this person is not doing anything that I’m asking them. They’re [01:07:30] not taking on any of the tools that I’m offering them. And that’s when I realised, well, that’s because what [01:07:35] some people need is just a space to talk. And that’s what you’re there. You’re just there to hold the space. Yeah. [01:07:40] You know, you’re not there to facilitate healing. You’re there to offer that space, that non-judgmental space. [01:07:45] Um, so I think that was one of my biggest learnings in this work, [01:07:50] that I’m just there to hold the space and facilitate.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Isn’t it, like experience? What? [01:07:55] What, like if you say, oh, yeah, she’s an experienced prosthodontist. [01:08:00] Yeah. What does it even mean? It means you’ve come across situations that that you didn’t [01:08:05] know what to do, or you’ve made mistakes and and in this world now, now you’ve got the [01:08:10] experience of this ranter type. Yeah. Increase your hourly rate. Yeah. Increase. [01:08:15] And listen. Sit back and just listen.

Aditi Bhalla: You’ve not got to. You’re not there to solve everyone’s [01:08:20] problems. But I think nobody talks about their mistakes. Uh, [01:08:25] when you look at Instagram, when you look at nobody talks.

Payman Langroudi: About in medical and dental, we definitely [01:08:30] don’t. Right. And well, it’s that black box thinking, right where it’s blame is the problem [01:08:35] we’re running away from. Yeah. Um, but it is helpful. But the funny thing about it is I’ve, I’ve drilled [01:08:40] the wrong side. Yeah. Lower right seven instead of lower left. Yeah. Drilled and drilled and [01:08:45] drilled. I keep saying to the patient I can’t find it. It’s so obvious on the x ray. I can’t find it, I can’t find it. [01:08:50] And I realised oh it was the nurse back then. Right and left. They used to write on the, on [01:08:55] the, on the OPG and she’d got it wrong the wrong way round or whatever, whatever it was. Yeah. [01:09:00] And then since that happened I would check 15 times before. [01:09:05] Yeah. So because you’ve made the mistake yourself, you learn from it. But [01:09:10] someone else’s mistake, somehow you don’t learn quite as much, but it’s [01:09:15] an interesting thing. Not that we hear each other’s mistakes because we’re all, like, so perfect on Instagram. [01:09:20] Like you said.

Aditi Bhalla: We’re just like these, you know? Perfect. Every perfect everywhere. We’ve just [01:09:25] got. It’s just too much. It’s exhausting. We’ve got to start talking more about our mistakes, about, [01:09:30] you know, what I did wrong, even if it’s in smaller groups. Just talk about it because, yeah, you don’t [01:09:35] learn as much, but it makes you feel like, oh, I’m not the only one. Yeah, I’m not the only one making [01:09:40] mistakes because there’s others as well. We’re human. We’re going to make mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Do you get people? There must be [01:09:45] now. There must be people with like, severe anxiety about GDC and being sued. [01:09:50] And that’s probably the pandemic of its own, right? Yes. Does that come up a lot in your sessions?

Aditi Bhalla: Yes [01:09:55] it does. Uh, they might have had a complaint. They’re having sleepless nights, they’re having anxiety. And then you [01:10:00] sort of kind of unravel. And most of the times it’s the anxiety has started from something, [01:10:05] you know, long, long ago. And it’s sort of carried on. But yeah, fear of [01:10:10] I think the most common thing, fear of being struck off and also [01:10:15] fear of being found out that I have made this mistake. And, you know, people are going to judge [01:10:20] me, then they’re not going to think I’m a good dentist. They’re not going to think I know what I’m [01:10:25] talking about. And I think that’s a huge fear that comes up a lot in the session. [01:10:30] It’s it’s really sad because operating from a space of fear is, again, [01:10:35] stress in itself. Yeah. And you’re going to make more mistakes when you operate from that, [01:10:40] that space.

Payman Langroudi: And I mean, do people have access to you outside of the [01:10:45] sessions as well?

Aditi Bhalla: So I don’t offer emergency access. [01:10:50] So if there’s a crisis, yeah, if there’s a crisis point, I always say I always [01:10:55] give them numbers of helplines and I always give them that space. [01:11:00] However, they are open to message me or email me, and if I can offer support, I always will. [01:11:05] Uh, however, that’s not something that I offer because I know there are other, other [01:11:10] ways to get the crisis support. Yeah, but we always suss out that, oh, is there is there [01:11:15] a crisis need here. And then you would refer accordingly. Yeah. [01:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: What does the future hold?

Aditi Bhalla: Oh, the future is very exciting. It just feels [01:11:25] exciting. As I said, it’s not set in stone. I am still going with it. [01:11:30] Um, the two avenues that I’m really working on is the compassion [01:11:35] focussed dentistry and the Dental Wellbeing Hub. I feel like they’re my babies and I’m really excited [01:11:40] to.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it going? Tell me about the hub.

Aditi Bhalla: So the hub is a space that I’ve created, [01:11:45] uh, not for crisis points, but for points before. So how [01:11:50] can we prevent the crisis situation? The burnout. So the hub is a space where you come to [01:11:55] for preventative wellbeing to.

Payman Langroudi: Physically.

Aditi Bhalla: Right now, virtually right now virtually. [01:12:00] So I can reach anybody in, in the UK. Um, [01:12:05] but the hope is eventually it would also mean coming down in person. It’s [01:12:10] only started.

Payman Langroudi: Just like a website.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. So right now it’s just a Facebook group and the website is coming [01:12:15] up. It’s only been three months since it started. Uh, it was an idea that was long [01:12:20] in my head, and I thought it was the time that it comes. It comes into the world. [01:12:25] And. Yeah. So it’s a space I’ve created where I can offer these wellbeing tools. And [01:12:30] so they act as your preventative measure and you sort of, you know, you [01:12:35] think of a medical emergency kit bag. Right. Whereas I’m saying create a wellbeing kit [01:12:40] bag for yourself. Have all the tools ready and use them as in when use them regularly. [01:12:45] Use them in in times of stress anxiety so you don’t reach that burnout point. [01:12:50] And that’s what the Wellbeing Hub is all about.

Payman Langroudi: I quite like the idea of, you know, like optimisation [01:12:55] being on the same sort of path as this. Yeah. [01:13:00] You know, like it’s, it makes the whole thing much more interesting that you’ve got some executive who’s [01:13:05] super optimised. Yeah, that’s just the very end of this line of people [01:13:10] who are now sad and depressed and lonely and anxiety, all the all the things, you know, are [01:13:15] you looking at that as well? Sort of optimising people. It’s kind of on the same area. It doesn’t have to. [01:13:20] It doesn’t have to be problem focussed. You know, it could be. No tools. Tools. Focus. [01:13:25]

Aditi Bhalla: Yes. So I think I’m looking more at, you know, planting the seeds early, as early as [01:13:30] possible. If it gets to university level, that’s that’s where we want to get to at. Um, [01:13:35] so yeah, optimising sounds very, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Very aspirational. [01:13:40]

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Well. Well, more like. Oh, there’s it sounds a little bit stressful [01:13:45] as well. I think, you know, like, oh you’ve got to optimise the function, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, back to [01:13:50] the self.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah. Yeah. It’s almost like I, I want to make it sound that it’s it’s sustainable. [01:13:55] It’s easy, it’s accessible. And you can do this because everything in life is so hard. Even [01:14:00] when we look at, you know, some of the skincare routines like ten steps, I don’t have time to do ten steps. [01:14:05] You know, I’m lucky if my toddler lets me wash my face. So that’s [01:14:10] where I’m getting at. I’m getting real that we we all are busy. So how can I [01:14:15] fit in few moments of calm within my busy life? Yeah. Um. And that’s [01:14:20] where I am getting at, so I so I think maybe optimise in an easy way.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Aditi Bhalla: That [01:14:25] makes sense.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit I really I really like your energy, by the way, that you’ve taught me. Now that you’ve taught [01:14:30] me that.

Aditi Bhalla: I’m glad we’re talking about energy here.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:14:35] tend to end it on the same questions. Yeah. Fantasy dinner party. Oh, [01:14:40] three guests, dead or alive? Mhm. Who are you thinking you want [01:14:45] to have dinner with?

Aditi Bhalla: Okay. So I [01:14:50] would say dead and it sounds a little bit emotional but it’s not. Uh, I would say [01:14:55] my mom’s mom, my mom’s dad and my best friend from university, [01:15:00] all three are no more. And I really want to bring them here. And I just want to have this honest a short conversation [01:15:05] about life with them. And also. Yeah, just tell them everything is good. [01:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: What happened to your best friend?

Aditi Bhalla: He had cancer. Unfortunately, he was the topper of of [01:15:15] the class and did really well. But yeah, immediately after finishing dental school, he was diagnosed [01:15:20] and within six months he was gone.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Aditi Bhalla: So yeah, I really want to bring him back and say [01:15:25] life is good. It’s amazing. All of the support and the love you offered me during university [01:15:30] has been amazing. So yeah, bring them back.

Payman Langroudi: And your grandparents. How [01:15:35] old were you when I was really young.

Aditi Bhalla: I was my gran, my granddad. I was, [01:15:40] um, I was 15, so I was older then. [01:15:45] But with my grandmom, I was six. Yeah. So I was, I was, but I remember [01:15:50] having such beautiful memories during the summer time with them. And I think I just wanted. [01:15:55]

Payman Langroudi: To look after you or something.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah, they did, they did. And they were very, um, they were very [01:16:00] motivating. They were very much like, you know, they were always cheering for me.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [01:16:05] something about that grandparent that’s different. They’re different.

Aditi Bhalla: When I look at my.

Payman Langroudi: Mom now. [01:16:10]

Aditi Bhalla: It’s like, what happened? What happened? What happened to you? [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny. Amazing. And the final one is a deathbed [01:16:20] question. Oh.

Aditi Bhalla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice for your loved [01:16:25] ones. For the world on your deathbed.

Aditi Bhalla: So I would say I’m not. I’m not saving any advice [01:16:30] until my deathbed. I’m gonna give it right now. But I think what [01:16:35] I would say is life is too short. Uh, we’re all going to get to the to [01:16:40] the end anyway, so stop ticking boxes. Do it now. Say [01:16:45] I love you as much as you can, you know. Say it. [01:16:50] Sing it morning, evening and night. Just say I love you to each other. Uh. [01:16:55] Don’t hold back the love and forgive. Forgive fearlessly. [01:17:00] Because forgiveness is not for the other person, it’s for you. So [01:17:05] forgive. Forgive freely and fearlessly. That’s the advice I would give.

Payman Langroudi: Very [01:17:10] nice. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed, I’ve learnt a lot. Thank you. Really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming [01:17:15] all the way here.

Aditi Bhalla: For having.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Really enjoyed.

Aditi Bhalla: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:17:20] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:17:25] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts [01:17:30] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [01:17:35] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank [01:17:40] you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what [01:17:45] our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out [01:17:50] of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:17:55] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

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Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Recently, one of the groups did a survey to understand [00:00:05] what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their Dental chair. Enlighten came in as a second most profitable [00:00:10] thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if your Dental chair is busy, [00:00:15] it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on Enlighten Online Training to [00:00:20] fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about it. Deliver brilliant results [00:00:25] every time. Enlighten online training comm.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me [00:00:50] great pleasure to welcome Alex Puccio onto the podcast. I met [00:00:55] Alex first at Mini Smile Makeover.

Alex Buciu: But yeah, probably the [00:01:00] first time. The first one. Yeah. But you’re the first man because I. You came twice. You came to [00:01:05] New York. They named it twice. New York, New York. I had to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of people come twice. [00:01:10] You know, people can come as many times as they like. And the record is seven times. Seven [00:01:15] times. And actually, interestingly, we talk about that because now Depeche after three years he’s going to do [00:01:20] Mini Smile makeover part two multiple teeth. So that that guy’s a perfectionist. [00:01:25] Yeah. So good to have you, buddy. Alex.

Alex Buciu: Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. [00:01:30] Alex is a dentist who qualified in Romania and, uh, then decided to [00:01:35] make the move firstly to Northern Ireland and then to Peterborough lately. [00:01:40] And working as an associate.

Alex Buciu: Yes. That’s it. I chose, uh, Northern [00:01:45] Ireland because I was extremely scared about the NHS, uh, dental [00:01:50] and, um, target cdas and stuff. And I chose Northern Ireland, uh, [00:01:55] because I had a friend there and also it’s a fibre item. [00:02:00] So I said, yeah, even if I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: And you knew that from Romania.

Alex Buciu: So I said, [00:02:05] it’s gonna be like a stepping stone and take it from there, even if I, there’s no target. [00:02:10] So whatever I make, I make and that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: And had you worked as a dentist in Romania?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. [00:02:15] Yes, I had my own clinic. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So I qualified in 2004. I [00:02:20] had my own clinic. Uh, and in the last few years before I left, most [00:02:25] of my friends were endodontics or root canal. Yeah. Specialists. [00:02:30] And I started to go on that path. Uh, I was working [00:02:35] under a microscope. I had some dentists that started to send referrals over. So [00:02:40] imagine the shock and the disappointment when, uh, I moved Northern [00:02:45] Ireland and they said, okay, you have 15 minutes to place two amalgams. It’s like an amalgam because I [00:02:50] wrote read about it. But, uh, um, in Romania they are banned [00:02:55] for ten dozens of years. You know, it’s like you have to like, what? Would you play something? I [00:03:00] was like, no. And I would place rubber dam and, you know, floss the rubber dam. And my nurse [00:03:05] would pull her like, we have five people waiting in the.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not an uncommon story, right? I have [00:03:10] people sitting where you’re sitting, coming from India from all over the world, and their [00:03:15] first exposure to the NHS as shocking for them. Um, [00:03:20] tell me this. The decision to move. I mean, if you were a practice owner, [00:03:25] someone who’s doing endo to that level, why move? I mean, [00:03:30] you could have had a pretty good life in Romania.

[TRANSITION]: I guess it.

Alex Buciu: Was a good life. Um, it [00:03:35] it wasn’t amazing, but it was good. Um, however, the associate [00:03:40] I had, the. I’m not gonna go into too many details. Uh, for the clinic, [00:03:45] things started to deteriorate.

Payman Langroudi: And between you and him.

Alex Buciu: You. Yeah, it [00:03:50] was my sister.

[TRANSITION]: But it was.

Payman Langroudi: Your.

[TRANSITION]: Sister.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. But, uh, dishonesty [00:03:55] and, uh, yeah, theft [00:04:00] and stuff like this.

Payman Langroudi: So then what did the practice start failing?

Alex Buciu: The practice was doing [00:04:05] okay, but I couldn’t be part of that.

[TRANSITION]: I had.

Payman Langroudi: Enough.

[TRANSITION]: Of it.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. So at some [00:04:10] point I, after years of trying to work things out, I said, you know what? You can have everything. [00:04:15] I literally signed everything. You keep everything. I don’t want anything to do.

[TRANSITION]: With.

Alex Buciu: You anymore. [00:04:20] So that was one. Then we had the children and we started to my daughter. [00:04:25] In the first few years of our life, uh, spend most of the [00:04:30] time in the hospital with different, uh, with actually one medical issue that [00:04:35] kept on, uh, reoccurring. And it was extremely easy to [00:04:40] sort out now that I know what it was. Um, but they kept [00:04:45] the medical system was failing anyway. And even though we went privately and we paid private [00:04:50] hospital private still they weren’t weren’t at that level to understand. So in the whole [00:04:55] country, there were only two specialists that, uh, knew about the very [00:05:00] young children, uh, renal issues. And, [00:05:05] uh, until we ended up with one of them, we kept paying and. [00:05:10]

[TRANSITION]: He didn’t have even a diagnosis.

Alex Buciu: So they gave us, like, at some point, 90, uh, uh, [00:05:15] days of three antibiotics just to it’s like she’s gonna get cirrhosis, [00:05:20] you know, by the time she’s five, she’s not gonna have a liver anymore. No, no, no, this is so that [00:05:25] was one. Another one was the, um, judicial [00:05:30] system, which is extremely corrupt. So if you are connected, if you have [00:05:35] money, you have the law on your side.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: If not, [00:05:40] you’re you’re going to be at a loss.

[TRANSITION]: It’s it’s a lot of [00:05:45] countries I.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure I can call Romania a third world country, but a in a lot of [00:05:50] those second and third world countries, it comes [00:05:55] a lot down to who you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yep yep yep.

Alex Buciu: That’s correct.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting [00:06:00] thing. Yeah. Because some people are very good at sort of leveraging relationships [00:06:05] or some people are obviously.

[TRANSITION]: Fortunate, really good, fortunate.

Payman Langroudi: Enough [00:06:10] to have huge networks family wise and all that. And some people aren’t.

[TRANSITION]: Right.

Alex Buciu: My, my [00:06:15] network was exclusively, uh, done by me. I didn’t inherit [00:06:20] anything from my family, rather, except from some problems that I [00:06:25] had to sort them out. So not even no, no help. Not even, you know, uh, [00:06:30] so, um, I had my good network, but, [00:06:35] uh, on the other hand, I don’t want my children. I didn’t want that. You ask me why I decided to leave. [00:06:40] So that was, uh, probably the main one. I didn’t want my children to learn to [00:06:45] get away with things like, uh, calling in favours like, look, Alex is my father. Can you help [00:06:50] me out with this? And I want it to be on their own merit, you know? [00:06:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And thirdly, when my daughter started school there, she was [00:07:00] six, even though she was a good, uh, school in our, uh, hometown. [00:07:05] Uh. The the process [00:07:10] and the level of, uh, knowledge the teacher [00:07:15] had was very, very low. Very every. So we [00:07:20] started, like, look, medically is crap. Judicial crap. [00:07:25] Uh, education, education is also failing [00:07:30] and getting from bad to worse. So it’s like there’s no point, uh, my business. I told you I wasn’t [00:07:35] too happy with them. And I started to cut down my days. So I was doing part time [00:07:40] with other different clinics, so I. There’s no point. And I had [00:07:45] a friend, a dear friend of mine from probably ten years [00:07:50] before. She kept saying, Come to England. She was working in Norwich at the time. I [00:07:55] went and visited her. I think it was 2011 and I shadowed her for a few days, [00:08:00] and I was shocked by the system [00:08:05] and how many patients you’d see in a day, like in and out, in and out, when I would stay with my patients [00:08:10] and talk a lot and got friends with them and, you know, so completely [00:08:15] different. Then I was like, no, I’m not ready. At the time I was ascending, I was going [00:08:20] up, up, up, up, up. So I didn’t want to pull the brakes then. And [00:08:25] uh, yeah. So this is why I ended up in Northern Ireland. And, um, [00:08:30] few years back, I moved to England, to Peterborough. [00:08:35] This is our home town now.

Payman Langroudi: But when you made the decision to move, how [00:08:40] long after did you move? I mean, was there an amount of saving money [00:08:45] or Romania?

[TRANSITION]: You mean selling houses or whatever? Selling [00:08:50] nothing.

Alex Buciu: It didn’t have anything to.

[TRANSITION]: What was the prep.

Payman Langroudi: For it? And then. And [00:08:55] then the sort of the you know what what were you timeframe? Yeah, yeah. What were you worried about [00:09:00] coming over and what was the reality when.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Alex Buciu: Only had one worry? And that was if the [00:09:05] children would get, uh, integrated? Yeah, if they’re gonna. Because none [00:09:10] of them knew English.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, and, uh, we started with some, uh, [00:09:15] private tuition. Uh, but, uh, that was my main worry. Uh, [00:09:20] in the when we moved to northern, it was [00:09:25] the very last few days of school, so I had to, uh, like [00:09:30] a parrot, teach my daughter, say toilet, please. You know, my [00:09:35] name is Sophia. Toilet, please. I didn’t want, like, could may I go to the toilet? May I know? [00:09:40] Just basic. So she wouldn’t wet herself, you know. So [00:09:45] that was the level of English. And now she speaks like she’s the queen.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Alex Buciu: She [00:09:50] has a very posh accent. Like, tone.

[BOTH]: It down to me like it’s like. [00:09:55]

Alex Buciu: And ask her in Romanian. She understands, but she replies in English.

Payman Langroudi: And had you arranged [00:10:00] the job before you came over?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: So how did that work?

Alex Buciu: Um, [00:10:05] we we had lots of interviews over the phone and, uh, um, [00:10:10] the, uh, no, it went straight forward. It was with Bupa at [00:10:15] the time.

[TRANSITION]: So were they.

Payman Langroudi: Were they in Romania looking for dentists?

[TRANSITION]: Was that.

Alex Buciu: Um.

[TRANSITION]: How did [00:10:20] you how did you know about. My friend put.

Alex Buciu: Me in contact with, uh, them, but [00:10:25] they would go from time to time to Romania to for for recruitment. Uh, [00:10:30] yes, but I never attended any events of them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you get to England, you [00:10:35] start working, you put your kids in just a normal English school.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: And obviously difficult for them the first six months.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Alex Buciu: Amazingly [00:10:45] enough, they they love school. So again, the school in Romania was 100 [00:10:50] years behind. So even if it was not Northern [00:10:55] Ireland, not a very wealthy part of our country, um, [00:11:00] the people were lovely. The teachers, they literally [00:11:05] couldn’t wait so they would cry when we took them from when we picked them up from school, they wanted [00:11:10] to go back to school. This is something unheard of. We keep telling. Wow. Even now, they [00:11:15] they hate the holidays and they want to go back to to school.

[TRANSITION]: What a.

Payman Langroudi: Great. [00:11:20]

[TRANSITION]: School.

[BOTH]: It’s a public school.

Alex Buciu: Don’t get me wrong.

[BOTH]: They’re public school.

Alex Buciu: But my [00:11:25] daughter at least knows the difference because she had two years in the Romanian school, so [00:11:30] it’s more, uh, pupil centred. And. [00:11:35] Yeah, we’re going into philosophy now. The the way we [00:11:40] were born and communist. If you don’t count as a person, it’s the whole [00:11:45] country. Yeah. You know, so here every.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Payman Langroudi: All about the individual. [00:11:50]

Alex Buciu: Every individual counts. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So dairy as a town. I [00:11:55] mean, not a very big town, is it?

Alex Buciu: Uh, 120,000 [00:12:00] people, roughly.

Payman Langroudi: Which town were you in? Romania?

Alex Buciu: Constanza. So I was, uh, [00:12:05] born on the seaside. Sea shore? Yes. Of the Black Sea. Constanza is [00:12:10] one of the biggest cities in Romania. And it’s, uh, very, very, [00:12:15] uh, beautiful town when we don’t have tourists, which [00:12:20] is May to October, roughly. But June, July, August, September is the craziest. [00:12:25] Yeah, they litter and they’re loud and they, you know, motorcycles [00:12:30] at 3:00 racing and, um, but, uh, we have very, very [00:12:35] wide. Nice, fine sand beaches. Like 400 miles. Imagine. [00:12:40] Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Well.

Alex Buciu: Again, this, uh, the [00:12:45] corruption, uh, they started to build, uh, kicked in and they started to build [00:12:50] hotels on the on the sand on the actual beach, which is illegal. And, [00:12:55] uh, they didn’t even think it through because the sun comes from [00:13:00] the sea, like in is exactly towards east. And they put their, [00:13:05] uh, hotel. So that means from maybe 12, 1:00, uh, after [00:13:10] lunch, uh, all the beach starts to get in the shadow.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Alex Buciu: So [00:13:15] they’d be like, most, like.

[TRANSITION]: Ten.

Alex Buciu: 12, 15.

[TRANSITION]: Stories. [00:13:20]

Alex Buciu: So by by the time the sun starts to go in the second part, the [00:13:25] west west, everything is just like you’ve shot yourself in the foot. Why [00:13:30] would you do that? Like so.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your initial feelings on dairy like as [00:13:35] a as a town. It was like what didn’t have much of stuff that Constanza had, right?

Alex Buciu: No, no, [00:13:40] no.

[TRANSITION]: It’s like.

Alex Buciu: Irish English.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Parts. Yes. We [00:13:45] lived, you know, about the troubles and everything. Yes, we lived there exactly [00:13:50] where they started.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Alex Buciu: So like 500m away from where those troubles, [00:13:55] unfortunately, are still going on every Thursday, Friday, Saturday there’s [00:14:00] a riot, there’s a shooting, there’s a fire. There’s a. So [00:14:05] yeah, very, very sad. Um, because [00:14:10] we don’t look local. We were always safe. So they would look at us and like, no, [00:14:15] like they are not either or.

[TRANSITION]: And.

Payman Langroudi: Not as many immigrants [00:14:20] in Northern Ireland as.

[TRANSITION]: They weren’t in the rest.

Alex Buciu: However, in the last few years, yes, [00:14:25] there’s been lots. Yeah. So, uh, there was a love [00:14:30] for this. Um, there was only black, uh, patient, lovely, [00:14:35] lovely guy. Um, and, uh, he was my patient there, and everybody [00:14:40] knew him. You know, I cannot say names, you know, um, and everybody [00:14:45] says, oh, he’s he’s. Yeah. And I was talking to him once and he said, uh, [00:14:50] and I said, what do you do? Oh, I’m into weddings. And I was like, oh, are you a priest? I was like, no, no. He started to [00:14:55] laugh. No, no, no no no. I just do videography with drones and stuff. Oh my god. And ever [00:15:00] since he’s like, I’m not a priest. I’m not. I’m not a minister. But he said he’s [00:15:05] doing weddings. I initially thought he’s the one, you know, doing the religious [00:15:10] part.

Payman Langroudi: So then this practice was Bupa and 100% NHS.

[TRANSITION]: When. [00:15:15]

Alex Buciu: I moved in. Yes. Um, with the support of the practice manager [00:15:20] and, uh, it was very difficult to switch, uh, [00:15:25] approaches and ideas. I tried to talk to my, uh, patients [00:15:30] about the private option and discuss. And that was 2018 [00:15:35] and well when still it was fully NHS private [00:15:40] was just something very, very seldom offered. [00:15:45] And after the first year about 35% of my income was private. [00:15:50] After the second year it was 60 something percent. So I did prove [00:15:55] like, you just need to talk to the patient, explain to them the differences. Don’t, uh, go [00:16:00] by default your NHS. So you get an amalgam or you NHS, you we [00:16:05] can only get you this and that. We can offer this, this, this, that would cost this advantages, [00:16:10] disadvantages.

Payman Langroudi: So and so for that work you’d actually would like slow down and do it properly [00:16:15] and.

[TRANSITION]: I would.

Alex Buciu: Slow down. No, no I, I’m a slow dentist. No I work doesn’t [00:16:20] matter. Even if it was an amalgam I would have rubber dam on and.

[TRANSITION]: Oh really. Yeah. [00:16:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. My managers were not happy.

[TRANSITION]: I was not from that point of [00:16:30] view.

Alex Buciu: I was not efficient in their spreadsheets.

[TRANSITION]: And, you know, I was like, oh yeah. [00:16:35]

Alex Buciu: Other people see like 60, 70 patients a day. It’s like, yeah, I had like 20 today. [00:16:40] And most of them were exams and but I wanted to do the dentistry I, I loved [00:16:45] and uh, found some patients that were happy to pay [00:16:50] for that with time. I, uh, met a lovely, [00:16:55] lovely dentist and he became my mentor afterwards. Uh, very, [00:17:00] uh, out of the social media, under the radar. [00:17:05] Kieran, if you’re listening to this, love you man. Uh, [00:17:10] he he took me under his wing. He has a private practice [00:17:15] just outside Derry. Top specialist. But again, you look at [00:17:20] there’s no website or no Instagram. He’s very low profile.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:17:25]

Alex Buciu: Uh, but other top specialists from Northern Ireland. We say, okay, we recommend you go to him for [00:17:30] this full mouth restorative or whatnot. And, uh, I worked [00:17:35] a lot at that practice. And again, I gave my 100%, uh, in [00:17:40] the on the Saturdays, Friday, Saturday I would stay and do letters for the patients. So after [00:17:45] a new patient exam, a letter sometimes would be like 18 pages. So [00:17:50] that’s proper writing. Sundays would be the clinic and discuss [00:17:55] cases and he would teach me, this is how you do this. This is how you approach this. This is how you explain [00:18:00] this. So it reignited my spark, which started to be very dull by the doing [00:18:05] the NHS.

[TRANSITION]: And where did.

Payman Langroudi: You meet Kieran?

Alex Buciu: At uh.

[TRANSITION]: At [00:18:10] a course.

Alex Buciu: At a course? Yes. He gave a small lecture. You [00:18:15] know, we have to do like peer reviews.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And never done a peer review in England. But [00:18:20] they are mandatory in Northern Ireland.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, and every two years. And I [00:18:25] met him, I think, at a course, something like this, and we ended up talking. I kept interrupting [00:18:30] because I’m that guy in the first row with the hands up and asking questions. And, [00:18:35] uh, he noticed me and we started to talk and exchange numbers. Let’s [00:18:40] meet for lunch. And.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, so.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say I after my smile maker. I saw [00:18:45] you at lots and lots of courses. You’re always at courses and you’re even, [00:18:50] you’re quite, quite, quite a lot on social media and, you know, very involved [00:18:55] and curious and trying to get better all the time. And as you say, asking questions [00:19:00] and, you know, you stood out, you know, I see thousands of dentists at MSM and you stood [00:19:05] out as someone to me. And then we met each other again. And where did this come from? Like, when [00:19:10] did you become this sort of excellence driven person or were you always, I mean, were [00:19:15] you were you were you that seven year old as well, or was there a moment of inflection [00:19:20] necessarily?

[TRANSITION]: I, I.

Alex Buciu: Cannot pinpoint to a moment, uh. [00:19:25]

[TRANSITION]: Because you probably.

Payman Langroudi: Get what I’m saying about some dentists are like that and you see them everywhere, and [00:19:30] then some dentists are the exact opposite. Never want to learn anything, do anything.

[TRANSITION]: Just probably. [00:19:35]

Alex Buciu: The entourage, the my friends that were the are still the [00:19:40] top endodontists in Romania and we like challenged ourselves [00:19:45] and I was trying to I was looking up to them and trying to.

[TRANSITION]: Do.

Alex Buciu: A little bit not compete because [00:19:50] they are way ahead. Yeah, but you know, get better, get better, better, better. And [00:19:55] when I moved to UK again I.

Payman Langroudi: Stayed with you that.

[TRANSITION]: Idea [00:20:00] of improvement.

Alex Buciu: Because financially when I moved to UK I had [00:20:05] 3100. I was ashamed to say it, £3,100 in my pocket. That’s it.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: Okay. And half of [00:20:10] them were were borrowed from a friend.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Alex Buciu: So imagine I spent this in the first week [00:20:15] because I had to pay rent and the deposit and then the the apartment we got, [00:20:20] I came alone and they followed me. My wife and the kids. After a [00:20:25] few months, I had to buy literally everything from forks to duvets to.

[TRANSITION]: Salt [00:20:30] and pepper. Yeah, salt and pepper.

Alex Buciu: You know. Beanbag. Everything. Everything? [00:20:35] Yeah. Like everything. And, uh, after a week, I started to panic. Like, okay, [00:20:40] when is this the salary coming? Because I’m not gonna be.

Payman Langroudi: Thank goodness you had a job. [00:20:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, um, I had to be really careful with [00:20:50] the money. So with every course I take or everything, I look into it a lot [00:20:55] and ask lots of feedback about the course before I choose. Because if, say, like composite bonding [00:21:00] is like there’s going to be ten providers. Yeah. Um, I don’t know. Preps. [00:21:05]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. There’s so many.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. So. And I have to be again, really, really [00:21:10] careful of the courses I choose because I want to make the most of it. And [00:21:15] I’m happy with the my process of choosing courses. [00:21:20] Uh, the sometimes it takes a year, maybe more, until. [00:21:25]

[TRANSITION]: You just.

Payman Langroudi: Try and find loads of people who’ve been on them.

Alex Buciu: Look online, look on social [00:21:30] media, look on cases, look on Pierre. There’s so many resources. We have our, [00:21:35] uh, we have our WhatsApp groups with different alumni [00:21:40] from. So you ask around.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. The [00:21:45] problem is.

Payman Langroudi: Tubules.

Alex Buciu: Uh, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Not sure anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:21:50] WhatsApp group is it. What kind of thing are we talking.

Alex Buciu: So, uh, there’s [00:21:55] different. I have my friends like Romanians in UK. [00:22:00] Friends, uh, friends from, uh, the, you know, sunny, [00:22:05] sunny for the GTA. I have probably three groups with them.

[TRANSITION]: Sunny, sunny. [00:22:10] Yeah, yeah, we’re gonna.

Alex Buciu: Get to talk about him.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, we’re gonna talk.

Alex Buciu: So, uh, [00:22:15] there’s lots of dentists for dentists, Facebook, the [00:22:20] dentists on Facebook there’s different.

[TRANSITION]: So you deeply.

Payman Langroudi: Research which composite [00:22:25] course to.

[TRANSITION]: Go. I love that because I’m, I’m.

Alex Buciu: Uh not a wealthy person. I don’t [00:22:30] have anything nobody gave me ever gave me money or family help or anything [00:22:35] like this. So I really need to be really careful what I spend it on. And, [00:22:40] um, so.

[TRANSITION]: But did you.

Payman Langroudi: Ever get this wrong? Did you ever go to a course thinking it was going to be amazing? And it wasn’t. [00:22:45]

Alex Buciu: Once, once, uh, with With [00:22:50] No Name? Uh, gentlemen, that’s really, really high. Uh, [00:22:55] looked at, uh, for his area. I cannot say what he is, uh, [00:23:00] teaching because you’re gonna guess who it is. Uh, but, uh, all [00:23:05] day, all. So I had to travel to Bristol. Already [00:23:10] a clue. Uh, so for the course and, uh, all day, [00:23:15] Every question I would ask is like, ah, answer to this later. Uh, I’ll get to this later on. Oh, [00:23:20] I’m going to talk about this in the afternoon. I’m going to say, uh, we ended [00:23:25] up the course. Oh, the ask so many questions like, can you answer me? Like, yeah, [00:23:30] email me and I’ll reply to. And he never replied. So all the course was just presenting his, [00:23:35] uh, cases and, uh, upselling his big course, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: So I was very disappointed [00:23:40] that the course was not very expensive, but I left [00:23:45] with a bitter taste because I wanted to get some answers. You know, this is why I go there [00:23:50] to. Yeah, I, you know, if you ask a question, you’re stupid for a minute. [00:23:55] If you don’t ask a question, you’re stupid for the rest of your life. So I’m a true believer in this. I stay [00:24:00] in the front row, ask all the questions that I can think of when you [00:24:05] you ask me how I choose sometimes is not very, uh, straightforward. [00:24:10] Because if You’re choosing to go to a certain [00:24:15] course. Like I know restorative that I started with tiptoe now. Um, [00:24:20] nobody has done restorative deep restorative with restorative with [00:24:25] restorative with this. So they can have a objectives. Look I’ve done all restorative available and [00:24:30] this one is the best. All are gonna say they’ve done the best one.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Okay. So [00:24:35] you have to take it with a pinch of salt and to gauge it a bit.

[TRANSITION]: Very true.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. [00:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: Very true. I mean, it’s the same with even when someone’s bought an expensive piece of equipment, they [00:24:45] have to convince themselves.

[TRANSITION]: It was the right thing to do.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. Buyer’s [00:24:50] remorse a little bit, and then it starts to.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, if we’re talking these sort of year [00:24:55] courses, you know, like where you turn up eight times, I mean, you’ve got to be a pretty uncharming [00:25:00] guy for someone to meet you eight times in a year and still not like you.

[TRANSITION]: Well, [00:25:05] what I can tell you.

Alex Buciu: The first day with [00:25:10] Professor Tipton. Uh, at the first coffee break, that was like, [00:25:15] half ten.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: He already pulled me aside. I was like, look, let others answer. And [00:25:20] it’s like, in a most charming way, you know, very like, look, let others answers. [00:25:25] Uh, when I ask questions, don’t answer the first one. Let others think. Before I was so, so [00:25:30] excited. You know, I waited to to participate. And I apologise to the professor [00:25:35] to to this. And next day we met in Birmingham at the show.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:25:40] yeah.

Alex Buciu: And I apologised again and said, look, don’t confuse my enthusiasm with rudeness. [00:25:45] I’m really, really wanted to to attend your course for so many years. And I saved [00:25:50] a lot of time. It’s like, yeah, no, but yeah, I have to let others. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:25:55] what have you done? You’ve done that. What else have you done? You’ve done ours. Our composite course.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:26:00]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve done so.

[TRANSITION]: Many courses.

Alex Buciu: Wise worth mentioning.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: Uh. [00:26:05]

[TRANSITION]: Sunny schools.

Alex Buciu: So I want, I need to start with obob.

[TRANSITION]: Bob. Oh.

Alex Buciu: And [00:26:10] be jazz and Mahmoud. Amazing. Amazing guys. And unachievable they do [00:26:15] now, which is a practical continuation of the theory in Abab. The [00:26:20] the course was explained so nicely and logically, it’s impossible not to follow [00:26:25] and understand what is taught, and I struggle to understand the nitty gritty of occlusion [00:26:30] for years and read all the dry books and everything. Uh. [00:26:35] I ended up even more confused, uh, compared to when I started [00:26:40] reading the books. But after about, uh, what I can say is that everything felt [00:26:45] like a eureka moment where when you finish a big puzzle, you have put the last pieces together.

Payman Langroudi: Gone, [00:26:50] gone. Summarised the moment in aha! When [00:26:55] it comes to occlusion. What was it.

[TRANSITION]: That you.

Alex Buciu: In a nutshell. Like they.

[TRANSITION]: They [00:27:00] have.

Alex Buciu: Different modules.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but hit me. Don’t hit me with what was it? What was the [00:27:05] moment when you realised what what was it? What thing? What thing can you tell me about?

[TRANSITION]: Occlusion. [00:27:10] For me, it’s a breakthrough.

Payman Langroudi: Thought.

[TRANSITION]: For you.

Alex Buciu: For me, it’s like a spiral. Okay, [00:27:15] so you’re in a happy place, and then you learn a little bit more, and it’s like. Oh, that [00:27:20] puts everything.

[TRANSITION]: Into perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Specifically.

Alex Buciu: Okay.

[TRANSITION]: An example.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:27:25] don’t mean everything.

Alex Buciu: An example landing pads design. [00:27:30] So when you construct a crown.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: How you communicate the definition. [00:27:35] And you know there’s the tripod contact and the cusp fossa. [00:27:40] Or there are different concepts, different pancakes and different pathology [00:27:45] and whatever. This one is a very nice concept. It’s literally like a landing [00:27:50] pad. And the opposite cusp goes on the on this pad that is [00:27:55] a little bit, uh, elevated of, of the occlusal. Now, if [00:28:00] the crown, let’s say it’s a little high, you can shave off with no problem if it [00:28:05] gets worn with time. You still have a good.

[TRANSITION]: Smooth surface.

Alex Buciu: Contact spread [00:28:10] and is not locked in like it would be in a Forza or with a tripod [00:28:15] contact, which is really stable if you have tripod contact. But what happens [00:28:20] if you start to wear down one of the slopes or the tip? Yeah. [00:28:25] Then you have two contacts, which is very unstable. So that was like actually [00:28:30] makes lots of sense. You know.

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Payman Langroudi: Only is it only the tooth that the.

[TRANSITION]: The [00:28:35] crown, is.

Payman Langroudi: It only the fossa or is it the cusp as well.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, you don’t go on.

Alex Buciu: You don’t go on to [00:28:40] on the antagonist. You don’t go on you you just design the, uh. Yeah. [00:28:45] The way you designed where the contact is, is like a landing pad.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:28:50] So it’s a slightly raised area.

Alex Buciu: It’s nice.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. How interesting.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, very, very interesting. [00:28:55] Yeah. I try to talk to my technicians and wasn’t too successful.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So? [00:29:00]

Payman Langroudi: So then you have to go find a technician who does get it.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I started after [00:29:05] I started to look more into the TMD, which I always loved, because my wife [00:29:10] clenches and grinds her teeth like crazy. Uh, so I always [00:29:15] tested on her, uh, ideas. Different type of splints [00:29:20] and stuff. Uh, and once I started to understand more, then I done [00:29:25] the splint master course again with jazz. Uh, I done a few more [00:29:30] courses about, uh, TMD eye shadow jazz. Once this [00:29:35] TMD clinic. Uh, you need to know your limits with TMD. [00:29:40] You don’t want some patients. There are some patients that are way more than, uh, you [00:29:45] can, uh, you know, don’t bite more than you can chew. Some [00:29:50] are beyond what you can help with normal exercise. So I know more than a average GDP [00:29:55] about TMD and bruxism, but I also know where I draw a [00:30:00] line and say, look, I can help you up to this point. Further down you have to see a [00:30:05] physiotherapist and there are some good TMD specialist physiotherapists, I [00:30:10] mean, or surgeons or whatnot.

Payman Langroudi: But how do you know when that point comes? What [00:30:15] do you mean? You do it. You do the basic things you do and it doesn’t solve it. Then you know, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know, you’re [00:30:20] at that point.

Alex Buciu: I try to do a proper in-depth exam of the TMJ muscles [00:30:25] and everything, and already I have a provisional diagnosis. If [00:30:30] I see intermittent locking or stuff like, I know, it’s like, [00:30:35] yeah, let’s not uh, probably some exercises, of [00:30:40] course, will help, but I wouldn’t jump on a certain type of splint because there are [00:30:45] so many types of splints. And, uh, yeah, I [00:30:50] you have to know your limits. In most of the cases, it works. Exercises work [00:30:55] normal splint or even a retainer works beautifully for most of the [00:31:00] cases. But yeah, there are some things where it can make [00:31:05] it worse.

Payman Langroudi: So it sounds like you’re kind of becoming a like a I call it [00:31:10] like a super, super generalist. Yeah. Like very good.

[TRANSITION]: At a lot of things.

Alex Buciu: I [00:31:15] never, never heard.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not think of, of of going more into Endo when you got here. [00:31:20]

Alex Buciu: I was put off. I was put off, uh.

Alex Buciu: By [00:31:25] the litigious society. Yeah. So you, you can do a beautiful [00:31:30] endo and they don’t come back for the crown. Five years later, you get a letter from the [00:31:35] solicitor that the tooth broke and it’s your fault, or they don’t brush their teeth.

Payman Langroudi: I think the [00:31:40] litigious risk is just as high in general practice.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure.

[TRANSITION]: I’m not sure. I’m not sure [00:31:50] I was. I was pretty.

Alex Buciu: Put off by by.

Alex Buciu: By this.

[TRANSITION]: And are.

Payman Langroudi: You saying [00:31:55] you you didn’t have the sort of the bandwidth to become a full on specialist, and [00:32:00] without that you felt.

[TRANSITION]: At.

Payman Langroudi: Risk.

Alex Buciu: I really, really liked it. I really, [00:32:05] really liked it though. But I don’t know, maybe it was the eye. [00:32:10] So at the clinic I had my own apex locator. My own. Even now, [00:32:15] most of the materials and instruments I use are still mine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, probably [00:32:20] if I were in a specialist clinic or somewhere where I would have access to microscope access to [00:32:25] all the goodies and stuff, maybe I would be tempted to go back again [00:32:30] to my first love.

Payman Langroudi: No, but what I’m saying is, you could have even come to Bupa and say I’m a dentist [00:32:35] with a special interest in endodontics, and I want to do the endo for the [00:32:40] for the area or something.

Alex Buciu: Nobody recognises this anymore. So the questions usually were like, [00:32:45] uh, what qualifications do you have? It’s like, okay, okay, very happy with this. But what are the UK [00:32:50] qualifications you have? Like nothing. It’s like so I could know you. [00:32:55] You have to start from the bottom. Unfortunately, nobody will take you as a foreigner to [00:33:00] to this level unless you have some UK [00:33:05] recognised.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But there are lots of general dentists who only do endo. [00:33:10] Yeah, there are lots.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, but they’ve done some.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve done courses.

[TRANSITION]: Training. [00:33:15]

Alex Buciu: Around here.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah they’ve done courses. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Same sort of courses you’re doing with, you know, Obama or whatever. [00:33:20] Yeah I think I’d look into that, you know, because because your standard is probably already at that [00:33:25] level. And, you know, whether or not someone will refer to you isn’t [00:33:30] even the point yet. It’s the question of once you start doing some, [00:33:35] you start telling your employers, for instance, you’re my dentist now, you tell my dentist, Endo [00:33:40] is what I’m good at.

Alex Buciu: I want to be on restorative now, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know.

Alex Buciu: Endo. [00:33:45]

[TRANSITION]: Endo changed your.

Payman Langroudi: Position.

Alex Buciu: Endo now is I know.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Alex Buciu: Attracts me more. [00:33:50] Endo is now when you see your Uh, ex-girlfriend on [00:33:55] the street holding hands with.

[TRANSITION]: The with another guy.

Alex Buciu: The other.

[TRANSITION]: Guy’s like.

Alex Buciu: You [00:34:00] know, like, stuff like this, but.

[TRANSITION]: It’s it’s.

Alex Buciu: Past the moment, you know?

[TRANSITION]: It’s it’s. [00:34:05]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Yeah. This question of what were we built to be from the, [00:34:10] you know, dentist’s perspective? Yeah. Because you must get it now. I get loads [00:34:15] of young dentists. You know, one year out and I say to them, hey, what do you want to think? What do [00:34:20] you think you want to do? And a lot of them say, I don’t know. And I’m just trying lots of things to see what I [00:34:25] like.

[TRANSITION]: Which is.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Yeah, I get it, I get it. But don’t you agree with me in the end that, like, whatever you’re [00:34:30] really good at, you’ll enjoy. You know, it’s one of those.

[TRANSITION]: I.

Alex Buciu: Enjoyed it. [00:34:35]

[TRANSITION]: For me.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, whether or not.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Payman Langroudi: Picked Endo or perio or. [00:34:40] Yeah, I’ve picked hydrogen peroxide.

[TRANSITION]: You know, all one [00:34:45] chemical. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you’re good at, you end up enjoying. But you’re now saying, [00:34:50] having looked quite deeply into To Endo. And now getting into this sort of restorative. [00:34:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, occlusion side. You’re saying the restorative occlusion side is turning you on [00:35:00] more?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. That’s interesting.

Alex Buciu: That’s it. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: I again I enjoy many parts of [00:35:05] I don’t enjoy the surgical parts.

[TRANSITION]: I if.

Alex Buciu: An extraction turns [00:35:10] out to be surgical I haven’t assisted orders I suppress I haven’t assisted uh, enough [00:35:15] or there’s surprisingly an extra route or.

[TRANSITION]: Something.

Alex Buciu: You cannot see on the 2D.

[TRANSITION]: X ray. [00:35:20]

Alex Buciu: Then, uh, I do it surgically, but I don’t cannot say I enjoy [00:35:25] it. Yes. So I done the course with Tamar Theodossi, the masterclass. Lovely guy. [00:35:30] Lovely. Whoever wants to up their skills in the surgical should, should, uh, [00:35:35] go to his course. Great value. Um, but. And I’m [00:35:40] confident to do it, but it doesn’t attract me.

[TRANSITION]: Uh, the implants.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:35:45] because it’s surgery again, right? Yeah.

Alex Buciu: It’s not about.

Alex Buciu: Blood or [00:35:50] anything. It’s just I’ve done.

[TRANSITION]: In.

Alex Buciu: Romania, which is, um, more, uh, [00:35:55] how to say, uh, lean back atmosphere. Yeah, I’ve [00:36:00] done apicectomy. I’ve done, uh, included wisdom teeth. I’ve done, like, with a [00:36:05] surgeon next to me is like just giving me pointers. But I was hands on 100%. Like, I [00:36:10] didn’t enjoy it. I done it’s like. Yeah. Another thing, uh, you know, on my belt, you know, but [00:36:15] I didn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Enjoy it every time.

Payman Langroudi: Invisalign or.

[TRANSITION]: Anything.

Alex Buciu: I’ve done Invisalign course, [00:36:20] I’ve done Clearcorrect course. So I’ve done Invisalign just with [00:36:25] the Covid and stuff. So I didn’t do any, uh, cases. Uh, but [00:36:30] my wife had, uh, two failed, uh, uh, ortho treatments as a teenager, [00:36:35] and she was very conscious about that. And I’ve done the clearcorrect, [00:36:40] which is the same as, you know, there are two guys. Yeah. And, uh, that done [00:36:45] Invisalign, and they two partners, and they split up and [00:36:50] one moved across the street. This is in Austin, Texas, and unclear. Correct. But it’s [00:36:55] more or less, uh, similar, uh, way of, uh, approach. [00:37:00] And, uh, I’ve only done one case. Uh, my wife’s. Yeah. [00:37:05] So that’s if there’s not, uh, romantic enough to of course, just for her.

[TRANSITION]: But she.

Alex Buciu: Didn’t. [00:37:10]

[TRANSITION]: Appreciate. So you didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: You also author doesn’t make you that happy.

[TRANSITION]: Either. Yeah. No.

Alex Buciu: If [00:37:15] you would do.

Alex Buciu: It day in and day out, probably it would be very profitable. Definitely would be. But [00:37:20] on occasion, um, no. Either I do it or I don’t do it. If I do it, I [00:37:25] want to be top 5% of dentists. Yeah, and that’s my philosophy. [00:37:30]

Payman Langroudi: So why did you move from this excellent situation you had going on [00:37:35] in Derry with this, uh, Kieran.

Alex Buciu: Uh.

Alex Buciu: Several [00:37:40] personal reasons, but one of them was, [00:37:45] uh, Um. My wife was not happy there. She couldn’t find any [00:37:50] jobs. It’s, uh.

[TRANSITION]: What does she do?

Alex Buciu: Uh, she. Romania. She was [00:37:55] with a company, uh, private company, uh, gas installations [00:38:00] and stuff like this. But they would do, like, industrial level. So they would do an airport or do half of [00:38:05] a city or do a hospital or stuff. And she also done a master in, uh, I [00:38:10] didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Of course.

Alex Buciu: Uh, master in, uh, [00:38:15] uh, international affairs, something [00:38:20] something I wasn’t paying attention to my, you know, my wife said I have.

[TRANSITION]: To.

Payman Langroudi: Get [00:38:25] you in.

[TRANSITION]: Trouble. Yeah, my wife said, I.

Alex Buciu: Have, uh, two, uh, two down, down [00:38:30] force like to defect. Yeah. One is that I don’t listen to her. And second, there [00:38:35] was something else.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Alex Buciu: Uh, so she couldn’t find [00:38:40] anything. She even tried, like, a test score or something. Like, literally no job openings. [00:38:45] Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Alex Buciu: And for me, with the course is if it was a one day course [00:38:50] for me meant taking at least three days off work one travelling one the actual [00:38:55] course one. So multiplying the, the expenses and, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t [00:39:00] you.

Payman Langroudi: Think like that notion of I hear where you’re going? The [00:39:05] reason I’m asking is we came we came to London from Iran and [00:39:10] different circumstances that we had to run away. Revolution and all that. And then [00:39:15] about three, four years after we were in London, my dad said, let’s go to San [00:39:20] Francisco. And I often reflect on, you know, what my life would have been like if we had [00:39:25] gone, yeah, but my mum said, look, I’ve just figured out London [00:39:30] and it took four years to understand, you know, all the things that were down to stupid [00:39:35] things like hairdressers, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, obviously school, all that, everything. Understanding [00:39:40] how the town works. I just don’t want to go through another 3 or 4 years of doing [00:39:45] that in another new place. Did you have. Was that a thought?

[TRANSITION]: Um, no. [00:39:50] Dairy in.

Payman Langroudi: Peterborough might be not so different to each other, but.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Alex Buciu: Was. It [00:39:55] was a big move.

[TRANSITION]: It was.

Alex Buciu: But not as big move as from Romania to [00:40:00] UK.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So you were ready.

Alex Buciu: And now literally today I was telling you we have the we’re moving [00:40:05] houses. So we, I left my wife with the movers and one didn’t show up and the van broke. [00:40:10] And so it’s one.

[TRANSITION]: Of, it’s one of those days.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy that you managed to get a pass from your wife today.

Alex Buciu: I [00:40:15] promise you, I’m a man of my word.

[TRANSITION]: I promise you she is. Yes, [00:40:20] she is.

Alex Buciu: Even though we nearly divorced last night three times.

[TRANSITION]: And [00:40:25] it’s.

Alex Buciu: Like, you know, when you move, everyone.

[TRANSITION]: Is, um. So she itself. [00:40:30]

Payman Langroudi: The move itself again.

Alex Buciu: Now it’s piece of cake.

[TRANSITION]: Move.

Alex Buciu: We move from one place [00:40:35] to another.

[TRANSITION]: Did you have a job already? Yes.

Alex Buciu: She works at a school now?

Payman Langroudi: No, but did you have a job [00:40:40] in Peterborough?

[TRANSITION]: Me.

Payman Langroudi: Went before you moved. Did you.

[TRANSITION]: Arrange? You arranged that? Yeah. [00:40:45] And that was why I.

Alex Buciu: Don’t have any. I, my me and my wife are [00:40:50] are our own backup plan. We don’t have any backup plans. Yeah, okay. No inheritance, no big deposits, [00:40:55] no houses. No, we don’t own anything, you know? Yeah, the cars are a PCP, you know, but, [00:41:00] uh, so, yes, I did, uh, looked into several, [00:41:05] uh, options. And, uh, I found the absolute brilliant, [00:41:10] uh, area manager with, uh, my dentist. He moved. Now [00:41:15] he’s not area manager. He’s still in my dentist, but different, uh, job [00:41:20] and, uh, yes, I was really, really impressed with this guy. And [00:41:25] I came and met him and a couple of times, and I went to see the clinic. The clinic is a [00:41:30] normal dentist clinic. It’s not one of those new ones that are fully refurbed.

Payman Langroudi: And did [00:41:35] you even was the reason you moved to Peterborough? Simply because that’s where the job was. [00:41:40] Or was there another reason.

[TRANSITION]: To have.

Alex Buciu: Different.

[TRANSITION]: Options?

Alex Buciu: And I have been to other places. [00:41:45] Again, my dentist and my dentist. But, uh, the [00:41:50] John, the gentleman that was the, uh, area manager [00:41:55] was so, so, so helpful and went above and beyond to help me with the relocation and everything, [00:42:00] like literally waiting me at the train station, taking me to different clinics. Uh, give [00:42:05] me pointers like, oh, you should look for a house in this area, not in this area. It’s like things that you don’t know [00:42:10] when you are first day in the city. And, uh, secondly, [00:42:15] because Peterborough, I found it from all the options we had, uh, closer [00:42:20] to some friends of ours, which we didn’t even end up, uh, visiting too [00:42:25] often.

[TRANSITION]: In the meantime.

Alex Buciu: But it’s a well connected, like, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Geographic [00:42:30] one.

Payman Langroudi: Out of London.

[TRANSITION]: One hour.

Alex Buciu: And a half to everything.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Alex Buciu: So [00:42:35] we have the motorways, trains, everything.

[TRANSITION]: And was that a good note? [00:42:40]

Payman Langroudi: Was that straight away all private or was that mixed?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. So when I, when I.

Alex Buciu: Left, [00:42:45] when I left northern I said I’m going to leave NHS behind because it’s not for me. I tried, you know, for [00:42:50] years something. Yes but it. No, it’s, there [00:42:55] are some dentists that thrive in NHS and I know very good dentists that do NHS, but it’s not for [00:43:00] me. It’s good if you have like a stable list and you’ve seen them for many years and then yeah, you [00:43:05] can make some money and be happy and yeah, swings and roundabouts. But uh, for [00:43:10] me to start from scratch. No. And at this practice where I’m at and [00:43:15] I plan on retire at this practice, it’s I’m, I’m working hard to see. [00:43:20] I started from zero patients, so I only saw new patients. I didn’t [00:43:25] take anyone’s list. So yeah, it’s extremely difficult.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, many [00:43:30] of the patients are see, are nice, but many are not nice. Are [00:43:35] like fallen off the NHS register. Abusive patients. Patients that have long. [00:43:40]

Payman Langroudi: Histories.

[TRANSITION]: Of histories.

Alex Buciu: Like you’re the seventh dentist I see this month.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Alex Buciu: You know you’re [00:43:45] not going to be the best one for them. Uh, so it’s a lot of, uh, [00:43:50] work, work, work. And not necessarily you end up having them as [00:43:55] loyal patients long term.

[TRANSITION]: You know? Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Uh, if [00:44:00] you may, I wanted you just to say, because we started from jazz and we went from [00:44:05] another one that I wanted to, uh, mention as a favourite lecture was [00:44:10] Doctor Sandra. Composite course. Uh, you know, it teaches the [00:44:15] greater curve. Greater curve matrix system. He’s a fantastic speaker. And, uh, [00:44:20] besides the actual metric system, the course is, uh, such a great value as it’s [00:44:25] packed with so many pearls that touch, uh, communication, consent, [00:44:30] uh, composite bonding, direct cuspal coverage, improving the hourly rate, [00:44:35] uh, reflection on your own work. So we were asked to do audits for every single feeling [00:44:40] you do using that, uh, system. So it’s it’s absolutely top course. [00:44:45] So. Jazz and sunny. Honestly, I love these guys to bits. And, [00:44:50] uh, they, they they would be my number one, uh, recommendation [00:44:55] for anyone who wants.

[TRANSITION]: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Friends of mine. Both of them are good friends.

[TRANSITION]: Both.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, they’re they’re really, really great. [00:45:00] Great. Uh, and we started to become friends over the years, you [00:45:05] know?

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the work you do now, then.

Alex Buciu: Gerald. [00:45:10] Dentistry. Nothing crazy. Nothing. Uh, Instagrammable. [00:45:15] My nurses kept asking me to, uh, uh, [00:45:20] make an Instagram account and started to, uh, promote me. And I was like, hey, I’m not. [00:45:25]

[TRANSITION]: The.

Alex Buciu: Type to, um, but I [00:45:30] sometimes post my cases on some WhatsApp groups we’re on and [00:45:35] we discuss them and I know there’s no judgement. Nothing.

[TRANSITION]: So process the.

Payman Langroudi: Process of going from [00:45:40] zero patience to how many days are you fully.

[TRANSITION]: Booked?

Alex Buciu: Three days.

[TRANSITION]: Now you’re booked. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: For three days. So do you only work three days a week?

Alex Buciu: Yes, and I am to start at another clinic [00:45:50] now. So I was four days here and cut down to three days. And, uh, [00:45:55] I think three days is a good balance. Uh, the moment. And, uh, [00:46:00] for this.

[TRANSITION]: Clinic, how.

Payman Langroudi: Far ahead are you booked? I mean, are there spaces in your diary next [00:46:05] week?

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Alex Buciu: As we speak now, the diary has plummeted [00:46:10] in the last 2 or 3 weeks is extremely happy.

[TRANSITION]: So it’s not. It’s just.

Alex Buciu: An [00:46:15] extreme.

[TRANSITION]: Situation.

Alex Buciu: Um, usually not too far [00:46:20] ahead. I’m. I’m delivering private dentistry, and I don’t [00:46:25] want to tell them. Yeah, I help you. Yeah. Come back in six weeks or something. I want to see them [00:46:30] there and then and they pay more, but they need to get more, not better materials [00:46:35] and but also for, you know, uh, better [00:46:40] diary, uh, or for, for them and [00:46:45] quicker scene and usually I see my, my emergency patients. I [00:46:50] don’t have many, but, uh, if they are, I usually see them same day or if they call [00:46:55] for PM, I see them first thing in the morning, you know. So within a few hours. [00:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: And the kind of work you’re doing. Okay. You said general.

[TRANSITION]: General dentistry, do.

Payman Langroudi: You do things like [00:47:05] full mouth?

Alex Buciu: Not yet. I’m waiting to finish with, uh, [00:47:10] Tipton. Just to have, uh, some letters after my [00:47:15] name to to be able to officially do this. [00:47:20] Um, I wouldn’t jump to that, even though [00:47:25] lots of people are afraid of full mouth restorative again, [00:47:30] if you get it wrong, you get it wrong. Okay. Uh, but when you do a denture, isn’t [00:47:35] that the same thing? If you do a full denture, it’s like full restorative [00:47:40] anyway.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I had a prosthetic specialist, uh, Rory [00:47:45] Boyd. He and I asked him about this sort of aha kind of moment in [00:47:50] full mouth, and he said to think of it as a full denture.

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:47:55]

Alex Buciu: So that’s exactly.

Payman Langroudi: To think of it as a full denture as far as the setup. [00:48:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like you you set up the teeth.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. The angles and curves and angles and [00:48:05] all that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s interesting because I kind of one of my bugbears was in [00:48:10] dental school. They, we did a lot of time on full dentures. A lot of time I was, I was in Wales. [00:48:15] Wales. They used to I don’t know if it’s a myth or not. Yeah, but they used to say, uh, for [00:48:20] the wedding present, the parents would buy a full clearance for their.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve heard about their children. [00:48:25]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure it’s real or not, but but there were a lot of [00:48:30] patients, full, full patients in Wales and a big bit of alcohol, I think Dental course in the UK, a big bit [00:48:35] of it is full, full dentures. Yeah. Was yours.

[TRANSITION]: As well. I heard about.

Alex Buciu: It.

[TRANSITION]: In Romania. [00:48:40] No, no.

Payman Langroudi: So, so so I think a lot.

[TRANSITION]: Of.

Alex Buciu: Children.

[TRANSITION]: Man. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Don’t [00:48:45] pull out their teeth for 18th.

[TRANSITION]: But I used to think, I used to.

Payman Langroudi: Think all the time. Yeah. Of like, [00:48:50] you know, I mean at least full dentures was teeth. But we spent so much time doing things in [00:48:55] dental school that didn’t apply to your once you become a dentist and then [00:49:00] so little time on stuff that you know is quite important, right? You [00:49:05] can come out of dental school now and not have a single little bit [00:49:10] of knowledge on implants, ortho, even even silly [00:49:15] things like whitening. Yeah. They don’t discuss in dental school.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: In [00:49:20] Romania again, I was fortunate. My sister was six years. She [00:49:25] is six years older than me. Yeah. And, um, she. When [00:49:30] I went to uni, she she graduated the the [00:49:35] dentistry. Six years in Romania.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Alex Buciu: And she got the job at the wealthiest [00:49:40] dentist in Romania. Um, because [00:49:45] we recorded I want to tell you some things about, uh, this guy off [00:49:50] the record. We might talk about more, uh, but this [00:49:55] guy kept investing into this, uh, his practice, and, uh, he would come, [00:50:00] like, this weekend. We’re gonna invest. I don’t know, 200 grand, like, no problem. Three months later, like, [00:50:05] yeah, there’s a new generation of whatnot. Strip everything out, just get another [00:50:10] two. So when I went in his surgery, uh, and [00:50:15] coming from, uh, uni, uh, so after, after [00:50:20] classes, I felt like in Star Trek. So literally, if you go now on a spaceship, [00:50:25] that that was the closest I can describe the feeling. Okay. So they would [00:50:30] teach us about, uh, impressions with the copper ring. If you know [00:50:35] that old style, how do you take impressions? And I go, him and I had, like, uh, a silicone. [00:50:40] It’s like. What? Yes. They would teach us about the composites [00:50:45] that our self, uh, cure. That was the top of. Yeah. I would go [00:50:50] to him, he would have light cure and, uh, point for it was that he [00:50:55] would have only politicians and, uh, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Celebrities. [00:51:00]

Alex Buciu: Celebrities. So I met lots of musicians and, uh, um, that [00:51:05] was in the first year. Second year. I already done my first [00:51:10] feeling. Yes. And that was on one of his nurses. Um, third [00:51:15] year, I was already doing feelings and small treatments, [00:51:20] extractions, simple extractions, dentures for family and friends. Fourth [00:51:25] year I already had my endo kit and stuff like this and in the [00:51:30] fourth year we would just start. In the first three years you do more general medicine and the following [00:51:35] three years focus on dentistry because first you need to know the patient and then [00:51:40] focus on the teeth. Teeth are attached to someone. You don’t treat teeth. We treat patients with [00:51:45] teeth problems. And uh uh, one [00:51:50] when my colleagues would start to see how to do a feeling I [00:51:55] already had like a thousand fillings under my belt, you know?

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: Um, in the fifth year, [00:52:00] we opened up the clinic. And sixth year. Yeah. So the, [00:52:05] uh, what we were taught in uni, unfortunately, [00:52:10] was irrelevant, and 90% was irrelevant. Yeah, very, [00:52:15] very little. Even the teachers were, um, how they, [00:52:20] um.

Payman Langroudi: Behind the times.

Alex Buciu: Well, behind the [00:52:25] times.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Well behind. So the real dentistry, I was taught by [00:52:30] private courses, uh, courses that don’t give, like, the equivalent [00:52:35] of Cpds or something.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Yeah. And, uh, the the biggest [00:52:40] mistake you said that uni doesn’t teach this and that, but but [00:52:45] the biggest one, I would say communication.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So if I were to start again or [00:52:50] if there’s any newly graduates listening [00:52:55] to your podcast, uh, I would say in the first few years, [00:53:00] 70% invest in reading about patients psychology and [00:53:05] communication courses, not the sales. Sales is a dirty word and shouldn’t [00:53:10] be like sales. Sales should be like an ethical part of sales. But [00:53:15] communication how to talk to the patient. And I am, uh. Guilty [00:53:20] of not knowing how to talk to my patients. For many years, I would talk [00:53:25] like. Yes, you have, uh, generalised periodontitis, stage four, [00:53:30] grade C, unstable. You understand how bad it is?

[TRANSITION]: They’re like, what [00:53:35] the hell? It’s like.

Alex Buciu: So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you learn?

[TRANSITION]: Read. [00:53:40]

Alex Buciu: Read a lot. And, uh, from with patient interactions. And I understood [00:53:45] after it. It took me a good few years. Five, [00:53:50] ten years maybe.

[TRANSITION]: So you just experience.

Payman Langroudi: Itself.

[TRANSITION]: To experience.

Alex Buciu: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: And [00:53:55] when.

Payman Langroudi: You say go on a course, did you go on a communications course or read it.

[TRANSITION]: Something? I’ve been to a.

Alex Buciu: Few, like [00:54:00] ash letters.

[TRANSITION]: Uh huh. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Really really good. Course. But, um, I’m gonna [00:54:05] tell you in a bit about, uh, we keep in contact. Um, it’s. [00:54:10] You have to do a crown for a patient. It’s a completely different chat [00:54:15] you have with a 21 year old young girl and [00:54:20] a 50 year old male engineer. You do a [00:54:25] crown, but they will have a completely different set of questions and priorities. [00:54:30] Yeah, so you have to gauge, you have to adjust your conversation [00:54:35] to who you have in front of you. And if you’re like a broken [00:54:40] record and you say you have like 20 speeches for everything in dentistry, this [00:54:45] is not communication and you’re gonna, uh, end up in trouble. The [00:54:50] if you if you’re like a six out of ten delivering dentistry, six out of [00:54:55] ten, but ten out of ten, uh, communication. They’re gonna love you. You’re [00:55:00] gonna be the best dentist in the world. But if you’re ten out of ten, dentistry wise, clinical [00:55:05] wise, and five out of ten communication, you’re gonna end [00:55:10] up in lots and lots of trouble down the line.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your top tip then? I mean, it’s quite interesting [00:55:15] because when you say there are some people who who naturally have [00:55:20] it, you know, they when they walk into a room, they’re the life of [00:55:25] a party and they naturally have wonderful communication skills. And you’d imagine [00:55:30] if you want to find out the answer to these questions, you need to ask them. [00:55:35] But what I’ve noticed is often those people, they don’t realise that they have [00:55:40] it. They’re just they’re just being themselves. They’re just a natural. And so they can’t they can’t [00:55:45] pin it down. But someone like you who says you had problems in communication and [00:55:50] now you’re a good communicator, maybe someone like you can pin it down to, you know, what [00:55:55] are key points? Now, listening to people I think is.

[TRANSITION]: Be generally.

Payman Langroudi: Important generally. [00:56:00]

[TRANSITION]: So it took.

Alex Buciu: Me years to understand this, but I put it in a few words. Be genuinely interested [00:56:05] in the person you have in front of you. So generally not so how was your day? And turn around and [00:56:10] start to type on the computer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Alex Buciu: It’s like, uh, no, I’m genuinely interested in my patients. And [00:56:15] I remember saying, oh, I don’t know. My, uh, I don’t know, [00:56:20] uh, I had a bad back or something. Yeah, I see them six, six months [00:56:25] later. It’s like, first thing I. Hey, John, how are you? How’s your back? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So how [00:56:30] were.

Alex Buciu: You? Remember? It’s like. Yeah. Remember? Because again, I don’t treat it. I [00:56:35] treat the patient that has teacher attached. Yeah. So no tooth has ever [00:56:40] worked in my surgery. Someone said someone saw no tooth has ever walked into my surgery. [00:56:45]

Payman Langroudi: You put it in the notes, these things sometimes.

Alex Buciu: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s a weird.

Payman Langroudi: Or are [00:56:50] you very good with remembering people’s.

[TRANSITION]: Details.

Alex Buciu: But not.

[TRANSITION]: Difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists with [00:56:55] hundreds of patients to remember.

Alex Buciu: I’m not doing NHS though, [00:57:00] so I don’t have so many. And again, the if it’s [00:57:05] patients that I only see them once for emergency or stuff we’re going to focus on their pain [00:57:10] or swelling or whatever. But if they’re patients that come back, we start, you start to get friends with [00:57:15] them.

[TRANSITION]: And by the.

Payman Langroudi: Way, listen, I think it’s good advice to put things like this in the notes. Yeah. [00:57:20]

Alex Buciu: Not in a clinical. Yeah. Just put it on a pop up there or something. But, uh, it’s. [00:57:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a bad thing with the there’s nothing there’s nothing wrong with putting it in the [00:57:30] notes.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing wrong with putting in it. But my, my point is this that you see [00:57:35] a lot of dentists put like, uh, where the guy went on holiday in the notes, [00:57:40] and then six months later.

Alex Buciu: How was.

[TRANSITION]: The how was Italy? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People love that. [00:57:45]

[TRANSITION]: Right.

Payman Langroudi: But but it’s I if I was a dentist again. Yeah I would [00:57:50] put all sorts of information in marketing terms. They say you need to know the name of the guy’s dog [00:57:55] as.

Alex Buciu: As long as you don’t write their pain in the ass. You know, there was a case, [00:58:00] uh, I saw.

[TRANSITION]: Online a few years back.

Alex Buciu: You’re like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, like, what [00:58:05] does it mean when the.

Alex Buciu: Gdc is, like, pain in the ass.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, Jesus.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:58:10] I wouldn’t do that.

[TRANSITION]: No. Just positives. Yeah. Focus on.

Alex Buciu: The positives.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:15] want to talk about. I’m quite interested in having come from a country with issues [00:58:20] politically in your childhood. Ceausescu. [00:58:25] What you remember about that society.

[TRANSITION]: Compared.

Payman Langroudi: To afterwards. [00:58:30] And still, you know, Romania is a kind of country that’s gone through so [00:58:35] much like upside from that time till now, [00:58:40] joining the European Union that, you know, as I understand [00:58:45] everything you’re saying about corruption, you know, but overall a much richer society now than back [00:58:50] then.

Alex Buciu: I can give you my own perspective. [00:58:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, Romania unfortunately, is [00:59:00] they’re still. In the present days, even [00:59:05] though the communism in 89 was, uh, thrown [00:59:10] out the window and everything. Many of the people that, [00:59:15] uh, were leading then still live now, or their friends and, [00:59:20] uh.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Children and stuff. So the is not [00:59:25] 100%, uh, Democratic or open. And yeah, [00:59:30] there’s still some structures that are from the old days, unfortunately.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: But [00:59:35] I can tell you my experience is, uh, uh, because I was 11 [00:59:40] when the big revolution was. And Ceausescu was, uh, shot on Christmas [00:59:45] Day, that, uh. Anyway, uh, my my, uh, [00:59:50] childhood was amazing. Okay. And we we were [00:59:55] poor, but we didn’t know we were poor because everybody was poor. Okay, so, you know, the comparison [01:00:00] is the thief of joy. It’s like everybody was poor and that’s it. Yeah. Um. [01:00:05] The electricity would be cut off. [01:00:10] So life was tough in the evenings to save money. So when I was doing my homework, [01:00:15] uh, I had to do it by the faint light of a campaign.

[TRANSITION]: What time was this?

Alex Buciu: Uh, [01:00:20] 5 to 7 or 4 to 7. Something like.

[TRANSITION]: This. Three hours?

Alex Buciu: Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:25] Every evening, uh, they would do this and recognise the food and everything so [01:00:30] they can, uh, pay the external debt.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And I understand [01:00:35] at some point, 88 or 89, Romania was the only [01:00:40] country in the world that ever repaid fully their external debt.

[TRANSITION]: Right. [01:00:45]

Alex Buciu: So that’s amazing. Everybody has external debt. Yeah, they they manage to do this [01:00:50] again. I don’t mean it in a good way, but they, they in a good way. [01:00:55] I mean, that is a good way. But that was a good thing, you know, being able to, Um, [01:01:00] shops were empty. Food was rationed, [01:01:05] like one person was allowed half a loaf of bread, a quarter pack of butter and half [01:01:10] a litre of milk a day. Meat was a rare treat, and our [01:01:15] parents would sometimes queue for 12 hours. Uh, for basics at the grocery [01:01:20] store, for example, oranges only appeared at Christmas time [01:01:25] as a luxury product, and even then just a few per persons were allowed and [01:01:30] only if you’re in front of the queue. So sometimes you would queue up not knowing what they’re gonna, [01:01:35] uh, sell, you know? Uh, as children, we [01:01:40] weren’t affected, uh, by, uh, this too much because, okay, we [01:01:45] were unaware of what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: No. What, you didn’t know?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: About the hardships and, [01:01:50] uh, everything. And, uh, we didn’t know what we were missing, so, uh, [01:01:55] very late, uh, few years afterwards, we started to see like. [01:02:00]

[TRANSITION]: Proper.

Alex Buciu: Sweets and junk food and stuff. Like we ate [01:02:05] the same thing. We dressed the same, more or less because like, there were like three types of [01:02:10] shirts and.

[TRANSITION]: That’s.

Alex Buciu: It. You either have A, B or C, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, but, [01:02:15] uh, we were kids and we had like in the summer, uh, three [01:02:20] months of summer school. And as we lived on the beach, we would [01:02:25] leave at 8:00 in the morning and come back maybe at 10 p.m. it fruits off trees [01:02:30] and drink water from the hose garden hoses. And we only [01:02:35] had, like, the, uh, swimming trunks. That’s it. No slippers, no towel, no [01:02:40] nothing. Yeah. So bare feet.

[TRANSITION]: The.

Payman Langroudi: Best life, right?

[TRANSITION]: Go to the beach. The beach was [01:02:45] wild beach.

Alex Buciu: We would swim far into the sea, and the sea was, uh. [01:02:50] Sometimes it was calm, sometimes it was restless. And, uh, this is [01:02:55] how we learned how to swim. Same, uh, most of the times unsupervised. So [01:03:00] we were 30, 31, I think children in our, [01:03:05] uh, area. Yeah, it was a block of flats.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. [01:03:10]

Alex Buciu: One plus minus one year. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So nice.

Alex Buciu: When we go with 30 [01:03:15] people.

[TRANSITION]: Are you still.

Payman Langroudi: Friends with some of those.

[TRANSITION]: People? Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I.

[TRANSITION]: Still keep in.

Alex Buciu: Contact. Yeah, yeah, we’re [01:03:20] still close friends.

Payman Langroudi: When. When the revolution happened and Ceausescu [01:03:25] was killed and all that, why was there a period where things were very uncertain?

[TRANSITION]: Yes, [01:03:30] yes.

Alex Buciu: My father was high in the Navy.

[TRANSITION]: Uh-uh.

Alex Buciu: Uh, so, [01:03:35] uh, during the revolution, they kept saying that there’s terrorists. So they they kept getting [01:03:40] these. And my father was stationed and they had guns and probably every other 3 [01:03:45] or 4 days he would come home and had guns with him. And this is I remember the smell [01:03:50] of, uh, of a gun, you know, and, uh, Um, uh, [01:03:55] we are very afraid because he’s he might be shot. And, uh, it proved years [01:04:00] down the line there were no terrorists. And they would shoot. They we were. So, uh, the [01:04:05] fear was so induced that they were paranoid. Okay, so there are [01:04:10] the different military groups, and they say, oh, I spot something, but there’s another military group [01:04:15] from another unit, and they start to shoot each other and they kill each other.

[TRANSITION]: And like.

Alex Buciu: So, so silly, they never caught any [01:04:20] terrorists or any.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And um, there was like, [01:04:25] uh oh, there was a terrorist in Bucharest. They had like, uh, uh, trainers, like, [01:04:30] okay, like 100,000 people have trainers, you know, like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So [01:04:35] silly things like this, uh, it’s, uh.

[TRANSITION]: How long did.

Payman Langroudi: It take before it got [01:04:40] better? Things got better.

[TRANSITION]: Years. Years? [01:04:45]

Alex Buciu: Yeah. 4 or 5 years. When, uh, [01:04:50] the first president that, you know, the president can be re-elected twice. [01:04:55] Yeah, he got re-elected three times. Uh, I think it says a lot.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:05:00]

Alex Buciu: He was a close confidant of Ceausescu and one of in his inner circle.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:05:05]

Alex Buciu: So that was the first president in the Free Romanian [01:05:10] Republic afterwards. So what does he say?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Um, and, [01:05:15] uh, it the party, the ruling party transformed [01:05:20] and renamed, and it’s still, uh, number one in the country. [01:05:25] So what what can you say about this? You know, it’s sad. Um, [01:05:30] it’s still restless. It’s still. It’s a little bit [01:05:35] more westernised.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: But still lots of the [01:05:40] old ways.

[TRANSITION]: Uh, so you.

Payman Langroudi: Were 11 when he died? When he. When when he [01:05:45] went. And then you saying it take five, six years before there was any sort of improvement?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re [01:05:50] now around 1617, deciding to become a dentist. Why [01:05:55] dentistry?

Alex Buciu: Honestly, I cannot answer to this question I always knew. [01:06:00]

[TRANSITION]: Is going to be good at school.

Payman Langroudi: Were you top of your class or whatever?

Alex Buciu: Pretty good, [01:06:05] pretty good. Not the top one.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but.

Alex Buciu: Among, um.

[TRANSITION]: I [01:06:10] dentists.

Payman Langroudi: In the family.

[TRANSITION]: I have.

Alex Buciu: I have a auntie [01:06:15] that she’s a dentist. But that wasn’t the influence. I have lots of other [01:06:20] doctors in the family, but biggest for me, it [01:06:25] was one of the two. And if we talk more about this topic, you’ll understand why. [01:06:30] So either dentistry, but no idea why. Uh, so I [01:06:35] always thought, I don’t know, maybe when I was sleeping somebody would come and subliminals like dentist.

[TRANSITION]: Dentist, [01:06:40] you know.

Alex Buciu: Do this and wake up in the morning. He’s like, I’m gonna become a dentist. I don’t know why. Yeah. Or. And [01:06:45] the second was the, uh, any, like, uh, Um. Emergency [01:06:50] doctor. Um, the. Again, [01:06:55] going back to the communist era. Not that now is a big difference. [01:07:00] The the streets are very unsafe driving wise. Okay, so they don’t follow the rules. [01:07:05] They don’t respect on red lights. Cut you off. Lots of road rage. But [01:07:10] in the 80s was worse because there are no emergencies. There were the emergencies, but [01:07:15] just with the name. So you call an ambulance. Might might not come if they answered the phone, if they’re not sleeping [01:07:20] or.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And my mother was, um, a top [01:07:25] consultant, uh, paediatrician, uh, in the hospital. [01:07:30] Uh, but we when we drove around and we go places, [01:07:35] we would, uh, many times meet, uh, car crashes, okay, [01:07:40] with victims. And she would jump off the car, and we had, like, a small improvised, [01:07:45] uh, first aid kit Doing CPR. Stopping the bleeding. [01:07:50] Triaging. Assessing. There was no phone, no mobile phones you can call. So you had [01:07:55] to ask somebody else to drive to the nearest. So that one really, [01:08:00] really affected you. Made a deep mark [01:08:05] in in my, uh, child’s mind, uh, when [01:08:10] I was, uh, 14. Uh, so I was like, uh, [01:08:15] first aid. And it’s so important, like basic life support, first aid [01:08:20] before the first aiders come, you know?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Uh, when I was, she was [01:08:25] working crazy hours, uh, and, uh, she [01:08:30] started to have some, uh, high blood pressure and some medical issues. Uh, [01:08:35] and she was 48, and I was 14. And one afternoon I came from [01:08:40] school and we were lying in bed and we were talking, and then she stopped answering, And [01:08:45] I turned around. I remember exactly I had my first pair of [01:08:50] blue jeans. Yes. And I saw someone on the street. It was like purplish [01:08:55] colour. And that was like, you know what? Can I dye them? Can I make them? [01:09:00] I just and she didn’t answer. Like what’s going on? It was very mummy’s boy. I was like, [01:09:05] my son is to my wife. And, uh, she was [01:09:10] looks like she was sleeping. And I tried to wake her up. It was not right. And we were alone [01:09:15] at home, but she. She had a massive stroke, and she slipped into a coma. [01:09:20]

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: It took about ten minutes. Uh, just [01:09:25] by then, my father was supposed to come home. And, uh, I didn’t know what to [01:09:30] do. Like you can imagine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: What a shock. And, uh, my [01:09:35] father called, uh, the doctor. Doctor was was living pretty close. [01:09:40] She she came in 15 minutes or something. Think we took her to the hospital, [01:09:45] but she died in the next couple of days. So I [01:09:50] was. You can imagine. Shocked by this.

[TRANSITION]: How old were you?

Alex Buciu: Uh, 46 now? [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: No. Back then.

[TRANSITION]: 14.

Payman Langroudi: 14.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Wow. So, uh. [01:10:00]

Alex Buciu: Everything crumbled in my family afterwards. So she was [01:10:05] the cement?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So things started to get worse [01:10:10] afterwards. Um. And I. My mother [01:10:15] was a saint. I, I say it with my full heart. [01:10:20] Uh, I every day, I think [01:10:25] how my life would have been if she would be around. So there’s no five hours in [01:10:30] a row when I don’t think about my my mother and how it [01:10:35] started. The domino effect, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, we went through [01:10:40] some really bad patches like poverty wise. And, uh, [01:10:45] my father stood up to the, uh, occasion for that time, [01:10:50] and, uh, sorry, I get a bit, uh, and we [01:10:55] had moments when it’s like, okay, we only have this amount of money, [01:11:00] we can buy bread or we can send you for tuition, you know, so I can [01:11:05] get into dentistry. So what do we do? Okay. And we ended [01:11:10] up, uh, either, uh, getting food from, uh, grandparents [01:11:15] even though they are poor as well, or, uh, borrowing [01:11:20] some money. But he always gave me money to go to private tuition so I can [01:11:25] become a dentist. And there was no second chance. Like, if [01:11:30] you don’t make it now, he would retire next year. So it’s like, I’m not going to be able to even do [01:11:35] that.

[TRANSITION]: Wow. So your.

Payman Langroudi: Sister.

[TRANSITION]: Was in.

Payman Langroudi: Dental school at [01:11:40] this point, right?

[TRANSITION]: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Your sister was already in dental school.

[TRANSITION]: Yes, yes. So.

Alex Buciu: Uh, [01:11:45] many of the choices I had to do and things I had to go [01:11:50] through my life was like, you only have, like, one opportunity. There’s no safety [01:11:55] net. You either do it or you don’t do it. So, yeah. [01:12:00] Um, after what happened to my mother, I kept thinking, like, [01:12:05] everybody should know how to do the basic. Not that I could have done anything for her. So in [01:12:10] that small. I’m opening a small parenthesis. Um, in [01:12:15] the hospital, even though everybody knew her. It’s a big regional hospital, and, [01:12:20] uh, everybody knew her. They still wanted bribe to [01:12:25] in the first hour. If you inject some sort.

[TRANSITION]: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Heparin or [01:12:30] something.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, it can be, uh, not heparin. Uh, anyway. [01:12:35]

[TRANSITION]: Doesn’t matter. Something like that.

Alex Buciu: Uh. It can reverse [01:12:40] or limit the damage. Uh, and they wouldn’t, uh, [01:12:45] give it to her for about a day and a half. They wanted bribe. And my father said, [01:12:50] I’m not gonna bribe you. You know who she is. And you know. And you have it here. And they said, no, [01:12:55] we don’t have it.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Alex Buciu: And then after a day and a half [01:13:00] again calling in favours and stuff, they, uh, give it to her. But [01:13:05] what’s the point? It’s one hour, not 36 hours. Anyway, uh. [01:13:10] After this again, I started to see, uh, that [01:13:15] first aid is very important and, uh, uh, throughout. [01:13:20] So up until when I left, uh, Romania, I kept trying and I talked. [01:13:25] I ended up in some situation when I talked to top politicians, uh, guys from [01:13:30] the education minister, uh, guys who had power [01:13:35] and they could with a cold. They could make it happen. Yeah, I said, I’m gonna do it for free. I [01:13:40] have some friends that work in the emergency services. I know how to do this. [01:13:45] I’m gonna go and teach them for free. First basic life support and then dental [01:13:50] education.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Lots of promises and nothing happened. Nothing? Nothing, nothing. [01:13:55] I said I’m doing it on my own time and with my own resources. [01:14:00] And it’s like, yeah, but, you know, it’s complicated. If you do it for one, then you have to do it for everyone. It’s [01:14:05] like, do it. I’m showing you and I’m giving you the know how.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Anyway. [01:14:10] Nothing happened. I take it as a big failure this time because I tried [01:14:15] for so many years, I couldn’t make it.

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Alex Buciu: The only thing I could do is at the same hospital where my [01:14:20] mother was admitted, and later she died. I volunteered as [01:14:25] a doctor, and for a few years, I was a volunteer [01:14:30] there. Uh, the major trauma and resuscitation. Um, uh, [01:14:35] room uh, again with calling in favours. [01:14:40] So I offer a volunteer and they are short staffed and they still couldn’t go through unless [01:14:45] I. And uh, it was again another moment of growth [01:14:50] where, um, you realise your daily struggles are nothing compared [01:14:55] to the, the, the tragedies you see there. So I [01:15:00] don’t want to turn this podcast into something dark, but I have some examples [01:15:05] or one example, if you want to say you can edit it and cut it [01:15:10] afterwards, you know.

[TRANSITION]: This is quite dark podcast.

Alex Buciu: Um, it, uh, so [01:15:15] I it’s okay. Um, again corruption. Yeah. 18 year old girl [01:15:20] received for her, uh, birthday the driving license from her father without taking any [01:15:25] classes or anything. So like. Yeah. There you go.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, Porsche. [01:15:30] Okay. 200, 300 horsepower or something. First thing, she [01:15:35] floors it with three other people in the car, right into a concrete [01:15:40] pillar. Yeah, they all die.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, [01:15:45] uh, they start to bring them in bags. Yeah. The black [01:15:50] bags and bags. Yeah, yeah, black. Uh, you know, [01:15:55] the. And the father comes with a suitcase, like huge suitcase. [01:16:00] The one that you would check in. Yeah, full of euros. I don’t know how many millions were there. Like, [01:16:05] we’re talking millions.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: And brought it to the. And he said, like, save my daughter. [01:16:10] Say like your daughter is in three bags. They brought it here. But literally there’s [01:16:15] like Lego. Yeah. There’s not much. Please, please, please. And then started to [01:16:20] realise what? Because she died of his stupidity.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: He gave [01:16:25] her.

[TRANSITION]: The. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: Car and the driving license. Like. And she killed [01:16:30] herself within an hour. Yeah. And he fell on his knees and he started to pull his [01:16:35] hair. So when you say like I’m pulling my hair.

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Alex Buciu: That was literally. Yeah. When [01:16:40] he realised this. So they have the money. Just save my daughters. Like money [01:16:45] is nothing.

[TRANSITION]: For.

Alex Buciu: For for this situation. It’s too late. [01:16:50] And I had other things. I think when I would leave there, I stayed in my car [01:16:55] like I’m so fortunate. I’m so grateful for my life. I would drive on [01:17:00] the very, very slow, like it was 2 or 3:00 at night. First lane, like [01:17:05] a like an old man, like.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Alex Buciu: My God, I just want to get safely to my to my family. You know. [01:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: You told me you nearly died twice.

Alex Buciu: Ah, yeah. Yeah. So once [01:17:15] when I was 15, um, I [01:17:20] was, uh, first time, uh, with some [01:17:25] irresponsible adults, uh, that knew how to ski like a professional. [01:17:30] Yeah. And, uh, they say top of the mountain, and they chose the, [01:17:35] you know, they have, like, colour coding. Black would be like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Are you really [01:17:40] sure?

[TRANSITION]: Are you like, it’s like this.

Alex Buciu: For experts only. They chose the black one and [01:17:45] say, yeah, it’s very simple. I literally had a 32nd training. It’s like, yeah. So you keep the skis [01:17:50] like this, you lean on this side to lean on the other side. And if you want to stop, [01:17:55] you do this. It’s like okay, okay, like okay. And they left. It’s like okay. [01:18:00] And I tried a little bit a little bit. And after about half an hour [01:18:05] it was a very narrow path, like literally the two skis stuck together. Yeah. Uh, [01:18:10] Cliff and, uh, big fall on the right hand side and and, [01:18:15] uh, big rock on the left. Yeah. And I went and this [01:18:20] one started to slip, and then the other one slipped, and then, like, 150m down.

[TRANSITION]: It was [01:18:25] like fell.

Alex Buciu: Vertically Nearly. And then he started to go sweet like this. And [01:18:30] at the end there was a tree fallen. And in I went with my [01:18:35] butt first into the tree in between two big branches. So that was really lucky. [01:18:40] Otherwise I would have been impaled, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, I was like. [01:18:45]

[TRANSITION]: Were you okay? Nothing.

Alex Buciu: No scratches?

[TRANSITION]: No nothing.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, but it felt like I fell for [01:18:50] hours. You know, like, it felt like a really, really long fall. So look from one. Anyway, [01:18:55] they they were somewhere in front. They stopped. Are you okay? Yeah. Okay. On the. [01:19:00]

[TRANSITION]: Left. It’s like, what the hell, man? It’s like. Really?

Alex Buciu: And [01:19:05] the second time was after Covid, which was extremely stressful for, um, for [01:19:10] me because, again, we, uh, lived paycheque by paycheque, and, uh, [01:19:15] I didn’t know what to expect. And I took what the government said seriously [01:19:20] and literally done everything by the book and try to [01:19:25] be good while others didn’t care. I regret [01:19:30] being that type of person now. Um. And, [01:19:35] um. There were two other things that happened [01:19:40] in 45 minutes. One, uh, fight with, uh, an area manager because [01:19:45] I had booked a trip to Romania after 1 or 2 years, something [01:19:50] like this, and say, no, no, we’re going to open the doors in June. So, [01:19:55] um, you have to be here. It’s like I worked alone for 12,000 [01:20:00] patients in the, uh, during the lockdown and everything. I think I deserve [01:20:05] a week off. And I was like, no, no, no, uh, we didn’t get to an agreement. [01:20:10] And immediately afterwards, there was a very famous among dentists [01:20:15] in UK, a financial advisor who’s a crook. And, uh, I [01:20:20] paid him to, um, sort. Some income protection [01:20:25] for me. Some, uh, months just before the, uh, Covid [01:20:30] started, and, uh, he didn’t give me any proper, [01:20:35] uh, offers like we talked about. And, uh, I lost a [01:20:40] big amount of money, uh, to him. I said, look, you didn’t give me what you [01:20:45] promised.

Alex Buciu: Either you give me the money back or give me the offers or something. It’s like, now what? You’re gonna do that [01:20:50] type of attitude. Anyway, that was. Both of them were in 45 [01:20:55] minutes, you know? And, uh, I started to feel my ears popping and, uh, nothing [01:21:00] hurt or anything, but I felt like, okay, I think I have high blood pressure, and I measured. [01:21:05] I had a monitor. It was, uh, 19 over [01:21:10] 14, something like, okay, I’ll stay in bed a bit and then, uh, 21 [01:21:15] over something like, okay, that’s not good. I called the GP, they said, go [01:21:20] to the hospital. I went to the knee again. They were just opening [01:21:25] after the first lockdown. Were still freaked out at this point and [01:21:30] 16 hours in the knee. And they kept [01:21:35] popping pills and injections and stuff. And the consultant comes. It was about 12:00 at night [01:21:40] and uh, said, uh, well, we tried [01:21:45] everything. So from the legal point of view, I need to inform you that in six hours, [01:21:50] either you die, you go blind, you lose a limb or your kidneys, [01:21:55] uh, fail because nothing is working. So I’m sorry to say this, but there’s [01:22:00] not much we can do. We tried everything.

Payman Langroudi: Was it? Blood pressure was the problem?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So [01:22:05] they.

[TRANSITION]: Kept.

Alex Buciu: Giving me these drugs, and they kept on growing. Going up. [01:22:10] Yeah. Uh, six hours later, they put me into a [01:22:15] research room. Is preparing for the worst. I was extremely [01:22:20] tired, so that’s the only thing that I felt. So I really want to sleep. I would sleep on my feet. It’s like [01:22:25] they wouldn’t let me sleep. And then a nurse came and said, look, we can get you. [01:22:30] What religion are you? It’s like, that’s a weird question to ask, you know, but I didn’t [01:22:35] realise at the moment. And, uh, she said, we want to [01:22:40] bring a priest to you just to talk to someone. And it’s like, this is when I panicked. This [01:22:45] is when I said, okay, that’s that’s pretty severe, you know? So I took my phone [01:22:50] and messaged my wife, this is my pin to the car. This is the bank account, username and [01:22:55] password, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Everything.

Alex Buciu: Do this today. I mean, get the money [01:23:00] out of my account today. Because if I die, you don’t have access. It’s not a joint account. And then [01:23:05] I recorded a voice message on WhatsApp for my kids. I said, [01:23:10] yeah, yeah, that was really. Yeah, that that this is when I thought, that’s it, end [01:23:15] of the line. And, uh, they kept putting things [01:23:20] into me. And at some point, about two hours later, it started to go [01:23:25] down a bit.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So was it stress?

Payman Langroudi: It can’t be.

[TRANSITION]: Just just [01:23:30] stress.

Alex Buciu: So it’s genetic. I’m predisposed to this. Again, my mother [01:23:35] had it, and, uh, she died young. Uh, and, [01:23:40] uh, also the Covid, [01:23:45] uh, stress, the stress that was going to happen. Are we going to die? Is it.

[TRANSITION]: Really before.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:23:50] know the vaccine? Right.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: The vaccine. Covid vaccine.

[TRANSITION]: What [01:23:55] about.

Payman Langroudi: All sorts of, uh, people said they had issues with the Covid. [01:24:00]

[TRANSITION]: Vaccine? Yeah, I had the Pfizer. I had the.

Alex Buciu: Pfizer, the [01:24:05] second dose as well. First and second. I haven’t done it afterwards. Uh, [01:24:10] not with Pfizer, understand, with others, other brands. So [01:24:15] it was fortunate that way. Uh, but yes, I had patients coming and they say, [01:24:20] look, ever since that, it was instantly I mean, they had it and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, [01:24:25] what a story, man.

Alex Buciu: I don’t want to accuse [01:24:30] anyone of anything, but once you see so many cases, you [01:24:35] you start to see a pattern. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Normally at this point I would say let’s get to the darker part [01:24:40] of the board.

[TRANSITION]: But we’ve been.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve been to some.

[TRANSITION]: Dark parts.

Payman Langroudi: And really, I want to ask [01:24:45] you a question about mistakes. We asked this question all the time. Yeah. Um, so [01:24:50] that we don’t all have to make the same mistakes. What comes to mind when I say clinical errors? What [01:24:55] clinical errors have you had?

Alex Buciu: We talked about one clinical the communication. [01:25:00] That was my top one I would say.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah but.

Payman Langroudi: What case I wouldn’t like a case where [01:25:05] you made a mistake.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Alex Buciu: Not the [01:25:10] no particular one comes to mind. I’m very critical with all of my cases [01:25:15] or the conversations I had in the first part of my career. I know [01:25:20] I could have done much better. Um, there wasn’t a case where [01:25:25] something happened or led to a complaint or nothing like [01:25:30] this, but maybe I could have explained it in a better way. So the patient [01:25:35] understand, uh, the gravity of the situation. You know, [01:25:40] uh.

[TRANSITION]: I’m not going to.

Payman Langroudi: Let you get away with this.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not going to let you get away with that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:25:45]

Payman Langroudi: Look, you’re an experienced dentist. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean? You’ve [01:25:50] made many mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: In.

Alex Buciu: Communication wise. I’ve been many mistakes in all. [01:25:55] All sorts of my life.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, mistakes. Okay. Another one.

Payman Langroudi: And it doesn’t have to [01:26:00] be communication.

Alex Buciu: Not leaving. Giving too many chances to a place. Giving [01:26:05] too many chances to a clinic or clinical mistakes. Clinical [01:26:10] mistakes?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: I didn’t pull [01:26:15] out the wrong tooth. I didn’t do that. Very common. Maybe a file broken [01:26:20] into the canal, which.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Alex Buciu: A.

[TRANSITION]: Feeling. [01:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not accepting it.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Alex Buciu: Okay. Let me think. And mistakes of [01:26:30] veneers that patients were happy with them but weren’t.

Payman Langroudi: Go and tell me [01:26:35] that story.

[TRANSITION]: Tell me that story.

Alex Buciu: So some veneers I did for, uh. That was my first veneer case.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:26:40]

Alex Buciu: But back in Romania, they were okay. She loved [01:26:45] them, but they were too bulky. I keep looking now. I still have the photos, and I go back like, oh my [01:26:50] God, they look like the the orbit, you know, um.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:26:55] Romania though, the people just accept it and move on.

[TRANSITION]: She was happy. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: She started from a [01:27:00] bad place anyway.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I have other.

[TRANSITION]: Cases that were brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: On reflection, [01:27:05] what did you do wrong there? You didn’t prep enough or you used the wrong technician or National.

Alex Buciu: Recognition was [01:27:10] good that the condition was better than I was he? He [01:27:15] was a crazy technician, uh, and he taught me. He was the first one. He gave me [01:27:20] books like, uh, porcelain laminated veneers. Yes. Like, look, Alex, you have to read all [01:27:25] these. You have to do this. Uh, he was the one that, uh, pushed me into [01:27:30] magnification, and he said I had money saved for an apartment, and I bought a microscope, [01:27:35] and my wife flipped. You know, like, it’s like I said, I bought my unhappiness, [01:27:40] and I keep remembering. I bought mine because now I’m never happy with, uh, how [01:27:45] my work. So I been the crown, and I get another one, and I been that one. And I had the. [01:27:50] So maybe he he put this one in my head as well. The perfectionist type [01:27:55] which.

[TRANSITION]: The mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Come to mind.

[TRANSITION]: Mistakes, mistakes.

Alex Buciu: I’m trying to think. Treating, [01:28:00] uh discounting [01:28:05] severely. Discounting counting for friends and family prices. [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s a mistake?

Alex Buciu: Yeah, because I ended up at a loss and I didn’t appreciate [01:28:15] it anyway.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Alex Buciu: And in Romania they all my patients had my private number. [01:28:20] They would call me like 11:00 at night. It’s like Alex, I was thinking [01:28:25] do you remember what I told you. He’s like look man, is it urgent. No. It’s like, why would you call me Saturday at 11:00?

Payman Langroudi: When [01:28:30] I was a dentist, I’d give my number to all my patients and they’d never call.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Never [01:28:35] call. Um, so you don’t want to go down any further [01:28:40] errors?

[TRANSITION]: No, honestly, I’m not. I’m not trying to.

Payman Langroudi: Without mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, [01:28:45] I look.

Alex Buciu: If I’ve done some mistakes, maybe.

[TRANSITION]: The patient didn’t return and I.

Alex Buciu: Wasn’t aware of.

[TRANSITION]: That. [01:28:50]

Alex Buciu: Um, taking on patients where I knew I didn’t click [01:28:55] in with them. And I knew.

[TRANSITION]: Something was telling you not to do it.

Alex Buciu: So I now [01:29:00] I’m very filtering much better red flags. [01:29:05]

[TRANSITION]: But never mind.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to other questions. What [01:29:10] stands out to you as a lecture memorable lecture that you went to? Maybe the most [01:29:15] memorable lecture that you.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Alex Buciu: The I [01:29:20] mentioned already, uh, jazz and, uh, Sonny’s. [01:29:25]

[TRANSITION]: Did you ever go to lecture?

Payman Langroudi: For me, it’s one of one of the one of the ones that I remember. [01:29:30] I mean, brilliant lecture.

Alex Buciu: No, it’s on the to do list at some point, but I [01:29:35] want to go shadowing him. It’s for days ten, ten.

[TRANSITION]: Grand or something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:29:40]

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Alex Buciu: But I did went to, uh, Dominic [01:29:45] Domenico Massironi, which is the. I think these two are the top guys [01:29:50] in porcelain veneers anyway.

[TRANSITION]: Is that good?

Alex Buciu: Yeah. Yeah, it [01:29:55] was just a one day. Yeah. Theory. And, uh, at lunchtime [01:30:00] again, I asked questions. He took me by the shoulders and, like, come with him. And he went [01:30:05] to the front when they were selling his books. Do you have this book? Yes. Do you have this book? No. Okay. You have to buy this [01:30:10] one. Uh, so Alex will buy this. Okay. They’re they’re like twice the price. They will buy [01:30:15] them normally, you know, it’s like, do you have this new set of birds like. No. Okay. He wants this as well.

[TRANSITION]: No way. [01:30:20]

Alex Buciu: So I paid for in that ten minute break more than I paid [01:30:25] for the course. You know.

[TRANSITION]: Like I couldn’t say no, you know.

Alex Buciu: But no. Lovely, lovely [01:30:30] guy. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What stands out as your favourite Dental book? Get [01:30:35] up girls, a good book.

[TRANSITION]: No [01:30:45] I can’t no.

Alex Buciu: No, honestly, it’s a blank, uh, about [01:30:50] about, uh.

[TRANSITION]: For me, the lecture.

Payman Langroudi: Did you ever come across Mike wise book that [01:30:55] it’s out of print now, but it’s management of failures and restorative dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: Very [01:31:00] brilliant. You have to WhatsApp.

Alex Buciu: Me.

[TRANSITION]: The.

Alex Buciu: Cover.

[TRANSITION]: Or something.

Payman Langroudi: He was he was the undisputed [01:31:05] number one dentist in the UK when I was just qualifying. Everyone like everyone had said [01:31:10] it. He’s a top guy and he’d written this giant book. Contestants on [01:31:15] failures and, you know, like post crown failures. Those just failures, man. Excellent. [01:31:20] Excellent book. But go on. You said.

Alex Buciu: About the lecture.

[TRANSITION]: The.

Alex Buciu: I [01:31:25] think the word Eureka again, a type of moment [01:31:30] I try to understand bonding long time and [01:31:35] try different systems and try different that. And again you have a better system. [01:31:40] It’s more forgiving to your mistakes. Okay. So it helps you with up to a point. [01:31:45] And the best one was in Romania. And it was a free [01:31:50] presentation by a guy that was very misunderstood. So again, [01:31:55] very niche and very he kept going to international [01:32:00] congresses and bring, uh, information from there. [01:32:05] Um, so it was I think that was a very [01:32:10] memorable, uh, when everything again fell into place, it’s like, oh, so [01:32:15] this is how you actually edge, this is how long you can. It’s like, yeah, [01:32:20] you keep the edge. 20s. It’s not 20s. Uh, it’s 20s for a young [01:32:25] child, let’s say enamel or for a old man’s [01:32:30] enamel, you know, like there’s no there is no. Forget about time. You have to look [01:32:35] and know what to look when you do this. That’s interesting how you bond. You bond this. And how long [01:32:40] do you scrub which. How? Yeah. So the [01:32:45] wet, how wet do you want the dentine to wet. Is there a two wet. Is there [01:32:50] two dry is there. So he put everything and I would have paid a fortune [01:32:55] if I knew the value of that lecture? Yes, but [01:33:00] he was like, for free.

Payman Langroudi: You get yourself into the biomimetic kind of dentistry as [01:33:05] well.

[TRANSITION]: I’ll [01:33:10] take that as a not really. I’m.

Alex Buciu: I’m [01:33:15] trying to think of myself as a good general dentist. [01:33:20] Nothing too crazy. Nothing.

[TRANSITION]: The reason I’m asking is.

Payman Langroudi: Those guys tend to be some of the happiest dentists [01:33:25] I come across, and who obsess about the amount of wetting of the the dentine, the way [01:33:30] you’re saying. Of course, biomimetics isn’t about that. It’s about everything else they obsess about. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Even [01:33:35] again, I think there are some, uh, like, waves or currents [01:33:40] in dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: Fashions.

Alex Buciu: Fashions, yeah. Then they are for three, four, five years, [01:33:45] and then they die.

[TRANSITION]: Off a little bit.

Alex Buciu: So I try to look long term and see what works. Long [01:33:50] term.

[TRANSITION]: And.

Alex Buciu: Evidence based dentistry long term.

[TRANSITION]: Sure, sure.

Alex Buciu: Um, [01:33:55] Even with the, uh. Yeah, [01:34:00] the like the stains in the fissures. I’ve done this, and it’s for me. It’s not for [01:34:05] the patient.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Buciu: And, uh, some patients actually.

[TRANSITION]: Say, like, [01:34:10] well.

Alex Buciu: I paid lots of money, and I want the white tooth. He’s like, yeah, but it matches all [01:34:15] the others. Yeah, but this is white. I want to know that I paid. Uh, okay. Give me the [01:34:20] the rubbers. You know, like, but even [01:34:25] the design, the there are some occlusal, uh, shapes [01:34:30] that you need to do. I wouldn’t go crazy with tertiary [01:34:35] anatomy or stuff like this.

Payman Langroudi: Even in anterior I wouldn’t, man.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: Even in anterior.

[TRANSITION]: And go.

Alex Buciu: To, like.

[TRANSITION]: Even.

Payman Langroudi: Secondary anatomy most patients don’t [01:34:45] like. You know.

[TRANSITION]: Just a little.

Alex Buciu: Bit depends on the age. Depends on.

[TRANSITION]: The.

Alex Buciu: Yeah you have to gauge [01:34:50] it. But I would maybe do a secondary anatomy. Just a.

[TRANSITION]: Hint.

Payman Langroudi: Again for you. [01:34:55]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s some dentists who tell me I [01:35:00] firstly educate my patient on secondary anatomy, and then then we put it [01:35:05] into the veneer, for instance. Yeah. And okay, I get it. But if [01:35:10] I could push a button and dentists could learn primary anatomy. Yeah, I’d [01:35:15] be over the moon.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because that’s the one.

[TRANSITION]: That’s the key.

Alex Buciu: First thing. Yeah, the first thing.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [01:35:20] people obsessing over secondary and primary wrong.

[TRANSITION]: Or.

Alex Buciu: Shade.

[TRANSITION]: Over.

Payman Langroudi: Shade. Yeah. Yeah, [01:35:25] yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So if you.

Alex Buciu: Get the.

[TRANSITION]: Right.

Alex Buciu: Shape, you get away with.

[TRANSITION]: A.

Payman Langroudi: Lot. [01:35:30] You get away.

[TRANSITION]: With it instead of a three. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely. It’s been a massive pleasure having you, man. [01:35:35] I’m gonna move on to the final questions.

[TRANSITION]: Lovely.

Payman Langroudi: The final questions. It’s about dinner party. [01:35:40]

Alex Buciu: Dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you have? [01:35:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Your mum.

[TRANSITION]: First. [01:35:50] You got it. What are you gonna say For.

Alex Buciu: First time, I get asked this question. I saw that you [01:35:55] ask your, uh, guests. So. Yeah, with my mother. Yes. Uh, even though it’s 30 [01:36:00] something years, uh, odd years since she passed away. Uh, [01:36:05] yeah, I still think about her and, uh, keep wondering how life would [01:36:10] have been if she’d be around, but definitely. And I [01:36:15] would want her to see me how I am now and to see my, uh, [01:36:20] evolution over the years.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: But, uh, yeah, [01:36:25] probably, definitely, definitely. This would be my first choice, the second dinner. So [01:36:30] I go into the past. I want to go into the future. I would take my kids for dinner and see. Have [01:36:35] I been a good father to you?

[TRANSITION]: Your future.

Payman Langroudi: Kids?

[TRANSITION]: My kids? Your current in the future? [01:36:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My future kids. Your future kids.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a.

[TRANSITION]: Future.

Alex Buciu: Version.

[TRANSITION]: Of my kids.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting.

Alex Buciu: Just to.

[TRANSITION]: See.

Alex Buciu: Have I done right by you have my teachings. [01:36:50] Uh, uh, helped you in your life [01:36:55] or have they traumatised you? You know, like, my experience is because I had a pretty [01:37:00] difficult life.

[TRANSITION]: Are you the.

Payman Langroudi: Good cop or the bad cop at [01:37:05] home?

Alex Buciu: I’m the realistic cop.

[TRANSITION]: Bad cop? [01:37:10] Yeah. Are you the.

Payman Langroudi: Are you the enforcer? [01:37:15]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And your wife’s the kind of less.

Alex Buciu: She’s tried to be as well, but she. [01:37:20]

Payman Langroudi: She doesn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Know how much.

Alex Buciu: I love them.

[TRANSITION]: Too. Don’t get me wrong, but. Father [01:37:25] figure. Father figure.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not. I’m not.

[TRANSITION]: Father figure.

Payman Langroudi: My wife’s the enforcer in our [01:37:30] house. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Alex Buciu: No, they need to know the limits. Because otherwise.

[TRANSITION]: My.

Payman Langroudi: Wife sets [01:37:35] those limits.

[TRANSITION]: Lucky man, lucky man.

Alex Buciu: Uh, [01:37:40] for the third dinner again, it’s very, very difficult to to [01:37:45] choose. I’m gonna have, a, uh, options [01:37:50] either I again, I reflect on my own life, and either I go [01:37:55] for Aristotle and go for trying to find the right balance in [01:38:00] life and median life, and not stress as much because I am, uh, [01:38:05] stressing sometimes too much for things that I cannot [01:38:10] control and I cannot accept things that, uh, I should I cannot change, [01:38:15] uh, or the Stoics, you know, the Marcus [01:38:20] Aurelius or Socrates or Epictetus or, uh, just [01:38:25] to be, uh, more resilient to the hardships of [01:38:30] life and take it to the chin and move on, you know, or, [01:38:35] uh, uh, Mike Tyson.

Payman Langroudi: Mike [01:38:40] Tyson.

[TRANSITION]: Mike Tyson.

Payman Langroudi: What a combination of people we’ve had there. [01:38:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Your mum, your children.

Payman Langroudi: That makes sense. Marcus [01:38:50] Aurelius and Mike Tyson.

[TRANSITION]: Do you see?

Payman Langroudi: I saw Mike Tyson on Joe Rogan. Was [01:38:55] very interesting. 3.5 hour conversation.

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, very. You should look it up.

[TRANSITION]: You should look it up.

Alex Buciu: Do [01:39:00] you see why the third dinner? Is there any common? [01:39:05]

Payman Langroudi: No.

[TRANSITION]: It’s the.

Alex Buciu: Discipline.

Payman Langroudi: Discipline? [01:39:10]

Alex Buciu: Discipline and honour. Honour. Again, Mike Tyson, the evolution from [01:39:15] chaos to control. From animal to philosopher. [01:39:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Alex Buciu: Um.

[TRANSITION]: It’s interesting. I.

Alex Buciu: I didn’t [01:39:25] do boxing. I done other martial arts, and I trained with [01:39:30] some later in life, uh, some very dangerous people that I’m [01:39:35] gonna tell you offline. Uh, but, uh, Mike [01:39:40] Tyson, if you saw his.

[TRANSITION]: Face. [01:39:45]

Alex Buciu: After he got released from that longer term prison. [01:39:50] He was not a human. He was something else. Yeah. Don’t. [01:39:55] Don’t remember. He was a fighting a white guy. Peter. Something. And [01:40:00] his eyes were crazy man’s eyes. So the guys I was training in, [01:40:05] uh, fighting, they taught me about the crazy eyes. And they say, you [01:40:10] look on the street and you’ll find if you know what to look for, you’re gonna see crazy eyes. And he had crazy [01:40:15] eyes.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Alex Buciu: Um, so yeah, he, he [01:40:20] had discipline and I don’t know, I really need to watch that, uh, interview. You said [01:40:25] um, he said Mike Tyson when he is at his peak, he say [01:40:30] he cried before he said this in the interview. He would cry in [01:40:35] the locker before going into the fight.

[TRANSITION]: He said.

Alex Buciu: Once I go into the ring, I [01:40:40] cannot control myself and I know I’m gonna make them suffer. I might kill them and their family [01:40:45] is gonna suffer as well.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Alex Buciu: So he was beyond. [01:40:50] Yeah, but he controlled it later. Towards [01:40:55] retirement.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Alex Buciu: So this is what a good man he became. [01:41:00] He was a bad man.

[TRANSITION]: I like to start with.

Payman Langroudi: I liked.

[TRANSITION]: Him, but.

Alex Buciu: At the end. This [01:41:05] is how you are. Good. When you have the monster inside of you, you’re capable of violence. [01:41:10] Yeah, but you refrain it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: This is how you are a. True [01:41:15] man. When you can control it. Otherwise, if you’re weak, you cannot be good. [01:41:20] There’s no virtue in that. I saw a very nice podcast [01:41:25] about this, uh, this topic. Very nice. If you’re weak, there’s no choice. You [01:41:30] have to be good. There’s no kindness in that. You’re just weak. But if you’re [01:41:35] capable of violence, capable of, uh.

Payman Langroudi: And you choose kindness.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. And you.

Alex Buciu: Choose. [01:41:40]

[TRANSITION]: This is when you have.

Alex Buciu: You’re a good man.

Payman Langroudi: You’re interesting.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I definitely [01:41:45] we can talk for many more hours.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:41:50] about the final question? Is a deathbed question?

[TRANSITION]: Deathbed?

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice [01:41:55] for your loved ones, for the world.

Alex Buciu: Be kind. [01:42:00] Yeah. I wanted to say more things about [01:42:05] my thoughts about religion and racism and stuff. But next time.

[TRANSITION]: Next [01:42:10] time.

Alex Buciu: No no no no no.

[TRANSITION]: Go on.

Alex Buciu: So, uh.

[TRANSITION]: Do you believe.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in God?

Alex Buciu: I [01:42:15] believe we’re part of something greater. I [01:42:20] don’t want to put a name to it or something. And even [01:42:25] if I would believe in God, why would my God be the real God when there are 5000 others? [01:42:30] And, you know. So I’m. I’m right, and 4999 are wrong. Yeah. [01:42:35] Um, but there’s definitely more to it. The complexity [01:42:40] of the DNA structure, even the, uh. Way [01:42:45] the amino acids, uh, mix [01:42:50] in a single cell bacteria, it’s [01:42:55] extremely, extremely, uh, how to [01:43:00] say difficult to get through evolution. So [01:43:05] the the chances of this happening is extremely slim.

[TRANSITION]: Why, though.

Alex Buciu: There, [01:43:10] there is like hundreds of millions of combinations and [01:43:15] only one would work. You know, and.

[TRANSITION]: Then.

Payman Langroudi: Infinite solar [01:43:20] system. So.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. [01:43:25] And I.

Alex Buciu: I think there’s something.

[TRANSITION]: Bigger than I think there’s something I [01:43:30] don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: There’s something bigger than us because we don’t understand.

[TRANSITION]: It. Other people have tried for.

Alex Buciu: Millennia.

[TRANSITION]: To.

Payman Langroudi: Understand [01:43:35] everything.

[TRANSITION]: You’re completely right.

Payman Langroudi: You’re completely right. And, you know, depending [01:43:40] on on the kind of adventures you go on, you realise quickly things, things [01:43:45] are not exactly as they seem in the moment. Yeah. Is there a dimension of it [01:43:50] that is good and bad and moral and immoral? That’s [01:43:55] the question I’m asking. I mean, when I say God, I’m not saying, do we [01:44:00] know everything about everything because we don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But is there something, something moral or [01:44:05] ethical, or do good things happen to good people and this sort of effort? [01:44:10]

Alex Buciu: I would love to think so.

[TRANSITION]: Unfortunately, I.

Alex Buciu: I’m [01:44:15] a strong believer in long term karma, but sometimes [01:44:20] Payman I wish it’s instant karma for some people.

[TRANSITION]: Like you should be struck by [01:44:25] lightning now, you know.

Alex Buciu: But the difference [01:44:30] between a believer in God, whichever religion and a The non-believer. [01:44:35] Is that or a scientist that the scientists are happy when they’re wrong?

[TRANSITION]: That’s [01:44:40] true.

Alex Buciu: So this is how science evolves? Yes. Like, well, I’m happy. [01:44:45] Yeah, we were wrong for 50 years. Yes, but I’m the one who discovered that we’re wrong, so they’re [01:44:50] happy. Um. It’s inside of you. What [01:44:55] was instilled in you? The environment, the family, the family believes. [01:45:00] Uh, we all have a internal moral [01:45:05] compass. And you know what is good and what is bad?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:45:10]

Alex Buciu: You you see something going on or see, it’s like, that’s not right.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: What [01:45:15] happens next is you choose to ignore it. You look the other way [01:45:20] or you do something. This is what makes it good or bad. But, uh. [01:45:25]

[TRANSITION]: I’m quite interested.

Payman Langroudi: In the question of should there be God?

[TRANSITION]: Should [01:45:30] there be God just to make one.

Payman Langroudi: Know as an.

[TRANSITION]: Entity.

Alex Buciu: Responsible. [01:45:35]

[TRANSITION]: For everything.

Payman Langroudi: As should there be third party oversight on [01:45:40] your life, or shouldn’t there be?

[TRANSITION]: Because do you want to [01:45:45] go on the Nietzsche’s? It’s much.

Payman Langroudi: More interesting. I wasted the first 45 years of my [01:45:50] life saying, is there God or isn’t there God? Now, now I’ve kind of changed my idea. Changed that. [01:45:55] Should there be or shouldn’t there be? I mean, if if we knew that everything we did was literally being watched [01:46:00] by AI or whatever call it God, would [01:46:05] that make the world a better place or not?

Alex Buciu: I’m going to answer with another question [01:46:10] is great philosophers struggled for so.

[TRANSITION]: Many.

Alex Buciu: Years [01:46:15] to to find the answer for this, but another [01:46:20] was the, uh, the drama. I’m trying to, uh, translate [01:46:25] it, I know it, I read, I read in Romanian. So the the tragedy of [01:46:30] the human being is the option to choose. Okay, so if [01:46:35] there would be a god and give you guidelines and give you, yeah, you are born, you will have to do this at this [01:46:40] age. You’re going to do this at this age, you’re going to do that. And here you’re going to end of the line, I [01:46:45] think would be very happy. And uh, yeah. That’s it. We [01:46:50] know what’s going on. We know how long the string is.

[TRANSITION]: And yeah.

Alex Buciu: I [01:46:55] think it would be happier. The unknown, however, gives you advantages [01:47:00] and disadvantages. So you can be more happier than you would be with a predestined [01:47:05] life. But when it goes bad.

[TRANSITION]: It goes terribly bad.

Payman Langroudi: Highs and lower.

[TRANSITION]: Lows. Yeah. That’s [01:47:10] it, that’s it, that’s it.

Alex Buciu: But definitely we’re part of something bigger. [01:47:15] I don’t know what it is. We’re probably too small [01:47:20] to see this. But first thing I felt, I’m part of something bigger [01:47:25] when I was out in the sea. And I still, if I go in a big pool, I’m not talking.

[TRANSITION]: A. [01:47:30]

Alex Buciu: Jacuzzi. Yeah, uh, a big pool or in the open sea [01:47:35] and restart everything. It moves and you start like I’m just a.

[TRANSITION]: Part [01:47:40] of. Yeah.

Alex Buciu: In the in the whole space there. And, [01:47:45] uh, life is more than what we probably can [01:47:50] comprehend.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And we confuse ourselves, right, with, uh, lighting [01:47:55] at night, and you know that, you know how people say, oh, they want to go and do yoga [01:48:00] and meditate. And a lot of that is to get back to, you know, out of the, [01:48:05] the, the sort of artificial ness of our life.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Just to reconnect. [01:48:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like when you say lying in the sea, you’re just doing what you were supposed to be doing. Right. [01:48:15]

[TRANSITION]: I discovered this when I was very young.

Payman Langroudi: The same as holding a phone in front of your face.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:48:20] a.

[TRANSITION]: Different. It’s it’s.

Alex Buciu: Um. Again, I discovered this when I was young, [01:48:25] and this is when I first realised, like, there’s more to it, you know, like there was like ten or [01:48:30] something. Like it wasn’t. The sea is like the world is big. And but there’s something [01:48:35] even bigger than that is it cannot be. Or maybe it’s our wishful thinking that we want. [01:48:40]

[TRANSITION]: To go back.

Payman Langroudi: To. The three pieces of advice.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Payman Langroudi: Be kind, be kind. What was the second one?

[TRANSITION]: Um. [01:48:45]

Alex Buciu: Fight constantly [01:48:50] and keep moving. Okay, so do not put the head down if you [01:48:55] know it’s right. And if you know it’s, uh, fair, it’s worth fighting. And, [01:49:00] uh, held your head up high and, uh. [01:49:05] Yeah. Trying [01:49:10] to see everything revolves about kindness.

[TRANSITION]: What?

Payman Langroudi: About what? About something [01:49:15] that, you know, you wish you were more, like.

Alex Buciu: More [01:49:20] relaxed? I wish I was more relaxed, I wish, I wish, I wish I would be [01:49:25] able to, uh, switch.

[TRANSITION]: Off.

Alex Buciu: There are many, many [01:49:30] colleagues. 5:00 literally different person.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So, [01:49:35] yeah, but you had the complaints like, I don’t care. Like, how can you, like, have [01:49:40] a, uh, friend that he got sued [01:49:45] and, like, pretty bad and like, ah, I asked him recently, [01:49:50] what have you done with, uh, what happened with this case? Like, I don’t know, the the solicitor [01:49:55] sent me some, uh, the from the indemnity. They sent me an email. I haven’t even opened them.

Payman Langroudi: Water [01:50:00] off a duck’s back.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: So is that that kind [01:50:05] of. So it’s me on one.

[TRANSITION]: End of the.

Alex Buciu: Spectrum, and he’s just like, ah, he. They sent me. [01:50:10] I didn’t even open the emails to see.

[TRANSITION]: He’s like.

Alex Buciu: Yeah, I would have died ten [01:50:15] times.

[TRANSITION]: You know, like.

Alex Buciu: I wish I would, uh, switch off. So yeah, [01:50:20] probably the third advice would be to, take care again, [01:50:25] talking to my children to take care of themselves.

[TRANSITION]: Each other, each.

Alex Buciu: Other, take.

[TRANSITION]: Care of each other. Yes. [01:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: Good advice.

Alex Buciu: Um.

[TRANSITION]: Good advice. Yeah. [01:50:35]

Alex Buciu: Choose their friends wisely. Um, you [01:50:40] know, when they go out, don’t add to the population, don’t subtract to [01:50:45] the population, don’t end up in the news. Don’t end up in jail. So [01:50:50] normal advice.

Payman Langroudi: How would you like to be remembered?

Alex Buciu: Alex [01:50:55] was family man fighting [01:51:00] for their family. Going through the hardships [01:51:05] of life and still marching on. Resilient. That [01:51:10] that was a what I would like. But again, I’m not, uh, vain [01:51:15] to.

[TRANSITION]: Know.

Alex Buciu: Know that, uh, somebody’s gonna remember me 50 [01:51:20] years if the kids remember.

[TRANSITION]: That’s enough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. It’s an interesting [01:51:25] thing. They say hardly anyone knows the name of their grandmother’s grandmother. Yeah, [01:51:30] yeah. Which is only your grandmother’s grandmother. Like loads of people know, their grandmother might have had a conversation, [01:51:35] but hardly anyone knows the name of their grandmother.

[TRANSITION]: I had a secret.

Alex Buciu: You [01:51:40] know the secret question. They ask the bank or what was it?

[TRANSITION]: Information? Yeah.

Alex Buciu: And [01:51:45] it was, uh, my wife’s, uh, was like, uh, uh, [01:51:50] surname.

[TRANSITION]: Before.

Alex Buciu: Maiden. Maiden name?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. It’s like I. [01:51:55]

Alex Buciu: Said it so many years ago.

[TRANSITION]: It’s, like.

Payman Langroudi: Forgotten.

[TRANSITION]: No ideas. [01:52:00]

Alex Buciu: I cannot log into my bank account now because I don’t know your mother’s, so I wouldn’t know there. [01:52:05] It’s, uh. Yeah, if you remember. [01:52:10] That needs to be remembered for good things. Not, uh, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know, definitely.

Alex Buciu: You remember Hitler. You [01:52:15] remember Mussolini, you remember Attila the Hun. You remember, but not necessarily for good [01:52:20] things.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Buciu: Usually the ones that are remembered are for for bad things.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:52:25] been a massive pleasure, man.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming all.

Payman Langroudi: The way down to the office. Finally. [01:52:30]

Alex Buciu: Always a.

[TRANSITION]: Pleasure. Good to see you again, buddy.

Alex Buciu: Thank you. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This [01:52:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you [01:52:40] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:52:45] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:52:50]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to [01:52:55] the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and [01:53:00] listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value [01:53:05] out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:53:10] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so so [01:53:15] so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental. Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sana Harazi onto [00:00:45] the podcast. Sana has taken a long route to get to the UK via Morocco [00:00:50] and France, and now working in two practices in West London. [00:00:55] Correct? Um, lovely to have you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely to have you. Um, we met [00:01:00] on Mini Smile makeover, and. I don’t know, man. I, you know, we meet a lot of delegates, right? [00:01:05] And with you, I felt a fire inside your belly. Thank you. A [00:01:10] real fire that you wanted to learn. I really wanted to learn. And now talking [00:01:15] to you. You’ve done all the post-grad stuff as well. Um, so now I understand why. [00:01:20] But lovely to have you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you very much.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew up in Morocco. Where? [00:01:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Rabat.

Payman Langroudi: The capital. Really beautiful.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how [00:01:30] old were you when you went to France?

Sanaa Harroussi: So when I moved to. Lived there for a couple of years. [00:01:35] That was three years after qualifying. Uh, how old was I? I was 23 back [00:01:40] then.

Payman Langroudi: So you went straight from qualifying as a dentist to France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I did, like, six months, [00:01:45] uh, voluntary work at the hospital as soon as I qualified. Um, and then the while [00:01:50] preparing exams to reach the postgraduates in Paris.

Payman Langroudi: And I expect it’s very competitive [00:01:55] to even get into dental school in Morocco.

Sanaa Harroussi: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Probably top 1% [00:02:00] of your class or whatever, right?

Sanaa Harroussi: But yes, you had to have very good grades to get [00:02:05] in the first place.

Payman Langroudi: Dental school like in Morocco. I mean, I suppose the only one you’ve been to, right? [00:02:10] So you don’t really know. But but.

Sanaa Harroussi: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Now that you’ve talked to people. [00:02:15]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to, for instance, being in Dental school here. What’s the main difference?

Sanaa Harroussi: Much [00:02:20] more challenging. They really push you to the limit. But what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. I think it did [00:02:25] help in a way. It was really, really tough. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But they kind of push you hard [00:02:30] here as well. You mean even more? Even.

Sanaa Harroussi: Even more. If we would be having the clinics [00:02:35] in the morning, we’d be taking the exams in the afternoon. You don’t even have a break in between. Mhm. Yeah. [00:02:40] And there is no mcqs. They just put like a title and you have to write [00:02:45] about whatever subject. You have to know what you’re talking about.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t history. How did it, [00:02:50] how did dentistry come on the scene.

Sanaa Harroussi: So how it worked as a teenager. Funny thing, as a teenager I used to [00:02:55] go often to the Into the dentist myself. Uh, and then one day, it [00:03:00] was the brother of one of my good high school friends was a dentist. So I went to a visit [00:03:05] and we started talking. What are you planning to do when you. After the baccalaureate? And I go after, [00:03:10] which is the equivalent of an A-level in Morocco. And, uh, and I go I’m not quite [00:03:15] sure. I’m just like weighing up my options. And he, he did ask, why don’t you go for dentistry? I was kind of like, I [00:03:20] don’t know, I’m not sure. Um, and, um, I kind of liked [00:03:25] the field. Um, and that’s how I took the decision to [00:03:30] try to apply for dentistry, and it worked quite well.

Payman Langroudi: Did you stay in Rabat for dental [00:03:35] school as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes, I was lucky because there is only two universities, uh, for dentistry in Morocco. Back then, [00:03:40] at the time when I became a dentist, there was only two universities, one in Rabat [00:03:45] and one in Casablanca. So I was lucky I could stay home. I didn’t even need to go to a different city. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: And what were you like as a dental student? Were you very serious?

Sanaa Harroussi: Too serious.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:03:55] I would always be sitting at the front.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. Uh, very, [00:04:00] very keen. And, uh. Yeah, the day when I graduated, I remember, [00:04:05] um, uh, one of the members of the jury, uh, and he goes, like, I really remember from [00:04:10] day one, she would always be sitting at the front. She would be focussed, wouldn’t even miss any lecture. Very [00:04:15] keen. Yes, I enjoyed it, I loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think do you think like the being [00:04:20] a super serious student, then a super serious uni student? And [00:04:25] then you went post-grad in France and like constantly [00:04:30] being super serious has had like a an effect insomuch as now you [00:04:35] want to enjoy it a little bit.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. It’s important to find the balance. True. [00:04:40] So I try to find a balance. So with my kids, I’m not trying to push them too much because I want them to [00:04:45] have a good balance between enjoying theirselves. I was enjoying myself.

Payman Langroudi: But did your parents push quite [00:04:50] hard?

Sanaa Harroussi: Not at all. It was the opposite. I remember one day, I was preparing for an [00:04:55] exam and literally my mom was kind of enough. You need to rest. And she literally was pulling the book out of my hand. Please [00:05:00] give yourself a break up. It was the exact opposite with my elder brother. You had to. [00:05:05] They had to push him.

Payman Langroudi: Because he was like the firstborn son. Whatever.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, I mean, he’s four of us. He’s [00:05:10] the only boy I’ve got two older sisters and an older brother. Uh, and I remember with [00:05:15] him, they had kind of like, you need to study, but they never needed to do that with us. Especially with me. It was the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:20] are the other three doing now?

Sanaa Harroussi: So, uh, my two sisters live in Paris. Oh, yeah. Um, [00:05:25] my brother is still in Morocco. He’s based in Casablanca now.

Payman Langroudi: Any of them dentists?

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Uh, [00:05:30] my elder sister is an architect. Uh, my brother work. [00:05:35] I mean, he was qualified in, uh, he went to business school, and, uh, he [00:05:40] works in insurance now. Um, and then, uh, my third, my, um, [00:05:45] older sister, um, the one who stayed in, uh, in Paris [00:05:50] now, um, she works as a innovation [00:05:55] director in the insurance field.

Payman Langroudi: What was the reason for moving to Paris?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, [00:06:00] catching up with my sisters was one point as well.

Payman Langroudi: Because both of.

Sanaa Harroussi: Them, [00:06:05] they were. Yeah, they they moved to Paris when I was at high school. Um, so, [00:06:10] yeah, it was nice to kind of, um, why [00:06:15] I picked Paris as a city, particularly. There was other cities where I could have done my postgraduate in France. Um, [00:06:20] but I love Paris. Beautiful city as well. It’s lovely.

Payman Langroudi: To specialise.

Sanaa Harroussi: To [00:06:25] specialise.

Payman Langroudi: That was the point.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. I was keen on, like going the [00:06:30] extra mile.

Payman Langroudi: Doing more.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So you went into a pros program? Yes. [00:06:35] Like a full time?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, it was only. So the postgraduate [00:06:40] was like two days a week. So I ended up doing many certificates and many diplomas at the same time, because [00:06:45] I had to fill my time completely. I was literally like four days a week. So, [00:06:50] yeah, I ended up doing lots of post-graduates within the two years. But [00:06:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Two years you were there?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. For two years. Full time? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you stay [00:07:00] in France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I got married and my husband.

Payman Langroudi: Was living here.

Sanaa Harroussi: Was [00:07:05] living here. And to be honest, I came to visit, and I just loved London.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: And, yeah, [00:07:10] it wasn’t hard to take the decision to move to London. Uh, how.

Payman Langroudi: Do you feel? How do you feel about Paris? [00:07:15] I’ve got a real love hate relationship with Paris, you know, because we were just talking. My kids are in French school [00:07:20] as well as yours. Yeah. And, um, I feel like race relations there aren’t. Aren’t great. [00:07:25] There’s always a tension in the air.

Sanaa Harroussi: I feel much less racism in London compared to Paris. [00:07:30] Not everywhere in Paris. But you can feel the difference here. You really feel like [00:07:35] there’s much better integration, I would say.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny because you wouldn’t think that from [00:07:40] the outside, Paris, London sounds like similar kind of cities, but, um, I [00:07:45] don’t know. It’s a beautiful city, right? There’s no there’s no doubt about that. But I can feel the tension [00:07:50] there. You know, compared to here. Do you feel the same, similar thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I feel more comfortable here [00:07:55] before.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. So don’t get me wrong, I love Paris. Yeah. And I would have loved [00:08:00] living there, but I prefer here by far.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Particularly we moved here in the late [00:08:05] 70s. Yeah, in the late 70s. Like, I actually remember we used to go to [00:08:10] Paris and going to a cafe and having a coffee was a big deal because [00:08:15] there wasn’t coffee in London. You know, there was coffee, but it wasn’t like good coffee. It [00:08:20] was just terrible coffee. Yeah. Um, and I remember we used to go and sit in a cafe [00:08:25] and have a coffee and watch the people go by, whatever. That was almost like a first thing we would do when we’d get to Paris. [00:08:30] But now London has everything, you know, like London has everything [00:08:35] you could want. And so, I dunno, Paris just didn’t change at all. And [00:08:40] over here you think it’s quite a conservative place and it doesn’t change very much. But France [00:08:45] is even more conservative. Right. I’m embarrassed. Recently I realised it hasn’t [00:08:50] changed for 30, 40 years. You know, like similar feeling in the town. Of course, [00:08:55] they do have the odd sort of, um, very avant garde stuff as well. There’s no doubt about that. So [00:09:00] London, what was your first impression? Had you been before?

Sanaa Harroussi: No.

Payman Langroudi: What was your first [00:09:05] time when you moved?

Sanaa Harroussi: First time? Yeah, when I came to visit and and my my fiance [00:09:10] back then, he made sure I really enjoyed the visit. He showed [00:09:15] me the best side of London, obviously. Um, but the equivalent in France [00:09:20] was ten times easier than passing the equivalent in England.

Payman Langroudi: The aura.

Sanaa Harroussi: The aura was [00:09:25] really, really challenging.

Payman Langroudi: And did you have to do exams in France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I know you were [00:09:30] studying.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. To do the postgraduate as well. I had to take exams again. They were very, very selective. So [00:09:35] for every diploma, it was about 12 people. Ten, 12 people. That was it. Um, so [00:09:40] it was quite competitive as well. Um, so that’s why, uh, I [00:09:45] had a funny story where I had to pick between two diplomas. Kind of like, why didn’t you tell [00:09:50] me that if I do prosthodontics, I wouldn’t be able to do the implants diploma? [00:09:55] At the same time they said, well, people usually pass one or the other. We never had that. You’re [00:10:00] not meant to pass both. We couldn’t have that. You’re going to pass both. But I had to pick between one and [00:10:05] the other. And, uh, and the following year I had to retake the exam, which wasn’t quite annoying. [00:10:10] So I, um, so, uh, I wasn’t very happy about it. And, [00:10:15] uh, and I remember going to talk to the secretary, kind of like. But that’s not fair. Like she goes, all I can do is get you [00:10:20] to talk to the head of department. So I was kind of. Okay, I’m happy to have a meeting with the head of department, because this isn’t fair. Um, [00:10:25] so I went, had a chat, and she was like, I’m really sorry you have to retake. But if you pass last year, you definitely [00:10:30] passed. This year. I’m sure you will pass. Don’t worry. Um, but yeah. So, uh, [00:10:35] but as a result, I couldn’t do the three year postgraduate and implants just on the first year. [00:10:40] Um, because the the postgraduate diploma for [00:10:45] implants was closed in that year, so if I would have picked implants over prosthodontics, [00:10:50] I would have had the full three year diploma, but never mind.

Payman Langroudi: So in French [00:10:55] terms, you are a specialist. Prosthodontist?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But then, does that count here? No.

Sanaa Harroussi: I [00:11:00] didn’t even try to reach. When I checked at the beginning. They said you could reach. You could if you really want to be in [00:11:05] the specialist register. But I never tried to. To be honest.

Payman Langroudi: You had to worry about first.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. [00:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Because I’ve had people sitting where you’re sitting, and [00:11:15] the stories tend to be some of the hardest stories I’ve heard.

Sanaa Harroussi: I had the funniest story about. Yeah. [00:11:20] So I remember coming from Paris to London. Yeah. And I got on [00:11:25] the Eurostar and there was a lovely, heavily pregnant lady and [00:11:30] give her a smile, let her in first. And she gave me a smile. She sat there. And [00:11:35] that day, for whatever reason, I had a book about dentistry on me in my handbag. So I put it [00:11:40] out and I started having a look at it and she passed by. She was going to the toilet, she could see the book and she goes, are you [00:11:45] a dentist? I said, yes, she goes, I’m a dentist too. Are you trying to take over? It’s kind of like, yeah. Back [00:11:50] then I was learning English and I had to pass the IELTS, which was quite tough too, to be honest. Um, [00:11:55] then she goes, okay, let me give you my number. She was based in France. [00:12:00] She goes, let me give you back. Then there was a landline. People were calling people. We were using landline. No, [00:12:05] she was Indian.

Payman Langroudi: Indian.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I want to say hello to Saida. She’s the one who. [00:12:10] Who I’m talking to. Um, so, uh, she gave [00:12:15] me her phone number, and, um, so I kept it [00:12:20] in that book, um, carried on with my life. I [00:12:25] had to, uh, take a proper course on how to pass the isles. Because even to pass the isles get good grades. [00:12:30] Um, it wasn’t that easy.

Payman Langroudi: That’s kind of English for foreign students sort of thing.

Sanaa Harroussi: But you have to get good [00:12:35] grades, like seven out of nine. And, uh, and it was quite challenging, especially the lesson part was [00:12:40] quite Yet challenging because they make you listen to different accents as well, [00:12:45] which is quite funny. To make it even more complicated. Um, but even that was [00:12:50] quite competitive as well to get a good grade on it. So, uh, passed my art and I’m thinking, [00:12:55] how do I start? Um, and then I get that book and I [00:13:00] open it, and the first thing I see in her name and her number. So I’m calling her, uh, [00:13:05] and she goes, what a coincidence. I’ll be in London a few days. Let’s meet up. So we set a [00:13:10] time and a place. We met up and she guided me. She explained to me exactly what I’m meant to do, [00:13:15] which because everything is on the GDC website, but there isn’t the details that [00:13:20] you really need. Um, so. And then she showed me one place called MRC. [00:13:25] Mrc I’m not even sure if it’s still exists nowadays. Uh, it’s for migrants [00:13:30] and refugees. Okay. And people used to, like, gather once a week and, uh, they would [00:13:35] guide you. And the best thing about it was meeting all the dentists who had to take O2. [00:13:40] Um, so I met some of my best friends over there. Um, [00:13:45] and. Yeah. So as a result, I had some connections. We had [00:13:50] some friends and we could help each other guide each other. She gave me as well, a list of books that I’m meant to read. [00:13:55] So that’s how my journey had started with.

Payman Langroudi: Well, for someone who doesn’t know, what does Ori [00:14:00] comprise of? Like how many exams? How many?

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s two parts. The part one is mainly about theory. [00:14:05] You’ve got part A and B, and it’s mainly Mcqs but the answers are so close and [00:14:10] the passing rate is so low.

Payman Langroudi: But is it negative marking as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I’m not quite sure about [00:14:15] that.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I mean?

Sanaa Harroussi: But yes, if you give the wrong answer, you get.

Payman Langroudi: Minus.

Sanaa Harroussi: One. I’m not sure, [00:14:20] but it was. The passing rate was like 37% when I, when I passed. Wow. So it’s really, [00:14:25] really tough. Um, so the first part was just theory. Part [00:14:30] two was more you had to do, um, um, [00:14:35] it was funny. I had a monkey in my loft that I named Salim. I even [00:14:40] named him. And I used to spend three hours every single day training on my aura. Literally [00:14:45] three hours every day. And I had to build up my speed.

Payman Langroudi: Did you bring that from France?

Sanaa Harroussi: No, [00:14:50] I bought.

Payman Langroudi: It from eBay.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, well, I bought it from eBay. Well, I had [00:14:55] a light. I had the drill. I had everything compressed.

Payman Langroudi: Practice on this.

Sanaa Harroussi: Little room to practice. [00:15:00] Literally, I don’t I didn’t take anything lightly. I had to pass and I had to pass for the first time. Because [00:15:05] if you if you then fail, you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Only got a certain number of.

Sanaa Harroussi: Four [00:15:10] chances in your whole life. But if you really fail, it’s going to really compromise your self-confidence, which [00:15:15] I would, you know, that would make it more nerve wracking. It was already tough enough. Yeah. So I [00:15:20] was kind of like, I’m gonna invest myself. Um, so that’s all I was doing [00:15:25] just every single day. Uh, especially between parts one and part two. Before parts one, [00:15:30] there was a bit of a waiting list, so it did give me plenty of time to pass my oils to prepare for part one. [00:15:35] I had like literally a year for that. But between part one and part two, it’s only a few months and you [00:15:40] have to be really prepared for the exam.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and what do you have to do? Like a crown prep or something?

Sanaa Harroussi: So there was crown [00:15:45] prep, uh, cavities and all, uh, [00:15:50] like root canal, uh, access and prep. What else? Even the [00:15:55] way you fit the matrix band and the way you put the wedge, everything has to be perfect, basically. And, uh, and the main [00:16:00] thing is the timing. You have to finish all the tasks in a limited amount of time, and everything has [00:16:05] to be perfect. Passing rate for the second part was 25%, which means you have to be one of the best. It’s [00:16:10] not just doing a good prep, it’s one of the best preps, which makes it more challenging.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. [00:16:15] What else?

Payman Langroudi: So did you pass it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. First. First time? Both of them. Oh, really? [00:16:20] Yeah. It was like.

Payman Langroudi: First person I’ve heard has ever said that. Yeah. So. [00:16:25] So then you felt great.

Sanaa Harroussi: Felt amazing. It was like a dream coming true. I remember I was in [00:16:30] France. Uh, there was, uh, similar to clinical innovation here. It was, like, kind of similar [00:16:35] in France. And it was like lots of us. And they had just passed their exam. They had just found out [00:16:40] that they passed their exam. They were allowed to practice in Paris, and I passed my aura. We all kind [00:16:45] of passed at the same year. So they were kind of like, oh, that’s amazing. We should keep in touch. Unfortunately we didn’t. I [00:16:50] only kept in touch with my very close friends from from Rabat, and I’m still in touch with them till now. Um, [00:16:55] but most of my friends are dentists. Oh, that’s what I noticed. Most of them. [00:17:00] Um. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So now. So now you’re. You’re [00:17:05] married? No. Kids?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right? No kids at this point?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. [00:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: And now what? Find a job? Yes. Was that the idea?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. So I started with [00:17:15] the BJ. Yeah. Um, looking for jobs and stuff, and, uh, literally my [00:17:20] first job offer. So I remember the first interview I had, and they lived kind of like your. Your profile [00:17:25] is amazing. That’s it. I didn’t even have any other interview. You are the one. I’m so pleased [00:17:30] with you. That’s it. You’re hired. And kind of like I was happy, but at the same time, it’s going to be Swiss Sussex.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:17:35] Sussex.

Sanaa Harroussi: West.

Payman Langroudi: Sussex, West Sussex.

Sanaa Harroussi: So my husband was working in the city [00:17:40] back then, so for him it means he has to take a train and can take him two hours door to door and there [00:17:45] aren’t that many trains as well. But he was like so kind of supportive. He was like, don’t worry, be fine. And she was [00:17:50] amazing. It was an Iranian dentist, lovely lady. And she said, don’t worry about it. You could even [00:17:55] have the she had a flat above the practice because you can stay there until you get yourself [00:18:00] settled. Don’t you worry, just focus on work. It’s kind of like, okay, amazing. So I came home, we were celebrating, [00:18:05] but at the same time I had that weird feeling inside. It’s kind of like I’m not sure it’s the right decision. I’m not sure. Then [00:18:10] on Monday, she’s called me to say, I’m really sorry. I’ve just checked and it’s going to take forever to take you to get your performance [00:18:15] and it’s going to take. And I need someone who needs to start ASAP. So I’m really sorry. Um, I can’t [00:18:20] hire you. And deep inside, I was kind of like, it’s a bit of a relief because I didn’t really want to move that [00:18:25] far.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, and then I’m having a chat with my [00:18:30] sister, and she goes, why don’t you just try to just [00:18:35] call the local practices in your neighbourhood? I was kind of like, I don’t think so. [00:18:40] I don’t think I don’t think that’s how it works. She goes, you have nothing to lose. Just try the [00:18:45] next day. I remember my uncle knocking at the door and he goes, [00:18:50] like, we’ve just received that list because I’ve told him what she has told me. And he goes, we just received that [00:18:55] list. It’s the list of all the NHS practices in the neighbourhood. It’s including dental practice. So it [00:19:00] was all the list with phone number and email and everything. So he goes, [00:19:05] why don’t you just try it? I mean, it’s a sign he came through the door by post. I [00:19:10] don’t know why they posted that leaflet anyway, but it had exactly what I needed. I didn’t even need to do any [00:19:15] much research. There was a name of the practice, the address and the phone number. So I started calling them and [00:19:20] I had quite like five practices that were hiring literally in my neighbourhood.

Payman Langroudi: Because no one wants to be an [00:19:25] NHS dentist these days. Right. How long ago was this?

Sanaa Harroussi: That was 15. Even even even, um. [00:19:30] Now it’s even worse.

Payman Langroudi: 15 years.

Sanaa Harroussi: Ago. 15 years ago? Yeah. Back then, it wasn’t [00:19:35] as bad. Now it’s. Nobody wants to work on it, to be honest. Um, so. Yeah. [00:19:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: So five.

Sanaa Harroussi: Of them. But I had zero experience in the UK back then. So, um. [00:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Were they corporates, any of them or.

Sanaa Harroussi: Were they all? I think most of them were family [00:19:50] practices. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: So you took one of those jobs.

Sanaa Harroussi: So exactly. And [00:19:55] then, um, so, uh, I’ve spoken to a few of them, and then one of them [00:20:00] had, uh, the receptionist called me back and she said, well, uh, [00:20:05] I’ve got your number. The principal wants to meet you, my current principal, and I go, [00:20:10] yes, sure. How long would it take you to be here? After ten minutes, she goes, are you sure? She goes, yeah, yeah, I live down the road. So [00:20:15] I quickly changed, uh, took my CV, went to see her. She had a look at the CV. She was very happy [00:20:20] with it. And she goes, uh, when can we start? And we just started the paperwork, [00:20:25] literally. And then a few months later, I was working for her.

Payman Langroudi: And what was your. I mean, and.

Sanaa Harroussi: That [00:20:30] was walking distance.

Payman Langroudi: As a French qualified prosthodontist. Yes. [00:20:35] What was your first impression of the NHS?

Sanaa Harroussi: I was kind of like, what is [00:20:40] that like disbelief? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And the rules and regulations? Like, [00:20:45] who explained all that to you?

Sanaa Harroussi: So before I started working though, I’ve done [00:20:50] some internship in another dental practice. So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: What, [00:20:55] nursing or something?

Sanaa Harroussi: No, no, no. In another dental practice. He was a friend of my [00:21:00] uncle. My uncle used to own a restaurant. And across the road there was a dentist. Um, his [00:21:05] name is Garth. Very, very supportive. Um, I’d like to say hello to him [00:21:10] if he’s listening. Um, and, uh, I managed to do my internship [00:21:15] at his practice, so for a good four months, I used to just go and watch, uh, so [00:21:20] it was a bit of fun.

Payman Langroudi: Um, was that an NHS?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, it was a mixed practice. Yes. Yes. [00:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: So you kind of got your head.

Sanaa Harroussi: I kind of knew how it works. Yeah. So when I joined my first job, [00:21:30] I knew how it works. Like, even stuff, like how to do referral letter and everything. How the NHS works. [00:21:35] Yes. So which made it a bit easier for me because I knew how the NHS works.

Payman Langroudi: The whole note [00:21:40] writing nightmare that every dentist has to go through. That must have been a [00:21:45] shock. Yeah. The detail you have to write. Exactly. Different to France, I bet. [00:21:50]

Sanaa Harroussi: Very different. Very different.

Payman Langroudi: And what about patients? [00:21:55] I mean, what’s a French patient? I had some French patients.

Sanaa Harroussi: Very difficult.

Payman Langroudi: I found French [00:22:00] patients very difficult.

Sanaa Harroussi: Very demanding.

Payman Langroudi: Hypochondriac, very demanding, very [00:22:05] demanding.

Sanaa Harroussi: It has to be excellent.

Payman Langroudi: So German patients I found amazing. Like, amazing. [00:22:10] They would just sit back. Doc, you know best. Whatever you say that. Yes, absolutely. Very compliant [00:22:15] French patients I found tough.

Sanaa Harroussi: You have to make sure everything is perfect. Like the expectation.

Payman Langroudi: Lots [00:22:20] of questions and very high expectations. Yes. So the British patient. Not so hard [00:22:25] compared to the French.

Sanaa Harroussi: Easier, I would.

Payman Langroudi: Say. Yeah, yeah I bet. Yeah. So [00:22:30] okay.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m quite I’m quite hard on myself. So whatever work I try to do, I really try my [00:22:35] best to do the best I can. Definitely. And sometimes it’s even good. I want once more. I always [00:22:40] want more. I always want to improve myself. Yeah, but I’m not sure if it’s a good thing because I’m a bit too tough on myself. [00:22:45] Like always pushing myself to.

Payman Langroudi: Good and a bad thing, isn’t it? Like everything else, there’s good and bad [00:22:50] in it. But but, you know, being a good dentist, I mean it. It’s as much [00:22:55] to do with the way you talk to the patient or the way you listen [00:23:00] to the patient as it is to do with your matrix band. Right? You know, and it’s [00:23:05] important to bear that in mind. You know, that. I mean, I remember some of my bosses charming, [00:23:10] charming, charming guy. But, you know, the [00:23:15] matrix band wasn’t wasn’t great. Um, and the opposite [00:23:20] as well, you know, technically brilliant dentists who just couldn’t talk to patients [00:23:25] properly.

Sanaa Harroussi: A good balance.

Payman Langroudi: Between you need both. You need both, especially when people are scared. [00:23:30] Right. And that’s important to bear in mind. People are scared. More than half are [00:23:35] frightened when they’re in the room. And we forget that. You know, I only remembered [00:23:40] it now when I became a patient, you know, had a feeling it was a scary experience. You [00:23:45] know, even even when you know everything that’s going on.

Sanaa Harroussi: I think it’s worse when you know what’s happening. Maybe the least, [00:23:50] you know, the better off you are.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. Maybe you’re right. So how long did you stay there?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, [00:23:55] were.

Payman Langroudi: You still there?

Sanaa Harroussi: This job? Well, for the last 15 years.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:24:00] still there in the same place. Oh, wow.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do I. Take it you don’t like [00:24:05] change? Um.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:10] when did you have children in that journey?

Sanaa Harroussi: So, um. I [00:24:15] would say two years after I started working. Exactly two years afterwards, [00:24:20] I had my first son. Um, he’s 12 now. Time flies.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: So. [00:24:25] And then back then, my husband got a job in, um, around Asia. He had to be head in Asia, so [00:24:30] he was travelling a lot all over Asia. So had the best maternity leave ever. I got to travel [00:24:35] most of Asia. Just name it. And that baby, aged six months, had visited like nine different countries. [00:24:40] We were so well travelled.

Payman Langroudi: And you said he’s in it?

Sanaa Harroussi: No no, no. He’s 12 now. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, no. What does your husband do?

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh, no. He works in marketing. He was a marketing director. Marketing? [00:24:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So you had a year travelling around Asia? Yes. And then. [00:24:55]

Sanaa Harroussi: Six months. I mean, I had six months maternity leave.

Payman Langroudi: And then back to London.

Sanaa Harroussi: And then back to London.

Payman Langroudi: And then [00:25:00] to part time after that.

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Carried on working Monday to Saturday. Believe it or not, I’m a workaholic. [00:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: So a nanny?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, yes. Uh, we had help, but [00:25:10] we had as well. Uh, my mother in law had retired that year, luckily for me. So, [00:25:15] uh, I had quite a bit of support with my mum and my mother in law. Um, and then full time nursery, [00:25:20] bless him.

Payman Langroudi: What are your feelings around, you know, like wanting [00:25:25] it all.

Sanaa Harroussi: Wanting it all. That’s me. That’s totally me. I want it all.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but do you agree? [00:25:30] It’s impossible.

Sanaa Harroussi: As much as you can of each.

Payman Langroudi: But no, no, I mean, look, [00:25:35] I want it all. Yeah. Yes. But I’m not a woman. Yeah. So I don’t have two children. [00:25:40] Yes. But one. It all could mean anything, right? You could say, hey, want it all? Could be [00:25:45] owning 100 practices. Yeah, yeah. You haven’t done that? Yeah. So [00:25:50] what is it? What are the limits of wanting it all? Okay, I want to career. I [00:25:55] want a husband. I want children and all that. What gives? Something [00:26:00] gives.

Sanaa Harroussi: Well, I tried to take time after. [00:26:05] Out of all of this, uh, my secret to cope with all of that, [00:26:10] I try to. Once a year, I go for retreat. Oh, really? For a long [00:26:15] weekend. And I have my me time with myself. With a friend. Yeah. [00:26:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like way.

Sanaa Harroussi: So, um, so the idea came from one of my best friends. [00:26:25] Um, uh, let me tell you more about my second. [00:26:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, second.

Sanaa Harroussi: Kid. My second kid.

Payman Langroudi: So how many years later was that?

Sanaa Harroussi: So four years later. [00:26:35] So I had like, three years to settle everything down. Had a second child, um, [00:26:40] decided to give the second child, give birth in Morocco. So it was kind of. We’ll get more family [00:26:45] support. Let me spend that six months back home. Yeah. Just I will get more support with for the [00:26:50] elder son. And I wanted him to go to I wanted him to learn French because my eldest son was only speaking English back then. [00:26:55] Um, and we thought if we take him to nursery back home in Morocco, he will get to [00:27:00] learn how to speak French fluently, because we wanted to put him in French school. So, uh, gave [00:27:05] birth. And I remember the petition telling me, oh, you’re so lucky you’ve got such a lovely [00:27:10] baby. Perfectly healthy. Um, and then I remember my sister when he was about [00:27:15] five weeks, they came to visit and they met him. The first thing they said, your baby is floppy. And it’s kind of like, no, [00:27:20] it was total denial. Couldn’t see it. He was only five weeks for me. He [00:27:25] looked normal. And she goes, no, no, you should get him checked. He looks floppy. [00:27:30] Um, and then the following week, um, my, [00:27:35] uh, elder son had tonsillitis, a bit of temperature, and I had to take him to penetration. [00:27:40] So, uh. And I took the baby with me, so my dad took [00:27:45] me. Got to the paediatrician. She’s checking the elder son. She goes, yeah, he needs some antibiotics. [00:27:50] And I say, would you mind just checking the baby? Because my sister keeps saying that she’s a bit floppy, [00:27:55] and I’m not quite sure.

Sanaa Harroussi: And, um. And she had a look, and I remember she took a little hammer and she was checking [00:28:00] on, like, hitting his knee just to see if there is anything wrong with him. Any [00:28:05] response? And she goes like, no, he is. No, your sister’s absolutely right. You need to get him [00:28:10] checked. And then there was a huge series of exams that same day. Now, [00:28:15] the good thing about, uh, medical treatment in Morocco is everything is happening fast. [00:28:20] So she called a cardiologist that she knew. She she sent him straight away. We checked [00:28:25] the heart. Everything is normal. Chest x ray. No problem with the breathing. Then they’ve done, [00:28:30] um, some, um, MRI. Everything normal. She goes, oh, we have to see. [00:28:35] You have to see your paediatrician. And, uh, so that was on a Monday. [00:28:40] On Wednesday, I was seen by the neuro paediatrician. She literally prioritised. She got a couple of phone calls [00:28:45] from from paediatrician and from another friend of ours who’s a doctor, and they were kind of like, please, they don’t have [00:28:50] much time. And if he could just speed everything up. So by Wednesday [00:28:55] we would know paediatrician and she goes, I think he has spinal [00:29:00] muscular atrophy condition that I’ve never heard about. So I thought, okay, um, so, [00:29:05] uh, after that, uh, we had to [00:29:10] get some tests done and the results came after a week [00:29:15] which did confirm that he has spinal muscular atrophy, which means life expectancy of six months. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sanaa Harroussi: So, yeah, we brought him back to London and we went to the GP [00:29:25] and tried to get referral done. Luckily we had diagnosis. Everything was [00:29:30] done. Um, so. Yeah. Um, and then we started looking at [00:29:35] clinical trials and, um, he was referred to Great Ormond Street. Amazing [00:29:40] hospital.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Provided amazing care. Um, but [00:29:45] they had the clinical trial was not up and running in London yet. However, it was in Paris. [00:29:50] Um, so one of my best friends came to visit me. She. She’s a dentist, [00:29:55] too. She used to be my next door neighbour back home. The funny thing. Literally next door neighbour. Um. [00:30:00] We studied dentistry together in Rabat, and she did her postgraduate in France too. So she came to visit [00:30:05] and she goes, oh, how does it work for the clinical trial? Well, the funny thing is it says the hospital [00:30:10] is called Salpetriere, which is the hospital where we were doing our postgraduates. She goes, okay, [00:30:15] let me speak to my, uh, to my boss. He might know him and he can get some info for [00:30:20] you. So that was over the weekend. So Monday she’s calling me and she goes like, oh, I [00:30:25] got some info. They’re taking patients. You can bring your son.

Payman Langroudi: For the trial. [00:30:30]

Sanaa Harroussi: For the clinical trial. So, uh, so it was amazing. So I emailed [00:30:35] him. I’m just waiting for the answer. And literally he emailed me back late in [00:30:40] that same evening, and, uh, I thought, I’m like, however, I want the clinical trial to start [00:30:45] in France, but I want to carry on. I want to carry on the treatment, uh, in London [00:30:50] once it’s up and running at Great Ormond Street. Um, so he spoke to the other [00:30:55] team and they, they found an agreement. So it was a miracle. It was [00:31:00] dream coming true. And I managed to put him into clinical trial. And then after that, lots of families did the same. They [00:31:05] started taking their kids all the way to Paris for the treatment until it started in the UK. And [00:31:10] until now, he’s still alive.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, what was going through your head? Were you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh. [00:31:15] Well, I had to fight for him, basically. Anyhow, if [00:31:20] there is no treatment, then let’s check clinical trials. It was a risk because it’s a clinical trial. But I [00:31:25] know that that treatment was up and running in the US. Uh, but that’s the only treatment that really [00:31:30] keeping him alive. He will never have a normal life. He will always be disabled. But I’m okay with that. Um, [00:31:35] just giving him the best quality of life he can have.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go into, like, deep research [00:31:40] mode yourself? Like, just trying to find out everything you could.

Sanaa Harroussi: And try to get in touch with other [00:31:45] special needs mom, with kids with the same condition who were guiding me what to do next. Um, [00:31:50] and then whatever treatment he would need next, whatever surgery he would need next. Um, [00:31:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s eight now.

Sanaa Harroussi: He’s eight. Yes. And so. Correct. [00:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say he’ll be disabled.

Sanaa Harroussi: Like he can’t walk, he’s always wheelchair. [00:32:05] Yeah, yeah. It affects all the muscles of the body. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And what was the treatment [00:32:10] that that.

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s a new treatment. Uh, so with that neuromuscular [00:32:15] condition, it affects the way the signal comes from the brain to the muscle to ask the muscle to move. [00:32:20] So, uh, the it’s like a treatment. He has to have an injection [00:32:25] on his spine. It’s a bit like the epidural. Mhm. But he has to have that medication every four [00:32:30] months for the rest of his life. Mhm. So once every four months he gets the injection done with whatever molecule [00:32:35] that is missing to.

Payman Langroudi: Can you move at all.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh he can move. Yeah. He can move his [00:32:40] hand. If you give him an iPad you’d be very impressed about the way he can.

Payman Langroudi: Swipe. [00:32:45]

Sanaa Harroussi: It. Yeah. We had friends visiting last weekend and their daughter [00:32:50] was just amazed about the way he was using his his iPad and how quickly he could, you know, [00:32:55] he was like, I don’t want to be rude, but I didn’t realise how clever he was. But when you see him [00:33:00] using his iPad, wow. It’s impressive. And he could screen mirror it. Especially if, like, daddy’s watching [00:33:05] TV and he’s on his iPad watching cartoons and he wants to annoy him. And like, it would be [00:33:10] like, you know, when you’re just waiting for the goal is coming. And then he would scream cartoons [00:33:15] on the TV. Yeah, he’s extremely clever.

Payman Langroudi: And your day to day, I mean, does he go to a normal school?

Sanaa Harroussi: He goes to a special [00:33:20] school.

Payman Langroudi: A special.

Sanaa Harroussi: School? Yeah. Yeah, we’ve got great support. We’ve got his uh, we’ve got, [00:33:25] uh, like carers helping with him.

Payman Langroudi: Who visit every day and.

Sanaa Harroussi: Every day they [00:33:30] take him to school. Um, he has a school transport as well. Um, yeah. [00:33:35] And he has an overnight carer as well who’s watching him while he’s asleep.

Payman Langroudi: And what goes through your mind [00:33:40] about the future with him?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I don’t take life for granted anymore. [00:33:45] You have to take it one day at a time, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. I remember one of my best friends. [00:33:50] Um, she came to visit him at the hospital, and [00:33:55] back then he was in intensive care, and he was really sick. And she goes, that’s really sad. You know, it’s heartbreaking. [00:34:00] And, um, a few years later, last year, she got cancer [00:34:05] and she passed away within eight months. Wow. So you never know who’s gonna. [00:34:10] You know.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s changed you in that way?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. Yeah. [00:34:15] You really have to just enjoy life and take it one day at a time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:34:20] important. I mean, it’s funny because I find when when [00:34:25] things go wrong in your life, the best way to deal with it is to kind of [00:34:30] have gratitude for.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I’m appreciating health a lot.

Payman Langroudi: But gratitude for what [00:34:35] you do have.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. And when I had my third child, I was grateful for every tiny [00:34:40] bit.

Payman Langroudi: Was it a third child?

Sanaa Harroussi: A third son after that, four years later. So every four years. [00:34:45] But I’m done now. Uh, so I wanted [00:34:50] my elder son to have a sibling he could play with who could run after him, who could, you know. And so together [00:34:55] they play football together.

Payman Langroudi: So they have a four year old as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’ve got a four year old.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. You [00:35:00] are busy. Yes, you are busy. And you still work full time?

Sanaa Harroussi: I work, [00:35:05] uh, four days. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: No. I think I think you should go [00:35:10] down to, like, two days would be perfect for you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Maybe one day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:35:15] I’ve done one day. You know, I’ve done everything. I’ve done. One day, two days, four days, five days. I haven’t done six. Um, [00:35:20] but one day I did for about five years. And it’s [00:35:25] incorrect. It’s just not right. You just.

Sanaa Harroussi: I think to the minimum.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not there enough. Yeah. To [00:35:30] give a damn, you know, like, let’s say the nurse does something wrong or something’s [00:35:35] up with your loops or something. You’re just like, you look at your watch and you’re [00:35:40] like, you’re going to be out of here in two hours time, and then it’s all over. You know, it’s just it’s not the right rhythm. [00:35:45] Whereas I find two days plus a hobby or in your case, you know.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m addicted [00:35:50] to dentistry. That’s the problem. I enjoy dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Two days is good, two.

Sanaa Harroussi: Days is good, two days. And I could [00:35:55] do courses or something of the week. But it has to be dentistry. I know.

Payman Langroudi: Two days plus another [00:36:00] business, let’s say. Yeah, like some people do property or whatever. In your case, just two days. Plus [00:36:05] your mother. You’ve got enough on your plate. On your plate. Or two days. Plus yoga, if you want. Yeah. [00:36:10] It’s. What I’m saying is two days is kind of this hobby dentistry? Yeah. Three days. If [00:36:15] it’s like you have to earn like, you know, and I think, you know, five [00:36:20] days is incorrect. Like, you really shouldn’t do five days. It’s a mistake at [00:36:25] a higher level of dentistry I think for 3 or 2 is correct. [00:36:30] But then they have to be good days, right? They have to be important days. Days that you, you [00:36:35] know, you produce um, or days that you want to do stuff, the kind of [00:36:40] dentistry you want to do. Right. And so, you know, in your case, you have to [00:36:45] you have to do the pros, you know, put the pros into practice. Um, [00:36:50] and that’s the, the fire in your belly that I saw in [00:36:55] many smile makeover. You need to do that kind of work I think definitely [00:37:00] it’s interesting interesting question, man, Amount that you’re managing all of that with [00:37:05] a massive smile on your face.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes, I’m an optimistic person. I always take take everything positively. [00:37:10]

Payman Langroudi: Would you say that was the darkest day, though, when when you found out [00:37:15] about your.

Sanaa Harroussi: The saddest day of my life? Yes. The [00:37:20] diagnosis. Because you know that your life will never be the same.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Neither [00:37:25] before and days after. But it made me stronger.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: And that resilience. That boy has such resilience [00:37:30] like he. The first year was the hardest. Now he’s absolutely fine. Now he’s very, [00:37:35] very stable. Uh, but the first year, um, and you see how thick [00:37:40] he would be, but he still kind of. He’s such a tough cookie. He’s [00:37:45] really, really resilient. And he’s, like, fighting with all his heart. So when you see [00:37:50] him like that, fighting that hard, you have to, you know, you have to be supportive. You have to help him.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:37:55] think kids end up teaching you as much as you teach them.

Sanaa Harroussi: From.

Payman Langroudi: Him in all kids, you know? I [00:38:00] mean, he’s a special case, right? Yeah, but all kids, you think you’re going to teach them, but [00:38:05] you actually do learn a lot from from them because they haven’t got the bullshit that we have as an [00:38:10] adult. You know, you end up your your basic childish sort of hopes and dreams [00:38:15] get polluted so much as you, as you grow up. Um, and kids still have that, right? They [00:38:20] still have it. Tell me about your career goals now, then. [00:38:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you going to continue going on every course you find?

Sanaa Harroussi: And I [00:38:30] really enjoy it. Really, really enjoy taking courses. Um. I find [00:38:35] it fun. It’s like going back to uni, in a way. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But something different from the [00:38:40] day to day.

Sanaa Harroussi: But I like to improve myself. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:38:45] did this come from with this, this sort of, um, obsessive improvement [00:38:50] thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: Like, were you that child [00:38:55] from.

Sanaa Harroussi: I probably got it from my mum. My mum is a perfectionist. She wants everything to be perfect. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You would [00:39:00] like that as a child, even?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t remember [00:39:05] a time when you weren’t that.

Sanaa Harroussi: Since I was a child, to be honest, [00:39:10] I’ve always tried to improve myself. I would always have, like, [00:39:15] it’s like a PDP in place personal development plan.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:20] then what’s the downside of being that person? If [00:39:25] something isn’t perfect, does it drive you crazy? No.

Sanaa Harroussi: No, I’m all right. But [00:39:30] the downside is I can be a bit too tough on myself. But lately, [00:39:35] I’m trying to kind of be more gentle with myself, give myself a tap in the back and [00:39:40] say. And just think you’re doing your best, and that’s enough. Yeah, yeah. [00:39:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, it’s a problem. It’s a disease of women generally that [00:39:50] they really don’t give themselves a break. Yeah. I’ve noticed. Um, and [00:39:55] this is why I was asking you about having it all, because it’s so difficult to have it. All right. [00:40:00]

Sanaa Harroussi: The retreat is good. Where’d you go? So last year, I went to Ibiza. [00:40:05] Oh, it was amazing. Uh, so it was just all about meditation and [00:40:10] yoga.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that anyway?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, I do Pilates at [00:40:15] least twice a week when I can. Three times a week. It’s great for the backache. I don’t have [00:40:20] that much backache. Since I’ve started Pilates and the loops. These two things combined together did help a lot. Um, [00:40:25] so. Yeah. And then going for retreat. Just for a long weekend. But it makes a huge [00:40:30] difference. You come back really refreshed.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk clinical now. What’s [00:40:35] what’s your favourite kind of treatment?

Sanaa Harroussi: What I would say. Bonding.

Payman Langroudi: Bonding. Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: I love it. [00:40:40] I just love the result and the look on the face of the patient when they hold the mirror.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:40:45] but, I mean, that doesn’t have to be bonding, right? That could be veneers or whatever, like, you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Know, but even, [00:40:50] like.

Payman Langroudi: Sculpt it yourself. You like to actually make the tooth yourself a [00:40:55] bit of an artist.

Sanaa Harroussi: Building it up from from scratch. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But don’t you find with bonding that the [00:41:00] result doesn’t last very long?

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s a balance, and it depends on [00:41:05] the patients with heavy smokers.

Payman Langroudi: And the dentist. Right? Yes. True. True. [00:41:10] Um, but it’s very unforgiving work. That’s the thing. It is [00:41:15] bonding.

Sanaa Harroussi: A tiny little, like, air bubble can just mess up the whole thing. Yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:41:20] But if you think about. We like to talk about mistakes on this pod.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. [00:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: Clinical mistakes.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’ve got a quite funny one.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say clinical? [00:41:30] Clinical error.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, so I had, uh, that was about 15 years [00:41:35] ago or 14 years ago, um.

Payman Langroudi: In the.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uk. In the UK was quite nervous, patient. [00:41:40] And I’m just about to do basic thing as cementing an inlay. Um, [00:41:45] and the patient started panicking, literally pulled out my hand and swallowed the inlay. [00:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: And he pulled your hand out?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. She pulled my hand out, and.

Payman Langroudi: Then you dropped it.

Sanaa Harroussi: And [00:41:55] swallowed it. I was trying it on. I’m just trying if it fits well before cementing it. And she [00:42:00] just.

Payman Langroudi: Happened. She was nervous or something.

Sanaa Harroussi: She had a bit of a gag as well. So literally pull out my hand, swallowed [00:42:05] it and I had to send her for chest x ray. So yeah, that was not fun. [00:42:10]

Payman Langroudi: So what you sent to the hospital?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I had to send her to the hospital for chest [00:42:15] x ray to make sure it didn’t go in the airway. No, it wasn’t stomach. It was fine.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:42:20] happened then?

Sanaa Harroussi: I can’t remember, I think I fitted the Fuji for her back then, [00:42:25] like temporary.

Payman Langroudi: Did she?

Sanaa Harroussi: I think I referred her to. I think she was seen [00:42:30] afterwards by another dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Did she kind of take the blame for it, or was she blaming you?

Sanaa Harroussi: She didn’t [00:42:35] blame me. Of course she knows. It’s not my fault. It was quite traumatic. I think it was taken over by another [00:42:40] dentist afterward.

Payman Langroudi: What about a a treatment that went wrong [00:42:45] in some way? Like did you learn something?

Sanaa Harroussi: So I learned that day I better put [00:42:50] a rubber dam rubber down. That’s I learned that day. Um, Uh.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, from, [00:42:55] from a treatment modality kind of perspective, you know, like, sometimes you do something a [00:43:00] certain way until you see it fail. I mean, 15 years in the same practice, you must [00:43:05] have seen your own work fail a few times. Right? So where is [00:43:10] that kind of comeback and made you think? Think about, oh, I’m going to do things slightly differently [00:43:15] because a lot of people don’t have that privilege. Right? To see.

Sanaa Harroussi: Their own.

Payman Langroudi: Because they move [00:43:20] around so much. What comes to mind when I say that?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:43:25] Using rubber dam makes a big difference, to be honest. Overall, when it [00:43:30] comes to longevity of of uh, of of feelings, for instance, using [00:43:35] the right lab does help to.

Payman Langroudi: The right lab. Yeah. Huge. Huge. [00:43:40] When you use the right lab, you feel like a brilliant dentist. True. And when you use a bad lab, you feel [00:43:45] like a terrible dentist. Yes. And sometimes it’s not you, you know, sometimes it is the lab.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, sometimes [00:43:50] it is the lab. And the worst thing is when they deny it. You know, if they apologise, it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:43:55] well I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t blame like it’s not. It’s not like who’s going to take the blame.

Sanaa Harroussi: But we [00:44:00] work as a team but yeah yeah, yeah. But some labs, they just wouldn’t, um, [00:44:05] wouldn’t take your feedback to learn from it. I’m not giving you the feedback just to criticise. [00:44:10] We want to move on together. Um, when when I see that I’m giving a proper feedback [00:44:15] and they kind of denying it all, not even trying to see where is the problem. You [00:44:20] know, you might need to change the lab. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What aspect of the job do you hate? [00:44:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, what [00:44:30] aspect of the job? I hate working in the stress overall.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:35]

Sanaa Harroussi: Working under pressure because that [00:44:40] can push you to make mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Time pressure.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have that [00:44:45] issue that you’re like, for instance, NHS you can’t give the time?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, no, usually I do give [00:44:50] the time. Even with NHS, I try to find the right balance. I don’t overbook myself, [00:44:55] but you could be more productive rather [00:45:00] than booking a patient. I’ve never been booking every ten minutes.

Payman Langroudi: So how long [00:45:05] do you spend on an average day?

Sanaa Harroussi: Half an hour per patient.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: 15 [00:45:10] minutes if it’s a fit. But usually we really take our time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult running both kind [00:45:15] of both private and NHS in the same situation. Right. Either one of them [00:45:20] gets better or one of them gets worse. You know, there’s there’s it’s hard and [00:45:25] it’s hard to explain to patients. That must be the hardest bit. That’s the hardest bit.

Sanaa Harroussi: What is covered. What [00:45:30] is not covered. Which part has to be private? Which which part can be NHS? Yeah, that’s going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Changing as well. So it’s [00:45:35] difficult explaining to a patient that I’m going to take more time. It’s [00:45:40] kind of a difficult conversation to have because patients say, what do you mean like this? [00:45:45] Or I’m going to use a better material. Even that feels strange, [00:45:50] doesn’t it? Yes. So how did you negotiate that? You must. You must have figured out that conversation.

Sanaa Harroussi: Find a [00:45:55] polite way of explaining it, basically.

Payman Langroudi: What’d you say? Like, [00:46:00] how do you explain to a patient a private feeling over an NHS one? What do you say? The colour. [00:46:05]

Sanaa Harroussi: As well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Using the word cosmetic [00:46:10] filling can help. They can understand whatever cosmetic is more private rather than NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:15]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, and then you offer both. But you [00:46:20] explained that that material more cosmetic is going to give more cosmetic results.

Payman Langroudi: And what [00:46:25] do you reckon that you’re going to do next. Like what. [00:46:30] Have you got a plan. You must have. Right. You’re that planner.

Sanaa Harroussi: I used to plan. [00:46:35] The thing is, I used to plan my life ten years in advance. Before I had my son. [00:46:40] My second son.

Payman Langroudi: That changed. The game.

Sanaa Harroussi: Changed. And I’m kind of like, I’m going to take it one day at [00:46:45] a time and just wait and see. Whatever life is throwing [00:46:50] at me.

Payman Langroudi: But you, for instance, do you ever plan to have your own practice?

Sanaa Harroussi: My own practice? [00:46:55] Um. I’m going to need an amazing associate’s before I can think about [00:47:00] practice. Practice by myself would be too challenging.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but you could. You could buy a practice with [00:47:05] four associates or whatever. You know, like.

Sanaa Harroussi: Possibly.

Payman Langroudi: Owning [00:47:10] your own practice, for instance, as a time constraint. Right?

Sanaa Harroussi: It’s a that’s the thing. It’s a [00:47:15] responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a responsibility.

Sanaa Harroussi: Responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: So but were you not that person [00:47:20] who was always dreaming of owning your own practice? I mean, maybe maybe your son changed that idea, right?

Sanaa Harroussi: It [00:47:25] was in my mind in the long run, but.

Payman Langroudi: Now [00:47:30] it doesn’t bother you?

Sanaa Harroussi: It doesn’t really bother me. If it happens, great. If it doesn’t, it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:47:35] the best lecture you’ve ever been to?

Sanaa Harroussi: Ah. That’s [00:47:40] easy.

Payman Langroudi: Is it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:47:45] is it Your lecture, not [00:47:50] mine. You mean Depeche?

Sanaa Harroussi: Depeche. Palmer? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:47:55]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about your post-grad lectures in France? Surely there was someone there that did something.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. [00:48:00] Yeah. In fixed prosthodontics. We had very [00:48:05] nice ones as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, have you do you ever [00:48:10] do full mouth rehab type cases?

Sanaa Harroussi: Not that many with bonding. [00:48:15] Yes. Yes. With bonding? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Not. Not the sort [00:48:20] of full on prep.

Sanaa Harroussi: Not full on.

Payman Langroudi: Prep.

Sanaa Harroussi: But it was mainly bonding with [00:48:25] free hands.

Payman Langroudi: Aha. So even posterior as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh, [00:48:30] you mean a full mouth.

Payman Langroudi: Full mouth.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay. Um. Yeah. [00:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: You do them.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:48:40]

Payman Langroudi: And digital. Have you, have you sort of gone digital yet. You haven’t.

Sanaa Harroussi: I haven’t [00:48:45] tried that yet. That would be amazing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s a whole that’s a whole thing in itself, right? Like, [00:48:50] and I find, you know, with anything new. Do you, have you ever used Cerec, for instance?

Sanaa Harroussi: We [00:48:55] don’t have it at the practice, unfortunately. So that would make it so much easier. Like to just fit the crown. [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: You say you say that, but I was. I wasn’t a dentist long enough, right? To really get into [00:49:05] anything properly. Right. But one of our practices back in the day brought in [00:49:10] Zurich, and it was before the, you know, now it’s all super duper, right. But back then, you had [00:49:15] to put this powder, like spray powder all over the teeth and then use the scanner. [00:49:20] And the scanner was very big, huge thing. And um, it’s [00:49:25] amazing they used to let you do these things without even going on a course. My principal said, yeah, this is how [00:49:30] you do it. And I just did it. Yeah. And I remember thinking that the first five, [00:49:35] three of them weren’t as good as if I’d taken an impression. [00:49:40] Yes. Yeah. And at the time, I remember thinking, look, I’ve got this situation where I could, I could [00:49:45] take an improv game and it will be perfect. It was like an inlay or onlay inlay situation. [00:49:50] Yeah, it would be perfect. Or I could pull out the cerec and two out of five weren’t [00:49:55] great. There was like, you know, there was some sort of gap or something. You know, I went ahead and cemented [00:50:00] it in. Now, the correct thing to do would be to keep going [00:50:05] here, because the first five of anything you do isn’t great. Right. [00:50:10] And to learn it, there’s a learning curve in these situations. But if [00:50:15] you’ve got something that works, why would you even change? Right. True. But [00:50:20] then again, going forward, everything’s getting more and more digital, right? So, [00:50:25] um, enlightens impressions. Now we’re, I think, 65% [00:50:30] digital. Wow. You know, and it was only a year ago. [00:50:35] We were 50 over 50. And the year before that, it was the other way around, you know, like 40, 60 [00:50:40] in favour of impressions. So that digital sort of wave is coming. [00:50:45] And the question of when do you jump into it? Often [00:50:50] when your boss buys you the equipment. Right? Correct. Yeah. But even if you have [00:50:55] the equipment, do you use it? And do you really, you know, go for.

Sanaa Harroussi: It because you have to have enough marketing to need [00:51:00] it. Because I would cut my I would I would consider getting my own, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Scanner.

Sanaa Harroussi: Scanner if [00:51:05] there was no marketing behind. And I know that it would be used enough.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do Invisalign?

Sanaa Harroussi: I [00:51:10] do Invisalign, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Love it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, but I like playing with the clean [00:51:15] checks. That’s fun.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been on courses for that as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which one? [00:51:20]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, the one they do at, uh. You [00:51:25] know, just hands on for IPR and, uh, clean check. That was [00:51:30] fun.

Payman Langroudi: So first Invisalign, I did. Do you remember your first case? [00:51:35]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So my first case, I went on a weekend course. They [00:51:40] didn’t even really talk about ortho very much. They just talked about how to use the Invisalign software. [00:51:45] And then next minute I’m doing an Invisalign. I honestly couldn’t believe it was [00:51:50] I was allowed to do. You know, I just couldn’t believe it. Do [00:51:55] you remember your first case? Yeah. Was it similar?

Sanaa Harroussi: It was challenging [00:52:00] case, though. I don’t know why. And it was. It was a nightmare with the scan back [00:52:05] then. Uh, I had borrowed scan, but back then they could let you use this. I [00:52:10] think it was, uh, I was having an open day, so I used the scan.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, they give you the scanner [00:52:15] for.

Sanaa Harroussi: You back then? Not anymore. Yeah. Now you have to rent the scan, I think. Yeah. Um, [00:52:20] so I used the scanner for whatever reason around the. Because he had wisdom teeth and I couldn’t [00:52:25] register the wisdom teeth. And I had to keep the scan. I had to bring back the patient the next [00:52:30] day, and I had to have the team over the phone. That’s kind of. It has to. It has to work. [00:52:35] Uh, but the patient was extremely patient. Really? Um. Managed [00:52:40] to sort it out at the end and the result was amazing. He was very, very pleased with the result. So. Yeah. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: And how many have you done now? Many, many.

Sanaa Harroussi: I stopped counting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But loads.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, [00:52:50] quite. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So explain to me the clinch situation. How often do you, do [00:52:55] you end up accepting the one that they send. Never.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh no I always know I’ll always. Now it’s [00:53:00] different because you can get as well some support either from the technician or [00:53:05] from someone from the clinical team.

Payman Langroudi: Of Invisalign.

Sanaa Harroussi: Of Invisalign. So it’s quite [00:53:10] handy. You just call them and the technicians over the phone like within, like, let’s adjust this, that and you can [00:53:15] finalise it there and then, uh, but if it’s a more challenging case and you need [00:53:20] a phone call with the, with the one of, with one of the [00:53:25] orthodontists, then you can arrange a call.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t.

Sanaa Harroussi: Know that.

Payman Langroudi: That facility.

Sanaa Harroussi: So yeah, it’s an amazing facility. [00:53:30] Yeah. And again with Invisalign a bit of perfectionist. That’s the thing. So it’s like back and forth [00:53:35] and let’s adjust this and let’s change that. Can take a bit of a time.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:53:40] you do that thing that overcorrecting?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Important. Right?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, [00:53:45] yeah. Sometimes, especially for the gaps. Overcorrecting can help. Yeah, but you [00:53:50] don’t have to use the aligners for the. I mean, at least you’ve got them. Yeah. [00:53:55] And then if needed, you use them. I see.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see. And what percentage of your cases end up [00:54:00] in refinement.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’d say 30%. No, no. Not always. [00:54:05] Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, but that’s what I’m saying. I’m quite fussy when it comes to initial clincheck. [00:54:10] I wouldn’t go for it until I’m sure everything’s perfect, but.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously.

Sanaa Harroussi: I do my best to. And I [00:54:15] find that more time I spend getting a perfect clincheck the least. But it depends on one case [00:54:20] from one case to the other. Um, but yeah, I don’t rush through the the [00:54:25] clincheck to make sure I get the best result, the best results I can achieve, and then I’m [00:54:30] less likely to need refinement. But with some patients, you still need this. I want it to rotate a tiny bit more so [00:54:35] you get the fussy patients.

Payman Langroudi: Patients become fussy, don’t they?

Sanaa Harroussi: Patients?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. It’s interesting [00:54:40] because you really realise that in ortho that patients become fussier. [00:54:45] Yeah. But then I remember when my kids had ortho. Yeah. I mean, okay, we’re both of us are [00:54:50] dentists here. We both became really fussy. Like, super fussy. And [00:54:55] the weird thing about it is, the minute it’s all out, you stop even thinking about it. You don’t bother [00:55:00] with it anymore. But it’s almost like, oh, this is our one chance to get it right. And poor old, [00:55:05] the doctor told my son, I hope he’s listening. I’m so sorry, [00:55:10] doctor. I took him so many times. Um, but, [00:55:15] you know, have you tried one of the other systems or only Invisalign?

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Only Invisalign. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of alternatives now.

Sanaa Harroussi: Nowadays there’s loads and IPR.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do with [00:55:25] the strip or do you have a thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I do both, I do, I do strip, I do the [00:55:30] disk as well and I do the bur depending on.

Payman Langroudi: On what on on the profile that [00:55:35] you want to achieve.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. But it depends on how much IPR I need to use.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s very little, you just use [00:55:40] a what do you call it? Strip. Strip. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: So [00:55:45] the disk is quite challenging to use. You have to make sure you’re not hurting the soft tissues. It can [00:55:50] be challenging sometimes with the discs.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure, I’m sure.

Sanaa Harroussi: I love the discs overall. Not [00:55:55] everyone does, though for the discs because you really have to be very [00:56:00] cautious with it.

Payman Langroudi: Very gentle with it. Does it cut both sides?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, but you could cut even [00:56:05] the two tissues with it. That’s what you have to be careful about.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a double sided disc though. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:56:10] It’s amazing man. So how much of your work is that? Most of it.

Sanaa Harroussi: No, [00:56:15] I wish.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: No.

Payman Langroudi: How do you get those patients?

Sanaa Harroussi: Most of the [00:56:20] patients would be just recommended patient because. Or my own patient wanting [00:56:25] to go for Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: But you do open days as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: I haven’t [00:56:30] done any for quite a while being too busy, as I think it’s just finding the time.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:56:35] So are you in that cycle of udas and having to finish your udas on time and all [00:56:40] of that?

Sanaa Harroussi: So we tend to be overperforming rather than underperforming. Oh really? We don’t have a big contract, [00:56:45] which makes it easier, which is a good thing because it gives you more time to do more private treatment. Um. [00:56:50]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say 70 over 30, it’s the patients are NHS patients, [00:56:55] but 70% of the work you’re doing is.

Sanaa Harroussi: 70% private and 30.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but [00:57:00] they’re all NHS patients. Yeah. The majority are NHS patients.

Sanaa Harroussi: Majority NHS patients. But most of [00:57:05] the patients there do private treatments as well. They wouldn’t go for self-referral. Obviously they would prefer [00:57:10] like a private venture private crown. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Final [00:57:15] questions fantasy dinner party.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Three [00:57:20] guests.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive. Are you having. [00:57:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Start with Elizabeth the second. The queen.

Payman Langroudi: The queen. [00:57:30] The latest queen.

Sanaa Harroussi: Elizabeth the second.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:57:35] mum doesn’t like Camilla and I call her the Queen. [00:57:40] Okay, I know she’s.

Sanaa Harroussi: The.

Payman Langroudi: Queen. Yeah, [00:57:45] the. Let’s face it, the queen is Elizabeth. Yeah. The Queen. Okay. [00:57:50]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. And second guest, uh, Hassan [00:57:55] the second. He used to be the king of Morocco.

Payman Langroudi: Morocco? Yeah. [00:58:00] When?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, up to 1999. Oh, yeah. That’s [00:58:05] when Mohammed the sixth. The one who was in reign now.

Payman Langroudi: Um. Huh.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. And [00:58:10] third one, um, it’s a poet and diplomat [00:58:15] called Nizar Qabbani. He was from Syria, and, uh, [00:58:20] he was he studied law, and then he worked as a diplomat all [00:58:25] over, um, the world. So Beirut. Madrid. [00:58:30] Cairo and London as well.

Payman Langroudi: What was the.

Sanaa Harroussi: Name? Uh, Nizar.

Payman Langroudi: Nizar. [00:58:35] Kabbani.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. Very famous poet. Not just a diplomat, [00:58:40] but he was a poet as well.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sanaa Harroussi: My favourite poet.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And the final [00:58:45] question. It’s a weird one. It’s like deathbed question. Yes. Three pieces [00:58:50] of advice for your loved ones.

Sanaa Harroussi: For my loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: For the world.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay. [00:58:55] So live for yourself, not for others. Don’t let anyone judge you. Just [00:59:00] try to be the best version of yourself. Uh, don’t be too harsh on [00:59:05] yourself and look after yourself. Most importantly.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:59:10] you feel like those lessons you learned a bit too late? The. Don’t be too harsh on [00:59:15] yourself and live for yourself. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: That was the advice [00:59:20] that I was given by my friend who passed away last year. Oh, that was her advice. And so I learned from her [00:59:25] that part. Not. Don’t try too hard just [00:59:30] to please everyone. Do your best. And that’s it. That’s more than enough.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful, [00:59:35] beautiful place to end it. Thank you so much for coming.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you. Thank you [00:59:40] so.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Sanaa Harroussi: Really a pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [00:59:45] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [00:59:50] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:59:55] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:00:00] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:00:05] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to [01:00:10] what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:00:15] of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:00:20] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much [01:00:25] for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Aliph Moosajee, otherwise known as The [00:01:00] Smiling Dentist. Onto the podcast. Nice smile there. You’ve got. Hello. Hi, [00:01:05] Payman.

Alif Moosajee: Thank you. Thank you so much. It would be very off brand if I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know, [00:01:10] you’ve been smiling dentist from the beginning, right?

Alif Moosajee: Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, well, I wrote a book. [00:01:15] Uh, it’s going back about 12 years ago, I remember it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there was a book. There was?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [00:01:20] And I decided to call it The Smiling Dentist. In my infinite wisdom, I’m not sure. Now, [00:01:25] I think back sometimes to, uh, Jamie Oliver. Yeah. I don’t know if you remember when he first [00:01:30] started, he was the naked chef. Yeah. And he very quickly dropped that tagline [00:01:35] because he realised it wasn’t serving him. Unfortunately, mine seems to have perpetuated further [00:01:40] than I would like it to. So even on my very grumpy days and my sad and [00:01:45] reflective and very pissed off days, I still have to be smiling.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course I [00:01:50] didn’t even think about that.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, but then again, I know they they do talk about this, whereby [00:01:55] when we’re happy, we smile.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: But I think the, uh, the reverse is [00:02:00] true. Sometimes faking a smile can sometimes trick you into feeling happier than [00:02:05] than you really are.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, kind of like that Tony Robbins kind of way of thinking about [00:02:10] things. Yeah, like standing up straight.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: The effect of physiology [00:02:15] on psychology.

Alif Moosajee: Quite right. And I know, uh, we [00:02:20] touch on dinner guests, but. But Tony Robbins probably would be one of my dinner guests, because, yeah, [00:02:25] there’s there’s there’s a lot. I was very lucky to be introduced to him [00:02:30] when I was, uh, quite young in my career. It was only like a year qualified.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:35]

Alif Moosajee: And, uh, and, uh, and as such, uh, it’s I’ve [00:02:40] been able to, to take some of his teachings throughout my career and [00:02:45] throughout my life as well.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been to one of the events?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a few times, actually. [00:02:50] Oh, really? So he has his flagship one. It’s called Unleash the Power Within where you walk on fire [00:02:55] and stuff. Yeah, I’ve done that three times. Three times three. Yeah, yeah. So twice on my own. [00:03:00] And then once with my wife, Romana. Um, and then I’ve [00:03:05] also been out to Florida. He does another one called Business Mastery. Uh, so I went out there. [00:03:10] It’s a slightly smaller event. Uh, but yeah, it was really good, actually.

Payman Langroudi: So I read the book. [00:03:15] When when was it? I just qualified, and then I [00:03:20] bought some CDs.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. And it’s so funny, I had I had, uh, one [00:03:25] of the CD changer. Yes, yes. My, my mum said [00:03:30] to me, I think I was like 19 or something, and my mum said, what do you want for your birthday? And I said, [00:03:35] I want a CD changer. Yeah. And, uh, I put this CD changer [00:03:40] in my I think it was like Alfa Romeo at the time. And then something happened to it [00:03:45] where I couldn’t eject the five CDs that were in there.

Alif Moosajee: Right. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so basically, I had the same five CDs.

Alif Moosajee: And it was all Tony Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: It was. [00:03:55] No, no, one of them was actually. Wait a minute. This. Oh, yeah. The CDs were after I qualified. [00:04:00] It was, it was, it was. We started enlightened by that time. Okay. We started I read the book [00:04:05] early on, but, um, so then at that time, there was no internet, right? There was no online [00:04:10] training. So at the beginning of enlightened, people would say, you know, some guy in Lincoln [00:04:15] would say, send a rep, and that would be me, right? I would be the one [00:04:20] going to every single sales call.

Alif Moosajee: Oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: And man, I remember it was such painful days, man. I [00:04:25] remember like, I’m terrible with directions as it goes anyway, but I’d have [00:04:30] to drive to Lincoln, right? Obviously figure out how to get to Lincoln first of all. Then [00:04:35] go to a petrol station, buy an A to Z of Lincoln, right. And [00:04:40] then find the practice in there. And then, you know, there was no satnav. So [00:04:45] it was a different world, wasn’t it?

Alif Moosajee: It really was.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, at that time companies [00:04:50] used to have like regional I mean, they still do regional reps. Yes, those regional reps would know the [00:04:55] area really well. They’d know the practices, but we had nobody. It was just me. It was literally me. [00:05:00] And so I would be the one picking up the phone. I’d be the one setting up the appointment, [00:05:05] turning up and everything else, developing the products and everything. And um, [00:05:10] like I say, the multi-channel got stuck. And one of the 20 [00:05:15] CDs of Tony Robbins was in there, and I must have listened [00:05:20] to this one CD. Um, it must have been a hundred times. Wow. At [00:05:25] least a hundred times. Because, you know, I only had these five CDs to play with. Absolutely. Yeah. And what [00:05:30] it really taught me was the power of repetition. Yeah. Well.

Alif Moosajee: Well, quite.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:05:35] because I know I’ve quoted some of the lessons from that one [00:05:40] CD.

Alif Moosajee: Right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: To friends and family and people and people at work. And [00:05:45] it was all about overwhelm. Yeah. What do you do if you’re in overwhelm? Yeah. And the five questions [00:05:50] to ask yourself. And I don’t remember any of the other 19 CDs. Yeah, I [00:05:55] remember little inkling. Yeah, but that one. And so on. Our composite [00:06:00] course, we do this repetition thing where, you know, there are new words, aren’t there? [00:06:05] You know, microfill composite. You know, people, first time you tell someone you’ve got microfill, you’ve got nanofiller, [00:06:10] you’ve got, you know, Microhybrid. Yeah. Most dentists, these are new words. Yeah. And [00:06:15] so the repetition of those words and even the idea that we get people to come back [00:06:20] to the course as many times as they like, they sit in the back because repetition [00:06:25] is so important. I really such an interesting thing.

Alif Moosajee: And it’s funny you mention that because I mentioned I’ve been on that [00:06:30] particular Tony Robbins thing three times. Yeah, but I was in slightly different places [00:06:35] in my life each time. And so I heard the message, and I bet that’s the [00:06:40] same if on a dental course as well. I bet the I don’t know if this happens [00:06:45] to you, but sometimes you’ll have a patient in mind that you’re thinking, right, that would [00:06:50] be the perfect one to use this particular new skill I’ve got on. And [00:06:55] if that patient, the next time you go on the course is somebody different, with a slightly different challenge, [00:07:00] you’ll hear a whole other set of tips, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: The questions you have in your head when you haven’t tried [00:07:05] a case yet, compared to the questions you have once you’ve tried a few times.

Alif Moosajee: You’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Tried totally different questions. [00:07:10]

Alif Moosajee: I quite, quite agree, but.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me if you had to put it in a nutshell, what did these Tony [00:07:15] Robbins days do for you? Like, now talk me through basically what [00:07:20] happens and and I mean, I notice people I know other people who’ve gone, gone, gone [00:07:25] on them. People go into it sort of, um, not very focussed and come out of it [00:07:30] with life goals. Yeah, yeah. So go on, give me, give me, give me a little summary. What happens?

Alif Moosajee: One [00:07:35] of the, um, misunderstandings is it’s all rah rah positivity. Yeah, I [00:07:40] think there’s a lot more structured than that. And it’s very clever the way that he teaches. [00:07:45] And he does go into it. And I’m happy to share some of those things as well. But in a nutshell, for me, [00:07:50] what I felt is that a lot of what we learn as human beings is not [00:07:55] actively learned. It’s just by watching people and watching their patterns [00:08:00] and thinking that that pattern is the right pattern, or thinking it’s wrong and rejecting [00:08:05] it. So sometimes you have kids who are quote unquote good kids. They’re good kids because [00:08:10] they do what their parents tell them to do and do what they do as well. And then you sometimes have [00:08:15] rebellious kids who look at their parents, um, I suppose, uh, examples [00:08:20] and reject them outright. But if you only have those two, then [00:08:25] a lot of the time we’re not consciously thinking about what [00:08:30] we’re doing. And I think one of the key things was that I learned that I had [00:08:35] a choice. I learned that there was a framework for understanding also [00:08:40] what is going through other people’s heads and what they’re communicating to me. [00:08:45]

Alif Moosajee: So there is a way there of managing my own state, my own [00:08:50] emotions, and choosing whether I decide to be pissed off by something, or do [00:08:55] I decide to be happy when this kind of thing happens? Um, I think that was one of [00:09:00] the key, key learnings. But the thing that I do enjoy, and, uh, I’ve learned [00:09:05] to love now, is that he makes the audience very excited. And [00:09:10] the reason is, he explains that whenever we learn something new, it’s [00:09:15] like a new neural connection has been made. Now, if we make [00:09:20] that connection, it will be very, very weak and we can strengthen it [00:09:25] through. You’ve already said it. Repetition. Or if you are super excited [00:09:30] and engaged at the time, you can hear that message once and it you know, it really [00:09:35] anchors in. So this business about knowing when the room the energy is dropping [00:09:40] and getting people to stand up and you know, he plays music and everyone’s dancing and all this stuff’s going on, [00:09:45] is to re-engage so that we’re more receptive and take the messages home.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:50] have you you’ve done some lecturing in your time? Yeah. Have you found yourself sort of using those tactics? [00:09:55]

Alif Moosajee: Well, the unfortunately the Dental audience is, is a little [00:10:00] bit more conservative, certainly, than the American audience.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone who wants to come here, say hi. [00:10:05] Yeah, exactly.

Alif Moosajee: But I remember in my early days there [00:10:10] was an American lecture called John Kanka. I remember John, yeah. Top guy. Very clever [00:10:15] guy. And he came over and, you know, he started the presentation with this [00:10:20] great music and speakers and everything going. And then I think the room [00:10:25] was not receptive to it. We weren’t ready as British dentists for this. So [00:10:30] but I think that there are those who are doing it. And I certainly find that if [00:10:35] I can engage and excite in a way and and to tell a story [00:10:40] as well, I’ve found that as human beings, often A lot of the lessons we learn [00:10:45] are through stories like Aesop’s Fables and things like this. So if you can control [00:10:50] a narrative and tell a good story, you can often impart a lesson quite nicely. [00:10:55] And sometimes the audience won’t even know that they’ve learnt a lesson.

Payman Langroudi: You know, one [00:11:00] of the questions I normally ask at the end I’m going to ask you right now is what was [00:11:05] the best lecture you’ve ever been to?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And when I think about lecturers [00:11:10] and you can, you can marinate in it while I tell you my story about lecturers. [00:11:15] Um, you know, there’s a, there’s a, you know, in the same way as, as a dentist, [00:11:20] you’ve got your clinical skills and then you’ve got your soft skills, your communication skills. [00:11:25] And and in many ways, the communication skills are just as important as the clinical [00:11:30] skills. Yes. And I think about lecturers, you know, there’s different styles of lecturing, [00:11:35] you know. Um, and you know, famous ones like, uh, for [00:11:40] me, for me, the best lecture I ever went to was Gallop Girl. [00:11:45] Okay. Um, and it was a combination of hero worship [00:11:50] for that, for that Adonis of a man who is an Olympic, [00:11:55] whatever. He was a water polo player or whatever he was. But also the technique [00:12:00] was was something that he kind of discovered himself. That was it, that empty technique, whatever [00:12:05] the, the the the, um, uh, temporising technique, [00:12:10] where he would drill off just the right amount of, of it. So it was a new technique, right. And [00:12:15] then the the presentation, the presentation was awe inspiring. I mean, at [00:12:20] the time, you know, things would move around and beautiful presentation. Now [00:12:25] you’ve got that. And now I remember that as my favourite lecture that I ever went to.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:12:30] I’ve sat in a lot on Chris Orr’s lectures. Yes. And, you [00:12:35] know, Chris is a phenomenon, right, in terms of the way he sells out and, and how, you know, [00:12:40] I’ve given every single young dentist the advice of go on the Chris Haw course. Yes, I’ve sat in [00:12:45] on a lot of his lectures because, you know, we do enlighten over there. And his presentation’s [00:12:50] not beautiful at all. It’s not. It’s not even. It’s not trying to be beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:12:55] But he’s got a way of I think it’s very interesting that you can be there [00:13:00] can be breadth in a presentation or there can be depth in it. [00:13:05] And he’s got a wonderful way of combining breadth and depth together. Yes. Whereas where [00:13:10] you feel like he’s covered the whole subject, but he’s gone deep enough in the different parts of it [00:13:15] and totally different presentation styles. Dipesh I mean, his [00:13:20] presentation is just something else. I mean, it’s the most beautiful thing you’ll ever [00:13:25] see on the screen. Yeah. And then his his kind of technique is very sort of casually [00:13:30] talking about the process of what he does. Yeah. Very rarely [00:13:35] does he mention the patient’s sort of social All situation. He’s very much [00:13:40] in the teeth. Yes. And then sometimes we have Matty. Matty Parsons, he does the [00:13:45] marketing piece.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And his is much more about the person, the communications. [00:13:50] When a patient says to you, I trust you, you go ahead and decide yourself. That’s the danger [00:13:55] patient. Yeah. You know, when a patient tells you exactly what they want, that’s much easier. They’ve almost made the [00:14:00] treatment plan for you. It’s very interesting. You know, the the ways of teaching. And now we’ve [00:14:05] got all the online part. Yes. You know, you can you can send all the lectures before time. [00:14:10] Yeah. And you know, people could read them and then do all hands on. Um, it’s [00:14:15] an interesting thing. Now, I’m interested in your career insomuch [00:14:20] as I’ve been to your practice. Oakdale. Beautiful. Thank you. Beautiful. I’m sure it’s even [00:14:25] more beautiful now than the way I would characterise it. A bit like a Ralph Lauren [00:14:30] sort of showroom. Yeah. Sort of thing. Yeah. Um, I [00:14:35] want to hear the whole story of Oakdale, But also, you’ve also just been around [00:14:40] on the circuit to see all used to see all the famous educational events and [00:14:45] in all the sort of trade fairs and so on. What is it about you that that [00:14:50] makes you that guy? And and not sort of the guy who just sits in a surgery and you’re involved in [00:14:55] the dental world?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, when did that happen? Was there an inflection?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, there [00:15:00] was, there was, um, I, I started as an undergraduate. [00:15:05] Um. And where.

Payman Langroudi: Did you.

Alif Moosajee: Study? So it was Birmingham. Birmingham. And, [00:15:10] uh, I’ve always been reasonably clever, and I don’t mean that with hubris, honestly. It just I [00:15:15] was good at picking up stuff. Um, but then when it came to doing practical stuff, [00:15:20] I was probably the worst in the year. Um, and I remember having a really, [00:15:25] really tough time of it on clinic. I remember doing the amalgam test, failing it [00:15:30] twice. Um, so. So that was something I, you know, I was really upset about because [00:15:35] I thought, right, all I want to do is to be a good dentist. And for all the knowledge [00:15:40] I have and I’ve absorbed and assimilated and I pass all the tests first time, all of that. But [00:15:45] I wasn’t able to do the bloody job. Um, and [00:15:50] so that, that, that really, you know, killed my confidence. And I spent a long time, you know, [00:15:55] on those clinical years just trying to fly under the radar and not get in trouble. Yeah. And then that was what [00:16:00] the start of my career was like. And I felt like, right, I’m just going to be a very humble exam [00:16:05] scale and polish, you know, do the odd filling here and there, and I’ll just keep myself out of trouble. And [00:16:10] that’s how I’ll see my years out. Um, and then I remember it was, [00:16:15] I think I was probably seven, seven years qualified. I’d spent some time in the NHS and then moved [00:16:20] into private practice, um, as an associate. And then I actually I got [00:16:25] a complaint, uh, and it was about a scale and polish. Yeah. [00:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: Of all things.

Alif Moosajee: Of all things. Um, and what had happened was the patient had developed [00:16:35] some sensitivity afterwards. Um, and then came back. Came [00:16:40] back to practices. I want a refund, I want compensation, um, and [00:16:45] I remember calling up Dental protection. It was Raj Rutton who was actually the advisor [00:16:50] for me. And he says he looked at the notes and he says, no, these are fine, watertight. [00:16:55] You know, you can do what you want so you can either pay the money back to him or you [00:17:00] can tell him to piss off, basically, and you’ll be fine. Um, and I remember [00:17:05] the guy actually saying that if if I don’t have the refund it was in the letter, then basically [00:17:10] I’m going to let the regulator know. So the GDC will be informed. And I was like, I didn’t really like [00:17:15] the thought of blackmail as well. And I thought, I’m going to stand my ground and tell him to do [00:17:20] one. It was a mistake, I think, at the time, because unfortunately [00:17:25] he did go to the GDC. The GDC did create a case. Um, and I [00:17:30] still remember getting the letter, uh, from them which formerly told me about the complaint. [00:17:35]

Alif Moosajee: And if there’s one thing I can do, which I hope would be of of value to the listeners, [00:17:40] is to explain that what happens with the GDC is that [00:17:45] so, you know, in a normal court, you have the judge, you have the defence, and [00:17:50] then you have the prosecution. And what the prosecution have to do is paint the defendant [00:17:55] as the worst person possible, throw as much shit as they can, and some [00:18:00] of it will stick. And then the defence and then the judge makes the judgement. Now [00:18:05] I forgot that what the GDC they have two parts to that [00:18:10] equation. They are the judge as well as the prosecution. So I’m [00:18:15] reading this letter telling me you failed to blah, you failed to blah. And [00:18:20] I’m thinking, oh my God, this is already the the judgement. This is the judge [00:18:25] hat of the GDC saying these things. And, and I remember getting letters [00:18:30] and like my heart would be pounding as I’m reading them and just getting through them. It was a [00:18:35] really, really horrible, horrible time. And I remember it dragged on for for about a year. [00:18:40]

Payman Langroudi: A year, yeah, over a scale and polish.

Alif Moosajee: Scale and polish. What happened was I [00:18:45] was working in a practice. I was an associate in a satellite practice. And what [00:18:50] they had done was they’d had a it was I mean, it wasn’t good marketing stunt in a sense that they [00:18:55] did check-ups that were cheaper than the NHS. But then the in [00:19:00] the treatment, I mean, it was not expensive. It was like not bad, not terribly like out [00:19:05] of line with NHS prices. But what they’d done was they’d decided to say on the marketing that we are [00:19:10] cheaper than the NHS. Now obviously that is misleading [00:19:15] in hindsight. I mean, I wasn’t really involved in the marketing, it wasn’t my job. I rock up and I do the dentistry. [00:19:20] The problem is that because the management were non registrants, [00:19:25] then what would happen is the buck ends up falling with whoever [00:19:30] the buck can fall with. And the GDC are going to go after the person who they [00:19:35] can. Yeah, I learned all of this. It didn’t, you know, Combobulated there’s no point [00:19:40] in the GDC trying to go after a non registrant. They’ve got absolutely no power over that person. [00:19:45] Whereas if you are a registrant, they’ve got all the power over you.

Payman Langroudi: Was it a corporate.

Alif Moosajee: Uh [00:19:50] it wasn’t actually a corporate. It was well I suppose like a mini one because there was a clinical guy, but he [00:19:55] had his own practice somewhere else. And then it was is his uncle that was managing [00:20:00] this practice. And I think between them, they were able to submit enough evidence to say that it [00:20:05] was a registrant who was, you know, part and parcel of it. But I [00:20:10] realised when everybody went into survival mode to try and shift blame elsewhere, [00:20:15] in the end, the blame fell on me for this misleading thing. [00:20:20] So what had turned from a scale and polish? Because we know what GDC like. They are [00:20:25] ferocious investigators. So what I mean by that, I that, I think, is in medicine with the GMC, [00:20:30] if the patient makes a complaint about broken ankle not treated [00:20:35] properly, the whole of the investigation is around that treatment and.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:20:40] is limited.

Alif Moosajee: It’s limited. Whereas what the GDC do is that they will [00:20:45] look at the initial thing and then they will look through everything else, [00:20:50] uh, and anything that is they deem as wrongdoing, then they will go for. [00:20:55] And that’s sometimes challenging.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, in the end? Uh, yeah. [00:21:00] I mean, it got dark because this business about being misleading, then [00:21:05] they talk about there’s there’s one tier which is misleading. Then there’s another deliberately misleading. [00:21:10] And then the last one is dishonest. Now, if you’re found dishonest, then [00:21:15] your professional, uh, your I suppose your ability to, uh, [00:21:20] be professional is brought into disrepute, and you can be [00:21:25] struck off. So this was.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Alif Moosajee: Like, shit, this has got out of hand here. [00:21:30] But once the wheels are in motion, it’s a problem. In the end, in the end, [00:21:35] in the end. Thank God it all went away. I think they looked at some of what? [00:21:40] What was presented to them. They’d actually assessed it incorrectly. [00:21:45] Like they’d said. There was no medical history when there was a medical history. So, you know, they painted me in a very [00:21:50] poor light because they just hadn’t bothered to look at the pack properly. Um, so in the end it [00:21:55] went away. And then what I reflected from it was that [00:22:00] if I can fly or try to fly under the radar as [00:22:05] much as that, and then get shafted and go all [00:22:10] the way to the GDC, then what am I doing? I’m wasting my life. [00:22:15] I’m wasting my career. Yeah, I’m going to put myself out there. Let’s do some stuff. [00:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: So that literally sort of propelled you.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. So within within about a year I bought [00:22:25] a practice. I didn’t buy that little satellite practice. I thought, if I’m going to buy a practice, I’ll buy a big practice. [00:22:30] So I found this practice. Um, for whatever reason, nobody else wanted it because [00:22:35] I think they were all really scared at that time. Oakdale. Yeah. I think everybody wanted NHS. They [00:22:40] were all vested in this guaranteed paycheque. They were all scared that if they buy a practice. [00:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: Was it existing as a private.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, it was a it was a referral practice actually. [00:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: Back then was quite rare.

Alif Moosajee: It was rare.

Payman Langroudi: How many years ago are we talking.

Alif Moosajee: Uh, we talked about 12 years ago now. So 2014, [00:22:55] I bought it.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah. Yeah, still much rarer than today.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:23:00]

Alif Moosajee: Um, and so I think a lot of people. Yeah, we’re just worried that the principal who was there, he was [00:23:05] quite a personality as well. I think they’re all scared that once he retired or left, then, then they’d lose all the goodwill. [00:23:10] I thought, no, that’s my mission, to give them something to stay for. Um, [00:23:15] so I bought this practice. I decided to learn to do implants. [00:23:20] Uh, got really heavily into digital, um, when I had, uh, started a study club [00:23:25] at the practice.

Payman Langroudi: What was it when you bought it? How many chairs? How many patients.

Alif Moosajee: Was, uh, five. [00:23:30] Yeah, five. Surgery practice. Physically, uh, but it was probably about [00:23:35] two and a half surgeries in the sense that everybody was part time. Dentists were coming in and doing two days [00:23:40] a week or three days a week. So it was very bitty. And Bobby, there was sort [00:23:45] of general dentistry happening.

Payman Langroudi: Are you up for talking about numbers? Yeah. Like what did you pay for it? [00:23:50]

Alif Moosajee: I paid um. Six. [00:23:55] No, no, no, it was seven 5750. I [00:24:00] think it was maybe a bit more. 780, actually. So.

Payman Langroudi: And how did you raise it? Did you how much [00:24:05] did you put in yourself and how much did you borrow? And, uh, which I’m sure is different these days to those days. [00:24:10] But but what was it like, do you remember yourself having to save up heavily to, to [00:24:15] to in order to do this?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. I had to save.

Payman Langroudi: And was it was it in your head you were always going to buy a practice. [00:24:20] No it wasn’t.

Alif Moosajee: No. It wasn’t. Um, before [00:24:25] that GDC thing, I had resigned. I’m not going to do implants, you know, [00:24:30] like you have these conversations in your mind. So I don’t think implants are for me. Yeah, I like [00:24:35] doing ortho. Yeah. So I’ll go for a bit of ortho. So six months smiles and stuff like [00:24:40] that. Um, and I’m not going to own a practice, so I don’t want the hassle of it. Yeah, I’ll be happy as an associate, [00:24:45] so I’d kind of cut those things off. And it was whether whether it’s, you [00:24:50] know, the, the ultimate rebound, uh, from this horrible relationship, you know, [00:24:55] like, sometimes you talk to people.

Payman Langroudi: Script themselves though, isn’t it? Because I did exactly [00:25:00] the same thing with regards to implants. And I remember when I qualified, it was just like it [00:25:05] was just the start of implants. And it would have been a smart move to go into implants, [00:25:10] but I thought, not for me. Yes. It’s such a weird thing. Yeah. No, I by the way, I don’t think I would have been [00:25:15] the best implantologist. But but you know, one person does that and the other person [00:25:20] says, oh, I like the idea of being a surgeon or something. Yeah, it’s just the idea of being a surgeon, [00:25:25] because the actual, you know, learning of it is a long step by step process. [00:25:30] Mentors all the things you have to do to learn implants. Right. And and neither person [00:25:35] really knows what they’re getting into. Yes, but we script ourselves. [00:25:40] Yeah. Like you’d scripted yourself as a as an associate forever. Yeah. And then it took [00:25:45] this event for you to say, now I’m going to own a practice. Yeah. And thank goodness you did own a practice, [00:25:50] right? Because you feels like you thrived in in Oakdale. [00:25:55]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It’s it’s nice. It’s become I realise it’s tough, but [00:26:00] it’s a blessing and and it’s what it allows you to become as a [00:26:05] person, to overcome all of those challenges. You grow. Yeah, yeah. And now [00:26:10] if people ask me questions or they say, how do I do this? I know, I know the answer [00:26:15] because I’ve been there. I’ve had to figure it out. So So I realised that I [00:26:20] think I was probably after an easy life once upon a time. And now [00:26:25] I realise that the secret is not to hope that your problems [00:26:30] are small, but to hope that you will always be bigger than whatever problem comes to you. [00:26:35] Because that’s that’s the measure of you as a person, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: So where did you grow up, Lester? [00:26:40]

Alif Moosajee: Uh, no, I grew up in Slough. Oh, yeah? So, uh, parents are still there. In [00:26:45] fact, they’re in the process of moving at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your connection to? Is Romana from.

Alif Moosajee: Romana is from Leicester. [00:26:50] Um, but I was already in the Midlands because I studied in Birmingham. I stayed, uh, my [00:26:55] first job was in Wolverhampton, so I already knew I liked the Midlands. Um, and then I [00:27:00] went to visit Leicester a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s rewind. Why dentistry?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, yeah, a work experience. [00:27:05] I actually, I remember it well, it was year ten, um, and we had two [00:27:10] weeks of work experience. And at that point, as any good Indian boy should be, I was either [00:27:15] going to be a doctor or a lawyer. And I remember they got me one week in a magistrates [00:27:20] court court just to see what law was all about. And then they couldn’t find me [00:27:25] a doctor, so. Oh, he probably won’t notice. Stick him in a dental practice instead. [00:27:30] Um, but I absolutely loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Who is your parent? Your school. School? School?

Alif Moosajee: School. [00:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: And you loved watching a dentist?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I know it’s weird, but what I really [00:27:40] liked was the fact that people came in broken or sick, and the dentist did [00:27:45] some, like, magic, and everything was all right again, and I got hooked on [00:27:50] that. I thought it was brilliant. Um, and then, yeah, I sort of geared everything [00:27:55] up to. What were.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Alif Moosajee: Liking.

Payman Langroudi: In dental school? I mean, um, outside of the academic. [00:28:00]

Alif Moosajee: Outside the academic. I fell into, quote unquote, the wrong crowd. [00:28:05] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the party crowd.

Alif Moosajee: The party crowd? Yeah. But no, my friends [00:28:10] are amazing. And we’re still, like, get together.

Payman Langroudi: With dentists or dentists.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, most of them are dentists. [00:28:15] Yeah. And we were. We were. I suppose we were quite well known, uh, throughout the dental school and [00:28:20] the uni, as well as being. Yeah. As being those guys. Um, but yeah. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: What was it like first time away from home, sort of that thing?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It was, I [00:28:30] wouldn’t say that I was, I was put on a very aggressive leash by my parents. [00:28:35] I think it was probably self perpetuated.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Alif Moosajee: There was something [00:28:40] I picked up which, which was, which really interested me. It was how, you know, often [00:28:45] as children, in order to ensure that we have attention [00:28:50] from our parents, we will often carve an identity out that’s [00:28:55] different from our siblings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a survival instinct. Now, my brother happened to [00:29:00] be the rebellious child, so that one was already taken.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the oldest.

Alif Moosajee: No, I’m I’m I’m [00:29:05] the younger.

Payman Langroudi: Of the two of you.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, just two of us. Um. And so I was always the. [00:29:10] I was really a good kid, honestly. I was just, like, proper. Um, but. And I’d come [00:29:15] home, I’d do my homework and all the rest. So I feel like some of this, um, being [00:29:20] a good boy, it wasn’t because my parents made me. It was just that that was who I was. And that’s the identity that I’d [00:29:25] created.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve only got one one child, but, um, apparently billionaires [00:29:30] are often fourth kids.

Alif Moosajee: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: For that very reason. For that reason, the [00:29:35] other roles are taken.

Alif Moosajee: And they have to think.

Payman Langroudi: And think outside the box. And then and but I see it happening [00:29:40] with, with my kids, you know, you script one who does well at an exam, you go, well, he’s the clever kid, [00:29:45] right. And then you positively feedback that. And then the other one might say something funny and you [00:29:50] go, oh well, she’s the funny one. Yeah, yeah. And you and you say it to them and, and that’s the [00:29:55] person they end up becoming for that reason. You know, it’s a funny thing. It’s a weird thing. [00:30:00]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I think you’re right. I think, uh, they call it the. Is it the Pygmalion effect whereby [00:30:05] if you are told, oh, you’re the clever one in the class, then you have to [00:30:10] live up to that. And, yeah, you’re pigeonholed. That’s why I tried to be really careful about these [00:30:15] labels. I don’t mind if my daughter Annie, does something stupid, but I would never call her [00:30:20] a stupid person because otherwise she will live up to being while we’re on.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on [00:30:25] fatherhood. Number one, would you recommend for her to become a dentist? [00:30:30]

Alif Moosajee: Um, okay. I mean, we’ve had we’ve had this chat. She doesn’t want to be, by the way, but [00:30:35] I would love her to be. And I think it’s because I have had, you know, [00:30:40] a very a really good career, actually. I mean, the start was weird, but, [00:30:45] um, this part of it is, is really fun. It’s varied. I get to do [00:30:50] lots of different things, like, you know, I’m in control of what I want to do. So I feel like I could [00:30:55] give her the recipe for how to be, you know, very happy as a dentist. Um, [00:31:00] and also from a super selfish reason I’d, I’d love to have a buddy to go [00:31:05] on courses with and, you know, do all of those things.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, plenty of people sit here in front of me and say, I [00:31:10] don’t want my kids to go into dentistry. Why do you think that is?

Alif Moosajee: It is hard. It’s tough, [00:31:15] but I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Everything worthwhile is.

Alif Moosajee: Tough. Everything worthwhile is tough. And I think [00:31:20] that’s that’s where I would go with that. Because I feel like the greatest gift it’s given me is to [00:31:25] make me the person I am. As we just mentioned, as a result of the spots it’s put me in. [00:31:30] Um, and I feel like I’d be denying her, uh, that opportunity [00:31:35] if I told her not to do it for that reason. However, her her skills are different [00:31:40] to mine. She’s a performer, dancer, singer. A very good singer. And so, um. [00:31:45] Yeah, she’s already involved in stuff in our theatre in Leicester. The curve. [00:31:50] So, uh, so she wants to pursue that.

Payman Langroudi: So you bought the practice? It [00:31:55] was a private practice. Private practices tend to have that issue with not enough patients. [00:32:00] Generally, that tends to be the big issue with private practices. So this was a well established. [00:32:05] You said the guy was a bit of a character.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So were there plenty of patients?

Alif Moosajee: So there were patients, [00:32:10] but we still had to grow. There was there was no doubt that we would have [00:32:15] to. And the reason I knew that was a key point was that a [00:32:20] lot of the revenue did come from the referrals that he generated. [00:32:25] Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Did he stay on or anything?

Alif Moosajee: And he did. He did. I think he was unhappy [00:32:30] because he did not like being the owner of a practice. He was also [00:32:35] doing general dentistry as well as some implant stuff. So what I did was I had a nice [00:32:40] chat with him and I said, look, how can I make your life better? So obviously the running [00:32:45] of the practice, we took off and that was going to happen anyway. But I also removed the general dentistry, [00:32:50] reduced his hours a bit. Not in a malicious way, but just it is what it is. And he was happy to do that. [00:32:55] And he ended up just doing implants. So the guy’s coming in and he’s living his best life. [00:33:00] So instead of staying on for the two years, I think he agreed. He ended up staying on [00:33:05] for seven.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: And he ended up being a real asset because he’s [00:33:10] generating his own goodwill. I’m not having to market to bring new patients to him, because it’s [00:33:15] the relationships that he’s formed by doing such a good job for the dentists that refer. [00:33:20] And, you know, to his credit, he didn’t hold back. He taught me [00:33:25] everything he knew. So I was lucky enough to go on the formal implant [00:33:30] courses and learn different opinions from different people. Then I come in and often [00:33:35] of a morning, I’d go into his surgery. I’d sit with him, talk to him about what I’d just learned, [00:33:40] and he’d tell me how much bullshit it was. Well, in the nicest [00:33:45] possible way. But no, he would. He would agree with what he thought was right. He would also add to what [00:33:50] he could.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And at the time when I was learning implants, it was very safe, you know, [00:33:55] take the tooth out, let it heal forever. Put the implant. But he was already well into immediacy. [00:34:00] He was he was very good at it. Um, and I realised for [00:34:05] a number of different reasons that immediate implants is probably the way I feel anyway, [00:34:10] that we look after patients best. So I was then again very clear about [00:34:15] how I wanted to practice my implant dentistry. Um, and [00:34:20] it’s it’s really I think it set me up in a good way to look after patients.

Payman Langroudi: So nice [00:34:25] to have a mentor there. Like, literally in the same building.

Alif Moosajee: In the same building.

Payman Langroudi: And I bet it was probably [00:34:30] nice that you could go to him. Regarding the running of the practice, like systems were in place [00:34:35] and all of that. Yeah, but what about.

Alif Moosajee: The I’ll be honest with you. No, no, because I think that, as I mentioned, [00:34:40] I think the running of the practice was something he didn’t enjoy doing. Yeah, he didn’t do very well. [00:34:45] And I don’t mean that in a nasty way. I think by his own admission, he said, that’s the one [00:34:50] bit I want to get rid of. So, so it really was down to room and I to really [00:34:55] peel back everything and try to understand what [00:35:00] is the point of what we’re doing in this bit, and what’s the point of this and write [00:35:05] it all for ourselves.

Payman Langroudi: So was there any issues with like the the team [00:35:10] sort of in terms of the the old boss is still there and he didn’t do it [00:35:15] like that and yeah, sort of.

Alif Moosajee: Maybe a little, little bit. I mean he obviously had his team [00:35:20] who he liked. And when I came in. So I again I’m this like humble [00:35:25] young I don’t like uh what do they call it. Um. You [00:35:30] know, when you don’t believe that you belong in a place, [00:35:35] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, um.

Alif Moosajee: I’ll, it’ll come to me, but. [00:35:40] Yeah, but. Yeah, I didn’t think I was worthy of being the principal of this place, [00:35:45] so I’m all like, right, I better learn, I better grow into this role and all the rest of it. And then we [00:35:50] start looking at, these girls are lazy. These girls are not cleaning. These girls are more [00:35:55] interested in having their coffee whenever they want and telling me how busy they are. And I don’t [00:36:00] mean to. I mean, maybe I’m being cruel, but they believed they were busy, but [00:36:05] they were just busy doing the wrong things. So it became apparent that we had to [00:36:10] make some changes. So I still remember giving a meeting at the start and believing it. [00:36:15] You know, we’re here now. We’re taking over. I don’t want to make any changes. I’m just happy with the way [00:36:20] things are. We’re going to carry on. And then I thought, oh my God, what have I said? You know, what have I done? This [00:36:25] is terrible. Um, so I remember having another meeting telling them, no, [00:36:30] we want to be the best practice. At that point, I was still small. We’re going to be the best practice [00:36:35] in Leicester. All right. Okay. But let’s go for that, at least as [00:36:40] a start. Um, and, uh, yeah, I remember thinking we’ve got to make some [00:36:45] changes. So we explained to our team what was acceptable and what [00:36:50] wasn’t. Um, and some of them, I don’t think they liked the sound of it. [00:36:55] So over time, when reality set in that that it is going to be like that, then [00:37:00] some of them decided to leave, and I remember there being a dentist. [00:37:05] She was quite a senior dentist, and she was making things difficult [00:37:10] because every time we had a new initiative or a new idea, she would always [00:37:15] challenge it. And it was, uh, got to a point where it was unacceptable. Now it was [00:37:20] a bit of a dragon and like, everybody was a bit scared and tiptoed around her and just gave her the nurse she [00:37:25] wanted let her work where she wanted, you know, those kind of things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: So I had a chat with [00:37:30] her, and I said to her, look, I don’t think it’s going to work. Um, so I asked her to leave, and [00:37:35] I think when that happened, everybody really, you [00:37:40] know, they they set up and they took notice, um, and I didn’t do it for that.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:37:45] it’s interesting that sometimes that one person can really ruin the [00:37:50] sort of clarity of of the room. Right. But if as [00:37:55] soon as you say something, someone immediately comes in and jumps in and says, yes, but whatever. Yes, [00:38:00] that’s one thing. But also, as you’re kind of alluding to, the act of asking [00:38:05] someone like that to leave sometimes puts everyone else on on sort [00:38:10] of report in a way. Right. You know, the decisiveness, I mean, [00:38:15] in the end, what is a leader? Yeah. In the end, the leader has to has to sort of set [00:38:20] the tone, um, for, for for what? The direction that [00:38:25] you’re going to go. Right. And I think.

Alif Moosajee: You’re absolutely right, because I remember custodian of the [00:38:30] vision that was that was something that I read somewhere. And I felt that that at one [00:38:35] point was the most important part of my whole job was to keep [00:38:40] what I had as my vision clear in my own mind and work out. Am I taking a step [00:38:45] towards it by doing this, or am I going away?

Payman Langroudi: And was your wife Romana [00:38:50] there from the from the get go from the beginning, or.

Alif Moosajee: The intention was that she wasn’t [00:38:55] meant to be.

Payman Langroudi: But you soon realised.

Alif Moosajee: I realised I needed her, and, uh. [00:39:00] And I still need her now. She’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing how many practices there’s a husband and wife [00:39:05] sort of situation going on.

Alif Moosajee: And I wonder if how how many of that is necessity as well? [00:39:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: Because.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Alif Moosajee: Need someone trusted to.

Payman Langroudi: But is there, is there a manager as well. [00:39:15]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we’ve got layers of management in the sense that we have, uh, [00:39:20] girls who are very senior and manage the nurses and they look after [00:39:25] the nurses and that’s it. Then we have, uh, the, our lead, who is [00:39:30] more to do with compliance and making sure like associate salaries and schedules [00:39:35] and audits and all of these things are done. And then we’ve got a front of house team [00:39:40] and again, they are managed themselves. They will then feed into Romana. Um, [00:39:45] and if there are problems classically patient complaints [00:39:50] or, you know, it’s not even a complaint as much as it’s just some, even a 1% [00:39:55] dissatisfaction in a Then I’ll be told. And then I’ll make that call. And it doesn’t [00:40:00] matter which dentist it is, I like to be the one to iron those things out. Um, and [00:40:05] I and I don’t mind doing it because I think if you nip it in the bud and get to it the [00:40:10] right time, you can often enhance the relationship you have with that patient. Of course, by having [00:40:15] acted on it in an appropriate way.

Payman Langroudi: They become the best patients.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. They become evangelists.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:40:20] let’s talk about, for instance, that patient that you should have given the money back to. Yes. Who ended [00:40:25] up with the GDC thing? When I was a dentist, I used to give money back all the time. Yeah, yeah, like [00:40:30] you say, a 1% problem. I’d give money back, um, even if it wasn’t my fault. [00:40:35] Although I do agree with you. Some things are grating, and and blackmail is particularly [00:40:40] one of the ones that grates the most.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think the way that he wrote that letter, it probably did rub [00:40:45] me up the wrong way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And I think these days it’s more I’ll give you a bad review or something. Quite is [00:40:50] the is the way people go with that. Yeah. I don’t like that either. I don’t like that either.

Alif Moosajee: They know how to [00:40:55] hurt us. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I don’t like. Hey, do me this deal or I’ll go to a competitor. [00:41:00] I don’t even like that one. Yeah. Yeah. Which in business is a bit, like, weird. Yeah. [00:41:05]

Alif Moosajee: No, but I agree with you, I don’t. I like to be master of my own [00:41:10] destiny, and I don’t. I don’t want to be the person who, like, felt like they had to beg [00:41:15] for this or bend backwards for something. Yeah, I’m with you on that.

Payman Langroudi: So? [00:41:20] So then did it look the way it looked when I went there? Was that you guys to sort of change the [00:41:25] way it looked?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, if it was nice, it was probably us. Yeah, but no. [00:41:30] And joking aside, when we bought it, it looked like an NHS practice. Oh, okay. Um, even. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: Though it was private.

Alif Moosajee: Even though it was private and there was, uh, one surgery. This [00:41:40] is the principal. The outgoing principal. His surgery was done to his taste. [00:41:45] Nice. Different to mine, but it’s a nice surgery. Um, so now [00:41:50] it’s funny. When you go, there’s six rooms which all look very similar. Black and white and everything. [00:41:55] And then there’s one room which is just different. I’ve just not had the heart to refurb because it’s perfectly functional. [00:42:00] Um, it just looks.

Payman Langroudi: So did you do it up in stages, or did you do it up right at the beginning, or how did [00:42:05] you do it?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, we were strategic, I suppose, in the way we did it. It had to be done in stages, [00:42:10] budgetary, to be honest, but also just disruption. Um, and I know a lot of people [00:42:15] go in and they do their surgery first, but I thought about it, uh, I [00:42:20] wanted to do the waiting room first because I thought, that’s the biggest bang for your buck. That’s when patients will [00:42:25] all enjoy it and see it and actually be there long enough to notice [00:42:30] what’s happened. Um, and then we had at that point there were four, five [00:42:35] surgeries, so four dental surgeries and one hygiene surgery. So I did the hygiene surgery [00:42:40] first because I thought then all patients would get the benefit of that rather than a [00:42:45] quarter of the patients if I just did one Dental. And then after that we started doing the Dental. [00:42:50] And then we also did a study club, a study area on the top floor, which is where you came to [00:42:55] to see beautiful also. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: For how many years were you reinvesting? [00:43:00] Do you feel like you’re still.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. I mean, we still are, but I’d say [00:43:05] to to a much lesser degree of percentage or whatever. But yeah, I would say it’s probably a good five, [00:43:10] five, six years we lived a very sort of meagre life. And [00:43:15] it was okay because as a family, we were so invested in the vision that, [00:43:20] you know, you just get on board and it becomes almost like a hobby, [00:43:25] I suppose, to to improve the place and look at what’s the next thing that we can do. And [00:43:30] once you’ve got a, um, you know, good people around you as well and a good team of people who you can say, [00:43:35] right, I want that. That’s what I would like it to be. And then the guy just gets on with it and he [00:43:40] employs the team and gets all the people in to do. And yeah, I mean that that [00:43:45] that helps. That helps an awful lot. And it left Romana and I with the headspace then to [00:43:50] to ensure that the team were on board, that the culture was right, that our [00:43:55] relationship with patients was framed correctly. So just control [00:44:00] the narrative in as many ways as possible. Make sure dentists are coming on board [00:44:05] that are aligned with what we want to achieve. Yeah, all of those things.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:44:10] the positioning? I mean, in Leicester, is it near the top of the sort of price [00:44:15] bracket or.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I wouldn’t say that we’re hugely more expensive [00:44:20] than the other private practices. I’d say we’re yeah, there’s a reasonable amount of parity there. [00:44:25] But we do aim to. Yeah I suppose, knock the socks off the patients that come [00:44:30] and ours is a place where. Well, this is what I will always say to the staff. I say that [00:44:35] when people come, they will they can’t, they can’t judge how crisp my margins are. [00:44:40] They can’t judge where my implants place. Very true. Right. But what they can judge is how they [00:44:45] feel when they are there, and they will judge everything that they can. [00:44:50] And I might have even been you that said this, that, that they like. They’ll judge the toilets. [00:44:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, they’ll judge the dust in the corner.

Payman Langroudi: And certainly one of my things. Yeah. [00:45:00] You know, when I, when I go to practices I have a quick, you know, on the train or whatever. You have [00:45:05] a quick look on the website. Have a quick look on the social. Yeah. Um, [00:45:10] I read through the dentist profiles. I read through much of it, actually, obviously the whitening [00:45:15] bit I’m interested in. Um, but but there where I really go is, you know, the Google reviews. [00:45:20] Yes. And you can look at reviews in a sort of a qualitative way [00:45:25] or a quantitative way. Right. How many and all that. But what I quite enjoy is, [00:45:30] you know, the at the top of the Google reviews, there’s the words that are mentioned the most. [00:45:35] Yes. And there’s one word I look for and it’s not often mentioned, [00:45:40] but I always make a bet with myself. If I see that word mentioned a lot, then when [00:45:45] I get there, I kind of know what it’s going to. It’s going to be a good practice. Yes. And the word is feel. Feel just [00:45:50] what you said. Yeah. And you know, it feel tends to come up a lot.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the way they make me feel. They make you [00:45:55] feel really calm. This sort of thing. Yeah. Um, it’s such an important point, and it’s [00:46:00] one you can’t even measure. Yeah. It’s difficult. I mean, other than this Google review. Yeah. [00:46:05] Yeah. I think some of the most important things in business, let [00:46:10] alone a service business like dentistry, are immeasurable. Yes. You know, and [00:46:15] on the other hand, you’ll get accountants telling you to measure everything. Kpis. Yeah. You [00:46:20] know, we just went with the meeting and, you know, add the about how many, how much the [00:46:25] CPM cost per thousand eyeballs that see your ad. Right. And [00:46:30] then and then obviously how many of those comments are training. How many of those become users? [00:46:35] How many of those become big users? How many of those become regional centres? It was all it [00:46:40] was all numbers, right. And I often think like the relationship of [00:46:45] the practice with our sales team, or the way someone feels when they open [00:46:50] one of our boxes. It’s way more important than all of this stuff. Yeah, [00:46:55] but it’s so, so difficult to measure that.

Alif Moosajee: Yes, and I think you’re right. We are obsessed. [00:47:00] Well, we can only measure what we can measure. And you’re right. It skews the [00:47:05] importance of the things that I agree with you. I’m probably not really that important. [00:47:10] It’s like, I think some people get fixated on money, but it’s because it’s easy to [00:47:15] measure how rich you are because it’s a number. It’s very difficult to measure how happy [00:47:20] you are.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: That’s right. Or how healthy you are. These things are harder to quantify.

Payman Langroudi: Apparently, [00:47:25] Porsche has a thing. Yeah, that is impossible to measure, but it’s the reason why everyone buys a Porsche. [00:47:30] Really? It’s to do with the accurate. As you turn the steering wheel, the accuracy that it it’s got, [00:47:35] it’s got it’s got a word for it. It’s like, I don’t know, tracking steering tracking or something. And it’s the reason [00:47:40] why people buy Porsches but it’s impossible to measure it. Is that right? You know, you can measure a 0 to [00:47:45] 60. Yeah, yeah. And 0 to 60 on a Ferrari. Might be faster than on a Porsche. Yeah, but it’s [00:47:50] the way this Porsche goes round the corner. Responsive.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:47:55] think it’s such an interesting thing to actually pinpoint some of those things in a practice and [00:48:00] build in some of those things. And, you know, it’s nice and easy [00:48:05] in a, in a small situation where you’re on site. Yes. [00:48:10] To say to everyone, look, we just want to make everyone feel great, make people feel [00:48:15] like they’re they’re coming to your home or something. That’s a nice way of saying it to staff. Yeah. And [00:48:20] make it feel memorable. Um, but then sometimes you go to a massive, [00:48:25] I don’t know, I don’t shop at Louis Vuitton, but if I did, I’m sure [00:48:30] if I walked into Louis Vuitton in, um, Mumbai or in wherever, [00:48:35] Chicago, both of those shops will make you feel $1 million. [00:48:40] Yeah. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is that building in some things, and we’ve got [00:48:45] such an amazing sort of scope for it, right? You know, every single human who’s going to walk into this practice, [00:48:50] you know, you know, they’ve got appointments. Yeah. You could take it to the nth [00:48:55] degree and really look these people up and find out who they are and then know what their faces look like. [00:49:00] And on the way in, open the door. We’ve been expecting you. Here’s your favourite. Whatever. You could really [00:49:05] take it as far as you want. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is there’s a lot of scope in [00:49:10] dentistry. I agree for these, whatever the word is, I’m sure Chris Barrett has a word for this [00:49:15] non-essential essentials or something.

Alif Moosajee: But there is there’s a there’s a super personalisation [00:49:20] that we can strive for isn’t it. And I think personalised [00:49:25] care is is probably the minimum standard these days. What I mean by that, I [00:49:30] think I did a short video on this once because I do these YouTube smiling dentist videos. Um, [00:49:35] and I remember going to see a GP about a problem that I had. I think it was [00:49:40] like a, I felt like there was a blocked sinus or something like this. And what they said was take the [00:49:45] decongestant for six weeks and then if it hasn’t cleared, come back again. And I was like, [00:49:50] okay, I’ll level with you, doc. I’m a dentist. And what we taught and what I try [00:49:55] and do is I try and understand what the problem is first, and then I treat it. I [00:50:00] don’t just treat with decongestant exactly and hope it goes away, [00:50:05] because I feel like I’ve probably done a disservice. Is there a way that we can’t go for an endoscopy? Because [00:50:10] if there is a block, it’s an actual blockage there. This decongestant ain’t going to do much, mate. And, [00:50:15] um, I realised when I looked into it more that when you are looking [00:50:20] at the statistics of how many people will get better as [00:50:25] a result of, uh, nasal blockage, just using a decongestant, [00:50:30] it’s enough to justify that approach. When you look at the statistics [00:50:35] of it all. But that is population Elation medicine, isn’t [00:50:40] it? And that’s very different to looking somebody in the whites of the eyes and saying for [00:50:45] you, I know it’s wrong, but the study said I should, so I’m going to [00:50:50] do this. I think somewhere we’ve missed the point of what we’re doing. I [00:50:55] think we should really listen to that other human being.

Payman Langroudi: The GP is not even comparable [00:51:00] to private dentistry, I think you know. True. I mean, I don’t know about your GP, man. Mine [00:51:05] keeps me waiting 40 minutes.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Routinely. Yeah. Routinely.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It’s a it’s a [00:51:10] power trip.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Alif Moosajee: I think they’re drowning, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think they’re doing it on purpose, [00:51:15] but but but the massive difference, insomuch as the receptionist doesn’t look up, by [00:51:20] the way, some, some dental practices that can happen to the doctor doesn’t even look up. He’s [00:51:25] constantly typing. Yeah, yeah. And there’s a little sign on the wall saying one problem at [00:51:30] a time or something like as if as if, you know, like, like my problem with my, uh, [00:51:35] diabetes might not be affecting my or my that’s falling off.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:51:40]

Payman Langroudi: Ridiculous idea. Yeah. Um, but but your point is absolutely right. Your point is absolutely [00:51:45] right. Um, what I was kind of going with is what tactics [00:51:50] do you use outside of saying to people take care of people? I mean, are there [00:51:55] tactics that you use? Are there sort of, um, surprise and delight type things? I mean, you’re [00:52:00] a Phillips Cole, right? Yeah. Hurts. Really hurts me.

Alif Moosajee: But I’m just [00:52:05] delighted I was still interesting enough for you to invite me.

[TRANSITION]: We’re friends.

Payman Langroudi: We’re friends. Um, [00:52:10] I’ve had the competitive composite courses on, you know, [00:52:15] um, but you’re a Phillips. When I was a dentist, um, my boss didn’t like this, [00:52:20] so I ended up having to do it myself. I used to surprise and delight. Come out with a Sonicare. Yeah. [00:52:25]

Alif Moosajee: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Surprise and delight. And it was. It was. I had them in my in my. I talked to the rep, [00:52:30] and I said, I’m going to do this. I’m not going to sell them. I’m giving them out for free. Yeah. [00:52:35] So do me a deal. I’d buy 20 at a time. Nice and surprise and delight a patient [00:52:40] with it at the right moment to start with. It was like, um, [00:52:45] you know, big case. I used to back then to fit the veneers. Yeah. People [00:52:50] are happy. Here’s a free electric toothbrush. But sometimes [00:52:55] I’d give it to someone just where we had a just a great conversation. Almost like a, like a talk [00:53:00] trigger thing where you want to you want to impact one person a lot. [00:53:05] They hadn’t spent the cost of the toothbrush. Yeah, they’d come for an examination, [00:53:10] but we’d had a great conversation, and I and the nurse would sort of make [00:53:15] a little thing of it. Oh, you gave it to you or something? Yeah, but that patient [00:53:20] would be then. Just like. Like with you forever. Yeah. So that was a tactic I used [00:53:25] to use as a as a dentist. As an associate. Yeah. But do you have tactics? Things you do.

Alif Moosajee: I [00:53:30] can’t say that we have like, it’s great that you’ve thought of it because I think that’s probably going [00:53:35] to be something I’m gonna try and think.

Payman Langroudi: Neil Gerrard has a thing. If anyone is ever kept waiting. [00:53:40] I mean, maybe, maybe you have a rule in your practice. No one is kept waiting.

[TRANSITION]: No, but we do [00:53:45] that.

Alif Moosajee: If someone is kept waiting or if we if it’s obvious that we’ve dropped the ball somewhere, then we’ll try and heal the [00:53:50] hurt.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, Neil Gerrard has a thing. He has a cupboard with stuff in it. Yeah, yeah. And [00:53:55] it’s like chocolates, champagnes, vouchers. And for him, if anyone’s [00:54:00] ever kept waiting they, they hand out one of those things but.

[TRANSITION]: And we, we.

Alif Moosajee: Have things [00:54:05] for that. And then I’ve got that book that I wrote which is something that sits in the surgery. So [00:54:10] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A book or.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Alif Moosajee: It. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it’s a, the structure of it is that the [00:54:15] chapter headings are the questions that I used to get asked a lot by patients. And then [00:54:20] the body of the chapter is an answer that I hope is palatable to them. [00:54:25] So there’s no jargon. I really worked hard to try and make it as clear the [00:54:30] explanations, um, and I’ll often give that book to patients. And it’s funny you mentioned this. [00:54:35] It’s not always the big cases, but it’s just someone who you’ve had a nice chat with, someone who actually [00:54:40] seems interested. Um, well, look, I’ve got this book and it’s about dentistry. Have [00:54:45] a read of it. And, you know, you seem to. And it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of.

Alif Moosajee: Social.

Payman Langroudi: Proof as well, right? It’s proof [00:54:50] that you are an expert.

Alif Moosajee: I suppose you’ve written a book. It’s like he’s an author. Wow. This [00:54:55] is. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I get asked this question quite a lot by people starting practices. You know, [00:55:00] they say, what should I do? Right. And I think especially with squats. [00:55:05] Right. You want to be known for something. Yeah. I mean, once [00:55:10] you’ve been around a while, it’s a bit different. Right. But it’s a squat. You want to be known for a [00:55:15] thing. And I think of it a lot. You know, we we used to at every single [00:55:20] touchpoint. We used to say be one guaranteed. Yeah, yeah. Because that was for me [00:55:25] the thing that would spread. Yeah, yeah. And so you need a spreadable story. Yeah, [00:55:30] yeah. And so what should be the spreadable story about a new practice that touches [00:55:35] down somewhere? What should it be? It’s difficult because people say, oh, um, when I asked them, [00:55:40] they said, what is it? What’s what is your I guess it’s a USP.

Alif Moosajee: Usp.

Payman Langroudi: What is your us. And they go, well, you [00:55:45] know, we’re really like personalised care or something. Yeah. But that [00:55:50] story that story is not spreading between patients. Yeah. They’re lovely. Okay. Yeah. [00:55:55] All well and good. But I think the lowest hanging fruit. Yeah. Painless. Yeah. [00:56:00] It’s because half the population is scared. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you [00:56:05] can you can say to all your associates, listen, we only give painless injections here. Yeah. And it’s [00:56:10] a slower injection. There’s lots of topical and all that. Yeah. I think that’s the lowest hanging fruit. Yeah. If [00:56:15] you. If you open. And that. At every touchpoint. Painless. I’d call it painless dentistry. [00:56:20] If the easiest. Yeah. Yeah. The easiest move would be to do that. Right. But [00:56:25] you need something. You need. You need a story to spread.

Alif Moosajee: I think I love that. I remember being on [00:56:30] a on a course where they spoke about this. They said the problem with the word painless is it’s [00:56:35] got the word pain in it. True. So you have to the patient has to think of pain first. [00:56:40] So. So I quite like the word comfortable. True. Yeah. Comfy. Comfy is [00:56:45] a nice word. Yeah. And I think I did audit once at the number of times I used the word pop in. [00:56:50] I’m just gonna. I’m just gonna pop you back now.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: Just pop a little bit of local in.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [00:56:55] As soon as I became aware of that. But these, um, the reason I mentioned comfy and pop is they’re [00:57:00] very soft words as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Gentle Dental. Right.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My my buddies, [00:57:05] um, they’ve they’ve got a chain.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Gentle.

Alif Moosajee: Dental. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:57:10] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful practice. I don’t know if you’ve seen them. Croydon.

Alif Moosajee: Okay. I’ve definitely. I’ve heard, I’ve heard of [00:57:15] them, but I’ve not seen the.

Payman Langroudi: Planning practices, man. Now, tell me this. You seem [00:57:20] to have done such a great job with this one. Why didn’t you go to two [00:57:25] and three and 27?

Alif Moosajee: I so Romano and I just had this [00:57:30] thing. And the way we’ve kind of encapsulated there’s one Harrods and there’s one Oakdale. [00:57:35] And I think we were probably a bit worried that if we went in the [00:57:40] business enough.

Payman Langroudi: Yourself.

Alif Moosajee: Ourselves, then it would lose its touch. Um, [00:57:45] and I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Did you consider it?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, [00:57:50] yeah, we thought about getting another site, and then I think at the time we thought rather than doing that, why [00:57:55] don’t we expand what we have? And that’s when we turned we I think we’d maxed out the five chairs. [00:58:00] So I mentioned that we were two and a half to begin with. Um, we filled up the five so [00:58:05] that they’re actually properly running. And then we put two more in. And then I spoke [00:58:10] to somebody else and they said, look, you’ve done the right thing there, because if you’ve got another site, you’d have had the whole [00:58:15] overhead of another place as 100%.

Payman Langroudi: But amazing advice. Yeah, that sweat [00:58:20] the one, the one fully before going to two. Yeah, yeah. And it’s [00:58:25] almost a vanity metric isn’t it, to say 2 or 3?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but if you if [00:58:30] you have a practice running 8 to 8, seven days a week. Yes. And you’re [00:58:35] from, from a building perspective, completely maxed out. [00:58:40] Yeah. Then, okay, I think think about a second practice. But if you don’t have that. [00:58:45] Yeah. Get to that. Yeah. Yeah I can think of one in Sheffield that’s massively [00:58:50] successful start up as in a squat. And they were talking about [00:58:55] the second practice. I was looking around thinking it was just so much space for growth here. You know like there’s [00:59:00] this huge area back there. I was like how about there? Why can’t you do something with that? And they were [00:59:05] like, yeah, but we thought second just there is a there is a sort of vanity I agree, I [00:59:10] agree. So you looked at it, you thought about it, you thought, well grow this first and then you got to a point of [00:59:15] contentment.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think what also happened is that we realised [00:59:20] that, okay, the business should not be the [00:59:25] end point. In fact, if we’re thinking about our life holistically.

Payman Langroudi: To live, live to work. [00:59:30]

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. Yeah. So what the business really needs to do now is just service us. Um, [00:59:35] and and not. I don’t just mean financial. It’s still a reason to wake up in the morning. [00:59:40] It’s a reason to be challenged, not a reason to be challenged. But it’s a it’s a vehicle [00:59:45] for challenge. Um, it’s a vehicle for me to go and go in and do some implants and practice [00:59:50] my hobby. Um, so it serves a lot of purposes, and I think [00:59:55] at the right level as well, that still allows me freedom to do to [01:00:00] do other things. So then I thought, yeah, then if I want a second one then, then what what [01:00:05] what is it that I can’t buy now? And again, it’s not all about money, but I [01:00:10] really think money is very, very important when you don’t have it. Yeah, it’s probably the most important thing, [01:00:15] but. But when you have enough to be able to go on holiday where you want, where what [01:00:20] you want, drive what you want, then you start thinking, What am I going to [01:00:25] give in order to have more money that I don’t need to spend?

Payman Langroudi: But [01:00:30] I had a guy here yesterday, um, and I was discussing this very [01:00:35] thing. Yeah. And my own issues with the difference between happiness and [01:00:40] pleasure. Yes. And joy and contentment. [01:00:45] Yes. I see contentment in. It’s almost a separate box to those other three, even [01:00:50] though those three are different. Right. Pleasure and joy are different things. Yeah. And I was [01:00:55] I was discussing the tension between contentment and [01:01:00] progress.

Alif Moosajee: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And we certainly have it in our culture. It’s almost like if someone [01:01:05] says they’re content then others, some others think it’s [01:01:10] not. Not ambitious.

Alif Moosajee: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And is it possible to be content [01:01:15] and ambitious at the same time. Is it possible? I think so. Yeah. Well, this cat [01:01:20] who was sitting in front of me, 24 practices, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Um, he was saying that like [01:01:25] he was saying, look, I always want the next thing. Yeah, and that’s a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I was [01:01:30] trying to say, look, it’s. Everything is a good thing and a bad thing. Yeah. You know, there [01:01:35] isn’t something that’s only good. Every good thing has a bad, bad edge to [01:01:40] it. And the other way around sometimes as well. Yeah. But I’m interested in. How did you get to this? Were you [01:01:45] always that cat? Were you always the kind of guy who found it very easy to be content? Or did [01:01:50] you have to buy a Porsche before you could get to that point, or what was it?

Alif Moosajee: It’s a [01:01:55] great. That’s a brilliant question, because yes, I think I did. I had some notion I didn’t I don’t think I even [01:02:00] wrote them down, but I had some notional things in my.

Payman Langroudi: These receptors in your brain that [01:02:05] needed filling.

Alif Moosajee: They needed.

Payman Langroudi: Filling.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. And, and yeah. And it’s so funny you mention that. [01:02:10] But when I had a Porsche a Porsche. Yeah I thought great. You know, that’s one of the things [01:02:15] ticked off that is.

Payman Langroudi: Which one did you get.

Alif Moosajee: So I got the, the the Taycan. That was [01:02:20] about just over four years ago. And then I’ve got a different one now. I’ve got this. So, you [01:02:25] know the the electric Macan. Oh it’s nice. It’s like a 4×4. Lovely, lovely. [01:02:30] I’m really quite. I quite like that one, actually. Um, and then, uh, so there [01:02:35] were these things, and I actually remember having, like, a mini crisis where we were [01:02:40] where the last piece in the puzzle we were living in, like, a it was a rented house. It’s [01:02:45] a house we bought to put on rent while we were waiting for our home to be renovated. [01:02:50] And the renovation took obviously, you know, standard story took longer than we thought, [01:02:55] more expensive than we thought. Same, same. Um, but so. So two years [01:03:00] later, we finally move into this house and I’m thinking, oh my God. And I’m auditing [01:03:05] my life. Right. So I’m now I always wanted to teach, so I’m [01:03:10] doing lectures. I, um, I wanted to, to, to move away from general [01:03:15] dentistry, just doing implants part week working own a practice. Live [01:03:20] in a nice house. Drive a nice car. Wear nice clothes. You know all of those things, right? [01:03:25] Tick tick tick tick. I’ve done them all. That. That [01:03:30] means I’m going to die now. And I don’t know how I got this, but it’s like this is the happy ending. And [01:03:35] the next thing that’s going to happen, the credits are going to roll. So I got I got really worried. I freaked [01:03:40] out a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention none of those things actually give you the thing that you’re you’re after, right? [01:03:45] You know, that sort of buyer’s remorse as soon as you [01:03:50] say you like the car, right? But but are you a happier cat in this car than you were in the non [01:03:55] Porsche?

Alif Moosajee: No, probably not, but I arrived there in style.

Payman Langroudi: But go on, go on. So [01:04:00] then, was it really contentment came then?

Alif Moosajee: No, I think then what happened was [01:04:05] I, um. Right. So actually that was the time when I decided to go on this Tony [01:04:10] Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: Business one.

Payman Langroudi: The one in America.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I think the reason [01:04:15] was that I, I realised I reflected back in my early life and thought I had a bit [01:04:20] of a crisis just when I qualified. You know, all that stuff going on about how I didn’t feel like [01:04:25] I was. It was imposter syndrome. That was the one.

Payman Langroudi: That we’re looking for.

Alif Moosajee: That was before. And that’s [01:04:30] definitely what I had when I started and qualified. And I thought, great, I can diagnose a patient, understand the problem. [01:04:35] But you asked me to drill the cavity. I’m not sure I’ll put it in the right place. You know, that kind of stuff. So [01:04:40] going on Tony Robbins then really helped. I remember why actually, because [01:04:45] I had I had what we call now a fixed mindset. I didn’t know that was [01:04:50] a thing.

Payman Langroudi: As opposed to a growth.

Alif Moosajee: As opposed to a growth mindset. I only learned the labels later in life. [01:04:55] Yeah. Um, and so that’s why I remember thinking at that time, um, right. [01:05:00] So God has blessed me with an amazing brain, but he’s cursed me with shit hands. So that’s [01:05:05] just my life, right? That’s the the pay off, if you like. Um, I didn’t [01:05:10] realise that if you just actually try. And if you. If you take that stupid [01:05:15] inner a monologue out of your mind and say, I’m not always going to be. I just need [01:05:20] to practice. I just need to get good at this. So when I learned that that was actually an option, and [01:05:25] it’s one of the things I mentioned about Tony Robbins, you realise you have choices. You realise you have the ability [01:05:30] to do things. Um, yeah. That’s when I started getting good. And I’m right now, you know, [01:05:35] I can do what I want. To be honest. Um, but yeah. So I remember [01:05:40] that definitely being a thing, that Tony Robbins was a turning point at that point in my life. [01:05:45] So I wondered if I needed to reach out to Tony now to to to find out what my next [01:05:50] stage was. And yeah, I think I went down the wrong [01:05:55] path, actually, because the business mastery, I came back and I thought, right, I’m [01:06:00] going to shake up Oakdale and I’m going to put all these things in place and do all these things. And [01:06:05] I realised that actually what I was doing was piece by piece, um, [01:06:10] undoing a lot of the good work that myself, but probably more [01:06:15] so.

Alif Moosajee: Ramana had done. Or as that’s a great word organically. Yeah. [01:06:20] And and I realised I, we were losing touch and actually we are. Turnover [01:06:25] dropped that. Yeah. Now I don’t know if it was all my endeavours. I think it was also a tough year [01:06:30] financially. It was a last year. Um, but it became apparent to me that [01:06:35] it wasn’t the right move. So I started undoing some of the things that [01:06:40] I’d put in, and we went back to being Oakdale again, which was great. Um, but what I [01:06:45] did realise was that, um, I think my view of the world had become very [01:06:50] myopic, and so I thought I had clocked everything game over. [01:06:55] But actually it was just one part of what was really a bigger piece. [01:07:00] Um, there’s still health to look at optimising that. [01:07:05] There’s still, uh, emotional well-being, you know, these kind of things to look at. So there’s a [01:07:10] bigger world and and I’m not anywhere near as far, uh, towards [01:07:15] where I would like to be in these different facets. And in fact, it’s one of the reasons [01:07:20] I’ve reasons I’ve decided because I went I kind of moved away from teaching for a bit because I wanted to spend [01:07:25] a bit more time with the family and also spend a bit more time in the practice and in the business. [01:07:30] Um, and now that I’m kind of freeing myself from that burden, um, I’m [01:07:35] starting to do more teaching again, and I realise I missed it. You know, I really. [01:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: Really love teaching is fun.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, it’s one of it’s a wonderful thing to do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more fun [01:07:45] than than patients, I think. And it’s it’s, uh. Well, well, it’s [01:07:50] only when you have lots of patients to worry about that teaching is more fun than patients, right? I kind of miss patients [01:07:55] sometimes. You know, I miss the conversations with patients. Yeah. Varied [01:08:00] conversations. Right? Yes. That’s that’s that’s the nice thing about it. And seeing them every six months. [01:08:05] Yeah. Um, but I don’t know, even when you think about that, I think about the [01:08:10] particular patients I remember the most, you know, maybe 30 in [01:08:15] total. Yeah. And, you know, maybe you’re seeing 300 or 500 for 30, [01:08:20] you know, ones that stick in your head. Yeah. Um, but that’s interesting [01:08:25] what you’re saying there. Um, let’s get to the darker part of [01:08:30] the pod.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Outside of that one episode with the GDC, [01:08:35] what stands out to you as the darkest sort of moment? [01:08:40]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, that’s a good question. So I [01:08:45] think that, yeah, there have been there have been a few. So there’ve been some really [01:08:50] dark business days because of the.

Payman Langroudi: Running out of money. Like [01:08:55] that.

Alif Moosajee: Money. Thankfully, there was always enough in the account to [01:09:00] to keep us going. But yeah, I mean, it was tight at times, especially when, um, [01:09:05] when we started the practice and, you know, you’re used to a certain lifestyle as an associate [01:09:10] and a certain cash flow is an associate. Um, I still remember, and I talk to [01:09:15] new principals about this. If I’m trying to advise them, I say, look, whatever your financial barometer is, get [01:09:20] ready for a massive reset, because the first time you sign that check for paying the [01:09:25] wages, yeah, yeah, you will probably spend more in one transaction than you ever [01:09:30] did before. Absolutely. I still remember when I was an associate, we [01:09:35] went and we bought a TV. It was one of these Bang and Olufsen TVs, and I think we [01:09:40] financed it for like it’s an eight grand or ten grand TV or whatever. Um, and [01:09:45] that was I mean, that was the biggest purchase I remember, most certainly most extravagant [01:09:50] purchase I remember making my heart was like pounding when I was like, [01:09:55] I’m am I ready to sign up for this thing? And, I mean, that was a long time [01:10:00] before I was a principal. And then, yeah, just like ten grand for this, 20 grand for that. It just [01:10:05] it just goes out. So I think more than anything else that has changed my relationship with [01:10:10] money. Um, but yeah, thankfully, no. Money has never been the darkest thing. I [01:10:15] think it’s when we’ve had perhaps. And this this may resonate with other principles. [01:10:20] Sometimes what will happen is that you will find that you have a crop of staff, [01:10:25] and the staff are doing fine. Everything’s good. And then [01:10:30] there is some dissatisfaction amongst them. And then what will happen is [01:10:35] one, perhaps only one will become annoyed about something, but they become [01:10:40] what I like to call a, well, poisoner. Can I quote a guy? Really brilliant guy. Colin [01:10:45] Campbell, he’s a dentist in Nottingham.

Payman Langroudi: Nottingham?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah. Amazing guy. And he really, really [01:10:50] helped me. I remember going on an oral surgery course when we were learning to take our wisdom teeth.

Payman Langroudi: His super duper place. [01:10:55]

Alif Moosajee: No, I think this was before he had that. Yeah. But I remember going in and ragging [01:11:00] these teeth out so that I could go and sit with him and talk to him about [01:11:05] business, because the guy is clever when it comes to that. He understands these things and he [01:11:10] gave me a masterclass, 1 to 1 masterclass on those things when I really needed. [01:11:15] It was just before I bought that practice. So he’s the guy who gave me that term, the well poisoner. [01:11:20] Now, anyway, you get this one. Well, poisoner ruins the narrative for others. They [01:11:25] start to notice things that they never did before because there was never a problem for [01:11:30] them. But this one person. Have you noticed how they always do this? Or they always do that? And. [01:11:35] Oh yeah, I do notice it now. Oh, God. This is perhaps this place isn’t as good a place to work as [01:11:40] I thought it was. And before you know it, you have maybe three, four, five people hand [01:11:45] their notice in all together. That was tough. That was tough. [01:11:50] Because now we had to somehow work out how to make this work. [01:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: And did you question yourself as, okay, you can blame the person, but [01:12:00] did you blame yourself to some extent as well?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think I think it’s natural to do [01:12:05] that.

Payman Langroudi: You have.

Alif Moosajee: To. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, I think it’s not only natural, but it’s [01:12:10] the right move. Yeah. So that then your, your day or your month [01:12:15] or your year is depending on you rather than other people.

Alif Moosajee: I love that I think you’re absolutely [01:12:20] right. The more you abdicate responsibility, the more you abdicate [01:12:25] control and your own feeling of destiny. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. [01:12:30] Yeah. Um, but the thing is, what I’ve realised, though now, is I think [01:12:35] we, we try and be very, very selective at the interview process as well [01:12:40] because we are not an easy practice to work at. And I level [01:12:45] with people, I say, I want this to be the best place for a patient to come, but in order [01:12:50] to provide that level to the patient, we’ve got to work hard. You know, we’ve got to do [01:12:55] not only the clinical stuff. Well, we’ve do the, um, the other touchy feely stuff [01:13:00] really, really well as well as we said, the feelings.

Payman Langroudi: Do you hire the clinicians? Obviously.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. [01:13:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And do you think you’re good at telling, like who’s going to be good and who’s not? Like, [01:13:10] how long will it take you. You’re not sure.

Alif Moosajee: Mixed. Yeah. Um, I have had [01:13:15] I’ve had some people who’ve started and then after a week or two, it’s then that it becomes apparent. And [01:13:20] it’s because sometimes people are really good at putting their talking. Yeah. Good [01:13:25] at talking and putting, presenting the part of themselves that they want to present.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re good at firing.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [01:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: You fire quite quickly.

Alif Moosajee: Very quickly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, did you have to learn that? [01:13:35]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you very slow at firing before? And now you’ve learnt to be quicker?

Alif Moosajee: Yes, I [01:13:40] think so. I think what what we have to understand is that firing someone is not fun. [01:13:45] I don’t enjoy the conversation. I don’t enjoy the effect that it’s going to have on [01:13:50] that person’s life. They’ve probably given notice somewhere else. They’ve come to me in good faith and now I’m [01:13:55] telling them it’s not going to work. Yeah, so it’s upheaval for them as well. But I also realise [01:14:00] how hard I’ve worked on creating a reputation for the practice that [01:14:05] I own. And I’m not going to have somebody destroy it because they’re just [01:14:10] unsuitable. So yes, now I realise that of those two, the pain [01:14:15] of my practice burning is way too much for me to [01:14:20] pussy out of having a difficult chat with somebody.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when people talk about, [01:14:25] um, a business as a family, it’s unhelpful in [01:14:30] that sense.

Alif Moosajee: I.

Payman Langroudi: Agree. Yeah. The pro sports team. Much more helpful [01:14:35] way of looking. I love that much more helpful. Yes, a pro sports team. No one’s keeping anyone on a in Man [01:14:40] United because, you know, they’re worried about their feelings or something. Yeah, yeah. [01:14:45] Um, and and as much as I love the idea, when you ask our team [01:14:50] what’s it like to work at enlightened? Oh, it feels like a big family, much as I adore that that [01:14:55] that point. It’s not that. Yeah, and I’ve had to [01:15:00] learn that myself the hard way. You know, in as much as I thought, hey, we’re [01:15:05] a family, but but it’s not the best thing for the business anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And [01:15:10] your job as the leader is to keep the business going, right? Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And we keep the business going [01:15:15] by looking after patients. I’ve never, ever felt that there has to [01:15:20] be. I mean, this is a point sometimes, isn’t it? You talk to some dentists and they feel like there is a tug, [01:15:25] that they can either be good businessmen or they can be good clinicians. And I don’t [01:15:30] believe that at all. I think the one they go hand in hand. And I think if you are looking [01:15:35] after people really well, you’re adding value to their lives, then the universe will [01:15:40] just sort it out that you will be rewarded for that. So I [01:15:45] don’t really care as much about the money coming in as I do about looking for opportunities to add [01:15:50] value to people and look for ways of looking after them better. And I [01:15:55] think the reason I do that, and I’m quite I’m almost distant from the numbers. Um, [01:16:00] I think the team, they like that because how can a nurse [01:16:05] get on board with lining my pockets? If [01:16:10] you know, if I’m that. If I’m that principle.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not inspirational, is it?

Alif Moosajee: It can’t be, isn’t [01:16:15] it? If all I’m thinking about is how do I improve margins here? How do I improve profit there? [01:16:20] The rest of my team are going to be left behind. I have to live that world on my own. Whereas [01:16:25] if I care about patient care, that’s what these girls want as well. [01:16:30] Because let’s face it, nurses are not paid the most amount of money in the world. So often they’re not. That’s [01:16:35] not what juices them. Making a difference is what juices them. And if they [01:16:40] work in a place where that’s what the whole thing is set up to do, then then that alignment [01:16:45] comes often quite easily.

Payman Langroudi: A very good point. It’s a [01:16:50] very good I mean, I only recently realised that the best way to even inspire [01:16:55] myself, let alone my team is to think about the [01:17:00] joy we bring to people because of their whiter teeth. Right. Yeah. And [01:17:05] I didn’t used to think of it that way, actually. I sometimes question myself, you know. Why? Only servicing [01:17:10] the rich, you know, and feel guilty about that or something, you know, like, um. [01:17:15] But but certainly the best way to talk about anything like that is in the way [01:17:20] you’re talking. Yeah. You know, to to make a difference for sure.

Alif Moosajee: And I [01:17:25] know earlier we touched on the question about the best lecture I ever went to.

Payman Langroudi: What was. [01:17:30]

Alif Moosajee: It? But so it was it was a DSD lecture by Christian Christian coachman. [01:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Good lecturer.

Alif Moosajee: Great lecturer, great storyteller. And there were two bits of it that stood [01:17:40] out. And the one comes to this point really well. He goes on about [01:17:45] how we sell the best product in the whole world as dentists. [01:17:50] And that’s a smile. And if we think about what a smile means and what not, [01:17:55] having a smile also means if you’re not confident to smile at people, it can. It can really [01:18:00] change a person’s outlook. Outlook. Yeah, their interaction with others, [01:18:05] their ability to have a relationship to earn money, all of these things like they go [01:18:10] to an interview, they’re not going to get, you know, a great job. So the power we have to be able [01:18:15] to do good is is massive. And if I had the choice of my patients [01:18:20] spending money on a holiday or spending money on Coca-Cola or crap food or something, [01:18:25] or spending it on something that will improve them in a way that I know [01:18:30] they will say, thank you, doctor, you know, bless you, thank you. Afterwards. [01:18:35] You know, it’s a brilliant thing to be part of.

Payman Langroudi: I do want to talk [01:18:40] some clinical stuff rather than only management stuff. Right. Because I do, and [01:18:45] I want to kind of wrap it up in your kind of clinical era. [01:18:50] Yeah, I kind of let’s talk implants here because you can’t do implants without some stuff going wrong? [01:18:55] Absolutely. So, implant wise, what was the thing that happened? Adverse thing [01:19:00] that happened that taught you about implantology? I mean, what the sort of the. [01:19:05] Aha.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. Mine was, was quite a bad one, actually. Um, [01:19:10] I unfortunately drilled right into the mental nerve for a patient, [01:19:15] which was not obviously, nobody wants that. It was the third implant [01:19:20] I ever did. Now, at this stage, I was. I had a mentor. So it’s the guy I bought the practice from. [01:19:25] But, you know, he again, he’s a fantastic surgeon. But [01:19:30] when it came to mentorship, he loves to teach and to explain. But I think he found it [01:19:35] frustrating being over the shoulder. He’s the kind of guy who would just give me that. I’ll just [01:19:40] do it and he’d do it in less than half the time. So I remember the first one being quite stressful. Um, [01:19:45] the second one was a bit better, and this was the third one now. And now he’s thinking, [01:19:50] look, if you’ve got this man, I’m going to just walk off and I’m going to wander off somewhere else. I didn’t have [01:19:55] it, so I remember using it was Straumann implants. Their system is that they’ve [01:20:00] got long drill with the laser lines on it, and I just lost. I lost [01:20:05] my bearings when I was drilling. So I ended up drilling a lot deeper than [01:20:10] I should. I caused this injury.

Payman Langroudi: In the right direction.

Alif Moosajee: But deeper but deeper [01:20:15] but deeper. Exactly. Um, and and I didn’t. I didn’t even probably [01:20:20] know that I did it. It was only afterwards it dawned on me that. Hang on a second, look at the measurement. [01:20:25] What was the measurement that I drilled compared to the implant I’ve just taken out of the packet that looks [01:20:30] a bit shorter than what.

Payman Langroudi: Was it like, a lapse in thinking or you didn’t know how [01:20:35] far to drill? Or isn’t there a marker?

Alif Moosajee: So yeah, so so there isn’t a stop [01:20:40] or there wasn’t a stop when I know probably now. Yeah. Well, I [01:20:45] remember when it happened and I then I reviewed the patient and [01:20:50] you know, it was it was numb and it didn’t seem like it was getting better over [01:20:55] time. So whatever hope we both had. I mean, I tell you, the patient wants it to [01:21:00] get better. Bloody hell. You want to get it? Want it to get better as well?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:21:05] was the numbness just the the the front. One side?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. One side, one side. It was like. Yeah. [01:21:10] Basically like in that.

Payman Langroudi: Situation, there’s no there’s no question of removing the implant to hope that things [01:21:15] get better or is there.

Alif Moosajee: I think I probably didn’t place the implant at the time. Yeah. I [01:21:20] didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Place it.

Alif Moosajee: Just it was just the drill. The drill doing.

Payman Langroudi: So you did realise you’d done the wrong thing. [01:21:25]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. I realised in there. And then I did tell the patient at the time [01:21:30] and I realised that that, you know, you, it’s [01:21:35] almost for you as a person that if you can recognise that you’ve made [01:21:40] an error and be open about it at the time, you recognise it as soon as you [01:21:45] do, then yes. It’s not nice and it’s a horrible chat [01:21:50] to have, but it’s a lot better than having withheld that from somebody [01:21:55] and then having to come clean afterwards. That’s, I think, much worse in [01:22:00] so many ways.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know the patient for years before?

Alif Moosajee: Not for years, but she is a patient [01:22:05] that was like a general patient of mine. And at that time, I mean, I was new to [01:22:10] the practice. So it’s it’s Oakdale. I’ve taken over. I’m starting to see these patients. This [01:22:15] particular patient needs an implant. So I’ve decided I’m going to do it but under supervision. So [01:22:20] that’s kind of the story of that one, maybe 1 or 2. What happens in. So, [01:22:25] uh, in the end, she was all right. She’s a bit of a dragon as a person. [01:22:30]

Payman Langroudi: She was all right with it. She was okay. Better.

Alif Moosajee: No, it.

Payman Langroudi: Just never.

Alif Moosajee: Got better. It never got better. [01:22:35] So to this day, uh, so I don’t see it, but I saw her for a long time as my general [01:22:40] patient. And I would always ask her how it was, and she would always say, well, it’s a little bit [01:22:45] different from last time or it’s not no different from last time, but she was [01:22:50] really like cool person in the sense that she just accepted that it had happened.

Payman Langroudi: Up [01:22:55] to which tooth were you replacing?

Alif Moosajee: It would have been the lower right 4 or 5, [01:23:00] or.

Payman Langroudi: Around the point where it comes out at that point.

Alif Moosajee: Exactly, exactly. So probably, yeah. [01:23:05] Just before it’s come out.

Payman Langroudi: Just before it’s come out.

Alif Moosajee: It’s still central in the jaw and yeah, easy for that [01:23:10] to happen.

Payman Langroudi: So I all the hundreds of implants you’ve placed after is that like [01:23:15] front and centre in your mind? Yeah. It’s interesting that is for you because that [01:23:20] happened to you. It happened now. Now is an interesting question is if someone listens [01:23:25] to this, will it be front and centre? The whole point of the question is so we can learn from each other’s mistakes. Right. [01:23:30]

Alif Moosajee: But I made a huge change after that because, I mean, you can imagine the thought [01:23:35] process in my mind. You know, I’ve done three implants again. Yeah. How do I stop it? Am [01:23:40] I just not right for implants? Was my gut feeling of not doing implants? Was that actually the right [01:23:45] call?

Payman Langroudi: So all of.

Alif Moosajee: These things happened. Um, and so then I started thinking about [01:23:50] how do I mitigate this? So I started looking a lot into guided, and [01:23:55] I, and I did think notionally that guided would be for me, even when I bought the practice. [01:24:00] Um, I thought that I really liked the idea of that being a stress [01:24:05] free. Part of the process of putting the implant in is that I’m kind of assured it’s going [01:24:10] to go roughly in the right place. Um, and so then I committed to making sure that [01:24:15] every single one I did after that was guided.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Alif Moosajee: And that has been the change that I’ve [01:24:20] made. And I’m right. I’m not happy that that’s happened. I need to absolutely [01:24:25] underline it.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a silver lining.

Alif Moosajee: But a silver lining came from it. And I like [01:24:30] to think it’s the right silver lining because I think and I don’t mean it in an arrogant way, but I feel like I [01:24:35] do right by people who have implants with me. And it would have been a shame if I’d given [01:24:40] up, um, because I think there are a lot of people who are better off for me. Having continued, [01:24:45] uh, and being able to provide that service for people.

Payman Langroudi: I like.

Alif Moosajee: That. So I think, uh, but [01:24:50] but that has been a boon for me. Um, I think I think, uh, [01:24:55] I mean, talk, talk for a long time about guides and not guides. And I know there is still some debate about [01:25:00] whether we should learn how to put things in freehand, but I’d probably say the antithesis. [01:25:05] Why would you want to make it overly hard for yourself, when at that time [01:25:10] I wasn’t really very confident as a surgeon. So, you know, just cutting and raising the flap and [01:25:15] all of that stuff. Oh, big effort, big effort. And now that’s up. I’m [01:25:20] going to start the process. Oh, God. So make the implant place [01:25:25] itself. And it just means that you can free up head space for all the other bits, like making sure [01:25:30] the keratinised tissue is managed well, making sure the bone grafting is done well, [01:25:35] but the implant just goes in.

Payman Langroudi: Bone grafting as well.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Normally, um, so [01:25:40] I really like doing immediate implants as I mentioned. So there’s, often bone grafting, uh, [01:25:45] you know, uh, part and parcel of that process. Yeah. During it. [01:25:50] And there’s always a way to augment and make things a bit better if you put bone in the right place. So. [01:25:55] So yeah, I’m not you know, I’m quite happy to do that. I like to.

Payman Langroudi: What stands out as like [01:26:00] a happy days or events in this journey. Like, I’m sure [01:26:05] there’s loads. But what stands out when you think of it like, at what point did you think, [01:26:10] wow, yeah, I’ve really done good there.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I remember [01:26:15] there being a day where I had, um, so I’ve been working [01:26:20] towards a few clinical goals, and I think there was a day that maybe I did [01:26:25] a cerec and then I felt really good about that. I had taken [01:26:30] a scan on an implant, I did a bit of Botox, and then I did, I did something [01:26:35] else, and it was like I just recognised that when I looked at my day that [01:26:40] me Five years before that, who had decided not to do implants? Facial [01:26:45] aesthetics. Not going to do this, this, this and this. And I was and it was a bit of ortho in that day I think. And [01:26:50] and I thought, wow, you know, I’ve and I’m the principal of this place and I’ve [01:26:55] come a long way to just have the privilege to have done a [01:27:00] day like that.

Payman Langroudi: That must feel good. Like a super generalist as well, right? Like [01:27:05] when people talk about specialists a lot, but but I had, um. Do you know Martin Adriani? [01:27:10] Yeah. Martin.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I know him. Really? Yeah. Lovely guy, but they’re both lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:27:15] generalist. Yeah. Like, I see the standard of his whitening is unbelievable, [01:27:20] let alone everything else that he does. He does all his own end his own implants, bone [01:27:25] grafts, sinus lifts, the whole thing. Cerec. They were very early on. Cerec. Yeah. [01:27:30] And there’s a lot to be said for a super generalist, you know, because it’s it’s a it’s a varied day.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. [01:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: Um, that said, there’s a lot to be said for specialising too, you know, That [01:27:40] when, when when young dentists ask me what should I do? And [01:27:45] you know, I just say, do anything. Do anything. Well, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: Do anything.

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And [01:27:50] anything you do is everything you do as well.

Payman Langroudi: But but also anything you’re good at you’ll enjoy. Right. [01:27:55] It’s, you know, like, there isn’t a I’m sure there is, but it’s not like, oh, [01:28:00] if you become a super periodontist, you’re more suited to that [01:28:05] than if you become a super endodontist. You’re more I’m a kind of person who’s suited [01:28:10] to end a rather than. It’s whichever one you’re, you’re an expert at, you’ll enjoy. Yeah. [01:28:15] You know so and so but but but then a generalist as [01:28:20] well you know, it’s that it’s kind of like that being a pillar of that community in [01:28:25] a general practice. General practice. Yeah. And then everyone you’re seeing [01:28:30] in a general way, it’s a whole different thing to a specialist, a visiting specialist, you [01:28:35] know, that sort of thing.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah I agree.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve come to the end of our time. I’m going to end with with the usual questions. [01:28:40] Fantasy dinner party.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Three guests.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive? Who [01:28:45] are you having?

Alif Moosajee: So we mentioned Tony Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Alif Moosajee: Um, I think this [01:28:50] I could so much I could learn from him which I’d love to. Um, the other one is, is, is a [01:28:55] funny one. I’ve developed a guilty pleasure recently on Netflix. They’ve started showing WrestleMania [01:29:00] and, you know, this WWE stuff. Um, so I think the Rock is a [01:29:05] really interesting person, and I think that there was a parallel with dentistry that I [01:29:10] thought about. They talk in, in wrestling about, you know, this, uh, it’s [01:29:15] obviously it’s fake and, you know, all the rest of it, but there’s a word for it. They call it kayfabe. So [01:29:20] kayfabe. Yeah. So if you are, um, in character then, [01:29:25] then you are, uh, you are performing and you’re presenting [01:29:30] what you want the audience to see. You’re presenting that to them. Yeah. And I saw [01:29:35] some parallels between that and dentistry, whereby we and we touched on this before we [01:29:40] went on air. But how sometimes we present ourselves to the patient as the all knowing God [01:29:45] who will look after everything. And what I’ve tried to explain [01:29:50] to patients is that there is stuff that we are very good at doing, [01:29:55] but there are sometimes still question marks about a diagnosis, for example, [01:30:00] or whether this treatment is going to be 100% successful. And what I’ve tried [01:30:05] to do is, again, absolve some of the stress of my own life by just [01:30:10] being honest with this person. Yeah. And if you can bring them on board [01:30:15] and just explain things in a really nice way. So again, I don’t need to sell [01:30:20] anything that I don’t think is in the right interest of the patient. I just want to provide them with the options [01:30:25] of things that I think will be good. And what that means is I can have a really open [01:30:30] and honest conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation. Right.

Alif Moosajee: Human conversation. Exactly. Educate them [01:30:35] a little bit to the level they need to be educated at to make the decision about [01:30:40] that particular field of dentistry, and then let them make the decision that’s right for them. Explain [01:30:45] risks so that if something happens, you can say, well, look, we did mention that something [01:30:50] like that could happen. By the way, I sometimes have risks that I’ve not mentioned before and I [01:30:55] will sit them down. You know, I’m sorry I didn’t mention that. I promise I did not see that coming. [01:31:00] And you open yourself up humbly and in a human way. [01:31:05]

Payman Langroudi: And that vulnerability is really important and that the way you’re saying it, but also, you know, [01:31:10] the saying, I don’t know, you know, so important sometimes.

Alif Moosajee: So.

Payman Langroudi: Important. You know, I [01:31:15] had a junior young dentist. She has two different mentors, two different [01:31:20] people that she takes cases to. And she was saying, I can’t believe how differently they came [01:31:25] up with these two.

Alif Moosajee: Wow. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The same case.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you know that’s a [01:31:30] reality, right? These are two super senior people. Yeah. Yeah. Coming [01:31:35] up with two totally different answers to the question.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:31:40] a reality. You know, it’s not changing a clutch on a car, is it? It’s.

Alif Moosajee: Well, absolutely. [01:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And patients need to know that. Yeah. Lovely. So so.

Alif Moosajee: Breaking kayfabe. [01:31:50] That’s the key third person. Uh, and the third person. Okay, I, uh, I’ve been [01:31:55] invited to to do a lecture for, uh, a teaching [01:32:00] facility, and it’s a lecture of mine that I probably presented about [01:32:05] 4 or 5 years ago. As a result, I’ve had to watch that lecture again. [01:32:10] Um, and I realised I was I was a different person talking about really [01:32:15] different things. So I hope it doesn’t sound super like arrogant, but I thought having [01:32:20] the opportunity to have dinner with myself but at a different time in my life, but [01:32:25] not not not talk and give advice about, oh, it’s going to be okay, it’s going to be. But just [01:32:30] to listen, to watch. Yeah. And just to listen to what’s what was going on then. I [01:32:35] really love that. And I think I’ve been very lucky to have been able to do [01:32:40] webinars and videos and things. So I guess when I’m old and grey and [01:32:45] well have less hair than I have now, which is probably less possible, but I’ll be able to look back and maybe [01:32:50] watch myself at different times and see what conversations I was having [01:32:55] in between the presenting bits.

Payman Langroudi: You know, people keep a diary. Yeah. And they [01:33:00] they say that I’ve never done it myself. But people who keep a journal, they say they look back [01:33:05] on their journal from ten years ago or even ten days ago. Yeah. And the thing that was bothering [01:33:10] them ten days ago, they realised today isn’t anywhere near as bad as it was ten [01:33:15] days ago. But it’s kind of an interesting thing that, um, one of my, um, [01:33:20] dad’s friends was telling me that he’s kept a diary all his life, and he reads the sort [01:33:25] of the 25 year old version of himself.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s now 80. [01:33:30] It’s an interesting thing.

Alif Moosajee: That really.

Payman Langroudi: Is. And we were talking about, you [01:33:35] know, we all had to run away from Iran, right? There was a revolution. And we were discussing what [01:33:40] do you take? Yeah. And I don’t have any photos of me before age seven [01:33:45] because. Because, you know, what do you take. They didn’t take the photos. Yes. Yeah. And this guy was saying how he [01:33:50] took his diaries. You know, it was an important thing to him, you know. Interesting. [01:33:55] Final question. It’s deathbed. Yes. Three pieces of [01:34:00] advice on your deathbed. For your loved ones, for the world.

Alif Moosajee: Um, I think [01:34:05] one would probably be to understand humanity and allow yourself [01:34:10] to be human. So what I mean by that is that we are we are still animals [01:34:15] and we’re tribal animals. We look for differences in others so that we can [01:34:20] stay together as a tribe and fend off others. Um, that’s one behaviour trait. [01:34:25] I mean, there’s so, so many. And not to be so hard on yourself. If [01:34:30] you have perhaps behaved in a way that’s maybe in the light of day. [01:34:35] Not the ideal thing, but it was a very human thing and you can see the humanity in it. [01:34:40] And also, don’t be so harsh on others who you feel have actually under [01:34:45] the reflection of it all. Have they’ve just acted in a very human way at the time? [01:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, I don’t know.

Alif Moosajee: I think another thing is, uh, yeah. [01:34:55] To try and find the fundamental truths in things. Um, what [01:35:00] I mean by that, when I was younger, I used to watch this programme called Q.i. You know, this [01:35:05] one with Steve Stephen Fry. And it was funny how there is so much perceived [01:35:10] wisdom and everyone becomes very comfortable with thinking they know how stuff is. [01:35:15] And then that buzzer goes off and says, well, that’s not the answer at all. Here’s the reality, [01:35:20] real reality of it. So so allow yourself to carry on being curious, [01:35:25] uh, and just to enjoy the process of learning because I think that’s that’s [01:35:30] a wonderful thing. Love that. Yeah. And, um. Yeah. [01:35:35] Try to. Yeah. I think a nice one is just try to do something [01:35:40] that you enjoy. Um, I remember as a child, it would often be that, you know, if there’s [01:35:45] ten things and you’re good at six and not so good at four, you’d often spend [01:35:50] all your effort. And I think that was the mentality I was brought up with. Spend all your effort and energy getting [01:35:55] those four things up as good as the others. But I think now it’s. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Work on your strengths.

Alif Moosajee: Allow to work. Yeah. Allow yourself to work on your strengths.

Payman Langroudi: That with my kids, you know, like, [01:36:05] rather than the weaknesses. Of course, there is a minimum level that you want people to get to. But what about [01:36:10] if I said, you know, you can ask that question that way, the way you just said it. But another [01:36:15] way of answering that question is I didn’t do enough of X in [01:36:20] my life.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you should. What would you say to that thing? I [01:36:25] wish I was more.

Alif Moosajee: I [01:36:30] don’t know that again. That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Classically [01:36:35] Jim. Go to the gym, for instance.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s ridiculous. But but you know what I mean. Like. Yeah. [01:36:40] Is there something do you wish you were more less risk averse. Do you wish you were [01:36:45] more, um, whatever.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I, I think that’s that’s a really [01:36:50] good one, actually. You’ve put the words in my mouth there because as I mentioned, I started off my, my [01:36:55] life and my career being such a timorous young man. Um. And [01:37:00] I wish I’d had it sooner. Yeah, absolutely. I think I’d be a lot [01:37:05] further on in my journey than than I am. And I still identify, [01:37:10] you know, they talk about these labels that we have like anxious, avoidant and this kind of thing. [01:37:15] And I still see elements of that in me. And, um, I [01:37:20] find that, you know, when I’m my centred self, I can act and control [01:37:25] who I am. But the moment there’s some stress, then we still turn into that seven [01:37:30] year old, don’t we? And we go back to that that person. And I think that’s that’s [01:37:35] the thing whereby if, if you can identify who [01:37:40] you are and the strengths and the weaknesses that come with it and try [01:37:45] and work on those, on on removing the weaknesses, then then you have a much more useful, [01:37:50] I suppose, personality that just works better.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like you’ve worked on getting [01:37:55] rid of the stress so you don’t have to get back to that person.

Alif Moosajee: But [01:38:00] I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A success man, which is success. You know, I.

Alif Moosajee: Didn’t want to. I didn’t [01:38:05] want to have regrets.

Payman Langroudi: What is what is success rate? What is success? Success is how you define it yourself. [01:38:10] Yeah, but if you’re saying that, you know you didn’t want to be this kind of person, when stress [01:38:15] comes along, you become that kind of person. Eliminate stress. Beautiful. Yeah, like that [01:38:20] means don’t open a second or third practice, for instance. Yeah, it’s the right thing to do in that moment. [01:38:25]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive, massive, uh, massive pleasure having you. Really, really enjoyed [01:38:30] it. It has been a real easy conversation. Thank you. It’s nice. Thanks, man.

Alif Moosajee: I really.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyed coming [01:38:35] all.

Alif Moosajee: The way. And thank you for for inviting me.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

[VOICE]: This [01:38:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:38:45] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:38:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:38:55] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:39:00] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had [01:39:05] to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:39:10] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [01:39:15] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks. [01:39:20]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Raj Ahluwalia onto the podcast. Raj is was a long time friend. [00:01:00] I think I’ve known you for at least 15 years longer than that.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s got to be more [00:01:05] like 20. Could be.

Payman Langroudi: Back in the rod. 30 days.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Rod. Oh [00:01:10] my God. There’s a blast from the past.

Payman Langroudi: That was the first time I brought him here. Was 2005. [00:01:15]

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. So it was 20 years. Yeah, it is 20 years. Because I knew rod before [00:01:20] you brought him over from.

Payman Langroudi: Dental.

Raj Ahlowia: Town and we went out drinks, didn’t we? When he came over that [00:01:25] time. Yeah. With Hap as well. Yeah. With Hap. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Because me and Hap knew him from before.

Payman Langroudi: From [00:01:30] Dental town.

Raj Ahlowia: From before you brought him over. Yeah. So from the Dental town days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Got [00:01:35] Dental town itself. Seems like a blast from the past.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, yeah, but that’s that’s the world [00:01:40] of the internet and, uh, apps, GDP, UK.

Payman Langroudi: Remember that? Still [00:01:45] there. You know.

Raj Ahlowia: Going on Dental town still exist as a thing. Does people still [00:01:50] use it?

Payman Langroudi: So I haven’t been for.

Raj Ahlowia: I haven’t been on it for 20 years.

Payman Langroudi: I think Howard does [00:01:55] a lot of stuff though. He does. He does This podcast. He does. He does. Uh, magazine. [00:02:00] Yeah, I’m sure it does exist.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, I’m sure it does. I’m sure it does.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:05] this journey you’ve been on, it’s interesting. Right? I wanted you particularly [00:02:10] on for your.

Raj Ahlowia: First of all. Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. My pleasure. I want you particularly on for the [00:02:15] idea of going from a practice from beginning to end. You [00:02:20] know, so, you know, the person we had in here before you, he’s on his 24th practice. [00:02:25]

Raj Ahlowia: Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: And even though that’s an exciting sounding story, [00:02:30] it’s not the typical story in dentistry. Right. And dentistry, the typical story is [00:02:35] one practice. And then.

Raj Ahlowia: Is that the typical story, though. [00:02:40]

Payman Langroudi: The most typical story.

Raj Ahlowia: To be in just one practice? Yeah, I thought I was quite a.

Payman Langroudi: Practice owner for [00:02:45] a practice owner, of course, the most typical story is a is an associate story. Um, because [00:02:50] the numbers of associates are more than the numbers of practice owners. But for a practice owner, I’d say that’s the [00:02:55] typical story. One practice. And I was reflecting on this last night. You know, [00:03:00] one of my heroes, Andrew Darwood. Yeah, yeah, one. I mean, he’s actually [00:03:05] had a couple of other practices, but one extraordinary practice, you know, that he’s constantly [00:03:10] perfecting.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then I had the CEO of Bupa here, 400 [00:03:15] practices and the challenges that that causes. And of course, he didn’t start the [00:03:20] group. But at Anoushka Brogan from Demetra, 45 [00:03:25] practices lady, three children. Um, so you know, but the [00:03:30] most common story one practice. And you were in that practice since you were a year. [00:03:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Well, yes, I started there on September the 5th, [00:03:40] 1991.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. And is it the only practice you’ve ever really worked in then?

Raj Ahlowia: No. [00:03:45] I have dabbled with, uh, working in Harley Street for other people. There was [00:03:50] a couple of Harley Street jobs, and also I’ve helped out [00:03:55] colleagues. A very nice lady who sadly was suffering with cancer and [00:04:00] needed someone to run her practice while she was dealing with that. So for a few months I went and helped [00:04:05] her out, basically running it on the weekends, keeping her practice alive, and [00:04:10] another friend that needed an implant ologist. I [00:04:15] went and did visiting implant work for him at his huge NHS [00:04:20] factory. Um, so yeah, I’ve done little bits on the side, but [00:04:25] um, never really stopped working. The usual, [00:04:30] you know, 9 to 5 grind. For me, it was, uh, 750 in the morning to five grind [00:04:35] at, uh, my little humble practice five days a week. No, it started [00:04:40] five days a week. Yeah. But, um, my nurse, who worked with me throughout [00:04:45] most of my career, actually, for over 30 years, Jill and I, we worked out that, um, [00:04:50] if we started an hour and a quarter earlier every morning for four days a week [00:04:55] and did one late evening, we could do the 9 to 5 for five [00:05:00] days. Hours in four days. So we proposed it to our principal and [00:05:05] he said, yeah, okay, give it a shot. And so from about 3 or 4 years in, [00:05:10] we dropped Jill and I to four days a week, but did these extended hours [00:05:15] at the practice. And so I did.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you’ve been doing since?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, that’s what I did [00:05:20] for, uh, yeah. About 30 odd years. Did a four day week.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. You know, the.

Raj Ahlowia: Classic. [00:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: The classic cliche about you earn more in four than you do in five?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. [00:05:30] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a classic cliche. Lots of people talk about it. I tried it and it worked. [00:05:35] It did work for me, but it was to do with the fewer hours. As in sharper [00:05:40] hours.

Raj Ahlowia: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so, you know, like, as you don’t leave [00:05:45] anything half baked or temporise, you’re much sharper with every patient, every sort [00:05:50] of examination. You’re faster.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That worked. I went from 5 to 4. [00:05:55] I didn’t earn more. I earned the same. Yeah. And then from. But then I thought, let’s try 4 to 3. And [00:06:00] that didn’t work.

Raj Ahlowia: I think the patients liked it because, um, [00:06:05] where the practice was in Biggleswade, it was about a three minute walk from the station. Yeah. [00:06:10] And so there was a huge, uh, sort of proportion [00:06:15] of the patients really wanted those early in the morning appointments from [00:06:20] 750 in the morning so they could come do their check-up and whatever, and then go get the train to work or [00:06:25] then come in the evening. So from, from a patient’s patients.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t it.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. [00:06:30] It really we found that it really suited them. And then of course there was the group that preferred [00:06:35] to come in the middle of the day, the housewives and the rest of them. Um, but yeah, having that wider, [00:06:40] broader range of hours, um, was a unique thing back when we started [00:06:45] doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And the patients really did appreciate it. So we captured a bit of a market [00:06:50] there. Yeah, that was nice.

Payman Langroudi: Do you live around there as well?

Raj Ahlowia: No, I’ve never lived around there. I’ve [00:06:55] always lived. Well, not always. I mean, my younger years was growing up in [00:07:00] north London. Um, but then my father bought a business [00:07:05] in Saint Albans, and we moved to Saint Albans when I was just turned 11. And [00:07:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: What did your father do?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, well, he’s deceased now, but, um, [00:07:15] he had a very interesting life, actually. Uh, he hitchhiked from India [00:07:20] to the UK. You’re kidding. He took the queen or the king at the time, a £3 [00:07:25] offer when they were looking for male workforce to rebuild [00:07:30] the UK, rebuild the country and the economy. And the deal was that if you [00:07:35] took the King’s £3 or the Queen’s £3, um, you had to then make your own way. [00:07:40] So he came by land and it took him a year. Wow. And the interesting journey that he took [00:07:45] through Afghanistan and Iran and Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia [00:07:50] and Germany, eastern Germany and western Germany, and then eventually to the UK, stopping [00:07:55] along the way and working jobs as a waiter or whatever. Um, he [00:08:00] told me a story once where he got stuck in. It was either Yugoslavia. I think it must have been Yugoslavia [00:08:05] while it was still a communist country. And he was, uh, waiting [00:08:10] tables in a restaurant. And, um, he was the only Indian brown guy there, [00:08:15] you know, in the whole country, practically, and wearing a turban. And, um, in walked [00:08:20] another turbaned Indian guy. It turned out to be the ambassador of India, [00:08:25] of India in Yugoslavia. And this guy said to my dad, you know, what the hell are you doing here? And [00:08:30] my dad said, well, I’m trying to hitchhike my way to the UK. And he [00:08:35] said, you need to get out of this Eastern European country because this is a communist country. You [00:08:40] don’t get stuck here. So he bunged my dad some cash To to help him move [00:08:45] on to the next phase of his journey. So when he did finally get to the UK, he did [00:08:50] all kinds of jobs. I think he I remember him telling me that at the time there were jobs all [00:08:55] over. You could go to a factory, knock on the door and there’d be jobs for you. And his first job [00:09:00] was working as as an injection moulder, making plastic [00:09:05] trays for food.

Payman Langroudi: This in the 50s?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. And he told me that [00:09:10] he lasted there about two days because, um, the supervisor came over and found [00:09:15] his pile of, uh, plastic trays. All had an indentation from a screw in [00:09:20] them because a screw had fallen down into the mould. And my dad said, look, I [00:09:25] don’t know anything about that. You told me, pull this lever, put another plastic template [00:09:30] in, pull the lever again, take the template out and stack it. I don’t know anything about [00:09:35] screws loose inside the machine. And so he lost the job and he said, that’s fine and walked to the next factory. [00:09:40] I got another job, But eventually what happened was he ended [00:09:45] up working for the post office, and within the post office he found a community [00:09:50] of other Sikhs who had emigrated, and those that little core [00:09:55] group of 4 or 5 friends remained his friends for life. And [00:10:00] it’s interesting that a lot of my childhood friends are the children of that little group of [00:10:05] five Sikh guys, and now there’s sadly, there’s only two of them left [00:10:10] alive. The three of them, the.

Payman Langroudi: Original.

Raj Ahlowia: Group, three of the original group have died, [00:10:15] and there’s only two of them that remain.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Raj Ahlowia: And I met up actually last week [00:10:20] with, uh, two, two of the sons from two different fathers. Um, [00:10:25] we were like a little trio of three that were around the same age back when we were tiny [00:10:30] little kids. And the way that the community worked back then is on the weekends. [00:10:35] They would all meet, and these guys loved to drink. There was the Chivas [00:10:40] Regal and, you know, the Johnnie Walker Black Label. They’d [00:10:45] be sitting and playing cards while the wives would all be cooking the food, and the kids would all be playing together and we’d [00:10:50] all sleep over. And the following weekend it would be another one’s house, and then the following weekend would [00:10:55] be another one’s house. So I grew up with these guys that were like my cousins in [00:11:00] a community that they made for themselves because they’d left all their cousins. The [00:11:05] parents had left the story.

Payman Langroudi: The immigrant story is your friends become your family. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got [00:11:10] your family around.

Raj Ahlowia: And those those old dudes were like, closer to me as uncles [00:11:15] than my genuine uncles growing up who I never met.

Payman Langroudi: Overseas.

Raj Ahlowia: Or they were overseas and [00:11:20] I knew them. I never met them. So they really weren’t on my radar. [00:11:25] But these guys were.

Payman Langroudi: I have a similar situation here, actually, and actually we call each [00:11:30] other cousins.

Raj Ahlowia: Exactly. Well, more like brothers even.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but [00:11:35] interesting, because one of my best friends from school was a Sikh guy whose dad worked at the post office. [00:11:40] I wonder if maybe.

Raj Ahlowia: So. [00:11:45] So he worked for the post office for years and years and years, until eventually he had to retire through a [00:11:50] back injury, back problems. And you know, he’s still collecting the the post [00:11:55] Office pension and my mum is still collecting his post pension. But then after that, there was a lull [00:12:00] for several years around the time when I was about 16 to 1920, where he, [00:12:05] um. Oh, no. Sorry. Uh, after the post office, [00:12:10] um, that’s when he started becoming a bit of an entrepreneur. And he started with, um, [00:12:15] a, uh, a stall on Wembley Market. So he was [00:12:20] selling women’s and children’s clothes on Wembley Market. Then eventually he bought a shop in [00:12:25] Saint Albans, which was a sort of grocery shop. And he, [00:12:30] he basically I always say my dad invented the concept of 7-Eleven because [00:12:35] he would open at stupid o’clock in the morning and keep it open till late in the evening and [00:12:40] eventually, you know, got an off licence. It became a very popular, uh, shop. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: But by this time you were gone.

Raj Ahlowia: No. This was. We bought the shop. When? When I was 11 [00:12:50] or 11. We moved to Saint Albans when I was 11. So I did my secondary school education in [00:12:55] in Saint Albans. It was towards the end of that that he sold the business.

Payman Langroudi: When did [00:13:00] you chip in as well?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh yeah. I was always working there. Yeah, I had to, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cash and carry [00:13:05] all the.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Trips to the cash and carry to go to Cricklewood. Um, to the cash and carry and Cricklewood. [00:13:10] And in his clapped out van, um, sitting on the engine in the back of a VW [00:13:15] camper van kind of deal. Um, that was his, um, you know, a goods vehicle.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:13:20] that, sort of that sort of communication with the whole public. Yeah. [00:13:25] That you get in a shop. Yeah. It’s literally everyone, isn’t it? Yeah. Because anyone [00:13:30] from the old granny to the.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, we lived on a, we lived on an estate, a council estate, [00:13:35] and we lived five of us in a one bedroom flat above the shop. So my [00:13:40] mum and dad had the bedroom and me and my brother and my sister, we we slept in the living room, my [00:13:45] sister slept on the sofa bed and next to the sofa bed was another double bed that me and my [00:13:50] brother shared. And I remember, you know, it was 50 pees in the metre to [00:13:55] pay for the gas and the electric and the shop was downstairs, so it was a [00:14:00] pretty poor little council estate, but one tiny little parade of shops. And [00:14:05] um, yeah, it was a very popular little grocery shop. And I what forced him really to [00:14:10] sell was that they’d already, um, a co-op had opened up in [00:14:15] the small parade, and then the shop next to us was going to open as a pure off licence. And [00:14:20] my dad thought, you know, this is a time to sell before this competition kind of ruins [00:14:25] the situation. Weirdly, that off licence shop [00:14:30] is now a dental practice, Which is quite interesting. Um, yeah. [00:14:35] So, um, after he sold that, he decided to retire for a bit. And by this [00:14:40] time I was in dental school.

Raj Ahlowia: And then after dental school, while I [00:14:45] was at VTI, there was a guy in the shop below the practice [00:14:50] who was another Sikh guy, and he ran an auto spares shop. And my dad spotted [00:14:55] this when he’d driven me up to the practice for my interview for the job. [00:15:00] And he parked the car. And he just as Sikh people do in [00:15:05] Indian people do, they go and they meet another Indian person, go chat to them. So he made a struck [00:15:10] up a friendship with this guy and this auto shop below [00:15:15] the practice. And every now and again he would randomly come and visit this guy and [00:15:20] say hi and sit and chat with him in the shop. And one day, um, [00:15:25] a policeman came to the shop and said, look, we’ve got a person in [00:15:30] custody in the Biggleswade Nick around the corner and we can’t communicate with [00:15:35] him. We don’t know. Don’t know what language he speaks. Would either of you be free to help us? [00:15:40] We know he’s from your part of the world. And of course the guy in the shop couldn’t leave because it’s [00:15:45] his shop. And my dad said, yeah, I’ll come with you. So he went round the corner to the Biggleswade Nick. And, [00:15:50] um, the police said, look, we just need you to read him his [00:15:55] rights.

Raj Ahlowia: So my dad went in, spoke with him in [00:16:00] one language, couldn’t communicate. But the interesting thing about my dad is because he [00:16:05] hitchhiked from India to the UK. He picked up a lot [00:16:10] of languages along the way, and he comes from a part of India called Maharashtra, which [00:16:15] has the native language of Marathi. So he could speak Marathi like [00:16:20] a native, but he could also speak Hindi like a native because Hindi was the national language. [00:16:25] But he’s a Punjabi Sikh so he could also speak Punjabi and Punjabi. [00:16:30] And Punjab is quite close to Pakistan. And my dad travelled through Pakistan [00:16:35] and picked up Urdu quite quickly and then he picked up Arabic and [00:16:40] eventually you know, German as well. Um, because he stayed in Germany for a while and obviously [00:16:45] whatever serbo-croat they spoke in Yugoslavia. So he started with one [00:16:50] language, listen to what the guy was saying and realised, oh, I can communicate [00:16:55] with him in a dialect, something or other close to what he can speak in. And [00:17:00] he eventually explained to him, these are your rights. And he gave his details [00:17:05] to the police and left. And about a month later a check arrived [00:17:10] from Bedfordshire Police for.

Payman Langroudi: Translation.

Raj Ahlowia: Translation [00:17:15] services. And what’s this? And I said, dad, what that is, is an opportunity. [00:17:20] And that weekend we composed a CV, uh, [00:17:25] printed out loads of copies of it and letters, and [00:17:30] we sent them to every police station in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire. And we also I said [00:17:35] to my dad, you also want to send them to all the solicitors offices, as [00:17:40] many as you can think of locally. And that began his second career as [00:17:45] an interpreter.

Payman Langroudi: How crazy.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. And he loved that job because [00:17:50] we weren’t that far from Luton. And the local [00:17:55] police used to come and pick him up and drive him every day to [00:18:00] go, and.

Payman Langroudi: A different place to do that.

Raj Ahlowia: Different interpretations. He ended up working [00:18:05] in the courts. Lots of lawyers knew him and they would pick him because he could [00:18:10] speak so many different languages. He ended up working at the airports when the cycle [00:18:15] of all right now we’re on to Asian immigrants, we’re going to start interviewing them. And [00:18:20] there would be a cycle where, you know, they’d do immigrants from Africa and Africa where a Far [00:18:25] East. But when it got to the Asian ones, they’d recruit him and he’d be going day after day. He’d travel as [00:18:30] far as Wales. They’d pick him up and escort him. And he knew [00:18:35] so many police people personally, his personal friends, so many lawyers, and he [00:18:40] was a very sociable person. And, um, yeah, he loved that job. Did [00:18:45] that write up a.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant story, man?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, yeah. So, weirdly, he should have [00:18:50] done that from the start, because what he didn’t realise was he had this.

Payman Langroudi: Skill.

Raj Ahlowia: He had this skill [00:18:55] set of all these languages. I mean, when we when we made the CV and we were trying to work [00:19:00] out all the languages we listed 15.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Raj Ahlowia: 15 different languages that he could speak [00:19:05] fluently, which was crazy because I didn’t know this about my [00:19:10] dad. And, you know, I was now 25, 26 and helping him to start this second [00:19:15] very, very successful career.

Payman Langroudi: Where did dentistry come into play? I mean, were you a clever kid? Were [00:19:20] you like top of your class or what were you?

Raj Ahlowia: Way I was. Yeah, yeah, but [00:19:25] dentistry wasn’t on my radar.

Payman Langroudi: What were you thinking?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, University wasn’t on my radar.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Raj Ahlowia: No [00:19:30] one in my family had gone to university. It didn’t even. It wasn’t even a conversation [00:19:35] in the house. It wasn’t a conversation with relatives or friends. We were. I [00:19:40] was the son of a postman, you know, uh, nobody that I knew, [00:19:45] nobody that my parents knew had gone to university. So I didn’t [00:19:50] actually fit in a university application form. I was at school and [00:19:55] there was a deadline for handing in what was then called the Ucca form University in college, something [00:20:00] application form, and I hadn’t filled one in and the deadline was, um, [00:20:05] pretty close. And my form teacher at the [00:20:10] time was also my chemistry teacher. I was doing chemistry A-level, and he also happened [00:20:15] to be the careers adviser for school, so he was the person [00:20:20] wanting to see the Ucca forms. He came to me one morning and said, why aren’t you handed [00:20:25] in your Ucca form yet? And I said, well, I haven’t for one thing. And he [00:20:30] was gobsmacked. And he said, but you’re a a really [00:20:35] good student. You’re doing well in your A-levels. You did really [00:20:40] well in your O-levels because before GCSEs. He said, [00:20:45] why haven’t you thought about university? I said, well, I was just going to leave school and get a job. [00:20:50]

Raj Ahlowia: I was thinking about getting a job with a bank. And [00:20:55] he said, what he said is that what you want to do out of your life? I [00:21:00] said, no, I wanted to be an airline pilot, but my eyesight was crappy and my parents can’t [00:21:05] afford to, um, give me flying lessons. Um, so I [00:21:10] didn’t really have any other ambitions other than that. And [00:21:15] he said, right, look, you need to do something for me. And he said, I want [00:21:20] you to write down things that you want out of life. Write [00:21:25] it down on a piece of paper. And then I want you to go get a university course guidebook. And [00:21:30] I want you to go through it and look to see. Is there anything in [00:21:35] there that could give you what you want out of life, but also matches the [00:21:40] three A-levels? You’re doing maths, physics and chemistry because you’ve got a lot [00:21:45] of opportunities in your spark kid and university is free. And it was at the time, in [00:21:50] fact, they’d give you a grant to go. It was about £3,000 a year, but you didn’t [00:21:55] have to pay anything to the university. So I didn’t [00:22:00] really have anything else to do that weekend. So I thought, I’ll take you at your word and I’ll do this exercise. [00:22:05]

Raj Ahlowia: So I wrote down what I wanted out of life and it wasn’t that [00:22:10] stunning. I just put down things that were just slightly better than [00:22:15] what we had at the time. Like I would like to go on a holiday. We had [00:22:20] never been on a holiday. I’ve been out of the country, uh, to India to visit [00:22:25] relatives. And actually, that’s another whole story because I got left there in a [00:22:30] boarding school and almost died. Uh, so that’s something else we can talk about another [00:22:35] time. But, um, the only other time I’d left mainland England was a [00:22:40] day trip with those other kids and other uncles from the post office [00:22:45] and aunties. We went on a day trip to the Isle of Wight. So I wrote down, I’d like [00:22:50] to go on a holiday and I’d like to have a nice car. I like to own my own [00:22:55] house. Um. By this point we had moved out of the one bedroom flat. He [00:23:00] had made enough money in the house in the business to buy a house. And, uh, so [00:23:05] I wasn’t looking to be a millionaire or billionaire. I just wanted to do slightly better [00:23:10] than my dad had. Grafted multiple jobs and worked his, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Expectations [00:23:15] are a funny thing. You know, like, there’s been research on it that everyone thinks if they earn [00:23:20] two and a half times more than they earn, that would be a lot of money. Yeah. Everyone how much [00:23:25] they earn? Yeah. You know, like the person earning 30 grand says 95 or whatever [00:23:30] it is.

Raj Ahlowia: There’s a difference now with this Instagram generation where everybody’s [00:23:35] showing their best life and living like a billionaire, and everyone [00:23:40] feels like that’s what they deserve and should have. And if they don’t have it, [00:23:45] there’s a disappointment. And I feel that’s a little bit sad for them. I feel sorry for them.

Payman Langroudi: You know that thing? [00:23:50] What’s the cliche comparison is the something of joy that takes [00:23:55] all your joy? Yeah, yeah. And and certainly when you know, it’s.

Raj Ahlowia: Like, don’t read beauty magazines [00:24:00] because it’ll only is in that song, wasn’t it by Baz Luhrmann. Don’t don’t look at. [00:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: But certainly certainly looking at your neighbour’s car and shoes and holidays is a massive [00:24:10] error. But now with with social. It’s almost it’s almost [00:24:15] the default like seeing what everyone’s up to.

Raj Ahlowia: So I was only comparing myself to what I knew, which [00:24:20] is what my dad. And so.

Payman Langroudi: Then. Okay, so then you look down the list and dentistry seem to fit. [00:24:25]

Raj Ahlowia: No, what happened was I went I went out, and I bought Brian Heaps University [00:24:30] Course Guide book, 1985 1986. Is that a pink cover and a graphic of a [00:24:35] student looking at some books? And I went through the A to Z Aardvark [00:24:40] technology to zoology. Pretty much the same stuff, [00:24:45] right? So I went through the A to Z, and I came up with a short list [00:24:50] of a few things, but only two of them matched on the A-levels [00:24:55] required, because then you’d flick to that page and you’d see what A-levels are required. And there are only two things. [00:25:00] And so I filled in my form. You’re allowed five choices. I put down [00:25:05] three choices for dentistry and [00:25:10] two for astrophysics. And I handed it in to doctor Roger [00:25:15] Bellini. Lovely guy. And, uh, he took one look at it [00:25:20] and he looked up at me. He goes, you’re an idiot. That was the words that came out of his mouth. And I was [00:25:25] like, I was really in a way, I was really disappointed. Upset because I’d done exactly [00:25:30] what he’d asked. And I told him, well, I did exactly what you asked. And he said, yeah, I [00:25:35] get you’ve done what I asked, but you’ve picked two incredibly [00:25:40] hard courses to get into. There’s so much competition to get into these. [00:25:45] You’re going to have like 20,000 other kids trying to get into these Dental schools [00:25:50] or astrophysics colleges, and the astrophysics colleges and the Dental schools are going [00:25:55] to only look for reasons to reject applications quickly. And one of [00:26:00] them will be, are you committed to this profession? So if you haven’t put down five applications [00:26:05] for astrophysics, forget it. None of the astrophysics colleges are going to want you. And if you haven’t done five for dentistry, [00:26:10] they’re going to do the same thing.

Raj Ahlowia: So he said take it away. Another copy to [00:26:15] choose between astrophysics or dentistry and put down five applications. So [00:26:20] I went home that day after school and I did the one thing [00:26:25] no teenage boy ever does. I asked my dad for advice. [00:26:30] Okay. And he could see I was itching to ask him something because I [00:26:35] was kind of trying to get close to him. And sometimes [00:26:40] these ageing parents, fathers in particular, it’s hard to get close [00:26:45] to them and ask them for advice. They’re too busy in their own world of working hard to make [00:26:50] a living and pay the mortgage. And he said, you look like you got something on your mind. What do you want to ask me? [00:26:55] And I explained to him, I said, look, I’m going to go to university. And he goes, oh, you’re [00:27:00] going to go to university, are you? And this is news to him. It’s the first time he knew that I was going to apply. And [00:27:05] I said, yeah. And, um, I’ve got to make a decision between 1 or 2 things [00:27:10] and he goes, okay, what’s that then? And I said, well, uh, either [00:27:15] become an astrophysicist or become a dentist. And [00:27:20] he stopped and he just looked at me for about five seconds, and he went, do you [00:27:25] really think NASA’s going to give a job to an Indian boy from north London? Go become a dentist. That [00:27:30] was it. And I thought, yeah, he’s got a point. [00:27:35] Now, I could have been landing lunar rovers [00:27:40] right on the moon now. India bloody, landing their own things. Now [00:27:45] on the moon. I could have been doing that instead.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention the CEO of [00:27:50] Microsoft and Google Indians.

Raj Ahlowia: What? I could have been doing something like that. Or I could [00:27:55] have been a banker and, uh, got my own chalet in the Swiss Alps or something. [00:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: But although, although we mustn’t paper over something that your dad was saying, that [00:28:05] was true at the time. Yeah. Was that I remember going on elective in 92, [00:28:10] and the dean of UCSF where I went was gay [00:28:15] and black, right. And I remember thinking, there is no way the Dean of [00:28:20] Cardiff, where I was, was going to be gay, all black.

Raj Ahlowia: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And that [00:28:25] was the way of the world in 85, 86. That was I’m sure your dad was looking in the post office saying, [00:28:30] no, no. Brown faces at the top of the organisation. You know, we mustn’t crack up like paper over [00:28:35] that fact.

Raj Ahlowia: I mean, I took him and his what he was as vice was, and it was [00:28:40] I thought, you know, you’re right. Go and become a dentist. So. So where did you go? Late. [00:28:45] I handed in my day.

Payman Langroudi: Late.

Raj Ahlowia: With five applications for dentistry, and [00:28:50] I got one offer, and that’s where I went. What was it, guys?

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:28:55] Yeah. Okay. And did you spend the first year in digs or, [00:29:00] uh, Wolfson House, whatever it was called?

Raj Ahlowia: So back then, there wasn’t [00:29:05] guaranteed accommodation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: You had to go and find somewhere to live. And [00:29:10] it was a struggle trying to find somewhere to live, and ended up in a house with [00:29:15] a couple of medics and three dental students in Stretham. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: In the first year. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, in Stretham. In the first term. And [00:29:25] the landlord was a very old guy, and he [00:29:30] just kept turning up every day. And we were [00:29:35] like, this. This guy’s really weird. Why does he keep turning up here and [00:29:40] hanging out? We found it. We all found it very uncomfortable. [00:29:45] So within a few weeks, we all had to sit somewhere else. And [00:29:50] I went to the, um, office at the dental school and explained my problem [00:29:55] that I need to find somewhere. And they helped me to get a room [00:30:00] in the nurses home at guy’s campus, which was next door to the [00:30:05] medical school building, which is where we had a lot of our undergraduate first year. So I lived [00:30:10] in the.

Payman Langroudi: What was your what was your outlook like? You know, you come from the suburbs. Yeah, big, [00:30:15] big city and all that. Were you. Yeah. Were you excited? Scared? Were you, were you excited? [00:30:20] Party guy?

Raj Ahlowia: I wasn’t I wasn’t a party guy. I’ve never [00:30:25] been a party guy. I’ve always been a bit [00:30:30] of a loner, a bit aloof. Um, I like [00:30:35] people watching, but I don’t kind of fit in easily. There’s reasons [00:30:40] for it. Um, one of them is I suffer from a thing called prosopagnosia [00:30:45] right from childhood. And, um, it’s gotten worse as I’ve gotten [00:30:50] older. And prosopagnosia is an odd thing. It affects about 1 in 10,000 people I didn’t know I had [00:30:55] it until I started googling. And Google wasn’t a thing back then. But [00:31:00] prosopagnosia is a disconnect between the visual part of your brain [00:31:05] and the brain that recognises names and labels. [00:31:10] So when I see people, I don’t recognise them. And [00:31:15] that happens even with family members. It’s not that I don’t recognise them, I know that I know them. [00:31:20] But what I can’t bring to my mouth is an aphasia to bring their [00:31:25] name to my mouth. And so it’s on the tip of my tongue and it’s sometimes it can [00:31:30] be embarrassing. So my wife knows about this. A lot of my colleagues at work know about this, and [00:31:35] they would always find ways to help me. But I also found strategies myself to help myself. Um, [00:31:40] so, for example, if we, um, meet people my wife has never [00:31:45] met before or Dental colleagues, I’m struggling to bring their name to my [00:31:50] mouth, and I have a feeling that I know them, but [00:31:55] I’m not sure. So I find strategies to to to help me recognise people that I do know. Um, [00:32:00] but I’ll say something like, oh, why don’t you guys introduce yourself? I’ll go grab [00:32:05] some drinks. And my wife knows exactly what that means. It means that I don’t want to get [00:32:10] feel, make this person feel embarrassed. Like I don’t know their name because they know that I know them, [00:32:15] but I just can’t bring their name.

Payman Langroudi: Is it just a social thing or is it?

Raj Ahlowia: I know it happens all the time, for [00:32:20] example.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, do you do you manage to remember that all the branches of the vagus nerve or whatever, [00:32:25] like how did you know I.

Raj Ahlowia: I used to draw diagrams and [00:32:30] by rote learning, uh, I’m visual that way that [00:32:35] I can just keep drawing the same diagram over and over again, the labels down, and then then [00:32:40] figure it out. Um, but I mean, the the weirdest example of this is, uh, [00:32:45] I went to my wife’s from Finland, and early in our relationship, I [00:32:50] went to Finland to hang out with them at their family summer cottages by the [00:32:55] lakes and I ended up going and spooning my now sister in law. [00:33:00] I jumped on the back of a bench and cuddled her from behind and was [00:33:05] snuggling her neck and she went, oh, hello.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the wrong.

Raj Ahlowia: Sister. And I was like, oh [00:33:10] my God. And so weird little things like that. Um, but my nurse [00:33:15] Jill, for many years, she understood and she would help me by, um, [00:33:20] um, sort of, uh, giving me a [00:33:25] quick update of who the person was that I’d been seeing for years and years and years as a patient, but [00:33:30] had no clue from their name who they were or what their face was. [00:33:35] I knew the name and I knew the face, but I couldn’t put the two together. [00:33:40] And that’s been the way it always has been for me. So, um, building [00:33:45] relationships with people, building social connections has always been slightly [00:33:50] difficult. And going out to a nightclub where it’s dark and [00:33:55] it’s noisy. I can’t use some of my [00:34:00] strategies for helping me to recognise faces, so I study faces. Uh, [00:34:05] probably more than other people do, because I’m looking for things that I can link [00:34:10] using memory strategies to a label that helps me know their [00:34:15] name. So one of the hardest ones, um, I [00:34:20] always seem to have trouble with is, um, there’s [00:34:25] a there’s a particular actor who I love his his his work, and [00:34:30] I can never remember his name. And I always have to link it [00:34:35] through a convoluted series of connections of what movie he’s been and what some other actor has [00:34:40] been in to somebody who I can recognise and then get back to his name. And the reason I can’t tell you his name [00:34:45] is, is because I’m trying to go through that process and I can’t remember his name.

Payman Langroudi: I think I [00:34:50] may have a degree of this disease too. I don’t know. I’m terrible with [00:34:55] faces and names.

Raj Ahlowia: So I avoid social situations.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:35:00] you kind of describe yourself as an introvert.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, a little bit. It makes me. It makes [00:35:05] me a little bit introverted. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because you know what you describe. You know, the way people discuss [00:35:10] extrovert. Introvert is an introvert is tired by social interaction. Well, if [00:35:15] you’re having to go through all these hoops.

Raj Ahlowia: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tiring.

Raj Ahlowia: It exhausts me. Yeah, yeah [00:35:20] yeah. So I don’t don’t. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then what was the experience like. How would you [00:35:25] overall assess your dental school experience.

Raj Ahlowia: I hated it.

Payman Langroudi: Hated it.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah absolutely hated [00:35:30] it. I’m not academically gifted. Um, but I have incredibly [00:35:35] good hand skills. And because of this visual acuity of having to use visual [00:35:40] concentration, um, I use it a lot. [00:35:45] And so I could see a skill and do it if someone [00:35:50] showed me how to do something, I could watch what they were doing with my hands and repeat it. [00:35:55] Um, this this came to a point. Um, there’s a funny story about this. [00:36:00] I, my wife and I went to the Bahamas early in our relationship for a [00:36:05] holiday, and we went to the Atlantis Hotel in the Bahamas, [00:36:10] which is almost identical to the one in Dubai. And we were sitting at [00:36:15] a bar in the casino, and this guy walked up to us. He was older, [00:36:20] we were only in our early 30s, and he was clearly in his 50s [00:36:25] or so, and trailing behind him was a very sheepish looking young American couple. [00:36:30] We didn’t understand what was going on with them, but this guy sat next to us and he said, are you guys here [00:36:35] on holiday? And we went, yeah, yeah we are. And he goes, are you enjoying everything? Yeah, yeah. He goes, uh, [00:36:40] would you like to see a magic trick? And we’re like, yeah, sure. And he goes, I’ll show you this [00:36:45] magic trick.

Raj Ahlowia: Um, but I’m also going to make a bet with you. It’s a hand skill trick. [00:36:50] And he said, I’m going to show it to you, and I’ll make a bet with you for $1,000 [00:36:55] that you can’t do it, even if I show it to you three times. And I said, [00:37:00] no, I’m not really interested. And he goes, no, no, no. Why not? And I said, well, I don’t have $1,000 [00:37:05] to lose. For starters, he goes, look, I’ll show you it first and then you can [00:37:10] decide whether you want to take the bet. So he showed me this little hand skill magic trick that [00:37:15] involved just basically two champagne corks and manipulating them in your hands. And [00:37:20] he goes there. That’s all you have to do. You just have to do this thing that I’ve [00:37:25] just showed you. And I go, look, I still I saw what you did, and I can do it. That’s fine. But [00:37:30] I don’t have $1,000 to lose. And then he laid the bombshell that explained what [00:37:35] the sheepish couple was all about. He said, you don’t have to have $1,000. I’ve got $1,000. [00:37:40] If you can do it, I’ll give you $1,000. But if you can’t, [00:37:45] I get to spend the evening with your young lady. And it [00:37:50] was like straight out of that movie.

Payman Langroudi: Your wife. Indecent proposal.

Raj Ahlowia: Indecent proposal. [00:37:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa!

Raj Ahlowia: And she looked at me like. You better not take [00:38:00] this. We weren’t married at the time. And I said, look, I [00:38:05] can do that. So I said, sure. So [00:38:10] I took the corks and I did it first time in front of him. And [00:38:15] the guy flipped out. He thought I knew the magic trick and had seen it before. I said, no, I haven’t. [00:38:20] I have not seen that trick before. I just happen to be very [00:38:25] good with my hands and visual acuity. And then [00:38:30] I realised what the young couple were following him around for. Because they had lost the bet. And [00:38:35] in the end, he didn’t pay me the thousand. He welshed on it. He just got angry and stormed off.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:38:40] dear, oh dear. Actually, before.

Raj Ahlowia: He stormed off he tried to do a he tried to do a double or nothing, but [00:38:45] I got him on that one as well. So, um. Yeah. And then he stormed off. So [00:38:50] I’ve been always very good with my eyes and had a [00:38:55] pretty good dexterity in my hands up until recently. [00:39:00] And so I could watch a skill and repeat it. Yeah, but [00:39:05] reading a book was terrible. You know, I fall asleep [00:39:10] after 3 or 4 pages reading any Dental book. You know, if someone wants a cure for insomnia, I’ve [00:39:15] got a whole stack of dental textbooks. Help yourself, mate, read five pages, you’re going to fall [00:39:20] asleep.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about your first job.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. So my first [00:39:25] job. Well, that’s not my first job. My first job was my, you know, summer [00:39:30] Saturday job. But you want to know about dentistry? Yeah. So my first job was [00:39:35] my job, which is in the.

Payman Langroudi: In the practice that you spent your whole career [00:39:40] in.

Raj Ahlowia: I spent my whole career in. Yeah. So I am a [00:39:45] very risk averse kind of person. And at the time when we graduated, [00:39:50] the choices were go and find a job applying [00:39:55] wherever. I think the jobs were just advertising the BD at the time, and [00:40:00] you could choose between trying to get a private job in Harley Street or if you had enough family [00:40:05] money, go and set your own one up or whatever, or um, go [00:40:10] and get a job in the NHS. And there was a very few private [00:40:15] practices outside of Harley Street. That’s right. So. [00:40:20] I didn’t know one NHS practice from another. What was [00:40:25] a good one? What was a bad one? But I knew there was a a range of them. But [00:40:30] what I did know was that there was this new thing called VCT, and that the [00:40:35] trainers had been vetted as passing some [00:40:40] standard and having the ability to teach general practice. [00:40:45] So I thought, I’ll do that. It was voluntary at the time. Now it’s mandatory, but at the time [00:40:50] it was the second year of the experiment. 1991. It was entirely [00:40:55] voluntary, whether you want to do it. And I thought, right, I’ll do that. And [00:41:00] I thought, I don’t have money, I [00:41:05] don’t have any savings. I need to earn money fast, and I’m going to have to work by, uh, [00:41:10] somewhere close to my parents house. So I got the list of all [00:41:15] the practices in Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire, and there were only three. [00:41:20] So I applied to all three. One of them was in Hitchin in Hertfordshire. One [00:41:25] of them was Bedford in Bedfordshire, and the other one was Biggleswade. So I had interviews [00:41:30] at all three. The guy in Hitchin absolutely loved me.

Raj Ahlowia: He was a guy’s man and I was a [00:41:35] guy’s man. He absolutely loved me. Um, but there was some things about the way [00:41:40] he ran the practice when I was asking him, and also about what would happen after [00:41:45] the year that didn’t sit well with me. He said, oh, [00:41:50] no, I don’t believe in Associateships. But you can be my assistant and work under my [00:41:55] number. And I said, well, what does that mean? Do I have clinical freedom with my [00:42:00] patients? He goes, no, you’ll have to justify everything to me. It’s okay. [00:42:05] Never heard of that before. The guy in Bedford wanted somebody [00:42:10] who was a little closer. He said, where are you going to live? I said, my parents in Saint Albans, [00:42:15] and it’s not that far. But it was far enough that he said you wouldn’t be close [00:42:20] enough to handle the on call work. I need someone who’s going to be living closer. And the [00:42:25] guy in Biggleswade, when I went there, he showed me the practice and he said, if you like [00:42:30] it, let me know. So the guy in Bedford didn’t want me because [00:42:35] I was too far away. The guy in Hitchin had this odd arrangement [00:42:40] for after VAT and I wanted some continuity. I wanted to start [00:42:45] a practice where I could build a career, and I felt like I didn’t want to be then [00:42:50] finishing the VC and then having to find another job, because I might as well have just done that from the start. Just [00:42:55] find a regular job. Um, so I rang the guy in Biggleswade [00:43:00] and he said, sure, start on this day. And that was it. So [00:43:05] I started on September the 5th.

Payman Langroudi: How many years after that did you buy it?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, [00:43:10] well. Well.

Payman Langroudi: I know I’m jumping, but. But how many years was it.

Raj Ahlowia: After [00:43:15] the VAT year?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: He asked me, did I want to be a partner?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, dear. And then. [00:43:20] Wow.

Raj Ahlowia: And I said no, because for one, I couldn’t afford it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:43:25]

Raj Ahlowia: And every year thereafter he kept asking me and I [00:43:30] kept saying no, because I was always thinking about the future and I wasn’t married, but [00:43:35] I was dating [00:43:40] somebody from Cyprus. And there was a plan maybe [00:43:45] that we would go move to Cyprus. So I didn’t want to commit to buying [00:43:50] somewhere and then being connected to it and unable [00:43:55] to separate myself. And so I thought, until I get married, I don’t know where I’m going to [00:44:00] end up. Anyway, the relationship with the one from Cyprus fizzled out, and [00:44:05] I ended up dating women in America because I was studying in America throughout a lot of [00:44:10] my early years as an associate.

Payman Langroudi: Was that panky?

Raj Ahlowia: Well, there’s a reason for why I [00:44:15] was studying, which I’ll get to in a moment, and that that centres around a decision that he made. [00:44:20] My boss in 1995, in 19. So four years after [00:44:25] I started as a Viti in 1994 ish, the [00:44:30] government was starting to meddle with the NHS [00:44:35] contract and he didn’t like the changes, so he decided he was going to take [00:44:40] the practice private and me as an associate only four years out of dental school, didn’t [00:44:45] know what that meant. I thought it meant what the guys in Harley Street do, and [00:44:50] so I thought, I need to now learn something [00:44:55] new. So that triggered in 1994, 1995, [00:45:00] a a a a flip of a switch in my brain that [00:45:05] I have to learn how to do what Harley Street dentists do. So [00:45:10] I started a journey of travelling to the States to learn it because I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know about [00:45:15] courses in the UK.

Payman Langroudi: There weren’t many back then.

Raj Ahlowia: There weren’t many. So I [00:45:20] went west and I was spending so much of my [00:45:25] time travelling backwards and forwards to the States, it would become home [00:45:30] to three weeks of work and with the money that I’d made, go on another course. And, uh, travel [00:45:35] off to the States. And at the same time, my very good friend that I’d met at Viti, Hap [00:45:40] Gill, he was on a similar pathway because his practice was also doing the same thing they wanted. [00:45:45] They didn’t like the new 1995 contract. So he and I talked about where we were going to learn stuff, [00:45:50] and we were researching together, and he said, like, we’ve got to learn cosmetic [00:45:55] dentistry, we’ve got to learn functional occlusion and stuff like that. He said, why don’t you go to New York and learn [00:46:00] from Larry Rosenthal? I’m going to go to this institute in Florida [00:46:05] called the Pankey Institute, which teaches occlusion.

Payman Langroudi: Which was which were you with [00:46:10] Larry?

Raj Ahlowia: I went to learn with and he said, we’ll teach each other. So that [00:46:15] way we both have to do both. Yeah. So I went off to learned from Larry Rosenthal and, [00:46:20] um, that went on to off to learn occlusion and whatnot. And [00:46:25] Larry was teaching purely cosmetic dentistry. I [00:46:30] learned from Larry. Larry asked me, would I like to teach [00:46:35] for him? Because Larry was looking at the UK as an opportunity to tap the UK market, because [00:46:40] all these Brits suddenly coming across to America to learn from him. [00:46:45] So when Larry wanted to do his courses at the Eastman, he asked me, would I help [00:46:50] and teach? So I said yes. So then I was teaching [00:46:55] a bunch of other colleagues, some of them much older than me. How [00:47:00] to do verdantix. And [00:47:05] some of them ended up on this TV show, new TV show called Extreme Makeover. [00:47:10] People I’d literally just been teaching. But at the same time, I was learning [00:47:15] things from how about occlusion? That was making me question the order in which I [00:47:20] was doing things. And he said, look, you know, and this is what? Then [00:47:25] I shot off to Pankey to start learning at panki. I was learning at panki whilst also teaching for [00:47:30] Larry whilst also working at the practice. A few days, a few weeks, a month and [00:47:35] then taking time off and I was in a hurry to learn everything because what happened was [00:47:40] um, when I saw some of the people I’d just taught on the TV show, [00:47:45] I wrote to the producers of Extreme Makeover and I said, uh, I [00:47:50] watched your first season.

Raj Ahlowia: It was fantastic. But I’ve got a load of patients [00:47:55] who are not middle aged women who can’t afford this kind of dentistry but [00:48:00] need it. They don’t want it for cosmetic purposes. They need it because their mouths [00:48:05] are a wreck, and I can fix them. And I’m prepared to pay to do [00:48:10] all their work. And they’re young men in their 20s. And I think if you gave [00:48:15] me the opportunity to show what I can do for these young men, it will change the demographic of your [00:48:20] audience, because now men will watch the programme because you’re you’re targeting [00:48:25] middle aged women on your daytime TV, but young men or males in [00:48:30] general will be interested in your show. And also, the young women who are interested in young men will be interested in your [00:48:35] show. I sent this letter off to their registered address. Three different addresses I found. This [00:48:40] is all before email were the thing. And six months later [00:48:45] there was a phone call to the practice and I was with a patient and reception [00:48:50] came in and said, there’s a TV producer on the phone. I said, look, I’ll call [00:48:55] him back. And I knew straight away that it was them, and I knew why they’d be calling me because [00:49:00] they were interested in what I had to say. Anyway, I called the guy back and he goes, right, are you this [00:49:05] very arrogant young dentist telling me how he can change the demographic of my audience? And [00:49:10] I thought to myself, well, he rang me.

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t have to be embarrassed about what I wrote. [00:49:15] Um, I just said, yes, I am. And he said, very interesting [00:49:20] letter. We’ve had someone drop out from the show, and we have to [00:49:25] fill a certain number of shows for the TV station. Would [00:49:30] one of your young guys be interested in doing the show? And I said, I can ask and he said, look, [00:49:35] get them to borrow a video camera and make a cassette and send it to us because [00:49:40] we’re in a desperate hurry. So I got in touch with one of these young lads. He was a lovely young lad. I really liked [00:49:45] him, but he had severe rampant caries all over his mouth. And [00:49:50] I said, look, do you want me to sort out your teeth? Uh, I can do it and I can do it for [00:49:55] free. Um, but the one condition is you’re going to have to be on a TV show, and [00:50:00] you’re going to have to impress the TV show producers to get on the show. And he went, yeah, all [00:50:05] for it. And we went for it. And he made the tape. They liked him. They called him for an interview. [00:50:10] It was great, and they gave me the opportunity. So I did it and [00:50:15] he had a missing tooth and I thought, right, [00:50:20] look, this is a TV show that’s going to showcase the best of dentistry. [00:50:25]

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t want to be showing a bridge or a denture to fill this gap in his smile. We [00:50:30] need to show an implant. And I knew nothing about implants that wasn’t learning them [00:50:35] yet, but harp was. And I said to harp, I said, do you want to be on a TV show? [00:50:40] And he was like, yeah. And I said, well, I’ve got this gig. I’m going to be [00:50:45] on this TV show. This is what the case needs. Do you want to put an implant [00:50:50] in? And I’ll just say, I’ll work with you and I’ll get you on the show. They won’t be able to do anything about it because they’re [00:50:55] going to be rolling cameras. And we’ll introduce you and you do the implant. And [00:51:00] he goes, let’s do this. Let’s rent a practice in Harley Street, too, [00:51:05] because we knew that from the first season. They did a shot [00:51:10] of the street sign Harley Street. And we’re going to look like Harley Street [00:51:15] dentists. So we rented a practice in Harley Street and told the camera crew to come there with [00:51:20] the patient, who was my patient anyway, and hap put an implant [00:51:25] in, and it was the first implant ever shown on British TV. So [00:51:30] that’s our little claim to fame. Now, the format of the show is that you’ve got to finish [00:51:35] everything on this person within six weeks, and [00:51:40] they’re having all sorts done. They’re having, you know, the boob.

Payman Langroudi: Surgery.

Raj Ahlowia: Cosmetic surgery, [00:51:45] clothing, hair, makeup, all the rest of it, whatever. Um, so [00:51:50] there was a small window in which to do all the dentistry. And so I said, all right, we’ll [00:51:55] we’ll sleep the implant, bury it, and I’ll [00:52:00] put a conventional bridge over the top with temp bond. Um, and [00:52:05] as far as the world of TV is concerned, and what the editing will show [00:52:10] to the public is that there’s an implant in there, and that’s a fake tooth. But actually, [00:52:15] this young lad who’s now in his 40s, has got a bridge [00:52:20] sitting over a sleeping implant. Um, so with the magic of television, [00:52:25] we finished, uh, the makeover and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And did you only [00:52:30] do that one episode?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, no. No, no. After that, they put me on, um, season two [00:52:35] gave me lots more cases to do, including other young males, uh, that [00:52:40] I had. Sorry. Season three. And then, um, before season four, [00:52:45] they made me the guy that pre-screens the cases. The reason for that [00:52:50] is a case was given to me that couldn’t be done in six [00:52:55] weeks. Uh, at least I didn’t think it could be done. It was a full mouth rehab case. And a [00:53:00] woman who had been through the windscreen of her dad’s VW beetle when [00:53:05] she was six years old, and her face was completely smashed. When she was six, her [00:53:10] father broke both legs in the accident and he took [00:53:15] his broken daughter and crawled to the nearest house, called [00:53:20] the hospital. Luckily, there was a visiting [00:53:25] maxillofacial surgeon from America who [00:53:30] was teaching some lecture or something. He’d [00:53:35] been called over. So this guy, this visiting American surgeon, and this [00:53:40] team at the local hospital reconstructed this six year old girl’s face the [00:53:45] best they could. But unfortunately, when they put her maxilla back together, it [00:53:50] was set back relative to her mandible. So she had [00:53:55] a pseudo class three for entire life while she was growing up. And [00:54:00] when she was in her teens at school, someone opened a door into her face [00:54:05] and smashed her anterior teeth in. So she had this bridgework as well. That was in a [00:54:10] pseudo class three, so it was all getting smashed up.

Raj Ahlowia: Now Her main deal was [00:54:15] that her nose, the tip of her nose, was set back behind where, [00:54:20] you know, her cheekbones ought to be, because her maxilla was so caved in and [00:54:25] she was accepted for the TV show. And the main deal that she was going to have was they were going [00:54:30] to do a boob job, and at the same time, they were going to take a rib and reconstruct her nose [00:54:35] cartilage with this rib and bring her nose forward. But there [00:54:40] was no, um, uh, um, provision made to do [00:54:45] anything about her maxilla being set back. And this smashed up dentistry from this [00:54:50] weird pseudo class three occlusion, and it got assigned to me. I [00:54:55] was, at the time, rapidly crash, coursing through [00:55:00] everything Pankey could teach because I was now a TV [00:55:05] dentist. I could do all the cosmetic stuff. I knew all that, hands down, [00:55:10] but it It was the wrong thing to learn first. What you really need to understand [00:55:15] is function first. And here was a case which had fundamentally got a functional [00:55:20] problem in the arrangement of maxilla to mandible. And I could [00:55:25] see that when it was brought to me. And they bring you the patient with [00:55:30] the camera crew and expect you to diagnose and treatment plan under the lights [00:55:35] and camera and everything rolling there and then and complete the case within [00:55:40] that six week window.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy isn’t it?

Raj Ahlowia: It’s crazy. It’s absolutely insane. [00:55:45] And you know, I didn’t realise before what I’d signed [00:55:50] up for. And now, if it was all veneer, it’s fine. You can kind of get away with it. But here was a [00:55:55] case that should never have been accepted. Yeah. And I said, after examining and taking all the pictures [00:56:00] and taking impressions and everything, I was thinking, how am I going to do this [00:56:05] case in six weeks? And I said, they’d shot all that. And then I [00:56:10] said to the producer, I said, you know, I don’t think this case can be done. Who? [00:56:15] Who do you not have someone approving these cases? And it was [00:56:20] a very well-known dentist at the time who had approved it. And I said, look, there’s [00:56:25] there’s fundamentally only a couple of ways this can be done. Her [00:56:30] jaw needs to be broken and brought back into position. It should be, which means it needs a full [00:56:35] class three osteotomy and the maxilla bringing forward at least a centimetre. I said, I [00:56:40] can’t do that, but if someone can do that and wire it and pin it or plate [00:56:45] it there, I can at least get the dentistry done and temporised to [00:56:50] look good. But fundamentally that that sort of class three has [00:56:55] got to be corrected. I said, who’s the guy doing the nose job? And [00:57:00] they said, oh, it’s this cosmetic surgeon in somewhere [00:57:05] in Kent. I said, okay, can you give me his number? And they said, yeah, so they’re there.

Raj Ahlowia: I [00:57:10] called from the practice reception and I got this guy on the phone and I said, listen, I’m, I hear you’re [00:57:15] the guy going to be doing the boob job and the nose job for this particular case, for the Extreme Makeover show. [00:57:20] He goes, yeah. I said, I’m the dentist on the case. And this lady’s, [00:57:25] um, got a class three malocclusion, but it’s a pseudo class three because a [00:57:30] maxilla is set smashed in. That’s why you’re doing the nose thing. He goes, [00:57:35] yeah. I said, any chance while you’re doing the nose job, you can do a Le four class [00:57:40] three osteotomy and bring a maxilla forward? I thought, he’s a plastic [00:57:45] surgeon. He’ll be able to do this. And if you pin it or screw it, plate it. Then [00:57:50] I can get the dentistry done afterwards, and it won’t be finished. But I’ll finish it after the camera crew go. [00:57:55] Um, and the patient would be okay with that coming back to me after the six weeks thing. [00:58:00] And he says, what do you want me to do? I said, a Le four class three osteotomy. [00:58:05] Bring a maxilla forward one centimetre and he goes, mate, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I just [00:58:10] do tits and noses. I was like, oh God, all right. So [00:58:15] I said to the producer, um, or the director. And on the day he was [00:58:20] there, I said, look, you need to call the guy who approved this case because I don’t know what to do.

Raj Ahlowia: I [00:58:25] said, next week I’m going off to meet my mentors in America. I [00:58:30] was doing another course at Pankey. I said, I’ve got everything I need for the case. [00:58:35] All the photographs, moulds, articulation, Facebook, everything. I’ll take [00:58:40] the case out there and see if they’ve got any ideas and if they can come up with a plan with me, then [00:58:45] maybe I can do it. But you need to talk to this other guy. So they rang this guy [00:58:50] up. I won’t name him. And he was like, oh yeah, I’ll take the case, bring your camera [00:58:55] crew over. I’ll snatch one episode off Raj and I’ll do it. And [00:59:00] so they went there with the camera crew And he looked at it and [00:59:05] then he realised it’s a mess and it can’t be done. [00:59:10] And he said to the patient with the cameras rolling, so here’s what we’re going to do. [00:59:15] We’re going to extract all your top teeth and we’re going to make you this amazing denture. [00:59:20] Now first of all, well, how is that television [00:59:25] quality? High level dentistry. It [00:59:30] isn’t. It isn’t the best of at the time, but [00:59:35] worse. The patient freaked out. And the patient went nuts and said, [00:59:40] there is no way I am letting that guy take my teeth out. I would rather be off [00:59:45] the show. So now the producers are on my case again, and they were like, right, [00:59:50] you’ve screwed us over because this woman is about to walk and we’re now short [00:59:55] a case for the for the episode.

Raj Ahlowia: We can’t get anybody in a hurry. And [01:00:00] I said, look. Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Whoa. I didn’t approve her for the show while [01:00:05] I was at a pancake. I waxed it up, and my mentors at Pankey [01:00:10] were looking at this articulation, and they were like, you’re seriously gonna take [01:00:15] this case? And I was like, yeah, if I protrude all the uppers [01:00:20] in the anterior segment and retro clean all the lows in the [01:00:25] lower anterior, I can get this into a class one relationship [01:00:30] from where she is. And they were looking at me like I’m nuts. [01:00:35] And I’m like, I’ve got to do this case because this for the TV show. And it ended [01:00:40] up being a 30 unit case to do it. Full [01:00:45] mouth rehab. And if there’s one case I regret [01:00:50] ever having taken on, it’s that one. But I pulled it off and [01:00:55] the woman was over the moon. Her family were over the moon. It looked incredible. [01:01:00] Her mother met me on the reveal day and said she [01:01:05] looks $1 million. Her husband met me and was shaking my hand and thanking me and [01:01:10] saying, how much would this have cost if we’d had done this? And I said, well, it’s about £40,000. [01:01:15] You know, to do this kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Pay, you.

Raj Ahlowia: Know, just I, [01:01:20] I said to these guys, I said, look, I’m going to do you a favour. I will do this for [01:01:25] free. That way it’s not going to cost you because I understand I’m going to get the exposure and this is going [01:01:30] to be the best marketing I can ever do for myself.

Payman Langroudi: Did your clinic go berserk? [01:01:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Yes it did. By all. In all the wrong ways. Oh, I was getting patients [01:01:40] from all over the world. I mean, I had patients [01:01:45] come from the Caribbean, from India, from [01:01:50] all over Europe. They’d seen me on the TV show. Weirdly, it was aired in [01:01:55] India and Australia. I don’t know how my cousins and uncles and aunties. So and, you know, and, [01:02:00] um. What I realised very [01:02:05] quickly was there’s two kinds of patients. The patients that I had [01:02:10] given to the show were patients who needed the dentistry. [01:02:15] They never wanted it. They had disease and [01:02:20] they were. And this lady who had the smashed up face that she never wanted to go [01:02:25] through the windscreen of a car, she needed the dental rehabilitation. She needed [01:02:30] the reconstruction of her nose. She didn’t want it. And those kind [01:02:35] of patients are incredibly grateful for what [01:02:40] you can do if you know how to do it. And even the ones who [01:02:45] come and need that kind of work and pay me for it, they understand the commitment [01:02:50] that they’re putting not only in time, um, in pain and suffering, going through [01:02:55] these treatments the cost. They understand all of that [01:03:00] and they appreciate it all. And at the end of it, they’re grateful. So those patients needed [01:03:05] it but never wanted, never wanted it. The [01:03:10] patient who wants cosmetic dentistry generally doesn’t need it. [01:03:15] They come because they want an outcome. Obviously there were those that did also. [01:03:20] But when you when when you have that kind of marketing that attracts [01:03:25] patient to the cosmetic element, the end outcome, the cosmetic element, [01:03:30] they have no concept of what how much dentistry it’s going to actually [01:03:35] be, how much suffering and pain and discomfort they’re going to have to go through to [01:03:40] achieve it.

Raj Ahlowia: And they’re not prepared for that. So they suffer more when [01:03:45] they have to endure it than the person who’s prepared for it. And they certainly don’t appreciate [01:03:50] how much it’s going to cost. There were some of them would would say, but [01:03:55] it only took you half an hour on the telly and it got no clue. They were watching a TV programme [01:04:00] and they see it’s done in half an hour, but then they think that that’s how long it takes in reality. I [01:04:05] mean, you know, there’s a there’s a level of ignorance that you expect from patients, but there’s another [01:04:10] level of ignorance beyond that. Some patients would, would contact [01:04:15] me, you know, with, with in their head. So I started to recognise very quickly [01:04:20] the type of patients I preferred treating in my practice now, still [01:04:25] working in Biggleswade in a humbly bubbly little general practice. That was [01:04:30] the fully all private practice in town, which was also [01:04:35] a new concept for the local community that, you know, they’re going to have to pay privately. So we lost a lot [01:04:40] of our NHS patients who just literally didn’t want to pay privately, but we kept a lot of patients [01:04:45] who were loyal to us, and that was great. But I was also also on TV. [01:04:50] I never marketed what I was doing on TV to my patients at [01:04:55] the general practice. If they just needed a filling and a cleaner polish, I just did a filling and a [01:05:00] cleaner polish. They discovered that I was doing this other stuff on TV, [01:05:05] and if they asked me about it and they wanted it, I would talk to them about [01:05:10] it and offer it to them.

Raj Ahlowia: But I was turning down more patients than I was [01:05:15] accepting to treat because they didn’t need it. And I was explaining to them that you don’t need it. I mean, I had [01:05:20] one patient who I’ve known him since he was a kid. He’s been BAFTA nominated as an actor [01:05:25] now, and he came to me in his 20s about cosmetic dentistry and I said, look, you’re [01:05:30] a character actor. If I do all this beautiful cosmetic [01:05:35] dentistry on you, it’s going to change the roles that you’ll be suitable [01:05:40] for. And even casting directors are going to look at your teeth and go, well, that’s a mismatch to the characters. [01:05:45] I said, think of people like Steve Buscemi. Steve Buscemi has got teeth that are all over the place. If [01:05:50] you suddenly gave him perfect, you know, Hollywood [01:05:55] makeover dentistry. He’s going to not look the [01:06:00] part for the characters he plays. And you’re that level of actor. So [01:06:05] he said, great, let’s just do a clean and a polish. I went, fantastic. So I turned down, [01:06:10] you know, £20,000 makeover from a Hollywood, you know, A-list actor [01:06:15] who is in that kind of movies. I turned down doing 20,000 [01:06:20] because I’ve known him since he’s a kid, and I know it’s wrong for him and he doesn’t need that. [01:06:25] He might have wanted it, but he doesn’t need it. And so I turned down. [01:06:30] I turned down a lot of work because I preferred being the humbly bumbling [01:06:35] general dentist. But I knew that if a patient needed that, [01:06:40] I had the ability.

Payman Langroudi: But do you agree that it’s not your decision? It’s the patient’s decision. You know, like in [01:06:45] in terms of consent, I mean, unless you’re not consenting.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah I. [01:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do.

Raj Ahlowia: And but I also know I don’t have to do the [01:06:55] dentistry that they want. Yeah, there’s plenty of other dentists out there who can do it. So [01:07:00] there was very few big cosmetic cases that I took [01:07:05] on of patients that I didn’t know, patients of my own who needed it [01:07:10] and wanted it. Great.

Payman Langroudi: But didn’t the practice get flooded with patients because of the TV? [01:07:15] Yeah. So you turn most of those down, did you?

Raj Ahlowia: A lot. I took I took on some, but [01:07:20] I would field them. By this time. Email was now a thing. I would field [01:07:25] them via email and they were all over the place. And I would meet them sometimes in cafes, restaurants, hotels [01:07:30] where I was lecturing. Um, there was one I remember, uh, it was, um, [01:07:35] a young girl who had, um, uh, amelogenesis [01:07:40] imperfecta. So all these tiny, diminutive teeth. And, [01:07:45] uh, She was somewhere up in Liverpool and [01:07:50] I was going up to Manchester for something. And I contacted a really, [01:07:55] really good friend of mine who worked in Manchester, and I said, listen, do you mind if I examine this girl [01:08:00] at your practice? Sit in with me. And, um, so we [01:08:05] met up at this. Sorry, my phone’s ringing stopped. Um, [01:08:10] so we met up at his practice. Patient came over and he was sitting [01:08:15] with me, and we examined her. And it was a very clear case of amelogenesis imperfecta. So there’s all these dentine [01:08:20] shapes with no enamel on top. And I said, well, you know, none of [01:08:25] these teeth need prepping. All they need is the right shape enamel [01:08:30] putting on top. This would be a slam dunk case for someone with a cerec machine. [01:08:35] And I said, well, my colleague here, he’s a brilliant dentist and he’s [01:08:40] very versed in cerec. Um, why don’t you just bring your daughter to see [01:08:45] him. So I gave another £20,000 worth case away to my friend [01:08:50] because the patient’s right there. He can come from Liverpool to Manchester very easily. So, [01:08:55] you know, there were cases that needed needed help. [01:09:00] It wasn’t a case of wanting just cosmetics. So I would [01:09:05] filter the cases and I would talk to the ones that needed the dentistry and helped them [01:09:10] either with a referral to somebody more local to them, or I’d do it myself.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:09:15] a bit strange for a cosmetic dentist to be saying this.

Raj Ahlowia: But why not a cosmetic dentist? Yeah, I hate that label. Yeah, [01:09:20] I walked away from.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I wouldn’t characterise you as a [01:09:25] cosmetic dentist.

Raj Ahlowia: I walked away from that side of dentistry right in the early stages of the bacd. [01:09:30] Because. Because fundamentally.

Payman Langroudi: Occlusion. Occlusion expert.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s more like [01:09:35] it. Because to me, that is fundamentally overarching, [01:09:40] um, the cosmetic side is what [01:09:45] the patient wants it to look like at the end. So if there’s if there’s a full [01:09:50] mouth rehabilitation case to be done. If you don’t [01:09:55] make it cosmetically pleasing, in the end, the patient’s unhappy. [01:10:00] You could have done the best implant work. The best grafting work. [01:10:05] Sinus lifts all the perio preparation, temporary ization for [01:10:10] six months or whatever. Planning and got it all functionally [01:10:15] pristine. But if it doesn’t look nice, the [01:10:20] patient’s going to complain about that. So you have to understand cosmetics [01:10:25] as part of the full mouth rehabilitation learning [01:10:30] process. But beyond the cosmetics, the one thing that has to be [01:10:35] perfect or as close to perfect as you can get it or has to be right for that [01:10:40] patient is the function, because if the function is wrong, it doesn’t matter how [01:10:45] good you got that cosmetic end result, they’re going to smash it to pieces. Now they’re not all going [01:10:50] to smash it to pieces. But what I what I discovered as I was doing a lot of these cases was [01:10:55] when I was looking at what has caused this patient to get this way. [01:11:00]

Raj Ahlowia: There was a huge amount of them that the disease [01:11:05] process was a functional problem. So they were smashing their own teeth up because [01:11:10] of their own function or the function that had been given [01:11:15] to them on previous dentistry, and they were breaking it apart like the woman with the bridge in [01:11:20] a pseudo class three, that she was just shattering all the enamel off it, you know. So, so [01:11:25] where there was a functional element in the, um, [01:11:30] aetiology, you have to factor [01:11:35] that their function if you don’t get it right for them if, [01:11:40] say, they’re a power function or whatever, if you don’t get it right for them, they’re just going to destroy [01:11:45] your dentistry too. And all dentistry is ultimately [01:11:50] going to get destroyed. You will never get it perfect. And in a way that it’s indestructible. [01:11:55] Um, so the most dentistry you’ll do in your career if you’re in a practice [01:12:00] like I was for my entire career from 33 years. You’re the [01:12:05] the most dentistry you’re going to do is repairs on your own work.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s all going to come back [01:12:10] needing to be done. Because one of the things I said to my students is none of us [01:12:15] in dentistry are as good as the dentist in the sky, and none of us have [01:12:20] the materials of Mother Nature, that big dentist in the sky. His work and Mother Nature’s [01:12:25] work is the best dentistry there is. So if you can maintain it [01:12:30] without it having to ever be touched by one of your drills or lasers [01:12:35] or whatever tool To the show, you know, then that’s [01:12:40] the best that can be in the patient’s mouth. Now, it may not [01:12:45] be pretty and aligned beautifully, but there are ways you can help them with [01:12:50] that. But the moment you take a drill to it, or the moment it’s got caries or whatever, then [01:12:55] their work, that beautiful stuff that Mother Nature and the big dentist in the [01:13:00] sky gave them is ruined, right? And it will [01:13:05] always need maintenance. Your work is not going to last [01:13:10] that well as a pristine tooth.

Payman Langroudi: So your your sort [01:13:15] of interest in, in occlusion. Of course you did all of panki did [01:13:20] you. I mean, how did you end up being the seclusion guy? Did you just keep on following?

Raj Ahlowia: What [01:13:25] happened was I was in a hurry to learn all the party, and I was going out [01:13:30] to the States a lot. Yeah. And learning it all in a hurry, [01:13:35] back to back, sometimes doing back to back weeks. And the people [01:13:40] that were teaching me at Pankey there were only four. They were discussing the fact [01:13:45] that, you know, I was doing something that nobody had ever done before. They were telling me that the average Pankey [01:13:50] student spends a decade doing all of their continuum. They [01:13:55] do a module, they go and implement that module. Then they come back and learn the next bit [01:14:00] and they implement that bit. Yeah. And I said, well, then [01:14:05] they’re taking ten years to get the knowledge. The final bit. I said I need it now because [01:14:10] I’m doing it now. Yeah. And they knew I was doing it now because I was doing it on bloody TV show. [01:14:15] Yeah. So by the end of that year, they had [01:14:20] gotten to know me really well, much better than the other students that were coming [01:14:25] once a year. I was there ten weeks out of that [01:14:30] year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: At the end of it, They said, would you like to teach for us [01:14:35] as a visiting instructor? Because they could see I was already [01:14:40] doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And I said, yeah, I’d love to. So right [01:14:45] out of being, um, a student, I became a Pankey visiting [01:14:50] instructor.

Payman Langroudi: Which module did you teach?

Raj Ahlowia: I was teaching module [01:14:55] one, the very first one. But then very soon after that [01:15:00] they had a they had a group. It was 100 people strong. It was their [01:15:05] clinical board of education. And they put me on [01:15:10] that.

Payman Langroudi: Does it always work like that? Do you always end up teaching model one, module one and then work your way through the module? [01:15:15]

Raj Ahlowia: No, I don’t think it works like that. It comes down to what you’re most suited to. And, um, [01:15:20] so, uh, I just ended up teaching module one. [01:15:25] Yeah. Um, but I would also be invited to [01:15:30] come over every September for their big annual meeting of these hundred, where [01:15:35] they’d make decisions and decide how things were going to progress and [01:15:40] make changes and all the rest of it. Now, the problem with that was their weekend [01:15:45] always seemed to clash, or their week always seemed to clash with my birthday. So [01:15:50] I was always leaving my family on my birthday week to go and be [01:15:55] at a meeting with these hundred other people. And this [01:16:00] was right about the time where video conferencing over the internet [01:16:05] could have been done. And myself and two other Brits [01:16:10] were the only three non Americans having to fly over there, and it was just getting a bit much. [01:16:15] I was also at the same time as that was going on, I ended up being, um, [01:16:20] a visiting faculty instructor for Spear in Arizona. [01:16:25] Um, weirdly, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had you completed all of Speer as well.

Raj Ahlowia: No. [01:16:30] No. How I met Frank was a bit strange. I [01:16:35] was on this journey of learning. I completed All Panky, and I said to Gary [01:16:40] Durwood, who was my my mentor at panky. I said to Gary, you know, what’s [01:16:45] the next thing for me to learn? And he said, well, you know, you really ought to listen [01:16:50] to Frank Speer. I said, okay. Who’s he? I had no [01:16:55] clue who Frank was. And he said, look, Frank is coming to give [01:17:00] a one week masterclass here at panky. You should sign up for that. So [01:17:05] I took Gary at his word, and I signed up for the one week masterclass with. [01:17:10] With Frank at panky. And I had a favourite seat at panky. It [01:17:15] was in the corner at the back row. So I sat in my seat. Frank [01:17:20] comes in and didn’t know what he looked like before he turned up. And Frank’s method [01:17:25] when he’s got these little masterclasses in 24 of us and all 24 [01:17:30] were Pankey alumni, and almost all 24 were Pankey visiting instructors. [01:17:35] Because we’d got the early information that Frank is going to be doing this masterclass. [01:17:40] So we got in quick and booked it. And Frank’s methodology is [01:17:45] that he puts together the week based on what the people in [01:17:50] the masterclass want to learn. So he started with the first person in the front row and he said, why don’t [01:17:55] you tell me your name? Tell me a little bit about you and your dentistry, where you’re on your career, and tell [01:18:00] me, what’s the major burning issue that you’d like to see covered this week? And [01:18:05] it went through 23 people.

Raj Ahlowia: And then it got to me and I’d heard 23 [01:18:10] problems that I don’t really have. Gary was standing in the doorway over here. Frank’s [01:18:15] at the front. I’m in the corner at the back row. And I said to Frank, I said, listen, [01:18:20] Frank, I don’t know who you are. I’d never heard of you. It’s only [01:18:25] Gary over there. He told me I ought to do this week with you. I don’t really have any problems [01:18:30] with my dentistry, but I’m on a journey of learning. And Gary said, you’re the next person [01:18:35] in my journey that I should be listening to. But what I’ve just heard is 23 problems that I [01:18:40] don’t have. And I said, I don’t really have a [01:18:45] burning issue in dentistry. And if I gave you one, then all I’d get out of the week is the answer to one [01:18:50] problem. I said, Frank, what I’d rather hear from you is [01:18:55] how you think. I want to understand the process by which you solve problems. [01:19:00] Because if you’re the man, if you’re the man who knows all the answers to all the problems, [01:19:05] either you’ve got somebody, you go and ask or [01:19:10] you have to figure out the answers yourself. So I want to know next who [01:19:15] the people you ask the solutions to problems that you’ve got because they’re the [01:19:20] next person in my journey. Or you tell me how you solve problems. [01:19:25] And Frank never really been spoken to by anybody like that [01:19:30] before, I guess I don’t know.

Raj Ahlowia: But Gary knew what I’m like, and he was just giggling in the doorway [01:19:35] because he knew what I’m like. And I was very honest. I was just telling it straight like it is. You’re [01:19:40] a person in my journey, and then I want to know who you learn from. That’s the next person in my journey. And [01:19:45] so Frank said, well, you know, that’s really interesting. He goes, let me start by answering you. So [01:19:50] he started to tell a story about how he grew up with a father who was a mechanic. [01:19:55] And even as a small, very young toddler, his father would speak [01:20:00] to him like an adult when it came to the mechanics of cars. And he explained where [01:20:05] I’ve got a problem with the car, I’ve got to think through what could it be? And I have to [01:20:10] mentally imagine, rather than test it on the car. I’ve got to mentally imagine what will happen if I do [01:20:15] this or do this and figure out which is the best solution, and then do it. But do it in a way [01:20:20] that I don’t mess the car up more. And Frank said, you know, that’s how [01:20:25] I approach problems in dentistry. I think up solutions that are reversible and [01:20:30] measurable, testable. And then I execute the one that I think [01:20:35] is right. But I’ve also got a group of colleagues that I work with who I go to [01:20:40] to ask their opinions on complex cases. And as a group we come up with the best solution. [01:20:45] And it’s been about 45 minutes talking to the group about this [01:20:50] and answering my question.

Raj Ahlowia: He goes, is that good for you? And I said, yeah, great. He said, well, [01:20:55] you’ve got now an easy week. I said, yeah, I’ve got an easy week. Now at the end of that day, [01:21:00] they had planned that we were all going to go out to this Marina [01:21:05] with a lovely restaurant and have drinks. And Gary told [01:21:10] me, Frank, you won’t see Frank there. And I said, why not? He goes, well, Frank doesn’t like socialising [01:21:15] with his students. And I said, why? He goes, well, you know, they [01:21:20] constantly just keep bombarding him with questions. Now, I didn’t understand that until [01:21:25] I became a lecturer. And I understood that the students want from [01:21:30] you even in the break times, even in the lunch break. And Frank needed [01:21:35] to decompress after a long day like that. And he didn’t want to be socialising with the students, [01:21:40] so he never did. And I thought, oh, I’m not having that. So I [01:21:45] went up to him at the lunch break. I go, Frank, we’re going to have drinks. And I heard he’d like scotch. [01:21:50] We’re going to do some shots and scotch. And I badgered him and bombarded [01:21:55] him on just talking about whisky and nothing to do with dentistry at the lunch break. Completely [01:22:00] the opposite of what everybody else in the group was doing. And I said, Frank, you’re coming to this bloody [01:22:05] dinner tonight. Be sure of it. And I did that hand magic trick. [01:22:10] Him and Frank do it.

Payman Langroudi: Frank can do it.

Raj Ahlowia: And there was [01:22:15] another guy, another dentist called Larry Brewer. And Larry Brewer is an interesting guy because he’s also [01:22:20] a stage comedian. And Larry could do it. And Frank was like, he got really frustrated [01:22:25] and I got Larry Brewer can do it. I need to know how to do this trick. And we had a great [01:22:30] time, and it was nothing to do with dentistry. There was no talk about dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: When [01:22:35] you the way that you asked that question to Frank spear, [01:22:40] do you do that to be provocative or do you, [01:22:45] do you are you not self-aware in so much as I’m not.

Raj Ahlowia: Self-aware, I [01:22:50] just thought it’s natural.

Payman Langroudi: Or are you just just saying, like the brain mouth connection? You [01:22:55] just you just say, just say whatever’s in your head and you’re cool with it.

Raj Ahlowia: My dad was a very good communicator. [01:23:00] Yeah, he could read people, and he knew what the right thing [01:23:05] to say was to help people get somewhere. Now, that’s a nice talent to have. Yeah. [01:23:10] Um, I’m not quite as natural as my dad, but I’m quite [01:23:15] good at reading people because I’m good at reading faces, because I’m constantly looking at faces and I can read [01:23:20] their emotional state.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it was an amazing outcome there and then here because it’s Frank spear, it’s [01:23:25] America where you can kind of get away with this sort of thing.

Raj Ahlowia: What I figured was if [01:23:30] I’m just like every other student and I’m just badgering him about [01:23:35] dentistry, I’m just like every other student to him. Yeah, but if I come at him [01:23:40] another way because I wanted him to come and join us, I was like, I was surprised that he wasn’t going.

Payman Langroudi: No, I meant the initial question that [01:23:45] you know about.

Raj Ahlowia: Tell me how you learned how you solve problems. I want to [01:23:50] learn. No, that was genuinely what I wanted to know.

Payman Langroudi: You just wanted to know that.

Raj Ahlowia: That was because. [01:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: I guess it’s your one moment to talk in the events.

Raj Ahlowia: I had to give a reason [01:24:00] for what I wanted, why I was there, what I wanted to learn from Frank. [01:24:05] And honestly, Gary had begged him up like he’s the best dentist in the world. [01:24:10] And maybe he is right. And so I thought, well, if he is, [01:24:15] then he might be. He might not be. And if he isn’t, I want to know who above him he [01:24:20] goes to for advice. So he’s genuinely asking, thinking of him like another stepping stone in my [01:24:25] journey. And it was genuine. The question, and it was also genuine, that answering [01:24:30] the questions of 23 problems is interesting. That’s fine, but [01:24:35] how did you work out the answers is more interesting to me because I’m a problem [01:24:40] solver.

Payman Langroudi: Delegates delegates don’t want that. I mean, it’s the right way to teach, the right way to teach. [01:24:45] Definitely. But I find delegates want like a, B, c do this, do this, do [01:24:50] this. That’s okay. They want it. Cookie cutter.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s okay. And that’s okay. If you give them that [01:24:55] that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. If you don’t think it’s the right way to teach I think the right teach is what you’re saying. The thought [01:25:00] process. Right.

Raj Ahlowia: The thought processes. That’s that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Is that how you teach?

Raj Ahlowia: In a way. Yeah, yeah, [01:25:05] in a way.

Payman Langroudi: The thought process.

Raj Ahlowia: I tell my students, my thought processes [01:25:10] as I’m You know, telling them, you know, everything [01:25:15] that I teach in, in dentistry because my, my courses when I was teaching them were fully comprehensive. [01:25:20] I taught the function, but I also taught the aesthetics, I taught the communication, I [01:25:25] taught the photography, I taught about all the individual branches [01:25:30] of dentistry and how they all connect together. So my course, I often described it as [01:25:35] a jigsaw box cover. Everybody else’s course is a piece [01:25:40] in the box. Now you can go on one course and you’ve got one piece of the puzzle. [01:25:45] You can go another course, you’ve got another piece of the puzzle, but you don’t know how to connect them together unless [01:25:50] you’ve got the box cover and nobody gives you the box cover. So my course [01:25:55] was the jigsaw puzzle box cover. There’s all the components are there. I’m going to [01:26:00] show you how they all fit together.

Payman Langroudi: How long was it?

Raj Ahlowia: 44 hours.

Payman Langroudi: So what? Three, [01:26:05] four days?

Raj Ahlowia: Four days? 11 hours each. Now, when you’re teaching for 11 [01:26:10] hours. It’s tiring, but you’re not even stopping in the break [01:26:15] times because in the break times, they’re on you again. Yeah. Now, in [01:26:20] an 11 hour course, there’s going to be a few people, excuse me, who are nodding [01:26:25] off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And you can help them to come back in by because [01:26:30] it’s interactive. Posing a question to them to help them bring them back. You can see they’re they’re [01:26:35] flagging a bit or they’re not getting something a bit. But you as the teacher at [01:26:40] the front, you can’t take a break. You can’t flag. And I didn’t mind also [01:26:45] socialising because I know the students want that time with you. They want [01:26:50] to, um, talk about other things, but also about things [01:26:55] in dentistry that aren’t part of the course. Practice life, anything, whatever [01:27:00] it might be. Journey next person to talk to. So I would go out for dinner with them. And so [01:27:05] the thing never ended. It was, you know, till midnight, 1 a.m. sometimes, and then you’re [01:27:10] back the next morning, 8 a.m. you have to be sharp and you have to stay sharp. So I would do it in two [01:27:15] chunks of two days. And on the third day, on a Sunday, I would be dead. [01:27:20] I would be cramping because I’d been standing up all day and I’m talking [01:27:25] all day. My voice would be gone. But also the mental exhaustion [01:27:30] from having to stay focussed and concentrate because you don’t know what questions are going to fire at you. And it could be [01:27:35] anything in dentistry, because your course is about everything in dentistry, and [01:27:40] they might be struggling with an ortho element. They might be struggling with sinus [01:27:45] lift technique or, um, implant integration, or it doesn’t have to be just about function [01:27:50] or some concept of communication, photography, blah, blah blah. Whatever [01:27:55] it is, talk to them about it. Tell them your experiences.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the [01:28:00] best way to learn is to learn by looking at your own errors [01:28:05] the way you were would describe it, and not many people have the privilege of spending that many [01:28:10] years in one place. You’re right. Um, what were key moments, key [01:28:15] failures that you saw that kind of shifted your mindset and thought, I’ve got to do things differently, [01:28:20] or I should have.

Raj Ahlowia: There was certainly that case of the lady that went through the windshield. Yeah. [01:28:25] She was the case that made me realise about the difference between a cosmetic [01:28:30] patient and a patient in need. And I didn’t want to be a cosmetic dentist, [01:28:35] so I shied away from that label. I shied away from everything to do with cosmetic dentistry. [01:28:40] I was more interested in the functional and rehabilitative, rehabilitative, [01:28:45] rehabilitative type of dentistry. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:28:50] you see, for instance, the work that you’ve done, the Rosenthal type work come back stained [01:28:55] and, you know, chipped, maybe.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Yeah. And I would do whatever it needed to put [01:29:00] it right. Um, but luckily, because I was on such a rapid transition [01:29:05] within a couple of years.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t do that many.

Raj Ahlowia: There wasn’t that many. Yeah, there [01:29:10] wasn’t that many. Yeah. And because.

Payman Langroudi: The majority.

Raj Ahlowia: Of cases.

Payman Langroudi: The majority of the work [01:29:15] that you did over all these years, was it sort of the big cases were full mouth rehabs. [01:29:20]

Raj Ahlowia: 99% of the dentistry is bog standard check-up two fillings?

Payman Langroudi: No, but the big cases were [01:29:25] like full mouth rehab. That became a thing that.

Raj Ahlowia: Were full mouth [01:29:30] rehab cases. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have to replace those along the way as well?

Raj Ahlowia: Thankfully not too many.

Payman Langroudi: Weirdly, [01:29:35] bits here and there. Right. Like 1 or 2.

Raj Ahlowia: Interestingly, one of the first full mouth [01:29:40] rehab cases I did was on this incredibly [01:29:45] powerful businessman who, um, you know, he, [01:29:50] he, um, buys whole chains of shops and owns [01:29:55] them, and. He it’s interesting how he [01:30:00] became a patient. He was the first patient to contact the practice. After [01:30:05] I’d put an advert in our local village magazine about [01:30:10] implant dentistry, and he spent £40,000 on a full mouth rehab. [01:30:15] About. Oh, God. 20 odd years ago.

Payman Langroudi: When £40,000 was money. Yeah. [01:30:20] Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And interestingly, he never really came back [01:30:25] until a couple of weeks ago.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Raj Ahlowia: He’s come back because he [01:30:30] had fractured as a conia bridge and [01:30:35] it needed to be replaced. Everything else in his mouth was great. Just the bridge [01:30:40] needed replacing. I’m actually retired, but my associate is handling the case, [01:30:45] and she asked me to pop in and have a look and give her advice on because she didn’t [01:30:50] know what she was going to find underneath. And actually, when we looked at it underneath, the implants were great. [01:30:55] Bone levels were fantastic on the radiographs. Whoever had been going to has been looking [01:31:00] after it really well and he’s been looking after it really well. So it’s really nice to see one [01:31:05] of my first major, um, full mouth rehabs.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:31:10] you still mentor your associates?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, yeah, when they want it. Two of them were former students [01:31:15] who’d done my course. Um, one of them was a very good friend of one of them. [01:31:20] Um. Uh, since then, I’ve taken on an implantology who was [01:31:25] mentored by somebody that was my student 15 years ago. And he’s taken [01:31:30] over all of my implant work and is doing wonderful things. He’s very well known himself. [01:31:35] Um, I won’t name. I don’t embarrass people, but, uh, you know, he’s a big name in Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:31:40] could name him Prav.

Raj Ahlowia: Cairo. I mean, he’s he’s fantastic. When I, when I retired, I [01:31:45] was forced to retire. Um, I’ve got no feeling in my left hand. Oh, um, due to a [01:31:50] problem in my spine. In my neck. Um, so I’ve got a disc that is slipped [01:31:55] forwards, and it’s kinking my spinal cord. And there’s [01:32:00] separate, um, osteophytes on the the, um, uh, [01:32:05] vertebra. That is caused my arm to have [01:32:10] spasming lightning bolts of pain, and my hand has gone numb. So I’ve got [01:32:15] medication for, uh, the pain which suppresses the pain. It doesn’t [01:32:20] get rid of it, but it suppresses it. Um, but it does nothing for the numbness in my head. So this all happened [01:32:25] about a year ago, and I got in touch with Pav. Pav was in between [01:32:30] kind of, uh, jobs. Jobs he wasn’t. He was. He [01:32:35] was kind of looking for something new. And I said, look, this has happened to me. Would you mind stepping in and taking [01:32:40] over all my, uh, implant work? And I said to my associates, would you like to [01:32:45] take over all my patients? I split my patients between the associates. And I [01:32:50] spoke to all the patients that came in for six months individually and explained [01:32:55] that I’m retiring, and, um. All my associates are lovely, and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:33:00] does it psychologically leave you? I mean, okay, physically, you’ve got the problem with your hand and pain, but psychologically, [01:33:05] was it difficult stopping?

Raj Ahlowia: No. It’s like flipping a switch. I’m very good at that. I [01:33:10] can just flip a switch in my head. That’s it. The dentistry switch is off. I’m out. I’m done. [01:33:15] Don’t regret it, I. There’s nothing in my career I’ve regretted doing. [01:33:20] Um. Everything is. Do you miss it? No, no, I’ve got enough other [01:33:25] interests that I’ve now got time to explore and develop and indulge [01:33:30] in and enjoy. Um. It happened at a time where, um, [01:33:35] my mother needed, um, more 1 to 1 care. And [01:33:40] so my mum lives with me most of the years. Then from now. And then she goes and stays with my sister or my [01:33:45] brother gives me a little bit of a break, um, so I can take her to all the hospital appointments [01:33:50] that that was really useful, that it all happened at exactly the same time. Um, [01:33:55] so yeah, me and my mum hang out at home and I take her to her things and I go to my [01:34:00] hospital appointments and I indulge in my photography. I’ve seen photography. [01:34:05]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. I mean, I mean, obviously photography from what did it start with? Dental. And then.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, I mentioned [01:34:10] that I had a different first job, which was my summer job as a teenager when I was a kid. And, [01:34:15] um, all of my little friend group, when I was about 15 or [01:34:20] 16, um, they had little Saturday jobs and I thought, I’ll get a Saturday job, too. And the girls in [01:34:25] our little group all had Saturday jobs at Boots in Saint Albans. And it’s a big boot. And [01:34:30] back in the day it was like a proper department store. It sold [01:34:35] computers and cameras and all sorts. [01:34:40] And I applied for a job and I got the job and, [01:34:45] uh, they decided, what can they put a 16 year old geeky kid on? [01:34:50] I will put them on computers and cameras. This. I was more on the camera side than [01:34:55] the computer side, and I knew more about computers at that [01:35:00] time because I was one of those computer geeky teenagers and I knew all the computers, but I [01:35:05] ended up being put on cameras. And so at the age of 16 or 17, I had [01:35:10] to very rapidly learn everything I could about [01:35:15] all the different models of cameras that they had. They had all sorts of Nikon F1’s, [01:35:20] um, canon E1’s, minolta, um, all SLR, um, [01:35:25] uh, analogue. It was no digital back then, but they also had all the way down to the instamatics [01:35:30] and instamatics and the Polaroids. I remember Kodak instant cameras [01:35:35] at the time, and we used to take film and do processing, um.

Payman Langroudi: As [01:35:40] part of boots as part of the job.

Raj Ahlowia: But we had the full range of incredibly [01:35:45] expensive cameras that I had to learn.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s where it [01:35:50] started.

Raj Ahlowia: I learned. I learned what the differences were between them, what all the functions were, what [01:35:55] you know, f stops and ISO and shutter speeds, all that meant. And [01:36:00] so before I started at guys, I already already had [01:36:05] a very keen interest in photography and had a pretty expensive camera. [01:36:10] So at our freshers ball, I was the guy with an SLR [01:36:15] camera with a boom arm and a flashgun on it, taking pictures and throughout [01:36:20] predated dentistry. It predated dentistry and I.

Payman Langroudi: But then these projects that you’ve been doing, some [01:36:25] of them I saw like high end fashion type projects.

Raj Ahlowia: I’ve been doing that level [01:36:30] of photography for about a decade. I’ve been doing more of those now. Um, [01:36:35] actually, I was doing more of them before, but [01:36:40] because I’m looking after my mum a lot, I had more selective now, um, [01:36:45] of what I do, um, and what I arranged to do, what [01:36:50] I take on doing. But I get approached by a lot of aspiring models wanting [01:36:55] headshots and glamour shots. And again, I reject more than I accept [01:37:00] because I don’t have as much time. I do some Dental [01:37:05] practice photography, so headshots for practices and [01:37:10] and for their websites I’ll do photography. Um, yeah, I enjoy [01:37:15] that. Um, it’s not the only hobby I had throughout my career, but it’s [01:37:20] it’s one that I indulge a bit now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the other one?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh. Flying aeroplanes. [01:37:25] Remember?

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Have you got a pilot’s license?

Raj Ahlowia: I wanted to be an airline.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course, of course, of course.

Raj Ahlowia: My first [01:37:30] NHS paycheque. I think it was the first paycheque. I blew [01:37:35] it all on flying lessons. That’s. That’s a funny story. I was, um. Got [01:37:40] the job in Biggleswade. I was living [01:37:45] at home with my parents. It was September. I was sitting in the garden, one [01:37:50] of the last nice sunny days of summer. And this tiny little aeroplane [01:37:55] flew across the sky. It was a beautiful, pure blue sky. And [01:38:00] I had the local Saint Albans. If you’re from Saint Albans, Saint Albans, you [01:38:05] call it snowbirds. So I had the local snowbirds rag in front of me. I was flicking [01:38:10] through it and got to the, you know, little box ad pages, and there was this tiny little box [01:38:15] ad, and all it had was a graphic of a little plane, just like the one that had flown over. And [01:38:20] underneath it said trial flying lesson, £50 and a phone [01:38:25] number in Watford. Leavesden Aerodrome, which is now Warner [01:38:30] Brothers Studios, where they have the Harry Potter world. But back then it was [01:38:35] a a little local flying strip, uh, airstrip with [01:38:40] a flying club. So I rang this number and a Welsh guy. [01:38:45] Young Welsh guy picked up the phone and I said, I’ve just seen your advert in the Saint [01:38:50] Albans paper about flying lessons for £50. And he goes, yeah, I said, I’d [01:38:55] like to do that. And he said, okay, well we can probably fit you in in about three weeks [01:39:00] time, blah, blah, blah. I’ve got a date here. And I said, oh, um, I [01:39:05] was hoping to do it today. It’s such a lovely day, and I’ve just seen this little plane fly over.

Raj Ahlowia: And he goes, [01:39:10] well, um, can’t really do it today. I mean, the the planes get booked out [01:39:15] and there’s people on lessons and all the rest of it. Um, so we haven’t really got anything until, you know, a couple [01:39:20] of weeks time. I went, oh, okay, then let’s book it in. So we booked it in. Put the [01:39:25] phone down, came back out to the garden and sit with my mum. And, uh, another [01:39:30] little tiny plane flies over and I’m, like, itchy. [01:39:35] And, um, this is just how I am when I want to learn something. I’m itching to do it there and [01:39:40] then. So I picked up the phone. I rang him again, and I go, are you sure there’s [01:39:45] no way we can do it today? And he goes, look. Planes are coming back [01:39:50] and planes are going out. Planes coming back. If a plane comes back early before it’s booked [01:39:55] to go out again, then there’s an opportunity that we might have 20 minutes, half an hour to do it. But you’re [01:40:00] going to have to come over here and sit and wait. If you’re prepared to do that, then okay. But I can’t guarantee [01:40:05] that a window will open up. But if that’s okay with you, that’s okay with you. So I [01:40:10] said, fine. Yeah, I’ll shoot over. So we lived only about a ten minute drive away from Saint Albans [01:40:15] to Watford. It’s only about ten minutes. Uh, back then, when the traffic wasn’t as bad as it is now, and [01:40:20] I shot down to Leavesden and, um, met this guy. Vaughn Jeffries [01:40:25] was his name.

Raj Ahlowia: And he said, right. Well, funnily enough, since you called, we’ve had on the [01:40:30] radio that someone’s coming back and the plane they’re bringing back is not due to go out again for [01:40:35] about 45 minutes. So we’ve got a window, but before we’ll do a little bit of [01:40:40] ground school. So we’re going to classroom. Is that okay with you? And then when the plane comes in, uh, we’ll [01:40:45] take it off in about 15 minutes or so. I said great. So took me into little [01:40:50] classroom, and there’s a blackboard and a little model wooden aeroplane [01:40:55] with ailerons and rudder and all the rest of it. And, uh, he starts [01:41:00] talking to me about what ailerons do and the, you know, profile [01:41:05] of a wing and how it creates lift. And I just stopped smirking. And [01:41:10] he looks at me and he goes, is something funny? And I said, no, [01:41:15] it’s just that, you know, you’re teaching me all this baby stuff. And [01:41:20] he goes, you mean baby stuff? I said, well, I kind of knew all this when I was four years old. [01:41:25] And he goes, you knew this when you were four years old. And I said, well, yeah. And [01:41:30] he goes, all right, well explain to me how lift works. I explained about the air pressures alone. My [01:41:35] parents indulged everything I had an interest in and [01:41:40] from four years old they used to buy me books and magazines about aviation. Loved [01:41:45] it. Didn’t have comics. I had books about planes and wings [01:41:50] magazine was a thing, right? So I would read these things avidly from cover to cover, [01:41:55] even though I didn’t like reading something I was interested in and passionate about.

Raj Ahlowia: Knew everything [01:42:00] about it. And I’d read about famous pilots and, you [01:42:05] know, Douglas Bader movies. I’d love watching all that stuff. Dam Busters um, [01:42:10] one of my favourite books was a book called samurai, which wasn’t about samurai. It was about a guy called Saburo Sakai, who [01:42:15] was the top fighter pilot for Japan during World War Two. I mean, he blew [01:42:20] everybody else away in World War Two. He was the number one ace pilot, but his life [01:42:25] story and journey was was fascinating. So I had a pilot mentality, and [01:42:30] I’m looking at what he’s showing this little model aeroplane thinking it’s all baby stuff. So he goes, all right, [01:42:35] fine, let’s go. So he grabbed the the keys to the plane and he taxied it out [01:42:40] to the end of the runway, and he goes, all right, superstar, smart ass. What are you going to do to take off? [01:42:45] He goes, you’re in control. And I went, what? And he goes, you know everything. [01:42:50] What do you do? And I said, well, full power. Keep [01:42:55] it in a straight line and it will do it. It’ll take off. And he goes, okay, [01:43:00] go on then. There’s your throttle. So I said, really? He goes, yeah, do it. So I push the throttle [01:43:05] full forward. He said, you don’t worry about keeping a straight line, I’ll do that. And we’re hurtling [01:43:10] down the runway and without doing anything, an aeroplane will. When it hits [01:43:15] the right airspeed, you don’t have to pull back on the yoke or anything. It will lift off.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:43:20] runway needs to be long enough to get to that speed.

Raj Ahlowia: With [01:43:25] most aircraft. They’re going to accelerate to that speed anyway when you put it full [01:43:30] throttle. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be on the runway anyway. And you do not need to pull back on the yoke. [01:43:35] It will take off regardless. And then you pull back on the yoke [01:43:40] to get more height. You’re going to have the airspeed anyway to get lift. [01:43:45] And as you pull back, your airspeed is going to actually drop because [01:43:50] you’re pulling back. But you’re getting lift more lift in. In exchange for [01:43:55] that. So the aeroplane takes off and we go flying for about half an hour and [01:44:00] we get up over 2000ft. And there is a wispy [01:44:05] layer of cloud beneath us. And you know, those romantic [01:44:10] images of a Scottish loch with a mist on the surface in the early [01:44:15] morning like milk? That’s how the cloud was, that we [01:44:20] were above, and the air above that layer was so [01:44:25] delicate and smooth. We [01:44:30] were floating on this milk bed. But the engine note [01:44:35] becomes a whisper when there’s less air. Buffett and [01:44:40] I just turned to Vaughn, and I said, Vaughn, I was born to fly. [01:44:45] We came back down and I said to Vaughn, so, you know, how much does it cost [01:44:50] to learn to fly? And he goes, well, um, it’s not about how much it cost to learn to fly.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s [01:44:55] you’ve got to do 50 hours of flight time. You’ve got to pass exams in [01:45:00] radio telephony and bunch of other exams along the way. Um, [01:45:05] that there are certain books you’ve got to read. Um, but all in all, basically [01:45:10] you’re paying for about 50 hours of flight time and tuition and buy a bunch of books and [01:45:15] these exams. And I said, so how much is an hour’s lesson? He told me it was about £100, [01:45:20] and at the time. So I said, okay, so 50 times 100 is 5000. [01:45:25] He goes, yeah, got my chequebook out. I wrote a check for £5,000. [01:45:30] And I said, who do I make it out to? And Vaughn’s looking at me from [01:45:35] the other side of the desk, and he’s like, he literally said to me, who are you? [01:45:40] Nobody does this. And I said, why? I asked you how [01:45:45] much it cost to fly. You told me it’s going to take 50 hours. [01:45:50] There’s 50 hours worth of money. I want you to teach me to fly. And for the next [01:45:55] year, because of the weather in the UK is so crappy. I would go to Leavesden every [01:46:00] weekend, Saturday and Sunday after doing five days a week at work. And [01:46:05] me and Vaughn would hang out and go flying. And he taught me to fly. And, [01:46:10] uh.

Payman Langroudi: And how how how how far did you take flying? Did [01:46:15] you. Is it something you do all the time?

Raj Ahlowia: You know, when I was out teaching for Larry once in Florida, [01:46:20] the following week, I’d booked to go learn how to do loop de loop for [01:46:25] stunt flying, because I was just on a journey of discovery, not only with the dentistry [01:46:30] but also with the flying. I was doing instrument meteorological conditions and I had an American license [01:46:35] as well. And I was, yeah, just enjoying flying all [01:46:40] over the place. So I’d spend a week teaching at Pankey and then go hire a plane and fly to the Bahamas.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:46:45]

Raj Ahlowia: You know, or go join, um, the Miami Municipal [01:46:50] Dade County Flying Club, rent their planes and go down to the Everglades [01:46:55] or down to Key West and hang out with all the boozers, uh, you know, [01:47:00] uh, waiting for their next cocktail.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say what are the most memorable [01:47:05] parts of this journey? Like, what’s the most memorable lecture you went to? What’s what [01:47:10] comes to mind when I say that?

Raj Ahlowia: Most memorable lecture. Um. [01:47:15] Yeah. [01:47:20] That very first day at Pankey, one of the first people [01:47:25] to speak at Pankey. To all the all students after they’ve done the same thing as Frank, [01:47:30] spoken to all of us and asked us to go around what we were, what we’re about. And when it came to me [01:47:35] in my turn, I said, oh yeah, I’m working the UK. I’m on this TV show called Extreme Makeover, [01:47:40] and that was already blown away. Everybody else. And they’re like, who’s this guy? Right? [01:47:45] He’s already on TV. What’s he doing here? And then the [01:47:50] first speaker spoke and, um, it was Steve Ratcliffe. He [01:47:55] was one of the four panky instructors, and he ended up going and teaching for Frank as [01:48:00] well. Um, and Steve kind of saw in me [01:48:05] a younger version of himself, I’m absolutely, absolutely convinced of this, getting to know Steve [01:48:10] as a friend over the years. Uh, he saw in me the same passion [01:48:15] for learning, but also, uh, in a way, uh, a search [01:48:20] for validation that he also had gone through. And, um, he [01:48:25] Whilst he was talking to the rest of the class, he put his hand on my shoulder and [01:48:30] he said these words. He said, you know, wherever you are in your journey in [01:48:35] dentistry, that’s brilliant, but you don’t yet know what [01:48:40] you don’t yet know.

Raj Ahlowia: Now that one [01:48:45] sentence stuck with me forever. And Frank [01:48:50] Steve was quoting somebody else that he’d heard that [01:48:55] from. Okay. And that person had heard it from somebody else and somebody else. Now, [01:49:00] over the years, teaching in the UK, I’ve always said that phrase, you don’t yet know or you don’t yet know, [01:49:05] but I’ve also heard many people repeat it, but they get it ever [01:49:10] so slightly wrong. They say you don’t know what you don’t [01:49:15] know. Now there’s a subtle difference. If I, as [01:49:20] a teacher, say to you Payman. You [01:49:25] don’t know what you don’t know. In a way, I’m belittling [01:49:30] you because I’m telling you, you don’t know something. But if, as a [01:49:35] teacher, I say with love, with a hand on your shoulder, you don’t yet [01:49:40] know what you don’t yet know, I am acknowledging that you are [01:49:45] going to discover this, and you are going to know these things, and you’re going to [01:49:50] learn these things, and I’m going to be there to help you and show you some stuff. I’m [01:49:55] acknowledging your capacity as a student, and my love for you and my passion to teach [01:50:00] you and help you discover this stuff. It’s different, right? So [01:50:05] I correct those people that say, you don’t know what you don’t know. I say, no, no, you [01:50:10] don’t yet know what you don’t yet know.

Payman Langroudi: Anthony Robbins talks about that. What’s [01:50:15] not perfect yet? Yeah. Rather than what’s the problem. Right. And [01:50:20] and Apparently in NLP that’s a big thing. Like why is your brain totally [01:50:25] different?

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t know if it’s a funny thing I learned to back in the day. Do [01:50:30] you know who coined the phrase NLP first NLP? Where does what does NLP [01:50:35] stand for?

Payman Langroudi: Neuro linguistic programming, right.

Raj Ahlowia: Where does neuro neuro linguistic? Who said those [01:50:40] words first? Who wrote them first in a book? It’s a guy called Richard Bandler. [01:50:45] Now, before I graduated as a dentist at [01:50:50] guy’s, they used to have these evening lectures [01:50:55] for the dental society once a month or so. And one, [01:51:00] one time it was, uh, a former guy’s man who [01:51:05] used to do hypnosis on his patients, and he used to teach [01:51:10] midwives and nurses how to do hypnosis to help, [01:51:15] um, expecting mothers. And he was giving a talk about [01:51:20] this passion. Weirdly, there was also a dentist called Mike Portelli, [01:51:25] who was a famous fashion photographer, and I went to his evening thing because I found that fascinating, too, because it was my [01:51:30] interest was photography. But anyway, this dentist who came to talk about hypnosis [01:51:35] invited members of the assembled guys crowd [01:51:40] if they wanted to come down on stage and give it a try. And I went down to give it a try, and [01:51:45] he gave us a few things to to try. And at the end of it, [01:51:50] he pulled me aside and he goes, you know, you’ve got, um, a natural ability [01:51:55] for this is something to do with the way you talk. Um, he said, you’re [01:52:00] you’re a natural. That’s why it was working for you. When you’re doing this, you should study this more. He [01:52:05] goes, are you interested? And I said, yeah, I am. So he started [01:52:10] me on a journey before I’d finished dentistry of learning hypnotherapy. And [01:52:15] I went to there was a very popular bookstore in um [01:52:20] um, near Kentish Town that used to sell those books, [01:52:25] and I went and bought loads of them.

Raj Ahlowia: And while I was there, I bumped into somebody also [01:52:30] flicking through the hypnosis section, a lady, and we just got chatting and [01:52:35] she said, oh, you want to learn from this and this and this and these books? [01:52:40] And she said, I’m doing a course and I can send you all my notes. So I said, oh, [01:52:45] great, are you learning from? And she was learning from a well-known British, um, [01:52:50] hypnotist. And I knocked on his door. He wasn’t that [01:52:55] far away. And I said, oh, I was hoping to pick your brains about where [01:53:00] I should learn. And he said, well, you should learn about NLP. Um, [01:53:05] and it’s from a guy called Richard Bandler. Get his books. So [01:53:10] I got all his books, and I joined a mailing list for people interested that this [01:53:15] bookstore did. Extorted, and they sent me a thing that said that Richard Bandler was going to be doing [01:53:20] a two week masterclass on NLP in [01:53:25] London. Did I want to sign up? I signed up straight away. In [01:53:30] my class for those two weeks was a guy called [01:53:35] Paul McKenna, who is now considered one of the, you know, most [01:53:40] famous hypnotists in UK. He bunked off most of the classes. Funnily enough, he didn’t turn up to everything, [01:53:45] but I did. And um, again, you know, it’s like seeking [01:53:50] the best of the best in anything. Um, and so I eventually got to Richard Bandler, [01:53:55] who, who wrote the book on NLP.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you practice NLP [01:54:00] on your patients?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, I did, um, I did extractions under hypnosis. I’ve done root [01:54:05] canal under hypnosis. Not often. Uh, I mean, I remember when I.

Payman Langroudi: Was a nervous [01:54:10] patient or something.

Raj Ahlowia: The very first time I did it, I was still very young. I remember I learned NLP and I had [01:54:15] a masters from Richard. It wasn’t a real master’s but Richard’s master’s in mastery [01:54:20] of NLP. Before I graduated as a dentist and then as a Viti, [01:54:25] I had to do an extraction on. I think it was 13 or 14 year old, [01:54:30] and he was incredibly needle phobic. And I just said to the [01:54:35] mother, well, you know, would you like to try doing it under hypnosis? And [01:54:40] the kid said, yeah, okay. And the mother went, okay. And so I [01:54:45] induced the kid and without any anaesthesia, extracted [01:54:50] his teeth. Now the mother was sort [01:54:55] of standing there gawping, and my nurse was like this. She’d never seen anything [01:55:00] like it. Kid was all matter of fact. And he just woke up straight away. As soon as the tooth [01:55:05] was out, I said, right, that’s done. And he woke up, got up, and they left. Then [01:55:10] I did a root canal for another needle phobic. And, you know, it was there [01:55:15] in the background. But what I realised as I studied NLP [01:55:20] was you don’t actually have to do too much. If [01:55:25] you can talk a certain way, read a patient, read [01:55:30] their pacing, read and what’s right for them, you can modulate [01:55:35] how you talk. I’m doing it right now.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of mirroring, right?

Raj Ahlowia: A little bit, [01:55:40] a little bit of mirroring. But then from mirroring to leading you can start by [01:55:45] mirroring, but you got to lead them to where you want them to be. So if they’re very hyper, you [01:55:50] can be a little bit hyper with them to begin with.

Payman Langroudi: And slow.

Raj Ahlowia: Them down, slow them right down. [01:55:55] Now, Larry Brewer, who I mentioned the former stand [01:56:00] up comedian and dentist who could also do that hand trick, he once told me, he said [01:56:05] when I was on stage as a stand up comedian, if [01:56:10] the crowd were a bit noisy and rowdy and weren’t paying attention, the best way to grab their attention [01:56:15] is not to shout at them and not try to overpower their volume. You [01:56:20] start talking quieter and slower, and the people who are paying attention [01:56:25] to you will tell everyone around them to shut up.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:56:30]

Raj Ahlowia: He said. You know, you can manipulate the crowd by [01:56:35] getting the attention of just a few who’ll do the rest of the work for you. So [01:56:40] I’ve always been fascinated about that. The psychology of human beings, their behaviour. [01:56:45] Well, it’s this sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Massive thirst for knowledge. Yeah. And I [01:56:50] don’t know how to characterise it. Like, almost like unorthodox delivery. You sort of unorthodox [01:56:55] thinking.

Raj Ahlowia: I just like learning different things every year. I wanted to learn something new in. My father in [01:57:00] law said, what are you learning this year? You know.

Payman Langroudi: Always, always been that guy.

Raj Ahlowia: You know, when [01:57:05] you when you find the things that it’s like, for example, my son, [01:57:10] as he was growing up, we wanted to give him opportunities. Anything [01:57:15] he showed an interest in, we would do what was necessary to embrace that, [01:57:20] encourage that, enable that, give him opportunities. So piano lessons, [01:57:25] golf lessons, swimming lessons, fencing lessons, you know, art [01:57:30] classes, you name it. Let him indulge. But slowly, [01:57:35] slowly, he discovers which ones he really enjoys and [01:57:40] which ones he wants to let go and drop away. I was always interested in learning [01:57:45] things, but over the time you find the ones that you really, really enjoy [01:57:50] and the other ones, you just let them go. I used to do stage hypnotism. It was a party trick [01:57:55] thing. I remember my brother who’s a very, very well [01:58:00] known endodontist. Um, he teaches the Distance learning MSC [01:58:05] at King’s. Things. Um. I remember when he was a student, his [01:58:10] year group and the medics were going to some ski resort for, [01:58:15] you know, the winter holidays, and I tagged along with them. And [01:58:20] somewhere along the line, he told them that I knew how to do hypnosis. [01:58:25] And they started badgering me. Would I do a show? So I ended up doing a show [01:58:30] in a hotel resort dining room to their [01:58:35] group and everybody else that was there, including the staff from [01:58:40] the hotel. It was just random, random things like that. All right, fine, [01:58:45] I’ll do it. I’ll do a show. I remember giving my brother a hypno, um, a [01:58:50] photographic memory to help him through guys when he was a student, [01:58:55] so helped him. Um, yeah. Developed strategies [01:59:00] for learning, including a photographic memory, using a lot of my memory techniques that I was [01:59:05] trying for myself anyway. But using hypnosis to program his brain.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:59:10] get to the darker part of the of the pod.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, okay. All right. [01:59:15] Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the darkest day?

Raj Ahlowia: Is there a dark, dark side?

Payman Langroudi: What’s the darkest day in this [01:59:20] journey?

Raj Ahlowia: Darkest day in dentistry or life? Uh, when [01:59:25] whichever one. A patient that had been referred to the practice [01:59:30] decided to sue me and [01:59:35] made a complaint. The only person ever in [01:59:40] my whole career that was pretty dark. It’s the only time I’ve really had [01:59:45] to.

Payman Langroudi: What was the emotion going through you that that you were trying your best and someone thinks [01:59:50] otherwise? Or what was the what was the abiding emotion?

Raj Ahlowia: Um, [01:59:55] a [02:00:00] little bit shocked. Because it come out of [02:00:05] nowhere. But the red flag signs had been there, and it [02:00:10] was another learning experience of the types of patient that are out there, and a learning experience [02:00:15] of how to handle and communicate with them. It [02:00:20] wasn’t a communication error. I don’t think on my part, [02:00:25] it was not recognising the mental [02:00:30] state of this individual early enough. Luckily, [02:00:35] though, because I’ve got a passion for photography, I’d [02:00:40] photographed everything, including all of my [02:00:45] full mouth treatment, planning and waxing up stages, including [02:00:50] articulated trial equilibration of function and every step [02:00:55] of that, and had all the models, including an undamaged. [02:01:00] Damaged reference articulated model set as well to [02:01:05] compare with.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that on every case.

Raj Ahlowia: On these kinds of cases, the big occlusion cases. [02:01:10]

Payman Langroudi: You record all of the.

Raj Ahlowia: I record it. Yeah. I’ve got a really good friend up [02:01:15] in Manchester, Andrew Shelley, who I showed my process of photography to for [02:01:20] recording everything. And he he loves it. He does it as well. Now on his trial of [02:01:25] collaborations like, um, you know, soaking the, um, soaking [02:01:30] the models in, uh, a yellow dye so that wherever [02:01:35] you touch with the handpiece, you can see where you’ve made [02:01:40] changes and photograph it and then check it on the articulator. So you have a [02:01:45] sequence, a working sequence that you’re going to work to, and you show that to the [02:01:50] patient. And it’s all it was all recorded and documented in the notes that the patient had seen [02:01:55] the trial equilibration and then agreed to it. And I had I explained to her that [02:02:00] if we basically she had come to me because she had had a [02:02:05] full mouth rehabilitation, but the occlusion was off and it was incredibly [02:02:10] uncomfortable. So I had helped her with a splint first to show [02:02:15] that given the right occlusal setup, you [02:02:20] can have a comfortable jaw again and jaw joints. And that’s without changing any [02:02:25] of the teeth, just changing, altering one surface with a piece of plastic that sits over [02:02:30] the top. So it was the balance of the jaw that was off. So I said she said, [02:02:35] well, can my teeth have that? I said, yes, if we change the balance of the teeth, [02:02:40] it’s possible, but I’m going to have to trial it to see what teeth I’m going to have [02:02:45] to adjust.

Raj Ahlowia: And I’ll show you how much adjustment I’m going to have to do. And [02:02:50] so she looked at the trial equilibration. I did it in front of her and photographed [02:02:55] it, and it took about 25 minutes. And she goes, how long will it take to do the same thing [02:03:00] in my mouth? I said exactly the same amount of time, because you’ve just seen the changes I’m going to [02:03:05] have to make. And I said, but you’ve got all these metal [02:03:10] framed ceramic bridgework, and on some of those teeth you’ve [02:03:15] already worn through to the metal on those bridges. And [02:03:20] if it’s a choice between adjusting that bridge or your good real natural tooth [02:03:25] above to get the balance right, which would you prefer me to drill the [02:03:30] already worn out bridge, worn through bridge or your natural tooth? And [02:03:35] she correctly said, drill the bridge. And I said, yes, that’s right, because it’s the bridge that’s wrong. So [02:03:40] if I adjust it more, we can get the balance right and not have to touch your good natural [02:03:45] tooth. I said that’s the right decision, which I showed her on the trial equilibration. So she [02:03:50] helped in the in the.

Payman Langroudi: Diagnosis sort of thing. Yeah. [02:03:55]

Raj Ahlowia: And so I then did the adjustments on her teeth and photographed it [02:04:00] and checked the bite and everything and all good. And she had [02:04:05] been referred down from Newcastle. Anyway, she [02:04:10] goes back home and I said, we’ve got a review booked in about a week. So if [02:04:15] there’s any minor tweaks and adjustments, just like when we did your splint, never get it perfect first time. [02:04:20] So if there’s tweaks and adjustments we’ll tweak and adjust it. And this will tell us [02:04:25] everything we need to know. And she said, if I don’t like the way the bridge looks after you’ve done these adjustments [02:04:30] because more metal is going to show, can I change it? I said, yes, of course you can. And [02:04:35] at least then we’ll know exactly what dimensions to make it. So this bridge, [02:04:40] you realise, is going to need to be changed. Yeah. All documented. Then [02:04:45] she goes away and she starts forgetting the [02:04:50] discussions we’ve just had. And she starts looking at this bridge [02:04:55] and obsessing over how ugly it looks. She goes to another dentist who says [02:05:00] something stupid like, oh, how could someone do such an awful bridge [02:05:05] for you? Like I made it that way and adjusted it that way. I didn’t make the bridge and adjust it that [02:05:10] way. And so she gets perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Storm starts to brew her head. [02:05:15]

Raj Ahlowia: And it’s my.

Payman Langroudi: Fault.

Raj Ahlowia: And this other dentist’s fee for the bridge I need to pay and [02:05:20] decides to sue me. Now, luckily.

Payman Langroudi: My documented.

Raj Ahlowia: Everything. [02:05:25] My wife took this gigantic box of [02:05:30] models and said she works. My wife works in London, so she dropped it all off to them along [02:05:35] with all the notes. And I sent them an articulator too, because I wasn’t sure they’d have the article. [02:05:40] They put the model on. I said, there you go, there’s everything. They looked at it, did [02:05:45] their first report back to her solicitors, and her solicitors basically turned [02:05:50] around and said, this is an unwinnable case. We recommend [02:05:55] you drop the case. And and so they weren’t prepared to move [02:06:00] forward with it. And I got a letter about 4 or 5 months later saying, you [02:06:05] know, the other party’s solicitors have advised her there is no case [02:06:10] to answer. But that was, you know, a dark shadow hanging over me. [02:06:15] Um, I you know, it seems to happen to people a lot [02:06:20] these days. Um, but I’m extremely careful in my [02:06:25] communications now with patients. I want them to really understand [02:06:30] what they’re committing to. And if I think someone’s a crazy, I [02:06:35] do turn them down. And I’ve had a few. I can tell you stories about some proper crazies, [02:06:40] um, that I’ve turned down one of them. A really interesting one, actually. It was a lawyer who [02:06:45] wanted me to just. He. Had smashed [02:06:50] his mouth apart with his power function, absolutely destroyed it. And he just [02:06:55] wanted me to do six veneers at the front.

Raj Ahlowia: He’d seen me on the telly at [02:07:00] the time. I had a brilliant study group of former students [02:07:05] or people from my study group, and we used to meet at Nstc and [02:07:10] Stevenage in their beautiful facilities. Um, once every [02:07:15] 3 or 4 months, and I’d put on a day or two and come up with a topic. [02:07:20] And so I thought, this lawyer who [02:07:25] wants me to do these six veneers, I’ve explained to him that, you know, your problem [02:07:30] is much bigger than just these front teeth. It’s the you’ve you’ve destroyed [02:07:35] all your back teeth. So you’ve got no what we call posterior support to take the brunt of all [02:07:40] your chewing. So you’re now mashing up your front teeth because you’ve got nothing at the back to chew with. What [02:07:45] we really need to do is rehabilitate you at the back. First get that stabilised [02:07:50] and taking the weight, and then we can do whatever you want to do cosmetically at the front, [02:07:55] but without doing the back first. All that will happen is whatever damage you’ve [02:08:00] done to the big dentists in the sky’s teeth and Mother Nature’s materials you’re [02:08:05] going to do to mine. And I’m nowhere near as good as that big dentist in the sky. And the materials I’ve [02:08:10] got aren’t as good as Mother Nature’s. And he just wasn’t getting it.

Raj Ahlowia: He goes, [02:08:15] yeah, no, I just want you to do these. And I said, all right, look, I’ll tell you what [02:08:20] I’m going to do. I’ve got a study group this weekend of 16 students. [02:08:25] Why don’t you, um, come along, we’ll [02:08:30] take pictures of your case models and everything, and [02:08:35] I will get them in groups to work out your treatment, and [02:08:40] we’ll see what they say. And he said, you’re right. And I said, but [02:08:45] do me a favour. Don’t tell them you’re my patient. I’ll just introduce you and pretend you’re my technician or something, [02:08:50] and you’re just visiting for the day. He said, all right. Good. So he [02:08:55] comes along to the study group. Students are there. We have our usual preamble chit chat, [02:09:00] and I say, right, we’re going to do this exercise and I’m going to give you in groups [02:09:05] the case. I put all the photographs up. I’ve got the x rays, everything. We can flip [02:09:10] backs and forwards through the photographs, whatever you guys want. I’ve got a bunch of them printed out. Here [02:09:15] are the models on articulators for you to look at. Don’t damage them. I want you to work out a [02:09:20] treatment plan. I will answer for you as the patient. And [02:09:25] this is my goal. I want a nice cosmetic end outcome with the front. You [02:09:30] tell me what it’s going to take and give me a budget for how much it’s going to cost. [02:09:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Now, the weird thing is, full gigantic screen [02:09:40] at NSK. Massive, you know, must be 200 inch projector [02:09:45] screen. I put a picture up of this guy. He’s sitting [02:09:50] there. They don’t recognise it’s the same guy. Because the power of [02:09:55] hypnosis. I’ve said he’s a technician. He’s my technician. He’s got nothing to do with this. They don’t put two and two [02:10:00] together. The same guy. And they go off and they’re focussed on the task that I’ve given them. And [02:10:05] they spend half an hour, 40 minutes poring through it, asking me to [02:10:10] show x rays, asking me to answer questions as the patient. He’s sitting there listening. And [02:10:15] they come up with treatment plans, and they correctly talk about occlusion [02:10:20] and function and restoring the posterior before doing the anterior. And they [02:10:25] all get it. And they come up with a budget, which is very similar to what I quoted the guy. And [02:10:30] then I introduce him and they go, oh, that’s so funny. And he stays [02:10:35] for lunch and. And then I said, you know, you don’t have to stay for the rest of the day. I said, so what [02:10:40] do you think? He goes, guys? Yeah, yeah, it’s all interesting. Interesting guys. Uh, but [02:10:45] no, I just want to do the front. And I said, look.

Payman Langroudi: That was your red flag right there. Red [02:10:50] flag.

Raj Ahlowia: I said, look, you’re a lawyer, right? He goes, yeah. He goes, if if, um, [02:10:55] one of your clients wants to do something different to your advice, [02:11:00] are you obliged to, you know, do those things that they want you to do, even [02:11:05] if it goes against your better advice and they’re going to do something completely wrong. He goes, no, no, no, no, I [02:11:10] won’t I won’t take them on. I’ll tell them straight. It’s not for me. I said, well, [02:11:15] thank you for your time. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Thank you for offering me the work. [02:11:20] But I can’t accept, um, if all you want to do is that [02:11:25] there are lots of other dentists that will give you that you walked away. That [02:11:30] was it. So, you know, having the [02:11:35] wits to turn down the red flag Patient is [02:11:40] a skill that I think dentists need to learn early. It’ll save them a [02:11:45] lot of heartache if you can.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult, though. It comes with experience.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. But but you know, most dentists when [02:11:50] they’re young aren’t doing big, big, big, big, big cases yet because they haven’t learned how to do them yet. But [02:11:55] once they do start to do them, hopefully by that point they will [02:12:00] already have learned to filter the red flag patients. [02:12:05] But also they need to not be worried about the money that they’re going to turn down. And I think [02:12:10] that is a big tripping point that will trip people up because they look at [02:12:15] the money that they’re going to turn down and they’re thinking, oh, you know, I’ve got another mortgage [02:12:20] to payment to make. This is a case that’s landed on my lap, you know, [02:12:25] should I turn it down or should I just go ahead and do it?

Payman Langroudi: The weird paradox with money is that you [02:12:30] end up getting a lot more of it when you stop chasing it [02:12:35] in dentistry. Yeah. You there’s a sixth sense that patients can feel [02:12:40] where you don’t really mind whether they go ahead or not.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, yeah. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And hence they go ahead. Yeah [02:12:45] yeah yeah yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: Um, absolutely. If you look hungry.

Payman Langroudi: Paradoxical is it. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: If you look [02:12:50] hungry for it, they can sniff that out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And they know straight away it’s all about the money more [02:12:55] than them. I’ve never been about the money. I’m the poorest dentist out there. [02:13:00] Honestly, I spend every penny I’ve got on family. And, yeah, [02:13:05] I did spend it all. You know, there was a point back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go digital [02:13:10] as well? Have you, have you jumped into all of that.

Raj Ahlowia: Digital back in 2006? [02:13:15]

Payman Langroudi: When I but and and all the way [02:13:20] onto you know where it is now.

Raj Ahlowia: I did I mean talking about spending all my [02:13:25] money. There was a point where we were expecting a Kimi in 2004. [02:13:30] I was, you know, rushing backwards and forwards to the States all the time. [02:13:35] I had about £50 in the bank, that’s all. And I crashed my car in the snow. [02:13:40] It wasn’t a bad crash. Just smashed up the front headlight. Um, but [02:13:45] I only had £50 in the bank, and the excess was more than [02:13:50] that on my insurance. I was thinking, oh, blimey, I’ll just pay for this myself. Um. Became incredibly [02:13:55] good friends with the guys that did that repair for me, funnily enough. They’d been friends for life since [02:14:00] then. Um, but, yeah, um, I used to spend all [02:14:05] my money on family and education. Not. Not that much on myself, [02:14:10] on, you know, the luxury items like watches and cars and all the rest of it. That [02:14:15] all came later. But my priorities were my education. [02:14:20] And make sure the family bills were paid and buy a house that we needed [02:14:25] and all the rest of it, but also stay true and loyal to the patients at the practice. Not [02:14:30] be gone too long. So I was doing three weeks at the practice and a week away. Um, but, [02:14:35] um, that was, that was, you know, the living poor and learning. But [02:14:40] then, um, what was the second part about? You said something else. Um, I [02:14:45] can’t remember. Anyway, so I was the poorest dentist in town. Uh, yeah. [02:14:50] Spending it all.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure talking to you, man.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thank [02:14:55] you. Um, we always finish on the same questions.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, that. Well, that.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. [02:15:00]

Raj Ahlowia: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Raj Ahlowia: Three guests.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Raj Ahlowia: Um. [02:15:05] All right. Um. Oh, [02:15:10] God. Uh. I [02:15:15] really don’t know. I really don’t know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [02:15:20] could ask you the next question, and then that one might marinate. The next question [02:15:25] is a deathbed question. Deathbed. On your deathbed. Three pieces of advice for your loved ones. [02:15:30]

Raj Ahlowia: Uh. Don’t be sad. We all die. [02:15:35] You know we’re all going to die. There is no escaping it. I my my my outlook [02:15:40] on death is it’s going to happen. I’m not going to worry about it. And [02:15:45] I hope that my family know that [02:15:50] if I had some kind of post-death consciousness, [02:15:55] I wouldn’t want them to be sad and worried. [02:16:00] I’d hope that, um, you know, they know I love them [02:16:05] and they love me too. And it’s just natural. And you now [02:16:10] go on and carry on and live your lives and be happy best you can. And [02:16:15] don’t worry about me. That’s enough. Hopefully I gave them enough and did [02:16:20] enough for them and loved them enough. Probably didn’t. Nobody ever. Never. [02:16:25] You know, um, they always regret, you know, they didn’t spend enough time with their family, apparently. [02:16:30] Isn’t that one of the deathbed things that is the most common?

Payman Langroudi: Five regrets of the dying.

Raj Ahlowia: Regrets that [02:16:35] they didn’t spend enough time with their loved ones. Yeah, hopefully, you know, [02:16:40] they’ll understand why I put so much time into the work and everything [02:16:45] to try and provide and give them everything and give my son the best start because, [02:16:50] damn it, the government’s going to try and steal most of it anyway. Um, even [02:16:55] after I’ve gone, they’re going to try and steal a load of it, so hopefully I’ve given him enough resources. [02:17:00] But isn’t that what life does? All life, whether it’s a plant, an amoeba, a [02:17:05] fungus we’re all trying to. Give [02:17:10] as much resource to the next generation so it survives and thrives. That’s [02:17:15] my purpose. That’s all life’s purpose is. Yeah. And [02:17:20] we human beings try to do that sometimes in stupid ways. War for resources [02:17:25] is stupid. There’s enough resources on the planet that we don’t need to do any [02:17:30] of that, but we group ourselves.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a competitive planet, though.

Raj Ahlowia: Weird way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [02:17:35] know what I mean? Like two plants compete for life.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s a greedy planet.

Payman Langroudi: But. [02:17:40] But two plants compete for light, you know? Do you call that greed?

Raj Ahlowia: Well, I [02:17:45] think the way the resources of the planet are. Yeah, it [02:17:50] could be more equally divided. But greed ends up putting. [02:17:55]

Payman Langroudi: The.

Raj Ahlowia: Plants in one hand.

Payman Langroudi: Example. How would you know what I mean? It’s [02:18:00] a it’s a competitive planet. Everything’s competitive.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, [02:18:05] it’s a strive for life. It’s, uh. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [02:18:10] but then you hope. You hope. You hope like humanity is there. But maybe it’s slightly above that, [02:18:15] right. That’s that’s what. Yeah, but we’re not.

Raj Ahlowia: But we’re not. There’s a lot of stupidity. [02:18:20]

Payman Langroudi: And you believe in God.

Raj Ahlowia: No. Not really. Really, no.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say seek [02:18:25] and seek, people do this. You think thinking more culturally, culturally Sikh than. Yeah, [02:18:30] yeah. It’s been a massive, massive pleasure, man. If you don’t want to go back to the to the dinner [02:18:35] party, I’m happy to end it on that.

Raj Ahlowia: Thank you so much, sir. It’s been an honour.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so [02:18:40] much for coming in.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [02:18:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [02:18:50] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [02:18:55] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If [02:19:00] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [02:19:05] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [02:19:10] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [02:19:15] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [02:19:20] out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [02:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Ash back [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Ashkan was on about three years ago. [00:00:50] Episode 125. For anyone who wants to listen to that, ash is the founder [00:00:55] and or co-founder and CEO of the Southcliffe Dental group, [00:01:00] which is how many practices now? 24. 24. Practices. How many [00:01:05] people?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Uh, about 400.

Payman Langroudi: 400 people. Big, [00:01:10] big beast.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not small anymore. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:01:15] listened to the previous episode, and you were saying back then you were looking for 50. Did [00:01:20] you change your opinion on that? Did you go into more consolidation?

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s more realising [00:01:25] that quantity is is maybe not the the KPI you should go for [00:01:30] quality is. Um, so so that’s why we kind of changed [00:01:35] our, our mindset and thought and thought the best thing to do would be to focus [00:01:40] on achieving being the best of the best. Um, and focusing on what we’ve got rather [00:01:45] than actually, uh, having having the most in number. And also [00:01:50] what kind of what what I think drives a lot of business owners is what I [00:01:55] think mostly most business owners is your EBITDA. You know, your bottom line profit. [00:02:00] Um, and as long as the EBITDA is increasing year on year, which usually [00:02:05] is linked to to a growth of turnover, um, that turnover [00:02:10] can be grown almost like internally rather than externally by, [00:02:15] by acquisitions. Um, so that’s what’s driven us over the last [00:02:20] 2 or 3 years, is just focusing on the, on the bottom line and [00:02:25] an implementation of a new business model as well, as opposed [00:02:30] to the existing one that we had or which most practices kind of kind of run run [00:02:35] with. Um, and then and proven it works. That’s what we did. [00:02:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, and uh, following the uh, the last podcast, [00:02:45] it went a bit belly up. We went into a period where it was, you know, I think about a [00:02:50] pound away from bankruptcy. It was that bad. It was horrendous. Um, we hit clawback [00:02:55] March 1023, um, to the tune of about £4 [00:03:00] million. Wow. Um, and then we had previous years clawback of 3 million, which we [00:03:05] just got over and it was um, it was unfortunately, uh, you know, [00:03:10] bend over and take your trousers down. Time for ash. Um, uh, [00:03:15] so then we. Yeah, it was, it was, it was been I think the last two years has been the toughest [00:03:20] two years in business in my personal life. Um, [00:03:25] then I think the whole ten years doing, you know, it’s our ten year anniversary [00:03:30] in the end of March 25th. So in the whole ten [00:03:35] years, the last two years has been the toughest, really the toughest. And I think, uh, [00:03:40] doing dentistry for 15 years, um, it’s been yeah, [00:03:45] the last two years has been incredibly it’s been tough but then rewarding because I think once [00:03:50] you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Gotten through it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Once you’ve gotten through that, You’ve experienced [00:03:55] it. You’ve dealt with it. You’ve changed. Um, it’s [00:04:00] taught me a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Because people kind of might think someone who’s got 24 [00:04:05] practices doesn’t have financial worries anymore. But it’s a misconception, [00:04:10] isn’t it? You don’t get to that number of practices by spending the money. Yeah. You’re [00:04:15] constantly reinvesting. Yep. And you yourself constantly working [00:04:20] in the NHS. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what surprised me a little bit. You’re [00:04:25] a busy NHS dentist yourself while running 24 practices.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, well, I mean, [00:04:30] with business, cash is king, as they say. Um, so cash flow will make or break you. [00:04:35] You know, you can have all the assets in the world. If your cash runs out, you might only have a week. And then then [00:04:40] then it’s game over. Um, and also when you’re growing a business, obviously you have to you have to [00:04:45] we usually you borrow money from banks and it comes with strict covenants. And if you breach those covenants, [00:04:50] then again, um, um, they can come and, you know, start [00:04:55] pulling the strings and essentially so so that’s kind of what happened. Um, um, [00:05:00] a combination of breaching confidence and, and, uh, run out of cash because of the [00:05:05] clawback issue. Um, the only reason why I immersed into doing pretty much full time [00:05:10] at one point, full time clinical NHS dentistry was when was when I needed to implement the new [00:05:15] the new business model that we, we kind of invented. Um, [00:05:20] I think so I clinically I qualified in 2009 and I clinically retired [00:05:25] in 2019. So I did ten years, ten years of good hard clinical dentistry, um, [00:05:30] and then up to up to 2023. So for that [00:05:35] three year period, three four year period, I wasn’t doing any clinical work, just solely focussed on business [00:05:40] and bank meetings and acquisitions and, you know, head office kind of stuff. [00:05:45] Um, but then when you want to implement a new model, the best way is to to throw yourself [00:05:50] into the thick of it and to see, okay, how is it working? Can we tweak it? What needs to happen? [00:05:55]

Payman Langroudi: What was the new model?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So the new the new model is is is is utilising [00:06:00] the skill mix. Um, um, almost like the therapist the [00:06:05] therapist model. Um, um, within NHS dentistry, um, [00:06:10] which um, and our model is very different to the, to the ones [00:06:15] that you see advertised or how it’s taught. It’s a very unique one, um, where, [00:06:20] you know, it’s not just looking at the skill mix, but looking at the referral process, looking at [00:06:25] payment allocations to to therapists, dentists, you know, you’re splitting udas. Um, [00:06:30] I’m not talking about splitting treatment. Course of treatment, I mean, splitting. If a therapist is involved in a course of treatment and that’s [00:06:35] finished off by a dentist, how patients obviously perceive things, access. Um, [00:06:40] so it’s the whole thing and it and we we started running with it in the 1st [00:06:45] of April, uh, 2023. Um, and [00:06:50] it took us two years to actually implement and tweak because we had to change things. [00:06:55] We had to tweak things. We had to run with this concept as a classic example. Initially we employed [00:07:00] all the therapists and paid them an hourly rate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You pay anyone an hourly rate that doesn’t give [00:07:05] them any incentive to work.

Payman Langroudi: Slow down. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, exactly. So, um, and there’s no there’s [00:07:10] nothing driving them. And also they weren’t driven as well because they were like, well, okay, my earnings are capped. I can only [00:07:15] just do more hours. So then switching it to a UDA payment mechanism, but then [00:07:20] also implementing all of the uh waiting for the regulations then to change. [00:07:25] Uh, it had to be a medical regulation change for them to give local anaesthetic without without [00:07:30] needing a patient group directive or a dentist overseeing it and then linking [00:07:35] it all back to the NHS contracts to see obviously, you know, is this is this something that can be [00:07:40] done without dentist involvement? So yeah, it took us that two year period [00:07:45] to to implement it.

Payman Langroudi: Talk me through it through a new NHS patient presents. Do [00:07:50] they get seen by therapists first? Yes. And the therapist can now do examinations. [00:07:55] Right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yep. Examinations. Radiographs. Uh, restorations. Extraction [00:08:00] of deciduous teeth. Perio treatment. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:08:05] does that therapist by themselves decide what the treatment plan is going to be or how does it work?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes. [00:08:10] Then they can essentially formulate the treatment plan. Um, they would then refer onwards [00:08:15] to the to the GDP, the dentist, if obviously there’s a, there’s a, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Anything [00:08:20] else they.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Can’t do outside of the scope of practice. Um, and then the benefits to [00:08:25] the GDP, uh, to the dentist is that almost you then become on the NHS, you become a [00:08:30] specialist in your own right. Because like when I work clinically now, I don’t see kids. I [00:08:35] don’t do exams. So you. So the the treatment that I’m [00:08:40] doing is simply the high yielding, high profit treatments only because you’re, [00:08:45] you’re low yielding, low profit treatments of just your band ones. And if you’re band twos [00:08:50] and even if that’s privately, you’re not, you’re not doing at all. Um, so you’re only literally coming [00:08:55] into a day of crown preps, root canals, extractions, dentures. Um, [00:09:00] so you’re focusing just on those high quality bits that you can do [00:09:05] which then, which then maximises your earnings as the GDP. So it works on both levels. But we have to try [00:09:10] and test all the different bits. Mhm. Um and then from an organisational point [00:09:15] of view, um, from um a practice based EBITDA, [00:09:20] you know, you’re looking at about 35% and generally [00:09:25] you know your, your, your EBITDA percentage of turnover in practice level, you [00:09:30] know, is around about 20 on a group corporate level, you’re looking at [00:09:35] you’re looking at an EBITDA of 25%. And usually it’s less than ten. Um, [00:09:40] so then for from a from an organisational structure, you’re looking and thinking, oh, This is amazing. [00:09:45] Um, and we went from a actual kind of like, figures, um, [00:09:50] from our March 1023 of zero profit [00:09:55] because we had the, the huge.

Payman Langroudi: Clawback.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And underperformance, pretty much all negative, as [00:10:00] it were, to, you know, the end of year one, uh, it goes up [00:10:05] to like 5 million profit, profit, EBITDA and then [00:10:10] um, and then increased, increased on that. And then the, the, the aim this year is to hit [00:10:15] hit an EBITDA of between 7 to 8. Um, well and [00:10:20] then you multiply that out and then it’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And I don’t think you can really flip a business around [00:10:25] in that short space of time. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like like emergency patient care, [00:10:30] right. Yeah. Interesting. So then what were the sort of issues that you came across convincing [00:10:35] people about this? I mean, there must have been issues, right? You must have had a dentist saying, what the hell? [00:10:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: To two of them. Dentists and patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Patient. [00:10:45] I mean, now, as a patient, if you go into A&E, you don’t see a doctor [00:10:50] at all. At the start anyway. Yeah. You get triaged by a nurse practitioner. [00:10:55] Then you might then see, um, someone with advanced skills and all this kind of [00:11:00] stuff. They might bandage you up and send you off, give you a prescription, send you off, and and if obviously it’s [00:11:05] worse and worse and worse, then, yeah, you end up seeing seeing a doctor at the end of the line. Um, [00:11:10] and the same obviously in medical practice, you know. Um, so [00:11:15] it’s changing the patient’s perception that actually seeing a therapist is good. There’s [00:11:20] been a lot of research to say that actually patients, the patient outcomes are improved. [00:11:25] If you see a therapist. Why are happier? A lot of the time they have more time [00:11:30] to spend on a patient, whereas whereas a dentist, um, um, you [00:11:35] don’t. The way I would do clinical dentistry as well is if I saw a patient and [00:11:40] automatically I know they’re stable and this is the band one. Then you almost like you’re thinking.

Payman Langroudi: Move them along. [00:11:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Move them along. Because I want I want to get involved. I want to see a patient. I’m going to do something so so [00:11:50] so therefore most you’re not spending that quality time with them and talking about oral hygiene. Oh yeah. Just go and [00:11:55] see the hygienist. Oh yeah. Yeah. Just you know, whereas obviously the therapists don’t. They spend that time with them. So the patient [00:12:00] outcomes are improved. Um so the patient perception was hard. And then. Yeah, [00:12:05] also then changing the changing the perception of the dentist as well to say that actually, [00:12:10] you know, you.

Payman Langroudi: Focus on the focus on you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Focus on the stuff that you went into dental school to learn [00:12:15] how to do, you know, and um, um, and your day is just literally just packed [00:12:20] almost like that, um, changing their perception. So it happened. But it takes time. [00:12:25] It takes time. You got to sit everyone down, explain these things and implement it. And of [00:12:30] course, you’re going to hit hurdles and there’s going to be stumbling blocks and and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: But all the therapists [00:12:35] up to the treatment planning piece, or are you internally training them.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I [00:12:40] mean, the majority of our therapists are, um, dentists in their own right. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: From foreign. From foreign qualified.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Foreign qualified. Um, outside the EU. Um, [00:12:50] so so it’s automatically there’s a they’re [00:12:55] used to treatment planning, but then saying that we do have some UK qualified therapists and they [00:13:00] can treatment plan. Well because that’s what they’re taught to do. But they don’t. But then per say they try and [00:13:05] plan up to their scope so they would recognise there is a partially dentate patient [00:13:10] who has expressed need for, say, prostheses. So then they would just [00:13:15] do a referral to the practitioner, but then they’re going to sit down with the patient and go through. Right. This is a denture. This is a [00:13:20] fixed appliance. This is what a bridge. This is what an implant. They don’t. So they’re not going to have those discussions. But they recognise [00:13:25] up to a point. And then make the referral and then it’s down then to the dentist then to then undertake [00:13:30] that chat. But then at that point in time, the dentist essentially can then give [00:13:35] all the treatment options as well The NHS and the private.

Payman Langroudi: And then from the sort of [00:13:40] the allocation perspective the band one udas you give to the therapist and the the rest [00:13:45] you can give to the dentist.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So we split.

Payman Langroudi: You can split how it works.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You can split. Yeah. You split the UDA. So it’s the same course of [00:13:50] treatment. So only one course of treatment gets claimed on the NHS. If it’s an NHS course, you know, privately obviously works [00:13:55] differently. Um, and then obviously the therapist gets their bit, the dentist gets their [00:14:00] bit. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And are you the only ones doing this.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Our [00:14:05] model. Yes. Because our model is, it’s, it’s even though how I describe it, [00:14:10] you think oh that sounds quite easy. Our model is a lot more intense. [00:14:15] Um, it’s a lot more intricacy to it, I think on a wide, wide, wide, [00:14:20] wide scale. Yes. I think we’re the only ones doing it. [00:14:25] Um, I don’t think there’s a lot of groups that have the, the drive [00:14:30] to want to implement or can do because they’ll hit a stumbling block and they’ll just give up. Um, I don’t [00:14:35] think the model works in private practice. Fully private practice. I think it only works in an NHS slash [00:14:40] mixed practice privately, I. I can’t see it working, [00:14:45] but we don’t own private, fully private practices only because if I’m a patient that’s paying top dollar to see [00:14:50] a for an appointment, why would I pay [00:14:55] the top dollar then to see a therapist when maybe I want to see a dentist so that and then obviously then if you’re reducing the [00:15:00] fee to see a therapist, then essentially you’re in the private model. You’re doing yourself out of money [00:15:05] or doing yourself out of income by doing that. So I don’t see how that works, I think is that [00:15:10] could probably be solved. But then that’s not my problem to solve because we don’t do that’s [00:15:15] not how our business model works, then I wouldn’t there’s no sense.

Payman Langroudi: In the acquisition. You’ve [00:15:20] always focussed on mixed practices.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why is that? Is that because it’s easier to borrow? [00:15:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, uh, yes. Um, in [00:15:30] a nutshell. Um, it’s easier then obviously to, to because you’ve got the guaranteed income coming [00:15:35] in. So your NHS income essentially covers your overheads. Yeah. And then you build on anything like that. The way [00:15:40] we when we were in the acquisition phase, um, we, we would buy practices, [00:15:45] um, almost like, you know, like a cigarette where you’ve, you’ve [00:15:50] had most of it and there’s just one final drag left. So we’d buy it at that final drag, we would pick [00:15:55] it up and have have that final puff almost. Um, so they were they were pretty much practices [00:16:00] that come to the end of their life. Uh, owners are just wanting to move on. Didn’t care anymore. [00:16:05] Um, so we would buy it and then we’d we’d, you know, we’d increase the private revenue in the practice. [00:16:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you specifically would be looking for NHS practices that weren’t doing much profit, weren’t doing. [00:16:15]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No, no, we would.

Payman Langroudi: That would be the potential that you’d see in.

Ashkan Pitchforth: There. Exactly. Because you’ve got to have, you’ve, you’ve you’ve [00:16:20] got to be able to create, you’ve got to be able to buy something and then create equity in it. I think [00:16:25] they call it Armitage or something like that. I’m not sure the exact business term. Um, and [00:16:30] then we can then once we’ve then created more equity, essentially. We can then borrow more off of that and [00:16:35] then increase. And that’s how we expanded to 24 in a in a relatively short space of time. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: And were you borrowing based on the other practices growth? Yes. Is that how it work?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That’s how [00:16:45] it worked. Yeah. And then a lot of the time we bought in cash as well. Um, um, well, we had the [00:16:50] funds and the cash flow existed to you.

Payman Langroudi: And then from a sort of org chart perspective, [00:16:55] was there a, is there a manager on each side. And they’re [00:17:00] really in charge of growth. Is that how you do it?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Um, in [00:17:05] the last two years, actually, we completely changed our, um, organisational [00:17:10] structure. Actually, that was one of the things that I worked, I learned in these last two years [00:17:15] before it was more me running the show entirely. It was heavily [00:17:20] reliant on me doing a lot. Um, or delegating jobs to people that were doing [00:17:25] it that that maybe didn’t understand, um, the responsibility, [00:17:30] Ability of the position that they had. So in the last two years, we I just [00:17:35] we literally just stripped out every single member, senior [00:17:40] management member apart from three, three, four essential ones [00:17:45] that I saw potential in them. Um, and trust. [00:17:50] Um, and then we, we built built it from from there. So, so [00:17:55] we, we have a very properly organised corporate head [00:18:00] office structure now, you know, CEO, chairman, CFO, you know, [00:18:05] CEO, HR director, operations director, uh Dental directors and [00:18:10] then everyone then falling underneath that, you know, managers, then within that systems in place. [00:18:15] So it’s not heavily reliant on myself. Um, and everyone takes [00:18:20] accountability and responsibility for their area. And then underneath that then you got the practice manager. [00:18:25] So going back to your question, do we rely on the practice managers for growth. Now we rely on [00:18:30] them on, on, on following our vision and our principles and grinding it like that. Um, [00:18:35] but the the vision and the principles, the creativity comes from the higher level, myself [00:18:40] and the team, um, which is where it’s been a bit tricky in dentistry because the thing is, you can’t actually [00:18:45] measure creativity. No.

Payman Langroudi: So some [00:18:50] of the most important stuff you can’t measure.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No you can’t. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that’s really interesting, really important point. [00:18:55] You know, because corporate structures want measurement all the time. Yeah. Um, [00:19:00] and when you come to sell this thing, measurements will be important. So that’s why they, you know, they do it, [00:19:05] but you can’t measure the feeling that someone gets from in [00:19:10] our, in our world, the feeling that someone gets from using a quality product difficult to measure. [00:19:15]

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s impossible. You can’t you can’t, you can’t measure that. Yeah. You can’t measure how someone feels. You know how [00:19:20] oh, wow. You know, how would you measure that on a scale? Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:19:25] it’s a, it’s an important thing because sometimes I’ve heard Johnny or [00:19:30] someone talking about this. You know, the guy who invented the iPhone. [00:19:35] Oh, right. And he was talking about when you unbox it. And as the cable [00:19:40] drops out of the way that, you know, the way they pack it. Yes. That that bit of magic that happens, [00:19:45] there is something that you go back to. Yeah. The designer, [00:19:50] something like like a meeting between you and the designer of that product. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That’s true, that’s [00:19:55] very true.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s impossible to measure it. Yeah. But in many ways, the reason why you [00:20:00] want an iPhone is many of those things. It could be like the most important thing [00:20:05] to that product, but impossible to measure it. Yeah. So yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It is. It’s [00:20:10] the intricacies and the detail I find. Um, and [00:20:15] that creates something unique. Yeah. [00:20:20] Um, that makes something stand out. And I think if you focus on all those intricacies [00:20:25] and then, you know, then it pays, it pays off. And yeah, I agree.

Payman Langroudi: But from the [00:20:30] sort of the patient experience, would you say there’s a unique patient journey [00:20:35] in all of the practices, or would you say they’re all very different? Um, do [00:20:40] you work on that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. I mean, we are. Yes. Patient journey is very important, and we are trying to look at [00:20:45] that and constantly look at that, you know, from from phoning in [00:20:50] to turning up to sitting down. Um, I think, I [00:20:55] think there’s a lot of having looked at it now, I [00:21:00] think there’s a and seeing what other practices do, there’s a lot of practices out there that just [00:21:05] give too much attention to the wrong stuff. My my, [00:21:10] my my personal viewpoint anyway, you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I mean, I see [00:21:15] these practices out there where they honestly and I was saying this on a, on a, on a, on a course once where, you [00:21:20] know, the practice is, is that, is that that beautiful inside, [00:21:25] you know. You’ve got gold taps, you know, in the toilets. And you’re sitting in a waiting [00:21:30] room that looks like it’s something. It should be. It should be. You should be sitting in, you know, uh, [00:21:35] Louis Vuitton or something, you know. Or, um, one of the fashion houses. [00:21:40] Um, but do patients really care about that? Whereas [00:21:45] my point, my my point of view would be actually patients more care about [00:21:50] getting an appointment on time. Yeah. The appointment being worked around their [00:21:55] their social life or their ability to come. Things like parking, accessibility [00:22:00] and then obviously the condition that they see and how they’re treated as opposed [00:22:05] to all that. And even when I had I mean, I’ve, I’ve had loads of [00:22:10] cosmetic surgeries in the past and tattoos and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, I don’t [00:22:15] I don’t choose a place based upon the way it looks. I choose a place based upon [00:22:20] the practitioner at the end of it. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the thing is, [00:22:25] I hear you. Yeah. There’s nothing worse than a restaurant that looks beautiful. And the food’s [00:22:30] terrible, right? Yes, I get that. I get that’s very true. But the difference in dentistry is, [00:22:35] look, at the end of the day, you’ve got. You get the tattoo. You can look. You can see the tattoo. Yeah. You [00:22:40] can sort of give an evaluation of the quality of that tattoo by the final result. Most [00:22:45] of dentistry patients can’t tell whether it was good or bad. Most of it. I mean, [00:22:50] of course, you’ve got high end cosmetic dentistry or whatever. Ortho, maybe you can tell. But most [00:22:55] dentistry, your patient cannot tell whether that matrix was put on correctly or not. Cannot [00:23:00] tell whether you, you know, did anything right or not. Yeah. So then that leaves [00:23:05] non-clinical cues as the only thing that they’ve got to [00:23:10] go on. Now I understand. Yeah. An appointment on time. That’s a non-clinical [00:23:15] cue. Yeah. But I go to. I’ve been to thousands of practices, I think. And you [00:23:20] know what I mean by the cobweb in the corner, that you don’t see [00:23:25] yourself when you work in a place, you don’t see it because you’ve been working there for so long. [00:23:30] And yet, from a patient perspective, that cobweb could tell them more about [00:23:35] the practice from their perspective than than the filling, because they don’t know what you did [00:23:40] with the filling. Yeah. Yeah. So in a way, how things look, how clean the toilet [00:23:45] is, all that stuff is a reflection for patients. Now, me and you know that [00:23:50] there is no link between how clean the toilet is and how well the matrix is put on the tooth. We [00:23:55] know that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, if we’re serving our patients and we want them to think that we’re good, [00:24:00] we I think we need to focus a bit more on that sort of stuff. I mean. [00:24:05]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Cleanliness, I mean, yeah, I’m of course 110%. And [00:24:10] just having something standard is okay, but I’m mainly making reference to when [00:24:15] people go overboard, you know, and and it then becomes ridiculous. I mean, I liken it to [00:24:20] McDonald’s. Patients go to McDonald’s. Patients? Customers go [00:24:25] to McDonald’s, obviously, for food, you know, because you have the consistency. They know [00:24:30] exactly what they’re going to get. Yeah. And it’s not it’s not as high end as if you go. If you go, you know, [00:24:35] to, uh, um, to Cecconi’s in Mayfair, you know, a high end Italian [00:24:40] place. Yeah. Um, the two different ends of the ends of it. But then over your [00:24:45] lifetime, you’re more likely going to frequent a McDonalds or Nando’s [00:24:50] more often than you would the high end Knightsbridge restaurants.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And that’s the [00:24:55] that’s where that’s essentially our models are built on. You get that, you get the standardisation, you get the [00:25:00] cleanliness, you get everything like that. Yes. It’s not a high end like a Knightsbridge practice, but [00:25:05] people are going to keep on coming back for that reason because of the consistency and [00:25:10] the quality and this kind of stuff. That’s kind of what I’m getting at rather than. Of course, if there’s. Honestly, [00:25:15] I’ve been in. If I go into one of our practices. And there’s there’s something wrong, like a bit of dust [00:25:20] or a cobweb or toilet roll that hasn’t been placed. Oh, honestly, I go absolutely nuts. [00:25:25] I mean, I’m a stickler for.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s get to that then. Let’s get to that. What is your leadership [00:25:30] style? Um, because I met your your I think top people. Right? [00:25:35] Yeah. And was that the sort of the 3 or 4 people that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Rachel Charlotte Green? Yeah. [00:25:40] It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: And they all seem to love you. They all seem to love you. Um, but when [00:25:45] you say you go mad, you go crazy. Like, what are you. What kind of boss are you? Are you, are you easy [00:25:50] to to work for or difficult?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No no no no no no. I mean I, I believe [00:25:55] no I believe, I believe I’m easy, easy to work for. I mean, the thing is, is that [00:26:00] the people that. It’s. [00:26:05] I like high standards. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. And I’m not going to [00:26:10] lower my standards just to just to please someone or people. I’m all for. [00:26:15] But I’m. But I’m also quite cutting in what I. I’m not going to beat around the bush if I, [00:26:20] if, if I think something I’m gonna say no. That’s that’s shit. You [00:26:25] know, that idea is crap. I’m not going to turn out. Oh, fantastic. That’s great. Well, yeah. [00:26:30] Thank you for your hard work. And I’m thinking, Jesus, it took you, like, three days to do that when literally, you know, I could [00:26:35] have done it in about half an hour. Um, so there’s I’m. I’m [00:26:40] honest. Um, which, yeah, you could say it’s a bit of a downfall sometimes. [00:26:45] Um, but, but but then also then I’m once you’ve kind of [00:26:50] once I learn to trust you, and I know you’re hardworking and you’re bedded in. Then. Then it’s almost like you [00:26:55] become part of my family, and then I will do anything for you. I’d love you to, you know, till [00:27:00] the cows come home. Um, my leadership skills is, I think, [00:27:05] has changed somewhat over the last few years.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve mellowed out a bit more maybe, [00:27:10] than what I used to be. Um, only because I’ve been. I have to be, you learn to be able to delegate, [00:27:15] learn to be able to maybe let go sometimes, but then then. But [00:27:20] the thing is, is that is that I go home. When I go home, it’s it’s [00:27:25] all on me still, you know, it’s my names linked to the company. So a [00:27:30] bad review or a bad reflection on something then it’s almost like a bad reflection on myself. So I take it quite [00:27:35] personally. And that’s, that’s quite a it’s hard sometimes to deal with this because then you’re relying on other people [00:27:40] representing you, representing your brand. Um, and if they let things down [00:27:45] or let you down, then you’ve got to decide. Do you continue them letting you down [00:27:50] or do you? There’s a point where you have to stop and say, you know what, actually, I can’t continue this because, you [00:27:55] know, we’re not family. We’re not related that I have to continue it. You know, I need [00:28:00] to I need to focus on having that, having that excellence and that brand. And so [00:28:05] yeah, it’s a it’s a balance. It’s certainly a balance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, you don’t [00:28:10] get to 24 practices without trusting people. Yeah. You know that you’re [00:28:15] making. You’re making that you’re this control freak. I mean, you I’m sure you are. But you [00:28:20] don’t get to 24 practices without trusting a bunch. A bunch of people. No no no no no. [00:28:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: And also when when the times are half tough. Like when it was tough. Yeah. In [00:28:30] 23, those three people were mentioned, you know, they stayed. They stayed. [00:28:35] And where everyone else went, everyone else was quick to leave. You know, they [00:28:40] trusted me, you know, and it’s hard to trust someone. It’s hard when you turn around to someone and say, you know what? We’re [00:28:45] we’re at the bottom now, but please trust me, we’re going to we’re going to get back. You [00:28:50] know, it takes a lot for people to. And so I’m very I’m very grateful, [00:28:55] um, to especially to those who into all that. And so there’s a lot of others actually that did, that did trust me [00:29:00] at that point in time because some because the banks didn’t the banks were close to be like, no, no, no, [00:29:05] that’s not gonna work. How are you going to pull this back? How are you going to go from performing a year end [00:29:10] Around 65% of your NHS target. To [00:29:15] 110% the next year, because no group in in the [00:29:20] UK has ever done that before, has ever flipped that around that easily and that quickly before. Yeah. And we did, um. [00:29:25]

Payman Langroudi: What was the reason for underperforming the contract and did [00:29:30] you see that? Did you realise it quick enough or did you realise it too late or.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Realise it too late? [00:29:35]

Payman Langroudi: So was it you weren’t keeping your eye on the numbers.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wasn’t keeping my eye on the numbers? Yeah. Focusing [00:29:40] on other stuff around, not keeping the core principles of the business in place, which I [00:29:45] used to, uh, at the beginning, um, the UDA delivery, the private revenue delivery, [00:29:50] uh, the um, diary utilisation, focusing on other stuff like marketing [00:29:55] and Instagram and all this kind of stuff and going, going that way and then not keeping [00:30:00] or not keeping track of that and then realising it too late and then trying to claw it back at the end and then thinking, [00:30:05] yeah, we should better claw it back because most people do. And then realising, oh, know. Actually, we’re not going to [00:30:10] call this back. And then once it’s too late, it’s too late. Um, and then I think [00:30:15] me taking my eye off the ball as a CEO for a period of time, for about six months, [00:30:20] you know, focusing on that and not being hell bent and focussed on, on the business, um, [00:30:25] I think I think then led to, led to that kind of downfall happens.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:30:30] happens, doesn’t it? I mean, over a period of years, I think back to times [00:30:35] where I, you know, just just wasn’t feeling it in the same way. And you’ve [00:30:40] changed a lot since the last time you were on. So last time you were on, you were giant. [00:30:45] Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were huge guy.

Ashkan Pitchforth: £250. [00:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And now I’m 125. Half the [00:30:55] weight I’ve lost. Yeah. Pretty much half my body weight. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Talk me through what happened.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So, [00:31:00] yeah, I mean, I just, I mean, in 2020. So I think you would [00:31:05] have tracked back. So when I went to university, Versity. Um, I started I started bodybuilding [00:31:10] during that period of time and, and, and got to a and [00:31:15] got to a big weight, good physique and then met my, uh, met a girl [00:31:20] at the time at uni who then later became my wife. Um, and um, but during [00:31:25] that period of time at uni, you know, taking, taking anabolic steroids because there’s no way you [00:31:30] can physically get to that size of muscle. You [00:31:35] can get to that size of fat, but of muscle, pure quality muscle without taking peds [00:31:40] performance enhancing drugs. Um, and doing that.

Payman Langroudi: Took me [00:31:45] through. Took me through what what does what do anabolic steroids do? Do they help with recovery? [00:31:50] Yeah. Is that what it is.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Well there’s so peds part of PEDs are anabolic [00:31:55] steroids. It’s a part of it. It’s anabolic steroids. Help with recovery, help with muscle [00:32:00] growth. Um, because the body is limited, you’re limited to the hormones. It’s. [00:32:05] The growth is related to how much growth hormone you have in your body, how much testosterone you have in your body, [00:32:10] which is driving muscle repair. Um, so there’s that. Um, [00:32:15] but then there’s other peds that exist, um, that also help with, uh, [00:32:20] performance. Um, you know, like, um, levothyroxine is an example, [00:32:25] you know, stimulating your thyroid, obviously, to reduce your body fat, um, and [00:32:30] other things that would reduce, like your water retention and all that kind of stuff. So there’s a combination, there’s a cocktail [00:32:35] almost. And, um, some of them are tablet form, some of them are injectables. [00:32:40] Um, and um.

Payman Langroudi: So, I mean, you, I [00:32:45] guess, researched all of this. Yeah. And spoke to people and so on. Yeah. What [00:32:50] was were you sort of single mindedly obsessed with becoming as big as [00:32:55] possible with the minimum body fat and not thinking about consequences of that? [00:33:00]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Well, I think it relates back to having body dysmorphia, which is I still have. But I’ve learned to control. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: But did you even recognise it as that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Not that. Not at that time. Now, having gone through. What were.

Payman Langroudi: You thinking? You [00:33:10] just think I’m just gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Now I look in [00:33:15] the mirror every morning. When I look in the mirror, I look in the mirror and think, man, I don’t like the [00:33:20] person that’s looking back at me either. I think I’m too fat at the moment, or I’m thinking I’m too skinny. Um, I [00:33:25] think my nose is too big or my ears stick out too much, or, you know, my eyebrows are too wonky. So you know, you’re [00:33:30] as when you’ve got body dysmorphia. You’re constantly criticising yourself, even though you might look okay. Um, [00:33:35] so, um, back then, in having built a dysmorphia, [00:33:40] as I look at myself and think, I need more confidence, maybe the more confidence is getting bigger. Developing [00:33:45] that ultimate physique, that that beauty. Um, and then also loving art [00:33:50] and anatomy and being able to look at your body and to sculptor it and sculpt, sculpt it. Really. [00:33:55] Um, and, um, so that’s what I got into then.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:34:00] the way you describe it, it’s kind of a moving target, right? In a way. So let’s say you [00:34:05] hyper focus on your ears for the sake of the argument. Then you pin them back. [00:34:10] Then you start focusing on something else. Yeah, that’s that’s the nature of it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: That’s the nature of body dysmorphia. [00:34:15] You. It’s very hard to cure. You’ve got to learn to control it. It’s very hard to cure it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:34:20] even though you know that, you still fall into it, right? Yeah. I mean, I guess it’s like knowing cigarettes [00:34:25] are bad for you, but still smoking them, right? It’s a similar thing.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes, exactly. Um, [00:34:30] and, uh. And. Yeah, so, so I, I mean, in terms going back to your question of how [00:34:35] did I do it? You get a coach. They teach you, you know, you you learn these things, you read things [00:34:40] in books and magazines and all that kind of stuff. What to do, what to take. Um, it’s kind of like a very dark. [00:34:45]

Payman Langroudi: And where did you get from a dealer? Is that how it works?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, [00:34:50] it’s not a backstreet place you go to, you know, you you leave a you leave some money in an envelope, and [00:34:55] then you and then you pick it up, and then you wink at someone, you just order them online. And the thing with [00:35:00] the thing with anabolic steroids is they’re not illegal in the UK to buy and possess and to take illegal [00:35:05] to sell. So. So yes, there’s nothing illegal in what you do. Um, that’s [00:35:10] why I didn’t, you know, that’s why I did it. I’ve never actually done any recreational drugs. I’ve never done anything illegal in [00:35:15] my life in that sense. Um, so. Yeah, so, so so I did it when I was at university for a period of time. [00:35:20] But then when I met, uh, my girlfriend at the time, who later became my wife, obviously [00:35:25] learning her influence, actually [00:35:30] feeling loved made me feel, actually, I don’t need this. Maybe this is something inside that’s actually [00:35:35] more important than the way you look as an outside. Um, and so therefore, I was I was [00:35:40] clean for 13 years during my marriage. But then at the end of the marriage, when it [00:35:45] was breaking down, then the thoughts come back into your mind of maybe the marriage is breaking down [00:35:50] because of the way I look. Therefore I need to take something in order to then change my physique [00:35:55] and improve my physique.

Payman Langroudi: It’s all fell back into it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Exactly. And then I fell back into it. Right. I’m [00:36:00] actually thinking it’s because I worked too much and I didn’t. Actually, uh, devote. I mean, the marriage [00:36:05] broke down simply because of me. It wasn’t. It wasn’t for my, uh, for my ex wife. And, [00:36:10] um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good I mean, the other one, you know, sort of fetishise that. Thing. But [00:36:15] is it to do with sort of this level of obsession? Because it must take to go to go? I mean, [00:36:20] I was at your ten year anniversary in ten years to go to 24, [00:36:25] actually, you got to 24 even before ten years before.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, we did years before.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe six, seven [00:36:30] years. Right? Yeah. To get from one practice to 24 in 6, [00:36:35] seven years takes a degree of obsession, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: And that obsession [00:36:40] comes with sacrifice.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so, okay, we talked about the physical sacrifices [00:36:45] and the health care and mental health and all that. Explain to me what happened to your marriage. [00:36:50] I mean, were you not there for her or not there for life events or. [00:36:55] Yeah. Is that what it was?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, the thing with I think when you’re, when [00:37:00] you’ve got, when you’ve got a personality like mine, which is ones that you would say maybe describes [00:37:05] someone that’s entrepreneurial and driven and hard working is that I will work [00:37:10] harder than anyone else to win. I’ll do anything to win. And even if it sacrifices, [00:37:15] you’re putting my health on the line. I’ll do anything. Um, it’s something that’s inbuilt. [00:37:20] I don’t know what it is. Um, if you give. If you say. If you give me a challenge, I’ll do it [00:37:25] no matter what. Um, and the thing, obviously, with growing the business and trying to be the best. And that’s what I wanted [00:37:30] to do at the start, it was more of organic and then wanted to go into it thinking, oh, actually, no, no, no. Why can’t I have [00:37:35] ten practices? And then when you get to ten, why can’t I have 12? Why can’t I have 15? When you hit 10 million turnover, [00:37:40] why can’t I have 15 million? Why can’t I have 20 million? You keep going and keep going and keep going. And so therefore, [00:37:45] you just have to put in the hours and the time. Um, and then feel. And then you feel guilty when [00:37:50] you’re not putting that time and then it’s.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And then things give. So yeah, it was, it was me simply just working. [00:37:55] Working constantly. Working all the time. Um, you know, on my laptop at home. [00:38:00] Um, on my phone, um, all the time. All the time. And then. And then, because you’re [00:38:05] building and growing the business, you can’t just do that side of things. You then have to do the extracurricular activities. [00:38:10] Like, I was a clinical advisor for three years for the NHS to learn from. My point of view was to learn about [00:38:15] how the inner workings of the NHS work and the GDS contracts and all the regulations, things like that. So then I’ve [00:38:20] got to do that on as well as on the side, you know, as well as doing my own job, you [00:38:25] know. So it’s just I just put, I just put the hours in and didn’t devote [00:38:30] my time, didn’t have that break for family. And then eventually it gives, [00:38:35] you know, that other person. Then, you know, you just end up neglecting them and you grow apart. [00:38:40] That’s exactly what happened. We we just we just grew. It was too far. We were too far.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:45] again noticed too late.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Noticed too late from my point of view. Noticed too late. All the signals were there. [00:38:50] But I was stupid. Which is. Yeah, it’s one of those. It’s.

Payman Langroudi: What have [00:38:55] you learned to forgive yourself around these sort of situations or. No. Does it still bother [00:39:00] you? Does it still?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. You know, I don’t. I’m very critical of myself. [00:39:05] I don’t forgive myself for anything, you know, um, I don’t I don’t think you can I my belief. [00:39:10] I don’t think you can forgive yourself for anything. I think I need, I need the person that you harm [00:39:15] or any the person that is affected by your actions can forgive you. You can’t forgive yourself [00:39:20] for things. That’s my opinion anyway.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, you must have thought [00:39:25] about this, right? Like, where does it come from? Why why [00:39:30] why do you have to be obsessed with winning? Where does that come from? Was is [00:39:35] there something in your childhood that you thought? I mean, the previous pod you were saying you’re both. Your parents worked [00:39:40] their butts off and you learnt hard work from them both. Nurses, right? [00:39:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You learnt hard work from them? Yeah, but was there. I mean, something [00:39:50] in your childhood that said I’ve got to break through. Breakthrough. You’ve got a brother, right? Yes. Is he like that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. [00:39:55] Completely.

Payman Langroudi: Very different.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Very different.

Payman Langroudi: He’s like me and my brother. Very different too.

Ashkan Pitchforth: He lives [00:40:00] a relaxed life, which is good in that respect. You know, he’s amazing [00:40:05] life, you know? He watches TV. I never. I can’t watch TV all the time.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:40:10] does he do?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So he’s a qualified dentist, but he focuses more on the Botox [00:40:15] and fillers and the. And the aesthetic, um, face stuff. [00:40:20] So not actually the physical drilling and filling and things, but I don’t know. I mean, linking it back to going [00:40:25] through rehab for the, the the steroids, the drug addiction, [00:40:30] the body dysmorphia. I think I think, yeah, I kind of like touched on it with some [00:40:35] therapists that I think it was childhood of just, I [00:40:40] don’t know, maybe it’s the upbringing of just my parents didn’t [00:40:45] force me. No, no, no, they didn’t force me to, to to to do well. But That [00:40:50] they they almost said that, you know, the world is your [00:40:55] oyster and there’s no ceiling. So if you want to achieve, go and achieve. Keep pushing yourself. And I think [00:41:00] having that drive at a young age just maybe just seeps in and you just can’t let [00:41:05] it go. Um, but that’s not a bad thing in all respect. In some respects, it’s not a bad [00:41:10] thing.

Payman Langroudi: Everything has good and bad in it. You know, that’s that’s what I’ve come to realise that your [00:41:15] biggest strength is your biggest weakness. Yes. You know, so whether, you know, it’s very easy to [00:41:20] say, is it a good thing or a bad thing? Without realising, it’s a good and a bad thing. Yeah. [00:41:25] Yeah. Most things. Yeah. Right. Most things. You could. You could be the kindest guy in the world. [00:41:30] And then when it comes to firing people, you can’t fire them because you’re too kind.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: You know, you don’t want to change, ruin someone’s life or something, you know, like. So even something as kindness, [00:41:40] something as beautiful as kindness can be a massive weakness. Of course. Yeah. You know, [00:41:45] and you alluded to it before. If someone’s not doing their job. Yeah. You know, for the business, you have [00:41:50] to sort of act.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so that’s one [00:41:55] thing, but have you read the I mean, for me, it would be the Tick Tock, the [00:42:00] book. There’s a book that palliative care nurse, she goes around, [00:42:05] um, nursing homes talking to people who are definitely [00:42:10] going to die.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Oh, no.

Payman Langroudi: And ask them what their biggest regrets are in life. Wow. And then she’d [00:42:15] written a book, The Five Regrets of the dying.

Ashkan Pitchforth: What are they?

Payman Langroudi: So look, most of them you [00:42:20] can guess, right? Things that I wish I stayed more in touch with friends and family. Yeah. I wish I worked less, [00:42:25] by the way. Um, I’d say that’s more an employee mindset than [00:42:30] a than a business owner mindset. Yeah. Um, but the one that I want you to focus on is. I wish [00:42:35] I’d allowed myself to be more happy. Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:40] And and, you know, this question of. Progress [00:42:45] And contentment being in opposition? [00:42:50] Yes. Yeah. A lot of us have that feeling that if I’m content, that means I’m not [00:42:55] progressing.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes. Static. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But when you look back [00:43:00] or when I look back, ten years ago, I was a very happy person. [00:43:05] But I wasn’t allowing myself to be happy. Yes. Because I thought I need to progress. And [00:43:10] so then you you fast forward ten years from now, you’re [00:43:15] going to look back on today and think, My God, I was happy. Yes. Back [00:43:20] then. Yeah. And, you know, managing that tension [00:43:25] between contentment and progress. Yeah. You [00:43:30] know, for years and years and years, I used to fool myself in thinking, you know, pleasure [00:43:35] and happiness were in the same area. Yes. But they’re not.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:43:40] definitely not. And contentment. Totally different area. Completely, completely [00:43:45] different area to pleasure and happiness. Yeah, but, you know, solving that as a, as a, as a business owner, [00:43:50] it kind of sounds a bit weak to say I’m content. Yeah, [00:43:55] but contentment must be peace must be the goal, [00:44:00] right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think about all that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I [00:44:05] think it’s it’s in weight. I [00:44:10] think life is too. There’s two parts of life. There’s there’s work life. There’s non-work [00:44:15] life. Um. So I [00:44:20] love my work. I love it. Um. I’m passionate. Um. [00:44:25] And that’s why I want to keep on progressing. Because it just drives me to wake up and to keep going. [00:44:30] So am I content in work life and [00:44:35] will I ever be content? No, I don’t think I would. Um, because I want that [00:44:40] to be a driver, to be a motivation.

Payman Langroudi: But there you go again, telling [00:44:45] me that they’re in opposition to each other.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, they are in opposition. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I get you, I get you when [00:44:50] you go to the gym and build muscle. If you’re content, you’re not going to turn up anymore. You’re not going.

Ashkan Pitchforth: To.

Payman Langroudi: Push as [00:44:55] hard as you have to push. Yeah. Like I’ve never really done it. But I’m sure sometimes you’re, you’re you’re pushing [00:45:00] a weight that literally might rip something or you know, that a content person isn’t [00:45:05] about to do that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, no, no. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so I get that. But at the same time, [00:45:10] right. The let’s say you get $1 billion [00:45:15] exit, let’s imagine it. Yeah. Well, the next day you’re still [00:45:20] ash. Yeah. You still got the same everything. Yeah. Except you got $1 billion in the bank. [00:45:25] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And you could you could chalk it up and say, [00:45:30] hey, I did. My parents said I could achieve anything, and I did achieve $1 billion. Okay. [00:45:35] So, like what what what’s what does that [00:45:40] solve? Like.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No it.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t. But but then what I’m saying about childhood is maybe there is [00:45:45] a deficit from childhood. We all have them. We all have them.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: A deficit [00:45:50] from childhood where you’re trying to fill it with this achievement. Yeah. Let’s say.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No, [00:45:55] I completely agree. I think you’re right. I think you’re right. I don’t think I’ll ever be content. Even if I had [00:46:00] a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just not in you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Billion dollars or something like that. I just don’t think I’d ever be content. I’d just keep. I just keep [00:46:05] wanting to go and focus on the next thing and the next idea and the next project. And yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:46:10] got to do what we’re good at as well, right? Yeah. If you’re not good at contentment, it’s never going to work for you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But [00:46:15] then also, maybe those people are the visionaries, you know, the pioneers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:20]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Which is not a bad thing, you know, because if you’re a pioneer or something and you’re a visionary, you’ll never be content. [00:46:25] Anything you do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, apparently Gandhi’s family used to hate him. Yeah, but, [00:46:30] you know. There we go again. So he’s a good [00:46:35] thing or a bad thing, you know, it’s like. It just is. Yeah. Let’s talk about Problems [00:46:40] you’ve been having with the GDC?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, well.

Payman Langroudi: You want to discuss.

Ashkan Pitchforth: That? Yeah. Of course. [00:46:45] Yeah, sure. Yes, definitely 100%. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Take me through.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It. Well, yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:46:50] did it start?

Ashkan Pitchforth: In their eyes, I’m a bad boy, you know, uh, the allegations go back to over [00:46:55] seven years ago, you know, from. The thing is, is that there’s [00:47:00] been no patient issues at all. Um, I’m not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I think I’m a very good clinician. [00:47:05] You know, I’m a clinician. You know, I’m not. You know, I don’t do high end, [00:47:10] you know, highly street level of work. But I care for my patients. I [00:47:15] care for them no matter what. Um, my patients with all dignity and respect and humility. [00:47:20] Um, so there’s been no patient issues. Um, uh, but [00:47:25] obviously the issue obviously is, is the, the taking of the steroids, which they think is.

Payman Langroudi: How did they [00:47:30] come to hear about that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, because, um, unfortunately. Well, not unfortunately unfortunately. [00:47:35] But I talk about it to people because I’m not, you know, I’m not so much embarrassed about [00:47:40] it. And at one point it was it was a bit too bloody obvious. And, you know, because you’re huge when you’re sitting there and you’ve got [00:47:45] 21 inch arms, you know, you want it, you know, in a triple XL doesn’t even fit you anymore. [00:47:50] Um, you know, you’ve got you’ve got muscle on top of muscle on top of muscle and it’s all just bulging [00:47:55] out. I mean, it’s, it’s it’s it’s obvious. Um, and also I do like to, [00:48:00] um, um, you know, I as part of being a, you [00:48:05] know, part of having that athletic ability or that focus on the way you look and things like that. [00:48:10] You know, I take photos and post them on my Instagram and, and sometimes they reveal [00:48:15] a lot of flesh, but nothing that is illegal. But according to maybe the gdc’s [00:48:20] eyes, that’s maybe not the most professional of things to do.

Payman Langroudi: But I don’t think what happened. Did you see? Look at your [00:48:25] Instagram.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, no. So obviously employees, ex-employees, there might have been a bit disgruntled or write to them and say, [00:48:30] oh, did you know that one of your registrants takes anabolic steroids, which is again, not illegal to do? Um, [00:48:35] also, do you know, obviously.

Payman Langroudi: You bought like you fired someone and they were pissed.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Off. Exactly. Because some [00:48:40] people just want to stab stab you in the back. And not necessarily actually me, but obviously because I’m the face of it, [00:48:45] I have the brand. I take the full whack, almost. So, um, so, you [00:48:50] know, they don’t report a clinical director, you know, or, or the compliance manager [00:48:55] or something. There’s this GDC register, and they report, I get it. Um, and [00:49:00] over the over over years, it’s built up and built up and built up and allegations built up from. But [00:49:05] the thing is, which I guess the GDC don’t realise is that is that is that those people represent [00:49:10] less than 1% of the people that have worked for me. And you’re not going to always please 1%. And [00:49:15] actually those 1% are the ones that actually I don’t think they should [00:49:20] work in industry at all because they were utterly useless in the sense that not useless [00:49:25] in the sense that they, you know, they don’t put patient care first. [00:49:30] So I’m maintaining standards and chucking them out, and they’re trying to get back at me and the GDC, not look [00:49:35] at it and in thinking, actually. Actually, let’s look at it. And you’re the awful one here. He’s doing he’s doing [00:49:40] stuff for the greater good. So they have to investigate.

Payman Langroudi: So someone said something and [00:49:45] then.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And also things and things get misinterpreted because in the original, [00:49:50] when we originally set up this organisation, you know, no one teaches [00:49:55] you of how to act as the top is essentially like [00:50:00] the top guy, the CEO. Um, so, you know, at the [00:50:05] start, the organisation is almost like a kind of like a Google, kind [00:50:10] of like Apple, kind of like a very relaxed head office kind of situation and [00:50:15] scenario, you know. So one of the allegations is, I think it states that I was in a state [00:50:20] of undress in a common area. And what that relates to is that I went [00:50:25] and had my nipples pierced, came back to the office. Um, the girls [00:50:30] in the office were like, oh, great, ash, let’s see, you know, and there was about eight of them there. Um, [00:50:35] and I think one was a newbie. I said to everyone, is [00:50:40] everyone happy for me to take my top off for people to see? Yeah. Everyone was like, yes, yes, please, please, please done it. [00:50:45] Didn’t realise that newbie took a photo secretly. Um, and [00:50:50] then when we had to let her go because, um, you know, she she was, she was supposed to be a property manager, [00:50:55] and she couldn’t. I mean, I didn’t I don’t think she realised what a brick was, you know, that’s how useless she was.

Ashkan Pitchforth: She then [00:51:00] sent that to the GDC and said, this guy, you know, undresses himself in front of women [00:51:05] in the office. So it’s it’s then used against me. It’s flipped. [00:51:10] So having to have that experience now, if I were to come to the office and if [00:51:15] I’ve had something like a tattoo done, and if the girls say, I can have a look, I’ll be like, you know, I just wouldn’t even it wouldn’t be a topic of [00:51:20] conversation because you’ve learnt going through ten years of learning and the experience because that’s [00:51:25] not written in a book. There’s no rule of what to do. Um, but back then I trusted people. Back [00:51:30] then it was very relaxed environments. Back then it was okay. The three goals that I mentioned, [00:51:35] you know, that work very closely with. Yes. If we were together, I would trust them. You know, I would I [00:51:40] would be like, yeah, let’s look at this tattoo about that, you know, because you learn to trust them with your life. Um, and [00:51:45] some of our clinical directors and the same thing, um, Emile, he’s worked for me for years. [00:51:50] He’s, uh, you know, we have such a laugh together. Um, but, um, so. [00:51:55] Yeah. So, again, those kind of allegations build up, and the dude didn’t do anything for seven years.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then all of a [00:52:00] sudden, I think they just thought, you know what? Let’s just try and make a make a thing of this. And then [00:52:05] and then it’s. And then I have this, this, this, this, this case going on to answer really. So [00:52:10] at the moment it’s at the interim orders stage where they kind of need to work out. Do they need to sanction [00:52:15] me. But then again that’s usually because they have to sanction you to put conditions [00:52:20] on you because they’re your threat to patients. If there’s not been a patient complaint, then what’s the issue? So [00:52:25] so it’s going backwards and forwards. It’s mine’s a very difficult and it doesn’t [00:52:30] fit the box. You know, usually it’s the GDC is you muck up with patients, you don’t take [00:52:35] radiographs, you don’t diagnose caries, or you’re rude to patient or you’re inappropriate to a patient. It’s a very clear cut, [00:52:40] you know, level of steps you’re going through. Mine is okay. He’s [00:52:45] he’s on his personal Instagram. He’s got his top off. Is [00:52:50] that no patients haven’t complained about that. Patients actually loved [00:52:55] it and commented and you know but then but then is that [00:53:00] deemed then unprofessional. And this is kind of that where you’re battling backwards [00:53:05] and forwards. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: So. Has this been a series of complaints to the GDC [00:53:10] from people like that? Yeah, yeah. So do you think you rub those people up the wrong way, or do [00:53:15] you think it’s. I mean, I know you’re probably an easy target. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get [00:53:20] that. But are you rubbing people up the wrong way? Are you firing people in an aggressive [00:53:25] way or, you know, to get a series?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, I think I think the thing [00:53:30] is the difference. I think for me, in terms of in [00:53:35] terms of recruitment and organisation, is that a lot of people, what they would do is when they hire someone [00:53:40] and they’re not fit for the role, they don’t [00:53:45] end it straight away. They give that person a chance. So many [00:53:50] chances. Yeah. And then over a period of a year, there’s no improvement. [00:53:55] And that person that’s hired them ends up doing the job anyway. Yeah. And you’ve got nowhere. Then you’re firing them after a year. [00:54:00] So you might as well do it after two days. Yeah. There’s there’s no point stringing someone along for that [00:54:05] period of time. Yeah. And I’m quite quick in the sense that if they take them on, if I spend time with someone, [00:54:10] if I, if I clock their ethos, their vision is not aligned with mine, there’s no point in continuing. [00:54:15] So let’s just call it quits. Um, and I think also so that’s, that’s one [00:54:20] flip side of the coin and the other flip side of coin, which we don’t do now. No person in our organisation is a locum. [00:54:25] We hired a lot of locums in the past. A lot of locum dentists, some of them are great. I’ve worked [00:54:30] with some locums that stayed with me for, you know, ten years and then converted to [00:54:35] become almost like a permanent associate. But a lot of locums out there, they just are just they’re locums [00:54:40] for a reason. They can’t get a permanent job because no one wants to have them permanently. And [00:54:45] they’re just God awful. And I tell them, because I’m a clinician myself, I just I’m not being funny. [00:54:50] But, you know, you were contracted to do, say, 30 Udas today. You’ve done two because you’ve [00:54:55] rebooked all of your band one scale and polishes. You had half an hour for an appointment. What was the [00:55:00] point of that? Because you just couldn’t be bothered. So and unfortunately, I tell them sometimes the truth [00:55:05] which they don’t want to.

Payman Langroudi: Hear, you’re a bit too direct.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’m quite direct. I’m quite. Which is good in a way. Um, [00:55:10] and now everyone that everyone, everyone that works with me obviously is [00:55:15] the elite almost. And the thing that I get a lot of groups out there, [00:55:20] what they would do is they almost take people on because they’re desperate. Whereas I’m [00:55:25] always like, run it like a football team, you know? I will take you on if you pass the test. Almost. [00:55:30] If you’re good, you come in. If you’re not good, then why would I have you? You know, you don’t have a football team that’s made [00:55:35] up of 11 bad players. Um, your top squad? Almost. You want them to be the [00:55:40] elite so you can take on. There’s a lot of groups out there. Won’t. And so therefore we’re very I’m very [00:55:45] tight with that. But then again, those people that get then disgruntled and upset [00:55:50] because they had to be let go, their way of taking out their frustrations rather than reflecting and thinking, [00:55:55] you know, actually, what can I do to improve myself? They think, okay, let me just let me just if [00:56:00] you sent me an email that can possibly be twisted into sense that maybe [00:56:05] he was trying to be a bit sarcastic or a bit, you know, a bit eccentric, then maybe let’s send that [00:56:10] across.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And, and then the GDC kind of pick up on that. Oh, yeah. Well, you shouldn’t have said that. And, you [00:56:15] know, and my, my, my, my outside of work now it’s very hard to differentiate [00:56:20] between, you know, there’s a fine line, isn’t there, between who you are outside of work and who [00:56:25] you are inside of work. Especially given that my whole life is work. So then the fine [00:56:30] line gets crossed and my sense of humour is that of a Ricky Gervais. You know, [00:56:35] it’s quite, quite sarcastic, quite dark. I hate I don’t [00:56:40] like slapstick comedy. I like, I like intellectual comedy. [00:56:45] Um, unfortunately, then if you use that inside work, sometimes people take that in the wrong way [00:56:50] because they don’t understand that actually you’re coming across to be quite humorous and quite witty in that sort of [00:56:55] thing. Um, so that’s another thing I’ve learned over the period of time, is that sometimes you’ve actually almost got [00:57:00] to be, which frustrates me. You’ve got to be. You’ve got to almost be an actor when you’re in work. Sometimes [00:57:05] you can’t let out your true self in all, in all things. But, [00:57:10] um, well.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s interesting. It’s it’s the difference between a small Start-Up. [00:57:15] Yes. Yeah. And where you literally can do whatever you like. And that’s almost [00:57:20] the brilliant part about it. You’re almost like a it’s almost a piece of art [00:57:25] where you’re kind of expressing yourself. Yeah. And a corporate, which is [00:57:30] what you are where it’s very different. Right? Very, very different. [00:57:35] And, you know, you’re right. You learn as you as you as you go through it. I’m the [00:57:40] same as you. I’ve said things that I shouldn’t have said or or whatever. Um, [00:57:45] but you come to learn that, you know, even body language is gigantic. [00:57:50] It’s a gigantic thing. Yeah. Yeah. Little wave. It’s a huge thing. [00:57:55]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s true.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but, you know, [00:58:00] I, I want to get back to the GDC thing. So what what is going to happen [00:58:05] next? You’re in the middle of it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. So I think I’ve got interim or [00:58:10] interim committee hearing or orders. Committee is the end of June. [00:58:15] And that decides whether they need to put any sanctions. And then hopefully there won’t [00:58:20] be any. Apart from maybe, um, continuance of testing. Clean [00:58:25] for steroids, which is what I’m doing now, is fine. And then I think the actual final [00:58:30] hearing probably will come a year down the line. But again, you [00:58:35] know, it doesn’t it doesn’t. Whatever conditions they put on now won’t affect me doing the [00:58:40] job I’m doing. That’s the difference. That’s the thing because it’s not patient related. And that’s why it’s kind of [00:58:45] they’re having difficulty because they can’t get involved in the commercial side. They can’t tell you. Oh by the way, don’t [00:58:50] send an email to a staff member. Yeah [00:58:55] that’s the thing. And if I go into so I think one of the allegations, which I think is absolutely ludicrous, [00:59:00] is I tore down a poster in a practice. Right. [00:59:05] So I mean, I mean, that’s a bit pathetic.

Payman Langroudi: Pulled it off the wall. [00:59:10]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, right. Now what they don’t realise.

Payman Langroudi: Is that good with.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Them. Well, yeah. Exactly. But also [00:59:15] what they don’t realise is, is that I’m particular. So if there’s going to be any, anything displayed in a practice. It has [00:59:20] to meet the it has to be approved because it could be wrong information. And also it has to look nice. It has to be laminated. It can’t [00:59:25] just be a shitty bit of paper. And I went into one practice [00:59:30] in in Southampton, and the manager at the time decided to display something that [00:59:35] was completely non-compliant. So I just went up to it and I just went and took it down. I just [00:59:40] literally just. But yeah, because it was stuck up there. So obviously he’s not got pins in it. So I’m gently [00:59:45] undo the pins. I went in there and said, what’s this? Who done this? Oh, I did this. I said, you do realise this actually is [00:59:50] not in part of the regulations what you’ve written? And then he was like, oh, oh yeah. I didn’t realise I was like, [00:59:55] okay, but I’ve got to take it down. And I took it down. But obviously because he left in a bad way, he said, oh, he came in and [01:00:00] tore down a poster. So again, it’s this, it’s these pathetic kind of like things [01:00:05] that if the GDC actually looked into this and sat down with a case examiner, [01:00:10] with clinical dentists, with people who have knowledge and, and say, actually, okay, what is it exactly that [01:00:15] happened? So not what’s portrayed that happen because someone’s peed off. Because obviously we had to let that manager go. [01:00:20]

Ashkan Pitchforth: He was useless. Um, and funny enough, he goes and works for some of [01:00:25] our competitors. You know, who we turf out, and other people that are desperate end up taking in, [01:00:30] um, and, um, they don’t look at it and say, actually, what’s, what’s really happened [01:00:35] and then look and look at and think, actually, this is fine. This is not bad. This is okay. [01:00:40] This is what happens. This is normal. Well, how would you how would you expect him to have got rid of that. [01:00:45] And he needed to get rid of that there and then because it was non-compliant. So he had to take it down immediately. It [01:00:50] was stuck with Sellotape. So he had to tear it off the wall. It’s his building. [01:00:55] He owns the place. It’s not someone else’s. What should [01:01:00] he do at the dead of night where no one sees? Because I think that’s what the other allegation was. He tore down [01:01:05] a post in front of patients. Yeah. And also it was an A4 piece of paper. [01:01:10] So it wasn’t a great big poster like you probably have visited me gripping this great big thing and tearing it down, this paper [01:01:15] flying everywhere. And patients are you know, it’s falling onto patients and God knows what’s happening. It’s not any [01:01:20] of that stuff. It’s just such a simple thing that they just. But unfortunately, when you rise [01:01:25] up in the world, some of the regulators like to bring you back down and just [01:01:30] kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, dude, but do you accept that sometimes the way [01:01:35] you say something or the way you do something affects [01:01:40] the situation more? I mean, we can clinically look at it and [01:01:45] say, well, what happened? He took a poster down from his own building. Yeah, I accept that. That’s the way you’re [01:01:50] going to talk about it when someone’s accusing you of something. But but do you also acknowledge [01:01:55] the other side of it that, you know, you can say the same thing twice in two different [01:02:00] ways and have a totally different effect on someone? Do you accept [01:02:05] it?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, yeah I do, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think sometimes the sarcasm or something rub people up?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, [01:02:10] that’s why I don’t do that. Yeah. I mean when it comes to the sarcasm now I don’t, I don’t. I’ve [01:02:15] learned a lot. Um, but unfortunately, what’s done is done. And you’ve got to kind of. Then just [01:02:20] accept it, move on, change a bit. Um, but now I can understand that sometimes [01:02:25] some of the things might have. You know, impacted people, [01:02:30] but it’s only been for the greater good of the organisation [01:02:35] and the patients at the end of the day, as opposed to anything else but that. Um, so, [01:02:40] so so yeah. But no, I do accept it. Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why are you so happy to talk about [01:02:45] all this? Is it? Do you feel like there’s information about [01:02:50] you that people should know or like or. I mean, you’re right [01:02:55] in that. It sounds. Some of it sounds very petty. Yeah. And the fact that our, you know, our, our [01:03:00] governing bodies sort of talking about posters and so it’s [01:03:05] a bit mad. It’s a bit mad. Yeah. Is that why you’re happy to talk about it? I mean, like, most [01:03:10] people don’t want to talk about their that GDC situation.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Why? That’s the thing. Really? Once, [01:03:15] you know, um, be honest, be open and talk about it so other [01:03:20] people learn maybe from it. Um, and also it’s not it’s not embarrassing. [01:03:25] If you do something in life, then own it, stand up and own it. Um, and [01:03:30] you know, you’re always going to come across hurdles, regulatory problems, issues, whether it’s the NHS, [01:03:35] CQC, GDC, you shouldn’t be embarrassed by anything that you do. Um, [01:03:40] I’m not embarrassed about anything I do in life because this is part of the journey of life. You [01:03:45] know, sometimes there’s been embarrassing situations, but that probably we all embarrassed [01:03:50] about. But then you can still laugh about it. There’s still still some, uh, some some humour [01:03:55] in everything. If you find the humour in something, then it makes things better. Um, so [01:04:00] I’m. Yeah. I’m not. I’m quite flamboyant in that way. I’ll talk about anything [01:04:05] that involves myself. Um, of course, if something involves or there’s a connection [01:04:10] with someone else, then I have to. Not because that’s that’s their gig and I don’t want to breach their confidentiality [01:04:15] and things like that. But for my own stuff, I’m all happy to chat about [01:04:20] anything.

Payman Langroudi: On this pod. We like to talk about mistakes.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:04:25] firstly, what was the darkest day in this journey? [01:04:30] This ten year journey?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wow. I mean, the darkest [01:04:35] day in this ten year journey was, was it was kind of beginning of June [01:04:40] 23rd.

Payman Langroudi: That clawback situation.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That was the that [01:04:45] was the dark, you know. So I had a I had to [01:04:50] on the 26th of March 23. Um, obviously when I was, you [01:04:55] know, steroid up to the lines, you know, um, had had had more, [01:05:00] had had more steroids in me than a horse, to be honest. Um, you know, I had [01:05:05] a I had to have a cardioversion, you know, I had atrial fibrillation. So my heart just hit [01:05:10] 200 beats per minute and wouldn’t stop.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wouldn’t stop for about 2 [01:05:15] or 3 days. Then I collapsed at work. Had to go to hospital and [01:05:20] they tried to reverse it by the normal routes, you know, um, giving you the drugs and [01:05:25] everything. Obviously, in order to try and almost, like, settle your heart. Nothing worked. And then [01:05:30] the. I remember the A&E doctor peering over me at the time, and he said, right, we’re going to have to, um, [01:05:35] we’re gonna have to sedate you. Stop your heart and [01:05:40] then use a defib to restart it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And I remember looking up at him, um, [01:05:45] and I said, well, what about if you can’t restart my heart? And then I can’t remember anything after [01:05:50] that, because then they just gave me the drug and had to do it because I was getting really bad at that point in time. And then there [01:05:55] were some people, obviously, that came to the hospital that were called because I was at work. So the clinical director was there, [01:06:00] Emil, and he called um, my colleagues at the time obviously turned up [01:06:05] and ex-girlfriend and apparently I was. It didn’t reach my heart. [01:06:10] Did not restart for about half an hour. They just couldn’t restart it. Um, [01:06:15] so I came out of that, um, and [01:06:20] that was in March. And then two months later, then my ex-girlfriend [01:06:25] of two years walking out, just literally I went to work one day, came back and she just vanished and gone. [01:06:30] Tried to make contact with her and nothing. So she gave up. So [01:06:35] I felt quite on my own at that point in time, very much on my own. And then.

Payman Langroudi: The clawback [01:06:40] situation was ongoing, and.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then the clawback then hit after that. Literally a week later, we had, you know, we [01:06:45] had to deal with that. And the bank and I had to raise an incredible amount of money in [01:06:50] a very short space of time, which I didn’t have.

Payman Langroudi: And we [01:06:55] got three, £4 million you needed by day after tomorrow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, I mean, [01:07:00] it was. Yeah, it’s pretty much. Yeah, it was pretty much that. It was pretty much an impossible task, [01:07:05] an impossible task. And I remember it. Got it, got it. Got so dark. And [01:07:10] I’ve never had this thought in my life at that point in time. I just thought, what’s the point of being here anymore, really? [01:07:15] Because I can’t fix this now. I can’t actually fix this problem. I cannot fix it. [01:07:20] And I was and I felt so alone. And even though I was able, [01:07:25] I could share elements to the senior leadership team. You know, there’s some things you [01:07:30] don’t want to you don’t want to tell him because you just might think, well, even they might think, oh, you know what’s going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Want [01:07:35] to spook them?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So I was on my own I who what could I do? [01:07:40] I’d run out of all the options. And it’s at that point in time. Then I [01:07:45] almost reached out to my ex-wife, um, who’s [01:07:50] the co-founder and also co-owns the whole group as well. Um, [01:07:55] he doesn’t he doesn’t get involved with the commercial aspects of running the business, but has always been there as [01:08:00] an advisor and all this kind of stuff reached out to her. And at that point in time, I wasn’t seeing my kids as well. And [01:08:05] and she just changed it all. She just she helped. She was [01:08:10] there, started getting me clean from that point in time. You know, I think you know, what? You you know, you’ve [01:08:15] now got to sort yourself out basically. That was the kind of the, you know, when they talk about the [01:08:20] lowest point in your life, that was the low the lowest point in my life. And she fixed it all. She, she, [01:08:25] she just did everything and recharged me, almost like reignited the fire to say that. Actually, you know what? [01:08:30] You think you can’t raise this money. You can raise this money. You know, I’m not going to tell you to do it because I don’t know how to do it. Almost. [01:08:35] But, um, I can help to some degree. And I can do this, this, this, and and then I [01:08:40] just it’s almost like she just opened my eyes to be able to do that. So that was the lowest, [01:08:45] the lowest point of my whole life, let alone the career journey, the whole point of my life, because [01:08:50] I’ve never felt like I didn’t want to be on this earth at that time, but I did at that point.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve [01:08:55] got to take your hat off to her.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 101 one has to take [01:09:00] one’s hat off to her, insomuch as That’s you. That’s your ex-wife you’re talking about. That’s not your wife. Yeah. I mean, [01:09:05] often even your wife might not be able to rise to that occasion, but your ex-wife rising [01:09:10] to that occasion.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But she also does it with she. And that’s the [01:09:15] thing with this organisation is that. I sometimes. [01:09:20] Yeah, I take the, the brunt of the, the bad stuff, but also I take all the, all [01:09:25] the good stuff. So I’m the one up there winning all the awards and getting the pat on the back from [01:09:30] the banks. And you know, everyone that’s looking in and thinking, oh great, what you’ve done. But [01:09:35] she, she does everything without wanting that recognition. Yeah. I [01:09:40] think that’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: But she still owns half of it. Does she.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Yeah. She owns [01:09:45] owns half of it. And I mean, she, to be honest with you, with what she’s done, she deserves all of it. Honestly, [01:09:50] she does. You know, I just deserve to be employed as the CEO. And she deserves [01:09:55] to be the 100% shareholder and 100% of everything. You know, her involvement in the [01:10:00] crucial bits. And but that’s that’s why it’s so important to have a I think [01:10:05] someone that co-owns it or co shareholder, things like that, someone that looks at it from an outside point of view. [01:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re right that the question of should you even have a partner. Business partner. [01:10:15] Um I find it in, in the when things are bad, it’s [01:10:20] that loneliness you’re talking about, that loneliness is the issue. [01:10:25] Because, as you say, sometimes even your most senior staff can’t [01:10:30] help. Yeah, often.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s true. Whereas when things really. When the shit [01:10:35] really hits the fan. Yeah, I’m calling my my business partner and we’re like sharing [01:10:40] that. Yeah. That situation, even though that means that we have to split the profits half and half. And [01:10:45] we’re actually four people. So, you know, a quarter each, um, [01:10:50] it’s still worth it. It’s still worth it. Often, often, you know, in accelerator programs [01:10:55] they tell people to bring on a co co-founder. Yes. Um, because you need the [01:11:00] different skill sets, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: You do? I mean, she’s earned that also, right? Because she did [01:11:05] work her socks off at the start when we were associates, invested, as we both did, obviously, because it [01:11:10] was joint income almost. And and we have we share kids together and she you know, she [01:11:15] looks after them. She also works clinically as well. You know, a couple of days a week. Um, and [01:11:20] um, you know, does audits and things that she needs to do. Um, so she does her part. She’s not, [01:11:25] you know, this silent, silent housewife or something like that stays at home like that. So I [01:11:30] still as my wife sometimes, but, um, um, but yes, she’s, she’s done her [01:11:35] part, but she’s, she’s, she’s, she’s, she’s been there the right time and she and and she [01:11:40] knows I don’t know, she can almost sense it if I phone her or I text [01:11:45] her, she can sense if there’s something that I need help with, which I think is, [01:11:50] is incredible. But then she’s learnt.

Payman Langroudi: She knows you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: She knows she knows more [01:11:55] than anyone. Yeah. 13 years of developing and knowing me and [01:12:00] being with me. This is a long time, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And do you see your kids now?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah [01:12:05] I do. Not as much, I’d hope, because I’m working. Working so hard, so much. But I do, [01:12:10] I do. And this great, great, great time to spend time with them and to see them grow and develop [01:12:15] and mature as adults. Well, not adults yet, but as they go in. [01:12:20]

Payman Langroudi: And what’s your advice to your kids regarding career? Would you tell them to [01:12:25] become dentists if they asked you?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, it’s I just always say do something that [01:12:30] you love to do, which is what was different to what I was told back [01:12:35] in the day, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, the reality of it is, you know, you might be lucky, you might have a kid who really [01:12:40] does love something. But the reality is, most kids don’t know what the hell you know, they have no idea.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. At the [01:12:45] moment they don’t.

Payman Langroudi: So. So then they kind of are looking to you for guidance. [01:12:50] Not not necessarily come to you and say, guide me, but you’re saying to them, alright, it’s A-levels [01:12:55] now. Yes. Which A-levels do you want to do? And they’re like no. Yeah. And then it’s that goes to [01:13:00] which career do you want. Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. So then you’re kind of forced to guide. [01:13:05] Yes. Yeah. So okay. Do what you love. But just [01:13:10] specifically dentistry. Because I get two types of people sitting in front of me here, literally [01:13:15] some who adore it and would love it for their kids, and then some who [01:13:20] specifically don’t want their kids to go into it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then when kids go into.

Payman Langroudi: It, what do you think? I [01:13:25] mean, it’s giving you so much, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, it’s it’s it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got a love hate [01:13:30] relationship with it yourself, right? With all this GDC stuff going on.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think people like, are you stressed with the GDC? [01:13:35] I’m like, no, not really. Why would I be stressed?

Payman Langroudi: It’s not stressing you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It doesn’t stress me out. It’s it’s the [01:13:40] unknown. I don’t like the unknown, you know, because it’s a it’s a it’s a process I’m going through. I’ve never been [01:13:45] before. And and you know, if I come out the other end, you know, I don’t really want to go through it again. [01:13:50] But if I had to go through it again, I would know the process. I would be less stressed. I’m very stressed because I don’t know the process. [01:13:55] That’s the only thing I think that stresses people out in life is you don’t know. Actually, it’s like doing your first composite. You know, [01:14:00] you’ve never done it before, but doing your one millionth composite, there’s no stress because you’ve done it so many times. Stress [01:14:05] is stress is a relation to actually unpredictability. Exactly. Rather than actually being [01:14:10] a difficult task. Um, so so no, I’m not stressed whatsoever when it comes to [01:14:15] the GDC. Um, no, I yeah, I know it’s I know it’s a cop out on me saying just [01:14:20] love what you do, but.

Payman Langroudi: But dentistry yes or no? [01:14:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: If they love it, then yes.

Payman Langroudi: How do they know whether they love it? They’ve got [01:14:30] no idea.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No they won’t. No no no they won’t.

Payman Langroudi: I mean look they won’t, they try. You know, there’s that classic question. [01:14:35] What would you be if you weren’t a dentist. Yeah. Someone asked me that. I might say, I don’t know, architect. [01:14:40] Yeah, yeah, but I don’t know at all what it’s like to be an architect. Yeah, I kind of like pretty buildings. [01:14:45] Yeah, but that’s not being an architect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:14:50] So there’s no way of knowing. So then they rely on you for advice. Yeah. [01:14:55] I mean, I mean, I’m interested in people who say, no, I definitely don’t want my kid to be a dentist. [01:15:00] Why not? Like, what’s the problem?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I [01:15:05] mean, you know, I don’t have a problem with the career, you know? I know it’s I know [01:15:10] it can be tough. It can. It can be tough with the regulations that are there and the patients and the, um, [01:15:15] the demands of the job. But then equally, you [01:15:20] know, it’s a it’s a most of the time it’s 9 to 5. Yeah. You know, we’re sitting down, [01:15:25] we’re just using a, we’re just doing a bit of.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, making the amount of money that dentists can [01:15:30] make is very hard to do in other things. Yes. So [01:15:35] it’s not like dentistry is tough, but it’s not like earning I don’t know. What did what [01:15:40] did what does the practice make? 200 grand or something? 200 grand. In other professions is [01:15:45] easy. I mean, there’s no there’s no way of easily earning 200 grand for for for [01:15:50] an average person. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the nice thing with dentistry is almost. [01:15:55] There’s a few simple rules. Don’t piss off your patients. Don’t piss off your staff. Yeah. [01:16:00] Like, simple as that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got 300 to worry about, though. Yeah. [01:16:05] That’s like it’s different. Most dentists one practice. Don’t piss off your patients. Don’t [01:16:10] hurt people. Be honest. Be nice. Yeah. And, uh, you know, they can make it, whereas, I don’t [01:16:15] know, let’s say your passion was marketing. Earning 200 grand in marketing. Hard, [01:16:20] man. You’ve got to be head of marketing for Procter and Gamble. Maybe. Yeah. Or some sort of performance [01:16:25] marketer on the internet selling some item that, you know, you’ve got. There’s a massive skill set there. Yeah. [01:16:30]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, I would, I’d, I’d I reckon I’m trying to push my daughter. [01:16:35] I think it’s a very good job for a daughter.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For, for a girl.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I just don’t know if [01:16:40] I can even say that these days, you know, refer to people by their gender. I just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: More rules. [01:16:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, exactly. And I just, you know, I, I’ve, I, uh, yeah, I got [01:16:50] to be careful with how you word things, but. Yeah. Now, of course I agree. For a female, it’s [01:16:55] a, it’s a flexibility. It’s brilliant. Yeah. The flexibility for like three days part time around [01:17:00] kids around schools. Yeah. It’s great. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk errors now. Clinical [01:17:05] errors. What comes to mind. What was your most difficult patient or your biggest [01:17:10] clinical error or something you learned clinically from as an error?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think the [01:17:15] worst thing was the I think very shortly after coming [01:17:20] out of uni, um, giving an ID block on a patient, just [01:17:25] a guy who was 60, um, I think a bit of high blood pressure or something like that, [01:17:30] and then gave him an ID block and then he. And sometimes it happens, isn’t it? I mean, it doesn’t happen [01:17:35] now because I’m more experienced what I do, an aspirate and all that kind of stuff. And then he was like, oh, my heart feels a bit [01:17:40] racy. You know, you’re like, oh, it’s fine. It’s just because there’s a bit of adrenaline in the anaesthetic, it will calm down. [01:17:45] And then five minutes later. How are you feeling, sir? No, no, it’s still still racing. And then [01:17:50] that’s a bit strange and. Okay, have a seat in the waiting room. Let’s not do the filling yet. We’ll just see how things go. Checked [01:17:55] on in on him about 20 minutes later. How are you feeling? I know my heart feels bad. My heart feels bad. I’m just going to go home. I’m [01:18:00] just gonna go home. I don’t feel right, you know? Oh, okay. And then he [01:18:05] goes home and then you think, oh, it’s a bit strange because usually it dissolves quite quick. [01:18:10] Usually. Yeah. Clears up, you know, the racing feeling, you know, and then, but then not thinking too [01:18:15] much into it and then phoning him that afternoon because that happened in the morning. No answer. [01:18:20] Okay. And then came in to work the next day and I said, can you give him [01:18:25] a call just to see if he’s alright? Called him. No answer.

Payman Langroudi: Jesus.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The afternoon called him. No [01:18:30] answer. I’m thinking, okay, maybe he’s maybe he’s not there. Okay. So. Okay, let’s let’s do it. Maybe two days. Let’s not hound [01:18:35] the guy, you know, two days later, call him again. No answer. I’m thinking, well, I mean, unless [01:18:40] I physically go to his house, I don’t know what else I can do. Um. And [01:18:45] then just nothing happened. And I saw the guy six months later, [01:18:50] came in for a check-up and then sat down. I was like, oh, so [01:18:55] you got back your filling. You know, because as you can see on the treatment plan, it’s still it’s still there. I don’t need to do [01:19:00] this filling. And he was like, he was like, yeah, things went a bit wrong after the injection last time. I was like, what [01:19:05] do you mean went wrong? Well, um, yeah, I went home and I had a full on heart attack, and [01:19:10] I’d been in hospital for for 2 or 3 weeks. And like, you’re looking, thinking shit, [01:19:15] was that was that me? And then I was like, oh my God. I’m like, [01:19:20] I’m. First thing I just said was, I’m sorry. You know, you just admit it. I’m really sorry. It [01:19:25] was. Did the doctor say that was because the injection? They said, well, he’s like they said it could [01:19:30] have been. It could have been the injection. But I’m I’m here now and you know, you know, just [01:19:35] just.

Payman Langroudi: Calm about it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You know. And he stayed my patient until I stopped working in that practice. I [01:19:40] retired clinically, you know. So he’s my patient for a good ten years after that. [01:19:45] So the trust was still there. And then I remember then obviously finding out my identity when I was 18, when he left [01:19:50] and said, you know, is that a possibility? I could have caused this guy to have a heart attack. And they’re like, well, you could have done if [01:19:55] you didn’t aspirate. You injected the whole volume into his, uh, in he could have, [01:20:00] you know, into his blood. He could have he could have triggered, um, and then you just think, wow. Yeah. [01:20:05] Okay. But now I’ve got to be. So I think for a good, like.

Payman Langroudi: Think back to all the ID blocks you’d given.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And [01:20:10] then for good six years after that, I think I just used scandalous, a plain anaesthetic [01:20:15] for an ID block. I didn’t even use anything with adrenaline, you know, I was I just was like, right, I’m not [01:20:20] doing anything. You know, I’d have to give two to make it work. Now, you know, I can give it as an [01:20:25] ID block and it’s fine because you learn. You learn when the vascular stuff is and [01:20:30] you become so experienced in doing it over time. But at the start you don’t. And obviously. And they don’t [01:20:35] teach you how to aspirate university. They tell you aspirate, you see blood. You think, well, where.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve never [01:20:40] seen it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Where do I see anything? You know? The patient’s tongue’s in the way. It’s dark, you know. They’re moving around. You [01:20:45] get an idea, like, oh, sometimes they’re moving, you know? How am I going to see anything? They don’t [01:20:50] teach you that. So you’ve got to learn that for experience. I think that was one of the real sticking points, because it [01:20:55] was a possibly a direct consequence of what I’d done, which was a mistake, [01:21:00] could have had a significant impact on someone’s life or it actually did. To be fair. [01:21:05] Um, but then again, you treat the patient with the dignity and respect that they deserve, and they still [01:21:10] keep going. He didn’t not come back to see me. You know, he kept on coming back and he trusted [01:21:15] me.

Payman Langroudi: What about what about one like that that did get pissed off. Like a management issue. Patient management issue. [01:21:20] Do you remember a case like that? Because that sounds like, in a way. I mean, it’s not a happy ending, but [01:21:25] kind of a happy ending. Anyone? Where where you you made an [01:21:30] error in terms of the way you managed the patient. And they lost [01:21:35] confidence, let’s say.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Mhm. Well [01:21:40] I know I’ve kind of.

Payman Langroudi: What about by the way within the group. How many [01:21:45] dentists. 200.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wow. I mean we.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a continuing ongoing complaints [01:21:50] all.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The time. Yeah. I mean they all make mistakes and. Yeah. Jeez, Louise. I mean there’s.

Payman Langroudi: So do you have to get involved [01:21:55] in all of that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Um, the clinical directors deal with the majority of those, but, yeah, the more serious ones. [01:22:00] And, yeah, I get involved in, like.

Payman Langroudi: Many, many, many things must have happened within the group. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Things [01:22:05] happened like a a practitioner clinician dropping a crown down a patient’s throat because they were trying [01:22:10] to put it back on and didn’t realise actually that it’s been, you know, it’s gone down, it’s gone [01:22:15] into the trachea, you know. Not sending them to hospital there and then sending them home. And then two [01:22:20] days later the patient’s in, in, in hospital having thoracic surgery to have it removed, you [01:22:25] know, so so obviously they don’t work for me anymore. Um, but then yeah, seeing off the back of that [01:22:30] the complaints and the how it was managed and dealing with that and then, um, so, [01:22:35] so yeah, we, I see wow I see some interesting things. Some very interesting. [01:22:40] But then some things that just go wrong. That’s not the patients. So not the clinicians fault. [01:22:45] Like like like a dentist removing a six. Extracting a six. It’s [01:22:50] nowhere near the near the ID canal. So it’s a routine [01:22:55] extraction. And then the patient has parasthesia after that for the lip and [01:23:00] then blaming the dentist for the for not assessing it correctly and thinking it’s nowhere near [01:23:05] that. I can see on your periapical I can see with the ID canal is so you know, there’s it’s [01:23:10] just one of those things.

Payman Langroudi: What about business decisions that you’ve made? [01:23:15] I’d like to hear both like one that stands out as like, I made a great decision to [01:23:20] do X and one that stands out as I shouldn’t have done that. Um. [01:23:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: A great business.

Payman Langroudi: When you’ve bought this many practices, there must have been some interesting [01:23:30] stories or or opportunities that something you spotted that the next [01:23:35] man wouldn’t or.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Um, that’s an interesting question. I think, um. [01:23:40] I think the, the worst [01:23:45] business decision was which which didn’t help this clawback situation. And [01:23:50] the deficit we’re in was when I spent £1 million in cash on our last practice [01:23:55] outright. Bought outright. Yep. Uh, on the promise [01:24:00] that the bank would reinvest, almost refund that, you know, [01:24:05] inject a further million in because it was coming quite close to the completion date was being delayed and delayed [01:24:10] and delayed. And then when I eventually went back to the bank and said, oh, you know, can you come [01:24:15] through on your word? They said, no, no, I’m not going to. And it was like.

Payman Langroudi: You were expecting a [01:24:20] million more.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve just spent I’ve just spent the last million, actually, that I had in the bank. Uh, and I was, you [01:24:25] know, so so that was trusting the trusting obviously people.

Payman Langroudi: Like, with the relationship with the bank, [01:24:30] is it the same bank that you’ve had all along or have you used different? No. [01:24:35]

Ashkan Pitchforth: We switched. We have switched. So we have been to we have gone from like Wesleyan to [01:24:40] Metrobank to Santander. Um, at the moment with Santander, [01:24:45] we’re now we’re now on a on a refinance journey with, with another bank. Um, [01:24:50] so you do you do deal with many as you go along.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, in that situation, is [01:24:55] it like the trust between you and the other individual?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, not necessarily, because the thing [01:25:00] is, is that when you you have a trust relationship with your business, relationship [01:25:05] manager at the bank. Yeah. But behind them sits a credit team and. [01:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: Control over that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And they, they analyse risk in a whole different way and they [01:25:15] sometimes don’t look at certain things. So when we went [01:25:20] for our tough time with the bank, um, I said to the bank guys, I [01:25:25] can get this back. I can go from being underperforming at 65% year end to 110%. [01:25:30] I need you to trust me and the relationship manager saying, Will I trust you, ash? But [01:25:35] the team behind me don’t trust you because they see see it as a risk. You’ve underperformed. How are you [01:25:40] going to flip it around? Um, so so that’s that’s the problem. So so [01:25:45] then you’ve got a and because you can never talk to them, you can never talk to a credit team. They sit [01:25:50] in literally like almost like a dark room. Um, and, and you just hope and [01:25:55] they just look at KPIs. Yeah. That’s all they look at the KPIs, the figures, [01:26:00] the stats. That’s all they look at. They don’t look at hearsay or potential or visions or strategic [01:26:05] planning. They look at figures, facts, and that’s it. [01:26:10] Um, and they base their assessments based on that. So I think that was kind of one of the worst, worst [01:26:15] business decisions. I think the best business decision, I think the model that we’re running [01:26:20] at the moment. I think the epiphany moment, the epiphany time of, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, it’s [01:26:25] staggering difference in figures, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Figures are just staggering difference. [01:26:30] And now we have people asking, you know, I wrote a 30 page [01:26:35] dossier almost on how to do it. The secret sauce. And it’s [01:26:40] we have, you know, p firms out there that backing, you know, these corporate organisations [01:26:45] that have a 7% EBITDA, you know, group level. And they just just [01:26:50] how can we have a meeting please. Because, you know, I need to understand what my team that I’ve backed [01:26:55] is doing wrong, considering what you’ve you’re doing and your outcomes are the same, if not [01:27:00] better in terms of your patient, outcomes are the same, if not better. But your.

Payman Langroudi: Business.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But your business outcomes [01:27:05] are just far improved. So yeah, we have people knocking on the door now saying, you know, we want to know what the secret [01:27:10] sauce is.

Payman Langroudi: So then going forward, what’s going to be the situation. Are [01:27:15] you looking for an exit now. Are you looking for [01:27:20] PE.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No no.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Any of that. Any of those?

Payman Langroudi: Are you looking for what? What are [01:27:25] you looking for? Like, what would it take for you to leave this business?

Ashkan Pitchforth: My death.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:27:30]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If I said billion dollars, you wouldn’t take it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. What would I do with $1 [01:27:35] billion?

Payman Langroudi: Another business? Different business?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, but then I wouldn’t be happy with it.

Payman Langroudi: Get into fashion or something. [01:27:40] I wouldn’t.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I wouldn’t be happy with the staff. You know, the thing is, the thing is, is that. [01:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: So then what is going to happen? What does the future look like? I mean, what would be your perfect outcome [01:27:50] in ten years time?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So what are we going for the moment? Its growth. Its [01:27:55] growth number. Number level growth training. Um, our new head office obviously has a training [01:28:00] facility, which should be built in about a month’s time and really, really improving the quality, continuing to improve the quality [01:28:05] of the clinicians that we have. Really reinvest heavily in them. Um, and, [01:28:10] um, so, I mean, ten years from now, potentially, we might start again another journey of acquisitions, [01:28:15] take it from 24 upwards. But I would never sell my soul at the moment to a PE firm. I wouldn’t [01:28:20] sell out at the moment either. Um, because we just.

Payman Langroudi: Depend on the figure.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Even [01:28:25] if the figure was incredible, I it just wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: You’re just loving it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You just wouldn’t happen because I’d [01:28:30] be bored, you know? And and also the relationships I have with the staff [01:28:35] and the individual. And at the end of the day, you know, it’s [01:28:40] a the the. The [01:28:45] group is reflection of my almost like my lifelong work. It’s almost [01:28:50] like I see myself as an artist. I mean, I would love to have been an artist.

Payman Langroudi: Your magnum opus?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. So. So this [01:28:55] is. This is what I’ve created. And if I was to just give it away, or even for many reasons.

Payman Langroudi: You could [01:29:00] become a real artist.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I would, yeah, but I do, I do that. I do that at the moment. I [01:29:05] do that in in my body art, you know, in the way I, the way I dress. Um, and, [01:29:10] uh, but yeah. So, um, no, I don’t think I would, I don’t think I would, I [01:29:15] would, I would, I would cash in cash in the chips.

Payman Langroudi: Just not for sale.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, [01:29:20] of course not. Yeah, yeah, it’s not for sale.

Payman Langroudi: And the PE private equity situation. [01:29:25] You don’t want someone else telling you how to run. The thing is that is that the the point? [01:29:30] Yeah. Because because you could write. You could say, hey, let’s go for 75 [01:29:35] practices like this, this new business model. Yeah. Go and grab some money from a company, and. [01:29:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ll run with it.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Ashkan Pitchforth: We’ll make them a lot of money. We’ll make them rich. But the thing is, is that you’re [01:29:45] then putting constraints onto something on someone that’s a visionary, like, yeah, you can’t, [01:29:50] you can’t, you can’t constrain creativity because in that that means [01:29:55] that you’re driven by numbers, you’re not driven by the flow and what’s happening and and what [01:30:00] you want to do. You’re driven by something completely different. And that’s what we don’t want to be driven by. Because [01:30:05] when it becomes a numbers game, then it’s just it’s just it’s just producing numbers for a balance sheet for a PNL [01:30:10] to say, look, look at what we’ve achieved. And then it gets flipped, goes from one firm to another and [01:30:15] another to another, and it just continues and things like that. And, and I see, I see that in the downfall [01:30:20] of a lot of corporate groups out there, you know, um, that have almost sold [01:30:25] their souls to, to, to to an outside firm. [01:30:30]

Payman Langroudi: And I can imagine what I can’t imagine you in a board meetings where [01:30:35] they’re telling you what to do.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I know the things I can get told what to do, because the thing is, I get told what [01:30:40] to do by the banks and the NHS anyway. But the thing with me is that if I’m going to turn up to a board meeting, [01:30:45] don’t expect me to wear a suit.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think that’s any more.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Don’t expect me. Don’t expect [01:30:50] me to. I mean, at the end of the day, if it’s hot, yes, I might sit there topless, you know, because [01:30:55] I need to be comfortable.

Payman Langroudi: South by southwest. Last week here and, um, the there were all these [01:31:00] tech bros everywhere, and hardly anyone was dressed up.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, things have changed.

Ashkan Pitchforth: In [01:31:05] our industry. It hasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the things have changed. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, those guys want numbers. [01:31:10]

Ashkan Pitchforth: The numbers. But look at the CEO for. Am I allowed to say the names? Yeah. Portman [01:31:15] did. He did he turn up looking like me? No, no. You know Roderick’s no. [01:31:20] You know, um, uh, Gene Genius, you know. I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone cares, though. I don’t [01:31:25] think anyone cares. That’s my point.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, well, yeah, they they shouldn’t do it, but I think people don’t take you seriously [01:31:30] when they just. They see you see, you’re a bit different. I get that all the time. I get that all the time. Like. [01:31:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do you like that? Do you like.

Ashkan Pitchforth: People turn up to a meeting and I’m quiet and I think people look at me and think, [01:31:40] who the bloody hell? And then I start talking about the clauses in the NHS contract. And actually. [01:31:45] Is that right? Have you looked at like clause 75 and clause 42 and all this stuff. And they [01:31:50] think thinking this guy bloody.

Payman Langroudi: Does it somewhat drive you people underestimating you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah [01:31:55] I think it, I think it does. I think it’s very it’s a yeah it does actually it makes it I.

Payman Langroudi: Feel like [01:32:00] you’re the kind of guy. If I said ash, you’ll never do X. You’ll just have to prove me wrong. [01:32:05] Like you never.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Ever.

Payman Langroudi: Berserk to prove me wrong.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, [01:32:10] exactly. I would. If anyone says you can never achieve something, that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:32:15] going.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Don’t ever say that to me. Because then it’ll be. I’ll make sure. Hook or crook. [01:32:20] I will make sure that I achieved that.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve come to the end of our time. It’s been it’s been an [01:32:25] enlightening conversation. I’ve enjoyed it. Um, we end with the same questions. [01:32:30] Well, actually, best best lecture you’ve ever been to. Can you think of that? [01:32:35] Dental lecture.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Dental. Yeah. I mean, it was it’s it’s [01:32:40] not a best one, but a series. Best one’s anatomy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Back in uni, [01:32:45] fascinated by anatomy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Ashkan Pitchforth: You know, again, it’s the muscles, the bodybuilding, [01:32:50] the the artistic, you know, going back to obviously like the Leonardo, Leonardo da Vinci [01:32:55] and Michelangelo days and the, the Caravaggio and the sculptures and learning about [01:33:00] how the deltoids look and the latissimus dorsi and all this kind of stuff and the obliques, [01:33:05] I don’t know, anatomy fascinated in and, you know, I loved those lectures. Love [01:33:10] those lectures, I loved them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, final question [01:33:15] then. Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead [01:33:20] or alive? Who do you have?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think it would be. One of them would be [01:33:25] Alexander McQueen.

Payman Langroudi: The designer.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The designer? The fashion designer I really like. I like [01:33:30] his.

Payman Langroudi: Cool dude.

Ashkan Pitchforth: His style, but also what he did. He was a pioneer, you know? He came from [01:33:35] again. He didn’t fit the mould. I relate to him quite a lot. He didn’t fit that mould. Um, [01:33:40] but then again, if you look at his journey, he did sell out and [01:33:45] he was doing something he didn’t want to do at the end. And maybe, I don’t know, maybe that led [01:33:50] to his his eventual death. You know, the suicide and things like that demise. So [01:33:55] yeah, it’d be good to chat to McQueen. I think the other person would be Mike Menzer. [01:34:00] I think Mike Menzer. Who’s that? He’s, um, he’s he’s one of the great [01:34:05] bodybuilding gurus back in the 1980s. So he was the one that that transformed [01:34:10] the idea of, you don’t have to go to the gym for three, four hours a day to look like Arnold [01:34:15] Schwarzenegger, which is obviously what he was even Arnold Schwarzenegger was doing at the time. He was like, you just need to go four times a [01:34:20] week for 30 minutes a day and you can still achieve the same physique. So he changed again.

Payman Langroudi: Pioneer. [01:34:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: A pioneer of bodybuilding. Like difference. Again relating to that. [01:34:30] You know, the way we’ve done it in terms of like our business model and saying, okay, you don’t need to do this. You [01:34:35] know, let’s let’s flip it. Let’s change the way we’re looking at it. Um. And [01:34:40] yeah, I think the third [01:34:45] one is always yeah, yeah, it’s always been my ex-father-in-law, I think. Yeah, [01:34:50] I didn’t I didn’t have that final time with him, so it’d be good to. It [01:34:55] would be good to. Have done.

Payman Langroudi: That. [01:35:00]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Have that and just say sorry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:35:05] been a massive pleasure, man. And thanks for doing it twice. Yeah. [01:35:10] And for being so open. And hopefully the GDC worries go away. I could see you running [01:35:15] a group of gyms, you know, like some sort of innovation [01:35:20] in that space.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, maybe let’s let’s do it together. Yeah. You can [01:35:25] whiten the teeth. You can lighten them and I’ll. And I’ll train them.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Well, thanks [01:35:30] so much for doing it.

[TRANSITION]: No thank you, thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:35:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:35:40] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [01:35:45] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:35:50] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from [01:35:55] me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has [01:36:00] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [01:36:05] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [01:36:10] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [01:36:15] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Recently, one of the groups did a survey to understand [00:00:05] what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their Dental chair and enlighten came in as the second most profitable [00:00:10] thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if your dental chair is busy, [00:00:15] it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on Enlighten Online Training to [00:00:20] fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about it. Deliver brilliant results [00:00:25] every time. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great [00:00:50] pleasure to welcome Sara Herndon and Mohan Montazeri onto the podcast [00:00:55] to Iranians who qualified in Hungary. Yes. And, uh, [00:01:00] found their way over to the NHS. And now to private practice. [00:01:05] It’s a lovely story of qualifying and travelling [00:01:10] and getting over here. Um, before we do anything else, let me just quickly ask you this question. [00:01:15] Had you been to the UK before you finally came? No, [00:01:20] it was your first time.

Sara Khandan: It was literally the first time. So we had no idea [00:01:25] about what we’re getting ourselves into. Not that we regret anything, but, um, it was [00:01:30] really hard, um, getting obviously we it was the visa situation. [00:01:35] So we had to get through visa to come and check everything out. It [00:01:40] was going to take a long time. And, um, we thought that it’s just not worth it because, um, [00:01:45] getting a skilled worker visa was way faster. Uh, and we were like, let’s, [00:01:50] let’s just go with, with, with the working visa and let’s get that sorted, because we knew [00:01:55] that we want to go somewhere and we’re better than UK because obviously we [00:02:00] could speak English here and everywhere else in the in Europe was a little bit harder because we [00:02:05] had to pass a very hard language exams.

Payman Langroudi: And had you been to the UK before?

Mahan Mohaghegh: No, [00:02:10] no, this was my first time as well. And yeah, I think to be honest, [00:02:15] I feel like, uh, like for anyone else who [00:02:20] is planning to like go through the journey again, I think it would be better [00:02:25] to. Yeah, at least once to come and visit UK before. [00:02:30] Yeah, I would say. But for us, I mean eventually it all went quite [00:02:35] smoothly. But yeah, I think it would be better to. Yeah, [00:02:40] at least have a visit and see the situations. And I [00:02:45] mean like at the end of the day, even if you see and like uh, visit [00:02:50] UK before, still if you try to it’s different basically to [00:02:55] work and to come as a visitor and to start working and living in a country. [00:03:00]

Payman Langroudi: For sure.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But yeah, I.

Sara Khandan: Think we were lucky because we chose the right place based [00:03:05] on what we wanted, because we did a lot of research though. So, um, we [00:03:10] chose South and it was quite what we wanted. So we were lucky in that aspect. [00:03:15] But I think for anyone who’s going through the same journey, as Mohan said, it’s I think [00:03:20] way more beneficial if they would come, have a look first, decide where they want to go [00:03:25] and then come and settle as someone who’s going to be working here.

Payman Langroudi: So what made [00:03:30] you go to Hungary in the first place? Why? Why not study in Iran?

Sara Khandan: Um, [00:03:35] I personally, my family wanted me to [00:03:40] come out of Iran, so, um, the they wanted me to experience [00:03:45] a different system, get to know world a little bit better because I was living in Malaysia, [00:03:50] um, for, for a few years as well. So I was quite used to multicultural [00:03:55] environment. And, um, we had an agent in Iran [00:04:00] who was working with that university that we went to, and he was quite good at [00:04:05] the paperworks and he would do everything very smoothly. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: And you knew in your mind [00:04:10] that you could then go practice anywhere in Europe after that.

[TRANSITION]: Right? No. Not really.

Sara Khandan: No. [00:04:15] So, uh, we I was like, let’s go step by step. Let’s just first go for [00:04:20] the uni because we did search. I actually did search a lot of places. And [00:04:25] the basically Hungary was the easiest option because [00:04:30] it was an English, um, course. Dental course, I knew that I wanted definitely [00:04:35] to be a dentist. Um, it was an English course and the agent would do all the paperwork. [00:04:40] So it’s sort of everything clicked together. And.

Payman Langroudi: And when was Malaysia? What was that in [00:04:45] between?

Sara Khandan: Um, that was a few years during my secondary school, uh, when I was [00:04:50] around 11, 12. But after that I went back to Iran again. And then I finished my high school. [00:04:55] And after that I went to Hungary.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go to Malaysia with your parents.

[TRANSITION]: Or.

Sara Khandan: Just my mom? So [00:05:00] my sister went to France at that time. So my dad would go to Iran and then come and visit [00:05:05] me and then go to France to visit my sister. It was a really long journey for him. So after [00:05:10] a few years, um, we were like, this is too hard. Let’s just go back to Iran. Let’s let the family [00:05:15] be together. Like we cannot do this.

Payman Langroudi: So your sister also went back?

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, she stayed. [00:05:20]

Sara Khandan: Because she was way older than me.

[TRANSITION]: So she.

Sara Khandan: Could handle.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Payman Langroudi: I see. So then getting [00:05:25] in to Hungarian Dental. Which which one did you go to in Hungary?

[TRANSITION]: Debrecen.

Payman Langroudi: Debrecen? [00:05:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it easy or hard?

Sara Khandan: Getting into was quite straightforward. [00:05:35] Uh, we did the exam. The entrance exam in Iran. So the some of [00:05:40] the professors from the uni would come to the agent’s place in Iran, in Tehran. [00:05:45] Wow. Um, and then he would actually take them to Shiraz. Like one of the very famous cities in Iran. [00:05:50] And they would have like this sort of touristic visit. Um, so we did the entrance [00:05:55] exam in Iran and uh, then everything else was basically with the agents [00:06:00] doing all the paperwork. So everything was quite straightforward. But once you get to the uni, [00:06:05] then it becomes really intense. So yeah, then the five years. [00:06:10]

Payman Langroudi: What was your first impression of Hungary when you got there?

Sara Khandan: Very. People are very reserved [00:06:15] there. So compared to the UK, I people here are very outgoing. [00:06:20] You can literally click with them really fast, have a very good proper conversation, [00:06:25] talk about many things. But in in Hungary firstly the language barrier because not everyone [00:06:30] speaks English there and Hungarian is not a very easy language. You have to [00:06:35] basically you need time to learn it and people are not as [00:06:40] outgoing either. They are very, very reserved. So it’s you always have like a [00:06:45] barrier between you. Unless you learn Hungarian, then you see a different side of them. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: And you learned Hungarian.

Sara Khandan: Only after uni. So because the course wasn’t, everything [00:06:55] was in English. Um, we did have to learn a little bit of Hungarian, but that was not enough. [00:07:00] That was very, very minimal. After we were done with uni because we decided to work [00:07:05] in Hungary, then that was the time that we had to learn Hungarian because not many patients would speak Hungarian [00:07:10] English.

Payman Langroudi: How about you, Mohan, when you first got there?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it the first time you were away [00:07:15] from your family and all that?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, that was the case basically for me. I [00:07:20] think it was a bit different because, uh, um, I had to move out of [00:07:25] Iran before I turned 18 because of the military service. So after you turn 18, [00:07:30] you can’t leave the country legally, basically. Uh, before doing your [00:07:35] military service. So I just found myself like. [00:07:40] Because before that I used to live with my parents, and. Yeah, but after that, [00:07:45] I just, Like so myself, just suddenly living by [00:07:50] my own. And, uh. Yeah, uh, one thing that did [00:07:55] actually help was that because, uh, there were like other people who was who [00:08:00] were like, going through the same journey like me. So that’s, uh, it make [00:08:05] made it a bit easier for me.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have your own little Iranian clique?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Community? [00:08:10] Yeah, basically. And the first year we used to, we had there was like, uh, [00:08:15] this hostel basically, uh, that we all used to just live next [00:08:20] to each other. So that was like a good. Uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was [00:08:25] going through your head? Were you feeling lucky or unlucky?

Mahan Mohaghegh: I [00:08:30] was feeling lucky, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: The opportunity?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. The opportunity. I could see [00:08:35] the opportunity to. You ask first that why you moved out of Iran? [00:08:40] It was mainly because of the like our parents could see the economic situation [00:08:45] in Iran. And my my dad, he is a neurologist. He [00:08:50] is a doctor as well. But like one thing that he said, he, he [00:08:55] he pushed me towards dentistry more. Yeah. Because [00:09:00] in his opinion, because he went through all these medical degrees and [00:09:05] it’s take lots of time to become like a general practitioner [00:09:10] and then go through specialists and takes longer time compared [00:09:15] to dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Did he study all in Iran? Your dad?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Used to be in some super brain. [00:09:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very competitive in Iran.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then to become a neurologist.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Neurologist? [00:09:25] Yeah. It’s really difficult. Like I remember even in our university, we had like [00:09:30] a brief course of like neurology and [00:09:35] I couldn’t really go. It was really difficult. Yeah. [00:09:40]

Payman Langroudi: And what do your parents do?

Sara Khandan: Uh, my dad is an engineer, civil engineer and my mom [00:09:45] housewife and a teacher.

Mahan Mohaghegh: And you always have this basically [00:09:50] Middle Eastern approach that you have to be a doctor, dentist, [00:09:55] lawyer. So that’s also our that was mainly my mom that pushed [00:10:00] me to go to the to Hungary and study dentistry. My parents [00:10:05] basically.

[TRANSITION]: There.

Payman Langroudi: Was a degree of excitement when you got there, huh? Because you’re now living by.

[TRANSITION]: Yourself.

Payman Langroudi: In your [00:10:10] country?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, in a new country, everything was new. So it was like lots [00:10:15] of excitement at first.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the financials. Like, was it [00:10:20] expensive? Was it a struggle to think about paying for it? Your life?

[TRANSITION]: Well, you should talk to your parents. [00:10:25]

Sara Khandan: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It was. Yeah. At first, I mean. Yeah, [00:10:30] it. So the I think it’s like the whole one [00:10:35] year, uh, is that at that time, it was around, uh, 15, $16,000. [00:10:40] Dollars. But now I think it should be more.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:10:45] that? The teaching?

Sara Khandan: No, just the.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Usual university thing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Including living?

[TRANSITION]: No [00:10:50] no no no. Just teaching.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Teaching. Just the. Just the.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot in Iranian money.

[TRANSITION]: Right? [00:10:55] Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It is. Yeah. I mean, at that time, the the rate, the conversion [00:11:00] rate, it was a bit much. Not a bit much, much better.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But, [00:11:05] uh. Yeah. Now, still, now it’s still my, uh, sister. She is now studying [00:11:10] in Hungary, in the same university.

[TRANSITION]: At.

Payman Langroudi: Double the price.

[TRANSITION]: Right? At double [00:11:15] the price. And my parents.

Mahan Mohaghegh: They keep every time I call them, they just keep moaning. [00:11:20] Always expensive.

Payman Langroudi: So she’s studying dentistry as well?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Although I. [00:11:25] Yeah, although I tried my best to. I don’t know why, but I feel like the Debrecen. [00:11:30] Exactly. Especially Debrecen. Uh, it’s [00:11:35] a bit. So basically in in central and [00:11:40] Eastern Europe. I feel like the universities there are like more towards like oral [00:11:45] exams and there are less written exams there. And the [00:11:50] bad thing is, uh, basically the oral exam. Okay. [00:11:55] There is like a, like a 20% of luck involved [00:12:00] as well. I mean, even even if not more than that. So even if you know [00:12:05] everything, it’s really important. Who like who is your examiner [00:12:10] would be and which topic. Because we have to take like a topic as well. Like [00:12:15] I had like some people they, they even like missed some of the topics and [00:12:20] they would go and they would just pass the exam. That’s one thing. And [00:12:25] in some cases, like especially the Dental departments, there [00:12:30] were like quite a bit tricky to like, for example, special oral surgery departments. [00:12:35] We had to yeah, we had to know lots of, like [00:12:40] stuff. We have to learn all the about the surgeries and everything. [00:12:45] It’s really difficult to just without seeing them try [00:12:50] to memorise all the steps of the which is involved and everything [00:12:55] there. That’s why I tried my yeah, but tried to tell [00:13:00] my parents not to send my sister there.

Payman Langroudi: But they didn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Listen. They didn’t [00:13:05] listen.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, as far as the difference between studying there and studying [00:13:10] here, do you know the difference as far as the amount of experience you had? Like, did you end up doing [00:13:15] more or less than what a.

[TRANSITION]: British.

Payman Langroudi: Graduate would do in terms of restorative? [00:13:20]

Sara Khandan: Or in Hungary, it’s definitely more invasive. So dentistry is [00:13:25] a way minimally invasive in the UK. Um, you’re [00:13:30] less scared of trying new things because in general there is no culture [00:13:35] of suing there. They’re nothing. Even patients barely complain to [00:13:40] you. They look at dentists as gods.

Payman Langroudi: So the old.

[TRANSITION]: Way.

Sara Khandan: Exactly. [00:13:45] So you’re always pre-authorized compared to the patient. There is no complaint. [00:13:50] So less stressful. And I actually, we are really grateful that we worked there [00:13:55] for our first few years because as a newly graduate, we could sort.

[TRANSITION]: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Try.

[TRANSITION]: Things. [00:14:00] Exactly.

Sara Khandan: We could try things. Have a lot of experience. Root canals, extractions, many things. [00:14:05] Whereas if we were here, maybe we would have been a little bit more cautious. Um. [00:14:10] Patients, they are easygoing. [00:14:15] I would say way less stressful. But I like the dental community better [00:14:20] in the UK. Um, the fact that it’s more multicultural, um, a lot [00:14:25] of courses, everyone’s just so easygoing, so easy to just [00:14:30] contact someone and ask them about anything. We didn’t have those privileges in the in [00:14:35] in Hungary. We it was, as I mentioned, very very reserved. So I’m [00:14:40] still happy that.

Payman Langroudi: Did you move when you started working to Budapest or did you [00:14:45] stay there?

Sara Khandan: No, we actually I had my own practice. Oh, yeah. It was a governmental [00:14:50] practice. So something in the shape of NHS a little bit different, but [00:14:55] majorly was similar. Um, so it wasn’t anywhere [00:15:00] close to Budapest. It was closer to Debrecen that the city that we graduated from.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. It [00:15:05] was like basically the the basic public, uh.

Sara Khandan: Sector.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Sector. [00:15:10] Yeah. And it’s different like in there, you don’t, uh, you don’t have to own. [00:15:15] It’s basically the government own the practice and the land and everything. And you get [00:15:20] just the you buy the basic rights, the right of the, uh, like [00:15:25] to basically work as a dentist there. So but it was quite [00:15:30] a journey. Yeah. It was quite an experience there.

[TRANSITION]: Too.

Payman Langroudi: And neither of you have ever worked in Iran as a dentist?

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:15:35]

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny, because I did one summer.

[TRANSITION]: Did you?

Payman Langroudi: I was I wasn’t a dentist. I was a dental [00:15:40] student. Oh, and my uncle was a dentist, and he was running the public. [00:15:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thing in Rasht, probably.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And there [00:15:50] was basically a queue going out of the clinic, and it was only extractions.

[TRANSITION]: Was it?

Payman Langroudi: And [00:15:55] he used to go around the queue injecting everyone.

[TRANSITION]: No way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So that by [00:16:00] the time they got in, they were all numb.

[TRANSITION]: Numb.

Payman Langroudi: And then I didn’t that I remember that one day I [00:16:05] did more extractions than I did for the whole of my dental course, obviously. Um, and I learnt extractions. [00:16:10] You know, he taught me how to do extractions in that one day. And there’s something [00:16:15] to be said for volume. I mean, people talk about that in the NHS as well. Yeah. Like go to the NHS and learn.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:16:20]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t like the idea myself, I think, although I get it and I [00:16:25] did one year in the NHS too. I get it, but I don’t like the idea, um, of [00:16:30] practising on people who aren’t paying as much. You know that notion? [00:16:35] Um, now it’s a two way street. Yeah. Those people want the dentistry. Yeah. Um, but [00:16:40] for me, the quicker you get into the thing that you’re going to get into, the [00:16:45] better you’re learning. You know, but it’s not a popular view. So. So let’s talk [00:16:50] about then why did you or at what point did you decide to come here. So you did 2 or 3 [00:16:55] years of practice in in that clinic.

Sara Khandan: So three years initially when [00:17:00] we graduated we worked for a company Mohan worked for a few years. I [00:17:05] worked there for like one year. I had the worst experience of my life.

Payman Langroudi: Like a corporate. [00:17:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Sara Khandan: A corporate. And the owners, they were just [00:17:15] horrible. We firstly with the visa situation, [00:17:20] there were always using that against us because because we sort of were independent, [00:17:25] we were dependent on the visa. Um, they would really use it against us. [00:17:30] They took advantage. They didn’t even pay us for the first two months that we were working for them. They [00:17:35] did tell us, um, initially because we were newly graduated. So like, see, you’re going to come and work [00:17:40] for us, but we’re not going to pay you for two months. Um, that was the time that I was like, I cannot do this. [00:17:45] Um, I have to do something so that I become visa dependent, uh, [00:17:50] visa dependent on myself. And that was opening a practice.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I see.

Sara Khandan: Um, [00:17:55] I, I didn’t even speak Hungarian that well because I was just learning [00:18:00] Hungarian back then. Mohan. Because he had more experience. He was the one helping me to go around [00:18:05] and, uh, buy practices. Um, we had to go to the council. [00:18:10] We chose a very small village. Um, we had to go to the council. Mohan was there [00:18:15] helping me with the language for translating and bless them. They were so [00:18:20] nice. They were like, we do anything you want with the visa. It’s okay. Just come here, [00:18:25] be our dentist. But they really needed a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

[TRANSITION]: Neat.

Sara Khandan: Exactly.

[TRANSITION]: And the fact.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Sorry, [00:18:30] the fact that, like they are, as soon as they they see that you are [00:18:35] like foreigner and they you start speaking their language, they will get surprised because they are not. [00:18:40] Yeah. And also they get really nice. So yeah, it’s like a different [00:18:45] story.

Payman Langroudi: Of Eastern Europeans work here.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the they, it’s like a [00:18:50] they call them like an egg. There’s a, there’s a shell on the outside. Once you get through that shell then, [00:18:55] then they let you in completely.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s true. Yeah. They will come here.

Payman Langroudi: And they say [00:19:00] Western Europeans are the opposite. Yeah. Like they say, it’s a peach. It’s [00:19:05] really soft on the outside, but hard on the inside. That’s that’s what.

[TRANSITION]: Makes absolute sense, actually. [00:19:10] Yeah.

Sara Khandan: That’s a nice way to describe it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But so go on the [00:19:15] that experience that the any let’s call it the NHS of, of Hungary that you did. [00:19:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: That public was it was that just high needs extractions. Was it. What kind of dentistry was it?

Sara Khandan: Uh, [00:19:25] it was everything. So, uh, it’s quite different with NHS in the sense [00:19:30] that there is, um, an exact line between private and [00:19:35] sort of the public health or public dentistry in Hungary.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t.

[TRANSITION]: Mix.

Sara Khandan: You can’t [00:19:40] mix. So I think that’s what makes it easier, because once if [00:19:45] someone has pain, definitely public. So for instance, if you need to do an extraction, [00:19:50] fillings, things like that, it’s definitely free of charge. The patients they don’t need to pay either. [00:19:55] But once they need something such as crowns, cosmetic fillings again, or even [00:20:00] dentures, then they have to pay. But here in so it’s less of a talking. But [00:20:05] here in the UK, I feel like sometimes, most of the time it’s just going to persuade the patients or [00:20:10] sell private to them. Whereas I as a dentist really want to focus on [00:20:15] doing my work, not talking, talking to the patient, if that makes sense. But [00:20:20] um, one other thing, which was different patients firstly they didn’t pay. Secondly, it was based [00:20:25] on their address. So only people who were living close to that area could come [00:20:30] to me and have public dentistry work. Um, and anyone [00:20:35] else from other areas they had to pay. Whereas here it doesn’t matter if you’re living close by, like you could come from [00:20:40] literally the different city or have the NHS.

Mahan Mohaghegh: And I think we got like a chance to try. [00:20:45] I mean, I know that you said you don’t like that idea that you can like practice [00:20:50] on people, but the thing is, like as a dentist or as like any other professional, [00:20:55] you need.

[TRANSITION]: To learn how.

Mahan Mohaghegh: To learn. Because if you start by having so much [00:21:00] stress about other stuff, you can’t really learn and you can’t even like, because [00:21:05] the thing is, like, I feel like after graduating from university, you just [00:21:10] found yourself that you think that you know everything, but you, you don’t know anything [00:21:15] actually like you literally, when you just start working, you it’s just different [00:21:20] story, different world. Ward. And because in university they all what they teach [00:21:25] you is just how to do it. For example, feeling in perfect condition, how to do crowns, [00:21:30] perfect condition.

[TRANSITION]: How to.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Do root canals. They don’t really teach you [00:21:35] this sort of thing, which you need. You need experience. And in Hungary, that’s because after [00:21:40] I moved here, I’ve heard from, uh, like people who [00:21:45] graduate in, uh, UK, uh, that, uh, basically they didn’t got [00:21:50] enough chance to try so many stuff, like even with the root canals, what most [00:21:55] people, they just refer the root canal position. Whereas in Hungary we used [00:22:00] to do lots of like root canals and molars six seven and yeah, [00:22:05] that was such, I think good experience. And yeah, we did [00:22:10] uh, yeah. Learn a lot, I feel. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So did you work in one of those state clinics as well? [00:22:15]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was that first. And then uh, there was like a private practice [00:22:20] as well that I used to work, but there weren’t in Budapest. It was all [00:22:25] in like a small town. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And how did you pick up Hungarian? Just by osmosis. Or [00:22:30] did you go to classes or.

Sara Khandan: No, just just yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: We had like, [00:22:35] as she said, like in during university there was like there were like few courses. [00:22:40] But yeah, we didn’t learn much. It was mainly. Yeah through the working. It was [00:22:45] interesting how you can learn by just. But yeah I like I couldn’t, [00:22:50] I still can’t like really write or. Yeah but I can [00:22:55] speak quite good. I mean after two years living here it’s a bit [00:23:00] vague but still. Yeah, I feel like if I start the conversation then I [00:23:05] can carry on in Hungarian. It is very hard.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And not [00:23:10] many people speak English, right?

Sara Khandan: No, not many speaking. Maybe better in Budapest, but [00:23:15] other cities, definitely not many people speak. And then it’s very. You can’t use Hungarian anywhere. [00:23:20] Like you go through all that effort to learn that language and you can’t use it anywhere else. [00:23:25] It’s just a waste of time, to be fair.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But you can’t. Sorry. You can’t just [00:23:30] find Hungary. Although there are like 10 million population of them, they can find them [00:23:35] anywhere. The first day that we reached, we arrived to UK. We had [00:23:40] to go to. We booked a hotel and we went there and the receptionist. [00:23:45]

[TRANSITION]: Was Hungarian.

Mahan Mohaghegh: And he is not Hungarian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:23:50] there’s plenty of Hungarians in London.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember I went to Dental [00:23:55] world maybe 15 years ago, trying to sell enlightened [00:24:00] to a distributor over there, and they had a translator for me and I [00:24:05] was thinking, why do I need a translator? Then I realised why I need a translator. I [00:24:10] mean, back then no one really spoke very.

[TRANSITION]: Good.

Payman Langroudi: English, but I think it’s changed a lot [00:24:15] now.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Back then it was, I think, the more like they used to learn [00:24:20] like German. Yeah. More. Yeah, more.

Sara Khandan: And Russian as well.

Mahan Mohaghegh: And Russian [00:24:25] a bit. Yeah. German. It was. Yeah. The second language that they used to learn before. [00:24:30] Now it’s a bit more English. Yeah. And the new generation, they, they, they [00:24:35] speak English better I would say.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve had times in Budapest [00:24:40] as well.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good town, I like Budapest.

[TRANSITION]: It’s beautiful. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: It’s [00:24:45] beautiful.

[TRANSITION]: Good town. It’s, it’s it’s very nice.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah I love Budapest [00:24:50] party town. Really it is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because maybe I just partied there [00:24:55] a lot. I don’t.

[TRANSITION]: Know, it’s like super, super clubs.

Payman Langroudi: There’s that Sziget festival. [00:25:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah festival. Yeah, yeah. It’s nice because it’s a bit [00:25:05] cheaper obviously as well that’s uh, makes it really great. And [00:25:10] the weather is nice in summer. Yeah. And uh, but.

[TRANSITION]: It does.

Sara Khandan: Get really busy [00:25:15] in summer. Budapest gets really, really busy.

Payman Langroudi: So then the decision to come to the UK was that [00:25:20] at what point? Or was that always in your head?

Sara Khandan: It was [00:25:25] in our head. Even when we graduated, we did look around and we searched [00:25:30] if we can get registered in GDC and they said that, sorry, you’re um, [00:25:35] from Iran, which is not in EU. Even if you graduated in EU, [00:25:40] but still because you’re not EU national, we cannot register. You have to go through the exams. Um, [00:25:45] we were like, okay, um, at one point we were deciding maybe we [00:25:50] should do the exams. And then literally there were many countries that we were thinking of at [00:25:55] some point. Then we were like, okay, let’s go to Belgium because we had a friend who went to Belgium and he was really thriving, [00:26:00] and we were like, okay, maybe that’s not a bad idea. And then at some point we wanted to go to Ireland, [00:26:05] um, and Canada and then eventually [00:26:10] UK. Um, they removed the exams in UK because [00:26:15] of Brexit and obviously Covid happened. Um, and we were like, this is the best opportunity ever. [00:26:20] We did spend a lot with all those registrations for different countries, but we were [00:26:25] like, let’s, let’s do this. I mean, they’re putting everything for us now. We don’t have to do the exams, so let’s just [00:26:30] get registered. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And all those other countries had exams.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:26:35]

Payman Langroudi: Belgium had uncertainty, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Sara Khandan: Canada had. We even applied for the permanent [00:26:40] residence and everything. We didn’t get it, but we were in the process. We paid lawyers and everything. Um, Canada [00:26:45] had exams, Belgium, um, language exam. Um, [00:26:50] we were gonna go to the Dutch part.

[TRANSITION]: Flemish?

Sara Khandan: Exactly. Flemish part.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:26:55] Got another.

Payman Langroudi: Another language to learn.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Sara Khandan: And they were [00:27:00] so nice. Even I don’t regret anything. We spent a fortune in the process. [00:27:05] But I don’t regret a single thing. Because when we were applying [00:27:10] for Belgium, We were taking Flemish classes and we came across this [00:27:15] amazing teacher. We had online classes and we just got so close to that teacher. Um, [00:27:20] during Christmas time, she was like, you should, you guys should come to Belgium and [00:27:25] visit us. She just invited us to her home, her daughter home as well, [00:27:30] during Christmas, and we went there and celebrated it with them, just how nice they were. And [00:27:35] she’s actually coming to visit us in August.

[TRANSITION]: Nice.

Sara Khandan: After so many years. Yeah, we’re gonna see her again. [00:27:40] Um, but yeah, with UK, it’s just again seemed [00:27:45] quite straightforward. Um, we were like, let’s, let’s do this. Let’s see where [00:27:50] life gets us. And if.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Wasn’t like in English, the language barrier basically. [00:27:55] So it was in English.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you learn [00:28:00] English?

Sara Khandan: Oh. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Iran.

Sara Khandan: I mostly learned it when I went to Malaysia. [00:28:05]

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Sara Khandan: That’s that’s the, um, place where I learned it. But I was taking English [00:28:10] classes in Iran as well. So we always had the foundation.

Mahan Mohaghegh: We always like from [00:28:15] the from the age of 6 or 7, our parents, we used to they lots [00:28:20] of, uh, basically, uh, children, they just go to the [00:28:25] private schools to learn the language, basically to English mainly. [00:28:30] And uh, then again, like when you grow up, you just hear [00:28:35] all like everywhere English.

[TRANSITION]: So films.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Films.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Media [00:28:40] everywhere.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But yeah. And then you studied in [00:28:45] English as well in university as well. Yeah. [00:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: So had you already sorted out a job in England before you moved?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Oh [00:28:55] yeah.

Sara Khandan: So we had the interview with the company that we went to. Um, [00:29:00] we didn’t, we just had the online interview because obviously we didn’t come to visit the country [00:29:05] before we came.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you come across that?

Sara Khandan: Um, just searching online. So [00:29:10] that’s why we had to go through many interviews and we came across, um, [00:29:15] with the Southcliffe. That’s where we started working for, um, [00:29:20] again, because we had no idea how things [00:29:25] are here. It was a very hard decision, very risky. [00:29:30] But we were like, we have to take that risk. There is no way to be prepared for everything. [00:29:35] Let’s just go. Go with the flow, see what happens. And we still don’t [00:29:40] regret it. Obviously, we had very hard times when we came here just getting adapted to the whole [00:29:45] system, especially NHS being so complicated. Uh, but again, um, [00:29:50] I think we were quite lucky with, with what we chose and where we went.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:29:55] southcliffe I know them well.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, was there like an induction, [00:30:00] like were they, did they train you on the NHS?

Sara Khandan: Um. [00:30:05]

[TRANSITION]: Go ahead.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. So there wasn’t much of induction, [00:30:10] but we used to have. So basically, uh, there there [00:30:15] is a clinical director there that, uh, because for the NHS, you know, you [00:30:20] have to, uh, first you will get like a conditional performer number. [00:30:25] So which you have to be mentored for at least six months for us because [00:30:30] we had like some experience, uh, outside the UK. So for [00:30:35] us it was six months, uh, that we were like, uh, under supervision. [00:30:40] So we had like a mentor, him as a mentor. He taught [00:30:45] us quite a lot. He taught us everything. I’m like really thankful. And [00:30:50] yeah, he he he is he he he basically he was dealing also with [00:30:55] the all the complaints and everything in the, uh, basically the company as [00:31:00] well. And uh, you know, how like lots of [00:31:05] maybe other dentists or even like, uh, the, uh, CEO [00:31:10] of the companies, they just want to ask you to perform more. Not [00:31:15] like. Yeah, but he wasn’t like that. So he was going old. Like [00:31:20] he was basically giving you the right way. Not like the best. Uh, how [00:31:25] to sell everything, how to, like, increase your, uh, basically, uh, [00:31:30] performance. So that was, uh, I think we were, like, really lucky that we had him. [00:31:35] Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But what was he? He wasn’t teaching you the actual dentistry. He was.

[TRANSITION]: Teaching? [00:31:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching you how the NHS works.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Exactly. How we can do the NHS. How like [00:31:45] the basically law and regulations are in, in, in UK because, uh, [00:31:50] it’s totally different. It’s it’s like different approach here. So [00:31:55] here is more I would say like preventive. Uh, but in Hungary [00:32:00] it used to be like patient like more emergency focus. So patient they used to come and [00:32:05] just if they have like a pain or it would be really rare that patient would just [00:32:10] come for like a check-up. And even in the university it was the same. So even in the [00:32:15] university nobody would like we wouldn’t really take any bitewings [00:32:20] during the the university, they didn’t even teach us. It was mainly OPG. And [00:32:25] if you’re doing like root canal treatments, you would just take PA periapical. But [00:32:30] uh, here we learned about these things and how [00:32:35] and also in Hungary, they used to be I mean, they’re still [00:32:40] like you would see lots of bridges work. Yeah. Done. But [00:32:45] in here it’s mainly especially in NHS, I would say lots of dentures. [00:32:50] And one thing that I noticed again is here, [00:32:55] I think the labs, dental labs, they are quite really good at making [00:33:00] dentures. Yeah. Because in, in, in Hungary we had to like even like [00:33:05] we this is how we learn in Hungary. So we had to take basically alginate [00:33:10] impression and then take like a border moulding do all these things. [00:33:15] But here we came. And first of all in NHS, I saw that the dentist, they just [00:33:20] take one impression one alginate and the lab, they would just make the denture. Uh, [00:33:25] but there are actually most of them. They go smoothly, but I [00:33:30] feel like uh, it’s because they do lots of dentures, uh, every [00:33:35] day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, this is what I mean, man. This is what I mean about the, you know, like training in a system [00:33:40] that you want to work in, you know, because that’s not the way we were taught, right? To [00:33:45] do a primary impression. There was secondary.

[TRANSITION]: Secondary impression. Yeah, exactly. [00:33:50]

Payman Langroudi: And all of all of that stuff. Um, but somehow the NHS makes you [00:33:55] speed up and and missteps. Right. And sometimes. Yeah, I guess, you know, [00:34:00] you don’t have to, right?

[TRANSITION]: No, you don’t have to.

Payman Langroudi: You can do it the right way if you want.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. [00:34:05] That’s true.

[TRANSITION]: That’s what then go broke. And I think that’s.

Sara Khandan: Why we were.

[TRANSITION]: Quite lucky.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Always [00:34:10] like the NHS they would say.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: Because the mentor that we had, that’s exactly what [00:34:15] he taught us. He was like, never. You’re going to be pressurised at some point, but never [00:34:20] let that bring down the quality of the work that you’re going to do. Because at the end of the day, you’re here to do dentistry. [00:34:25] And it’s not about the profit that you have to make, because obviously the CEOs, the companies, [00:34:30] wherever you want to work for, especially in NHS, they will push you at some point, like do more, do more, do more. [00:34:35] It’s never enough. But he was like, always think about that patient and imagine that patient [00:34:40] being part of your family. What would you do for that patient? And I think it’s extremely important [00:34:45] when you come to a new country for, in our case, UK, to have a very good [00:34:50] mentor, because that mentor is going to be the person who’s going to build the foundation of [00:34:55] you performing as some sort of professional in that country. And I think [00:35:00] we’re really, really lucky with him because he taught us proper dentistry. I mean, obviously we [00:35:05] knew how to work as a dentist, but not in UK.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. But I think at the [00:35:10] same time, I understand the, uh, practice owners as well because it’s, [00:35:15] uh, you have to, as you said, otherwise you’re gonna go broke. So [00:35:20] they have to. Yeah. Pressure to do more, uh, pressurise the [00:35:25] the dentists and the the employers to just, uh, employees to just, uh, [00:35:30] keep on doing more udas otherwise. Yeah. You have to pay the nurses. Dentists? [00:35:35] Yeah. And you know how the cost of everything is nowadays. [00:35:40] And I think as far as I know, the so everything [00:35:45] is going up with the inflation, but the amounts that the practices they will get [00:35:50] from NHS is not like keeping up with inflation. So I think. Yeah. [00:35:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve only ever had one person in here [00:36:00] in this pod tell me that they’ve got an NHS practice, that all the dentists are [00:36:05] happy and thriving.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, [00:36:10] I mean, I don’t know, maybe I’m selecting private dentists. [00:36:15] Enlightened dentists tend to be more private. Right.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Um, she was [00:36:20] saying, oh, you know, we’re happy. The patients are happy. The dentists are happy. Everyone’s happy. And I believed her. She wasn’t. She [00:36:25] wasn’t lying about it, you know. She hasn’t come out yet that episode. Um, but. So [00:36:30] how long did you work in the NHS before you decided to move to a [00:36:35] private practice?

Sara Khandan: Two and a half year.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: So one [00:36:40] thing with us is we, again, with the visa situation, [00:36:45] you get dependence on the company that you’re working for.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: Um, and based [00:36:50] on how your contract is with that company, um, it might not be too easy to come [00:36:55] out of it. So one thing that I would definitely mention to people listening [00:37:00] to this podcast, especially those ones who are coming and need the visa, um, skilled [00:37:05] worker visa, make sure that you are really mindful of the contract and how [00:37:10] many years you’re bound to stay. Um, we [00:37:15] had good UDA rates, so at least that was working for us. But the NHS [00:37:20] was definitely something that we were like, it’s it’s just this skill you sometimes. [00:37:25] Yeah, we were trying to do our best honestly. Like I never diminish [00:37:30] the quality that I want to give to my patients. But you it’s more [00:37:35] about quantity. Doesn’t matter if you still do your best. It’s again more about quantity rather [00:37:40] than quality. There is not. Otherwise there’s not going to be any profit. And we were like, this [00:37:45] is not how we want to continue as a dentist, because at the end of the day, one of the reasons that we want to come [00:37:50] here is to progress in our profession. And this is not what.

[TRANSITION]: We expected for.

Payman Langroudi: Especially [00:37:55] having been through everything you’ve been through. Right.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I [00:38:00] was like a spoilt 17 year old. Parents said, what do you want to do? I don’t know. [00:38:05] And they said, oh, why don’t you try dentistry? And [00:38:10] then I did and I got to university. Spoilt 18 year old, you know like had a lot of fun. [00:38:15] And you know, I didn’t go through that hassle that you guys went through [00:38:20] change country twice to get here. Yeah. In a way, for you guys, it’s even more important [00:38:25] that you’re then in a profession that you know you’re progressing the way you want to progress.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly.

Sara Khandan: That’s [00:38:30] exactly what I was actually telling Mohan when we started NHS. I was like, this is [00:38:35] even I feel trapped. I mean, I was thinking coming here looking [00:38:40] for freedom, but I don’t know why. I feel even more trapped in the system now. [00:38:45] Um.

[TRANSITION]: And what’s.

Payman Langroudi: The worst thing about the NHS for.

[TRANSITION]: You?

Mahan Mohaghegh: I [00:38:50] would say I think the the [00:38:55] complaint system in NHS. I to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know about it. Tell me.

[TRANSITION]: About [00:39:00] it.

Mahan Mohaghegh: So so I feel like, uh I’m, I haven’t had like major [00:39:05] complaint. Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Uh, but, uh, I mean, [00:39:10] like, I, I’ve heard lots of stories and even from this, my mentor, because he, as [00:39:15] I said, he used to deal with the complaints and everything.

Payman Langroudi: That was the same guy that mentored [00:39:20] both of you?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Uh, so basically everything [00:39:25] like with, with, like, so all the issues and everything [00:39:30] that the patients they have, they when they contact NHS [00:39:35] complaint Service, they just go through lots of [00:39:40] these basically issues. They can be handled like within the practice and they [00:39:45] don’t need all these papers. Yeah. Locally. And they’re not like really major issues. But [00:39:50] with most of them, they just have to. Yeah, they just, uh, start the process [00:39:55] and then it’s just going to take a long time. You have to email, you have to send letters. [00:40:00] And, and I think lots of these things, they just I mean, it’s a waste [00:40:05] of money, I think also for the NHS as well, because they obviously have to have like, [00:40:10] uh, employees working on these cases as well and lots of stress [00:40:15] because it takes lots of time and there is lots of stress for the dentist for, uh, [00:40:20] which they have to bear. Basically. I think it’s, it’s, it’s [00:40:25] really that’s I would say the main thing.

[TRANSITION]: For.

Sara Khandan: Me, it would be the banding [00:40:30] system. It just doesn’t make sense. You would do extraction, root canal, denture [00:40:35] and everything just in one band. It’s it’s I think that is very, very unfair. [00:40:40] That’s definitely something that just doesn’t make any sense.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I [00:40:45] remember when that came in. A bunch of people left the NHS at that point. It’s [00:40:50] almost like a conspiracy to break it step by step. You know, like, um, because some people [00:40:55] were happy with the previous system and it was, you know, like fee per item.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Type system. [00:41:00] It was a cheap fee per item. Um, I personally used to hate the idea that there’s someone else [00:41:05] even involved. You know, you’ve got dentist patient and the idea there’s [00:41:10] someone else involved, like a government.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who used to do my head in. What’s most surprises [00:41:15] you about? Like, what you can and can’t do?

[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:41:20]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the banding system itself, but.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, I [00:41:25] would say.

Sara Khandan: I preferred [00:41:30] the way how the system was in Hungary. A little.

[TRANSITION]: Bit. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: Free for everyone.

Sara Khandan: It was free for everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What what could you do? And what couldn’t you do [00:41:40] in Hungary?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Sara Khandan: We. The very simple ones, for [00:41:45] instance, extraction, fillings, things like that. It was free.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you said.

[TRANSITION]: It [00:41:50] was complicated.

Sara Khandan: Exactly. But anything with any denture.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. Crowns. [00:41:55] Bridges. They were.

[TRANSITION]: They was.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Private.

Sara Khandan: I think there was a very exact clear line. [00:42:00] And it was just clear for everyone.

Payman Langroudi: And explain. Do you want an NHS filling or a private filling. [00:42:05]

Sara Khandan: Right here it’s just explaining and the differences. And you [00:42:10] still can count everything in NHS even cobalt Chrome.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Always be worried that. [00:42:15]

[TRANSITION]: Oh yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Would I say too much?

[TRANSITION]: Did I say yeah. Did I say bad about it.

Sara Khandan: And [00:42:20] it just takes away.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It’s just.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: It takes away your focus of the work that [00:42:25] you want to do. And then you just have to worry so much about the whatever. You have to [00:42:30] explain that you cannot focus more on the practical work.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think also I think [00:42:35] it makes you either, uh overtreat [00:42:40] in some cases or in some cases you which you, [00:42:45] for example, like if, let’s say if there is like a, for example, like [00:42:50] a broken tooth, which you need to do, root canal treatments and all these like treatments, [00:42:55] a lot of time you might be able to do it, but you think as a [00:43:00] dentist it’s too much work for me. And at the end of the day, I’m not going to get [00:43:05] enough. So let’s just tell the patient that it’s not restorable anymore. That’s also the. [00:43:10]

[TRANSITION]: System is pushing you that way. Yes.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Either you overtreat to get like 3 or [00:43:15] 5 udaas or the other way around. So yeah, [00:43:20] I think it’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then the move to private. Did you find [00:43:25] it hard finding a private job?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Sara Khandan: Um, mostly again because [00:43:30] of the visa situation. Not a lot of because to be able to get visa here, you [00:43:35] that practice has to have a sponsorship certificate so that they can [00:43:40] sponsor you as as employees, and not a lot of private practices do. So [00:43:45] again, being a foreigner, a foreign dentist, it your, [00:43:50] um, options are halved because either you have to go and look for an [00:43:55] NHS one because usually it’s the NHS practices that that would offer the sponsorship or [00:44:00] not a very good location. So the good places are not really [00:44:05] offering those sponsorship certificates. And we were quite lucky with, with our, um, [00:44:10] employers now because we were the first ones that they were sponsoring for. And [00:44:15] um, I think it worked out really well. We were really lucky. Good location. And again, good, [00:44:20] really, really good. Um, employers.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But it’s like a different world. It’s a completely [00:44:25] different industry. Yeah. As you said, there is no one else involved. Yeah. So it’s. [00:44:30] Yeah. Take a lot of pressure out of you, I think. So [00:44:35] you have.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a different type of pressure.

[TRANSITION]: Different obviously.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. Obviously it’s not [00:44:40] easy. I wouldn’t say.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, what you’re saying about conversations. Yeah. Private [00:44:45] entity is all about conversations. Yes. It’s it’s more about conversations than NHS. You [00:44:50] understand the type of conversation is different.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I hear I hear what you’re saying [00:44:55] about, you know, how do you explain to a patient the difference between an NHS composite and a private composite. [00:45:00]

[TRANSITION]: It’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult for a patient to understand. I’m going to take longer for instance. It’s [00:45:05] not it’s not something patients get their heads around. But, you know, I was telling [00:45:10] you about. My wife had an operation. We picked the surgeon based on what he said, not [00:45:15] based on who he was.

Sara Khandan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And that was a major operation. [00:45:20] Yeah. And so your manner with the patient, the way that you you handle [00:45:25] people, is absolutely key in private. Right. Absolutely. Key. [00:45:30] Maybe more important than the actual dentistry itself in dentistry, the patient [00:45:35] has no idea what you’re doing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s not. It’s not like a restaurant, right? It’s not like the, you [00:45:40] know. Eventually, however nice the waitresses, however nice the decor is, in the [00:45:45] end, the plate of food is going to come in front of you and you’re going to taste it and see how it is. That’s not the case in [00:45:50] dentistry, right? The patient has no idea.

[TRANSITION]: What you’re talking about. What happened exactly?

Payman Langroudi: Did you do [00:45:55] a good job or a bad job? I used to have a boss, one of the most charming people you ever [00:46:00] meet. But you know the work. You know, he was. He was behind. Yeah, he was, he was. [00:46:05] He was an old school guy. He was well behind on what was possible and so on. Um, [00:46:10] but patients used to adore him. Yeah, because he was so charming. So my point is this [00:46:15] that you need the conversations are way, way, way more important in private things [00:46:20] like painless dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: I think the point is, yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think the point is, [00:46:25] uh, like you have to basically the patient, they need to trust you. [00:46:30] Yeah. And it’s just that comes with the time. So yeah, after like few [00:46:35] years working at the same practice in one practice and you get your [00:46:40] regular patients. Then slowly it will. And obviously, as you [00:46:45] said, it’s the first approach is really important. Like especially I feel [00:46:50] like with nervous patients it’s yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s very.

Payman Langroudi: Mind. Half the population [00:46:55] are nervous.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah exactly.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. That’s the thing with fear of dentists. But but [00:47:00] yeah.

Sara Khandan: That’s what I feel is much easier in private because you have lots of time [00:47:05] and you can go through all those conversations. And yes, with NHS we [00:47:10] have to have some sort of conversation about the differences in materials or the time that we have [00:47:15] to put for certain treatments that we have to do. But again, the time is so limited [00:47:20] that you don’t get the privilege of talking to patients about many things. Whereas in private [00:47:25] dentistry you have lots of time, so you get to know the patient better. They get to trust you even [00:47:30] even more. And I think that’s what makes it way easier.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But at the same time. Sorry. [00:47:35] Yeah, I think I said that in NHS sometimes you can see like over treatments, [00:47:40] but it’s more than private. But I [00:47:45] wouldn’t say that in private. It’s not such a case because I have seen some cases [00:47:50] that when I was working as an NHS dentist, I used to have like [00:47:55] some patients, they had like a check-up with like a private practice [00:48:00] and they, they gave them like a huge list of like treatments [00:48:05] that they would need lots of like feelings and these sort of things. And when I [00:48:10] did the check-up, I literally like, for example, it was written that you need five fillings [00:48:15] and it was only one feeling that needs to be done, needed to be done basically. So [00:48:20] that’s also it happens on the I think at the end of the day, it’s like.

Sara Khandan: Your [00:48:25] morality.

[TRANSITION]: As a.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Dentist of the dentist. I think also it’s really important. [00:48:30]

Payman Langroudi: Although, you know, there’s been loads of research on this. Five dentists, six [00:48:35] treatment plans. Right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Because it’s not like an exact science.

[TRANSITION]: So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:48:40] true. But on the other side of it, what is it to be a professional? What is it? [00:48:45] What does it mean? You know, it’s different. It’s different to selling, uh, books. [00:48:50]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What does it mean to be a professional? It really is what you do when no one else [00:48:55] is looking. And as a dentist, most of the time, no one’s looking. Yeah. [00:49:00] Even your even your nurse not looking, you know, she can’t. She can’t see what you’re up to. Yeah. So [00:49:05] what do you do when no one else is looking? And what your mentor said about treat people like they were your family. [00:49:10] Really important. Really important way of looking at it to sort of, you [00:49:15] know, the difference between right and wrong in that sense. Yeah. Um, at [00:49:20] the same, at the same time, we could all three of us come to different conclusions. You know, that even [00:49:25] treating people like our family.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. That’s true. That’s completely true.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:49:30] how long have you been in the private practice now?

Mahan Mohaghegh: A few.

[TRANSITION]: Months. Few months? Yeah. Oh, [00:49:35] okay.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Since April? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So the prices.

Payman Langroudi: Shock you to start.

[TRANSITION]: With?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. [00:49:40] It is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really exciting at the beginning. When you move, when you move, practice and the prices are higher. It’s really [00:49:45] exciting for about a month. Yeah. Then you quickly get used to that [00:49:50] new price.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Then that’s become your routine. Yeah, exactly.

Mahan Mohaghegh: But [00:49:55] yeah, we’re just starting to basically building up. So obviously the private [00:50:00] practice.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, there aren’t many patients.

Mahan Mohaghegh: There are patients. But you have to build [00:50:05] up even like with all it’s not like NHS because we used to have like NHS [00:50:10] experience. So 15 minutes appointment and your diary [00:50:15] is booked one week, two weeks in advance.

[TRANSITION]: So it’s.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. [00:50:20]

[TRANSITION]: So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so actually one of the reasons I got into whitening was because I was in this [00:50:25] very expensive private practice and we were booked maybe two [00:50:30] days ahead. And this question, this one you’re talking about this this what does the system [00:50:35] make you do an examination today? If I didn’t find [00:50:40] something to do on this patient in two days time, I wouldn’t have a patient.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly. Yeah. [00:50:45]

Payman Langroudi: And that’s when I started going into well, forget needs. Let’s look at wants. Yeah. [00:50:50] And then whitening and I suddenly everyone was having whitening.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:50:55]

Payman Langroudi: Because because they, they wanted it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s how I got into whitening [00:51:00] in the first place. But also I was in Folkestone at that point. Yeah. And so similar to [00:51:05] Worthing. Mhm. Um older patients their best. Their [00:51:10] best, they are the best patients. And one thing you’ll notice here is if you ever move [00:51:15] from that area, um, you think you’re a much better dentist than you are [00:51:20] because older patients are great patients. They don’t complain.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:51:25] they’re extremely nice.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve got money, they respect you [00:51:30] and your profession and all that. And the thing is, they haven’t got pulp’s, right?

[TRANSITION]: That’s [00:51:35] true. You know, it’s harder, harder.

Payman Langroudi: Harder [00:51:40] to hurt them, you know. I remember we used to do veneers. No temporaries back [00:51:45] then. Back then it was just temporaries were one thing.

Sara Khandan: You cannot [00:51:50] lay the chair back to too much.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, a few of those. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:51:55] a lot of them want to talk more, which makes it more pleasant as well. And it’s funny, you guys, [00:52:00] you’re kind of kind of at the early in your career. But when, when I stopped practising [00:52:05] in 2012. And when you stop, you realise what was [00:52:10] it you liked and what was it you didn’t like? Yeah. And it turns out for me, [00:52:15] I’m not that interested in teeth. Yeah, much more interested in people than than teeth. [00:52:20] And that’s what I miss, people. You know, I don’t particularly miss the, you know, Lego [00:52:25] doing this?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. No, [00:52:30] I’m also about the elderlies. I think it’s they have like lots of them. [00:52:35] They have like a really bad experience from the dentistry in childhood.

[TRANSITION]: From the childhood, [00:52:40] that’s why.

Mahan Mohaghegh: So whatever you do now, although it seems like it’s normal nowadays, [00:52:45] but they, they will be really happy. That’s all. That’s all. I think that’s why [00:52:50] lots of them they have like fear of dentists.

Sara Khandan: That’s very anxious. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:52:55] talk about where it’s going to go next. I mean, what kind of dentist you want to be in the long [00:53:00] run?

Sara Khandan: I really want to do more cosmetics. Um, actually [00:53:05] gonna go through a course in a few months time.

[TRANSITION]: Which one?

Sara Khandan: Cruiser.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really? [00:53:10] Good, cause.

Sara Khandan: Um, so I really want to do more aesthetics. Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get into it?

Sara Khandan: Yeah, [00:53:15] I registered it goes out so quick.

Payman Langroudi: In that half an hour.

[TRANSITION]: It’s three [00:53:20] minutes.

Sara Khandan: In three minutes. Um, so the course, the registration [00:53:25] was at 8:00. Eight, three. Everything cool?

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Sara Khandan: Um, so [00:53:30] I definitely want to do more cosmetics. Um, I, I don’t [00:53:35] want to specialise. I quite enjoy doing general dentistry, and, um, [00:53:40] I, I really like being able to do many treatments, [00:53:45] different kind of treatments. I don’t want to just be have that tunnel vision with something. [00:53:50] I rather do multiple treatments, like I enjoy doing Invisalign, composite [00:53:55] bonding, veneers. Um, so I’d rather continue doing that even even down [00:54:00] the line.

Payman Langroudi: And, um.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, for me it’s more surgical areas. [00:54:05] Yeah. Implants like graft, these sort of things. And, [00:54:10] uh, yeah, we would like to at some point opening our own [00:54:15] practice and. Yeah, uh, I think that [00:54:20] would be like a interesting and exciting journey. I think it’s going to be difficult. [00:54:25] It’s difficult to run the practice. Uh, but yeah, [00:54:30] I’m seeing myself there to have like, my own practice [00:54:35] and, uh, I think it’s, uh. Yeah, it’s like a different journey [00:54:40] and it’s it’s going to be really.

Payman Langroudi: So have you done much surgical already or.

Mahan Mohaghegh: No. [00:54:45] I am planning to go to the course for the implant.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Burt [00:54:50] in Leeds. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Uh, so this is basically. [00:54:55] But I have done lots of, like, difficult extractions back, back in Hungary [00:55:00] and, like, uh, incisions, these sort of things I have done in, um, [00:55:05] like blood.

[TRANSITION]: Huh.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Funny, because, uh, when I [00:55:10] was in university, I think we had, like, uh, pathology, and, [00:55:15] um, it was our first practical, uh, maybe a class [00:55:20] and even the pathology. You know, like, you see, like cadavers and everything. [00:55:25] And it was smelling really bad the first day I didn’t I wasn’t eating, I didn’t eat anything. [00:55:30] I went there, and suddenly I felt like my head is shaking.

Payman Langroudi: I was smelling [00:55:35] that smell all over the place.

[TRANSITION]: After that.

Mahan Mohaghegh: We used to wear, like, two masks [00:55:40] and.

[TRANSITION]: Put aftershave on. Yeah. Good idea, good idea. But yeah. [00:55:45]

Mahan Mohaghegh: But now. Yeah. I love like this. A bit like surgical stuff. And I [00:55:50] feel like we were, like, talking. And I think because we are like partners. So [00:55:55] it’s better to just. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Each in different direction.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Direction rather than. Yeah. [00:56:00] Uh, yeah. So I’m more towards that [00:56:05] sort of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So what would your practice look like? Like have you got [00:56:10] an idea of, like, what kind of. Maybe it’s a bit too early to decide.

[TRANSITION]: I think so. [00:56:15]

Sara Khandan: It’s very true. Because even if you want to open a practice, that would definitely be in five years or six years [00:56:20] time, so not any time soon. Um, I, I would [00:56:25] definitely make it a fully private practice because nothing [00:56:30] with energies. Because, um. What? Um, not that anything against [00:56:35] energies or like performance numbers. I think it is very essential to still have a performance number [00:56:40] in this country because NHS is still the foundation of dentistry [00:56:45] here. But, um, hopefully in five years time it would be more [00:56:50] of the private dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think you need to perform a number anymore.

Sara Khandan: Do [00:56:55] you think so? I am still happy that I went [00:57:00] through everything with NHS for the first.

Payman Langroudi: You did that, but I don’t think you really need to bother [00:57:05] anymore. I mean, imagine going back to the NHS now.

[TRANSITION]: It would be really difficult. [00:57:10] It would be very, very even.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Even like, as I said, like we work two days now, [00:57:15] still we do two days NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Find that.

[TRANSITION]: Hard. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It’s amazing [00:57:20] because I used to work five days, 8 to 5 NHS [00:57:25] and it was like a routine for me. But after doing like a few days private, it’s [00:57:30] just difficult to do that NHS thing again. It’s been only like few months now, [00:57:35] so imagine if you work like few years and then want to go back. It’s. But I think it’s [00:57:40] with the NHS and private. We talk about that a lot. But I [00:57:45] think that then it’s the some, some dentists they still would rather [00:57:50] do NHS. I don’t know how they like how why, [00:57:55] I don’t know why they like it but lots of. Yeah I’ve heard like some as you said, like [00:58:00] you heard from one uh, like one of your interview.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but.

[TRANSITION]: I know. [00:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: I know the kind of dentists you’re talking about. There’s some some dentists don’t want to talk to the patient. [00:58:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, they know, you know, that. How to navigate [00:58:15] the NHS system. And, uh, you know, that’s [00:58:20] the life.

[TRANSITION]: That.

Payman Langroudi: They’re good at doing. I get that.

[TRANSITION]: I get it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think it’s [00:58:25] right for you to do.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, I.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Can’t do that. That’s the thing. So I can’t really I [00:58:30] can’t see myself doing that. Not that I’m like perfect or.

[TRANSITION]: Like a different.

Payman Langroudi: Way.

[TRANSITION]: Of practising. [00:58:35] Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It’s a different. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: And I think what really makes it harder now that [00:58:40] we’re doing private and NHS, it’s just you have to change all your mentality. [00:58:45] Like when you go to the NHS practice, you have to see things differently rather than [00:58:50] when you go to a fully.

[TRANSITION]: Very.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to.

[TRANSITION]: Do both.

Sara Khandan: It’s very.

[TRANSITION]: Hard.

Payman Langroudi: You end up either slowing down your NHS [00:58:55] or speeding up your.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of those things and I would suggest slow down. Your NHS [00:59:00] is the best way to do that. Um, maybe get photos or whatever, [00:59:05] you know, improve. Um, because.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the right [00:59:10] move. Let’s get to darker days.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s been the darkest day in this journey? [00:59:15]

Sara Khandan: Um. The beginning when we came here. [00:59:20] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Darker than all the stuff that happened in Hungary.

Sara Khandan: Yeah, definitely.

[TRANSITION]: Why? [00:59:25]

Sara Khandan: I was so scared. Obviously, we had heard about the [00:59:30] sewing culture and everything here in this country. But once we escape. [00:59:35] So we we, like, we haven’t had the experience, but just the fear of it was [00:59:40] so hard on us. I remember at the beginning, when we came here, I couldn’t even sleep [00:59:45] at night. I literally I was that scared. I was like, oh my [00:59:50] God, what to do? What sort of notes do I have to write? Because we didn’t have we didn’t have to write a lot of [00:59:55] notes in back in Hungary, like nothing at all.

Payman Langroudi: Now you’re writing essays?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, exactly.

Sara Khandan: Like, what should [01:00:00] I mention? What should I write? Am I doing this right? Like, I had to being a perfectionist [01:00:05] as well. We had to doubt everything. Every single thing. And then because [01:00:10] we started in NHS. I feel like there is. There was also this thought that, [01:00:15] okay, you have had experience before so there’s nothing different, just go and work. Um, [01:00:20] just they did teach us a little bit about NHS, but again they left us there. Go [01:00:25] and start working because obviously you don’t need anything. You’ve been working for many years. So what’s what what to teach [01:00:30] you guys. And that was really scary. Just the, the whole unclarity [01:00:35] of everything.

[TRANSITION]: Like are you still scared?

Sara Khandan: Um, not as much as I used to, [01:00:40] but I always want to double check everything. I’m one of those [01:00:45] kind of kind of dentists. Like, I have to make sure everything is perfect. And that’s why I like it [01:00:50] better with private, because I have my time. I never had that with NHS. And when [01:00:55] even like I did my treatments on NHS, I always did as [01:01:00] much as I could. I wasn’t undertreating like I always tried to, even if [01:01:05] it wasn’t profitable. I was like, no, I have to do this, I have to do it the correct way.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Thing is, if you see [01:01:10] that many patients every day, obviously you’re gonna at some point miss something or [01:01:15] do something wrong. You know what I mean? We’re not like robots. We are like humans, so we [01:01:20] can’t miss. But for me, I think I would say if you, uh, with this [01:01:25] journey, I mean, like I would say in university in, uh, starting the [01:01:30] third year, uh, we so we it was the basically [01:01:35] a prosthodontic, uh, class. So we starting to basically [01:01:40] prep the tooth on the mannequins and these sort of things. And just suddenly, after [01:01:45] four weeks, they taught us about how the tooth prep and everything. And [01:01:50] then from the fourth week, we every week we had to prep a tooth. And [01:01:55] then we had like this teacher that he used to wear like a loop and just, [01:02:00] yeah, examine the tooth itself. If there was like a slight undercut [01:02:05] or everything, they would just fail Failed you. So if you got, like, four, uh, like, [01:02:10] sessions failed as a fail, then you would just.

Payman Langroudi: I could kick you out.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That would kick you out? Yeah, [01:02:15] that was my night. I got I think you were three. Yeah, I got to the [01:02:20] last one. I was like, yeah, the last weeks I was just literally shaking and I. [01:02:25] Now I’m seeing that. What? Why should be like that? You know what I mean? So it’s just the [01:02:30] starting of third year. I’m still like a beginner. So you have to help [01:02:35] the students to learn. Not like, because with that much pressure, obviously, if you [01:02:40] put that pressure on me now as, like a dentist with 7 or 8 years of seven years [01:02:45] experience, I would do a mistake. Even now, I can’t really do a crown [01:02:50] prep without just like perfect. Perfect because I used to wear like a loop to.

[TRANSITION]: See every. [01:02:55]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Single thing.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, it’s weird, that kind of culture of abuse [01:03:00] of a dental student. Yeah, it definitely exists here as well. Yeah, maybe it’s [01:03:05] changed now, but in my day, 100%. And then I remember I became a dentist [01:03:10] and I was a junior, like dentist working in the hospital. And I spoke to one [01:03:15] of my teachers and I said, why were you like that? Like why? And and he said, oh yeah, [01:03:20] suppress your job.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we could put you guys under pressure. And I think that’s [01:03:25] an excuse, man. You know, like it’s almost like the abused person becomes an abuser. [01:03:30]

[TRANSITION]: Themselves or something.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s the thing. So I think it comes from like it’s [01:03:35] going to be like really psychological thing. But like some, some teachers that were like really nice. [01:03:40] But some of them they just yeah, they try to and [01:03:45] I think he was one of that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: One of those.

[TRANSITION]: Guys.

Payman Langroudi: What about mistakes. We like talk about mistakes. [01:03:50] Clinical errors. What comes to mind when I say what’s been your biggest clinical error in this journey? [01:03:55]

Sara Khandan: Um, in my case, I was quite lucky because it happened in the uni, [01:04:00] actually. Um, so this guy came in, we had to remove his old bridge [01:04:05] and we had to root canal one of his front teeth. And then I put on a new bridge. And, um, [01:04:10] when I was doing the root canal, I perforated the tooth because for some reason that tooth was prepared, [01:04:15] and it was really hard to find the proper access cavity on it. Yeah. So his tooth [01:04:20] was, was, um, perforated. And we eventually we had to take the tooth out. [01:04:25]

Payman Langroudi: So I don’t really allow university mistakes. We’ve [01:04:30] all made mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: University.

Payman Langroudi: You think about it.

[TRANSITION]: Tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your biggest mistakes. [01:04:35]

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think mine was, uh, just after, [01:04:40] like, a few weeks or few months, uh, moving to the UK, [01:04:45] and it was like, really? As she said, like a stressful time.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Um, [01:04:50] I was doing like, it was my, I think first, uh, root canal treatment [01:04:55] here, uh, in, uh, basically UK. And, um, I [01:05:00] didn’t have they basically we, we have like a rotary system, but [01:05:05] I didn’t, uh, have my, like, regular, uh, basically, [01:05:10] uh, system.

[TRANSITION]: That used to.

Mahan Mohaghegh: You ever used to. Yeah. I’ve just found, like some rotary [01:05:15] files and I start to do it and. Yeah, I broke broke a file in, [01:05:20] in the canal, and I was like, oh my God, but I think I [01:05:25] shouldn’t have. I mean, I feel so it was like a lower six. [01:05:30] So I fill out the two other canals and I just left that there [01:05:35] and I gave I think I gave antibiotic and it wasn’t. So it’s yeah [01:05:40] there wasn’t causing any issue. So the patient didn’t come back. But yeah [01:05:45] that was.

[TRANSITION]: I.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t get it removed.

[TRANSITION]: Or I.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Couldn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Did you.

Payman Langroudi: Fill around.

[TRANSITION]: It or.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah I did [01:05:50] fill out the top of it. And it was like in a good area. So it wasn’t like it was [01:05:55] like the apical end and it felt like it was. But I gave the patient the [01:06:00] option of doing. He was like, I think he was like 21, 22 [01:06:05] years old. And yeah, he.

[TRANSITION]: Was really.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Care.

Payman Langroudi: He was.

[TRANSITION]: Calm. Yeah. [01:06:10]

Mahan Mohaghegh: He wasn’t really.

[TRANSITION]: Giving.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I was more worried than him. But [01:06:15] yeah, I think that would be my biggest mistake, because I shouldn’t have.

[TRANSITION]: Used [01:06:20] it without knowing.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Without knowing what was.

[TRANSITION]: Going on.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, man. That’s a happy ending. I’m [01:06:25] looking for unhappy ending.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Unhappy ending. [01:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I get it. You fractured an instrument, right? In eight years [01:06:35] of dentistry, there must be something worse than that. Come on.

Sara Khandan: I once was [01:06:40] doing an extraction. The TMJ got dislocated.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I like that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: Um. [01:06:45]

Payman Langroudi: So where was.

[TRANSITION]: This?

Sara Khandan: Hungary.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Sara Khandan: Um, so [01:06:50] for some reason, that tooth wasn’t coming out. It was just. We tried really [01:06:55] hard. It wasn’t coming out. And eventually, I think it was so much pressure on the tooth because we were trying to get [01:07:00] it out and, um, the joint got dislocated.

Payman Langroudi: And did you understand what was happening? [01:07:05]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I mean, you could. Yeah, you could literally.

Sara Khandan: Feel it coming out of the.

[TRANSITION]: Socket.

Sara Khandan: And [01:07:10] the patient was like, I can’t feel my joint. I was like, it’s okay. It’s just dislocated. Like, we can easily put it back [01:07:15] in place. Um, so we, um, just to make sure I wanted her to [01:07:20] be in the hospital, because obviously you have to use a very proper technique. I didn’t want to fracture everything. [01:07:25] Um, so we called the ambulance. She went to the hospital, and they just relocated [01:07:30] the.

Mahan Mohaghegh: The most important things in these cases, I think, is to you as [01:07:35] a dentist. Stay calm. It’s really. It’s difficult. It’s really difficult. But it is the [01:07:40] main thing.

[TRANSITION]: That’s.

Payman Langroudi: Back to that teacher saying, oh, we put pressure on you.

[TRANSITION]: Because. Yeah, thank [01:07:45] you.

Sara Khandan: And I’m really good at this. I always keep my calm. I was freaking [01:07:50] out from inside. I was like, oh my God. This is the first time.

Payman Langroudi: I did my elective in San Francisco. [01:07:55] And on the wall it said, never say oops.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, that’s [01:08:00] the best. Yeah. Oops.

Payman Langroudi: Another another story [01:08:05] for.

[TRANSITION]: You maybe, uh, can’t.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Really find anything.

[TRANSITION]: That treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Planning [01:08:10] error.

[TRANSITION]: Patient.

Payman Langroudi: Lost confidence.

[TRANSITION]: Something like these things. [01:08:15]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. Those things happens I think like.

[TRANSITION]: All right, all right.

Payman Langroudi: It [01:08:20] doesn’t have to be a terrible story. Like, tell me something that’s gone wrong and it’s taught to you.

[TRANSITION]: Uh. [01:08:25]

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry, you know, like like something [01:08:30] that you did. Maybe it failed earlier than you thought it would fail. And you changed your approach. [01:08:35]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Maybe with these things again, first thing I would say is. But [01:08:40] that happens. I think lots of people like dentures. These are like dentures are really [01:08:45] tricky. And even the best, best prosthodontics. Or they could [01:08:50] yeah, have like some cases which have failed, uh, maybe. [01:08:55] I think the only thing that I could remember, I was, like, doing the cobalt chrome denture [01:09:00] and, uh, the, uh, lure, the. When [01:09:05] I asked for the metal, uh, framework trying, I [01:09:10] could feel that, uh, the trying wasn’t sitting full. [01:09:15] It wasn’t going completely in, but I didn’t ask for [01:09:20] another try in, so I didn’t ask.

[TRANSITION]: To modify.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It. I just went ahead. And [01:09:25] then eventually it ended up me giving the money back and everything. I [01:09:30] think that would be the yeah, that’s if you count this one as a bad [01:09:35] outcome.

Sara Khandan: Yeah, I think it does happen.

[TRANSITION]: But that’s a learning point, right? Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s how like [01:09:40] I learned now that if I, if I feel like during this that’s why you do the trying. [01:09:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. You know what I mean.

Mahan Mohaghegh: So if you don’t want to, if you don’t have like, uh, leave [01:09:50] it, then there is no point of doing trying.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: So I think that was my.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:09:55] I like that. I’m gonna let you off the hook.

Sara Khandan: Actually, when you asked me about the darkest [01:10:00] parts, um, I was thinking that and one other thing, which I think was really, really [01:10:05] hard for me when I was back in uni, I always thought, okay, if I try my best, [01:10:10] be the top of my class, everything is, my future is sorted. It’s [01:10:15] just important for me just to be the best, get the highest grade and everything. And eventually it [01:10:20] happened. It was the top of my. I was the top of my class and once I graduated, whenever, [01:10:25] wherever I wanted to go, everyone were like, sorry, you need a visa. It’s just [01:10:30] your nationality. You. It doesn’t matter if you were the best in the uni, you you still [01:10:35] need to go through all that and it’s it’s not going to work out. And I think it I felt [01:10:40] life is really, really unfair. Um, it, it was even up until now again [01:10:45] because of this visa.

[TRANSITION]: Life is unfair.

Sara Khandan: It is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: Life is unfair. There’s no doubt about [01:10:50] that. But, um. But you’re right. I mean, listen, you’ve done really well, both of you. Yeah, because [01:10:55] even guys who qualify here don’t need a visa. A lot of them don’t manage to [01:11:00] go through the NHS into private within three years. A lot of them don’t manage it. So [01:11:05] you’ve both done very well in that respect. Thank you. But having to have a visa in the middle of it [01:11:10] all, um, I think some of the bigger corporates help with visas [01:11:15] as well. Um, but.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It’s mainly the big corporate that they do. [01:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, like what you let’s say you become this wonderful cosmetic [01:11:25] dentist. Yeah. Sometimes you’ll do a wonderful job and the patient will just not [01:11:30] like it. Yeah. And cosmetic dentistry is kind of like that. Yeah. You know, [01:11:35] it’s a big problem. I used to do a lot of veneers back in our day before ortho existed. [01:11:40] Right. Before Invisalign. Before Invisalign existed. And sometimes a patient would walk [01:11:45] out delighted, delighted, and then come back one week later and say, I don’t like.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Sara Khandan: Because of [01:11:50] the family.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, something something happened.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Payman Langroudi: They spent a lot of money. Uh, [01:11:55] you know, you love people for their weaknesses, not their strengths.

[TRANSITION]: That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, [01:12:00] like, I don’t know, the grandchild was used to the spaced teeth or whatever [01:12:05] it is. Yeah. And there’s nothing you can say to someone who says I don’t like it. You [01:12:10] know, even if you said you liked it two weeks ago, I don’t like it now. Yeah, it’s a nightmare. [01:12:15] It’s a total nightmare. And then on, on every sort of scientific basis, maybe you did everything exactly [01:12:20] right, but patient doesn’t like it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, or.

Payman Langroudi: Or it [01:12:25] could be consent. You know, consent. You know, whatever they signed, whatever [01:12:30] you explained, whatever you put in the notes, patients can just say I didn’t understand.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:12:35] yeah, it could happen.

Payman Langroudi: And then. And then sometimes you get the two together. Yeah. It’s a total [01:12:40] nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t understand what the risks were now [01:12:45] that this thing has happened, I also don’t like it. Yeah, a total nightmare [01:12:50] for a cosmetic dentist.

[TRANSITION]: It caused.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Me tears.

[TRANSITION]: It caused me that it’s.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Just gonna.

[TRANSITION]: Start.

Payman Langroudi: A total nightmare [01:12:55] for cosmetic. Now, I like cosmetics, too. Yeah, I like, wants dentistry [01:13:00] rather than needs dentistry. Yeah, but. But they come with their own issues, [01:13:05] right? Each one of them comes with its own issues and, you know, composite bonding, staining. You know, like, God [01:13:10] knows we do a composite course staining that happens with composite, right. The [01:13:15] amount of problems that we’re going to have with composite going forward. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: But [01:13:20] I think at the end of the day it comes down to the communication. I think if you try to communicate [01:13:25] with them profoundly, they would understand the whole process [01:13:30] and the chances of them coming and complaining later is much, much lower.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sara Khandan: So [01:13:35] that’s why private better. Because you have more time for the people.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t sue people they like.

Sara Khandan: That’s so [01:13:40] true. Yeah, that’s that’s what was different from Hungary because, um, in here, communication [01:13:45] is so important and it’s not about your clinical skill, but more [01:13:50] about your communicating skills that can, um, save you from a lot of complications in [01:13:55] future. Whereas in Hungary, the communication wasn’t as important. It’s about what you do and how you are as a [01:14:00] dentist and not how nice you are.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the number of people I’ve had here, bosses saying [01:14:05] they hire because of attitude.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The majority, in fact. The more [01:14:10] private, the more they say that. Yeah. And and then you think I was top of my class.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly. [01:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: Or I’ve been on so and so course.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Look. So I’m gonna we’ve got [01:14:20] a new thing. I don’t know whether you’ve you’ve come across it yet. It’s kind of a quickfire kind of thing. So [01:14:25] the best dental lecture you’ve ever been to?

Mahan Mohaghegh: Dental lecture. [01:14:30]

Sara Khandan: Um, for me, it was [01:14:35] recent. It was not like a lecture. It was the course from accent. Um, [01:14:40] and, um, it was about Prosecco. It was about, um, Crown [01:14:45] preparations and everything. We had to go to East Grinstead, the hospital. And [01:14:50] I don’t remember the name of the professor, but he’s one of the professors at Kings College, and [01:14:55] it was one of the best courses I’ve been to. He was so down [01:15:00] to earth, so nice. Someone coming from Kings College, being a professor there. And just [01:15:05] so nice.

Payman Langroudi: Was it called you must remember.

Sara Khandan: I don’t remember.

[TRANSITION]: Was it.

Payman Langroudi: Banerjee? Banerjee? [01:15:10]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe.

Mahan Mohaghegh: No, no, I think, uh, Doctor Miller.

Sara Khandan: I [01:15:15] don’t remember. I’m. I’m so bad at names. Sorry.

[TRANSITION]: That’s okay.

Sara Khandan: But [01:15:20] it was really good.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think [01:15:25] best course out of university and not.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Best lecturer. [01:15:30]

[TRANSITION]: I thought.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Best lecturer. I feel like I have, uh, we had, like, this paediatrics, [01:15:35] uh, teacher in, uh, Hungary. And among [01:15:40] those, as I told you, like the professor?

[TRANSITION]: They’re like, yeah, he.

Mahan Mohaghegh: She was [01:15:45] like the nicest one. And she was like, more like she, she was going through all the steps [01:15:50] and she was like, trying to teach you. You could feel that rather than trying to examine [01:15:55] you, like trying to test you basically, I [01:16:00] think. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: You like that.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah. I think that was my.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about course you’re desperate to [01:16:05] go on.

[TRANSITION]: Uh.

Sara Khandan: The crease or you’re [01:16:10] going.

[TRANSITION]: Right. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s, [01:16:15] I think more like maybe implant [01:16:20] courses. Yeah, but I think I’m going to bed, so. But after that, [01:16:25] I think I would like to because it’s really important with these sort of like if you [01:16:30] learn something new.

[TRANSITION]: You practice, practice it.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Other than that, you’re just gonna. [01:16:35] Yeah, you’re never gonna do it. So yeah, I’ve come across like some of the [01:16:40] courses that you can like go and do just they don’t teach you the implant. They just [01:16:45] give you like the possibility to do implants. Uh, by the supervision [01:16:50] of like, another dentist. So I feel like, yeah, one of those courses [01:16:55] after like a year after I finished my current course and, uh. [01:17:00] Yeah. And do more like, uh, surgical stuff, I would say. So, [01:17:05] like sinus lift, these sort of things. I wanted to actually, [01:17:10] maybe I would at some point go to like, oral surgery, but [01:17:15] that’s. Yeah, something in the future.

Payman Langroudi: As in max.

[TRANSITION]: Facts.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Not as a max [01:17:20] fact. Just just. Yeah, I think so.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Because [01:17:25] Max facts is like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, it’s another world. Another. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about favourite [01:17:30] book? Dental.

Sara Khandan: Um, for me, the mentors that I had [01:17:35] were way more beneficial than the books that I had in uni. Way [01:17:40] more beneficial.

[TRANSITION]: It tend to be. Yeah, yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Because in in the.

Payman Langroudi: Continue to have mentors by the way. [01:17:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Important.

Sara Khandan: Very very important.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you, have you got one now?

Sara Khandan: Not now. [01:17:50]

[TRANSITION]: You need one.

Payman Langroudi: You need one. Yeah. Because, you know, you might next want to go to [01:17:55] full mouth rehab.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You need a mentor. Like you cannot [01:18:00] do that without a mentor. Implants. You cannot do without mentor. I guess Hassan is [01:18:05] going to be your mentor.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Khandan: The name of the book was Schellenberg.

[TRANSITION]: Schellenberg.

Sara Khandan: Yeah. [01:18:10] Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Schellenberg. Good book.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It was a good book.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: It is a good book. Schellenberg. [01:18:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we’ve come to the end of our time. It’s gone quick. Um. [01:18:20] Final questions. Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:18:25] guests, dead or alive. Is this going to be two dinner parties or one?

[TRANSITION]: Probably [01:18:30] two. Go separate. Yeah. Yeah.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Because. Yeah, [01:18:35] I think our. Ah, yeah. Our guess would be different.

[TRANSITION]: So they [01:18:40] don’t get along with each other.

Payman Langroudi: Einstein doesn’t get along.

[TRANSITION]: With the.

Payman Langroudi: Shah [01:18:45] of Iran. But go ahead.

Sara Khandan: My number one would definitely be my granddad. [01:18:50] Um, he passed away a few weeks ago, and, um, I didn’t see [01:18:55] him for six years, and I was actually planning to see him in a month’s time. And it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Just so.

Sara Khandan: Sad [01:19:00] that he passed away three weeks ago. So that would be definitely my number one guest.

[TRANSITION]: Is that.

Payman Langroudi: Your mum’s [01:19:05] dad or.

[TRANSITION]: Your.

Sara Khandan: Yes, my mum’s dad. Um. And we were really, really close, so it’s it’s [01:19:10] such a bad time now. Um, the second guest would be Oprah Winfrey. I [01:19:15] just.

[TRANSITION]: Oprah.

Sara Khandan: Yeah, I love her. Huge role model of mine. Um, [01:19:20] and the third one would be my niece. Um, I never yeah. [01:19:25] I mean, she’s a little bit less than a year. I never get enough of her, [01:19:30] and I would probably just stop playing with her rather than having a proper dinner, but, um. [01:19:35]

[TRANSITION]: She’s.

Payman Langroudi: In.

[TRANSITION]: France.

Sara Khandan: Yes, she’s in France. She’s mixed Iranian and French.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [01:19:40] nice.

Sara Khandan: Yeah. So, um, I’m just so worried that are we going to be able to communicate at some [01:19:45] point. Because I don’t speak French that well. So, um. Definitely, um, [01:19:50] I would have her, as I said.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Nice.

Payman Langroudi: What about you, man?

Mahan Mohaghegh: For [01:19:55] me, I think the first one would be Lionel Messi.

[TRANSITION]: I’m [01:20:00] a huge fan of.

Sara Khandan: That’s why it’s two dinners.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Um, yeah. I’m a die [01:20:05] hard fan of, like, football and everything. I just watch a lot. And she always gets. Oh, [01:20:10] you’re watching football again? And, uh, second [01:20:15] one would be, uh, Cyrus the [01:20:20] Great. Oh, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Nice.

Mahan Mohaghegh: He was, uh, king of Persia, you [01:20:25] know? And, uh. Yeah, the third one would be Rowan [01:20:30] Atkinson. Rowan. Atkinson. Mr. [01:20:35] bean. I think it was. It would be like a really fun, interesting. [01:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Cyrus the great Mr. Bean. Do you want Mr. Bean or do you want Rowan [01:20:45] Atkinson?

Mahan Mohaghegh: They’re all together.

[TRANSITION]: I thought it’s going to be like a separate dinner party.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Oh, okay. But still. [01:20:50] Yeah, it would be the case.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Deathbed. It’s a [01:20:55] deathbed question. Three pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Sara Khandan: Three [01:21:00] pieces of advice. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Bear in mind it could be. It could be. Hey, I [01:21:05] was top of my class. You should be top of your class, too. That’s one way of doing. That’s one way.

[TRANSITION]: Of doing it. That’s one way of doing [01:21:10] it.

Payman Langroudi: But another way of doing it is say, I wasn’t top of my class. You should.

[TRANSITION]: Be.

Payman Langroudi: You know. So [01:21:15] what would you say?

Sara Khandan: I would say be kind. [01:21:20] Life is hard enough. Don’t make it harder for each other. Definitely be kind. Um. [01:21:25] Try your best. Doesn’t matter if you’re not the [01:21:30] best. As long as you’ve tried your best, that’s enough. You shouldn’t always do things perfectly, [01:21:35] um, in your life. Um, at some point, we [01:21:40] are gonna die. So you’re not going to get out of this life alive. Just. Just enjoy it as much as you can.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:21:45] What about one of the ones that you weren’t? Is enjoy life. One of them. Are [01:21:50] you not enjoying life enough?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Sara Khandan: No.

[TRANSITION]: I [01:21:55] mean, um.

Sara Khandan: I am in my own way. So sometimes you’re enjoying. [01:22:00]

Payman Langroudi: But what is it that that you would advise your kids to do that you didn’t do? [01:22:05]

Sara Khandan: Um. You don’t have to be perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a perfectionist?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:22:10]

Sara Khandan: And I think it has made life way harder for me. And now that I’m understanding [01:22:15] the whole concept of that, you don’t need to be perfect for doing [01:22:20] things. Like, you can just just do it. And it doesn’t have to be perfect and it still works. [01:22:25] Um, that would be definitely my number one thing that I would tell them and be kind because [01:22:30] I literally feel that, um, as long as you’re kind to people, you are having a good [01:22:35] life.

Payman Langroudi: The perfection thing holds you back big time.

[TRANSITION]: It does. Big time.

Payman Langroudi: You know, if you want to [01:22:40] open this practice. Yeah. A lot, a lot of it is not going to be perfect to start with. [01:22:45] A lot of it. And in fact, you know, I’ve had people here, I had the [01:22:50] CEO of Bupa write 400 practices they’re running or I had I mean, [01:22:55] he’s more of a corporate guy. I had Anushka, she’s got 43 practices, right? Um, [01:23:00] but I’ve had other people, in fact, my hero in dentistry. One [01:23:05] practice. Yeah. Yeah. And making it better and better and incrementally [01:23:10] improving it. And over a period of 40 years. Yeah. You cannot. [01:23:15] There is no perfect.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. There is no perfect. How about you?

Payman Langroudi: What do you think?

[TRANSITION]: Uh. [01:23:20]

Mahan Mohaghegh: I think I would say the first thing is don’t [01:23:25] give up and, uh, The try to basically [01:23:30] don’t give up. That’s the main thing. And uh, also try [01:23:35] to be, uh, you can’t be stress free, but yeah, don’t [01:23:40] stress out about everything. Uh, don’t give up and don’t regret because [01:23:45] you’re gonna fail. Uh, whatever you do, you’re gonna fail at some [01:23:50] point. And that happens for everyone. And, uh, third thing I would say [01:23:55] that try to learn as many languages as you can while you’re growing up. That’s [01:24:00] going to help you a lot. Like, even even like, you never know. So it’s always [01:24:05] good to.

Payman Langroudi: Language is a funny thing. Yeah. Because I don’t think going forward is going to be an issue, man. [01:24:10] Like going forward there’s going to be something in your ear and but but but learning [01:24:15] a language is a bit like learning a musical instrument or something like it makes connections in your brain. [01:24:20]

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, exactly.

[TRANSITION]: It’s true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My kids go to French school and they’ve learned everything in [01:24:25] French and they’ve got a Lebanese mother and an Iranian dad and they live in. In London. [01:24:30] Right. So there’s a lot of languages.

[TRANSITION]: Mixed.

Payman Langroudi: In. And I always used to think, you know, is it really going to help? My [01:24:35] son wants to be an aerospace engineer, right. Is it going to help especially with AI and all that?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:24:40]

Mahan Mohaghegh: That’s true again.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but we all know we’ve got connections in our head. Right. [01:24:45] From learning different languages that like overall make you a better person.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:24:50] That’s true.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Well, sorry. Although it’s like with the AI and everything, it’s [01:24:55] gonna change quite a lot. But still, I don’t think you [01:25:00] can, like, express yourself with, like, these sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Iranian [01:25:05] jokes.

[TRANSITION]: Right? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They don’t translate because honestly.

Sara Khandan: With [01:25:10] languages, you feel like a different person when you’re [01:25:15] speaking that specific language. And it’s.

[TRANSITION]: So interesting.

Payman Langroudi: What you said about Hungary, that it changed the [01:25:20] people as soon as you started.

[TRANSITION]: Speaking.

Payman Langroudi: Their language.

[TRANSITION]: Right.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Yeah, exactly.

[TRANSITION]: Actually, I.

Payman Langroudi: Came across [01:25:25] an English guy who speak perfect Farsi.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, nice.

Payman Langroudi: And I couldn’t believe it. You know, [01:25:30] I was like, wow.

[TRANSITION]: It’s unbelievable. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s been amazing to have you. I really enjoyed it.

[TRANSITION]: Thanks [01:25:35] for having us. Thanks for.

Mahan Mohaghegh: Having. It was an amazing. Yeah. Thank you for having us.

[VOICE]: This [01:25:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you [01:25:45] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:25:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:25:55]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to [01:26:00] the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and [01:26:05] listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value [01:26:10] out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:26:15] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, [01:26:20] so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the dates. [00:00:25] Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Kash Qureshi onto the podcast. The third [00:00:55] technician that we’ve had on this pod. Um, I think, you know, we don’t [00:01:00] give enough credit to our technician colleagues. And we all know those of us who’ve practised for a few years. [00:01:05] The difference a technician can make to your life in terms of. [00:01:10] I’ve worked with some technicians that make me look amazing and the opposite [00:01:15] as well. I’ve had situations I’ve had and you really realise it when [00:01:20] you change practice as an associate. I remember having a technician I adored, [00:01:25] someone who taught me so much. Yeah. Changing practice. And then in the new practice, they’re saying [00:01:30] you have to use this lab. And where I’d never had a situation where the crown [00:01:35] wouldn’t even fit. Yeah. Suddenly the first three crowns weren’t fitting, and [00:01:40] I suddenly realised, oh, my God, how good was my technician before? So it’s a massive pleasure to have you. Thanks for [00:01:45] coming all the way.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, thanks for having me as well. Um, you know, I really appreciate your time. And [00:01:50] thank you for letting me go on this podcast.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. So, cash, you own Bremer Dent? [00:01:55]

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. In London.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a clinical dental technician as well.

Kash Qureshi: That’s right. I run the [00:02:00] denture clinic as well.

Payman Langroudi: There’s an E in there.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. There is. It’s [00:02:05] Susie. Susie dent.

Payman Langroudi: Is that because there was another Swiss dent and you had to add an E to differentiate?

Kash Qureshi: You [00:02:10] own the trademark to it now? Um. Yeah. Susie. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What does it mean?

Kash Qureshi: It was a system [00:02:15] that was developed in the 1950s from the Swiss Bank Corporation [00:02:20] in America. They’d done something with Angela. Uh, Angela done something [00:02:25] with a group of dentists and technicians. It was a way of dentists to communicate with their [00:02:30] technicians when it comes to dentures, because we know how difficult dentures are between the two. And [00:02:35] it was a system that was put in place. So everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet. And it worked for many, many [00:02:40] years. And then, um, I think the guy passed away who who ran it and [00:02:45] then it just went sort of downhill from there. Um, but I, I [00:02:50] trained on that system, and that helped me pass my clinical course as well, because it [00:02:55] was a Training from a dentist point of view as well as a technician. I sort of had both [00:03:00] aspects, the clinical and technical, and it worked quite well. One question I do want to bring [00:03:05] up. Yeah, you said that I’m the third technician who was the other two before me.

Payman Langroudi: Had Michael [00:03:10] Joseph.

Kash Qureshi: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Right.

Kash Qureshi: Right right right. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And Simon Caxton. Is [00:03:15] it Simon Caxton. Yeah. That’s [00:03:20] a bit embarrassing. Um, but [00:03:25] both of them told me that dental [00:03:30] technology and being a dental technician isn’t something that the public know anything [00:03:35] about. That’s right. Because you guys are kind of in the behind the scenes. Yeah. And so, [00:03:40] you know, it’s not something that people even consider going into because they don’t even know it exists. [00:03:45] Yeah. So what was your thinking like how did you trip over becoming a dental [00:03:50] technician? Were you thinking of doing other things? What how did it happen for you?

Kash Qureshi: I think, um, [00:03:55] we’ve got to sort of go back to growing up in East London. That’s where I’m originally from, from Walthamstow. [00:04:00] And it was a very rough environment growing [00:04:05] up in Walthamstow. It’s not you know, it wasn’t great as it is now. It’s very, very nice to go [00:04:10] now. It is, isn’t it, when you go down there. But um. Yeah. So how [00:04:15] can I say it’s quite a long story short. Uh, by the time [00:04:20] I was, like, 15, um, I’d been into various situations [00:04:25] where knives were involved. Um, the youngest time when I had a knife up against my [00:04:30] throat, I was like eight. The second time was 12. Um, I got robbed [00:04:35] at that time. I just come back from Pakistan because I’m Pakistani and I was wearing all my gold [00:04:40] stuff. Like, are.

Payman Langroudi: You born here?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I was born here in Watford.

Payman Langroudi: And your parents? [00:04:45] When?

Kash Qureshi: Pakistan.

Payman Langroudi: When did they come over? Like, how old were they?

Kash Qureshi: I think they were young, like two [00:04:50] or something like that. And I remember I was at the chicken shop that was 12 years old and, [00:04:55] um, yeah, they took everything from me. So I went to my uncle’s who was literally [00:05:00] up the road, and I thought, oh, my uncle’s going to get all my stuff back. And, um, [00:05:05] no, he just drove me back home. So I just remembered to myself, you know what I thought from [00:05:10] age of 12? I thought, I’m going to have to look out for number one because I’ve got. [00:05:15] No, I didn’t have a big brother or anything like that. So I thought, you know, I’m going to have to look out for myself. So [00:05:20] 15 comes around. Now, the reason why I’m saying this because it was linked to my trajectory [00:05:25] of change, of life. And, uh, 15, I got into a massive altercation. Um, [00:05:30] you end up in them. I don’t go out of my way to go to these things, but they just happen. [00:05:35] And, uh, a group of guys surrounding me, um, I always [00:05:40] remember my mum in my ear saying that if you got any for your life is worth more than [00:05:45] your valuables or whatnot. And at the time, I remember this group of guys around [00:05:50] me and I thought, nah, f that.

Kash Qureshi: When I was 12 years old, I thought, no, that was it. I am not [00:05:55] letting this happen. So in the end, I ended up having, um, a bit of a with [00:06:00] a knife. It just all sort of slashed on the arm. And I went home and, uh, I [00:06:05] sort of patched myself up, and I thought, what do I do here? Do I? Because I didn’t [00:06:10] know I was going through mixed emotions. I didn’t really know what to do. So I thought the only thing I could think of to [00:06:15] do was just me being stupid was, you know what? I’m going to get some bits and I’m going to go straight back to the place [00:06:20] and see what happens. I went straight back there and my heart was pounding, like, literally, you could feel. [00:06:25] You can like my heart was pounding. But I thought, no, I’m just going to go back there. Dah dah dah. So [00:06:30] yeah, that ended up happening. So you could see what sort of trajectory I was going down. [00:06:35] And it was a stage where my mum said to me, right, you need to get [00:06:40] a job or you need to go to college because I didn’t, I didn’t apply.

Payman Langroudi: You went back. What happened when you went back? [00:06:45]

Kash Qureshi: Oh, they didn’t say anything. They were more scared about why I come back to the same place. I’m sorry. I didn’t think I [00:06:50] meant to say anything because I patched myself up. I look like Rambo because I just put a bandaid on there. I put Sudocrem [00:06:55] with Vaseline, I put Vaseline and I put a plaster on it, and obviously [00:07:00] it’s just like slipping around. So then I just put a bandage on and I just went straight back to the. The location was [00:07:05] Ringwood Road. It was literally up the road from the lab where I went to. So when [00:07:10] I was looking for jobs, um, it was a newspaper, The Guardian at [00:07:15] the time, and there was an advert in there to for a plastering worker. I didn’t know what it was [00:07:20] about, so I thought, okay, I’m still going to apply because it’s in Walthamstow, it’s up the road from where I am. And [00:07:25] I thought, well, it’s better than getting involved in that life because I don’t want to be about that [00:07:30] life. It’s it’s a dangerous life. You don’t live that long living that life.

Kash Qureshi: So then [00:07:35] I applied. I sent a letter. When you used to do those things, I attended an interview. [00:07:40] And I just remember my boss, John Gerard, who owned the lab at the time. [00:07:45] He had one of the he had a dry trimmer And he had this model and he was like, [00:07:50] can you do this shape from this? So okay, I’ll give it a try. So I’ve done [00:07:55] it and it was quick at doing it. And he went, oh that’s really good. How do you know how to do that? And I went, oh, [00:08:00] in D.T. we do the stuff like that, we would work, but they’ve got like a red thing at the bottom that you kick in case [00:08:05] your tyre gets caught in it and you go into it. And he laughed. And then from there, um, I’ve just [00:08:10] been doing an apprenticeship since then, but the reason why I mention that is because that put [00:08:15] me on a different trajectory in life in general. Now I own the laboratory. I was once [00:08:20] an apprentice. Same lab? Yeah, that same lab.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. That’s.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. That’s permanent.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Kash Qureshi: So [00:08:25] if it and literally that event of, um, the, the knife incident literally [00:08:30] only happened about two months before I was started at that place. So it was very [00:08:35] close to one another and it was just like, okay, if if I didn’t do that, [00:08:40] I mean, yeah, I could have ended up anywhere. It could have been worse. I couldn’t [00:08:45] not be here today in a podcast interview, but I’m glad I used my [00:08:50] senses and I stuck to it and done the apprenticeship.

Payman Langroudi: But that life. I mean, did you? What [00:08:55] was it? What was it that you were involved in?

Kash Qureshi: I wasn’t involved with the street [00:09:00] dudes. There was a lot of street dudes out there then. There still is to this day. Some of the kids nowadays, they’re [00:09:05] crazy. They’re so crazy. Some of these.

Payman Langroudi: Kids.

Kash Qureshi: Knife.

Payman Langroudi: Crime thing is mad.

Kash Qureshi: The knife crime, [00:09:10] gun crime, the drug. It’s just there used to be a thing about drugs outside [00:09:15] the laboratory where, um. They used to stash drugs inside of the wheel arch of my car. Seriously? [00:09:20] And the police? Um, they would always knock on the door and say, um, can we [00:09:25] just search your car underneath? Because there used to be an alleyway there, and they used to always do it. [00:09:30] And it’s very easy to get into that lifestyle. You don’t need to actually be in it. You can be just [00:09:35] associated. I mean, one of my friends were into that sort of thing. That’s [00:09:40] good to good on them. I don’t know what they’re doing now. We were young at the time. I mean, the one the one [00:09:45] thing I do remember is I was in this house once with my friends and [00:09:50] what they call now, they call it a I think they call it like a trap house. That’s what they call it now. I didn’t know what it was back [00:09:55] then. No, we didn’t have a name for it. But I remember the floors. There wasn’t like nice floorboards. It was like that wooden floor, [00:10:00] you know, where. There’s nothing on there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: And all I remember just sitting there thinking. If the police [00:10:05] come through right now, what am I going to tell my mom? That was the only thing that was going through [00:10:10] my mind. I was thinking, oh, man, I’m going to be an accessory to whatever’s going on here, you know? So I ducked [00:10:15] out of there so quick because I thought, I don’t want to be here. I don’t want I don’t want this lifestyle. And I’m glad [00:10:20] I don’t didn’t go through with it. But you don’t need to be involved in it. You see, you just get drawn [00:10:25] into it. If your friends are there, you’re not going to go, oh, you know what? Uh, it’s more peer pressure, [00:10:30] I think.

Payman Langroudi: And that and that inflection point of that incident that made you decide [00:10:35] to follow that career when you finally got there, were you like, super [00:10:40] disciplined and like, did you feel like it was an opportunity that. [00:10:45] Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Because I just thought it was an opportunity. My grades wasn’t 100%. [00:10:50] Um, so I wasn’t the smartest of people out there. Um, I was very good with my [00:10:55] hands. Um, very good at art, design, technology and all of them sort of things. So I had good coordination [00:11:00] skills, and it just clicked. And I thought, you know what? This is going to be [00:11:05] the thing to do. And I ended up just just going at it full speed and, um, [00:11:10] yeah, I’m glad I did, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: So from that point of like in the plaster room [00:11:15] to becoming a fully fledged technician, how many years, how many courses? [00:11:20] What are we talking.

Kash Qureshi: We there was a BTec course at the time. Um, [00:11:25] so you’d done that for about a year, I think. And then you went on to a foundation degree. And then [00:11:30] from there I’d done the external courses to do a CBT course. So [00:11:35] I think the first part of it was a four year. Um, so you do.

Payman Langroudi: Part [00:11:40] time.

Kash Qureshi: Part time. So one day released to college, four days in the lab. I think that’s the best way of [00:11:45] doing it, to be honest with.

Payman Langroudi: You, for it somehow.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, because you learn so much more in a lab than you do in a [00:11:50] in an ideal environment with ideal cases and stuff like that. You learn life experience. [00:11:55] Yeah. And I think they’ve changed things now. The new apprenticeships now seem to be more streamlined, [00:12:00] like, um, there’s a new place that’s just opened up in called Southbank [00:12:05] Colleges. Um, they’re running a technicians course. They’ve got a full time one and the part time one. [00:12:10] I’m a big favour of the part time one because it’s aimed for school leavers exactly like myself. [00:12:15] You know, the you know, you don’t want to do the academia side of things, but you’re good at your [00:12:20] hands and you’ve got value. You can bring value. And that’s what I think that is going [00:12:25] to be the more successful courses with the younger generation.

Payman Langroudi: And how long is it before you start kind [00:12:30] of subspecializing like that first course. Does that, does everyone do that first [00:12:35] course.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, because you need to get your feet wet. You need to know what you’re going to be doing. That. [00:12:40] And a lot of these, when you go into the course, you they train you on everything. But the main [00:12:45] thing that I don’t know why it was silly. They used to train you on orthodontics more than anything else. We used to do like 13 [00:12:50] orthodontic appliances I don’t even remember the name of. I don’t even touch the wire since I don’t even want [00:12:55] to touch removable appliance. Yeah, the orthodontic stuff. I leave it to the people that want to [00:13:00] do it. I just find it very tedious to bend wires. I still do, but they teach you sections [00:13:05] of each thing. It’s probably gone different now because of the digital aspect, which I think it should be [00:13:10] a core curriculum, because that’s going to outweigh anything we were doing, like the lost wax process. [00:13:15] So I think that that’s definitely going to be the way forward. And then once you do [00:13:20] your bits and pieces, I found that I started off in Crown and Bridge. I first started [00:13:25] off in the plaster room. Uh, apparently I showed good street smarts. There’s a reason for [00:13:30] that. Yeah. So I was very good at them sort of things and making decisions quick and thinking [00:13:35] with common sense. So I was very good at them sort of things. And then I started running that whole department down there. [00:13:40]

Payman Langroudi: And bridge department.

Kash Qureshi: The whole class.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, the whole classroom.

Kash Qureshi: Taking training [00:13:45] new people, moving people here, they’re just running. I was like 17 at the time, so I was well in [00:13:50] my element. Then I got moved upstairs into the sort of Canning Bridge. I didn’t like it too much. [00:13:55] It wasn’t my thing. Uh, I was more quick paced, moving on things. And [00:14:00] then, um, I just approached my boss at the time and said, look, I’d rather do prosthetics, [00:14:05] try me out on prosthetics because there was a stage where the colleges, everyone would [00:14:10] tell you, if you want to be a technician, you want to be a crown and bridge technician. They used to always tell you [00:14:15] that even if you didn’t want to do it, they’ll go, you know what? You should be a ceramist. And boy, were they wrong. [00:14:20] That’s been the first specialised field that’s literally been outsourced [00:14:25] to CAD Cam, because there was a stage where they thought CAD cam will never it [00:14:30] won’t. I don’t get me wrong, it won’t replace technicians. It will make you more [00:14:35] productive, but it comes at a cost. You’re not going to sit there and [00:14:40] pay 70 K to a ceramist when you can get a machine to mill it out, and you can get someone [00:14:45] to stain and glaze it. It doesn’t make business sense. You’ve got to make it work somehow. And [00:14:50] at the moment, digital dentures is becoming a thing. Um, I’ve got a good team of technicians [00:14:55] now. Um, they are worried about digital dentures taking over. I [00:15:00] said, well, look, you’ve got nothing to be worried about. You’ve just got to apply your skills differently. You’ve got to apply what [00:15:05] you’re learning at the bench. You still got to know how to do setting up of teeth, because when you’re on the computer, [00:15:10] you’re going to need to know how to position teeth and so forth. So it’s just a case of transferring, [00:15:15] and I suppose it’s the employer that pushes the people in the direction that [00:15:20] you can foresee them going as well, because sometimes people just need that little [00:15:25] nudge in the right direction. Lead them up that path.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s not only dental technicians, [00:15:30] right? It’s every single field now is going to change with [00:15:35] AI and all that. And I saw a thing. It was, you know, autonomous cars in [00:15:40] some city in Phoenix. They’ve got taxis. No driver, just the car.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I see that.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:15:45] car just drives around by itself. Um, but in that situation, there’s one driver [00:15:50] driving 30 cars because the car’s basically doing its own thing until [00:15:55] it hits the situation where it doesn’t know what to do. And then it calls up the driver, and then the driver takes over. And [00:16:00] I think that’s going to be the way that a lot of different industries end up. It could be [00:16:05] one technician doing ten technicians job that, you know, today’s technicians [00:16:10] jobs. It could even be one dentist doing ten dentist jobs. You know, we think [00:16:15] we think that, you know, in those professions where it’s face to face, that’s the last one that’s going to go. [00:16:20] But, um, you know, I if I’m, if I’m buying something off Amazon, [00:16:25] I don’t want to talk to a human. You know, I don’t I.

Kash Qureshi: Don’t.

Payman Langroudi: I prefer. [00:16:30]

Kash Qureshi: To talk to you when, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, I want to go on Amazon. Hit the thing.

Kash Qureshi: Have you have you rang up someone like a [00:16:35] bank or someone and they got the AI versions on there? Yeah, it is weird.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it won’t be for long.

Kash Qureshi: It’s [00:16:40] strange. And then they do the breathing thing as well. It makes it even worse because it’s like you’re trying [00:16:45] to be human and you can tell you’re not human.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So then you became [00:16:50] a clinical dental technician and set up a practice.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, well, a denture clinic. [00:16:55] Just in case CQC are watching. It’s a denture clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Because [00:17:00] dentures are a funny thing. I worked with a guy on Harley Street who was a denture specialist, [00:17:05] if you like. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the emotions, the the [00:17:10] sort of psychological aspect to making a great just stick to forefoot [00:17:15] for now to making a great full fall. We weren’t taught that in dental [00:17:20] school. You know, in dental school, we were taught the basics of how to make the thing. Yeah, we certainly [00:17:25] weren’t taught positioning of teeth. You know, the stuff that you guys [00:17:30] are good at. But what this guy used to do, and it used to. I remember seeing the emotion on [00:17:35] the patients faces was he’d asked for photos from their youth, and [00:17:40] they’d bring in pictures of themselves when they were 20 or 30, when they had teeth. Yeah. And then he’d [00:17:45] recreate the way that their teeth used to look when in their 20s. And [00:17:50] when he’d put them in, suddenly there’d be floods of tears and and and and so forth. And [00:17:55] it’s both the positive side of that sort of emotional connection. And as we know, [00:18:00] the negative aspects of it, there are some people who I’m sure come to you with a bag [00:18:05] of dentures, having seen 30 dentists and think you’re going to answer all their problems and, [00:18:10] and, you know, they’ve given a name to their pain and, and no, no set of dentures is going [00:18:15] to fix that. Talk talk me around the clinical aspects that you, you are [00:18:20] now super specialised in.

Kash Qureshi: I think the biggest thing I can say [00:18:25] is patient expectations and communication with patients. Because when [00:18:30] I get patients come into my clinic, they’ve gone done the rounds through all of [00:18:35] the dentists out there. So they’ve come to you and they know that they’ve got a problem. And [00:18:40] if it’s come to a CDC, you know that they’ve got low ridges. [00:18:45] Their old denture is very worn out. They’re dead. So it’s a long [00:18:50] winded process. That’s why the digital stuff can kick in. In actually does help. [00:18:55] Um, I’m training a lot of dentists on how to do digital dentures. Um, [00:19:00] and we’ve been getting some good successful results with it. But with the patients [00:19:05] as such, you just have to manage the expectations from the outset. Tell [00:19:10] them straight off the cuff that you’ve got a very. I mean, you do all of this in the treatment planning [00:19:15] stages and the examinations. And I will tell a patient straight away that [00:19:20] you’re probably going to need fixodent if needed. Um, if fixodent are watching wherever [00:19:25] the camera is, hit me up. I still want to do that advert with you guys. I’ve been [00:19:30] messaging them, so they messaged back. So I don’t know who’s running your social media, but you need to sort it out. Serious. [00:19:35] But, um, I’ve always recommend fixing them. Um, even if the dentures they’ve got healthy Ridge. I [00:19:40] would always recommend it.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. Because you need to lower that expectation from the outset because [00:19:45] they’re coming to you thinking they’re gonna you’re gonna because they know that you special not special. You’re not allowed to [00:19:50] say special. Yeah. Gdc because they know you’re an expert in dentures. They [00:19:55] will think that you’re going to solve all their issues. I’ve had patients, um, because I look quite [00:20:00] young at the time. Um, when I first started, I was like, when I qualified, I was 23 years old. As I said, [00:20:05] I was the youngest in the country, and I must have looked very young to patients because they would, you know, you’re [00:20:10] getting old elderly patients in the 60s, 70s. So they’re seeing someone young. They’re like, well, what do [00:20:15] you know? And I said, well, look, I’m dealing with about 800 to 900 denture cases a week at the lab. Oh, [00:20:20] no. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, in the lab.

Kash Qureshi: In the lab? Yeah. Like just in the denture department. I’m overseeing [00:20:25] 800 to 900 cases Day in, day out. Every week without fail. [00:20:30] It’s me. I can tell you now if it’s going to work or not. So they appreciate [00:20:35] that because experience takes over. How many years you’ve done it? [00:20:40] And I found with a lot of technicians that I’m getting coming through now, I don’t really look at [00:20:45] how many years they’ve been doing it. I’ve been looking more at what they actually their experience and what they [00:20:50] do. I mean, there’s no point of if someone if someone turns around to me and requests a pay [00:20:55] rise based on the long how long they’ve been at the place. Uh, it’s about time [00:21:00] that I’ll be thinking to myself. I need to get them the hell out of here. If you’ve had to come to me and you’re [00:21:05] telling me that the only thing you can think of is because I’ve been here for so long now. I’ve got no space for [00:21:10] furniture. I’ve. You know, we’ve got no space. You need to be bringing some sort of value [00:21:15] to the bottom line. And that’s where experience comes in. And if there are any technicians [00:21:20] out there, do not approach your employer with that saying that, oh, I’ve been doing this for X [00:21:25] amount of years. Approach them differently. Have you got clients like I’ve spoken [00:21:30] to some technicians that have their own clients. You go to an employer or a new employer and say, look, I’ve got [00:21:35] 5 or 6 dentists on my team. You know, they’re people.

Payman Langroudi: Who trust me.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. I [00:21:40] guarantee you that that employer will take you on straight away. But if you go there and say, yeah, I’ve been doing this for [00:21:45] 20 years, they’d be like, well, what have you been doing for 20 years? You know, have you been just sweeping the corner? You know, [00:21:50] you’ve been just been doing bites because you get found out. It’s where I [00:21:55] did remember reading a guy called Jim Glidewell. He owns a big laboratory in America. [00:22:00] 5000 laboratories. Yeah. Huge guy, very successful. Um, Stephanie [00:22:05] Goddard now is the CEO of it, very successful laboratory. And he said [00:22:10] that most technicians will get called out on their cases [00:22:15] every case they do. So that’s why you’ve always got to do the best case, because you send a job to [00:22:20] a dentist and it’s a piece of chalk, as he said. He’s that dentist is going to turn around to you and say [00:22:25] that lab work’s not good. So you’re always going to get constant feedback. Whereas as a dentist, [00:22:30] you very rarely get feedback. There’s no one there to govern how your clinical work is. [00:22:35] Whereas now I’m finding a lot of dentists are now asking us, give us [00:22:40] feedback. And I do I give them feedback. If I think an impression is good, I’ll ring them up and go, yeah, you know [00:22:45] that impression you sent was, you know, it was hot, you know. And if it’s rubbish, I would be very [00:22:50] careful in my work and say, you know. Yeah, I think it’s the impression is distorted. It [00:22:55] just distorted itself somehow. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I want to go into [00:23:00] a couple of things there. Number one, this thing you’re saying about feedback, [00:23:05] how how important is it to you? How nice is it when a dentist [00:23:10] contacts you and says, that was really nice lab work. Like, I’d imagine that that [00:23:15] that’s almost like when a patient says thank you to dentist. It’s like. And they [00:23:20] really mean it. It’s actually the bit of the job that makes the whole thing worthwhile. And [00:23:25] often dentists don’t feed back that good news to their [00:23:30] technicians. They feed back bad news, but good news. Tell [00:23:35] me about that. Is that is that something that changes your day, like when you get a thank you [00:23:40] from a dentist?

Kash Qureshi: It does. It does change every. I think it changes everyone’s morale. It’s more for the team. [00:23:45] Um, you know, we got about 18 people at the lab. So to get feedback because I, [00:23:50] I don’t I don’t see half my team half the time because, you know, it’s like running a business. You’re [00:23:55] everywhere. You’re everywhere but nowhere sort of thing half the time. So it’s good to get feedback. [00:24:00] You can put it in the group saying, this dentist just sent this. Well done. So and so. It’s good [00:24:05] to. But then I also think at the same time, if something has gone wrong feedback, [00:24:10] you need to be able to give.

Payman Langroudi: That feedback.

Kash Qureshi: Because that’s how we learn. And it’s [00:24:15] like I’m always in the middle between a dentist [00:24:20] and then an annoyed staff member, because when you got that sort of situation going, you [00:24:25] need to find a medium ground in between. So I always say to the guys, focus on the [00:24:30] solution, not the problem. Because when you focus on the problem, you’re still going to be fighting. The technician will [00:24:35] say, oh, it’s bad impressions. The dentist will say it’s down to the lab and how they’re making it. [00:24:40] Okay, that’s the problem you’re focusing on. Let’s focus on the solution. The solution would be [00:24:45] okay. It’s going to come at a cost to us. Just making you aware to the dentist. It’s going to [00:24:50] come at a cost. But if you can get this right and then the next few cases I can make back, I [00:24:55] will make it back on that. It’s a hustler’s mentality that I will make it back on the next one. [00:25:00] So that is what I.

Payman Langroudi: Call nightmare, insomuch as I don’t know [00:25:05] for someone else what it would be like. But if I got two pieces of lab lab work in [00:25:10] a row back that for whatever reason, I’m blaming the lab. I’m now looking for a new [00:25:15] lab, isn’t it? And you could. You could have given me 100 great bits of lab work, [00:25:20] but if I get two in a row, I’ll worry as a dentist. And that’s [00:25:25] hard, man. That’s hard. You’re right. Dentists don’t have so much critique of the work they [00:25:30] do as as you guys have. The other thing I’m interested in is what was the transition [00:25:35] like from employee to boss? Like, did you find that easy or did you find that hard? [00:25:40]

Kash Qureshi: Uh, well.

Payman Langroudi: It seems like you you look comfortable in the boss’s position, [00:25:45] but it’s not an easy transition. I mean, yeah, lots of associates who become principals and [00:25:50] have real issues with that. What kind of things did you have to sort of go through?

Kash Qureshi: Well, I think that [00:25:55] the answer, the first one about the, um, the dentist with, um, you know, after two jobs [00:26:00] I’ve had, I’ve had dentists stop sending me work because they’re trying the [00:26:05] wax trying wasn’t right. And it could be something as simple as just moving [00:26:10] a lateral. And I’ve had people stop sending work because of it and all that does. There’s two [00:26:15] ways of looking at it. You can look at the way that that dentist is being pedantic. Or you can look at it the way that that [00:26:20] Dennis is being pedantic for a reason. Let’s up our game. And I like the second version, the latter [00:26:25] of it. And I would always say to people, come on, we need to up our game. Let’s [00:26:30] work to the standard that I’ve got one. Um, I don’t want to say names or anything like that, but one dentist, he sends me [00:26:35] photos of his impressions. He said to me, oh, can you extend the trace and make it like this? He constantly [00:26:40] sends me feedback on work and stuff and his work is coming out hot. I keep using [00:26:45] the word hot because I like to use the other word, but I’m just being PC about it and it’s coming out really good. [00:26:50] So I would suggest that any dentist out there, if you have an issue, [00:26:55] when I get dentists that ring up and dental practices. Now, this is something that not a lot of lab [00:27:00] owners do, but they should.

Kash Qureshi: A lot of people ring up and go, you know what? Um, [00:27:05] we’re looking for a new lab. Um, the first question to ask is what happened to the last one? [00:27:10] For some reason, my dentists don’t want to tell you what the name is of the labs. I’m not really interested, to be honest with [00:27:15] you. They don’t want to mention the names of the labs. I don’t have no idea why. Uh, maybe there’s [00:27:20] something out there that they don’t want to disclose who they’re using. I don’t really know, but my main thing is, hey, can [00:27:25] you resolve the issues with the lab you’re using? If it’s if it’s gone past that point where you can’t [00:27:30] resolve it and you can’t even have a conversation, most dentists don’t even know what the technician [00:27:35] looks like. They don’t know what the lab owner looks like. I remember when I used to rock up at practices and they used to go, [00:27:40] it’s very nice to actually see the lab owner. And I’m thinking, well, don’t everybody do this. You [00:27:45] know what I mean? I feel like everybody comes and sees people and stuff. It’s human nature, but a lot, [00:27:50] a lot of them do that. Whereas I’ve always liked to communicate with dentists, um, I like [00:27:55] to approach them. I like to go with them on cases because I’m a CDC now. I know what these guys go through [00:28:00] in the clinical aspect. So yeah, there is that. And what was this.

Payman Langroudi: As a boss?

Kash Qureshi: Oh, [00:28:05] as a boss? Yeah. I mean, I was a manager first, so I was running a department, [00:28:10] um, the prosthetics department because I ended up taking over that. So I got an understanding.

Payman Langroudi: Understanding [00:28:15] of people management.

Kash Qureshi: That’s the the main key thing. If anybody asks me what [00:28:20] is the main key skill of owning a business and running a business is [00:28:25] leadership. Leadership has a lot of subcategories. But you just got to be a good leader. You’ve [00:28:30] got to know how to communicate to people. You’ve got to know how to talk to people. The [00:28:35] tone of your voice, the message you want to convey. Um, and that [00:28:40] seems to help quite good when even just in general, just talking to random general [00:28:45] people like randos on the street, you know, you’ve just got to be able to just talk, um, which [00:28:50] is worrying because I see the younger generation having an issue with communication and [00:28:55] talking. Um, they’re much more comfortable with talking via texts and emails [00:29:00] and so forth. Yeah. So I think they’ll snap out of it. I hope so, they’ll [00:29:05] snap out of it. But, um, I’d say that that is probably the main key things is, [00:29:10] um, transitioning from an employee to a boss was difficult because I was young. Um, my [00:29:15] my trajectory was from 16. Apprentice qualified [00:29:20] at, like, eight and 19. Qualified at 19. Um, become a department [00:29:25] manager at prosthetics at 2021. And then done [00:29:30] the course. Qualified as a CBT 23 um, 25. I opened [00:29:35] up a clinic. 26 I’d done an MBA on the laboratory. So you’ve got to think from 16 [00:29:40] to 26. In ten years, I had a lot of exposure to how [00:29:45] can I say to, you know, even younger than that, I’ve had a lot of exposure to sort of street [00:29:50] life, um, finance, um, money people. [00:29:55] Hr and I gathered a lot of experience up until the point [00:30:00] of 26 where I was. I’m the owner now sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Was it for sale?

Kash Qureshi: No, [00:30:05] it was because he was retiring the the old boss, John Gerrard, and, um, he [00:30:10] was looking to retire. He obviously saw me pushing through on the clinic and seeing that, [00:30:15] you know, I was at 16 year old and I’ve just shot past everyone, even people that have been there for [00:30:20] 1020. I’ve just shot past everyone. So he obviously saw something there thinking, right, okay, well this [00:30:25] is my lifestyle, retirement, you know, which, you know, it was when [00:30:30] I took over, I believe there was, um, seven people and three of them [00:30:35] left straight away when I took over. Really? Yeah. Dropped me right in it. Um, two of them done [00:30:40] it, so one of them done it good way. He told me that he was going to do it. One [00:30:45] of them done it quite vindictively. Uh, another one had it in the pipelines for a long time [00:30:50] that he was going to do it, but they all just seemed to do it at the same time. Well, the two people [00:30:55] that done it and open up in competition with me is going around to clients and stuff like that. It [00:31:00] was sad to hear because I don’t really like hearing about labs closing down, but they [00:31:05] had to close it down. I assumed that whatever they were doing to me, they’d done to each other [00:31:10] because a cheater doesn’t change his spots at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Also, [00:31:15] you know, new businesses go bust all the time. Yeah, you’ve got to bear that in mind. It’s [00:31:20] you’re much more likely to go bust than to survive the first three, five years. [00:31:25] Now, you bought an established business, and this guy obviously was a good guy. The guy you bought it from, the [00:31:30] fact that he even allowed you to go through the business as quickly as [00:31:35] you did. Yeah. I mean, all right, you were committed. Yeah, but you’ll find [00:31:40] a bunch of people that where the business is not a meritocracy, literally is about how long you’ve been there. [00:31:45]

Kash Qureshi: It’s mad, though, right?

Payman Langroudi: But it happens. By the way, I’ve been guilty of it myself. Yeah, I [00:31:50] have been guilty of that. Something I’ve learned over the years.

Kash Qureshi: I thought in prison was at the back. There was. [00:31:55] I didn’t want the war was going on in this place.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:32:00] but my point is, it was a good business that you bought in the first place. Now, do [00:32:05] you want to tell me? You don’t have to. How much did you pay for it?

Kash Qureshi: I can’t really [00:32:10] say. I can’t really say.

Payman Langroudi: You have savings?

Kash Qureshi: No.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you raise money?

Kash Qureshi: I [00:32:15] didn’t circle.

Payman Langroudi: Which is what? Explain.

Kash Qureshi: That funding circle at the time was a crowd [00:32:20] crowdfunding platform. Platform at the time. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:32:25] what, you made a document or a video or something?

Kash Qureshi: No, I just applied online. I think I had a business plan [00:32:30] at the time, and, um, it was just a case of applying, and then, [00:32:35] uh, we worked out an acquisition and then b-01, um, because I was an established manager [00:32:40] there, it was easier for me to do a transition and get someone else coming in. A lot of the clients knew who [00:32:45] I was already.

Payman Langroudi: Did you put zero in yourself or did you put some savings in yourself?

Kash Qureshi: I [00:32:50] put zero.

Payman Langroudi: Oh that’s lovely.

Kash Qureshi: Put zero. That’s the best type of acquisition.

Payman Langroudi: 100% funded by [00:32:55] that. How amazing.

Kash Qureshi: But I spread it over five years. Um, the.

Payman Langroudi: Funding. [00:33:00]

Kash Qureshi: The, um, the payments to, um.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Kash Qureshi: To John, it was a deal was over five years. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: So every deal you made with John.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. So every quarter I had to make a payment to him to get the, [00:33:10] you know, to pay off the shares and eventually gradually take over the ownership [00:33:15] of the shares, because that’s how you gradually do these things.

Payman Langroudi: 100% yourself. You didn’t have a partner or.

Kash Qureshi: Didn’t. [00:33:20]

Payman Langroudi: Have a partner, and you own 100% of the business now. Yeah. John doesn’t John doesn’t own any of it.

Kash Qureshi: No, [00:33:25] no, he, um. He does.

Payman Langroudi: Did he continue? Did he continue for a while?

Kash Qureshi: He still does.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he still [00:33:30] does.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, he still does. I don’t think I would be able to stop him from it. It’s. It’s [00:33:35] in his nature. You know, he’s been he was doing it from you know, he’s been doing it for 40, 50 years. [00:33:40] So it’s what he knows. And he does it from home. And he’s, he’s he converted his shed [00:33:45] into like a lab workshop. Yeah. So he’s done that. But [00:33:50] no from from that. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: How did you go about taking it? I mean, how many years did it take [00:33:55] to go from seven people to 18? And, you know, you’ve grown that business. [00:34:00] So what what was your strategy to grow it, find new customers, I guess.

Kash Qureshi: Well, [00:34:05] it was that I used to approach a lot of, um, the old customers that we lost. Um, the [00:34:10] people leave and come and go for different, various reasons. But, um, I think the, the main [00:34:15] key thing was, was that I wanted to I don’t know why I was stupid now that [00:34:20] I think of it, because now I know a lot more about acquisitions and stuff. But my main aim was to buy [00:34:25] the business quicker than five years, which I’d done in two years. So literally [00:34:30] done it. Two years where it should have been five. And um, now that I think about it, [00:34:35] I could feel, oh man, I could have done a lot more with that money. I could have invested into various bits. But yeah, it’s all water [00:34:40] under a bridge now. But the the growth of the company, I [00:34:45] think it was more down to it was just building more people, just getting [00:34:50] more clients in.

Payman Langroudi: How they.

Kash Qureshi: I was at the time, it was cold [00:34:55] calling, knocking on doors, walking into practices. I remember once I had a client, one client [00:35:00] in Surrey, and I was in the area and I thought, you know what? I don’t know this. [00:35:05] I don’t know these ends. I don’t I’ve never been here before. You know what? I’m going to go to every practice that [00:35:10] I can find. So I just went to every single practice in Surrey. I knocked on the doors, introduced myself. [00:35:15] Yeah. And that seemed to work because I was I was comfortable with doing that. But, [00:35:20] I mean, I could still do it now. To this day, I’ve done it where I’ve just walked into practices and gone, you know. Hi. [00:35:25] You know, my name’s estimate.

Payman Langroudi: How many practices did you either call or just walk into? [00:35:30] Like, are we talking hundreds?

Kash Qureshi: No, I walk in general. All in all, you probably looking at about 50. [00:35:35] I wouldn’t say hundreds. I didn’t have that much time to do it. Plus, um, I started to do [00:35:40] deliveries because I was having access to practices where I didn’t have access to [00:35:45] it, like eg walking into a practice and delivering the work, asking them how’s the work going?

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [00:35:50]

Kash Qureshi: It made sense for me to do that at the beginning. Now it’s not valuable for me to do that [00:35:55] now. I’ve got about three, three, yeah, three drivers now that I do it. So [00:36:00] yeah. Three.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard the story that the guy who owns Deliveroo [00:36:05] he used. He was still delivering 111 afternoon [00:36:10] a week. Really? Like up to two years ago. Like. And part [00:36:15] of it was he sees one of his customers is the delivery driver. Yeah, yeah. And [00:36:20] so he he wants to see what the delivery driver’s life is like. You know, talk to the other delivery [00:36:25] drivers, talk to the restaurant and find out. It makes sense, man. It does make sense. So. All right. [00:36:30] So you you grew it. Um. Were they growing pains as well? There [00:36:35] always is.

Kash Qureshi: There, there is there. I think the main thing is, is keeping an eye on quality of the work [00:36:40] that’s being produced, because you can get to a point where you grow so quickly and so rapidly, [00:36:45] um, that it just spirals out of control. I mean, uh, we [00:36:50] on average get about 100 to 200 cases coming in a day, and it [00:36:55] can get at times. Um, you know, you’ve got to keep an eye on the quality of stuff. And luckily, [00:37:00] now we’ve developed such a good system where we’ve got enough, um, managers and QC [00:37:05] guys now involved that if something does slip up, it has to [00:37:10] it goes through a rigorous checks now, whereas before and it was mainly me doing [00:37:15] a lot of the checks and your eyes end up just playing games on you after a while. That was [00:37:20] the hardest thing, keeping an eye on, uh, costs and keeping an eye on the quality [00:37:25] and just customer relationships. They were the three hardest things, and they [00:37:30] take up your time. And it’s even worse if you’re an operator of the business as well, because you’re stuck at the bench, [00:37:35] you know you can’t do much managing when your head’s stuck on the on the bench and you can’t see what’s going on around.

Payman Langroudi: You, you’re [00:37:40] still doing that.

Kash Qureshi: You, um, I’m doing bits and pieces of it now, but I’m starting to slowly edge off of it. Um, [00:37:45] we’ve got more and more people doing a lot of, um, the more tasks now, and I just oversee a lot [00:37:50] of things now. Um, I prefer it that way. Uh, one one thing it just reminded me of, you know, you was talking [00:37:55] about the AI, um, taking over a lot of, uh, of dentistry. Um, [00:38:00] that analogy of the man and the dog. Do you remember that analogy?

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Kash Qureshi: That [00:38:05] in the future, in most factories, there’s going to be a lot of machines [00:38:10] and just one man and one dog? That’s going to be running a whole factory. [00:38:15] So the man’s going to be operating the machines. Oh, no. The AI is [00:38:20] going to be running all of the machines, and the dog is there to stop the man from interfering.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:38:25] call them. They call them dark factories, right? In [00:38:30] China, they have these 24 hour a day, like running continuously [00:38:35] without any humans. Right. And it’s.

Kash Qureshi: Mad.

Payman Langroudi: And I remember once we were making this one particular [00:38:40] product and we wanted to find a manufacturer for it. Yeah, yeah. And we were in America [00:38:45] and I went to one place and there was like lines and lines of people just [00:38:50] like making it by hand. And then I went to this other place on the border with [00:38:55] Mexico, and it was gigantic. It was this huge, huge lab kind [00:39:00] of thing. And the guy who came to open the door of the thing, and because we were next to Mexico, I thought it was just going [00:39:05] to be thousands of Mexicans sitting there, and there was no humans at all. There was just there was a couple [00:39:10] of guys with clipboards and just machines doing the whole thing. Um, [00:39:15] that.

Kash Qureshi: Is going to be a process. I think.

Payman Langroudi: Byd’s got a factory. You know, the car. The Chinese car.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, [00:39:20] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Bigger than San Francisco. Oh, wow. The factory. I can [00:39:25] imagine.

Kash Qureshi: I can imagine that. That’s actually pretty. That’s pretty tidy. That.

Payman Langroudi: So now [00:39:30] let’s move on to clinical bits. Where what kind [00:39:35] of tips can you give us on? Let’s start with dentures. Okay. What was an aha [00:39:40] moment for you regarding dentures?

Kash Qureshi: Every clinical dental technician will [00:39:45] tell you this one thing. And if they don’t tell you it, change your life. Yeah. If they don’t [00:39:50] tell you this, the first thing you realise as a clinical dental technician is. You know what? [00:39:55] Shit. I’ve been making these special trays overextended for too long.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Kash Qureshi: First thing you learn [00:40:00] is that the special trays that we used to make, that we thought we were going to the periphery, we were just overextending [00:40:05] the hell out of them. And now everyone in my special trays is 2 to 3mm [00:40:10] away from the periphery. Reason being is when you do your impressions. [00:40:15] Now, Rupert. Rupert Monkhouse will love me for this. Um, so if you shout out to Rupert, if you are watching.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:40:20] build your impression from the Rupert Rupert vernacular, right?

Kash Qureshi: I always remember that [00:40:25] photo that he took at bounce. You know, the thing. And he goes, does anybody know who took this impression straight away? Everyone. [00:40:30] Rupert. You just knew it was him who took that. But the main thing is, if [00:40:35] you decrease it by 2 to 3mm, you allow for space for the alginate to get into the three [00:40:40] dimensional space between the cheek and the peripheral area. So it allows you to build a mould. [00:40:45] If you’ve got a special tray, in a way it’s just going to move, dislodge anything. You’ve got no space. So that [00:40:50] was the main clinical tip.

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t done a full full for now.

Kash Qureshi: Really you should do one.

Payman Langroudi: About 1520. [00:40:55] I don’t know how long, but. Is green stick still a thing?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, still being used. [00:41:00] And much more now because of. Um, a lot of the dentists like Mike. Um, he [00:41:05] teaches a lot of people how to use it. Green stick. It’s still. I would still say it’s a good product.

Payman Langroudi: I used to love [00:41:10] it, I love it.

Kash Qureshi: It smells, though, isn’t it? It’s got it’s got that smell, man. It’s got that. You smell [00:41:15] it and you’re like, yeah. I mean, we used to use shellac. The shellac base. I stopped using it because [00:41:20] it’s I don’t know what opium smells like, but I can imagine it being shellac. It’s just giving me a headache [00:41:25] every time I. Because you have to put it through a Bunsen. Yeah. And the smell of it is. Oh, I [00:41:30] just like.

Payman Langroudi: I did a prosthetics job. My first job I did was in a hospital, and [00:41:35] the guy used to. For free and saddles.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, yeah? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Stick the whole saddle. Right. [00:41:40] Um, not just the periphery. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a good, good technique. It really [00:41:45] was. There’s something about making it so. Okay, so your first point was that over [00:41:50] extended special trays.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Anything else? How about the tooth setup to [00:41:55] make it aesthetic, but not like, you know, like denture classic [00:42:00] four four setups that all just the same, right? Yeah. So do you put characterisation in. Do you [00:42:05] involve the patient a lot or not?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, absolutely. Um, we got the Swiss [00:42:10] system that I used and that trains you in utilising the patient’s [00:42:15] facial features, like the centre line, nose, uh, canine line, as I say, but nose [00:42:20] is different in various patients. Like mine would be bigger. So everyone is different. And, [00:42:25] um, you utilise stuff like the eyes, the age of the patient and stuff like that. So. [00:42:30] Yeah. So imagine a bike lock. You got them lines. Yeah. You got your box, your perimeter you’re working with. Yeah. [00:42:35] Um, you got a thing called a masculine setup. So the teeth are position quite [00:42:40] square like, so very much like the central central [00:42:45] lateral. And it goes in back in steps like that. So when the lights hit it, it hits it in various [00:42:50] patterns and it shows up. For some reason you position that five millimetres [00:42:55] away from the incisive papilla. Don’t know why, but they just tell you to do that. For some reason. [00:43:00] I mean, when I teach apprentices, this, um, the female version is actually seven millimetres in [00:43:05] front. Oh, really? They usually ask me why? Because I say, oh, you know, you guys got big mouths, so [00:43:10] I don’t really. But in general terms, they are more [00:43:15] forward. I have no idea.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re picking different teeth for women than men.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. So you know, the canine [00:43:20] line. The centre line. Yeah. That creates your box. Yeah. So, you know, you don’t go.

Payman Langroudi: Deep [00:43:25] into that.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. If you get a mould and you put it in between it, you know it’s going to fit in that box. So you think right, I’ve done [00:43:30] it. You know I’ve nailed it straight away. But most dentists, especially [00:43:35] in NHS game they don’t have time to do these things. Um, so they’ve run the time [00:43:40] constraints and so forth. But you can do it. It’s quick, um, doing the bite registration in general, [00:43:45] getting the ovd rvd um, registering the bite bi facial features [00:43:50] takes about eight minutes in total. Man, that’s how long it took me. And [00:43:55] that’s what me being very pedantic with it. And I’m very pedantic in the clinic with it and [00:44:00] it takes eight minutes.

Payman Langroudi: So then at trying, yeah, classically, I don’t know. I’m [00:44:05] behind with all this, but classically a dentist will try in the denture and he’s really [00:44:10] looking more for the occlusion than how it looks. But when [00:44:15] I did that job in Harley Street, I wasn’t job. I was kind of helping out. Yeah, trying [00:44:20] was the biggest visit. Really? Yeah, that’s.

Kash Qureshi: My quickest one.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. What I’m saying is [00:44:25] at try and this guy was moving teeth, trying different looks and and so [00:44:30] on.

Kash Qureshi: What, the actual dentist was moving the teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So to try and make it look [00:44:35] the way the patient wanted it to look.

Kash Qureshi: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Was, was, you know, he was spending hour [00:44:40] on trying. Oh wow. You know, like like removing everything and starting again sometimes. Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: I [00:44:45] hope he didn’t use his technician half of that.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, we do it himself. [00:44:50] Himself?

Kash Qureshi: Oh, he’s done his own lab work as well.

Payman Langroudi: No, he would do that. He would. He would remove the teeth that the technician had put. [00:44:55] Put his own.

Kash Qureshi: You know what.

Payman Langroudi: Twist on that? Yeah. I’m sure.

Kash Qureshi: Because, you know, when we [00:45:00] get the work back. Yeah, you can see that it’s been moved. Yeah. And it’s just you just got to neaten [00:45:05] it up. But. Yeah, I get that. Do you know something? That’s my quickest appointment is a drying stage. Because I’ve done the [00:45:10] bike stage and the impression stage all correctly with base plates. All of them stages are [00:45:15] done correctly in the right way. They are my quickest. And you know what? I’m not even there half the time for the drying. Um, I [00:45:20] do my checks. Um, aesthetics. Uh, function occlusion. [00:45:25] Um, just general retention, extension, stability, support.

Payman Langroudi: All the kinetics, I [00:45:30] guess.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. So I do phonetics as well, but I usually do that as I’m talking to them. So you [00:45:35] can use paying attention. Yeah. When you’re talking to them you can usually tell. Um, but then again this is what, [00:45:40] you know, at the patient management stage, your speech will be affected for the first 2 to [00:45:45] 3 weeks. Just repeat the numbers from 60 to 70 with the dentures in [00:45:50] and your tongue will retrain itself. Which is true. It does. So that ends up becoming the [00:45:55] my quickest appointment. I usually tell patients to bring a family member or someone in with them [00:46:00] on that appointment only because patients tend to ask you what your opinion is. [00:46:05] Um, I’m looking at it from a technical, clinical aspect. I don’t see your [00:46:10] vision. Bring someone in with you who sees you on a day to day basis. They will [00:46:15] tell you right then that don’t don’t look right. So I always do that. I leave them with a dimension.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:46:20] guy that that family member is the one that’s going to like make say that, say there was something wrong [00:46:25] with the way it was looking. It’s good to get that particular person. Exactly. Because they’re.

Kash Qureshi: Going to they’re going to be the first one [00:46:30] to say they look like horse.

Payman Langroudi: Teeth.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. You know, so if you bring that patient in, bring them in, [00:46:35] leave them with a mirror. Literally. I’ll leave them in there for five minutes. I tell them not to bite hard because that’s what patients [00:46:40] tend to do. They think they can chew rock now. So I tell them, don’t bite hard. Just [00:46:45] take it easy. Have a look. Any adjustments? You let me know at this stage because I can make adjustments. Anything [00:46:50] after that. I can’t do it. So yeah, that seems.

Payman Langroudi: And then the fit visit. [00:46:55]

Kash Qureshi: As quick as well.

Payman Langroudi: Because everything was right.

Kash Qureshi: Them stages are the most quickest [00:47:00] appointments for me. Um, my longest stages are the impression, the secondary impressions [00:47:05] in particular because I’m very, so pedantic with it. And if something just [00:47:10] ain’t right, I will redo it again. Um, I don’t care how it makes me look to the patient if it makes me look incompetent, [00:47:15] I would rather take that than doing it wrong. Doing it wrong.

Payman Langroudi: We used to have a professor [00:47:20] in Cardiff, a prosthetics professor, and, you know, they would get sent some really difficult [00:47:25] cases, right? And sometimes the patient would say on fit day, the [00:47:30] patient would say the dentures are too tight. Yeah. And he had this thing. He would turn around [00:47:35] to me and look at me and smile and he’d say, no problem, no problem. I’m just going to get the denture [00:47:40] stretched and we’ll go to the denture stretcher, and [00:47:45] then me and him would go off to his office and stand there for about 30s and [00:47:50] then come back, and he’d go stretched it nicely out and he put it back in. And invariably the patient would go, [00:47:55] oh, that does feel better. As you said.

Kash Qureshi: It’s a psychological thing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a huge psychological. [00:48:00]

Kash Qureshi: I agree with you. It’s a definitely a psychological thing. Um, and I think that’s the main thing with patients [00:48:05] is managing the expectations.

Payman Langroudi: What about implant retained.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, I get quite a few of those as well.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:48:10] so the conversation I mean, are you patient comes in and says, I want [00:48:15] new teeth. Do you every time offer implant retained as well?

Kash Qureshi: I can I do [00:48:20] if I, if I find them suitable for it. Um, luckily we work quite close with an implant. Dentist. [00:48:25] Which one? Uh, Kashif. Doctor. Kashif. Saeed. Um, are you done? My clinical [00:48:30] training with his brother, doctor Saeed. Uh, in Corby. We used to travel up there every week. [00:48:35] From from from Walthamstow to drive up to Corby every week. Because that’s how they had their practice. [00:48:40] Um, yeah, that was an interesting one. And, um, yeah. Then we [00:48:45] got close. Um, we do a lot of immediate loadings with them, you know, we you go to surgery or whatever. [00:48:50] Yeah, all of that sort of stuff. We learned, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Tips, tips about that.

Kash Qureshi: On the [00:48:55] immediate loadings. Um, because.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a heavy, heavy sort of day, right?

Kash Qureshi: It’s a [00:49:00] heavy day if it’s unprepared. Um, if you’re prepared and got all of the stages done correctly. [00:49:05] Um, from the lab point of view, the clinical aspect just literally, seamlessly works [00:49:10] together. Um, you know, just make sure that you’ve got your, your prosthesis, which you’re going [00:49:15] to convert. Um, we’ve got a specific way of making the, uh, the all in fours. [00:49:20] We make it like a denture. We cut out flap areas and the inside palate, and then [00:49:25] if you go on the website, you’ll see what we mean. And then the reason for that is. So when the dentist is done [00:49:30] taking out all the teeth and has placed the implants, it still allows the denture to sit properly. [00:49:35] Because if you take all of that away and you’ve just got like a an arch.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t [00:49:40] look, it.

Kash Qureshi: Just moves around all the time. It just moves around.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good.

Kash Qureshi: Point. This just holds it in place. Then once you’ve picked [00:49:45] up the, um, the mürz and so forth, you can just cut them bits off because [00:49:50] they’re just little tiny nicks and you just cut them off and voila, you’ve got a bridge. Uh, you’ve got an FP3, [00:49:55] FP2, FP1, whatever you want to do. Um, so that was one tip. I would say. Get a surgical [00:50:00] guide. You need a surgical guide. Um, it’s always worth bringing the technician in when you’re [00:50:05] placing the mürz to see what the angles are. Because you’re fixated [00:50:10] on placing the implants, you’re not your technicians looking at it from. [00:50:15] That’s going to make my life hard. So they will always tell you they want to make their life easy. Technicians will [00:50:20] make their life easy, so they will tell you no, change that to a zero degree one change that so [00:50:25] they will do that. So always bring the technician in on that because that’s worth gold I would say. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: And you’re you’re pricing your [00:50:35] positioning from from the from the patient perspective, is it [00:50:40] right at the top end cost wise for.

Kash Qureshi: For the lab work or to the dentist or for the [00:50:45] patient?

Payman Langroudi: For the patient? For dentures? What do you what do you charge for full, full.

Kash Qureshi: I think for a full, [00:50:50] full. Um, from a correctly I think our precedent is 1500. So it’s 1500. [00:50:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not too bad.

Kash Qureshi: It’s not too bad. It’s not too little. It’s just in between. I [00:51:00] can afford to do that because of the lab? Because I got the lab. Um, plus, we got [00:51:05] a set price. I run them separate businesses, so I still invoice and so forth like that. [00:51:10] Um, you know where I’ve worked it out. You know, I’ve still maintain at least between [00:51:15] the, uh, 60 to 70% profit margin.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice.

Kash Qureshi: So I keep it [00:51:20] that way. And if dentists are out there and they want to do 1500 dentures, speak [00:51:25] to me because we can actually do that with the Swiss. It’s a set price, I do it. I don’t [00:51:30] even work in my clinic anymore. I have another clinician there who does the work. So that was a that was an eye opener. My [00:51:35] employing a clinician for the first time. Oh man, I never knew how to do splits before. You [00:51:40] know, like where you do your. Yeah. I’ve never had to do it before. I had to actually ask ChatGPT how [00:51:45] to do it. And then it gave me a template on how to work out how much to get pay, [00:51:50] you know, 50, 50 percentage. The lab split and everything. I thought, wow, these practices actually [00:51:55] do this.

Payman Langroudi: Is that another clinical dental technician or is it.

Kash Qureshi: Clinical dental technician? Um, [00:52:00] I wouldn’t have minded a dentist coming in as well. Um, I, I didn’t really put it out there as such. [00:52:05] Um, but yeah, I was surprised at how many seats actually applied for it, because where [00:52:10] were we when we qualify? Most of the guys I know, they ended [00:52:15] up opening up their own clinics and stuff, and I thought it was a given that, you know, you qualify and you open up your [00:52:20] own clinic. But I’m finding more and more now working for practices.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:52:25]

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I’m seeing that more and more now.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s the same with dentists. You know, the costs [00:52:30] have gone up in general, so risks gone up. Yeah. And there’s some people who don’t want [00:52:35] risk in their life, you know? I mean, you seem to thrive on it, but there are some. [00:52:40]

Kash Qureshi: People who get it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s some people who absolutely hate it. You know, they just want to do their 9 to [00:52:45] 5 go home. And by the way, as an associate, it’s I mean, I never became a practice [00:52:50] owner. Oh, really? Yeah. Because I was an associate, we started enlighten and, you know, ended up doing [00:52:55] this. But but as an associate, a high earning associate, one [00:53:00] of the nicest jobs in the world, man. Yeah. Especially in a practice where, you know, [00:53:05] they’re good to you in terms of materials, in terms of, you know, a [00:53:10] smart boss will let a high earning associate do absolutely do what he wants to do. Yeah. [00:53:15] And just keep him happy and just keep him. But high earning associates are just brilliant position [00:53:20] to be in. And I can understand why some of them don’t want to ever own a practice. Because literally [00:53:25] 9 to 5 go home and play with the dog. They don’t have to even think about work. And [00:53:30] if you’re in a practice where there’s enough patience and enough work where you’re [00:53:35] a high earning associate. Yeah, yeah, I can understand, man. Why even bother?

Kash Qureshi: You know, someone who I’ve seen thrive [00:53:40] and who I’ve seen who was an associate who now owns her own practices. [00:53:45] Marina. She’s done really well with. The one thing I like about Marina, she’s always [00:53:50] given me her time. Um, even if I rang her up, she would always answer [00:53:55] or get back, you know? Should we ring her now? See if she answers? Sure. Let’s see if she answered, [00:54:00] because she would always give me her time of day.

Payman Langroudi: Would it be funny if she doesn’t answer to you? And she answers to.

Kash Qureshi: Me that. [00:54:05]

Payman Langroudi: She.

Kash Qureshi: She if she. Because what’s the time she might be in practice?

Payman Langroudi: Patience.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, more than [00:54:10] likely.

Payman Langroudi: It’s lunchtime. It’s lunchtime.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, let’s give her a call, see what happens.

Payman Langroudi: I love this, this is the first [00:54:15] podcast first.

Kash Qureshi: All right, let’s just see. Henry, I’ve still got her name down [00:54:20] as. All right. It’s going to sound funny, but I’ve got a name down there. Speaker. Speaker I rang [00:54:25] her. Yeah, I rang her yet because I got her name down as Marina, the Queen of London. Now, the reason why [00:54:30] was because we were doing a real we was doing a skit and I just haven’t changed the name since [00:54:35] that. Right. Let’s put her on. All right. Hopefully I got a signal here. Let’s [00:54:40] see.

Payman Langroudi: How funny. [00:54:45]

Kash Qureshi: She might be busy. She might call back. I [00:54:50] don’t know.

[PHONE CALL]: Hey, guys.

Kash Qureshi: Hey, man. How you doing? You all right? [00:54:55]

[PHONE CALL]: I’m good. How are you?

Kash Qureshi: Listen, listen, listen. Yeah, I was just. I’m on the podcast with [00:55:00] Payman, and it’s live, by the way, and I. She says [00:55:05] hi.

Payman Langroudi: We made a bet. We made a bet whether you would pick up or not.

Kash Qureshi: No, no, [00:55:10] no, what it was, was I was talking about someone who’s always made time for me. And I was saying, that man always [00:55:15] makes time. And I thought, let me just call her right now.

[PHONE CALL]: Look at that.

Kash Qureshi: There [00:55:20] you go. But anyways, I hope you’re keeping well. We’ll, we’ll we’ll catch up soon, man.

[PHONE CALL]: Yeah, [00:55:25] yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Is there anything you want to say? Is there anything you want to say? Quick.

[PHONE CALL]: Oh I know, no, [00:55:30] I’m all good, but. Yeah. Hi. And I’m glad you’re on it. And I look forward to listening to it.

Kash Qureshi: All right, you know what? And anyone that [00:55:35] wants to do the DMR course, it’s running live.

[PHONE CALL]: Academy.

Kash Qureshi: There you. [00:55:40]

[PHONE CALL]: Go.

Payman Langroudi: Talk to Mr..

Kash Qureshi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks.

Kash Qureshi: Bye bye. [00:55:45] Oh wow.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny.

Kash Qureshi: That is.

Payman Langroudi: Podcast first.

Kash Qureshi: You know what I say man always [00:55:50] makes time. And that’s one thing I appreciate more than anything else. Is time like your time I [00:55:55] appreciate that it’s more.

Payman Langroudi: Do you make her veneers?

Kash Qureshi: Um, no, I think she she’s got her own person [00:56:00] who does her veneers because they have her working. As I said to her from the outset, I [00:56:05] have always said to man Reyna, um, she’s guiding me in quite a few things in the right places. And I’ve always said [00:56:10] to her, look, um, I don’t I’m not too worried about doing your lab work. If you do need it, you’re stuck [00:56:15] in a jam. Give me a call. But I’m more than happy to be, you know, as a friend. Basis. [00:56:20] Um, which I’ve established with her over the years. We’ve done so many various things on social media. [00:56:25] So you can understand, uh, Also a working relationship [00:56:30] as such. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you, um, do the work when [00:56:35] you used to do the work. Yeah, yeah. What was what was the what were a couple of [00:56:40] things about a dentist’s knowledge that was [00:56:45] lacking when it comes to, you know, on your side, like what’s, what’s the thing a couple of things you [00:56:50] wish more dentists knew that you’re surprised. They don’t know.

Kash Qureshi: I think it’s more the [00:56:55] materials, um, from the clinical aspect, um, not understanding that [00:57:00] if you leave or if your nurse leaves an impression in disinfectant, [00:57:05] it will destroy the impression we’ve had issues with, uh, practices where we’ve [00:57:10] done the lab work. It’s all fitting fine on the model, because that’s the typical [00:57:15] thing that a lab.

Payman Langroudi: The moment, isn’t.

Kash Qureshi: It? They will say that. Well, if it’s on the model and the dentist will [00:57:20] go, well, I didn’t do anything with the impression, but there’s always that section in between that no one pays attention to. [00:57:25] Yeah. And disinfection. Mixing of alginates. Expiry date of alginate. [00:57:30] That is the biggest killer in profitability in so [00:57:35] many things. Because you get a remake, it’s going to be expensive at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: So for that [00:57:40] reason, we supply alginate with every kit.

Kash Qureshi: We hope you’re using hydrogen five. Yeah, yeah. That’s [00:57:45] the best.

Payman Langroudi: Way to supply hydrogen five with every kit.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like a sachet of [00:57:50] it.

Kash Qureshi: I don’t know which way the cameras. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That way or that one.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. That one.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. So yeah I remember [00:57:55] I got actually approached by Zermatt because, um, I was really raving about it at one point, and they actually asked me to come [00:58:00] down to their place in Italy. Um, they actually asked me to come down and stuff. I didn’t take [00:58:05] it up. I was stupid, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: So, so a better understanding of materials. Yeah, I [00:58:10] find, you know, I’ve seen it from both sides, though. Yeah. So. So sometimes we get [00:58:15] an impression and it’s just wrong. Right? There’s no marginal, you know, the margins. [00:58:20] Completely wrong for a bleaching tray. Yeah. And I know in your world that bleaching tray is nothing [00:58:25] but in our world we make the train a particular way. And so if we’ve got the [00:58:30] the gingival margins, you know, for some reason wrong, you know, whether there’s a, there’s a [00:58:35] artefact there or whether they’ve totally missed it, whatever it is. Yeah, there comes a point [00:58:40] where we contact the dentist and say, look, we need another impression. And [00:58:45] the majority say, go ahead and make it. Yeah. [00:58:50] And I get it on on their side. I do get it. Yeah. Because [00:58:55] it’s hard calling a patient and telling them to come back in to repeat something [00:59:00] that you’ve already done. It’s quite a difficult conversation to have with the patient, [00:59:05] not only because you know you’re wasting time, but you know, how come, how come you didn’t realise [00:59:10] it was wrong the first time? I get that. But you know, with enlightened, [00:59:15] particularly if you’re if you’re using a bad impression, you’re not doing enlighten, you [00:59:20] know, you’ve got a bad tray, you’re not doing enlighten, Enlightened. You’re doing something else. [00:59:25] And so you must have that situation every day, right?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. You do. You do. You [00:59:30] do get these sort of situations happening quite frequently. Um, I think [00:59:35] the hardest thing is I, I because as I said, working in the clinical aspect, I [00:59:40] understand.

Payman Langroudi: You get it.

Kash Qureshi: To. Yeah, I get it to. That’s why all of my clients and even new clients I deal with a lot of. [00:59:45] Yeah. And, um, as I said, because I understand the clinical [00:59:50] aspect, I know where these guys are coming from. I know how difficult patients can be. So, I mean, it’s a bit like what you [00:59:55] do. Some times I will literally say to an associate, you need to use hydrogen five. They [01:00:00] will say, my practice is not buying it. I’ll go into my clinic, bag it up [01:00:05] like a little drug dealer, and I’ll put it in a baggie for him and I’ll give it to them. So take your special tray [01:00:10] with this impression and all the shots of the Mac. Do you remember I used to sell shots [01:00:15] like a bag shot?

Payman Langroudi: What do you mean by shot?

Kash Qureshi: They sell like a shot of, um. They sell them in individual [01:00:20] packages.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s the one we sell.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Sashay sort of thing.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. I mean, I remember for the bapd [01:00:25] once I was meant to get that, but I didn’t come in time, so I had to sit there and bag it all up into bags [01:00:30] and send it to the showcase at the time. But yeah. So I would always [01:00:35] do that. Um, we’ve, we’ve, um, dentists, especially if they haven’t got I understand that [01:00:40] the practice won’t buy them. My way of thinking is, well, if the [01:00:45] boss is not going to buy them, I’m going to buy it myself. But I think differently to everyone else. [01:00:50] But that’s just the way I am with it.

Payman Langroudi: We see. We see associates. All. All sorts. [01:00:55] Right? We’ve got a composite bonding course as well. And and we get some associates, [01:01:00] right, who buy their own scanners.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then you get some associates who [01:01:05] won’t even touch. Like, they definitely will not buy anything other [01:01:10] than their own loops or something. Yeah, yeah. Because in a way, they feel like, you know, the practice is screwing [01:01:15] me enough already as it is. You know, there’s that feeling. Yeah. Mhm. Um, and I [01:01:20] see everything in between as well. You know, you get some associates who come on our course and [01:01:25] immediately buy all the materials and you know it can if you buy everything, it can come to like a £2,000 [01:01:30] of materials on top of the course. And then you get others. And they’ve done a beautiful [01:01:35] job they’ve done. And they can tell it’s the instruments and the materials that are important. And [01:01:40] they’ll say, oh, I’m going to go ask my boss. And you get others who just there’s no even there’s no, [01:01:45] there’s no I guess, by the way, I get it right. It’s it’s money. It’s money. [01:01:50] And, you know, I actually tell them, okay, go try the technique with your own material [01:01:55] and then come back after that. I think.

Kash Qureshi: You’re right. I think you could tell [01:02:00] the difference in between the type of character, shall we say? Yeah. Uh, where someone [01:02:05] will go out and buy their own materials or equipment, or someone else would be happy to use [01:02:10] someone else if it’s there. Yeah. And I think it’s more to do with investment [01:02:15] in, you know, that’s the biggest investment you can do is an investment in yourself. That’s why going [01:02:20] on courses and buying this materials and stuff are buying things yourself. You know you’ve got ownership. [01:02:25] Put it this way if you bought a scanner yourself, you’re more than likely not going to drop that thing on the floor. But [01:02:30] if it’s your boss’s, that’s all right. Oh, sorry. I just dropped that on the floor. Let me just pick [01:02:35] that back up and put it on the shelf. Ownership is totally different. It’s a bit like renting a car. You know, if [01:02:40] you paying rent on a car, like one of them, you know, rent a car, places, you [01:02:45] know, you’re not going to look after it. You’re going to run it ragged. And, you know, unless if it’s your [01:02:50] own car, you’re going to pay attention to it. And I think it’s more to do with ownership.

Kash Qureshi: Well, I think we’re starting to go more [01:02:55] into a because I’m seeing more and more people not wanting wanting to [01:03:00] have assets. It’s strange. Right? They’re like Germany where everything’s rented. And, you know, there’s a big thing about it. [01:03:05] That’s what I’m seeing the culture becoming more of where we know when we deal with banks and stuff. You need [01:03:10] to have some form of assets, but I know that they don’t. Banks don’t really [01:03:15] care if you’ve got assets or not because it’s more headache for them. They just want to make sure that you are financially [01:03:20] viable and that’s the main key thing with them. So if anyone’s out there that are looking to [01:03:25] do various bits and pieces with banks, just take that one bit of advice that, yes, it’s nice to have assets, [01:03:30] but they don’t particularly pay too much attention because it’s going to cost them a lot more to seize [01:03:35] that asset. You know, uh, you know, like tangible assets, like microphones and all that, you [01:03:40] know, what are they going to do? Who are they going to sell it to? They’re going to sell it to, you know, it takes time.

Payman Langroudi: How old are. [01:03:45]

Kash Qureshi: You? I’m 37 now.

Payman Langroudi: So have you got like a five year, ten year [01:03:50] idea of what’s going to happen next.

Kash Qureshi: Man. You know, growing up I was lucky to make it [01:03:55] to 20 years old. So, um, but I was, you know, I do have a plan, um, [01:04:00] in place.

Payman Langroudi: Um, are you going to buy more labs, for instance?

Kash Qureshi: I might possibly do, um, you [01:04:05] know, there is that section there. There is a sector there. Um, to buy more laboratories, grow the business. [01:04:10] My main thing is the future. I’m always thinking in the future, I’m. I know about here and now [01:04:15] and present. I present. I am aware of that. I’m aware that these things are happening. But I’m just thinking about [01:04:20] the future and you know, the future that I want for my family, uh, for my daughter, [01:04:25] um, you know, growing up and stuff like that. My wife, my daughter. I want to be able to [01:04:30] be able to just spend more time, you know, every day I do a thing [01:04:35] called a service technique. I don’t know if you know that savours technique. No, it’s a mindset [01:04:40] thing. Um, where you do a silence for [01:04:45] six minutes. Uh, affirmations, uh, vision. So you you sit there and think about [01:04:50] a vision, uh, exercise reading. And I think the last one is scribing. [01:04:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes. It’s like that early the morning routine.

Kash Qureshi: I wake up, I wake [01:05:00] up quite early in the morning, uh, sometimes about two, sometimes three. I wake up naturally.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re [01:05:05] awake?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I’m ready for. I’ve got to tell you a story about this man. I’m ready for war at that time because I do my stretches at [01:05:10] three. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What time do you go to bed?

Kash Qureshi: Um, sometimes. Eight. Nine.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God. What time [01:05:15] did you get home?

Kash Qureshi: I can’t sometimes I can’t remember. Two. Two. Three.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. [01:05:20]

Kash Qureshi: Okay. That’s better. It’s just lately I’ve been coming back. Back lately because I’ve been. I’ve had [01:05:25] so many things this this month.

Payman Langroudi: So your whole day has just pulled back?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. That’s basically. [01:05:30]

Payman Langroudi: When you wake up to when you get home.

Kash Qureshi: At that time, because I feel like I’ve got an edge over the world and people and [01:05:35] stuff like that. And the only time, the only people that are around at that time in the morning is [01:05:40] spirits and ghosts and demons and drug dealers. That’s the only things that people around at that time in [01:05:45] the morning. But I’m cool in that environment. I can operate in that environment. But doing that savers technique [01:05:50] works. It calms me down, makes me think straight. It puts me in the right sort of [01:05:55] mindset. Plus, I go to the gym four times a week as well, so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s 4 [01:06:00] a.m..

Kash Qureshi: I’ve done that. It didn’t work man. I was knackered after that, but I usually go [01:06:05] after I go to the lab because the gym is across the road from me, so it makes sense to go there. But [01:06:10] I tend to do the savers technique. Um, that puts me in the right mindset for the rest [01:06:15] of the day. Plus, doing the exercises stretches you have to do, um, where you’re working at a bench, you’re always sort of like [01:06:20] that. So it really does do your backing after a while.

Payman Langroudi: Um, one thing I’ve noticed about labs, [01:06:25] um, I hung out a bit at, uh, you know, hit hit Palmer. [01:06:30]

Kash Qureshi: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah I do, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of hits at his lab and with our lab when [01:06:35] we were a little bit undermanned. Yeah. One thing. One thing about labs is that, you know, you’re [01:06:40] working to a deadline.

Kash Qureshi: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so sometimes people have to stay [01:06:45] late. Is that right? Does that happen to you? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That happens.

Payman Langroudi: And so what if you’re leaving at [01:06:50] two or do you stay late those days.

Kash Qureshi: Them days I’ll stay late if it needs to be done. [01:06:55] Yeah. If it needs to be done, it needs to be done. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not shy. I get my hands dirty.

Payman Langroudi: And you know what I’m [01:07:00] saying? If your day is like, generally you’re going home at two. Sometimes it sometimes because I remember [01:07:05] hit slap. Once we were I was like eight at night and everyone was still there because there was a they were [01:07:10] behind. They had That’s that’s extreme. They had to deal with it, you know?

Kash Qureshi: And you have.

Payman Langroudi: To. Look, we have [01:07:15] a thing express. Yeah, yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Like a day or something. Same day.

Payman Langroudi: Same day. [01:07:20] A normal turnaround is ten working days. Our express is three working days.

Kash Qureshi: Wow. That’s [01:07:25] a big difference.

Payman Langroudi: So and then and we’ve got a type of user who we give express to [01:07:30] every single case they do. Okay. So yeah they’re big. We call them elite partners. Now [01:07:35] you must have that situation right where you said 100 to 200 [01:07:40] a day comes in.

Kash Qureshi: That’s I think some labs are out there doing so much more.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course they will. [01:07:45] Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: But you know how many he does.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me.

Kash Qureshi: Man, I heard.

Payman Langroudi: 100,000. [01:07:50]

Kash Qureshi: A week.

Payman Langroudi: 100,000 a week, minimum.

Kash Qureshi: They do [01:07:55] 90,000 crowns a week.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God, man.

Kash Qureshi: Imagine doing that. [01:08:00] Business is a beautiful business. Them guys know what they’re doing there. But American, the American [01:08:05] dentistry is totally different.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. It’s a much bigger market. But. But tell me this. You get sometimes [01:08:10] a dentist says, um, can I have it back by next Wednesday? And they [01:08:15] don’t get that. You can’t sometimes do that even though next Wednesday [01:08:20] is six days away. It’s impossible for that to happen. Explain. Explain that [01:08:25] because we get that all the time.

Kash Qureshi: I’ll explain it so the dental practice. Understand? [01:08:30] I don’t think they actually get it with practices. They have set numbers of patients that come in. [01:08:35] You basically say that this dentist is going to do ten patients today. [01:08:40] You wouldn’t give them 20 because you know he’s not going to be able to do it. Labs operate [01:08:45] differently where we have a pickup. We don’t know if we’re picking up one job [01:08:50] or 30 jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: If you get that over a range of 60 to 70 [01:08:55] drops.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive difference.

Kash Qureshi: You’ve got so many cases coming in, [01:09:00] and every lab is exactly the same because you can’t control them. Amount of units. The [01:09:05] only time you can control it, like what we’re doing now, is that if we are overloaded on [01:09:10] that day, um, our admin team would ring the department and say, uh, [01:09:15] x, Y and z cases in. Will you be able to move another case or [01:09:20] can we move it on to that day. And then I will talk about it. Some days you can. You’ve always [01:09:25] got to leave a little bit of gas in the tank to take on an extra case here and there. I tried to work in advance. [01:09:30] So our lab system is built in a way that our internal dockets [01:09:35] that are our internal deadlines are two days ahead of the appointment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we do the same. [01:09:40]

Kash Qureshi: You have to. Otherwise sometimes we have to work to the docket. I mean, there was a stage where, you [01:09:45] know, it’s like if you got an X amount of work, you can’t turn anything around for 2 [01:09:50] to 3 weeks and you’re all working flat out to do it. And I think the main [01:09:55] thing is, I mean, what’s your views on people saying about work life balance? Do you [01:10:00] think that’s a thing?

Payman Langroudi: Not for me, not for me, but I do recognise it with [01:10:05] the Employees.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You gotta understand, when you own the business, you [01:10:10] basically set it up to your own preference. Like you’re saying, you go home at two. Yeah. You [01:10:15] can’t do that as an employee.

Kash Qureshi: No, no, no. You’re right. I mean, I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t think there’s such a thing. I sometimes [01:10:20] don’t even like the weekend coming, you know?

Kash Qureshi: I don’t mind it. I mean, don’t get me wrong. [01:10:25] I don’t mind it. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just being honest sometimes. Yeah. I prefer the week to the weekend. And the reason?

Kash Qureshi: Because you’re busy [01:10:30] doing things or.

Payman Langroudi: Just during the week. I’m my own boss. Yeah. During the weekend, I’m working for [01:10:35] the family.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s.

Kash Qureshi: A big part of why I.

Payman Langroudi: Love working. [01:10:40] I love working for the family, but I feel like on a Tuesday I can [01:10:45] do exactly what I want. Yeah. On a Saturday. What are [01:10:50] we doing? What are we doing as a family?

Kash Qureshi: There’s no structure.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice. It’s nice doing things with the family. But. But [01:10:55] what I’m saying, sometimes I prefer the week. Yeah. Never, never see [01:11:00] that in an employee. Never.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, I get that. And I think that phrase has been [01:11:05] used a hell of a lot lately in.

Payman Langroudi: Work life balance.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, that phrase just gets overused, but I think what’s ended up [01:11:10] happening is it’s getting used by the wrong type of people, because people use that as a [01:11:15] justification to not do stuff. And I think that’s what’s happening. Can be I’ve [01:11:20] seen it happen with people where it’s a bit like the word that gets used [01:11:25] a lot is passive aggressive. That gets so much like.

Payman Langroudi: Sort of opposites.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, man. [01:11:30] You know, I had to I had a staff member tell me about another staff member who was passive aggressive. [01:11:35] And I thought, you know, I’m gonna have to research this, this word because everyone keeps using it. And I looked it up [01:11:40] and there’s about 40 subheadings as to what a passive aggressive person is. [01:11:45] And there was only one thing on there that that person followed. [01:11:50] And I’m thinking right. So you’ve just labelled someone a whole thing over this [01:11:55] one word of passive aggressive. But I think that’s just a culture.

Payman Langroudi: What I will say about work [01:12:00] life balance is this definitely happening in dentistry. Tell me if it’s happening in labs as [01:12:05] well. A lot of the young dentists are saying, I want to work three days a week or [01:12:10] two days a week, and I only want to do this type of work. And that’s the work life [01:12:15] balance I want. Yeah. And it pisses off principals. It pisses [01:12:20] off, uh, you know, old school people who say, well, what do you mean? You’ve got to be a dentist. You got [01:12:25] to be able to do everything. And it pisses off people who essentially put in the hours themselves [01:12:30] back in the day and can’t understand why a young person would now be that way inclined. But I [01:12:35] quite like it. I think it’s nice. It’s nice. Do you get that in technicians? Do you get technicians [01:12:40] coming in saying, I just want to work two days a week? Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: No. That happens. You just got to be flexible. Yeah. As an employer, [01:12:45] as I said, it goes back to people and understanding people. The younger generation are not [01:12:50] going to do the same things that I had to do. Yeah. They’re not going to. It’s as simple as times are different. You just [01:12:55] got to be flexible with people. And I have noticed it’s very difficult with dentists to actually [01:13:00] do that where they work in, in various practices because from our point of view, we’re chasing dentists around [01:13:05] oh so and so is not working today. He’s at so and so and you ring that oh no, he’s not here. So I [01:13:10] get that.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, one thing, one thing I think people don’t appreciate. I didn’t appreciate it until I got a lab [01:13:15] here was the number of people you need just for that sort of follow [01:13:20] up. The the instructions aren’t clear. Like we’ve [01:13:25] got two full time people chasing just just odds and ends. Odds [01:13:30] and ends like, you know, no one understands that. That’s something that has to happen. Yeah. No, [01:13:35] it’s it’s frustrating.

Kash Qureshi: But I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the business.

Kash Qureshi: It’s the it’s the nature of the business. [01:13:40] At the end of the day, they’ve always been very much like that. I would say, um, where they [01:13:45] constantly, um, we constantly we, we, we [01:13:50] send emails now and our dentist once actually rang me, um, because I had a good relationship [01:13:55] with. She rang me, she went, why do you send me emails? Why don’t you just phone me and tell me that the [01:14:00] shade’s not on it or you can’t. Or the date’s too quick, I say, well, I don’t think you would like to get disturbed [01:14:05] at 3:00 in the morning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: I don’t know about you unless you want me to, but I don’t [01:14:10] think that we should go down that road. So emails are the best ways.

Payman Langroudi: Traceable as a guesstimate. [01:14:15] What percentage of your work is scanner and what percentage is.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, that’s getting higher and higher now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:14:20]

Kash Qureshi: Um, I would say at least a 40% now is becoming more scannable 3D prints. Yeah. [01:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: 3d prints I see houses 6065.

Kash Qureshi: Well, your most yours is 3D prints. That’s [01:14:30] beautiful for bleaching trays and shutdowns and stuff like that.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I prefer models, [01:14:35] man.

Kash Qureshi: No, I’ll tell you what. If you put. All right, if you if you got some, um, have you [01:14:40] got some tester, I can tell you which one is done on a 3D printer and which one’s done on a plaster. Yeah, just based [01:14:45] on the quality of the enlighten the of the whitening tray.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:14:50] I my my, my, I’ve tested it. My position on it is that I can make a tray [01:14:55] on a plaster model than on a plastic model.

Kash Qureshi: I don’t know. I’ve got mixed views on [01:15:00] it.

Payman Langroudi: We’re trying really hard to make them as good as each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. At the very end [01:15:05] and with our process, with our process, there’s different processes, right? Um, we’re trying really hard [01:15:10] and we’ve improved it a lot. Yeah, yeah, we’ve improved. But and, you know, 65% of them are scans right now. [01:15:15] Yeah. So there’s no way around this. It’s going to be soon. It’ll be 85 and then soon to be 100%. Yeah. Um, [01:15:20] but right now I prefer it’s to do with the the gas permeability [01:15:25] of the stone. Yes. Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Well, you got to control the expansion rates.

Payman Langroudi: As [01:15:30] an as an air goes through the stone. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas air doesn’t go through the resin.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:15:35] No. Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: It depends on your.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a resin that is gas permeable? I don’t know. I haven’t found a resin. [01:15:40] I’ve tried 12.

[TRANSITION]: There isn’t a resin.

Kash Qureshi: But it could be more to do with [01:15:45] the actual 3D print. Are you doing, like, a full base or a horseshoe?

Payman Langroudi: No. Horseshoe.

Kash Qureshi: Horseshoe? So that should be fine. [01:15:50] I mean, I know obviously I’m not going to ask you what machines you’re using and so forth, but it depends on the machine. [01:15:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, for the print. A cigar?

Kash Qureshi: No no no no, not not that. The actual machine that you’re doing [01:16:00] your your suck downs on. Your pressure forms on.

Payman Langroudi: I see.

Kash Qureshi: You now. And, uh, it depends [01:16:05] on the type of beads. You know, back in the day, we never used to use the metal beads. We used to use lentil seeds.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:16:10] we’ve done that too.

Kash Qureshi: We used to use lentil seeds, uh, back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: Just cheaper. Right?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. [01:16:15] And it used to allow air to travel through. We used to drill holes in models. [01:16:20] That was one thing we used to do.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve tried printing holes in models.

Kash Qureshi: No, [01:16:25] no, I wouldn’t think so. It’s I find with the I [01:16:30] was doing a lot of 3D printing, uh, pressure form at one point I was just getting loads of them. And [01:16:35] it depends on I mean, you if you I’m saying it depends on the separating [01:16:40] solution. That’s the main key thing. If you tried using a relief spray.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, [01:16:45] we do. Yeah. Yeah we do.

Kash Qureshi: Depends on the relief spray.

Payman Langroudi: Or the type. [01:16:50]

Kash Qureshi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, excellent.

Kash Qureshi: We’ve got a special one that we buy from. Um. Uh, [01:16:55] I think it’s Abby Dental supplies. I mean, if you can, you can. You can speak to them directly. I’ve got [01:17:00] no problems with it. And we buy it specifically for them because of the the [01:17:05] heat factor. Every one of these release bays I use at different heats, because we use them with our [01:17:10] valve system, because them crucibles are heated up to like 500, 700 degrees. So [01:17:15] you need a release spray to withstand that amount of heat. Same thing with the melting the suck downs. Because [01:17:20] it works both ways, we tend to get good results with the. I’m sure your whitening trays [01:17:25] are exactly the same, where you test the quality of the pressure by. If you hold it [01:17:30] up into a light, you can see the detail of the gingival crevices. It looks like it’s like [01:17:35] a masterpiece. When you look at it, you’re like, because we do that with our quality control, we look at it and [01:17:40] then you can see the crevices, everything. And it’s just like, bang, you know, when it hasn’t pressure form, when [01:17:45] it’s dull.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Kash Qureshi: When you get that dull look and you’re looking at it and you think, yeah, you need to redo that again. [01:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: You know your stuff.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. Well, yeah, I’ve done so many of them that I [01:17:55] just know what I’m looking for, and instantly I can tell if it was done on a model or if it [01:18:00] was done on a 3D print. There are obviously loads of techniques that you know what? Just like yourself, I’ve [01:18:05] tried loads of techniques. I’ve tried so many things to get it.

Payman Langroudi: The nice thing about we used [01:18:10] to outsource our lab work, and the nice thing about having it in-house is that you can try things.

Kash Qureshi: Absolutely [01:18:15] R&D all the way.

Payman Langroudi: Quite difficult with an outsourced lab because outsourced lab does not want that call. [01:18:20] Know that says, hey, try this, try that. They just want to get on with the job.

Kash Qureshi: I know, I know, I know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:18:25] tell me this. We’d like to talk about mistakes on this pod. What comes to mind when I say [01:18:30] what mistakes have you made? I’d like kind of like one. Which is like a technical [01:18:35] one. And one that might be like a business one.

Kash Qureshi: Okay. Um, [01:18:40] a technical one. I’m just trying to think of the biggest mistake I made. Well, [01:18:45] it wasn’t really my mistake, but as an owner, you have to take it as your mistake. Yeah. Um, we’ve [01:18:50] done a case, Uh. Dentist. Uh. I [01:18:55] don’t know. I made sure I was on top of it. I made sure that it was good. Correct. Everything [01:19:00] was right. Very particular dentist. And it [01:19:05] got to it. I double checked everything. I made sure it was all all right. The [01:19:10] name on the 3D print was the same. Everything was good. Went to the practice. The wrong job [01:19:15] in the 3D.

Payman Langroudi: The name.

Kash Qureshi: They put the wrong file [01:19:20] in the wrong place. And the name that. That patient that cost me that practice, [01:19:25] that cost me that practice. And I didn’t really I [01:19:30] was I was annoyed because it was for a friend that the dentist was one of my friends. [01:19:35] I would class her as my friend and um, that happened and I had to explain [01:19:40] myself to, um, the dentist in the end.

Payman Langroudi: And it was a clerical error. [01:19:45] Do you not have a technical error, like a situation where a patient’s been left [01:19:50] and a dentist gone berserk. And because I’m sure maybe this dentist did. Yeah, but something [01:19:55] you did wrong. Something what could it be like? I don’t know, I don’t. Know enough [01:20:00] about it.

Kash Qureshi: I’m just trying to think of what the the biggest, the biggest faults we would get technically [01:20:05] is if we’ve done the wrong shades or if we’ve made it completely the wrong job, or we [01:20:10] missed an extraction or we haven’t done a.

Payman Langroudi: But you sometimes the technician goes in for [01:20:15] the shade taking. Right.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then and then the shades still wrong. But [01:20:20] that and it’s stressful. I’m sure as the technician who’s going in because you’ve got to make [01:20:25] it absolutely right now because you were there. Yeah. It must be very stressful. Yeah. [01:20:30]

Kash Qureshi: I think the the cases that we find are most stressful is a remake of [01:20:35] a remake. Ah, because it’s a lot of cost involved in that from your time, clinical time. [01:20:40] Um, so it’s a lot of wasted time. And that to me seems like the biggest. [01:20:45] I’m just trying to think if there’s any because we’re we’re dealing with so many cases. I’m just trying to think of. There’s one in particular [01:20:50] that’s gone wrong. I can’t off the top of my head.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it comes to you later. What [01:20:55] about business error?

Kash Qureshi: Uh, business error.

Payman Langroudi: Something you’d wish you’d done differently [01:21:00] sooner or later? Different. Someone you treated, an employee who [01:21:05] left unexpectedly. Something like that.

Kash Qureshi: I think the the biggest thing [01:21:10] for me would be probably spending more time working [01:21:15] on the business rather than in the business.

Payman Langroudi: You wish you had done that earlier.

Kash Qureshi: Because at [01:21:20] the end of the day, when you focus working in the business, you know you’ve [01:21:25] got a lot of people that rely on you to be, you know, they’ve got mortgages, they’ve got families. Yeah. [01:21:30] You know, in the grand scheme of things, all of a sudden you’ve got like 100 people that you’re responsible for. [01:21:35] So working you owe it to your people to work [01:21:40] on the business rather than in the business, because you need to be bringing constant revenue in to [01:21:45] cover costs. Make sure everything’s okay. Um, I wish I understood [01:21:50] finances more. Um, that would have been my key thing, too. I mean, I went on an accountancy [01:21:55] course and everything because I didn’t understand what my accounts were saying to me. They talk to you in a language that you don’t [01:22:00] understand. And I think they did it on purpose, actually. But they they talk to you in such a way [01:22:05] that you just don’t get them half the time. So I went on accountancy and I started understanding what these guys were [01:22:10] saying. Yeah, it did, it did. I started understanding things and I understand, [01:22:15] you know, I started understanding gross. You know. Net bottom line, top line. I, I [01:22:20] got it. Now I can look at a managerial report which I get monthly. Now that’s the tip for anyone who’s doing [01:22:25] business in your practice. And make sure you get a monthly management report. Don’t listen [01:22:30] to your accountant say it’s okay. Every quarter. Make sure you get a monthly one. You’ll start seeing trends.

Payman Langroudi: To be able to read it though. [01:22:35]

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, well you have to be able to read it as well. But I mean you can. Anything in brackets means [01:22:40] that you’re at a loss.

Payman Langroudi: At the beginning.

Kash Qureshi: That’s the easiest way [01:22:45] of saying it. If you see brackets, you know that you’re at a loss. So just focus on the numbers. Without it, [01:22:50] they don’t they don’t simplify. They don’t tell you. You’re just expected to know. Make [01:22:55] sure you understand your books. Because if anything goes to HMRC, you know there’s two [01:23:00] certain things in life. There’s death and taxes and HMRC won’t go to your accountant. They will go to you. [01:23:05] You’re responsible, not them. You even have to sign a bit of paper to say that your accountants [01:23:10] are not responsible for anything than they are. But, um, I would definitely suggest that.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:15] how about just where the business slows down? I mean, dentistry does tend to be [01:23:20] quite cyclical in that right now it’s very slow half term. Half term. Yeah. Um, [01:23:25] have you had moments like have you had it long enough now that you can see those patterns. [01:23:30]

Kash Qureshi: We used to be able to. The trends are just so bizarre now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah you’re right, you’re right. It’s much [01:23:35] more volatile now than it used to be.

Kash Qureshi: I mean, October’s used to be the most busiest. Yeah. December, obviously. Crazy [01:23:40] Christmas rush. March. April. You’d a rush. You know, they were your set time. [01:23:45] But now, um, we’re finding that, uh, January February is the most busiest. [01:23:50] And turnover. It’s more higher in ten months than it is the rest of the months. And I don’t know if [01:23:55] that. I did see a report from, um. Evident who I’m so touch [01:24:00] wood. If this is wood. Um, I’m happy on the fact that they’ve done a report on [01:24:05] the lab industry, um, on whatever labs they’ve got. And they were saying that in the first [01:24:10] quarter, a lot of labs were down by like 8%. They were down. Mine was [01:24:15] up by 10%. So I was happy I was above board keeping things in the right way. I’m [01:24:20] moving in the right direction. So I was happy. The first quarter I was 10% higher than I was.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:24:25] have you ever been in the opposite situation where you feel like.

Kash Qureshi: Oh man, you know, the biggest mistake I ever had? And I just [01:24:30] come to me, right? I had payroll two days time, had [01:24:35] bills, you know, all them sort of things happening. And then this [01:24:40] was late paying me, man. You guys don’t like paying labs. I don’t understand why.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it.

Kash Qureshi: Very cool? Man? [01:24:45] We got lives.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common, isn’t it?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, it is, but I think it’s just business. I [01:24:50] only found out about for years how the NHS system actually pays dental practices. [01:24:55] I never knew. I just assumed that they got him every month. It was only until I found [01:25:00] out once that they get paid at a certain time. I thought, why didn’t they tell labs that nobody, no lab [01:25:05] knew this or they did? I don’t know, they didn’t mention it. But anyways, yeah, two days payroll [01:25:10] looks at my bank account. Od’d on. I gotta [01:25:15] buy a Hoover. I didn’t have enough money to [01:25:20] buy a hoover that month. Didn’t have enough money to buy even a hoover. I [01:25:25] was so reliant. I don’t like being in that position. I was so reliant on certain [01:25:30] clients paying. So I had enough for payroll. Do not be in that situation. [01:25:35] There’s not an enjoyable. They paid and I paid staff. I didn’t pay myself. I didn’t pay myself that [01:25:40] month. Yeah, because I just just didn’t pay myself just to make sure I was. I was more fretting [01:25:45] first ever time that happened to me, that happened to me within the first four months of me [01:25:50] owning the business. So you got to remember, I don’t know these things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So cash crisis. That is right. [01:25:55] I think we spent the first three, four years in from one cash crisis [01:26:00] to another. Yeah. You know, it’s one of those nightmares. And the reason I asked you about the [01:26:05] sort of the seasonal.

Kash Qureshi: Cash flows.

Payman Langroudi: And the seasonal trends, I remember being [01:26:10] caught out like every August for the first four, you know, they just did not understand. [01:26:15] Wasn’t expecting until I got the pattern recognition effort, you know. Oh, yeah. August [01:26:20] is going to be quiet. That’s the best time to.

Kash Qureshi: Start taking holidays.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. You [01:26:25] know, end up going to Lebanon in August, which is a terrible time of year to go, [01:26:30] but only because it’s slow, right? It’s slow. It’s a slow time of year. Let’s [01:26:35] end with the usual questions. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation.

Kash Qureshi: Oh me too. I enjoyed this. It’s been [01:26:40] really good, actually.

Payman Langroudi: The final questions are around. Um, fantasy [01:26:45] dinner party.

Kash Qureshi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests. Dead or alive. [01:26:50]

Kash Qureshi: Dead or alive? Right. Okay, so one of them would definitely be Jim Glidewell.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s [01:26:55] that?

Kash Qureshi: Glidewell dental labs.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Kash Qureshi: He’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kash Qureshi: California. [01:27:00] Yeah. He’s done really well. And his success shows. I would love to.

Payman Langroudi: Glidewell I [01:27:05] thought I heard yeah well who’s that? Glidewell. Glidewell. Glidewell. Yeah [01:27:10] I heard light bulb. Jim.

Kash Qureshi: Jim. Jim Glidewell.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Um, so yeah, that would be one. [01:27:15] Another one would be the strange one because I’ve never really, really talked about it with anyone would be my granddad. [01:27:20] I never met him, but I knew he had something to do because I remember seeing a book, [01:27:25] you know, like with them images that they used to draw, like scientific things. I remember seeing [01:27:30] that. So I think he had some sort of technical background in something. So I would like to have done [01:27:35] that with him.

Payman Langroudi: And dad’s dad or mum’s dad.

Kash Qureshi: My mom’s dad. Um, but I didn’t really [01:27:40] know my father that well. Um, I’ve sort of seen him a [01:27:45] few times in my life.

Payman Langroudi: Your own father?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, my real dad. Um, yeah, I’ve seen him a few [01:27:50] times in my life, and, uh, he died, uh, just after [01:27:55] Covid in that time. I remember that very well, actually, because, uh. Yeah. Thanks. [01:28:00] Um, because I was in the lab, a phone call from my uncle. Now [01:28:05] you’re a member. I’m quite distant with my real father as well. So it’s a bit like. Oh, okay. [01:28:10] He’s not here anymore. Okay. I [01:28:15] didn’t know how to take it. So, um, that’s when I had this tattoo done, uh, [01:28:20] of the Eye of Horus and the Eye of Ra. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did your parents [01:28:25] split up?

Kash Qureshi: Yeah, when they were young. When they were young? Young? So just literally after I was born, [01:28:30] actually, they split up, so I got the phone call. I remember it very well because [01:28:35] I had drivers that were giving me grief in the morning about their run going, oh look, look, look. [01:28:40] I’m sitting there just biting my tongue sort of thing, trying to keep my cool [01:28:45] with everything. But yeah, that happened. And, um, you’d like.

Payman Langroudi: Feel a deficit [01:28:50] of not having your dad around as growing up? Or was it you never [01:28:55] knew any different or. I mean, surely when, when when he passed away, you must have reflected [01:29:00] on that question.

Kash Qureshi: I think the only thing I would have reflected on, because I didn’t [01:29:05] feel that much emotion at the time, because everything [01:29:10] that I wish growing up as a kid, you know, like I see my friends doing stuff [01:29:15] with their dads, you know, they used to do like, uh, you know, go to [01:29:20] the park or even something simple like that. Put the socks away for the dad. Like the dad would put the socks away in a drawer. I don’t know why I [01:29:25] remember that, but I remember that in my head I’m thinking, well, why am I dad doing this? But then [01:29:30] everything that I’ve been taught and everything I’ve done, I don’t think there’s much he could guide me [01:29:35] in life with afterwards, because I had done. I’ve gone through some of the most horrible [01:29:40] things as a young age. I’ve. If you think about my trajectory from young to 26, [01:29:45] I had done a lot of things that most people take some 50, 60 years to do or [01:29:50] go through. So there wasn’t much he could show me. And, you know, [01:29:55] there’s a phrase, um, that Tupac says in one of his songs. [01:30:00] Sorry. You could tell it was from the streets back in the day. Yeah. That he says, you know, [01:30:05] uh, he says something that, um, people thought I was, um, [01:30:10] I was heartless because, um, I didn’t cry when [01:30:15] my father died. But how can I cry for a stranger, you [01:30:20] know? But my anger couldn’t let me feel for a stranger, as he says in his song. [01:30:25] Which is true, and I, I, I knew that phrase quite well, because when I had done my media [01:30:30] studies thing, we had to make a magazine, and that was one of the key phrases I used. I didn’t think, [01:30:35] now that I think about it just now, I think that maybe there was a subliminal thing from there [01:30:40] to there, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Look, the way you said it to me, when when that incident happened [01:30:45] and you realised I’ve got to get myself out of this situation. Yeah. There’s a self-reliance [01:30:50] that comes with not having your dad around. A self-reliance. [01:30:55] And that self-reliance is probably the reason why you manage to do all the things you managed to [01:31:00] do. Yeah. So, you know, you as a 17 year old, were way [01:31:05] more independent and self-reliant than I was. Yeah, because you had to be. Yeah. [01:31:10] So I get that, I get I get the benefit.

Kash Qureshi: I got to thank my mum for that because she taught me. I haven’t told you about [01:31:15] the first time I got paid.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Kash Qureshi: Oh. When I first started the lab, the first ever [01:31:20] payment from the lab to buy.

Payman Langroudi: Something for your mum.

Kash Qureshi: No, no no, no. Oh, you know what? I was shocked [01:31:25] myself. I still had mum, if you’re watching this. Yeah. You remember this day as well because I. I kicked about [01:31:30] it. First paycheque was £496. Yeah. As an apprentice? Yeah. [01:31:35] Working my ass off. Literally. Yeah. I come home, I [01:31:40] show my mum my first paycheque. I said my wage slip was a green one. And I said, look, this is my first paycheque. [01:31:45] She said, oh, okay. That’s really good. Yeah. Really proud of you. I’m gonna need £300 [01:31:50] for rent. I went you what? She went. Yeah. Do [01:31:55] you think things are free? And you know what? I kicked up about it. I said, what’s the point of me working? [01:32:00] I might as well just not work, you know, because you’re just taking everything. You’re literally robbing me. I might as well even just work. So [01:32:05] literally, you know, after that, now that I think about it, you know what? What I would do to go back to them days, you [01:32:10] know, because them days were I wasn’t as grateful as I am now, [01:32:15] knowing the amount of bills I got coming out left, right and centre, you know, running a business, family life, [01:32:20] house, you know, so many expenses going out. Man, what I’d give to go back to that day of [01:32:25] that. But yeah, that was some crazy times back in the day. But I think [01:32:30] that being self-reliant has helped me do a lot of things that I’m doing now in business. [01:32:35] It teaches you to go through the hurdles. You know, you get a bad month. I’m not going to sit there. You know, [01:32:40] some of the situations I’ve been in, like for instance, like payroll two days time, no money. [01:32:45] You know, some people, you know, commit suicide over things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: But you’ve got to think to yourself, [01:32:50] you’ve got to have that mentality of the hustlers mentality. I’ll get it back on the next one, and [01:32:55] I did. I got it back on the next one. Sometimes when I have conversations with my accountant and he [01:33:00] just puts me on a depression mode for some reason, I don’t know. Skilful in making you depressed about life [01:33:05] and go, look, you know, you just gotta be positive, man. That’s just the way things are in dentistry. Oh, but you know [01:33:10] business. Listen, you don’t understand dentistry. Dentistry is not the same. As you [01:33:15] know. We’ve got different expenses to you guys. We’ve got different expenses. You just gotta understand, things are different. [01:33:20]

Payman Langroudi: I think in business in general. Right? You. After a while, you come to, you still [01:33:25] have all the ups and downs, but you just come to manage them better in terms [01:33:30] of whatever the bad news is you feel like. Either it’ll go away or you’ll [01:33:35] find a way around it. Whereas at the beginning I remember like massive, like [01:33:40] worry and pain. Whenever anything bad would happen.

Kash Qureshi: Yeah. You think about it a lot, [01:33:45] right?

Payman Langroudi: A lot. And guilt and whatever it was, whatever the thing was, um, treason, [01:33:50] you know? Whereas now, you know, stuff still happens every day, man. Yeah, [01:33:55] but but, you know, you’re just more sort of level headed about it. Um, it’s like, you know, it’s like it’s [01:34:00] like being calm, getting used to the chaos in a way. Yeah. You know, I tell.

Kash Qureshi: You the last thing, I’ll leave you with my [01:34:05] street life. The last thing was only happened about a year and a half ago. I was doing my [01:34:10] usual run and coming into the lab early, like 2:00 in the morning. I was driving a smart car at the time. Not [01:34:15] a fancy car. Just run around. Two door thing. I was going through Chingford. You know where Chingford is? Yeah. [01:34:20] So I was driving through Chingford and there’s a McDonald’s on a corner. And, um, I’ve been [01:34:25] previously stopped by police a lot of times in the car, and so I’m used to it. Yeah. [01:34:30] So they’ve done a lot of stop and searches and so forth like that. So I’m driving and um, [01:34:35] this car comes out of McDonald’s and comes up behind me, starts flashing his lights, and I’m thinking, okay, [01:34:40] maybe he wants to overtake me. Maybe he wants to go into the next road is coming up because there’s a roundabout there. [01:34:45] Unmarked, unmarked. I thought it was unmarked. So I thought, okay, this is what they do because they police. [01:34:50] If they’ve ever stopped you. Anyone knows that they ride up really close. They try to startle you at like 2:00 [01:34:55] in the morning for like, okay, he’s signalling to turn left, so I’m thinking he’s going to go left in a second.

Kash Qureshi: He [01:35:00] didn’t. And I thought, right, he’s following me. He’s still doing his speeding up slowing down, flashing I come to [01:35:05] the roundabout I thought I’m gonna turn. I’m not going to signal where I’m going to go. If he follows me, I know it’s on. [01:35:10] So he follows me. I ring the police, I say, right, I’m at some location [01:35:15] in Chingford. Is this one of your guys behind me right now? This is his reg plate. [01:35:20] Because you guys do things like this and this is all recorded on police. I’ve still got the texts text [01:35:25] from them and, um, they went right. There’s none of our police people in this area [01:35:30] right now. I thought, oh, shit. I thought, something’s going to go down. So then [01:35:35] this guy starts speeding up on the side of me. We’re driving, like 50 now, [01:35:40] both from each side. Um, we’re at a golf course bit. Yeah. So we’re both driving. He’s driving on the opposite side [01:35:45] of the road, so he’s trying to push my car in. I think. What the hell’s going on? I’m on the phone to [01:35:50] the police at that time.

Kash Qureshi: And I said, right, I’m coming up to a dual carriageway. You know, it turns into a dual carriageway. [01:35:55] I said, one of us is going to die right now, and it ain’t gonna [01:36:00] be me. What do I do? Because he’s going neck for neck with me. [01:36:05] I’m driving. I’ve literally got a barrier right in front of me. And the police guy went, he goes, [01:36:10] I don’t know. And I went, what do you mean you don’t know? He goes, I’ve never been involved [01:36:15] in anything like this. Like a hijacking. It’s me. Hey, you need to tell me what to do right now. So luckily, [01:36:20] by then, the guy drove behind me and said, right, I’m going to be coming up to the end of this road. I’m [01:36:25] going to hit the a406 where the traffic lights are at the end of that long road. I said, I’m driving through that and I’m going to [01:36:30] lose this guy in Walthamstow. This is me. I better not get any tickets from you guys because [01:36:35] this is me. And then I got to the lab. He went, he disappeared somewhere, and [01:36:40] I said, oh, I thought only I could get into a situation where I’ve just got.

Payman Langroudi: No idea what. [01:36:45]

Kash Qureshi: That was. I don’t know, maybe he wanted to hijack me, I thought, but not today. It’s a bit like the whole [01:36:50] thing. When I eventually got knifed, I got to a point in life where I’ve said, [01:36:55] I’m not going to let these things happen to me like it did back in the day. And I thought, nah, he ain’t going to happen. Sorry. [01:37:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s the thing you say about the cops in the suburbs. The cops aren’t busy enough, right? [01:37:05] So I used to get stopped quite a lot in Kent when I was living there. A nice car. [01:37:10] Yeah. And once, once I ended up going, like, left, left, [01:37:15] left, left, left. He kept on following me. So then I got to a big roundabout and just kept going. Round and round and [01:37:20] round and round.

Kash Qureshi: He’s on drugs or something.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:37:25] it was just like because they kept following. And then eventually he [01:37:30] stopped me. So why were you going round? Round and round the [01:37:35] roundabout. And I said, why were you. And he let me off. And, um, [01:37:40] the third guest. The third.

Kash Qureshi: Guest. Um, I haven’t really [01:37:45] had time to actually think about it, to be perfectly honest with you.

Payman Langroudi: Um, would you not want your dad to [01:37:50] find out what he was like?

Kash Qureshi: I’ve spoken to him a few times. Um, [01:37:55] we couldn’t really communicate that well because, um, he’s Pakistani, [01:38:00] so he speaks Urdu, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Was he over there? Yeah. Oh, I.

Kash Qureshi: See. [01:38:05]

Payman Langroudi: So I.

Kash Qureshi: Don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Speak.

Kash Qureshi: The language I used to when I was really young. So communicating is very difficult. I [01:38:10] mean, it’s more like a yes no nod. Nod your head, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kash Qureshi: Here’s [01:38:15] where he is. Don’t get me wrong. Uh, I probably would have liked to, but I don’t [01:38:20] really know. No, I don’t think I would. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Fair enough.

Kash Qureshi: Just, you know, I’ve. [01:38:25] I’ve gone through life with so, so much without life now. My mum’s happily married [01:38:30] now. Um. I’m married. I’ve got my kid now, so you know.

Payman Langroudi: How old’s your [01:38:35] kid?

Kash Qureshi: Uh, two going on three, man. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult time. The beginning is difficult.

Kash Qureshi: She was premature. [01:38:40] 25 weeks.

Payman Langroudi: She was? Yeah, she was.

Kash Qureshi: The size of my hand.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Kash Qureshi: So, yeah, that was [01:38:45] a tough time. Back and forth through Whitechapel, Royal London. Like a different [01:38:50] country when you go Whitechapel. Yeah. Uh going Royal London.

Payman Langroudi: That market. Right.

Kash Qureshi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You literally [01:38:55] come out the station. You’re in the market. Like people don’t care. I know, rock up anywhere. And it’s not just selling you [01:39:00] things, but yeah, as I said, I mean, hopefully if one things people can get from this podcast [01:39:05] is they can see that, you know, the resilience is there to just keep on going. Um, [01:39:10] you know, you got to keep on going in business and everything. And I’ve always been like with the lab side, with the clinic side, [01:39:15] just keep it going and keep it moving and make time. I like people who can make [01:39:20] time for me, and I make time for them. Like, man, you know, I always make time for man Rena. And [01:39:25] I hope she thinks the same and she can make time for me. I mean, I honestly thought she was going to be. [01:39:30]

Payman Langroudi: The.

Kash Qureshi: Answer man. She picked up. She picked up, man. Good on you, man. Rena. You picked up for me. [01:39:35]

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Three pieces of advice on your [01:39:40] deathbed for your loved ones.

Kash Qureshi: Uh. Always [01:39:45] be nice to people on the way up, because you might just see him on [01:39:50] the way down. Um, time is the most valuable [01:39:55] asset. Um, and health. The [01:40:00] the two things I always am thankful for every day. Um, in my part of my technique [01:40:05] and my affirmations, I’m always thankful for, um, my time first and my health. [01:40:10] Because without time, I’ve got no health. And I know I think it’s just [01:40:15] a street mentality where you think that you’re not going to live past 23? I’m always curious. I. Time [01:40:20] is everything to me. I’m always very headstrong on time. You know, I allocate certain times [01:40:25] to gym. You know, I live that that way. And I think I’ve always just been like that growing up and everything. [01:40:30] But time always value time and make time for people.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. I’ve [01:40:35] really enjoyed.

Kash Qureshi: Have you had any have you got any advice?

Payman Langroudi: Advice for life? [01:40:40]

Kash Qureshi: For life? Yeah. In general, you know, I haven’t had a dad, so, you know. Yeah. [01:40:45]

Payman Langroudi: I think the one thing I mean, I’m interested in the notion of, [01:40:50] uh, children. Right. What do you want for your child? Yeah. And you can’t [01:40:55] overdo it. You can’t say, oh, I want my child to be a surgeon. Surgeon or [01:41:00] something. It’s ridiculous. Well, the things I’ve come down to is I want my child to be confident. [01:41:05] Yeah, yeah. Confidence is quite important in.

Kash Qureshi: Something.

Payman Langroudi: Right? It’s certainly not arrogant. [01:41:10] I mean, the opposite of arrogant. Yeah. Confident. And I want my child to be kind, [01:41:15] you know. And I’ve really come down to those two things, you know, trying [01:41:20] with, with my.

Kash Qureshi: Feelings and kindness.

Payman Langroudi: Confidence and kindness. Those two things are really, really key. [01:41:25] Um, the other thing I’d say is around work. I mean, look at someone [01:41:30] like you. You’re so driven. You know that. You know it’s within you. And I like [01:41:35] my kid to want to change the world somehow. [01:41:40] You know, like, make, you know, the famous, um, Steve Jobs thing make a dent in the world. [01:41:45] Yeah. To want to make a dent in the world. But by the way, someone might not want [01:41:50] to do that, right? Someone might want to do a 9 to 5 and surf and bring up a family.

Kash Qureshi: There’s nothing wrong with that.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing wrong [01:41:55] with that either. But, but but for me, that’s my particular bias that I want them to want to make a difference. [01:42:00] Mhm.

Kash Qureshi: I agree with you. I think there’s nothing wrong with that. I think that’s a very sound platform [01:42:05] to establish with um you’re never going to know what your kids are going to end up becoming. I don’t know what my daughter’s going to [01:42:10] be.

Payman Langroudi: And you and your mum had no idea you were going to be a dental technician.

Kash Qureshi: Nah, man, she didn’t know. [01:42:15] But then again, in the Asian community, you get usually pushed into doctors or dentistry. I [01:42:20] mean, obviously I went into a total different there’s not many Asian people in dental technology, I don’t think. Yeah, there’s not [01:42:25] that many. There’s probably a handful I can probably name on my hand. Yeah. Literally one. There’s there’s [01:42:30] quite a few others that I’ve seen now, but there’s not that many of us. And I think it’s because [01:42:35] we’ve gone more into, well, not me personally. They’ve gone more into.

Payman Langroudi: Professions.

Kash Qureshi: Into dentistry. [01:42:40] I think that’s why. Another thing why I relate with a lot of dentists is because I’m Asian. Yeah, [01:42:45] I am Asian. In case anyone’s wondering, I am Asian. They they always ask me. They don’t think I am. I [01:42:50] don’t think I’m lying. And then they ask me, what is your mum and dad? But seriously, where do you come from? That sort of [01:42:55] thing. But I can relate to him on that basis. I can relate to him on the basis that [01:43:00] I’m in that sort of age group, and I can relate to the younger guys as well. I don’t know if it’s because of the [01:43:05] tattoos and stuff, but I can relate to people because in clinical school they used to frown on that. Now [01:43:10] it’s quite common to have tattoos.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Now I think your superpower. Is that right? No, [01:43:15] sorry.

Kash Qureshi: You can say, you know what? This has got me into places.

Payman Langroudi: You can talk [01:43:20] to people you can relate to people.

Kash Qureshi: I think it’s being down to earth.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed it, man. [01:43:25] Yeah. Me too. Thanks a lot for coming.

Kash Qureshi: No thank you man.

[VOICE]: This is [01:43:30] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:43:35] leaders in dentistry. Your [01:43:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:43:45] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:43:50] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and [01:43:55] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [01:44:00] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:44:05] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [01:44:10] forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlightened. Recently, one of the groups did a survey to understand [00:00:05] what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their dental chair. And listen came in as a second most profitable [00:00:10] thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if your dental chair is busy, [00:00:15] it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on Enlighten Online Training to [00:00:20] fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about it. Deliver brilliant results [00:00:25] every time. Enlighten online training.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great [00:00:50] pleasure to welcome Shamika onto the podcast. Shamika is a [00:00:55] long time friend. We were talking about it maybe 17 or 18 years ago. We met. You you’re already a practice [00:01:00] owner there and always, always looking for excellence in practice. But for me, someone who [00:01:05] on the dental circuit is kind of a fun loving criminal. No, I wouldn’t [00:01:10] say criminal. Not criminal. No, it’s not.

Shameek Popat: A bad description.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. No joking. I’m [00:01:15] joking. No fun loving dude. You know, like you’re looking to turn [00:01:20] the experience of dentistry into more of a fun experience. And that definitely resonates [00:01:25] with me of late. You sold your practice and now products. [00:01:30] So tooth Angel, which is a eco friendly luxury [00:01:35] oral care brand. Luxury? Would you say premium?

Shameek Popat: Definitely luxury. Premium for sure. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know. We were talking about this. You know, enlightened used to be premium. It’s turned into luxuries and prices [00:01:45] of, um, luxury luxury oral care brand. And just [00:01:50] lately, disruptive smile smiles, which [00:01:55] is more education? We don’t know. Really. You’re going to tell me more about it?

Shameek Popat: Definitely. Definitely. Listen, [00:02:00] first of all, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a long time coming.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Thank you so [00:02:05] much for turning up finally. Right.

Shameek Popat: Look, I always told you that I wanted to have [00:02:10] things to talk about.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve always got things.

Shameek Popat: To talk [00:02:15] about, things to talk about. It was really funny, actually. Um, we’re totally going to go off topic now straight away. I [00:02:20] just mean to Tuscany and somehow, um, in the car journey on [00:02:25] the way back, obviously we’re talking I had the family with me and stuff, and I don’t I don’t know how [00:02:30] the conversation started, but we were talking about if you had to [00:02:35] lose one of your senses between speech, hearing or sight, [00:02:40] which one would you be willing to give up? And you have to choose one. [00:02:45] And it was a really fascinating conversation because all of us, for [00:02:50] us, sight was really important. You know, the world is a beautiful place and you want [00:02:55] to be able to see what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean completely give up? Like you’re blind [00:03:00] or completely deaf? Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting.

Shameek Popat: So it was really [00:03:05] interesting. And actually, majority of the car went deaf and I said [00:03:10] speech actually, because I want to see and I want to hear and the rest of the family saying [00:03:15] that there’s no way you’ll be able to cope with that. You have always something to say. [00:03:20] Yeah. You always want to speak. Yeah. You always want to have an opinion. Yeah. So that was [00:03:25] quite fascinating to see what they thought and what I think. Yeah. [00:03:30] Actually, I don’t know if you actually have heard of Charles Bukowski. [00:03:35] He’s a warrior poet.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a warrior poet, [00:03:40] poet.

Shameek Popat: And he said, can you remember who you were [00:03:45] before the world told you what you should be?

Payman Langroudi: As [00:03:50] in those childhood hopes and dreams?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s keeping the keeping [00:03:55] that alive, which I feel like you do. Yeah, keeping that alive is a talent [00:04:00] in itself. Because the world has a way of squeezing that stuff out of you. [00:04:05] No.

Shameek Popat: Absolutely. But you, I mean, surely.

Shameek Popat: Payman you yourself as well. You’re probably a totally [00:04:10] different person as a family man. Yeah. And as the CEO of enlightened and [00:04:15] how you portray yourself with enlighten, surely that must be two different things, right?

Payman Langroudi: Although I don’t [00:04:20] I’m not the CEO of Sanchez. Sanchez.

Shameek Popat: That’s right. Right. As you know, part of enlighten. [00:04:25] Yeah. One of the main guys I’d lighten and.

Payman Langroudi: All the different [00:04:30] roles in life, right? Because, I mean, we were discussing this yesterday with the team, right? That [00:04:35] are they can they put the same content on Instagram as they put on TikTok? And [00:04:40] I’m saying absolutely not. Because what would be the point if there be two different. [00:04:45] There are times where I want to be on TikTok that other times I want to be on Instagram and I’m a different [00:04:50] it’s a different room altogether. But you’re right. In an interview for [00:04:55] a job, you’re this one person in the aether on a table. This other person. There’s [00:05:00] many facets of of your your life. Um, which one are [00:05:05] you most comfortable in?

Shameek Popat: You know what? My own skin. My own skin has always been fun [00:05:10] loving, you know, trying to get the joy out of life. I’ve always been a half glass full person. [00:05:15] Um, and, you know, that was a conversation that I also had with the kids [00:05:20] and stuff and everything. And I’ve always, like always said to people fit into the room [00:05:25] you put in. So I’ve always said that I’ll, you know, I can go to a festival, [00:05:30] sleep in a tent, go to the horrible lose there and [00:05:35] survive, or.

Payman Langroudi: You know, with Prince Albert of Monaco.

Shameek Popat: Or. Yes, put me in [00:05:40] a penguin suit, put me in a high end dinner and stuff and be able to know what forks, how [00:05:45] to eat, how to drink, how to taste wine. You got to you got to [00:05:50] learn it all And find out what resonates with you, what [00:05:55] you feel the most comfortable with. And that’s what you will end up doing the most of. But [00:06:00] be there to experience it all. Do not, do not just [00:06:05] something. Oh, that’s not for me. Put yourself out for us. Put your passion. Infuse your passion [00:06:10] into everything that you do.

Payman Langroudi: You know, dude, because I recognise myself in you. I [00:06:15] want to ask you whether you’re struggling with the same thing as I’m struggling with [00:06:20] on with respect to what you just said, insomuch as I had a long [00:06:25] 45 minute conversation with ChatGPT about this before it told me my my premium [00:06:30] time is up. Yeah, it was, it was being wonderful and then suddenly became all dumb and agreed with everything [00:06:35] I said. But this question I asked, the question that that I’m having trouble or [00:06:40] had have had trouble in my life differentiating between pleasure and [00:06:45] fun and joy and happiness and contentment, You [00:06:50] know. And one of those five is six is totally different to the others. Contentment. [00:06:55] Yeah, it’s totally different to the others. Yeah, but I’ve had trouble separating those [00:07:00] in my life.

Shameek Popat: Is that but that’s probably [00:07:05] a personal thing because they can all interact. Right. One can lead to another. [00:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you said as well.

Shameek Popat: Oh, there you are. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Probably I started off by saying it’s very common, very common problem.

Shameek Popat: I can definitely [00:07:20] see that.

Payman Langroudi: But the contentment piece, do you see it as. Do you see it in opposition [00:07:25] to pleasure? Enjoy the pleasure particularly. Yeah, that’s that’s the question. I really struggle [00:07:30] with you because you think they’re all in the same ballpark. Yeah, but I see those two in total [00:07:35] tension.

Shameek Popat: Okay. So it begs the question, what is contentment to you? So [00:07:40] that’s the question you need to ask yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Correct.

Shameek Popat: And then you find the answer. What [00:07:45] is contentment to.

Payman Langroudi: You not wanting Doing something right in a way. Yeah. Being [00:07:50] happy with what you have. Whereas pleasure to.

Shameek Popat: So actually something I’m reading [00:07:55] at the moment as well and stuff and I think as dentists and the [00:08:00] way we are, we aim for perfection and I know I do. All right. [00:08:05] It always there’s a word in Gujarati that’s called [00:08:10] jalsa which means it will do. And I’ve always hated that word. You [00:08:15] know, when someone says it’ll do a good enough. And it really irritates me when [00:08:20] someone says that and stuff and it.

Payman Langroudi: Says I’m just like that. So I’ve learned that from saying, man, [00:08:25] I, I was that cat. I was that if it came to a product, a design, [00:08:30] a communication, a higher, a fire good enough was where [00:08:35] I was at. And science used to just you could see him just shiver. He [00:08:40] wants the best. Yeah. And positioning wise. Right. You know, you’re positioning this product [00:08:45] as luxury if you’re your positioning at the top end good enough isn’t even part of the conversation. [00:08:50]

Shameek Popat: No, no it’s not. But what this told me, actually. [00:08:55] And then sometimes because you beat yourself about it, right? And it really creates a lot of strife and hard work [00:09:00] and sleepless nights and stuff and everything. But what what this was saying and, you [00:09:05] know, something that has a message that we should all take, um, is there is beauty in [00:09:10] imperfection. Yeah. And the story was, um, it was a really [00:09:15] good story. So hang on. Let me let me let me recall it. It was a young Japanese [00:09:20] warrior who wanted to learn the tea making ceremony. And, you know, the tea making ceremony. Japanese tea making [00:09:25] ceremony is perfection itself, right? Everything has to be really, really perfect. So [00:09:30] the teacher said, before I teach you, I want you to clean that garden. Clean [00:09:35] the garden. So it’s beautiful. So he spends ages making it absolutely [00:09:40] perfect. Cleaned it, raked it, made it look perfect. Came back and looked at it, and [00:09:45] it was it’s pristine. But something was missing. She went to [00:09:50] the cherry tree, shook it, and a few blossoms fell down. And then he came back and he looked at [00:09:55] it and it was beautiful. So there is beauty in perfection. [00:10:00] And apparently from that the whole ceremony changed a little bit so that the tea ceremony had a little [00:10:05] bit of imperfection in it, just so that people can see the beauty in it. And I thought, [00:10:10] oh, actually, I like that. Maybe, maybe we don’t need to beat ourselves [00:10:15] up too much. No no no no no. And I do that, you know, constantly.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, [00:10:20] but the Japanese, they’ve got that broken vase put back together with the gold bits [00:10:25] and the cracks. Yeah, whatever that was called, but as well. Right. That’s the same idea.

Shameek Popat: Same idea? Yeah, [00:10:30] yeah, the whole concept that the.

Payman Langroudi: Other thing, the other thing that I sometimes struggle with is struggle is a [00:10:35] funny word, but I struggle with is whatever the idea is, whatever the thing is, [00:10:40] whatever I’m assessing, I go, is that good or is that bad? Not [00:10:45] making enough space for. It’s both good and bad. And I don’t know if you’ve been to Bali. They’ve got [00:10:50] their ceremony. Where at one side they’ve got the good dancer, then [00:10:55] they’ve got the bad, you know, the devil, the god, the devil. And at the end it’s always a draw. It’s always [00:11:00] a draw between those two.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but I’m saying when you look at something. Oh, this, this [00:11:05] move you made into toothpaste, is that a good move or is that a bad move? It’s limiting to [00:11:10] put it into one of those two categories. Yeah, it’s good in many ways. It’s bad in some ways. Right. [00:11:15]

Shameek Popat: You know, with with this um, [00:11:20] let’s talk about tooth angels. Let’s talk about tooth. Yeah. We’ll talk about tooth angel.

Payman Langroudi: Over. [00:11:25] Pass over. Well while we talk about it, Passover.

Shameek Popat: Where you.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:11:30] now, I wanted to do the unboxing.

Shameek Popat: Myself. Oh, sorry, my friend.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s see. Uh, I wanted to do the on books and [00:11:35] myself. Go ahead.

Shameek Popat: Explain.

Shameek Popat: So tooth Angel is.

Shameek Popat: A health.

Shameek Popat: Led, planet positive [00:11:40] concept. Um, you know, it’s it’s sort of obvious. [00:11:45] I’ll give you the backstory.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So it’s it’s a luxury [00:11:50] oral hygiene brand with sustainability at its heart, because self-care [00:11:55] should not just benefit us, but should benefit the planet as well. You know, um, [00:12:00] there’s a guy called Robert Shaw who said that the worst [00:12:05] thing that you can do in the world is expect others to make the [00:12:10] planet good. So if you don’t step in and do something yourself, even if it’s a little, [00:12:15] you’re not going to have a world or a planet to live in. And during [00:12:20] Covid, I was watching Suspiciously plastic Ocean. I [00:12:25] was literally shocked at the amount of plastic in our oceans. And I don’t know if [00:12:30] you know these facts and stuff. Like just in the US alone, 2 billion toothbrushes are thrown away [00:12:35] in the world is an approx 23 billion toothbrushes [00:12:40] being thrown away every year, and only 91% or 91% [00:12:45] of it is not recycled. Only 9% is recycled. So can you just imagine? The rest go into [00:12:50] landfills and the environment. I thought as dentists we surely we we [00:12:55] have to do something about it. So I went I went on a big research mission. [00:13:00] Um, I read papers, I went travelling, and, you [00:13:05] know, obviously, if you think what jumps out is, oh, bamboo [00:13:10] toothbrushes. Right. Okay. They must be surely good. Yeah, but bamboo toothbrushes [00:13:15] are not the answer. Why? Bamboo is made of wood, sugar and starch absorbs [00:13:20] moisture. Moulds. Who wants to put a mouldy piece of wood in their [00:13:25] mouth because the bristles are nowhere as good? Plus they come away from faraway countries.

Shameek Popat: So just [00:13:30] the carbon emissions itself negate anything good that they bring to it. Plus, I don’t know if you’re [00:13:35] aware of it. With bamboo toothbrushes, you’re actually supposed to snap the head off, throw [00:13:40] the handle in the seat and the head in your normal waist. How many people do that? And if [00:13:45] you don’t do that, the whole thing is a waste. So if there’s one message that comes out, if you’re using bamboo toothbrushes, [00:13:50] snap the head off, put the handle in the composite and head can go into [00:13:55] your waist. But it was little things like that and it just didn’t. And plus [00:14:00] people go through loads of bamboo toothbrushes as well. So they need a lot more bamboo toothbrushes [00:14:05] as well. So again that negates any use to us. But don’t get me wrong. Anything [00:14:10] that stops plastic getting into our oceans and landfills I’m for. So I’m not against it, but [00:14:15] it did not resonate with me. The other thing like obviously [00:14:20] toothpaste, toothpaste tubes, toothpaste tablets. Love the idea, the concept [00:14:25] are good, friends are doing it and I really support them. But you know, I like toothpaste. A lot [00:14:30] of friends and people that I talk to like toothpaste. I wanted to do something with toothpaste, but I wanted to be clever about it. So [00:14:35] which is why I went travelling. I went Switzerland, Germany, Italy, manufacturers [00:14:40] to come up with the solutions that we have. So I see you handling [00:14:45] the toothbrush here. If you pass that to me.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:14:50] when you say toothpaste gone.

Shameek Popat: Let’s do this one and then I can talk about, uh, why [00:14:55] do we throw a toothbrush away?

Payman Langroudi: Because the bristles are.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. [00:15:00] The bristles wear away. They become ineffective. Okay. But you throw the whole thing away. Mhm. All right. [00:15:05] So it’s a huge waste with this.

Payman Langroudi: You actually pop out the bristles. [00:15:10]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. You keep the handle for life clean.

Payman Langroudi: It keeps a plastic handle. But you only.

Shameek Popat: Keep recyclable plastic. [00:15:15] This is recyclable as well. This we actually also have a tooth angel zero waste box. [00:15:20] And we recycle everything that we provide with TerraCycle as well. So practices [00:15:25] can have their teeth. Angel zero waste box. So that’s a 92% [00:15:30] plastic saving in itself. Okay. That’s a huge, huge saving. [00:15:35] Plus these bristles. They’re carbon activated so they’re antibacterial [00:15:40] anti odour humidity regulating quick drying and soft. You [00:15:45] know John Coats. Yeah John called it one of his two favourite toothbrushes. [00:15:50] So that was really. And the floss as well. His favourite. One of his favourite floss.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:15:55] his other favourite.

Shameek Popat: Uh, it’s called a Nimbus. What’s that? It’s a Mexican. No [00:16:00] no, no, it’s it’s plastic. But the bristles. He loves the bristles because they’re soft. Okay. [00:16:05] And I don’t know. So obviously the question comes, [00:16:10] you know, is. But it’s still plastic. Right. Now [00:16:15] here’s where the greenwashing stops. So in September 2020, uh, Prof. [00:16:20] Ashley from UCL and Brett Dewan from Trinity College Dublin did a series of papers in the British [00:16:25] Dental Journal, and they did a cradle to grave assessment of every toothbrush [00:16:30] out there. So normal plastic manuals, bamboo, electric [00:16:35] and plastic with replaceable heads. And they found plastic with little head. The best for the [00:16:40] environment and associated human health by far. So suddenly we had research behind [00:16:45] it.

Payman Langroudi: Did it already exist?

Shameek Popat: You know what? This is the funny thing. So we we did [00:16:50] the idea and stuff and everything and stuff. And then I was doing research for the pitch [00:16:55] deck. Yeah. And the papers came up. Yeah. And I was like this. It was [00:17:00] meant to be. I actually didn’t know.

Payman Langroudi: So the papers kept. So it did already [00:17:05] exist.

Shameek Popat: So the papers were already there? I just didn’t know I hadn’t read them. I found them afterwards, and I was like, [00:17:10] oh, my God, I just landed.

Payman Langroudi: It came to the right conclusion.

Shameek Popat: Conclusion as well. So. Yeah. See? Great minds think [00:17:15] alike.

Payman Langroudi: Look, what I’m interested in doing here is positioning. Yeah. [00:17:20] Positioning. So we talked about positioning before. Is it luxury. Is it premium. Is [00:17:25] it. And you said it’s luxury. Yeah. But positioning now. Now we’re talking positioning.

Shameek Popat: Give me your [00:17:30] definition. Difference between luxury and premium.

Payman Langroudi: Luxury is one of our premium. [00:17:35] So so premium might be Marks and Spencer, luxury might be Harrods food. For [00:17:40] the sake of the argument, I don’t know. Uh, what’s it called? Um, the Amazon [00:17:45] one. Um, the organic store anyway. [00:17:50]

Shameek Popat: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, now, [00:17:55] when I say positioning, that’s that’s price and quality positioning. But now [00:18:00] we’re, we’re talking about, you know, brand values. Right. And, and you’re seeing the brand values [00:18:05] here as well as the, you know, research you’re putting into each product is the green part [00:18:10] of it, right? I find that though like [00:18:15] it’s, it’s it’s probably a temporary win [00:18:20] if it’s a win I mean let’s, let’s say it’s a win for the sake of the argument. Yeah. Because it’s not it’s [00:18:25] very expensive recycling everything. And you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a pain in the ass being this [00:18:30] this this company. Right? So let’s imagine it’s a win and more people [00:18:35] will buy buy it because of it. Yeah, I feel like it’s a contemporary one because everyone [00:18:40] will have to become green soon. Yeah. [00:18:45] And then you can say, oh, we’re even more green than the next one. But you know what I mean? The moment Colgate [00:18:50] has to legally has to do these things, they will. Right. They’ll [00:18:55] have, you know. So I’m not saying it’s a problem. You know, the more awareness [00:19:00] this this subject gets, the better.

Shameek Popat: So you’re absolutely correct. So, um, [00:19:05] what I should make clear, actually, is we’re clinicians. So [00:19:10] whatever we were going to make was always going to be the best for you as well. Okay. [00:19:15] So our our priority number one is that these are good products [00:19:20] that are good for you with the research and backing behind it. The sustainability [00:19:25] is the kicker. Yeah okay. So it’s the secondary part to it. But I [00:19:30] didn’t. I didn’t want to make, um, products that [00:19:35] are not going to be good for the environment as well. Oh, sure. Sure. Right. Um, [00:19:40] because you’re planning.

Payman Langroudi: On electric as well. Must have. Do.

Shameek Popat: Not [00:19:45] yet. Uh, never say never. You know, but not yet. The [00:19:50] reason being, again, electric is more than five times worse [00:19:55] than what we’ve created for the environment. Um, and, you know, there’s this whole.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:20:00] you not use an electric toothbrush?

Shameek Popat: No, no, I’ve always used manual.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why it’s [00:20:05] always. Always.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. I’ve used electric when I’ve had samples and stuff and everything. Again, [00:20:10] I don’t know whether it’s a control freak or whatever, but. Oh. So I’ll tell you why. I created [00:20:15] one of the reasons I also we created this and stuff as well, is I wanted a brush that [00:20:20] felt like a spy in your mouth. When you brushed, it felt like, oh, that feels good. I want [00:20:25] it to bring that love back to brushing and flossing. I didn’t want to make it a chore. [00:20:30] Which is what most people see it as I want it to do. Oh, actually, you know what? I’m looking forward to brushing with [00:20:35] this. I’m looking forward to flossing with this floss because my hands are going to smell really nice afterwards. [00:20:40] My breath is going to smell good. My teeth are going.

Payman Langroudi: To feel good. I’ve long thought flavour in [00:20:45] toothpaste is is like, why can’t toothpaste be absolutely delicious? [00:20:50] Like like, look forward to it. Delicious.

Shameek Popat: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? Like. And I’ve [00:20:55] always wanted to do that product. Yeah, but Santa has stopped me. And he’s probably been right. Because [00:21:00] you have to do SKUs. Then you have to do lots. Excuse me, but I don’t know if you’ve tried the dark wood and Tanner [00:21:05] toothpaste.

Shameek Popat: No, I haven’t, actually. I didn’t even know they had water.

Payman Langroudi: It’s second best toothpaste [00:21:10] in the world after.

Shameek Popat: Enlightened, obviously, but that’s what you haven’t tried. The tooth angel.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:21:15] tasty that the tastiest. Yeah, because they’ve got four different flavours. Yeah, I [00:21:20] bought all four and I used to choose, you know. Yeah. Brazilian lime [00:21:25] one day and then choose Sicilian lemon another day. But the execution [00:21:30] was brilliant. It wasn’t just the idea. Yeah, plenty of people have had the idea. Yeah, but the execution [00:21:35] of the taste. Because one thing about taste with toothpaste is there has to be an element [00:21:40] of mint in it. Whatever the flavour is like, if your flavour is cinnamon, it has to be cinnamon. [00:21:45]

Shameek Popat: Exactly. So that’s what we’ve done. We’ve actually created.

Payman Langroudi: What flavours [00:21:50] are mint?

Shameek Popat: Mint? Yeah, yeah. It’s English, white milk.

Payman Langroudi: English, English.

Shameek Popat: English wild mint. Yes, [00:21:55] absolutely. I thought you were the one.

Payman Langroudi: I thought was going to give me something.

Shameek Popat: Else. No no no no. Oh, [00:22:00] I should have bought the cinnamon one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

[BOTH]: Have you got one? Yeah.

Shameek Popat: I’ll send it to you.

[BOTH]: I’ll send it to you.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:22:05] So did you not worry about cinnamon being, um, sensitive people? Being, uh, allergic to cinnamon? [00:22:10] Because I wanted to do that, and, and and the the manufacturer said be [00:22:15] careful.

Shameek Popat: You know. So here’s the funny story. The whole thing started [00:22:20] is because I wanted a cinnamon floss.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: You know, I whenever I go to the [00:22:25] US, I used to pick up the big Red and the Cinnamon Man. I love [00:22:30] cinnamon stuff, so I know I wanted to do things that [00:22:35] you want. I like that I can put my heart and soul into it. [00:22:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Body shop used to do the mint toothpaste. Delicious, [00:22:45] delicious toothpaste.

Shameek Popat: And, you know, and plus, I think, you know, there’s a whole market which, [00:22:50] actually, we still need to go for the whole Indian market. The Asian market. They love cinnamon, [00:22:55] right? Um, which is an unexplored market, really. [00:23:00] So we, you know, we want to target that as well. And then the toothpaste we created [00:23:05] is, is lovely. So I actually I’ll have a mint full morning and then cinnamon [00:23:10] for the night.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So am PM for me was would have been like much more [00:23:15] around essential oils. Um like one like the story. The brand story [00:23:20] would have been oh, this camomile essential oil puts people to sleep Like. Like a like an angel. [00:23:25] And then. So you’d have that in the evening and then in the morning, it’d be like a grapefruit. Essential oil [00:23:30] has been shown to make your brain acuity better and then wake up with, with, with with grapefruit. [00:23:35] I just think flavours and toothpaste are really. But I’ll tell you another brilliant [00:23:40] execution. High smiles, flavoured ones. Brilliant [00:23:45] execution. Brilliant execution. Yeah. We love, we love to hate. Hi Somalia.

Shameek Popat: Only [00:23:50] because they did a little gimmicky stuff and stuff and then it sort of shadowed what else they’ve done [00:23:55] actually execute.

Payman Langroudi: You have to think that. What is the product. Right. The purple toothpaste. [00:24:00] They weren’t the first to do purple toothpaste. Purple toothpaste was around for years before. [00:24:05] But the execution, the way the thing clicks, the way you put it on, the taste [00:24:10] of it, you know, the execution was strong. You can’t doubt that.

Shameek Popat: Taste [00:24:15] was okay. I have tried them and stuff, but I like them.

Payman Langroudi: I tried that, but [00:24:20] the thing is, dude, do you agree it doesn’t take a dentist to make these things?

[BOTH]: Ah, okay. [00:24:25]

Shameek Popat: So that was my other thing, right? And that was my other bugbear.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: That [00:24:30] if you look in the market just now.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Most of the toothpaste that is out there [00:24:35] is actually made by advertisers, marketers or pharmaceutical companies of it. They’re not made [00:24:40] by dentists, hygienists, periodontist who are working in the coalface, [00:24:45] who know better, who know what they want for their patients. Which [00:24:50] is why I got a team together with dentists, hygienists, therapists, periodontist. [00:24:55] You know, products don’t make a great business. People [00:25:00] do. Right? Which is why you surround yourself with some of the best people around. [00:25:05] Right. Your team is just fantastic. Thank you. Um, you know, you have a lovely team, [00:25:10] you know, not just to tell you that, but you’ve been an inspiration to everything I’ve done as well. [00:25:15] Uh, you know, the tooth angel, the smiles. I’m literally like. I think I’m just [00:25:20] following in your footsteps in a way.

[BOTH]: Be careful.

Shameek Popat: I [00:25:25] am so, you know. You know, I always just thought, you know, these these boys have done so well. [00:25:30] Um. And you guys are someone, you know, people to look up to.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice, man. That’s [00:25:35] nice to say that, but my question. Is [00:25:40] a dentist best place to make these products? So, dude, I’m a dentist. I’m a dentist, [00:25:45] and I’ve done toothpaste, so I my answer is yes. Yeah, but execution [00:25:50] wise not necessarily man. Yeah. Not necessarily. [00:25:55] No, it doesn’t matter, dude. It’s cool that the fact that that that that’s my position [00:26:00] doesn’t mean that you’ve done an incorrect thing. My point on this idea of yours [00:26:05] is it has to be a direct consumer. Has to be has to be a direct consumer. The volume just [00:26:10] is never going to be enough. Okay. You could become the top supplier to dentists [00:26:15] and wherever has to be a direct consumer approach to it. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So [00:26:20] I don’t disagree with you there. It has to be. So the question will be yeah, you just [00:26:25] got to hire the right people to get it out there. Yeah. And yeah, unfortunately for that you need some [00:26:30] decent finance backing as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So now this is where I was really going [00:26:35] to go with this question. Right. Let’s say you’ve you’ve owned a practice. Yeah. [00:26:40] And there’s people out there thinking I fancy doing toothpaste. Yeah. In fact, every [00:26:45] single dentist had that dream once. Once in a while. Right.

[BOTH]: Now I’ve [00:26:50] got it.

Shameek Popat: There’s a difference between ideas, dreams [00:26:55] and execution.

[BOTH]: Oh.

Shameek Popat: Huge. Right. The amount [00:27:00] of ideas.

[BOTH]: Ideas are.

Payman Langroudi: Cheap.

[BOTH]: Ideas are cheap.

Shameek Popat: They’re cheap. Right. Do you remember the [00:27:05] amount of times we’ve met at conferences? And somebody talked about some ideas and traded [00:27:10] ideas and stuff, and it’s been great talking about it and dreaming about it and stuff. But [00:27:15] then to put it into.

Payman Langroudi: Well or although although I used to say I used to. I used [00:27:20] to make my kids repeat that to my to me in the when they were five and three, [00:27:25] six and four. You know, I constantly used to make them repeat that phrase to me, the ideas. [00:27:30] Nothing without execution. But the world has just gone upside down. Yeah, [00:27:35] I yeah, it’s all about the idea now. It’s all about the idea. And all [00:27:40] those cats you used to sit back and say, I think I know a great idea to do this. Suddenly those guys [00:27:45] are in a totally different situation because execution is becoming much easier, [00:27:50] much, much, much easier. And it’s a real shift around where now, like, [00:27:55] if you could come up with an amazing story about whatever you’re [00:28:00] into, like in the Star Wars meets or whatever. Yeah. If this story is amazing. Yeah, [00:28:05] you could make that movie The day after tomorrow. Like pay some subscription to Sora or whatever. You [00:28:10] know, you could you could get it done for less than the price of a 10,000 tube of toothpaste. Yeah. [00:28:15] So ideas become everything. That’s wonderful. It’s a wonderful [00:28:20] switch.

Shameek Popat: It’s going to be exciting. Uh, with AI and obviously, you know, [00:28:25] we all use ChatGPT. And it’s been it’s been it’s been a fantastic tool. Um, I have to admit, but [00:28:30] I do still think what AI lacks [00:28:35] is connectivity. Relationship, emotion. [00:28:40] All of that is not there yet. Yeah. [00:28:45] And I think that’s why we’re still going to be, uh, [00:28:50] viable or we’re still going to be relevant. Because humans. [00:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Look, man, I mean, I’m sure our grandparents [00:29:00] were sitting there when the first TV came out and said, just change everything. And it did. [00:29:05] It did changed everything. But humans still wanted to break bread. You know, there [00:29:10] are some there are some basics, right? That will never [00:29:15] change.

Shameek Popat: No. But soon, as soon as they create AI with emotion, we’re [00:29:20] screwed.

Payman Langroudi: I look like I said to my son, I wouldn’t be surprised if his [00:29:25] his son was in love with an AI. With an with a robot. Yeah, like. Well, you [00:29:30] know, it could easily happen.

Shameek Popat: It can easily.

Payman Langroudi: Happen. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Like I would say, as soon as emotion comes into [00:29:35] it. Right. I think that’s a really, really. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you do mouth spray?

Shameek Popat: Because. [00:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: Were you thinking.

Shameek Popat: The thinking behind that [00:29:45] was I wanted something. Yeah, thunk. Like, I wanted a bougie thing that everyone can carry. [00:29:50] Males and females in their pockets. Handbags and something that actually [00:29:55] come. Yeah. It’s new, so you just have to. Yeah. Something [00:30:00] that actually combated bad breath. Not just mask it. So it’s got sodium chloride in it. [00:30:05] So it eliminates VOCs. Plus it’s got xylitol. Potassium nitrate.

Payman Langroudi: Surprisingly [00:30:10] good taste. Like almost doesn’t like it.

Shameek Popat: Take that. Neutral.

Payman Langroudi: More [00:30:15] neutral. I’m surprised. I thought I’d hate that, but actually, that’s suddenly become my favourite thing. [00:30:20]

Shameek Popat: That’s the amount of people that are using that is is quite, quite, quite a lot, actually. [00:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s called connotations, isn’t it? Of 70s guys. Whatever. Yeah. [00:30:30]

Shameek Popat: But it needs a revival, not the other. Hate I have is [00:30:35] if someone’s chewing chewing gum and talking to me. Me too. Oh my God. It [00:30:40] irritates me. Yeah. Um, so Bret sprays so much better that way.

Payman Langroudi: And these. [00:30:45] This floss is made of what?

Shameek Popat: It’s actually made from recycled water bottles. Huh. [00:30:50] So it’s a four headed razor floss. What? Four headed razor floss?

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:30:55] means.

Shameek Popat: What?

Payman Langroudi: It’s like braided. Kind of. Yeah, yeah.

Shameek Popat: Uh, foreheads and twined together. Which is what makes [00:31:00] it so thick.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Shameek Popat: Um. And, uh, made from recycled water bottles [00:31:05] coated with xylitol and hydroxyapatite and full of flavour. And I am [00:31:10] really, really kicking myself. Not bringing you the cinnamon one, because that is my favourite. [00:31:15] But you know what?

Payman Langroudi: What can I ask? Can I ask you a quick question? Did you find a manufacturer that was already doing floss [00:31:20] with hydroxyapatite, or did you suggest it?

Shameek Popat: I suggested.

Payman Langroudi: It. Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So [00:31:25] these. Those things are. Yeah. Those things are.

Payman Langroudi: Doing things that other people won’t [00:31:30] do. You know that. That’s what keeps you competitive advantage. You know, like executing on that. [00:31:35] Yeah. Very easy. Dude, you had to walk into IDs and go straight to the career [00:31:40] thing and say, stick my logo on these seven things. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But [00:31:45] not a good idea. Not a good idea if you’re small. Yeah. If you’re small, you’ve got to make some breakthroughs. You [00:31:50] know, like, you know, people fool themselves, right? They say, oh, this guy is wearing a Burberry [00:31:55] t shirt, and this other guy is wearing an Armani t shirt, and all these t shirts are made in the same place. There’s [00:32:00] different logos. They forget. Yeah. Burberry did something like spectacular. [00:32:05] Yeah. In the 50s, whatever it was with women, English women in London or 60, whatever it was. And Armani [00:32:10] did something spectacular in his day. Now that they’ve done these amazing things and defined [00:32:15] culture, now they can stick their logo on a t shirt. And for that to be a meaningful thing. Yeah, [00:32:20] me and you can’t, you know, until we make a change, unless we [00:32:25] do something, you know, then your logo on a t shirt might be worth something. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So. But that’s [00:32:30] the thing. So when we were doing this, you know, a lot of research, a lot of reading [00:32:35] are trying to find, I did for the toothpaste. I did an Excel spreadsheet of [00:32:40] every toothpaste ingredient out there. Yeah. To then create what would be the [00:32:45] perfect ingredients for me?

Payman Langroudi: Is it free of all the baddies?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So it’s got no SLS, [00:32:50] no BPA, no titanium dioxide, no artificial sweeteners.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:32:55] Did you not find that without. It’s just not pleasing.

Shameek Popat: No. It’s good. So try it. I want you to try it. [00:33:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sodium coke herself. Yeah, it’s just getting it. [00:33:05] All right.

Payman Langroudi: I find it non pleasing, you know.

Shameek Popat: Trust me.

Payman Langroudi: Try it. I [00:33:10] will.

Shameek Popat: Don’t get me wrong. It’s not going to be as good as having SLS.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I found is.

Shameek Popat: When it’s. [00:33:15]

Payman Langroudi: Good enough, when you say, try it. Yeah. Like I. I’ve got people upstairs, you know, who will not use enlightened [00:33:20] toothpaste, you know, because it’s not minty enough. Yeah. You know, [00:33:25] our toothpaste aren’t on purpose. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: You made it mild.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The thing was called serum. Right. [00:33:30] So. And people were putting it in the bleaching tray and putting it in for an hour at a time. It couldn’t be too [00:33:35] minty. Yeah. So ours aren’t. But, you know, we’re not using our teeth. And what I’m saying [00:33:40] is different people have totally different, like, taste when it comes to. Right? Right. What they want from a toothpaste. [00:33:45]

Shameek Popat: You can’t please everyone.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t.

Shameek Popat: You can’t please everyone. So you know I [00:33:50] trust me. I spent a lot of money, um, trying [00:33:55] out loads of different versions and stuff to to find the one that we actually eventually [00:34:00] thought. Yes, this is it. Um, I’m actually making a new one now. At the moment. [00:34:05] Not without fluoride. Me too. Oh, nice. Yeah. Excellent. [00:34:10] So it’s got some super cool ingredients. But I’m having a nightmare with the flavour [00:34:15] at the moment. So we’re we’re going for, like, an apple mint. Um, [00:34:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. So let’s talk about money. Where [00:34:25] did you get the money to do all this?

Shameek Popat: Um, you know what? [00:34:30] It was not as difficult as I thought it would be, because [00:34:35] obviously I put money in myself. I’d sold my practice, so I had some money. [00:34:40] Um, and then, you know, just talk to friends, actually, and, you know, [00:34:45] pitch the idea that a pitch deck. And then suddenly. Yeah, a lot of people just said. [00:34:50] Yeah, absolutely. And then obviously did it through an sis. Uh, so, [00:34:55] you know, 50% of their investment is just straight away giving back to them through a tax rebate. [00:35:00] So their risk goes down and say, let’s touch wood. Doesn’t [00:35:05] but say the whole thing goes tits up. The next 5,045% will then be [00:35:10] written off as well. So their risk in the end is not a huge amount. Otherwise I wouldn’t have done it because these [00:35:15] are my friends.

Payman Langroudi: Um, is that so?

Shameek Popat: It would be, uh, 50, [00:35:20] 45? About 20%. That’s good. Yeah. So probably a good night [00:35:25] out in London.

Payman Langroudi: So were you basically selling that size thing more than [00:35:30] the opportunity itself to people who didn’t know what it was?

Shameek Popat: No, they all knew what it was. [00:35:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because they were all dentists, hygienists. They’re all they’re all, uh, [00:35:40] you know, Dick Andrew, Chandra Powell, Sam Jatoi, Arnie [00:35:45] Seaborn.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Don Shilpa, Andy [00:35:50] Acton. So we’ve got a really good team.

Payman Langroudi: Feel the weight of it.

Shameek Popat: Oh my gosh, [00:35:55] big time. I still do it. I still feel the weight.

Payman Langroudi: Look it’s important I’ve never [00:36:00] really had an investor but it’s really important if you have investors that you bear in mind you’re [00:36:05] spending other people’s money, man. Spending other people’s money is difficult. No, it’s difficult when it’s your own money. [00:36:10] You can sort of make a bet on something and feel good. Yeah. So by just [00:36:15] by investing in you, they’re saying, listen, we’re up for your bets. Yeah. But what’s the structure? Do these [00:36:20] any of these guys, are they on the board or like, do you have to discuss. Do you have to get permission from Nissan every [00:36:25] time you want to do something?

Shameek Popat: No, no not really. They’re they’re they’re they’re all they’re all so chill. They’re all so [00:36:30] good. Um, and you know, I think they trust in the [00:36:35] product. They trust with what we’re doing. Um, you know, who knows? [00:36:40] But hopefully, fingers crossed at the moment. So far, so good.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:36:45] is it profitable?

Shameek Popat: Not at the moment. We’ve only been going [00:36:50] for a year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: It’s literally, you know, launched, like, properly, [00:36:55] uh, last time at the industry Showcase. Really?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:37:00] there’s nothing I was going to get to do. Yeah, I know, I know the reasons why you did this. Yeah, because, you know, you sold [00:37:05] your practice, you know? But for someone else who hasn’t yet opened a practice, or maybe [00:37:10] from number one to number two or number two to number three, or whichever way, who fancies [00:37:15] doing something like this? Yeah, I don’t I’ve never owned a practice, so you correct me. Right. But [00:37:20] let’s say I’ve got a quarter of £1 million. If I put that into a practice, I can buy myself [00:37:25] £1 million practice or whatever. Yeah, that million pound practice the following year [00:37:30] might give me my quarter of a million back, or maybe just less or whatever. Yeah. Or [00:37:35] two years.

Shameek Popat: Wishful thinking.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. It’s harder than okay. No, but are you saying what? [00:37:40] Whether you should buy a practice or do this? Yeah. Buy a practice? Yeah, yeah. No brainer at all. [00:37:45] No brainer at all.

Payman Langroudi: Now I understand why you did this. Yeah, because sometimes you want to do something [00:37:50] fun, and sometimes you want to shoot for the moon. Yeah. Like, you know, if this goes [00:37:55] right, you could buy fly a helicopter. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So I understand why you do it. [00:38:00] Understand why you do it. But as advice to others. People thinking, oh, products are so, so [00:38:05] fashionable these days.

Shameek Popat: No, no, no, I agree with that. It’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:38:10] tough. Tougher than you imagined.

Shameek Popat: A lot tougher than I imagined. Don’t get me wrong, I [00:38:15] had a lot of fun doing it. You know, the meetings with branding, [00:38:20] website development, designing. Oh, my God, I felt [00:38:25] alive. And I’m doing it all over again as well, so I feel alive. So all that part is amazing. [00:38:30] You know, and I loved it. And, you know, uh, your, your creative [00:38:35] juices flow and you don’t sleep at night because you’ve got hundreds [00:38:40] of ideas coming in and staff. Um, so that’s all fun. But then once it’s all of [00:38:45] that’s done, and then you actually have to get the product out there and get people buying [00:38:50] it. It is tough. It’s tough. Plus also the margins on these are [00:38:55] quite small. Right. So it doesn’t make sense.

Payman Langroudi: How much.

Shameek Popat: Is that? It’s, uh, £31. [00:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: 99 to the consumer.

Shameek Popat: Consumer?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And the dentist.

Shameek Popat: The dentist. Buy at a 30% [00:39:05] discount. So that’s their margin, 30%. But they can obviously put the prices up a little bit. That’s [00:39:10] a suggested RRP. Um, because obviously if you buy it from our website, our ecommerce [00:39:15] store and stuff, they’ll pay a delivery charge as well and stuff. So you’ve got that little bit of leeway as well.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:20] interesting because, you know, when we did the serum, it was [00:39:25] way back then. You couldn’t get ingredients like hydroxyapatite weren’t, you [00:39:30] know. Yeah. There was one manufacturer. I found one. Yeah. And, um, I had to [00:39:35] introduce that manufacturer to the toothpaste. Uh, factory? [00:39:40] Yeah. There was no other choice. Yeah, and he was charging a lot. Yeah. Bovine as well. And [00:39:45] so when the price of the product had to be £12 or something. [00:39:50] And I remember thinking £12 for toothpaste, man. Like, [00:39:55] who’s gonna buy it? Yeah. And I was looking in boots last [00:40:00] week. There’s a £25 Colgate product now £25. Yeah. [00:40:05] Yeah. So the category has got to that. Like, you know there’s moon. There’s um [00:40:10] obviously hi smile. The categories got itself.

Shameek Popat: Up to that. Yeah you’re right. There [00:40:15] are so many out there.

Payman Langroudi: But that said that said, it’s nowhere near mature. Yeah. [00:40:20] Like, it’s not like hair or skin or lips even. Yeah. Lips. I [00:40:25] my my daughter came to me and said, oh, can I have this lip gloss. Lip, lip. Not [00:40:30] not not makeup. What’s it called?

Shameek Popat: The lip gloss.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Not makeup. Just something [00:40:35] that makes hydrates your lips. Right. Can I have this lip gloss? Yeah. So. Sure. Push [00:40:40] the button. 1499 for lip gloss. Yeah. Believe me, I can believe it. Yeah. [00:40:45] And she. She was thinking nothing of it. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So, you know what the comparison I do [00:40:50] put here is, is because people are used to spending 2.99 [00:40:55] for a toothpaste. It’s like people are used to NHS dentistry, [00:41:00] right? That set the benchmark. So which is why [00:41:05] private dentistry suddenly becomes looks so much more expensive. The same with these things, even though the products [00:41:10] are so much better with my. My ingredients cost more than what [00:41:15] most toothpastes are selling for out there cost you the cost of [00:41:20] that.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. It’s not, it’s not.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. I get them from Italy. They’re the highest [00:41:25] grade hydroxyapatite that you can get. Um, really, [00:41:30] really good, good product. Uh, and it’s tough trying to. And then the new one is going to [00:41:35] be even more expensive because of the ingredients I’m using in it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:41:40] is that are you getting resistance on price?

Shameek Popat: Not [00:41:45] as much, because at the moment we focus. Ah. You see, my thing [00:41:50] was and this is where I’m slightly changing my mindset a little bit was I [00:41:55] thought dentists and hygienists and therapists would be [00:42:00] our salespeople, really, because I wanted to empower them to be able to [00:42:05] sell products that are good for their patients. Their practice [00:42:10] makes a little bit of money and the fact that they’ll have a tooth. Angel zero waste box patients [00:42:15] can come in and recycle everything and buy new products. So it’s a circular economy [00:42:20] happening everywhere. So everyone win win. So we concentrated on that first, [00:42:25] um, before we went out to the general public. And I thought once they get the word out there that this is a good product, [00:42:30] we thought organic. Yeah, it’d be like an organic flow happening. [00:42:35] Um, but yeah, but, you know, don’t get me wrong, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Been you changed your mind now.

Shameek Popat: And I have changed my mind a little [00:42:40] bit. Um, because of seeing what other [00:42:45] brands are doing, you know, and how their trajectory has gone because they’ve gone direct consumer. [00:42:50] But again, they, you know, they must have had lots of backing because it’s all on advertising.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the direct to [00:42:55] consumer is a massive, bigger nightmare. Yeah, bigger. Much bigger nightmare than than [00:43:00] the dentistry. Much bigger. Yeah, I can imagine. But my, my my point to you [00:43:05] was you’ve put yourself in that nightmare situation of having to go direct consumer. That was [00:43:10] what I was saying about it. But hey go direct consumer. Yeah. Because, you know, you might work. [00:43:15] I’m not standing here telling you.

Shameek Popat: To not do it. So I think the next one we [00:43:20] will. Because obviously it’s a non fluoride one.

Payman Langroudi: By [00:43:25] the way when I asked you the question about is there price. Objection. Right. Is is price.

Shameek Popat: Yes. [00:43:30] Of course there will be.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t put yourself in the luxury category without price. Objection.

Shameek Popat: No, no [00:43:35] you can’t. Absolutely. So there is.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously it’s part of the luxury category. Did you hear that bit with [00:43:40] a guy from Hermes where he goes, oh, home is very expensive. And he goes, no, it’s [00:43:45] costly. He goes, what’s the difference? And he [00:43:50] goes, when you spend the time to. To do it, do things properly that costs. [00:43:55] But expensive is where it’s something expensive. Something you’ve paid money for, something that something you paid [00:44:00] money for but didn’t deliver. Yeah. Different things. I love that, actually. [00:44:05]

Shameek Popat: I love that. I love the accent.

Payman Langroudi: My kids are in French school. French [00:44:10] school? Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Oh, yeah. How’s that?

Payman Langroudi: My wife’s Lebanese.

Shameek Popat: Oh. [00:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: She was. She was in the same school. You know, the Lisa is very. The [00:44:20] Lisa in South Kenya is very, like, good. It’s the best Lisa outside France, right? Okay. [00:44:25] Yeah. But but look that question. Right. I think about brands [00:44:30] sometimes. Yeah. Like brands outside our area. Like [00:44:35] brands that that I think of it in two different ways. One is stuff I [00:44:40] adore. Stuff I love. Yeah. There isn’t much like, uh, AirPods. Yeah. [00:44:45] You know, I yeah, I adore that outside of phone, [00:44:50] outside of software stuff like, you know, Instagram. That doesn’t count, right? There [00:44:55] isn’t much in products that I adore. But [00:45:00] brands that I’m really impressed by. Yeah. I [00:45:05] mean the one, the one that in the end is like, for me, the most [00:45:10] impressive brand.

Shameek Popat: Evian Avion. [00:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s extraordinary if you if I put a three, 4 or 5 bottles [00:45:20] of water in front of you. So they’re all the same price. Pick one. Which one will you pick? Like [00:45:25] you’re going to you’re going to pick the outside of the Fiji luxury like outside of that. But [00:45:30] Evian right. It’s water dude. It’s water. Yeah. And yet they’ve they’ve I’ve [00:45:35] got no idea whether it’s better for you water or taste you in the Pepsi Challenge. [00:45:40] You definitely mess it up right there between Evian and Highland Spring. You wouldn’t be able to tell the [00:45:45] difference, right?

Shameek Popat: Marketing. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what? Like what? Genius is it? Yeah, that takes [00:45:50] water.

Shameek Popat: And makes.

Payman Langroudi: Sense and makes it so cool. It’s just amazing. It [00:45:55] blows me away every time. And by the way, I do like the, like I would buy. I buy it as long as I pay more for living [00:46:00] by mistake. Yeah. Um, but belts, [00:46:05] you know, like Hermes, you know, they’ve managed to make a piece of leather like [00:46:10] that. Expensive. I, I don’t buy that stuff. Yeah, but but I, I do [00:46:15] like.

Shameek Popat: Figure.

Payman Langroudi: It. Yeah. I think bloody hell. Well done. And then as far as execution [00:46:20] in marketing Red bull. I mean, I don’t like the product. [00:46:25] I like it on the one once a year where I need it. Right. But but the [00:46:30] execution.

Shameek Popat: But they were so clever the way.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the product doesn’t feature in any of the [00:46:35] content at all. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: No no no, no. It’s beautiful. They were clever with how they, you know, the whole story behind [00:46:40] it. Yeah. The Red bull and stuff. They went with the skateboarders, the, uh, Snowboarders [00:46:45] and the mountain bikers. And you know, all the super [00:46:50] cool fringe sports. But they’re such a huge cult following and some things. Yeah. [00:46:55] And they marketed it through them. And that just worked. And, you know. Yeah, it gives you wings. [00:47:00] Yeah. Love it. Great tagline.

Payman Langroudi: And in that category food and beverage a nightmare category [00:47:05] to to like break. Coca-cola. Oh a can one third the size four times [00:47:10] the price of whatever it was that actually made you high. Yeah. And you know, like that. [00:47:15] That’s crazy. What they managed to pull off. Right.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. That’s so clever, isn’t it? You [00:47:20] know, marketing is just such a an amazing feel. You know, you get the right. [00:47:25] I mean, it just comes back to the ideas and stuff. And now whether I will change that [00:47:30] and replace these clever people with ideas and stuff because, you know, [00:47:35] there’s so, you know, you put it into ChatGPT for some ideas and stuff and you’ll get pages [00:47:40] of it. And some of it is like, oh shit, I really like that tagline. Yeah, that’s really, really good. [00:47:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you know, it comes back to then once the whole planet is fully on [00:47:50] it, then it’s just it’s like the internet itself. It’s like you’ve [00:47:55] got much more scope for doing things and way more competition. [00:48:00] Way, way more competition than anyone from a bedroom can start a [00:48:05] brand. Yeah, like they could they could do it with, like a website in one day, an app [00:48:10] in two days here, if you remember what it used to take to make it. App. Right. Um, [00:48:15] product. They could drop ship logos, names, all [00:48:20] that stuff is so doable overnight. You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s like, did you hear the vintage story? [00:48:25] No. You’re not selling.

Payman Langroudi: When you sell your clothes.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah. That’s that. I [00:48:30] think it started with a girl who was moving and she didn’t have wardrobe space in her new place, [00:48:35] uh, Lithuania or somewhere like that. I can’t remember where she’s from. Um, [00:48:40] and she didn’t have a wardrobe space, So she thought quite a few clothes. And you know, she [00:48:45] had a good fashion sense and stuff. Um, maybe I’ll just sell them, uh, online and stuff. And she [00:48:50] was at a party, and she met a tech guy there that she got on with and stuff, and she pitched the [00:48:55] idea saying, oh, can you just do a little website for me to sell these clothes? And [00:49:00] the guy goes, yeah, absolutely. And stuff. And, you know, they went around saying, well, would you buy these clothes and stuff? And people said, [00:49:05] yes. Set up a website. Yeah. I think within two weeks she sold out. And [00:49:10] then the whole thing snowballed from that. And I think it’s a $4 billion [00:49:15] company now.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, was, you know, do you know Zeba from Ru [00:49:20] Dental?

Shameek Popat: Uh, yes, I’ve heard I obviously I know ru Dental. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Because Richard Richard works there doesn’t he used to be Richard feeling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So maybe, [00:49:30] um, but, you know, in Cardiff. Um. Anyway ru Dental Zabrze. [00:49:35] Um, dad and uncle have, like, I don’t know [00:49:40] whether it’s like, it’s one of the biggest, um, chains of, um, care [00:49:45] homes in Europe.

Shameek Popat: Oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: Like, they went from 600 [00:49:50] to 1000 200 in 1 deal. You know, like a huge, huge, [00:49:55] huge business. And. But she was telling me that, you know, they all used to live in the same flat above the [00:50:00] the shop, the dry cleaner or whatever. Yeah. Um, but [00:50:05] then I was telling someone else. That’s right. And he said, well, yeah, every story starts with [00:50:10] a nothing situation unless it’s some sort of inheritance. Right. [00:50:15] Every single story starts, you know, Steve Jobs was in his garage playing. [00:50:20] It’s an interesting thing, isn’t it?

Shameek Popat: We all have a story, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:50:25]

Shameek Popat: Payman and sham started in a single surgery industry. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: We’ll talk about disruptive later. Yeah. [00:50:35] Where were you born?

Shameek Popat: I was born in Kampala, Uganda. Oh, Really? [00:50:40]

Payman Langroudi: Master race.

Shameek Popat: And master.

Payman Langroudi: Race?

Shameek Popat: Oh, [00:50:45] no. What were you saying? You know, I. Mean. [00:50:50] Yeah. Yeah. So the whole Idi Amin thing happened, and, [00:50:55] um, obviously we all. We had, like, a month to leave, you [00:51:00] know? Um, we had a thriving business house, everything kind of tea state. We [00:51:05] had a tea state estate.

Payman Langroudi: As in land. The tea plantation we had in Iran, too.

Shameek Popat: What did [00:51:10] you see? Amazing.

Shameek Popat: Um, and then most [00:51:15] of the family, uh, because obviously, uh, the Ugandan Asians, [00:51:20] they were all bought by the British to build the railways and stuff. So they all had British overseas passports. [00:51:25] So most of our family came to the UK. Uh, but the family just thought [00:51:30] that we should have some presence in India. So my father, being the eldest brother, got sent to [00:51:35] India, and my brother was born in India, and I was only a baby. So I spent [00:51:40] my childhood in Gujarat. Baroda, Gujarat. Uh, so I grew up [00:51:45] there.

Payman Langroudi: To what.

Shameek Popat: Age?

Shameek Popat: Until the age of 13.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Shameek Popat: And then, you know, I [00:51:50] was actually literally just telling this story the other day. I think this is probably my biggest [00:51:55] sliding door moment, I think. Um, [00:52:00] we went to Dehradun. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Dehradun in India. It’s [00:52:05] up in the north and it has like these amazing private schools there. Uh, [00:52:10] they’re like Harrow Eton type.

Shameek Popat: Things.

Shameek Popat: And stuff, you know. And so we went [00:52:15] to see it, and it’s the first time I’ve been that high, and I was above clouds and I was like, awed by it. The [00:52:20] school was amazing. So the choice was between us going there or coming to [00:52:25] the UK for education for the next. Because look in India, right. It’s [00:52:30] survival of the fittest. There’s like 60 people in a class. And you know, [00:52:35] I was probably a medium student there and stuff. Then, you know, they had [00:52:40] to choose. They said, oh, we can’t leave you to study there and stuff. We want you either to send you there or [00:52:45] go to the UK. And then we chose UK in the end because, you know, everyone was family was here when [00:52:50] you were in India and stuff. Studying in the UK was also like a great [00:52:55] thing, something unusual. Status and my cousins, cousins, brothers were all here who we [00:53:00] were really great friends with. Um, so we thought, okay, so um, we got [00:53:05] sent to Stockport, Manchester to live with my uncle and [00:53:10] aunt.

Payman Langroudi: What were your parents still in India?

Shameek Popat: Still India? Because we had we had a, um, a factory [00:53:15] there. Yeah. Um, bizarrely, actually making plastic bags for [00:53:20] fertiliser.

Payman Langroudi: Were they quite well to do in India?

Shameek Popat: Um, they [00:53:25] were, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The Indian.

Shameek Popat: Standard.

Shameek Popat: Indian standard. They were. We had a good life.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So [00:53:30] you came to Stockport.

Shameek Popat: Stockport? Yeah. So I went to Stockport Grammar And [00:53:35] I lived with my uncle and aunt who were, you know, they were pretty young as well. They [00:53:40] were in their 30s. So it was just like amazing that they took these two boys from India. And, [00:53:45] um, they didn’t have kids at that point themselves. Um, so they’re like my second parents, [00:53:50] and I owe a lot to them. Uh, and he’s he he was a dentist, hence [00:53:55] the influence. So that’s how I and my brother became dentists, [00:54:00] because we saw that he enjoyed his job. He had a good life. [00:54:05] Um, and, you know, at that stage, you probably heard [00:54:10] this from others. You literally had 3 or 4 choices. You either were going to become a doctor, [00:54:15] dentist, uh, accountant or uh, possibly, uh, [00:54:20] law. There were secondary ones like, you know, you could do pharmacy or or. Yeah. [00:54:25] That’s it. But literally to to us the choice was literally the choice was [00:54:30] medicine, dentistry, accountancy.

Payman Langroudi: Your daughters must have [00:54:35] come to you. Or. Well, there was a time where you could have talked to them.

Shameek Popat: Influence?

Payman Langroudi: No. Did [00:54:40] you say anything to them?

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know what? Did you tell them to become dentists?

Shameek Popat: No, no. So [00:54:45] while I didn’t encourage or discourage it. None of them. I have three kids. [00:54:50] I have twin girls and a boy. And none of them wanted. None of them [00:54:55] wanted to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel like. Did you feel like you failed somehow? No.

Shameek Popat: No I didn’t. [00:55:00] Actually, I really didn’t. Um, I’d rather they do something that they’re happy with [00:55:05] that they want to do. And dentistry is hard. So I wasn’t that [00:55:10] displeased.

Payman Langroudi: They didn’t know that hard, man.

Shameek Popat: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: I think it is [00:55:15] hard. But somehow.

Shameek Popat: I think it’s more difficult now than when it was when we did.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Shameek Popat: Maybe. [00:55:20] All right.

Payman Langroudi: So what did your kids end up studying and doing?

Shameek Popat: All three of them are doing economics. [00:55:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: They’re all doing economics. Oh, I.

Payman Langroudi: See.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Um, [00:55:30] one of them at the moment is in Madrid doing a year out.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. [00:55:35]

Shameek Popat: So we got to go and pick her up next week. Actually, she’s just had the time of her life. [00:55:40] The other one just finished. She just did her final exams and she’s already got a job [00:55:45] with Deloitte starting from September. Such an internship with them. And they’ve offered [00:55:50] it. And my son has just started first year. Well, Birmingham. So [00:55:55] I’ve got two in Birmingham, one in Nottingham.

Payman Langroudi: And Empty Nest now.

Shameek Popat: So yeah. [00:56:00] Yeah it’s it’s it’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not redefining [00:56:05] yourself. Right. You know that anymore.

Shameek Popat: Right. But you know what. What’s been what’s been quite funny [00:56:10] and stuff. I’m actually finding that my nice my wife is so much nicer to me now that we don’t have the kids. [00:56:15] She’s like, looking after me so much better. We were just telling the [00:56:20] kids you guys were the problems, right? This is why we were. No, you know, it was. She was always bad [00:56:25] cop. I’m good cop. So. Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Me too, me too. Um. [00:56:30] Three kids is an achievement that’s difficult. Difficult in Britain.

Shameek Popat: Um, [00:56:35] well, yeah, we had twins, so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Even harder was.

Payman Langroudi: Even.

Shameek Popat: Harder. Yeah. Which is [00:56:40] why when we had our son, uh, we was like, oh, what are these parents with single child complaining about? This is so [00:56:45] easy.

Payman Langroudi: Take me back to the story, then. Okay.

Shameek Popat: Oh, yeah. Going back.

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah, [00:56:50] we both became dentists.

Shameek Popat: We both became dentists. Did you study, um, at Guy’s Hospital?

Payman Langroudi: Where did he study [00:56:55] things?

Shameek Popat: This is when they were separate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is he older than you?

Shameek Popat: He’s younger than me. Younger, [00:57:00] though. Yeah. Most people think he’s older than me. He’s. He’s an orthodontist. [00:57:05] Okay, so he’s an orthodontist. Um, but the funny thing was, while [00:57:10] my brother and I both became dentists, my uncle, who [00:57:15] had two sons who are like, we’re very close to you as well. And, you know, because we sort of grew [00:57:20] up, we were doing their nappies and looking after them, and they’re like great friends of ours, as well as [00:57:25] cousin brothers. They wanted nothing to do with dentistry. Once become a pilot [00:57:30] with British Airways and the others are an actuary with Deloitte.

Payman Langroudi: Oh great job. [00:57:35] So my my brother wants to become an actuary. My parents made him become a doctor. He still complains about [00:57:40] it. He still complains. So go tell me about your dental school experience. Were you the life of the [00:57:45] party, or was this a. Is this a later incarnation of.

Shameek Popat: Oh, you know what? I [00:57:50] was always. Yeah, I was always into fun. So. Yeah, I was always, always into trouble. [00:57:55] Um, yeah. I used to have to go every week to see the vice principal to make sure [00:58:00] that I turned up. Um, no, I was.

Payman Langroudi: Were you with Nissan? Yes. [00:58:05] Anyone else I knew?

Shameek Popat: Um, who else would you know?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, my brother around that time was [00:58:10] in Geist, but as a medic.

Shameek Popat: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Where were you?

Shameek Popat: 1993?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:58:15] he left in 94.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So, um. Great crowd, you know? [00:58:20] Have you Banerjee? Of course. Yeah. So Abhi was with me.

Payman Langroudi: As a student.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, we [00:58:25] were together.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Shameek Popat: No, no no, no. We always we always joke about it. We were just reminiscing [00:58:30] about it all at the industry showcase, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Or have we never left? He stayed [00:58:35] on and all day long.

Shameek Popat: But you know what? We always knew he was. He was.

Payman Langroudi: What was? He was a very [00:58:40] clever guy.

Shameek Popat: Very clever. You always knew he was going to be marked for greatness. Uh, [00:58:45] always, always dedicated, always the top. But also [00:58:50] like to have fun, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Very kind. Very kind guy. Yeah. I really like.

Shameek Popat: Having. No, no, he’s a really, really cool guy. [00:58:55]

Payman Langroudi: I.

Shameek Popat: Really like. So we had fun. Um, I was always in trouble. [00:59:00] But did you see the game was. Yeah, I always passed. [00:59:05] Um. Did enough. Did enough to pass. Um. Probably [00:59:10] wasn’t the best student. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough, man. It’s tough for you to grow up.

Shameek Popat: Enjoy your mindset. [00:59:15] Change a lot later.

Payman Langroudi: Just quickly. Did your parents [00:59:20] never come to the UK?

Shameek Popat: No. No. So they would come to visit? Obviously.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but they never came.

Shameek Popat: And then they came because [00:59:25] they missed us too much, so they sold everything.

Payman Langroudi: Were you already university by this?

Shameek Popat: So literally that’s what happened. So they [00:59:30] came to Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Shameek Popat: You left and I left. So [00:59:35] they got some time with my brother, but not with me. But then they obviously followed [00:59:40] us down to London as well.

Payman Langroudi: And your brother’s not involved in the dental world and the way that you [00:59:45] are or is he.

Shameek Popat: No not not not in because. Well, it’s orthodontists [00:59:50] are a different breed. They have their own thing. Right. They, they don’t really socialise with the general dentists. Um, [00:59:55] so they have their own thing. Um, and my brother is quite different to me. [01:00:00]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, yeah.

Shameek Popat: It’s just that way. Yeah. He’s, he’s a lot more serious. Um, [01:00:05] but a really cool guy as well. And. Yeah, we’re quite close.

Payman Langroudi: And did you think you were going to open [01:00:10] a practice always, like, was that like, in your head from the beginning?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, I think that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:00:15] what everyone did.

Shameek Popat: That’s what everyone did. Yeah. It was just expected. It was just trying to find the right practice. And [01:00:20] the right practice in the right area came up and [01:00:25] it was just fate. And, you know, I bought the practice. I bought a [01:00:30] house there. I mean, those early years, you know. Now you don’t think about it. Uh. [01:00:35] Um. Because now you think about it. How did I manage it? All right. [01:00:40] Because in those early years, I bought this new practice, [01:00:45] you know, which was a, like, a rundown two surgery practice, but in a beautiful [01:00:50] area. But it was a Chorleywood, Chorleywood white middle class, [01:00:55] by the way. Chorleywood was the happiest village in the UK. Probably because of the smiles I created. [01:01:00] I joke about that. Um, I bought that, uh, practice, [01:01:05] um, which was, I think, uh, January 2002. Then, [01:01:10] uh, we found out we were expecting twins, so we thought we [01:01:15] were in a beautiful little, uh, three bedroom semi-detached place on the river in Croxley, which [01:01:20] was beautiful, but we thought we needed something bigger. So I bought a house, so then. But it needed to [01:01:25] be redone. Then we bought a second practice in 2003. So I had two [01:01:30] practices a new house, expecting twins, and then my wife felt [01:01:35] quite ill having the babies and stuff, and I was doing it all. And [01:01:40] I remember once, you know, going to because and the twins were eight weeks early, so they were in the neonatal [01:01:45] unit. So I still remember doing a hard day’s work driving [01:01:50] to the UCL hospital, and I had to stop on the M1 layby just just to [01:01:55] sleep because I hadn’t slept much at all. Yeah. Doing it all. Um, [01:02:00] but in those days, you just got on with it. You’re like, you know, you were young, [01:02:05] full of energy, and you thought that was the norm. It was. It was a norm. [01:02:10] And it is. But now I think I would find it so much more difficult.

Payman Langroudi: To pull it off now. But but but you see [01:02:15] them now. I mean, you see, I don’t know, Simon. Uh, they’re doing all the things they’re doing. [01:02:20] And there’s young children. Yeah. And it makes you forget. You forget what it is. But then. But then I think you’ll agree [01:02:25] with me. As they get older, the problems are different as well, right? You’ve got different things to worry about. Still [01:02:30] worried. Right?

Shameek Popat: No, absolutely. You know, it never gets easier. No. Each year, I always tell this [01:02:35] story that one of the best nights of my life is [01:02:40] New Year’s Eve. Because we have fun, family, always, you know, [01:02:45] partying, having free drinks, enjoying it, celebrating the year that’s [01:02:50] gone. Mhm. And the worst day of my life is New Year’s Day because [01:02:55] it’s a new year. You get the blues. You always want to [01:03:00] set the bar higher. And you think shit I’ve got to start all over again. [01:03:05] And I got to make it better. How am I going to do it? And I get the blues really badly [01:03:10] for that first week actually, because I always want to set the bar higher.

Payman Langroudi: Nice [01:03:15] that you’re setting the bar, though. Not everyone does. No, no, I find some years I [01:03:20] do some things I don’t. Some. Some years I don’t talk about it to myself at this [01:03:25] point.

Shameek Popat: No, I was I think maybe now I’ve come to.

Payman Langroudi: A kind of a discipline.

Shameek Popat: Thing. Yeah. [01:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: To do it. Yeah. Because it’s easy, you know, you’re off. It’s easy not to think about anything and, [01:03:35] you know, watch a movie. It’s easier to do that.

Shameek Popat: It’s so much easier to do that. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s important [01:03:40] to have the discipline to, to to at least once a year.

Shameek Popat: Think I’m one of those that I [01:03:45] need. I need tasks and goals to work and do things. [01:03:50] If I don’t have it, then yeah, it’s easy to get into the lazy side and just let life drift past. [01:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist, you got into the whole choice program [01:04:00] and you know, like heading for excellence, clinical clinical excellence, right? [01:04:05] Um, was it that was the practice, one of those practices, or did you [01:04:10] have to turn it into that practice?

Shameek Popat: No, no, I had to turn it into that practice.

Payman Langroudi: What was what was it like a [01:04:15] just a regular general.

Shameek Popat: Regular, practice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so I [01:04:20] remember seeing you at all the FMC events. Rosenthal. All the time around that time. Um, [01:04:25] so.

Shameek Popat: That.

Payman Langroudi: Education was a huge.

Shameek Popat: Huge thing. Yeah, I think that’s where it all [01:04:30] changed, actually, because in my younger days and stuff and everything, I thought. [01:04:35] And that was the early days, right? I thought being a good dentist, [01:04:40] what definition of a good dentist was one that then caused pain to your patients, [01:04:45] was liked by the patients and had a full diary? Yeah, that was [01:04:50] the criteria basically, of being a good dentist, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Great. The easy low hanging fruit man. [01:04:55] Important. That’s important stuff.

Shameek Popat: Tell, tell. Then I started, you know, [01:05:00] um, thinking, you know, I got this is getting a little boring. You know, I’m better than this, and [01:05:05] I, I enjoy what I do, and I have a great patient base. And, [01:05:10] you know, you always want to educate yourself and develop yourself and stuff. And I started going to [01:05:15] these courses and you know did the Larry Rosenthal and suddenly shit. There’s more [01:05:20] to dentistry than just drill Phil and Bill thing. You know, there’s line angles, [01:05:25] ginger wills. Then it’s buccal corridors. You know, cosmetic [01:05:30] dentistry and, you know, whitening. You know, seeing you guys do your things and things. [01:05:35] And I was like, wow, there’s a lot more to dentistry. But, um, [01:05:40] I was also getting into occlusion at that stage. So I was [01:05:45] one of the clever ones that sort of, well, without sounding immodest and stuff, thinking, okay, [01:05:50] if I’m going to do this cosmetic work, I need to make sure that it fits well, [01:05:55] it lasts well, and the bite is correct, right? Because I don’t want things to fail. So [01:06:00] again, you know, like my research and stuff, I did a whole big research thing and stuff [01:06:05] and there were five options that I had John Frank [01:06:10] spear, Dawson LV or panky LVI. [01:06:15] I just didn’t like the philosophy. You just end up with long teeth panky. [01:06:20] I don’t know, it just didn’t resonate with me. Uh, which left [01:06:25] the other three doors, and I’d done a lot of doors and I liked it, but I just didn’t like the fact that everything [01:06:30] lived and died in CR, which I didn’t believe in that concept. Uh, so which left [01:06:35] Frank Speare and John Cleese, who are both admired, and I actually met my [01:06:40] other mentor, Ken Harris, at actually, Ian Buckley’s practice through a [01:06:45] Dawson course.

Payman Langroudi: Was also in UK.

Shameek Popat: And he’d just come back from doing quiz. Yeah, and he [01:06:50] recommended it highly. And that was my tipping point to do quiz. Um, and yeah, [01:06:55] 2006 I went for the first time to John Cleese and yeah, [01:07:00] uh, I think that was the single most important thing [01:07:05] that I’ve done in my dental career. John has changed. How I practice [01:07:10] dentistry, changed my life. So, yeah, I a lot to that, man.

Payman Langroudi: So could [01:07:15] you put it in in simple terms, right. What you [01:07:20] felt the first time you went there? And also when you say something as massive as [01:07:25] you changed the way I practice, you know, like were you. Is it as is as obvious as [01:07:30] you’re now looking for mouth rather than quadrant? Is that like, you know, absolutely. Good. Like [01:07:35] you could deliver full mouth his whole.

Shameek Popat: You know, let me just say when [01:07:40] I was apprehensive, okay? I mean, this is like, I think the first time, um, I’d gone [01:07:45] to the US after obviously nine over 11 as well. Yeah, yeah. Um, going to Seattle. So I was a little bit apprehensive. [01:07:50]

Payman Langroudi: The great town.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, I’ll tell you the funniest story as [01:07:55] well. So literally the first time I went to staff, I went, you know, to immigration and stuff and, um, [01:08:00] get the passport in and stuff. And he looks at the photo and looks at it, looks at the photo [01:08:05] and stuff and says, this doesn’t look like you. I shot my pants. I was like, [01:08:10] oh shit, what’s going to happen. And I said really? And he was in that. Just kidding. [01:08:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s 911, I remember. I used to get taken to secondary for questioning. [01:08:20]

Shameek Popat: But then when I, when I went to, um, the [01:08:25] quiz centre, you experienced the service level. [01:08:30] Nothing. Nothing that was in the UK like that and stuff, you know. Beautiful. [01:08:35] There’s your own warmers. Light. You know, you go to that. There’s [01:08:40] a fridge with every drink, every snack that you could want. They try and find out what [01:08:45] you like and try and get it for you. Uh, I remember when Tarik went and stuff. They especially got [01:08:50] in Ion Brew for him as well. You know, it was just unbelievable. And then the [01:08:55] teaching, the products, the whole manual, the whole traffic light system of [01:09:00] how to gauge patients and things. Um, you know, everything made [01:09:05] sense. It had a point and it meant how you could do dentistry [01:09:10] better.

Payman Langroudi: And some people worry that they’re not good enough. Does that? Do they start [01:09:15] at the beginning and anyone can understand?

Shameek Popat: Well, I don’t think, um, [01:09:20] question choice is something that you can start in the first five years of your career. [01:09:25] Oh, really? Yeah. I think you need to wait a little bit. Just a variety of [01:09:30] reasons. One, the level is quite high.

Payman Langroudi: From the beginning.

Shameek Popat: Like the.

Payman Langroudi: Beginning. It starts like a basic [01:09:35] level.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, you get it. But you can. But also I think the main [01:09:40] thing is what have you learn. Because you’re [01:09:45] probably an associate there, right. You’re not going to be able to implement it. And, and the [01:09:50] principal practice because he doesn’t understand it. He’s not going to suddenly want to change this whole practice because he’s associate [01:09:55] has gone on one course and wants to buy this, do this, change the whole thing. It’s just never going to happen. But [01:10:00] if you’ve been there for a little while, you’ve got the experience. Your principal understands you, trust [01:10:05] you. And then when you come to him saying, this is what I want to do. He’ll be more on [01:10:10] board.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example of that. Like, what are we talking? Equipment. Articulators. This was the [01:10:15] way.

Shameek Popat: I should change my whole medical questionnaire. Uh. Uh, I [01:10:20] changed the equipment. Um, I changed the way how I approach patients and [01:10:25] and actually examine them, change my treatment plans. The [01:10:30] whole. The way you practice dentistry changes. You don’t have [01:10:35] to. I mean, I have to be admitted because of the practices. And I was, you know, I didn’t go in feet first and stuff. [01:10:40] I did it so that, you know, most of the patients, you just would treat it as normal and stuff. [01:10:45] But then when the right cases came, you would do the whole shebang.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:10:50] do you recognise that some people say, oh, people who do these things end up over treating. Have [01:10:55] you ever heard that before? Am I making that up? Am I making this? I mean, maybe I’m making that [01:11:00] up in my own head.

Shameek Popat: No, no, not with me.

Payman Langroudi: Just generally, American training makes you more interventionist. [01:11:05]

Shameek Popat: That’s more what you’re talking cosmetic stuff and veneers and stuff, of course, has never been about veneers. [01:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t think it’s like.

Shameek Popat: The case is about.

Payman Langroudi: Collapsed bite situation where you think. [01:11:15]

Shameek Popat: No.

Payman Langroudi: Treated early.

Shameek Popat: You’re actually treating collapsed bites. You’re not creating them, right?

Payman Langroudi: No, I know, I know.

Shameek Popat: But so he’s [01:11:20] he’s he’s never and I and then the way it is is it’s broken into nine modules [01:11:25] right. Treatment planning. Occlusion one. Biomechanics. Perio restorative interface. [01:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: Teaching. He’s a great teacher. Does he teach at all? No. This is simple.

Shameek Popat: People know most [01:11:35] of it’s him. Most of it’s him. He’s got a few other people coming in now that’s helping him. [01:11:40] Yeah. Um, and I’m actually really, really gutted that this [01:11:45] July is probably one of the last symposiums. You can only get to go [01:11:50] to a symposium after you’ve graduated. Um, so you have to do all nine modules [01:11:55] before you’re allowed to go. Um, and it’s probably the last one, [01:12:00] and I can’t go. My daughter’s graduating, so obviously that’s why you can’t make it. Yeah, I can’t make it. So [01:12:05] it’s going to be a big FOMO.

Payman Langroudi: How does it take to graduate?

Shameek Popat: It [01:12:10] depends. There are nine modules. Uh, three days each. Yeah, a [01:12:15] big, big investment as well. How much? Um, they’re about $5,000 [01:12:20] per three days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that.

Shameek Popat: Was. Yeah. But then I also [01:12:25] did all these, like, junk courses, and then I’ve gone back to mentor, go to symposium. [01:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say mentor to teach.

Shameek Popat: Yes. So he has mentors at [01:12:35] the back. So once you graduate, uh, after one year, um, you can do an exam. [01:12:40] Uh, there’s an MCQ exam and then there is a case presentation. So you’ve got to treat a [01:12:45] patient for like a big nice rehab. And then you go to present and you get Viva donate. And [01:12:50] then you become a mentor. And then after you’ve mentored a few times, you can also [01:12:55] become a clinical instructor.

Payman Langroudi: And is there like homework? Like, do you have to like after [01:13:00] the three days, do you have to go back and treat a number of cases before you’re allowed to come back. No no [01:13:05] no. Good, good. That would have been too much.

Shameek Popat: That would have [01:13:10] been too much. No no no, no, there isn’t that way. But yeah, it was a life [01:13:15] changing.

Payman Langroudi: Your advice to anyone who wants to do. Let’s call it private dentistry is do something like [01:13:20] that. Absolutely.

Shameek Popat: And without doubt. Yeah. Without doubt. I mean, we [01:13:25] have great educators here as well and stuff, but but, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Learn full mouth. [01:13:30] You’re saying.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, for me, you know, I actually really I was just talking to a young dentist [01:13:35] that I feel for them that they may never get to experience John Kreuz, [01:13:40] Frank Speer, you know, obviously Pete Dawson’s passed away now, so they’ll never hear him speak. These [01:13:45] are giants, you know. Um, that I feel privileged [01:13:50] to have learned from.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, [01:13:55] you know, there are giants in every era. You know, it’s one of those things that you only know what you know [01:14:00] from when you became active.

Shameek Popat: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly right. So then this practice. [01:14:05] Did it, like, grow in terms of, like, patient numbers, dentist numbers, staff [01:14:10] numbers?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Just organically. Honestly, you know what? Never did any advertising. It was just word of mouth. [01:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, but now the treatment was, like, more comprehensive, right?

Shameek Popat: For the for the patients. [01:14:20] I never marketed it. I never if the patient needed it or they were recommended or they [01:14:25] were offered, then. Yes. Um, but I was never [01:14:30] I was, you know, I had a really nice life, really good practice, really [01:14:35] busy. I didn’t, I, you know, I wasn’t chasing, uh, full mouth rehabs [01:14:40] or cosmetic case. Nothing like that. You know, if they came, I would treat them. If they didn’t, I’ll be happy [01:14:45] doing single tooth dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the most lovely way of doing dentistry is to just do the [01:14:50] right thing and just trust the process, you know? Like, it really is. Like, we [01:14:55] often think about this with, um, products. Like, if I, if I want to bring out a new product I have to worry [01:15:00] about. Can I sell it to the dentist? Yeah, but actually, [01:15:05] the real worry is can the dentists sell it to the patient? And because we’re in [01:15:10] this transactional situation of the word sell here, I don’t mean sell. I [01:15:15] mean, you know, you how many years were you in that practice?

Shameek Popat: Oh, I’m 23 [01:15:20] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, you’ve been 23 years in a community where people come to you [01:15:25] and visit you and you. The way it ends up is you end up sort of keeping [01:15:30] more people like yourself. They refer people like yourself to you, and it becomes a [01:15:35] family setting you a pillar of that community. It’s not about selling anything to them. It’s about [01:15:40] doing the right thing for them. You know, like feeling hand on heart, you’re doing the right thing. [01:15:45] You know, in the in the transactional conversation sometimes [01:15:50] forget that that’s, you know, the way that most practices are. Right? Someone who’s in a community wants to do [01:15:55] the right thing for us patients. You know, that’s that’s what it is. That’s what’s going on.

Shameek Popat: So that, you know, that [01:16:00] was. I did I did have the sweet spot there and stuff. And obviously, you know, you think you always [01:16:05] got, oh you’re in the right area in the right place and stuff. But you know what? It’s like the Tiger Woods thing. The more I practice, the [01:16:10] easier it gets. That’s what it was. It’s you. You make the practice how you want it to be. [01:16:15] And my team, even though I’ve sold my practice now. [01:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: How many years.

Shameek Popat: Ago? It’s four and a half years ago now. Oh, really? Yeah. This is the fifth [01:16:25] year.

Payman Langroudi: Um, sorry about that.

Shameek Popat: So I’ll just finish what [01:16:30] I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Shameek Popat: The team members that are there, majority of them, [01:16:35] they’re all they’re 15 years plus.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shameek Popat: They’re all [01:16:40] there. You know.

Payman Langroudi: That says.

Shameek Popat: A lot. Yeah, I’m a periodontist. In that 20 years. [01:16:45] My hygienist, this was her first job. Then when she started, when she [01:16:50] qualified. And she’s still here 17, 18 years later. Um, well, my receptionist. [01:16:55] Yeah. Uh, still been there.

Payman Langroudi: So being the good [01:17:00] cop at home with your with your kids. Are you the good cop at work with your team as well? And is [01:17:05] there a bad cop?

Shameek Popat: No, I think that’s part of the problem.

Payman Langroudi: You need both, right?

Shameek Popat: And [01:17:10] you need both. Yeah, but we were always good cop. Um, it was an easygoing practice. [01:17:15] Uh, very easygoing practice.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry lets you write. Then in dentistry, you can. You [01:17:20] can send your kids to private school, go on your holidays per year, and not [01:17:25] be 100% on top of everything. Because it’s it’s [01:17:30] it’s. That’s what I’m saying to you when I say you say it’s hard. I’m saying it’s in that way it’s easy. You know why [01:17:35] your parents were pushing you into it, you know, so that even if things went wrong, you’d be okay. Kind [01:17:40] of, kind of kind of thing.

Shameek Popat: Because my brother wanted, really wanted to be a doctor. But they.

Payman Langroudi: Different. [01:17:45]

Shameek Popat: They they made him become a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Shameek Popat: It’s like it’s got to be an easier, better life. [01:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: I do that, I do that for my kids. My brother’s a doctor. I told you, it’s hard. It’s hard [01:17:55] medicine. It’s is hard, man. Especially here, especially here. So as you see that. Have [01:18:00] you seen those TikToks where they have like anaesthetist one year out of, uh, you know, anaesthetic [01:18:05] school in America and it goes, what are you earning is like, yeah. 1.3 was like, you [01:18:10] know, okay. If you’re if they’re paying dollars like that okay. So it makes.

Shameek Popat: Sense. You’re [01:18:15] right here. It’s yeah. It’s it’s like a hard life almost.

Payman Langroudi: They rely.

[TRANSITION]: On the.

Shameek Popat: Doctors I meet now [01:18:20] that have actually left and they’re doing other things. They’re doing other.

Payman Langroudi: Business relies on the goodwill [01:18:25] of the doctors. The nurses? Yeah. The goodwill of those people is holding [01:18:30] the system up.

Shameek Popat: And, you know, nursing, I think, is still one of the hardest jobs ever. [01:18:35] I did that.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, real nursing. Well.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Real nursing while I was a dental [01:18:40] student, uh, in the summers, just just to pay off my, uh, nursing inside [01:18:45] a.

Payman Langroudi: Nurse.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, in different hospitals, all of them and stuff. And some of the stories I’ll tell [01:18:50] you. And I would come back absolutely exhausted because, you know, a few [01:18:55] times I actually I did the psychology awards and they, they [01:19:00] mentally and physically exhausting. And I learned a newfound respect for [01:19:05] them.

Payman Langroudi: Social work. Yeah. Imagine you’re a social worker, dude. You have to go into people’s [01:19:10] houses and, and and sometimes assess whether I need to remove the kids from this [01:19:15] house because of abuse or whatever, and still get paid nothing. And [01:19:20] every time something goes wrong, they will blame social workers for.

Shameek Popat: Something.

Payman Langroudi: Like something went [01:19:25] wrong. You know, um.

Shameek Popat: You know, that’s, you know, there’s a blame culture going on at the moment [01:19:30] everywhere. Everyone wants to blame someone.

Payman Langroudi: Uk I find this into it. [01:19:35] Into it over the years. You know, there have been the single moms, uh, [01:19:40] and then, you know, now we’ve got the immigrants and are the people who are on the [01:19:45] dole. You know, people the UK likes to the media and the UK likes to blame. [01:19:50] And then and then the, the, the politicians realise that and then jump onto [01:19:55] one of the blame bits. I’m not sure if it’s in other countries the same, you know. Probably. [01:20:00]

Shameek Popat: Probably because to be grass is never greener. Grass [01:20:05] is never, never, never greener.

Payman Langroudi: What about you?

Payman Langroudi: What about your interest in whisky and gin? [01:20:10]

Shameek Popat: So obviously I’m Indian, so I think [01:20:15] whisky is in my blood. So yeah, I’ve always. Yeah, I think it came from [01:20:20] my father because, you know, in India and stuff in the [01:20:25] evenings, you know, they would they would get the Black Label out with soda and how. Whisky. [01:20:30] So there was all this fascination with whisky and I just. Yeah, I just fell [01:20:35] in love with it. Um, the water of life. And [01:20:40] so we’ve done, I don’t know, during Covid, we did tastings for [01:20:45] gin and whisky. I hosted some nice tastings. Yeah. I, uh, I’ve set up a [01:20:50] Facebook group for the dentistry Whisky Appreciation [01:20:55] Society, uh, with full of dentists who love whisky, which is quite a big group now with [01:21:00] Mike Gow, who’s another whisky aficionado. And, um, I [01:21:05] ended up well, you know, I always wanted to have my own course of whisky [01:21:10] and stuff. So, you know, I thought, I’ll get a few friends together and we’ll we’ll just get a cask and stuff. And the whole thing [01:21:15] then snowballed. And now we have these three carts, 650l [01:21:20] with 58 dentists involved in it, which is all. It’s just been eight years [01:21:25] now, so it’s ready to bottle. So I’m just designing the label and the bottle and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:21:30] such a creative man.

Shameek Popat: And you know, I’ve done the tastings for it. So it’s already I’m just [01:21:35] going to get it all done now. But it’s time. I’m time poor I’m time.

[TRANSITION]: For.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:21:40] gin. You were going to open a distillery.

[TRANSITION]: At one point.

Shameek Popat: I remember previously when we were going to do one of these [01:21:45] and stuff, and I was like, actually, you know what? I’m going to open this gin distillery. Let’s, let’s [01:21:50] announce it at this thing and stop.

Payman Langroudi: This is why you Ugandans are the master race.

Shameek Popat: So. [01:21:55] Yeah. Um, I again, [01:22:00] it was actually a Covid born idea. I actually had the people, I had the finance, but I only [01:22:05] wanted this one certain venue because, look, there’s there’s 400 gins in the UK, right? So you has to have a [01:22:10] USP. It’s a, it’s a saturated market. But one of my patients had this beautiful grade [01:22:15] one listed building. Did you ever see the drive in cinema event that I [01:22:20] did for the BBC?

Payman Langroudi: I wasn’t there, but I saw it. Yeah, it was beautiful place.

Shameek Popat: That’s that’s the place I was there. That’s my patients [01:22:25] place that I could. That was an amazing event, by the way. That worked out really well. And she [01:22:30] she was on board and stuff, but it’s a grade one listed building, an area [01:22:35] so we can’t build. So the area I wanted is unfortunately on a long term lease with [01:22:40] someone and they don’t want to move because it’s a beautiful area. So we couldn’t get that [01:22:45] place and I didn’t want to just do it anywhere. Um, so I sort [01:22:50] of put the idea on the shelf. I actually did a, uh, gin making diploma. [01:22:55] I learned how to make gin. I’ve got my own. Still at home.

Payman Langroudi: What does your wife say? [01:23:00] You don’t ask permission before you do these sort of things. You just do it.

Shameek Popat: Um.

Payman Langroudi: What is she. Is she just, [01:23:05] like, up for your. You know?

Shameek Popat: No, she does get mad a little bit. She goes, yeah, yeah, because poor girl. I [01:23:10] do feel for her because she never knows when, like, like she’s [01:23:15] opened the door and a trailer is turned up with a tuk tuk on it. Yeah. And she was like, [01:23:20] what the hell is that? So I never told her because she would never let me do it. Right. It’s easier to, uh. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: Apologise.

Shameek Popat: Apologise later and do something, um, or a painting. You know, [01:23:30] I got this beautiful Buddha painting that I fell in love with. Made a little booties and stuff. It turned up, um, [01:23:35] at the house or something. Or the other will do it. So. Yeah, I don’t know how she’s put up with me. [01:23:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you paying back in handbags? Definitely. [01:23:45]

Shameek Popat: Yes. Yes, you got it.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny. [01:23:50]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Yeah. That’s funny.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to disruptive. Oh, actually, [01:23:55] I do want to hear about the sale.

Shameek Popat: Of the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:24:00] The let’s go into, like, the feeling of loss when it was gone. Or did you not feel that? [01:24:05]

Shameek Popat: No, I felt the loss. Oh, my God, this time. This is my. This is my fourth trial, right? But [01:24:10] you’re still here. Actually, this is my oldest child, so I.

Payman Langroudi: Actually. This [01:24:15] does feel like a child.

Shameek Popat: Oh my God. Yeah, yeah.

Shameek Popat: So I actually likened it to giving away [01:24:20] your daughter at a wedding. Yeah. It’s a very bittersweet moment. You [01:24:25] know, you have to do it. It’s a rite of passage or something, but you don’t [01:24:30] have to like it. Um, so it was tough. The first year was tough, [01:24:35] but now. Oh, my God, I’m happy as Larry.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Shameek Popat: Absolutely. Absolutely. [01:24:40] Yeah. Best decision I did. It’s allowed me to do other things like tooth angel [01:24:45] and disruptive.

Payman Langroudi: What about the decision making process within the process, or are they less [01:24:50] fair about that? Like when you when you want to do something at a practice, do [01:24:55] you have to get permission from Portland dentists?

Shameek Popat: You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s calcium. I said I’m [01:25:00] sorry. I’m sorry. Um, to certain extent, yes, of course [01:25:05] it’s their business and stuff. So it becomes a bit more of a flower. You have to have a business plan if you want things and stuff. [01:25:10] Like one of the Ms. machine. So we had to jump through a few hoops to get it.

Shameek Popat: But you know what?

Shameek Popat: They’ve [01:25:15] been great. They’ve been good. They’ve been good bosses actually, um, they’ve left us [01:25:20] to be, um, they’re actually a really good company and good people.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:25:25] they don’t get involved in decisions that you don’t have to get too much like. I’m sure they’ll [01:25:30] piss you off if that was the case.

Shameek Popat: Maybe a little bit. But, you know, because.

Payman Langroudi: You had your.

[BOTH]: Opinion, [01:25:35] they’ve been really good.

Shameek Popat: To me. I can’t I cannot, um, say anything otherwise. [01:25:40] They’ve been really, really good to me. So I’ve been very happy.

Payman Langroudi: In the moment of selling right the next day, when you were feeling that [01:25:45] loss, did you always. I know you said bittersweet, right? What about the sweet side? Did you feel like achievement? [01:25:50]

Shameek Popat: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, you it is. It’s like you’ve grown [01:25:55] something that someone wants and they’ve paid good money for it. Um, [01:26:00] and also, you know, the relief that. Hang on. Okay. Now, I don’t have to worry about [01:26:05] air admin. None of that. You know, I can [01:26:10] just do what I do best is go in, treat the patients and leave and not [01:26:15] have to worry about anything.

Payman Langroudi: That must be nice.

Shameek Popat: So that was a good feeling as well. But [01:26:20] it was. It’s also difficult to let go as well. Yeah. So I think the first year probably um, [01:26:25] maybe I was you know, they probably thought, oh my God, is he going to be difficult or not or something. [01:26:30] But you know, since then it’s just been great.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to disruptive. What [01:26:35] is.

Shameek Popat: It? So the [01:26:40] mission for disruptive is. Elevating dentistry, whether [01:26:45] that’s through. High quality materials or [01:26:50] the clinical training provided. We want to disrupt the market [01:26:55] so that the product and the practice match so that [01:27:00] dentists don’t just buy better, but they work better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:27:05]

Shameek Popat: Okay. There’s a lot of things out there that we end up buying. Yeah. And [01:27:10] stuff. But we don’t use because we don’t know how to use it properly. We don’t know what to do. So we want to mar that together [01:27:15] so that whenever it’s something they buy from us, we’re going to train them to use it properly [01:27:20] so it’s not wasted. So for example.

Payman Langroudi: Composite.

Shameek Popat: Composite. So yeah our main product is [01:27:25] Inspira. Um and that’s diabetes. Um [01:27:30] composite. Um, and yeah, at the bond conference [01:27:35] they approached us to say, you know, they wanted to see if they can get a distributor and whether [01:27:40] we would be interested as well. And we were like, I hadn’t thought of that. Um, [01:27:45] but suddenly that sounded like, okay, do you know what the, [01:27:50] uh, the red car theory is?

Payman Langroudi: Red car, when you see it once and you see it everywhere. [01:27:55] Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So, for example. Yeah. How many red cars did you notice on the way here? No, no, no, [01:28:00] but if I say if I say I gave you £50 for every red car you notice on the way back. Yeah, you’ll notice [01:28:05] quite a few, right. Yeah. It’s like opportunities.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: There’s loads of opportunities out there. But [01:28:10] because we’re not looking at them, we’re not focussed on them and stuff. We keep on missing that. But [01:28:15] suddenly when you’re focussed and you’re looking for opportunities and stuff, they just keep on coming [01:28:20] to you. And then this is what’s happening every week. I’m getting an opportunity and it’s like, wow, [01:28:25] it gets yeah to too many and stuff. And you go to pick and choose and stuff. But this, this just seemed [01:28:30] a really good match actually. Um, because, you [01:28:35] know, I’ve used a composite, I’ve trained under DDA again. Really. You know, love him as [01:28:40] an educator. A really nice guy with a good product. And then, you know, I did [01:28:45] a little bit of research on it and stuff and then suddenly thought, hang on, did you Pascal, [01:28:50] Andrew, Chandra, Pal, Govinda, Chris or Tarek [01:28:55] Bashir, Joe Bansal, Junaid Malik, they’re [01:29:00] all using this composite, but there’s nothing in the UK actually getting it out [01:29:05] to the dentists who want to use it. Um, and so [01:29:10] yeah, me and Andrew thought this would be a really good idea, good opportunity to do something with it. Um, [01:29:15] and we created disruptive smiles and then suddenly we’ve got other [01:29:20] people saying, would you like to distribute this.

Payman Langroudi: For other things?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Well, the idea [01:29:25] would be everything composite. Okay. Yeah. So just to make it easy, one top stop [01:29:30] shop, um, for everything composite.

Payman Langroudi: And what did I tell you?

Shameek Popat: It’s [01:29:35] going to be really hard.

Payman Langroudi: Big health warning on composite [01:29:40] man. Big health warning on it.

Shameek Popat: Look, nothing. Nothing is [01:29:45] easy.

Payman Langroudi: No no no no.

Shameek Popat: Of course nothing is easy. Right. And and [01:29:50] you know, if you don’t try it, you’ll always have regrets. And I hate regrets.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:29:55] but look, why is it that you [01:30:00] have to leave my Cosmo side to one side? My Cosmo, the part of the business [01:30:05] to one side. Because you can call that 650 products. Yeah, but that was one one [01:30:10] handshake. It was 650. But. But why is it that I haven’t brought out? [01:30:15] I don’t know, tasty toothpaste or fluoride [01:30:20] free? Yeah. Why is it I haven’t done it yet. Why? Because. [01:30:25] Because bandwidth wise for me. Now, you you you may be way more [01:30:30] like. Like someone like Connor Bryant. Yeah. I just see him as a much, much [01:30:35] more like energetic businessman than me. Yeah. So Conor could can [01:30:40] do. Yeah. Loops and chairs and software. Yeah. And he can [01:30:45] pull it off, and he can talk to the right people and do it like he can.

Shameek Popat: He can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Maybe you can too. Maybe [01:30:50] you can too, dude. Yeah. But I’m just saying that, you know, difficult. [01:30:55] Difficult. Because now now we’ve got this at B2C and we’ve got that at B2B. [01:31:00] And all you need now is one of these enlightened B2B B2C.

[BOTH]: Just [01:31:05] just to finish you off completely. That thing and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:31:10] but but we did talk about it. And I said it’s a very unique opportunity because [01:31:15] if it is a good product. Dda is a good teacher. And [01:31:20] it’s it’s not like starting something completely from, from new. So and and you are in [01:31:25] in B2B. You are very strong. Yeah. It’s just unfortunate. This is a B2C product. That’s [01:31:30] kind of what I was saying to you about that in B2B. You are very strong. So good [01:31:35] on you. Um. You’re going to do what? Courses and sell materials at the course is correct. [01:31:40]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Um, so, yeah, it’s just been great. Um, again, doing the branding, [01:31:45] the website, the website design’s done. It’ll be going to the developers tomorrow. Um, [01:31:50] and then hopefully as soon as they get it up and running, uh, it’ll be live. So [01:31:55] it’s it’s exciting. And, you know, uh, Manuela. Christina, there’s [01:32:00] such good people, um, to work with, really nice people. And like I said, [01:32:05] you know, before, um, it’s not the products people buy. People.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:32:10] And it’s always good to know with with the supplier that they’re not going to sort of screw you over. [01:32:15]

Shameek Popat: No, no. And it’s a good product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And but also the other way around. He’s it’s good for him [01:32:20] to know you’re not going to screw him over.

[BOTH]: Yeah, absolutely.

Shameek Popat: They’re not going to make any composite. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When the starting point is that, you know, you can [01:32:30] you end up. Depends on who you are, right? So Prav can do business with anyone. He’s [01:32:35] just.

[BOTH]: Strong. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He can sit and partner with Tom, Dick or Harry. Yeah, [01:32:40] and he’ll get. He’ll make sure. He’ll make sure everything is absolutely correct. And the likes of me [01:32:45] and you, we want to know that we know the people we’re dealing with and. And [01:32:50] that’s.

Shameek Popat: Absolutely correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a strength and a big weakness as well. Yeah. You know, it means you limit [01:32:55] your opportunities, your your partners, your investors, your, you know, but it’s just who you are. And [01:33:00] it’s like going against who you are as the era in life. I think, you know, at least [01:33:05] you come to a point of knowing who you are, that there’s a big point in itself, right? [01:33:10]

[BOTH]: No, I totally.

Shameek Popat: Agree with you there. Yeah, absolutely. Um, [01:33:15] I mean, like I said to you, every week I’m getting like, do you want [01:33:20] to do this? Can you partner up with this and stuff? And you got to pick and choose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:33:25] It’s difficult. It’s difficult because, like, what it is, is in the [01:33:30] joy of the idea. The the you remember that? [01:33:35] You don’t remember that. That the dip that happens as soon as you start. And then as [01:33:40] that in that dip, you come to learn, okay, I’m going to lean in.

Shameek Popat: Into [01:33:45] the.

[BOTH]: Deep.

Payman Langroudi: Lean, lean into the dip. And that’s when costs [01:33:50] start mounting. Yeah. And then it’s like, you know what we [01:33:55] were saying? Like the worst mistake you can make in the world is to have a slow failure. Yeah, [01:34:00] a fast failure, a slow failure. It takes years of [01:34:05] your life and money as well.

[BOTH]: And.

Payman Langroudi: Drains you. And I’ve been there, I’ve been there, [01:34:10] I’ve been there. Like in the beginning of enlightenment. God, man, I, you know, difficult. [01:34:15] Um, so good luck with it, Matt.

[BOTH]: Let’s just say thank you. We’ll see. [01:34:20]

Shameek Popat: So, yeah, we just launched the Instagram, um, disruptive smiles. [01:34:25] So smiles. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m a follower.

Shameek Popat: Follow. Oh. You follow?

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:34:30] already. I’m already a follower.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Excellent.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so when’s the first event?

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:34:35] we’re looking at probably end of September. Beginning of October. Coming September? Yeah. Oh, [01:34:40] really? Hopefully, if we can pull it off.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and Wednesday coming.

Shameek Popat: Or is [01:34:45] it not? No, no, he will next year. Yeah, absolutely. The day will come. Um. So, yeah. You’re going to love [01:34:50] our first educator. I won’t tell you just yet because it’s not [01:34:55] here. Oh, because it’s too soon for this year.

Payman Langroudi: So next year, September [01:35:00] is not Andy.

Shameek Popat: Andy will be doing one as well, but someone else. Wait [01:35:05] and see.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? [01:35:10] Oh, what a traitor.

Shameek Popat: Oh! [01:35:15]

Payman Langroudi: I’m joking. Excellent. [01:35:20] Excellent.

Shameek Popat: No, I mean, what a cool girl. What a cool educator. Good [01:35:25] teacher. Yeah. Good. I’m really excited about it. I’m really excited about it. [01:35:30]

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes. Let’s get to that. The darker part. The darker part of the pod. [01:35:35] It’s a bit late in the day, but I want to hear about clinical errors. What comes [01:35:40] to mind when I say clinical error?

Shameek Popat: So I love the question because [01:35:45] you learn more from failures than things going right. Yeah. And [01:35:50] one of my favourite quotes is [01:35:55] good judgement comes from experience. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: An experience. Well, that comes from poor judgement.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah it’s [01:36:05] nice.

Shameek Popat: But mistakes wise. [01:36:10] Oh, I’ll tell you a funny one, actually. Um, this is more [01:36:15] early in my career. Um, I think in the first five years or something. [01:36:20] Um, of qualifying, uh, the the practice. And, [01:36:25] um, you know, I had a patient who had one of the patients, really fussy patients now making a full denture. Uh, [01:36:30] and I put one on. You know, we were on, like, probably the fifth, sixth try in, you know, [01:36:35] double mirrors, everything and stuff. And and finally she goes, yeah, [01:36:40] I like it. This is fine. All good. It was brilliant. Let’s get it. Send it off to [01:36:45] be completed. She came back two weeks later. You know, the nurse [01:36:50] handed me the denture. Popped it in? Yeah. Looks good. Bite. Checked it. Checked [01:36:55] the bite. Everything’s good. I like couldn’t wait. Go, go before you find something [01:37:00] goes. Two hours later, we got a call. I [01:37:05] was having a hot cup of tea, and my teeth are falling out and the dentures melted. [01:37:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: It was still in wax.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:37:15] trying.

Shameek Popat: Well, we don’t know what happened, whether it never got [01:37:20] sent back or they sent it back without finishing it and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, it wasn’t trying. It was fit. It was fit, [01:37:25] but it was in wax.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, it was still in wax. It was supposed to be a fit stage.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Shameek Popat: And it was so [01:37:30] obviously. Oh my God, I was glad to, like, remake it and stuff. And I never heard the end of it. Um, [01:37:35] from my practice, it was like, yeah, no, I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not going to.

Shameek Popat: Say no, no, no, no, that [01:37:40] was funny.

Payman Langroudi: I like a good story.

Shameek Popat: But that was a good story.

Shameek Popat: I’ll tell you. You know, you [01:37:45] may not realise, but I’m a good dentist. I’ve done I’ve, I’ve been, you know, I’ve always [01:37:50] stayed in my lane. I’ve never tried to do things that I can’t do and stuff. So [01:37:55] I’ve never really had.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, listen, listen, let’s talk about a mistake.

Shameek Popat: No, no, I’m going to tell you one. Oh [01:38:00] okay. No, no, I’m going to tell you one. I’m going to tell you one which is right. So this [01:38:05] was again quite a few years back actually. Um, actually not [01:38:10] so long after I’d gone to my first choice symposium. Um, which I’ll lead you into it, but [01:38:15] it was when we were doing, you know, um, cement retaining plants, not [01:38:20] screw retaining plants and stuff. So, you know, I’ve done the try and occlusion and stuff. And, [01:38:25] um, I was taking the Qur’an out to be able to put it in with retrieve cement. Now, [01:38:30] this patient is like big lips, lots of saliva, big tongue, [01:38:35] floppy everywhere and stuff, and nervous and fidgety. And as I was taking [01:38:40] it out, the crown just flew out and we couldn’t find out. [01:38:45]

Payman Langroudi: I swallowed, swallowed it.

Shameek Popat: He says, oh, I think I may have swallowed. And I think, [01:38:50] oh my God. So obviously we set him up. We say, all [01:38:55] right, you know, we’re gonna have to send you to an.

Payman Langroudi: X-ray.

Shameek Popat: Just to check for X-rays and stuff. And he [01:39:00] goes, no, I’m not going to wait a day. And he. And I’m pretty sure I saw it and stuff. I said, like, no, I said, I’ve got [01:39:05] to send you. Right. And you’re just saying, no, I can’t be bothered. So I said, okay, what [01:39:10] you have to do is I gave him some gloves and masks [01:39:15] and stuff. You’re gonna have to, like, look for it when you go to the toilet, because [01:39:20] otherwise you have to go for an x ray and bless him. He actually [01:39:25] called back the next day. Done it. Doggy bag founder. But that was [01:39:30] a sleepless night and the reason it was a [01:39:35] sleepless night is at the symposium, and it [01:39:40] was literally my first or second one. It was about clinical errors. And one [01:39:45] of the clinical instructors, I won’t name him, but an amazing guy did [01:39:50] the most emotional presentation that I’ve ever seen where [01:39:55] he talked about, because I think they do a lot of sedation that [01:40:00] he was treating, um, a lady. But they were friends. They were family, friends [01:40:05] and stuff. Um, and he was doing an implant and [01:40:10] there was a cover screw, and he dropped the cover screw. Um, and, you [01:40:15] know, they had to send it off, and it was down her lungs, and they couldn’t retrieve it. [01:40:20] So you had to call the husband and let him know and things. [01:40:25] And they had to operate. Take a little piece of lung out. Um, to get it [01:40:30] six months later. They’re try and do it again. And [01:40:35] guess what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened.

Shameek Popat: Again? It happened again.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: He [01:40:40] said it was the most difficult phone call he ever had to [01:40:45] make to the husband.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Shameek Popat: But luckily, this [01:40:50] time they managed to retrieve it without having to operate well. But. [01:40:55] And he’s told this story 2 or 3 times in symposiums and stuff. So it’s not, [01:41:00] you know, probably one, you know, made him want to give up dentistry. [01:41:05] Thought he wasn’t good enough. Everything but his friends, family, everyone rallied [01:41:10] around him and he continued. And, you know, he’s still an amazing dentist. [01:41:15] Still practising. And I mean, I’m not doing [01:41:20] the story justice. But when he said it, you know, people were crying. You know, he got a standing [01:41:25] ovation and stuff. But he told the story about the two [01:41:30] wolves. It’s a Cherokee tale. Have you heard it? No. I [01:41:35] love that story so much. I actually used it at my parent’s [01:41:40] 45th wedding anniversary, which was her last [01:41:45] anniversary before she passed away through leukaemia. But [01:41:50] the Two Wolves story was about an [01:41:55] old Cherokee Indian walking with his grandson, and he’s telling [01:42:00] his grandson that there’s two wolves inside us, constantly [01:42:05] battling. The first wolf. Is [01:42:10] hate and we greed [01:42:15] Fearful. And then the second wolf battling is [01:42:20] good, hopeful, humble and wants good [01:42:25] things. And the [01:42:30] grandson asks the granddad, which Wolf wins. The granddad [01:42:35] says, the one you feed, all right. And [01:42:40] the way it related to my mom was, is [01:42:45] obviously she had leukaemia. And we were like, [01:42:50] my brother and I and my father, we were like scared, worried. We were researching. [01:42:55] We wanted to send her on a plane to New York to [01:43:00] have treatment, but she didn’t want that. She was feeding the good wolf, saying, no, [01:43:05] I want to spend time with my children, with my family, and enjoy what I have. And [01:43:10] that’s what we ended up doing. Um, obviously. But [01:43:15] we were constantly feeding the wrong wolf. And, you know, that’s what he was doing as well, feeding [01:43:20] the wrong wolf till his friends and family put him into the right wolf pathway. [01:43:25] So, you know, it’s always about feeding the gold wolf. You know, it’s all [01:43:30] in your head.

Payman Langroudi: How long did it take for your mom?

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:43:35] two years. Two years from. Yeah. Out of the blue.

Payman Langroudi: And you saw her declining? [01:43:40]

Shameek Popat: I mean, yes, but, you know, luckily it wasn’t. Uh, [01:43:45] yeah, it was painful and it was bad and stuff. Um, but, [01:43:50] yeah, it wasn’t something we were expecting. And she was quite young. So. Yeah. It [01:43:55] was.

Payman Langroudi: How old was.

Shameek Popat: She? 68.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [01:44:00] Super young. So, how old were you? Um, which [01:44:05] year was, like, ten years?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Yeah, it was 2013. She passed. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sorry.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. [01:44:10] Yeah yeah, yeah. So I think, yeah, we which sort of went past the, um, [01:44:15] the story. But yeah, that’s why I’d heard that story [01:44:20] and what had happened and everything. And then obviously the same thing happened to my patient and the same flashbacks and everything. What, you [01:44:25] know, what? It was sort of. And we had to leave.

Payman Langroudi: It had had more significance to you than of significance. [01:44:30]

Shameek Popat: Um, as well.

Payman Langroudi: I would like to. I don’t want to hear a mistake, but like, [01:44:35] like a, almost like a realisation when you’re doing full [01:44:40] mouth dentistry that there’s a certain something clicks in your head and it’s [01:44:45] normally it’s due to a failure that something clicks in your head. Like, I don’t know, [01:44:50] just for the sake of argument, when I was doing the Rosenthal stuff that, you know, proximal staining [01:44:55] of a veneer, you know, like, of course, you know, later when you found out, you should have prepped it a little bit [01:45:00] further, that elbow, you think, well, whatever it was. Yeah. But in that moment I was like, oh shit, [01:45:05] I can’t just go around drilling everything off, because back then we were very drill happy. Yeah. And [01:45:10] and you know, it stained within a two years or something. And I was like, God damn it. You know, like I’ve [01:45:15] done something and I had it, you know? So what was there? Was there something in your mouth, [01:45:20] the industry that something clicked in your head regarding platoon [01:45:25] planning, the actual execution, patient management. You know, as someone who’s done [01:45:30] so many, you must do.

Shameek Popat: So. I mean, look, to me, [01:45:35] one of the most important things that I actually do, and I [01:45:40] learned actually, and maybe I think that was probably through a mistake and stuff, um, was [01:45:45] I don’t know if you read the checklist manifesto.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Shameek Popat: So whenever I do something [01:45:50] like that, I do a checklist so that nothing gets forgotten. Yeah. You [01:45:55] know, everything goes anything. So I’ll have a checklist, and my assistant [01:46:00] would have it, and we would just checklist so that everything would not be, you know, because [01:46:05] there are times where I’ve forgotten the stump shade or I forgot on certain bites and stuff. Um, but [01:46:10] I have it. So whenever I’m doing, like, a rehab and stuff, I would probably actually, I’d, I’d do [01:46:15] it, you know, over two days. You know, we’ll do one arch one day, one arch the [01:46:20] other day.

Payman Langroudi: Follow your checklist.

Shameek Popat: Follow my checklist. Yeah. I have a nice little [01:46:25] checklist with, um, a b a b, you know, all the bits and everything that I do [01:46:30] are all labelled. Everything’s done. Is that been done? Yes. Has that been done? Yes. [01:46:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nice tip.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You should you should upload that to [01:46:40] your voice and say, hey, give this to all your students.

Shameek Popat: No. [01:46:45] So no, that’s, you know, so my nurse knows everything, you know, even when you’re doing fits [01:46:50] and staff checklist that this is the order that it goes in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:46:55]

Shameek Popat: Nice man. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions.

Shameek Popat: Go for it. [01:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive.

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:47:05] to be honest, I only need one.

Payman Langroudi: Mom. [01:47:10]

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah. On it. Just to have a [01:47:15] nice cup of masala chai and just sit with her. [01:47:20] And just to let her know that, you know, she’s worried about my [01:47:25] brother who wasn’t married at that stage. Whether I know that he’s married with an amazing wife. [01:47:30] He has a seven year old granddaughter. That is the apple of my dad’s. [01:47:35] You know, the granddaughter is the apple of my dad. Um, our kids are thriving. [01:47:40] Doing so well, um, at university. Um. Good family. [01:47:45] We’re fine. And that is okay. That is fine. So it would just lie so [01:47:50] that, you know, she has that piece.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [01:47:55] like to leave it there. You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:48:00] hard to leave it there. Do you believe she’s looking down?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, [01:48:05] definitely. I hope so. I love the fact they looked up. Uh, [01:48:10] no. It’s. You know, it’s important. I think that’s that’s [01:48:15] part of the whole thing about Uganda nations and stuff. You [01:48:20] know, family values, community values, education, you [01:48:25] know, work ethic. It all comes. I don’t know if, you know, um, in [01:48:30] the for the graduates and stuff, out of the 191 Indian billionaires, [01:48:35] 109 are Gujarati. There are they [01:48:40] makes 5 to 6% of the population, but they control 60% of the overseas business.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:48:45] right.

Shameek Popat: That’s quite something.

Payman Langroudi: But then the Sikhs [01:48:50] are pretty strong in business too.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah there are.

Payman Langroudi: I had a friend, uh, he was, uh. [01:48:55] Cindy. My God, man, those guys knew what [01:49:00] they were talking about. All of them. It’s a small community, though. But, yeah, I mean, I [01:49:05] call you guys the master race. I keep telling you. But [01:49:10] it’s been a massive pleasure. It really has. I knew it would be, but it’s been a massive pleasure. Thank [01:49:15] you so much for being so open as well.

Shameek Popat: No thank you. You know, I really enjoyed it. And you’re an amazing host. [01:49:20]

Payman Langroudi: Great.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:49:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:49:30] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:49:35] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you [01:49:40] got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:49:45] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guests had to say, because [01:49:50] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:49:55] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [01:50:00] out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:50:05]

[VOICE]: This is [00:00:05] Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Prav Solanki: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Dental Leaders podcast. [00:00:25] On this particular episode, we capture a conversation between Kailash Solanki, my [00:00:30] brother, and Dev Patel. Having discussions around how Kiss [00:00:35] Dental has evolved over the last 20 years, this is a fly in the wall conversation [00:00:40] between the two of them that captures the essence of how it all started. [00:00:45] What has happened since and what the future is. [00:00:50] Without further ado, Kailash and Dev.

Dev Patel: I’m [00:00:55] Doctor Dev Patel. I’m the CEO of Dental Beauty Partners. Really excited today to meet with Doctor Kayla [00:01:00] Solanki, one of our key partners up in northwest who has been expanding the Kis dental [00:01:05] brand. And this year is a 25th anniversary. So, okay, um, you’ve obviously [00:01:10] set up this then to over 20 years ago now. Tell me how you first started the first practice.

Kailesh Solanki: And [00:01:15] so from 2005, I was working as a I had just finished, just started [00:01:20] as an associate ship and then Stockport and then just kind of wanted my own thing, really. [00:01:25] And so I found a clinic. Everyone told me not to buy it. So that was like [00:01:30] my, my career, like, let’s buy it then. And um, and so yeah, it was in Flixton, it [00:01:35] was um, just like a little suburb. The main thing that was around that area was [00:01:40] it was great for motorways. There was big motorway right next to the practice, and then it [00:01:45] was right at the Trafford Centre. And for me it was just that one big landmark [00:01:50] that I could say we’re close to this. Um, we’re not right in the city centre. We’ve got loads [00:01:55] of parking and then and come and see us? And so that was my play back then. And it was just [00:02:00] like, that’s kind of how I thought I wanted to do dentistry and not be in a city [00:02:05] centre environment originally, just be good quality dentistry in a suburban [00:02:10] area that everyone can can access. Really.

Dev Patel: And obviously you did it literally a year after or [00:02:15] two years after graduating, which is very early for most young dentists. So why did you take the leap so quickly?

Kailesh Solanki: I mean, [00:02:20] I am I kind of have always, always been into business. So when even when I was a at school, [00:02:25] I kind of helped my dad when he’s kind of sharp. Um, and then, you know, went to university. [00:02:30] I ran a computer business. Um, and so I kind of was that Wayne [00:02:35] Klein wouldn’t say an entrepreneur. That’s not going to work.

Dev Patel: Yeah, definitely.

Kailesh Solanki: Definitely. But I’d say I was just kind of [00:02:40] always wanting to kind of do something, make money somewhere, um, and find where to find what [00:02:45] I was good at and kind of work it. And then dentistry was just that next, that next level for me, [00:02:50] you know, I decided that that was what my career choice was. And so I just wanted to make a [00:02:55] career out of dentistry and make it a business that was viable and provided me. [00:03:00] I suppose the lifestyle. I’m on it. Really? Yeah.

Dev Patel: It’s obviously a big risk, though, and a big investment from [00:03:05] such a young age and going fully private without the guarantee of the NHS. So why did you decide to go fully private? [00:03:10]

Kailesh Solanki: Um, I do like lots of private courses. I’ve done, like all the Paul Tipton courses [00:03:15] and I’ve done lots of kind of courses abroad. And it just kind of [00:03:20] made me realise that, especially dentistry wise, it wasn’t really about going [00:03:25] private or staying in the NHS, it was just providing what I wanted to provide for the patient. And obviously [00:03:30] private dentistry leads itself really easily for me to do that. So when I set my [00:03:35] clinical, it was always going to be this is the this is what we want to provide. These are the [00:03:40] the treatments I want to do. Um, and this is how I want to benefit my patients. [00:03:45] And so ultimately, I couldn’t work in the room of the NHS by doing [00:03:50] that. Yeah. And so for me it was it was a big risk I think, you know, as back a [00:03:55] million quids worth of debt.

Dev Patel: That’s amazing. Yeah, yeah, it’s going to be expensive, right?

Kailesh Solanki: It was it was wasn’t cheap. Yeah. He [00:04:00] bought the clinic. I think it was about half £1 million, probably about half £1 million into a refurb. And [00:04:05] God took it out all on loans and all on kind of, you know, finance [00:04:10] to my eyeballs. Really? Yeah. And and. Yeah. Like your [00:04:15] young guy, you think you’re like, you’re fearless. Like nothing’s going to touch you. And so you [00:04:20] kind of do these things. But I do it again. I don’t know. It’s it’s it’s hard when you’re older and you’ve [00:04:25] got commitments and stuff like that. But back then I didn’t have as much. Um, so if I was [00:04:30] going to lose everything, what was the. What would I lose? Do you know what I mean?

Dev Patel: True entrepreneur man.

Kailesh Solanki: No no no [00:04:35] no. Take those risks like but and and. Yeah. You know, there was some hairy moments. Don’t [00:04:40] get me wrong. You know, moments where I thought, oh, this could go down the pan. Really? Yeah. [00:04:45] Um, but yeah, you know, you know, we’re 20 years on now and and amazing. It’s it’s [00:04:50] all paid off and, you know, took those risks and, and and it’s worked out but but yeah, it’s [00:04:55] it’s been, it’s been ups and downs definitely.

Dev Patel: I can imagine. And obviously you said obviously it’s been 20 [00:05:00] years on then. So what’s the key to longevity for you. I mean how have you kept, you know, so successful [00:05:05] and become one of the best brands in the UK and still one of the best bands in the UK even after 20 years? [00:05:10]

Kailesh Solanki: I think like for me, success is like my team. Um, and I would [00:05:15] say the strongest thing that kiss has got going for it is having a really consistent [00:05:20] long term team. You know, I’ve got members of my team, um, you know, 20 years old, [00:05:25] still young and now and essentially, you know, I’ve still got three, 3 [00:05:30] or 4 team members that have still been with me right from the start. Yeah. Um, and still the people [00:05:35] you can rely on, you know, everything’s great when everything’s great, when the shit hits the fan, it’s really [00:05:40] important to have certain kind of key people that you can say, we need to level up here. [00:05:45] We, you know, we need to knuckle down and we need to ensure that this business is going to do what we needed to do and [00:05:50] to rely on people like, you know, you’re not a lone Ranger, especially as your business grows. [00:05:55] You’ve got to understand that, you know, you have to rely on people. You have to delegate. You have to kind [00:06:00] of understand that it’s not all about me. And, and, and having that ability to, to have [00:06:05] those really key team members and trust them and, and rely upon them is a real key aspect. [00:06:10]

Dev Patel: Definitely. I think we can definitely feel that whenever you come over to kiss and meet the team members, they all like big [00:06:15] family, basically, right? And it’s just even though you’re growing, it still feels the same thing, which is great. What what would you say [00:06:20] has been the most difficult kind of year then? I’m assuming for the first, maybe 2008 was a good, difficult [00:06:25] year for you guys. Was that like, you know, to be honest.

Kailesh Solanki: Yes. No, it actually wasn’t. Oh yeah. So for [00:06:30] us, like I would probably say our initial growth okay. Because you know, it’s easy [00:06:35] now you’re 20 years on and you have a plan. And we open a new clinic and with obviously the [00:06:40] help of, of yourselves and it’s it’s structured, it’s well governed like [00:06:45] we’ve, we’ve tried and tested all these different marketing methods and. Yeah. And so we’ve got it. We’ve [00:06:50] got it. And really I would say we’re pretty solid. You know, you start a new business like that, you [00:06:55] know a little bit wet behind the ears, not really knowing what’s going on. People are coming at you use [00:07:00] us for marketing. Let’s do this. Let’s do that. You kind of look really back then [00:07:05] as well. You didn’t know what worked.

Dev Patel: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Of course. And so the expenditure to get yourself [00:07:10] out there to, to be a brand, to be visual in an area, [00:07:15] it costs a lot of money. Yeah. And it got to probably about 2000 and I [00:07:20] would say 2007 before the financial crisis. And I remember these bills were coming in [00:07:25] and I was like, this is killing us. Like whatever money we’re making, kind of doing [00:07:30] the dentistry, we’re spending so much to kind of be visual. And [00:07:35] it almost bankrupt us, to be honest. You know, we got to a point where, you know, we were getting [00:07:40] 150 K worth of bills in back then on marketing. [00:07:45] Wow. In a three month period. And you’re scratching your head thinking, [00:07:50] how am I going to afford this? How am I going to pay for this? Um, but also in the same breath, without [00:07:55] that marketing spend, we weren’t getting the influx of the people we needed in. So [00:08:00] we were in a real catch 22 situation, and then it kind of hits over a curve [00:08:05] and then it starts to really self propagate. Yeah. And you can get past that. [00:08:10] You kind of then you’re laughing. You laugh it. And by 2008 to be honest, even [00:08:15] though the financial crisis hit, it was a reasonably strong year for us. And 2009 was. [00:08:20] And then from that point, because everything was self propagating, everything was [00:08:25] working for marketing, more word of mouth was coming through. You know, business takes [00:08:30] time to grow and word of mouth is great. Slope. Yeah. Of course that was now growing. [00:08:35] And so now we’re in 2009, 2010. And I’m purchasing another clinic and [00:08:40] another clinic because we’ve got that brand presence. We’ve got that awareness in [00:08:45] the Greater Manchester in the northwest area. And so for us it was more that [00:08:50] it was more growing. Initially, the initial growth, the speedy [00:08:55] growth that I kind of wanted was what almost kind of finished was really.

Dev Patel: I think it’s uh, it’s, [00:09:00] you know, whether you realise it or not, it’s probably one of the first real brands in the UK. And [00:09:05] back then obviously spend that much money even in this day and age, you know, 20 years on for [00:09:10] marketing costs. And one clinic with 3 or 4 surgeries is a huge risk. Yeah. And people will say you’re [00:09:15] crazy probably at the time. But, you know, it’s, uh, you know, it’s a really, you know, visionary thing to be doing [00:09:20] and that far, far, far ahead of the time. Right. And I think obviously, you know, there was a period where your brother came on board [00:09:25] as well. And obviously he helped with the marketing, how that kind of changed things.

Kailesh Solanki: So to be, to be honest, my brother, [00:09:30] um, obviously, you know, he won’t mind me saying he’s very highly educated, but that’s what the [00:09:35] doctor, you know, discovered something about the heart. I mean, like, [00:09:40] you know, I don’t think we’re actually biological brothers.

Dev Patel: I don’t think so.

Kailesh Solanki: Even on the basis of those [00:09:45] things. But ultimately, you know, he came back from university and he was probably going to live there, [00:09:50] and it would pull him back. Yeah. And I said, like, you’re a smart lad. Yeah. You don’t want [00:09:55] to. Do you want to be a doctor anymore? Yeah. You don’t want to be a lab rat anymore, which is essentially [00:10:00] what he was at university. So I was like, help me do marketing.

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: I was like, [00:10:05] it’s not rocket science. You figure it out. Yeah. You do a bit of research and then start helping [00:10:10] me. Yeah. I was like, because it is killing me. And that’s why we were spending those real big books. Yeah. [00:10:15] And so we cancelled out our PR agency. [00:10:20] We cancelled loads of things. Practice took over initially just for us. Yeah, [00:10:25] just for kicks. And we trialled loads of different things. And he had some ideas and I had some ideas. We put [00:10:30] it all together, but it was costing us peanuts now. Yeah. Because he was doing it all and then all of a [00:10:35] sudden kiss the brand that said it turned that corner. Everyone started to get to know the brand. And at [00:10:40] that time I was teaching sex. I was going out across the country teaching cerec for Sirona, [00:10:45] and people would say, oh, we love your brand, who does your marketing? And I was like, well, [00:10:50] actually, you know, this guy does it. And it was hard. I didn’t want to say it was my brother. So I was like, this guy [00:10:55] does his thing. Why don’t you go like, see him, you know? He could maybe help you. Yeah. And slowly [00:11:00] that propagated his business and started pushing his business off. Yeah. And and. Yeah, you know, I [00:11:05] think we kind of helped each other, really. But back in 2008, 2009 [00:11:10] and, you know, that’s now obviously created the fresh and he’s got his own business in his [00:11:15] own right. And he’s, you know, just tremendous things out and about in the [00:11:20] dental world and in other worlds as well. And and I think that kind of pushed him [00:11:25] to be the guy he is today. Yeah. But yeah, he I would say pinnacle point [00:11:30] and again kiss Devils history was when he took over that marketing side and allowed [00:11:35] us to work together to really build the business.

Dev Patel: Did you always have the [00:11:40] vision of having more than one practice back when you had Flixton? Obviously I saw maybe a clip of [00:11:45] a video of you saying that one day a dream was having to attend a practice and then in central Manchester, which obviously [00:11:50] is a reality today. But was it always a vision to have loads of practices or three, 2 or 3 or what [00:11:55] was the plan?

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, for me it was when I first settled here. Sentinel, you got to remember, the clinic I bought in Flixton [00:12:00] was called Woodson Circle Family Dental Practice. Yeah. And I got a marketing [00:12:05] agency in to kind of wanted to create this brand. And I got a kiss, actually, from [00:12:10] the letters of my name. And I was messing about with, like, how to call what to [00:12:15] call the clinic. And then we branded it and they actually, if you look at the way stencil is written, it’s actually [00:12:20] written in the same font as the Tony and Guy font.

Dev Patel: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Tony, glad to get my haircut. Yeah. And [00:12:25] so I was looking at all these different brands that were out back then that were strong brands that had [00:12:30] branches, and I wanted to create exactly that, like something that I could. You [00:12:35] can’t take woods in a Woodson’s circle funded dental practice in the second one. Yeah, just not gonna work. Yeah. You know, [00:12:40] but Kiss Dental or whatever that brand was going to be, it would work anywhere. It [00:12:45] wasn’t. It wasn’t linked to an area. And so, yeah, right from the start, [00:12:50] it was my plan to open this, build it, open another one, build [00:12:55] it and grow. Really? Yeah. And obviously for me it was a slow process [00:13:00] because it’s time, energy, money. Personal stuff comes in the mix and you know [00:13:05] and and you do sometimes you have levels of steam or you kind of push forward and go hard, [00:13:10] and then you have levels where you back off and you, you know, you may be sometimes a little bit [00:13:15] like more focus on all the things. But it was always growth, growth, growth. [00:13:20] Yeah. And you know, by the time we got to that third clinic and, and obviously yourselves looked at [00:13:25] us, you know, I think we were a really strong brand with a really solid team. And [00:13:30] I think our only issue really was, was how are we going to grow more now? You [00:13:35] know, when how am I going to grow more? Because I was just spreading myself thin.

[BOTH]: Thinner. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And I think the [00:13:40] benefit with, with coming on board with you guys in dental beauty was, was the [00:13:45] education. And to say, okay, you know, this is how you’re going to need to grow [00:13:50] now.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, you’re not going to be able to carry on using the same model you’ve got because [00:13:55] it’s fine. It works with two, three, maybe even four clinics. You want eight, nine, [00:14:00] ten. You want, you want.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know why a legacy. Really? [00:14:05] Then this is how we’re going to do it.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And I think that was the the real important change that I [00:14:10] saw coming on board.

[BOTH]: Really.

Dev Patel: How do you, um. I mean, looking obviously, you know, in terms of [00:14:15] the growth you’ve had over the last 20 years, do you? Is it your expectations of where you would want [00:14:20] to be now or is it behind? Is it ahead of target?

Kailesh Solanki: Like what I’d probably say if [00:14:25] possible, I would have preferred to be like the number ten mark by now. And if I’m going [00:14:30] man. Yeah, yeah I think mean, like for me, like kisses, a great [00:14:35] brand. I think it’s it’s well marketed now. It’s well designed. We did [00:14:40] a redesign about 2020, and I feel like it looks much more modern now and [00:14:45] much nicer, more kind of fresh feel. Um, but for me, yeah, I feel like [00:14:50] we had a little bit of a slow period. I think 2023, 2024, [00:14:55] um, where we didn’t really heavily grow. But I think it was important because we consolidated [00:15:00] and we, we kind of just made sure all these newer clinics would be built. [00:15:05] We’re doing what they needed to do. Yeah. Which I also appreciate that process.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:15:10] yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, and now we’ve built very this year. So we’re at number eight, [00:15:15] and I would like to be probably by 2026, probably [00:15:20] like to kind of ten or at the end of 10 to 2026 at least. Um, [00:15:25] with some key key areas that we, we already have in mind.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, but yeah, [00:15:30] I feel like the growth is going well. I think every clinic we put in it [00:15:35] works. I’m not having to be heavily a part of it which which is the model. [00:15:40] And that needs to be the model. You know, I don’t want to carry on doing dentistry forever. [00:15:45] I love doing the teeth side of it, but I appreciate to oversee it. [00:15:50] I just can’t go into every clinic and do what I do.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And so I feel like, [00:15:55] can I just take my foot off the pedal in that respect and letting the letting the teams [00:16:00] do it and make, you know, make the money, you know, create the environment, [00:16:05] create that, that culture in each clinic. Um, and I feel it’s [00:16:10] working at the moment and guiding them and all the clinicians that we put in as partners, they understand [00:16:15] me, they understand what I expect and understand what Kiss has been for me up to now. [00:16:20] And I feel that they kind of take all that on board and then and then bring it into that clinic. So when I [00:16:25] go into those clinics, I do still feel that warmth, that that happiness, the, you know, the [00:16:30] staff being reasonably happy. You know, never going to get everyone happy. 100% of the time. [00:16:35] Yeah. But you do feel the warmth when you go into even the newer clinics, which I’m super happy about.

Dev Patel: That’s the most important [00:16:40] thing. I mean, obviously I’ve been through the same journey of being a clinician and having to step back and not do clinical. [00:16:45] And I think it’s it’s always a kind of a battle between working on the business and working in the business. [00:16:50] And clinically, you want to work with patients as a fun part of what we all enjoy doing. But eventually it gets to the point where actually [00:16:55] I can’t keep doing the best for the rest of the team if I’m working clinically, doing, you know, X, Y, and Z every day. Right. [00:17:00] So it’s a tough, tough one to battle.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, it’s a super struggle. And because I like doing the teeth.

[BOTH]: Bit.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s [00:17:05] harder for me. I mean I mean, I’m not saying that you did it, by the way. No disrespect. [00:17:10]

[BOTH]: Good for you. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: But I just think it’s like, uh. It’s because I’ve [00:17:15] done it for so long.

[BOTH]: Yeah. It’s like it’s it’s a part of that. Yeah. It’s like.

Dev Patel: It’s easier.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s easy. I love sitting [00:17:20] in there and just cracking on and doing a set of veneers or whatever it is and, and, and, and on Kingdom [00:17:25] Castle at that point.

[BOTH]: Yeah, I mean Yeah. Uh.

Kailesh Solanki: Nothing fazes me. Um, [00:17:30] but but. Yeah, you are right. I’ve. I’ve had to step back. Um, even though I’m doing quite a bit of [00:17:35] clinical now, I think my master plan probably in the next coming, coming years is, is to lay off a [00:17:40] bit more clinical each, each year and really focus on cases and maybe speed that [00:17:45] growth up.

[BOTH]: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Being like you are more hands on with how [00:17:50] that business runs as opposed to running in the business. I think that’s [00:17:55] where you see the difference. That’s where you see like the difference. And I can see it [00:18:00] and I’m running out of time.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: If I’m being brutally honest, you know, I’m, I’m doing [00:18:05] bits on my laptop and sending emails like, in between patients.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s just.

[BOTH]: Not counted. [00:18:10] Yeah. It’s not.

Kailesh Solanki: Productive. So. So yeah, I think that’s probably going to be the next step. [00:18:15]

Dev Patel: No. Great. I think it’s, uh, it’s part of a natural transition anyway. Kind of as you kind of grow, especially [00:18:20] after you get 8 or 9, ten clinics, you physically can’t, you know, do both of them at the same time. And even though it’s easier [00:18:25] and more comfortable for us to see patients, and actually you’ve got your, you know, you’ve got one person to manage, you’ve got your patient and obviously a [00:18:30] nurse, and that’s it really. Yeah. So you start managing the whole teams and you have to start getting involved with all the other stuff. Right. Which is outside of our [00:18:35] comfort zone, isn’t it. Really. Yeah.

[BOTH]: Of course.

Dev Patel: It’s easier to just do what we do.

[BOTH]: Better.

Kailesh Solanki: About you. Insane. [00:18:40] Okay, this is happening. That’s happening. And I’m thinking. I just want.

[BOTH]: To see my patient.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, actually, I mean, this is killing [00:18:45] me off, but you’re right, you know, to be a leader. Yeah, you’ve got to [00:18:50] go lead, haven’t you? And ultimately, like, I feel like, you know, there’s been [00:18:55] times as well. And and that’s why, you know, having this conversation with you is really important because there’s [00:19:00] been times in the last coming couple, I probably say in the last year where I haven’t led [00:19:05] as much as I wanted to, just because I’m so in the tools and and you [00:19:10] feel it then because and you, you speak to staff and I speak to the staff still now a lot and [00:19:15] they’ll say, okay, this happened and this happened and this happened. I was like, oh, why didn’t you tell me, you know? And [00:19:20] they’re a bit like, well, you know, you’re busy. And I was like, I know, but I kind of really need to know these things.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Because I [00:19:25] can’t I can’t help if I don’t know.

[BOTH]: Yeah. You know. So.

Dev Patel: No, it’s a tough one, I think. [00:19:30] Um, but when I got a super strength, I actually from outside anyway, is finding talent [00:19:35] kind of guiding them and mentoring them and train them up. Right. And I think that skill set is very unique. [00:19:40] Dentistry. I know you’re very good dentistry, but I’m not saying not like anyone can do it. Um, whether it [00:19:45] be fast or slow, they can do it eventually. And it’s something that’s that we can always get. But one of your [00:19:50] very unique talents is actually building a brand. By building a team around you that all can do basically what you do [00:19:55] to a good level. So I think working that super strength and kind of pushing more than that would be probably better [00:20:00] for the brand, for the company.

[BOTH]: Going forward, right?

Kailesh Solanki: My favourite thing is, is like the BT scheme.

Dev Patel: That’s amazing, [00:20:05] isn’t it?

Kailesh Solanki: You know, I believe like having this BT scheme and we’ve had it for like nearly [00:20:10] seven years now and the amount of clinicians that come through it. And you’re right, you know, we look at some [00:20:15] of our really kind of lead clinicians that are now part owners of other clinics. We’ve [00:20:20] got course got Nabeel. And, you know, these guys started as vets. Yeah. [00:20:25] You know, with us and and the quality of what they produce. Some of these guys produced better quality [00:20:30] work than me, which I’m super proud of and super happy about, because it’s not about [00:20:35] me. Yeah, it’s about like using that guidance to making the best dentist they can be. Yeah. [00:20:40] And also, you know, making the best businessmen, that business people that can be. Because dentistry is a business. [00:20:45]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And, you know, I feel like learning both or having both hats allows [00:20:50] me to really educate these guys on both aspects of dentistry. And then then it’s nice, [00:20:55] isn’t it? Because then we get another partner and we can put someone in another clip that we trust, and [00:21:00] we know that they’re going to look after our patients, but they’re also going to look out after the PNL, and they’re going to make sure [00:21:05] it’s profitable. And all the things that has to be is, you know.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:21:10]

Kailesh Solanki: So, you know, I genuinely believe, like the vet scheme has been super great for me. [00:21:15] It’s been allowed me to keep fresh, keep young, keep understanding dentistry so I can talk [00:21:20] to them about.

[BOTH]: It.

Kailesh Solanki: But then also the business side as.

[BOTH]: Well.

Dev Patel: Just out of interest, I’ve actually asked this [00:21:25] before, but with the partner model. Um, did you have that in mind before we did a partnership together, that you [00:21:30] would actually have partners and put them in a new clinics, or was that something that we kind of like, you know, kind of made [00:21:35] up ourselves together when we did a partnership? I think it’s quite different model, isn’t it? No one does it really. You know, in the UK [00:21:40] generally.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: It is a different model. And, and the reason I initially did it, to [00:21:45] be honest with you, it was that was we were growing clinics. We’d gone to the three clinics and [00:21:50] obviously I’m not there all the time. Um, even when I was a part of Dental Beauty.

[BOTH]: So [00:21:55] yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Having these two that understood exactly how I wanted things to be done [00:22:00] and they then ran these things and, you know, you’re in this situation where now I [00:22:05] might be off for a week, but you’re my lead clinician there, and you’re my lead clinician there. And [00:22:10] I can trust you guys because I know it’s going to be taken care of. And then as these boots grew. [00:22:15] Yeah, 100%, you know I want to join a clinic. We can do a clinic together. [00:22:20] Yeah. You know, when was it, like, going to be a partnership, exact model that you then [00:22:25] set up and we kind of discuss? Probably not. Possibly not. It might have been. I’ll put you in as a lead clinician. [00:22:30] I’ll give you a small percentage of the business, but you help run it with me.

[BOTH]: Yeah, sure.

Kailesh Solanki: It could have been that.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:22:35]

Kailesh Solanki: That was probably more in.

[BOTH]: My head. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And to give them a larger piece of the pie, which is what we do now. [00:22:40] Yeah. And what they have like, obviously a lot more incentive in and a lot more incentive out. [00:22:45] I feel works even better.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, I feel like the model is really fair on everyone. [00:22:50] You know, it’s a fair of my associate who has given me lots of time and energy over the years, [00:22:55] and I want to reward them, and I want the business to reward them.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And obviously, we want them to stay.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:23:00]

Kailesh Solanki: And so, you know, it ticks all the boxes I think. So I feel like the model we’ve got now [00:23:05] where we we work it, we give them like that high percentage. They [00:23:10] they nurture that place is is definitely a winner.

[BOTH]: Good.

Dev Patel: I think it’s, uh, [00:23:15] it’s quite clear as well. You know, there’s been over the years, probably 20 years, you know, some high end brands [00:23:20] that have been kind of like, you know, up there with kiss and they’ve kind of come and gone and some of them still there, but none of them really [00:23:25] gone out past the 3 or 4 sites. They’ve all kind of plateaued there because of the fact it’s always been about the original [00:23:30] founder being the only person involved and never having that extra kind of next step of how to get to eight to [00:23:35] 10 or 12 afterwards. So I think you’re breaking that boundary, you know, in terms of the high end brands in the UK, which is great, [00:23:40] but the model obviously works. And I’m glad that all the culture and all the things that you wanted are still there [00:23:45] in all the clinics and the patients now, you’ve now treating double the amount of patients you did five years ago or three.

[BOTH]: Years. [00:23:50]

Dev Patel: Ago, right. So you’re actually helping more people get their smiles back, which is obviously the whole point of kiss, right?

[BOTH]: So yeah, of course it’s great [00:23:55] for us.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s amazing. Like, you know, and for me personally, it’s just nice to go to different [00:24:00] towns and see your brand there and see like it’s growing and also still gain keep [00:24:05] that reputation. Um, and that’s what the scheme is for me. It’s a, [00:24:10] it’s, you know, and the old kind of analogy Like, you look at, like football clubs and I’m [00:24:15] not even into football.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You looked at like what Alex Ferguson did with all the young kids, [00:24:20] and he grew them from the young. They all they played in these like [00:24:25] different foundations, came up to the top team. And then he’d nurture these kids [00:24:30] to be those players.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And like, that’s kind of like what? And stay with the club.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know [00:24:35] what I mean? And that’s kind of like, that’s my. That was my vision in my head. Like, I want to make sure these guys understand [00:24:40] exactly how this is exactly how people should be treated. Yeah. You know, how patient should [00:24:45] be respected, what type of treatments and what quality is all about. And then hopefully [00:24:50] capture that and go right, do it over there.

[BOTH]: Yeah yeah yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: With [00:24:55] this brand. And then if you can do that and you can just grow that way, you’re [00:25:00] never reducing quality. You’re always just growing something that everyone is sustainable. [00:25:05]

[BOTH]: Yeah. And it’s scalable.

Dev Patel: And obviously you’ve been focusing more on the North West region for now, which has [00:25:10] got Liverpool now, which is the first one I have outside the Manchester area. What’s next? Terms of like, you know, places [00:25:15] that you want to ideally get to.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: For us I feel like we’ve done a lot of Cheshire, [00:25:20] which has been great, but it’s been it’s been a slower build, I feel. Um, you [00:25:25] know, we did Manchester in our Manchester. It was, was booming and it always is very, very busy. Um, [00:25:30] and our Liverpool site has worked really well. So I feel like for us now I would [00:25:35] want to do more cities.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And so, you know, our next step I would like to go [00:25:40] maybe over the pond and go to maybe Sheffield or Leeds would be great for us, I believe. Um, [00:25:45] and then like more into kind of even like the Lancashire side. And so I know we’ve [00:25:50] done bury but we could potentially do somewhere like, you know a bit further [00:25:55] along like Chester or Preston, a bigger city or um, you know, [00:26:00] even even going across to like places like, I don’t know, like even [00:26:05] further up like the, like Lancaster and the Lake District where we get a lot of patients from the Columbia [00:26:10] side. Oh, wow. Um, and so for them to travel all the way here, there’s [00:26:15] gotta be. There’s got to be a want for that kind of treatments and maybe those areas as well. [00:26:20] But yeah, like probably bigger cities for us to start with now. Yeah. Um, where we can really grow. [00:26:25]

Dev Patel: And where do you see yourself? Or what were your aspirations for this in five years time?

Kailesh Solanki: Um, for me, [00:26:30] like probably five years, it would be really nice to be kind of 15 plus clinics. I think.

Dev Patel: It’d [00:26:35] be quite.

Kailesh Solanki: Easy. Yeah. I’m thinking, like, realistic, you know, like like, you know, it costs a lot [00:26:40] to build each clinic and getting the right partners and stuff like that. So obviously we could [00:26:45] grow faster. Of course we could. Yeah. But for me it’s quality. Quality. It’s that [00:26:50] it’s the person that comes in as the partner. You know, I think all of these things make a real big difference. [00:26:55] And some of these growth and the growth back with my existing partners, they might want to have two great [00:27:00] clinics, but for new partners it’s just kind of how that grows. Yeah. And so for me yeah 15 [00:27:05] plus clinics would be amazing. Um, Uh, probably be doing one 1 [00:27:10] to 2 days of dentistry and then the rest of it just making sure these all these clinics [00:27:15] run well. Good. Yeah. Yeah. And yes, I think still being I think the key thing is it’s been my [00:27:20] baby since 2005. Yeah. And so just ensuring that, you know, I’m still a, [00:27:25] a force to be reckoned with in case. And everyone understands like this is how it needs to [00:27:30] be done. And and someone’s there just to ensure like not someone me essentially [00:27:35] there to ensure the quality is still maintained. And yeah the people it’s more and it’s more the people [00:27:40] relationships are still maintained and the staff is still happy. Yeah. Because that’s [00:27:45] as I’ve said, like right at the start where I believe our, our business has grown [00:27:50] and the reason our business has grown because everyone wants it to grow. Yeah. Anyone that worked for me [00:27:55] always wanted kids to grow. Yeah. You know, no one was, like, jealous of the situation or, you [00:28:00] know, like, thinking this isn’t for me or I want to leave here. [00:28:05] You know, everyone was always very, very positive about I want this to do well. Yeah. [00:28:10] And I think when they got a team like that, it’s gonna naturally do well.

Dev Patel: Yeah. For sure. So you’ve obviously got [00:28:15] a very unique scheme, which is basically a trainee dentist training dentist coming up out of university, [00:28:20] then wants to come straight to you rather than doing the traditional PhD scheme under the NHS. Tell me a bit [00:28:25] more about how it works and why do you kind of build it in the first place?

Kailesh Solanki: Okay, so um, I think the main [00:28:30] reason I built it the first place actually was, um, because I was struggling [00:28:35] getting associate’s in that not to my standard. And I think that’s the wrong [00:28:40] way to describe it, because there’s some great associates out there in the world. But you got to appreciate, like, kiss [00:28:45] works in a very specific way. Yeah, yeah. Um, the way we run our free consultations, [00:28:50] the way we kind of, I suppose, design our treatment planning [00:28:55] and and how we treat the patients and that kind of patient journey, you know, and [00:29:00] we’ve, we’ve kind of home that patient journey in over many, many years. It tried to get a streamlined [00:29:05] and also, you know, as I suppose as amazing [00:29:10] for the patient. Really. Yeah, yeah. And then you get an associate in and you say, okay, [00:29:15] like come and work for me. We’re busy. And they’re like, oh, great. And then, then I [00:29:20] might say, well, I don’t want to do a free consultation because I believe my time is really valuable.

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And I’m trying to [00:29:25] explain saying, well, your time is valuable, but it’s only as valuable as the patient sitting in your chair. Yeah. You know, [00:29:30] and then they’re going. Yeah. But I’ve been to five years of done university. I’ve done all these courses. [00:29:35]

[BOTH]: I’m a very, very.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, I’m scratching my head thinking, you don’t get this.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And because [00:29:40] you don’t get it, it’s really. It’s a really hard sell.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: So dentist and then the dentist comes [00:29:45] in and then I would always play a long game. I always play always have. It’s the way I’ve done [00:29:50] it. And so patient comes in. They might have a problem I might fix that problem. But they might have another 3 to 4 problems. [00:29:55] That problem might fix that. They’ll say, do you know what. No charge. Yeah. Yeah. You just chill. [00:30:00] Come back. You’ve got these other three things to do, but the three things might be, I don’t know, whatever, [00:30:05] but I’ve now got a patient for life because that guy’s trusted me, because I’ve done something [00:30:10] just nice.

[BOTH]: My.

Kailesh Solanki: Person, they’ve come back and I’ve now done [00:30:15] some treatment for them, and now I’ve got a patient again, just kind of building that culture [00:30:20] into a dentist that doesn’t understand and has never done that. No chance.

Dev Patel: Yeah. Bad habits. [00:30:25]

[BOTH]: Right. Bad habits.

Kailesh Solanki: And it’s not even bad habits just the way they are.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, and that’s the way I am. [00:30:30] And but it’s worked and it’s worked in in droves. So essentially that’s [00:30:35] why are we so busy. And so then you get a VPN and it’s completely different because [00:30:40] they have no understanding of what it should be like or what it shouldn’t be. Yeah, sure. So anything a free consultation is [00:30:45] normal.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: They think, you know, looking after that patient and maybe saying that reinvent charge. [00:30:50] I’m not going to charge you today. But you know what? You need a new crowd. So come in. I’m going to do a new crowd for you. And that’s going to be, I [00:30:55] don’t know, seven, eight, £900.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And the patient holds their goals for the ground because [00:31:00] he’s. Oh, he’s such a nice guy. Didn’t even charge me.

[BOTH]: To.

Kailesh Solanki: Put it in today. You know, when those little [00:31:05] things matter. Matter?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: 100% matter. The patient who signs up [00:31:10] for the 20 grand of treatment plan won’t be paying you £20,000. They’ll begrudge [00:31:15] you if you then put in nominal charging, maybe three quarters of the way through for £100 [00:31:20] or something.

[BOTH]: Yeah, they’re.

Kailesh Solanki: £100 that.

[BOTH]: Way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, and so it’s it’s understanding [00:31:25] patience. It’s understanding kind of like how to look after people. And the scheme [00:31:30] I think does three things. It really, really helps the dentist [00:31:35] understand how to speak, how to communicate with patients [00:31:40] on a really better level. Private dentistry is very different to NHS dentistry. [00:31:45] And everyone knows that. You know, you speak to all dentists and I’m a private dentist. I’m an NHS. [00:31:50]

[BOTH]: Dentist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Well yeah get that. But actually can you just speak to someone.

Dev Patel: The human beings.

Kailesh Solanki: And [00:31:55] they’re human beings. They’re not NHS on the for private rent on the floor. And so [00:32:00] essentially, though, how do you understand the communication of the different [00:32:05] people? Yeah. How can you communicate with everyone from the little old day that comes is 95 [00:32:10] years old? That probably doesn’t want anything doing. You know, she’s only just got a [00:32:15] few more years left and she’s still got a few teeth in the battle. She’s gotta keep on to the 20 year old kid who wants, [00:32:20] like, a full wall to wall seven ears. And how do you have different conversations with these people? So [00:32:25] communication is the key. Really it’s 100% the BT Group. Yeah. I think the other thing [00:32:30] is treatment planning. You know, you may and I may see the [00:32:35] same patient.

Dev Patel: But different.

Kailesh Solanki: Plans, completely different team plans. And why are they different. Yeah yeah yeah. [00:32:40] Which is better I’m not saying any better. Yeah, but what I’m saying is there is a reason why certain things are done [00:32:45] in certain ways. Because of what the patient’s expectations are. Yeah, yeah. And if you get that treatment [00:32:50] quite wrong, you fail the patient. Yeah. And so for me, it’s like understanding [00:32:55] about Out design and smiles, understanding about looking after the patient’s whole [00:33:00] mouth as a full yeah, singular thing as opposed to individual teeth. Dentistry [00:33:05] and like teaching the how to treat upon those cases, you [00:33:10] know. And that’s why my books are so successful because they’ve understood that they’ve understood [00:33:15] the treatment plan inside of it. And so, like, you’re going to factor in, you know, that they can do [00:33:20] the treatment planning, they can communicate with the patients. And then the last thing is [00:33:25] that business side, you know, everyone forgets about, everyone always thinks, well, we shouldn’t talk about money and we [00:33:30] shouldn’t do this. And we dentists, we clinicians, but Christ.

Dev Patel: It’s the selling product. Myself. It’s [00:33:35] like.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, patients, you know, no one’s gonna walk in. I’m gonna say when you need 20 plus [00:33:40] in veneers and they’re gonna walk out, I’m gonna do them and they’re gonna go and pay the bill. [00:33:45] Yeah. This doesn’t happen.

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Does it happen? So unless you have the conversation and go, it’s [00:33:50] gonna cost you this. This is how you can pay. And this is like the situation. This is where we’re at. [00:33:55] It is gonna fall down.

Dev Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And ultimately, they need to understand [00:34:00] those basics of dentistry. Yeah. And then also the basics of why do I charge x [00:34:05] amount for something? Yeah. Do you understand? Do you understand why that person there cost me what this chair [00:34:10] costs me? Do you understand what this is like? I love bills and all the fundamentals. [00:34:15] Which creates the price of the crowd. Yeah. Or creates the price of adventure or whatever [00:34:20] it is?

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Because sometimes they see this money coming in and they [00:34:25] just think it’s great.

Dev Patel: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: But actually, no longer than that. Now it isn’t amazing. [00:34:30] Yeah. At times. And so they got to appreciate that. And they’ve got to understand that I can’t just, [00:34:35] you know, have that issue where I don’t want to say I don’t want to say it, I don’t want to say it. And I’ll just say a price which is even lower. [00:34:40] Yeah. Because you do that and then you’re like, scratching your head thinking, we’ve made no money. Now you’re killing [00:34:45] me off.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know what I mean? Yeah. And so understanding those basic fundamentals, I [00:34:50] think, is just key. Yeah. And so if you learn all those three aspects, [00:34:55] like you said, the dentist is easy.

Dev Patel: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Any monkey can [00:35:00] do. The dentist. Yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah. Giving them time. And like you said, the muscle might do it fast. Some [00:35:05] might do it slow, some will be a little bit better than others. Yeah. And quality is one of those things either [00:35:10] beholder and all that kind of stuff. But ultimately it can be done. Yeah, it’s the other four [00:35:15] three fundamentals that no one teaches.

Dev Patel: And how long is the program lasting? So like if I was going [00:35:20] to come to a clinic, I’ve just finished university or to finish my PhD, how’s it work? So is it like a one year, two year for a year?

Kailesh Solanki: So [00:35:25] I generally do a two year program where year one, there’ll be a lot of shadowing.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:35:30]

Kailesh Solanki: And so not just myself but primarily most vets will shadow me a lot. [00:35:35] Um, and then we’ll get them to our other kind of specialist fields. Like if they want to show [00:35:40] an orthodontist, go to an orthodontist, they can shadow doughnut shadow with their dentist. We’ve got a really high [00:35:45] end in the dentist. They can shadow and they can sort of hone their skills on where they want to be. Yeah. So whether [00:35:50] it be general dentistry, cosmetic dentistry, endodontics, prosthodontics. It doesn’t really [00:35:55] matter. Yeah. We’ve got the skill sets in the group that we can shadow. Yeah, but it’s a lot of shadowing year [00:36:00] one with some dentistry and that dentistry will be very simple, but basic dentistry. [00:36:05] Moving on to more cosmetic dentistry as the year progresses. Moving on to them, [00:36:10] doing their own cases, you know, guided.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And then we get them into year two. [00:36:15] And year two is really then learning how to be an associate. [00:36:20]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah. You know like now guys like, you know, you now gotta have a list of patients. [00:36:25] You’re going to have new patients and want to see how things progress now. Want to [00:36:30] see how busy your book can get. Yeah I want to see how you’re guiding yourself. [00:36:35] Are you pushing yourself on social media? You becoming a clinician that’s going to have their [00:36:40] own view and their own vision and their own kind of patient base. [00:36:45] And so now by year two, it’s still a salaried position. Year one in [00:36:50] year two. But year two. Salary goes up a little bit. And it’s not really about the [00:36:55] salary and the money year on year two.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Because what I’m trying to do is teach you how to do [00:37:00] that. Well, so you get to the end of year two and now you’re fully fledged associate [00:37:05] and the money will speak for itself.

[BOTH]: Yep.

Kailesh Solanki: And I’ve [00:37:10] got no concern about that. Yeah. All my teams do very very well.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: After their [00:37:15] trip is over. And if you ever spoke to any of them, they would. They would say. And you’ve seen the numbers regardless. [00:37:20] Yeah. And so that I’m not too worried about. But as long as the dentist isn’t [00:37:25] worried about it. Yeah it works.

Dev Patel: I think it’s quite a difficult one for most young inventors [00:37:30] these days. Right. Because they happen to essentially give up potentially some not a huge amount of earnings, [00:37:35] but, you know, salary for two years and not getting that, you know, self-employed income if they were doing [00:37:40] their normal associate work. It’s almost like doing a for three years. They do a potentially NHS one and then [00:37:45] doing two more years of you. View, but the benefits of investing themselves is ten times greater. [00:37:50] And I tell you, I’m going to do the same thing. If you’ve got one thing to do the first 3 or 4 years, it’s investing courses in yourself, and [00:37:55] they’ll pay ten times more than anything else you can do in dentistry, right? Rather than trying to work out like, you know, different [00:38:00] percentage of your before you split or your, your day rate or whatever it may be. Um, but some of them just don’t get it [00:38:05] in mind. And I think, right, like, you’ve got to get the right mindset of someone who’s actually willing to invest, willing to learn, and then they’ll just be [00:38:10] flying off to 2 or 3 years I’ve had.

Kailesh Solanki: Honestly, I interview a lot.

Dev Patel: I know, yeah, I.

[BOTH]: Know.

Dev Patel: We mentioned [00:38:15] last night.

Kailesh Solanki: And you know, ones that come in and tell me what they should, but I [00:38:20] should be paying them. And that’s actually my head saying, this is not this is not a negotiation.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:38:25]

Kailesh Solanki: You are going to see value in what we’re going to provide as a group.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And the value [00:38:30] is, is is as again is is very easy to see when you see the likes of course [00:38:35] Nabeel, um, Nelly, Molly.

[BOTH]: Calum.

Kailesh Solanki: Callum, [00:38:40] all of these guys who are earning probably I would [00:38:45] say without talking numbers, easily the top 1% of what [00:38:50] in the country of plenty certain.

Dev Patel: Of any.

[BOTH]: Age?

Kailesh Solanki: At any age. Yeah. You know, regardless of [00:38:55] whether 1 or 2 years out. Yeah. You know, these guys are killing it financially, [00:39:00] but they’re killing it financially because I’ve given them every single tool to ensure the [00:39:05] quality is met.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: They can communicate with the patients and they understand the business.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:39:10]

Kailesh Solanki: And for those three fundamentals essentially is what we teach. And so [00:39:15] when someone comes to me and says, well, it’s a low amount of money and I don’t know if I can do it, [00:39:20] then don’t do it.

[BOTH]: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Fully. Don’t do it. Yeah. Because you’ve got to be fully invested in this. [00:39:25] And for me, it’s. You shouldn’t even think about that salary that [00:39:30] I’m paying you. Yeah. Against what you could earn. Because what you could earn will always be capped. [00:39:35]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Because you won’t have the skill set to go past that cap.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: That’s true. Yeah. So what I’m [00:39:40] teaching you is to kind of exceed that cap so enormously, like you won’t [00:39:45] even realise. Yeah, but you don’t know what you don’t know.

Dev Patel: I think, though sometimes I don’t [00:39:50] know if you do mention this to, you know, something like dentist, but that same course of what you’re teaching [00:39:55] them, whether it be, you know, a two day ethical selling course or a five day course of implant mentor or whatever may [00:40:00] be all your stuff in teaching them is like doing 5 or 6 one year courses in two years, and that [00:40:05] would have cost them hundreds of thousands of pounds, so that actually the salary they’re getting, plus the savings [00:40:10] they’re making for the actually net net is a huge savings, isn’t it?

[BOTH]: Yes.

Dev Patel: And they’re going to grow ten more [00:40:15] in two years time. Right.

Kailesh Solanki: So you said to me before you said.

[BOTH]: I.

Dev Patel: Wish I had done it that way, if I, if I was, you [00:40:20] know, at that age. But obviously I’m a bit off that now.

Kailesh Solanki: But you said to me at the start like how, how did you start a curse at [00:40:25] such a young age? Yeah, because I did loads of courses. So I did old pole tips and three courses [00:40:30] in over two years as well. I was a bit.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: So, so each one it [00:40:35] was like, you know like 15 grand here, 15 grand there, 15 grand there. So whatever I was doing, [00:40:40] I was just throwing back in courses. I had no money.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: So essentially, like, be that guy. [00:40:45]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And also doing costs is great. It doesn’t teach you any experience. Then you have to [00:40:50] do all those treatments. You need the patience to do them.

[BOTH]: Yeah yeah yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And then do enough of [00:40:55] them to get good at it.

[BOTH]: Yes.

Kailesh Solanki: So it’s a vicious circle. So, like, which bitch do you want? [00:41:00] Do you want me to then be able to look after you to ensure that all this is going to go well [00:41:05] for you? If you have a problem with any of these treatments you want to do. And there I’d [00:41:10] be. Comfort by the.

[BOTH]: Kit.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, yeah, I’m starting you out of things.

Dev Patel: And who else do you get off on?

[BOTH]: And are you getting out upfront? [00:41:15] Yeah. So you get all.

Kailesh Solanki: This wrapped up in one thing and still get.

[BOTH]: Paid? Yeah.

Dev Patel: You [00:41:20] have no pain.

Kailesh Solanki: No pain? No. Well, it’s hard because nowadays [00:41:25] dentistry is deemed as this profession. They go in, they earn big bucks, they see people [00:41:30] like me maybe driving around, and they’re somewhere in that and they’re saying, well, I want to be that guy.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:41:35] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: By the way, this guy has taken 22 years to.

[BOTH]: Get to this. Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Don’t be fooled [00:41:40] by the situation and be fooled by the imagery in this vision, because it’s not [00:41:45] always been like that. Yeah, and there have been tough times and I’ve had to do what [00:41:50] these guys did.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: They don’t see.

[BOTH]: It.

Dev Patel: Um, so tell me, in the last 20 years, [00:41:55] what’s been the biggest kind of hurdle that you have to overcome?

[BOTH]: Okay.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, I suppose [00:42:00] we spoke initially, and I told you, like, when we was growing the business quickly, and [00:42:05] that was quite a hurdle. You know, it was a financial hurdle in which we had to get through [00:42:10] and get past. But even past that hurdle, I think, you know, in 2000 and [00:42:15] sure, it was like 2012. Okay. Um, Christmas came [00:42:20] shut down all the clinics. We had the three clinics by that point. And, and [00:42:25] on Boxing Day, on the day after Boxing Day, I got a phone call [00:42:30] from the alarm company, and they say, and your labs going off in your Flixton clinic. So [00:42:35] it must be, you know, something of nothing. It was. It was quite well secured, the clinic. So [00:42:40] I don’t think it was going to be anything major. So I needed to get in my car, drive down there. I opened the door and steam [00:42:45] hits me. Oh! Whoa. What’s going on? What’s that? And [00:42:50] all the windows. The whole practice was all steamed up. Less weird. So I opened [00:42:55] the door as I walk in. The only way I can describe [00:43:00] it, it’s like a like a tsunami hit the business. And the whole bottom [00:43:05] floor, top floor. All waters coming through all the ceilings. [00:43:10] It was hot water, so it must have been a hot water that had burst, [00:43:15] but the hot water just kept generating. So everything was like [00:43:20] vaporising the computers, the CT scanners, the dental [00:43:25] chairs. It was in every single room of the ground floor. So then we were upstairs to the top [00:43:30] floor. It was a leak that had occurred in the lab that we had currently at the clinic. [00:43:35] This this pipe had burst and it was going over it. So the whole [00:43:40] the top floor wasn’t as bad. It was pretty damaged, but the bottom floor was ruined. And [00:43:45] that’s ruined.

[BOTH]: Ruined.

Kailesh Solanki: Basically you couldn’t you physically, I [00:43:50] would say the business is gone.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: That was our only clinic that I think we would have been done. Oh, [00:43:55] because you couldn’t work in there?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: It was.

[BOTH]: Gone. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: So obviously [00:44:00] what we’re going to do calls a meeting, um, and get all [00:44:05] my stuff to Manchester. And I said, guys, what a horrendous flood in [00:44:10] Flixton.

[BOTH]: Was this a.

Dev Patel: Boxing Day or is this after Christmas.

Kailesh Solanki: Just after. So this is Boxing Day after [00:44:15] boxing, I found out. Get everyone back on the first, first day of Jan.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And and [00:44:20] I did call this big meeting and at that time, we still have a decent level of staff to three clinics.

[BOTH]: And. [00:44:25]

Kailesh Solanki: So on and so forth, and some really kind of fundamental key staff members. So [00:44:30] everyone comes in, we have this meeting and I say, I don’t know how we’re going to do this, but logistically, [00:44:35] we need to move all our operations to our two existing clinics.

Dev Patel: Altrincham [00:44:40] and City Centre.

Kailesh Solanki: Altrincham City Centre and everyone to start working from there and [00:44:45] need all the books moving, all the patients, changing, making, making the [00:44:50] patients understand what’s going on. I think the clinic will be closed for 3 to 4 months.

[BOTH]: Wow.

Kailesh Solanki: And [00:44:55] so there at that point, I suppose that’s when your team [00:45:00] massively matters. You know, the people that work for you, the people that, like, care about the business. And [00:45:05] everyone really cared and everyone really pulled together and made that work. [00:45:10] And, you know, it was a really tough time for the business. That and probably for a good 3 or [00:45:15] 4 months, everyone was running around. Everyone was like working in in places they didn’t want to work in. Some [00:45:20] people were like changing childcare and all sorts of things were going on, and we were [00:45:25] trying to essentially just make sure this business came in on functioning.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, and [00:45:30] it did, and it worked really well. And then we kind of refer to flick, obviously flicks that had [00:45:35] to be completely redone.

[BOTH]: Um, did.

Dev Patel: You? You didn’t rebrand it at that time. Might you just get the same [00:45:40] brand?

Kailesh Solanki: You kept the same brand. You just basically, just as I said, just rebuild the.

[BOTH]: Inside of the business. [00:45:45] Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Um, and yeah, it was it was quite. It [00:45:50] was really sad when it happened. And it was a really happy time when we when everything came [00:45:55] back, went back to normal. Yeah. And you realise the people that are around you were around you and would always [00:46:00] help you kind of situation. Yeah. So it was like it was happy for that. Um, but I would say if [00:46:05] that was probably the biggest disaster.

[BOTH]: Oh, wow.

Kailesh Solanki: I never faced.

[BOTH]: It.

Dev Patel: I mean, just for perspective, [00:46:10] because maybe not everyone knows this, but you went from essentially only 13 chairs to eight, so literally, [00:46:15] like, almost half capacity within the space of, you know.

[BOTH]: Yeah. We had.

Kailesh Solanki: Four chairs.

[BOTH]: In it.

Dev Patel: I’ll get it.

[BOTH]: For.

Kailesh Solanki: Only [00:46:20] a chair for chairs in Manchester and two chairs.

[BOTH]: Here.

Dev Patel: Oh seven head.

[BOTH]: Six [00:46:25] six. Okay.

Kailesh Solanki: Five chairs.

Dev Patel: So you went home? Was half capacity over one week.

Kailesh Solanki: They were [00:46:30] doing.

[BOTH]: That extra late.

Dev Patel: Nights and weekends.

[BOTH]: And all that.

Kailesh Solanki: And and, you know, everyone [00:46:35] really pulled together.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah. What about.

Dev Patel: What about Covid then? Because obviously that’s a kind of similar [00:46:40] situation where like, you know, just shut down one day and next thing you know, the two months to come back together again and you have to rebrand and do that time. [00:46:45]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Dev Patel: What was the thought behind that? Because that was obviously a big, big kind of change.

[BOTH]: When.

Kailesh Solanki: Covid happened. You kind [00:46:50] of you kind of can take stock kind of like anything like you said, you know, you’re working in the [00:46:55] business all the time. You can’t really.

[BOTH]: See.

Kailesh Solanki: The vision. You can’t see your focus. You can’t see outside in. [00:47:00] And so obviously during that time I did and I saw outside in and I was a little bit like, you [00:47:05] know, we look a bit dated and we’re trying to be this brand. [00:47:10] You know, we, we want to we want to grow.

[BOTH]: Mhm.

Kailesh Solanki: And and [00:47:15] it really kind of like sunk home that you know we’ve got time now. [00:47:20] You know we’re not making any money. That’s fine. And but to that [00:47:25] point by 2020 we were pretty cash rich business so he could stomach the loss. Yeah. You [00:47:30] know, the government helped a lot with the furlough. Yeah. We had a few staff members [00:47:35] working. Obviously I wasn’t we weren’t the dentist, weren’t earning any money. But past that, I could structure [00:47:40] the business so it would still tick along.

[BOTH]: That’s good.

Kailesh Solanki: And so then it was just really kind [00:47:45] of understanding what was our next step here. And, you know, as then things started kind [00:47:50] of moving back in and things reopen, you can very much see people [00:47:55] that people’s mindset had changed. They were thinking, oh, I can’t go abroad. [00:48:00] I’m more based here. I’m now in the UK. What things do [00:48:05] I want to get done? What do I want to do? And I care about myself more. I want to get my teeth done. I want to, [00:48:10] you know. People were exercising more. They were outside more, weren’t they? They were kind of thinking. So [00:48:15] for me, it was just like, I understand why we’ve got this boom. [00:48:20] But if we got this boom, let’s now.

[BOTH]: Take a bite out of it.

Kailesh Solanki: Yeah, yeah, take advantage of [00:48:25] it.

[BOTH]: Showcases again. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Rebuild what we had, you know, to a better [00:48:30] standard. And at that point, just to be super transparent and open. [00:48:35] I was looking at selling the business pre-COVID and the sale fell through because [00:48:40] of Covid. And it wasn’t to yourselves. And so that app actually [00:48:45] didn’t want to sell after that. I was like, right, I’m done. That sale went through. It was it [00:48:50] was a touch of fate. And so for me now I’m going to grow this business myself.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:48:55] yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, but I’m going to rebrand it and I’m going to make it amazing again. And, you know, we spoke about [00:49:00] at times in business, you’ve got those real bursts of energy where you’re like, I’m gonna do this and [00:49:05] kill it. I’m gonna do everything I want to do. And then there’s times where you kind of just feel a little bit like [00:49:10] down hearted.

[BOTH]: Like.

Kailesh Solanki: Ground down by business. And I think Covid, like, [00:49:15] gave me that spur to go, you know, ground down those miles probably sell in, you know. And then [00:49:20] I dislike burst of energy and a little bit of a rethink. And I was like, I’m going to grow this and [00:49:25] I’m going to do it well and I’m going to rebrand. And that’s why we did the rebrand. And then you [00:49:30] came along and it like changed my mindset again, but in a better way because I [00:49:35] was I was motivated then at.

[BOTH]: Least.

Kailesh Solanki: I think I was selling for all the wrong reasons. The previous. [00:49:40]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And then you came along and I was then wanting to go into something bigger and [00:49:45] better with the right people.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: It’s just a different mindset.

[BOTH]: Again, no, for sure.

Dev Patel: I think it gets [00:49:50] I mean, I’m sure you’ve had ups and downs over the years, but it gets a bit lonely and it eventually like, you know, you’ve got [00:49:55] three takes. You know, everyone since Chester, they don’t really see what you go through and all the stresses and pains. You know, [00:50:00] sometimes they’ve got much cash, they’ve got good cash. And like, they don’t see that all they see, they get paid and they do their job right. But [00:50:05] it’s it can be lonely. And I think that’s one of the reasons why as a model for partnership, you know, everyone’s [00:50:10] got different experiences. Some have, you know, been there for a long time and some have come in recently for the first practice. But, you [00:50:15] know, you’ve all been through the kind of same journey of running a practice now. And it’s it’s better to be together rather than on your own [00:50:20] and trying to figure out where you are. Right. Right. So, uh. That’s good. Technology has always been one of your passions. [00:50:25] Still is, even though you’re getting a bit older, you know, you’re still a technology expert, I would say. So, you [00:50:30] know, you’re one of the first users and, um, you know, some all the texts over the years. Tell me a bit [00:50:35] about like, you know, one, why you got passionate for dentistry in terms of the technology side of things. And what do you think [00:50:40] is the future for the next 5 or 6 years or ten years for dentistry?

Kailesh Solanki: For me, like tech’s always been something [00:50:45] that I am passionate about because, you know, I think that’s mentioned only around a computer business. [00:50:50] When I was young, I was super into computer, super into just like any, any bit of [00:50:55] tech. And the first person you see some new bit of tech on like Instagram or on some [00:51:00] on TikTok, I’d just.

[BOTH]: Buy it. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Oh it’s crap. You just come to the house and they’re looking, [00:51:05] I think I look.

[BOTH]: Shiny or.

Kailesh Solanki: I just, I’m just so interested.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:51:10]

Kailesh Solanki: And so when it came about, so interested. Like what? I make my own teeth in [00:51:15] a day, like for my patient. Amazing.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And then there’s some realities of it because, you know, [00:51:20] sometimes it’s quality issues and there’s this and none of things improve. And you know, so [00:51:25] for me, like tech now is essentially like what makes this run better.

[BOTH]: Yeah, more [00:51:30] efficient, more.

Kailesh Solanki: Efficient, allows me to reduce quarantines for patients but [00:51:35] allows me to keep quality.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And so yeah, 3D printers [00:51:40] now and scanners and all those kind of basic mod cons that I think a [00:51:45] dental practice should have and to create some restorations in-house to be [00:51:50] able to scan in-house without taking impressions and all these different things. Amazing. [00:51:55] Yeah. You know, dentistry is definitely progressed now with that. And I think people [00:52:00] aren’t doing that. They’re missing a trick.

[BOTH]: Really? Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, but then equally, you [00:52:05] know, I think like moving forward like where’s dentistry going to take us. You know, we hear now of like [00:52:10] robot robotic dentistry, you know, which is becoming you know quite I’m [00:52:15] not saying popular but it’s definitely He created some steam and some some lead clinicians [00:52:20] that we’ve spoken about and now heavily investing in that sort of tech and and [00:52:25] seeing where that’s going to take them.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And I’m not saying these robots are going to replace us.

Dev Patel: No, it’ll [00:52:30] be, I think, more scalable to get the quality higher, because no matter how good we are on your best day or worst [00:52:35] day, there’s probably about millimetres, two minutes of difference, right. And depending on where the implant goes. Whereas if you get a robot doing exactly [00:52:40] the same every single time, we still control it. But it’s the same as the way you look at it. If you look at DaVinci [00:52:45] in terms of, you know, medical kind of surgery, you can be in Australia controlling a machine that’s doing [00:52:50] a surgery in Italy, right? And that’s just, you know, the kind of level of scalability that you can have these days rather [00:52:55] than I always think it’s dentist. Our most important role is to communication and the trust. Right. [00:53:00] If we can do those two things with patients, the rest of it can be done by something else or someone else.

Kailesh Solanki: And I think there’s always [00:53:05] going to be you’re always going to have that niche market of the patient wanting to see a specific [00:53:10] person because they’re an artist.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And, you know, the robot will never take away the artist, right? [00:53:15]

[BOTH]: For sure.

Kailesh Solanki: It’ll I never take away kind of what we what we have in our hearts and what [00:53:20] we what we produce. But ultimately, like you said, certain things, certain [00:53:25] aspects of dentistry, if it is a robotic, robotic [00:53:30] size or whatever you want to call it, if it’s done in that fashion. I just think, like I said, the quality [00:53:35] will always be maintained. And so I don’t think it’s a catch all.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.

Kailesh Solanki: I [00:53:40] definitely think dentists will go that way.

[BOTH]: Cool.

Dev Patel: Um, and I think the last question is just [00:53:45] in terms of young dentists. So if you were 20 years ago, what would you be telling [00:53:50] yourself now in terms of recommendations, advice to be doing in this day and age?

Kailesh Solanki: I knew what I knew now. [00:53:55]

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: I think it’s just more, you know, it’s easy, isn’t it, when you get to this point [00:54:00] and you’ve had some ups and downs, you’ve had some issues and some problems and you treat your patients, you probably shouldn’t [00:54:05] OB, you treat patients, you should and all that kind of.

[BOTH]: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And you know we all make mistakes. [00:54:10] Yeah. And so how do you mitigate that. Like how do you reduce that risk, [00:54:15] I suppose, and the advice I would give to young dentists is I’m [00:54:20] not saying it’s primarily me, but find someone like me.

[BOTH]: Yeah. You know. Mentor.

Kailesh Solanki: Have a mentor. [00:54:25] Have someone that you can just bounce ideas off. Showcase treatment plans. [00:54:30] Go through different things. You’ve got an issue. Can you chat to someone you know? Do you [00:54:35] understand what you’re communicating? Yeah. You know, my biggest, I suppose, my [00:54:40] biggest bugbear with my clinician sometimes, [00:54:45] like, talk to me.

[BOTH]: Like.

Kailesh Solanki: If you were to discuss this case with me, I would have just said, actually, maybe [00:54:50] consider doing it like.

[BOTH]: This. Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, because you’ve gone around about it in, like, [00:54:55] a completely, completely wrong way. And, and, you know, and that’s fine for me to say [00:55:00] in a closed room because I’m saying that in front of the patient. I’m not saying that in front of in [00:55:05] to the to the dentist to, to upset them.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Just trying to get them to [00:55:10] understand like that. There’s a right way in the wrong way to do things, and I’ve done a lot the wrong way.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:55:15] yeah, yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: Do you know what I mean? And I still sometimes don’t get everything right, but I get the [00:55:20] majority, right? Because I made the mistakes previously. So I’m here to. So you don’t have to.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:55:25]

Kailesh Solanki: And so the mentorship about scheme, whatever you want to call it is [00:55:30] the key I think to a clinician growing.

[BOTH]: Yeah for sure.

Kailesh Solanki: Like [00:55:35] you said you can go on every course in the world. I did you did, um, learn [00:55:40] from some of the best people. Yeah. And that’s great. And you can take a lot of that home, but [00:55:45] a lot of it is just theory.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And when you’re in the chair and the patients struggle [00:55:50] in and you’re doing what you’re doing, how far does that theory take you?

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:55:55] Yeah. For sure.

Kailesh Solanki: You know. And the practical aspects of what we do on a day to day basis, I believe are super [00:56:00] important. And how do you negotiate that and how do you improve that? [00:56:05] And so for me my advice find a mental [00:56:10] mentor. Find someone that you that will help you. That will be your comfort blanket that will allow [00:56:15] you to do treatments you want to do in a really controlled environment.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Dev Patel: Now, [00:56:20] I think that’s great advice. And I think it’s a it’s more and more important now where they’re learning less and less at university [00:56:25] level because they’re coming out with one crown experience or maybe one filling. And they say, I’m dentist now, right? And [00:56:30] then you’ve got literally no experience after because you’re just doing kind of, you know, NHS work.

[BOTH]: And all. [00:56:35]

Dev Patel: The stuff, which is not going to help you. So it’s so important right now to get.

[BOTH]: It’s.

Kailesh Solanki: So important. And the other thing that we [00:56:40] forget to mention is everyone’s scared in their own shadow nowadays. Yeah, because of the litigation [00:56:45] issues. And, you know, being a heavily litigated profession, no one wants to do anything. [00:56:50]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: You know, so they see a patient and they see a tooth and they like scratching their head. And they’re giving [00:56:55] that patient a thousand options for that one, too, because they don’t want to miss an option out because they’ll get litigated. [00:57:00] And then they don’t want to do the treatment because they’ll probably get litigated. And then if it goes wrong, [00:57:05] they’ll get litigated. And even if it goes right in 20 years later, they’ll get this again. So they’re [00:57:10] so scared.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: And you’ve got to. You’ve got to kind of educate the dentist. Like, listen. [00:57:15] We’re here to treat patients.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: The rest is unfortunately, a [00:57:20] good and a bad of what we do.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Kailesh Solanki: But you’re there to treat patients who treat the patient, right? And [00:57:25] 95% of the time, they’ll thank you for it. They’ll trust you and you won’t. [00:57:30] And you’ll keep another patient. So just be a good person. Be ethical. Just treat [00:57:35] people.

Dev Patel: This is not, um, you know, intended in any way. Just words on the spot. But I always say [00:57:40] to everybody in our team, not even just in dentistry, but we’ve been, you know, our shared service centre. Just keep it [00:57:45] stupid and simple, which is kiss. Yeah, that’s literally what it’s about. You just keep it really simple. Don’t [00:57:50] overthink it. Don’t tell the patient a hundred different options for, like, one filling. Like, just keep it simple. Right. And then they’re [00:57:55] human beings that understand it, and that’d be.

[BOTH]: Good for them. What I think you should do.

Dev Patel: Yeah. But I think that’s one of your, [00:58:00] um, really one of your super strengths in terms of making a really complicated treatment plan of, like, implants [00:58:05] and veneers and this and that reason for the patients understand and they get.

[BOTH]: It right.

Kailesh Solanki: And they go, oh yeah that sounds [00:58:10] that I get that. And I said, do you understand what I’m.

[BOTH]: Going to do. Yeah, yeah I do.

Kailesh Solanki: Okay, cool.

[BOTH]: That’s great.

Dev Patel: That’s what [00:58:15] I.

[BOTH]: Tell you anyway. Let’s do.

Dev Patel: It. Cool man. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it man. And yeah thanks.

[VOICE]: This [00:58:20] is Dental Leaders the podcast where [00:58:25] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:58:30] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:58:35]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [00:58:40] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [00:58:45] and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [00:58:50] value out of it.

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